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LIVE: Robert Durst testifies at his murder trial in Los Angeles — Transcript

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0:00for persons who might have difficulty
0:02wearing masks when when speaking
0:05and so
0:06i i have allowed that
0:09but we do need to be as careful as we
0:11can and even those persons are required
0:13to put their masks back back on as uh
0:16when when you're not speaking dr loftus
0:19thank you
0:20so um let me see are we ready
0:23not yet
0:24i'll give you a minute we won't
0:27want that to work
0:39yes good morning mr chestnut
0:41goodness good morning
0:46[Applause]
1:05so
1:23down
1:32so
1:49uh
2:06thank you
2:09all good
2:14all right this um
2:15moment of tranquility was uh i hope you
2:18enjoyed that that moment
2:21now back to the adversarial process
2:24and we will
2:27all right so uh dr loftus as i mentioned
2:30has uh has returned to the witness stand
2:31i'll remind you that you
2:33remain under oath yes and uh mr lewin
2:37you may
2:38continue with your cross-examination of
2:40the witness
2:42doc laughs i promise we're almost three
2:45quarters done
2:46i'm just kidding i promise we'll be done
2:48before the lunch hour objection
2:54i can go on longer sure
2:56so when we left off last thursday we
2:59left off very suddenly kind of in the
3:01middle of something and i just want to
3:02make sure that
3:03where we are you had just given your
3:05answer i'd asked you a hypothetical
3:08about the six to eight witnesses most of
3:10whom did not know each other
3:11all of whom had said they never
3:13discussed anything with each other and
3:15all of whom
3:16had said that either they had no outside
3:19information
3:20or they had an extremely strong memory
3:22of the actual statements from the close
3:24friend
3:25about her participation in helping to
3:28cover up a murder and that they were not
3:30influenced in any way by any outside
3:33statements or outside information do you
3:34remember that hypothetical
3:37something like that yes and
3:40i asked you then the question was would
3:42you read it in such a scenario
3:45if that were true that the witness
3:47memories would they absolutely
3:48corroborate each other and you responded
3:50quote if that had happened and there was
3:52no suggestion and you had multiple
3:54people versus a single person you could
3:56call it cooperation and it would produce
3:59a tendency of wanting to think the gist
4:01was accurate do you recall saying that
4:03something like that
4:05and then i asked you if in that scenario
4:09would
4:10such
4:11uh if each of those hypothetical facts
4:13were true
4:14be consistent or inconsistent with the
4:16implantation of false memory to those
4:19six to eight people and you responded in
4:21that hypothetical i would say there was
4:23no evidence of any implantation
4:25do you recall saying that something like
4:27that and that still that still reflects
4:29both of those your opinions correct yes
4:33and then i asked you and this is where
4:34we were
4:35i asked you
4:37i would assume that the reason you did
4:39not give a qualifier
4:42in those two answers
4:44is because you agree that no qualifier
4:46was necessary would that be correct
4:52i was comfortable with the answer i gave
4:56okay so so again doctor if you can i'm
4:57going to ask my question again
4:59you would agree
5:01in what i just read you your answers
5:03were there was no qualifier correct
5:08i didn't i didn't hear one no okay so i
5:11want you to assume that those were the
5:13answers that you gave you previously
5:15testified you are extremely careful in
5:17all of your answers which is why you
5:19have given qualifiers including when i
5:22asked you whether the earth was round
5:24and you responded probably do you recall
5:26that testimony
5:29well something like that i you'd have to
5:31read it back to me
5:33well this was just from last week so i'm
5:35not talking about the exact words would
5:37you agree doctor
5:38that when i pressed you
5:40on the idea that you seemed to give
5:42qualifiers for nearly every opinion i
5:45asked
5:46you responded that as a scientist that
5:48you needed to be very careful in essence
5:51in the answers you gave is that a fair
5:53statement
5:55yes
5:56so my question is i would assume then
5:59that the reason you gave no qualifier at
6:02all
6:03to those two hypotheticals that i just
6:05went through
6:06is because you decided
6:09based on the information in the
6:11hypothetical that no qualifier was
6:13necessary would you agree
6:20yes
6:21all right i want to i had a follow-up
6:23question regarding your work on the case
6:25i want to know how many of the
6:27approximately 73 to 77 hours that you
6:30build on this case were spent watching
6:33actual video of witnesses and not simply
6:36going through transcripts
6:37i i don't know
6:39well can you give an estimate doctor did
6:41you was it half your work was it a small
6:44amount uh it was a large amount so
6:47doctor you would agree that in going
6:50through the witnesses you listed and
6:52again we're not talking about i want to
6:53be clear i don't want your opinion about
6:55any of the witnesses we're not going to
6:56talk about names i'm just talking about
6:58as a group
6:59you indicated that you went through you
7:02were given 41 different witnesses of
7:06statements to go through would you agree
7:13either part or all of
7:15some number i don't remember if it was
7:1741. well i want you to assume for a
7:19moment that mr chesnov
7:21has indicated in the discovery that you
7:24were given
7:26statements to review of 41 witnesses
7:29does that sound
7:32about right
7:34i
7:34got information on perhaps that many
7:37people yes so my question you would be
7:40you would agree doctor and again i don't
7:41want you to name any particular witness
7:43there were certain witnesses
7:45who had
7:47almost that many hours worth of video
7:50one witness to watch would you agree
7:53i don't know well so doctor the question
7:55would be then that if you're saying that
7:57you primarily reviewed video and if some
8:00of these witnesses that we're talking
8:01about themselves
8:03occupied three
8:05four days of video
8:07how would you have had the time to have
8:09actually seen video of these witnesses
8:12did you just look at little snippets
8:14i might
8:15project on the relevancy since
8:21i might not have watched all the videos
8:23i probably didn't well when you say
8:26probably didn't doctor that's a
8:27qualifier you would agree
8:29and again you are aware now that there
8:31are witnesses in this case where there
8:34would be just in court testimony
8:38just in court testimony
8:4015 20 25 hours of video to watch correct
8:46i don't know the number but i did not
8:48watch all the trial no
8:51doctor you didn't even watch all of the
8:53conditional examinations or videotaped
8:55interviews leading up to the trial did
8:56you
8:59i doubt it well when you say you doubt
9:01it at 73 hours doctor
9:04wouldn't it be rather than doubt it it
9:06would be a physical impossibility
9:07correct
9:13perhaps
9:14maybe
9:15i know you won't like that but maybe
9:18okay that was
9:21reconsidering the objection thank you
9:25doctor
9:26i'm going to take one more shot here
9:30if it's your testimony
9:32that you spent 73 to 77
9:34hours is it a fair response on your part
9:38to only say probably or maybe
9:41that i didn't go through
9:43the majority of videotaped testimony on
9:46this case or would a more accurate and
9:48fair answer be simply
9:50no i didn't do that
9:54i doubt that i reviewed all the material
9:57but i spent many more than those 77
9:59hours
10:01and doctor you would agree
10:03that to properly assess
10:07and to give a complete
10:09opinion on what's going on you need to
10:11look at all of the available statements
10:14of the witness correct objection
10:15irrelevant yeah sustain
10:18you're on on relevance grounds yes
10:21352 352. okay
10:25all right i want to talk for a moment uh
10:27one question about your work on harvey
10:29weinstein in re-listening to your
10:31testimony
10:32i really listened to all of it i noticed
10:34that when you were asked about your fees
10:35you said that you quote
10:37settled on a fee of 14 000
10:40but i didn't ask you what had your fees
10:42been before you quote settled
10:47at the time i quoted six hundred dollars
10:49an hour
10:51and
10:52they
10:55the office
10:57people i was interacting with said that
10:59there were
11:00all kinds of financial problems
11:03and asked me if i would agree
11:06four days in new york and we didn't know
11:08it would be four days
11:10for fourteen thousand dollars and i
11:12agreed to that figure but hadn't you
11:14already spent time going over materials
11:16before that
11:22that was not part of that case so that
11:25case was simply without going reviewing
11:27anything you're just coming to court and
11:29testifying
11:31for the fourteen thousand dollars no
11:33prep work i was a teaching expert in
11:35that case
11:36no specifics about the people the
11:40specific people were
11:42permitted or offered okay i want to go
11:45back doctor
11:46to
11:47my questions regarding rule 306
11:50last week
11:52i asked you a question about ethics and
11:53you said if you recall you needed more
11:56time to think about it
11:57the question involved whether or not you
11:59would agree that would be an ethical
12:00violation a conflict of interest for you
12:03to take on a case as an expert witness
12:06for the defense where a family member of
12:08yours was the name victim last week when
12:10i asked you you said you needed more
12:12time to think about the issue whether it
12:14would be a conflict or an ethical
12:15violation and as you recall at the time
12:18i said you know what i'm going to return
12:20to this near the end of my questioning
12:22when you've had time to think about it
12:23so now that you've had that time
12:25can you tell me what your answer would
12:26be
12:29i read the two sentences in that
12:34guideline from the
12:36psychology organization
12:38and
12:39i agree that if you
12:41if there is
12:43a question that you might not be as
12:46competent or objective or effective
12:50uh you should refrain from participating
12:53that makes sense to me so doctor you've
12:55now explained the rules so now applying
12:57the rule to that situation would you
12:59agree then
13:00that certainly
13:01you could not be objective
13:04in testifying as an expert witness where
13:07a family member was the name victim
13:09would you agree i disagree with that
13:13okay
13:14um
13:16i want to move on
13:17to a couple of my last areas here
13:21would you agree doctor that in
13:22evaluating the accuracy and or
13:25credibility
13:26of any witness any witness
13:30when they are repeating a statement
13:33by somebody else so you have a group of
13:35witnesses who allege they heard a
13:37statement from somebody else from the
13:39same person following my my question so
13:42far
13:43yes okay
13:45would you agree
13:46that there really are only kind of three
13:48choices either the testifying witness
13:51themselves is lying
13:53knowingly
13:55number two the testifying witness is not
13:57lying but they're mistaken about the
14:00substance of the original memory
14:03or that three
14:05the testifying witness is neither lying
14:07nor mistaken about the original memory
14:10of what the close friend told them
14:13that in actuality the issue would be
14:16that the close friend was lying when
14:19they said it would you agree that those
14:21three possibilities
14:22would cover the situation in terms of
14:26you looking at
14:28the
14:29memories of witnesses reporting prior
14:32conversations with a witness would you
14:33agree
14:35i agree those are three alternative
14:37possibilities right yes and
14:39would you agree doctor
14:41that in terms of those possibilities
14:43that as an expert on memory
14:46that the only one of those three
14:48that you're qualified to discuss you're
14:50not qualified to say whether the
14:52witnesses are lying you would agree
14:54that's up to the jury right
14:56that's
14:57yes okay you would agree you're not
14:59qualified to say whether or not the
15:01original source of the information was
15:03lying
15:04that's again up to the jury correct
15:07the only
15:08of those three possibilities the only
15:11area where you would be able to render
15:13an expert opinion would be
15:16if in fact the theory is
15:18these witnesses are not lying they are
15:21simply mistaken
15:23in their memories would you agree
15:28that that's exactly
15:30what i study when people
15:32say things that are
15:34not authentic but they are not
15:37deliberately lying that's that's the
15:39only
15:40expertise i have right and you would
15:42agree there is a fourth possibility
15:44though correct and that would be
15:47that the witnesses
15:49are not lying
15:51and they're not inaccurate repeating
15:53what was told to them and
15:55that the source of the information was
15:57not lying when they said it you would
15:59agree that's a fourth possibility
16:01correct yes and you would agree that in
16:03deciding those possibilities that's the
16:06jury's job is that right absolutely
16:09and
16:10finally you would agree that as an
16:11expert your appropriate role is simply
16:14to explain to the jury
16:16your belief in your experience of how
16:18memory works right
16:20yes and you would agree that in
16:22testifying as an expert witness
16:25you're not in any way suggesting that
16:27any memory in this case was implanted
16:30you're just saying here's how memories
16:32can be implanted in jury you need to
16:33figure out if it happened in this case
16:35is that right yes
16:37um you would also agree that the jury
16:39who has heard all the evidence of the
16:41case they're in the best decision
16:43position to decide which of these
16:45scenarios is correct would you agree
16:48yes okay
16:50i'm gonna go to my last area right now
16:53you have previously related in your
16:56prior testimony
16:57in profile pieces and in fact you
16:59testified about it during this case
17:02that you have kind of difficulty
17:04acknowledging or discussing your
17:06accomplishments kind of acknowledging
17:09your ego is that correct
17:12well
17:13i i would prefer that other people
17:15mention the accomplishments rather than
17:19i do it yes
17:20in fact
17:21you were asked this exact question i
17:23asked this to you during the jackson
17:24case in 2012 at page 148 lines 4-6 where
17:29i asked you ma'am you don't have a
17:31problem acknowledging your ego correct
17:33and you responded i disagree with that i
17:36do have a problem
17:37does that
17:38encompass your belief in this area
17:43i'm not sure i i believe that i may have
17:47said that 13 years ago but
17:50i'm not going to disagree with it now
17:52okay and
17:53in your 1996 book the diva of disclosure
17:57you stated on page two of that book
17:59quote i keep thinking of oscar schindler
18:02circling the lake with thousands of
18:04people if i could save one more person
18:07can you indicate since you've compared
18:09yourself to oscar schindler who's oscar
18:11schindler
18:12i didn't there are falsehoods in your
18:15assumption in your question so i can't
18:18answer the question well
18:20doctor
18:21have you not
18:22in the diva of disclosure
18:24on page two of your book did you not say
18:27i keep thinking of oscar schindler
18:29circling lake with thousands of people
18:31if i could save one more person i never
18:33wrote a book by that title you'll have
18:35to show me what you're talking about
