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Life and Crimes of Henry Lee Lucas: The Confession Killer Part 2-Interview of J.R. Howard Former ... — Transcript

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0:01[Music]
0:16[Applause]
0:20Hello, this is Unexplained America and
0:22I'm your host, Lisa. this week. This is
0:25a continuence of the life and crimes of
0:28Henry Lee Lucas. This is part two. If
0:32you haven't listened to part one yet,
0:34just stop, go back, listen to part one.
0:36Now, before we get started, a little
0:38business. Thank you so much for
0:40listening. Please follow, like, leave a
0:43comment. You can find me on all the
0:45social medias. You go to
0:46unexplainedamea.com,
0:48but definitely find me on Facebook, Tik
0:51Tok, Instagram, everywhere you can find
0:53me. and feel free to message if you have
0:56any content requests. Any anything and
0:58everything that you do helps out the
1:00podcast. Like with part one, listener
1:03discretion advised. There is mention of
1:07assault, rape. This is a heinous murder
1:10case situation, heinous items that Henry
1:13Lee Lucas either did or discussed. Part
1:16one focused on Henry Lee Lucas's
1:20beginnings from his birth at 1936 until
1:25the time of June of 1983 when he was
1:29arrested and then he began his
1:32confessionals. Okay, that and also in
1:35part one like I did very much look at
1:38detailed documentation that I could find
1:41to get some dates and names accurate.
1:45Those items discussed were discussed
1:47from the viewpoint of Henry Lee Lucas
1:49and what he put out there in his own
1:52booktelling. This episode is going to
1:55pick up it's going to pick up from just
1:58factual information actually happened
2:01and no longer from his book because his
2:02book pretty much ended at the time of
2:05his arrest. Like the book was written in
2:071985. There wasn't much after that time
2:11frame and the book really did not focus
2:13on anything factual as far as dates and
2:16anything like that. Yeah. So, we're done
2:18with that part. We are going to be
2:20picking up and then we'll also kind of
2:21talk about kind of go back a little bit
2:24to kind of weigh in on some more facts
2:28because of course Henry Lucas mentioned
2:31the hand of death and that crime
2:33organization that him and his you and
2:36Ois were involved in. So yeah, so this
2:38will kind of go back and be descriptions
2:41from other people other than Henry Lee
2:44Lucas. Okay. So yeah, so we're trying to
2:46kind of see as much as we can of the
2:51truth behind the stories. And again,
2:54this was really I will say this is the
2:56hardest case to follow. And if you've
2:59looked at any articles or even if you've
3:02watched documentaries like you'll notice
3:04that in the documentaries they'll focus
3:06on these little bit or side events in in
3:09this whole a lot going on. There were
3:12indictments without convictions. There
3:14were convictions overturned and of
3:16course, you know, Henry Le Lucas from
3:18the beginning was confessing to all
3:21sorts of things and then it went from up
3:24to 600 possible murder cases to people
3:28eventually thinking he maybe only
3:29committed three murders technically. So,
3:32we're we're going to try to focus on
3:34actual facts, actual events, actual
3:37date, actual convictions in this part
3:40two. And then at the end, so I'm going
3:42to cover to the time Henry Lucas, we're
3:45going to going to focus on 1983 and then
3:48get all the way to the end of his life.
3:50And then at the end of that, there will
3:52be an interview session with Mr. J.R.
3:55Howard. I will let him discuss his
3:58background and his actual getting to
4:01meet Henry Leucas and everything about
4:02that. So definitely listen to the end.
4:06So we're going to get started and we're
4:08going to go back. I kind of felt this
4:10was important. In the 70s you had Henry
4:14Lee. He we know he was in jail from 1960
4:19to 1970. So he was invicted of his
4:22mother's murder during that time frame.
4:24We know that. And then he pretty much
4:26went back to prison and did not get out
4:29of prison until 1975. And that was for
4:31the kidnapping. So we so we know that.
