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LIVE: Facebook whistleblower Frances Haugen testifies to U.S. Senate — Transcript

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0:58oh
1:31is
1:48foreign
2:04is
2:12oh
2:48me
3:19oh
4:12uh
4:37thank you
5:04so
5:36foreign uh
5:56oh
7:07so
7:21so
8:19the meeting and hearing of the
8:22subcommittee on consumer protection of
8:24the commerce committee will come to
8:26order
8:28i'm very pleased to
8:30welcome my colleagues and i want to
8:33thank
8:34ranking member senator
8:36blackburn for her cooperation and
8:39collaboration we've been working very
8:40closely
8:42and
8:43the ranking member who is here senator
8:45wicker as well as our
8:47chairwoman
8:49maria cantwell senator cantwell i'm sure
8:51will be here shortly
8:53most important i'd like to thank our
8:55witness
8:57francis haugen
8:58for being here and
9:00the two council who are representing her
9:03today and
9:05i want to give you my heartfelt
9:08gratitude for your courage
9:11and strength in coming forward as you
9:13have done standing up to one of the most
9:16powerful implacable corporate giants in
9:18the history of the world without
9:21any exaggeration
9:23you have a compelling
9:25credible voice which we've heard already
9:29but you are not here
9:31alone
9:33you're armed with documents and evidence
9:36and you speak volumes as they do about
9:40how facebook
9:42has put profits ahead of people
9:46among other revelations the information
9:48that you have provided to congress
9:51is powerful proof that facebook knew
9:55its products were harming teenagers
9:58facebook exploited teens using powerful
10:02algorithms
10:03that amplified their insecurities and
10:05abuses through what it found
10:08was an addict's narrative
10:12there is a question
10:14which i hope you will discuss as to
10:16whether
10:17there is such a thing as a safe
10:20algorithm
10:22facebook saw teens creating secret
10:25accounts
10:26that are often hidden from their parents
10:31as unique value proposition
10:34in their words a unique value
10:36proposition a way to drive up numbers
10:39for advertisers
10:40and shareholders at the expense of
10:43safety
10:45and it doubled down on targeting
10:47children pushing products on preteens
10:50not just teens but pre-teens
10:53that it knows are harmful to our kids
10:56mental health and well-being instead of
10:58telling parents facebook concealed the
11:01facts it sought to stonewall and block
11:04this information from becoming public
11:06including to this committee
11:08when senator blackburn and i
11:09specifically asked
11:12the company
11:13and still even now
11:16as of just last thursday when a facebook
11:18witness came before this committee it
11:20has refused
11:22disclosure or even to tell us when it
11:24might decide
11:25whether to disclose additional documents
11:29and they've continued their tactics even
11:33after they knew the disruption it caused
11:37it isn't just that they made money
11:39from these practices but they continued
11:42to profit from them
11:45their profit was more important than the
11:47pain that they caused
11:50last thursday the message from ms
11:53antigone davis facebook's global head of
11:55safety was simple
11:58quote this research is not a bombshell
12:01end quote
12:03and she repeated the line
12:05not a bombshell
12:07well
12:09this research is
12:11the very definition of a bombshell
12:14facebook and big tech are facing a big
12:17tobacco omen
12:19a moment of reckoning
12:21the parallel is striking
12:23i sued big tobacco as connecticut's
12:25attorney general i helped to lead
12:28the states in that legal action and i
12:30remember very very well
12:33the moment
12:35in the course of our litigation when we
12:37learned of those files that showed
12:42not only that big tobacco knew that his
12:44product caused cancer
12:46but that they had done the research they
12:48concealed the files
12:51and
12:52now we knew and the world knew and big
12:55tech now faces that big tobacco
12:59jaw-dropping moment of truth it is
13:03documented proof that facebook knows its
13:06products can be addictive and toxic
13:09to children
13:10and it's not just that they made money
13:12again it's that
13:14they value their profit
13:17more
13:18than the pain that they cause to
13:20children and their families
13:24the damage to self-interest and
13:26self-worth of inflicted by facebook
13:29today
13:31will haunt a generation
13:35feelings of inadequacy and insecurity
13:37rejection
13:39and self-hatred
13:41will impact
13:44this generation for years to come
13:46our children
13:48are the ones who are victims teens today
13:51looking at themselves in the mirror
13:55feel doubt and insecurity
14:00mark zuckerberg ought to be looking at
14:02himself in the mirror today
14:05and yet rather than taking
14:06responsibility
14:08and showing leadership
14:11mr zuckerberg is going sailing
14:15his new modus operandi no apologies no
14:18admission
14:19no action nothing to see here
14:22mark zuckerberg you need to come before
14:24this committee you need to explain
14:26to
14:27francis haugen
14:29to us to the world
14:32and to
14:33the parents of america
14:36what you were doing and why you did it
14:39instagram's business model is pretty
14:41straightforward more eyeballs more
14:43dollars everything facebook does
14:46is to add more users and keep them on
14:49their apps for longer
14:51in order to hook us instagram uses our
14:53private information
14:55to precisely target us
14:58with content and recommendations
15:01assessing that
15:03what will provoke a reaction
15:06will keep us scrolling
15:09far too often these recommendations
15:11encourage our most destructive and
15:13dangerous
15:14behaviors
15:16as we showed on thursday
15:18we created a fake account my office and
15:21i did as a teen interested in extreme
15:25dieting
15:26and eating disorders
15:28instagram
15:29latched on to that teenager's initial
15:32insecurities it then pushed more content
15:35and recommendations
15:36glorifying eating
15:38disorders that's how instagram's
15:41algorithms
15:43can push teens into darker and darker
15:46places facebook's own researchers
15:50called it instagram's quote
15:52perfect storm
15:55exacerbating
15:57downward spirals
15:59facebook as you have put it is how can
16:02so powerfully maximizes profits
16:05and ignores pain
16:08facebook's failure to acknowledge and to
16:10act makes it morally bankrupt
16:12again and again facebook rejected
16:15reforms recommended by its own
16:16researchers
16:18last week ms davis said quote we're
16:21looking at end quote
16:24no specific plans no
16:26commitments only vague platitude
16:31these documents that you have revealed
16:34provided this company with a blueprint
16:36for reform provided specific
16:38recommendations
16:40that could have made
16:41facebook and instagram safer the company
16:45repeatedly ignored those recommendations
16:48from its own
16:50researchers
16:52that would have made
16:54facebook and instagram safer fake
16:57facebook researchers have suggested
17:00changing their recommendations
17:03to stop promoting accounts known to
17:06encourage
17:07dangerous body
17:09comparison
17:11instead of making meaningful changes
17:13facebook simply pays lip service
17:17and if they won't act
17:20and if big tech won't act
17:22congress has to intervene
17:25privacy protection is long overdue
17:29senator markey and i have introduced the
17:30kids act which would ban addictive
17:33tactics that facebook uses to exploit
17:36children parents deserve better tools
17:39to protect their children
17:41i'm also a firm supporter of reforming
17:43section 230.
17:45we should consider narrowing this
17:47sweeping immunity
17:49when platforms algorithms
17:51amplify illegal conduct you've commented
17:54on this in your testimony and perhaps
17:56you'll expand on it
17:58we have also heard compelling
17:59recommendations about requiring
18:01disclosures of research
18:03and independent reviews of these
18:05platforms algorithms and i plan to
18:08pursue these ideas
18:10the securities and exchange commission
18:12should investigate your
18:15contentions and claims
18:17ms haugen
18:18and so should the federal trade
18:20commission
18:22facebook appears to have misled the
18:24public and investors
18:27and if that's correct it ought to face
18:29real penalties as a result of that
18:31misleading and deceptive
18:33misrepresentation
18:39i want to thank all my colleagues who
18:41are here today because
18:44what we have is a
18:46bipartisan congressional road map for
18:48reform
18:49that will safeguard and protect children
18:52from big tech
18:54that will be a focus of our subcommittee
18:57moving forward and it will continue to
18:58continue to be
19:00bipartisan
19:01and finally i'll just end on this note
19:05in the past weeks and days parents have
19:07contacted me
19:09with their stories heartbreaking
19:12and spine showing stories
19:14about children pushed into eating
19:16disorders
19:19bullying online
19:21self-injury of the most
19:24disturbing time
19:27and sometimes even taking their lives
19:29because of social media
19:32parents are holding facebook accountable
19:34because of your bravery
19:36is how them
19:37and we need to hold accountable facebook
19:41and all big tech
19:42as well again my thanks to you
19:45i am going to enter into the record the
19:48letter from 52 state attorneys general
19:51and from two members
19:53of the youth advisory board of sandy
19:55hook
19:56promise as long as there's no objection
19:59and i will now turn to the ranking
20:00member center platform
20:03thank you mr chairman and thank you for
20:05entering that letter in the record that
20:08we have from our state's attorneys
20:10general good morning to everyone it is
20:13nice to see people in this hearing
20:15room and
20:17to be here for the hearing today ms
20:19hagin we thank you
20:21for your appearance before us today and
20:23for giving the opportunity not only for
20:26congress but for uh for the american
20:29people
20:30to hear from you in this setting and we
20:33appreciate that mr chairman i think
20:35also thanks to you and your staff
20:39uh that have worked with our team to
20:41make certain that we had
20:43this hearing and this opportunity uh
20:46today so that we can get more insights
20:49into what facebook is actually doing as
20:53they invade the privacy not only of
20:56adults but of children and look at the
20:59ways that they are in violation of the
21:02children's online privacy protection act
21:05which is federal law
21:07and
21:08looking at how they are evading that law
21:12and working around it and as the
21:14chairman said a privacy and online
21:18privacy passing a federal
21:20privacy standard has been long in the
21:24works i filed my first
21:26privacy bill when i was in the house
21:28back in 2012
21:31and i think that it will be this
21:33congress and this subcommittee that is
21:36going to lead the way to online privacy
21:38data security section 230 reforms
21:42and of course senator klobuchar always
21:45wants to talk about antitrust and i have
21:48to give a nod senator markey is down
21:50there
21:51when we were in the house we were
21:53probably two of the only ones who were
21:56talking about the need to have a federal
21:59privacy
22:00standard now as the
22:02chairman mentioned
22:04last week
22:05we heard from mrs davis who had global
22:09safety for facebook and it was
22:12surprising
22:14to us that what she tried to do was to
22:18minimize the information that was in
22:21these documents to minimize the research
22:24and to minimize the knowledge that
22:27facebook had at one point i even
22:30reminded her the research was not third
22:34party research
22:35the research was there facebook's
22:39internal
22:41research
22:42so they knew
22:45what they were doing they knew where the
22:48violations were
22:50and they
22:51know
22:52they are
22:54guilty
22:56they know this
22:57their research tells them this
23:00um
23:01last week in advance of our hearing
23:04facebook released two studies and said
23:07that the wall street journal was all
23:09wrong they had just gotten it wrong
23:12as if the wall street journal did not
23:15know how to read
23:17these documents and how to work through
23:20this research
23:23having seen the data that you've
23:26presented and the other studies that
23:28facebook did not
23:30publicly share
23:32i feel pretty confident that it's
23:34facebook who has done the
23:37misrepresenting to this committee here
23:40are some of the numbers that facebook
23:42chose not to share and mr chairman i
23:45think it's important that we look at
23:48these as we talk about the setting for
23:51this hearing what we learned last week
23:54what you and i have been learning over
23:55the past three years about big tech and
23:58facebook and here you go 66 of teen
24:02girls on instagram and 40 percent of
24:04teen boys
24:06experience negative social comparisons
24:10this is facebook's research 52 percent
24:15of teen girls who experience negative
24:18social comparison on instagram
24:20said it was caused by images related to
24:23beauty social comparison is worse on
24:27instagram because it is perceived as
24:30real life but based on celebrity
24:33standards social comparison mimics the
24:36grief cycle and includes a downward
24:39emotional spiral encompassing a range of
24:42emotions from jealousy to
24:44self-proclaimed body dysmorphia
24:48facebook addiction which facebook calls
24:51conveniently
24:53problematic use
24:56is most severe in teens peaking at age
24:5914.
25:01here's what else we know
25:03facebook is not interested in making
25:06significant changes to improve kids
25:09safety on their platforms at least
25:12not when that would result in losing
25:14eyeballs on post
25:16or
25:17decreasing their ad revenues in fact
25:21facebook is running scared
25:24as they know that in their own words
25:26young adults are less active and less
25:29engaged on facebook and that they are
25:31running out of teens to add to instagram
25:35so teams are looking at other platforms
25:37like tick tock and facebook is only
25:40making those changes that add to its
25:42users numbers and ultimately its profits
25:48follow the money
25:50so what are these changes
25:52allowing users to create multiple
25:54accounts that facebook does not delete
25:58and encouraging teens to create second
26:00accounts they can hide from their
26:02parents they are also studying younger
26:05and younger children as young as eight
26:09so that they can market to them and
26:11while miss davis says that kids below 13
26:15are not allowed on facebook or instagram
26:18we know that they are
26:19because she told us
26:21that they recently had deleted 600 000
26:25accounts from children under age 13.
26:29so how do you get that many underage
26:32accounts
26:34if you aren't turning a blind eye to
26:37them in the first place
26:39and then in order to try to clean it up
26:42you go to delete it and then you say oh
26:44by the way we just in the last month
26:47deleted
26:48600
26:50000
26:51under underage accounts
26:53and speaking of turning a blind eye
26:55facebook turns a blind eye to user
26:58privacy
27:00news broke yesterday the the private
27:02data of over 1.5 billion that's right
27:061.5 billion facebook users is being
27:10sold
27:11on a hacking
27:13forum
27:14that's its biggest data breach to date
27:17examples like this underscore my strong
27:20concerns about facebook collecting the
27:22data of kids and teens and what they are
27:25doing with it facebook also turns a
27:28blind eye toward blatant human
27:30exploitation
27:32taking place on its platform trafficking
27:34forced labor cartels the worst possible
27:38things one can imagine
27:41big tech companies have gotten away with
27:43abusing consumers for too long
27:46it is clear that facebook prioritizes
27:49profit over the well-being of children
27:53and all users so as a mother and a
27:57grandmother
27:58this is an issue that is of particular
28:02concern to me
28:03so we thank you for being here today
28:06miss haugen and
28:08we look forward to getting to the truth
28:10about what facebook is doing with users
28:13data
28:14and how they are abusing their
28:17privacy and how they show a lack of
28:20respect for the individuals that are on
28:23their network we look forward to the
28:25testimony thank you mr chairman thanks
28:27senator
28:28black thank you senator blackman i don't
28:32know whether the ranking member
28:33would like to make it if you don't mind
28:35i thank you um
28:38chairman blumenthal and and i will just
28:40take a moment or two
28:42uh and and i do appreciate
28:44being able to to speak
28:46as ranking member of the full committee
28:48this this ms halligan this is a this is
28:50a subcommittee hearing you see some
28:52vacant seats uh there's pretty good
28:54attendance for a subcommittee uh there
28:56are also a lot of things going on so
28:58people will be coming and going but i'm
29:00i'm willing to predict
29:02that this will have almost 100
29:05attendance
29:06by members of the subcommittee because
29:08of the importance of this subject matter
29:09so thanks for coming forward
29:11to share concerns about facebook's
29:15business practices
29:16particularly with respect to children
29:18and teens and of course
29:20that is
29:21the the main topic of our it's the title
29:24of our hearing today protecting kids
29:27online
29:28the recent relevation of revelations
29:31about facebook's mental health effects
29:33on children
29:35and its plan to target younger audiences
29:38are indeed disturbing
29:40um and i think you're going to see a lot
29:42of bipartisan concern
29:45about this today and and in future
29:47hearings
29:48um they just they show how urgent it is
29:52for congress
29:53to act against powerful tech companies
29:58on behalf of children
30:00and the broader public
30:02and i say powerful tech companies they
30:04are
30:05uh possession possessive of immense
30:08immense power
30:10their product
30:12is addictive
30:13and people on both sides of this diet
30:17are concerned about this
30:19talk to an opinion maker just down the
30:22hall
30:23a few moments before this hearing this
30:25person said
30:27the
30:28tech gods
30:30have been
30:31demystified now and i think this hearing
30:35today mr chair
30:37is a part of the process
30:40of demystifying big tech
30:45the children of america are hooked on
30:48their product
30:49it is often destructive
30:52and harmful and there is a cynical
30:54knowledge on behalf of the leadership of
30:56these big tech companies that that is
30:59true
31:00ms hogan i i hope you will have a chance
31:04to talk about your work experience at
31:06facebook
31:07and perhaps compare it to other social
31:10media companies i also look forward to
31:12hearing your thoughts on how this
31:14committee and how this congress can
31:17ensure greater accountability
31:19and transparency especially with regard
31:23to children so thank you mr chairman and
31:26thank you ms hogan for being here today
31:28thanks senator wicker our witness this
31:30morning is frances haugen
31:32she was the lead product manager on
31:35facebook's civic misinformation team she
31:38holds a degree
31:40in electrical and computer engineering
31:42from olin college and an mba from
31:45harvard
31:47she made the courageous decision as all
31:49of us here and many others around the
31:52world know to leave
31:53facebook
31:55and reveal the terrible truths about the
31:57company
31:58he learned during her
32:00tenure there
32:02and uh i think we
32:05are all in agreement here in expressing
32:07our gratitude and our admiration for
32:09your bravery and coming forward thank
32:11you miss haugen
32:12please proceed
32:21good afternoon chairman blumenthal
32:23ranking member blackburn and members of
32:25the subcommittee
32:26thank you for the opportunity
32:28to appear before you
32:30my name is frances haugen
32:32i used to work at facebook
32:34i joined facebook because i think
32:36facebook has the potential to bring out
32:38the best enough
32:40but i'm here today because i believe
32:42facebook's products harm children stoke
32:45division and weaken our democracy
32:47the company's leadership knows how to
32:49make facebook and instagram saver but
32:52won't make the necessary changes because
32:54they have put their astronomical profits
32:56before people
32:58congressional action is needed
33:01they won't solve this crisis without
33:03your help
33:04yesterday we saw facebook get taken off
33:07the internet
33:08i don't know why i went down but i know
33:10that for more than five hours facebook
33:12wasn't used to deepen divides
33:15destabilize democracies and make young
33:18girls and women feel bad about their
33:19bodies
33:21it also means that millions of small
33:23businesses weren't able to reach
33:24potential customers
33:26and countless photos of new babies
33:28weren't joyously celebrated by family
33:30and friends around the world
33:32i believe
33:33in the potential of facebook
33:36we can have social media we enjoy
33:39that connects us
33:40without tearing our democr apart our
33:42democracy putting our children in danger
33:45and selling ethnic violence around the
33:46world
33:47we can do better
33:50i have worked as a product manager at
33:52large tech companies since 2006
33:54including google pinterest yelp and
33:56facebook
33:58my job has largely focused on
34:00algorithmic products like google plus
34:02search
34:03and recommendation systems like the one
34:04that powers the facebook news feed
34:07having worked on four different types of
34:09social networks
34:10i understand how complex and nuanced
34:12these problems are
34:15however
34:16the choices being made inside of
34:18facebook are disastrous for our children
34:21for our public safety
34:22for our privacy and for our democracy
34:25and that is why we must demand facebook
34:27make changes
34:30during my time at facebook first working
34:32as the lead product manager for civic
34:33misinformation and later on counter
34:36espionage
34:37i saw facebook repeatedly encounter
34:39conflicts between its own profits and
34:41our safety
34:43facebook consistently resolved these
34:45conflicts in favor of its own profits
34:48the result has been more division more
34:50harm
34:51more lies more threats and more combat
34:55in some cases this is this dangerous
34:57online talk has led to actual violence
34:59that harms and even kills people
35:02this is not simply a matter of certain
35:04social media users being angry or
35:07unstable or about one side being
35:09radicalized against the other
35:11it is about facebook choosing to grow at
35:13all costs becoming an almost trillion
35:16dollar company by buying its profits
