YT YouTube2Text

YouTube2Text → Transcripts → Louise Perry on re-enchanting sex, marriage and relationships

Louise Perry on re-enchanting sex, marriage and relationships — Transcript

by Seen & Unseen · 11,059 words · 1,780 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

Open in transcriber Summarize with AI Download SRT/VTT

Full transcript

0:00the problem with sexual disenchantment
0:02is that people don't actually behave as
0:03a sexual disenchantment is true
0:05people actually don't feel sexual
0:07disenchantment to be true that's
0:09probably also true for disenchantment of
0:11the natural world you know we we have a
0:13deep intuitive feeling
0:15that actually sex is special for some
0:17reason
0:18and may it may be as as basic as you
0:21know that that has evolved in us for
0:22some reason there's a there are there's
0:24something adaptive about us believing
0:25that sex is especially different from
0:27other social interactions
0:29um regardless that's how human beings
0:31feel about it and if you go around
0:33trying to pretend otherwise you will
0:36generally make yourself miserable and
0:38make other people miserable
0:41[Music]
0:52welcome to yet another episode of the
0:55reenchanting podcast I am Bell Tindall
0:57and I'm Justin Briley and if this is
1:00your first time stumbling Upon Our
1:01podcast we basically take it as an
1:03opportunity to chat to some extremely
1:05interesting people about how the how and
1:08if the Christian faith can re-enchant
1:11certain elements of culture and Society
1:13we are part of seeing an unseen so do
1:16find us there along with all of their
1:17other content and we are joined today by
1:20Louise Perry we're so excited very
1:22excited thank you excited just the
1:24little disclaimer from the top
1:26um that we will be talking quite frankly
1:28I hope about all things sex and probably
1:31a bit of sexual violence as well so this
1:33is your warning that if for any reason
1:35this isn't a good time to be indulging
1:37in those topics consider yourself won't
1:39yeah
1:40um Louise welcome along uh you I'll just
1:43give a little the you know rundown of
1:45what you do you can correct any of this
1:47if it's in any way outdated journalist
1:49author advocate for women's rights um
1:51and your recent book the Case against
1:53the sexual Revolution I think has been
1:54Making Waves since it was published
1:56perhaps more waves than you anticipated
1:58it would make but essentially it's about
2:00the way you changed your mind about
2:02parts of the feminist movement and its
2:05Embrace of sexual freedom and hook up
2:06culture and so on and so we're going to
2:08be talking about that on the podcast
2:09today yeah I'm very excited there's a uh
2:12the recommendation I think Julie Bendel
2:14gives at the at the Forefront of it and
2:16I think she ends the recommendation by
2:18saying if you're one of those feminists
2:19that think that this book isn't for you
2:21give it a go anyway and I held my hands
2:23up I was one of those so um I'm so
2:25excited to dig into some of that with
2:26you but we always start with the same
2:28question because here we are Lambeth
2:30Palace Library uh in front of a pretty
2:33impressive Skyline and so we always
2:35start we ease people in with what books
2:38are on your bedside table right now
2:40so I am currently reading hags by
2:43Victoria Smith oh yeah I've just been
2:46published in Victoria as a friend
2:48um which is all about the demonization
2:50of older women
2:53um which is also a theme that I touched
2:55up in the book
2:57um I've also
2:58um confessionally rereading Harry Potter
3:00I just finished the third book and I
3:03actually found that um I hadn't read it
3:04since becoming a mother
3:06and now I find parts of it
3:10so much more emotionally affecting than
3:12I thought yeah so much more yeah because
3:14I I think that you know how many
3:16children's books are about orphans in
3:18some capacity and when you read them as
3:19a child you're like yeah whatever often
3:22so it just kind of rolls off your back
3:23whereas when you read them as a parent
3:26they just you know they really strike
3:28you in the heart or at least they do me
3:30so yeah I I've been I get the chances
3:33each of my kids has grown up to reread
3:36the Narnia stories to them and so it's a
3:39bit of a you know a guilty pleasure of
3:41my own you know to be able to kind of
3:42dig back into them and I have very
3:44similar feelings about some of the
3:45stories there it's it's a good excuse so
3:48perhaps as as I I know you've got a
3:51fairly new new child uh almost two
3:53almost so we're not yet reading so when
3:55or Harry Potter I imagine but but I'm
3:57sure you'll get another another chance
3:59to for
4:00um you say well let's talk about your
4:03work for a second
4:04um because I so obviously doing homework
4:07for this I thought before we dig into
4:09your book
4:10um I've seen you called an anti-feminist
4:13a counter feminist a new Puritan and
4:15Arch conservative I think was when a
4:18radical feminist which is interesting
4:20with all the others so I thought just
4:21from the top I would love to give you an
4:24opportunity how and or if you define
4:27yourself
4:29to sort of put your own labels on
4:31yourself where do you sit right now and
4:33is that static or actually does that
4:35depend on when you're being asked I've
4:38been called bed left wing and right wing
4:40completely confidently by different okay
4:42which I always think is really
4:44interesting the fact that people can be
4:45absolutely certain in one way or another
4:48um I mean if I in terms of political
4:50Compass I'm probably somewhere on the
4:53economic left and the cultural rights
4:54okay sometimes called the post-liberal
4:57quadrant which is actually the quadrant
4:59where most voters are found but almost
5:01no yeah politicians has to be found it's
5:03basically the most underrepresented
5:05quadrant in British politics and in
5:06other any other
5:07um
5:08countries as well
5:10um
5:11in terms of feminism I mean I do I do
5:14call myself a feminist
5:16um
5:17the term that I've sort of adopted was
5:19one coin by Mary Harrington who's our um
5:22writer unheard an author and a friend of
5:24mine which is reactionally feminist
5:26which she came out with a few years ago
5:28and she kind of came up with it as a
5:29joke
5:30because obviously it's preempting people
5:31who are going to call you a reaction to
5:33me so to some extent it's yeah almost
5:34reclaiming the term or having a bit of
5:36fun with the term
5:37um but I also think that it actually
5:39describes something
5:41interesting and meaningful
5:43which is quite different from say being
5:45a conservative feminist because if you
5:47say that you're a conservative feminist
5:48what people think you want is to just
5:50return to the 1950s you know if their
5:521950s with capital T
5:55um which I actually don't think we
5:56should do because I think the 1950s were
5:58really weird decade for all sorts of
5:59reasons and there are all sorts of
6:00dysfunction
6:01in that period that I don't think we
6:02would want to imitate and in general I
6:03think trying to sort of imitate anyone
6:06decade is um Man actually setting
6:09yourself up for failure
6:11um I think what reactionary feminism
6:14does is it has a completely different
6:15relationship with the recent past
6:17and it says
6:19look there are lots of ways in which our
6:21contemporary culture is extremely
6:22strange
6:23compared to how all other people in all
6:25other types and places have lived
6:27and
6:28there are some elements of that
6:30strangeness which make us miserable and
6:32which are unsustainable you know our
6:34relationship with the natural world for
6:35instance and the atomization
6:38justification that many people are
6:40experiencing in contemporary society and
6:41so on these are bad themes
6:44um
6:46what we can do
6:48that is instructive in looking at the
6:51past and looking at other cultures is to
6:54say what are the common threads here
6:56and if we don't believe in the progress
6:57narrative if we don't think that history
7:00just keeps getting better and better you
7:02know the Arc of the universe burning
7:03towards Justice the Martin Luther King
7:04phrase if you don't believe in that
7:05which I don't
7:07um
7:08then we can start from the premise that
7:10actually our ancestors weren't bad and
7:11stupid
7:13that they probably had some insights
7:15into human beings and the sort of social
7:17structures and ideas that actually