4:33So pretty much after 75, he's according
4:38to his family, he is floating amongst
4:41his different family members. Of course,
4:42he had many half brothers and sisters
4:45and then he had many nephews and such.
4:47And so it said that he was drifting. He
4:50was traveling. Some of the family lived
4:53in Maryland. some lived in Michigan. He
4:55was kind of going back and forth between
4:57where his family would let him stay for
5:00a few days in this um otherwise he was
5:02just again drifting. He was in and out
5:04of vehicles. he was in and out of maybe
5:06even homeless shelters and such. In his
5:10book and what we discuss quote unquote
5:12was how he met Audis during the time
5:14that he was married because Henry Lee he
5:16was briefly married even from the time
5:18he got out of prison about right there
5:20in 1975 he was married to Betty during
5:23that time and then of he stated he left
5:25she was quote unquote lazy her
5:27interviews say that he was molesting her
5:30daughters that she had from previous
5:31marriage. He had a lot. He was just all
5:33over the place. But Otis Tulle says that
5:36he met officially met, according to Ois
5:40met Henry Lee in a rescue mission in
5:44Florida in 1976.
5:47And then at that time, he does introduce
5:51Henry Lee to his mother. So Odis's
5:54mother's name is Sarah Harley, and she's
5:57taking care of like her grandkids. So
5:59these would be Odis' niece and nephew.
6:02So she is taking care of the kids and
6:03the kids are Freda and Frank Pal. And
6:07again, Freda Pal is the Becky mentioned.
6:10Okay, so he's basically meeting
6:13Odyssey's family in 1976.
6:16And by the way, that makes Becky around
6:199 when she's meeting Henry Lee Lucas for
6:22the first time, 9 years old. And I will
6:25say everyone that encounters Henry Lee,
6:29they talk about him very kindly. Like
6:32his his outward demeanor is very simple
6:37and quiet and kind. He's not aggressive.
6:41He doesn't curse. He's just very nice.
6:44He wants to be helpful. So Sarah
6:46immediately likes him. She does let him
6:49stay with them at different times and be
6:52around the children of course and he's
6:55just described always and you'll kind of
6:57see a pattern but he is described as
7:00being very kind. People take him as just
7:03very gentle, kind man, a very helpful
7:08man. It's very interesting to me. So
7:10he's meeting Ois, meeting Odis' family
7:13in 1976. Okay. So, to kind of help
7:17things along, Becky was nine. So, he
7:20doesn't go on the road, quote unquote,
7:22with her until January of 1982. So, this
7:27is the time frame where he and Becky,
7:30just the two of them, they go out on the
7:33road. By now, she is she's 14, 15 years
7:36old only. They go out to California and
7:40they do meet Jack and Obera Smart. Okay.
7:44So they they meet them. The smarts allow
7:48for Henry and Becky to stay with them.
7:51They're doing work for them. So they're
7:52living with them. It's like from January
7:55until about May. And then at that time,
7:58Ober Soara has a mother in Texas named
8:01Kate. So this is where Kate Rich comes
8:04in. Kate is like 80 years old. She is
8:08living out in Texas on her own. She's
8:10elderly. Vera is Henry and Becky are
8:13super helpful for us. We're going to
8:15send them to Texas to live on Kate
8:19Kate's farm area ranch that she's got
8:22her acorage and just help her. So they
8:25go Becky and Henry are now in Texas with
8:29Kate. So Kate's farm, she does live in
8:33Montigue County, Texas. Probably saying
8:36that wrong. I think it sounds like
8:37people are saying Montahue.
8:40I can't really tell based on the Texas
8:42way to pronounce it how they're
8:43pronouncing it. I'll be honest, this
8:46area of Texas and Texas is huge. So, to
8:48just kind of give you an idea, it's like
8:49a little north west of Fort Worth,
8:53Dallas area. So, to kind of give you
8:54guys a guide of where he is here. This
8:57is now May of 1982
9:00and Becky and Henry are living with
9:04Kate. It doesn't say what happens, but
9:06Kate's other daughter, so this isn't
9:08Ober. This is another daughter. She
9:11kicks Henry and Becky off of the ranch.