35:19with our safety
35:21during my time at facebook i came to
35:23realize a devastating truth
35:25almost no one outside of facebook knows
35:27what happens inside of facebook
35:30the company intentionally hides vital
35:32information from the public from the us
35:34government and from governments around
35:36the world
35:37the documents i have provided to
35:38congress proved that facebook has
35:40repeatedly misled the public
35:43about what its own research reveals
35:44about the safety of children
35:46the efficacy of its artificial
35:48intelligence systems and its role in
35:50spreading divisive and extreme messages
35:53i came forward because i believe that
35:55every human being
35:56deserves the dignity of the truth
36:00the severity of this crisis demands that
36:02we break out of our previous regulatory
36:04frames
36:05facebook wants to trick you into
36:06thinking that privacy protections or
36:09changes to section 230 alone will be
36:11sufficient
36:12while important these will not get to
36:14the core of the issue which is that no
36:16one truly understands the destructive
36:18choices made by facebook
36:20except facebook
36:23we can afford nothing less than full
36:25transparency
36:26as long as facebook is operating in the
36:28shadows
36:29hiding its research from public scrutiny
36:31it is unaccountable
36:34until the incentives change
36:36facebook will not change
36:40left alone facebook will continue to
36:42make choices that go against the common
36:43good
36:44our common good
36:46when we realized big tobacco was hiding
36:48the harms it caused the government took
36:50action
36:52when we figured out cars were safer with
36:54seat belts the government took action
36:57and when our government learned that
36:58opioids were taking lives the government
37:01took action
37:02i implore you to do the same here
37:05today facebook shapes our perception of
37:07the world by choosing the information we
37:09see
37:10even those who don't use facebook are
37:12impacted by the majority who do
37:14a company with such frightening
37:16influence over so many people
37:18over their deepest thoughts feelings and
37:20behavior needs real oversight
37:23but facebook's closed design
37:26means it has no real oversight
37:29only facebook knows how it personalizes
37:31your feed for you
37:33at other large tech companies like
37:34google any independent researcher can
37:37download from the internet
37:39the company's search results and write
37:41papers about what they find
37:43and they do
37:44but facebook hides behind walls that
37:46keeps researchers and regulators from
37:48understanding the true dynamics of their
37:50system
37:51facebook will tell you privacy means
37:53they can't give you data
37:55this is not true
37:57when tobacco companies claimed that
38:00filtered cigarettes were safer for
38:01consumers
38:03scientists could independently
38:04invalidate these marketing messages
38:08and confirm that in fact they posed a
38:09greater threat to human health
38:12the public cannot do the same with
38:13facebook we are given no other option
38:16than to take their marketing messages on
38:18blind faith
38:20not only does the company hide most of
38:22its own data
38:23my disclosure has proved that when
38:25facebook is directly asked questions as
38:28important as how do you impact the
38:30health and safety of our children
38:33they mislead
38:34and they
38:37they choose to mislead and misdirect
38:40facebook has not earned our blind faith
38:44this inability to see into facebook's
38:46actual systems and confirm how they work
38:47is communicate it and work as com and
38:50confirm that they work as communicated
38:52is like the department of transportation
38:54regulating cars
38:56by only watching them drive down the
38:57highway
38:58today no regulator has a menu of
39:00solutions for how to fix facebook
39:02because facebook didn't want them to
39:04know enough about what's causing the
39:06problems
39:07otherwise they wouldn't otherwise there
39:09wouldn't have been need for a
39:10whistleblower
39:12how is the public supposed to assess if
39:14facebook is resolving conflicts of
39:15interest in a way that is aligned with
39:17the public good if the public has no
39:19visibility into how facebook operates
39:22this must change
39:25facebook wants you to believe that the
39:26problems we're talking about are
39:28unsolvable
39:29they want you to believe in false
39:31choices
39:33they want you to believe that you must
39:34choose between a facebook full of
39:36divisive and extreme content or losing
39:38one of the most important values our
39:41country was founded upon
39:43free speech
39:45that you must choose between public
39:46oversight of facebook's choices and your
39:48personal privacy
39:50that to be able to share fun photos of
39:52your kids with old friends you must also
39:55be inundated with anger driven virality
39:58they want you to believe that this is
40:00just part of the deal
40:02i am here today to tell you that's not
40:05true
40:07these problems
40:09are solvable
40:10a safer
40:12free speech respecting
40:14more enjoyable social media is possible
40:17but there is one thing that i hope
40:19everyone takes away from these
40:20disclosures it is that facebook can
40:22change but is clearly not going to do so
40:25on its own
40:27my fear is that without action divisive
40:29and extremist behaviors we see today are
40:31only the beginning
40:33what we saw in myanmar and are now seen
40:35in ethiopia are only the opening
40:37chapters of a story so terrifying no one
40:41wants to read the end of it
40:44congress can change the rules that
40:45facebook plays by and stop the many
40:47harms it is now causing
40:50we now know the truth about facebook's
40:52destructive impact
40:54i really appreciate the seriousness
40:57which the members of congress and the
40:58securities and exchange commission are
41:00approaching these issues
41:02i came forward at great personal risk
41:05because i believe we still have time to
41:07act
41:09but we must act now
41:11i'm asking you our elected
41:12representatives to act
41:14thank you
41:17thank you ms haugen thank you for taking
41:19that personal risk and we will do
41:21anything and everything
41:23to protect
41:24and stop any retaliation against you in
41:27any legal action
41:29that the company may bring to bear or
41:31anyone else and we've made that i think
41:34very clear
41:35in the course of these proceedings
41:39i
41:40want to ask you about this idea of
41:42disclosure you've talked about
41:45looking
41:46in effect at a car going down the road
41:49and we're going to have five-minute
41:51rounds of questions maybe a second round
41:53if you were willing to do it
41:57we're here today to look under the hood
42:00and that's what we need to do more in
42:02august senator blackburn and i wrote to
42:06mark zuckerberg and we asked him pretty
42:08straightforward questions about how the
42:10company
42:12works and safeguards children and teens
42:15on instagram facebook dogs
42:18duff sidetracked
42:21in effect misled us
42:23so i'm going to ask you a few straight
42:26forward questions to break down some of
42:29what you have said and
42:31if you can answer them yes or no that
42:33would be great as facebook's research
42:36its own research ever found that its
42:39platforms can have a negative effect
42:42on children and teens mental health or
42:44well-being
42:48many of facebook's internal research
42:50reports indicate that uh facebook has a
42:53serious negative harm on a
42:54non-significant not a significant
42:57portion of teenagers and younger and
43:00children
43:01and has facebook ever offered features
43:04that it knew had a negative effect
43:07on children's and teens mental health
43:11facebook knows that it's amplification
43:13algorithms things like engagement based
43:16ranking on instagram can leave children
43:18from very innocuous topics like healthy
43:20recipes i think all of us could eat a
43:22little more healthy
43:24all the way from just something innocent
43:26like healthy recipes to anorexia
43:28promoting content over a very short
43:31period of time and has facebook ever
43:34found again in its research that kids
43:37show sign
43:38of addiction on instagram
43:41facebook has studied a pattern that they
43:43call problematic use what we might more
43:45commonly call addiction
43:47um it has a very high bar for what it
43:50believes it is it says you you
43:52self-identify that you don't have
43:53control over your usage and that it is
43:55materially harming your health your
43:57schoolwork or your physical health
44:00five to six percent of 14 year olds have
44:03the self-awareness to admit both those
44:05questions it is likely that far more
44:08than five to six percent of 14 year olds
44:11are lit are even are addicted to
44:13instagram
44:15last thursday uh my colleagues and i
44:18asked ms davis who was representing
44:20facebook
44:21about how the decision would be made
44:24whether to
44:25pause permanently instagram for kids
44:29and she said quote there's no one person
44:32who makes a decision like that
44:34we think about it that
44:36collaboratively
44:39it's as though she couldn't mention mark
44:41zuckerberg's name
44:42isn't he the one who will be making this
44:44decision from your experience in the
44:46company
44:48mark holds a very unique role in on the
44:51tech industry in that he holds
44:54over 55 of all the voting shares for
44:56facebook um there are no similarly
44:59powerful companies that are as
45:01unilaterally controlled um and in the
45:04end the book stops with mark there's no
45:06one currently holding mark accountable
45:08but himself and mark zuckerberg in
45:10effect is the algorithm designer in
45:13chief correct
45:14um
45:16i received an mba from harvard and they
45:19emphasized to us that we are responsible
45:21for the organizations that we build
45:23um mark has built an organization that
45:25is very metrics driven it isn't it is
45:28intended to be flat there is no
45:30unilateral responsibility the metrics
45:32make the decision unfortunately that
45:34itself is a decision
45:37and in the end if he is the ceo and the
45:39chairman of facebook he is responsible
45:41for those decisions
45:43the buck stops with him the buck stops
45:45with him
45:46uh
45:47and speaking of the buck stopping uh
45:51you have
45:52said that
45:54facebook should declare moral bankruptcy
45:56i agree
45:58i think it's its actions
46:00and its failure to acknowledge its
46:01responsibility
46:04indicate moral bankruptcy there is a
46:06cycle occurring inside the company where
46:08facebook has struggled for a long time
46:10to recruit and retain the number of
46:12employees it needs to tackle the large
46:15scope of projects that it is chosen to
46:17take on
46:18facebook is stuck in a cycle where
46:21it struggles to struggles to hire
46:23that causes it to understaff projects
46:26which causes scandals which then makes
46:28it harder to hire
46:30part of why facebook needs to come out
46:32and say we did something wrong we made
46:34some choices that we regret is the only
46:36way we can move forward and heal
46:38facebook is we first have to admit the
46:40truth
46:41like the way we'll have reconciliation
46:44and we can move forward is by first
46:45being honest and declaring moral
46:47bankruptcy being honest and
46:49acknowledging that facebook has caused
46:52an aggravated a lot of pain simply make
46:54more money
46:55and it has profited off spreading
46:59disinformation and misinformation
47:01and sowing hate
47:04facebook's
47:06answers to facebook's destructive impact
47:09always seems to be
47:11more facebook we need more facebook
47:13which means more pain
47:15and more money for facebook
47:17would you agree
47:20i don't think at any point facebook set
47:22out to make a destructive platform
47:24i think it is a challenge of that
47:27facebook has set up an organization
47:29where the parts of the organization
47:30responsible for growing and expanding
47:32the organization are separate and not
47:35not regularly cross-pollinated with the
47:37parts of the company that focus on the
47:39harms that the company is causing and as
47:41a result regularly integrity actions
47:44projects that were hard fought by the
47:46teams trying to keep us safe are undone
47:49by new growth projects
47:51that counteract those same remedies
47:54so i do think it's a thing of there are
47:56organizational problems
47:57that need oversight and facebook needs
48:00help in order to move forward to a more
48:01healthy place
48:03and whether it's teens bullied into
48:05suicidal thoughts
48:08or the genocide of ethnic minorities in
48:13myanmar
48:14or fanning the flames of division
48:17within our own country or in europe
48:20they are ultimately responsible for the
48:24immorality
48:25of the pain that's caused
48:28facebook needs to take responsibility
48:29for the consequences of its choices
48:32it needs to be willing to accept small
48:34trade-offs on profit and i think i think
48:36just that act of being able to admit
48:39that it's a mixed bag is important and i
48:41think what we saw from antigone last
48:43week is an example of the kind of
48:45behavior we need to support facebook and
48:48growing out of which is instead of just
48:50focusing on all the good they do
48:52admit they have responsibilities to also
48:54remedy the harm
48:55but mark zuckerberg's new policy is
48:59no apologies
49:01no admissions no acknowledgement
49:04nothing to see here
49:06we're going to deflect it and go sailing
49:10i turn to the ranking member
49:12thank you mr chairman thank you for your
49:15testimony uh i want to stay with mr
49:18davis in some of her comments because i
49:20had asked her last week about the
49:23underage users
49:26and she had made the comment i'm going
49:28to quote from her testimony if we find
49:30an account of someone who's under 13 we
49:33remove them in the last three months we
49:36removed 600 000 accounts of under 13
49:40euros end quote
49:42and i have to tell you it seems to me
49:45that there's a problem if you have 600
49:49000
49:51accounts from children who ought not to
49:53be there in the first place
49:56so what did mark zuckerberg know about
49:59facebook's plans to bring kids on
50:02as new users and advertise to them
50:07there are reports within facebook that
50:09show cohort analyses where they examine
50:13at what ages do people join facebook and
50:15instagram
50:17and based on those cohort analyses
50:20so
50:20facebook likes to say children lie
50:23about their ages to get onto the
50:24platform
50:26the reality is enough kids tell the
50:28truth that you can work backwards to
50:31figure out what are approximately the
50:33real ages of anyone who's on the
50:34platform
50:36when facebook does cohort analyses and
50:38looks back retrospectively
50:40and discovers things like you know up to
50:4210 to 15 percent of even 10 year olds in
50:45a given cohort maybe on facebook or
50:47instagram
50:48okay so this is why
50:50adam missouri who's the ceo of instagram
50:54would have replied to jojo siwa when she
50:57said to him oh i've been on instagram
51:00since i was eight he said he didn't want
51:02to know that
51:04so it would be for this reason correct
51:06um
51:09a pattern of behavior that i saw at
51:11facebook was that often problems were
51:14so understaffed that there was a
51:17kind of an implicit discouragement from
51:19having better detection systems so for
51:21example i worked my last team at
51:23facebook was on the counter espionage
51:25team within the threat intelligence org
51:27and at any given time our team could
51:29only handle a third of the cases that we
51:31knew about
51:33we knew that if we built even a basic
51:35detector we would likely have many more
51:37cases okay then similarly
51:40yeah let me ask you this
51:42so you look at the way that they have
51:46the data but they're choosing to keep
51:48that data and advertise from it right
51:51you sell it to third parties
51:54so what does facebook do you've got
51:56these six hundred thousand accounts
51:59that ought not to be on there
52:02anymore
52:03and right
52:04but then you delete those accounts but
52:08what happens to that data does facebook
52:11keep that data do they keep it until
52:14those children go to age 13
52:17since as you're saying they can work
52:19backward and
52:20figure out the true age of a a user so
52:24what do
52:25they do with it do they delete it do
52:27they store it do they
52:29keep it how do they process that
52:32um
52:34i am
52:36my understanding of facebook's data
52:37retention policies and i want to be
52:39really clear i didn't work directly on
52:40that is that they delete when they
52:42delete an account they delete all the
52:43data then i believe 90k is in compliance
52:45with gdpr um i with regard to children
52:50underage on the platform facebook would
52:52do substantially more to detect more of
52:54those children and they should have to
52:55publish for congress those processes
52:58because there are lots of subtleties and
53:00those things and they can be much more
53:01effective than probably what they're
53:02doing today got it
53:04now staying with this underage children
53:07since this hearing is all about kids and
53:10about online privacy i want you to tell
53:14me
53:16how facebook is able to do market
53:19research
53:20on these children that are under age
53:2313 because mr davis was really
53:27she didn't deny this
53:29last week
53:31so
53:32how are they doing this do they
53:35bring kids into focus groups with their
53:37parents how do they get that permission
53:40she said they got permission from
53:42parents is there a permission slip
53:45or a form
53:47that gets assigned and then how do they
53:51know which kids to target
53:56there's a bunch to unpack there uh we'll
53:58start with maybe how did they recruit
54:00children for focus groups um or recruit
54:03teenagers most tech companies have
54:05systems where they can
54:08analyze the data that is on their
54:09servers so
54:11most of the focus groups i read
54:14or that i saw analysis of were around
54:17messenger kids
54:18which has children on it
54:20um
54:21and those focus groups appear to be
54:23children interacting in person
54:25um
54:26often large tech companies use either
54:29sourcing agencies that will go and
54:30identify people who meet certain
54:32demographic criteria or they will reach
54:34out directly based on uh data on the
54:37platform so for example on the case of
54:39messenger kids maybe you would want to
54:41study a child that was an active user
54:43and one that was a less active user you
54:45might reach out to some that came from
54:46each population and so these are
54:48children that are under age 13. yeah and
54:52they know it
54:53um for for some of these studies and i
54:55assume they get i assume they get
54:56permission but i don't work on that okay
54:59well we're still waiting to get a copy
55:01of that parental consent form
55:04that would involve children um my time
55:06is expired mr chairman i'll say my other
55:08questions for our second round if we're
55:10able to get those thank you great thank
55:12you senator blackburn senator klobuchar
55:15thank you very much mr chairman thank
55:16you so much miss hagan for shedding a
55:18light on how facebook time and time
55:21again has put profit over people
55:24uh when their own research found that
55:25more than 13 percent of teen girls say
55:28that instagram made their thoughts of
55:30suicide worse what did they do they
55:32proposed instagram for kids which has
55:34now been put on pause because of public
55:36pressure
55:38when they found out that their
55:39algorithms are fostering polarization
55:42misinformation and hate
55:45um that they allowed 99 percent of their
55:48violent contact to remain unchecked on
55:50their platform including
55:52lead up to the january 6 insurrection
55:56what did they do
55:57they now as we know mark zuckerberg is
56:00going sailing and saying no apologies
56:03i think the time has come for action and
56:06i think you are the catalyst for that
56:08action
56:09you have said privacy legislation is not
56:11enough i completely agree with you but i
56:13think you know we have not done anything
56:16to update our privacy laws in this
56:18country our federal privacy laws nothing
56:20zilch in any major way why because there
56:23are lobbyists around every single corner
56:26of this building that have been hired by
56:28the tech industry we have done nothing
56:30when it comes to making the algorithms
56:32more transparent allowing for the
56:34university research that you refer to
56:36why because facebook and the other tech
56:39companies are throwing a bunch of money
56:40around this town and people are
56:42listening to them we have done nothing
56:45significantly past although we are on a
56:47bipartisan basis working in the
56:50antitrust subcommittee to get something
56:51done in consolidation which you
56:53understand allows the dominant platforms
56:56um to control all this like the bullies
56:59in the neighborhood buy out the
57:01companies that maybe could have competed
57:03with them and added the bells and
57:04whistles so the time for action is now
57:07so i'll start i'll start with something
57:09that i asked facebook's head of safety
57:11when she testified before us last week i
57:14asked her how they estimate the lifetime
57:17value of a user for kids who start using
57:20their products before they turn 13. she
57:23evaded the question and said that's not
57:25the way we think about it
57:27is that right or is it your experience
57:29that facebook estimates and that and
57:32puts a value on how much money they get
57:35from users in general i'll get to kids
57:37in a second is that a motivating force
57:39for them
57:40um
57:42based on what i saw in terms of
57:44allocation of integrity spending so one
57:46of the things disclosed in the wall
57:47street journal was that i believe it's
57:48like 87 of all the misinformation
57:50spending is spent on english but only
57:52about like nine percent of the users are
57:55english speakers um it seems that that
57:58facebook invests more and users who make
58:00them more money
58:02even though the danger may not be evenly
58:03distributed based on profitability does
58:05it make sense that having a younger
58:08person get hooked on social media
58:10at a young age makes them more
58:12profitable over the long term as they
58:14have a life ahead of them facebook's
58:16internal documents talk about the
58:18importance of getting younger users for
58:20example tweens onto instagram like
58:22instagram kids because they need to have
58:25um
58:27like they know that children bring their
58:28parents online and things like that and
