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Love, Loss and the Meaning of Suffering (Dr. Peter Kreeft) | Ep. 587 — Transcript

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0:00How long were you married?
0:01>> 63 years, I think. In fact, all my
0:05children and all their descendants and
0:06all that they do for the world would not
0:08have existed except for a crick in the
0:10neck of my friend Sam. Usually, she was
0:13right and I was wrong.
0:14That tendency to say in marriage, I'm
0:18right and you're wrong. That's
0:19terrifying because if I'm right, you're
0:21wrong is your fallback position and you
0:24say that to God.
0:27>> Are there things in your marriage and in
0:29your fatherhood that you
0:30>> [music]
0:31>> regret having done poorly?
0:33>> Oh, of course. Nothing could be more
0:34tragic than the death of your spouse.
0:36That's your other half.
0:37>> We feel like we're becoming [music] the
0:39same person.
0:40>> And I've often thought that if she were
0:42to die, a big chunk of me wouldn't exist
0:44anymore.
0:44>> Of course. You are what you love. All
0:47things work together for good to those
0:49who love God. What I felt and what I
0:51believed were were two different worlds
0:53and I had to choose between them.
0:55>> What advice do you have someone watching
0:56this who's [music] newly married or who
0:58is about to be?
0:59>> The last, uh,
1:01>> [sighs]
1:02[snorts]
1:02>> view I had of my wife about an hour
1:05after she died,
1:06uh, I fell in love with her again.
1:10Here is a a wasted, emaciated, uh,
1:13wrinkled, suffering body.
1:15It's as beautiful as a crucifix.
1:24>> [music]
1:30>> Do you remember when you were in my
1:32studio in Steubenville?
1:34>> Mhm.
1:35>> I think I said, I think you said, "Pints
1:37with Aquinas, where's the pints?"
1:39And I brought out a beer that according
1:41to you was an abomination.
1:43>> Mhm.
1:43>> It was a peanut butter beer. Do you
1:45remember that?
1:46>> I do. I do.
1:47>> You made that same face.
1:48>> I thought it was a chocolate beer.
1:50>> Yeah, no, peanut butter.
1:51>> Oh.
1:52>> Yeah. So, anyway, I have a Yuengling in
1:53there for you. Is that manly enough?
1:55>> Yuengling Yuengling is fine.
1:56>> Yeah.
1:57>> Yuengling is fine.
1:57>> Or can also do Scotch.
1:59Or we can mix them.
2:01No, I don't think we should mix them. Do
2:03you like Lagavulin?
2:05>> Never tried it.
2:06>> Oh, I'm come on. You're 152. How have
2:09you never tried this?
2:10>> Let me try a little bit.
2:12>> How old How old are you?
2:14>> 89.
2:15>> God bless you.
2:17>> He has.
2:17>> Yeah, wait. I got to cheers you first.
2:19This is an honor to be able to have a
2:20drink with you. Yeah.
2:22Slàinte.
2:23>> This is why This is why Scotland exists.
2:27>> To produce Scotch.
2:28>> Of course.
2:29>> That'll do.
2:31>> Mhm.
2:34>> Now, some people like the peat. Some
2:35people don't. So,
2:37>> I do. I like I like
2:39>> it.
2:39>> I like the peat. I love uh
2:42single malts with a lot of peat.
2:45>> I heard from a fella in Nova Scotia that
2:48they would say they'd be sitting around
2:50a fire and they'd bust open a bottle of
2:52Scotch. They'd take the cork and they'd
2:54throw it into the fire
2:56as a sort of challenge, you know, like
2:57we're going to finish this tonight. I
2:59like that.
3:00>> Like Cortez burning his ships.
3:02>> [laughter]
3:03>> Exactly.
3:05Yeah. Well, thank you for Thank you for
3:07making the trip down.
3:09Well, I don't want to start on a
3:12Debbie Downer now, but I do want to do
3:13want to acknowledge the fact that your
3:15your good wife recently
3:17went on to her reward.
3:18>> Yes.
3:19>> I remember asking you, I said, "What's
3:21the difference between you and your
3:22wife?" And you said,
3:24"Well,
3:25I'm Dutch
3:27and patient and she's Italian and
3:29impatient."
3:29>> Mhm.
3:30>> That was the first thing you said.
3:32How long were you married?
3:33>> 63 years, I think.
3:37Uh it was it was
3:39>> [sighs and gasps]
3:40>> a remarkable marriage in its beginning,
3:42in its
3:43continuation, and in its end.
3:45Uh
3:47it started with
3:49a crick in a neck.
3:51And and fact, all my children and all
3:54their descendants and all that they do
3:55for the world would not have existed
3:57except for a crick in the neck of my
3:59friend Sam,
4:01uh who I went to Calvin College with. He
4:03was 1 year behind me.
4:04>> [snorts]
4:05>> I had graduated in 1959
4:08uh and was in New Jersey uh
4:11and he uh phoned me from New York City.
4:14He said um
4:16Pete, I uh got a job in New York for the
4:19summer
4:20and I met this girl and she has a nice
4:21friend. Let's go on a double date. So,
4:23we did.
4:24And uh Sam's date was uh uh Maria, whom
4:28I eventually married. And my date was
4:30very nice, but no sparks. But, Maria was
4:32was beautiful and intelligent and very
4:35funny.
4:36Uh and he went back to Calvin and I
4:38[clears throat] went to Yale.
4:39Uh and he wrote me a letter saying, "Uh
4:41remember that girl, Maria? Uh I'm trying
4:44to keep the romance going. But, um
4:46you're a better writer than I am. Uh why
4:48don't you write her a note about about
4:50me?"
4:51>> [laughter]
4:51>> Uh at that time I was discerning a
4:53vocation. I thought I wanted to become a
4:54Dominican.
4:55>> Hang on. Hang on. Write a note about me.
4:57What does that mean?
4:59>> [sighs and gasps]
4:59>> Well,
5:02tell Maria how good a guy Sam is.
5:04>> Oh, from you though. On your behalf.
5:06Okay. I see.
5:08>> Uh
5:08this sounds like Cyrano de Bergerac, but
5:11I had no intentions of romance at the
5:13time. So, I I wrote uh a note to Maria.
5:16Uh I said, "Sam is a uh
5:19a smart and and sort of weird guy. What
5:22do you see in him that you don't see in
5:24the other uh uh guys in your college?"
5:27Uh and she wrote back uh saying, "Uh
5:29since I go to an all-girls college, I
5:31think you can answer that question
5:32yourself."
5:33>> [laughter]
5:33>> So, she invited me to come down and meet
5:35her mother.
5:36>> Whoa. Whoa. Whoa. Why [clears throat]
5:38would she invite you to come down and
5:39meet her mother?
5:41>> Because uh Sam was still involved in
5:45that
5:46uh
5:47and her mother [clears throat] was the
5:49one that got Sam a job in a restaurant
5:52when he was waiting for a bus to go back
5:54to Calvin College um because he couldn't
5:57find a job and the bus was late. So, he
6:00turned his neck to look in one direction
6:02at the employment agency, which he had
6:04tried for 5 days in a row without any
6:06success.
6:08And uh
6:09it hurt. So, he got a cricket in his
6:10neck and he turned in the other
6:11direction and he saw a restaurant and
6:12said, "I've got an hour to waste." He
6:14goes into the restaurant. As he enters
6:16the door, the bus boy is being kicked
6:18out
6:19um
6:20because his hand was in the till.
6:22So, um Sam was enterprising and he got
6:24the job as a waiter in the restaurant
6:27and he met the um what's it called? The
6:29head waitress there, who was Maria's
6:31mother
6:32and um made friends with her and she
6:34invited him home and that's how he met
6:35Maria.
6:36>> Okay.
6:37>> Uh
6:38and
6:39uh
6:41I
6:42>> But why did she invite you to come meet
6:44your mother?
6:46>> [sighs and gasps]
6:47>> I had other things to do in New York.
6:50Uh and it was just a spur of the moment
6:52thing and I think she remembered me and
6:55she said, "This is an interesting guy.
6:57Why not uh invite him home?"
6:59>> Fair enough.
6:59>> Now, I'm
7:01I'm an absent-minded professor. Uh I'm
7:03not good at anything except writing.
7:06I'm an only child. I come from a very
7:07quiet Dutch family, sort of like
7:09American Gothic.
7:11Uh and Maria is uh
7:14a a New Yorker. Typical New Yorker. Uh
7:16happy, loudmouth, big family, wild
7:19family, crazy family,
7:21uh very good food. We're a square peg in
7:23a round hole.
7:25So, there was no thought of romance at
7:26the first. It was just friendship.
7:29But friendship blossomed and Sam's
7:31romance with my ex-girlfriend at Calvin
7:33College declined.
7:35Uh and eventually I was faced with the
7:37question, well, this
7:39girl, Maria, whom I
7:42was falling in love with,
7:44uh
7:44could be a vocation and to be a
7:47Dominican is also a vocation. Which
7:49vocation do I want?
7:51>> [gasps]
7:51>> Uh
7:52and Maria had already
7:54dated two boys
7:56uh
7:57uh in her neighborhood, both of whom
7:58became priests. And she thought I was
8:00going to become one, too.
8:02Uh and then I said to myself, all right,
8:04but
8:05God, where do you want me to to be?
8:08And he said it, well, there's two kinds
8:09of father.
8:10And I want you to be the other kind.
8:12Follow your heart. And I did.
8:15So, I married her. At that time, she was
8:17my godmother because she was the only
8:19Catholic girl I knew when I got baptized
8:22uh into the Catholic Church.
8:23>> At what age?
8:24>> At age 21 at Yale.
8:28Uh so, I asked her to be my godmother.
8:30Uh and she joked with the priest, what
8:32if I fall in love with this guy?
8:34Uh can you marry your godmother? He
8:35said, what's this priest said, no,
8:36that's spiritual incest. You have to
8:38have a special dispensation from the
8:39Pope.
8:40And it's it's still on the books, but
8:43it's automatic.
8:44So, a year later we go to the same
8:46priest and say, yeah, couldn't you get
8:47that dispensation [laughter] for us? So,
8:48I married my godmother.
8:49>> That's a riot.
8:52>> So, years [snorts] ago a husband and a
8:54wife in Lithuania sent me one of their
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9:01every detail. It was seriously the most
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9:34confirmation gift, or for graduation.
9:37Now, the first batch sold out right
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9:43before the next batch is gone. That's
9:45dailywire.com/shop.
9:47>> It was [snorts] like every marriage, a
9:49blend of joys and sorrows.
9:52But,
9:53when she died, I felt that
9:57I've written over 100 books, and the
9:58most important book I ever wrote was my
10:00marriage. That was my primary vocation.
10:03She has been the best thing in my life.
10:06Most important thing in my life. And we
10:08finished the book.
10:09And it has been a success. The round peg
10:11and the square hole
10:13met, and they married, and although we
10:16had a lot of ups and downs, we ended on
10:18a high note.
10:20And the book went home to the printer.
10:22>> Mhm.
10:23>> So, I remember riding home in the car
10:25from the nursing home where she died.
10:28And of course, I was weeping.
10:30And suddenly,
10:32God reminded me that this was a triumph.
10:35This was not a
10:37a defeat.
10:39And I said, "Hey, kiddo, we made it."
10:42And the tears turned into wild laughter.
10:45>> Mhm.
10:46>> And if anybody'd heard me in the car,
10:47they would have thought I was being
10:48either tortured or or having sex.
10:51>> [laughter]
10:52>> But, it's a triumph.
10:54It's it's Of course, death is a tragedy.
10:58And nothing could be more tragic than
10:59the death of your spouse. That's your
11:00other half.
11:02And yet, it was
11:03a tremendous success. A wonderful
11:05success.
11:07>> Well, I've only been married 20 years,
11:09but I would say I'm getting to the point
11:11where
11:12we feel like we're becoming the same
11:14person.
11:15>> Yes.
11:16>> And I've often thought that if she were
11:17to die,
11:19a part I know that sounds so cliché, but
11:21I think we clearly know what I mean. I
11:22feel like
11:24a big chunk of me wouldn't exist
11:25anymore.
11:26>> Of course, that's you.
11:27>> So, almost like I need her in a selfish
11:28way. Like I need her the way I need me,
11:30cuz she's becoming me.
11:31>> there's two concepts of the self.
11:33There's the common sense one, which in
11:34this case is wrong, and then there's the
11:37the more sophisticated psychological
11:39one. You are what you love.
11:41You're not just what's inside your
11:43epidermis.
11:45You're not just a sum total of
11:46attributes.
11:48You are what you love.
11:49And if the one that you love more than
11:51you love yourself dies, then the biggest
11:53part of you is dead.
11:57>> [sighs]
11:57>> Uh
11:59it's it's like losing a limb. More like
12:01more than losing a limb.
12:05>> [sighs]
12:06>> So, it's it's the worst thing, but it's
12:08also the best thing. It's the best thing
12:09you you could possibly do.
12:11>> Mhm.
12:13>> Uh I deeply love and respect priests,
12:16but I think they have it easy.
12:18>> [laughter]
12:20>> Their life is simple.
12:22>> I you'll find this funny. Everyone else
12:24will be offended by it. But, I'll tell
12:26you this. My wife and I were going
12:27through a difficult time. She was very
12:28sick for a long time, and it was just a
12:30real strain on our marriage.
12:33And I bumped into this Franciscan, and I
12:35shared something with him. You know,
12:37sometimes you say something very honest,
12:38and the other person doesn't receive it,
12:40and then you feel alone.
12:41>> Yeah. Yeah.
12:42>> I said to him, "I want to go out to the
12:44front of every seminary and every
12:46monastery and say, 'The sex isn't worth
12:49it.'"
12:50>> [laughter]
12:52>> And he didn't laugh, and I just thought,
12:54"I've shared too much. I'm going to
12:56leave."
12:56>> [laughter]
13:00>> But, if you mean by sex something more
13:03than just the physical biological act,
13:06it is worth it.
13:08That a man and a woman can marry is a
13:10bit like
13:11a bird and a fish marrying.
13:14Two different species.
13:17It's a triumph.
13:18>> Mhm.
13:19>> Chesterton has an essay about that. He
13:21says, "It's ridiculous that people get
13:23divorced for incompatibility.
13:25These two species are incompatible by
13:27nature, and God has put them together,
13:29and it's a miracle. Every marriage is a
13:31miracle.
13:32>> Oop.
13:32>> And that is
13:33>> you?
13:34>> That is something I have to talk to you
13:35about.
13:36>> Okay. What is
13:36>> Because that's very significant.
13:41>> This is a fun for those at home. We are
13:42100% keeping this in unless Dr. Craze
13:45tells me to take it out.
13:53>> That sound of my cell phone reminds me
13:56of a minor miracle that I received uh
14:00a week or two ago during the wake.
14:03The priest was uh praying over uh
14:05Maria's coffin
14:07uh for a few moments uh and my cell
14:10phone went off. I was sitting in the
14:11front row at the wake, and I was very
14:13embarrassed because I am absent-minded
14:15and I forget such things as cell phones.
14:17So, I pulled it out of my pocket, and
14:19it's a flip phone,
14:20and you can't push any buttons on it
14:22until you open it and you see the
14:24screen. And I opened it, and the screen
14:26said, "Mom."
14:28Now,
14:31we have speed dial on uh my cell phone,
14:34which means that once I press uh a
14:37number and hold it for a second, I get
14:39that number, and it's labeled on the
14:41screen who it is. It's Mom or John or
14:44Jenny or somebody else in the family and
14:46the number
14:47uh
14:48>> [sighs]
14:49>> that uh that had called me.
14:52And uh this was a number that uh Maria
14:55had had on her cell phone 10 years ago,
14:58and she couldn't master the cell phone,
15:02so we sent it back. I can't master a
15:04cell phone, either.
15:05>> [snorts]
15:05>> Uh
15:06and retired the number. This was over 10
15:08years ago. So, that number didn't exist
15:10for 10 years. That number called me at
15:13the wake.
15:15>> How was that?
15:16>> It was from heaven.
15:17>> Okay.
15:18>> [laughter]
15:19>> It couldn't It couldn't possibly be
15:20anything else. I called the number, and
15:22the and and the operator the um
15:24voice said, "This number has been
15:26retired for like 12 years."
15:30>> Wow.
15:31>> So,
15:32>> That's a nice gift.
15:34>> Well, Maria was always a mover and
15:35shaker. She did things. She accomplished
15:37things. She helped There's going to be a
15:39long long line in heaven of people who
15:41were helped by her.
15:43She got her mother a Section 8 when she
15:46was mugged in New York and she couldn't
15:47afford it
15:49to to get a house and we got a
15:51house that day for her across the
15:53street. And we let her live there for
15:57free until until she died and then we
15:59made some money on on selling the house
16:01even though we didn't charge her mother
16:03my mother-in-law rent.
16:05So, that's the kind of person Maria was.
16:07She She got things done. So, even from
16:09heaven,
16:10she's
16:11pushing people around and getting things
16:13done. New Yorkers are like that. They're
16:15wonderful.
16:17>> I remember reading a Grief Observed and
16:19after the first page,
16:22I haven't lost my wife, of course, but
16:23after the first page just having to
16:25excuse myself.
16:27>> That is the best That is the best book
16:29on grief that I've ever read.
16:32>> So, have you read that?
16:33>> Oh, I've read it many times.
16:35>> Since Maria has died?
16:36>> Many Well, I haven't read it since Maria
16:38has died because the tears would come
16:40again.
16:40>> Yeah.
16:42There's a line in there though where he
16:43says, "I'm afraid." How does he put
16:45this? That his memories of her will
16:48somehow alter who she actually was.
16:50>> Like snowflakes on a bell.
16:52You can't hear the bell.
16:54The the snowflakes come from you and the
16:56bell is her.
16:59>> I mean, I I do that with my wife even
17:01when I'm away from her for a while.
17:02>> Of course.
17:03>> [laughter]
17:03>> Of course. I've done that with you.
17:05>> Yeah.
17:06>> Is that Is that Matt? Do I remember him
17:07that badly?
17:08>> Yeah. [laughter]
17:10But I the point was he was afraid of
17:12romanticizing her.
17:13>> Yeah.
17:14>> Canonizing her as it were.
17:16>> That was hard to do because uh Joy
17:18Davidson was a lot like Maria Krave. A
17:21New Yorker
17:22uh who told it like it is
17:24and who couldn't stand baloney.
17:27And uh Lewis loved it and I loved it.
17:29>> Yeah.
17:30>> One of the great things about Maria was
17:31that she would always detect baloney in
17:33me.
17:34That made me a much better writer.
17:37>> Can I ask you Okay, you were married
17:39over 60 years, you said.
17:40>> Yeah.
17:42>> What was the most difficult part of your
17:44marriage? And I don't mean towards the
17:45end. We can speak about that more, but I
17:47mean, you know, just through raising
17:49children. Was there a Was there a point
17:51in your marriage where you thought
17:53I regret this or this might end?
17:56>> No.
17:57No, I never regretted it.
17:59Uh
18:00there was a lot of suffering. We had
18:02four kids in 6 years with no help.
18:04And there was a lot of exhaustion.
18:07And there was a lot of purely physical
18:08Oh, I give up. I can't take it anymore.
18:10>> Yeah.
18:11>> Even though we had good kids and and
18:13basically healthy kids.
18:14Uh probably the biggest trauma was the
18:16other miracle, the bigger miracle that
18:18we got. Our youngest daughter
18:20uh at the age of five was diagnosed as
18:22having uh a
18:24fatal brain tumor.
18:27Uh
18:27and at the operation, after we
18:30had many people praying over her, uh a
18:33miracle happened and the Well, there it
18:36is again.
18:40>> [music]
18:44>> At five years old, uh she started uh
18:46slipping and stumbling.
18:48And the pediatrician examined her in the
18:51eyes, saw the pressure, and said,
18:53"Instantly go to Boston General uh to
18:55Mass General Hospital."
18:57Uh
18:58and she was operated on uh and the CAT
19:02scan showed a medulloblastoma, which is
19:06a malignant tumor.
19:08Uh
19:09it's not It's
19:10>> [laughter]
19:11>> so far into the brain that it it's
19:13probably impossible to get all of it
19:14out, but you can get some of it out and
19:16you can extend the life
19:17from like 6 months to 12 months.
19:20But the prognosis was no more than 12
19:21months of life for
19:24So after a lot of people praying and
19:26um
19:27one of them a
19:28priest with the the ministry of faith
19:31healing in Boston
19:33uh at the operation uh the surgeon who
19:36was an atheist uh but a darn good
19:39surgeon said, "I don't understand this.
19:41Uh there must be some mistake. This is a
19:44a totally different kind of tumor. It's
19:46a juvenile astrocytoma. It's quite
19:48operable. We can get it all out and it's
19:50not malignant."
19:51And they got it all out and she's fine
19:53now. She's in her 50s.
19:55>> Mhm.
19:56>> Uh
19:58we
19:59were not allowed to see the medical
20:01report, so we stole it briefly and then
20:03put it back. And the surgeon said, "I
20:07have no explanation for this.
20:09>> Wow.
20:09>> And three or four tests, this is the
20:11right cat scan, this is the right
20:12person, this is what happened. Uh have
20:15no idea.
20:16Question mark, question mark, question
20:18mark.
20:18>> Mhm.
20:18>> So we had a miracle.
20:20>> All right, but no no
20:22no major difficulties within your
20:24marriage?
20:25>> Well, when we thought that she was going
20:28to die within 12 months, that was an
20:30enormous difficulty.
20:31>> I mean it's an enormous difficulty, but
20:33did it put strain on your marriage and
20:34how?
20:35Apart from the obvious.
20:36>> The strain on our marriage I think was
20:39was
20:40a kind of ongoing
20:42physical and psychological differences.
20:47I mean I describe the two of us the
20:48round hole and the square peg.
20:51Uh and we always loved and respected
20:52each other, but we argued a lot.
20:55>> [sighs]
20:55>> Uh
20:57I've written over 100 books. Only only
20:59one of them she helped me write, the one
21:01on angels because she was she
21:03deeply devoted to the angels.
21:05>> Mhm.
21:05>> Uh and she didn't so much write it as
21:08unwrite it. You don't have to say this.
21:10You're repeating yourself. This is too
21:12preachy, etc. When I sent it to the
21:14publisher, Ignatius Press, they said,
21:17Father Fessio was the
21:19head of it then, um
21:21this is your fifth book. How come your
21:22style improved so much?
21:24>> [laughter]
21:25>> It was because Maria helped me, right?
21:26>> told her that.
21:28Or did you?
21:28>> So, I No, I I I've told her that, of
21:30course.
21:31So, I've got a non-baloney style because
21:34my wife had a non-baloney style. It It
21:36helped my writing.
21:37>> I find that arguing within marriage can
21:39be good so long as we respect the other
21:42person, hey? And we we argue with love.
21:44There's been times in my marriage where
21:45I haven't done that. I think the most
21:47difficult time in my marriage we were
21:48driving to a wedding and we got into
21:50this fight that was seemed
21:52insurmountable and and ugly, actually.
21:55Bitter. We weren't shouting, you
21:57understand, but just like
21:59I remember, this was like 10 years into
22:01marriage, I remember being in the car
22:03and realizing
22:05oh, this marriage is not
22:07unbreakable.
22:10Now, thank God that
22:11that that was that was a real low point
22:14and it's not ongoing, but was there a
22:16time like that for you? I mean, as
22:18Catholics we understand that divorce is
22:19impossible. And we want to have the
22:21whole thing together.
22:21>> were dating, one of our favorite movies
22:23was Divorce Italian Style.
22:26>> [laughter]
22:26>> It was a
22:27>> [clears throat]
22:27>> a comedy
22:28>> Okay.
22:29>> about a man who wanted to divorce his
22:30wife, but divorce was not allowed for
22:32any reason in Italy at the time. So, he
22:35had to hire a mafia hitman to murder
22:37her.
22:37>> Oh, did you So, murder
22:38>> murder equals divorce Italian style.
22:40>> Right, I get it.
22:41>> Well, the movie was funny because uh
22:43>> Your wife's Italian.
22:44>> Well, yeah.
22:45>> [laughter]
22:45>> And the mafia [clears throat] hitman
22:47um
22:48continually found other women that he
22:50thought was the the victim and executed
22:53almost everybody else in the apartment
22:54building, but the one that he was
22:56supposed to execute survived. But, what
22:58was so funny about it was that we both
23:00agreed, Maria and I, that murder is much
23:03more reasonable than divorce. So, if we
23:05don't have any lethal weapons in the
23:06house, we're going to we're going to
23:08survive. And we've never had lethal
23:10weapons. So, we have survived.
23:14>> But you Okay, so you never got to a
23:15point though where you thought
23:17this could break.
23:18>> Oh, we we had shouting arguments, of
23:19course.