9:14Okay, so she's what she fires them. Kate
9:17liked Henry. She still liked Henry even
9:21after this. Like she was still um there
9:23were comments and interviews later that
9:25talked about how she still liked him,
9:27wanted to go fishing. She still liked
9:28him. something about what was going on.
9:30I guess her other daughter had probably
9:33some intuition there and was these these
9:35people have to go. So this is basically
9:37May of 1982. And now this brings us to
9:42the Moors. Henry, we had talked about
9:45the pastor that took him in in Texas. So
9:48interviewed after the fact, Ruben Moore
9:50and his wife FA, they discussed Reuben
9:53first picked up Henry and Becky and they
9:56were hitchhiking. They had no car. They
9:58had no money. They had been kicked off
10:00of Kate's farm there. So, and this is
10:02this is May 1982. It's a warm summer
10:05day. And he sees them. He sees Becky is
10:09a very young girl. She says that she
10:12introduces herself as Freda. It says she
10:14goes by Becky and that her and Henry Lee
10:17were married. And he says, now Reuben is
10:20explaining this. Henry was very polite
10:23and kind. He said he had been working as
10:25a rat ranch hand for 80-year-old Kate
10:27Rich which he he had and she lived near
10:30Ringold in that Monagu County. Now Ruben
10:32had a ranch and he was creating a church
10:35and the church was called House of
10:37Prayer and it was a place and a church
10:40for everyone. So he offered on that day
10:42that he picked him up, he offered for
10:43Henry and Becky to come live there and
10:46work there at the church. So for three
10:49months from now this was May, June,
10:51July. For three months Henry is
10:53considered a very valuable part of this
10:57community by Reuben. Very valuable. He
10:59is working hard. He's telling Reuben
11:01that he won't even accept money. They're
11:04living there. They're they're eating
11:05there. So he's providing work and he's
11:07even the neighbors of the ranch where
11:10Reuben and his wife live, they liked
11:12Henry. He was doing things for everyone,
11:15including and he was still doing things
11:16for Kate. Like I said, he was still,
11:18even though her daughter ran him off,
11:19like he was still close to Kate, still
11:22doing things and being nice for Kate.
11:24Eventually, Henry is given an old Ford
11:28by some grateful people in the community
11:30that he had done some work for. Okay, so
11:32he finally has a car. Reuben did think
11:35it was very odd that Henry and Becky
11:38were together because she was I mean,
11:40they could tell they didn't know how
11:41young she was, but they could tell she
11:43was young. And Henry is 46 or so at this
11:45time. That seemed very odd. And anytime
11:48that Henry was asked questions about
11:50their past, he would evade any questions
11:53about the past. They want to talk about
11:54it. In August of 1982, Henry and Becky
11:58come to Reuben and say that they were
12:00going to go to Florida to visit family.
12:02They were going to go back to Florida
12:03where she's from. Reuben said he dropped
12:05the two of them off at a truck stop and
12:07gave Henry $125
12:10and said, "Good luck." And this was
12:12August 20th. The next day, Henry comes
12:14back to the church and Henry is crying.
12:18He's saying Becky ran off with a truck
12:20driver and as soon as he could, he was
12:22going to go look for her. He continues
12:25to work there at the church. His
12:27behavior is off. Ruben and Fay are
12:30noticing he is not behaving the way that
12:33he had. He something's happened. He
12:35doesn't bathe. He's not changing
12:37clothes. He's not shaving. He seems to
12:39be not sleeping or eating. like he is
12:42just obviously distraught. This whole
12:44thing with Becky has him distraught.