58:30so they understand the value of younger
58:32users for the long-term success of
58:34facebook facebook reported advertising
58:37revenue to be
58:3851.58 cents per user last quarter in the
58:42us and canada uh when i asked ms davis
58:45how much of that came from instagram
58:47users under 18 she wouldn't say do you
58:50think that teens are profitable for
58:52their company i would assume so based on
58:54advertising for things like television
58:56uh do you get much substantially higher
58:58advertising rates for customers who
58:59don't yet have preferences or habits and
59:02so i'm sure they are some of the more
59:04profitable users on facebook but i do
59:05not work directly on that
59:07another major issue that's come out of
59:09this uh eating disorders
59:11studies have found that eating disorders
59:13actually have the highest mortality rate
59:16of any mental illness
59:18for women and i led a bill on this with
59:20centers capital and baldwin that we
59:23passed into law
59:24and i'm concerned that this algorithms
59:26that they have pushes outrageous content
59:30promoting anorexia and the like i know
59:32it's personal to you
59:34uh do you think that their algorithms
59:36push some of this content to young girls
59:39facebook knows that they're the
59:42engagement based ranking the way that
59:43they pick the content in instagram for
59:46young users for all users
59:48um amplifies preferences and they have
59:50done something called a proactive a
59:52proactive incident response
59:54where they take things they've heard for
59:56example like
59:58can you be led by the algorithms to
1:00:00anorexia content and they have literally
1:00:02recreated that experiment themselves and
1:00:04confirmed yes this this happens to
1:00:05people so facebook knows that they are
1:00:08that they are leading young users to
1:00:10anorexia content
1:00:11do you think they are deliberately
1:00:13designing their product to be addictive
1:00:15beyond even that content
1:00:18uh facebook has a long history of having
1:00:20a successful and very effective growth
1:00:23division
1:00:24where they take little tiny tweaks and
1:00:25they constantly constantly constantly
1:00:27are trying to optimize it to grow
1:00:30those kinds of stickiness could be
1:00:32construed as things that facilitate
1:00:33addiction right last thing i'll ask is
1:00:36we've seen this same kind of content in
1:00:38the political
1:00:39world you brought up other countries and
1:00:41what's been happening there on 60
1:00:43minutes you said that facebook
1:00:44implemented safeguards to reduce
1:00:46misinformation ahead of the 2020
1:00:48election but turned off those safeguards
1:00:51right after the election
1:00:54and you know that the insurrection
1:00:55occurred january 6 do you think that
1:00:57facebook turned off the safeguards
1:00:59because they were costing the company
1:01:01money because it was reducing profits
1:01:04facebook has been emphasizing a false
1:01:06choice they've said
1:01:08the safeguards that were in place before
1:01:10the election
1:01:11uh implicated free speech the choices
1:01:13that were happening on the platform were
1:01:15really about how reactive and twitchy
1:01:17was the platform right like how viral
1:01:20was the platform and facebook
1:01:22changed those safety defaults in the
1:01:24run-up to the election because they knew
1:01:26they were dangerous
1:01:27and because they wanted that growth back
1:01:29they wanted the acceleration of the
1:01:31platform back after the election they
1:01:33they returned to their original defaults
1:01:35and the fact that they had to break the
1:01:37glass on january 6th and turn them back
1:01:39on
1:01:40i think that's deeply problematic
1:01:42agree thank you very much for your
1:01:44bravery and coming forward
1:01:47senator thune
1:01:49thank you mr chair and
1:01:51ranking member blackburn
1:01:53i've been arguing for some time that it
1:01:56is time for congress to act and i think
1:01:58the question is always what is the
1:02:01correct way to do it the right way to do
1:02:02it consistent with
1:02:04our first amendment right to free speech
1:02:08this committee
1:02:10doesn't have jurisdiction over the
1:02:11antitrust issue that's the judiciary
1:02:13committee and i'm not averse to looking
1:02:14at the monopolistic
1:02:16nature of facebook honestly i think
1:02:18that's a real issue that needs to be
1:02:19examined and perhaps addressed as well
1:02:22but at least under this committee's
1:02:23jurisdiction there are a couple of
1:02:24things i think we can do and i have a
1:02:27piece of legislation and senators
1:02:28blackburn and blumenthal are both
1:02:30co-sponsors
1:02:32called the filter bubble transparency
1:02:34act and essentially what it would do is
1:02:35give users the options
1:02:37to engage with social media platforms
1:02:40without being manipulated uh by these
1:02:43secret formulas that essentially dictate
1:02:45the content that you see when you open
1:02:47up an app or log on to a website
1:02:50um we also i think need to hold big tech
1:02:53accountable by reforming section 230
1:02:56and one of the best opportunities i
1:02:58think to do that at least for in a
1:02:59bipartisan way is the platform
1:03:01accountability and consumer transparency
1:03:03or the pact act and that's legislation
1:03:05that i've co-sponsored with senator
1:03:07schatz
1:03:08which in addition to stripping section
1:03:10230 protections for content that a court
1:03:12determines to be illegal
1:03:14the pact act would also increase
1:03:16transparency and due process for users
1:03:18around the content moderation
1:03:20process and importantly in the context
1:03:23we're talking about today with this
1:03:24hearing with a major big tech
1:03:27whistleblower the packed act would
1:03:28explore the viability
1:03:30of a federal program for big tech
1:03:32employees to blow the whistle on
1:03:33wrongdoing inside the companies where
1:03:35they work
1:03:36in my view we should encourage employees
1:03:38in the tech sector like you to speak up
1:03:40about
1:03:41questionable practices of big tech
1:03:43companies so we can among other things
1:03:45ensure that americans are fully aware of
1:03:47how social media platforms are using
1:03:49artificial intelligence and opaque
1:03:51algorithms to keep them hooked on the
1:03:54platform
1:03:55so let me ms halgen just ask you we've
1:03:58learned from the information that you've
1:03:59provided that facebook conducts what's
1:04:01called engagement based ranking
1:04:04which you've described is very dangerous
1:04:06could you talk more about why engagement
1:04:08based ranking is dangerous and do you
1:04:10think congress
1:04:11should seek to pass legislation like the
1:04:13filter bubble transparency act that
1:04:15would give users the ability to avoid
1:04:18engagement based ranking altogether
1:04:22facebook is going to say
1:04:24you don't want to give up engagement
1:04:25based ranking you're not going to like
1:04:27facebook as much if we're not picking
1:04:29out the content for you
1:04:32that's that's just not true there are a
1:04:34lot of facebook likes to present things
1:04:36as false choices like you have to choose
1:04:38between having lots of spam like let's
1:04:40say imagine we ordered our feeds by time
1:04:42like on imessage or on um
1:04:46there are other forms of social media
1:04:47that are chronologically based
1:04:50they're gonna say you're gonna get spam
1:04:51you're gonna get spammed like you're not
1:04:53going to enjoy your feed
1:04:54the reality is that those experiences
1:04:56have a lot of permutations there are
1:04:58ways that we can make those experiences
1:05:00where computers don't regulate what we
1:05:02see
1:05:03we together socially regulate what we
1:05:05see
1:05:06but they don't want us to have that
1:05:07conversation because facebook knows that
1:05:09when they pick out their content that we
1:05:12focus on using computers we spend more
1:05:14time on their platform they make more
1:05:16money
1:05:17um
1:05:18the dangers of engagement based ranking
1:05:20are that facebook knows
1:05:23that content that elicits an extreme
1:05:26reaction from you is more likely to get
1:05:27a click a comment or reshare
1:05:30and it's interesting because those
1:05:32clicks and comments and reshares aren't
1:05:33even necessarily for your benefit it's
1:05:35because they know that other people will
1:05:38produce more content if they get the
1:05:40likes and comments and ratios they
1:05:42prioritize content in your feed so you
1:05:44will give little hints of dopamine to
1:05:46your friends so they will create more
1:05:48content and they have run experiments on
1:05:50people produce their site experiments
1:05:53where they have confirmed this
1:05:55so
1:05:56you you and your um
1:05:58part of the information you provided the
1:05:59wall street journal uh it's been found
1:06:02that facebook altered its algorithm in
1:06:03an attempt to boost these meaningful
1:06:05social interactions or msi
1:06:08but rather than strengthening bonds
1:06:10between family and friends on the
1:06:11platform the algorithm instead rewarded
1:06:13more outrage and sensationalism and i
1:06:16think facebook would say that its
1:06:17algorithms are used to connect
1:06:18individuals with other friends and
1:06:20family that are largely positive
1:06:22do you believe that facebook's
1:06:24algorithms make its platform a better
1:06:27place for most users and should
1:06:29consumers
1:06:30have the option
1:06:31to use facebook and instagram without
1:06:33being manipulated by algorithms designed
1:06:36to keep them
1:06:37engaged on that platform i strongly
1:06:39believe like i've spent most of my
1:06:41career working on systems like
1:06:43engagement based ranking like when i
1:06:44come to you and say these things i'm
1:06:46basically damning 10 years of my own
1:06:48work right
1:06:49um
1:06:50engagement based ranking facebook says
1:06:52we can do it safely because we have ai
1:06:55you know the artificial intelligence
1:06:57will find the bad content that we know
1:06:59our engagement-based ranking is
1:07:00promoting they've written blog posts on
1:07:02how they know engagement-based ranking's
1:07:04dangerous but the ai will save us
1:07:07facebook's own research says they cannot
1:07:09adequately identify dangerous content
1:07:12and as a result those dangerous
1:07:13algorithms that they admit are picking
1:07:16up the the the extreme sentiments the
1:07:18division
1:07:20they can't protect us from the harms
1:07:21that they know exist in their own system
1:07:24and so i i i don't think it's just a
1:07:26question of saying should people have
1:07:27the option of choosing to not be
1:07:29manipulated by their algorithms
1:07:31i think if we had appropriate oversight
1:07:33or if we were formed 230 to make
1:07:35facebook responsible for the
1:07:37consequences of their intentional
1:07:39ranking decisions
1:07:41i think they would they would get rid of
1:07:42engagement based ranking because it is
1:07:45causing um teenagers to be exposed to
1:07:47more anorexia content it is pulling
1:07:49families apart and in places like
1:07:51ethiopia it's literally fanning ethnic
1:07:53violence
1:07:55i encourage reform of these platforms
1:07:58not not
1:07:59picking and choosing individual ideas
1:08:01instead making the platforms themselves
1:08:04safer less twitchy less reactive less
1:08:06viral because that's how we scalably
1:08:09solve these problems
1:08:10thank you miss chair i i would uh simply
1:08:12say let's uh let's get to work so we got
1:08:15some things we can do here thanks i
1:08:17agree thank you uh senator shot
1:08:19thank you mr chairman ranking member
1:08:21thank you for your courage in coming
1:08:24forward
1:08:25was there a particular moment
1:08:26when you came to the conclusion
1:08:29that
1:08:30reform from the inside was impossible
1:08:32and that you decided to be a
1:08:33whistleblower
1:08:37there was a long series of moments where
1:08:39i became aware that uh facebook went
1:08:42faced with conflicts of interest between
1:08:44its own profits and the common good
1:08:46public safety that facebook consistently
1:08:48chose to prioritize its profits
1:08:51i think the moment which i realized
1:08:53we needed to get help from the outside
1:08:55that the only way these problems would
1:08:57be solved is by solving them together
1:08:58not solving them alone was when civic
1:09:01integrity was dissolved following the
1:09:032020 election it really felt like a
1:09:06betrayal of the promises that facebook
1:09:08had made to people who had sacrificed a
1:09:10great deal to keep the election safe
1:09:12by basically dissolving our community
1:09:15and integrating in just other parts of
1:09:17the company and when i know their their
1:09:19response is that they've sort of
1:09:21distributed the duties yeah that's an
1:09:24excuse right
1:09:25um
1:09:26i i cannot see into the hearts of other
1:09:28men and i i i don't know what let me say
1:09:32it this way it won't work right i i i
1:09:35can tell you that when i left the
1:09:36company so my the people who i worked
1:09:38with were disproportionately maybe
1:09:4075 of my pod of seven people um
1:09:45those are product managers program
1:09:46managers most of them had come from
1:09:48civic integrity
1:09:49all of us left
1:09:52the inauthentic behavior pod uh either
1:09:54for other parts of the company or the
1:09:56company entirely over the same six-week
1:09:58period of time so six months after the
1:10:00reorganization we had clearly lost faith
1:10:02that those changes were coming
1:10:04you said in your opening statement that
1:10:06they know how to make facebook and
1:10:08instagram
1:10:10safer so
1:10:11thought experiment you are now
1:10:14the chief executive officer and chairman
1:10:16of the company
1:10:18what changes would you immediately
1:10:19institute
1:10:21um i
1:10:22would immediately
1:10:24establish a policy of how to share
1:10:26information and research from inside the
1:10:28company with appropriate oversight
1:10:30bodies like congress
1:10:32i would
1:10:33i would give proposed legislation to
1:10:35congress saying here's what an effective
1:10:37oversight agency would look like
1:10:39i would actively engage with academics
1:10:41to make sure that that
1:10:43people who are
1:10:44who are confirming our facebook's
1:10:46marketing messages true have the
1:10:48information they need to confirm these
1:10:49things
1:10:50and i would um immediately implement the
1:10:54quote soft interventions that were
1:10:56identified to protect the 2020 election
1:10:58so that's things like requiring someone
1:11:00to click on a link before re-sharing it
1:11:02because other companies like twitter
1:11:04have found that that significantly
1:11:06reduces misinformation no one is
1:11:08censored by being forced to click on a
1:11:10link before re-sharing it
1:11:12thank you i want to pivot back to uh
1:11:15instagram's uh targeting of kids we all
1:11:18know that they announced a pause
1:11:20but that reminds me of what they
1:11:22announced
1:11:24uh
1:11:24when they were gonna issue a digital
1:11:27currency and they got beat up by the u.s
1:11:29senate banking committee and they said
1:11:31never mind
1:11:33and now they're coming back around
1:11:34hoping that nobody notices that they
1:11:37are going to try to issue a currency now
1:11:39let's set aside for the moment
1:11:41the sort of
1:11:43the the business model which appears to
1:11:45be gobble up everything do everything
1:11:47that's the gross growth strategy
1:11:50do you believe that they're actually
1:11:51going to discontinue instagram kids or
1:11:53they're just waiting for the dust to
1:11:55settle
1:11:57um
1:11:58i would be sincerely surprised if they
1:12:00do not continue working on instagram
1:12:02kids and i would be amazed if a year
1:12:04from now we don't have this conversation
1:12:05again
1:12:06why
1:12:09facebook understands that if they want
1:12:11to continue to grow they have to find
1:12:13new users they have to make sure that
1:12:15that the next generation is just as
1:12:17engaged with instagram as the current
1:12:19one
1:12:20and the way they'll do that is by making
1:12:22sure that children
1:12:24establish habits before they have good
1:12:26self-regulation by hooking kids by
1:12:28hooking kids
1:12:31i would like to emphasize when the
1:12:32documents that we send in on problematic
1:12:34use examined the rates of problematic
1:12:36use by age and that peaked with 14 year
1:12:39olds it's just like cigarettes teenagers
1:12:42don't have good self-regulation they say
1:12:44explicitly
1:12:46i feel bad when i use instagram and yet
1:12:48i can't stop um we need to protect the
1:12:51kids
1:12:52uh just my final question i have a long
1:12:54list of
1:12:56misstatements misdirections
1:12:58and outright lies from the company i
1:13:01don't have time to read them but you're
1:13:04as intimate with all these
1:13:06deceptions as i am so i will just jump
1:13:09to the end
1:13:10uh
1:13:11if you were
1:13:13a member of this panel would you believe
1:13:15what facebook is saying
1:13:17i would not believe
1:13:19uh facebook has not earned our right to
1:13:22just have blind trust in them
1:13:24trust is last week one of the most
1:13:26beautiful things i heard on the on the
1:13:27committee was um
1:13:29trust is earned and facebook has not
1:13:32earned our trust
1:13:33thank you
1:13:36thanks senator schatz uh senator
1:13:39moran uh and then
1:13:41we've been joined by the chair
1:13:43senator cantwell she'll be next we're
1:13:45going to break it about 11 30 if that's
1:13:47okay because we have a vote
1:13:51and then we'll reconvene
1:13:54mr chairman thank you the conversation
1:13:57so far reminds me that you and i ought
1:13:58to resolve our differences and
1:14:00introduce legislation so as senator
1:14:03thune said let's go to work
1:14:04our differences are very minor
1:14:07or they seem very minor in the face of
1:14:10the
1:14:11revelations that we've now seen so i'm
1:14:13hoping we can move forward senator i i
1:14:15share that view mr chairman thank you
1:14:18uh thank you very much uh for your
1:14:20testimony
1:14:21uh what examples do you know we've
1:14:23talked about particularly children
1:14:25teenage girls in
1:14:27specifically but what other examples do
1:14:30you know about where facebook or
1:14:32instagram
1:14:33knew its decisions would be harmful
1:14:36to its users but still proceeded with
1:14:39the with the
1:14:40plan and executed those harmful uh
1:14:45that harmful behavior
1:14:47facebook's internal research is aware
1:14:49that there are a variety of problems
1:14:50facing children on instagram that are um
1:14:54uh
1:14:57they know that severe harm is happening
1:14:59to children for example in the case of
1:15:01bullying
1:15:02uh facebook knows that instagram
1:15:05dramatically changes the experience of
1:15:07high school so when we were in high
1:15:08school when i was in high school uh most
1:15:11kids you looked at me and changed your
1:15:12your awards
1:15:14sorry
1:15:15um
1:15:16when i was in high school you know or
1:15:18most kids have positive home lives like
1:15:20it doesn't matter how bad it is at
1:15:21school
1:15:22kids can go home and reset for 16 hours
1:15:26kids kids who are bullied on instagram
1:15:29the bullying follows them home it
1:15:31follows them into their bedrooms the
1:15:33last thing they see before they go to
1:15:35bed at night is someone being cruel to
1:15:36them or the first thing they see in the
1:15:37morning is someone being cruel to them
1:15:40kids are learning that their own friends
1:15:43like people who they care about them are
1:15:44cruel to them
1:15:46like think about how that's going to
1:15:47impact their domestic relationships when
1:15:49they become 20-somethings or
1:15:5030-somethings to believe that people who
1:15:52care about you are mean to you
1:15:54facebook knows that parents today
1:15:57because they didn't experience these
1:15:58things they never experienced this
1:15:59addictive experience with a piece of
1:16:01technology they give their children bad
1:16:03advice they say things like why don't
1:16:05you just stop using it
1:16:06and so that facebook's own research is
1:16:08aware that children express feelings of
1:16:11loneliness and struggling with these
1:16:13things because they can't even get
1:16:14support from their own parents
1:16:17i don't understand how facebook can know
1:16:18all these things and not
1:16:21escalate it to someone like congress for
1:16:23help and support and navigating these
1:16:25problems let me ask the question in a
1:16:27broader way besides teenagers or besides
1:16:29girls or besides youth
1:16:31are there other practices at facebook or
1:16:33instagram that are known to be harmful
1:16:36but yet are pursued
1:16:42facebook is aware that choices are made
1:16:45in establishing like meaningful social
1:16:47meaningful social interactions so
1:16:49engagement based ranking that didn't
1:16:51care if you bullied someone or committed
1:16:53hate speech in the comments that was
1:16:54meaningful
1:16:55they know that that change directly
1:16:57changed publishers behavior that
1:17:00companies like buzzfeed wrote it and
1:17:01said the content is most successful on
1:17:03our platform is some of the content
1:17:05we're most ashamed of
1:17:06you have a problem with your ranking and
1:17:08they did nothing they know that
1:17:10uh politicians are being forced to take
1:17:12positions they know their own
1:17:13constituents don't like or approve of
1:17:16because those are the ones that get
1:17:17distributed on facebook
1:17:19that's a huge huge negative impact the
1:17:22facebook also knows that they have
1:17:24admitted in public that engagement based
1:17:26ranking is dangerous without integrity
1:17:28and security systems but then not rolled
1:17:30out those integrity and security systems
1:17:32to most of the languages in the world
1:17:35and that's what causing things like
1:17:36ethnic violence in ethiopia thank you
1:17:39for your answer
1:17:40what is the magnitude of facebook's
1:17:43revenues or profits
1:17:45that come from
1:17:46the sale of user data oh i'm i'm sorry
1:17:50i've never worked on that i'm not aware
1:17:51thank you
1:17:53what regulations or legal actions by
1:17:56congress or by administrative action
1:17:59do you think would have the most
1:18:00consequence or would be feared most by
1:18:02facebook instagram or allied companies
1:18:06um i strongly encourage reforming
1:18:08section 230 to
1:18:10exempt decisions about algorithms right
1:18:14so um modifying 230 around content i
1:18:17think has uh it's very complicated
1:18:20because uh
1:18:22user generated content is something that