7:19produce flourishing societies and and
7:21allow individuals to flourish and if you
7:24can look at those common themes across
7:25different societies you can use that as
7:28a guiding principle
7:29in understanding what's good for
7:32people what's good for women what's good
7:34for families so one example I would give
7:36is every society has some sort of notion
7:38of marriage
7:39okay it's unheard of except for us right
7:42now you know for there to be no formally
7:46recognized institution of marriage which
7:48is sort of universal accepted by
7:50everyone and that can obviously look
7:52like different things but I think that's
7:54a starting point you can go from you can
7:56say okay no other Society has ever
7:58managed to flourish without something
8:01like marriage that suggests we probably
8:03can't either
8:04hmm
8:05yeah that's interesting you say um
8:08that your experience working at a um a
8:13let me get this Dad right a women's
8:14Refuge is that web crisis center right
8:17crisis center
8:18um really formed your the feminism that
8:22you have now do you want to tell us a
8:23little bit about that and how formative
8:25that was
8:26um
8:27it's part of my age I guess because I
8:29did this straight out of University so
8:30it was that point where you're still
8:33um
8:34learning about the world you know I
8:36think that anyone who hasn't gone
8:37through some sort of ideological shift
8:38and only about that age
8:41um
8:42has has made an error somewhere because
8:44I think that
8:45you you ought to change your mind about
8:48things
8:49you ought to you know any anyone who
8:52just agrees with absolutely everything
8:54that's offered to them as part of the
8:55sort of political package if they're in
8:57group is probably
8:59lying to themselves in some way so yes
9:02there's something I was going through
9:03that period anyway at that age
9:05um and also because it was a
9:07confrontation for me someone who'd been
9:09schooled in academic feminism and I'd
9:11done women's studies at Oxford and you
9:13know the very the real Ivory Tower stuff
9:15it was it it was
9:17um
9:18it was a reminder that that's not really
9:20what the real world is like and it
9:21didn't really matter the stuff that I
9:23had learned in seminars didn't map onto
9:25reality okay
9:27um what kind of stuff what was the
9:29specifics of what you were seeing versus
9:31the theory that was supposedly
9:34explaining the cultural the behavior
9:36that you were kind of in front of it so
9:39one example is that
9:41um academic feminism has almost nothing
9:43to say about motherhood
9:44and almost nothing to say about actually
9:46biology even you know that's what I was
9:49taught University had so much to do with
9:52uh gender performance
9:54an appearance and representation all the
9:56superficialities of gender which you
9:59know if you understand them in those
10:00ways then you can understand them to be
10:01easily dissolved
10:04the cultural reform whereas actually
10:06that's not how people live their lives
10:08that the differences actually between
10:09the Sexes are profound on a physical
10:12level in particular and
10:15um
10:17yeah women and girls who are not part of
10:19that academic sphere
10:21um
10:22oh I mean yes I just I remember having
10:25to sit down with with um young women um
10:28who I was working with and go through
10:30some of the crazy forms that we had you
10:33know asking them whether they were like
10:34polysexual and that sort of thing and
10:36obviously these girls had no idea what I
10:37was talking about like this ridiculous
10:39jargon that had been invented by the
10:41academy
10:43I was just so embarrassed to have to
10:46repeat it so yeah so I mean I was
10:48already kind of skeptical of a lot of um
10:49academic feminism but that was really
10:51the nail in the coffin right
10:53I mean the book in a sense came out of
10:56your experience of having been schooled
10:58in that sort of academic feminism as you
11:00called it and then the experience of
11:02seeing the real life situations in front
11:04of you in the red crisis center and
11:07um
11:08and the book comes for those who haven't
11:11read it to You could argue surprisingly
11:14Christian conclusions in terms of sexual
11:16ethics and so on you you basically come
11:17out by the end saying there is a single
11:20marriage in monogamy and it's it's the
11:23best of the options out there if you
11:25like for safeguarding women's uh dignity
11:30and value and
11:31um well-being essentially in in a what
11:35is otherwise a very
11:36uh difficult socio-evolutionary kind of
11:39package that we get you work writing at
11:41the position of Faith
11:43um you weren't doing a very sort of
11:44socio-evolutionary kind of analysis of
11:46the whole thing were you kind of
11:47surprised at where you eventually landed
11:49as you sort of worked those arguments
11:51through I sort of commence myself
11:53generation of the book actually because
11:55I because I started off yes with more
11:56radical feminist ideas and on many
11:58points I do still agree with radical
12:01feminism on issues like prostitution and
12:02pornography and and so on
12:06um
12:07where I diverge from a lot of radical
12:09feminists is that for instance on the
12:10marriage issue
12:11and in having more um
12:16respect for some traditional
12:17institutions in terms of their capacity
12:19to protect women's interests and
12:21children's interests I think that what
12:23we've seen post-sexual Revolution and
12:25which obviously coincides perfectly with
12:28the processity christianization which is
12:30the same great historical event really
12:31of the last century
12:33is um has been a tearing down of those
12:35institutions and norms and an attempt to
12:38sort of
12:39um reconstruct Society
12:42on a new image and I think that that has
12:45proved so far to mostly have been a
12:47failure
12:48and has actually left most of the most
12:50vulnerable people
12:51worse off
12:53including women and children I mean I
12:55think that the real
12:56the real losers from the sexual
12:58revolution in particular are poor women
13:01why so what what are the specifics that
13:03you would point to because there are
13:06some ways in which women are inherently
13:08more vulnerable than men in all times
13:09and places you know we're smaller
13:11physically than men we're more
13:12vulnerable to violence we get pregnant
13:15um which has all you know is is a joy
13:17and a Wonder but also brings a little
13:19sorts of
13:21um pain and vulnerability and
13:24poor women are particularly
13:27vulnerable because of
13:29you know someone had a sex industry
13:32has always been the terrible threat
13:36hanging above poor woman's heads and
13:38what we've seen perceptrification has
13:40not actually been any effort to
13:42um protect women from that fate it has
13:45instead been a repackaging of it to say
13:47that you know sex workers work sex
13:49workers empowering all that kind of limb
13:51loss over what is actually an ancient
13:53form of
13:54um exploitation and oppression
13:57so I don't think that we've actually
14:00um
14:01I don't think that this social
14:02transformation has done a good job of
14:05actually delivering
14:07fans and quality and all of the things
14:09that many of its proponents
14:11hope for it
14:12I think that it is actually
14:15the phrase I use in the book is um
14:17freedom for the pike is death for the
14:18minnow if you just insert greater
14:21Freedom into into a system you know if
14:23you push the freedom lever
14:26some people will benefit from that the
14:29people you benefit from that are usually
14:30actually going to people be the people
14:32who are already in the strongest
14:33position to begin with who are already
14:35in a position to take advantage of these
14:37new
14:38these new opportunities that freedom
14:40brings with it and that will sometimes
14:42mean exploiting
14:44weaker people
14:45the example that I use in the first
14:47chapter book is Marilyn Monroe and you
14:49have now
14:51um partly because it's a lovely neat
14:53story because they were both born in the
14:54same year and you know and they spent
14:56their lives in in La most of it and
15:00they're also buried in the same place
15:01because Hefner
15:03um in his final Act of creepiness be it
15:05the Crypt next I didn't know that and
15:07for some reason when I read that I found
15:09that so I don't know why but I found
15:11that so creepy it's like that really hit
15:13me on like uh yeah on a level that I