23:21>> That's good. That's what I want to get
23:22to. I want to get to that real stuff.
23:23>> The family that fights together stays
23:25together.
23:26>> One of the reasons I love It's a
23:27Wonderful Life so much is it it really
23:29does depict the rawness [clears throat]
23:31of what sometimes happens behind closed
23:33doors within the family.
23:35>> It doesn't sugarcoat
23:36>> the doors are closed.
23:37>> Yeah.
23:39Yeah.
23:40>> Of course, you you expect that. That's
23:41part of the deal.
23:45>> Yeah. To my point earlier, I feel like
23:47it's I couldn't I couldn't There's a
23:49comedian who says, "If my wife ever
23:51leaves me, I'm going with her."
23:53>> [laughter]
23:54>> Great line.
23:55>> Yeah, isn't that great?
23:56>> Great line.
23:57>> Yeah. I feel like that about She
23:58wouldn't
23:59uh but uh I just love her so much.
24:02>> The last thing
24:03>> [sighs and gasps]
24:03>> Maria said that was totally
24:06rational and clear and free before
24:10uh
24:11she [snorts]
24:12moved into the hospice nursing home
24:14uh with uh dementia that was
24:18visible
24:19uh to the nurse. Uh I promised her I'd
24:22never
24:22put her in a nursing home because most
24:24nursing homes are are terrible places.
24:27Uh and she said to her nurse, uh "I
24:30think I have to go to a nursing home
24:32because Peter is so stressed out
24:35that uh that he can't take it anymore."
24:38Uh for for a year uh for over a year, I
24:41was her only caregiver, and she was
24:44incontinent and and and partly paralyzed
24:47and bedridden.
24:47>> Mhm.
24:48>> Uh and she was tough, and she'd never
24:53I won't say she never complained, but uh
24:55she said, "This is This is my fate. I'll
24:57I'll do it." That
24:59>> [sighs and gasps]
25:00>> That act of of charity
25:02uh
25:04in the mouth of a
25:06uh of a New Yorker who uh
25:10wasn't terribly subtle or sweet or
25:13compassionate. That was That was
25:16special.
25:17>> To say for her to say that to the nurse,
25:18you mean?
25:18>> Yes. Yes.
25:20And so, uh we called hospice in, and the
25:23last uh couple of weeks of her life were
25:25were quite peaceful and quite um
25:29blessed. Hospice is wonderful.
25:31>> Did she process with you what it was
25:33like knowing that she was going to die?
25:36>> Oh, yes. Oh, yes. She said, "I want to
25:38die. I'm ready to die."
25:39>> Mhm.
25:41>> She was a
25:43>> [sighs and gasps]
25:43>> She was an activist, and to be bedridden
25:45as an activist
25:47is awful.
25:48>> Mhm.
25:49>> I mean, I was I was exhausted. I was
25:51suffering, but not nearly as much as she
25:52was. I would I exchange places with her?
25:55No way.
25:56>> Mhm.
25:57>> Would I like to be in her situation? I'm
25:59not even an activist. Would I like to be
26:01paralyzed and bedridden and and not even
26:03able to
26:04to formulate thoughts sometimes?
26:07Horrible.
26:09Parkinson's is a is a very bad disease.
26:11There's no hope. There's no turning it
26:12back. No cure.
26:14>> [sighs]
26:15>> Did you despair at all during that time?
26:17>> Of course. Of course.
26:19I I complained to God.
26:21Uh
26:22I screamed into my pillow.
26:25And I went around the house kicking
26:27things. Yes.
26:29>> That's what cats are for.
26:31>> [laughter]
26:31>> No, you don't kick cats. You kick dogs.
26:33>> Cats will get you back while you sleep.
26:37Yeah.
26:39And then
26:40what do the platitudes do at that point,
26:42huh? When everything's just a big gaping
26:44black hole?
26:45>> Everything's going to be all right.
26:48Everything's not all right.
26:50But God makes bad wrong things right.
26:54The verse in scripture that I find the
26:56hardest to believe, but also the most
26:58blessed in believing, is Romans 8:28.
27:01All things work together for good
27:04to those who love God. All things, bad
27:06things, horrible things.
27:09Last year of my life was the most
27:11difficult and horrible of my life, but
27:12it's also the most blessed.
27:15The most grace-filled.
27:16>> Now, halfway through that year, if you
27:18knew that you would one day say this was
27:19the best year of my life, would you have
27:21slapped you? Like, would you have
27:23believed that it would have been at the
27:25time?
27:26>> I have a disconnect between my mind and
27:29my emotions.
27:31Uh
27:32and I experienced that disconnect when
27:34my daughter was diagnosed as having a
27:35fatal brain tumor.
27:37I I was surprised at the fact that I
27:40couldn't disbelieve. I couldn't
27:42entertain the notion that maybe God
27:43didn't love me. Maybe he didn't even
27:45exist.
27:45>> Yeah.
27:46>> That's so irrational that I that I
27:48couldn't entertain it. But my emotions
27:50weren't following me at all. My emotions
27:53were a
27:54uh a large iron ball in the pit of my
27:55stomach dragging me down into
27:57nothingness.
28:00So, it was the same thing here.
28:03You know, I what I felt and what I
28:04believed were were two different worlds,
28:07and I had to choose between them. So, I
28:08chose to believe what I believed, but I
28:10certainly didn't feel as if this was a
28:12blessing.
28:14>> Yeah.
28:14>> But it was.
28:16>> What's that story of the the dying man
28:18who to whom Mother Teresa may have said,
28:22"This is These are the kisses of Jesus."
28:24>> Yes.
28:24>> And he said, "Could you please ask him
28:26to stop kissing me?"
28:27>> [laughter]
28:28>> That's like the my favorite Jewish joke.
28:31A pious rabbi dies, goes to heaven, and
28:34God says, "I'll answer any one question
28:36that you have."
28:37Uh and the rabbi says, "Is it true that
28:39we, the Jews, are your chosen people?"
28:41And God says, "Yes." "May I ask one more
28:43question, please?" "No." "Well, then I
28:46would I I I I would have a request.
28:48Would you please choose somebody else
28:49from now on?
28:53All the saints say that
28:55suffering is a blessing.
28:58Uh St. Faustina says if the angels were
29:00capable of envy, they would envy us two
29:03things,
29:04Holy Communion and suffering.
29:08God turns evil into good.
29:10Look what he did 2,000 years ago, the
29:11worst evil that ever happened, the
29:13crucifixion.
29:15The worst pain and the worst sin that
29:16ever happened, and that's our salvation.
29:21That's our identity.
29:23That's written in our lives, too. That's
29:25the plot of every human life.
29:29>> Can you understand it without going
29:30through it?
29:31>> No. No.
29:32No. You might get an A on a theology
29:34test, but you don't really understand
29:36it. You don't stand under it.
29:38When you stand under [clears throat] a
29:39tree, the stuff in the tree falls on
29:41you, and you become part of the tree.
29:44When you just hover over it in a
29:45helicopter and make a a philosophical or
29:47scientific picture of it, that's not
29:49understanding it. That's overstanding
29:51it.
29:53>> I think a lot [snorts] of us
29:53overcomplicate prayer. We imagine that
29:56every prayer time should feel profound,
29:58that we should emerge from it with some
30:00deep spiritual insight or mystical
30:02experience. Maybe we should levitate.
30:05But honestly, most prayer isn't
30:06dramatic. It's faithfulness. It's
30:08showing up. It's sitting quietly before
30:10God, whether you feel anything or not.
30:12And that's one reason I really
30:14appreciate Hallow. The app makes prayer
30:16simple. If you've never prayed the
30:18rosary before, it'll walk you through
30:19it. If you've always wanted to try
30:21Lectio Divina, but didn't know where to
30:23begin, it'll guide you. If you have 5
30:25minutes before work, there's a prayer
30:27for that. If you're lying awake at
30:29night, there are sleep prayers and
30:30meditations. It removes the friction
30:33that often keeps us from praying in the
30:34first place. And sometimes that's
30:36exactly what we need, uh not a better
30:38excuse, but an easier beginning. I have
30:42been using Hallow for years now, as has
30:45my wife. It's something we keep coming
30:47back to because it's so beautiful and so
30:49excellently produced and put together.
30:52>> [gasps]
30:52>> If you'd like to grow deeper in your
30:53relationship with God, visit
30:54hallow.com/mattfradd to get 3 months
30:57free. I can't stress that enough,
30:59people. That means you could try it for
31:002 and 1/2 months, decide to quit, and
31:02not get charged. That's incredible.
31:04hallow.com/mattfradd.
31:06Check it out. So, here's [snorts] a
31:08challenge. I want you to think about all
31:10the things you pay for automatically
31:11every month. Streaming services, music
31:14apps, cloud storage, phone service. Now,
31:16ask yourself this question. If I look
31:18closely at where all that money was
31:20going, would I be happy with the answer?
31:22Most of us never stop to think about it,
31:24and that's one reason Charity Mobile
31:26caught my attention because instead of
31:28simply paying another phone company,
31:30Charity Mobile lets you support
31:32organizations that are helping build a
31:34culture of life. You get the same
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31:46your bill goes directly to a pro-life or
31:48pro-family charity that you choose.
31:51It's one of those rare situations where
31:53switching providers actually allows you
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31:57charitymobile.com/mattfradd
32:00and use code mattfradd to get a free
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32:03activation and free shipping. That's
32:06charitymobile.com/mattfradd.
32:08Can [snorts] you tell me about one of
32:10your favorite dates that you ever went
32:12on with your wife?
32:14>> Yeah, we discovered Peter, Paul, and
32:16Mary before the world did. We spent a a
32:19summer
32:21in Martha's Vineyard, first year of our
32:22marriage.
32:23Uh and uh
32:26there was this little cafe called the
32:27Bitter End, and uh we saw a tiny little
32:31advertisement in the Village Voice, the
32:32local newspaper, saying, "I just
32:34discovered this great
32:36uh singing group that nobody's ever
32:39heard of before and they're going to be
32:40famous someday.
32:41So we went there and there were only
32:42about 10 people in the audience. It was
32:44a small place, not much bigger than
32:46this.
32:47And we [clears throat] said these guys
32:48are great and we've been following them
32:50ever since.
32:52So before they were famous we discovered
32:54them.
32:56>> Did she come with you to Japan? Of
32:58course she did. Your whole family went
32:59you said your child.
33:00>> No, well we had one child at the time.
33:02Yes, we went to Japan and that was a
33:05delightful experience
33:07and then an enlightening experience too.
33:11She was wearing a bright pink dress,
33:14beautiful dress and everybody looked at
33:16us and said to her,
33:18and the concierge of the hotel said
33:21you might want to say to your wife not
33:23to wear that dress in public because
33:24that advertises her as a prostitute.
33:26>> Oh.
33:28Thanks for the tip.
33:29>> Thanks for the tip, yes.
33:30>> And why was it cuz it was bright pink or
33:32cuz it was bright?
33:32>> It was a bright pink, yes.
33:36We carried our 1-year-old son
33:40on a jerry carrier which is
33:42like a backpack on my back and because
33:44I'm bigger and stronger than my wife I
33:46carried him and he had blonde hair and
33:49all these Japanese women
33:51had two reactions to that. Why
33:54and they said to my wife, why do you let
33:56him carry your your son? You are
33:58supposed to carry all the burdens.
34:00And look at that hair. It is gold. It is
34:02from heaven.
34:04>> [gasps and sighs]
34:05>> Are you missionaries?
34:06>> [laughter]
34:09>> And then we met some very old women who
34:11cast us aspersions because that was
34:12close after
34:14the end of the war. That was in the
34:17the
34:1860s or 1968
34:20and some of these old people still
34:22remembered Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
34:25And we
34:27Most of the people in Japan were
34:29wonderfully polite and and and and good
34:32but some are still fighting the war.
34:35>> Uh if I ask any questions that are
34:36insensitive, tell me to stop being
34:38weird. I really don't mean to, but can I
34:40ask some more questions about
34:41>> Absolutely.
34:42>> Okay.
34:42>> [snorts]
34:43>> Um
34:45you were you quite you were quite
34:47confident, were you, as to how much time
34:49you had left with her? Now, you knew
34:52that she was dying.
34:53>> Yes. Yes.
34:54And and uh frankly, I felt confused and
35:00and contradicting myself in
35:02>> [sighs and gasps]
35:02>> number one, wanting her to live, not to
35:05die, and number two, wanting her to die,
35:08not to live, because she wanted to die.
35:10In in the last uh couple of months,
35:12anyway. She knew she was dying, and she
35:15she said I I said once, "Can What can I
35:18do for you?"
35:18>> Mhm.
35:19>> She said, "Give me a new body." I said,
35:21"You'll have to wait until you meet God
35:22for that." [laughter]
35:23>> Anything else?
35:24>> Yes.
35:26So, on the one hand, I wanted her
35:28around. On the other hand, I wanted her
35:29freed from the cage.
35:34>> What What are some boring things that
35:36you would do with your wife that you
35:38know that you'll now miss?
35:44>> Boring things. Yes, walking up and down
35:47with uh
35:48with babies to try to get them to sleep.
35:50>> Mhm.
35:52>> Over and over and over again. It's
35:54exhausting.
35:55>> I bet you wouldn't have I bet you
35:57wouldn't have thought at the time
35:58>> I wouldn't have thought, "This is a
35:59blessing."
36:01>> I told you my
36:03time traveler thought experiment that
36:05helps me appreciate now, haven't I?
36:07>> No, tell me.
36:09>> I think to myself, sometimes I might be
36:11lying with a child in bed as they're
36:12trying to go to sleep, and I don't want
36:13to be there, you see? I want to be with
36:15my wife. I want to have a drink with
36:16her, read to her. I don't want to be
36:17here right now.
36:19And I think, "Okay, what if in the
36:21future, someone invents a time machine,
36:23and you can go back in time?"
36:25>> Ah.
36:25>> The only side effect is you don't
36:28remember that you've gone back in time.
36:31And then I think well maybe this is one
36:33of those times.
36:34And then I can appreciate it more.
36:35>> That's the plot at the end of one of
36:37C.S. Lewis's favorite science fiction
36:39novels, The Worm Ouroboros by E.R.
36:42Eddison.
36:42>> Really?
36:43>> Where the heroes have this wonderful
36:45heroic adventure and then it's over and
36:47their reward. So they go to a witch who
36:49has a time machine and they send them
36:50back 20 years before the adventure so
36:53they can have it over again.
36:54>> But they don't know that they
36:56>> They don't know that. They don't
36:57remember it. That's sort of like
36:59reincarnation.
37:00>> Yeah.
37:02>> God's got better plans than that.
37:04>> Yeah, but this helps, you know, cuz I
37:06think that it helps me basically say
37:08what's the beautiful thing here that I
37:10know I'll miss one day. But that is so
37:11that's a tough thing, isn't it? Cuz I I
37:13my my
37:15my youngest is now 11.
37:17So I know I probably seem like a baby to
37:20you, but I already feel like an old man
37:21and I already miss those moments of when
37:23they were so young.
37:25>> Well, I'm an old man and I feel like a
37:26baby.
37:26>> Oh, are you?
37:27>> Yeah.
37:29>> [laughter]
37:30>> Go on, I interrupted you.
37:31>> No, that's okay. Maybe as I grow in
37:32wisdom I too will feel like a baby.
37:34Here's another story that will make you
37:36laugh and everybody else offended. I
37:38came home with my wife and four children
37:40from a long trip. We arrived home at
37:43about midnight.
37:45Around the room suitcases had exploded.
37:48We were exhausted and at about 6:00 in
37:50the morning one of my children started
37:52crying.
37:53>> [snorts]
37:53>> And I rolled over to my wife, both of us
37:55bleary-eyed,
37:57and I said, "Honey." She said, "Yeah."
38:00I said, "Do you remember that sign that
38:02we saw that said if I could do it all
38:04over again, I would find you sooner so I
38:07could love you longer?"
38:08She said, "Yeah."
38:10I said, "I think I'd be a Dominican."
38:12>> [laughter]
38:15>> She has a good sense of humor so she
38:16also found that funny. But you know, it
38:18is so hard, isn't it, in those moments
38:20to see the blessing in the the goodness
38:22in it.
38:22>> It is. It is.
38:26And isn't that great that it's hard to
38:28see because if we could see everything,
38:29it wouldn't be dramatic. It wouldn't be
38:31interesting.
38:34It would be like a reading a novel
38:35second time.
38:37You know exactly what's going to happen.
38:39>> Mhm.
38:41>> I think reincarnation is a
38:44a very reasonable mistake because
38:46we feel, most of us, when we die, with
38:49that we're not finished. There's a lot
38:50we could have done. We we certainly
38:52could have made a a better self and a
38:54better life than we did.
38:56Uh and something's got to be done about
38:58that.
38:59And reincarnation is one answer to that.
39:01But purgatory is a better answer.
39:03Because you just just don't come back to
39:05the same universe and the same kind of
39:07body.
39:08You go to a different one and you get uh
39:10heart surgery.
39:12Cuz that's what you need, a new heart.
39:16I never understood why Protestants
39:18didn't believe in in in um purgatory
39:20because good biblical Protestants
39:22certainly believe that we're sinners.
39:24Uh
39:26and that uh there's no sin in heaven and
39:29that the difference between sin and no
39:31sin is enormous.
39:32So, God has got to do something radical
39:35with us to make us fit for heaven.
39:37>> I think a lot of in intelligent
39:39Protestants are very open to purgatory
39:43as you've explained it. I think they get
39:44squeamish when they start hearing about,
39:47you know, private revelations or other
39:48things the church may have
39:49>> Yeah.
39:50>> said.
39:51>> C.S. Lewis firmly believed in purgatory.
39:53>> Mhm.
39:54>> I think of it as heaven's bathroom.
39:57>> Mhm.
39:57>> Here's the Here's [laughter] the
39:59>> Or heaven's Metamucil or what?
40:01>> Here's the
40:02Here's the dining room. A great banquet
40:04is going to be served. And you show up
40:06at the door.
40:07And God says, "Welcome, my child. Uh
40:10you've made it. But um you stink and
40:13there's fleas all over you. Uh and and
40:15you're full of mud. Wouldn't you like to
40:17take a nice hot shower first before you
40:19come to the table?
40:20And wouldn't you say, "Oh, Lord, please
40:21give me the shower." Well, it's going to
40:23hurt, you know. So, what?
40:25>> When you said it's like heaven's
40:27bathroom, the reason I laughed is I
40:28thought you were going to say it's where
40:29we get all the out.
40:31>> Yes, that's right. That's what the
40:32bathroom is for, and that's what
40:33purgatory is for.
40:35>> We get all the spiritual out of us.
40:37>> Mhm.
40:38>> And we don't think you're full of that,
40:40then you're full of it.
40:41>> [laughter]
40:42>> All right, so here's a question which
40:44the correct answer is no, but I hope
40:46you'll say yes and then tell me what
40:47they are. Do you have regrets? Are there
40:50things in your marriage and in your
40:52fatherhood that you regret having done
40:55poorly, that you wish you have done?
40:56>> Oh, of course. Of course. Always taking
40:58the easy way out, fantasizing,
41:01uh, [gasps]
41:02>> [sighs]
41:03>> thinking of alternatives,
41:04>> That's good.
41:05>> opening the mind to temptations. Yes, of
41:07course, we all have that.
41:09>> Of course.
41:09>> That's beautiful. Thanks. I remember
41:11someone saying to me recently that it's
41:13Satan doesn't even need to get us to
41:15commit serious sin, he just needs to get
41:17us fantasizing.
41:19>> Yeah.
41:19>> Or,
41:21um, cuz when you fantasize, you're not
41:23here.
41:24>> Yeah.
41:25Well, uh,
41:26Thomas Aquinas says that, uh, uh, God
41:29uh,
41:30does not let Satan touch two things,
41:33your spiritual intellect and the freedom
41:35of your will. But he lets Satan touch
41:37everything else, including your
41:38imagination,
41:39>> Mhm.
41:40>> including your passions, and including
41:42sometimes bodily things.
41:44>> Mhm.
41:44>> But those are the two castle keeps that
41:47he can't get into.
41:50>> And it's interesting that we keep
41:51falling for it.
41:52>> Yeah.
41:53>> Cuz because every time we fall for it,
41:55we're disappointed.
41:56>> That is the incredible thing. We're
41:57insane.
41:59Uh, I I like to use the image of the the
42:02Godfather versus the father. Uh, God the
42:05Father makes you an offer you can't
42:06refuse. The Godfather makes you an offer
42:08you can't refuse.
42:10So, he gives you only one hand. God
42:12gives you two.
42:14And every time you make a moral choice,
42:16uh God says, "In my right hand is what
42:19you know is the secret of all joy,
42:21namely, say to me your will be done,
42:24because I'm perfect and I'm love.
42:26And in my left hand is the secret of all
42:28misery. Say no to me,
42:31because I'm the secret of all joy and
42:32all love."
42:34Uh and that's the difference between
42:35good and evil. Now, which which will you
42:36use this time? Your right hand, my right
42:38hand, or my left hand? And our reply to
42:40him is,
42:42"Well, God, you know, I should choose
42:44the right hand, but the left hand is
42:46awfully tempting. Let me try it. Maybe
42:47it'll work this time. It's never worked
42:49before."
42:50>> Yeah.
42:51>> It's always maybe miserable in the end.
42:53But maybe it'll work this time.
42:55Einstein famously famously defined
42:58insanity as doing the same thing over
43:00and over again and thinking it'll work
43:01this time.
43:02>> Yeah. As I've heard you say, putting the
43:04car back on the road expecting it to
43:06run.
43:07>> We're nuts. That's original sin. Um
43:10Fortunately, God has
43:12great love for his severely
43:14brain-damaged children.
43:15>> Hm.
43:16I like how you put that, um
43:18the ea- taking the easy way out.
43:20Yeah. John Paul the Second said,
43:23"Whatever promises to be a shortcut to
43:25happiness leads nowhere."
43:27What advice do you have for for men and
43:29women watching this? Maybe they're
43:31married and they know that they do that.
43:33>> Forget about happiness. There are more
43:35important things.
43:38Goodness, truth, and beauty.
43:40Forget about happiness and you'll get
43:42it.
43:43Worry about happiness and you'll become
43:44a spiritual hypochondriac. You'll lose
43:46it.
43:47You'll worry yourself sick.
43:50All the saints say say these two
43:52apparently very different and apparently
43:55even contradictory things. Uh number
43:58one, life is hard uh and suffering is
44:00necessary.
44:02And suffering is blessed, and it's the
44:04kisses of God.
44:05Uh Uh,
44:06number two, don't worry about anything.
44:09God loves you. Stop worrying.
44:11>> [snorts]
44:13[sighs and gasps]
44:15>> Easier said than done.
44:16>> Easier said than done, indeed.
44:18>> [gasps]
44:19>> Especially because I I believe I must be
44:22some
44:23something [snorts] Irish about me. Have
44:24you heard Murphy's law? You know, if
44:25anything can go wrong, it will.
44:26>> Yeah.
44:28>> Tolkien once described himself as a uh
44:31uh
44:32uh
44:33a temperamental pessimist and a
44:36convinced optimist.
44:37>> Uh-huh.
44:38>> Uh
44:39>> [sighs and gasps]
44:41>> that's me, too. I I expect the worst and
44:45I hope for the best. And what I believe
44:47is too good to be true and what I feel
44:49is too bad to be true.
44:52>> Do How was your wife healing to you? How
44:55How was your relationship with her? How
44:57did that help you to say grow in
44:59holiness sounds too cliché, but you know
45:01what I mean when I say kind of like
45:02heals you? It makes you more of who you
45:04should have been, but weren't.
45:06>> She was strong. She was strong-willed.
45:08She was stubborn. She knew when she was
45:10right.
45:11And most of the time she was.
45:13Uh
45:14>> [sighs]
45:14>> and so that's
45:16that's basically what C.S. Lewis's wife
45:18did to him in A Grief Observed.
45:20You know, stopped him up short. This is
45:22reality. Stop dreaming.
45:25>> Mhm.
45:28My wife's a strong woman. I think your
45:29your wife, Maria, would have liked my
45:31wife.
45:32>> Yeah.
45:32>> She's stubborn.
45:33>> Yeah.
45:34>> But she's softening as she grows. It's
45:35beautiful to see.
45:38>> Yeah.
45:39Well, that's what God does to us. We're
45:42meat and he has to toughen up the meat
45:44by softening it.
45:45>> Like tenderizing us.
45:46>> Tenderizing.
45:49>> What's your opinion of Pope Leo?
45:51>> I think he's what the church needs. The
45:53Holy Spirit is apparently what the
45:54church needs and he's a
45:56>> [sighs and gasps]
45:57>> a peacemaker.
45:58He's not a uh, an extremist in any way
46:02and he's going to heal the divisions, I
46:04hope.