1:18:23companies have less control over they
1:18:26have a hundred percent control over
1:18:27their algorithms
1:18:29and facebook should not get a free pass
1:18:31on choices it makes to prioritize growth
1:18:33and virality and reactiveness over
1:18:36public safety
1:18:38they shouldn't get a free pass on that
1:18:39because they're paying for their profits
1:18:40right now with our safety
1:18:42so i strongly encourage reform of 230 in
1:18:45that way i also believe there needs to
1:18:47be a dedicated oversight body because
1:18:49right now the only people in the world
1:18:50who are trained to analyze these
1:18:52experiments to understand what's
1:18:54happening inside of facebook are people
1:18:56who you know grew up inside of facebook
1:18:58or pinterest or another social media
1:19:00company and there needs to be a
1:19:02regulatory home where someone like me
1:19:04could do a tour of duty after working at
1:19:06a place like this and and have a place
1:19:09to work on things like regulation to
1:19:11bring that information out to the
1:19:12oversight boards that that have the
1:19:14right to to do oversight a regulatory
1:19:17agency within the federal government yes
1:19:19thank you very much thank you chairman
1:19:22senator cantwell thank you mr chairman
1:19:24thank you for holding this hearing and i
1:19:26think my colleagues have brought up a
1:19:27lot of important issues and so i think i
1:19:29just want to continue on that vein
1:19:31first of all the privacy act that i
1:19:33introduced along with several of my
1:19:35colleagues actually does have ftc
1:19:38oversight of algorithm transparency in
1:19:41some instances i'd hope you take a look
1:19:42at that and tell us what other areas you
1:19:45think
1:19:46we should add to that level of
1:19:48transparency but um clearly that's the
1:19:51the issue at hand here i think in your
1:19:54coming forward so thank you again for
1:19:55your willingness to do that um the
1:19:58documentation that you say now exists
1:20:01is uh the level of transparency about
1:20:04what's going on that people haven't been
1:20:06able to see
1:20:07and so your information that you say has
1:20:10gone up to the highest levels
1:20:12at facebook is that they purposely knew
1:20:16that their algorithms were continuing to
1:20:19have misinformation and hate information
1:20:22and that
1:20:23when presented with information about
1:20:26this terminology
1:20:28you know downstream msi meaningful
1:20:30social information knowing that it was
1:20:33this choice you could continue this
1:20:35wrong-headed information hate
1:20:37information about the rohingya or you
1:20:40could continue to get higher
1:20:42click-through rates and i know you said
1:20:43you don't know about profits but i'm
1:20:44pretty sure you know that on a page if
1:20:46you click through that next page i'm
1:20:48pretty sure there's a lot more ad
1:20:50revenue than if you didn't click through
1:20:52so you're saying that documents exist
1:20:55that at the highest level
1:20:56at facebook you had
1:20:58information discussing these two choices
1:21:01and that people chose even though they
1:21:04knew that it was misinformation and
1:21:06hurtful and maybe even causing people
1:21:07lives they continued to choose profit
1:21:11we have submitted documents to congress
1:21:13outlining
1:21:14mark zuckerberg was directly presented
1:21:16with a list of quote soft interventions
1:21:19so a hard intervention is like taking a
1:21:21piece of content off facebook taking a
1:21:22user off facebook soft interventions are
1:21:25about making slightly different choices
1:21:27to make the platform less viral less
1:21:29twitchy
1:21:31mark was presented with these options
1:21:33and chose to not remove downstream msi
1:21:36in april of 2020 even though he in
1:21:39and even just isolated in at-risk
1:21:41countries that's countries at risk of
1:21:44violence
1:21:45um if it had any impact on the overall
1:21:48msi metric so he chose which in
1:21:51translation means less money yeah he he
1:21:54said right was there another
1:21:56reason given why they would do it other
1:21:58than they thought it would really affect
1:21:59their numbers um
1:22:02i don't don't know for certain like jeff
1:22:04jeff horowitz the report for the wall
1:22:05street journal i struggled with this we
1:22:07sat there and read these minutes and
1:22:09we're like how is this possible like
1:22:11we've just read
1:22:12100 pages on how downstream msi expands
1:22:16hate speech misinformation violence
1:22:18inciting content graphic violent content
1:22:21why wouldn't you get rid of this and we
1:22:23the best theory that we've come up with
1:22:24and i want to emphasize this is just our
1:22:26interpretation on it is people's bonuses
1:22:28are tied to msi
1:22:29right like people people stay or leave
1:22:31the company based on what they get paid
1:22:34and like if you hurt msi a bunch of
1:22:36people didn't weren't going to get their
1:22:38bonuses so you're saying that this
1:22:40practice even still continues today like
1:22:42we're still in this environment i'm
1:22:43personally
1:22:45very frustrated by this because we
1:22:47presented information to facebook from
1:22:50one of my own constituents in 2018
1:22:53talking about this issue with rohingya
1:22:56pleading with the company we pleaded
1:22:59with the company and they continue to
1:23:01not address this issue now you're
1:23:03pointing out that these same algorithms
1:23:06are being used and they know darn well
1:23:08in ethiopia that it's causing an
1:23:10inciting violence and again they are
1:23:12still today choosing profit over taking
1:23:14this information down is that correct
1:23:16when rioting began in the united states
1:23:18in the summer of last year they turned
1:23:20off downstream msi only for when they
1:23:23detected content was health content
1:23:25which is probably coveted and um civic
1:23:28content but facebook's own algorithms
1:23:30are bad at finding this content it's
1:23:32still in the raw form for 80 90 of of
1:23:36even that sensitive content in countries
1:23:38where they don't have integrity systems
1:23:40in the language local language and in
1:23:42the case of ethiopia there are 100
1:23:44million people in ethiopia in six
1:23:46languages facebook only supports two of
1:23:48those languages for integrity systems
1:23:51this strategy of focusing on language
1:23:53specific content specific systems ai to
1:23:56save us is doomed to fail
1:23:59i need to get to one of first of all i'm
1:24:00sending a letter to facebook today they
1:24:02better not delete any information as it
1:24:03relates to the rohingya our
1:24:05investigations about how they proceeded
1:24:07on this particularly in light of your
1:24:09information or the documents but aren't
1:24:12we also now talking about advertising
1:24:14fraud are you selling something to
1:24:16advertisers that's not really what
1:24:18they're getting we know about this
1:24:20because of the newspaper issues we're
1:24:21trying to say that journalism that
1:24:23basically has to meet a different
1:24:25standard a public interest standard that
1:24:27basically is out there basically proving
1:24:29every day or they can be sued these guys
1:24:32are a social media platform that doesn't
1:24:34have to live with that and then the
1:24:36consequences they're telling their
1:24:37advertisers that this was we see it we
1:24:40see it people are coming back to the
1:24:41local journalism because they're like we
1:24:43want to be against with a trusted brand
1:24:45we don't want to be in you know your
1:24:47website so i i think your finding for
1:24:49the
1:24:50sec
1:24:51is an interesting one but i think that
1:24:52we also have to look at what are the
1:24:54other issues here and one of them is did
1:24:56you defraud did they defraud advertisers
1:24:58and telling them this was the
1:24:59advertising content that you were going
1:25:00to be advertising and when in reality
1:25:02was something different it was based on
1:25:03a different model we have multiple
1:25:05examples of um question and answers for
1:25:08the advertising staff the sales staff
1:25:11where advertisers say after the riots
1:25:13last summer we're asked should we come
1:25:15back to facebook or after the
1:25:16insurrection like should we come back to
1:25:18facebook um and facebook said in their
1:25:21talking points that they gave to
1:25:22advertisers we're doing everything in
1:25:24our power to make this safer or we take
1:25:26down all the hate speech when we find it
1:25:28but facebook's own and that was not true
1:25:30that was not true they get three to five
1:25:31percent of hate speech thank you thank
1:25:33you mr chairman
1:25:35thanks senator cantwell um and if you
1:25:38want to make your letter available to
1:25:40other members of the committee i'd be
1:25:42glad to join you myself thank you
1:25:43thank you thank you for suggesting it
1:25:46thank you um
1:25:48senator lee
1:25:50thank you mr chairman and thank you ms
1:25:52haugen for joining us this week it's
1:25:55very very helpful we're grateful that
1:25:57you're willing to make yourself
1:25:58available
1:26:00last week we had another witness from
1:26:02facebook
1:26:03ms davis she came and she testified
1:26:06before this committee and she focused on
1:26:09among other things the extent to which
1:26:11facebook targets ads to children
1:26:14including ads
1:26:15that are either sexually suggestive or
1:26:17geared toward adult themed
1:26:20products or themes in general
1:26:22now i didn't i i well i appreciated her
1:26:25willingness to be here i didn't
1:26:27get the clearest answers
1:26:29in response to some of those questions
1:26:30and so i'm hoping that you can help shed
1:26:33some light on some of those issues
1:26:35related to facebook's advertising
1:26:37processes here today as we get into this
1:26:39i want to first read you a quote
1:26:42that i got from from ms davis uh last
1:26:44week
1:26:45um here's what she said during her
1:26:47questioning quote
1:26:49when we do ads to young people there are
1:26:52only three things that an advertiser can
1:26:54target around age
1:26:56gender location
1:26:58we also prohibit certain ads to young
1:27:00people including weight loss ads
1:27:02we don't allow tobacco ads at all
1:27:05meaning to young people we don't allow
1:27:07them to children we don't allow them to
1:27:09minors close quote
1:27:11now since that exchange happened
1:27:14last week
1:27:15there are a number of individuals and
1:27:17groups including a group called the
1:27:19technology transparency project or tdp
1:27:23that have indicated that
1:27:25that part of our testimony was
1:27:26inaccurate that it was false
1:27:28tdp noted that
1:27:30tdp had conducted an experiment
1:27:33um
1:27:34just last month
1:27:36and their their goal was to
1:27:38run a series of ads that
1:27:41would be targeted to children ages 13 to
1:27:4417. to users in the united states now i
1:27:48want to emphasize that tdp didn't end up
1:27:51running these ads
1:27:54they stopped them from being distributed
1:27:56to
1:27:57the users
1:27:58but facebook did in fact approve them
1:28:00and as i understand it facebook approved
1:28:02them for an audience of up to 9.1
1:28:05million users all of whom were teens so
1:28:08i brought a few of these to show you
1:28:09today this is this is the first one i
1:28:11wanted to showcase
1:28:12this first one has a colorful graphic
1:28:16uh
1:28:17encouraging kids to quote throw a
1:28:19skittles party like no other
1:28:22which
1:28:23you know as the graphic indicates and as
1:28:25as the slang jargon
1:28:27also independently suggests
1:28:29this involves
1:28:31kids getting together
1:28:33randomly to abuse prescription drugs
1:28:36the second graphic displays
1:28:38an anna tip
1:28:40that is
1:28:41a tip specifically designed to encourage
1:28:44and promote
1:28:46anorexia
1:28:47and um it's on there now the language
1:28:50the anatip itself
1:28:52independently promotes that the ad also
1:28:54promotes it in so far as it was
1:28:55suggesting
1:28:57these are images you ought to look at
1:28:59when you need motivation to be more
1:29:01anorexic i guess you could say
1:29:05now the third one invites children to
1:29:07find their partner online
1:29:10and to make a love connection you look
1:29:12lonely find your partner now to make a
1:29:14love connection now look it'd be an
1:29:16entirely different kettle of fish if
1:29:18this were targeted to an adult audience
1:29:20it is not it's targeted to 13
1:29:22to 17 year olds
1:29:24now
1:29:25obviously i don't support and and tdp
1:29:28does not support these messages
1:29:30particularly when targeted to
1:29:31impressionable children
1:29:33and and again just to be clear tdp did
1:29:36not end up pushing the ads
1:29:38out after receiving facebook's approval
1:29:41but it did in fact receive facebook's
1:29:44approval
1:29:45um so i i think this says something one
1:29:49could argue that it proves that facebook
1:29:51is allowing
1:29:53and and perhaps facilitating the
1:29:54targeting of harmful adult-themed ads
1:29:58to our nation's children
1:30:00so could you please explain to me uh ms
1:30:03haugen um
1:30:04how these ads
1:30:06uh
1:30:07with a target audience
1:30:09of 13 to 17 year old children
1:30:13how would they possibly be approved by
1:30:16facebook and is ai involved in that
1:30:20um
1:30:21i did not work directly on the ad
1:30:24approval system um
1:30:26what was resonant for me about your
1:30:28testimony is facebook
1:30:31has a deep focus on scale so scale is
1:30:34can we do things very cheaply for a huge
1:30:36number of people which is part of why
1:30:38they rely on ai so much it is very
1:30:40possible that none of those ads were
1:30:42seen by a human and the reality is that
1:30:44we've seen from repeated documents
1:30:46within my disclosures is that facebook's
1:30:48ai systems only catch a very tiny
1:30:51minority of offending content and best
1:30:54case scenario in the case of something
1:30:56like hate speech at most they will ever
1:30:58get 10 to 20
1:30:59in the case of children that means drug
1:31:01paraphernalia adds like that uh
1:31:04it's likely if they rely on computers
1:31:06and not humans they will also likely
1:31:09never get more than 10 to 20 percent of
1:31:10those ads interested mr chairman i've
1:31:12got one minor follow-up question would
1:31:14uh it should be easy to answer go ahead
1:31:17um
1:31:19so
1:31:20well facebook may
1:31:21claim
1:31:22that it only targets ads
1:31:24based on age gender and location
1:31:27even though
1:31:29these things uh seem to counteract that
1:31:32but let's set that aside for a minute
1:31:34um and that they're not basing ads
1:31:37uh based on specific interest categories
1:31:40does facebook still collect
1:31:42interest category data on teenagers
1:31:45even if they aren't at that moment
1:31:48targeting ads at teens based on those
1:31:51interest categories i think it's very
1:31:53important to differentiate between what
1:31:55targeting are advertisers allowed to
1:31:57specify and what targeting facebook may
1:32:00learn for an ad let's imagine you had
1:32:03some text on an ad it would likely
1:32:05extract out features that it thought was
1:32:07relevant for that ad for example
1:32:10in the case of something about partying
1:32:12it would learn partying is a concept
1:32:15i'm very suspicious that personalized
1:32:17ads are still not being delivered
1:32:19to teenagers on instagram because the
1:32:22algorithms learn correlations they learn
1:32:24interactions where your party ad may
1:32:27still go to kids interested in partying
1:32:30because facebook is prof is almost
1:32:32certainly
1:32:33has a ranking model in the background
1:32:35that it says this person wants more
1:32:37party related content
1:32:39interesting
1:32:40thank you that's very helpful and what
1:32:42that suggests to me is that while
1:32:43they're they're saying they're not
1:32:44targeting
1:32:45teens with those ads the algorithm might
1:32:48do some of that work for them which
1:32:50might explain why they collect the data
1:32:52even while claiming that they're not
1:32:54targeting those ads in that way i can't
1:32:55speak to whether or not that's the
1:32:56intention but the reality is it's very
1:32:58very very difficult to understand these
1:33:00algorithms today and
1:33:03over and over and over again we saw
1:33:05these biases the algorithms
1:33:06unintentionally learn and so yeah it's
1:33:09very hard to just disentangle out these
1:33:11factors as long as you have engagement
1:33:13based ranking thank you ms halkin
1:33:16thank you very much senator lee uh
1:33:19senator uh marky thank you mr chairman
1:33:22very much um
1:33:25thank you ms hogan you you are a 21st
1:33:29century american hero
1:33:31warning our country of the danger
1:33:34for young people
1:33:36for our democracy and our nation owes
1:33:38you
1:33:40uh
1:33:40a
1:33:41just a huge
1:33:43debt of gratitude for the courage you're
1:33:45showing here today so thank you
1:33:47um
1:33:48miss hogan um do you agree that facebook
1:33:50actively seeks to attract children and
1:33:52teens onto its platforms
1:33:55and facebook actively markets to
1:33:57children or markets to children under
1:33:59the age of 18 um to get on instagram and
1:34:02definitely uh targets children as young
1:34:04as eight to be on um
1:34:06in messenger kids an internal facebook
1:34:09document from 2020 that you reveal reads
1:34:11why do we care about tweens they are a
1:34:14valuable but untapped audience so
1:34:18facebook only cares about children to
1:34:20the extent that they are of monetary
1:34:23value
1:34:24last week facebook's global head of
1:34:26safety uh antigone
1:34:29davis told me that facebook does not
1:34:32allow targeting of certain harmful
1:34:35content to teens ms davis stated we
1:34:38don't allow weight loss ads to be shown
1:34:40to people under the age of 18. yet a
1:34:43recent study found that facebook
1:34:45permitted targeting of teens as young as
1:34:4713 with ads that showed a young woman's
1:34:50thin waist promoting websites that
1:34:52glorify anorexia ms hogan
1:34:55based on your time at facebook do you
1:34:57think facebook is telling the truth
1:35:00i think facebook
1:35:02has focused on scale over safety
1:35:05and it is likely that they are using
1:35:08artificial intelligence to try to
1:35:10identify harmful ads without allowing
1:35:13the public oversight to see what is the
1:35:15actual effectiveness of those safety
1:35:17systems you unearthed uh facebook's
1:35:20research about its harm to teens did you
1:35:22raise this issue with your supervisors
1:35:25um i did not work directly on anything
1:35:28involving teen mental health this
1:35:30research was freely available to anyone
1:35:31in the company
1:35:33mr davis testified last week quote we
1:35:36don't allow tobacco ads at all we don't
1:35:38allow them
1:35:40to children either we don't allow
1:35:42alcohol ads to minors however
1:35:45researchers also found that facebook
1:35:47does allow targeting of teens with ads
1:35:50on vaping uh ms hogan based on your time
1:35:53at facebook do you think facebook is
1:35:55telling the truth
1:35:57um i do not have context on that that
1:35:59issue um i assume that if they are using
1:36:01artificial intelligence to catch those
1:36:03vape ads unquestionably ads are making
1:36:05its way through okay
1:36:07um so from my perspective listening to
1:36:10you and your incredibly courageous uh
1:36:13revelations time and time again facebook
1:36:16says one thing
1:36:17and does another
1:36:19time and time again facebook fails to
1:36:20abide by the commitments that they had
1:36:23made time and time again facebook lies
1:36:27about what they are doing yesterday
1:36:29facebook had a platform outage but for
1:36:32years it has had a principles outage
1:36:35its only real principle is profit
1:36:38facebook's platforms are not safe for
1:36:40young people as you said facebook is
1:36:42like big tobacco
1:36:44enticing young kids with that first
1:36:46cigarette
1:36:47that first social media account designed
1:36:49to hook kids as users for life
1:36:52ms hogan you know whistleblowing shows
1:36:54that facebook uses harmful features that
1:36:56quantify popularity push manipulative
1:37:00influencer marketing amplify harmful
1:37:03content to teens
1:37:06and last week in this committee facebook
1:37:09wouldn't even commit
1:37:10to not using these features on 10 year
1:37:13goals
1:37:14facebook is built on computer codes
1:37:17of
1:37:18misconduct senator blumenthal and i
1:37:22have introduced the kids internet design
1:37:25and safety act
1:37:26the kids act
1:37:28you have asked us
1:37:30to act as a committee
1:37:32and facebook has scores of lobbyists in
1:37:35the city right now coming in right after
1:37:37this hearing to tell us we can't ask
1:37:41and they've been successful
1:37:43for a decade
1:37:44in blocking this committee from acting
1:37:47so
1:37:48let me ask you a question
1:37:50the kids internet design and safety act
1:37:53are the kids act here's what the
1:37:54legislation does
1:37:55it includes outright bans on children's
1:37:59app features that one quantify
1:38:02popularity with likes and follow
1:38:04accounts
1:38:05promotes two
1:38:07uh that two promotes influencer
1:38:10marketing and three that amplifies uh
1:38:14toxic posts and that it would prohibit
1:38:17facebook from using its algorithms to
1:38:20promote toxic
1:38:21posts should we pass that legislation
1:38:25i strongly encourage reforms that push
1:38:28us towards human scale social media and
1:38:30not computer driven social media
1:38:33those amplification harms are caused by
1:38:35computers choosing what's important to
1:38:37us not our friends and family and i
1:38:39encourage any system that children are
1:38:41exposed to to not use amplification
1:38:44systems so you agree
1:38:46that congress has to enact these special
1:38:48protections for children and teens that
1:38:50stop social media companies from
1:38:52manipulating young users and threatening
1:38:54their well-being to stop using its
1:38:57algorithm to harm kids you'll give that
1:39:00i i do believe congress must act protect
1:39:03children
1:39:04and children and teens also needed
1:39:05privacy online bill of rights i'm the
1:39:08author of the children's online privacy
1:39:10protection act of 1998
1:39:13but it's only for kids under 13 because
1:39:15the industry stopped me from making at
1:39:17age 16. in
1:39:191998
1:39:21because it was already their business
1:39:22model but we need to update that law for
1:39:25the 21st century
1:39:26tell me if this should pass one create
1:39:29an online eraser button so that young
1:39:31users can tell websites to delete the
1:39:34data they've collected about them