18:37are you familiar with a with a an
18:40article or a book called the diva of
18:41disclosure
18:43uh there was a
18:45an article in the 90s
18:49that
18:50written by somebody else that
18:53not written by me
18:55there was a title something like that
18:56did you give that quote
18:59we've never seen this
19:02wait what
19:03he says yeah he says he hasn't
19:06hasn't seen it that's okay that's not uh
19:08wait wait if he if you're going to
19:10present it to the witness show it
19:12otherwise you
19:17let's put it up
19:19okay i'll put it up you want her you
19:21know what to do
19:23to the council
20:03thank you
20:04doctor did you do an interview let me
20:07correct myself a lot of sources to keep
20:09track of this was not a book this was an
20:12article called
20:14the debuff disclosure
20:15once you put it up mr williams
20:18put up the title page please
20:25this was an article in psychology of
20:27today
20:29on you by jim nymark does that
20:33refresh your recollection all jill jill
20:359-1 thank you sorry yes okay
20:38so
20:38i want to go
20:43and i want you to read
20:45starting with but act 5 out loud please
20:51but act 5
20:53is yet to come and may never end
20:56for how do these innocently accused
20:58individuals put their lives back
21:00together
21:02it is the theme
21:04that haunts elizabeth loftus
21:07quote i keep thinking of oscar schindler
21:09circling the lake with thousands of
21:11people she says without a trace of irony
21:14though she adds that she realizes people
21:17may misinterpret the statement
21:19as one of hubris if i could save one
21:22more person
21:25doctor he accused have been shot at
21:28ostracized imprisoned interrogated lost
21:31jobs
21:32homes and forced to fight lawsuits
21:35that have sometimes bankrupt them in
21:38some cases the charges seem entirely
21:41false
21:42as wall street journal writer dorothy
21:44rabinowitz writes of the notorious
21:46emerald case where three members of a
21:49family were accused of molesting the
21:51children in their model day care center
21:54quote no reasonable person who looked at
21:56the trial transcript could doubt that
21:59three innocent
22:00citizens were sent to prison on the
22:02basis of some of the most fantastic
22:05claims
22:06ever presented to an american
22:08jury so end quote so doctor
22:11are you telling me that you literally
22:13forgot until you read this that you
22:15compared yourself to oscar schindler
22:18that doesn't say that i'm sorry
22:21objection mischaracterizes
22:24what was
22:25what's in the article
22:28okay let's have our first sidebar of the
22:30day
28:26all right let's uh
28:28matt continue on yes yes okay doctor so
28:31the question i have for you is
28:33you would agree that
28:35the quote
28:37bring up oscar schindler that was you
28:39bringing up oscar schindler correct
28:42it said i was thinking about
28:44him
28:45right but i'm just saying it's not the
28:46reporter i asked you about oscar
28:48schindler
28:49you interjected oscar schindler into
28:51this correct
28:52yes and my question to you is doctor do
28:55you really think
28:56it is a fair comparison
28:59to equate yourself
29:01as an expert witness
29:02charging 700 per hour to a man who
29:06helped the jews avoid execution
29:09in the holocaust
29:10is that a fair comparison
29:13i wasn't comparing myself to him
29:16he is somebody who said i wish i had
29:19more time to save one more person and
29:22that's exactly how i feel i wish i had
29:24more time
29:26to save one innocent person like tim
29:29hennis
29:31objection your honor beyond the
29:33agreement
29:34she responded question that's why like
29:37tim hennis correct
29:38352. i'll sustain the objection thank
29:41you
29:45redirect yes thank you
29:48try to get it out of here before lunch
29:51okay
29:52if not that you take the time you need
29:53thank you
29:54first question doctor are you related
29:57to bob
29:59no okay related to any of us no okay so
30:02this case has nothing to do with who
30:04you're related to or the ethics of that
30:06correct correct
30:08i'm going to show you
30:10uh the chart
30:11which we previously worked with your and
30:14i've marked it as next in order which is
30:16defense g g
30:19ready g exactly i like that
30:22um your honor i would move for its
30:24admission along with the cv which was f
30:27which we previously introduced all right
30:29we will discuss that thank you
30:34please tell us again how acquisition is
30:38defined
30:40acquisition acquisition is is a period
30:43of time
30:44a phase where
30:46some event occurs it could be a visual
30:48event it could be a conversation it
30:50could be any kind of event and some
30:53information then
30:54might enter a person's memory at that
30:57time
30:58and then again explaining retention
31:02once that event is over
31:04and time is passing that's the retention
31:07phase
31:08uh and
31:09then new
31:11factors come into play that can affect
31:13memory
31:15at the retention phase and then the
31:17retrieval phase
31:19retrieval is when somebody tries to
31:22remember what happened tries to answer
31:24questions
31:25testify in court
31:27uh that
31:28these are all acts of retrieval and
31:30there of course can be
31:32many occasions where somebody is trying
31:34to retrieve information
31:37you spent 77 hours reviewing materials
31:40that were provided to you
31:42by mr durst lawyers correct yes
31:45and you did that yourself correct
31:48well some of those hours were spent in
31:50in in um
31:52having conversations about the material
31:55correct but not you didn't have like a
31:56graduate assistant reading it or an
31:58associate read it you did it all
32:00yourself no i did everything myself yes
32:04and
32:05we didn't ask you to look at everything
32:09because your testimony was going to be
32:11limited
32:13to teaching the jury about how memory
32:16works
32:17not about the particular witnesses in
32:19this case correct that's correct
32:22did i ever ask you or did mr dagara
32:25never ask you to give an opinion on mr
32:28dirk's guilt or innocence no
32:31in fact have you ever even met mr durst
32:35no i i've not met him actually
32:38personally no have you ever talked to
32:40him i i believe i
32:43waved to him once
32:45in court in court yeah i've never talked
32:47to him though and he went back
32:49i think he weighed back or he he maybe
32:52waved first i'm not sure so please tell
32:55the jury
32:56what you understood
32:58you were hired for
33:01to
33:02communicate information about the nature
33:04of memory
33:06uh the kinds of things that can affect
33:08memory the malleability of memory
33:11when people
33:12do
33:14develop
33:16false memories or exaggerated memories
33:19or change memories what their
33:21characteristics are that they can be
33:23detailed and confident and even
33:25emotional about false memories
33:28the nature of memory
33:35how do leading questions affect
33:37witnesses memories
33:39leaning questions can come into play
33:43at the retrieval phase and can
33:47contaminate what a person remembers
33:50and and then can also act like
33:53post-event information and affect what
33:55people remember
33:57subsequently when they try to retrieve
34:00at a later time
34:02can be interviewed
34:04where there are multiple people present
34:07multiple law enforcement people present
34:10impact memories based on the studies
34:14uh i'm
34:15i'm not sure i
34:17can point to a study where if there's a
34:20single law enforcement versus multiple
34:23whether
34:26whether that would affect the accuracy i
34:28i as i said here i can't think of a
34:30study that
34:32would really allow me to answer that one
34:35way or another are there studies that
34:37can explain to the jury how being
34:39interviewed
34:40with hypotheticals can impact memory
34:44yes there are studies that show if you
34:45give people kind of a hypothetical
34:47situation
34:50sometimes people will remember that
34:52hypothetical as if it
34:54were something that happened or
34:55something they experienced
34:57that can be a form of post-event
35:00suggestion
35:01can leading questions
35:03cause the same issues yes
35:06repeated leading questions
35:08if you repeat the post event suggestion
35:11it maximizes its
35:14suggestive effect
35:16it increases it's sorry i'm sorry
35:19what what impact would
35:21persistent
35:23interrupting questions
35:25have on a witness
35:29from my own experience here in court
35:31it's kind of stressful
35:34and what does stress do in terms of
35:37people's memory oh it's well stress is
35:39not not particularly good for for for
35:41memory can you explain to the jury why
35:45well sometimes it leads to distracting
35:47thoughts and you can lose your focus
35:50can it also lead to
35:53having information imparted that you
35:55really didn't remember
36:04there is evidence that if you uh if
36:08people are sometimes aroused they can be
36:10more
36:11susceptible to contamination
36:14how about if a person has a false memory
36:18can that person still be convinced that
36:20they remember that which is untrue
36:24in other words you have a false memory
36:27you really don't know that it's false
36:29in some instances correct
36:32that's that's that's true and
36:34in all of these studies when people
36:36succumb to the suggestion
36:38uh that they're exposed to they they
36:41don't
36:42realize that their
36:43their recollections have been distorted
36:45or contaminated it feels like a
36:48recollection to them
36:50now in the course of
36:52your
36:53years of work
36:55have you
36:56lectured to lawyers and continuing
37:00legal education settings
37:02many times yes and can you explain to
37:04the jury the purpose of your
37:06lectures objection relevance to outside
37:09the scope across
37:12oh
37:16well i
37:17have done
37:19lots of lecturing to different members
37:22of the legal profession to
37:24lawyers
37:26many defense attorneys also groups of
37:28prosecutors
37:30particularly back in 1983
37:34to the
37:34arizona prosecutors after a um
37:39well maybe this is saying too much but
37:41um
37:44after a conviction was overturned when
37:46my testimony was excluded
37:48uh and so the prosecutors invited me to
37:51lecture to their group
37:54then all kinds of law enforcement
37:56agencies
37:57some of which i mentioned
37:59earlier in this testimony
38:01the secret service the fbi the cia and
38:04other groups
38:06do you vary your lecture
38:09on the science of memory when you're
38:12talking to different groups or do you
38:14tell people
38:16your science how does that work i i tell
38:19them about the science and and
38:23and about what
38:25i and and many other scientists have
38:27learned about the nature of memory and
38:30and the whole
38:32effects of interviewing and
38:35and other things that are relevant to
38:36the legal profession
38:39have you
38:41provided scientific information that has
38:44caused
38:45law enforcement in
38:48the photo lineup situation to change
38:51their practices
38:53well it's not just my work but the the
38:55work of of me
38:57and many others have it have changed the
39:00way law enforcement
39:02agencies actually conduct their
39:04interviews and their testing yes
39:07and that's based on the studies and the
39:09work that you've done and that you've
39:10studied correct well i don't want to
39:13take full credit for it but but some of
39:15the work that i've done but also many
39:17other scientists who've worked in the
39:18same field and who
39:20have communicated these scientific
39:22findings to law enforcement to affect
39:25those
39:26changes in the way things are being done
39:28so the law enforcement people have taken
39:31what you and other people like you in
39:33your field
39:35have said about memory and modified the
39:37way they do things so that it's more
39:40consistent with getting a true memory
39:42that's fair
39:44it also is going to call for hearsay
39:47there's also a lack of foundation and
39:49it's also 352 and irrelevant both
39:53that's
39:54everything let's see if i hit four out
39:57of five i'll be in the hall of fame okay
39:59hold on
40:23that objection was so long that i forgot
40:25the question would you like it right
40:26back yes please
40:54question so the law enforcement people
40:56have taken what you and other people
40:58like you in your field have said about
41:00memory and modified the way they do
41:02things so that it's more consistent with
41:05getting a true memory is that correct
41:08yes it is i could give an example if it
41:11would help please
41:13so
41:16one kind of thing that law enforcement
41:19typically or frequently might do is
41:22take a witness to a crime and show them
41:25a lineup
41:29the long-standing question is who
41:32should
41:32conduct that lineup should it be the
41:35investigating officer or should it be
41:37somebody who does not know who the
41:40suspect is you're an objection relevant
41:42three to two within the context of this
41:44case well no it's
41:47it's overruled it's it's
41:50all right
41:50it's overall that's fine
41:55and in the past
41:57many law enforcement agencies would have
42:00the investigating detective conduct the
42:02lineup
42:03but now after considerable research that
42:06shows that it is far better
42:09to have
42:10a person conduct the lineup who does not
42:12know who the suspect is
42:14many agencies are changing the way they
42:17do things so that they do what is called
42:20blind testing a person who conducts the
42:23lineup who doesn't know
42:25who the suspect is so they cannot
42:27inadvertently cue the witness to try to
42:31pick number five and they cannot give
42:33feedback to the witness
42:36after an identification is made and
42:39thereby artificially inflate or deflate
42:42their confidence
42:44so your science has assisted law
42:46enforcement in those instances
42:48we think so yes
42:51mr lewin asked you about the 350 people
42:55that have been exonerated
42:57you didn't exonerate them did you don't
43:00didn't a judge or a court do that
43:03that's correct the this is the innocence
43:05project in new york
43:07in new york
43:08um and
43:10they have um provided information about
43:14350 cases i you know i may have worked
43:17on a couple of those cases but i'm not
43:19the person who does the exoneration they
43:21have
43:22found uh
43:24evidence that that proved um
43:28to a court that these individuals were
43:30actually innocent i i did one of these
43:33cases and so my question is this
43:36there are people who are exonerated by a
43:38court do i need an objection your honor
43:40or
43:42it's an inappropriate question the way
43:43it starts i suppose
43:46rephrase it okay
43:48experienced lawyers volunteer just like
43:51you sometimes volunteer to help in these
43:54exoneration cases correct
43:56yes okay and when the person
43:59is exonerated it is done by a court
44:03correct
44:05yes sometimes the district attorneys
44:07join in the request correct in some
44:10cases yes and those people who sat in
44:13jail that were not guilty of what they
44:16were put in jail for
44:18are victims in your mind are they not
44:23they're suffering victims but so are
44:25their extended family members and so
44:28when you were answering mr lewin just
44:30now
44:31about your desire to be able to do this
44:34for as many people as possible it's
44:36because you have experienced
44:39people who are victims of having been
44:41falsely convicted correct
44:43yes
44:47[Applause]
44:50mr lewin asked you about people who
44:52don't know each other having a similar
44:54memory