46:05>> What divisions do you see needing
46:07healing?
46:08>> Well,
46:10>> [sighs and gasps]
46:11>> the worst of of the left and the worst
46:13of the right are not just extremists,
46:15but but stubborn extremists.
46:18Uh,
46:19>> [sighs and gasps]
46:20>> the conservative always has a temptation
46:23to
46:24>> [sighs and gasps]
46:25>> ignore people's happiness and people's
46:28feelings and people's vulnerabilities
46:31and needs.
46:32And the liberal always has a temptation
46:35to
46:36ignore objective truth, especially
46:38inconvenient truths.
46:40And truth and love or or or dogma and
46:43compassion are two necessary things
46:46in the church.
46:48Uh, take what is probably the most
46:51divisive of all issues, the one that
46:53that is the most uncompromising,
46:55homosexuality.
46:57The church has two things about
46:58homosexuality. Number one, it is the
47:01wrong thing. It is not God's plan. It is
47:03it is simply wrong in itself. Number
47:06two, we must love all sinners. We are
47:08all sinners. We must love homosexuals
47:11much more than we do.
47:13And we must love homosexuality much less
47:14than we do.
47:16And that's a hard combination.
47:19But the church is equally adamant about
47:20both.
47:21>> You know, how how does the Catholic
47:22Church in her social teaching and moral
47:25teaching transcend the left-right divide
47:27that we talked about?
47:28>> Always has, always will.
47:30From Jesus' time, the Pharisees were the
47:32were the right and the Sadducees were
47:33the left.
47:34And uh, he said the Sadducees were
47:36wrong, so were the Pharisees in
47:37different ways.
47:40Chesterton says somewhere there's only
47:41one angle at which you can stand
47:42upright, but there's always at least two
47:44different angles at which you can fall.
47:45>> Mhm.
47:47Aquinas says not something like, well,
47:50maybe like that when he talks about
47:51beauty. I think he talks about physical
47:53appearance and how
47:54easily it is to become ugly.
47:56>> Mhm.
47:57>> Right? You just move the eye up an inch
47:59or the no- nose over here or you break
48:01this
48:01>> very similar to a kind of scientific
48:03argument for the existence of God. Uh
48:07the windows of opportunity for a
48:09beautiful universe, a universe that that
48:12is is fit for human habitation are so
48:15tiny
48:16that it's almost impossible that we
48:17exist.
48:20It's it's the anthropic principle is
48:22part of it. In order for human life to
48:24develop uh thousands of of almost
48:27impossible coincidence has to happen.
48:30If the temperature of the primeval
48:31fireball uh
48:33a millionth of a second uh after the act
48:35of creation were uh
48:38a millionth of a degree hotter or
48:40colder, you'd never have carbon and
48:42therefore you wouldn't have life.
48:44If the sun were a little farther away or
48:46a little closer, we'd either burn up or
48:48freeze.
48:49If the cosmic rays hadn't bombarded the
48:52slime pools at such such and such an
48:54angle, the hemoglobin molecule could not
48:56have evolved and we wouldn't have
48:58mammals.
49:00So, we've crept in through an an
49:02enormous number of tiny windows.
49:04And that's beauty.
49:07>> What's your favorite class to teach? If
49:09you could teach one more class and
49:11that's it for the rest of your days,
49:13what would it be?
49:15>> The classes where I go deeply into one
49:17philosopher
49:19uh
49:19and I've done that with Plato,
49:21Augustine, Aquinas, and Pascal.
49:24Uh
49:25I think are the best. Probably probably
49:27the best course I ever taught was the
49:28first time I taught Augustine's
49:30Confessions.
49:31Uh I
49:34had a fairly long reading list uh
49:37the whole of the Confessions and a
49:38couple of other books. We never got past
49:40book 10 of the Confessions.
49:43We didn't even do 11, 12, and 13, which
49:45are more theoretical because the
49:47students were so involved
49:49that they asked me
49:51uh
49:52a week or two into the course, um could
49:55we change the assignment? There were
49:56only about 12 people in the course.
49:58Could we change the assignment instead
50:00of having tests and exams, could we
50:02write personal journals?
50:05And since most of the class wanted to do
50:07it, I did it. And every single one of
50:08them was as long as the Confessions
50:11itself, at least 200 pages long.
50:13They got deeply into it.
50:17I was an amateur. I I had
50:20I wasn't and still I'm not a scholar and
50:22expert on Augustine, but that book is is
50:25[snorts]
50:26amazing, absolutely amazing.
50:28>> Is it true that it's the first biography
50:29autobiography that we have?
50:32>> It's the first spiritual autobiography,
50:34yes.
50:35We have accounts of Julius Caesar's
50:38conquests and so on, but you don't know
50:39what's going on in his soul.
50:41>> Yeah.
50:42>> Augustine almost invented
50:43psychoanalysis.
50:44>> Mhm.
50:45>> There's nothing like it in pre-modern
50:47literature.
50:48>> Mhm.
50:50And you've written a book on this.
50:51>> Yeah.
50:52Yeah, called I Burned for Your Peace.
50:55Which is the same paradox as the one in
50:58the most famous sentence ever quoted
51:00outside the Bible among Christians
51:02anyway. You have made us for yourself
51:04and therefore our hearts are restless
51:06till they rest in thee.
51:07That juxtaposition of restlessness and
51:10rest,
51:11that burning
51:12uh
51:13and that peace,
51:16the combination in Augustine is is
51:18unique. I don't know anybody else who
51:19has
51:21both a more burning heart and and a
51:24brighter head.
51:27Uh in the Middle Ages almost all statues
51:28of Augustine had a a burning heart in
51:31one hand and an open book in another
51:32hand.
51:34>> What did your wife like to read?
51:39>> A lot of stuff about the Holocaust.
51:41>> [sighs]
51:42>> Fascinated with with with the problem of
51:44evil.
51:45And spy stories.
51:46>> Mhm.
51:48>> Like John le Carré.
51:55>> Why the Holocaust? Is there a
51:57Is she
51:58Is there a Jewish connection or just
52:00fascinated?
52:00>> She lived in a Jewish neighborhood
52:02and we both have a lot of Jewish friends
52:04and a lot of respect for the Jews.
52:05>> Mhm.
52:06>> And and their wisdom,
52:07uh wisdom of experience.
52:10And also I think it's just
52:12>> [sighs]
52:13>> here is the
52:14most spectacular example of evil.
52:17And it's right in in the heart of of
52:20where we are, our Western civilization.
52:22>> Did you go to Auschwitz with her ever or
52:26>> [sighs]
52:26>> Planned to but um never got around to
52:29it.
52:30>> It's fine.
52:31>> she she was already partly lame about 20
52:33years ago. We we had a lot of good uh
52:37vacations. We went to Italy, we went to
52:39England a couple of times, went to
52:40Scandinavia. And we were going to go to
52:42Eastern Europe but her legs just
52:44wouldn't take it.
52:45>> Okay.
52:46Now, I [snorts] know you said she's
52:47ethnically Italian but did she speak
52:49Italian?
52:51>> Not much. I'm ethnically Dutch and I
52:53only know a couple of Dutch words.
52:54>> Just the swear words?
52:55>> Yeah.
52:57>> What was it like uh going on a vacation
53:00to Italy with your wife?
53:02>> [sighs]
53:03>> Well, it was wonderful. We went to three
53:05places. We went to Venice, which of
53:08course is Venice and unique. And we went
53:10to Rome uh
53:12and uh
53:13>> [laughter]
53:15>> Which is wild, isn't it?
53:16>> Which is wild.
53:18>> I drove in Rome recently with my
53:19children. Did you survive all those uh
53:21little Vespas? I'm not sure my soul did.
53:24I There was a lot of words that came out
53:26of my mouth that I had to I had to
53:28actually apologize to my children for.
53:30It's a frightening experience driving
53:32through Rome. It's cutthroat.
53:34>> Yes, it is.
53:34>> But okay, so then there was Rome.
53:36>> went to her father's uh birthplace.
53:39Uh Acquasanta Terme.
53:41It's near Ascoli Piceno. It's in the
53:43mountains and there's this little
53:45medieval town on top of a large hill
53:48about a thousand people in it. Almost
53:50everybody is related.
53:52Her Her maiden name is Massi. Half the
53:53people there were named Massi.
53:55>> Mhm.
53:57>> Uh and
53:58>> [sighs and gasps]
53:59>> it's a time machine.
54:01You think you're in the year 1200.
54:03>> False.
54:04>> Tiny little cobblestone streets only
54:05only only one way for cars.
54:08Uh and you could see from dozens of
54:10miles in every direction.
54:12And tiny little shops.
54:15Nothing
54:16nothing modern no
54:20And the food was was just
54:23totally fresh totally delicious.
54:25We
54:27Uh I I speak a little German she speaks
54:29a little French. Neither of us speak
54:31Italian.
54:32And when we went there uh
54:36a lot of people in the town square came
54:38to to see us
54:39and nobody spoke uh both uh Italian and
54:43English.
54:44But we found somebody who spoke Italian
54:46and French and somebody who spoke both
54:48Italian and German. So between her
54:51French my German their Italian and our
54:53English we
54:55we spent about an hour
54:57uh making conversation which ordinarily
54:59would have taken five minutes. That was
55:00a life full experience.
55:01>> Mhm.
55:03>> [snorts]
55:03>> I was just in Lithuania and uh we spent
55:06last summer in Austria and Croatia and
55:09one of the sad things I think is that I
55:11don't know if my children are going to
55:13need to learn a language when they go
55:14over to Europe because everyone speaks
55:16English in the cities. Everyone under 40
55:19you know.
55:19>> Yeah.
55:21>> Just to throw something depressing in
55:22there after your nice little anecdote.
55:25>> Yeah well
55:27>> [laughter]
55:30>> If you could go back with your wife and
55:32uh go on a vacation let's say you're
55:34both 30 years younger.
55:36God gives you this little gift. He says
55:38you can go anywhere you want. You got 1
55:40week wherever you want, 30 years
55:41younger. What are you doing?
55:46>> Wales, of all places.
55:50Uh
55:51>> [sighs and gasps]
55:52>> different, beautiful,
55:55small,
55:57uh
55:58>> [sighs and gasps]
55:58>> or Norway.
56:01Bergen, beautiful probably the most
56:03beautiful city I've ever seen.
56:04>> Mhm.
56:05>> It's like living on the side of a
56:06mountain.
56:07>> Mhm.
56:11>> For some reason or other, the more
56:13beautiful the place is,
56:16uh
56:18the
56:20I won't say just weirder, but the
56:22>> [sighs and gasps]
56:24>> the more
56:27I don't know what word I want to use. I
56:28won't don't want to say evil. I don't
56:30want to say just pagan,
56:33but uh the best people live in the worst
56:35places.
56:36>> California. No, that's not true.
56:38>> No, no, no. No, California No, the the
56:40the flyover country. The best people
56:42live in places like Iowa.
56:45Last time I was in Iowa, they said uh
56:47um "You know, Iowa's a a nice place to
56:49live, but you wouldn't want to visit
56:50here."
56:51Just the opposite of what you say about
56:53New York or California.
56:54>> Ah, so you're saying that I see what you
56:55mean. The So, the best
56:57the best people live in the worst
56:59places.
56:59>> Francisco is beautiful.
57:00>> Yeah.
57:01>> New York is beautiful.
57:02>> You wouldn't want to live
57:03>> Provincetown is beautiful. Martha's
57:04Vineyard is beautiful.
57:06Uh
57:07but the best people come from um
57:10the plains of Texas or or Nebraska or
57:13North Dakota.
57:14>> What's your
57:15>> Or Nazareth.
57:16>> [laughter]
57:18>> Why is that?
57:19>> I don't know.
57:19>> You got to have a guess.
57:20>> I guess
57:22I guess you got to have some god, and if
57:24you don't have truth and goodness, you
57:25you settle for beauty.
57:28>> Well, okay. I also think if you're
57:31living in remote Texas or Iowa, it's
57:34probably because you have some history
57:36and family there, which just makes you a
57:37more interesting person, maybe more
57:39loyal to your community.
57:40>> Yeah.
57:41>> Also, and so it's not the place that you
57:43just go to to make a name for yourself.
57:45>> thing I found about New York City is
57:47that there are so few children.
57:50You almost never see children in New
57:51York.
57:52>> Mhm.
57:53>> The strangest thing about Norway, we had
57:55a hotel in in Oslo,
57:57uh
57:59you would see during the day
58:01uh women shopping
58:04uh and then you would see at supper time
58:07men
58:08uh and then uh after 8:00 or 9:00 is if
58:12the kids come out and all get drunk
58:14uh all night
58:15>> By kids you mean like young
58:17>> Children, yeah. Young young adults.
58:19>> Young adults, okay.
58:20>> You never saw families together.
58:22>> Huh.
58:24>> They had families, they I mean they
58:26didn't do cloning yet,
58:27>> [laughter]
58:27>> but uh you never saw them together.
58:29>> Yeah.
58:32>> I I I find that amazing that
58:35uh there's this organization uh
58:37I think it's part of the United Nations
58:39that uh rates uh
58:42different countries for happiness.
58:45Uh and they always rank the Scandinavian
58:48countries as the happiest countries in
58:49the world and the sub-Saharan African
58:52countries as the unhappiest countries in
58:54the world. When I first read that, I
58:55thought it was a joke.
58:57Because Scandinavians are are famous for
59:00smiling all the time and not being dour
59:02and Africans of course never smile. You
59:04never see their white teeth.
59:05>> That's right.
59:06>> And the suicide rate in Scandinavia is
59:08very high and the suicide rate in
59:10sub-Saharan Africa is very low.
59:12And if there's any indication of
59:13happiness that even a child can
59:15understand is a smile.
59:17And if there's any obvious indication of
59:19of unhappiness is suicide.
59:22So these idiots have turned everything
59:24absolutely upside down.
59:26It's almost as bad as Hilary Mantel's
59:28version of of Thomas More.
59:31A Man for All Seasons pictures him as
59:33the saint and Cromwell as the as the
59:35villain.
59:36She does the opposite.
59:37>> Really?
59:38>> She's a brilliant writer.
59:40She's the writer of Wolf Hall, which is
59:41a very successful TV series.
59:43But Thomas More is the villain and
59:46Cromwell is the hero.
59:47>> She doesn't have to be an doesn't happen
59:48to be an Anglican, does she?
59:50>> No, I think she's a sort of
59:51semi-Satanist.
59:52>> Huh. Well, that'll do.
59:53>> At least she went through a phase like
59:55that.
59:56But sometimes people are so
59:58spectacularly wrong that you have to be
1:00:01brilliant to be that spectacularly
1:00:03wrong.
1:00:03>> Mhm.
1:00:05What do you do for fun when you have a
1:00:07day off?
1:00:09>> [sighs]
1:00:11>> I write.
1:00:12Writing's fun.
1:00:12>> How many books are you writing right
1:00:14now?
1:00:15>> Um finishing up one, starting another
1:00:18one.
1:00:18>> Okay.
1:00:19>> Um
1:00:21and I play chess.
1:00:22Mainly with computers.
1:00:24>> Yeah.
1:00:26>> Um not that good at it, but
1:00:27>> I hear you're pretty bloody good. You
1:00:29came to my cigar lounge in Ohio, you
1:00:30remember?
1:00:31>> I do.
1:00:32>> And you schooled several people in
1:00:33chess.
1:00:35>> Yeah.
1:00:35>> Yeah. I'm terrible at chess. I remember
1:00:37I once wanted to be good at chess
1:00:39because it seemed like a kind of
1:00:40intellectual thing to do, sophisticated.
1:00:43So, oh, I'd like to be those things,
1:00:44thank you.
1:00:45So, I brought my iPad on a plane I was
1:00:47terrible. When I say I was terrible, I
1:00:49don't mean I was okay. I mean I was I am
1:00:52terrible. So, I pull out my iPad just to
1:00:54kind of practice, you know? Cuz I don't
1:00:56want to humiliate myself by playing with
1:00:58you.
1:00:59And I open it up and the fellow next to
1:01:01me leans in and
1:01:03he starts watching me. Ah.
1:01:07So, I had to grow in humility that day.
1:01:09>> Ah, well, this is the good thing about
1:01:11competitive sports.
1:01:12If you lose, you win humility.
1:01:15>> Aha.
1:01:15>> And if you win, you win happiness. So,
1:01:18it's a win-win.
1:01:19>> Mhm.
1:01:20>> No, I'm I'm pretty good at chess, but
1:01:24uh I'm all right-brain intuitive. I'll
1:01:27I'll see a position and instinctively
1:01:29say, "This is unsound or this is sound."
1:01:31>> I see.
1:01:31>> I'm very bad at calculation. I can't
1:01:34think more than one one or two moves
1:01:35ahead.
1:01:36>> Interesting. Yeah.
1:01:39You ever been to Central Park and
1:01:41played?
1:01:42>> Uh it's Washington Square Park that has
1:01:44all the chess players in it. No, never
1:01:46played there, but I played in a
1:01:49simultaneous exhibition once with the
1:01:50American champion Sammy Reshevsky, and I
1:01:52got a draw.
1:01:54>> Okay.
1:01:55>> That's my supreme achievement.
1:01:56>> Yeah.
1:01:56>> It was a very dull game. I think he was
1:01:58just bored. But [laughter] uh after 55
1:02:01moves, he offered me a draw and I took
1:02:02it.
1:02:04>> Did you ever play instrument?
1:02:06>> Piano, a little bit.
1:02:08I used to play competitive chess in high
1:02:10school, and uh it got too much of a a
1:02:13pressure. It wasn't fun anymore.
1:02:16So, I I just play for fun now.
1:02:20>> What did [snorts] you and your friends
1:02:21do when you were a teenager for fun?
1:02:23>> Anything we wanted to do. Life was not
1:02:25structured.
1:02:27We played a lot of baseball, but it was
1:02:29never Little League. We never had more
1:02:30than three or four players on a team.
1:02:33>> Mhm.
1:02:33>> And the field was just whatever was
1:02:35around.
1:02:37Uh [sighs]
1:02:38and we would
1:02:39ride our bikes anywhere we wanted to. We
1:02:42followed fire trucks to see fires.
1:02:45Uh
1:02:46anything we wanted to. We we we created
1:02:48our own games and and and thrills.
1:02:53We did some very dangerous and foolish
1:02:55things like uh climbing uh
1:02:58high rocks and and staring over abysses
1:03:01and daring each other to
1:03:03uh to jump.
1:03:08But we
1:03:10weren't afraid of
1:03:11mass murderers or or drug dealers.
1:03:15>> As Catholics, we spend a lot of time
1:03:17talking about vocation, and rightly so.
1:03:20But sometimes we forget that building
1:03:22things can be part of our vocation, too.
1:03:24Maybe that's a business, or a side
1:03:26hustle. Maybe it's a product you've
1:03:27wanted to create for years, but haven't
1:03:29gotten around to launching. For me,
1:03:31that's been the Pints with Aquinas
1:03:33store.
1:03:34Well before I joined Daily Wire, I've
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1:03:38did, our sales skyrocketed because it's
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1:03:44Shopify is that it removes so much of
1:03:46the friction between having an idea and
1:03:48actually putting it out into the world.
1:03:49The storefront is there, the tools are
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1:04:26You've probably heard the phrase, "Do
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1:04:31don't do good things just because they
1:04:32make us feel good. We do them because
1:04:35they're the right thing to do. But isn't
1:04:36it interesting how often doing the right
1:04:38thing does bring a certain kind of joy?
1:04:41That's one reason I love Seven Weeks
1:04:43Coffee. First, it's genuinely great
1:04:45coffee. My wife and I have tried a lot
1:04:47of brands over the years, and this is
1:04:49the one we keep coming back to. But
1:04:51every morning, there's something else I
1:04:53appreciate about it. I know that every
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1:04:58organizations around the country. Seven
1:05:00Weeks Coffee donates 10% of every sale
1:05:02to organizations helping mothers,
1:05:04fathers, and babies choose life. So,
1:05:06yes, the coffee tastes great, but I
1:05:08honestly think it tastes a little better
1:05:10knowing your daily cup is helping build
1:05:11a culture of life. They're called 7
1:05:14weeks coffee because at 7 weeks a baby
1:05:15is about the size of a coffee bean and
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1:05:40>> Is it not hard to Is it not hard to
1:05:42become
1:05:44uh to despair when you see how different
1:05:47say Boston is today to what you grew up
1:05:50in?
1:05:50>> [clears throat]
1:05:50>> Yeah, especially when you read something
1:05:52like Brave New World which takes it one
1:05:54more step and we're almost there.
1:05:56>> How so?
1:05:57>> Life's totally organized, totally
1:05:59scientific, totally impersonal, totally
1:06:01technological.
1:06:03Abolition of family and motherhood.
1:06:07Scary book. Prophetic.
1:06:09>> a very scary book.
1:06:11Do you see anything stopping that? And
1:06:13you're not allowed to say God.
1:06:14>> Yeah, the church.
1:06:15>> Uh
1:06:16how will the church stop it?
1:06:17>> Church's view of family, of marriage, of
1:06:19the meaning of life, of a person.
1:06:21And the greatest of all adventures
1:06:23becoming a saint.
1:06:25Nothing can rival that. Nothing.
1:06:28>> Aristotle says that we're political
1:06:30animals, but as modern technology
1:06:32advances, it seems that we need each
1:06:34other less.
1:06:35And we don't even want community. So,
1:06:38that we're like fish that don't want
1:06:40water.
1:06:41>> We think we don't, but we do.
1:06:43Because when we find that we love it.
1:06:46But it's it's almost always small.
1:06:49Plato says somewhere in the Republic
1:06:50that the ideal city can't be larger than
1:06:53the number of people you can know as
1:06:55friends.
1:06:57>> What's that like 20?
1:06:58>> He thought it was I think somebody said
1:07:01it was between 10,000 and 20,000 people.
1:07:05>> So, more than 20.
1:07:06>> That was a small town.
1:07:12Yeah.
1:07:12>> And people in small towns live different
1:07:14lives than people in large cities.
1:07:17>> Or how you said that people, when they
1:07:18find it, they love it. How are they
1:07:20finding it today?
1:07:23>> [sighs]
1:07:29>> In their might
1:07:30>> [clears throat]
1:07:31>> might being born in small towns and
1:07:33staying there
1:07:35or returning to them.
1:07:36>> Mhm.
1:07:36>> Uh
1:07:41Wyoming Catholic College is very small
1:07:43and very rural. And And people
1:07:45absolutely love it.
1:07:46>> Mhm.
1:07:47>> And one of the things that uh
1:07:48distinguishes it is that uh when you go
1:07:51on campus, you leave all screens behind.
1:07:53No cell phones.
1:07:54>> Mhm.
1:07:55>> 4 years of college education without a
1:07:58cell phone or a or a computer.
1:08:00And many people say I couldn't possibly
1:08:03do that.
1:08:04And freshmen say, "Well, I'll try it,
1:08:06but I'm not going to like it."
1:08:07>> Mhm.
1:08:08>> All the seniors say it was wonderful.
1:08:11You have real contact with real people,
1:08:13real things, real nature.
1:08:16>> I saw a fellow with a sweatshirt, and it
1:08:19said on the back, "Offline is the new
1:08:21luxury."
1:08:23>> Yep.
1:08:26Yep.
1:08:27>> My fear is that our because modern
1:08:30technology is so ubiquitous and
1:08:33immediately gratifying,
1:08:35and because many of us don't know what
1:08:37it's like to experience the joy of
1:08:38community,
1:08:39>> Mhm.
1:08:40>> that
1:08:41none of we won't seek it out, and things
1:08:42are only going to get worse forever.
1:08:44>> Most won't, some will.
1:08:46Pope Benedict said that the church is
1:08:48going to become smaller and better.
1:08:51The church always has an answer
1:08:54uh to the new ills of of of the society.
1:08:58For every heresy, there's a a a creedal
1:09:01correction. and for every moral
1:09:03decadence there's a an alternative.
1:09:07The church is going to survive.
1:09:09How big it'll be, how influential it'll
1:09:11be, we don't know.
1:09:13But there is an answer. There's no
1:09:15reason for despair.
1:09:20>> Are you seeing what I keep hearing
1:09:22about, namely uh
1:09:25a resurgence of interest in Catholicism
1:09:27on campus? Do you see
1:09:29>> I see it in quality. I don't know about
1:09:32quantity. I'm not
1:09:33a scientist or anything measures of it,
1:09:35but the
1:09:36>> What do you [laughter] mean?
1:09:36>> are more serious, more
1:09:39>> [sighs and gasps]
1:09:41>> more strong in both faith and reason and
1:09:43in the blend of them.
1:09:44>> Mhm.
1:09:46>> Yeah, I'm I'm optimistic about that.
1:09:49Whether that will sell well, whether the
1:09:52whole society will follow or not,
1:09:54I guess nobody knows.