1:39:36to give young teens under the age of 16
1:39:40and their parents control of their
1:39:42information and three ban targeted ads
1:39:46to children
1:39:48i support all those actions thank you
1:39:51and
1:39:52and finally i've also introduced the
1:39:54algorithmic justice
1:39:56and online platform transparency act
1:40:00which would one
1:40:02open the hood
1:40:03on facebook and big text algorithms so
1:40:07we know how facebook
1:40:09is using our data to decide what content
1:40:13we see and two band discriminatory
1:40:17algorithms that harm vulnerable
1:40:19populations online like showing
1:40:21employment and housing ads to white
1:40:25people but not to black
1:40:28people in our country should congress
1:40:30pass that bill
1:40:33algorithmic bias issues are a major
1:40:35issue for our democracy um during my
1:40:37time at pinterest i became very um
1:40:40aware of the challenges of like i
1:40:43mentioned before it's difficult for us
1:40:44to understand how these algorithms
1:40:45actually act and perform facebook is
1:40:47aware of complaints today by people like
1:40:50african americans saying that reals
1:40:52doesn't give
1:40:54african americans the same distribution
1:40:56as white people and until we have
1:40:58transparency and our ability to confirm
1:41:01ourselves the facebook's marketing
1:41:03messages are true we will not have a
1:41:06system that is compatible with democracy
1:41:08so i i thank senator lee i agree with
1:41:11you
1:41:12uh in your line of questions i wrote
1:41:14facebook asking them to explain that
1:41:16discrepancy because facebook i think is
1:41:19lying about targeting 13 to 15 year olds
1:41:22so
1:41:23here's my message for mark zuckerberg
1:41:26your time of invading our privacy
1:41:29promoting toxic content and preying on
1:41:32children and teens is over
1:41:36congress will be taking action you can
1:41:39work with us
1:41:41or not work with us but we will not
1:41:43allow your company to harm our children
1:41:47and our families and our democracy any
1:41:50longer thank you mr hogan we will act
1:41:55thanks senator markey
1:41:57we're going to turn to senator blackburn
1:42:00and then uh
1:42:02we will take a break
1:42:05uh
1:42:06i know that
1:42:08there's some interest in another round
1:42:10of questions maybe
1:42:13well
1:42:14uh maybe we'll turn to senator lujan
1:42:17for his questions
1:42:19uh cruz and scott
1:42:21and we have others so we'll come back
1:42:23after the mr chairman
1:42:26i have to um go to sit in the chair um
1:42:29starting at noon today i don't uh we
1:42:31turn
1:42:32uh just
1:42:34you have to i do i have one question
1:42:37this relates to what uh mr markey was
1:42:41asking
1:42:42does facebook ever employ child
1:42:45psychologists or mental health
1:42:47professionals to deal with these
1:42:50children online issues that we're
1:42:53discussing
1:42:54facebook has many researchers with phds
1:42:57i assume some of them are uh i know that
1:43:00some have psychology degrees um i'm not
1:43:03sure if they are child specialists
1:43:04facebook also works with external
1:43:06agencies that are specialists at
1:43:08children's rights online
1:43:11senator lujan and then at the conclusion
1:43:14of senator lujan's questions we'll take
1:43:16a break we'll come back
1:43:20at noon
1:43:22thank you mr chairman and i appreciate
1:43:24the indulgence of the committee
1:43:26ms hogan last week the committee heard
1:43:28directly from miss
1:43:29davis the global head of safety for
1:43:32facebook
1:43:33during the hearing the company contested
1:43:36their own
1:43:37internal research as if it does not
1:43:40exist
1:43:41yes or no does facebook have internal
1:43:44research indicating that instagram harms
1:43:47teens
1:43:48particularly harming perceptions of body
1:43:51image
1:43:52which disproportionately affects young
1:43:54women
1:43:55yes facebook has extensive research on
1:43:57the impacts of its products on teenagers
1:43:59including young women thank you for
1:44:01confirming these reports
1:44:03last week i requested facebook make the
1:44:05basis of this research the dataset minus
1:44:08any personally identifiable information
1:44:11available to this committee
1:44:13do you believe it is important for
1:44:15transparency and safety that facebook
1:44:17release the basis of this internal
1:44:19research the core data set to allow for
1:44:22independent analysis
1:44:24i believe it is vitally important for
1:44:26our democracy that we establish
1:44:27mechanisms where facebook's internal
1:44:29research must be disclosed to the public
1:44:31on a regular basis and that we need to
1:44:33have privacy sensitive data sets that
1:44:36allow independent researchers to confirm
1:44:38whether or not facebook's marketing
1:44:40messages are actually true
1:44:42beyond this particular research should
1:44:43facebook make its internal primary
1:44:46research not just secondary slide decks
1:44:48of cherry pick data but the underlying
1:44:51data public by default can this be done
1:44:54in a way that respects user privacy
1:44:56i believe in collaboration with
1:44:57academics and other researchers that we
1:44:59can develop privacy conscious ways
1:45:02of exposing radically more data that is
1:45:04available today it is important for our
1:45:06ability to understand how algorithms
1:45:08work how facebook shapes the information
1:45:10we get to see that we have these data
1:45:12sets be publicly available for scrutiny
1:45:15is facebook capable of making the right
1:45:17decision here on its own or is
1:45:19regulation needed to create real
1:45:20transparency at facebook until
1:45:22incentives change at facebook we should
1:45:24not expect facebook to change we need
1:45:26action from congress
1:45:28last week i asked miss davis about
1:45:30shadow profiles for children on the site
1:45:32and she answered that no data is ever
1:45:34collected on children under 13 because
1:45:37they are not allowed to make accounts
1:45:39this tactfully ignores the issue
1:45:41facebook knows children use their
1:45:43platform however instead of seeing this
1:45:45as a problem to be solved facebook views
1:45:48this as a business opportunity um yes or
1:45:50no does facebook conduct research on
1:45:52children under 13 examining the business
1:45:55opportunities of connecting these young
1:45:57children to facebook's products i want
1:45:59to emphasize how vital it is that
1:46:01facebook should have to publish the
1:46:03mechanisms by which it tries to detect
1:46:05these children because they are on the
1:46:06platform in far greater numbers than
1:46:07anyone is aware um i do believe that or
1:46:10i am aware that facebook is doing
1:46:12research on children under the age of 13
1:46:14and they have those studies are included
1:46:16in my disclosure
1:46:18you have shared your concerns about how
1:46:19senior management at facebook has
1:46:22continuously prioritized revenue over
1:46:24potential user harm and safety and i
1:46:27have a few questions on facebook's
1:46:29decision making last week i asked miss
1:46:31davis quote has facebook ever found a
1:46:34change to its platform would potentially
1:46:37inflict harm on users but facebook moved
1:46:40forward because the change would also
1:46:42grow users or increase revenue ms davis
1:46:46said in response quote it's not been my
1:46:49experience at all at facebook that's
1:46:52just not how we would approach it yes or
1:46:54no has facebook ever found a feature on
1:46:57its platform harmed its users but the
1:46:59feature moved forward because it would
1:47:01also grow users or increase revenue
1:47:04facebook likes to paint that these
1:47:06issues are really complicated there are
1:47:08lots of simple issues for example
1:47:11requiring someone to click through on a
1:47:12link before you re-share it that's not a
1:47:15large imposition but it does decrease
1:47:17growth a tiny little amount because in
1:47:19some countries
1:47:20reshares make up 35 of all the content
1:47:23that people see
1:47:24facebook prioritized that content on the
1:47:26system the reshares over the impacts to
1:47:28misinformation hate speech or violence
1:47:30incitement
1:47:32did these decisions ever come from mark
1:47:34zuckerberg directly or from other senior
1:47:36management at facebook
1:47:38um we have a few choice documents that
1:47:42contain notes from briefings with mark
1:47:44zuckerberg where he chose um metrics
1:47:47defined by facebook like meaningful
1:47:49social interactions over changes that
1:47:51would have significantly decreased
1:47:53misinformation hate speech and other
1:47:54exciting content and this is the
1:47:56reference you shared earlier to miss
1:47:58cantwell april of uh 20 20. the soft
1:48:01interventions
1:48:02facebook appeared to be able to count on
1:48:04the silence of its workforce for a long
1:48:06time
1:48:07even as it knowingly continued practices
1:48:09and policies that continue to cause and
1:48:12amplify harm
1:48:14facebook content moderators have called
1:48:15out a culture of fear and secrecy within
1:48:18the company that prevented them from
1:48:20speaking out
1:48:22is there a culture of fear at facebook
1:48:23around whistleblowing and external
1:48:25accountability
1:48:26uh facebook has a culture that that that
1:48:29um emphasizes that that insularity is
1:48:33the path forward that if information is
1:48:36shared with the public it will just be
1:48:37misunderstood
1:48:39and i believe that relationship has to
1:48:40change the only way that we will solve
1:48:42these problems is by solving them
1:48:43together and we will have much better
1:48:45more democratic solutions if we do it
1:48:47collaboratively than in isolation and my
1:48:49final question is there a senior level
1:48:52executive at facebook like an inspector
1:48:54general who is responsible for ensuring
1:48:56complaints from facebook employees are
1:48:58taken seriously and that employees legal
1:49:01ethical and moral concerns receive
1:49:03consideration with the real possibility
1:49:06of instigating change to company
1:49:07policies
1:49:08um
1:49:09i'm not aware of that role um but the
1:49:12company is large and it may exist
1:49:14i appreciate that it's my understanding
1:49:16that there's a gentleman of by the name
1:49:19of roy austin who is the vice president
1:49:22of civil rights who's described himself
1:49:24as an inspector general but he does not
1:49:26have the authority to make these
1:49:28internal conflicts public the oversight
1:49:30board was created by facebook to review
1:49:32moderation policies related to public
1:49:35content specifically it was not created
1:49:37to allow employees to raise concerns um
1:49:40so again another area of interest i
1:49:42believe that we have to act on i thank
1:49:44you for coming forward today
1:49:46my pleasure
1:49:47happy to serve
1:49:52the committee is in recess
1:50:24hello
1:50:50over here
1:51:05uh
1:51:30i'm
1:51:34um
1:51:49um
1:52:05oh
1:52:25thank you
1:52:44christians
1:53:31foreign
1:53:41supposed
1:54:06thank you
1:54:10thank you
1:55:03foreign
1:55:41um
1:56:31uh
1:56:47uh
1:57:02um
1:57:59uh
1:58:12okay
1:58:29from
1:58:36oh my gosh
1:58:49yes
1:59:31okay
1:59:59okay
2:00:18me
2:01:07um
2:01:37hmm
2:02:02yeah yeah
2:02:21um
2:02:33okay
2:02:50uh
2:03:26foreign
2:04:24me
2:05:21great
2:06:06hey
2:06:30me
2:07:06foreign
2:07:12um
2:07:42foreign
2:08:14me
2:08:52foreign
2:09:10this is
2:09:54me
2:10:00um
2:10:16foreign
2:10:58um
2:11:37me
2:12:04yeah
2:12:06uh
2:12:35yes
2:13:21welcome back miss hogan thank you for
2:13:23your patience uh we're going to
2:13:25reconvene
2:13:27and we'll go to senator hickenlooper
2:13:32thank you mr chair thank you miss haugen
2:13:34for
2:13:34uh
2:13:35for your
2:13:37direct answers and for being willing to
2:13:39come out and
2:13:40you know
2:13:41provide such clarity on so many of these
2:13:43issues
2:13:46obviously facebook can manipulate its
2:13:48algorithms to attract users
2:13:52and i guess
2:13:54my question would be do you feel
2:13:56in your humble opinion that
2:13:58you know simply
2:14:00maximizing profits
2:14:02no matter the societal impact that that
2:14:04is justified
2:14:06um and i think
2:14:07the question then would be that that's
2:14:09the
2:14:09short question which i think i know the
2:14:11answer
2:14:12what impact uh facebook's bottom line
2:14:15would it have if the algorithm was
2:14:17changed to promote
2:14:18safety
2:14:20uh and to
2:14:22instead of
2:14:23to
2:14:24change to to to save the lives of young
2:14:27women rather than putting them at risk
2:14:33learning about the talk button
2:14:36facebook today
2:14:39has a profit
2:14:41makes approximately 40 billion dollars a
2:14:43year in profit
2:14:44a lot of the changes that i'm talking
2:14:45about are are not going to make uh
2:14:48facebook an unprofitable company it just
2:14:51won't be a ludicrously profitable
2:14:53company like it is today
2:14:55engagement based ranking which causes
2:14:56those amplification problems that leads
2:14:59young women from you know innocuous
2:15:00topics like healthy recipes to anorexia
2:15:03content
2:15:04if it were removed
2:15:06people would consume less content on
2:15:08facebook but facebook would still be
2:15:10profitable
2:15:11and so i i
2:15:13i encourage
2:15:14oversight and public scrutiny into how
2:15:17these algorithms work and the
2:15:18consequences of them
2:15:19right well
2:15:21and i appreciate that i um i'm a former
2:15:24small business owner i owned uh
2:15:27uh started a brew pub back in 1988
2:15:30uh
2:15:31and really was always
2:15:33we worked very hard to to look
2:15:37again we weren't doing investigations
2:15:38but we were very sensitive to whether
2:15:40someone had too much to drink whether we
2:15:42had a frequent customer who was
2:15:44frequently
2:15:45putting himself at risk and and others
2:15:47um
2:15:48obviously i think that the facebook
2:15:50business model puts uh
2:15:53well it poses risk to to youth and to
2:15:55and to teens uh you care compared to
2:15:58cigarette companies which i thought was
2:16:00rightfully so
2:16:02um
2:16:03if this i guess the question is is this
2:16:05level of risk appropriate uh or is there
2:16:09a level of risk that would be
2:16:11appropriate
2:16:13i think there is an opportunity to
2:16:14reframe some of these oversight actions
2:16:17so when we think of them as these
2:16:19trade-offs of like it's either
2:16:20profitability or safety i think that's a
2:16:22false choice and then reality the thing
2:16:24i'm asking for is a move from
2:16:26short-termism which is what facebook is
2:16:28run under today right is being led by
2:16:31metrics and not led by people
2:16:33and that with appropriate oversight and
2:16:35some of these constraints
2:16:37it's possible that facebook could
2:16:38actually be a much more profitable
2:16:40company five or ten years down the road
2:16:42because it wasn't as toxic and as many
2:16:44people quit it but that's one of those
2:16:46counterfactuals that we can't actually
2:16:47test
2:16:48so regulation might actually make
2:16:50facebook more profitable over the long
2:16:52term right that's often the case i think
2:16:54the same could be set for automobiles
2:16:56and go down the list
2:16:58of all those things
2:16:59that there's so much pushback in the
2:17:00beginning um i also thought that the
2:17:03um
2:17:04the question of
2:17:06of how do we assess the impact to their
2:17:09bottom line uh we had a representative
2:17:11facebook in here recently who talked
2:17:14about that eight out of ten uh facebook
2:17:16users feel their life is better and that
2:17:19their job is to get to ten out of ten
2:17:21maybe this is the two to twenty percent
2:17:24that they're missing i don't know how
2:17:25large that the demographic is of of
2:17:28people that are caught back up into this
2:17:30circus uh circuitous uh you know
2:17:34sense of of really taking them down into
2:17:37the wrong direction how many people that
2:17:39is do you have any idea um
2:17:43that quote last week was really shocking
2:17:44to me because i don't know if you're
2:17:46aware of this but in the case of
2:17:47cigarettes
2:17:48uh only about ten percent of people who
2:17:51smoke ever get lung cancer
2:17:53right um so the idea that you know
2:17:54twenty 20 of your users could be facing
2:17:56uh serious mental health issues and
2:17:58that's not a problem is shocking um i
2:18:00also want to emphasize for people that
2:18:02that eating disorders are serious right
2:18:04there are going to be women walking
2:18:05around this planet in 60 years with
2:18:07brittle bones because of choices that
2:18:09that facebook made around emphasizing
2:18:11profit today or they're going to be
2:18:12women
2:18:14in 20 years who want to have babies who
2:18:16can't because they're infertile as a
2:18:17result of eating disorders today they're
2:18:19serious
2:18:20and i think there's an opportunity here
2:18:22for having public oversight and public
2:18:24involvement especially in matters that
2:18:26impact children
2:18:27okay well thank you for being so direct
2:18:30on this and for stepping forward i yield
2:18:33back the floor chair
2:18:34thanks senator hickenlooper senator cruz
2:18:38thank you mr chairman miss haugen
2:18:40welcome thank you for your testimony
2:18:43uh when it concerns facebook there are a
2:18:45number of concerns that this committee
2:18:47and congress has been focused on two of
2:18:49the biggest have been facebook's
2:18:51intentional targeting of kids
2:18:54with content that is harmful to the
2:18:56children
2:18:58and then secondly in a discrete issue is
2:19:00the pattern of facebook and social media
2:19:02engaging in political censorship
2:19:05i want to start with the first issue
2:19:07targeting kids
2:19:09[Music]
2:19:10as you're aware and as indeed the
2:19:12documents that you provided indicated
2:19:17facebook
2:19:18according to the public reporting on it
2:19:20facebook's
2:19:21internal reports found that instagram
2:19:25makes quote body image issues worse
2:19:28for one in three teen girls
2:19:31and additionally it showed that quote 13
2:19:33of british users and six percent of
2:19:36american users
2:19:37trace their desire to kill themselves to
2:19:40instagram
2:19:41uh is that a fair and accurate
2:19:43characterization of what facebook's
2:19:46research concluded um i only know what i
2:19:49read in the documents that were included
2:19:51in my disclosure um that is that is an
2:19:54accurate description of the ones that i
2:19:55have read i
2:19:57because facebook has not come forward
2:19:59with the total corpus of their known
2:20:00research i don't know what their other
2:20:02things say but yes there is documents
2:20:04that say those things so we had
2:20:06testimony last week in the senate with a
2:20:08witness from facebook who claimed that
2:20:10that uh that information was not
2:20:12accurate and needed to be in context now
2:20:14of course she wasn't willing to provide
2:20:16the context the alleged mysterious
2:20:18context do you know of any context
2:20:20that would make those data anything
2:20:23other than horrifying and deeply
2:20:25disturbing
2:20:26um
2:20:28engagement based ranking and these
2:20:30processes of amplification uh they they
2:20:32impact all users of facebook the
2:20:34algorithms are very smart in the sense
2:20:36that they latch on to things that people
2:20:39want to continue to engage with and
2:20:41unfortunately in the case of teen girls
2:20:43and things like self-harm they develop
2:20:45these feedback cycles where children are
2:20:47using instagram as to self-soothe but
2:20:50then are exposed to more and more
2:20:51content that makes them hate themselves
2:20:53this is a thing where we can't say 80 of
2:20:55kids are okay we need to say how do we
2:20:57save all the kids
2:21:00the wall street journal reported that
2:21:01mark zuckerberg was personally aware of
2:21:04this research do you have any
2:21:06information one way or the other as to
2:21:07mr zuckerberg's awareness of the
2:21:09research um we have a uh excuse me um
2:21:12one of the documents included in the
2:21:14disclosures it details something called
2:21:17project daisy which is an initiative to
2:21:18remove likes off of instagram the
2:21:21internal research showed that removing
2:21:23likes off instagram is not effective as
2:21:25long as you leave comments on those
2:21:27posts and yet the research directly
2:21:29presented to mark zuckerberg said we
2:21:32should still pursue this as a feature to
2:21:34launch even though it's not effective
2:21:36because the government journalists and
2:21:38academics want us to do this like it
2:21:41would get us positive points with the
2:21:42public
2:21:43um
2:21:44that cut that kind of duplicity is why
2:21:47we need to have more transparency and
2:21:49why if we want to have a system that is
2:21:51uh coherent with democracy we must have
2:21:54public oversight from congress
2:21:56do you know if facebook any of the
2:21:58research it conducted attempted to
2:22:00quantify how many teenage girls may have
2:22:03taken their lives because of facebook's
2:22:05products
2:22:06i am not aware of that research
2:22:08do you know if facebook made any changes
2:22:11when they got back that 13 of british
2:22:13users and six percent of american users
2:22:15trace their desire to kill themselves to
2:22:17instagram do you know if they made any
2:22:19changes
2:22:20in response to that research to try to
2:22:23correct or mitigate that i found it very
2:22:26surprising that when antonia davis was
2:22:27confronted with this research last week
2:22:29she couldn't enumerate
2:22:31a five-point plan a 10-point plan of the
2:22:33actions that they took i also find it
2:22:35shocking that one once facebook had this
2:22:37research it didn't disclose it to the
2:22:39public because this is the kind of thing
2:22:41that should have oversight from congress
2:22:43so when you were at facebook were there
2:22:44discussions about how to respond to this
2:22:46this research i did not work directly on
2:22:49issues concerning children these are
2:22:51just documents that were freely
2:22:52available in the company so i am not
2:22:53aware of that okay
2:22:56do you have thoughts as to what kind of
2:22:58changes facebook could make
2:23:00to reduce or eliminate these harms
2:23:04you mentioned earlier concerns around
2:23:06free speech a lot of the things that i
2:23:08advocate for are around changing the
2:23:10mechanisms of amplification not around
2:23:13picking winners and losers in the
2:23:14marketplace of ideas so probably explain
2:23:17what that means oh sure um so like i
2:23:20mentioned before you know like how on
2:23:21twitter if you have to click through on
2:23:23a link before you reshare it
