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Local SEO in the AI Era: What’s Working, What’s Dying & What to Do Now - Joy Hawkins & Caleb Ulku — Transcript

by Edward Sturm · 14,461 words · 2,047 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

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0:00We are here with two of the biggest
0:02people in local SEO. This is going to be
0:05such a cool episode. Both of you, I'm so
0:08grateful to have you both joining. Uh
0:11rejoining. Joy, this is your third time
0:13on. Caleb, this is your second time on
0:16and and I think you both said you've
0:18never actually met in person.
0:21>> Not to my knowledge. [laughter]
0:24>> Well, thank you so much. Let's just
0:27start meet people in person. I sort of
0:30uh hole up in my office and stay here.
0:33[snorts]
0:33>> I do that a lot. Actually, lately I've
0:35been getting recognized on the street
0:37like an off like a surprising amount. I
0:40was walking home last week at 2:30 in
0:44the morning and some guy walked by me
0:46and he's like, "Hey." And it's, you
0:47know, 2:30, so I was just like, "I'm
0:50keep on walking and and then I I keep
0:52walking." He goes, "Hey, I watch your
0:54videos." And I'm like, "What?" And
0:56there's like no one on the street except
0:57for this one guy. I had another I was
1:00going to the week before I was going to
1:02the supermarket and another and this guy
1:05is with his girlfriend and he stops and
1:06he goes he goes, "Oh my god, are you
1:08Edward Sturm?"
1:10[laughter]
1:12It's it's
1:14But yeah, I try to I I usually hold up.
1:16What's that, Kayla? I said that's never
1:19happened to me. Not yet. Has that
1:20happened to you, Joey?
1:21>> Uh it has. Uh usually it's like the
1:25places where you would expect people to
1:26recognize me. So like at the Google
1:27summits every year I've noticed uh last
1:29few years we get a lot of people from
1:31like Brazil will come up and ask for
1:33like pictures with me. I never used to
1:35get that before I started getting active
1:37on YouTube. So it's definitely a YouTube
1:39thing. Um and I think I had one person
1:42last year at Gen Con, this board game
1:43conference I go to come up and introduce
1:45themselves and you're like you're you're
1:46Joy Hawkins. That doesn't usually happen
1:49where it's just like a random person in
1:51a non-industry thing
1:53>> at the board game conference.
1:55>> Yeah. I was like, I should hire this
1:56girl. [laughter]
1:57>> Did And you did?
1:59>> No.
2:01>> That's awesome, though. Um, all right. I
2:03want to start with uh a cool question
2:05that everybody's talking about, which
2:07is, how are both of you thinking about
2:09local SEO for people using large
2:11language models to get their
2:12information?
2:15>> Caleb, we'll start with you. Yeah.
2:17>> Oh man, I was I was looking forward to
2:19Joy's response. She did all the uh
2:21research on this.
2:24Um but yeah, sure. So, um
2:30let's see. With large leg models, how do
2:32I think about local SEO? So, when we
2:34look at local SEO, we look at Google
2:36Analytics for uh real people, real users
2:39who are landing on clients websites.
2:41Typically, they don't spend very long
2:44before they decide whether or not to
2:45convert.
2:46Um, so a lot of our focus was on
2:50building up the entity relevance, the uh
2:52the entity trust, not nearly as much
2:55focused on all of the aspects that would
2:58make the user, an actual human, trust
3:01the business more because we found that
3:03the users weren't spending enough time
3:05on the website. They're not going to
3:06read the whole thing. Well, with an LLM
3:09who actually w I shouldn't say who, it's
3:12not a who. uh an LLM which will actually
3:15read most of the website uh fairly
3:18readily. Um historically we basically
3:21had four types of content that we built
3:23for local SEO. We've added a fifth type
3:26which is specifically designed to build
3:28trust with LLMs that are reading the
3:31local business's website. So things
3:34like, you know, if we had a a plumber in
3:36Gary, Indiana, we might publish an
3:39article that talks about how that
3:40plumber does pricing for a water heater
3:43replacement and all the aspects that
3:45feed into it, how one price might be
3:47different from another price and all of
3:49this. And because the LLMs seem like
3:52they favor local citations for local
3:55type queries, we found that if someone
3:58who lives in Gary asks, "Hey, how much
4:00does a water heater replacement cost?"
4:02then your plumber in Gary is more likely
4:05to be cited than like Angie's List if
4:08you have that type of content ready for
4:11citation. So that's the big adjustment
4:13that we've made just more of the content
4:15written for LLMs, not as much for
4:18humans, if that makes sense.
4:24I'm just going to be I'm just going to
4:25be a fly on the wall because I want to
4:27just see a conversation between between
4:29you two.
4:31>> Yeah. So, uh, things that we've been
4:33focusing more on, I'd say there's
4:34there's two big ones. Uh, awards are
4:37something that if you'd asked me a
4:39couple years ago, wouldn't cared about
4:40whatsoever. We are strongly pitching
4:42this to uh, lots of our clients. Um, one
4:46of the industries we work with in the
4:47law is legals. We have a lot of lawyer
4:49clients and, uh, it's kind of funny
4:51because best law firms uh, they're a
4:53site that basically uh, gives out awards
4:56to law firms, says, you know, here are
4:58the best law firms in Chicago and they
5:00list them, whatever. Uh well their
5:02activity on Google has just gone through
5:04the roof in the last year. Like if you
5:06put in their sites I think they've got
5:08multiple sites into like an AHRS tool or
5:11whatever like they are getting so much
5:12traffic. So what we were seeing is that
5:13like really niche sites that are doing
5:16awards and have like this user generated
5:18content or reviews on them are surging.
5:22the ones that are like crashing and
5:24burning are all the directory sites that
5:26were very generic uh and that don't have
5:29any type of userenerated content. And I
5:32think awards is interesting because it's
5:33not really user generated but it is
5:36different site to site right so if you
5:38win an award on one site
5:39>> that is enough difference to to make
5:42your directory do well. So, they're one
5:44that I've been paying attention to um
5:46and like getting clients listed on and
5:48it's crazy to see how many times the LLM
5:51will site, you know, awards that you've
5:53won from some of these other sites. Um
5:56the negative is that Best Law Firms has
5:59realized this and they just like tripled
6:00their prices. Uh which is nuts. So, I'm
6:03like, "Kill me now." Like, it's actually
6:05ridiculous how much they're charging.
6:07Um, so I'm now going back to like, okay,
6:09do I want like what's the [laughter]
6:11what's the minimum that you have to pay
6:13them to get the, you know, thing that
6:16you need in order for the LM to site
6:17you. But, um, that is definitely
6:20something that has changed in the last
6:22year due to like the AI local packs that
6:25we're seeing on Google, um, which are
6:27still not there consistently, but when
6:29they are, they they cite those things.
6:31This method of marketing is so
6:33effective, I had to make sure it wasn't
6:34against Google's rules before I kept
6:36using it. It's a form of SEO I call
6:39compact keywords. Whereas most SEO
6:41focuses on putting up articles to answer
6:43questions, how, what, when, compact
6:45keywords focuses on putting up dozens of
6:47pages that sell to searchers who are
6:50actually looking to buy. These pages
6:52rank on Google and convert so much
6:54better than normal that when I
6:55discovered this years ago, I couldn't
6:57believe this was allowed. It's less
6:59work, too. The average Compact Keywords
7:01landing page is only 415 words. Compact
7:04Keywords is a 13-hour deep course on
7:06getting sales with SEO. A customer said,
7:09"We spent nearly 18,000 in the last year
7:11and a half on marketing and SEO through
7:13different agencies locally, and that did
7:15nothing. We decided to take the leap on
7:17the compact keywords course. We're now
7:19getting about 6 to eight calls per day
7:21on a good day, which is just unheard
7:23of." Another customer said, "Give it to
7:26a junior employee. have them follow it
7:28exactly as Edwards laid out. You don't
7:30have to do anything and you're going to
7:32gain a six-f figureure SEO level
7:34employee just by having them go through
7:36this course. Compact Keywords is about
7:38setting up an SEO funnel that brings you
7:40sales for years and years and years. It
7:43works with AI. It's less work than
7:45traditional SEO and it makes way more
7:48money. You can get it now at
7:49compactkeywords.com.
7:51Back to the podcast. I was looking at
7:53best law firms on HRS. It is crazy. like
7:56you're saying. Um, how does So, how does
7:57it work? You pay for a citation on best
8:00law firms and then it looks like you are
8:02one of the best law firms just because
8:04you have a page on best law firms.
8:07>> Yeah. So, this is the thing that kills
8:08me. All right. So, I've been tracking
8:10like the whole self-promoting listical
8:11trend. Uh, so I've been following a lot
8:13of like what Lily Ray is seeing on that.
8:15And I I will say that if again, if you
8:18asked six months ago, I would have been
8:19sent this is like whatever. Just do
8:20whatever you need to. I am seeing sites
8:22get nailed for it. So, I'm seeing local
8:24businesses that had done too many of
8:26these get nailed, uh, you know, just
8:29constantly saying that they're the best,
8:30which is so frustrating because what is
8:32your alternative? To pay somebody else
8:34to say that you're the best, which is
8:36basically now what we're saying. And
8:38like in Google's perfect world where
8:40they just automatically know who's the
8:42best. Yeah, that doesn't that doesn't
8:43happen. Um, I understand how that's the
8:46ideal, but I just think it's so
8:48frustrating that now the option is like
8:50you got to go pay for it. So, I'm I'm
8:53sure they have scrutiny. Like, you can't
8:54just go win an award um by paying. They
8:58have like a process. But, I mean,
9:00really, it's the people that are paying.
9:03Like, let's be honest. [laughter]
9:05>> I'm I'm just like, wow, what a crazy
9:07business model for best law firms. You
9:09you like it because that can be done
9:11across any industry.