12:46Well, after a few days, so this is
12:48August 22nd, 23rd, Henry leaves and then
12:51he returns very shortly thereafter
12:53saying had found Becky in a motel room
12:56in San Antonio and his marriage was
12:59over. He's come back found her in
13:01September after Reuben and Henry. Reuben
13:04has construction crew. They're doing
13:06roofing. They go out on a job and
13:08Henry's on this job and they do this job
13:10in Oklahoma. Henry does clean himself
13:12up. This is in September. Then Reuben
13:14says he drops out of sight for at least
13:16a few days. And this is the same time
13:19frame in September where Kate Rich
13:22disappears. So Grugan all of a sudden
13:25Henry cleaned himself up and all of a
13:26sudden he dropped out of sight. Kate
13:28Rich has disappeared and a few days
13:30after Kate disappears, Sheriff WF
13:33Conway, so he comes to Reuben and he's
13:36asking all kinds of questions about
13:38Henry and he tells him Henry is a
13:41suspect in Kate's disappearance. So this
13:43is September 1982. Henry shows back up
13:47and this is when Conway arrests him.
13:49Kind of the first times Conway had an
13:52arrest warrant actually out of Maryland
13:54for autotheft and he picks Henry up. But
13:56Conway can't hold Henry because Marilyn
13:59won't extradite him. So, they won't do
14:01anything basically with their warrant.
14:03Now, Conway by this time, he knows
14:07Henry's background. Like, he knows about
14:09him killing his mother. He knows about
14:11all of his prison stays, the kidnapping,
14:14whatever. He knows this. And then he
14:16tells Reuben about it. Reuben and Fay
14:18are frightened. They are absolutely
14:21terrified. They have this man whom they
14:23thought I thought Henry was very nice,
14:25kind, a drifter, nice and kind,
14:28hardworking man. And now they're
14:30frightened. They're completely
14:30frightened. Reuben doesn't ask Henry to
14:33leave because he's afraid that he'll get
14:36upset and then come back and hurt them.
14:37So, they're just living there in fear.
14:40FA, Reuben's wife, she outright tells
14:42Henry she will shoot. Like, she has a
14:45gun. I will shoot you if you do anything
14:47weird. So, she makes it very clear cuz
14:49Sheriff Conway is coming around. They
14:51know what's going on. They don't. Henry
14:53doesn't know the extent of what they
14:55know, but he knows that they know
14:57something. And so she makes it very
14:59clear that she's not going to take
15:01anything any crap off of him because
15:03evidently he was giving her weird looks.
15:05And yeah, she she's frightened. It's
15:07natural. Conway is keeping an eye on
15:10Henry. Obviously, he's looking at any
15:12way possible during this time to arrest
15:16Henry because he thinks he very much did
15:19something to Kate. Finally, Fate tells
15:22Conway about this 22 pistol that Lucas
15:26had had from the beginning that was
15:28hidden in his apartment there. And
15:30Conway finds this out and he said, "This
15:31is all I needed to arrest him." And he
15:33can fully arrest. And this is by June,
15:35guys. Henry's living there. They're
15:37afraid. This goes on from like October
15:4082 to June 1983. So Henry does tell
15:43Reuben at once once Henry is arrested by
15:47Conway. He kind of tells Reuben. Reuben
15:49is still coming to see him. I gave you
15:51every this quote unquote I gave you
15:53every possible clue. I don't know why
15:56you never caught on. And he said, I'm
15:57sorry it all happened on your place.
16:00Ruben had said about the whole situation
16:02with Henry. He fooled a lot of people.
16:04He was always busy helping people. it
16:07through the judgment. And during this
16:10time between October 82 and Henry's
16:13officially off of Reuben's ranch, there
16:15was a suicide event for Henry. Like he
16:19tried to, you know, basically carbon
16:20monoxide poisoning. He so he tried to
16:23kill himself there at the ranch at
16:25Ruven's ranch and caught it in time.
16:28That is the actual telling of how Henry
16:32connected with Otis and how he got to
16:35Texas, how that all happened. And so he
16:37was actually that part is Ober smart. He
16:40actually sent Henry to look after her
16:43mother, take care of her mother.