2:23:25small actions like that friction don't
2:23:27require picking good ideas and bad ideas
2:23:30they just make the platform less twitchy
2:23:32less reactive and facebook's internal
2:23:35research says that each one of those
2:23:36small actions
2:23:38dramatically reduces misinformation hate
2:23:40speech and violence inciting content on
2:23:42the platform so and we're running out of
2:23:44time but but on the second major topic
2:23:47of concern of facebook which is
2:23:48censorship based on what you've seen are
2:23:50you are you concerned about political
2:23:53censorship at facebook and in big tech i
2:23:56believe you cannot have a system that
2:23:59uh has as big an impact on society as
2:24:02facebook does today with as little
2:24:03transparency as it does
2:24:05i am a strong proponent of chronological
2:24:08ranking uh ordering by time with a
2:24:10little bit of spammed emotion because i
2:24:12think
2:24:13um
2:24:14we don't want computers deciding what we
2:24:17focus on we should have software that is
2:24:19human scaled where humans have
2:24:21conversations together not computers
2:24:23facilitating who we get to hear from so
2:24:25how could we get more transparency what
2:24:27would produce that
2:24:29i strongly encourage the development of
2:24:31some kind of regulatory body that could
2:24:34work with academics work with
2:24:35researchers work with other government
2:24:37agencies to
2:24:39synthesize requests for data that are
2:24:41privacy conscious this is an area that
2:24:43i'm really passionate about um
2:24:45and because right now no one can force
2:24:47facebook to disclose data and facebook
2:24:50has been stonewalling us or even worse
2:24:52they gave inaccurate data to researchers
2:24:54as the scandal recently showed what data
2:24:56should they turn over my times expired
2:24:58so um
2:25:00for example um
2:25:02even data as simple as what integrity
2:25:05systems exist today and how well do they
2:25:07perform
2:25:08like there are lots and lots of people
2:25:10who facebook is conveying around the
2:25:12world that that facebook safety systems
2:25:15apply to their language and those people
2:25:17aren't aware that they're using a raw
2:25:19original dangerous version of facebook
2:25:22just basic actions that like
2:25:23transparency would make a huge
2:25:24difference
2:25:25thank you
2:25:28thanks senator cruz senator loomis
2:25:32thank you mr chairman and thank you for
2:25:34your testimony um
2:25:36if you were in my seat today instead of
2:25:38your seat
2:25:40what documents or unanswered questions
2:25:43would you seek
2:25:44from facebook especially as it relates
2:25:47to children
2:25:48but even generally speaking
2:25:51i think any research regarding what
2:25:53facebook does problematic use i.e the
2:25:56addictiveness of the product is of vital
2:25:58importance and anything around what
2:26:00facebook knows about
2:26:02parents lack of knowledge about the
2:26:04platform
2:26:06i only know about the documents that i
2:26:08have seen right i did not work on teens
2:26:11or child safety myself but in the
2:26:14documents that i read facebook
2:26:16articulates the idea that parents today
2:26:18are not aware of how dangerous instagram
2:26:20is and they because they themselves did
2:26:23not live through these experiences they
2:26:24can't coach their kids on basic safety
2:26:27things
2:26:28and so at a minimum facebook shaft to
2:26:30disclose what it knows in that context
2:26:32okay so we're trying to protect
2:26:35individuals data that they're gathering
2:26:38have data privacy
2:26:41but have transparency
2:26:44in the manner in which
2:26:47the data is used
2:26:49can we bridge that gap
2:26:52imagine um i i think we reasonable
2:26:55people can have a conversation on how
2:26:57many people need to see a piece of
2:26:58content before it's not really private
2:27:01like if a hundred thousand people see
2:27:02something is it private if 25 000 people
2:27:05see it is it private just disclosing the
2:27:08most popular content on the platform
2:27:11including statistics around what factors
2:27:13went into the promotion of that content
2:27:16would cause radically more transparency
2:27:18than we have today on how facebook
2:27:20chooses what we get to focus on how they
2:27:22shape our reality
2:27:23okay if if our focus is protecting the
2:27:27first amendment and our rights to free
2:27:29speech while
2:27:31very carefully regulating
2:27:34um
2:27:35data privacy
2:27:37um
2:27:39i've heard there there are a number of
2:27:41things that are being discussed in
2:27:42congress everything from
2:27:46antitrust laws
2:27:48to
2:27:49calling facebook a utility
2:27:52to
2:27:53the idea that you just raised of a
2:27:57regulatory board of some sort
2:28:00that has authority to
2:28:05through understanding of the algorithms
2:28:07and how they're used and other
2:28:10mechanisms that create what we see
2:28:14the
2:28:14the face of facebook so to speak um
2:28:20tell me a little more about how you
2:28:21envision that board working
2:28:24what is the in your mind based on your
2:28:27understanding of the company and the ill
2:28:31um
2:28:32consequences
2:28:33uh
2:28:34what is the best approach to bridging
2:28:37the gap between keeping speech free
2:28:40and protecting individual privacy with
2:28:43regard to data
2:28:46so i think those issues are
2:28:48they are independent issues so we can
2:28:50talk about free speech first which is
2:28:53having more transparency like facebook
2:28:55has solutions today that are not
2:28:57content-based
2:28:58and i am a strong advocate for
2:29:00non-content-based solutions because
2:29:03those solutions will also then protect
2:29:05the most vulnerable people in the world
2:29:07in a place like ethiopia where they
2:29:08speak six languages
2:29:10if you have something that focuses on
2:29:12good ideas and bad ideas those systems
2:29:14don't work in diverse places so
2:29:16investing in
2:29:18non-content-based ways to slow the
2:29:20platform down not only protects our
2:29:22freedom of speech it protects people's
2:29:24lives the second question is around
2:29:26privacy and this question of how can we
2:29:28have oversight and have privacy there is
2:29:30lots and lots of research on how to
2:29:32abstract data sets so you're not showing
2:29:35people's names you might not even be
2:29:36showing the content of their post you
2:29:38might be showing data that is about the
2:29:40content of their post but not the post
2:29:41itself there are many ways to structure
2:29:44these data sets that are privacy
2:29:46conscious
2:29:46and be the fact that facebook has walled
2:29:49off the ability to see even basic things
2:29:51about how the platform performs or in
2:29:53the case of their past academic research
2:29:55releasing inaccurate data
2:29:58or not being clear about how they pulled
2:29:59that data is just part of a pattern of
2:30:02behavior of facebook hiding behind walls
2:30:04and operating in the shadows and they
2:30:06have far too much power in our society
2:30:07to be allowed to continue to operate
2:30:09that way
2:30:10well i i had heard you make the analogy
2:30:13earlier to the tobacco industry and i
2:30:15think that that's an appropriate analogy
2:30:19i
2:30:21i really believe we're searching for
2:30:24the best way
2:30:26to address the problem
2:30:29and i'm i i'm not sure that it is the
2:30:33heavy hands like breaking up
2:30:35companies or
2:30:38calling them a utility
2:30:42which is why your approach
2:30:44of integrating people who understand
2:30:48the math and the uses of the math
2:30:51uh with uh protecting privacy
2:30:54uh it is intriguing to me
2:30:57so the more
2:30:58information that you can provide to us
2:31:02about how that might work to actually
2:31:05address the problem
2:31:06i i think would be helpful so um in my
2:31:09case this is an invitation to you
2:31:12uh to uh provide to my office or the
2:31:15committee um
2:31:17information about how we can get at the
2:31:20root of the problem that you've
2:31:22identified and can document
2:31:25um
2:31:26and
2:31:30save people's privacy
2:31:33so uh i extend that invitation to you
2:31:35and i thank you for your testimony uh mr
2:31:38chairman i yield back thanks senator
2:31:40lummus uh
2:31:41senator sullivan
2:31:48thank you mr chairman and
2:31:51i want to thank our witness here it's
2:31:53been a good hearing a lot of information
2:31:55has been learned
2:31:57particularly on the issue of how this is
2:31:59impacting our kids
2:32:01i think
2:32:02we're going to look back
2:32:0420 years from now
2:32:06and
2:32:08all of us are going to be like what in
2:32:10the hell were we thinking when we
2:32:11recognize
2:32:12the damage that it's done to a
2:32:14generation
2:32:16of kids do you agree with that mrs hugin
2:32:19uh when facebook made statement has made
2:32:21statements in the past about how much
2:32:24benefit
2:32:25instagram is providing to kids mental
2:32:26health like kids are connecting who are
2:32:28once alone
2:32:29uh
2:32:30what i'm so surprised about that is if
2:32:32if instagram is such a positive force
2:32:35have we have we seen a golden age of
2:32:36teenage mental health in the last 10
2:32:38years no we've seen i've seen the
2:32:40opposite right we've seen escalating
2:32:42rates of suicide and depression amongst
2:32:43teenagers do you think those rates
2:32:46are at least in part driven by the
2:32:48social media phenomena there is a broad
2:32:50swath of research that supports the idea
2:32:53that usage of social media uh
2:32:56amplifies the risk for these mental
2:32:57health harms so right now and this
2:32:59hearing is helping illuminate it
2:33:00we are seeing and facebook's on research
2:33:02shows that right yeah say that again
2:33:04that's what i said and facebook's own
2:33:06research shows that
2:33:08right the kids are saying kids are
2:33:09saying i am unhappy when i use instagram
2:33:11and i can't stop but if i leave i'm
2:33:13afraid i'll be ostracized right and
2:33:16that's that's so sad
2:33:18so they know that
2:33:19that's what their research shows
2:33:21so what do you think drives them to i
2:33:24had this discussion with the witness
2:33:26last week
2:33:27and i said well
2:33:29you know i think they called it their
2:33:31time out or
2:33:32stopped i said but isn't that
2:33:33incompatible with your business model
2:33:36because your business model is more time
2:33:38online more eyeballs online isn't that
2:33:41the fundamental elements of their
2:33:43business model
2:33:46facebook has had both an interesting
2:33:47opportunity and a hard challenge from
2:33:49being a closed system
2:33:51so they have had the opportunity to hide
2:33:53their problems and like often people do
2:33:55when they can hide their problems they
2:33:57get in over their heads and i think
2:33:59facebook needs an opportunity to have
2:34:01congress step in and say guess what you
2:34:03don't have to struggle by yourself
2:34:05anymore you don't have to hide these
2:34:06things from us you don't have to pretend
2:34:08they're not problems you can declare
2:34:10moral bankruptcy and we can figure out
2:34:11how to fix these things together because
2:34:13we solve problems together we don't
2:34:15solve them alone and by moral bankruptcy
2:34:17one of the things that i appreciate the
2:34:18phrase that the chairman and you've been
2:34:20using is one of those elements which is
2:34:23they know this is a problem they know
2:34:24it's actually
2:34:26impacting negatively the mental health
2:34:28of the most precious assets we have in
2:34:30america our youth our kids i have three
2:34:33daughters
2:34:34um
2:34:36they know that that is
2:34:38happening and yet the moral bankruptcy
2:34:41from your perspective is the continued
2:34:44the continuation of this simply because
2:34:47that's how they make money i i phrase it
2:34:50slightly differently we have financial
2:34:51bankruptcy because we value people's
2:34:53lives more than we value money right the
2:34:55people get in over their heads and they
2:34:57need a process where they admit they did
2:34:58something wrong but we have a mechanism
2:35:01where we forgive them and we we have a
2:35:02way for them to move forward facebook is
2:35:04stuck in a feedback loop that they
2:35:06cannot get out of they have been hiding
2:35:08this information because they feel
2:35:09trapped right like they would have come
2:35:11forward if they had solutions to these
2:35:13things they need to admit they did
2:35:14something wrong and they need help to
2:35:16solve these problems and that's what
2:35:18moral bankruptcy is let me ask i'm going
2:35:19to switch gears here and and this is uh
2:35:24you what's your current position right
2:35:25now in terms of its disinformation and
2:35:28counter espionage um my last role at
2:35:30facebook was encounter i'm sorry your
2:35:32last role okay
2:35:33so one of the things this is a very
2:35:35different topic and um
2:35:37i only got a minute or so left but right
2:35:40now is facebook i know facebook is not
2:35:43allowed in countries like china
2:35:45but do they provide platforms
2:35:48for authoritarian or terrorist space
2:35:53like
2:35:54the ayatollahs in iran that's the
2:35:56largest state-sponsored terrorism in the
2:35:58world um or the taliban
2:36:01or xi jinping are certain my view our
2:36:05biggest rival for this century
2:36:07a communist
2:36:09party dictator who's trying to export
2:36:11his authoritarian model
2:36:13around the world
2:36:14do they provide a platform for those
2:36:18kind of
2:36:20leaders who in my view clearly don't
2:36:23hold america's interests uh in mind
2:36:27because facebook provided
2:36:29i i during my time working with uh the
2:36:31threat intelligence org so i was a
2:36:33product manager supporting the threat of
2:36:35the counter-espionage team
2:36:38my team directly worked on
2:36:41tracking chinese participation on the
2:36:43platform surveilling say weaker
2:36:45populations in places around the world
2:36:48that you could actually find the chinese
2:36:50based on them doing these kinds of
2:36:51things so facebook yeah i'm sorry um we
2:36:54also saw
2:36:56active persuasion of say the iran
2:36:58government doing espionage on other um
2:37:01state actors um so this is definitely
2:37:03thing that is happening and i believe
2:37:05facebook's consistent understaffing of
2:37:08the counter-espionage information
2:37:09operations and counter-terrorism teams
2:37:12is a national security issue and i'm
2:37:14speaking to other parts of congress
2:37:15about that so you are saying in essence
2:37:17that the the
2:37:18the platform whether facebook knows it
2:37:20or not is being utilized by some of our
2:37:22adversaries in a way that helps push and
2:37:25promote
2:37:26their interests at the expense of
2:37:27americas yes facebook's so very aware
2:37:30that this is happening on the platform
2:37:31and i believe the fact that congress
2:37:33doesn't get a report of exactly how many
2:37:35people are working on these things
2:37:36internally is is unacceptable because
2:37:39you have a right to keep the american
2:37:40people safe
2:37:42great thank you very much
2:37:45thanks senator sullivan uh you may have
2:37:46just opened
2:37:48an area for another year sorry yeah
2:37:51yeah i've i have strong national
2:37:52security concerns about how facebook
2:37:54operates today well mr chairman maybe we
2:37:56should right i mean it's a i'm i'm
2:37:58not being at all facetious uh thank you
2:38:01for your questions on this
2:38:03topic and i know you have a busy
2:38:04schedule but we may want to
2:38:06discuss this issue with you members of
2:38:09our committee uh at least informally and
2:38:12if you'd be willing to come back for
2:38:13another hearing
2:38:14that uh certainly is within the realm of
2:38:17possibility i haven't consulted the
2:38:18ranking member but
2:38:19uh or the chair
2:38:21woman but um
2:38:24thank you for your honesty and your
2:38:25candor on that topic
2:38:27uh senator scott
2:38:30thank you chairman um first off thanks
2:38:32for coming forward and thanks for coming
2:38:34forward in the matter that you wanted to
2:38:35have a have positive change so that's
2:38:37not always what what happens
2:38:40earlier this year i sent a letter to
2:38:41facebook and other social media
2:38:42platforms asking them to detail the
2:38:44harmful impacts the effects on mental
2:38:46health their platforms have on uh
2:38:49children and teens
2:38:51so your reports reveal that facebook has
2:38:53been clearly fully aware of this
2:38:55for a while
2:38:57and the harmful impacts especially on
2:38:58young women so i think we all agree
2:39:00that's completely unacceptable
2:39:02and we've got to figure out how we
2:39:03protect
2:39:04the people that are vulnerable in this
2:39:05country from the harmful impacts of
2:39:07facebook and other social media
2:39:08platforms so first off do you think
2:39:10there should be um
2:39:12greater consideration for age when it
2:39:14comes to using any social media
2:39:16i strongly encourage raising age limits
2:39:18to 16 or 18 years old based on
2:39:21looking at the data around
2:39:23problematic use or addiction on the
2:39:25platform and
2:39:26children's self-regulation issues
2:39:30so
2:39:31so i think you addressed this a little
2:39:32bit but why do you think
2:39:34facebook didn't address this publicly
2:39:36when they they figured out internally
2:39:37that they were having an adverse impact
2:39:39on
2:39:40young young people especially young
2:39:41women why didn't they come forward and
2:39:42say
2:39:43i've got we've got a problem we've got
2:39:45to figure this out
2:39:46i i have a huge amount of empathy for
2:39:48for facebook these are really really
2:39:50hard questions um and part of why i was
2:39:52saying i think i think they feel a
2:39:53little a little trapped and isolated is
2:39:56the problems that are driving uh
2:39:58negative social comparison on instagram
2:40:01facebook's own research says
2:40:03instagram is actually distinctly worse
2:40:05than say tick tock or snapchat or reddit
2:40:09um because instagram ticktalk is about
2:40:12doing fun things with your friends
2:40:14snapchat is about faces and augmented
2:40:16reality
2:40:17reddit is vaguely about ideas but
2:40:20instagram is about bodies and about
2:40:22comparing lifestyles
2:40:24and so i think there are real questions
2:40:25where like instagram would have to come
2:40:27in and think hard about their product or
2:40:29about like what is their product about
2:40:31and i think i don't think those answers
2:40:32are immediately obvious that's why i
2:40:34believe we need to solve problems
2:40:35together and not alone because
2:40:37collaborating with the public will give
2:40:39us better solutions
2:40:40so do you think facebook was trying to
2:40:42trying to mitigate the problem
2:40:45i think within the set of incentives
2:40:47that they were working within they did
2:40:49the best they could unfortunately those
2:40:51incentives are not sustainable and they
2:40:53are not acceptable uh in in our society
2:40:56you think facebook and other social
2:40:58media platforms ought to be able to be
2:40:59required to report any harmful effects
2:41:01they have on young people
2:41:03one of the things that i found
2:41:05very interesting after the report in the
2:41:07wall street journal on teen mental
2:41:09health was that a a former executive at
2:41:12the company said facebook needs to be
2:41:14able to have private research and the
2:41:16part that i was offended by this was
2:41:17facebook has had some of this research
2:41:19on the negative effects of instagram on
2:41:20teenagers for years
2:41:22i strongly support the idea that
2:41:24facebook should have a year maybe 18
2:41:25months to have private research but
2:41:27given that they are the only people in
2:41:29the world who can do this kind of
2:41:30research
2:41:32that the public never gets to do it they
2:41:34shouldn't be allowed to keep secrets
2:41:35when people's lives are on the line
2:41:38so
2:41:40because because to be clear if they make
2:41:4140 billion a year they have the
2:41:43resources to solve these problems
2:41:44they're choosing not to solve them yeah
2:41:46didn't that surprise you they wouldn't
2:41:47put more effort into this you know
2:41:48because you know it's going to catch up
2:41:49with them eventually right yeah
2:41:51like like i mentioned earlier to senator
2:41:53hickenlooper
2:41:55right coming in and having oversight
2:41:57might actually make facebook a more
2:41:59profitable company five or ten years
2:42:00from now because toxicity facebook's own
2:42:03research shows
2:42:04uh they have something called an
2:42:06integrity holdout these are people who
2:42:08don't get protections from integrity
2:42:10systems to see what happens to them
2:42:13and those people who deal with a more
2:42:15toxic painful version of facebook use
2:42:16facebook less
2:42:18and so one could could rat could reason
2:42:21a kinder friendlier more collaborative
2:42:23facebook might actually have more users
2:42:25five years from now so it's in in
2:42:27everyone's interest do you think i've
2:42:28got a bill and there's a lot of bills
2:42:30that i think we've all talked about but
2:42:31mine is called the data act it's going
2:42:33to require express consent from users
2:42:34for large platforms to use algorithms on
2:42:37somebody you agree with that
2:42:39i mean what i mean what shouldn't we
2:42:41consent before they get to take our
2:42:43account everything about us and go sell
2:42:46it
2:42:46uh to cali send things to us
2:42:49for for um selling personal data that uh
2:42:51that is an issue i believe people should
2:42:53have substantially more control over
2:42:56most people are not well informed on
2:42:58what the cost the cost personal costs of
2:43:00having their data sold are and so i
2:43:02worry about um pushing that choice back
2:43:05on individual consumers
2:43:07in terms of should people consent to
2:43:09working with algorithms um
2:43:11i worry that if facebook is allowed to
2:43:15give users the choice of do you want an
2:43:18engagement based news feed or do you
2:43:19want a chronological news feed like
2:43:21ordered by time maybe a little spammed
2:43:23emotion
2:43:24that people will choose the more
2:43:25addictive option that engagement based
2:43:27ranking even if it is leading their
2:43:30their daughters to eating disorders
2:43:32all right thank you
2:43:35thanks senator scott i think we have
2:43:37concluded the first round
2:43:39unless we're missing someone
2:43:41who is
2:43:44on line
2:43:46and
2:43:47not hearing anyone
2:43:49let's go to the second round
2:43:51uh thank you again for your patience uh
2:43:53i know you have a hard stop i think at 1
2:43:5630.
