Louise Thompson quizzes UK health secretary on England maternity report | BBC News — Transcript

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1. 0:00And I speak on behalf of the 160,000
2. 0:02affected women who have signed the
3. 0:03petition that Theo and I created at the
4. 0:05beginning of this year. We would feel a
5. 0:07lot more confident if there was a date
6. 0:09that we knew that the government were
7. 0:11working towards.
8. 0:12>> Can you give us a date, Mr. Murray?
9. 0:14>> Uh, look, I'm I'm not going to say a
10. 0:16date right now because I don't want to
11. 0:18uh come up with a date that I can't keep
12. 0:21as a promise. A national inquiry has
13. 0:22strongly criticized the NHS maternity
14. 0:25system in England, saying it is not set
15. 0:27up to deliver consistently safe,
16. 0:30highquality, and compassionate care.
17. 0:32>> We've just been hearing from Baroness
18. 0:34Amos, who chaired that government
19. 0:36commission review, which also found
20. 0:38unacceptable racism and discrimination
21. 0:41embedded within the maternity system.
22. 0:43The government has accepted the report's
23. 0:45main recommendations, which is to
24. 0:47appoint a national maternity
25. 0:49commissioner. We're joined now by the
26. 0:51health secretary, James Murray. Good
27. 0:53morning, Mr. Murray.
28. 0:55>> Morning.
29. 0:55>> As health secretary, to see those words
30. 0:58in black and white that the maternity
31. 1:00and neonatal system in England is no
32. 1:02longer fit to deliver highquality
33. 1:05compassionate care. What did you think
34. 1:08when you read that?
35. 1:10I think it's shocking, but it's actually
36. 1:13not surprising because we've had so many
37. 1:16reports in recent years showing the the
38. 1:20pain, the trauma, uh the devastation
39. 1:24that failings in NHS maternity and
40. 1:26neonatal services have caused to women
41. 1:29uh to babies and their families um over
42. 1:31many years. You know, I think what
43. 1:33Baronos Amos' report is sets out um
44. 1:36something I think we all thought was
45. 1:38likely, something we all uh knew,
46. 1:41something we all know from conversations
47. 1:43uh with our friends and family uh which
48. 1:45is that NHS maternity services um are
49. 1:49just not fit. Uh they are failing uh too
50. 1:52many women and babies and their families
51. 1:54across the country and things need to
52. 1:56change.
53. 1:58>> So what do we do? How do we change them?
54. 2:01Uh, one of the suggestions is the
55. 2:02creation of a maternity and neonatal
56. 2:05commissioner. But, but for women
57. 2:08watching this this morning who are
58. 2:09pregnant and due to give birth, how much
59. 2:12difference is a commissioner going to
60. 2:14make? Is that really going to make them
61. 2:16feel any safer?
62. 2:18>> Well, the commissioner uh the decision
63. 2:20to establish that role um is an
64. 2:22important role in driving accountability
65. 2:25and making sure that women's voices um
66. 2:27are heard at the heart of heart of
67. 2:29government. when the commissioner is in
68. 2:31place, they'll be able to hold the
69. 2:34system to account and to make sure um
70. 2:36that women's voices are being heard
71. 2:38because one of the things that I've
72. 2:40heard so many times when I've been
73. 2:42speaking uh to women who have been
74. 2:44affected by failings in maternity
75. 2:46services is the sense that they're just
76. 2:48not listened to. Uh that they are
77. 2:50ignored, that their concerns are
78. 2:52disregarded, that maternity services do
79. 2:54not respond to what they're saying. And
80. 2:56that needs to change. We need to make
81. 2:58sure maternity services are held to
82. 3:00account that we that we change the
83. 3:03culture in maternity services. Um and I
84. 3:05think the first step for that um is to
85. 3:08appoint this new maternity and neonatal
86. 3:11commissioner who will be able to hold
87. 3:13the system to account and help us as a
88. 3:14government drive that change.
89. 3:17>> Mr. Mari, we have the maternity safety
90. 3:19campaigner Luis Thompson here in the
91. 3:21studio with us this morning and I am
92. 3:23going to ask her to ask you the next
93. 3:25question.
94. 3:27Hi, Mr. Mari. I would really like to
95. 3:29know when you plan on appointing this
96. 3:31new role.