16:44Obviously, she didn't know who Henry was
16:47and what he was capable of sent him. But
16:49obviously, it's interesting that Ober's
16:52sister kind of knew something was up and
16:54had ran Henry and Becky off the off of
16:56Kate's farms. It's very interesting the
16:58true witness aspect of, you know, so
17:01obviously this hand of death situation.
17:04I it's hard for me like when I was
17:05reading it, it was very hard for me to
17:08not even I mean I hate to say it to not
17:10even laugh about I it was just laughable
17:12people worshiping the devil. I
17:14understand that is real and then obvious
17:16it is very true about or crime but just
17:18the laughable part was thinking these
17:21people sought after Henry Lee Lucas to
17:24be a part of that Otis tool. That was
17:27the hard part. So hearing the actual
17:30interviews, Reuben and then Audis, that
17:32was very that made a lot more sense to
17:35this all came about type thing of how
17:38Henry went from Florida to California to
17:41Texas. It is officially June 11th, 1983.
17:45Sheriff Conway, who kind of knew Henry
17:48was responsible for Kate's death from
17:50the beginning, had had thought it from
17:53September of 82. So he has arrested
17:56Henry. He is in jail by June 16th. Henry
18:01does send a note to the sheriff
18:03confessing to killing Kate for her
18:05murder in September of 1982. And this is
18:08from him in his letter. I I and this is
18:11quote unquote. I have tried to get help
18:13so long and no one will help. I have
18:16killed for the past 10 years and no one
18:18will believe it. This is what Henry
18:21wrote to the sheriff. Henry states that
18:23he stabbed Kate Rich. He stuffed her
18:26body in a covert. He then went back and
18:30carried some of her body parts and
18:33burned them in the stove in his
18:34apartment at the house of prayer. He
18:37also in these confessions goes on to
18:40confessing to killing Becky and he leads
18:44police to a field in Denton County where
18:47her scattered bones were. So the police
18:50go, they investigate what Henry has told
18:52them. They find bones, human bones in
18:56the wood burning stove at the apartment
18:58that he kept at the moors. They likewise
19:01find the body of Becky in a field in
19:03Denton County near Interstate 35 East
19:07where Henry said it would be. So he led
19:09them straight to these body parts. Okay.
19:13And they do find them. So they
19:16officially charge Henry on June 16th. So
19:19right away they officially charge Henry
19:22June 16th, 1983 for the stabbing death
19:24of Kate Rich. The date of her murder
19:27they state as September 16th of 1982 as
19:32that was the last date that she was seen
19:34alive by police know cuz Henry you know
19:36from part one there and in really the
19:39book there were zero almost zero dates
19:43or accurate location or dates in his
19:46book. Again, it was very difficult to
19:48kind of follow. They're stating that
19:50Kate was killed September 16th of 1982.
19:53Now, the police also note Henry and
19:55Becky lived with Kate, like we
19:57mentioned, in May of 1982 before being
20:00asked to leave, and that Kate's house
20:02was burned down October 17th of 1982.
20:06That's almost one month after her death.
20:09She disappears. Then her house is burned
20:13to the ground. And this really infused
20:16in Sheriff Conway that Henry was
20:19responsible. Not only is this woman
20:21gone, but now someone's burned her house
20:24down. This is where we're at. By the end
20:28of the month of June in 1983. So by that
20:32time, Henry has been indicted for Kate's
20:36murder. His bail was originally put at a
20:39h 100,000 and then upon his arraignment
20:42hearing. He professes to having killed
20:46the hundred women or more and wanting to
20:49help the police. Um he's laughing about
20:52bail. He's laughing about a lot of
20:54things. He's just dismissing everything.
20:57And the judge at that point in June, he
21:00does increase Henry's bail up to a
21:03million dollars. like a h 100,000 at
21:05that time was pretty standard for a
21:08murder case. Once he knows once the
21:11judge has all the information, he's
21:12like, "No, this this guy is not getting
21:14out under any circumstances." And Henry
21:17just laughs. And then the judge, they
21:19are getting him evaluated. The judge
21:22pretty much decides that Henry is is
21:25capable of standing trial. They set so
21:28the first indictment is Kate. So they
21:31set that trial out originally October.