15:17wasn't expecting
15:18particularly given because Hefner they
15:20never actually met in life but he had
15:23the the success of Playboy was partly
15:26the result of the fact that he had
15:28um published nudes of Marilyn without
15:31her consent in the first issue
15:34um that he bought from the photographer
15:36but she didn't see a penny and
15:38um she was apparently really distrusted
15:40this but okay you know
15:43um this this is the thing though you
15:45know Hefner was one of these figures who
15:46was able to have an absolute ball during
15:48the sexual Revolution because basically
15:50all the limits historically placed on
15:51his behavior like the expectation of
15:53monogamy or whatever fell away
15:56and the pill arrived on the scene and
15:58allowed him to more easily persuade
16:00women into bed who might otherwise have
16:01been reluctant and um yeah he was um
16:06he was he has he's a sort of totemic
16:09figure in terms of you know the great
16:10beneficiary of the sexual Revolution
16:11unlike I would say Marilyn Monroe he
16:14actually lives a fairly miserable life
16:16you um you coined the phrase sexual
16:18disenchantment which obviously caught my
16:20eye because we're on the re-enchanting
16:21podcast they derived from Max favor
16:25um can you talk me through exactly what
16:27you mean by that to him
16:29um sexual disenchantment and and how you
16:31are seeing that play out
16:33so I should I should say I didn't coin
16:35the term I stole the term stole it from
16:37through Aaron sparium with his
16:39permission to maybe not stealing uh he's
16:41an American writer who wrote a great
16:42ethical yes yes some years ago
16:46um uh what Aaron means by the time and
16:49the way I use it as well is
16:52um yes so so taking from Weber's idea of
16:55disenchantment of the natural world that
16:57yeah that proceeds from the
16:58enlightenment
17:00um the same sort of process happens as
17:02part of the sexual Revolution where
17:03previously
17:05um sex and all the things associated
17:06with it marriage and so on
17:08um
17:09was enchanted had a had a not just a
17:12special status but had a sacred status
17:15and then you have that Falling Away
17:18over the course of the second half of
17:19the 20th century
17:20until we had this new idea of sex or you
17:23know the kind of progressive mainstream
17:25has a view of sex that it actually
17:27doesn't really mean anything that you
17:29can buy you can sell it it's not much
17:31different from sort of making someone a
17:33cup of coffee playing tennis with
17:37someone or whatever it's just a kind of
17:38neutral social act which you can imbue
17:40with meaning if you want to but you
17:41don't have to
17:43and actually the idea that it does have
17:45any kind of
17:46um specialness or God forbid sacredness
17:50is anathema to this worldview the
17:53problem with sexual disenchantment is
17:54that people don't actually behave as of
17:55sexual disenchantment is true
17:57because people actually don't feel
17:59sexual disenchantment to be true that's
18:01probably also true for disenchantment of
18:03the natural world you know we we have a
18:05deep intuitive feeling
18:07that actually sex is special for some
18:10reason
18:10and may it may be as as basic as you
18:13know that that has evolved in us for
18:15some reason there's there are there's
18:16something adaptive about us believing
18:18that sex is specially different from
18:20other social interactions
18:21um regardless that's how human beings
18:23feel about it and if you go around
18:26trying to pretend otherwise you will
18:28generally make yourself miserable and
18:30make other people
18:31miserable you know one example of this
18:34would be people who tried desperately
18:36hard to overcome feelings of jealousy in
18:40say polyamorous Community where people
18:42having multiple simultaneous
18:43relationships with one another and are
18:45trying to do it ethically
18:47and they're trying to sort of suppress
18:49all these Natural Instincts towards
18:51jealousy
18:52it's astonishingly difficult actually to
18:54do that and what normally ends up
18:56happening is that people try and try and
18:58try and blows up in their faces and it's
18:59actually really rare for people to
19:00successfully kind of run into those
19:02relationships
19:03similarly I would say particularly for
19:04women
19:05who are trying to have enjoy casual sex
19:08and view hookup culture that's just sort
19:11of new Leisure activity that's suddenly
19:14been destigmatized and has been made
19:16available to women it's a very dominant
19:18view
19:20um among feminists and sort of not
19:21particularly 1990s onwards which is
19:24really the sort of the target of my
19:26whole book
19:27um what
19:29there are some women for whom I think
19:31they really can enjoy casual sex like
19:33that who can really have sex like a man
19:35so that's the expression used in Sex in
19:37the City
19:38um
19:39but actually the vast majority of women
19:40don't really feel like that and what
19:42they will normally end up experiencing
19:44is
19:46is deep instinctive feelings of
19:48discomfort and distress
19:51which are very difficult to articulate
19:53because if you believe in sexual
19:55disenchantment and if you're trying to
19:56pretend that actually sex doesn't mean
19:58anything how can you how can you express
20:01this I mean the only way the only
20:03terminology you really have available to
20:04you is the terminology of consent
20:07but consent is a very simple binary
20:11this is a legalistic idea really
20:13and it's quite possible to consent to
20:16Something in legal terms
20:18but to not enjoy it or to be made
20:21unhappy long term by it or to be left
20:23with kind of vague feelings of distress
20:25which might be quite hard to articulate
20:27and that is what an enormous number of
20:29young women experience in hookup culture
20:31which is the prevailing sexual culture
20:35um among young people in the 21st
20:37century okay I guess to put it brutally
20:40able to put it as if
20:42sex isn't unique then sexual assault
20:45isn't unique but we know that it is you
20:48know facts isn't sacred then rape isn't
20:51particularly awful then rape is just
20:54theft yeah yeah and sexual harassment is
20:56just see that yeah people don't people
20:58don't feel like that no that's not the
21:01way we legally regard it no yeah so we
21:03we do we we have codified in law and in
21:08certain sort of social ideas that sex is
21:11different
21:14um
21:15and yet we sort of the sexual
21:17disenchantment charades
21:19goes on
21:20yeah I I noticed that um you mentioned
21:23Sex in the City which was kind of the
21:25defining sort of program for
21:27you know these young women in Manhattan
21:30sort of living their best life free to
21:32sleep with whoever they want to sleep
21:33with there's a spin-off series 25 years
21:36later that features Sarah Jessica Parker
21:38again in Carrie Bradshaw modem and I
21:42haven't seen it I'll I'll be honest I've
21:43read a few reviews and it feels like
21:45they're still kind of trying to do the
21:47same thing but at 25 years older and and
21:49I felt slightly kind of sad about it
21:51because I felt like
21:52is that sort of
21:54is that life kind of
21:56if if you kind of go go to that stage
21:59and you're still kind of just trying to
22:00get something out of you know the next
22:03person the next bed that you're hopping
22:05into or out of I I don't know maybe
22:07that's me very much showing my kind of
22:10where I come from on this issue but but
22:12do you get the sense that
22:14that Sex in the City attitude is still
22:17the prevailing one or do you feel like
22:18culture is starting to turn against that
22:21in any way that that sort of maybe
22:23seeing that
22:24there were some downsides to this as
22:26well as you know the supposed upsides
22:29my uh friend Catherine D
22:32um who's a journalist has an interesting
22:34Theory About Sex and the City which is
22:37that it was always kind of intended as a
22:39joke as an in-joke I mean it is actually
22:41funny we forget this it's okay
22:44um but that it was written by
22:47and intended for the people in that kind
22:50of Manhattan milieu you know the people
22:52who were
22:54um materialistic and and and a bit Vain
22:58and bed hopping and all this other stuff
23:00and it was sort of intended as like a
23:02um we do these things and we hurt
23:04ourselves and and sort of poking a bit
23:07of fun at the end group but it was so
23:10enormously successful no one really got