44:56if the different people are questioned
44:58by the same person
45:01who ask leading questions
45:03presents hypotheticals
45:05with other people on his team present
45:09is it possible this is an inappropriate
45:11hypothetical that does not reflect the
45:13evidence we can go sidebar okay okay
45:16let him finish him thank you
45:19if the
45:20if different people are questioned by
45:22the same person
45:23who asked leading questions
45:26who presents hypotheticals
45:28with other people on his team present
45:31can that impact them having a similar
45:34memory
45:35all right i do think it does call for uh
45:39i'll sustain the objection hopefully we
45:41can talk sidebar if you like or not okay
45:43i'll withdraw it right
45:47how about if the different people with
45:48similar memories
45:50all were exposed to news accounts movies
45:53books
45:54gossip
45:55things like that can that impact
45:58their memory improper hypothetical based
46:00on the evidence
46:04those would be other examples of
46:06post-event suggestion that can
46:09could contaminate the memory of people
46:11even if they didn't talk with each other
46:13so people who don't know each other
46:15who tell the same story
46:18can have a false memory impacted by
46:21post-event suggestion correct that can
46:23happen yes
46:28can one's opinion of the truthfulness
46:32of the person telling the story
46:35affect the acquisition process
46:39it could
46:41if you are hearing a story from somebody
46:43you don't think is particularly truthful
46:45you might not pay as much attention to
46:47it and that would be one way
46:49in which
46:50the
46:52credibility of the speaker could affect
46:54acquisition so if the person is known as
46:57a liar
46:59a storyteller
47:01an exaggerator
47:03a drama queen
47:04that could have impact on the memory
47:06correct it could
47:14what scientific effect does post event
47:17information have on memory
47:22well i i thought i've already testified
47:24about that so i'll just be brief that
47:26post-event information
47:28can supplement memory can contaminate
47:31memory can distort
47:33memory and distort your memory for the
47:36details of an event that actually did
47:38happen and it can even
47:40plant entirely false memories in the
47:42mind of someone
47:44for something that didn't happen
47:46um
47:48i probably did ask this if i did i
47:50apologize to everybody but would you
47:52remind us what confidence inflation is
47:55uh yes um when somebody gives you a
47:58memory report
48:00and they say um and they express a level
48:02of confidence
48:03they might say you know i think that's
48:06true or
48:07uh
48:08they give up maybe a low confidence
48:10number
48:1130 sure
48:1350 sure
48:14or they in words indicate kind of a lack
48:17of confidence my memory is foggy if you
48:20give them feedback
48:22if you give them post-event information
48:25that
48:26for example other people are saying the
48:28same thing or some kind of information
48:32that reinforces this memory you can
48:34inflate their confidence they're not
48:36more accurate but they become more
48:39confident because of that post-event
48:42feedback
48:44couple more questions
48:47does the notoriety of the defendant
48:49affect the science of memory
48:51as far as you're concerned no
48:55you know lawyers will take unpopular
48:57cases because of the constitution and
48:59doctors have the hippocratic oath you
49:02tell the jury why it is
49:04that you testify
49:06on behalf of citizens that are accused
49:08of crime that have not been convicted
49:13because we are
49:15living in a
49:17democratic society where
49:20even everyone has a right to
49:24be presumed innocent and and even
49:26unpopular people
49:28have a right to to a trial and
49:31thank goodness there are people who are
49:33willing to step in and
49:37make sure these rights are protected
49:41is it easier for you to help the
49:44indigent when you do
49:46because you get paid by people
49:48in other cases that can afford your your
49:51hourly rate
49:54well
49:55i i don't know if it's easier i i mean i
49:58you know i can work on cases where i can
50:00be
50:01paid well but i also throughout my
50:04career i've worked for many poor people
50:06who couldn't
50:07really afford much of anything and
50:10even
50:12you know would stay at the
50:14home of a
50:16a lawyer or someone to save the indigent
50:18defendant from having to spend money on
50:21a hotel room
50:23as a scientist doctor do you judge the
50:26defendant or do you leave that to the
50:28jury
50:29that's absolutely the jury's job
50:32courts and dollars
50:48no further questions
50:50all right
50:51okay let's come back at 1 30. all right
50:54so ladies and gentlemen we'll return
50:56writing 130 do not converse among
50:58yourselves or with anyone else on any
51:00subject
1:00:55thank you
1:00:56okay
1:00:58additional compensation
1:01:00okay you can cross-examine on that point
1:01:02and anything else you just might yeah mr
1:01:05lewis
1:01:06i would think he'd be better than subway
1:01:08but and i'll remind you that you are
1:01:11under oath
1:01:15we'll try to get you out of before that
1:01:17whatever subway makes or sandwiches out
1:01:19of goes through your
1:01:23to hurry system
1:01:24doctor
1:01:26you were asked some questions
1:01:27on redirect by
1:01:29uh mr chesnaught regarding
1:01:32the confidence of witnesses in their
1:01:34memories did you recall
1:01:36a couple of questions that he asked you
1:01:38would you agree
1:01:39that there is a correlation in the
1:01:41studies between the confidence of a
1:01:45witness's memory
1:01:47and the accuracy
1:01:49under many conditions there is yes
1:01:54i also want to ask you you were asked a
1:01:56series of questions
1:01:58by mr chesnov regarding
1:02:01how your work has been applied
1:02:03to lineups do you recall those questions
1:02:09oh i answered about lineups yes yes yep
1:02:12you would agree doctor there's no lineup
1:02:14issue whatsoever in this case right
1:02:17correct
1:02:19and would you agree that any testimony
1:02:21you're giving about
1:02:23either eyewitness identification
1:02:25any statements you've made about any
1:02:27statements about lineups
1:02:29they are completely irrelevant to any of
1:02:32the issues presented here right
1:02:35there is no line up in this issue but
1:02:37they're memory issues
1:02:39and they sometimes apply to all kinds of
1:02:42memory for different kinds of material
1:02:44right so let me again please listen to
1:02:46my question is there in any way an
1:02:49eyewitness identification issue in this
1:02:50case that you're aware of
1:02:56well there may be a voice identification
1:02:59issue
1:03:02you were asked questions and you've
1:03:04talked about
1:03:06in your research in your testimony
1:03:08regarding some of the problems with
1:03:10eyewitness identification correct
1:03:13yes is let me ask again are you aware
1:03:16doctor of an eyewitness identification
1:03:18issue in this case
1:03:20no i'm not
1:03:22are you aware
1:03:24of an issue involving a lineup in this
1:03:26case
1:03:28no
1:03:29by the way
1:03:30did the defense in going over
1:03:33when they retain you
1:03:35did they ever say to you
1:03:37hey doctor
1:03:38our position in this case
1:03:41is
1:03:42either
1:03:43a
1:03:44the witnesses
1:03:46are lying or b
1:03:49the witnesses are honest but mistaken or
1:03:52see the witnesses are neither lying nor
1:03:55mistaken but that the original declarant
1:03:58was lying did they ever
1:04:00discuss with you or clarify with you hey
1:04:03what is their position
1:04:06no i don't recall
1:04:09that kind of discussion
1:04:11as you sit here today
1:04:13then
1:04:14you really don't have any idea
1:04:16with respect to this case
1:04:20which of the
1:04:21positions they're even going with in
1:04:23other words
1:04:24whether it's witnesses are lying whether
1:04:27it's the witnesses are being honest but
1:04:29they're mistaken
1:04:31or whether it's no you know what they're
1:04:32not lying or mistaken it was the
1:04:35original source that was lying you don't
1:04:37know which of those three is even
1:04:40their position is that right
1:04:43well i could
1:04:44make an educated speculation about that
1:04:47that that there's at least some concern
1:04:49that there may be a
1:04:51false memory or false belief in this
1:04:53case otherwise because that's what my
1:04:55work
1:04:56is really all about but that's kind of
1:04:58another way of saying that unless their
1:05:00position is number two
1:05:02that the witnesses are
1:05:05mistaken but not lying that's the only
1:05:08one of those possibilities that you're
1:05:10really
1:05:11equipped to testify about objection
1:05:13you're in there the first relevance
1:05:15oh that's wrong
1:05:17it's also
1:05:20yeah i'll sustain it
1:05:26doctor
1:05:27you were asked some hypotheticals by mr
1:05:30chesnov
1:05:31is that correct
1:05:33last week
1:05:35last week and today during your redirect
1:05:37you were asked in hypothesis by mr
1:05:38chestnut do you recall that yes
1:05:41as you sit here is it fair to say
1:05:43that rather than assessing whether or
1:05:45not those hypotheticals
1:05:48actually relate to what happened in this
1:05:50case you are assuming that the
1:05:52hypotheticals that he is giving you
1:05:56that they are supported by facts and
1:05:58then you are simply answering assuming
1:06:00those facts are true is that right
1:06:02yes i'm answering assuming they're
1:06:05assuming that the hypothetical is what
1:06:07i'm responding to yes and you would
1:06:09agree that if it turns out that the
1:06:11hypothetical facts
1:06:13that mr chesnop is giving you if those
1:06:14hypothetical facts are inaccurate
1:06:17then that certainly affects
1:06:19any conclusion that you draw mr chesnov
1:06:22is nodding
1:06:23no as i'm asking my question and that is
1:06:26uh i apologize
1:06:29well
1:06:30i'm sorry i'm not sure if he's coaching
1:06:32the witness or reacting to your question
1:06:34well
1:06:35but i'm not worried about number one
1:06:37okay i think at this point in time
1:06:39you're honored to suggest
1:06:40that i would coach
1:06:42dr lofus please be seated it's no
1:06:44argument here it's it's uh it doesn't
1:06:46matter don't don't shake don't shake
1:06:48your head it seems inadvertent yeah so
1:06:50you go back to your question please
1:06:52doctor if you can so let me again so
1:06:54what i'm asking you is would you agree
1:06:56that if in
1:06:58fact the facts that mr chesnov gave you
1:07:02to assume to be true
1:07:04if those facts are not true you would
1:07:06agree
1:07:07that your conclusions
1:07:09based on those facts
1:07:11would have far
1:07:13less relevance
1:07:14than if the facts were true
1:07:17my response was to the hypothetical and
1:07:19it assumes they're true period
1:07:22okay so so now if you can if you can
1:07:24answer the question i just asked let me
1:07:25say it again
1:07:26given that what you've just said you
1:07:28would agree then that if the facts
1:07:30aren't true then your answers that
1:07:32assume the facts to be true
1:07:35would have less value
1:07:37than if the facts he were giving you
1:07:39were true correct
1:07:43i responded based on what the science
1:07:45would say about the hypothetical
1:07:48if you want to change the hypothetical
1:07:51maybe the science
1:07:53would not apply to it
1:07:55doctor so listen to my question again
1:07:57please what i'm asking you is
1:07:59trying to make it as simple as i can
1:08:02mr chesnov asks you to assume certain
1:08:04facts to be true you've said you
1:08:06understand that correct yes
1:08:08you then gave opinions based on those
1:08:10facts being true correct yes
1:08:13if those facts were not true were not
1:08:16supported by the evidence you would have
1:08:18to agree that your conclusions your
1:08:21response
1:08:23to those facts which are not true would
1:08:25have less value
1:08:27if any than if those facts were true
1:08:29agreed well i wouldn't put it that way
1:08:32but i possibly i would agree with it
1:08:34well okay how would you put it you won't
1:08:36let me put it the way i want to put it
1:08:38i'm asking please put i want you to
1:08:40explain how possibly that might be true
1:08:44i responded with what the science would
1:08:46say about a hypothetical that was
1:08:48presented to me
1:08:51if the jury wants to decide that the
1:08:52hypothetical
1:08:54doesn't fit
1:08:55then they can
1:08:57they can ignore the application of the
1:08:59science to it but my science still
1:09:02applies to that hypothetical so dr again
1:09:05though and
1:09:07please listen to my question right
1:09:09question answered no it's not asked an
1:09:12answer no
1:09:13try again doctor so please listen to my
1:09:16question i really need an answer your
1:09:17honor if you can strike but please
1:09:19listen to my question part i mean
1:09:21yeah yes it's it's uh it's not it's not
1:09:24necessary you're on the nominee and i
1:09:26would ask the court to instruct the
1:09:27witness what else can i do
1:09:28ask the question if you don't get the
1:09:30answer move to strike it or that it's
1:09:32non-responsive ask another question you
1:09:34may ask you may
1:09:36communicate the idea you don't think the
1:09:38witness is answering the question by
1:09:40asking it again and again but i will uh
1:09:42you don't need to tell the witness
1:09:44anything doctor
1:09:47if
1:09:48you are giving a response
1:09:51and you are assuming assuming that the
1:09:53facts that you are using to give that
1:09:56response are true
1:09:58and those facts turn out not to be true
1:10:01will you concede
1:10:03that your response
1:10:05would have less value
1:10:08because you are considering in your
1:10:10response that the facts are true yes
1:10:14thank you doctor
1:10:18you were asked
1:10:20you discussed excuse me you mentioned
1:10:22that you've given lectures and you
1:10:23mentioned a 1983
1:10:26lecture in arizona to prosecutors is
1:10:28that correct it might have been 84 right
1:10:31it was after 83. right it's almost 40
1:10:33years ago correct
1:10:37well you do the math
1:10:41okay uh i guess i'd be 37 years ago
1:10:44would you agree
1:10:49yes
1:10:50my question to you would be doctor you
1:10:51would agree that
1:10:54your lecturing career much like your
1:10:57testifying career
1:10:58is in no way even close to equal you
1:11:01primarily
1:11:03testify almost exclusively for the
1:11:04defense and you primarily lecture
1:11:08not to the prosecution but to the
1:11:09defense agreed
1:11:12certainly i would say more lectures to
1:11:15defense groups yes
1:11:17and more lectures defense groups by an
1:11:19overwhelming
1:11:20margin correct
1:11:24i i would have to go
1:11:27check
1:11:28well you have your resume if you would
1:11:29like a moment to review it to refresh
1:11:31your recollection go ahead
1:11:49i would say more
1:11:50certainly more often to defense they're
1:11:53there are a number of situations where
1:11:55i've talked to prosecutors
1:11:57and defense attorneys
1:11:59together at northwestern university year
1:12:03after year after year but it may still
1:12:06not add up to the number of times that
1:12:09i've talked to
1:12:11or been invited to lecture to defense
1:12:14groups or public public defenders for
1:12:16example in that northwestern lecture
1:12:18series that's related to their innocence
1:12:20project correct
1:12:23no i was
1:12:26every year for many years a program for
1:12:29prosecutors and defense attorneys
1:12:32doctor
1:12:33you testified
1:12:35that mr chesnov asked you and you
1:12:37mentioned the innocence project you