21:35So this is June 83. The trial for that
21:38is going to be October 83. They do
21:40appoint attorneys. They're doing all the
21:43things to move in that direction. He is
21:44saying that he has killed all these
21:46women. And so naturally police across
21:50the state and then across the country
21:52are talking to him. People are already
21:55not believing Henry. Okay. It's just too
21:58much. There comes like 120 phone calls
22:01coming into Monagu County, 16 different
22:04states trying to see if Henry is their
22:06murderer on their cases and they're
22:09pretty much dismissed. So these cases
22:11are pretty much dismissed. Now in Texas
22:14immediately you have and again this is
22:16just June of 83. So you have Kate Rich
22:19indictment. You have the indictment of
22:22Becky which is for Denton County. Now
22:25you have a Williamson County and these
22:27are all pretty close by Moniku County
22:30like within the realm not not very far
22:32from each other. Now Williamson County,
22:35we'll get into this. This is where of
22:37Sheriff Jim Batwell comes about. A
22:40little side note to Jim, he is highly
22:43respected. He is very popular. So
22:46Sheriff Batwell was actually involved in
22:49the 1966
22:51University of Texas tower shooting. So
22:54he was much younger then. He was flying.
22:58He was trying to figure out like where
23:01this shooter was and tell them and try
23:03to, you know, take him out. And the
23:05shooter was actually shooting at the
23:07airplane that Sheriff Atwell was in.
23:09Again, highly regarded, very respected.
23:14Okay. He has a case in his county. And
23:17so he gets with he gets with Henry and
23:20talks about this case. And basically it
23:22was an unidentified young female. All
23:25that they were calling her was orange
23:28socks. So she was dumped in a culvert
23:30off of I35
23:32like October 31st of 1979.
23:36So Henry, he confesses to that murder.
23:40So he is indicted on that murder. And
23:43then there is another murder out of Hail
23:46County and he is indicted for that. And
23:49it is an unidentified
23:51uh Jane Doe. She was evidently a
23:54hitchhiker according to what Henry said,
23:57but her body was found February 16th of
24:011982
24:02and then she was decapitated. So her
24:05body was found in plain view. Her head
24:07was found in Scottdale, Arizona or near.
24:10He has confessed to all of these
24:13murders. There's four. right away, right
24:15off the bat, you have that indictment.
24:18Now, a little side note to that, that
24:21indictment on the decapitated woman. And
24:25again, when he's confessing, he is going
24:27into some graphic details. He's
24:29discussing how he raped the woman even
24:33when she was dead. Like, he is being
24:35very detailed, very gruesome about these
24:39instances. Okay, little side note, even
24:42to this day, that woman is not
24:44identified or they haven't released her
24:46name. And they did drop quote unquote
24:49those charges. So, he will be indicted
24:51for many things, but actual charges,
24:55actual proceedings will not move forward
24:58except on a few cases. They figured out
25:00he did not do it. They had evidence that
25:03was to the contrary. But he at this time
25:05in 1983, he's saying, "I did it." and
25:08he's giving details and he's like, "Yep,
25:10I killed this woman. I decapitated her."
25:12He's he's talking about all these
25:13horrible things. The same with the
25:15orange socks, the unidentif in
25:17Williamson County. So, you've got four
25:20indictments. You have Henry is in jail.