23:12the joke because people from outside of
23:15that world sorry it's glamorous yeah
23:16yeah it's a mother's own success and
23:19yeah and saw it as being aspirational
23:21yeah um and there are lots of other
23:23examples um
23:25subsequently of that being held up as a
23:27really aspirational model I mean it's
23:29basically women behaving like terrible
23:30men
23:31right
23:33um it's women behaving like Don Draper
23:35except without
23:37without even being married you know like
23:38that which is always just struck me as a
23:41really bizarre kind of um
23:44basis on which to face any kind of
23:46feminist project to say well men have
23:48always behaved like
23:50um lasarios and you know
23:53a narcissists or whatever women should
23:56get a bite of the pie rather than saying
23:58actually maybe you've men behaved a bit
24:00more like women
24:01that would be a that would be about a
24:04culture but but this is a this is a very
24:07deep richer thing and um
24:10seeing masculine ways of doing things
24:13including sexuality as being
24:16aspirational it's very very deep within
24:20on feminism and I would I'd say deep
24:22within the culture and I actually think
24:23I mean I generally don't use the word
24:26patriarchy because I think it isn't very
24:29helpful I I mean in in anthropological
24:32terms it obviously has a very clear
24:33meaning a culture where
24:35um
24:36positions of power and authority are are
24:38exclusively male
24:41um we don't actually live in one of
24:42those though I mean we did up until
24:43relatively recently but not anymore
24:45we've had a whole bunch of female prime
24:47ministers that you know it's clearly not
24:48the case that those sort of positions of
24:50power reserved for men only
24:52but I think that what people often mean
24:54when they use the word patriarchy in a
24:55much vague sense not in the strict
24:57anthropological sense is a feeling that
24:59masculinity is just higher status
25:03in a vague kind of way no like
25:06um
25:06words associated there's something that
25:08Jermaine Greer observed many years ago
25:09that words associated with women will
25:12often over time become derogatory so
25:14where's a mistress or tart which used to
25:16be quite neutral terms will over time
25:18become
25:20um shameful
25:22um or when
25:25professions
25:26seen influx a woman into them so
25:29teaching would be one example medicine
25:31is now another example right now you
25:33sent you tend to see a drop in status on
25:35a drop in pay
25:37for those professions there's something
25:39about and it's hard to pin down and it's
25:41hard to know exactly what the cause is
25:42but I think people
25:44I think people correctly recognize it to
25:46be true that there is a general feeling
25:49that men and masculinity are just a bit
25:51more High status and I think that the
25:53Trap that some strains of feminism have
25:56fallen into is is to accept that
26:00accept that premise and say well in that
26:03case what we want is for women to be
26:05more like men and the problem is that
26:07women can't be men for a whole bunch of
26:09reasons and actually women trying to be
26:11men normally just makes women
26:13more unhappy so what would this is a
26:16huge question if that's not a valid
26:19solution what would you put on the table
26:21instead
26:23trying to reassert the value of women in
26:26a femininity okay
26:28so for instance you know reasserting the
26:30value of motherhood rather than simply
26:33saying that um
26:35women should be permitted to avoid
26:37motherhood at all costs
26:39which is basically what most secular
26:41feminism has said to this point and is
26:43that what you feel our current culture
26:44is
26:46saying whether obviously or uh so you
26:49know in a kind of subconscious way to
26:51women today well especially just a
26:53housewife right how often do you hear
26:55that said about any other you know
26:58um
26:58yes I think that being
27:01um
27:02I mean it's not quite it's not that
27:04people sort of it's not misogyny per se
27:06I mean misogyny is actually quite rare
27:08and true misogynists there are very few
27:11of those and people don't hate mothers
27:14you know we all love our mums
27:16and I think the figure of the mother in
27:19a cultural way is still
27:22um prized but we don't and obviously
27:26respect them either and you see this in
27:28public policy I mean just now we just
27:30had the news we just had the budget come
27:32out with um enormous sums funneled
27:36towards encouraging women back into the
27:37workforce
27:38because the work of the home is not
27:41considered to be as valuable
27:43just straightforwardly the government
27:44says so as as that's not as valuable to
27:47that budget yeah it's not as value
27:49women's has a tax revenue and the
27:51government doesn't have any way or
27:52hasn't really tried to find any way of
27:55putting a number on the value of
27:59um
28:00children
28:02which a lot of women want to do
28:05they just they do it's a it's it's no
28:07matter how much we try and persuade
28:09women to just behave like men and to go
28:11into the workforce just as men have
28:12always we're not always done but
28:14whatever just as men do
28:16um
28:17poll after poll shows an enormous number
28:19of women still feel this great sort of
28:20tug towards the home and yes the
28:25cultural messaging they received is that
28:26that is that is a flaw
28:29in them right
28:31it's it's interesting because in a sense
28:33you're saying things that at one level
28:36are almost Politically Incorrect
28:38arguably you know in in our culture
28:42um but you're not saying them because I
28:44don't get the sense Alicia saying that
28:45because you're some Arch conservative
28:46who just wants to return to this you
28:48know some golden ear of the 1950s but
28:51because you genuinely feel like
28:53if anything just from a socio
28:55evolutionary point of view we can't deny
28:58certain aspects of of who we are because
29:00of our past and the way that we're
29:02shaped by by all kinds of forces in that
29:05sense
29:06um what's what's been the response
29:08though I mean are you uh are you finding
29:10a lot of pushback to this sort of you
29:12know your own change uh as the way you
29:15looks at these things and the you know
29:17what kind of response has the book had
29:18as it's done the rounds now so wishable
29:20positive than I thought right I really
29:22was sort of guarding my loins I thought
29:24that this would be I remember actually
29:25in the finer weeks before the book was
29:27about to be published I thought have I
29:28just ruined my life
29:30I can't stop it now it's out there you
29:32know it's on its way to Bookshop so to
29:34speak
29:35um but actually it has been enormously
29:37positive normally 95 positive yeah so
29:40interesting yeah I think what I would
29:43say about the book
29:44um which is an absolute like grenade of
29:46a book it'll rock your world if you
29:48is I think coming at it and I think none
29:51of you what you um
29:53of written comes from a particular
29:55Christian Perspective which is
29:56interesting
29:57um I
29:58um I work at lamb of Palace so take
30:01three guesses I do come from orgasm as
30:03well and yeah I I think that I would
30:05position myself maybe a bit more um
30:08less conservative which is really
30:10interesting but I think what I think
30:13about the book is
30:15read it because if you disagree with it
30:17it's still an incredibly written book
30:18and it's a genuine joy to read and so
30:21it's quite fun to disagree with but if
30:23you agree with it
30:25you need to shout it from the rooftops
30:27because it's
30:28what you're doing is in a very bold and
30:30very brave way trying to explain this
30:33phrase is coming up a lot on this
30:34podcast maybe it's me you're sort of
30:36trying to explain water to fish if you
30:38know what I mean in a really bold way
30:41um so it's yeah it's very much and I or
30:45you might find yourself thinking a bit
30:48of disagreement and a bit of agreement
30:49but either way I think I imagine that
30:52there's a lot of people who read it who
30:54are like genuinely thankful that they
30:56feel that you're putting language to
30:58what you have already said is quite a
31:00our feelings that are hard to put
31:02language too
31:04I've had so many messages of various
31:08kinds or women coming up to me when I've
31:10done events whatever
31:12um from young women primarily or their
31:15parents sometimes okay who who who did