1:12:39talked about 350 cases you talked about
1:12:42this in your original direct you talked
1:12:45about it in your redirect do you recall
1:12:46that testimony yes and you would agree
1:12:49doctor
1:12:50that the
1:12:52extreme high majority of those cases
1:12:56the way that the innocence was
1:12:58demonstrated
1:13:00was through dna correct
1:13:03i believe in that project they're all
1:13:06maybe virtually all dna exonerations yes
1:13:08and i want to make sure you didn't do
1:13:10any of the testing yourself the dna in
1:13:12those cases right correct
1:13:15so my question to you is do you recall
1:13:17when i was asking you questions about
1:13:20tim hennis and the dna in his case
1:13:22and you were very skeptical you
1:13:24mentioned it could have been
1:13:25contaminated you mentioned i didn't see
1:13:28the results my question is doctor
1:13:31how come you are so skeptical
1:13:33about the dna and tim hennis but yet
1:13:36when you had no involvement in any of
1:13:38these 350 dna exonerations you treat it
1:13:41as if it is fact
1:13:43why is that
1:13:45i have read a fair amount of scholarship
1:13:47on the dna exonerations in the innocence
1:13:50project cases
1:13:53in the case of tim hennis
1:13:55i had people
1:13:57writing to me concerned about the
1:13:59prospect of contamination that's all
1:14:02i know there are concerns amongst people
1:14:05who were involved and doctor considering
1:14:07your knowledge of dna which you just
1:14:09indicated that you've read up and you're
1:14:11aware of those exonerations
1:14:13doctor are you aware
1:14:15of how it is that a person's semen which
1:14:18would have to come from the person
1:14:20can turn up
1:14:22how does semen get created out of
1:14:25nothing objection your honor i'm going
1:14:27to sustain it that's that's misleading
1:14:31doctor this is my last area you
1:14:33mentioned that everyone has a right to
1:14:36be
1:14:36presumed innocent you talked about being
1:14:39willing to step in do you recall that
1:14:40testimony today a few minutes ago
1:14:42without your work
1:14:45doctor
1:14:47mr chestnut also asked you well is the
1:14:49work that you do
1:14:51getting paid your 700 an hour 600 no
1:14:54it's now seven mr chestnut we paid six
1:14:58uh doesn't sound like an objection your
1:15:00honor no i know please no happily
1:15:03your current rate today is 700 an hour
1:15:05correct doctor
1:15:07yes okay so not not in this case
1:15:10it was 600 now it's 700
1:15:13correct not not in this case
1:15:16i understand going forward when you do
1:15:18work it is 700 an hour is that right
1:15:21yes so
1:15:23you're also making you said somewhere in
1:15:26the area of
1:15:27260 270 000 a year from your
1:15:30professorship in irvine is that correct
1:15:33i gained a number that was approximately
1:15:35that but not that go ahead
1:15:37you so you're okay but is it
1:15:39approximately that yes and would you
1:15:42agree doctor
1:15:43that
1:15:44the idea
1:15:46that
1:15:47you need to charge
1:15:49700 an hour
1:15:52in order to
1:15:54be able to work
1:15:56with indigent defendants
1:15:58is that is that your testimony i no
1:16:00that's not my testimony in fact doctor
1:16:03when you're charging 700 an hour to
1:16:05harvey weinstein or bill cosby
1:16:08or robert durst
1:16:10you're still getting your salary from uc
1:16:12irvine is facts not in the avenue
1:16:14assistant
1:16:16you know the subscribe yes do you want
1:16:18me to cover fit she's already testified
1:16:19i i sustain the energy mr lewin i'll
1:16:23cover it doctor isn't it true that you
1:16:24were paid your your fee was
1:16:26approximately six to seven hundred
1:16:28dollars an hour with bill cosby
1:16:32died i believe it i was charging 600 an
1:16:37hour when i consulted on that case
1:16:40and you testified previously in the
1:16:42weinstein
1:16:43case that you were receiving 600 per
1:16:45hour is that correct
1:16:47well that was the fee that i quoted but
1:16:49i made the arrangement that i discussed
1:16:51for the new york case and you've said
1:16:53that you're receiving 600 per hour in
1:16:56this case correct
1:16:58well i think uh given your
1:17:00antics it's probably down to 450 dollars
1:17:04an hour now
1:17:05gosh i hope you'll be able to get by
1:17:07i'll try move to strike
1:17:10never mind that's okay so doctor let it
1:17:13stay
1:17:15the antics i'd like stricken as well
1:17:17your honor i'm striking the whole
1:17:19dialogue okay so doctor
1:17:22let's just start over my question is
1:17:24this
1:17:26if you are making six to seven hundred
1:17:28dollars an hour
1:17:30testifying
1:17:31or working on cases for people like mr
1:17:34durst and mr weinstein and mr cosby is
1:17:38it really your testimony that you need
1:17:40to charge that
1:17:42to be able to work on cases involving
1:17:45the indigent i never i never said that
1:17:47that's not my testimony in fact doctor
1:17:50you're charging that money because as
1:17:52you've said
1:17:54that's what witnesses get
1:17:56in your area at least on the high end
1:17:59and that you believe that
1:18:01in the end that's what you're worth
1:18:03right
1:18:05what i testified about is that i have
1:18:08discovered that many experts who are
1:18:11younger than me and much less
1:18:13experienced are charging quite a bit
1:18:16more even one recently charging fifteen
1:18:19hundred dollars an hour
1:18:21so doctor the question though is i just
1:18:23wanna make sure that
1:18:26we're getting the facts out here it's
1:18:28not your position
1:18:30as mr just now suggest and redirect that
1:18:32you have to take these high paying cases
1:18:36to supplement the other work you do is
1:18:39that correct
1:18:42that that is not my testimony
1:18:45in the end
1:18:46doctor
1:18:48you're collecting your salaries from uci
1:18:50and you're collecting your expert
1:18:51witness fees because
1:18:53this is america
1:18:54and we're a capitalist country and you
1:18:57can charge what you want and people will
1:18:59pay it that's what you get correct
1:19:03yes
1:19:04no further questions
1:19:06anything else i do but i'm not letting
1:19:08them get up again so no
1:19:10well
1:19:11so
1:19:13there's got to be a consistency of rules
1:19:15here i mean if
1:19:16i don't mind seated okay it's uh
1:19:20let's jump off i have no further
1:19:22questions thank you
1:19:26may this witness be excused
1:19:29i should say
1:19:30yes but your honor um dr loftus has
1:19:33asked if she could remain
1:19:36okay i hope it's off the clock but i
1:19:38don't have a i don't have an issue
1:19:44i'm probably not as much your client yes
1:19:46but she may be
1:19:47excused from test further testimony we
1:19:49don't have any issue with her remaining
1:19:51okay so you are excused you may remain
1:19:53in the courtroom if you lie thank you
1:19:55your honor thank you dr law
1:20:03next witness
1:20:06your honor i think i
1:20:08need to take a brief break uh before it
1:20:12depends who the next witness is yes
1:20:14oh okay well the next witness will be mr
1:20:16durst your honor
1:20:18all right um
1:20:21you believe we need a break we only need
1:20:23to change the seating is there something
1:20:25else i need to do
1:20:27the seating
1:20:29and some additional issues with that
1:20:31just to make sure that
1:20:33yes that's right logistics right we've
1:20:35got to get the um
1:20:37set up a desk with the uh couple
1:20:40logistical things in the room so we're
1:20:42going to take our take a break i think
1:20:45we can do 10 minutes for right now i
1:20:47think that's enough
1:20:4815.
1:20:50all right deputy washington advisors 15
1:20:53and i follow empty what then suggestions
1:20:56so the
1:20:5715-minute break ladies and gentlemen
1:21:00if you're not converse among yourselves
1:21:02or with anyone else on any subject
1:21:03connected with this case do not form or
1:21:05express any opinion
1:22:02all right
1:22:04you can hold it it comes off of a stand
1:22:06so you want this hold it loose
1:22:11i can't
1:22:13there's some concern about mr dirks
1:22:14being audible so uh we'll
1:22:17he'll be able to use that amplifier
1:22:19amplified microphone can the court
1:22:22inquire of the jury if they've been thus
1:22:24far able to hear them
1:22:25uh they're all they're nodding except
1:22:27the farthest juror away
1:22:29is having some trouble hearing so we'll
1:22:32have uh we will have him use the
1:22:34microphone
1:22:44following your mother's death
1:22:48did you blame your father
1:22:50yes
1:22:52did you have
1:22:54um
1:22:55therapy and treatment objection
1:22:57relevance sustained prior motion sustain
1:23:01did you start running away
1:23:04same objection your honor yeah overall
1:23:07seven-year-old bobby doers
1:23:10knew
1:23:11that it was my father's fault
1:23:14bobby durst did not know how or why or
1:23:18anything like that
1:23:20but bobby burns knew
1:23:23that his father had killed his mother
1:23:27i started running away
1:23:30every couple of weeks
1:23:32oh the neighborhood we lived in
1:23:35there was nothing that was not a book
1:23:37mansion
1:23:39giant houses
1:23:41all had outdoor garages
1:23:44i quickly learned
1:23:47which houses
1:23:48left their garage doors open
1:23:52i would go into a garage
1:23:55notion this strike at this point as
1:23:57non-responsive
1:24:02we'll stop there i don't want a whole
1:24:04narrative about this question and
1:24:06answers so that each question may be
1:24:07evaluated
1:24:09um
1:24:10perhaps mr durst can hold that
1:24:12microphone uh any grout no okay you
1:24:16can't hold the mic from perhaps we can
1:24:18make it a little closer to him or mr
1:24:20durst if you will talk right into that
1:24:22microphone the most important thing is
1:24:24that everybody hear you how about i take
1:24:26off her mask
1:24:30let's see
1:24:32let's try let's try to try the
1:24:33microphone try talking into the
1:24:35microphone and if necessary
1:24:39he said try talking into the microphone
1:24:42first and if that doesn't work you can
1:24:44take off the mask
1:24:47maybe maybe
1:24:49okay
1:24:51am i answering a question
1:24:53no not yet
1:24:55next question you mentioned that you
1:24:57started running
1:24:59why don't you let john tell you what
1:25:01questions he wants me to answer
1:25:05i'd rather not
1:25:09i'm available to
1:25:10talk you'll have your chance
1:25:14you mentioned you started running away
1:25:18what were you running away from
1:25:21the house i hated the house
1:25:24tommy durst testified
1:25:26how much i hated the house
1:25:29and how i kept begging my father
1:25:32to move
1:25:35and he never sold the house where his
1:25:37wife died
1:25:43all right overruled uh you may must
1:25:46object contemporaneously for me to
1:25:48sustain it your honor does the court
1:25:50want me to interrupt him i'm trying to
1:25:52you may listen to the question if the
1:25:54question is objectionable you may pose
1:25:56an objection i won't rule on the
1:25:57objection we'll proceed in that way you
1:25:59know what does the court want me to do
1:26:01when mr garrett asks a non-objectionable
1:26:03question but then it just
1:26:05continues and goes into something else
1:26:07i'm trying to give the witness the
1:26:08respect we may object to a narrative
1:26:11okay
1:26:13[Music]
1:26:17so bob
1:26:18what that means is
1:26:20let me ask questions
1:26:22don't go into a long narrative
1:26:25and i'll try to interrupt it with
1:26:26questions you understand
1:26:34hard to
1:26:38you may listen to the question and you
1:26:40may answer only the question
1:26:45you may proceed mr deguera
1:26:50you mentioned that you ran away you
1:26:51mentioned that uh there were many houses
1:26:54that had garages that you knew
1:26:57you could hide in
1:26:58what were you running away
1:27:01from my house my mother
1:27:08the answer may stand
1:27:10i'm not sure that uh it was
1:27:12heard your honor maybe he said his
1:27:14mother died
1:27:18no next question
1:27:25i'm sorry
1:27:32did you run away from camp
1:27:35just your relatives overall
1:27:39i ran away from everything
1:27:42my father kept sending me to see
1:27:44psychiatrists
1:27:47and all the same kind
1:27:50most of strike is not responsible i'll
1:27:51strike the party about psychiatrists did
1:27:54you go to see psychiatrists
1:27:57motion to strike is irrelevant
1:28:06yes i saw many psychiatrists i said okay
1:28:10let's pause pause for a second so a
1:28:13couple things if i sustain an objection
1:28:16you may not answer mr durst in that case
1:28:18i did sustain the objection that means
1:28:20you could not answer the juries to
1:28:22disregard the answer and disregard the
1:28:24question a juror raised his hand has to
1:28:27do with hearing or seeing here can you
1:28:29make sure
1:28:30it doesn't sound like it
1:28:32all right um
1:28:34let's let's check that
1:28:36it's not ah when you press the top queen
1:28:41that's the on button a green light will
1:28:45illuminate
1:28:47excellent
1:28:51let's try again with
1:28:54a mic that has been turned on
1:28:57gold star for number two
1:28:59thank you
1:29:06did you run away from school
1:29:12i ran away from school
1:29:15i ran away from every place they took me
1:29:19eventually
1:29:21oh
1:29:22right yes i ran away from school
1:29:31where did you go to school
1:29:34i went this far as you know
1:29:37elementary fox
1:29:39fox meadow elementary school
1:29:42and scoresdale high school did you
1:29:45graduate from high school
1:29:47yes i
1:29:50barely graduated from high school
1:29:53because i never spent any time there
1:30:01did you go to
1:30:04college went to lehigh university
1:30:08l e h i g h
1:30:11where is lehigh university
1:30:13located there from pennsylvania
1:30:16let me finish my question in bethlehem
1:30:19pennsylvania
1:30:21yes
1:30:22is that near where you were arrested
1:30:25after morris black died
1:30:31exactly where i was arrested i was
1:30:34arrested in bethlehem pennsylvania
1:30:38we'll get to that
1:30:41not yet
1:30:47how did you do in lehi did you graduate
1:30:51i managed to graduate yes
1:30:55after uh
1:30:57lehigh
1:31:00what was going on in in the country was
1:31:03that during the time of the v of the
1:31:05vietnam war
1:31:07yes
1:31:10and
1:31:11were you draft eligible
1:31:22i was available but for whatever the
1:31:24reason is
1:31:27probably because i had seen so many
1:31:29tires objection relevance draft porn
1:31:32never calls me
1:31:34all right the draft board never called
1:31:36you
1:31:37most distracted i'll strike it
1:31:38non-responsive did the draft board ever
1:31:40call you no
1:31:41ejection relevance
1:31:43sustain
1:31:45well did you go into the service
1:31:48objection relevant sustain well this is
1:31:50his background your honor yes
1:31:56what did you do
1:31:59i don't know what the question is what
1:32:01did you do after lehigh did you go into
1:32:03the service did you go into no i went to
1:32:06ucla
1:32:08how did you get into ucla
1:32:14i applied to
1:32:17i
1:32:18i applied to half a dozen graduate
1:32:20schools
1:32:22and i was accepted and some of them
1:32:25one of them was ucla
1:32:28what sort of graduate courses were were
1:32:31you looking to take objection relevance
1:32:34i was in the phd economics program
1:32:38it is economics
1:32:40something that was of interest to you at
1:32:42the time
1:32:49sort of i guess
1:32:51so why did you choose ucla
1:32:57it seemed like it should
1:33:00los angeles hollywood movies it sounded
1:33:04like fun
1:33:06and was it fun yes
1:33:14tell the jury about how you met susan
1:33:17berman
1:33:20well
1:33:21after my first year at ucla
1:33:241966.