2:43:57so we'll be respectful of that
2:43:59limitation and
2:44:00i'll begin by asking a few questions
2:44:03first let me say
2:44:05senator klobuchar
2:44:07very
2:44:08aptly
2:44:10raised with you
2:44:11the principal obstacle to our achieving
2:44:14legislative reform in the past which is
2:44:16the
2:44:17tons of money
2:44:19spent on lobbyists and other
2:44:23kinds of
2:44:25influence peddling
2:44:27to use a pejorative word that is so
2:44:30evident here in the united states
2:44:32congress
2:44:33some of it's dark money some of it is
2:44:35very overt
2:44:36but
2:44:38i guess the point i'd like to make to
2:44:40you personally is that your being here
2:44:45really sends a profound message to
2:44:49our nation that one person can really
2:44:50make a difference
2:44:52one person standing up speaking out
2:44:55can overcome
2:44:56a lot of those obstacles for us and you
2:44:58have crystallized
2:45:00in a way our
2:45:02consciousness here you've
2:45:04been a catalyst i think for change in a
2:45:07way that
2:45:08we haven't seen and i've been working on
2:45:10these issues for
2:45:1310 15 years
2:45:15and you have raised awareness in a way
2:45:18that i think is very unique
2:45:20so
2:45:21uh thank you not only for your
2:45:23risk-taking and your
2:45:25courage and strength in standing up but
2:45:27also for the effect that it has had
2:45:30and i also want to make another point
2:45:32you can tell me whether i'm correct or
2:45:34not
2:45:35i think there are other whistleblowers
2:45:37out there
2:45:39i think there are other truth tellers
2:45:41in the tech world
2:45:43who want to come forward i think you're
2:45:45leading by example
2:45:47i think you are showing them that
2:45:49there's a path
2:45:50to make this industry more responsible
2:45:54and more caring about kids
2:45:58and about the nature of our public
2:46:00discourse generally are about the
2:46:01strength of our democracy and i think
2:46:03you
2:46:05have given them
2:46:07a boost
2:46:08those whistleblowers out there
2:46:11and potentially coming forward i think
2:46:13that's tremendously important i think
2:46:14also
2:46:16again you can tell me if i'm wrong
2:46:18there are a lot of people on facebook
2:46:20who are cheering for you
2:46:23because
2:46:26there are public reports and i know of
2:46:28some of my
2:46:30friends in this world who tell me
2:46:33that
2:46:35the people working for facebook who wish
2:46:37they had
2:46:39the opportunity and the courage to come
2:46:41forward as you have done because they
2:46:43feel
2:46:45a lot of reservations about the way that
2:46:47facebook has used the platform used
2:46:50algorithms
2:46:51used
2:46:52content and pushed it on kids in this
2:46:56way
2:46:58so
2:46:59those are
2:47:00sort of hypotheses
2:47:03uh
2:47:04that i hope you can confirm
2:47:07uh and i also would like to ask you
2:47:11because a lot of parents are watching
2:47:14right now
2:47:15so you've advised us
2:47:17on what you think we should do the
2:47:19reforms some of them that you think we
2:47:21should adopt stronger oversight
2:47:23authorized by congress
2:47:26better disclosure
2:47:28because right now
2:47:29facebook essentially is a black box yes
2:47:32for most of america facebook is a black
2:47:35box
2:47:36that's designed by mark zuckerberg
2:47:39incorporated
2:47:42mark zuckerberg and his immediate codery
2:47:46and the buck stops with him
2:47:50and
2:47:51reform of section 203 so there's some
2:47:54legal responsibility so people have a
2:47:56day in court
2:47:57some kind of recourse
2:48:00legally when they're harmed
2:48:02by facebook because right now it has
2:48:04this broad immunity most of america has
2:48:06no idea
2:48:08essentially you can't sue facebook you
2:48:12have no recourse
2:48:15most america doesn't know about section
2:48:18230
2:48:20and
2:48:21if you
2:48:23pushed
2:48:24a lot of members of congress they
2:48:25wouldn't know either
2:48:27it's actually slightly worse than that
2:48:28they facebook made a statement in a
2:48:31legal proceeding recently where they
2:48:32said they had the right to mislead the
2:48:34court because they had immunity
2:48:36right that 230 give them immunity so why
2:48:39should they have to tell the truth about
2:48:40what they're showing
2:48:41which is
2:48:42kind of
2:48:43shocking
2:48:44well it is shocking to a lawyer yeah
2:48:48which some of us are
2:48:50uh it's also
2:48:52utter
2:48:53disregard and contempt for the rule of
2:48:55law
2:48:56and for the very legal structure that
2:48:59gives them
2:49:00that kind of protection so
2:49:03it's
2:49:04kind of a new role
2:49:07in
2:49:08corporate
2:49:09conduct at least in court
2:49:13so you you provided us with some of the
2:49:16reforms that you think
2:49:18are
2:49:19important and i think that the oversight
2:49:21goes a long way because it in turn would
2:49:24make public uh a lot of what is going on
2:49:28in this black box
2:49:30but for now
2:49:33since a lot of teens and
2:49:36tweens will
2:49:37be going home tonight
2:49:39as you said
2:49:41to endure the bullying
2:49:44orders
2:49:46the invitations to
2:49:49feel insecure about themselves
2:49:51heightened anxiety they have to live
2:49:53with the real world as it exists right
2:49:54now and they will be
2:49:57haunted for their lifetimes by these
2:49:59experiences
2:50:02what would you tell parents
2:50:03right now
2:50:04what would you advise them
2:50:07about what they can do because they need
2:50:09more tools
2:50:10and some of the proposals that have been
2:50:12mentioned here
2:50:13would give parents
2:50:14more tools to protect their children
2:50:16right now a lot of parents tell me
2:50:20they
2:50:21feel powerless
2:50:23they
2:50:24need more information they're
2:50:26way behind their kids and their
2:50:28adeptness online
2:50:32and
2:50:33they feel that
2:50:35they need to be empowered
2:50:37in some way to protect their kids in the
2:50:39real world right now
2:50:41in real time so i
2:50:44offer you that
2:50:45open-ended opportunity to
2:50:48talk to us a little bit about your
2:50:49thoughts
2:50:51very rarely do you have one of these
2:50:53generational shifts where
2:50:55uh the the generation that leads like
2:50:57parents who who who guide their children
2:51:01have such um a different set of
2:51:03experiences that they don't have the
2:51:05context to support their children in a
2:51:07safe way
2:51:09there is an active need for
2:51:12schools or or maybe the
2:51:14national institutes of health
2:51:16to to make established information where
2:51:19if parents want to learn on how they can
2:51:21support their kids it should be easy for
2:51:23them to know what is constructive and
2:51:24not constructive
2:51:26because
2:51:27facebook's own research says kids today
2:51:29feel like they are struggling alone with
2:51:31all these issues
2:51:32because their parents can't guide them
2:51:34and one of the things i'm sad is when i
2:51:36look on twitter is when people blame the
2:51:38parents for these problems with facebook
2:51:40they say just take your kid's phone away
2:51:42and the reality is those issues are a
2:51:44lot more complicated than that and so
2:51:47we need to support parents because right
2:51:49now if facebook won't protect the kids
2:51:51we at least need to help the parents to
2:51:53protect the kids
2:51:54if parents are anguished they are
2:51:58about this issue parents are hardly
2:52:01[Music]
2:52:03uncaring they
2:52:05need the tools they need to be empowered
2:52:08and
2:52:09i think that the
2:52:11major encouragement for reforms is going
2:52:14to come from
2:52:15those parents
2:52:17and
2:52:18you have pointed out i think in general
2:52:21but i'd like you to just confirm for me
2:52:25this research
2:52:27and the documents containing that
2:52:29research
2:52:31is not only findings and conclusions
2:52:33also recommendations for changes
2:52:38what i hear you saying is that again and
2:52:40again and again
2:52:42these recommendations were just rejected
2:52:44or disregarded correct
2:52:47uh there is a pattern of behavior that i
2:52:49saw at facebook of facebook choosing to
2:52:51prioritize its profits over people
2:52:54and any time that facebook faced even
2:52:56tiny hits to growth like point one
2:52:58percent of sessions
2:53:00one percent of views that it shows its
2:53:03profits over safety and you mentioned i
2:53:06think bonuses tied to
2:53:09downstream msis decor msi yeah could you
2:53:12explain what you meant um so msi is
2:53:15meaningful social interaction
2:53:16uh facebook's internal governance is
2:53:19very much based around metrics so
2:53:21facebook is incredibly flat to the point
2:53:23where they have the largest open floor
2:53:25plan office in the world it's a quarter
2:53:26of a mile long in one room right they
2:53:28believe in flat
2:53:30and instead of having internal
2:53:31governance they have metrics that people
2:53:33try to move
2:53:35in a world like that it doesn't matter
2:53:37that we now have multiple years of data
2:53:39saying msi maybe encouraging bad content
2:53:42might be making
2:53:43spaces where people are are scared where
2:53:47they are shown information that puts
2:53:48them at risk
2:53:50it's so hard to just lodge a ruler like
2:53:54that
2:53:54that uh a yardstick
2:53:57that
2:53:58you end up in the situation where
2:53:59because no one is taking leadership like
2:54:01no one is intentionally designing these
2:54:03systems it's just many many people
2:54:05running in parallel all moving the
2:54:06metric that these problems get amplified
2:54:08and amplified and amplified and no one
2:54:10steps in to bring the solutions
2:54:13and i just want to finish and then i
2:54:15think we've been joined by senator young
2:54:19and then we'll go
2:54:20to
2:54:21senator blackburn and senator klobuchar
2:54:24um
2:54:25you know
2:54:26i spent
2:54:27a number of years as an attorney general
2:54:30helping to lead litigation against big
2:54:32tobacco
2:54:34and
2:54:35i came to
2:54:37hear from a lot of
2:54:39smokers
2:54:41how grateful they were
2:54:43ironically and unexpectedly that someone
2:54:45was fighting big tobacco because they
2:54:47felt they had been victimized as
2:54:49children
2:54:50they started smoking when they were 7 8
2:54:5312 years old because big tobacco was
2:54:56hooking them
2:54:57and as we developed the research very
2:55:00methodically and purposefully
2:55:03addicting them
2:55:04at that early age when
2:55:06they
2:55:08believed
2:55:10that
2:55:11they
2:55:12would make themselves more popular
2:55:14that they would be cool and hip if they
2:55:17began smoking and then nicotine
2:55:20hooked them now physiologically nicotine
2:55:23has addictive properties
2:55:27what is it about
2:55:29facebook's tactics
2:55:31of hooking young people
2:55:34that makes it similar to what
2:55:37big tobacco
2:55:38has done
2:55:40facebook's own research about instagram
2:55:44contains quotes from kids saying
2:55:47i feel bad when i use instagram
2:55:50but i also feel like i can't stop right
2:55:52i know that the more time i spend on
2:55:54this the worse i feel but like i just
2:55:57can't like that they want the next click
2:55:58they want the next like
2:56:00they they the the dopamine you know the
2:56:02little hits all the time
2:56:04and
2:56:06i i feel a lot of pain for those kids
2:56:09right like they they they say they fear
2:56:11being ostracized if they step away from
2:56:13the platform so imagine you're in this
2:56:15situation in this relationship where
2:56:16every time you open the app it makes you
2:56:18feel worse but you also fear
2:56:21isolation if you don't
2:56:22um i think there's a huge opportunity
2:56:24here to make social media that makes
2:56:26kids feel good not feel bad
2:56:28and that we have an obligation to our
2:56:30youth to make sure that they're safe
2:56:31online
2:56:32thank you senator young
2:56:40um uh thank you for your compelling
2:56:42testimony
2:56:44in that testimony you discuss how
2:56:46facebook generates self-harm and and
2:56:50self-hate
2:56:51especially among vulnerable groups like
2:56:55teenage girls
2:56:57i happen to be a father of four kids
2:56:59three daughters two of whom
2:57:02are teenagers and
2:57:05as you as you just alluded to most
2:57:07adults myself included
2:57:09i've never been a teenager
2:57:11during the age of facebook instagram and
2:57:14these other social media platforms
2:57:17and therefore i think it can be really
2:57:19hard
2:57:20for many of us to fully appreciate the
2:57:22impact that certain posts may have
2:57:26in including i would add
2:57:28on a teen's mental health
2:57:31but can you discuss the short and
2:57:34long-term consequences of body image
2:57:37issues
2:57:38on these platforms please
2:57:44the patterns that children establish in
2:57:46their teenage years live with them for
2:57:48the rest of their lives the way they
2:57:50conceptualize who they are how they
2:57:51conceptualize how they interact with
2:57:53other people are patterns and habits
2:57:55they will take with them as they become
2:57:56adults as they themselves raise children
2:58:00i'm very scared about the upcoming
2:58:02generation because
2:58:04when you and i interact in person and i
2:58:07say something mean to you and i see you
2:58:09wince or i see you cry
2:58:11that makes me less likely to do it the
2:58:13next time right that's a feedback cycle
2:58:15online kids don't get those cues and
2:58:18they learn to be incredibly cruel to
2:58:20each other and they normalize it
2:58:23and i'm scared of what will their lives
2:58:25look like where they grow up with the
2:58:27idea that it's okay to be treated badly
2:58:29by people who allegedly care about them
2:58:32that's a scary future
2:58:36very scary future
2:58:38and i see some evidence of that as to so
2:58:40many parents
2:58:42um on a regular basis are there other
2:58:46specific issues of
2:58:48significant consequence that the general
2:58:51public may not be fully aware of that
2:58:53are impacting um vulnerable groups that
2:58:56you you just like to elevate
2:58:59during this testimony
2:59:01one of the things that's hard
2:59:03for people who don't look at the data of
2:59:05social networks every day it can be hard
2:59:07to conceptualize the distribution
2:59:10patterns of harms or just of usage that
2:59:13there are these things called power laws
2:59:15it means that a small number of users
2:59:17are extremely intensely engaged on any
2:59:20given topic and most people are just
2:59:22lightly engaged
2:59:24when you look at things like
2:59:25misinformation facebook knows that the
2:59:27people who are exposed to the most
2:59:28misinformation are people who are
2:59:30recently widowed divorced moved to a new
2:59:33city
2:59:34are isolated in some other way
2:59:37when i worked on civic misinformation we
2:59:39discussed the idea of the misinformation
2:59:42burden like the idea that when people
2:59:44are exposed to ideas that are not true
2:59:46over and over again it erodes their
2:59:48ability to to connect with the community
2:59:51at large because they no longer adhere
2:59:53to facts that are consensus reality
2:59:56um
2:59:57the fact that facebook knows that it's
2:59:59most vulnerable users people who
3:00:01recently widowed like that they're
3:00:03isolated that the systems that are meant
3:00:05to keep them safe like demoting
3:00:07misinformation stop working when people
3:00:09look at 2000 posts a day
3:00:11right and i just it breaks my heart the
3:00:14idea that these rabbit holes would suck
3:00:16people down and then make it hard to
3:00:17connect with others
3:00:21so miss miss hodgkin
3:00:23i desperately want to
3:00:25uh which is the american impulse i want
3:00:27to solve this problem
3:00:29and uh i
3:00:32i very much uh believe that uh congress
3:00:35not only has a role but has a
3:00:36responsibility to
3:00:38figure this out
3:00:40i don't pretend to have all the answers
3:00:43i would value your
3:00:45opinion though
3:00:47as to whether you believe that breaking
3:00:48up facebook would solve any of the
3:00:51problems that you've discussed today do
3:00:54you think it would
3:00:55so as an algorithmic specialist so this
3:00:58is someone who designs algorithmic
3:01:00experiences i'm actually against the
3:01:02breaking up of facebook because even
3:01:04looking inside of just facebook itself
3:01:06so not even facebook and instagram you
3:01:08see the problems of engagement based
3:01:09ranking repeat themselves
3:01:11so the problems here are about the
3:01:13design of algorithms of ai and the idea
3:01:15that ai is not intelligent
3:01:18and if you break up instagram and
3:01:20facebook from each other it's likely so
3:01:22i used to work on pinterest
3:01:24and the thing that we faced from a
3:01:26business model perspective was that
3:01:27advertisers didn't want to learn
3:01:29multiple advertising platforms
3:01:31that they wanted to learn they got one
3:01:33platform for instagram and facebook and
3:01:35whatever and learning a second one for
3:01:37pinterest pinterest made radically fewer
3:01:40dollars per user and what i'm scared of
3:01:42is right now facebook is the internet
3:01:44for lots of the world if you go to
3:01:46africa the internet is facebook
3:01:48if you split facebook and instagram
3:01:50apart it's likely that most advertising
3:01:52dollars will go to instagram and
3:01:54facebook will continue to be this
3:01:55frankenstein that is altering like that
3:01:58is endangering lives around the world
3:01:59only now there won't be money to fund it
3:02:02so i think oversight and regular
3:02:04oversight and um
3:02:06finding collaborative solutions with
3:02:07congress is going to be key because
3:02:09these systems are going to continue to
3:02:10exist and be dangerous even if broken up
3:02:15thank you
3:02:16thank you
3:02:18senator blackburn
3:02:20uh thank you mr chairman
3:02:23uh
3:02:24i have a text that was just put up by a
3:02:27facebook spokesperson
3:02:31he says just pointing out the fact that
3:02:34uh francis hogan did not work on child
3:02:38safety or instagram or research these
3:02:41issues and has no direct knowledge of
3:02:43the topic from her work at facebook
3:02:47so i will simply say this to mr stone if
3:02:51facebook wants to discuss their
3:02:53targeting of children
3:02:56if they want to discuss
3:02:59their practices
3:03:00of
3:03:01privacy invasion or violations of the
3:03:05children online privacy act i am
3:03:08extending to you an invitation to step
3:03:12forward be sworn in and testify
3:03:15before this committee we would be
3:03:19pleased to hear from you and welcome
3:03:21your testimony
3:03:25one quick question for you what's the
3:03:26biggest threat to facebook's existence
3:03:29is it greed
3:03:30is it uh regulators
3:03:33is it becoming uh extinct or obsolete
3:03:39for teenage
3:03:40users what is the biggest threat to
3:03:42their existence
3:03:44i think the fact that facebook is driven
3:03:46so much by metrics and that these lead
3:03:49to a very heavy emphasis on
3:03:51short-termism that every little
3:03:54individual decision may seem like it
3:03:56helps with growth but if it makes it
3:03:58more and more toxic platform that people
3:04:00don't actually enjoy like when they
3:04:02passed meaningful social interact
3:04:03meaningful social interactions back in
3:04:052018 facebook's own research said that
3:04:08users said it made it less meaningful
3:04:11right i think this
3:04:12aggregated set of short-term decisions
3:04:15endangers facebook's future
3:04:17but sometimes we need to pull it away
3:04:20from
3:04:21as usual help it write new rules if we
3:04:24wanted to be successful in the future so
3:04:26they can't see the forest for the dream
3:04:27yes yes
3:04:30and i know senator klobuchar is waiting
3:04:33so i'll yield my time back and i thank
3:04:35you thanks senator blackburn
3:04:37thank you very much and thank you to
3:04:39both of you for your leadership and all
3:04:41three of us are on the judiciary
3:04:43committee so we're also working on a
3:04:44host of other
3:04:46issues including
3:04:48the app store issues um which is
3:04:51unrelated to facebook actually uh
3:04:54including issues relating to
3:04:56dominant platforms when they promote
3:04:58their own content or engage in
3:05:00exclusionary conduct which i know is not
3:05:02our topic today i see the thumbs up from
3:05:04you ms hogan which i appreciate
3:05:06um i think this idea of establishing
3:05:09some rules of the road
3:05:11for these tech platforms um goes beyond
3:05:15the kid protection that we so dearly
3:05:18need to do and i just want to make sure
3:05:19you agree with me on that totally uh i
3:05:22was shocked when i saw the new york
3:05:23times story a couple weeks ago about
3:05:25facebook using its own platform to
3:05:27promote positive news about itself
3:05:29i was like wow
3:05:31i knew you shaped our reality i wasn't
3:05:33aware it was that much right and that's
3:05:35a lot of the work uh that we're doing
3:05:36over there so i want to get to something
3:05:38senator young was talking about
3:05:39misinformation and
3:05:41senator lujan and i have put together a
3:05:44an exception actually to the 230
3:05:46immunity when it comes to
3:05:48vaccine misinformation in the middle of
3:05:50a public health crisis
3:05:52last week youtube announced it was
3:05:54swiftly banning all anti-vaccine
3:05:57misinformation and i've long called on