9:13>> Yeah. And I will say there there's
9:15criteria. I don't want to like I don't
9:16think they're scamming anybody in the
9:18sense that like I don't think they're
9:19you can win the award if you aren't like
9:21>> I don't know what their criteria is.
9:22>> Do you win an award or do you just have
9:24a page on their like a profile page on
9:26their site that you pay for?
9:28>> I mean you get a badge, you can put it
9:30on your site, all this stuff, but
9:31>> and it literally just looks like but it
9:33looks like you are a best law firm, a
9:36best-in-class law firm, but really you
9:39just have a profile page on best law
9:41firms.
9:42>> Yeah, it's it's I don't [snorts] know. I
9:45don't know how they get around some of
9:47the the stuff with it. Certainly not an
9:48industry I want to get into. I've
9:50thought of some people have been like,
9:51"Oh, you should start your own site."
9:52And I'm like, "I don't know." Like,
9:54that's that's kind of gray territory
9:56when you're starting to recommend all
9:57your clients and like I don't know what
9:58the FTC would have to say about that. I
10:00don't want to find out. So, not an area
10:02I want to get into, but certainly there
10:04are sites like in Canada, there's a few
10:06uh we have a lawn care client that wins
10:07them every year, but he has to pay to
10:09get the badges. So, it's like he's a
10:12good company. He deserves to win, but it
10:14has a cost, right? And now those badges,
10:16my god, he is everywhere. Like this guy
10:18just dominates everything um all over
10:21LLMs like and all over Google. And it's,
10:24you know, he's he's going to be hard to
10:26contend with because he's got so many
10:28>> a lawn care client.
10:30>> Mhm.
10:30>> What is what is this what is this client
10:32doing so well that's working so well
10:34with LLMs?
10:35>> So he he wins a lot of these awards as
10:37well. He's just been doing it for like
10:3810 years. So he wins like Consumer's
10:40Choice Award. Uh there's a company in
10:42Canada called Homestars, which is
10:44specifically a Homestars home service
10:46directory. Um and they have they're like
10:48Yelp. They have like a really big
10:50footprint here and they they do really
10:51well. So he wins their badge every year.
10:53And I think there's a third one. I can't
10:54remember what site it is, but there's a
10:56third award that he wins every year. So
10:58he's got like 10 years of winning all
10:59these awards. Uh and it's all about like
11:02the SEO part of it is always making sure
11:03that you put them on the site
11:04prominently so that the LMS can find
11:06them. So you're just winning the award
11:08alone is not enough. You have to promote
11:10it. You have to make sure it's like
11:11super easy like tell the world about it.
11:14Um
11:15>> that that's where I think marketing and
11:17SEO comes in because we take the like he
11:19wasn't anywhere before he started
11:21working with us but we took a good
11:22business that had all the stuff and made
11:24sure you know Google LLM's whatever can
11:26find it.
11:28>> So he's actually winning awards or he's
11:30getting listed on I'm trying to I'm
11:32trying to understand. I'm really
11:34confused.
11:34>> I mean go to Homestars. I don't want to
11:36speak on behalf of these sites. Go to
11:37best law firms. Go to Homestars. Go to
11:39consumer choice awards. like look up
11:40their methodology. Like I don't I don't
11:42want to misquote it cuz I've never
11:43really dug deep into it, but I will tell
11:44you all of them have fees. To get the
11:46badge, even the Better Business Bureau,
11:47to get their badge, you have to pay a
11:49fee. They do have a vetting process.
11:51They have to pay their staff. I get it.
11:53But also, I'm like, uh, like, yeah, I I
11:56have mixed feelings about it.
11:58>> I also want to know how I like I'm going
12:00to dig into this after because I want to
12:01know what Best Law Firms did to grow
12:04like this. They're they're at I think
12:06like Yeah. around 60,000 clicks a month
12:09and they've just been going up and up
12:10and up. I'm so curious what they've been
12:12doing. I don't know if you look.
12:15>> No, I think it's just the type of
12:16content Google's rewarding, right? The
12:18more niche you are uh they really do
12:21like awards. That is a pattern that
12:23we're seeing and like more than
12:25>> you know what it is because everyone's
12:27going to link to them. You get on best
12:28law firms and then you have to you put
12:30you have to put this on your site and
12:31then
12:34Yeah, reviews are an interesting one
12:36because I am starting to see that
12:37reviews were always the thing in the
12:39local pack that if you don't have
12:41reviews, you need volume, you need
12:43frequency, you need those two things. If
12:44you don't have those, you can't rank no
12:46matter what you do. Like I've seen
12:48businesses that have all the best SEO in
12:49the world, if they don't have those two
12:51things, they will not rank. That is not
12:53necessarily true with AI powered local
12:55packs. I am seeing lots of different
12:57businesses who are not the leaders when
12:59it comes to those two things. So, it is
13:02an interesting world. I I kind of like
13:03that it's not just that one single
13:05factor so heavily weighted. Um, but it's
13:09the first time where I think actually
13:10reviews have taken a hit um in
13:12importance.
13:15>> Caleb, what what are you seeing?
13:19>> Yeah. Um, so when we looked at at
13:22reviews, um, um, it's really a lot less
13:27of a focus, especially when we look at
13:29the LLMs, a lot less of a focus on the
13:31GBP specific reviews and more of a focus
13:35on diverse platforms, especially for
13:38some reason Yelp when when we're looking
13:40at the Gemini recommended businesses.
13:42Like Gemini just freaking loves Yelp.
13:45Like if you have good reviews on Yelp,
13:47like you're looking really good for
13:48Gemini. Um, and the re the LLMs are
13:53doing a much better job actually reading
13:55the reviews and matching what people are
13:57saying in reviews to what the searcher's
13:59request actually is, which is a big deal
14:02because most of the time when a business
14:05is asking for reviews, they just say,
14:06"Hey, were you happy? Can you leave a
14:08review?" And the most common review is
14:11five stars, great service or something.
14:13So for our clients, we've started
14:15coaching them to ask for more specific
14:17reviews. Obviously, Google says you
14:19can't ask for the person's name or for
14:22the actual service. So we just say like,
14:24hey, could um could you leave a review
14:27and tell about your experience and what
14:29the outcome was instead of just, hey,
14:31could you leave a review? Uh and whereas
14:34before, and I say before the Helion days
14:37of like 18 months ago, uh all of the
14:39requests were leave a GBP review, leave
14:42a GBP review, that was it. Now it's just
14:44like sometimes GBP, sometimes Yelp,
14:47sometimes Facebook, just trying to build
14:48that diversified portfolio. Yeah, cuz
14:51even like obviously ChatGpt, Claude,
14:54some of the other LLMs, this isn't a
14:56surprise that they don't just rely on
14:57GBP reviews, but it is kind of a
15:00surprise to me that Gemini doesn't just
15:02rely on GBP reviews.
15:06>> Yeah, I see Yelp everywhere in the AI
15:09local pack site citations. So like
15:11usually when there is a AI powered um
15:14local pack, it it displaces the general
15:17local pack. Um, and we see Yelp getting
15:19cited more than any other site.
15:23>> And ChatGpt, OpenAI, I guess, just
15:25signed some uh agreement with Yelp to
15:29better share data. So, I mean, I know a
15:32lot I've talked to a lot of local
15:33businesses and they often don't have
15:36amazing things to say about Yelp. Um,
15:39but regardless, uh, you know, it does
15:43seem that that's becoming a more
15:44important source for local businesses.
15:47Yeah, I think it's the same thing as
15:48Reddit. Yelp is one of the only places
15:50on the internet that has uh genuinely
15:53human content, right? So, I mean, I say
15:55that and Reddit is a cesspool, but uh
15:58historically speaking, Reddit is so
15:59strict and I mean, they are literally
16:01cracking down in the last few weeks.
16:03Like, it's insane how many accounts are
16:05getting banned. Um I moderate several
16:08subreddits and like the amount of posts
16:09where I'll go to click and the post is
16:11already gone, like Reddit already
16:12deleted it. So, they have a really
16:14really um big stance on fighting spam
16:16and fighting AI and fake content. And
16:19Yelp is in the same boat. Yelp is like
16:22they want their power users. They want
16:24people they trust. Their their systems
16:26are way harsher than Google's at
16:28detecting fake reviews and way better.
16:30Like you're very unlikely to see a fake
16:32review on Yelp. It is very hard to buy
16:35reviews on Yelp.
16:37And what's interesting about Yelp on top
16:39of that, right, is because there's such
16:41a focus on Google reviews for the past
16:44whatever couple decades, um, the not
16:48many business owners were actively
16:49seeking Yelp reviews. So if a business
16:52actually has a strong positive review
16:55profile because as we know like somebody
16:57with a negative experience is so much
16:59more likely to go and leave a negative
17:01review on every single platform they can
17:03find. So, if you have a good review
17:07portfolio on Yelp, I mean, you probably
17:11treat your customers really well because
17:13that's hard to do without constantly
17:15asking for reviews.
17:17>> The frustrating thing is it's against
17:18Yelp's terms of service to ask for
17:20reviews. I find that the stupidest thing
17:22ever. So, if they catch you, they
17:25actually have like a badge of shame.
17:26They'll give you if if it gets extreme
17:28where they think you're actually like
17:30paying or incentivizing for reviews, not
17:32only will they give you the badge of
17:33shame, they actually like uh knock your
17:35ranking. I've only ever talked to one
17:37business who had this happen, but like
17:39basically they didn't rank well in Yelp
17:41anymore because they got caught buying
17:44reviews or doing something with reviews.
17:46I don't know if they were buying them or
17:48just giving incentives for the
17:49customers. Um but we I wrote a whole
17:52piece about it on our blog and like
17:53yeah, it's they're harsh. So that's
17:55where I'm like
17:57>> I don't know.
17:59>> Even Google has started like I' I've
18:01seen it before when you leave a review
18:02on Google. They started to ask like were
18:04you incentivized to leave this review? I
18:06I can't imagine it would go well for the
18:08business if a bunch of people said yes
18:09to that question.