25:24He is talking to all kinds of police
25:27from across the country. And all of
25:29these things, most of these things will
25:31not pan out. They will not move forward
25:34even within that month. They're they're
25:36naysayers. They're like, "This is kind
25:38of unbelievable." Like people in Texas
25:40are like, "M, I don't think so." Like,
25:41"This just doesn't sound right." You
25:43know, you definitely have these two
25:45bodies, Kate and Becky. That seems very
25:48certain. He's giving details on these
25:50others. So, these law enforcement, you
25:52know, they're just trying to close these
25:54cases. They're trying to get resolution
25:56for the families. And obviously, they're
25:58in their minds, they're thinking, well,
26:00he killed Kate. He killed Becky, a woman
26:02he loves, and he killed his mother. So,
26:05who would this man not kill? Like, what
26:08would this man not do? Most of the
26:11states that talk to him, they're pretty
26:13much figuring out right away, okay,
26:15yeah, you didn't do this. A lot of those
26:17cases, obviously, they're not they're
26:19not moving forward. Indicted for Kate.
26:22He is indicted for Becky. These cases
26:25are going to move forward. And I will
26:27and I will say this. So, Henry was not
26:30necessarily wanting to have a defense.
26:33He really didn't have a defense. He was
26:35confessing. He wasn't trying to do
26:38anything different. He wasn't trying to
26:40quote unquote save himself. He was just
26:43trying to, in his words, help families,
26:47help this situation. Again, he does have
26:50have defense people assigned to him. The
26:53judge wants him to try to have a
26:55defense. And so at first it looked like
26:58he was going to plead innocent on Kate's
27:02on the Kate on Kate's charges. Reasoning
27:05for innocence was mental reasons were
27:09mentioned. That was pretty much the only
27:11defense quote unquote. And the same with
27:14Becky. So Becky was set up, Kate's trial
27:17was set up. At this time they're looking
27:18at those two cases and focusing on those
27:21two cases to get resolution. As you move
27:24forward, by September, Kate's trial was
27:27set for October. By September 30th,
27:31Henry comes back and pleads guilty. He
27:33He does not want to move forward with
27:35trial. He does not want to do that. He
27:37receives a 75ear sentence for Kate's
27:42murder. So, he pleads guilty, received
27:4575 year sentence. Now, I will say this,
27:49and I don't understand all this. I'm
27:50sure the laws and the laws change a lot,
27:53but at that time even like a 60 I guess
27:56anything 60-year plus sentence was
27:59basically like a life sentence quote
28:01unquote. The people the convict was up
28:04for parole within 20 years. Okay. So, no
28:08matter what, the way the law was said
28:11that this person would be up for parole
28:13by the year by year 20 of a life
28:16sentence. They gave 75 years to life for
28:19what pretty much 60 years plus meant
28:21life. But they're trying to appease the
28:24people. You know, these are heinous
28:25crimes. Keep Henry Lee Lucas from
28:28getting out of prison in the future. So,
28:30they've got these two things going on.
28:31He gets the 75 years. He wants to plead
28:34guilty to Becky's murder. They will not
28:37let her murder actually goes to trial.
28:40Again, there's not like a defense. Henry
28:42is not saying anything except he says he
28:45stabbed her to death and on the morning
28:47of August 24th of 1982, he then cut her
28:50up in little pieces and stuffed those
28:52pieces into pillowcases and then dumped
28:55the pieces in the field. And they did
28:57find these pieces in the fields. He's
28:59pretty much not putting up much of a
29:01defense at all regarding regarding
29:02Becky's death. And on November 10th, her
29:06case goes to trial. They do come back
29:08with guilty and then they come back
29:10after a very short deliberation and they
29:13give him a life sentence. Right off the
29:15bat, we have 75 years plus the life
29:18sentence. And pretty much these are not
29:20back toback. They're running
29:21consecutively. They're running together.
29:23At this point, no law-wise, Henry Leucas
29:26can be up for parole within 20 years of
29:30this time frame. Since these trials are
29:33concluded and other indictment, and
29:35there are several indictments piling up
29:37on by November, since Sheriff Conway is
29:41done with his case, Henry is not put in
29:44prison yet. He is actually Sheriff
29:47Batwell wants to focus on the Orange
29:51Socks case, which a little side note,
29:54Orange Socks literally the whole time of
29:57this case is an unidentified person.