1:33:28friends of mine from new york
1:33:31stuart altman and his younger brother
1:33:33eric
1:33:35came out and visited me
1:33:39the beta theta pi fraternity house
1:33:43in westwood
1:33:45had a big sign out front
1:33:48that said rooms for rent
1:33:52so the three of us rented a big room for
1:33:55the summer
1:33:58this
1:34:00were you a member of beta theta pie or
1:34:02was did you just rent a room from them
1:34:05i had nothing to do with betta santa pie
1:34:08just rented the room
1:34:13okay go ahead how did you meet susan
1:34:15berman
1:34:19so one night
1:34:22what we did all summer long
1:34:26was to hang out the dykstra pool
1:34:28[Music]
1:34:30just west of ucla's main campus
1:34:35south of sunset
1:34:38i guess everybody knows that
1:34:40there are a bunch of dormitories
1:34:43at a big recreation center
1:34:47first storm that was built
1:34:49was called dykstra
1:34:52d-y-k
1:34:54s-t-r-a
1:34:57and we spent the summer by the pool
1:35:01trying to pick up girls
1:35:04one night i got back to the fraternity
1:35:07house
1:35:09around nine or ten
1:35:12and stored allman introduced me
1:35:15to the girl that he had picked up that
1:35:18afternoon
1:35:20her name was susan berman
1:35:24i readily found out
1:35:27that both her parents were dead
1:35:30and that her father
1:35:33had owned hotels
1:35:35in las vegas
1:35:38and had something to do with the mob
1:35:43they stop you
1:35:47when you first met susan berman
1:35:51did you and she hit it off
1:35:57yes
1:35:59explain that to the jury
1:36:02oh
1:36:04the only thing stuart orton was
1:36:06interested in
1:36:08was the fact that susan barman
1:36:12had decided
1:36:14that she was going to keep it
1:36:16until she got married
1:36:19so steward wandered off someplace
1:36:23and susan and i
1:36:25stayed up all night and talked
1:36:29steven silverman
1:36:31who testified
1:36:33said that when you have a conversation
1:36:36with susan berman
1:36:38you listened
1:36:40or whatever it was
1:36:43that night
1:36:44i was relatively talkative
1:36:48and we spent the whole night talking
1:36:52so what did you
1:36:55uh what did you find in common
1:36:58with you and susan
1:36:59well both of us were raised
1:37:02by other
1:37:04others than our parents
1:37:07her parents were both dead
1:37:09her father died when she was seven
1:37:13her mother died when she was 12.
1:37:16my father
1:37:18my mother died when i was seven
1:37:22my father couldn't handle me
1:37:25and i kept running away
1:37:28and he kept sending me to see
1:37:29psychiatrists
1:37:32a psychiatrist objection motion to
1:37:34strike is non-responsive also it's a
1:37:36narrative
1:37:37all right we are at a narrative and
1:37:40let's see just a moment
1:37:43the psychiatrist stuff i'm asking to be
1:37:45stricken well i will i'm looking at
1:37:48anything else no i don't think so we'll
1:37:50strike really the psychiatrist part
1:37:52arrest may stand your honor could mr
1:37:54durst be instructed not to bring up
1:37:56anything about psychiatrists unless he's
1:37:58specifically asked because it's coming
1:38:01up frequently
1:38:02yeah listen to the question answer only
1:38:04the question
1:38:07was was there a period of time
1:38:09uh in your youth where you were sent to
1:38:12see psychiatrists on a regular basis
1:38:15to sustain
1:38:18[Music]
1:38:20sustained mr mcgarrin
1:38:24i sustain this objection i just stopped
1:38:26him your honor i know but you asked the
1:38:28same question and only to stop him don't
1:38:30do that please ask questions don't ask
1:38:33questions to which an injection will be
1:38:35sustained and i've already made clear
1:38:37what will be sustained
1:38:44was your father an absentee father
1:38:48objection relevance sustained
1:38:56our
1:38:58if i sustain an objection do not answer
1:39:00the question
1:39:02next question please
1:39:07so
1:39:10how did you feel that you and susan had
1:39:12things in common
1:39:16we were both rich
1:39:18susan had a trust fund
1:39:21to pay her twenty five hundred dollars a
1:39:24month
1:39:26susan had a mercedes-benz sl
1:39:31that first night we met
1:39:34and it got to me mourning
1:39:36she took me out to her car
1:39:39and we drove to ship's restaurant
1:39:43on westwood
1:39:45in westwood
1:39:48and we pretty much talked
1:39:51until it was lunchtime
1:39:55all right so
1:39:56you meet susan berman
1:39:59you hit it off with her immediately
1:40:01you stay up all night talking you go to
1:40:03ship's restaurant
1:40:06the next day did your friendship with
1:40:09susan continue
1:40:15yes we stayed friends
1:40:18the next year
1:40:20i applied
1:40:22to claremont graduate school
1:40:25all right now where is claremont
1:40:27graduate school
1:40:28it's in claremont california it's about
1:40:32an hour and 15 minutes
1:40:34east of los angeles
1:40:38now was this
1:40:40during your
1:40:43school at ucla did you interrupt your
1:40:46school at ucla
1:40:48i just left ucla
1:40:51for the one year i went to claremont
1:40:53graduate school
1:40:55and i went back to ucla
1:40:58in the meantime what did susan do
1:41:02susan rise awaited from ucla
1:41:05and she applied to
1:41:08berkeley's graduate school in journalism
1:41:12where she was accepted
1:41:15at the time
1:41:16i believe
1:41:18berkeley's journalism program
1:41:22was considered the best in the west
1:41:25i think it still is
1:41:28at least
1:41:29all right so
1:41:30susan went to berkeley
1:41:33in northern california right
1:41:35right and you went to claremont graduate
1:41:38school
1:41:40and then i went back to ucla all right
1:41:43so
1:41:44after
1:41:45susan moved to
1:41:48northern california to attend berkeley
1:41:51what did you do
1:41:53we visited each other frequently
1:41:58bob were you and susan ever lovers no no
1:42:03[Music]
1:42:04how would you
1:42:05characterize your friendship
1:42:07as friends
1:42:14all right in the next few years what
1:42:16happened as
1:42:18far as you and susan
1:42:20in 1968
1:42:23i applied to become a vista
1:42:26a volunteer and service to america
1:42:31let me stop you there
1:42:32what gave you the idea to
1:42:35become a vista volunteer
1:42:39they had a
1:42:40table at ucla
1:42:46with information about this film
1:42:49i walked by and i liked it
1:42:53and i applied to become a visitor
1:42:56and
1:42:59where was
1:43:00susan berman
1:43:02at that time
1:43:03susan
1:43:05had become
1:43:08his first she graduated
1:43:13from
1:43:14journalism school
1:43:17about the same time as i went into this
1:43:19stuff
1:43:22she got a job with the san francisco
1:43:24chronicle
1:43:28and after one year
1:43:31she went to work
1:43:33for something that was called
1:43:35city magazine
1:43:38is that a local publication in san
1:43:40francisco yes
1:43:43it was very popular but it did not last
1:43:46very long
1:43:48but susan
1:43:50became a star
1:43:52she wrote an article
1:43:54a cover article
1:43:57called
1:43:58why i can't get laid in san francisco
1:44:04and this made the front page of the
1:44:07magazine
1:44:09and the new san francisco chronicle
1:44:13picked it up on their front page too
1:44:16with a big picture of susan
1:44:20were you proud of her success
1:44:23well
1:44:25i sort of thought
1:44:27it was the wrong thing for her career
1:44:31but she liked it and she got lots of job
1:44:33opportunities from it
1:44:36in the meantime what were you doing
1:44:39as a vista volunteer
1:44:43well being a vista volunteer was
1:44:45interesting
1:44:47they did they sent me the watts
1:44:51and i lived in watts
1:44:54and i worked for an agency
1:44:58i get some water
1:45:00yes
1:45:17i've got one
1:45:20[Music]
1:45:43you
1:46:07you mentioned
1:46:09you mentioned they sent you to watts
1:46:13what year was this
1:46:151969.