18:11>> Yeah, Google's a joke though. Like they
18:12they do have a badge, but it lasts for
18:1430 days and then you're fine. Like ooh,
18:16like that's hardly a penalty. Uh I wish
18:19their algorithmic penalties were like
18:20that. God, like that would be awesome.
18:22Like when I think about the difference
18:23between the two, the the local pack has
18:26the most lenience for spam. Like it's
18:29insane.
18:32>> What do you think the biggest local Oh,
18:34sorry. What were we saying?
18:36>> No, no, I was going to say more about
18:38that. That sounds interesting.
18:39>> Spam. Oh my gosh. Like, you know, they
18:41gotten better with video verification,
18:42but even listening to like Edward, one
18:44of the podcasts you had on where the guy
18:45was talking about Yeah. sounds like I
18:49>> I had words, but like there are there's
18:52a network right now um in an industry
18:54that I work in a lot which is the garage
18:56door repair space and like they are
18:58creating fake listings like crazy. I
19:00have a client where they are literally
19:01creating listings using my client's
19:03name, business name, like this is
19:05illegal to be clear and sending it
19:07somewhere else. And I've seen this in
19:09the insurance industry as well. I've
19:10seen people do it to big brands like
19:11Progressive and All State and State
19:13Farm. I'm like you're insane. But I
19:15don't know how they haven't been sued to
19:16the nines, but people do this. And there
19:19is a big network right now. It's full of
19:21like fake listings, fake reviews. Google
19:24will take them down. They just put up 10
19:26more tomorrow. Like it's actually nuts.
19:29So, I do think that uh it's been pretty
19:32good for the last couple years in the
19:33sense of like less of that, but there's
19:36obviously new loopholes that people have
19:37discovered and they're working really
19:38well right now. And it's so frustrating
19:40for real businesses. And I'll just put
19:42this out there. I'm not a fan of the
19:44rank and rent model for local search
19:45because those are literally listings
19:47that outrank my clients and so we do
19:49everything we can to get rid of them
19:50when we find them. Like they're not
19:52supposed to be there and they I I have a
19:55really I have a really hard time
19:57wrapping my brain around the model where
19:59you are um paying for a listing that is
20:01competing with you and like you're like
20:03I don't know it's it's tough.
20:10>> Yeah. No. So, and you So, it is good
20:12with So, I remember back in the 10 years
20:15ago, we used to complain about how hard
20:17it was to get GBP listings verified. And
20:20now you look back and like what was I
20:22complaining about? Um, it it does feel
20:26that
20:28I don't know how how am I trying to
20:29phrase this? Google gives such bad
20:32advice to small businesses. Uh like the
20:35biggest one that I always come comes to
20:38mind like so the video verification is
20:41challenging for like a real local
20:42business owner like if they have an
20:44actual local business they have a
20:46license they're actually located there
20:48it can be quite challenging to get video
20:51verified uh I mean without knowing the
20:54right process without knowing the right
20:55steps and all of that but I think the
20:57the biggest issue that I have is if you
21:00go to create a business listing Google
21:02says like hey do you serve customers at
21:05this address and if you say no then
21:07Google says oh well you should create a
21:09service area business and then Google
21:11penalizes you for creating a service
21:13area business but you told me to create
21:15a service area business Google why are
21:17you then penalizing it like it's so
21:20frustrating that they penalize and they
21:22make real local business owners jump
21:24through hoops but then yeah a dozen rank
21:28and rent fake listings fake yeah I I
21:30agree Joy
21:31>> yeah this is the thing you can't trust
21:33Google to uh give you the best advice
21:35when it comes to ranking, right? I mean,
21:37they'll also tell you uh this is funny.
21:39They have like technically their
21:40guidelines on hours. You're supposed to
21:42have somebody available to go out to
21:44service at that exact hour. So, like we
21:46got some details on them like what is
21:47the exact rule? So, if I say I'm open at
21:492 a.m., let's just say I have to be able
21:52to dispatch, you know, an emergency
21:54plumber at 2 a.m. technically speaking
21:56to meet Google's guidelines. Okay?
21:59Nobody does that. Okay? Literally,
22:01nobody is going to dispatch a plumber at
22:022 a.m., but lots of plumbers list
22:04themselves as open 24/7 because they do
22:06have people answering the phones at 2
22:08a.m., but technically that's not within
22:10Google's guidelines. Do you think Google
22:11can enforce that?
22:14>> Like, no. So, there's lots of things
22:17where they'll tell you, don't list
22:18yourself as 2 a.m., uh, but by the way,
22:20we also won't enforce this. Can't really
22:22enforce this, but you should listen to
22:24us.
22:25>> And then if you mark yourself as closed,
22:27you don't rank in the top three and you
22:29don't get the call. Exactly.
22:30>> So, what would you rather do?
22:31>> Yeah, I know. Like, you got to pick and
22:33choose because I'm always like when it
22:34comes to following Google's guidance,
22:36it's all about risk versus reward. And I
22:38think there's a lot of guidelines that
22:39they have on the organic side with
22:41traditional SEO where there are serious
22:42risks. And so, you ignore their
22:45guidelines, they will screw you, like if
22:47you get caught. So, I think that's
22:50definitely true. That's less true for
22:51Google business profiles. It's always
22:53been um probably great to be a spammer
22:55to be honest because they're pretty
22:57lenient and not the model I want to do,
22:59but I see that they win pretty easily.
23:02If you're fine with constantly creating
23:04new stuff and having your stuff taken
23:05down that that rat race chase, then like
23:08it can really work. But they have not
23:10made a ton of progress um on fake
23:13reviews um based on what I think they're
23:15capable of.
23:18>> I'm at least happy that they stopped
23:20letting competitors move your location
23:21pin. Yeah, that was that was a
23:23revelation when they stop that.
23:25>> Yeah, there's a lot they need to improve
23:27on, but like it's a it's a matter of
23:29like it's a business thing, right? They
23:30have to have they have to pay people and
23:32resources. So, it's like how does this
23:35make them money? When I think about fake
23:37reviews, how does removing fake reviews
23:39make Google money?
23:43>> What what loopholes with Google business
23:45profile are working just exceptionally
23:47well right now that you don't think will
23:49be working by the end of 2027?
23:52Oh man, I have to think about that one.
23:54Loopholes. So the hours thing um I think
23:58has worked a little less than it used to
24:00because everybody's doing it. So So for
24:03example, if you're the only insurance
24:05company that lists yourselves as open 24
24:07hours, then you definitely have a huge
24:09boost because you will rank all the time
24:11when your competitors are closed and you
24:13have that preference. I think as more
24:14people have adapted their hours
24:17strategy, it's been less effective. Um,
24:19the other one that I I might and I put
24:22might this a big asterisk might work
24:24less is keyword stuffing your business
24:27name has always been like a massive
24:29>> say that yes that is so frustrating to
24:31me like why does that work?
24:33>> It's been working for 20 years. Like
24:34literally as long as I've been in the
24:36industry, it has worked. This is how I
24:37actually got started. Before there were
24:38even guidelines, I just used to throw
24:40every keyword possible in my client's
24:42business names and they would rank the
24:43next day. And this was like way before
24:45there was guidelines. So, and there was
24:47no penalties or no suspensions back
24:48then, like it was a, you know, brand new
24:50world. Um, but that's always worked. But
24:54what I'm noticing with some of the LLM
24:57listings, like the people that the AI
24:58overviews put in instead of the the
25:01three-pack, they're not the keyword-rich
25:04businesses. So, I am wondering with the
25:07LLM world if that is going to matter
25:09less. I don't know. I don't have hard
25:11data on it yet, but I'm just for some of
25:13the really competitive markets,
25:15especially for personal injury lawyers,
25:16where everyone's doing it, and all of a
25:18sudden the LLMs are showing different
25:20law firms, like ones that are not doing
25:22the whole keyword-rich business names.
25:24I'm like, "Oh, this is interesting." So,
25:26that could be a trend that could die if
25:28if AI local packs actually roll out,
25:30which they're still at like 10% of the
25:32search results in the United States, so
25:35they've not rolled out. Like, it's not
25:36everywhere. So, it's a big if.
25:44Hey, that's an adorable dog.
25:47Look at us.
25:49>> He is. Thank you. What's what's the
25:51biggest local SEO opportunity that most
25:54businesses are missing right now
25:58where like I mean you guys interact with
26:00so both of you interact with so many
26:02local businesses all the time and
26:03there's probably a consistent thing that
26:06you see a lot of them just not doing
26:08that it's like the first thing that you
26:10that you implement.
26:12>> So I have two that are kind of neither
26:13of them would probably be classified as
26:15local SEO but they both really really
26:17matter. Uh, one is, uh, one thing that
26:19AI has done for us is make it super easy
26:23to update like the layout of your site.
26:26So, you can literally redo your entire
26:28homepage with Claude in under an hour.
26:30Like, if for me to do a facelift on a
26:32website uh, 5 years ago would have taken
26:34a lot of time and a lot of resources,
26:36more than most small businesses are
26:38willing to spend. But we've done this on
26:40lots of clients uh where we have like
26:42literally just changed their homepage,
26:44maybe not even the home the entire site
26:46and made it like way better from a
26:48conversion standpoint. So like make it
26:50pretty cuz most small business sites
26:51look like they were built in the '9s and
26:53they're they're ugly. Um so make it
26:56pretty, make it actually convert better.
26:57And what it's done to their conversion
26:59rates is quite outstanding. Like
27:02especially with ads where you can really
27:03measure the actual dollar amount, like
27:04it's wild. Um, so we did this for an
27:07electrician and I like their I think
27:09their return on ad spend like tripled.