31:18not know this stuff
31:20I mean I sort of think the book is
31:22actually shockingly obvious and I do say
31:24like a couple of times the book like
31:26there's nothing really original in here
31:27like this is like I literally have a a
31:30chapter of a final chapter called listen
31:32to your mother where I say look actually
31:34this is basically old wives kind of
31:35stuck like ask any matrical figure and
31:39she'll basically be able to tell you all
31:40of this because it's actually just sort
31:42of
31:43um
31:44there is some sort of essential truths
31:46about human beings which most people
31:47will come to learn as they spend enough
31:49time in the world and you know the
31:52project that I am the political project
31:53that I'm taking aim at is one that
31:55actually tries to deny those
31:57but I think we'll always ultimately mail
31:58because you can't fight against reality
32:01for that long and win but I've had so
32:04many young women who will say to me I
32:06didn't know this this is completely new
32:08information I have no idea and
32:11um
32:12and actually feel amazingly I mean this
32:15was this was what I wanted all along
32:16that
32:18having read someone put it down on paper
32:20gives them permission to listen to their
32:22intuitions and to not try and sort of do
32:24battle against reality anymore I got
32:26this lovely email for instance from the
32:29mum of a young woman
32:31who I went I went go into details but
32:33basically she had the young woman had
32:35had her be on a podcast or something and
32:37I read the book and her mum had read the
32:38book and they'd had a conversation about
32:39it and then the the daughter had gone
32:42off to University and had had a
32:46particular incident where um a boy that
32:48she fancied and was hoping to have a
32:50relationship with
32:51had basically showed up at her dorm
32:53expecting casual sex and made it clear
32:54that he wasn't interested in a
32:55relationship he just wanted to have
32:56casual sex with her and she said in
32:58previously she would have just said yes
33:00basically to be polite
33:03slash to you know in the Hope oh we know
33:05maybe maybe world's first autism or
33:07something like that
33:08um but she didn't she turned him away it
33:10was a very brave thing to do and she
33:12said that it was because the phrase her
33:15mom used was that having read this book
33:18she felt armed with permission
33:21that's so interesting and and I guess
33:24must be very gratifying to feel like
33:25enormously in an actual reference in a
33:28real situation I just thought that was
33:30such a beautiful phrases were on with
33:32permission
33:33um because it's a thing about young
33:34women that and I remember this as having
33:37um once being a woman even an unusually
33:38contrarian one I'm probably like 99 cent
33:40all contrarianism
33:42um
33:44young women are so desperate to please
33:46it's something that men don't always
33:47realize
33:48that actually young women are so tend to
33:51be so acutely sensitive about social
33:53status about what people think about
33:54them about being normal about being nice
33:57about being liked is is such a sort of
33:59driving force it's something that people
34:00tend to lose a little bit with age you
34:01get a little bit more sort of
34:03grouchy and independent but when you're
34:05young that matters so much and so
34:08therefore to say oh well they're
34:10consenting
34:12but yeah in a legal sense I guess they
34:14are but as you said earlier there's
34:16there's consent and there's sort of a
34:18fully orbed sense of what you want and
34:21what actually yeah is the best thing for
34:24you yeah and I just feel like perhaps
34:26that young lady sort of moved from just
34:28the it's quote-unquote consent to
34:30something that was a bit more agile I
34:32I've recognized a bit more of the value
34:33I have and I don't have to yes just
34:35submit to something that isn't actually
34:37I I want to be a bit naughty though
34:39because value said you don't necessarily
34:42agree with everything in the book it
34:44sounded like or sound like you might be
34:45saying that can I can I ask you what
34:47what when some of those things might be
34:49just and see what Louise has to say I
34:51think
34:53my or you answers may be really simple
34:56because you may be saying that's not my
34:57job and that's not what you're intending
34:59to do but
35:00I think we're um I think there's a
35:02pitchfork where if I trace it back
35:04because you
35:05um when you talk about
35:08um sexual and physical violence by man
35:10you go very much on the evolutionary
35:12psychology and evolutionary biology and
35:15sort of reject more of the sociological
35:16you very much nature of this is nature
35:19it's a really oversimplify it whereas I
35:22think naturally I would lean more
35:23towards the nature so then anywhere that
35:25path takes you my nature path takes me
35:28somewhere else and perhaps is sort of
35:31where I'd go with that but my main thing
35:32is I wonder if sometimes sometimes I
35:36just wanted you to
35:38um
35:39be a bit harder on men basically really
35:42because I have people saying the
35:43opposite oh really I just said I'm going
35:46around saying that all men are rapists
35:49maybe yeah no maybe but sort of you know
35:52that you've spoken about that final
35:53chapter listen to another and you end it
35:55with a set of rules for women to do
35:57their best to stay safe and um
35:59those include don't get drunk with with
36:02men
36:03um what other ones were they don't go on
36:05dating apps things like that and so I
36:07think for me
36:09but again this is where you might say
36:11but this wasn't what I was trying to do
36:12is that all of it defeatist is that just
36:14sort of naturalizing
36:17um you don't like the word patriarchy
36:18but you know what I mean naturalizing
36:20what we what you know liberal feminists
36:23perhaps are calling patriarching just
36:24saying it is the way it is
36:26let them you know be it's in their
36:28biological makeup women
36:31you know this is what you need to do
36:33about it you're not the first to use
36:36word to fetest oh okay yeah that's
36:38probably the most
36:40from the feminist side that's probably
36:42the most common criticism okay and I
36:44think
36:46I mean it maybe it is a little bit but
36:49then I also think that it comes back to
36:51that thing about sort of recognizing
36:53some of these essential truths about
36:55human beings you know we don't know of a
36:57society but I haven't been sexual
36:58violence
36:59we don't know if one whether has it
37:01where it hasn't been committed 99 ish
37:05by men
37:07it may be that we've flipped the coin
37:09every single time and it's come up heads
37:11or it may be that there is something
37:13biological that's going on as well which
37:15is not to say there isn't some natural I
37:17think it's nature and nurture okay I
37:19think it's I mean I think that's the
37:20answer to basically every nature nurture
37:22question is it's both it's always right
37:23and um
37:27I suppose what I yeah so things like me
37:30advising women not to get um drunk with
37:33them and they don't know
37:35um not drink they get drunk crucially
37:38um which you know up until I'm told like
37:40the 1990s the ladder era was completely
37:42Common Sense where it wouldn't do that
37:43it's quite a modern phenomenon to think
37:45they're getting really really
37:46um
37:47swashed in public is
37:49isn't it's not looking to see
37:52um is because
37:55I'm very skeptical of the capacity for
37:58education to rectify Millennia sexual
38:02violence
38:03basically and that is pretty much the
38:05only intervention that's really offered
38:07by the sort of standard of performance
38:09position that we have consent workshops
38:11we have sort of cultural
38:14interventions of various kinds like
38:16modeling good behavior on television
38:18sort of stuff and that if we can just
38:20sort of offer a different narrative and
38:22and challenge some of the
38:24um moral ideas
38:26that are seen to be behind such a
38:29violence then everything will sort of
38:30come right
38:32I don't think it's bad to do those
38:34things necessarily but I'm very
38:36skeptical of whether or not we're
38:37actually going to work
38:38and I think that actually what you need
38:40to be thinking more about is I mean
38:43obviously putting sex offenders in
38:44prison
38:45I say this difficult thing to do but
38:47yeah you know that's that's a very
38:49serious project keeping them in prison