1:46:18was this
1:46:21what was the situation
1:46:23in watts during that time projection
1:46:26relevance mistake
1:46:29what was vista uh doing there objection
1:46:32relevance what did you do
1:46:34objection relevance
1:46:36overall
1:46:44they set up
1:46:46my program
1:46:47all of us were in some way related to
1:46:50business
1:46:52and we were supposed to help
1:46:55the people in business in watts
1:46:59mostly if you're getting bank loans
1:47:01[Music]
1:47:03small business administration 352 as
1:47:06well
1:47:09overall
1:47:10move on though
1:47:12you're on over here yes so i'm not sure
1:47:14that jury heard the answer because he
1:47:16was speaking over him
1:47:17[Music]
1:47:19everybody hear the answer
1:47:21they're nodding i heard it everybody
1:47:23heard it thank you
1:47:24go ahead is was
1:47:27vista more or less a domestic peace
1:47:30corps
1:47:35yes
1:47:37and so how long were you associated with
1:47:39vista and then what
1:47:42for a year
1:47:45what did you physically do
1:47:47as a vista volunteer
1:47:50i met with small business people in
1:47:53watts
1:47:55and i helped them fill out
1:47:57small business administration
1:47:59applications
1:48:02in some cases
1:48:04i co-signed loans objection relevance
1:48:08rule
1:48:10you might continue
1:48:14please no
1:48:15but the
1:48:17narrative ends next question
1:48:20so
1:48:22helping
1:48:24small businesses
1:48:26get loans for business i presume is that
1:48:29right
1:48:34yeah
1:48:35and what else did you do
1:48:38that's what i did
1:48:40all right
1:48:41how long were you in that program
1:48:44a year
1:48:45and then what did you do
1:48:48well i read this that at the time
1:48:51there was something called
1:48:54a whole earth review
1:48:57hello a
1:48:59hippie book
1:49:01magazine
1:49:04have i read about
1:49:07an article
1:49:09about people
1:49:11opening health food stores
1:49:15mostly in new england
1:49:19so i got the idea
1:49:22that i would go to new england
1:49:25and open a health food store
1:49:29really a health food
1:49:31general store
1:49:33all right i'll ask you about that in a
1:49:35moment
1:49:36but did you
1:49:38return to ucla before you went to new
1:49:40england no i just left so you did not
1:49:44graduate from did not get a degree no
1:49:47okay
1:49:50all right um
1:49:51so you got the idea that you wanted to
1:49:54have a health food store but more or
1:49:57less a general store
1:49:59in new england
1:50:01is that right yeah
1:50:03what did you do
1:50:04in order to accomplish that
1:50:07well my father
1:50:10owned a big house
1:50:13an hour and a half north of new york
1:50:16city
1:50:18it was a typical rich person's house
1:50:21on 11 acres
1:50:24a glass house on top of a hill
1:50:28with a pool
1:50:30and a tennis court
1:50:34so i called up dad
1:50:36and asked him
1:50:38it was alright
1:50:40if i moved into the cortona house
1:50:44k-a-t-o-n-a-h
1:50:48they had had bought it
1:50:50because everybody
1:50:53felt
1:50:54he should not have to stay
1:50:57in the city during the weekends
1:51:00the thing what it was
1:51:02is that dad loved the city
1:51:06and having this house
1:51:09was more of a problem
1:51:11than a solution
1:51:14so
1:51:16what was your plan about the katona
1:51:18house that your father owned and was not
1:51:21using
1:51:23i just moved into it
1:51:26dad wanted me to go into the
1:51:29family business
1:51:32which is called the durst organization
1:51:35and at that time
1:51:38was one of probably your top 10
1:51:41owners of office space
1:51:44in manhattan
1:51:47did you want to go into the durst
1:51:49organization business no
1:51:53uh i want to ask a little bit about the
1:51:55history
1:51:56of the durst organization there's been
1:52:01some evidence that
1:52:03it was uh
1:52:06a tradition for the oldest member
1:52:09of the family to take over the business
1:52:12how many
1:52:14um
1:52:17siblings did seymour durst have
1:52:26seen what their
1:52:28tours had four siblings
1:52:32who started the durst organization my
1:52:35grandfather joseph durst
1:52:38joseph and rose durst
1:52:41had five
1:52:42children from oldest to youngest
1:52:46they were edwin nursed
1:52:50almaders askin
1:52:53seymour durst my father
1:52:57durst
1:52:58and david durst
1:53:02so
1:53:03was
1:53:05if it had been
1:53:07the tradition for the oldest sibling to
1:53:11take over
1:53:12that would not have been seymour was was
1:53:15it
1:53:16no
1:53:17it was never like that
1:53:19what was it like
1:53:22well edwin thorns just didn't like it
1:53:26so i wasn't there but
1:53:29seemingly from the very beginning
1:53:31he did not like new york city
1:53:35and he did not like the real estate
1:53:37business
1:53:40my grandfather
1:53:42gave up trying to get edwin durst
1:53:46from the business
1:53:48so the next oldest one was my father
1:53:52seymour's
1:53:54did seymour run the business after your
1:53:56grandfather
1:53:58gave it up
1:53:59yes all right
1:54:01and basically what
1:54:04wasn't is
1:54:05this
1:54:06durst organization business in new york
1:54:10in new york city
1:54:13particularly in manhattan
1:54:15all the properties are very small
1:54:19so if you're going to build a big
1:54:21building
1:54:22you have to buy up a whole bunch of
1:54:24little properties
1:54:27and get the tenants out
1:54:29new york city has very strong rent
1:54:32control laws
1:54:35i think a lot stronger than out here
1:54:39once a tenant
1:54:40is in a residential facility
1:54:43they can stay there
1:54:46until they die
1:54:48as long as they pay the rent
1:54:52so the business was buying small
1:54:55buildings
1:54:58removing the tenants
1:55:01demolishing the small buildings
1:55:05using the land for parking
1:55:08until you got enough little buildings
1:55:11together
1:55:12to build a big building
1:55:15so was that more or less the business
1:55:17plan of the durst organization
1:55:20that was it
1:55:22did you have any interest in doing that
1:55:26well that summer
1:55:28when i was 69.
1:55:32i spent you just said that summer when i
1:55:36was 69.
1:55:37are you talking about the year 1969
1:55:44i'm sorry
1:55:45i meant to say 1969.
1:55:48okay that summer go ahead
1:55:51i spent a lot of time driving around new
1:55:54england
1:55:55and looking at little towns
1:55:59trying to find a place
1:56:01where i would be comfortable
1:56:04living and running a store
1:56:08were you living at the katona house by
1:56:10then
1:56:11yes
1:56:12and dad kept leaning on me
1:56:16to come into the business
1:56:20so he could show me the business
1:56:22did you want to do that
1:56:25no what did you want to do
1:56:28i wanted to go open my store someplace
1:56:31and that was the idea that you had
1:56:34come across when you were a vista
1:56:36volunteer and you were in
1:56:39school in california
1:56:51when i finished i visited program
1:56:55i left los angeles
1:56:58and moved to new york
1:57:01vista was the past
1:57:04and so
1:57:06uh when you were driving you just
1:57:07testified you were driving around
1:57:10new england looking for a place
1:57:12for it to
1:57:14start a store was that the plan that you
1:57:16had from california
1:57:25um
1:57:27all right did you
1:57:30did you find a place
1:57:32that you thought would be good
1:57:33for your plan to have a health food
1:57:36store or a general store in new england
1:57:39yes middlebury vermont
1:57:42it's a small town
1:57:44with a very selective college
1:57:47middlebury college
1:57:50is one of the most selective small
1:57:52colleges
1:57:54in the country
1:57:58so describe
1:58:00if you will what you thought was
1:58:03uh ideal
1:58:04for your plan to have a health food
1:58:07store in a general store
1:58:12actually relevant to 352. well
1:58:23oh yes the answer the question is yes
1:58:27that's not no that wouldn't be an
1:58:29appropriate answer here let me repeat my
1:58:31question
1:58:33did you
1:58:34find that
1:58:36middlebury connecticut middlebury uh
1:58:39vermont
1:58:40was an ideal place
1:58:43for your plan for a
1:58:46health food store and
1:58:49general store
1:58:55the answer is yes
1:58:57what was it about
1:58:59that place that
1:59:01caused you to make that decision
1:59:03it was quaint i i really don't know
1:59:06there was no competition
1:59:08there were lots of towns that would have
1:59:10been great but somebody already gotten
1:59:13there
1:59:15okay so what did you find
1:59:18what were you able to do
1:59:21i leased space
1:59:254 000 square feet
1:59:28and nobody vermont
1:59:32signed a lease
1:59:34to open the store
1:59:37and did you have a place to live there
1:59:39objection 352 your honor i rented the
1:59:42downstairs of my house
1:59:46oh go ahead
1:59:47three
1:59:49three dollars a month
1:59:51eighty eight oh
1:59:54eight
1:59:55did you say eighty dollars a month
2:00:00the store rent was a hundred and thirty
2:00:02dollars a month
2:00:04the arm and rent was eighty dollars a
2:00:07month
2:00:09did you have
2:00:10sufficient income
2:00:13to pay that rent
2:00:15yes from the time i was 18
2:00:18there were family trusts
2:00:21that paid me an income
2:00:24that's what
2:00:26i answered before one of the things
2:00:29susan berman and i both had in common
2:00:33is that we both had trust funds
2:00:36set up by our parents
2:00:40okay when you find
2:00:42this uh
2:00:43store
2:00:44to rent or
2:00:46and you find a house to rent a home to
2:00:49rent
2:00:50in middlebury
2:00:52was it your plan to live in kentona or
2:00:55to live in middlebury
2:01:07[Music]
2:01:11you had been living at the katana house
2:01:14right
2:01:15yes and i left things in one of the
2:01:17bedrooms
2:01:19i would periodically
2:01:21go to new york
2:01:23and stay at the katona house
2:01:26and i went along with dad's desire
2:01:30to hire and visit the business
2:01:33i can't say i worked there i would just
2:01:36go and
2:01:38go to some meetings and things
2:01:40objectionary your dad wanted me to know
2:01:43okay
2:01:45uh we'll pause
2:01:47yes it's becoming a narrative do we have
2:01:51ordinarily one lawyer not to object are
2:01:53you passing the torch to mr bailey and
2:01:56mr lewin
2:01:57no oh
2:02:01yeah more than
2:02:06one attorney to perform a task at a time
2:02:08otherwise i got tinny doing it and uh
2:02:11yeah well that's right um
2:02:22all right
2:02:23enough fun back to work next question
2:02:28who else lived at the katona house
2:02:30when you were there
2:02:35when i got there there was nobody there
2:02:38but sometime
2:02:40that fall
2:02:43my brother douglas
2:02:47decided
2:02:49that he wanted to work in a family
2:02:51business
2:02:53and he moved into the
2:02:55same house in katana new york
2:02:59his wife
2:03:00had his two children
2:03:03what was the relationship between you
2:03:05and douglas durst
2:03:07at that time we never liked one another
2:03:11fortunately the house was very big
2:03:14and he could have his hands on it
2:03:17and i could have my end of it
2:03:20and i was hardly there anyway
2:03:23so where were you spending your time
2:03:29i was spending my time in middlebury
2:03:35just as an aside
2:03:37where was susan berman and what was she
2:03:39doing while this was going on while you
2:03:41were starting your store in middlebury
2:03:46susan had this great success
2:03:49with her cover article about not being
2:03:52able to get laid
2:03:54but she had stayed with city magazine
2:03:59and at some point
2:04:03around
2:04:041969 or 1970
2:04:08susan decided
2:04:10that she wanted to write a book
2:04:13about her life story
2:04:16of growing up in las vegas
2:04:20her father's name
2:04:22was davey berman
2:04:24who was a well-known associate
2:04:28of buzzy seagull
2:04:31bugsy siegel's right-hand man
2:04:34he was called
2:04:36all right
2:04:37so he wanted to i think we'll take a
2:04:39little uh uh break now
2:04:41we had a sort of a long break earlier
2:04:44longer than i planned but i think a
2:04:45short break for everyone in case you
2:04:47need
2:04:48just uh to rearrange ourselves so let's
2:04:50uh let's take it
2:04:52let's take 10 minutes
2:04:5415 minutes let's go to 3 45.
2:04:57do not converse among yourselves or with
2:04:59anyone else on any subject make it with
2:05:01this
2:06:06it's quite a
2:06:08narrative of kind of a poor little rich
2:06:10boy and then interposed things like and
2:06:13maybe the court didn't hear my objection
2:06:16i objected when mr durst volunteered
2:06:19that in addition to arranging loans he
2:06:22said sometimes he would give them the
2:06:24loans himself which is which which is
2:06:26clearly
2:06:28an attempt by mr durst to
2:06:31try and appear to this jury
2:06:34as if he has certain attributes that are
2:06:37clearly relevant so my issue honor and i
2:06:39want to respect the court's position
2:06:42if the court believes that all this is
2:06:43relevant and this isn't briefly true
2:06:45that i'm not going to object but
2:06:47i'm trying to understand
2:06:49how
2:06:50questions about what rent he paid
2:06:54in all good things in the late 60s how
2:06:58that's not relevant to anything that we
2:06:59put on it's not relevant to any defense
2:07:01they have and i'm concerned i'm
2:07:03secondarily concerned with the idea it
2:07:05hasn't happened for a while and mr durst
2:07:07wants to bring up his treatment by
2:07:09psychiatrists as court's aware the
2:07:11defense had ample opportunity in fact
2:07:13they said they were going to do it to
2:07:14call a mental health expert to testify
2:07:17to these things i don't know if the
2:07:18court is aware of it but in the
2:07:20galveston trial the reason that they
2:07:22later said they did not call
2:07:24an expert in galveston was because they
2:07:27were able to get mr durst to testify
2:07:30about this information without objection
2:07:33so my concern is that what we got here
2:07:35is we've got an attempt to kind of sneak
2:07:37in this information by mr durst without
2:07:40any cross-examination so those are the
2:07:42issues and i'm hoping the court can
2:07:43provide some guidance and also sure to
2:07:45mention to mr durst that he is not to
2:07:48mention anything the word psychiatrist
2:07:50should not come out of his mouth mr
2:07:52lewin first of all you're not correct
2:07:54that mr nurse testified that he gave
2:07:57loans he did say he
2:07:59co-signed vista loans i'm not sure what
2:08:02that means it does not mean personally
2:08:04giving a loan
2:08:06he did mention psychiatrists i've
2:08:07stricken that at every occasion and each
2:08:09occasion it's non-responsive had there
2:08:12been a question about psychiatry or
2:08:14psychological treatment i would have
2:08:16sustained your objection the jury should
2:08:18not hear about
2:08:19psychiatry not only that it doesn't
2:08:22amount to a defense i'm not instructing
2:08:24on any psychiatric defense unless
2:08:26there's some evidence of it none has
2:08:28been
2:08:29presented so i have given you enormous
2:08:33leeway in giving context to your
2:08:36presentation i'm giving some leeway to
2:08:39the defense on the idea
2:08:41that that mr de garan is going to tie
2:08:44this into relevant evidence however the
2:08:48entirety of a person's experience is
2:08:51that that may be relevant to the case is
2:08:53not simply the facts and circumstances
2:08:55of the commission of crimes therefore
2:08:58i'm going to let the defense have some
2:09:00leeway to present a story in a coherent
2:09:04way that that includes hopefully
2:09:08the the the uh specifics behind his
2:09:10initial denial of responsibility this is
2:09:13why your honor i support the where i was
2:09:15not objecting much i am concerned first
2:09:18right when he says though that he's
2:09:19co-signing
2:09:21in the end um whether he's giving the
2:09:23loan or cosign alone that is still an
2:09:25irrelevant issue that is certainly
2:09:28injected as a means of making look at it
2:09:30as if mr durst is a certain kind of
2:09:33individual
2:09:34people people try to make themselves
2:09:36look good with adding a word or two to
2:09:39their uh to their answers if that
2:09:41specific word isn't responsive the
2:09:43balance of the answer was responsive i
2:09:45wasn't going to strike his answer
2:09:46because he volunteered a word or two
2:09:49that made him look
2:09:51good if you want to cross-examine him
2:09:53about his co-signing of of loans for
2:09:56people uh who he was helping through the
2:09:59vista program that's fine it seemed to
2:10:01me that you explored the circumstances
2:10:04of his development of a friendship with
2:10:06susan berman this is the other side of
2:10:09that he's describing how their lives
2:10:13intersected and when they did not why
2:10:15they did not so i'm giving the defense
2:10:17as i said a little bit of leeway to make
2:10:20a coherent presentation that is a reason
2:10:22why i've overruled some of your
2:10:24objections and that is the spirit with
2:10:27which i will rule on on future
2:10:29objections no problem your honor thank
2:10:31you recess
2:23:36all right welcome back ladies and
2:23:37gentlemen
2:23:38jurors and ultimates all have returned
2:23:40people versus doris mr george to terry
2:23:42mr degarin and mr chasnoth we have mr
2:23:47millius mr lewin mr bailey and mr
2:23:49henderson mr miata also
2:23:51you may resume your examination of the
2:23:54witness mr mccarron
2:23:58[Music]
2:24:00bob i started to ask you about
2:24:04where susan was and what she was doing
2:24:06while you were
2:24:08working on
2:24:09opening your store in middlebury vermont
2:24:12what was susan
2:24:14doing
2:24:15then
2:24:20so this is like 1969
2:24:231970.