1:09:56Uh
1:09:57the saints would all say, "Well, that
1:09:59depends on you
1:10:01and how much love and how much sacrifice
1:10:03you're willing to make
1:10:05for the good of the world."
1:10:07Imagine what 10 more Mother Teresas
1:10:09would do.
1:10:10>> Mhm.
1:10:16I think I asked you this last time but
1:10:18about the liturgy wars.
1:10:21I think it's I think it's a little too
1:10:22easy to sort of throw up our hands when
1:10:24we hear that because people don't like
1:10:26conflict. People want people to get
1:10:28along.
1:10:29And so
1:10:30we tend to get upset with these poor
1:10:32traditionalists cuz they just keep
1:10:33making things
1:10:35sort of annoying for the rest of us who
1:10:36are just trying to get along.
1:10:38But I think the traditionalists have a
1:10:39point.
1:10:40>> Of course they do.
1:10:41>> Um more than a point. So, what
1:10:44what are we to do?
1:10:45Because I see a lot of young people
1:10:46becoming Catholic.
1:10:48>> We're
1:10:48>> They love the traditional Latin Mass.
1:10:50They love the traditional prayers. And
1:10:51they're being told that
1:10:53well, maybe they're not being told, but
1:10:54they feel like they're being told that
1:10:55they're wrong to like this
1:10:57>> Well, I I go to the Mass almost every
1:10:59Sunday and uh
1:11:02it's the one place it's it's the one
1:11:04church that I know that's always full.
1:11:07It's always got families, a lot of kids,
1:11:09a lot of young people.
1:11:11Uh to make that illegal is absurd.
1:11:15Uh
1:11:16>> [sighs and gasps]
1:11:17>> Catholic means universal and the church
1:11:19has always had a a a a variety of of
1:11:24options liturgically.
1:11:26You don't have to love the Latin Mass. I
1:11:28love the English Mass, too. I wouldn't
1:11:30want to go back to everything's got to
1:11:32be Latin.
1:11:35Uh there's no reason for those wars.
1:11:37>> Well, I mean, I would say and I think
1:11:39it's could be argued that that that
1:11:42Pope Francis exacerbated those wars with
1:11:45his motu proprio. I think that's my
1:11:46opinion.
1:11:47>> I can't disagree with that.
1:11:50>> Okay.
1:11:50So
1:11:51>> I don't think you have to agree with
1:11:52everything the Pope does.
1:11:53>> Well, that's good. Okay.
1:11:55>> I think Francis did a lot of
1:11:57>> [snorts]
1:11:57>> um
1:11:57harm to the church and I think we're
1:11:59picking up the pieces now.
1:12:01>> I think I think just acknowledging that
1:12:03is a great way to stop gaslighting our
1:12:06Protestant friends looking into the
1:12:07church.
1:12:08>> Yeah.
1:12:10Hey, we've we've been through worse
1:12:11Popes than Francis. I mean, Francis it
1:12:13was at least a
1:12:14>> Really?
1:12:15>> thought he was a Catholic.
1:12:17I mean, imagine
1:12:18>> Who was worse?
1:12:19>> Uh
1:12:20Alexander,
1:12:21uh the Borgias.
1:12:22>> They were fornicators, so were they.
1:12:24Wouldn't you
1:12:24>> Borgias.
1:12:25>> Wouldn't you rather that
1:12:27than uh confusion on doctrine? I'm being
1:12:29a little hyperbolic, but not really.
1:12:32>> Confusion on doctrine?
1:12:34>> [sighs and gasps]
1:12:36>> Yeah, we have that.
1:12:38But we've never had outright heresy
1:12:40taught as as doctrine.
1:12:43I mean, the stupidest Popes I think
1:12:44Francis was was was
1:12:46in
1:12:48many ways stupid, not in all ways.
1:12:51Uh
1:12:5295% of the things he said were very
1:12:54good.
1:12:55Uh, [sighs]
1:12:56but we've had stupid popes. We've had
1:12:58wicked popes. Francis wasn't wicked.
1:13:01He had a good heart.
1:13:02>> Why do you think that?
1:13:04>> Genuine love for for the poor and and
1:13:08for ordinary people.
1:13:09>> Mhm.
1:13:10>> Uh,
1:13:11his motives are good. Um,
1:13:13his brains didn't catch up with his
1:13:15motives, I think.
1:13:18I I wouldn't even be scandalized if if
1:13:20he were canonized as a saint.
1:13:22Some of the saints were very stupid in
1:13:23some things.
1:13:25>> Yeah, that is a point I think Catholics
1:13:27need to realize that canonization just
1:13:29means that an individual is in heaven,
1:13:31not that we have to go by everything
1:13:33they said. They're not all doctors of
1:13:34the church, either. Yeah.
1:13:35>> Right.
1:13:38I I find
1:13:40>> [sighs and gasps]
1:13:41>> reverence and piety
1:13:43much more important than which liturgy
1:13:46you have or or which tradition you
1:13:49follow.
1:13:50Uh,
1:13:52I find in some
1:13:55groups that I disagree with a lot
1:13:58theologically, like the Quakers,
1:14:00uh, and even some Unitarians,
1:14:03uh, I find a genuine sanctity and piety
1:14:05that's lacking in the average Catholic
1:14:07parish.
1:14:09So, piety doesn't always go together
1:14:11with theological orthodoxy.
1:14:12>> Mhm.
1:14:13>> It should, but it doesn't.
1:14:15>> But if they are pious, it's not because
1:14:17of their
1:14:19lack of being Catholic. That is to say,
1:14:21it's it's clearly a deficiency.
1:14:22>> Well, they're they're they're pious
1:14:23because they follow some of what the
1:14:25Catholic Church has and some of what the
1:14:27Bible says and some of what Jesus says,
1:14:29sometimes better than we do.
1:14:30>> I like to think of it as a very
1:14:32well-stocked gymnasium
1:14:34and then a fellow who's got a couple of
1:14:36dumbbells.
1:14:37Yeah. If [laughter] if the fellow's
1:14:39using the dumbbells over here and the
1:14:40fellow with the gym is just laying on
1:14:42his back,
1:14:43>> Mhm.
1:14:43>> it shouldn't be surprising
1:14:44[clears throat] that this guy's
1:14:45>> That's a good point.
1:14:46>> Mhm.
1:14:51>> Yeah.
1:14:53>> So, how many more books you got in you?
1:14:55>> Have no idea. Ask God.
1:14:58>> But he doesn't [laughter] answer me
1:14:59back.
1:15:01>> [gasps]
1:15:03>> The last one I completed, which is in
1:15:04the hands of Words on Fire,
1:15:07uh is called When I Die. It's uh about
1:15:10death and what I expect to find after
1:15:12death and how to prepare for it. And uh
1:15:16I've I'm clogging their pipes with a
1:15:18number of other manuscripts and also
1:15:20Ignatius Press.
1:15:21So, I said to them, I wouldn't mind if
1:15:23you waited until I died to publish this.
1:15:25>> Yeah.
1:15:26>> Uh
1:15:27but meanwhile, I'm writing Socratic
1:15:29dialogues and uh
1:15:31um
1:15:32a book on uh St. Faustina's um journal
1:15:36um diary is coming out next year.
1:15:39>> What is this?
1:15:40I mean, I know what Faustina's diary is,
1:15:41but what is your work on it?
1:15:43>> Well, it's a commentary on it.
1:15:45>> Wow.
1:15:46>> It's trying to do for that what I did
1:15:47for the Pensées in my Pascal book.
1:15:51>> Because the diary is already quite
1:15:53large. Are you adding footnotes or is
1:15:55>> Well, I I'm writing two books. One is an
1:15:57abbreviation of it, which is only about
1:15:59100 pages long, and another is a
1:16:02uh kind of spiritual commentary on it,
1:16:04which is about 250 pages long.
1:16:08>> Beautiful.
1:16:10I love the quote where Christ says to
1:16:12Faustina, "The greater the sinner, the
1:16:14greater right he has to my mercy."
1:16:16>> Mhm.
1:16:16>> [clears throat]
1:16:18>> She's unorthodox and surprising.
1:16:22She She doesn't say heretical things,
1:16:26but she says, like Jesus, things that
1:16:28surprise you.
1:16:29>> Mhm.
1:16:30>> Yeah, what?
1:16:31Oh, the diary is full of them.
1:16:34>> Well, I think we have one thing we often
1:16:35don't know is that she talked about she
1:16:38had a vision of hell
1:16:39>> Yeah.
1:16:40>> and said that there were many people
1:16:41there and that what she noticed is that
1:16:43most of the people who were there didn't
1:16:44believe in hell.
1:16:45>> Yeah.
1:16:46>> Yeah.
1:16:47>> Well, C.S. Lewis had the same thing.
1:16:49He said, "In the past, the devil got us
1:16:51by over emphasis by having us over
1:16:53emphasize his presence. Today, we
1:16:55under emphasize his presence. These are
1:16:57These are the two easiest ways to lose a
1:16:59war.
1:17:00Vastly overestimate your enemy, vastly
1:17:02underestimate your enemy."
1:17:04>> That's good.
1:17:06When's the last time you heard a homily
1:17:07on hell?
1:17:10>> Don't think I have ever in all my life
1:17:12heard a homily on hell.
1:17:13>> Is that good or bad?
1:17:14>> Nor have I ever in my whole life heard a
1:17:17homily on sexual morality.
1:17:20Except in the vaguest of terms.
1:17:22>> Well, vaguest of terms makes sense, I
1:17:24think, when it comes to homilies because
1:17:25there are often children present.
1:17:27>> This is true.
1:17:28This is true.
1:17:30>> But, I would think that this uh we need
1:17:32to begin acknowledging the reality of
1:17:35hell from the pulpit.
1:17:37>> If we don't, what do we save from?
1:17:39Political incorrectness?
1:17:41>> Hm.
1:17:43>> [snorts]
1:17:44>> Mhm.
1:17:48>> I'm fascinated with the fact that Jesus
1:17:52talks more about hell than anybody else.
1:17:55And he gives us more reasons for hope
1:17:59than for despair. For instance, the
1:18:00parable of the
1:18:02of the hundred sheep. One of those is a
1:18:03black sheep. He spends all his time
1:18:05focusing on the black sheep, and he gets
1:18:07him back.
1:18:08So, the fact that hell is so important
1:18:10doesn't mean that the majority are going
1:18:12there. Nobody knows, of course.
1:18:14>> So, you disagree with Aquinas and
1:18:16Augustine, then?
1:18:18>> None of them taught as a certainty that
1:18:21the majority went to hell.
1:18:23Most of the pre-moderns assumed that.
1:18:28Uh
1:18:29I don't personally believe that's likely
1:18:30true,
1:18:32simply because God's mercy is stronger
1:18:34than our sin.
1:18:35And he'll get everybody that he possibly
1:18:37can into heaven.
1:18:38>> Mhm.
1:18:40>> Uh when the disciples said, "Lord, are
1:18:42many going to be saved?"
1:18:44They must have thought, "Hey, let's
1:18:46let's
1:18:48let's find the skinny about this. What's
1:18:50the population statistics? What are our
1:18:51chances? Do we sweat? Do we try harder
1:18:54or do we relax?"
1:18:56You know what his answer is? Strive to
1:18:57enter in.
1:18:58>> Mhm.
1:18:58>> Wrong question.
1:19:01Not a fruitful question.
1:19:03The question is, is it real? Yes. Can
1:19:05anybody go there who chooses it? Yes.
1:19:07>> Yeah.
1:19:10Uh speaking of hell, uh have you been to
1:19:12Fatima? Not that Fatima is like hell,
1:19:14but the the visionaries saw hell.
1:19:16>> not. In fact, I just finished reading uh
1:19:19the classic book on Fatima by Walsh.
1:19:21Beautiful.
1:19:22>> I would love to go. I just read uh
1:19:25Sister
1:19:26>> Lucia.
1:19:27>> Lucia's uh
1:19:28account of what took place.
1:19:32>> As far as I remember, I did, too. And
1:19:35she's she didn't say the majority. No,
1:19:38no. She said many.
1:19:39>> Many, yeah.
1:19:41>> Well, for for the good shepherd, 1% is
1:19:44too many.
1:19:45>> Mhm.
1:19:49>> And I need even if 99% are saved, that's
1:19:51too few.
1:19:54>> Yeah. Well, I mean I don't know. I I
1:19:56guess I'm a little more pessimistic than
1:19:58you are. I mean, our our Lord does
1:20:01talk about the the narrow way and that
1:20:03few find it. That seems to be
1:20:05>> It is intrinsically narrow. That doesn't
1:20:08necessarily mean
1:20:10>> [sighs and gasps]
1:20:10>> uh
1:20:12less than 50%.
1:20:14He's not a statistician. He's a father.
1:20:17And uh
1:20:19if a father has 20 kids and
1:20:21one of them is lost, that's 19 [snorts]
1:20:23too little
1:20:24saved and one too many lost.
1:20:29I think purgatory takes care of of of of
1:20:31the fact that we're inveterate centers
1:20:34and very very stupid. Uh
1:20:37Purgatory is is much more serious than
1:20:39we think.
1:20:40And um
1:20:42All the saints who talk about,
1:20:43especially St. Catherine of Genoa, had
1:20:45visions of purgatory
1:20:46say that not only are the pains of
1:20:49purgatory much more serious than any of
1:20:51the pains on Earth, but also the joys
1:20:54are much greater, because you're
1:20:56guaranteed heaven.
1:20:57You're guaranteed that you can't sin
1:20:59again.
1:21:00>> Mhm.
1:21:00>> And you want nothing but God's will, and
1:21:02you get nothing but God's will, and
1:21:04God's will is is is intense suffering.
1:21:06>> Mhm.
1:21:07>> So, you have in purgatory the same
1:21:09attitude toward suffering that the great
1:21:10saints like Faustina
1:21:12uh and and the little flower have toward
1:21:15suffering.
1:21:17You accept it not reluctantly, but but
1:21:21passionately as as God's will for you.
1:21:24In that deep sense, you're happy even in
1:21:26your sufferings.
1:21:28>> Mhm.
1:21:31Yeah.
1:21:32May all the souls of the faithful
1:21:34departed through the mercy of God rest
1:21:35in peace.
1:21:36>> Amen.
1:21:38>> What does your daily prayer life look
1:21:40like, if that's not too personal a
1:21:41question?
1:21:45>> Well, I say the morning offering uh
1:21:47and expand it my own version of it
1:21:50uh to have a prayer list. I say the
1:21:53rosary and the chaplet every day.
1:21:55Uh and I read at least one psalm and one
1:21:58uh
1:21:59mhm uh
1:22:00something else uh at night.
1:22:02And then, being lazy and stupid and
1:22:06waiting until the night to do this,
1:22:08uh I usually, in a minimal way, uh talk
1:22:11personally to God.
1:22:12>> Yeah.
1:22:13>> But, throughout the day,
1:22:14uh especially in times of stress, uh
1:22:17I find that repetition is wonderful.
1:22:20Jesus, I trust in you, the thing on on
1:22:22Faustina's
1:22:23That's my favorite prayer of all time.
1:22:25That's the simplest and most complete
1:22:27prayer that I know.
1:22:28>> Mhm.
1:22:30>> Because it's it's incredibly simple.
1:22:33Here's God's will, here's your will.
1:22:34Which is better? Which is wiser? Which
1:22:37is more loving? Which is more powerful?
1:22:39Duh.
1:22:40>> Mhm.
1:22:42Yeah, so I trust in you is a act of
1:22:44surrender, submission.
1:22:46>> That's faith, hope, and charity
1:22:48together.
1:22:51And
1:22:52I think we see that in little children.
1:22:56And in babies. Look look at a baby
1:22:59uh can't even talk yet
1:23:01in the arms of his mother looking up at
1:23:04his mother's face.
1:23:06What's in that look?
1:23:08Total faith, total hope, total charity.
1:23:12>> Yeah.
1:23:13>> All is one thing together.
1:23:18>> Um I asked you last time we spoke, I
1:23:20think, if you're afraid of death. You
1:23:21said no, you're afraid of suffering, but
1:23:23there are ways to take care of that, but
1:23:27has anything changed [laughter] has
1:23:28anything changed or are you
1:23:30you looking forward to death? Are you
1:23:32afraid frightened of it? Are you afraid
1:23:33are you frightened
1:23:34>> Because because I have seen how hard it
1:23:36is to die and because I realize that
1:23:39that's the normal process. Very few
1:23:41people have a an instant easy death.
1:23:44>> [snorts]
1:23:44>> I think I'm more afraid of dying now
1:23:46than I was, but I'm less afraid of death
1:23:48because I know that death is going to be
1:23:50part of God's will for me.
1:23:52>> [snorts]
1:23:53>> And there are at least moments when I
1:23:56want nothing but God's will. That's my
1:23:58absolute.
1:24:02And that moment is usually subconscious
1:24:04rather than conscious. It's it's
1:24:06hard to keep that in the consciousness
1:24:08for long, but that's my absolute. That's
1:24:11got to be.
1:24:12>> I know you said that Maria was bedridden
1:24:15for quite a while and it was a slow
1:24:17regression until she was in hospice, but
1:24:20um
1:24:22has it what what's it been like sort of
1:24:24having your routine altered so it's no
1:24:27longer around her or even
1:24:30prior to that the things that maybe you
1:24:31enjoyed doing together that you could no
1:24:32longer do.
1:24:34Has that been difficult?
1:24:36>> It hasn't been difficult. It's been
1:24:39>> [sighs]
1:24:40>> freeing
1:24:41and
1:24:42>> [gasps]
1:24:43>> obviously easier. So much so
1:24:47that my inveterate pessimism says, "All
1:24:49right, when's the next foot going to
1:24:50drop?"
1:24:52>> [sighs and gasps]
1:24:53>> Right.
1:24:53>> Uh
1:24:55I underest- I constantly underestimate
1:24:58God's love and compassion.
1:25:01He's going to give us better things than
1:25:03we can imagine, not worse. I know that,
1:25:05but I don't feel it.
1:25:08>> Mhm.
1:25:08>> I'm a worrier.
1:25:09>> Yeah.
1:25:12Who's
1:25:12>> And that's I don't think that's in
1:25:14itself a moral fault, but it's certainly
1:25:15a psychological fault.
1:25:20>> Who's one of um Looking back on your
1:25:23life, who would you say is
1:25:25one of your best friends?
1:25:27Did you have many?
1:25:29>> Living?
1:25:30>> Uh both. You could either way.
1:25:33>> You don't mean spiritual friends like
1:25:35Augustine and Aquinas, you mean
1:25:37>> No, I mean real annoying friends that
1:25:40pop over without asking you and borrow
1:25:41things and don't return them.
1:25:46>> [sighs]
1:25:49>> Not that many.
1:25:51Surprisingly, I don't enjoy parties. I
1:25:54don't enjoy just going to bars and
1:25:56talking
1:25:58>> Mhm.
1:25:58>> trash with people. I don't like small
1:26:00talk.
1:26:01>> Me, neither.
1:26:02>> Um
1:26:03I had a few very good friends in
1:26:05college. They're almost all dead now.
1:26:07And and some family friends.
1:26:10A few of which are alive.
1:26:12>> [gasps]
1:26:12>> I think my best friends have been my
1:26:15wife and children.
1:26:16>> Yeah.
1:26:17>> And before that, my parents.
1:26:20>> Do you feel the need to process what you
1:26:22went through with Maria with a friend?
1:26:26>> That's what I'm doing now with you.
1:26:27>> Okay. Well, thank you.
1:26:28>> Yes.
1:26:28>> Yeah.
1:26:32>> I don't feel the need to do it. It's not
1:26:35a need. It's a
1:26:36>> [sighs and gasps]
1:26:38>> It's a way of preaching the gospel.
1:26:40You know the saying attributed to St.
1:26:42Francis, preach the gospel use words
1:26:44when necessary.
1:26:46>> Mhm.
1:26:47>> Um
1:26:49I'm not a great example, but I'm a
1:26:51survivor.
1:26:54And I'm
1:26:56I guess kind of proud of the fact that I
1:26:58survived, that we won.
1:26:59>> That's beautiful.
1:27:01Think about how much cause for
1:27:02disappointment you would have right now
1:27:04if 30 years ago you called it quits.
1:27:06>> Oh my goodness. Oh my goodness. I I
1:27:08can't imagine that.
1:27:11That would be worse than death.
1:27:13>> And so many people, so many of us do it.
1:27:15>> Well, that Well, that's the point of the
1:27:16joke of of uh uh of the movie.
1:27:19You know, murder is more is easier to
1:27:22endure than than divorce.
1:27:24>> Mhm.
1:27:26>> And psychologists say that children are
1:27:27more harmed by divorce than by the death
1:27:29of a parent.
1:27:30More traumatized.
1:27:31>> Wow, absolutely.
1:27:32>> Yeah.
1:27:34We don't love you enough to stay with
1:27:35you. Goodbye.
1:27:38What a terrible thing.
1:27:41Imagine Imagine a country in which half
1:27:43the people committed suicide.
1:27:45Well, half of marriages end in divorce.
1:27:47We are that country.
1:27:48>> Mhm.
1:27:53>> That's unsustainable.
1:27:58>> Yeah, it's got to be
1:28:01it's got to be the belief that something
1:28:03is better over there.
1:28:06That my wife, say, or my children are
1:28:08the cause of my misery. They're the
1:28:11reason I'm so bloody unhappy.
1:28:14Isn't it? That's obviously the root of
1:28:15divorce. It's
1:28:17that shiny thing over there. Then I'll
1:28:20be
1:28:20>> Not me.
1:28:21>> No, I'm fine.
1:28:22>> I'm fine.
1:28:22>> I'll be great. Yeah, it's all these
1:28:24bloody people.
1:28:25>> If only I could have undone that
1:28:26mistake.
1:28:27>> If only it were for these What is that
1:28:29from? Is that from the Brothers? Oh,
1:28:30yeah, it is from the Brothers. Ivan uh
1:28:34wants to run off with uh
1:28:37>> Katerina.
1:28:38>> No.
1:28:42>> No.
1:28:43>> Who's the Sheila?
1:28:44Um
1:28:45>> Grushenka. Grushenka.
1:28:46>> Yeah.
1:28:46>> Oh, Dmitri runs off with Grushenka. Not
1:28:48>> That's right. I got it wrong. You're
1:28:49correct. Uh anyway, the author says of
1:28:53uh Dmitri, you know, that he wanted to
1:28:54take her to the This is one of my
1:28:56favorite lines. It breaks my heart when
1:28:57I read it. To the ends of Russia to
1:28:59settle down with her incognito. Then a
1:29:02beautiful pure life would begin. Oh, it
1:29:05must be pure. It must. And then the the
1:29:07narrator says he believed like many men
1:29:10that all of his problems could be fixed
1:29:12with a change of place.
1:29:13>> Right. Right.
1:29:15This is why people travel.
1:29:17>> Yeah.
1:29:19>> It's an escape.
1:29:21>> But this is
1:29:24Yeah, that's the root of the
1:29:25>> That's That's terrifying because that
1:29:28mistake is one that you're morally
1:29:30responsible for. That's stupidity.
1:29:32That's pride. That's selfishness.
1:29:34It's your fault, not mine. I'm not a
1:29:36sinner, you are.
1:29:39If that's the deepest thing anyway,
1:29:40you're going to hell.
1:29:44>> How did you deal with arguments with
1:29:45your wife where you were being stubborn
1:29:47or It sounds like she was stubborn with
1:29:49her
1:29:50general state, but like how how did the
1:29:52two of you How did you overcome your own
1:29:54stupidity when you were convinced you
1:29:55were right?
1:29:57>> [sighs]
1:30:00>> By
1:30:01compromising.
1:30:03By saying, "Okay."
1:30:07By by giving in. And usually she was
1:30:09right and I was wrong.
1:30:11>> Feels like death, doesn't it? Sometimes.
1:30:13I mean, I don't know what death feels
1:30:14like, but I imagine it's going to feel
1:30:16quite like giving in.
1:30:19>> I mean, I'm a better writer than my
1:30:20wife, but I'm not a better person, and
1:30:22she was usually right about practical
1:30:24things.
1:30:25>> Yeah.
1:30:27Yeah, how did you run your household if
1:30:28you're the absent-minded philosopher?
1:30:31Who's Who's paying the bills, fixing the
1:30:34sprinklers?
1:30:35>> We had to agree on the big decisions,
1:30:37one way or another.
1:30:39And we didn't We didn't have many
1:30:41arguments about the big decisions. We
1:30:44didn't have any philosophical or
1:30:45theological arguments. We didn't have
1:30:46many financial arguments.
1:30:49We had practical arguments.
1:30:51And on on the practical level, she was
1:30:52right almost all the time, and I was
1:30:54wrong.
1:30:54>> Yeah. I'm like that with my wife, too.