97. 3:33>> Great. Uh, thanks for the question,
98. 3:35Louise. Um, so what's going to happen uh
99. 3:38in the next two weeks? Um, I'm going to
100. 3:40meet with the national task force um
101. 3:43which I chair which will be developing
102. 3:46the action plan for how we're going to
103. 3:48change maternity services. when I meet
104. 3:50them in the next two weeks, we'll set
105. 3:52out uh the scope um and the details
106. 3:54about the maternity um commissioner
107. 3:56role. Uh we then need to get it into
108. 3:58legislation as quickly as possible uh so
109. 4:01that we can appoint a person uh to that
110. 4:03role. So we'll move as quickly as we can
111. 4:05in the first two next two weeks getting
112. 4:08the the details of the role pinned down
113. 4:10by working with the task force that I
114. 4:12chair and then getting it into
115. 4:13legislation as quickly as possible
116. 4:15because it's going to be a statutory
117. 4:16role. Uh so it would be a role that we
118. 4:18can point to and say this has real
119. 4:20weight. This is real standing within the
120. 4:22system and we can really uh make sure
121. 4:25the person who is in this role has the
122. 4:27authority to drive change.
123. 4:29>> Louise, what what do you think of that
124. 4:31response that uh basically a job
125. 4:33description has to be drawn up then it
126. 4:35has to go through parliament. It doesn't
127. 4:36sound to me like it's happening anytime
128. 4:38soon.
129. 4:39>> Yes. I think the thing, you know, when I
130. 4:40speak on behalf of the 160,000 effective
131. 4:42women who have signed the petition that
132. 4:44Theo and I created at the beginning of
133. 4:45this year, we would feel a lot more
134. 4:48confident if there was a date that we
135. 4:49knew that the government were working
136. 4:51towards.
137. 4:52>> Can you give us a date, Mr. Murray?
138. 4:54>> Uh, look, I'm not going to say a date
139. 4:56right now because I don't want to uh
140. 4:59come up with a date that I can't keep as
141. 5:01a promise. What I can promise though is
142. 5:03that we'll have that meeting in the next
143. 5:05two weeks to pin down the scope and the
144. 5:07and the details of the role and we'll
145. 5:09then get that into legislation as
146. 5:11quickly as possible because I think one
147. 5:12of the important things is to make sure
148. 5:15this role has real weight and real
149. 5:17standing in the system and so getting it
150. 5:19right. Um getting the details of the
151. 5:21role right and getting it into
152. 5:22legislation is really important to
153. 5:24making sure that happens.
154. 5:25>> Okay. But Mr. Murray, this report is
155. 5:27calling for urgent systemic reform and
156. 5:30there are hundreds, thousands of babies
157. 5:32being born in hospitals across the
158. 5:34country every single week and we can't
159. 5:38get a date on when this commission is
160. 5:39going to be. I mean, can you at least
161. 5:40give us an indication like before the
162. 5:42end of the year?
163. 5:44>> Um, well, I I honestly don't want to
164. 5:47give you a date that I can't stand
165. 5:48behind 100% because there's been too
166. 5:51many examples.
167. 5:52>> The ambition be before the end of the
168. 5:54year. Well, I I want to make sure it's
169. 5:56in place, the the commissioner role is
170. 5:58in place and someone is appointed to
171. 5:59that role as soon as possible. What I
172. 6:01can tell you is by the end of this year,
173. 6:03uh we will have produced a comprehensive
174. 6:05um action plan through the task force
175. 6:07that I chair. Um and the role of the
176. 6:10commissioner will be to help make sure
177. 6:12that comprehensive action plan is then
178. 6:14implemented. So by the end of this year
179. 6:17uh we will have that plan uh which will
180. 6:19be based on all the recommendations from
181. 6:20Baronos Amos' report from Donna
182. 6:23Okendon's report um into the the uh
183. 6:26devastating failures in Nottingham other
184. 6:28reports which have been done in recent
185. 6:30years into failings in maternity
186. 6:31services all of those recommendations
187. 6:33rather than being accepted and sitting
188. 6:36on a shelf gathering dust they will all
189. 6:38go into the task force. a comprehensive
190. 6:40action plan will be produced by the end
191. 6:41of this year and then a key role for the
192. 6:43commissioner when they're in place will
193. 6:45be to make sure that plan is put into
194. 6:47action.
195. 6:49>> There are so many other parts of this
196. 6:50inquiry that we need to talk about. Um
197. 6:53but but so many people uh critics of of
198. 6:56the review saying it should have gone
199. 6:58further that it should have been a a
200. 6:59full public inquiry with statutory
201. 7:02powers to call witnesses and they would
202. 7:04like that to happen now. Are they wrong
203. 7:07to call for that?