38:51as well that's something another
38:52complaint we have with the government
38:53very very short something says often for
38:55some really really dangerous offenders
38:57definitely
38:58um
38:59and it's also has to unfortunately you
39:01know I would I
39:03on a moral level I would love it if
39:05women could do whatever they wanted they
39:07could get as drunk as they wanted if
39:09they could you know go out late walking
39:11alone anywhere in the world they should
39:14be able to do that but realistically
39:16they can't and we all know you know that
39:19the the things that we say to
39:21um our friends and daughters you know
39:23like text me when you get home safe you
39:25know we all do that yeah we all offer
39:27this kind of advice informally
39:30um
39:31but we tend not to say it publicly or
39:34not supposed to sort of acknowledge that
39:36as a natural
39:37um set of directives
39:39and I guess I think I find frustrating
39:41about that and this probably does partly
39:42go back to
39:43working in rope crisis and meeting some
39:46um
39:46girls who didn't really have the
39:48guidance
39:49that I did and that a lot of us do is
39:54some girls have never had anyone say
39:57that to them
39:58no one's ever said you know doing these
40:00things is risky
40:02and they're not being told it publicly
40:04and so how are they supposed to know
40:07you know bearing in mind as well that
40:09the the peak Asia victimization the
40:11modal the modal age correct
40:13victimization is 50. it's younger than
40:15you think so you're often dealing with
40:18women girls who have so little life
40:21experience and have frankly been lied to
40:23by the culture because they think that a
40:25lot of you know go matches the city
40:27whenever a lot of culture
40:28representations
40:29basically pretend as if men and women
40:31are basically the same think also of
40:33things like superhero films or whatever
40:34where you see this like tiny woman of 50
40:37kilos or something you know knocking out
40:39this enormous man like even just
40:40something as basic as physical strength
40:42differences is
40:44frequently denied and it's also
40:46something that I think people just have
40:48less experience of maybe because maybe
40:49we have smaller families fewer siblings
40:51unless like Sue Rough and Tumble with
40:52your brothers you're less likely to play
40:54physical sports or do physical jobs or
40:56whatever you you really could be
40:57ignorant of quite handled diff quite how
41:00much participal Advantage men however
41:02women
41:04if we don't tell girls this how are they
41:06supposed to make
41:08yeah I mean I I and I can understand why
41:11some people will come back and say but
41:13we should expect more of men you know
41:15but there is also that thing in me which
41:17says but when you've got two drunk
41:19people
41:20that's when probably that consent
41:24education talk is not really in the
41:26Forefront of Herman's mind when you've
41:28got someone basically In the Heat of
41:30arousal let's be honest that something
41:34biological is going on as well as you
41:36know and you can obviously hold people
41:38to a cow but there is in a sense just
41:40the Practical reality of what happens
41:43and that there are sensible and less
41:45sensible things to do in in that I can
41:47fully understand kind of that that
41:49perspective but I think there's still I
41:51appreciate what bell says about but
41:53let's not let men off the hook here
41:55because
41:56I don't want you know I don't creepy who
41:59you having to sort of doing their thing
42:00either you know without any sort of
42:02restraint on them there's a sense in
42:04which I don't see your book as simply
42:07giving women advice bottles too but
42:08you're also appealing to
42:10the monogamy it makes demands on both
42:13sides you know uh it is about actually
42:15asking men to constrain themselves at
42:17some levels and that's I mean that's
42:19another critique I've had as well from
42:21from um famous friends and so on that um
42:25you know on the one hand I'm saying that
42:27some unknown minority of men are
42:30socially aggressive and particularly
42:33when they're young and it's sort of hard
42:36to educate them out of that
42:38um it is a minority and then that's the
42:40good news story it really is a minority
42:41like most men are completely safe the
42:43problem is that if you're
42:45a woman walking out alone late at night
42:47you have literally no idea that is so
42:48there's always a risk factor
42:50um
42:51but
42:53on the other hand I'm saying but here
42:55are you know here's why marriage is
42:57actually really good for women here's
42:59how you could you know various kind of
43:00social norms and and structures can
43:03actually Channel men in better
43:04directions and I've had women say no
43:06hang on you really expecting you know
43:08Hugh Hefner of one example
43:11um to be to make a great husband one day
43:14you know do you not think that actually
43:18do you not think that actually sort of
43:19expecting women to form relationships
43:22with men who are actually really very
43:24horrible
43:26is a terrible thing to ask a woman
43:29and I guess I say well I think we're
43:30just talking about
43:33different populations who shade into one
43:35another you know you've got men now who
43:37even in a culture that excuses all kinds
43:41of sexual Hedonism and and exploitation
43:43or whatever still behave
43:45magnificently and still make wonderful
43:48husbands and fathers you know you've got
43:49those you've got those men who seem to
43:51just be
43:52sort of virtuous regardless of context
43:55and then you've got men who probably
43:56need to be in prison for life
43:58so at the other end of the spectrum yeah
44:00and then you've got some space in
44:02between and it's all and it's all Shades
44:04of Gray and I think for instance that if
44:06you say had
44:08um
44:09expect I mean the word I use like
44:11provocatively in the book is chivalry if
44:13you had expectations placed on men
44:14saying well given that you are the
44:16stronger sex given that you have certain
44:19um sort of natural
44:20um advantages it is Therefore your moral
44:23obligation
44:25to
44:26behave better even you know to behave
44:29more in a more sort of self-sacrificing
44:30way all of this
44:32I think that somewhere in that Gray Zone
44:35some men would make themselves into the
44:37best husbands and fathers
44:40and some wouldn't
44:42and that's just life I think I don't
44:44think that there is a utopian option
44:45here
44:46I think that there are better and worse
44:49incentive structures that you can put in
44:50place and I think that our current set
44:53aren't up to the job
44:54that's really interesting I think my
44:57sort of life's Wick
45:00I'm I'm too young to have a last week
45:03but um
45:04I am so passionate about women feeling
45:07like
45:09um Christianity
45:10does not need to be in any way
45:13oppressive or strip them of empowerment
45:15or anything like that because
45:17um to me and so I've got a background in
45:20biblical studies so I'm sort of quite
45:22narrow focused that goes against
45:24everything that
45:26um the Jesus movement was about and I'm
45:29so interested and I was chatting to a
45:31researcher about it just the other week
45:32about how when
45:34Christianity came onto the scene and it
45:36was all very Grassroots and it was you
45:38know absolutely blowing up in certain
45:40cities
45:41um
45:42it was an absolute Revolution for women
45:44yeah and um and that's why it was
45:48predominantly women yeah it was
45:50predominantly vulnerable people and
45:51within that were women and and it was
45:53about making sure that they were safe
45:55they were valued they were seen all of
45:57that sort of thing but then
45:59that's what so what you could say is um
46:03that's the Christian faith right at the
46:05beginning right when it was bubbling up
46:07so actually maybe it's unfair of me to
46:08even call it the Christian faith you
46:10know
46:10um the way the whatever
46:13um it was about say maybe it's similar
46:15to what you're saying is it was about
46:17um
46:18basically telling
46:20men to behave better expecting more of
46:23them because there's you know the
46:25Dignity of every human being this value
46:26placed upon women so it's about not at
46:29using people as possessions not
46:31exploiting people not um using and
46:34abusing people all of that and that's
46:36kind of similar ish to what you're