1:30:58Don't tell her I said that.
1:31:00>> So, the very thing that bothered me, her
1:31:02stubbornness, was a blessing.
1:31:04>> Mhm.
1:31:06Do you ever thank God that you never
1:31:07married a woman with your temperament?
1:31:10>> [sighs and gasps]
1:31:11>> Yes, actually Actually, at college,
1:31:16I knew
1:31:18I didn't I didn't do didn't date that
1:31:20much, but I knew a lot of
1:31:22girls there, and
1:31:24the [sighs and gasps]
1:31:26the ones that liked me
1:31:29were
1:31:30boring.
1:31:32And the pretty ones didn't like me that
1:31:35much.
1:31:36>> [gasps]
1:31:36>> And the smart ones were
1:31:38ugly, and the the pretty ones were
1:31:40[laughter] stupid.
1:31:43My wife was both.
1:31:45Both pretty and smart.
1:31:46>> Okay, I thought you'd say pretty and
1:31:48stupid.
1:31:48>> No.
1:31:49>> I wasn't going to correct you, but
1:31:52Mhm.
1:31:57>> That tendency that you just pointed out
1:32:00to say in marriage, "I'm right and
1:32:03you're wrong all the time. That
1:32:04assumption.
1:32:06That's terrifying because
1:32:08our attitude towards God comes mainly
1:32:11from our experience of our attitude
1:32:13towards other people.
1:32:15And if I'm right, you're wrong is your
1:32:19fall back position and you say that to
1:32:20God.
1:32:23>> Yeah, who says um
1:32:26in the in the some epistle, you know, if
1:32:29we if we how can we love our brother who
1:32:31we see if we don't
1:32:32>> Yeah.
1:32:33>> Sorry, how can we love God who we do not
1:32:35see if we cannot love our brother who we
1:32:36do see and
1:32:37your spouse is the closest person to you
1:32:39and if you can't actually
1:32:40>> Yes.
1:32:41>> ask forgiveness or
1:32:45Yeah, it's probably a good
1:32:48it's probably a good reflex for both the
1:32:50man and the woman to go
1:32:52I'm sorry. I you know, I think it was
1:32:54Josemaria Escriva who said something
1:32:56usually in these arguments, you're both
1:32:58wrong. To some degree.
1:33:00>> Yeah.
1:33:01>> Yeah.
1:33:02Was there any
1:33:03>> most marriage counselors say that.
1:33:06Every
1:33:07or nearly every marriage
1:33:09has uh
1:33:13faults on both sides.
1:33:16>> [sighs]
1:33:17>> Uh and the fact that they exist on both
1:33:19sides, the fact that both are wrong is
1:33:21much more important than
1:33:23uh any possible answer to the question,
1:33:25who's the most wrong.
1:33:26>> Yeah.
1:33:28>> I mean, if I'm going to go off the road
1:33:30into the ditch on the left and you're
1:33:31going to go off the road into the ditch
1:33:33to the right, does it matter which ditch
1:33:34is worse?
1:33:36>> Yeah, that's good.
1:33:38Did you Have you written a book on
1:33:39marriage?
1:33:40>> No.
1:33:40>> You've written a book on everything
1:33:41else.
1:33:41>> I'm not I'm not that practical.
1:33:43Any practical question, even even things
1:33:46like uh
1:33:47how to run a business or or or how to
1:33:50make money or or leadership or stuff
1:33:53like that, I
1:33:55I know I'm not
1:33:56>> Yeah.
1:33:57>> good at that stuff.
1:33:58>> But didn't you write a book Was it
1:34:00called after I'm gone?
1:34:03>> Oh, uh
1:34:04>> What was that?
1:34:06You've written so many books you forget.
1:34:07>> Yeah, that's Letters to my kids before I
1:34:10go.
1:34:11>> That's right. Yeah.
1:34:13>> No, that's that's not a theory of how to
1:34:15raise kids.
1:34:16>> Okay.
1:34:17>> It's just advice, practical advice on
1:34:19anything I want.
1:34:21>> Well, all right. Well, can I ask your
1:34:22advice on how to how to
1:34:25how to have a happy marriage?
1:34:27And what that even means or whether that
1:34:29should even be the goal?
1:34:30>> I wish you would ask an easier question
1:34:32like solve the problem of evil or
1:34:34explain the Trinity.
1:34:35>> [laughter]
1:34:37[gasps]
1:34:37>> How to have a happy marriage? Love.
1:34:40>> Maybe that's the wrong question. It
1:34:41depends what we mean by happiness,
1:34:42doesn't it?
1:34:43>> It does. It does.
1:34:45The
1:34:47the word Aristotle used for happiness,
1:34:49eudaimonia, the old Greek word,
1:34:51is very different than the modern word
1:34:53for happiness in English because
1:34:55uh it starts with EU which means good.
1:34:58So, you have to be good to be happy. You
1:35:00have to have virtue.
1:35:01And daimon means soul, so happiness is
1:35:04mainly in the soul, not in bodily
1:35:05things.
1:35:06And ia means a lasting state rather than
1:35:10a temporary feeling.
1:35:11>> Mhm.
1:35:11>> It's a way of making an adjective into a
1:35:13noun.
1:35:14>> Okay.
1:35:15>> So, his notion of happiness is
1:35:17uh
1:35:18to have a virtuous soul
1:35:20as your stable
1:35:23fallback position and foundation and and
1:35:25and personality.
1:35:26That doesn't sound like the modern
1:35:27notion of happiness.
1:35:29In fact, the old English word happen,
1:35:31which means chance,
1:35:33uh is the source of happiness.
1:35:35So, when you see when when we see
1:35:37somebody very happy,
1:35:38>> Like happen happenstance.
1:35:39>> Yeah, it just happens. Yeah.
1:35:41Uh when we see somebody very happy, the
1:35:43first thing we think of is saying, "What
1:35:44happened to you? You just won the
1:35:45lottery?"
1:35:46We think of games of chance.
1:35:48>> Yeah.
1:35:48>> The gifts of fortune. How shallow we
1:35:50are.
1:35:50>> Interesting.
1:35:52>> The saints are the happiest people in
1:35:54the world. They also suffer more than
1:35:55everybody else in the world.
1:35:57>> This time of year, people often think
1:35:59about vacations, plans, and the months
1:36:01ahead. I'm actually really pumped to be
1:36:03going with my family to Canada this
1:36:05summer. But, I think it's also a good
1:36:07time to ask a deeper question. What kind
1:36:09of legacy am I building? John probably
1:36:12wasn't thinking about legacy when he
1:36:14learned he was going to be a father. He
1:36:17was simply scared. He wondered if he was
1:36:19capable. He wondered if he was ready.
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1:37:19All right, let's do [snorts] a quick
1:37:20thought experiment. You have $25. You
1:37:22could spend it on lunch. You could spend
1:37:24it on another streaming subscription
1:37:26that you don't need. Or, you could spend
1:37:28it on a chance to win a 1962
1:37:31Chevrolet Corvette convertible while
1:37:34helping educate future Catholic priests.
1:37:37That seems like the obvious choice. This
1:37:39year, V8s for Vocations is celebrating
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1:37:45off a stunning red and white Corvette
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1:38:01seminary information in the Diocese of
1:38:03Gallup, one of the poorest dioceses in
1:38:06America. And let's be honest, a lot of
1:38:08people spend their time complaining
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1:38:12here's a practical way to do something
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1:38:17maybe win a classic Corvette in the
1:38:20process. I'm so grateful, of course, to
1:38:23all of the priests in my life. There
1:38:25were There was a bishop in my life when
1:38:26I was young, Bishop Eugene Hurley, who
1:38:28made such a profound impact on me and my
1:38:31faith.
1:38:32Um thank God for priests. So, this this
1:38:34seems like a great and worthwhile uh
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1:38:47and enter today. I think I know the
1:38:49answer to this, but I'd like you to talk
1:38:50about it. Was the Was the blessed and
1:38:52sorrowful mother at the foot of the
1:38:53cross
1:38:55happier than a man in a drug-fueled orgy
1:38:58right now?
1:38:59>> Of course.
1:39:00>> Yeah.
1:39:01And why?
1:39:03>> He's blessed.
1:39:05>> Who?
1:39:05>> Blessed. B L E S S E Blessed.
1:39:08>> The man in the drug-fueled orgy?
1:39:09>> No, the other one.
1:39:11>> he's blessed. I'm talking about the
1:39:12sorrowful mother. The sorrowful mother.
1:39:13>> blessed. We're being blessed by our
1:39:14sorrows.
1:39:17>> Doesn't that just
1:39:17>> Sacrifices are God's kisses.
1:39:19>> I think that example, though, the
1:39:21sorrowing woman, the mother at the foot
1:39:23of the cross, and this individual
1:39:26to say that she's happy and he's not.
1:39:29>> himself [snorts] answers that question
1:39:30through his angel. Blessed art thou
1:39:32among women.
1:39:33>> Mhm.
1:39:34>> And blessed is the fruit of thy womb,
1:39:35Jesus. No two people ever suffered more
1:39:38than Mary and Jesus. No two people were
1:39:40ever more blessed than Mary and Jesus.
1:39:44>> So, when I say, "How do we have a happy
1:39:46marriage?" What should I be asking?
1:39:48>> How do we have a blessed marriage?
1:39:49>> Or good How do we be good?
1:39:51>> Yeah.
1:39:52>> A good marriage.
1:39:53>> Yeah.
1:39:56>> All right, how do you have a good
1:39:57marriage?
1:39:59>> Don't take shortcuts. Repent when you
1:40:01do.
1:40:03>> You choose to have a good marriage.
1:40:06Happiness is something that you choose,
1:40:09not something that happens to you.
1:40:12Uh you're responsible for your own
1:40:14happiness.
1:40:17If you truly love and practice all the
1:40:19virtues that come from love, you will be
1:40:21happy. You may not be contented. You may
1:40:23not have a lot of uh uh
1:40:26obvious pleasures.
1:40:28Uh you're you're may you may lack
1:40:31uh peace.
1:40:33>> [sighs]
1:40:33>> Uh but not the deepest kind of peace.
1:40:36Uh you may have a hard life, but you
1:40:38will have a happy life.
1:40:41You may live in sub-Saharan Africa
1:40:42instead of Scandinavia, but you will be
1:40:44happy.
1:40:46>> Mhm.
1:40:47>> Poor people are happy. Jesus says,
1:40:48"Blessed are the poor."
1:40:52And poor in spirit doesn't mean
1:40:54spiritually poor.
1:40:56Doesn't mean spiritually weak. It means
1:40:59literally blessed are those who have
1:41:01very little money.
1:41:04Blessed are the peasants.
1:41:05Blessed are are the poor.
1:41:07Why are they blessed? Well, poverty is
1:41:09itself a blessing.
1:41:11Money's a temptation.
1:41:13Power's a temptation.
1:41:14Uh too much freedom is a temptation.
1:41:18Who are the suicides? The rich and
1:41:19powerful.
1:41:21The
1:41:21>> [laughter]
1:41:22>> the famous.
1:41:23>> Fascinating, isn't it?
1:41:24>> What What every teenager wants to be.
1:41:26The world's most famous rapper or or or
1:41:29or
1:41:30>> movie star or yeah.
1:41:32>> And they have a very low life
1:41:33expectancy.
1:41:35And they commit suicide very
1:41:38Why do they do that? Because they're not
1:41:40blessed.
1:41:41They're not blessed by God.
1:41:43They don't have God in their hearts.
1:41:48And the same God who
1:41:50>> [sighs and gasps]
1:41:52>> who is the supreme source of happiness
1:41:54is the God who wants sacrifice.
1:41:57He wants you to die to self-will.
1:42:00That's the great paradox. The only way
1:42:02you can get your deepest will is to die
1:42:05to all your other wills.
1:42:07If your deepest will is to be like God,
1:42:10to be God-like,
1:42:12then you have to sacrifice a lot of
1:42:14things.
1:42:15And that's part of happiness.
1:42:18But sacrifices has hurt.
1:42:19So hurts are part of happiness part of
1:42:22happiness.
1:42:25I think if we only took Jesus literally,
1:42:27>> [snorts]
1:42:28>> we'd understand [laughter] him much
1:42:29better. Blessed are the poor. What do
1:42:31you mean by poor? Those who have a low
1:42:33income.
1:42:34>> [laughter]
1:42:35>> No, that can't be what he means. No, no,
1:42:36you can't possibly
1:42:38get some Jesuit theologian here to do a
1:42:40little dance around it.
1:42:42That's not scholarly.
1:42:46>> Well, then if that is true and we do
1:42:48take him literally, wouldn't we quit our
1:42:50jobs and sell our homes?
1:42:51>> Francis happier after he gave away all
1:42:54his riches or before?
1:42:56>> Yeah, but if he wasn't called to, he
1:42:57wouldn't have been.
1:42:59>> That's true.
1:43:01So God has to call us. God has to
1:43:04intervene. God can't just wait until we
1:43:07figure it out for ourselves.
1:43:13>> [sighs]
1:43:17>> Do you read any good spiritual books?
1:43:20Do you read spiritual books? I know you
1:43:22I think you said The Practice of the
1:43:23Presence of God by Brother Lawrence.
1:43:25>> Brother Lawrence, yeah. Yeah.
1:43:27I like a lot of passages in De
1:43:29Caussade's Abandonment to Divine
1:43:31Providence, which says pretty much the
1:43:32same thing.
1:43:33>> Mhm.
1:43:34>> The first time I read Faustina's diary,
1:43:36I wasn't impressed. I thought it was
1:43:37much too sentimental.
1:43:39>> Mhm.
1:43:39>> I I
1:43:41it's it's a fault, but uh
1:43:43it sounds like a you know, what a
1:43:45teenage girl might might write.
1:43:48And then I discovered that Dorothy Day
1:43:50says the same thing in her writings.
1:43:53First time she read the diary, she
1:43:54thought the same thing.
1:43:56And then uh
1:43:58second time, it blew her road.
1:44:00Thomas Merton says the same thing about
1:44:02the little flower, Therese of Lisieux.
1:44:04>> Yep.
1:44:06>> And when I read that in The Seven Storey
1:44:08Mountain,
1:44:09I said, "Well, I'm thinking of becoming
1:44:11a Catholic, and I'm reading some of the
1:44:13saints, and I just read St. John of the
1:44:14Cross, and he's a brilliant brilliant uh
1:44:17philosopher, a Thomist, uh and a great
1:44:19poet.
1:44:20Uh
1:44:21and um
1:44:23uh
1:44:23>> [sighs and gasps]
1:44:24>> it's just the opposite of St. Teresa,
1:44:26personally. So, so I'll try the same
1:44:28experiment that Merton does.
1:44:30>> [snorts]
1:44:30>> And uh and I read The Little Flowers, uh
1:44:33Story of a Soul, autobiography, and I
1:44:35read it through very quickly the first
1:44:37time, and I got the same impression,
1:44:38much too sentimental, not my thing.
1:44:40>> Yeah.
1:44:41>> Then I read it a second time, and I was
1:44:42just as blown away as as Merton was.
1:44:45So, I think Faustina is in that same
1:44:48tradition.
1:44:52It's it's like
1:44:55of all the books that C. S. Lewis wrote,
1:44:57I think his greatest is the one that
1:44:59most people don't like the most when
1:45:01they first read it, Till We Have Faces.
1:45:03>> Mhm.
1:45:05>> Uh and the more you read it, the more
1:45:07you think it's his masterpiece.
1:45:09>> That's what he thought, didn't he?
1:45:10>> And he was right. He was right.
1:45:12Well, that's I think true of the simple
1:45:15saints like um
1:45:17like Therese of Lisieux and and
1:45:19Faustina.
1:45:20>> Mhm.
1:45:22Do you know I was in Lithuania last
1:45:23week, and I was kneeling before the
1:45:25Divine Mercy image.
1:45:29>> [sighs and gasps]
1:45:29>> The fact that the art isn't that great.
1:45:32>> Well, that one is. I find that one. That
1:45:34was painted by
1:45:36>> Sister Faustina herself was disappointed
1:45:38by by the picture of Jesus.
1:45:39>> Well, apparently the fellow who was
1:45:41commissioned by her spiritual father to
1:45:43paint it
1:45:44got so fed up with Faustina, who would
1:45:46visit with him once or twice a week to
1:45:48kind of give him direction, that he
1:45:49threatened to quit.
1:45:50>> Yeah.
1:45:51>> And the spiritual director begged him
1:45:52not to.
1:45:53And the artist said, "All right. Well,
1:45:56I'd like you to pose with a cassock, a
1:45:59white cassock." And that's that's how
1:46:00that happened, but
1:46:01>> Oh.
1:46:02>> But you know, there's those two images,
1:46:03right? The one in in Vilnius Vilnius is
1:46:07I think it's beautiful. But then there's
1:46:09another one
1:46:10is terrible.
1:46:11It's just as popular.
1:46:12>> All the ones that I've seen are not that
1:46:15good. They're not terrible,
1:46:16>> Mhm.
1:46:17>> but they're not that great.
1:46:18>> That's got to be Yeah, keep going.
1:46:19>> But
1:46:20>> [sighs]
1:46:20>> Faustina herself said, "No,
1:46:23it'll have to do, but it's not as
1:46:24beautiful as what I saw."
1:46:25>> Of course. I mean, what do you expect
1:46:27from the man?
1:46:27>> Yeah. Well, that's like children at
1:46:29Fatima say, "You can't possibly You
1:46:31can't possibly explain how beautiful
1:46:33Mary is."
1:46:33>> Well, especially you see some of these
1:46:34statues. I don't think you can
1:46:37It They're terrible. A lot of statues to
1:46:39the Blessed Mother from from Fatima.
1:46:42>> You have one of my favorite there.
1:46:43>> This one here?
1:46:44>> Vladimir
1:46:45No, the the one with the black There it
1:46:47is.
1:46:49>> Oh, you like that, yeah.
1:46:50>> Yes.
1:46:50>> Yeah. Icons are beautiful, aren't they?
1:46:53When angels are depicted in icons,
1:46:56Eastern icons, they're beautiful. The
1:46:58western depictions
1:46:59>> Yeah.
1:46:59>> I find often aren't that good.
1:47:00>> Yes. Yes. We can all learn a lot from
1:47:02the East.
1:47:03>> Yeah.
1:47:06I I met the patriarch of Constantinople
1:47:08while I was there.
1:47:09>> Did you?
1:47:09>> That was an honor.
1:47:10>> Wow.
1:47:12>> He was very fatherly
1:47:14and and lovely. Yeah.
1:47:16>> You know, both um
1:47:18both John Paul II and Benedict said that
1:47:20their priority was reunion with the
1:47:23And if they didn't do that, they were a
1:47:25a failure. They were very high on that.
1:47:27>> So, they were both failures?
1:47:29>> We're making progress.
1:47:30>> You think so? Yeah.
1:47:31>> Well, progress to the East means within
1:47:33a millennium.
1:47:34>> Yeah.
1:47:35>> Right. That's right. That's right.
1:47:38>> Yeah. That'll be interesting, hey?
1:47:40>> Oh, I think as as as Western
1:47:42civilization gets more decadent, the
1:47:44church will have to reunite much better.
1:47:47>> Yeah.
1:47:48>> We can't afford to fight civil wars when
1:47:50we got a world war on.
1:47:51>> I could see us maybe Is it Is it
1:47:53possible to to reconcile with the
1:47:55Greeks, but not the Russians? Cuz that I
1:47:57don't see that happening.
1:47:58>> It depends on the personality of
1:48:01uh yeah, the
1:48:02present Russian Orthodox. Kirill doesn't
1:48:04seem like he's terribly questionable.
1:48:06>> questionable with the with the West.
1:48:09But
1:48:11he also might be something of a puppet,
1:48:13Kirill.
1:48:14>> But the pluralism in different forms
1:48:16that exist already in the West and exist
1:48:18already in the East uh can accommodate a
1:48:22pluralism of East and West together in
1:48:24the same way.
1:48:25>> Well, it was interesting. When I was in
1:48:26Ukraine a couple of years ago, you'll go
1:48:28into these churches and there's not the
1:48:30same defensive posture over there toward
1:48:33Western devotions as there are in
1:48:35Eastern churches in the West. Now, I I
1:48:38understand the need to be defensive.
1:48:41I [snorts] I understand the need for
1:48:42Eastern Catholics to be defensive
1:48:43against Western devotions. It's the same
1:48:46reason Quebec has to be defensive about
1:48:48keeping French. They'll be swallowed up
1:48:49with English otherwise. So, I understand
1:48:51it, but it was interesting to be in
1:48:53Ukraine and to go into churches that had
1:48:56icons everywhere and a statue of the
1:48:57Blessed Virgin Mary and the rosaries
1:48:59hanging off the back of pews and
1:49:02this mixture of
1:49:03>> I don't think there's any theological
1:49:04reason.
1:49:06Uh the Filioque is is
1:49:10Well, many
1:49:11many uh
1:49:13Eastern Orthodox Christians believe uh
1:49:16in the Filioque. They just don't have to
1:49:17put it in their creed.
1:49:18>> Yeah.
1:49:18>> I think it's mainly political. We
1:49:20weren't there when you put it in. That's
1:49:22the main thing.
1:49:23>> And we're upset about it.
1:49:24>> Yeah.
1:49:25>> What's your favorite drink?
1:49:27>> Single malt scotch.
1:49:29>> Is this Do you like this? You can say
1:49:30you hate it if you don't.
1:49:31>> No, this is very good.
1:49:33>> Do you like the peatiness?
1:49:34>> I love the peatiness. You're You're
1:49:36drinking Scotland itself.
1:49:38You're drinking the soil.
1:49:39>> We have to cover this up for legal
1:49:41reasons.
1:49:42>> Okay.
1:49:43>> But it is Lagavulin 16 for those who
1:49:45will ask. Unless I'm not allowed to say
1:49:47that, in which case they will blur that
1:49:48out.
1:49:48>> It's very difficult to abuse because you
1:49:51you can't drink a pint of this and
1:49:53survive.
1:49:54>> You shouldn't.
1:49:54>> And you have to drink it very slowly.
1:49:56>> I remember a a priest saying to me,
1:49:58"This is the best advice I got." He
1:50:00said, "You don't drink scotch, you taste
1:50:02it."
1:50:03Mhm, that's helpful.
1:50:04>> That's very good.
1:50:05>> Did you ever get into
1:50:07pipe smoking or cigars or any of these
1:50:09other
1:50:09>> No.
1:50:11No, I never tried pipes or cigars. Tried
1:50:13cigarettes, didn't like them. No
1:50:15problem.
1:50:18>> It's funny how the attitude towards
1:50:19smoking has changed in a generation.
1:50:22>> Yeah.
1:50:23A generation can change about one of
1:50:26their favorite habits.
1:50:28That's encouraging.
1:50:30>> Well, no, I
1:50:31>> [laughter]
1:50:31>> I think I meant it the other way around.
1:50:33What I mean is
1:50:34>> Well, it is unhealthy, of course. It's
1:50:35lung cancer.
1:50:36>> Yeah, yeah, but I'm okay with it. Um
1:50:39like I my son I I I saw someone showed
1:50:41me like he's smoking cigarettes. I'm
1:50:43okay.
1:50:44Is he fornicating? No, okay, well, good.
1:50:46>> Yeah.
1:50:46>> Um but it is interesting like in the
1:50:48'90s
1:50:49>> It's like eating too much butter.
1:50:51It's not a sin, but it's just unhealthy.
1:50:53You're You're taking a risk. It may be a
1:50:54worthy risk if you really like
1:50:56>> But what's interesting is
1:50:57>> love bacon. Okay?
1:50:59>> Yes.
1:50:59>> Uh I'm taking medication for for bad
1:51:02cholesterol, okay? So, I shouldn't drink
1:51:06uh eat as much bacon as I do, but I
1:51:07think it's worth it. I'm old. I'm going
1:51:09to die anyway, so I'll have two slices
1:51:11of bacon instead of one this morning.
1:51:13>> Thank you very much. So, even going to
1:51:14take a photo and send it to my doctor.
1:51:16>> So you can smoke a cigarette if you
1:51:17want. It doesn't doesn't bother me.
1:51:19>> I The first time I met you, I was on the
1:51:22phone with you. My old studio was in
1:51:24Atlanta, and you were on your way up,
1:51:26and I said, "Dr. Crave, I'll get you
1:51:28some lunch before we begin. What would
1:51:29you like?" And you said, "Oh, I don't
1:51:32know. Something unhealthy. Fried."
1:51:34>> Yeah.
1:51:35>> Yeah. I thought, "All right. Yeah.
1:51:36Here's a fella. He's not too concerned."
1:51:39>> [laughter]
1:51:40>> Health is more important than money, but
1:51:41it's much much less important than
1:51:42virtue.
1:51:45>> Yeah.