204. 7:10They're not wrong to call for that. I
205. 7:11can understand where that feeling comes
206. 7:13from very strongly. A very strong desire
207. 7:16uh for real accountability uh for people
208. 7:19who have been involved in some of the
209. 7:21failings in maternity services or
210. 7:23involved in covering things up uh when
211. 7:25they've gone wrong. Um you know, I know
212. 7:28from talking to families that some
213. 7:29people favor a public inquiry, others
214. 7:32have a different view um on that. at
215. 7:34this stage I'm not taking anything off
216. 7:36the table. Uh but I think that focus on
217. 7:38accountability is crucial and if I can
218. 7:41just say one important point on that. Um
219. 7:44last week in response to the publication
220. 7:46of Donna Oendon's uh report into what
221. 7:49had happened in Nottingham um I
222. 7:51announced that the new duty of Canandor
223. 7:54uh which will come into force once the
224. 7:56Hillsborough law is in place uh that
225. 7:59will apply to future maternity
226. 8:01investigations. So we've got
227. 8:03investigations which Donna Oendon is
228. 8:05going to be undertaking into maternity
229. 8:07services in Leeds um in Sussex. In those
230. 8:10reviews and any any future reviews, the
231. 8:12duty of cander will apply and that will
232. 8:14mean we can never again have a situation
233. 8:17where senior leadership in the NHS
234. 8:20refuse to take part in in the
235. 8:22investigations. That helps to drive
236. 8:24accountability and make sure that people
237. 8:26in the future can't get away uh with not
238. 8:28taking part in investigations which are
239. 8:30taking place.
240. 8:32Mr. Murray, thank you very much indeed.
241. 8:35>> Um, Louise, listening to everything that
242. 8:38the health secretary was saying now, I
243. 8:39wonder what you make of that.
244. 8:43>> Look, I think it's so important that
245. 8:44everybody is speaking about this and the
246. 8:46time is now for change. It's interesting
247. 8:48to hear about the duty of candle because
248. 8:49I didn't know about that. But ultimately
249. 8:52it does feel as though the issues are
250. 8:55consistently just kicked into long grass
251. 8:57and without having a firm date I don't
252. 8:59know whether
253. 9:04it just doesn't feel like the
254. 9:05responsibility is there.
255. 9:08Um so we we will keep pushing and we
256. 9:11will not give up on this and we will
257. 9:12make sure that it happens.
258. 9:14>> And it was interesting from what he said
259. 9:15just then that that the idea of a full
260. 9:17public inquiry he said was not off the
261. 9:19table. He's not saying no to that
262. 9:22completely.
263. 9:23>> Well, and he's mentioned about these
264. 9:24subsequent inquiries into Leeds and and
265. 9:26the other hospital trusts. Um,
266. 9:28ultimately, as an affected parent
267. 9:29myself, I totally understand why other
268. 9:31affected parents would want a statutory
269. 9:33inquiry because
270. 9:35people want to uncover what's happened
271. 9:38to them and they want to get to the root
272. 9:40cause of where all of these issues are
273. 9:42and to see if there has been any
274. 9:43criminal behavior. You know, I I totally
275. 9:46understand that because I wouldn't, you
276. 9:48know, I'd be lying if I said I didn't
277. 9:49want there to be an investigation into
278. 9:51my hospital. Is it going to get to a
279. 9:53point where we only start to take this
280. 9:55seriously if major central London
281. 9:58hospitals are being investigated?
282. 10:00Will there then be a shift in
283. 10:02perspective?
284. 10:04That's how I view it.
285. 10:07Thank you so much, Louise, for for
286. 10:09coming in and for for staying with us uh
287. 10:11for that part of the interview as well
288. 10:12and for for moms to be who are watching
289. 10:15this morning and feeling anxious. Have
290. 10:16you got a quick message for that you'd
291. 10:19like to leave them with on a day like
292. 10:21this?
293. 10:21>> I think the key thing is is just to
294. 10:25speak to friends that have been through
295. 10:26the experience and educate yourself as
296. 10:28best as you can. Um, I do know people
297. 10:31that have had amazing birth experience.
298. 10:34So, it it is possible, but it's just
299. 10:35about
300. 10:37advocating for yourself and remembering
301. 10:40that you know your body best. So, so
302. 10:44listen to your instincts and and
303. 10:45remember the power of yes and no.