3:06:00facebook to take similar steps they've
3:06:01take taken some steps um but do you
3:06:04think they can remove this content and
3:06:07do they put sufficient resources we know
3:06:09the effect of this we know that over
3:06:11half the people that haven't gotten the
3:06:13vaccines it's because of something that
3:06:14they've seen on social media i know the
3:06:17guy i walked into a cafe and said his
3:06:19mother-in-law wouldn't get a vaccine
3:06:21because she thought a microchip would be
3:06:22planted in her arm could you
3:06:25which is false i'm just saying that for
3:06:26the record here um could in case it gets
3:06:29put on social media could you uh talk
3:06:32about are there
3:06:33are there enough resources to stop this
3:06:35from happening
3:06:36um i do not believe facebook as
3:06:39currently structured has the capability
3:06:41to stop vaccine misinformation because
3:06:43they're overly reliant on artificial
3:06:45intelligence systems that they
3:06:46themselves say will likely never get
3:06:48more than 10 to 20 of content there you
3:06:50go
3:06:52and yet it's a company that what the cap
3:06:54over a trillion dollars one of the
3:06:56world's biggest companies that we've
3:06:58ever known and that's what really
3:07:00bothers me here uh senator lujan and i
3:07:03also have pointed out um the issue with
3:07:05content moderators does facebook have
3:07:07enough content moderations for content
3:07:10in spanish and other languages besides
3:07:13english
3:07:14um one of the things that was disclosed
3:07:18we have we have documentation that shows
3:07:21how much operational investment there
3:07:22was by different languages
3:07:24and it showed a consistent pattern of
3:07:27under investment in languages that are
3:07:28not english
3:07:30um i
3:07:32am deeply concerned about facebook's
3:07:33ability to operate in a safe way in
3:07:35languages beyond maybe the top 20 in the
3:07:37world okay thank you
3:07:40uh we go back to eating disorders today
3:07:42you've said that you have documents
3:07:44indicating facebook is doing studies on
3:07:46kids under 13 even though technically no
3:07:48kids under 13 are permitted on the
3:07:50platform
3:07:51the potential for eating disorder
3:07:53content to be shown to these children
3:07:55raises serious concern senator
3:07:56blumenthal's been working on this i've
3:07:58long been focused on this eating
3:08:00disorder issue given the mortality rates
3:08:03are you aware of studies facebook has
3:08:05conducted about whether kids under 13
3:08:08under 13 on the platform are nudged
3:08:10towards content related to eating
3:08:12disorders or unhealthy diet practices
3:08:14cnn also did investigation on this front
3:08:18i have not seen specific studies
3:08:20regarding
3:08:21uh eating disorders in under the age of
3:08:2313 but i have seen research that
3:08:26indicates that they are aware
3:08:28that teenagers coach tweens who are on
3:08:31the platform
3:08:33to not reveal too much
3:08:35to um not post too often and that they
3:08:38have categorized that as a myth that you
3:08:40can't be authentic on the platform
3:08:42and that the marketing team should talk
3:08:44should try to advertise to teenagers to
3:08:46stop coaching tweens that way
3:08:49um so we i believe we've shared that
3:08:51document with congress exactly well
3:08:53thank you and we'll be looking more
3:08:54speaking of the research issue
3:08:57um facebook has tried to downplay the
3:09:00internal research that was done saying
3:09:02it was unrela reliable
3:09:05it seems to me that they're trying to
3:09:07mislead us there the research was
3:09:08extensive surveying hundreds of
3:09:10thousands of people traveling around the
3:09:12world to interview users in your view
3:09:14are the
3:09:15internal researchers at facebook who
3:09:16examine how users are affected by the
3:09:19platform
3:09:20um
3:09:22is their work thorough
3:09:24are they experienced is it fair for
3:09:26facebook to throw them under the bus
3:09:28facebook has one of the top ranked
3:09:30research programs in in in the tech
3:09:32industry like they've invested more in
3:09:34it than and i than i believe any other
3:09:35social media platform and
3:09:38the some of the biggest heroes inside
3:09:40the company are the researchers because
3:09:41they are boldly asking real questions
3:09:44and being willing to say awkward truths
3:09:46um the fact that facebook is throwing
3:09:48them under the bus i think is
3:09:49unacceptable and i just want researchers
3:09:52to know that i stand with them and that
3:09:53i see them or maybe we should say as the
3:09:55name of one book the ugly truth uh what
3:09:58about facebook blocking researchers at
3:10:01nyu from accessing the platform does
3:10:03that concern you these are outside
3:10:05researchers
3:10:06i am deeply concerned so for context for
3:10:08those who are not familiar with this
3:10:09research there are researchers at nyu
3:10:12who because facebook
3:10:14does not publish
3:10:16enough data on political advertisements
3:10:18or how they are distributed these are
3:10:20advertisements that influence our
3:10:22democracy and how it operates
3:10:24they created a plug-in that allowed
3:10:27people to opt-in to volunteer to help
3:10:29collect this data collectively and
3:10:31facebook lashed out at them and even
3:10:33banned some of their individual accounts
3:10:35the fact that facebook is so scared of
3:10:37even basic transparency that it goes out
3:10:40of its way to block researchers who are
3:10:42asking awkward questions shows you the
3:10:44need for congressional oversight and why
3:10:46we need to do federal research and
3:10:47federal regulations on this very good
3:10:50thank you thank you for your work
3:10:53thanks senator klobuchar uh senator
3:10:55markey
3:10:58thank you um
3:10:59thank you mr chairman thank you for your
3:11:02incredible leadership on this issue
3:11:04um
3:11:05as early as
3:11:062012 facebook has wanted to allow
3:11:10children under the age of 12
3:11:12to use this platform
3:11:14at that time in 2012 i wrote a letter to
3:11:16facebook
3:11:17asking questions about what data it
3:11:20planned to collect and whether the
3:11:22company intended to serve targeted ads
3:11:24at children
3:11:26now here we are nine years later
3:11:28debating the very same issues
3:11:31today uh ms hogan
3:11:34you've made it abundantly clear why
3:11:36facebook wants to bring more children
3:11:38onto the platform
3:11:40it's to hook them early just like
3:11:41cigarettes so that they become lifelong
3:11:43users so facebook's profits increase
3:11:47yet we should also ask why in the last
3:11:49nine years
3:11:51has the company not launched facebook
3:11:53for kids or instagram for kids after all
3:11:56from the testimony here today facebook
3:11:57appears to act without regard to any
3:12:00moral code or any conscience or instead
3:12:03puts profit about people profit above
3:12:05all else the reason why facebook hasn't
3:12:09officially permitted kids 12 and under
3:12:12to use its platform is because the child
3:12:15online privacy protection act of 1998
3:12:19that i'm the author of exists
3:12:22because there is a privacy law on the
3:12:24books which i authored that gives the
3:12:26federal trade commission regulatory
3:12:28power to stop websites and social media
3:12:30companies from invading the privacy of
3:12:34our children 12 and under
3:12:37that's why we need to expand the child
3:12:39online privacy protection act that's why
3:12:42we need to pass
3:12:44the kids act that senator blumenthal and
3:12:46i have introduced and why we need an
3:12:49algorithmic justice act
3:12:51to pass because the absence of
3:12:53regulation
3:12:54leads to harming teens stoking division
3:12:57damaging our democracy
3:12:59um that's what you've told us today so
3:13:01miss hogan i want you to come back to
3:13:04the protections
3:13:05that you are calling on us
3:13:08to enact this isn't complicated
3:13:11we're going to be told online all day
3:13:13with these paid
3:13:15um
3:13:16facebook people oh congress can't act
3:13:18they're not experts it's too complicated
3:13:22for
3:13:22uh congress just get out of the way
3:13:24you're not experts well
3:13:26this isn't complicated facebook and its
3:13:29big tech lobbyists are blocking
3:13:31my bills to protect kids because it
3:13:33would cost them money that's how
3:13:36complicated it is so let's start with
3:13:38the kids act and senator blumenthal and
3:13:40i that would ban influencer marketing to
3:13:43kids today's popular influencers pedal
3:13:46products while they flaunt their lavish
3:13:49lifestyles to young users can you
3:13:52explain
3:13:53how allowing influencer marketing to
3:13:55teens and children makes facebook more
3:13:58money
3:14:03the business model that provides mostly
3:14:06a great deal of the content on instagram
3:14:08is one where
3:14:10people produce content for free
3:14:12they put on instagram free no one's
3:14:14charged for it but many of those content
3:14:16creators have sponsorships from
3:14:19from brands or from other
3:14:22affiliate programs um
3:14:25facebook needs those content creators to
3:14:27continue to make content so that we will
3:14:29view content and in the process view
3:14:31more ads
3:14:33facebook
3:14:35provides tools to support influencers
3:14:37and who do influencer marketing because
3:14:39it gives them the supply of content that
3:14:42allows them to keep people on the
3:14:43platform viewing more ads making more
3:14:45money for them
3:14:46yeah so
3:14:48i am actually the author of the 1990
3:14:51children's television act what does that
3:14:53do
3:14:54well it says to all the television
3:14:56networks in america stop preying upon
3:14:58children stop using all of your power in
3:15:02order to try to get young children in
3:15:05our country hooked on the products that
3:15:06are going to be sold we had to pass a
3:15:08law
3:15:09to ban television stations from doing
3:15:11this
3:15:12that's why i knew that after my law
3:15:15passed in 1996 to break up the
3:15:17monopolies
3:15:19of the telecommunications industry and
3:15:20allow in
3:15:22the googles and the
3:15:24facebooks and all the other companies
3:15:27you name it that we would need a child
3:15:29privacy protection there because
3:15:31everyone would just move over to that
3:15:33new venue
3:15:34it was pretty obvious and of course the
3:15:36industry said no way we're going to have
3:15:38privacy laws for adults and they blocked
3:15:40me from putting that on the books in
3:15:421996.
3:15:43but at least for children i got up to
3:15:45age 12 that's all i could get
3:15:47out of the industry but
3:15:50we also
3:15:52know that
3:15:53uh as time has moved on it they become
3:15:57even more sophisticated
3:15:58so that
3:16:00the kids act is necessary
3:16:02to stop children and teen apps from
3:16:04being features such as likes and
3:16:07follower accounts that quantify
3:16:09popularity
3:16:10ms hogan can you explain how allowing
3:16:13these features that create an online
3:16:16popularity contest makes facebook more
3:16:18money
3:16:21um
3:16:23just to make sure so i i am only
3:16:25familiar with issues regarding teens
3:16:27from the research i have read at
3:16:29facebook's um so i wanted to put that
3:16:30caveat on there um the research i have
3:16:33seen with regard to quantifiable
3:16:35popularity is that as long as comments
3:16:37are allowed so this is not a
3:16:39quantitative thing this is just comments
3:16:41as long as long as comments are still on
3:16:43posts on instagram take just taking
3:16:46likes off instagram
3:16:48doesn't fix the social comparison
3:16:50problem that you know teenage girls are
3:16:52smart they see that sally is prettier
3:16:54than them her pictures are really good
3:16:56she gets tons of comments they don't
3:16:57give her many comments right um and so
3:17:00uh i do think we need larger
3:17:02interventions than just removing um
3:17:05quantitative measures um
3:17:07facebook has a product that is very
3:17:10attractive
3:17:12the reason why they have the study of
3:17:13problematic use is because it is kind of
3:17:15addictive
3:17:16and those kinds of things like having
3:17:19lots of little feedback loops keeps kids
3:17:21engaged
3:17:22and like i mentioned earlier part of why
3:17:24facebook switched over to meaningful
3:17:26social interactions was it found that if
3:17:28you got more likes more comments more
3:17:30research you produced more content
3:17:33so having those systems of little
3:17:36rewards makes people produce more
3:17:37content which means we view more content
3:17:39and we view more ads which makes them
3:17:41more money okay and
3:17:43the kids act that senator blumenthal and
3:17:46i are advocating for also
3:17:48prohibits amplification of dangerous and
3:17:50violent
3:17:52content to children and teens can you
3:17:54explain how algorithms pushing that
3:17:56dangerous content makes facebook more
3:17:58money
3:18:00and i don't think facebook ever set out
3:18:02to intentionally promote
3:18:04divisive extreme polarizing content i do
3:18:08think though that they are aware of the
3:18:10side effects of the choices they have
3:18:12made around amplification and they know
3:18:15that algorithmic-based ranking so
3:18:17engagement-based ranking keeps you on
3:18:19their sites longer
3:18:20you have long you have longer sessions
3:18:22you show up more often and that makes
3:18:24them more money
3:18:25so do you believe we have to ban all
3:18:28features
3:18:29that quantify popularity as a starting
3:18:32point in legislation
3:18:35um
3:18:36as i as i covered before the internal
3:18:39research i've seen is that removing
3:18:41things like likes alone if you don't
3:18:42remove things like comments
3:18:44it doesn't have a huge impact on social
3:18:46comparison so i do believe we need to
3:18:47have a more integrated solution for
3:18:50these issues do should we ban targeted
3:18:52advertisements to children i strongly
3:18:55encourage banning targeted
3:18:56advertisements to children and we need
3:18:58to have oversight in terms of i think
3:19:00the algorithms will likely still learn
3:19:03the interests of kids and match ads to
3:19:05those kids even if the advertiser can't
3:19:07articulate and want to target on this
3:19:09interest right how much money does
3:19:11facebook made make from targeting
3:19:13children
3:19:14i don't know what fraction of their
3:19:15revenue comes from children okay so
3:19:17ultimately children are not commodities
3:19:19no they've always been given
3:19:21historically special protections that's
3:19:24what the children's television act of
3:19:261990 is all about
3:19:28they've always been given this special
3:19:31safety zone so that children can grow up
3:19:34without being preyed upon
3:19:37by marketers
3:19:39and i was a boy
3:19:40and the salesman would knock on the
3:19:42front door my mother would just say tell
3:19:44him i'm not home that man is not getting
3:19:47into our living room
3:19:49well i would say to my
3:19:51mother but you are home not to him
3:19:55well
3:19:56we need to give parents the ability just
3:19:58to say
3:19:59no one's home for you
3:20:01and your company and your attempts to
3:20:03prey upon children to get into our
3:20:05living room
3:20:06that's our moment in history we have to
3:20:08make sure that we respond to the
3:20:09challenge thank you mr chairman thank
3:20:12you uh senator markey and my thanks to
3:20:15senator markey for his leadership over
3:20:17many years
3:20:18on protecting children uh as you've
3:20:20heard he
3:20:22was a
3:20:24champion in the house of representatives
3:20:26before coming here well before i was in
3:20:29the united states senate but around the
3:20:30time i was elected attorney general i've
3:20:32been very pleased and honored to work
3:20:35with him on
3:20:36uh legislation now going forward and i
3:20:39join him in thanking you i have just a
3:20:41few concluding questions and
3:20:43i seem to be the last one left standing
3:20:46here so the good news is i don't think
3:20:49um we'll have others but
3:20:51uh as you may know
3:20:53um
3:20:55you do know my office created
3:20:57an instagram user identified as a 13
3:21:00year old
3:21:01girl
3:21:02she followed a few
3:21:04easily identifiable
3:21:06accounts on
3:21:08weight loss dieting eating disorders and
3:21:12she was deluged literally within a day
3:21:15of
3:21:17content
3:21:19pushed to her by
3:21:21algorithms
3:21:23that in effect promoted
3:21:27self-injury and eating disorders are you
3:21:29surprised by that fact
3:21:31i'm not surprised by that fact facebook
3:21:33has internal research where they have
3:21:35done even
3:21:36more gentle versions of that experiment
3:21:38where they have started from things like
3:21:40interest in healthy recipes so not even
3:21:42extreme dieting and because of the
3:21:44nature of engagement based ranking and
3:21:47amplification of interests
3:21:49that ver that that imaginary user was
3:21:51pushed or that that real account was
3:21:53pushed towards extreme dieting and pro
3:21:55anorexia content very rapidly
3:21:58and that's the algorithm that's the
3:22:00algorithm
3:22:01that algorithm could be changed the
3:22:04algorithm definitely could be changed i
3:22:05i have first-hand experience from having
3:22:07worked at pinterest pinterest used to be
3:22:09an application that was heavily based
3:22:11just on you follow certain people's pins
3:22:14and those are put into your feed
3:22:16and over time it appears to be much much
3:22:18more heavily based on recommendations
3:22:20that the algorithm would figure out what
3:22:22are you interested in
3:22:25you can have wonderful experiences that
3:22:27are based on human interactions so these
3:22:29are human scale technologies not
3:22:31computers choosing what we focus on
3:22:35so the average parent listening here
3:22:38worried about
3:22:39their daughter or son
3:22:42being deluged with these kinds of
3:22:46content
3:22:48would want that kind of algorithm
3:22:50changed i would think and would welcome
3:22:52the oversight that you're recommending
3:22:55i i believe parents deserve more options
3:22:57and more choices
3:22:58and today they don't know even what they
3:23:00could be asking for i just received by
3:23:04text literally
3:23:06about
3:23:0715 minutes ago
3:23:09a message from someone in connecticut
3:23:13and i'm going to read it to you
3:23:15it's from a dad
3:23:21i'm in tears right now
3:23:24watching your interaction
3:23:26with francis haugen
3:23:29my 15 year old daughter loved her body
3:23:31at 14
3:23:32was on instagram constantly
3:23:36and maybe posting too much suddenly she
3:23:38started hating her body
3:23:40her body dysmorphia now anorexia
3:23:44and was in deep deep trouble before we
3:23:46found treatment
3:23:48i fear she'll never be the same
3:23:52i'm brokenhearted
3:23:55i think people tend to lose sight of the
3:23:57real world impact
3:23:58yeah
3:24:00and um
3:24:02i think that's the reason that you're
3:24:03here
3:24:05um i'd just like to invite you
3:24:08if you have any words to those
3:24:11other
3:24:14employees at big tech the workers who
3:24:16may be troubled by the misconduct or
3:24:19unethical conduct
3:24:21that they see what you would tell them
3:24:26we live in
3:24:28a pattern that we have seen throughout
3:24:29time with regard to technologies is that
3:24:32humans are very crafty people like we
3:24:34find interesting solutions
3:24:36we often get out over our skis
3:24:38right we we develop things that are of a
3:24:40larger scale than we know really know
3:24:42how to handle
3:24:43and what we have done in the past is
3:24:45when we see this happen we take a step
3:24:47back and we find institutions and we
3:24:49find frameworks for doing these things
3:24:51in a safe way
3:24:54we live in a moment where whistleblowers
3:24:56are very important because these
3:24:58technological systems are walled off
3:25:00they are very complicated they're things
3:25:02that you need to be a specialist to
3:25:04really understand the consequences of
3:25:06and the fact that we've been having the
3:25:07exact same kinds of false choice
3:25:10discussions about what to do about
3:25:11facebook you know is it about privacy or
3:25:13oversight is it about censorship or
3:25:16safety like the fact that we're being
3:25:18asked these false choices is just an
3:25:20illustration of what happens when the
3:25:22real solutions are hidden inside of
3:25:24companies
3:25:25we need more
3:25:27tech employees to come forward through
3:25:28legitimate channels like the sec or
3:25:30congress
3:25:32to make sure that the public has the
3:25:33information they need in order to have
3:25:36technologies be human-centric
3:25:38not not not computer-centric
3:25:41thank you
3:25:42uh on that note we'll conclude
3:25:45thank you for an extraordinary
3:25:48testimony uh i think that uh anybody
3:25:52watching would be impressed and much
3:25:53better informed and you've done
3:25:57america a real public service i think
3:25:59thank you
3:26:00uh the record will remain open for a
3:26:03week i'm sorry for two weeks any
3:26:04senators who want to
3:26:06submit questions for the record should
3:26:08do so by october for
3:26:09october 19th
3:26:11this hearing is adjourned thank you
3:26:22so
3:26:32so

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