1:51:47Are you on a strict diet?
1:51:48>> No.
1:51:49No.
1:51:50God has blessed me not only with
1:51:53a long life and
1:51:55a skinny body, but with
1:51:57a stomach that can digest almost
1:51:59anything. I have no food restrictions at
1:52:01all.
1:52:02>> Very good.
1:52:04Do you teach full-time at Boston
1:52:06College, and when do you
1:52:07>> Yeah, why not? Why retire?
1:52:09>> Well, I don't know. Why not? You're old.
1:52:11You're old.
1:52:12>> So what?
1:52:13>> Well, you might not be able to keep up
1:52:14with the doing something
1:52:15>> I'm doing something important. I'm doing
1:52:17it well, and I enjoy doing it.
1:52:19>> And I'm glad that you are, and I'm sure
1:52:20your students are thrilled that you are.
1:52:22I just thought it was a lot of probably
1:52:23a lot of work at some point, wouldn't it
1:52:24be?
1:52:26Too much work?
1:52:27>> Yeah, but almost all of it is good work.
1:52:29>> Do you have teaching assistants that
1:52:30help with No?
1:52:31>> No, I don't trust them. Last one I had,
1:52:33many years ago,
1:52:35um
1:52:36I had a course on C.S. Lewis, and there
1:52:38were, I think, 80 people in it. Very
1:52:41large course.
1:52:42Uh and for the take-home mid-semester,
1:52:45uh
1:52:46we had read The Chronicles of Narnia as
1:52:49half of the first semester. Uh
1:52:52I
1:52:53gave them this question.
1:52:55Compare and contrast the figure of Jesus
1:52:58in the Gospels with the figure of Aslan
1:53:00in The Chronicles of Narnia.
1:53:03And my teaching assistant was supposed
1:53:05to mark those mid-semesters, and she
1:53:06came to me and said, "I can't mark the
1:53:08mid-semesters. You'll have to do it
1:53:09yourself or find somebody else." I said,
1:53:10"Why?" She said, "Because I've never
1:53:12read the Gospels." I said, "Why not?"
1:53:13She said, "I'm a Marxist."
1:53:17So, I had to write them all
1:53:19mark them all myself.
1:53:20>> Goodness gracious.
1:53:21>> Now, that's an extreme example of not
1:53:22trusting your assistant.
1:53:23>> Especially when she's a Marxist.
1:53:25>> But,
1:53:26you know, my students are all sort of
1:53:28sort of like my children.
1:53:30Uh
1:53:32at least in the intellectual sphere. So,
1:53:34I don't really trust anybody else's
1:53:37judgment on their essays. So, I do them
1:53:38myself.
1:53:40>> How do you
1:53:42um
1:53:44What do you do with regards to AI now
1:53:46and the fact that students are using AI?
1:53:48>> very creative multiple-choice tests,
1:53:51which 95% of the students
1:53:54uh
1:53:55>> [sighs and gasps]
1:53:57>> respond well to in that I think they are
1:54:01uh
1:54:02instruments not just of of testing
1:54:04whether they have read and remember the
1:54:06stuff, but whether they understand it.
1:54:09Uh
1:54:10>> Can't they just put it into
1:54:11>> There are 5% who are brilliant writers
1:54:14and write brilliant essays that I can
1:54:17tell are original and do terribly on the
1:54:19multiple-choice tests because some
1:54:20people just can't handle multiple-choice
1:54:22tests. So, I make allowances for them.
1:54:25And uh I don't require
1:54:28um
1:54:29take-home essays.
1:54:31Uh unless I can formulate the question
1:54:33in such a way that it's very difficult
1:54:35for AI to to do it in a way that I can't
1:54:37detect.
1:54:38>> How can you Can you tell when people
1:54:40write papers with AI?
1:54:42Write {quote} {unquote}.
1:54:43>> More than most people can, I think. I'm
1:54:45very good at intuiting that.
1:54:46>> Okay.
1:54:47>> I'm not by any means an expert on it or
1:54:49even that familiar with it, but when I
1:54:51see
1:54:52>> [sighs and gasps]
1:54:53>> when I see that they're following all
1:54:55the rules,
1:54:57they're either letting AI do it or
1:54:59they're they're doing it by the book.
1:55:00>> Oh, I see.
1:55:02>> Yeah.
1:55:03So, it's not infallible, but it's it's
1:55:05it's workable.
1:55:06>> How How do you think professors are
1:55:08going to have to change to adapt to
1:55:10this? I said to you before we came in
1:55:12here that I would have them stand up and
1:55:14do oral presentations.
1:55:15>> I don't know.
1:55:16>> Is that Would that just take too long?
1:55:18Is that the problem with that?
1:55:19I would think that public shaming would
1:55:21be enough to incentivize somebody to
1:55:23actually study.
1:55:24>> [laughter]
1:55:25>> I don't think it is. People People have
1:55:27very little shame nowadays.
1:55:29>> Uh
1:55:30>> I don't know. I I
1:55:34I'm different. I'm weird. I have a weird
1:55:35brain. When I
1:55:37When I took the G graduate record exams,
1:55:40uh the examiner said, "You're the most
1:55:42unbalanced answer I ever saw. You You
1:55:45scored a 100 on the verbal part, and you
1:55:49barely passed the math part."
1:55:51>> Mhm.
1:55:51>> That's right brain versus left brain.
1:55:55So, I can intuitively sense, I think, uh
1:55:59when something's AI better than most
1:56:01people can, but although not infallibly.
1:56:03>> Have you used AI yourself?
1:56:05>> No.
1:56:05>> No.
1:56:06>> No.
1:56:09>> We probably have professors grading
1:56:10things by AI.
1:56:12>> Oh, yeah.
1:56:13>> That's both of them. No one's doing
1:56:14work.
1:56:16>> Yeah.
1:56:19I once was part of an experiment, uh
1:56:23>> [sighs]
1:56:24>> somebody came in to Boston College and
1:56:26sought me out because they knew that I'd
1:56:28written on C. S. Lewis,
1:56:30and they were using Lewis as an example
1:56:32of the experiment they were doing.
1:56:35What they were doing is trying to find
1:56:36out whether
1:56:37uh
1:56:39when a dead writer has discovered to
1:56:42have written
1:56:44apparently written somethings that have
1:56:46been unpublished, but it couldn't be
1:56:48proved that the dead writer actually
1:56:50wrote it. It could've been a uh
1:56:52>> Mhm.
1:56:53>> a copy or a an imitation.
1:56:56Uh
1:56:57who had the authority to detect whether
1:56:59this is really from C.S. Lewis or not.
1:57:01>> Mhm.
1:57:02>> And they were specializing in C.S. Lewis
1:57:04because he had written so much.
1:57:06And the stuff that he had written but
1:57:08never published was a big pile that his
1:57:10brother set fire to one day
1:57:13>> Oh.
1:57:13>> because he knew that Lewis's brother
1:57:15didn't want them published.
1:57:16>> He knew Lewis didn't want it.
1:57:18>> Lewis didn't want them published. He
1:57:19didn't think they were that good. Walter
1:57:21Hooper came on the fire
1:57:23before it destroyed all the manuscripts
1:57:24and he rescued a lot of them.
1:57:27Maybe 10 or 20.
1:57:28And they've since been published. The
1:57:30others are lost forever. One was a set
1:57:32of Socratic dialogues.
1:57:33>> What?
1:57:34>> Which is one of the reasons I started
1:57:35writing Socratic dialogues. Lewis did
1:57:38it, I can do it, too.
1:57:39>> Wow.
1:57:39>> Anyway, this this researcher came here
1:57:42and came to BC and said,
1:57:44"Would you take
1:57:46You've read all of C.S. Lewis, you know
1:57:47him pretty well.
1:57:49Can you do this for me?" I said, "Sure.
1:57:51What's what's the test?" He said, "Well,
1:57:53here are
1:57:54here are 10
1:57:56uh, paragraphs
1:57:57uh, [sighs]
1:57:58each of which claims to be written by
1:58:00C.S. Lewis.
1:58:02Tell me which one was.
1:58:04Nine of them was not and the other one
1:58:06was and I know which ones they are, but
1:58:08you don't.
1:58:09You've never read these before. They're
1:58:11all unpublished.
1:58:11>> Yep.
1:58:13>> And they were on a variety of topics.
1:58:14You couldn't tell from the content, only
1:58:16from the style.
1:58:18>> So, I read them very quickly
1:58:20right in front of him.
1:58:21Uh, and he said, "No, you take take take
1:58:22them home and meditate on it." I said,
1:58:24"No, no, it's very clear. Number seven
1:58:25is C.S. Lewis and the others are not."
1:58:27He said, "How'd you know that?"
1:58:29I said, "I don't know. It's just his
1:58:30style."
1:58:31>> Yeah.
1:58:33>> Well, that's the intuition kicking in.
1:58:37I'm good at intuiting patterns.
1:58:39But, I'm I'm not good at scholarship and
1:58:43and and putting my nose in a library
1:58:45book all day to get a lot of footnotes
1:58:47and that sort of thing.
1:58:49Or even thinking more than a move or to
1:58:51head and chest.
1:58:52>> Mhm.
1:58:53>> So,
1:58:55I've got an
1:58:56advantage in the AI. I think I can
1:58:58detect their their style.
1:59:00>> Did you ever meet Walter Hooper?
1:59:01>> Oh, yes. Yes, wonderful gentleman.
1:59:03Absolutely wonderful.
1:59:05>> He is the godfather of a friend of mine,
1:59:07Jacob Imam.
1:59:09From Steubenville, Ohio, but Jacob
1:59:10studied in Oxford, got his doctorate
1:59:12there.
1:59:13Did Walter tell you some stories about
1:59:15Lewis that you can share with us?
1:59:21>> He was
1:59:22>> Lewis's secretary, is that right?
1:59:23>> Yes, of course. The last year of his
1:59:24life.
1:59:26Um
1:59:29I recall that he did, but I forget what
1:59:31they were now.
1:59:32>> Yeah.
1:59:34>> However, I do have some stories about
1:59:36Tolkien from one of his students who
1:59:37taught me English at Calvin College.
1:59:40>> Tell me everything.
1:59:42>> [sighs]
1:59:42>> Well, first of all, he was a very poor
1:59:44lecturer.
1:59:45>> Okay.
1:59:46>> Uh but people would come and throng to
1:59:48him anyway
1:59:49because if you sat in the front row, you
1:59:51could understand him. But if not,
1:59:53probably not because he mumbled.
1:59:54>> He did mumble, yeah.
1:59:56>> Uh and he taught a required course on um
2:00:00Old English, which in his day was
2:00:02required for all literature majors.
2:00:05Uh and the first day of the course, he
2:00:08uh came in with a very large wagon piled
2:00:11high with books and manuscripts.
2:00:13And uh he was rather tall and strong and
2:00:17uh
2:00:18got that wagon up on the the platform.
2:00:21And he said, "See this?
2:00:25You don't want to read all these books,
2:00:27but you will. You don't want to be in
2:00:28this course, but you are.
2:00:30You you are required to take Old English
2:00:33and you don't see why you should should
2:00:35read it because there's nothing other
2:00:36than Beowulf that's any good in it
2:00:39according to you.
2:00:40Uh so, I am going to try to make you
2:00:43fall in love
2:00:45with not only these manuscripts, but
2:00:48with my uh specialty, which is
2:00:49philology, which is the love of words.
2:00:53And uh
2:00:54my teacher, George Harper, said we were
2:00:56very skeptical, but we were obedient, so
2:00:59we
2:01:00uh we followed him.
2:01:02And [gasps] he although he was a bad
2:01:03lecturer, he was a very good um
2:01:06um
2:01:08tutor,
2:01:09because he would he would spend extra
2:01:12hours with students, and he would wander
2:01:13off into what he really loved. And that
2:01:16would seep into his lectures. So, those
2:01:18in the front row got a a treat, because
2:01:20they would uh
2:01:22get him to go off onto these tangents,
2:01:24which were fascinating.
2:01:26Uh and at the end of the course,
2:01:28uh
2:01:29he uh instead of giving a last lecture,
2:01:32>> Mhm.
2:01:33>> he gave a lecture of a single sentence.
2:01:36He had the wagon,
2:01:38and all the books were piled in the
2:01:39wagon, and again, he put all the books
2:01:41up onto the uh
2:01:43the podium.
2:01:45And then, he
2:01:47threw the wagon down, and all the
2:01:49manuscripts scattered on the floor.
2:01:51He said, "You don't need them now.
2:01:54They're in your heart."
2:01:55>> Huh.
2:01:55>> And then he left.
2:01:56>> Wow. That's pretty theatrical.
2:01:58>> Yes.
2:01:59>> I want to find this excellent article
2:02:03that Have you seen what Tolkien wrote
2:02:05about staying married?
2:02:08And uh
2:02:09>> I know his letter to Christopher about
2:02:11the Blessed Sacrament.
2:02:12>> beautiful.
2:02:13>> Isn't that beautiful?
2:02:17>> Yeah, he wrote this to Christopher. "I
2:02:18never called Edith Lúthien, but she was
2:02:21the source of the story that in time
2:02:23became the chief part of The
2:02:24Silmarillion.
2:02:26It was first conceived in a small
2:02:27woodland glade filled with hemlocks at
2:02:30Roos in Yorkshire, where I was for a
2:02:32brief time in command of an outpost of
2:02:35the Humber garrison in 1917,
2:02:37and she was able to live with me for a
2:02:39while. In those days, her hair was
2:02:41raven, her skin clear, her eyes brighter
2:02:44than you have seen them, and she could
2:02:45sing and dance.
2:02:47That's beautiful, huh?
2:02:49>> You know that word Luthien is the single
2:02:51word on his wife's gravestone.
2:02:52>> Really?
2:02:55Tell us more.
2:02:57Or is that it?
2:02:58>> That's it.
2:02:58>> Okay, then.
2:03:01Secrets to a lasting marriage. He said
2:03:04something pretty Listen to this. Men are
2:03:07not monogamous, no good pretending. Men
2:03:09just ain't, not by their nature.
2:03:11>> Mhm.
2:03:12>> That's good, huh?
2:03:13>> Mhm.
2:03:14>> Let's see if I can find this.
2:03:18There you go. All right, not by their
2:03:19animal nature. Monogamy, although it has
2:03:21been fundamental to our inherited ideas,
2:03:24is for us men a piece of revealed ethic
2:03:26according to faith and not the flesh.
2:03:28The essence of a fallen world is that
2:03:30the best cannot be attained by free
2:03:32enjoyment or by what is called
2:03:34self-realization, usually a nice name
2:03:36for self-indulgence, wholly inimical to
2:03:38the realization of other selves, but by
2:03:41denial, by suffering. Faithfulness in
2:03:44Christian marriages entails that great
2:03:46mortification. And here's the last short
2:03:49paragraph, and then I'd love your take
2:03:50on it.
2:03:52For a Christian man, there is no escape.
2:03:55Marriage may help to sanctify and direct
2:03:57to its proper object his sexual desires.
2:04:01Its grace may help him in the struggle,
2:04:03but the struggle remains. It will not
2:04:05satisfy him as hunger may be kept off by
2:04:08regular meals. It will offer as many
2:04:10difficulties to the purity proper to
2:04:13that state as it provides easments. Did
2:04:16you get that last sentence?
2:04:18It will offer as many difficulties to
2:04:20the purity proper to that state as it
2:04:23provides easments.
2:04:24>> Mhm.
2:04:26>> Your thoughts?
2:04:27>> A wise man.
2:04:28>> A wise man. I love how
2:04:29>> Why don't we hear that anymore? That
2:04:31used to be the standard
2:04:34by which we measured other
2:04:37pieces of advice.
2:04:38>> What do you mean?
2:04:40>> It's very traditional. He's saying what
2:04:42all the saints said.
2:04:44But we don't hear it anymore.
2:04:46>> What part or what do you mean?
2:04:48I mean many of the saints that we read
2:04:50on the way
2:04:50>> is the fact the fact that marriage is is
2:04:54the primary school of sanctity.
2:04:56>> Mhm.
2:04:57>> That marriage is not for happiness. It's
2:05:00it's for for the good.
2:05:03At least not happiness in the modern
2:05:04sense.
2:05:05>> I suppose that's perhaps why adultery
2:05:07and divorce are so prevalent. If I
2:05:09believe that marriage exists for my
2:05:11happiness, commonly understood today,
2:05:14then I've got it wrong and should start
2:05:16again. It's the only logical conclusion.
2:05:17>> last thing Lewis ever wrote, shortly
2:05:20before his death, was a an essay
2:05:22entitled We have no right to happiness.
2:05:27And
2:05:28>> [sighs]
2:05:28>> he says that when people say they have a
2:05:30right to happiness to justify their
2:05:32affairs or their divorces, they always
2:05:34mean sexual happiness,
2:05:36not any other kind.
2:05:38>> Mhm.
2:05:38>> Uh and it's absurd to think that
2:05:40>> Pleasure is really what they're missing.
2:05:41Have a right to my pleasure.
2:05:42>> It's absurd to think we have a right to
2:05:44happiness. It's like saying we have a
2:05:45right to health or we have a right to
2:05:47riches.
2:05:48>> Mhm.
2:05:52>> Life, liberty, and the pursuit of
2:05:54happiness.
2:05:54>> [gasps]
2:05:55>> Is that a right?
2:05:58Life is a right.
2:06:00And liberty is a right.
2:06:02And private property is a right. And the
2:06:04original words in the declaration were
2:06:06life, liberty, and property.
2:06:08They changed it to the pursuit of
2:06:09happiness.
2:06:10>> [sighs]
2:06:10>> They must have got in a pop psychologist
2:06:13for a rewrite, man.
2:06:14>> Mhm.
2:06:16What do you think about therapeutic
2:06:17culture? Have you heard of this?
2:06:19I'm sure you know what I mean, but
2:06:21>> If you mean by that a culture that
2:06:24contains therapists when needed, good.
2:06:28If you mean by that that the whole of
2:06:30life is seen from the viewpoint of
2:06:31therapy,
2:06:32very bad.
2:06:36Because the point of therapy is simply
2:06:38peace, simply homeostasis,
2:06:41simply overcoming the obvious
2:06:44conflicts and unhappinesses that you
2:06:45have due to psychological reasons.
2:06:48And that's not the end of life.
2:06:51The end of life is God,
2:06:53not your own happiness.
2:06:56And if you don't know that, you won't be
2:06:57happy. And if you do know that, you
2:06:59will.
2:07:01Happiness, like life itself, can
2:07:04be can flourish only when it dies to
2:07:06itself and resurrects.
2:07:09>> What advice, I know I've asked this, but
2:07:11I want to take another swing at it,
2:07:13give you another opportunity. What
2:07:14advice do you have someone watching this
2:07:16who's newly married or who is about to
2:07:18be?
2:07:21>> [sighs]
2:07:24>> Do you think that when you are very old
2:07:28and your wife is very old and ugly and
2:07:31wrinkled
2:07:32and fat
2:07:34and not very bright or even nasty, that
2:07:39you will still find her beautiful?
2:07:41If so, if so, marry her.
2:07:47The last
2:07:49view I had of my wife
2:07:53in the nursing home
2:07:55about an hour after she died,
2:07:58I fell in love with her again.
2:08:01Here is a wasted, emaciated,
2:08:04wrinkled, suffering body.
2:08:10It's as beautiful as a crucifix.
2:08:27Cuz that body ain't going to last, but
2:08:29the soul is.
2:08:34So, if you don't love her soul, but
2:08:37just love her body,
2:08:38uh
2:08:40don't get married.
2:08:45>> [sighs]
2:08:55>> Sorry.
2:08:58Yes. [sighs]
2:09:07Mhm.
2:09:09>> Some stories
2:09:11have a great beginning
2:09:13and a great ending, but a lousy middle.
2:09:16And many movie trilogies
2:09:18uh start with a a good one,
2:09:20>> [snorts]
2:09:20>> and then they fall down in the second
2:09:22one, and maybe come up again in the
2:09:25third one.
2:09:26Um
2:09:27The Godfather is the opposite. The
2:09:28second one is the best one. That's the
2:09:30only series like that. Well, life
2:09:32>> terrible
2:09:32>> Life is a three-part drama.
2:09:34>> Okay.
2:09:34>> And the beginning is beautiful. And
2:09:36youth is beautiful.
2:09:37>> Yeah.
2:09:38>> Uh
2:09:39and death is also beautiful.
2:09:43>> Death is beautiful. Okay.
2:09:44>> Yes, it is, because death is the doorway
2:09:47to heaven.
2:09:48I mean, faith sees through that dark
2:09:50side of the door and sees the light.
2:09:52And the light is blinding to ordinary
2:09:54reason. That's what faith means,
2:09:56something that surpasses reason,
2:09:57something that seems to make no sense.
2:10:00But it does.
2:10:02Because we're upside down.
2:10:04And therefore, most of the mysteries of
2:10:06the faith are paradoxes, because they're
2:10:08right side up.
2:10:10And they look upside down to us, because
2:10:12we're upside down.
2:10:15>> Do you remember saying something like uh
2:10:18you said what why uh why do holy places
2:10:21always have to be dark places? What did
2:10:23you say there? Something like
2:10:25>> That's the question that the protagonist
2:10:27in Till We Have Faces asks.
2:10:30Uh
2:10:31why must faith be so mysterious?
2:10:35Isn't God capable of giving us adequate,
2:10:38clear,
2:10:39correct answers to the great questions
2:10:41of human life, like the problem of evil?
2:10:43And of course he is.
2:10:45He could have recited to Job chapter 1
2:10:48of the book of Job. At the end, when he
2:10:50showed up, he didn't.
2:10:51>> Mhm.
2:10:53>> He said basically, "What do you know
2:10:54anyway?
2:10:56>> Yeah.
2:10:57>> You're not me.
2:10:59Look what I made.
2:11:00Uh
2:11:01look
2:11:02>> [clears throat]
2:11:02>> look at nature, which is the other book
2:11:04I wrote, other than the Bible. I'm
2:11:06writing the Bible now, but Bible's going
2:11:08to talk about nature a lot.
2:11:11What's it got in it? It's got beasts.
2:11:12It's got monsters, Leviathan and
2:11:15Behemoth.
2:11:17I'm wild. I'm unpredictable.
2:11:20You just got to trust me.
2:11:22And your life is a wild and
2:11:23unpredictable.
2:11:24And I'm not going to explain it to you
2:11:26because I [snorts] want you to trust me.
2:11:28>> Mhm.
2:11:29>> Imagine if Romeo came to Juliet with a
2:11:32bunch of philosophers that explained why
2:11:33she was logically impelled to love him.
2:11:37Or a bunch of lawyers with a pre-nup.
2:11:39That wouldn't be romance.
2:11:40>> No.
2:11:41>> Wouldn't have done it as
2:11:42>> to be a leap in the dark.
2:11:46>> I Well, I thought that
2:11:48and I wonder what you think about this.
2:11:50It's probably not an original thought.
2:11:52>> Most great thoughts aren't.
2:11:54>> So, it probably isn't.
2:11:55>> [snorts]
2:11:55>> And I thought, well, okay, I think
2:11:57that's right. You know, you go into a
2:11:58lovely little chapel, you don't want it
2:12:00bright, you want it dark. But I think
2:12:02sex is like this.
2:12:04>> Of course it is.
2:12:04>> The reason we want a dark room isn't so
2:12:07that we can see less, it's so that we
2:12:09can see more.
2:12:10>> [gasps]
2:12:11>> Well, that is a brilliant thought.
2:12:13>> Don't you think that's right?
2:12:14>> I think that's absolutely
2:12:15>> Because actually the more you see of the
2:12:16human body, the less you see sometimes.
2:12:18If it was under neon lights.
2:12:20>> The ugliest thing I ever saw is this
2:12:21x-ray of the human body that has all the
2:12:23body parts. People are flocking to
2:12:25museums to see it.
2:12:26>> Yeah.
2:12:27>> It's It's It's like you rip the skin off
2:12:29somebody.
2:12:30>> Yeah.
2:12:31>> Uh the skin is the profoundest thing in
2:12:33us. It's the deepest thing in us.
2:12:36What I see in you right now is your
2:12:38beauty.
2:12:39The rest is all mechanism.
2:12:43>> Right.
2:12:44>> Here, that that machine that the wizard
2:12:47in the Wizard of Oz is operating with
2:12:49the levers, it's not beautiful.
2:12:51>> Mhm.
2:12:51>> But what the machine generates is
2:12:54apparent beauty.
2:12:57Well, your your bones and your your
2:13:00capillaries and all that stuff is like
2:13:02the machine.
2:13:04Uh and the profoundest thing about you
2:13:06is your face.
2:13:07We don't fall in love with people's
2:13:09bodies. We fall in love with people's
2:13:11faces.
2:13:11>> Mhm.
2:13:13That's right.