27:11Like it was crazy the the return that
27:13they got within a short time frame. Um,
27:16so I'd say that's something that I think
27:17a lot of businesses are sleeping on
27:19because the barrier to that is not what
27:20it used to be. And then ads is another
27:23big one. Like I've never pushed ads so
27:25much in my life as I have in the last
27:27year because the search results on in
27:29local have strongly shifted towards
27:32paytoplay which is where I'm not sure
27:35how AI is going to fit into that because
27:37there's no ads in any of the AI features
27:39yet um that I've seen for any local SERs
27:41but provided the AI is not there. Um the
27:44features that the ads get they're huge
27:47they're noticeable they are like doing
27:49really well performance-wise. So, we've
27:51been like doing lots of testing on like
27:53the huge image carousels that Google has
27:55been um putting in there. Another thing
27:57where it's like businesses typically
27:58have terrible images. Well, guess what?
28:00Now we have AI. You can make their
28:01terrible images look good. So, I've made
28:04some of my cranky lawyer clients
28:05actually smile. And I'm like, imagine
28:07like that actually helps their ads
28:08perform better than when they're
28:10smiling. Like, but they never smile. So,
28:12that's an area where I think AI can
28:15really help. um like looking at some of
28:18those those five.
28:19>> So it looks so so you have a real image
28:21and all you do is you change it to a
28:22smile because
28:23>> Yeah.
28:24>> But it's and so it still looks like a
28:25real image because all you're really
28:26changing is one small part of it.
28:28>> 100%. Like you can make you can just do
28:31like little touch-ups. Again that would
28:32have taken hours with Photoshop, you
28:34know, years ago. Um you can easily do it
28:38like very fast and quickly and
28:39efficiently. And I mean people do it
28:41with my face all the time in our YouTube
28:43videos. Drives me nuts. Like I can tell
28:44you I half those faces I did not make in
28:46real life. So yeah,
28:48>> I was looking at your thumbnails the
28:50other day.
28:52>> But I do I do the same thing. I do the
28:53same thing. So I I've met people say,
28:55"Edward, why do you make the most
28:57cringed thumbnails ever?" They get
28:59>> That's what that's what works.
29:00>> They get clicks. Yeah. [laughter]
29:01Exactly.
29:02>> It's true for for photos and Google ads,
29:04too. I'll tell you. Like you got to do
29:05what gets clicked.
29:07>> A lot of people are wondering like how
29:10do they how do I use a AI content on my
29:13site? like how do I do AI images? How do
29:15I and and so you're I guess like a good
29:18question was like with those landing
29:20pages, what was the before and after
29:21like why was it so bad before? Why was
29:24it so good after? Yeah, just placement
29:26of the buttons, like making sure that
29:28the buttons are big, that the colors are
29:30are different, and um like it's it's
29:33wild how ugly a lot of sites look, but
29:36like literally just making buttons
29:38bigger, better colors, making coupons uh
29:41coupons shockingly work well, especially
29:43in like home services. So, making the
29:45coupon front and center. So, like
29:47nothing really new. This is all stuff
29:50that like has always been true, but it's
29:51been difficult to do for small
29:53businesses due to budget restraints.
29:54they usually don't want to redesign
29:56their whole site and they don't want to
29:58spend another 10 grand or whatever it
29:59costs to get a decent company to do it.
30:02Um, and this is something that you can
30:03do really easily. We're not doing web
30:05design projects. We're just doing it as
30:07a part of like their SEO retainer.
30:09>> It's just for the homepage.
30:11>> That's what we've been starting with.
30:12Um, because it's easy. Uh, again,
30:15doesn't it doesn't involve rebuilding
30:17the entire theme. Um, so you can again
30:20Claude can write you a whole new like
30:23page and it's code but it you can
30:25literally put it in and it'll look how
30:27you want it to look.
30:30>> So Claude is very good at HTML. Yeah.
30:32>> Mhm.
30:34>> So if it's WordPress, you'll just copy
30:35the code and and just like paste it in.
30:38So it's you're not actually Okay, that
30:39makes sense.
30:40>> Yeah. You're not rebuilding the entire
30:41theme. So like the the obviously the con
30:44to that is you just made the thing way
30:46harder to edit in the future. um you
30:48know, for somebody that likes a visual
30:50editor and um that's that's the
30:52negative. So, I'm trying to weigh the
30:53pros and cons right now. We're doing a
30:54lot of tests on this because it just
30:56worked so well for ads. Now, we're
30:58looking and we're trying this on like
31:00clients who don't have ads and we're
31:01like, "Okay, how much does this improve
31:02their conversion rate on their Google
31:04business profile? I'm hoping to have
31:06results from some of those tests in a
31:07few months, but um I expect that it's
31:09going to have pretty dramatic impacts on
31:11their conversion rates there as well as
31:14the ads
31:16>> from from an editing standpoint. Like
31:18literally, you can just take the HTML,
31:20give it to Claude, and then tell Claude
31:21what you want to edit, and then it gives
31:23you new HTML to paste in. So,
31:26>> I mean, yes, you don't have the visual
31:27editor, but it's still not a giant
31:29barrier.
31:30>> Exactly. This is what I'm saying. Like,
31:31it's it's not what it used to be. This
31:33is where I'm like AI is is great.
31:37>> Caleb, are you doing what to what level
31:39are you doing AI content?
31:44>> So, I can't remember the last time we
31:46posted human written content on a
31:48client's website
31:53>> like I mean I don't you know the AI
31:56written content, right? So, we started
32:00and I'm I'm sure you you you guys saw
32:02this also in May when Google started
32:04mass indexing all this AI slop. This was
32:06fabulous news. Like really excited about
32:08this. Um because right we I somebody
32:13asked me something like hey you know I'm
32:15going to my competitor's websites. I'm
32:16grabbing all their content. I'm giving
32:18it to ChatGpt and saying write this
32:21rewrite this content for me and it's not
32:23working. I mean of course it's not
32:25working. That shouldn't work. And we
32:27should be happy that that doesn't work
32:28unlike keyword stuffing your business
32:30name which actually does still work. But
32:33so using AI to write content what what I
32:37have seen in my experience would love to
32:38hear your thoughts on it Joy. But what I
32:40have seen that works is if we produce
32:44content that is different uh has more
32:46information that the other ranking sites
32:49don't have on there. So when we use AI,
32:53we can do just an insane amount of
32:55research that we just wouldn't be able
32:58to do uh with a human copywriter. So, we
33:01can pull Reddit data, we can pull US
33:04Census Bureau data, we can pull uh
33:06Facebook form information, and we can
33:08figure out what are people actually
33:10asking about in this micro neighborhood,
33:14micro area about this actual service.
33:18And then we can write content that
33:20addresses what people are actually
33:22asking about, what the demographics of
33:24that specific neighborhood are with the
33:26Census Bureau data. uh if we have search
33:29console data, we can see what attributes
33:31is Google indexing this website for in
33:35this specific area. We can work those
33:37attributes into the content. Like all of
33:39these things we could do without AI, but
33:43not legitimately at scale. Like so when
33:46we write AI content, we'll often I'll
33:49often start with one of my human
33:50copywriters and I'll just say, you know,
33:52write this article for me. uh write it
33:55as well as you can, take five hours,
33:57like make it as good as you possibly
33:59can, and then we'll use that to build
34:02the prompting sequence to try to get AI
34:05to be able to write something close to
34:07that level of quality, but in a series
34:10of prompts instead of 4 hours of
34:12somebody's time.
34:15>> So, we do it a little differently. We
34:17used to handwrite L content like years
34:19ago. So, we certainly don't do that
34:21anymore. We interview our clients, get
34:23it in a transcript, and then we feed
34:25that to a tool that I had my colleague
34:27Noah Learner build um that you built on
34:30Claude, but it uses what the client said
34:32and it summarizes that and puts it all
34:34into like a good format. Um, what I've
34:37found uh over the last two years is that
34:40content that your competitors have is
34:42the worst usual way to go about content
34:45because if Google already has it and
34:46they have 5,000 copies of it and you
34:48give them copy number 501, your copy is
34:52going to sometimes index, sometimes not,
34:54but it's not going to perform well. So,
34:56um, we've been really heavily, um,
34:59pushing like stories, uh, you know, like
35:01give me a client experience. Give me
35:03what happened in this case. Tell me all
35:04the details. The more details the
35:06better. The more specific the better.
35:08Like, if you're doing a home um,
35:09remodel, like tell me what type of
35:11bathtub it was, like tell me the
35:13dimensions, tell me the cost, tell me
35:14the time, tell me everything. Um, the
35:16more numbers and details you can get,
35:18the better. Um but we are like we we
35:22used to use chat GBT to summarize
35:24transcripts and the tool that we use now
35:26um that we built is so much better. Chat
35:29it it outperformed chat GBT like crazy.
35:32Um so I do think it's one of those
35:33things that like the more detailed and
35:35the more information the better. Um but
35:38it certainly isn't like sit sitting down
35:40and writing as a human anymore. Um, so I
35:43agree with you there, but I I don't use
35:45AI to um like completely write from
35:48scratch. It always has to first come
35:50from like something somebody said.
35:52>> Yeah. And no, completely completely
35:55agree. Like that's the the big focus
35:56that we're doing now is building an
35:59interview tool uh for clients that will
36:02basically ask that cuz you know well
36:04obviously we would send clients
36:06onboarding forms and they would fill out
36:07the onboarding form and you know you
36:09send a client a 20page on onboarding
36:11form and you get like 500 words back cuz
36:14they just don't want to type it all out.
36:16But if you can get them on the phone and
36:18have a conversation with them, you can
36:19pull out so many more details, so much
36:21more nuance. And yeah, 100% that client
36:24conversation is one of the many data
36:27sources that we feed the AI on the
36:30research phase. Yeah, 100% agree.
36:35>> Yeah. The thing that we're seeing,
36:37>> go sorry.
36:38>> I was going to say the the word that I'm
36:40the caution that I'll give people that
36:41I'm seeing a lot of is like scaling
36:44using AI. So you have a pattern that
36:47works and so then you create 50 to 100
36:49pages on that same pattern. That's a
36:52death trap. Don't do that.