2:24:26susan was working for city magazine
2:24:29and she had decided
2:24:31that she wanted to write a book
2:24:34about the story of her life
2:24:37i think i said before and write
2:24:40that her father was a well-known
2:24:43lobster type
2:24:45davey barman was buzzy seagulls
2:24:49right hand man
2:24:51susan had photographs
2:24:53of
2:24:55at her birthday parties
2:24:58when she was young
2:25:00with liberace
2:25:03performing for her and her friends
2:25:11and she felt in order to get the book
2:25:14published
2:25:16she should move to new york
2:25:18which is where the publishers were
2:25:22let's get the uh this microphone a
2:25:24little bit closer to him or maybe you
2:25:26could um speak directly into it it seems
2:25:30to me his voice has dropped off a little
2:25:32bit and it might not be quite as audible
2:25:35as just before the break
2:25:46that that looks better thank you mr
2:25:48pagar
2:25:58so did susan
2:26:00move to new york
2:26:06i need a little background here
2:26:09i i
2:26:11from shortly after
2:26:13i got back to new york
2:26:16i had taken a floor
2:26:18in one of my family's town houses
2:26:23and in the city
2:26:25and i was using that as a
2:26:27when i stayed in the city
2:26:30i told susan
2:26:33if she wanted to
2:26:35she could move into my second bedroom
2:26:39so susan moved to new york
2:26:42and moved into the second bedroom
2:26:46in the broad town
2:26:48new yorkers call them brownstones
2:26:52out here they're called
2:26:54town houses
2:26:56so susan moved in
2:26:58to the second bedroom
2:27:00on the one floor
2:27:03of a town house
2:27:05that i was using
2:27:08she stayed there for about
2:27:11six months
2:27:13when she rented an apartment
2:27:17on a well-known
2:27:19area
2:27:21called beefland craze
2:27:24okay
2:27:28during this time susan moves to new york
2:27:31stays in your
2:27:33spare bedroom
2:27:34and then gets her own place six months
2:27:36later
2:27:37what were you doing were you working in
2:27:40new york or were you
2:27:42working to open your store or were you
2:27:44doing both
2:27:47i was spending very little time in the
2:27:50city
2:27:51most of my time i was in middlebury
2:27:53vermont
2:27:56but
2:27:58i still had friends from high school and
2:28:01college
2:28:02in the city
2:28:05the man who introduced me to susan
2:28:10stewart allman
2:28:13had graduated
2:28:16from brooklyn law school
2:28:22and had just gotten divorced
2:28:27he needed a place to stay
2:28:31so i had all my comfort
2:28:34oh residential leasing agent
2:28:38show him apartments in the city
2:28:44um
2:28:46he moved into
2:28:49a building
2:28:51one block from where i was living all
2:28:54right i'm going to stop you there so i
2:28:56can ask you another question about that
2:28:58we've the jury has seen stuart altman
2:29:02we
2:29:05we know that he was
2:29:06he also introduced you to susan
2:29:09uh in when you were going to ucla
2:29:13what role does stewart altman then play
2:29:17in your meeting
2:29:18kathy
2:29:20mccormick who later became your wife
2:29:25so one weekend
2:29:28stewart called me up
2:29:31and said the two cute girls
2:29:34had just moved into the building
2:29:37where he was renting an apartment
2:29:42he brought them over to my apartment
2:29:45and we went out to dinner
2:29:48one of them
2:29:49was kathy mccormick
2:29:53kathy mccormick
2:29:55and i got along
2:29:57very very well
2:30:00so tell us
2:30:01uh from that very first moment what was
2:30:04your impression
2:30:06of kathy
2:30:10she was pre
2:30:15and she was
2:30:17interesting
2:30:19we could talk for a long time
2:30:22we stayed up most of the night
2:30:25just talking to one another
2:30:28she had just gotten out of high school
2:30:32and spent a year
2:30:34working for a reception at the
2:30:36receptionist
2:30:39in a dental clinic
2:30:42she did not have no er
2:30:45kathy did not have any
2:30:47dental training
2:30:49she could not clean teeth
2:30:52or anything like that
2:30:54her role
2:30:55was mostly
2:30:58to take this patient
2:31:00for patients
2:31:03from the reception area
2:31:06into the dental rooms
2:31:10okay
2:31:11let me stop you there and ask another
2:31:13question
2:31:17i'd ask you what your impression was of
2:31:19kathy
2:31:20that you and she
2:31:24hit it off well
2:31:28we hit it off real well
2:31:31we went out a couple more times in new
2:31:33york
2:31:34and when i went up to middlebury vermont
2:31:38she came with me
2:31:41and stayed for three or four days
2:31:44had you already
2:31:46had you already opened your store in
2:31:48vermont no
2:31:50the store was still a work in progress
2:31:54we were buying lumber for shelves
2:31:59and bookcases
2:32:02and cabinets
2:32:04and we were doing a lot of the work
2:32:06ourselves
2:32:08cutting two by fours
2:32:10and cutting plywood
2:32:15so um
2:32:17to clarify
2:32:18was the store open
2:32:20when you and cathy when you took kathy
2:32:23up to
2:32:24vermont with you or not
2:32:27when kathy first meeted me
2:32:30the store was not open
2:32:32it took another couple of months
2:32:35i was hiring students
2:32:38from middlebury college
2:32:41at the time
2:32:43the minimum wage
2:32:45in vermont
2:32:47was a dollar sixty an hour
2:32:51so it was very inexpensive
2:32:53for me to hire students
2:32:56to help me build the store
2:33:00taxi must have visited me
2:33:03probably once every three weeks
2:33:07for four or five months
2:33:09each time she would stay a little longer
2:33:14then she went and quit her job with the
2:33:16dentist's office
2:33:18and moved in with me and vermont
2:33:21so
2:33:22from the period of time
2:33:25when you first
2:33:27met kathy
2:33:29until she came to spend time with you
2:33:31and
2:33:33uh vermont until the time that you
2:33:37she actually moved in
2:33:38with you in vermont
2:33:40tell the jury
2:33:41how your relationship with kathy
2:33:43progressed
2:33:49well i progressed the usual way
2:33:55did you fall in love
2:33:58yeah we were both in love
2:34:01we both like to be each other
2:34:04littleberry vermont
2:34:06was very quaint
2:34:09easy to live in
2:34:12you had to do not much in the way of
2:34:14entertainment
2:34:16you had to entertain yourselves
2:34:22well
2:34:23what was your business plan
2:34:27about the store
2:34:31well when a new store opens in a small
2:34:34town
2:34:35the wholesalers
2:34:38are all very interested
2:34:40in getting you to stock your shelves
2:34:44with their products
2:34:46in vermont
2:34:48there were a lot of farms
2:34:51a lot of people
2:34:54grew vegetables and fruit
2:34:57and things
2:35:00where they had no place to sell
2:35:03so we were able
2:35:05to very quickly
2:35:07go into business
2:35:11and we could stock the shelves
2:35:15with everything we needed
2:35:19we would not have to make a payment
2:35:22for six months or a year
2:35:25and if whatever one
2:35:28that we had bought into the store
2:35:31did not sell
2:35:33the wholesalers
2:35:35would take it back
2:35:38so it was pretty easy
2:35:41to start the business
2:35:43from scratch
2:35:46a typical day
2:35:48cassie and i would walk
2:35:50from our
2:35:51the downstairs of this house we invented
2:35:55to this store
2:35:57it was about half a mile
2:36:00work in the store all day
2:36:03and walk home
2:36:05part of the house that we rented used
2:36:08wood for heat
2:36:11so we learned about how to
2:36:14cut up logs
2:36:17using a bow saw
2:36:22and
2:36:23using a log square
2:36:26so that we had heat in the whole house
2:36:29and we would cook these elaborate meals
2:36:33the store saw a whole bunch of
2:36:37hippie type books
2:36:40things on how to bake bread
2:36:43lots of recipe books
2:36:47and things about living off awesome land
2:36:51let me stop you and ask another question
2:36:55um the the store had been your idea
2:36:58in the beginning
2:37:00and then you met kathy
2:37:02and kathy started spending more time
2:37:04until she actually moved in with you
2:37:06in vermont
2:37:08tell the jury
2:37:10um how kathy
2:37:12took to
2:37:15the store and the idea of living in a
2:37:18small community
2:37:26well kathy
2:37:28is from new york city
2:37:31just outside of new york city
2:37:34so she was
2:37:36everything was brand new to her
2:37:39in terms of a small town
2:37:42and what you did in a small town
2:37:46like bingo night was a great big deal
2:37:51everybody would go to bingo night
2:37:55because there wasn't much else there
2:37:58there was one small movie theater
2:38:02periodically
2:38:05if you went to the nine o'clock show
2:38:08there'd be a sign up on the door
2:38:12that nobody had showed up to seven
2:38:14o'clock
2:38:16and the guy had cancelled the nine
2:38:18o'clock
2:38:19there were a few restaurants
2:38:22living in a small town
2:38:25was as new to her as it was to me
2:38:29everybody knew everybody
2:38:32the postman lived upstairs
2:38:35did you like it
2:38:37did you like it
2:38:39we both like it and i was gonna ask you
2:38:42if kathy took to it also
2:38:53we both fight
2:38:58what role did kathy play in running the
2:39:02store
2:39:04same as me
2:39:06we both did the
2:39:09work on building shelves
2:39:12and cabinets
2:39:13and we both worked with cash register
2:39:18and we both worked on
2:39:21the opening of the boxes that the stuff
2:39:24came in
2:39:27so you were excited on the shelves
2:39:30and putting prices on it
2:39:35so you work side by side yeah
2:39:40did you enjoy that
2:39:42yeah
2:39:46what was the situation with the durst
2:39:48organization and your father
2:39:51in new york during that time well my dad
2:39:55visited us
2:39:57probably once every couple of months
2:40:01and stayed overnight
2:40:03at the middleware and
2:40:06and dan was very interested
2:40:09in convincing me
2:40:12that i should come back to new york
2:40:15because obviously
2:40:17the store
2:40:18was never going to make me rich
2:40:22he was right
2:40:24it was never going to make me rich
2:40:27did that matter to you
2:40:29it didn't bother me at all why not i was
2:40:32making so much money
2:40:34from the trust income
2:40:37more money
2:40:39came in every month
2:40:41that i could possibly spend
2:40:44my biggest expense
2:40:47was paying income tax
2:40:49on my income
2:40:52i spotted on that
2:40:54i spent very little money
2:40:57well did you
2:40:59did you see
2:41:01the store
2:41:03as being a huge success
2:41:06or not
2:41:11it was a success to me
2:41:14it made a little bit of money
2:41:17well i didn't really care that much
2:41:20sometimes
2:41:22when we looked over what we were doing
2:41:25we would realize
2:41:27that we were selling stuff for the rest
2:41:30and what we had bought it for
2:41:33well i mean it was never something where
2:41:36we needed
2:41:38the money
2:41:40because we had money
2:41:43what did you call the store
2:41:45all good things
2:41:47how did you land on that night
2:41:53it's a
2:41:54it comes from
2:41:56something or other
2:42:00which i can't remember right now
2:42:07so what did the store sell other than
2:42:10natural foods you said it was sold a
2:42:12little bit of everything
2:42:14a little bit of hardware
2:42:17if you wanted a hammer we had a hammer
2:42:20if you wanted nails we had some nails
2:42:24if you wanted a screwdriver we had a
2:42:26screwdriver and some screws
2:42:30we sold some toiletries
2:42:33our joke was
2:42:35you could have any kind of toothpaste
2:42:37you wanted
2:42:39as long as it was colgate
2:42:42we sold toothbrushes
2:42:44we sold combs
2:42:47we stole a bunch of different soaps
2:42:50but there was one of everything
2:42:54did you sell food also
2:42:56oh it was mostly food what kind of food
2:43:00health food
2:43:03how did you know
2:43:04i'm sorry
2:43:06granola was granola invented back then
2:43:12352.