2:13:15>> So, the surface is the deepest thing.
2:13:18>> Yeah.
2:13:20Um let's talk more about sex. You've
2:13:23said three
2:13:24wonderfully insightful and funny things
2:13:26about sex.
2:13:28Which I will
2:13:29>> Did I really? My goodness.
2:13:30>> will lay out for you now, and then you
2:13:31can comment on them.
2:13:33Um I remember them. You said uh first
2:13:35thing you said, which I've always
2:13:36repeated, is the first commandment in
2:13:38the Bible from God to humanity is be
2:13:40fruitful and multiply. And by that, I do
2:13:42not think he meant grow pineapples and
2:13:44invent calculators.
2:13:46>> Yes.
2:13:47>> That's number one.
2:13:48Number two, you said asking
2:13:52Yeah, yeah, yeah, but can we have sex in
2:13:54heaven? Is like a little child asking
2:13:57her mother upon learning what sex is,
2:14:00Okay, Mom, but when I have sex, can I
2:14:02can I eat candy? And then the mother
2:14:04says
2:14:04>> from C. S. Lewis.
2:14:05>> Oh, is it?
2:14:05>> Yep.
2:14:05>> And the mother says, "Oh, darling, you
2:14:07won't want to."
2:14:08>> Yes.
2:14:08>> That's excellent.
2:14:09>> Yes.
2:14:09>> And And thirdly, you said um,
2:14:13"People think the Catholic Church views
2:14:15sex the way airports view smoking.
2:14:17Namely, all right, if you have to do it,
2:14:19will you at least do it in there?"
2:14:21Is that yours?
2:14:22>> No.
2:14:23>> Whose is that?
2:14:24>> It's just the opposite.
2:14:25>> No, but was that your saying?
2:14:26>> No, I never said that. No.
2:14:28>> I'm pretty Well, I'll I'll take it. I
2:14:29said it. Quote me. No, I didn't.
2:14:32>> [snorts]
2:14:32>> It's a Fredism.
2:14:34>> Fredism. What
2:14:35Okay, so there's a way that this could
2:14:37be interpreted that could sound crass. I
2:14:39hope you know I don't mean it that way.
2:14:40>> Of course.
2:14:40>> But what did you learn through the one
2:14:43through the through sex as a as a
2:14:45married man?
2:14:46What did it teach
2:14:47>> That it is a kind of knowledge.
2:14:50In fact, the Hebrew word for knowledge
2:14:51is not just a euphemism for sex. It
2:14:53means sex. Adam Adam and Eve Adam knew
2:14:56his wife Eve. The result was not a bit a
2:14:59book, but a baby.
2:15:02It's knowledge. The biggest thrill of
2:15:04sex is not simply the physical pleasure.
2:15:06It's the intimacy.
2:15:09This amazing, beautiful, and person
2:15:11allows me into his or her body in the
2:15:15most intimate possible way.
2:15:17A way in which no one else can can
2:15:19enter.
2:15:21The thrill of of of union, of of
2:15:24intimacy.
2:15:26>> [sighs]
2:15:26>> And I think that will be preserved in
2:15:28heaven.
2:15:29I don't think our bodies are going to
2:15:30use the sexual organs in heaven, but we
2:15:34will have a knowledge of each other that
2:15:36gives us that
2:15:38intimacy in a transformed and perfected
2:15:42and more passionate way than than
2:15:44physical sex does on earth.
2:15:46>> Do you think you'll know your wife in
2:15:47heaven?
2:15:48>> Absolutely.
2:15:49>> Do you Will you know her in a particular
2:15:50way?
2:15:51>> Oh, yes.
2:15:51>> Certain
2:15:52>> Of course.
2:15:52>> particular way, but in a in the
2:15:54>> That particularity is a good, and no
2:15:55good is lost in heaven. It's transformed
2:15:57and perfected.
2:15:58>> Mhm.
2:15:59I see.
2:16:01Mhm.
2:16:01>> Yes.
2:16:03I think
2:16:04the
2:16:05single primary
2:16:08cause of our cultural decline has got to
2:16:10be the sexual revolution.
2:16:13Because
2:16:14>> [sighs]
2:16:15>> that's the most non-negotiable thing on
2:16:17the part of the
2:16:19the revolutionaries.
2:16:21And I think that whenever the church
2:16:23finds a
2:16:25an evil, she
2:16:27invents a vaccine for it.
2:16:29And I think John Paul II's Theology of
2:16:32the Body is that vaccine. I think that
2:16:34is going to be the
2:16:36>> [sighs and gasps]
2:16:36>> the thing that is
2:16:40going to most powerfully heal society.
2:16:43George Weigel said that's that's the
2:16:45most important thing since Summa
2:16:46Theologica.
2:16:48He says a theological time bomb.
2:16:50And people who have discovered that
2:16:52almost always are deeply impressed and
2:16:54and
2:16:56find it it changed their life.
2:16:58>> My wife was a missionary in Canada with
2:17:00a group of other young adults and one
2:17:03day she was sick and so was in this
2:17:05church rectory where they all lived. I
2:17:07guess the priest wasn't there and
2:17:09but anyway, she was sick and had nothing
2:17:10to do and she found this collection of
2:17:12VHS tapes called Theology of the Body.
2:17:15She didn't know what that was, but she
2:17:16put it in and
2:17:18she said she was angry when she started
2:17:21listening to this because she thought,
2:17:23"Why didn't nobody tell me?"
2:17:25>> Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep.
2:17:30>> Why was the sexual revolution so
2:17:32catastrophic?
2:17:34>> First of all, because sex is the most
2:17:37powerful passion.
2:17:39Uh and and most difficult to stop
2:17:41motivator
2:17:42>> Mhm.
2:17:43>> for good or evil.
2:17:44Secondly, because sex is the origin of
2:17:46life, life itself.
2:17:50Third, because
2:17:51>> [sighs]
2:17:51>> the other side most
2:17:54effectively uses the sexual revolution
2:17:57and the destruction of traditional
2:17:59sexual morality
2:18:01uh to tear down families.
2:18:04And without families, no society can can
2:18:07there survive.
2:18:10>> Why is it the one as you put it
2:18:12non-negotiable?
2:18:16>> Because your idols need to be
2:18:17attractive.
2:18:19Uh,
2:18:20even [sighs and gasps]
2:18:22even money,
2:18:23which is very attractive because it can
2:18:25buy everything that money can buy, and
2:18:27that's a lot of stuff.
2:18:28Even money can't rival sex
2:18:32because people pay money for sex, they
2:18:33don't pay sex for money.
2:18:35>> They don't pay sex. How would you pay
2:18:37sex for money? I get that you're being
2:18:38clever, but still
2:18:40>> If somebody said, uh, if you if you
2:18:42promise never to have sex for the rest
2:18:44of your life, I'll give you a million
2:18:45dollars.
2:18:45>> Right.
2:18:46>> Would you take that? No, you wouldn't.
2:18:48>> But only because of inflation. If you
2:18:49said 10 million. [laughter]
2:18:53What's that joke? People say money can't
2:18:55buy happiness, but it can buy a jet ski,
2:18:58and I've never seen anybody sad on a jet
2:19:00ski.
2:19:00>> [laughter]
2:19:04>> Yeah.
2:19:06Have you given much thought to why
2:19:08sexual immorality and idolatry are often
2:19:11linked in scripture?
2:19:12>> Well, of course, everything's idolatry.
2:19:15Uh,
2:19:15Augustine makes that very clear. Every
2:19:17sin
2:19:18has a good in it that's twisted.
2:19:22Because evil doesn't have a substantial
2:19:24reality. Evil has a negative reality.
2:19:26Evil is the twist, not the thing.
2:19:29That was his great insight that got him
2:19:31out of Manichaeism.
2:19:33Matter's not evil. Body's not evil. Sex
2:19:36is not evil. Everything God makes is
2:19:37good.
2:19:39So, evil is the the twisting of that
2:19:41good.
2:19:43The deformation of that good.
2:19:46Uh, [sighs]
2:19:50and that is the answer to your original
2:19:51question, which was exactly what we
2:19:53heard.
2:19:54>> The the seeming link between sexual
2:19:57immorality and idolatry. Like think of
2:19:59the Israelites, they they [snorts] make
2:20:00the golden calf and then they rise up
2:20:02and play.
2:20:03>> In seeking an evil, you're what you're
2:20:05really seeking is the good in it, the
2:20:08God-created good in it.
2:20:10Not the twist in it.
2:20:13Uh and therefore, idolatry is the
2:20:14primary sin. Therefore, the first
2:20:16commandment is you shall you shall have
2:20:17no other gods before me.
2:20:20So, every sin is a form of idolatry.
2:20:22>> Mhm.
2:20:23>> Our hearts are made for God and for what
2:20:25God is. So, you can't be tempted by
2:20:27something that doesn't have any God
2:20:29stuff in it.
2:20:31It's twisted God stuff. It's blasphemous
2:20:33stuff, but it's God stuff.
2:20:34>> Mhm.
2:20:36>> Was it Chesterton who said the
2:20:39the John who enters the whorehouse is
2:20:41really looking for a cathedral?
2:20:45>> Mhm.
2:20:49Selfish question. This August, I uh
2:20:52I used to take the August off of the
2:20:54internet.
2:20:55I think I told you that.
2:20:57And I think I'm going to do it again
2:20:58this year.
2:21:00I even when I joined this group here,
2:21:02I told them I don't want to work in
2:21:04August and they went, "Okay."
2:21:06So, I'm working harder now to prepare
2:21:08August.
2:21:08>> Well, you don't have the ultimate reason
2:21:10for doing that. Oh, yes, you do. You
2:21:11live in Florida.
2:21:13You can surf.
2:21:14>> Uh-huh.
2:21:15>> You can't surf in Tennessee.
2:21:17>> Not well.
2:21:18The waves suck here.
2:21:20>> But the surfing is is
2:21:22when it exists in August, it's it's
2:21:25>> August. And I live in St. Augustine.
2:21:28It's uh brutal brutally hot.
2:21:30Is that all?
2:21:31>> St. Augustine is the most beautiful city
2:21:33in Florida.
2:21:34>> Why do you say that?
2:21:35>> I've been there.
2:21:37And the and the surf is good.
2:21:39>> Yeah.
2:21:42What did you like about it? Just the the
2:21:43downtown area, the
2:21:45>> Yeah.
2:21:46Uh
2:21:47>> [sighs]
2:21:49>> I agree. It's beautiful.
2:21:51>> It's old. It's different. It's It's got
2:21:53a lot of a lot of small shops.
2:21:55>> Probably. Yep.
2:21:56>> It's the opposite of Dallas. Now, in
2:21:57Dallas, everything is too big.
2:21:59>> Everything in Texas is too big. I
2:22:01remember when I moved to America being
2:22:02shocked at how big everything was,
2:22:05including the people.
2:22:06>> Well, Australia's pretty big, isn't it?
2:22:07>> Australia is big, but it's not
2:22:11We don't have big cars, big highways,
2:22:13big refrigerators, obese people, big
2:22:16portion sizes, big Everything's big,
2:22:18big, big. The apples seem genetically
2:22:20modified to be ginormous here.
2:22:22Everything's big in America, you
2:22:23>> Yeah.
2:22:24>> The fridges. I mean, I go back to
2:22:25Australia, and I'm shocked at how small
2:22:27people's fridges are, you know.
2:22:30>> Yeah, the the uh cereal boxes. This This
2:22:33is ridiculous.
2:22:35>> [laughter]
2:22:37>> Um All right, my question is what book
2:22:39should I read in August?
2:22:41>> Small is beautiful.
2:22:42>> What's that?
2:22:43>> By Schumacher.
2:22:45>> I haven't No idea about it.
2:22:46>> Oh,
2:22:47uh he became a Catholic because he
2:22:50um was the
2:22:52economics chief of some sort in Great
2:22:54Britain.
2:22:55>> All right.
2:22:55>> And he discovered that the papal
2:22:57encyclicals were the most practical way
2:23:00of restoring a country's economy.
2:23:02>> Okay.
2:23:03>> And he said, "Well, if the church is
2:23:04that smart about economics, it must be
2:23:06smarter about other stuff, too."
2:23:10>> Small is beautiful. Why did you say that
2:23:12so quickly?
2:23:14>> Schumacher also wrote, I think, a book
2:23:16on Thomas Aquinas or Thomistic
2:23:17philosophy.
2:23:21>> Hang on, this is So, is this the one
2:23:22Economics as if people matter? Why
2:23:24should I read that? Why would you say
2:23:26that? That's
2:23:27>> Because it's one of the few interesting
2:23:28books of economics that I've ever read.
2:23:30>> It's really bizarre that I asked you for
2:23:32a book for August, and you gave me a
2:23:33book on economics with no precursor.
2:23:36>> It was the Holy Spirit.
2:23:38>> Aw, man, don't say that. Now, I'm going
2:23:40to have to read it.
2:23:41>> [laughter]
2:23:42>> I really wanted I think I'm I'll
2:23:43probably I'll sure I'll give it a shot,
2:23:45all right? But I'll be honest. I'll I'll
2:23:46read it. but I I really just want to
2:23:48read The Brothers again.
2:23:50>> Yeah. This is like my fourth time. Well,
2:23:52then read my book on The Brothers, the
2:23:55two greatest novels ever written, The
2:23:56Lord of the Rings and The Brothers
2:23:57Karamazov.
2:23:58>> I agree with you. Those are the two
2:23:59greatest novels ever written. And I
2:24:01can't Depending on which one of them I'm
2:24:02reading depends on which one I think is
2:24:04the greatest.
2:24:05>> Right.
2:24:05>> If I'm reading
2:24:06>> Works that way, yep.
2:24:07>> What's your book called?
2:24:09>> Of the two greatest novels ever written.
2:24:11>> Oh, yes, novels.
2:24:13>> Word on Fire
2:24:15publishers
2:24:16>> Can we just do a shout-out to Word on
2:24:17Fire? Not that they need it. They're
2:24:18doing excellent work.
2:24:20>> They're doing excellent work. Bishop
2:24:21Barron is wonderful.
2:24:23My editor Brandon Vogt is wonderful.
2:24:25>> He's terrific.
2:24:26>> He's terrific.
2:24:27>> Yep.
2:24:28And I'm not just saying
2:24:29>> Interview him sometime.
2:24:29>> cuz I have a book coming out with them.
2:24:31>> He lives in Florida.
2:24:32>> Yeah, he does. And I would love to
2:24:33interview Brandon. He's a he's a friend
2:24:35and a good man, but um
2:24:38to his credit, I think he's quite happy
2:24:41to be a a husband and a father and to do
2:24:44good work behind the scenes.
2:24:46>> Yes.
2:24:46>> And
2:24:48I should probably take
2:24:49>> It's not for his sake, but for the
2:24:50world's sake that you should interview
2:24:52him.
2:24:53>> Yeah, I'll I'll tell him that. If I say
2:24:55Peter Kreeft says
2:24:57>> [laughter]
2:24:58>> Yeah, and so when he says I don't want
2:25:00to, I'll say, "What does that have to do
2:25:01with anything?"
2:25:02>> Good. Good. You are a wise man, Matt.
2:25:05>> [laughter]
2:25:05>> Do you have a Do you have a photos of
2:25:08your wife and you when you were young?
2:25:10>> Yes, you want me to send you some?
2:25:12>> I would love to. Do you have anybody who
2:25:14could scan them or
2:25:16>> Yes, in fact, my daughter's coming up
2:25:19and is going to scan a lot of pictures
2:25:22with her cell phone, which I can send.
2:25:23>> Could you please Could you send I mean,
2:25:25you can send them to me or send them to
2:25:26Melanie. If it would be okay with you,
2:25:28would it be okay while we were speaking
2:25:30about her, could we show the photo on
2:25:32public on the video? We don't have to if
2:25:33that's not
2:25:35>> We
2:25:36I would be flattered.
2:25:37>> Yeah, that'd be beautiful. Just as we
2:25:38spoke.
2:25:39>> I don't know how soon we could do this,
2:25:41but we could do it.
2:25:42>> Yeah.
2:25:44Give Give me a random memory that you
2:25:46have of your wife.
2:25:48>> Okay.
2:25:51Huh.
2:25:54>> [snorts]
2:25:59[sighs and gasps]
2:26:00>> I gave you one. We discovered Peter,
2:26:02Paul, and Mary.
2:26:03>> That was good. That was your best date,
2:26:04you said. What about your honeymoon?
2:26:06Where did you go on your honeymoon?
2:26:09>> We went to Canada.
2:26:10>> Oh.
2:26:10>> To Quebec.
2:26:12>> That's a joke. I'm sorry, Canadians.
2:26:14>> in that big, beautiful hotel. What's the
2:26:16name of it?
2:26:16>> Don't know. Where were you? Montreal or
2:26:19I don't know.
2:26:20>> Um
2:26:20>> Somewhere.
2:26:22>> And we went through Maine to
2:26:23>> City? You're in Quebec City, you mean?
2:26:25>> Quebec City, yes.
2:26:27Uh
2:26:28>> [sighs]
2:26:28>> Quebec's lovely, actually. That was one
2:26:30of the first That was I think that's the
2:26:32first place I ever went to
2:26:35in North America. Isn't that wild?
2:26:37Quebec.
2:26:38>> Hm.
2:26:39>> I'm pretty sure. Because I went there
2:26:40for World Youth Day in Toronto in 2002.
2:26:45And we either arrived in Montreal cuz we
2:26:47stayed in host homes. Anyway, I'm
2:26:49explaining too much, but I like Quebec.
2:26:53>> [sighs and gasps]
2:26:53>> Quebec went from
2:26:56the most Catholic part of Canada to the
2:26:59most
2:27:00>> Yeah.
2:27:00>> uncatholic, excatholic, and anti part of
2:27:02Canada
2:27:02>> Yeah, we have to We have to take it
2:27:04back.
2:27:06>> Yeah, my my friend would even say that
2:27:07they would use the French word for say
2:27:10the Blessed Sacrament or Tabernacle as
2:27:12curse words.
2:27:14That's demonic, yeah.
2:27:16>> Well, almost the same thing happened in
2:27:17Holland.
2:27:18>> Yeah.
2:27:21>> And it's happening now in Ireland.
2:27:23>> I think the good Irish people are going
2:27:25to take their country back, though.
2:27:26>> They've got to.
2:27:27>> They've got to.
2:27:27>> Got to.
2:27:28>> If for no other reason than the Catholic
2:27:29story is a much more beautiful and
2:27:31interesting story than the modern
2:27:35>> Yeah.
2:27:36>> They're not boring.
2:27:37>> No.
2:27:38No, the Irish are great.
2:27:40There's the seed of greatness there,
2:27:41even if they're not great now. I
2:27:43remember speaking to an old Irish fellow
2:27:45and he said, "Well, they used to be able
2:27:47to
2:27:48What did he say? Dance or play the
2:27:50fiddle, and if we couldn't do that, we
2:27:51could fight. And now they're just
2:27:53useless." That's what he said about the
2:27:55young Irish.
2:27:56>> famous rhyme about the Irish. When God
2:27:58wrote When God made the Irish, he must
2:28:01have been mad. All their wars are happy
2:28:03and all their songs are sad.
2:28:05>> Oh, that's good.
2:28:06No, but I think we're going to see a a
2:28:08revolution of young Irish men taking
2:28:10back the faith. There's a lot of
2:28:11goodness there.
2:28:12>> Well,
2:28:13God's Irish as is proved by the fact
2:28:15that whenever we call him whenever we
2:28:17address him personally, we use his Irish
2:28:19name, O God.
2:28:21>> [laughter]
2:28:22>> Do you remember This is usually what
2:28:23happens when you and I get together. It
2:28:24usually devolves into terrible terrible
2:28:27jokes.
2:28:29>> Yeah.
2:28:30Yeah, I won't I won't say that joke
2:28:33>> I think comedian is a very high and holy
2:28:35calling.
2:28:37I wrote a book about that once, a
2:28:38Christian philosophy of humor.
2:28:40>> Did you?
2:28:40>> The title is simply Ha.
2:28:43>> Uh who What What publisher in their
2:28:45right mind would allow you to name a
2:28:47book Ha?
2:28:48>> Saint Augustine's Press.
2:28:49>> [laughter]
2:28:50>> They are no longer in business.
2:28:51>> Well, they're sort of going out of
2:28:53business.
2:28:54>> Okay.
2:28:54>> [laughter]
2:28:56>> What makes something funny?
2:29:00>> [sighs]
2:29:02>> Unexpected incongruity.
2:29:04>> Okay.
2:29:05So, the bride slipping on the banana
2:29:07peel.
2:29:07>> Exactly.
2:29:09Or the millionaire slipping on the
2:29:10banana peel.
2:29:11>> Yes.
2:29:16What's Do you remember I I want
2:29:18>> You know what the funniest thing that
2:29:19ever happened?
2:29:20>> Uh no.
2:29:21>> The crucifixion.
2:29:23>> Oh.
2:29:23>> God's joke on the devil.
2:29:25>> Okay.
2:29:26Sure.
2:29:27>> Supreme triumph. Ah, I've I've killed
2:29:29God. Yes, you've opened hell.
2:29:32>> Do you know that Mel Gibson is coming
2:29:33out with his Resurrection movie?
2:29:35>> So I hear. So I hear.
2:29:40>> [sighs]
2:29:40>> Wasn't that a beautiful work of art? The
2:29:42resurrect The Passion.
2:29:44>> That That was a miracle. That was
2:29:45astonishing.
2:29:46>> It
2:29:47>> Absolutely astonishing.
2:29:48>> it last year. I mean, this year for
2:29:50whole for Lent.
2:29:51I was shocked at how beautiful it was.
2:29:53>> It was It was It was more than a movie.
2:29:55It was It was more like a liturgy.
2:29:57>> I remember going into the theater to
2:29:59watch it. And uh
2:30:01people were there with their sodas and
2:30:02popcorns and they left without touching
2:30:04them.
2:30:04>> Exactly. Exactly.
2:30:07And afterwards, there was silence. You
2:30:09didn't hear people talking about it.
2:30:11>> Yeah, what a gift Mel Gibson has given
2:30:14to the world with that.
2:30:15>> Yeah.
2:30:16Well, creative geniuses
2:30:18usually have a a dark side, a a
2:30:21problematic side.
2:30:23They're They're all a little
2:30:25little nuts.
2:30:26>> [sighs]
2:30:27>> My dad wants me to interview Mel Gibson
2:30:30because my dad went to high school with
2:30:32his first wife. That's why he wants me.
2:30:35He's like, "Yeah, make sure you bloody
2:30:36ask him, you know?
2:30:38I went to school." All right, I'll I'll
2:30:40I'll That'll be the first thing I say if
2:30:42I ever get to interview Mel Gibson.
2:30:45>> How old is Mel now?
2:30:48>> I don't know.
2:30:50If I had to Let's guess. I'll look it
2:30:52up. Mel Gibson
2:30:54I would guess that Mel Gibson
2:30:56>> I would guess 75.
2:30:57>> Oh, wow. I was going to say 65.
2:30:59But I think you're probably right.
2:31:02Mel Gibson age
2:31:0570.
2:31:06Hey.
2:31:06>> All right, we're at exactly halfway
2:31:08right.
2:31:08>> What a good-looking man.
2:31:09>> Oh, yeah.
2:31:10>> Did you ever watch the You've watched
2:31:11The Patriot?
2:31:12>> Yeah.
2:31:13>> There has never been a better-looking
2:31:14man
2:31:15than Mel Gibson in The Patriot.
2:31:18>> No, [groaning]
2:31:19I think Robert Redford might
2:31:22qualify there.
2:31:25>> Yeah, it's a bit too Not smarmy, that's
2:31:27the wrong word, but he's a bit too uh a
2:31:29bit too classy. There was a ruggedness
2:31:31and a
2:31:32Oh, gosh.
2:31:36Good-looking bloke.
2:31:37>> Until The Passion of the Christ came
2:31:39out, I thought The Man
2:31:41A Man for All Seasons was the greatest
2:31:42movie ever made.
2:31:43>> Yeah.
2:31:44>> But uh
2:31:46The Passion is amazing.
2:31:47>> it's not one you can watch frequently.
2:31:50>> Mhm, right.
2:31:50>> barely watch it every year. It's too
2:31:52much almost twice.
2:31:53>> Right. Right.
2:31:54>> Every second year.
2:31:55>> And you don't have to because it burns
2:31:56itself into your memory. You you you
2:31:59remember remember the scenes.
2:32:01>> You told me of a good movie when my wife
2:32:03and I were driving you back to the
2:32:05airport. I said I like movies with lots
2:32:06of dialogue.
2:32:08Oh, I just thought of a show you would
2:32:09love.
2:32:11You don't have access to Netflix, do
2:32:12you?
2:32:14>> Yeah.
2:32:14>> Okay.