36:54Yeah.
36:56We'll typically limit it to like 10 to
36:5815 pages a month just because more like
37:01more content is not a competitive
37:04advantage in a world where right you can
37:07connect claude to WordPress and have a
37:09100,000 pages overnight if that's what
37:11you wanted.
37:15for for unique content for a
37:17multilocation company. How much website
37:19content needs to be unique between
37:21locations?
37:25>> Why would it not be all of it? I mean,
37:27why why are you repeating content with
37:29AI able to write unique content?
37:31>> Oo, okay. So, I I would I would vote for
37:34not having unique content because it
37:36doesn't matter. um like if you're a
37:39multilocation pest control business,
37:40let's say for example, you're going to
37:42want all of your location pages to
37:43mention what types of bugs you deal
37:45with, right? So trying to reward that
37:48500 times, what would end up happening
37:50is you'll actually end up getting rid of
37:53um all the semantic relevance because
37:54you'll be rewarding things to the point
37:56where Google doesn't actually understand
37:57it. So, we did some testing around this
37:59where we actually made them the same
38:01that we took [clears throat] pages that
38:02were literally rewritten for that
38:04reason, made them the same, and they
38:05performed better um because we kept the
38:07the words the same. The thing you don't
38:10want is you don't want um like it's
38:12different for locations where Google has
38:14foot traffic and address, reviews,
38:16photos, etc. There's enough that's
38:18different. And I think Google can tell
38:19the difference between a location page
38:22and a service area page. Service area
38:25pages are becoming more of a liability
38:29these days the more that you have. Um
38:31because I am starting to finally see
38:33Lily Ray said that she's been seeing
38:34sites get nailed for this for a couple
38:36years. I have not. I have this year
38:40>> or like citygate pages type content.
38:42>> Yep. I've seen some completely agree on
38:44that. Quite a few. I think about 25% of
38:46the the the businesses that we are
38:48getting lately for that are coming to us
38:50with um for audits are getting hit by
38:52some type of core update in the last
38:54year.
38:56>> Yeah. Which is consistent, right? Like
38:58last summer, Google rolled out the
39:00update and they basically came out and
39:01said citygate pages are spam. You
39:03shouldn't be doing them. Uh but yeah, so
39:06when we have a multilocation business
39:08and uh we we we have a concept we call
39:10it the core 30 where basically we build
39:12a page for every category and every
39:15service that's on the GBP and then we
39:17link them together that matches the same
39:19structure that the GBP has. We'll build
39:21that structure for every single location
39:23that they have. We'll just make the
39:25content unique to that location, right?
39:29So, you know, even if there's two
39:31locations in Chicago, one near the
39:33Willis Tower and one near, you know,
39:35Wrigley Field, Wrigleyville, we'll write
39:38them in such a way like why is this
39:39service different near the Willis Tower
39:42versus why is this different in
39:44Wrigleyville, so that it is hitting
39:46those local aspects of it. It's
39:49different, but unique to those areas.
39:53>> So, I have I have a unique take on what
39:55to do when you have multiple locations
39:57in the same city. I actually don't think
39:58you should have different location
40:00pages, which I've had to fight with a
40:02lot of big brands on this because
40:03they're like, "What? That's crazy." I'm
40:04like, "No, you're literally competing
40:05them all." So, let's say you are State
40:08Farm Insurance and you have 60 State
40:10Farm agents in Chicago. The two terms
40:12that you're going to be really caring
40:14about are State Farm Chicago and State
40:15Farm auto insurance, let's say, for
40:17example. Um, every single agent um will
40:20have exactly the same page. They're all
40:22competing for those exact same terms.
40:24People don't search neighborhoods, not
40:25for a lot of things. They do for certain
40:27categories, but for a lot of the service
40:29based businesses, they don't. So, you're
40:31all competing and what you end up is
40:33like one winner. Most of them get
40:35filtered out um maybe two winners
40:37depending on the search result, but I
40:39remember I used to track like the SERs
40:40for like State Farm and All State back
40:42when I used to work a lot with insurance
40:44agents um at my old agency and like it
40:47was wild to see how many of them
40:48actually got to rank and how many of
40:50them didn't.
40:51So what we what we tried a couple years
40:54ago with one of our clients was actually
40:55combining them all into one page. So
40:57having one Chicago page where it lists
40:59all your locations in Chicago, that page
41:01ranked way better um organically and
41:03there was no negative impact at all to
41:05their local back rankings.
41:09[snorts]
41:09>> Yeah. Interesting.
41:12>> You're always doing a lot of awesome
41:13tests. when the first time you came in
41:15the show, you were talking about uh you
41:17were doing a bunch of tests with press
41:18releases
41:19>> and [clears throat] do actually do you
41:21remember the results from that
41:23>> advice on that has changed in the last
41:25year too. It's actually that's one of
41:26the things I was talking um to a few
41:28different SEOs about this recently cuz I
41:30was like are you guys seeing press
41:32releases not work as well? And I I kind
41:33of predicted that this was going to
41:34happen. I don't know if I said it on
41:36your show but like like these are way
41:38too easy. Like there's no way this is
41:39going to work this well forever. I told
41:40my staff that in a meeting. I'm like
41:42this is stupid. like especially how well
41:44they influenced LLMs. We would like put
41:46send out a press release and like within
41:48a week all of a sudden like things in
41:49the press release would be getting
41:50quoted in the LMS and like you know you
41:53could send out a press release saying
41:55Edward Storm's the best uh SEO on the
41:57planet and I could get that cited on
41:59Google you know and you'd rank for that.
42:01That doesn't work anymore. Like as of
42:03the last like 6 months I'd have to say
42:05like press releases have gone downhill
42:07quite a bit. Um, and I don't I can't
42:10pinpoint when something like I don't
42:12know which core update it it um happened
42:15with, but like definitely not seeing the
42:17results I saw last year. And I'm not
42:19surprised at all.
42:21>> Yeah. I mean, similar to the hours that
42:23we talked about before, right? When
42:25everyone starts doing it, it starts to
42:26become less impactful.
42:28>> Yeah. And I don't know if everybody
42:29started doing it. I think it's more like
42:31Google's hitting the networks. That's my
42:33current theory. Like I think that Google
42:35realizes that these networks, the sites
42:37and places that they're posted are just
42:40marketing companies and they're not
42:41really great content. So that's what I
42:43believe is happening. Um, but I haven't
42:46looked into it enough to know. Like you
42:47could tell I could do a deep dive into
42:50like all the sites to see if they're
42:51getting uh slammed. But uh definitely
42:54that that has changed quite a bit in the
42:55last year since I came on Edward because
42:56I think when we came on we were we were
42:58like, "Holy crap, this is working way
42:59better than we anticipated. I didn't
43:01expect this." It was like kind of
43:02surprising.
43:03>> [laughter]
43:04>> And I'm not surprised it didn't last,
43:05but yeah, it's definitely not what it
43:07was a year ago.
43:08>> Yeah. And the last time you were on the
43:09show, you you said that exact match
43:11anchor text is getting hit and it's just
43:13like it it Google's way less lenient now
43:16with exact match anchor text. I don't
43:17know if that's still the case.
43:19>> 100%. Yeah, they are ridiculously
43:21strict. Um it to the point where I'm
43:23like I think somebody laughed at me and
43:25in the comments of your video because I
43:27was like, we don't even do I I don't
43:29suggest going after like more than five.
43:32Like I don't know what the threshold is
43:33or the limit is. I just it keeps getting
43:35lower and lower and I can't I can't like
43:38sleep knowing that like something I did
43:40caused a penalty. So [laughter] like I
43:42just I don't know. There's so many other
43:44things you can do that don't have that
43:46risk attached to it that I'm of the in
43:48the camp that's like just do those
43:49things. Like you don't have to do link
43:51building at especially at scale. It's
43:54becoming such a liability.
43:58Actually, I wanted to ask both of you
44:00for your favorite link building tactics.
44:02Like what? Yeah. You know what? What's
44:04not working anymore? What are businesses
44:06wasting time on? And then and then what
44:08should they be doing?
44:13So for local businesses, link building,
44:15the biggest thing that we've seen work
44:17really well is to find like local
44:22organizations that need support and then
44:25support them like uh youth sports
44:27leagues, uh charities, events that are
44:30looking for sponsorships. They're
44:32usually a few hundred bucks. You get a
44:33link back to your business website
44:36thanking you. Maybe you get a plaque in
44:38your waiting room or something like
44:39that. Those work really well to build
44:41local authority for local businesses.
44:45>> So, I would have to say uh what I said
44:47earlier, award sites, right? Like every
44:49local uh place usually has them. So, you
44:51know, you want to be the best and you
44:54want to be on the best of Chicago lists.
44:55You want to be on all those sites. If
44:56you're in Chicago, you want to be in the
44:57best of Illinois lists if there's, you
44:59know, or if if you're a lawyer, you want
45:01to be on best law firms. Just maybe
45:02don't pay $15,000 a year. So, it's like
45:06trying to get on all of those. Uh, and
45:08there's lots of them out there. That's
45:10probably the number one that I would say
45:11right now. And the one that I would
45:13completely not do at all if you're still
45:16doing it is guest posting, which there
45:18are still a lot of SEO agencies that are
45:19doing this, but oh my god, those sites
45:21just continue to get nailed.
45:24>> Yeah. And those those links, Joy, those
45:27are do follows.
45:29>> Mhm. You're talking about the award
45:30links or the guest posts?
45:32>> The award links,
45:33>> I believe. So, um I don't even think it
45:35matters though. Again, like for a lot of
45:37what we're seeing them um get used for,
45:40again, it's like you get the award, then
45:41you want to blast it out that you got
45:42the award. Like, put it everywhere. And
45:44like that associates your brand with all
45:46the words like, oh, you know, you're the
45:48best. You're you're the the one to go
45:50for. That's what you're going for. I
45:52think it matters a lot more than the
45:54links. So, it's a little different than
45:55our traditional way of like looking at
45:57the link, seeing if it's followed,
45:58seeing if there's anchor text, which all
46:00for the record still work. It's just the
46:02moment you start overdoing it, um, it's
46:04now a negative signal, not a positive
46:06signal.