2:43:15right
2:43:16there's an exception for humor
2:43:18it was a night hero female
2:43:22thanks for keeping it light now let's
2:43:23move to
2:43:25the next area all right
2:43:28so
2:43:30bob when you went into the city
2:43:33did you actually go to the durst
2:43:35organization from time to time to work
2:43:37i did not work
2:43:40sometimes
2:43:42dad would tell me
2:43:45that there was such and such meeting
2:43:48and would you please come
2:43:50and sit in the room during the meeting
2:43:54and periodically i would do that
2:43:58but i would do it
2:44:00sort of my way
2:44:03i in little very vermont
2:44:06i would wear jeans and a work shirt
2:44:11they had convinced me
2:44:14actually
2:44:16one
2:44:16day
2:44:18when we were walking to dinner
2:44:21he stopped at brooks brothers
2:44:24brooks brothers
2:44:26was known
2:44:28as the store
2:44:30for executives
2:44:32it's not like it is now
2:44:35where there are brooks brothers
2:44:37and lots of shopping centers
2:44:40then there was one brooks brother
2:44:44there was a manhattan
2:44:46in midtown
2:44:49was there a more or less a uniform
2:44:52for working at uh
2:44:54the durst organization that was it
2:44:57what
2:44:59so i bought a suit
2:45:02and periodically
2:45:04i would go into the business
2:45:07and sit in on a meeting
2:45:12i felt bad
2:45:15about
2:45:17rejecting
2:45:20seymour my dad
2:45:22felt that i was rejecting
2:45:25this
2:45:26business which he had spent his lifetime
2:45:31creating for me
2:45:36if i did not feel like it was for me
2:45:39i felt he was doing
2:45:42what he loved doing
2:45:46period and did you want to do that
2:45:50i felt like i should do something
2:45:54so that he did not feel
2:45:57like i was being spiteful
2:45:59to him
2:46:02on the other hand
2:46:04what was your work uniform
2:46:06in middlebury vermont
2:46:11jeans i don't work sure
2:46:15how were you more comfortable
2:46:20and you know
2:46:22i was never comfortable in my suit
2:46:29kathy
2:46:31was living with you by then
2:46:34in vermont and running the store
2:46:36how did she feel about your trips to new
2:46:39york to work for the durst organization
2:46:45whenever i told kathy
2:46:48that i was involved in new york for
2:46:50several days
2:46:53she would
2:46:55start to get sort of upset
2:46:58i think she guessed
2:47:01what was going to happen in the future
2:47:04which was i was eventually
2:47:07going to give in
2:47:09and go to work in the nurse organization
2:47:14so
2:47:18again did you want to do that did you
2:47:21want to go
2:47:22give up what you had in vermont
2:47:26i wanted to stay in vermont
2:47:30but i convinced myself
2:47:34i should
2:47:36go work in the nurse organization
2:47:39for a couple of years
2:47:42and then dad would see
2:47:45that i did not like it and when i was
2:47:48not good at it
2:47:50i was okay with him
2:47:53if i
2:47:54did not work in the durst organization
2:47:59by 19
2:48:06kathy and i
2:48:08had decided
2:48:10to get married
2:48:12all right
2:48:13so
2:48:15uh my next question was going to be how
2:48:17long
2:48:18you and kathy had the store
2:48:21in vermont
2:48:24probably a year and a half
2:48:26that gets us to
2:48:281971.
2:48:32in 1971
2:48:36we decided
2:48:38we would get married
2:48:41my initial reaction
2:48:44i wanted to make sure kathy was aware
2:48:48that i did not want to have children
2:48:52i'm going to get to that in just a
2:48:53moment
2:48:55but first i want
2:48:57there was a photograph that was
2:48:59uh it's been the jury's already seen it
2:49:01but i'd like to put it up again and ask
2:49:03you about it
2:49:05it's our number
2:49:06uh it hasn't been marked yet as ours but
2:49:09it's uh
2:49:11uh our number eight
2:49:14people's exhibit number
2:49:20i'm not sure what number it was it's
2:49:22people's exhibit can we have it mark
2:49:24desires
2:49:32it could be defense age
2:49:34oh yeah this screen is not working so
2:49:37the jury will have to
2:49:38take a look at this other screen i think
2:49:40the tv just needs to be turned on
2:49:42no no no no
2:49:44it's our problem
2:49:45thank you can look at this today we'll
2:49:48have it restored in the morning
2:49:50so bob um
2:49:52what's the number
2:49:53what's the the exhibit you're on earth
2:49:55people 63
2:49:57people 63
2:49:59defense your honor says we mark it as
2:50:01ours also why don't we i think it's
2:50:03going to be get confusing if we double
2:50:05mark exhibits yeah
2:50:0863.
2:50:10so bob what are we looking at
2:50:13can you see it
2:50:19and
2:50:19[Music]
2:50:20it's me in my hippie uniform
2:50:24and cassie on our wedding day
2:50:28what
2:50:29what day was that
2:50:33we did it on my 30th birthday
2:50:36april 12
2:50:391973.
2:50:42where in the world did you get that tie
2:50:48that didn't come from brooks brothers
2:50:50did it he hadn't met chip lewis yet
2:50:53he had not
2:50:57you don't have to answer that
2:51:04bob um
2:51:07tell us about that
2:51:17well day it was
2:51:20kathy's father
2:51:22died
2:51:23when she was 12
2:51:26from colon cancer
2:51:29it was a terrible thing that she went
2:51:33through
2:51:34and that her father went through
2:51:37in those days
2:51:39if you let colon can't well maybe it's
2:51:42the same way today
2:51:44but when her father went through
2:51:47was having an inch
2:51:49an incision in his side
2:51:52and a band attached to it
2:51:55kind of like the bag that i buy here
2:51:59for my urine
2:52:01but this is for me
2:52:03to your honor and you have special clues
2:52:05made
2:52:08what's right
2:52:13you go ahead
2:52:16and you have special suits made
2:52:19with a pocket
2:52:21that holds
2:52:24basically
2:52:25a day's worth of poop
2:52:29and you've got to clean the thing out of
2:52:31course
2:52:33seemingly
2:52:35he lives for about nine months like that
2:52:38and then he died
2:52:41and i can get back to our wedding day
2:52:44since kathy had no father
2:52:47and i had no mother
2:52:49and neither of us
2:52:51was interested
2:52:53in having a big party
2:52:56what we did
2:52:59was we found this grave
2:53:02about 10 minutes from the house in
2:53:04katana
2:53:07we
2:53:09told nobody
2:53:10we were getting married
2:53:13except i told my dad
2:53:16and kathy told her mother
2:53:19we went downtown
2:53:22new york to this municipal building
2:53:27and we got our marriage license
2:53:30marriage license
2:53:34we invited a priest and a rabbi
2:53:38kathy was catholic
2:53:41i am jewish
2:53:43but neither of us
2:53:46did much of the
2:53:48partaking of our religion
2:54:05um but let's uh it is a narrative and
2:54:08you need to know this is a
2:54:11do you understand bob i need to break it
2:54:13up in question and answer yeah
2:54:16so
2:54:19you and kathy were married by both a
2:54:21priest and a rabbi
2:54:25that's a question
2:54:31i i i don't know what the question is
2:54:34okay
2:54:35is there a delay
2:54:37on the screen
2:54:42never mind very delay on the screen
2:54:46minimal okay whenever i ask a question
2:54:49let me ask a question
2:54:53you were married by both a priest and a
2:54:55rabbi on your birthday is that right
2:55:03yes
2:55:07was it a happy occasion for you
2:55:12oh there we are
2:55:14so we invited cassie's mother and my
2:55:17father my question is was it a a happy
2:55:21occasion
2:55:23was kathy happy
2:55:26cathy was ecstatic were you happy i was
2:55:30ecstatic
2:55:32were you in love
2:55:35we were both very much in love
2:55:38where were you living and where did you
2:55:39plan to live
2:55:41in the next
2:55:42year or so
2:55:45well about a year before we got married
2:55:55about a year before we got married
2:55:59i promised dad
2:56:02that i would check the store
2:56:05or sell the store
2:56:08and come work in the durst organization
2:56:12but i told them
2:56:14if i did not like it
2:56:16i would only do it for a little while
2:56:20i was very pleasantly surprised
2:56:23to find out that there were people who
2:56:27wanted
2:56:29to run our health food store
2:56:32so i was able to sell the lease
2:56:36and to sell
2:56:38the inventory i guess you call it
2:56:43had to make a small profit
2:56:48and we
2:56:51gave up from leaving
2:56:54of the apartment
2:56:56we were living in middlebury
2:56:59so where were you living then when you
2:57:01and kathy married
2:57:04well there's more to the last part of it
2:57:07so i sold the store again with the
2:57:10police of the apartment
2:57:12we had bought what's called a quarter
2:57:15century
2:57:17460 acres
2:57:20of forest land
2:57:22on the
2:57:24hillside
2:57:25[Music]
2:57:26about 40 minutes
2:57:29outside of hillbury
2:57:32where we plan on building a house
2:57:34someday
2:57:36so we kept the land
2:57:39we moved into the katona house
2:57:44and we fixed up the apartment
2:57:46in the city
2:57:48where susan barman
2:57:50had visited us
2:57:53so
2:57:54before we did that
2:57:59we went on our honeymoon
2:58:01i'm going to ask you about that
2:58:03but so at the time of your marriage were
2:58:06you living in katona
2:58:08and the apartment in manhattan and had
2:58:11given up the house in
2:58:14vermont
2:58:20yes i gave up the rented apartment
2:58:24and we were living on in vermont
2:58:26it was a downstairs of a house
2:58:30all right now you mentioned your
2:58:33honeymoon
2:58:36did you and kathy
2:58:38uh
2:58:39take a honeymoon
2:58:41yeah so we got a man
2:58:43what that spent a lot of time what kind
2:58:46of van
2:58:48what kind of van
2:58:51ford
2:58:52all right
2:58:54and we built all kinds
2:58:56of stuff in the van we had a mattress
2:59:00and an ice box
2:59:02and some kind of a stove
2:59:05and we took two months
2:59:08and zoomed around the country
2:59:12we
2:59:12visited
2:59:26children susan had already moved to new
2:59:29york
2:59:30so we did not visit susan
2:59:33in san francisco
2:59:36we visited
2:59:37my baby brother tommy
2:59:40in san francisco
2:59:43what was your relationship with tommy
2:59:46then
2:59:48he was seven years younger than me
2:59:52so when i got out of high school at 18
2:59:56when i was 18
2:59:58had moved away from score sale
3:00:01he was only 11.
3:00:05so we never saw each other very much
3:00:09all right you mentioned that
3:00:11you and kathy
3:00:12were taking your honeymoon by driving
3:00:14around the country
3:00:16in a van
3:00:18yes and i
3:00:20found my itinerary
3:00:23i left out someplace in there
3:00:26between
3:00:29susan leaving
3:00:31san francisco chronicle
3:00:33and going to work for city magazine
3:00:36she bought a house on clay street
3:00:40where i had visited her
3:00:43then she moved to new york
3:00:45okay now
3:00:46when susan had the house on clay street
3:00:50in san francisco that was before you and
3:00:53kathy
3:00:54uh had met and married right
3:00:58that was before i met kathy yes okay
3:01:03so back to
3:01:05your honeymoon
3:01:07do i
3:01:08understand to tell the jury
3:01:11did you
3:01:12travel around the country and live in
3:01:14your van for a couple of months
3:01:20yes
3:01:23bob even though
3:01:27it was
3:01:28trust money
3:01:29did you need to
3:01:31live in a van traveling around the
3:01:33country and sleep
3:01:35by the side of the road
3:01:37absolutely not
3:01:40why did you do it
3:01:41what i wanted to do
3:01:44did kathy what we wanted to know
3:01:47and how was it it was fun
3:01:55you've uh
3:01:57you've heard tommy your
3:01:59little brother
3:02:01testify here that he resented you
3:02:04to this day
3:02:06for
3:02:07pulling a trick on him in a
3:02:11revolving door
3:02:14do you remember that event
3:02:18i remember tommy's testimony
3:02:21i don't remember the answer
3:02:24tommy said
3:02:26[Music]
3:02:29and this is when he was in idaho
3:02:32so i don't know how old we were then
3:02:35i don't remember
3:02:38when he was talking about
3:02:41me ignoring him in the revolving door
3:02:47it was not when he was little
3:02:50he was a grown-up
3:02:54at any rate
3:02:55where
3:02:56tell the jury a little bit about
3:02:58where you went you and kathy
3:03:01when you spent your two month honeymoon
3:03:03injection relevance sustained
3:03:12what did you do
3:03:13after you and kathy
3:03:15um
3:03:17came back from your honeymoon
3:03:24i went to work at the dirt store gonna
3:03:27say
3:03:33it was just like i expected it to be
3:03:37and i did not love it
3:03:39i
3:03:40barely liked it at all
3:03:44i was in a room
3:03:46with a whole bunch of suits
3:03:51all day long
3:03:55and people would talk about
3:03:59language
3:04:01you know means
3:04:03very mortgage
3:04:06i gradually
3:04:08figured out how to do things
3:04:12but it was not something i loved
3:04:16meanwhile
3:04:18for kathy
3:04:20life would go gone the other way
3:04:23kathy's family
3:04:26her brother went to college
3:04:29none of her older three sisters went to
3:04:32college
3:04:33kathy did not plan on going to college
3:04:37but when we were in middlebury
3:04:40she got an idea
3:04:42that she wanted to be a nurse

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