2:32:16Please watch this. It's a four-part
2:32:19British psychological drama called
2:32:21Adolescence.
2:32:23Please watch it.
2:32:24>> All right.
2:32:25>> It's the best thing I have seen in a
2:32:27long time.
2:32:29>> Mhm.
2:32:29>> And I hate almost everything I watch.
2:32:32>> Mhm.
2:32:32>> I promise you'll love this. Every
2:32:34episode is filmed with one continuous
2:32:37take, no cuts at all.
2:32:39It's not like Alfred Hitchcock's Rope.
2:32:42Remember that?
2:32:44>> No.
2:32:44>> Well, that was shot in one continuous
2:32:46take, but there were a couple of cuts.
2:32:47There's zero cuts. It's phenomenal.
2:32:50Okay, that one. And then I just watched
2:32:52a movie on the plane the other day.
2:32:53>> One of the best movies I've ever seen
2:32:55and one of the worst movies I've ever
2:32:57ever seen are the only two movies that
2:32:59were simply dialogues.
2:33:02Simply words between two people.
2:33:03>> All right.
2:33:04>> The critics loved My Dinner with Andre.
2:33:07I hated it. I thought the philosophy was
2:33:09really stupid.
2:33:10>> Uh
2:33:11>> I know which one you're going to say.
2:33:12>> Cormac McCarthy?
2:33:13>> Oh. No, I didn't.
2:33:15>> The Sunset Limited.
2:33:16>> Yes. You told me that's the one you told
2:33:19me to watch. It's excellent.
2:33:20>> Isn't it?
2:33:21>> Cormac McCarthy, what a writer.
2:33:24>> Yeah.
2:33:24>> Don't you think?
2:33:25>> Yeah.
2:33:26>> His uh
2:33:28What was his uh
2:33:29>> Reminds me of Mel Gibson.
2:33:30>> Got a dark The Road. That's I wept after
2:33:33reading that.
2:33:35>> What books have you read? I don't know
2:33:37if this is just a weird thing of mine. I
2:33:39I cry not infrequently when I finish a
2:33:42book.
2:33:43The Road, I was in a hotel room. It was
2:33:46the kind of embarrassing cry that you
2:33:49pray no one will see. You know that kind
2:33:50of cry?
2:33:51>> Mhm.
2:33:51>> That's what I
2:33:52That one.
2:33:54Dostoyevsky's short story
2:33:57A Gentle Creature broke my heart.
2:34:00>> to say the uh
2:34:01the vision of an the impossible man.
2:34:04What's that one?
2:34:04>> Invisible man?
2:34:05>> No, not impossible.
2:34:06>> Impossible? I don't know what this is.
2:34:08What is it?
2:34:08>> The something of an impossible man.
2:34:10>> Impossible man?
2:34:16The Dream of a Ridiculous Man?
2:34:17>> Yeah, a ridiculous man. I started I
2:34:19started Dream of a ridiculous man, yeah.
2:34:21>> This isn't the one about the No, that's
2:34:22The Double, The Double Ganger. That was
2:34:24all right. I'll have to read that.
2:34:27>> I love Michael O'Brien. I love all his
2:34:29novels. One of them made me weep, and he
2:34:32confessed that it was his favorite, too.
2:34:34>> All right.
2:34:34>> Strangers and Sojourners.
2:34:35>> Yeah, he's beautiful. He's a beautiful
2:34:37writer.
2:34:37>> Yes, he is.
2:34:38>> But I'll be honest when I read him, and
2:34:40I don't mean any disrespect to him,
2:34:42who's clearly a genius and brilliant.
2:34:44Everyone should read his books. But I do
2:34:46often feel that I'm being preached at a
2:34:47little bit.
2:34:49>> His later books, maybe, yeah.
2:34:52>> Like I wish there there was more kind of
2:34:54range and diversity, even into the
2:34:56sinfulness of the circumstances and the
2:34:59character. So it's like people actually
2:35:01grappling with the broad spectrum of
2:35:03reality. But sometimes I feel like it's
2:35:05a bit too religious.
2:35:08>> The earlier
2:35:09>> That's probably I'm going to blame
2:35:10myself for that interpretation, not him.
2:35:12>> I think the earlier ones are probably
2:35:14the best ones.
2:35:15>> Like what?
2:35:16>> Father Elijah.
2:35:17>> Yeah.
2:35:17>> That's his first one. Hollywood came to
2:35:19him and offered him big bucks.
2:35:21>> No.
2:35:22>> Big bucks. I mean, he's got like nine
2:35:24kids and not that big an income.
2:35:27>> Yeah.
2:35:27>> I mean, he paints icons
2:35:30uh and uh he said, "Well, okay, but give
2:35:33me give me the right of refusal because
2:35:35if this I realize you've got to
2:35:37Hollywoodize it a bit and and
2:35:40>> Yeah.
2:35:41>> But, if it's if it's totally
2:35:44unacceptable then I'd be embarrassed. I
2:35:46I've got to say no.
2:35:48The screenplay, he said, was was totally
2:35:50wrong.
2:35:51>> They did that.
2:35:51>> They got everything wrong. It was It was
2:35:53almost as bad as could be. So, he said,
2:35:55"Forget it. Forget your quarter of a
2:35:56million dollars."
2:35:57>> bless him.
2:35:58>> And they said, "Well, we like this so
2:35:59much that we're going to fire all those
2:36:01writers and we're going to get a whole
2:36:02new team of writers."
2:36:03>> Whoa.
2:36:04>> And we're going to write another
2:36:05screenplay. And they did. And it came
2:36:07back to Michael. And it was worse than
2:36:09the first one.
2:36:11So, he said no. So, they never did it.
2:36:14>> But, Strangers and Sojourners, you said,
2:36:16made you weep.
2:36:17>> Yeah.
2:36:18>> Yeah.
2:36:21Yeah.
2:36:23>> That's the best criterion of greatness
2:36:26in a work of art. Does it make you weep?
2:36:28Does it break your heart?
2:36:32A masterpiece has to break your heart.
2:36:35>> Yeah, why is that?
2:36:36>> Something Something of supreme sorrow
2:36:38and supreme joy both break your heart.
2:36:43And that's why The Lord of the Rings and
2:36:45The Brothers Karamazov were so great.
2:36:46They break your heart in two different
2:36:47directions.
2:36:49>> I'm tempted to read something that will
2:36:51break your heart and my heart, but I
2:36:53think it might be inappropriate.
2:36:56Richard Feynman's love letter to his
2:36:58dead wife.
2:37:00Have you heard of that?
2:37:00>> No.
2:37:01>> Do you want me to send it to you or do
2:37:02you want me to read it to you?
2:37:03>> send it to me. Who's Richard Feynman?
2:37:05>> He was [snorts]
2:37:09I think he was a physicist.
2:37:13Yeah, you need to read this alone cuz I
2:37:15If I read this, I I won't be able to do
2:37:17it. It would be inappropriate, so I'll
2:37:19send it to you.
2:37:20Oh, but I beg
2:37:21>> Since Since you recommended a four-part
2:37:23British series to me, I'll recommend one
2:37:26to you. This is
2:37:27>> Uh
2:37:28>> [sighs]
2:37:28>> Oh, I think there are about 70 uh
2:37:31episodes.
2:37:33Uh it's not a masterpiece, but it's
2:37:35utterly delightful.
2:37:36>> All right.
2:37:37>> Doc Martin.
2:37:38>> Doc Martin? Is that a detective thing or
2:37:41what is it?
2:37:42>> It's It's a gentle British comedy about
2:37:45uh
2:37:46uh
2:37:46a typically weird Cornwall village and
2:37:50the people in it.
2:37:51>> yeah.
2:37:51>> And uh
2:37:53uh
2:37:53>> Doc Mar- Yeah.
2:37:54I You Can I be honest? I think I started
2:37:56watching that cuz you told me and there
2:37:58was a sex scene within the first 5
2:38:00minutes and I went, "Nah."
2:38:01>> There's only one sex scene in the whole
2:38:03of it.
2:38:04>> Okay, well, good.
2:38:05Then maybe I'll watch it again.
2:38:07>> And Martin Clunes, who plays Doc Martin,
2:38:09uh says that most of the stuff on TV is
2:38:12trash because it's all sex and violence.
2:38:14>> I'm I might be wrong.
2:38:16Okay, thank you for telling me about
2:38:17this.
2:38:19Yeah, we we uh we just finished um
2:38:22uh our family We we have fried family
2:38:25movie night, we call it, on Fridays.
2:38:27And uh we just watched that old series
2:38:30Monk
2:38:31about the neurotic detective who's a
2:38:33neat freak and
2:38:34>> Never heard of it.
2:38:35>> Yeah. It's It's quite good. I I wouldn't
2:38:37recommend it cuz it I think it's more
2:38:39for
2:38:40>> Another great BBC series is uh A Tale of
2:38:43Two Cities.
2:38:44>> Really?
2:38:44>> The TV version.
2:38:45>> I'm so glad you told me about this cuz I
2:38:48have felt for a couple of years now that
2:38:50our Lord has asked me to read that book
2:38:52and I keep saying no.
2:38:54God have mercy on me, a sinner. I think
2:38:56it's cuz I'm not convinced he's asking
2:38:57me to read it.
2:38:59>> Well, that's
2:39:00>> But that'll that'll be the
2:39:01>> That's That also can break your heart.
2:39:04>> The book?
2:39:04>> Yeah.
2:39:05>> I should I'm going to watch the series.
2:39:06>> Yeah.
2:39:07>> A Tale of Two Cities is a Is there a
2:39:09couple of them or is that the one?
2:39:10>> No, well, it's an old one. It goes back
2:39:12to the
2:39:1320th century.
2:39:15>> BBC
2:39:22All right.
2:39:24Is it Is it Is it
2:39:27that one?
2:39:28Or is that something different?
2:39:29>> Let me see. I think that's different.
2:39:30That doesn't look familiar.
2:39:32No. No, that is not that is not the one.
2:39:35Nope.
2:39:35>> All right. Well, I'll find it again.
2:39:38If you could do one and you know, bucket
2:39:40lists are silly. I understand that
2:39:42because
2:39:43the answer is I'll do what the good Lord
2:39:45has in mind for me and that's what's
2:39:47best.
2:39:47>> If I could make a movie of any book in
2:39:49the world, what would I want to
2:39:50>> That wasn't going to be my question, but
2:39:51that's a good one. So, you It's better
2:39:52than the question I had. So, what would
2:39:54you?
2:39:54>> The Great Divorce.
2:39:56>> Yeah.
2:39:57>> Mel Gibson's producer, what's his name?
2:39:59And Power Films
2:40:01>> No idea.
2:40:02>> uh sent me two versions of a screenplay
2:40:05for The Great Divorce that he wants to
2:40:07do and they're both bad.
2:40:09>> Oh, really?
2:40:10Why are they bad?
2:40:11>> They're all bells and whistles.
2:40:13They don't They don't get Lewis's point.
2:40:16I have seen The Great Divorce on stage
2:40:18four times in my life in four different
2:40:20cities by four different
2:40:22acting groups. Some of them using no
2:40:25props at all, some of them having
2:40:26elaborate props. Some of them the
2:40:28audiences were Catholic, some of them
2:40:30were Protestant, some of them were
2:40:32uh
2:40:33varied. Every single time I have seen
2:40:36that put on in stage, I have seen the
2:40:39stop-your-breath effect. I'm I'm very
2:40:41sensitive to how interested people are
2:40:43because my my students get bored very
2:40:45easily.
2:40:46And when when they stop shuffling, I
2:40:49know I'm making a point. And when they
2:40:50stop breathing, I can hear that. That
2:40:52happens maybe once every 5 years.
2:40:55uh
2:40:56Everybody stopped breathing at a number
2:40:58of points in The Great Divorce when they
2:41:00put it on as a as a simple stage play.
2:41:02Because each time they didn't change it,
2:41:05they did word for word the whole
2:41:07version.
2:41:07>> Mhm.
2:41:09>> Actually, one of them was an abbreviated
2:41:10version, but they didn't add stuff to
2:41:12it.
2:41:13>> And that's magnificently [clears throat]
2:41:15dramatic. That's got to be a good
2:41:17>> Whereas this one that was sent to you
2:41:19that was just they changed it a lot.
2:41:20>> Yeah.
2:41:21>> There's no need. It's C.S. Lewis.
2:41:24>> [sighs and gasps]
2:41:24>> Yeah.
2:41:25>> I think movie producers are are
2:41:27egotists. However,
2:41:29uh Martin Scorsese, who's a great movie
2:41:31maker,
2:41:32uh made a totally faithful version of um
2:41:36the one about the um Jesuit martyrs in
2:41:38Japan.
2:41:39>> Oh, yeah.
2:41:39>> Silence.
2:41:40>> What did you think of that?
2:41:41>> Wonderful. Movie was totally faithful to
2:41:43the book.
2:41:45>> What Okay, so I have to ask you then uh
2:41:48and just for those at home, maybe sum up
2:41:50the predicament the priests were in,
2:41:52what decision they made, and whether you
2:41:53thought it was right or not.
2:41:55>> The good priest had to decide whether
2:41:58or not to publicly repudiate faith by
2:42:01stomping on the crucifix.
2:42:03And if they did that if he did that,
2:42:07then dozens of Christians who were being
2:42:09imprisoned and tortured would be
2:42:11released. And if not, they would be
2:42:12continued to be tortured until they
2:42:14died.
2:42:16And he did it to save them.
2:42:19And it's it's
2:42:21to the end ambiguous as to whether this
2:42:23was simply a bad act or simply a good
2:42:25act.
2:42:27He leaves you to decide.
2:42:29>> And what's your decision?
2:42:31>> You cannot apostatize. That's an
2:42:33absolute.
2:42:34>> Yeah.
2:42:38Yeah.
2:42:38>> And yet they uh
2:42:40the temptation to is almost
2:42:42unovercomable when you see these
2:42:44tortures.
2:42:45>> Yeah.
2:42:46Yeah.
2:42:47Uh Aquinas in the Summa talks about
2:42:49coerced acts, right? He talks about
2:42:51human acts and how if you sort of
2:42:54scratch on instinct, it's not a human
2:42:56act. It has to be a deliberate act. And
2:42:58then he talks about coerced acts.
2:43:01So, I suppose he would clearly take your
2:43:04deci- your your your uh
2:43:06>> Coerced Coerced acts still have moral
2:43:08responsibility in them, but their moral
2:43:10responsibility is
2:43:12dramatically lessened by the fact that
2:43:14they're coerced. They're not totally
2:43:16coerced.
2:43:16>> Mhm.
2:43:18>> I think Aquinas gives the example of
2:43:19throwing a fortune overboard when you
2:43:21have to deliver it uh in order to save
2:43:23the lives of the sailors.
2:43:27Even in a society that has slavery and
2:43:29has put a price on every human head, if
2:43:31the 40 sailors would have given them
2:43:33only 40 million and he was carrying uh
2:43:35300 million, should he throw the 300
2:43:37million overboard?
2:43:39>> Yeah.
2:43:40>> Yes, because human life is more
2:43:42important than money.
2:43:43>> I think I've asked you this question and
2:43:44I think I don't like your answer, but
2:43:47you'd be in agreement with Janet Smith.
2:43:49But not other Thomists, namely the Nazis
2:43:53at the door. Do you lie or not?
2:43:55>> you do.
2:43:56>> Yeah.
2:43:57>> Of course you do. How How could you
2:43:58possibly say Yes. Yes. My Nazis, here
2:44:01are the Jews. Go ahead and kill them.
2:44:03>> Here's how you'd do it.
2:44:04>> How How you justify it is questionable.
2:44:06>> Well, you could say this.
2:44:07>> Is that really a lie?
2:44:08>> You could say the same thing about the
2:44:09man who maybe he refuses to stomp on the
2:44:11crucifix.
2:44:13>> [sighs]
2:44:13>> How could you justify it?
2:44:15>> That's not a lie. That's a public
2:44:17apostasy.
2:44:17>> I understand it's a different action,
2:44:19but the weight of what is going to
2:44:21result because of your choice is no less
2:44:24intense.
2:44:24>> Can you kill a man in war? Yes. Why?
2:44:27Because the aggressor does not have the
2:44:28right to life.
2:44:30Can you defend yourself by self-defense,
2:44:32by lethal force if necessary? Yes,
2:44:34because he has given up the right to
2:44:35life by threatening yours or your
2:44:37children's.
2:44:39Which is the argument against pacifism.
2:44:42>> Yeah, I I You know way more than me,
2:44:44clearly, but I guess I would say I'm not
2:44:45sure if he's given up the right to life.
2:44:48It's just that you have a right to
2:44:50defend yourself.
2:44:52>> In the same way the Nazis have given up
2:44:54their right to truth when they're going
2:44:56to use the truth to execute the Jews.
2:44:59>> I don't
2:45:00know.
2:45:01>> No, you can you can be a good
2:45:03philosopher and say lying is always
2:45:04wrong and this is not a lie.
2:45:06Just as defensive warfare is not murder.
2:45:09>> Sure, sure, sure. But your point is
2:45:11semantics.
2:45:11>> doesn't say thou shalt not kill.
2:45:14>> Right.
2:45:14>> himself commands a lot of killing.
2:45:16>> Murder.
2:45:16>> Thou shalt not murder.
2:45:17>> Okay, well then he doesn't that make
2:45:18your case weaker?
2:45:19>> say thou shalt not lie. He says thou
2:45:21shalt not bear false witness against thy
2:45:23neighbor.
2:45:24>> Well, that's yeah, that's fair. But I
2:45:26mean I think Aquinas would disagree with
2:45:27you, don't you think?
2:45:28>> I think Aquinas is wrong there.
2:45:30>> Yeah.
2:45:31I thought Aquinas was infallible. No,
2:45:33that's a joke.
2:45:34>> No, he he was wrong in at least three
2:45:36things. He misunderstood the Immaculate
2:45:38Conception.
2:45:39>> [snorts]
2:45:39>> Uh and he said lying is always wrong.
2:45:41I'm not sure what he meant by lying.
2:45:43Maybe maybe he's he's right there. And
2:45:45he thought there were no animals in
2:45:47heaven cuz there was no need for them.
2:45:48>> Yeah.
2:45:50>> He never had a pet, I guess.
2:45:52>> Yeah, his view of heaven
2:45:55there's no plant life in heaven
2:45:57or animals, I think.
2:46:00>> I don't think he says anything about
2:46:01plants.
2:46:02>> Huh.
2:46:03>> But almost every vision of heaven that
2:46:04we know of from various sources have
2:46:07plants. It's not like the moon.
2:46:09>> It'd be weird, wouldn't it?
2:46:11>> A resurrected body without without life?
2:46:13>> And without hunting?
2:46:16>> Or without pets?
2:46:18>> Do you still have a dog?
2:46:20>> No, a cat. It's easier to take care of.
2:46:22>> Yeah.
2:46:23>> Love them both.
2:46:26>> What do you think?
2:46:27>> are there are there cats in heaven? Of
2:46:28course, why not?
2:46:30>> Okay, but here's the real question.
2:46:31Should it be illegal for a single woman
2:46:34to own a cat?
2:46:37>> That's a strange question. Who would who
2:46:39would answer that question yes?
2:46:41>> [laughter]
2:46:42[gasps]
2:46:42>> I just think
2:46:43>> just think there's a lot of strange
2:46:46young single women
2:46:48that their life would be better with
2:46:50>> There's a lot of strange single men who
2:46:52have dogs for different reasons.
2:46:56>> All right. So, maybe we apply it
2:46:57equally.
2:46:58I would like to live in a society that's
2:47:00a little bit more like God in Exodus,
2:47:02you know? Like, all right, if your
2:47:04freaking ox impales this fellow, you're
2:47:08dead. If you you know.
2:47:10So, let's come up with
2:47:11>> You you'd rather live in Exodus than in
2:47:13the Gospels?
2:47:15>> Well, that's unfair. God himself
2:47:17>> God [laughter]
2:47:17himself believes in progressive
2:47:19revelation.
2:47:20>> All right. Okay, let's just We don't
2:47:22have long together before you have to
2:47:23go. So, I want to know what are some pet
2:47:25peeves
2:47:26that you would like the state to execute
2:47:28people for, and I'm being facetious.
2:47:35>> For Bill Gates for inventing Microsoft
2:47:37Word, which is a chamber of horrors.
2:47:39>> All right. He should be executed. What
2:47:40about if somebody choose ice in front of
2:47:42you?
2:47:43>> I chew ice myself.
2:47:45>> Yeah.
2:47:45>> I love to chew ice.
2:47:46>> I'm so sorry. You You You get one
2:47:47chance, then execution.
2:47:49>> [laughter]
2:47:49>> I think if your phone goes off in church
2:47:51more than once, we have we unfortunately
2:47:53we have to stone you.
2:47:55What else? I'm a much more angrier man
2:47:58than you are, apparently.
2:47:59I've got a ton of these.
2:48:01If a man wears short shorts on an
2:48:03airplane, execute.
2:48:05>> women in a row give you a finger after
2:48:07cutting you off in traffic.
2:48:08>> Three women in a row? What does that
2:48:10mean? Oh, I see. You what
2:48:11>> Men Men you can take that from.
2:48:13>> Okay, but if three women gets executed,
2:48:15the three women or you?
2:48:16>> The three women.
2:48:18The third one, maybe.
2:48:18>> Okay, I was going to say. Just the Okay.
2:48:20>> Women shouldn't give anybody the finger.
2:48:22>> No. Should men?
2:48:23>> Yes, occasionally.
2:48:24>> or not, but apparently a woman went to
2:48:26confess to Padre Pio about smoking
2:48:29and smoking too
2:48:30and smoking too much, perhaps. And I
2:48:31think he said women who smoke are
2:48:33disgusting.
2:48:35Well, of course they're
2:48:36Of course they're
2:48:37>> I think they I agree with him. They are
2:48:39disgusting, but it's It's a sin.
2:48:41>> Okay, so I disagree. I think women who
2:48:42smoke cigars are really cool.
2:48:46>> Well, Dorothy Sayers smoked cigars.
2:48:50>> Okay.
2:48:51So, did that Sheila who debated C.S.
2:48:53Lewis and won?
2:48:55What's her name?
2:48:56>> Oh, yeah.
2:48:57Um
2:48:58>> Oh, goodness.
2:49:00Oh, I hate that I've forgotten it.
2:49:02>> Uh Peter Geach's wife.
2:49:04>> Yeah.
2:49:04>> Anscombe Elizabeth Anscombe.
2:49:06>> Anscombe told God uh made a deal with
2:49:09him that she would give up smoking if X,
2:49:10Y, and Z happened and it did, so she
2:49:12took up cigars.
2:49:14>> [laughter]
2:49:15>> You know the the true story about her
2:49:17daughter, aren't you?
2:49:18>> Uh no.
2:49:19>> When she was something like 14 or 15,
2:49:23she was hauled into court for protesting
2:49:25at an abortion clinic
2:49:27uh by
2:49:28walking on an illegal sidewalk or
2:49:30something
2:49:31and the judge lectured her, "You were
2:49:33You were a Catholic, are you not? Yes.
2:49:35And you believe everything that
2:49:37Jesus says, right? Yes. Uh well, then,
2:49:41uh
2:49:41this is a civil matter that you're on
2:49:44trial for and not a religious matter and
2:49:47uh your supreme authority told you
2:49:50uh give unto Caesar what belongs unto
2:49:52Caesar and give unto God what belongs
2:49:53unto God."
2:49:55And uh little Miss Anscombe said, "The
2:49:57bodies of our children do not belong to
2:49:59Caesar."
2:50:00>> Very good.
2:50:02So, Anscombe told her well.
2:50:04>> Yes, indeed.
2:50:05>> Yeah.
2:50:06Thank you very much for getting on a
2:50:09bloody airplane and flying [snorts] all
2:50:11the way here to sit with me. What a pain
2:50:13in the ass that was.
2:50:14>> If I had to ride on the back of a
2:50:16donkey, it would be more of a pain in
2:50:17the ass. The seats in the airplane are
2:50:19quite comfortable and this was quite
2:50:21delightful. Thank you, Matt, for having
2:50:23me.
2:50:23>> God bless you. Thank you.
2:50:27>> [music]
2:50:34>> So, if you've made it this far, I'm
2:50:35willing to bet that you don't hate what
2:50:38you're watching.
2:50:39So, you should, you know, maybe consider
2:50:41liking and subscribing.
2:50:43Go on. Consider it.
2:50:45Consider it.

About this transcript

This page contains the full transcript of Love, Loss and the Meaning of Suffering (Dr. Peter Kreeft) | Ep. 587 by Matt Fradd, generated from the public captions YouTube serves with the video. The transcript has 29,954 words across 5,449 segments, with the original timestamps preserved so you can click any line to jump to that moment in the embedded player.

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