46:07>> What level are is link building even
46:10like overdone for local businesses? I
46:12had, uh, Jake Hundley on the podcast the
46:14first time. He's been on many times now,
46:16but the first time he was on, he's like
46:17he's like, "We don't even build links
46:19for for our clients and our clients are
46:21ranking for their target terms." He's
46:23like, "All we do is submit them to
46:24Google Search Console." I'm like,
46:26"Really? That like that's it?" He's
46:27like, "That's it." Oh, in lawn care you
46:29don't you don't need So I will say it
46:31varies based on the industry. If you're
46:32a lawyer, you you you have to have
46:34links, but I think uh like the the
46:37latest site I looked at that got hit
46:39with the June core update. Um they
46:43weren't getting a stupid amount. Like I
46:44think their SEO agency wasn't even
46:46building more than like five a month.
46:48Like they weren't getting a high high
46:49volume. Um and so it's it's hard to say
46:53that the exact number because it keeps
46:54lowering. like I think what you used to
46:56be able to get away with years ago. Um
46:58it's hard to put a number on it, but uh
47:01I wouldn't do any type of regular um
47:04link building, especially if it's like
47:07uh guest posting sites is is the number
47:09one that um I wouldn't do at all
47:11anymore.
47:13>> Yeah. You know what I bet it is? I bet
47:16like it's it it it's all relative to
47:20like to the just the amount of like
47:23links that are natural for any website
47:25and that's going to change with time
47:27especially especially that like less
47:30people have niche blogs now more people
47:32have Instagrams and YouTubes so so if if
47:37someone is is building links like it's
47:4010 years ago that's going to seem
47:42unnatural relative to how any other
47:45website receives natural backlinks.
47:49And it's it's it's likely that that
47:52websites require as many links as they
47:55used to.
47:56>> And I think that like Google's just
47:58gotten smarter also at knowing what
47:59types of sites like are what. So like a
48:01lot of these guest posting sites, like I
48:03look at them and I'm like just look at
48:04the sites they're linking to. They're
48:06like casinos and like you know drugs and
48:09things. like there's no way that uh you
48:12as a a you know home service business
48:14should be listed on this site. Like it's
48:16[laughter] not it's not a good site. But
48:18these are the the the biggest reason why
48:19SEO companies do these is because you
48:21can sell them at scale, right? You can
48:23you can get somebody five links a month
48:25when you just post them on these sites
48:27that exist for SEO purposes and it'll
48:29work like magic at first. That's the
48:32other reason why people do it because my
48:34goodness, you get a bunch of like
48:35anchored like links or even if they're
48:37not anchored, you get like a whole bunch
48:38of them, you will skyrocket and the
48:40highs are wonderful. It's just a like
48:43cliff effect. It's not something I would
48:45suggest.
48:48How often do you do both of you have uh
48:51people come to you and and they're like
48:53um they want to work with you because
48:55they were getting a ton of organic
48:57traffic before and things just have
49:00slowly gotten worse and worse and worse.
49:05>> I mean that's most sites, right? I I
49:07would say almost every site's organic
49:09traffic is down compared to years ago.
49:11there's like any type offormational um
49:14blogs, things like that, like they're
49:16they're not getting the traffic that
49:18they were getting two years ago.
49:20>> So, when when these clients come to you,
49:23what what are the first things that you
49:24look at?
49:27>> Yeah. So, I'm a big fan of the way that
49:29you, you know, approach keywords like uh
49:31going afterformational keywords is way
49:32harder than it used to be. So, we
49:34definitely see that. I think um like the
49:37devil's in the details. So, you know, if
49:40you I I I work with I work on a lot of
49:42lawyer accounts, so it's I keep coming
49:43back to lawyer examples, but I can't get
49:45over like how many specific keywords and
49:48things people search on like their
49:50injuries. Like, it's actually wild how
49:52many different surgeries there are. Let
49:53me tell you, I'm like terrified to drive
49:54after working on all these uh personal
49:57injury sites because it's like the
49:59number of things that can happen to you,
50:01the number of bones that can break, the
50:02number the number of muscle sprains that
50:04I didn't even know was like a thing.
50:05like um but all those details people
50:08search right so it's like well I have a
50:11case with this this this and this or I
50:14got hit by you know a car and this this
50:15this and this happened and um those
50:18types of content do really well. So,
50:22it's just a matter of making sure that
50:23like the content that you are putting
50:24out there um is actually one that you
50:28stand a shot of ranking for doesn't have
50:30a million copies of the like it's hard.
50:32The formula is hard. I don't think it's
50:34easy. Like you can't just go um open up
50:36a keyword tool, type in personal injury
50:39lawyer and expect that you're going to
50:40get any good ideas cuz you will not. So,
50:42I do think that like coming up with a
50:44content plan is harder than it used to
50:46be. And I would say as an SEO, we get
50:48more confident with it the more we work
50:50with a particular industry. So that is a
50:53huge plus. If you're working on a single
50:55site, you only have your site to look at
50:57and then the tools online. But if you
50:59have like hundreds of websites or
51:02thousands of websites, that's a much
51:05better data set um to make better
51:08decisions when it comes to like what to
51:09write about.
51:11>> We usually start by looking at the local
51:13rank map. like what what does their
51:14local rank map look like and we use that
51:17as a guide for what do they need to
51:19build that local relevance topical
51:21relevance the worst case scenario and
51:24this is generally you know Joey you keep
51:27mentioning attorneys generally we only
51:29see this with attorneys where they'll
51:31come to us and they'll have like 800
51:34pages indexed by Google and they'll be
51:36ranked 20 plus in their lobby for their
51:39primary category um that is usually a
51:42sign that Google just hates their
51:44website that it's full of issues, spam
51:48for lack of a better word. So, for a
51:50client like that, we'll usually uh burn
51:53a lot of it down and and try to start
51:56over and and rebuild. Uh you know, audit
51:58what they have, remove things,
52:00especially if Google is calling it crawl
52:02not indexed. Uh those get deleted, uh
52:05removed. uh we try to repurpose existing
52:08content, merge, prune, try to build
52:11something like the core 30 structure and
52:13then build supporting content for
52:16topical relevance on specific topics
52:17that they're trying to rank for. Um a
52:20lot of you know what Joy was talking
52:23about finding those right topics. You
52:25know, 3 years ago it was super easy. You
52:28could just use all the people also ask
52:30questions on Google and you'd be you'd
52:31be set. That's all you ever had to worry
52:33about. uh that doesn't work anymore the
52:37same way. So we have to be a lot more
52:39diligent at trying to find like what are
52:41those attributes? What are specifically
52:43people searching for? Uh, one of our
52:46favorite sources for established
52:49websites is the search console because
52:52we can get an idea of, you know, what,
52:55you know, I I don't care if their rank
52:56position is 50 or 80, but I want to see
52:59like, hey, what attributes is Google
53:01already indexing this URL, this website
53:04for, and then we can write more content
53:07about those attributes, what makes those
53:09interesting, different, etc. But yeah,
53:11it's it is more complex than it than it
53:14than it was. Um, yeah, back when all you
53:18had to do was write content answering
53:20all the people also ask questions and
53:22you were golden. You're going to rank on
53:23top.
53:26Yeah, I have a lot of people coming to
53:27me too with this issue, which is why I
53:29asked you like um in fact I make a lot
53:32of money from people just like paying
53:35for my uh the the calendar that I have
53:38on my site and and and it's a lot of a
53:41lot of it is people who were doing
53:43really well and they were doing really
53:45well 5 years ago and things have just
53:49slowly gone down and down and down. And
53:51one of the most common things that I see
53:52is if you look at like if you look at
53:55their organic traffic graph, it looks a
53:57lot like maybe WP Beginner or it'll look
54:00a lot like HubSpot. And it it's either
54:03it's like they are they've expanded way
54:07outside their topical authority or uh
54:10they have just completely missed search
54:14intent as Google's figured out what
54:17searchers are looking for more. don't
54:20like they had like these crazy
54:22skyscraper technique articles with a ton
54:24of fluff and like searchers don't want
54:28that and searchers are coming to these
54:30pages and then they're they're like this
54:32isn't what I want and and then when they
54:34finally get their answer on the pages
54:35it's like a thin answer and they go back
54:37to the results and like these techniques
54:39used to work really well I think a lot
54:42of it is like techniques that work that
54:44worked really well a couple years ago
54:47that shouldn't have worked
54:49like these techniques shouldn't have
54:51worked. Searchers didn't want it, but it
54:53was working and people people went hard
54:56with it.
54:57>> And like that's something. Yeah, I see
54:58that. I see that all the time. We were
55:00talking about that earlier on in the
55:02podcast with these like loopholes that
55:04people are doing and then they're and
55:06then they're going to come to you guys
55:07saying like they're going to come to you
55:09guys in in in a year and a half because
55:11like things have completely fallen off a
55:13cliff with their local businesses cuz
55:15they were going way too hard with these
55:16loopholes when they should have been
55:18doing like the white hat optimizations.
55:22It's funny, Joy, you talked about
55:24optimizing the GBP landing page, and
55:26that's obviously one of the first things
55:27we look at with a business, and you
55:30know, the first content uh that a local
55:34business has on their GBP landing page,
55:36like 80% of the time, it's a short
55:39history lesson on their own business,
55:41when it was founded, where their
55:43grandfather came from. And it's just
55:46like look, when somebody is typing
55:48plumber Houston into Google, they're not
55:50typing that in because they're
55:52interested in the history of local
55:54plumbers, right? So it has to be
55:57matching searcher intent. You need to
55:58talk about what makes, you know, your
56:00USP, why you, why now, what what makes
56:03you the plumber to call. And it's not
56:05because you have a hundredyear history
56:07and your grandfather was a pipe fitter
56:09in Italy or something like that, right?