46:38saying has that majorly surprised you
46:41that you come in alignment in certain
46:44ways I'm not saying in every way with
46:47that because that's one of the most
46:48attractive things about Christianity to
46:50me is um how empowering it is for me as
46:52a woman
46:54it wasn't something that I was as aware
46:57I I didn't know as much about the first
46:58sexual Revelation right it's you know
47:01it's very yeah the Christian sexual
47:02revolution of the first century yeah
47:04um
47:05until I started writing this book and
47:07also actually subsequently I read for
47:09instance Kyle Harper's writing yeah yeah
47:11um and
47:14I mean I should say I mean I call myself
47:17Christian agnostic anyone who's raised
47:19in this culture obviously is deeply has
47:22Christianity deep in their back from
47:23hollandful thank you for that that's
47:25right yeah and it's another guest on
47:27this one yes
47:28um
47:29and so I'm sure to some extent that was
47:31sort of in background for me I mean just
47:32the idea that
47:34um women's vulnerability is not
47:38something to be despised but it's
47:40something to be protected that is
47:42basically a fundamentally Christian idea
47:44it's not something that you know the
47:46Romans thought
47:47for instance no and the idea that say
47:52um
47:53the
47:55the idea that say a slave woman's
47:58sexual violation is is a borrowance
48:02again that is that is an idea that comes
48:04with Christianity and was absolutely not
48:06by any means universally recognized in
48:08the ancient world or indeed in you know
48:10very many other cultures
48:12and that yeah I'm thinking to feminism I
48:15mean I
48:16I actually have a long essay about this
48:18coming up recently which I think I'll
48:19get in a lot of trouble before but I
48:21really do think that
48:23um feminism comes out of Christianity
48:25feminism is completely reliant on
48:28Christian moral principles
48:31and I think that feminists who set
48:33themselves up in opposition to
48:34Christianity you know the handmaid's
48:36tale kind of representation of this sort
48:39of
48:40um I mean people forget that the
48:42handmaid's tale was really written about
48:43the Iranian Revolution but the imagery
48:46from the TV show and so on is all about
48:47puritanism and and sort of setting up
48:49Christianity as the Bogeyman
48:52um I think that of you completely misses
48:55the
48:57the the the the the
48:58legacy of Christianity that isn't that
49:01is still very evident within feminism
49:03and I think that actually feminists who
49:06set themselves up in opposition to
49:07Christianity this is particularly true
49:08in America where honestly Christian
49:09right is much more sort of
49:11um
49:12Fierce and force
49:14are soaring off the branch which they
49:15said
49:17because actually if you really sort of I
49:20the process of de-christianization that
49:22starts in the 1960s where I mean doesn't
49:24start it accelerates in the 1960s it
49:26starts earlier than that I mean
49:28um even in the 19th century you've got
49:30Falling Away of Christian belief Rhymes
49:32or Matthew Arnold was writing about
49:33Andover Beach but in the 1960s you had
49:35that sharp acceleration
49:36and I think it's Tom Holland's who's
49:40described this as being something like a
49:42second Reformation right that's how big
49:44a historical event it is and I am
49:47extremely
49:48[Music]
49:49um
49:51nervous
49:52about what full de-christianization
49:55means and I don't think enough people
49:57think about what it actually means
49:59because I think so many um secular
50:01progressives don't realize quite How
50:04Deeply Christian their thinking is
50:07and they don't realize quite how
50:10quite how unique actually the set of
50:12ideas and how it's super Christianity
50:14are in terms of say you know the radical
50:17sort of spiritual quality of men and
50:18women and of rich and poor and and the
50:20fact that um vulnerable people shouldn't
50:22be exploited they should be protected
50:23you know these kind of really
50:24fundamental ideas what we call human
50:26rights in a silly kind of you know
50:28they're not human rights they're they're
50:30they are um
50:32a culture unique concept theological
50:34premises yeah
50:36um
50:37I think that there are lots of things
50:39this is what my upcoming essay for First
50:41Things is about I think that there are
50:42lots of things that feminists can quite
50:45rightly feel very sort of
50:47dismayed at within Christianity for yeah
50:49the abortion being the big one that is
50:51the big one and that's why of course
50:52it's such a big issue in America in
50:54particular and that's so much and that's
50:56why women show up dressed in handmade
50:58outfits in protesters
51:00um dogs and so on
51:02I also think that
51:06the
51:08abortion was a live political issue in
51:11the first century an infanticide was a
51:13live political issue in the first
51:14century and that was actually one of the
51:15main ways in which
51:17um you know Chris Christian's going to
51:19rubber sheets and rescuing exposed
51:20infants was um
51:22a feature through early church
51:25I don't think that you can have
51:28a religion
51:29which sees vulnerability
51:32as valuable to the extent that
51:34Christianity does without reaching the
51:37conclusion that the unborn child
51:39also is to wear their protection
51:41I don't think you can do that
51:44and the problem therefore with trying to
51:46make arguments in favor of abortion that
51:48are not you know protecting the health
51:50of the mother or in terrible cases of
51:52tragedy you know there sometimes has to
51:55be sort of you can you can defend
51:56abortion I think in sort of self-defense
51:58terms and say that there are some
52:00situations in which it would be
52:01legitimate for someone to kill in
52:02self-defense fruits
52:04that I think is I think that's that
52:07that's that's fine the problem is when
52:09you start making
52:11um arguments in defense of abortion when
52:12you say things like
52:14the fetus is just a parasite it's like
52:17having a wisdom tooth removed you know
52:19there is no moral meaning whatsoever in
52:21this
52:22that I think is when you're getting to
52:24the point where you say okay if you're
52:26trying to do away with this moral
52:28principle the vulnerability is valuable
52:31worthy of protection
52:33where next because feminism it depends
52:36on that idea
52:38what is to stop men you know
52:40re-paganized men right in some
52:42completely de-christianized future
52:43turning around and saying but hang on
52:46women are small and weak and made
52:49smaller and weaker by pregnancy and
52:52childbirth why on Earth should you have
52:53the same political value as husband
52:55which has been the conclusion reached by
52:57many
52:57by many societies you know I think that
53:00I I don't I don't think that
53:02anti-christian feminists have thought
53:03have thought it completely through it's
53:05a bit like the disenchantments again
53:06strip meaning away from everything and
53:08see where it see where it takes you yeah
53:11yeah
53:13in a way everything you've said makes
53:15perfect sense at the same time it sounds
53:17so odd uh because if
53:21you say that you know there are
53:23so many feminists you haven't understood
53:25the Christian Roots or where their own
53:27feminism came from and now stand
53:28essentially against you know traditional
53:31Christian sort of you know views on
53:33sexuality and so on and and to that
53:36extent if you run into anything you you
53:39will run into sort of
53:41but you know potentially very valid
53:43critiques of the way the Christian
53:44church has sometimes handled things you
53:46know the the um the kind of places that
53:49women were put who had children out of
53:51wedlock you know in in Ireland so you
53:53know their documentaries coming out
53:55there are things so it's not as though
53:56Christendom has some sort of perfect
53:58record on this road isn't it so so so
54:01you can understand why there are people
54:03who are saying look what Christianity
54:05did are we better off without that sort
54:07of puritanical you know Victorian era
54:10sort of but are you saying that
54:12it's throwing the baby out with bath
54:14water to sort of sort of rail against
54:15that and not realize that with the good
54:18that came there were obviously going to
54:20be I suppose the things that weren't
54:22weren't good as well
54:23I think there may be only so many ways
54:25of structuring it enormously complex