56:11Uh but yeah like that type of content
56:13used to work like it used to build trust
56:15but like it just yeah don't start with a
56:18history lesson.
56:19>> The question is did it did it even like
56:20is it that it worked or was it that just
56:22like it it worked but like was it even
56:25ideal when it was working and I would
56:27even say that it wasn't ideal because
56:28that's not going to match search intent
56:30like to your point.
56:32>> Yeah. What actually um yeah, with Google
56:34Business Profile, what are the most
56:36lowhanging fruit optimizations that
56:38people should be making?
56:42>> Well, to to kind of add on to what Caleb
56:44is saying, like you're whatever page you
56:46send um people to your GBP landing page,
56:49like the Google business profile links
56:51to that page, you need to make sure that
56:53page has everything relevant that you
56:56want to rank for. Um and that's often
56:58something that a lot of people don't
56:59have. like they'll have a couple of
57:01their services listed, but they don't
57:02list them all. And then, you know, each
57:04of those services need to link to the to
57:06the page or whatever about that service.
57:08So, that is one thing that really can
57:10move the needle quickly um is just get
57:13this the things all listed there um on
57:15whatever page it is and then experiment
57:17with what pages to send people to
57:19because that's another thing that
57:21>> I think it's a a not very commonly known
57:23thing is there is a diversity filter. I
57:25I don't know what to call it. We called
57:26it diversity update when it when I first
57:28kind of noticed it happening a couple
57:30years ago. But Google will basically um
57:32push your organic ranking down if you
57:35rank well in the local pack. Um and they
57:37do it on a page level. So if you are
57:39linking to your homepage on your Google
57:41business profile and your homepage also
57:42ranks organically, if you were to swap
57:44the page on your Google business profile
57:46to let's say like one of your service
57:48pages, your homepage and the organic
57:49results should move up. So that is um
57:52something we watch for like crazy as
57:54well. um that I I think it's it's a
57:57weird concept that a lot of people don't
57:58realize is even happening.
58:03>> What are what are some tactics that are
58:05getting a lot of attention in the in the
58:07local SEO world and you look at you're
58:10just like my gosh why are people
58:12obsessing about this? They like yeah
58:16>> citations I don't know man I don't get
58:18it. Like I'm like yes you need to be on
58:20some of the sites but like there's not
58:23very many. So, the sites you should care
58:25about are the ones that actually rank
58:28and show up. And there's usually not
58:30that many. Um, again, some industries
58:32are more than others. There's a lot in
58:33legal. Um, there's a lot of very
58:34specific lawyer sites that you want to
58:36be on. There's not many in insurance.
58:39So, if you're an insurance agent, like
58:41there's not very many specific niche
58:43sites that you need to be on. So, I
58:46don't understand. Like, everyone's like,
58:47"Oh, like uh it's a rebirth of citations
58:50with LLMs because LM are referencing
58:53them." And I'm like, "Okay, yes, Chat
58:54GBT did reference Map Quest when it
58:56first came out. Do you really think it's
58:57going to continue to reference Map
58:58Quest?" No. Like, not a chance. That's
59:01going to die.
59:06>> Yeah, we certainly don't do the 2017
59:10style hire a VA to type in your business
59:12details on every directory on the
59:14interwebs anymore. That just Yeah,
59:17there's like Yeah, there's a handful of
59:18citations. The ones that require more
59:20verification, the better. uh the more of
59:23a pain it is to get verified, the more
59:24you want to be on that site. 100%. Yeah.
59:28>> Um like I've seen a lot of people
59:31talking about uh CTR manipulation
59:34>> and
59:36Joyy's grinning. Um
59:39so the problem with it in my experience,
59:42maybe your viewers have a better
59:43experience or maybe Joy has a great
59:45experience with it, but Google knows
59:47what is realistic and what isn't
59:48realistic. So, if you're ranked in the
59:5020th spot and then suddenly you have 20
59:54people a day asking for directions to
59:56your business, that's not a realistic
59:59signal. So, even if you try to do CTR
1:00:02manipulation, and it's expensive to do
1:00:04correctly because you need to mask
1:00:05everything and use the VPN and all this
1:00:08jazz, you just can't. You have to be
1:00:11already ranking to be able to send
1:00:14enough signals for it to be reasonable.
1:00:16But if you're already ranking, then what
1:00:18are you doing? you're already ranking
1:00:19and you're like doing black hat stuff to
1:00:21to try to like what's the reward that
1:00:24we're going after?
1:00:25>> Yeah, we did an AMA with Ian Evan Evans
1:00:28I think is his last Agency Assassins his
1:00:31uh site and he does he sells a CTR
1:00:33manipulation tool. One of the smartest
1:00:35people I've talked to like he this guy
1:00:37knows so much about the algorithms.
1:00:39That's why I'm like he is fascinating.
1:00:40That being said, I won't touch CTR
1:00:42manipulation with a 10-ft pole. Like I
1:00:44do not like tactics that undo themselves
1:00:47when you stop doing them. So my fear is,
1:00:49you know, we get a client, we do a bunch
1:00:50of CTR manipulation, it works. I have no
1:00:52doubt it works. I've seen enough to
1:00:54again from other people and showing me
1:00:57um it works if you have the right
1:00:58parameters, but every single one of them
1:01:00tell me that if you stop those rankings
1:01:02reverse.
1:01:03>> Yeah. And I'm like, so what what I want
1:01:05a bunch of angry clients if they leave
1:01:07they tank. And what do you think that's
1:01:09going to do to my company's reputation?
1:01:11Like I do not want their reputation. So,
1:01:13I have looked at companies that have
1:01:16heavily utilized this and um I think
1:01:20it's dangerous because I again I don't
1:01:22know how AI deals with it, but I've
1:01:24heard from people who do it that it's
1:01:27not as important for AI and I'm like,
1:01:29"Oh, if that's your sole tactic, say
1:01:30goodbye to it." Um, but I don't like it
1:01:34because it undoes itself. I just I don't
1:01:36know.
1:01:37>> Well, how could it work? I I guess it
1:01:39would only work for AI if AI really
1:01:41cared where your GBP was ranked because
1:01:43obviously the AI the AI doesn't have
1:01:45access to be able to see that the CTR
1:01:47manipulation is happening.
1:01:49>> Yeah. I don't I don't know what the
1:01:50disconnect is. I haven't thought that
1:01:52far through it but um [clears throat] I
1:01:54I just it's something that I'm just like
1:01:55won't touch. And I've also heard if you
1:01:57overdo it, you can actually have
1:01:59penalties from it too. So that's uh Ben
1:02:02Fischer told me a story when I
1:02:03interviewed him on our YouTube channel
1:02:05about a company that uh was paying
1:02:08somebody and then um was going to cancel
1:02:10and they told him he had to pay some
1:02:12crazy cancellation fee and so they
1:02:14didn't and so they dialed up the CTR
1:02:15manipulation and this the GBPs all got
1:02:18suspended um which I was like holy crazy
1:02:21story but um it's I just I don't want to
1:02:25mess with this stuff. It's not my thing.
1:02:29You know what always goes viral when I
1:02:30make content on it? It's the driving
1:02:32directions.
1:02:33>> Yeah, because it works.
1:02:34>> Manipulation.
1:02:35>> To be clear, it works. I saw a business
1:02:36do it. I watched a business. So does
1:02:38fake reviews. If you go buy a bunch of
1:02:40reviews, your rankings will surge. I've
1:02:42I've tracked enough businesses doing
1:02:43this to know that it works. Uh but the
1:02:46the buying reviews one was funny. There
1:02:47was a law firm that I literally told
1:02:48them they would never rank because of
1:02:50how small they were and how big of an
1:02:52area that they were targeting. they were
1:02:54competing against firms that had
1:02:55thousands of reviews and they're massive
1:02:57firms that are just naturally going to
1:02:58get that volume. I'm like, "You can't
1:02:59rank for that term yet. You're just not
1:03:02like important enough. I don't know how
1:03:03to say this." Like they I tried to word
1:03:04it diplomatically. But um and then of
1:03:07course like I actually canceled them. I
1:03:09was like this is not a good fit. Like we
1:03:10we really shouldn't be working together.
1:03:13And then three or four months later I
1:03:15started seeing that the reviews start
1:03:16piling in like and they're clearly fake.
1:03:18And I was like holy crap. And I watched
1:03:19their rankings and lo and behold they
1:03:21started ranking for the term. I told
1:03:22them that they would never rank
1:03:23[laughter] for and I'm like, okay, in
1:03:26fairness, I didn't think about like
1:03:27going and buying 100 fake reviews, but
1:03:30yeah, they lost all the reviews. So,
1:03:32they lost all their rankings. So, it's
1:03:33like I I don't know. This is not the
1:03:35game that I want to play.
1:03:38>> Buying fake reviews for a law firm just
1:03:40makes me so like shuddering.
1:03:42>> You could lose your license. Like, I'm
1:03:44just like these people. I don't know. I
1:03:45don't get it.
1:03:48How can you How do you tell that uh that
1:03:52a review profile is manipulated?
1:03:55>> Oh my god. You look at enough of them,
1:03:56it becomes so obvious. Um they usually
1:03:59I'll tell you some big This is where I'm
1:04:01like, how much do I share? I'm like I
1:04:02don't really want to give like hat tips
1:04:04to people that are trying to like
1:04:05circumvent the the system. But um so a
1:04:10lot of the the they will block the
1:04:12reviews most of them. That's one of the
1:04:13biggest trends. I think I'll leave it at
1:04:15that because there are like a lot of
1:04:16ones that I don't really necessarily
1:04:17want to give out. Uh because I don't
1:04:19want people to get better at faking
1:04:21their reviews. Um but the biggest one
1:04:23that I see is usually they will block
1:04:25their profiles. Uh set them to private
1:04:27so you can't see all the different
1:04:28places they've reviewed. People do this
1:04:30on Reddit too for the record. They'll
1:04:31block the Reddit profile so you can't
1:04:33see where other places they comment and
1:04:34posted. One of the biggest red flags for
1:04:36mods. If you block your content, I
1:04:38automatically don't trust you.
1:04:42Have you seen people reporting bad
1:04:44reviews for defamation?
1:04:47>> Yes.
1:04:49>> Which is which is very common. It's very
1:04:50common in uh in Europe.
1:04:52>> I was going to say, do you know all that
1:04:53stuff [snorts] in Germany? Do you know
1:04:55about all that?
1:04:56>> That's what that's what I was talking
1:04:57about.
1:04:58>> Yeah. It's kind of funny. So that
1:05:01actually we want to release a video on
1:05:02this because what Google has started
1:05:04doing now is in Germany because there's
1:05:06this law basically if you have a
1:05:07negative review you can get it taken
1:05:09down. like literally anybody. So anybody
1:05:11that knows about this and exploits this
1:05:14can get all their negative reviews
1:05:15removed. So what Google started doing
1:05:17now is on profiles in Germany they show
1:05:20and I'm like oh my god. So look up
1:05:21locksmiths in Germany and look up
1:05:23personal injury lawyers in Germany and
1:05:24look at how many reviews they've gotten
1:05:25removed. I'm like I would never hire any
1:05:27of these people because I'm like you're
1:05:28sketchy.
1:05:30>> Yeah, super sketchy.
1:05:31>> I I want to like the tand effect or
1:05:34something. [snorts]
1:05:36>> What is it?
1:05:38Isn't that called the the striand effect
1:05:40when you try to bury something and it
1:05:41becomes more popular?
1:05:43>> Yeah, that's what it is. I want to I
1:05:45want to ask both of you how you approach
1:05:47website structure and it'd be
1:05:50interesting to hear what what you do
1:05:52different and what what you are both
1:05:54like doing the same. Yeah. So like what
1:05:58you're how you're thinking about
1:05:59subfolders, how you're thinking about
1:06:00internal linking.
1:06:03>> Uh so internal linking Oh, sorry. You
1:06:05want to start with Caleb?
1:06:06>> Oh, yeah. I was going to start with
1:06:07Caleb.
1:06:09>> Oh, okay. I was going to let Joe That's
1:06:11fine. Yeah. Um, okay.
1:06:14Well, [clears throat] now I'm really
1:06:15nervous because what if I say a bunch of
1:06:16things that Joey disagrees with. Okay.
1:06:18Well,
1:06:19>> that's that's going to make a more
1:06:20interesting podcast
1:06:21>> and every you know, the truth is like
1:06:23like everyone has a different way of
1:06:25doing SEO that that gets results.
1:06:27>> If it works, it works. It's going to be
1:06:30slightly different. Yeah.
1:06:31>> Um, so you asked about subfolders, URLs.
1:06:35uh we pay almost no attention to URLs.
1:06:38Uh it's the internal linking that we
1:06:40find is very important for how Google
1:06:42builds a structure of the of the website
1:06:45and understands the website. And it's
1:06:48we're basically we try to recreate the
1:06:50GBP structure on the website. So all of
1:06:53the services that live under the
1:06:54category, we're going to link those
1:06:56services to that category. Secondary
1:06:58categories linked to the primary
1:06:59category. So we end up building a mirror
1:07:02of the GBP on the website. And then when
1:07:05we look at rank maps, if we need more
1:07:07topical or geographical relevance for a
1:07:09given service entity or category, we're
1:07:12just going to build those pages and then
1:07:14link them to the page that we're trying
1:07:16to support.
1:07:20>> So I definitely care about URLs. Uh they
1:07:23keyword in the URL is a pretty big
1:07:25ranking factor for local pack rankings.
1:07:27>> Oh, fair. like the keyword the URL slug.
1:07:30Yes, we want the keywords and the URL
1:07:32slug. Agreed.
1:07:33>> Yeah. So, I've actually like uh I I
1:07:35don't want to get too egregious with it,
1:07:36but I've definitely like, you know,
1:07:38pushed the line or boundary on how many
1:07:40I can get in there. [laughter] Um
1:07:42because again, with the the local pack
1:07:44rankings, a lot of it does have to do
1:07:45with the page that you're sending your
1:07:46traffic to. So, I I had a employee of
1:07:48mine who I told her to to put more in
1:07:50and she put a lot in and I was like, "Oh
1:07:52my god, that URL is way too long." But
1:07:53then I was like shocked at seeing just
1:07:55how well their local pack ratings
1:07:56increased and I was like okay maybe this
1:07:58isn't a bad thing. On the organic side
1:08:00however changing URLs is somewhat risky
1:08:03because you usually see a ranking drop
1:08:06um within like 2 weeks and then
1:08:08sometimes it recovers and sometimes it
1:08:10doesn't. So I've seen both cases where
1:08:12uh you change the URL and Google's like
1:08:15okay fine you're you're good in two
1:08:16weeks. And in other cases uh you don't
1:08:18go back to where you were. Oh,
1:08:22>> it looks like cut out. You cut out, but
1:08:24I think we're we're I think we're good.
1:08:26It says your internet connection is
1:08:28good. Yeah.
1:08:29>> Okay. Uh the other thing with internal
1:08:31links is I think uh the actually the
1:08:33biggest um miss I see is for people we
1:08:37actually categorize pages. We have like
1:08:39a spreadsheet that we put pages on and
1:08:41I'll categorize them as like money pages
1:08:43or we have this term called source
1:08:44pages. Source pages are pages that get a
1:08:46lot of traffic that have a lot of power,
1:08:48right? So for those pages, you actually
1:08:50want as few internal links as possible
1:08:51on them because it's a math equation. If
1:08:54you link to 500 sites, you're splitting
1:08:56your page rank between 500 pages uh
1:08:59versus 10 or three. So we have a very
1:09:01low limit for those. Um and then for
1:09:04same thing for your navigation. Most
1:09:06businesses when we first start working
1:09:07with them, they they list like 50 pages
1:09:11in their top nav and we usually try to
1:09:13cut this to as few as possible. uh we
1:09:15want to keep the main core ones but like
1:09:17you know uh using the personal injury
1:09:19lawyer case you do not need 50 different
1:09:22types of cases that you may work on in
1:09:26your navigation. So by shortening the
1:09:29list all the ones you leave in increase
1:09:32like the organic traffic increases.
1:09:37>> Yeah. But nav links essentially function
1:09:40almost as a no follow link. So when you
1:09:42put a ton of nav nav links, you're just
1:09:45using a bunch of authority.
1:09:48You're not sending it to where you want
1:09:50it to go. Yeah,
1:09:55>> pretty similar then. Yeah, pretty
1:09:56similar.
1:09:56>> Yeah, we didn't disagree too much.
1:10:00>> I have a I have one last question. I
1:10:02have a last question. We're going to end
1:10:02it with this one. I think this is a good
1:10:04this a just a All right, we we talked
1:10:06about so much stuff on this episode and
1:10:10I think it's possible that some people
1:10:11might listen and just kind of feel
1:10:13overwhelmed and so and which is which is
1:10:16a point like we want to talk about a
1:10:18like we want to talk about a lot share
1:10:20as much good stuff as we can but for for
1:10:23that listener who is feeling overwhelmed
1:10:25if a listener is only going to take one
1:10:29action after this episode what action
1:10:32gives the highest highest probability of
1:10:34producing a measurable business result
1:10:37within 30 days.
1:10:39>> Go get an award and tell everyone about
1:10:41it. Make sure you tell everybody about
1:10:43it everywhere. Your socials, your
1:10:44website. Blast that sucker everywhere.
1:10:47>> Would you put out a press release on the
1:10:48award?
1:10:49>> Oh, totally.
1:10:52>> Yeah, I really I really like that. And
1:10:54yeah, it it it ranks. It's so good for
1:10:57LLMs. It's good for searchers, too.
1:10:59Searchers are looking up reviews,
1:11:01looking up the business name. They see
1:11:02they see like the reward stuff. Make a
1:11:04video on it.
1:11:05>> Mhm.
1:11:06>> Make a video talking about this reward.
1:11:07Yeah. [laughter]
1:11:11>> Yeah. Um I would say get your GBP
1:11:14correct. Get the services categories
1:11:15correct. Don't keyword stuff. Uh and
1:11:18then the secondary categories and the
1:11:20core services you really really care
1:11:22about. Talk about them on your GBP
1:11:24landing page.
1:11:28>> Caleb Joy, this is a lot of fun.
1:11:32Thank you so much for coming on the
1:11:33podcast. This is awesome.
1:11:35>> You forgot Caleb's dog.
1:11:37>> Caleb's dog. What's What's your dog's
1:11:39name?
1:11:40>> His name is Jasper. He's He spends most
1:11:43of his day sitting on my lap.
1:11:44>> Jasper, thank you for coming on the
1:11:45podcast.
1:11:47>> I don't even like dogs, but that's a
1:11:48cute dog.
1:11:49>> It's an adorable dog. He's He's a small
1:11:53puppy.
1:11:53>> He knows it, too. That's the problem.
1:11:55>> He knows it.
1:11:57All right. Hey, this is episode 1,128
1:12:00of the podcast. 1,128 days in a row
1:12:04doing this show. Thank you again, Joy.
1:12:06Thank you again, Caleb. If you watch
1:12:08this on
1:12:09>> Thank you so much.
1:12:09>> Thank you. Thank you. Thank you both.
1:12:11This was great. If you watch this
1:12:12episode on YouTube, thank you so much
1:12:14for watching. If you listened on Spotify
1:12:16or Apple Podcast, thank you so much for
1:12:18listening and I will talk to you again
1:12:21tomorrow. Bye now.

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