54:27civilization
54:29and I think that trying to construct the
54:32sort of new atheist projects you know of
54:33trying to construct an entirely
54:35rationalist
54:37secular sort of um guided Philosophy for
54:41a society I think it's supposed to be an
54:42object failure I mean what we've learned
54:44I think in the last 20 years post new
54:46atheism is that when people don't have
54:48religion they um just turn politics into
54:51religion and it actually makes
54:53politics got worse people are less
54:56religious in the sense they just get
54:58religious about other things exactly and
54:59when I say in a more dysfunctional way
55:01and often lose the good bits of religion
55:02like Computing whatever and and
55:05um hold on to some of the more
55:06dysfunctional bits
55:08so I sort of think that if you are
55:10trying to come up with
55:13um
55:15uh philosophy or institutions or
55:17whatever which best protects people's
55:20interests
55:21you have to actually find some real
55:23examples that have really worked I don't
55:26think it I don't think it's possible to
55:27just design something on the back of an
55:29envelope and think you can impose this
55:32or people and it's going to be great I
55:33think what you have to do is actually
55:34look around at all societies that exist
55:37now and have ever existed and say they
55:39seem to do it well they seem to do it
55:41well they do it less well you know it
55:42has to be operating actually within the
55:44real lived world
55:45and
55:47you know we've never had a society that
55:49didn't have religion until in some way I
55:51think the idea that you can just lose it
55:52is for Birds
55:55um the question I think is just
55:59it's just pick your poison really and I
56:03think that
56:05I think that what we're seeing now as
56:08Christianity recedes is not
56:11a transition to you know the
56:14rushless Utopia imagined by
56:17um new atheism it's actually something
56:19much more pagan
56:21I think that in many ways what we're
56:22returning to is something that obviously
56:24you know many differences we're talking
56:26about thousands of year Gap here that's
56:28something that actually looks a lot more
56:30like
56:31Roman religion
56:34interesting with potentially some of the
56:36moral ideas that come with that
56:39I I guess my sort of
56:44question as we saw to wrap this up is
56:48you've painted to some extent a rather
56:50Bleak picture in the book of where we're
56:52at but you have some stories that seem
56:55kind of hopeful that you've kind of
56:56given some people a sense of of their
57:00own meaningfulness and that they can
57:02take control again of their decisions
57:03and that sort of thing
57:05um do you do you see hope do you see do
57:08you think we're kind of going to be
57:09living in this sort of morass of kind of
57:11materialistic views on sexuality you
57:14know pornography filth you know coming
57:16on every screen of a young person you
57:18know
57:19or or do you think the pendulum will
57:21swing people will kind of learn we can't
57:23keep living this way that we weren't
57:25designed in a sense whether you think
57:27that's biologically or spiritually to to
57:29live this way
57:31um what what do you think the future
57:32might look like it in that sense
57:35um I think there is probably a backlash
57:37already underway and partly because
57:39people keep asking me if I think there
57:40is one and given that everyone keeps
57:42talking about it all the time that sort
57:44of suggests it's happening yeah I guess
57:46something's happening maybe
57:48um and also because that is generally
57:50what you do see historically you tend to
57:52see this kind of roller coaster between
57:54periods of licentiousness and producers
57:55and whatever so it would make sense
57:57that's tend to be it tends to be how
57:59humans works you would expect that I
58:02guess the difference now is of course
58:03that our technological landscape is
58:04completely different because we have the
58:06pill and we have the internet and we
58:07have all these other things that our
58:08ancestors didn't have so that's
58:10obviously going to change things
58:11I mean
58:13the the hopeful point is that people do
58:17still have
58:18the ability to behave differently you
58:21know you can you can just not watch porn
58:24you can get married you cannot have
58:25casual sex like it's it's difficult and
58:28I think you know and I don't want to
58:30just do that crude
58:31sort of um new absolute agency you know
58:34on your way thing because we know that
58:36actually agency is severely constrained
58:38and that that everything that we're
58:41dealing with Shades of Gray and
58:42trade-offs or whatever but
58:44people can choose differently they can
58:46there is some scope for individual
58:49autonomy and people are already doing
58:52that
58:53um you know at small scale and I guess
58:55what happens
58:57you know
59:00change happens among individuals in
59:02small rooms yes and then eventually that
59:04scales
59:05and so you see sort of if we're talking
59:07about the re-enchanting of
59:10um of sex of the sexual Revolution you
59:12see that happening bottom up rather than
59:14top down
59:16I mean that's an interesting question
59:17whether it's a sort of
59:23I don't know about the socioeconomics of
59:25it I wonder if what might be happening
59:27to some extent is that the sexual
59:29counter-revolution is sort of an elite
59:31thing in the way that the sexual
59:32Revolution actually was or at least
59:33trickled down to some extent definite
59:35the HIV is that might happen again I
59:37don't know
59:38um it definitely isn't coming from
59:40business interests or whatever I mean
59:42this is definitely I think I mean this
59:43is a very cool theme in my book that I
59:45think
59:46um a lot of what's driving this is
59:47capitalism and
59:50um when people are resisting it they
59:52tend to be sort of pushing against the
59:54market
59:56um which is I think to be applauders
59:59and I think individuals
1:00:02yes individuals acting against those
1:00:04kind of um
1:00:06fast forces
1:00:08uh is to be applauded but um
1:00:12yeah I don't know it's all playful
1:00:14what's playful I am
1:00:16really intrigued actually because I do
1:00:19feel like there's a little shift and I'm
1:00:21intrigued to see where that bubbles up
1:00:22how it bubbles up how it changes things
1:00:24what pushback is to it or actually if a
1:00:26bit like you've encountered with your
1:00:27book
1:00:28um people will want to disagree with it
1:00:30more than they do actually disagree with
1:00:32it
1:00:34um but we better as much as I want to
1:00:36talk to you for hours and hours
1:00:40um thank you so much thank you so much
1:00:43for your time it's been amazing to chat
1:00:44to you yes how come it's been a really
1:00:46really interesting conversation thank
1:00:47you um if you want more from Louise do
1:00:49check out the links with today's show
1:00:51you can find her book and uh you've got
1:00:54a podcast and uh video channel as well
1:00:57where you're doing some really
1:00:58interesting interviews and things at the
1:00:59moment and I think there's another book
1:01:00on the horizon is that true that you we
1:01:03may see a sequel I'm supposed to finish
1:01:06the proposal tomorrow
1:01:10it's on its way yes it'll get you back
1:01:12maybe once it's published uh and uh so
1:01:15you can tell us about it but thank you
1:01:16so so much for being our guest today
1:01:18thank you
1:01:20[Music]

About this transcript

This page contains the full transcript of Louise Perry on re-enchanting sex, marriage and relationships by Seen & Unseen, generated from the public captions YouTube serves with the video. The transcript has 11,059 words across 1,780 segments, with the original timestamps preserved so you can click any line to jump to that moment in the embedded player.

What you can do with it

Use the transcript to take notes, quote the speaker, build a study guide, generate a summary with ChatGPT or Claude via the YouTube Summary tool, or export it as a timed subtitle file with YouTube to SRT. You can also re-open it in the transcriber to translate the transcript into 100+ languages.

Free YouTube transcript tool

YouTube2Text is a free YouTube transcript generator — no signup, no daily limit. Paste any YouTube link and get the full transcript instantly, with timestamps, click-to-jump, translation to 100+ languages, AI prompts for ChatGPT, Claude, and Gemini, and exports to TXT, SRT, VTT, or Markdown.