30:00Now, we know it's female. They know, you
30:02know, she's young. In 2019, many many
30:06years later, they actually get DNA and
30:09familial DNA and they figure out this
30:13woman's name is Deborah Louise Jackson.
30:16They they don't even have a name for
30:18Sheriff that well has indicted Henry
30:20already for her murder and now he's
30:23wanting to talk to Henry about many
30:25other cases. And again, Sheriff Batwell
30:27is very, very respected. So he is able
30:30to bring Henry to his jail in November
30:33of 83 and just house Henry at his county
30:37jail while they work out all of these
30:39details and while they're working on the
30:42Orange Socks case. Okay. Sheriff Batwell
30:44actually sets up a task force and they
30:47do call it the Henry Lee Lucas task
30:49force. Sheriff Batwell forms a
30:52relationship with Henry. They have a
30:55working relationship. They get along
30:56very well. is giving Henry cigarettes.
30:59We've discussed Henry's smoking habit.
31:02He smokes three packs a day. They're the
31:04Palm brand. Sheriff is giving Henry his
31:07favorite foods. He's making sure Henry's
31:10comfortable. Sheriff Batwell sincerely
31:13wants Henry to talk about all these
31:15cases. He wants to help the families.
31:18So, they're collaborating. November on,
31:20this is 1983. He is spending time with
31:22him. There are numerous people working
31:25in this task force. There are numerous
31:28people coming from again all over the
31:30country to talk to Henry the different
31:32cases. A lot is going on during this
31:35time. The numbers went from like a
31:37hundred in June. Now it's it's getting
31:39up to 360. Now another thing that's
31:42going on Henry is discussing Otis Tool.
31:45Oudis at this time he is in jail in
31:48Florida for and what turns into a murder
31:51case but originally was arson. So he is
31:53in jail in Florida. And at first he
31:56hears I mean this is national news. This
31:58is all over the place. These confessions
32:00I mean this is absolutely huge. And
32:02Henry Lee Lucas is everywhere. Very
32:04famous. Originally Otis hears this and
32:06is like trying to lay low. Not wanting
32:08his name brought about. Henry is
32:10mentioning Otis. He's mentioning working
32:12with Otis, doing crimes with Otis. Oudis
32:15is in jail. Now Otis begins to start his
32:18confession cycle as well after Henry
32:21does. So, he ends up confessing up to 50
32:24murders. And just a little side note,
32:26we're not going to go down the Otis Tool
32:28road completely because that would be
32:30just a whole another thing. He is pretty
32:32much in jail this entire time. He never
32:35gets out of jail. Confesses to about 50
32:37murders. And he does actually confess to
32:40the Adam Walsh case. Yes, the the famous
32:43one. And I have been requested to cover
32:45that case. We will get into that in 26.
32:48OIS confesses. Of course, it's not
32:51necessarily taken as true because of all
32:54of this fanfare going on, all of these
32:56confessions. It's it's not like, okay,
32:59you did it. No, nothing like that. So, I
33:01mean, nobody knows what to believe
33:03between Henry and Otis. So, nobody
33:05knows. Little side note, just to Ois, he
33:07dies in 1996.
33:10And again, he's never let out of jail.
33:12And him and Henry do meet up. They kind
33:14of get them together. Otis will actually
33:16come in play for some of Henry's trials
33:19or depositions, vice versa. Both of them
33:22are pretty much just deemed as a heinous
33:24liars. And I will say August is an
33:26interesting awful person. You know, they
33:29talk about him being like 6'2, 63, like
33:32big man, but having this little dainty
33:34voice until he gets mad and then it like
33:37he's very, very scary. Has a very scary
33:40disposition. And so that's very it's
33:42just very scary to think about at on
33:44Adam Walsh's case by 2008. So we're
33:47talking Otis dies in 96 in 2008 the
33:50Hollywood Florida Police Department
33:52along with the Walshes have a joint
33:55press conference and they discussed that
33:57they are satisfied that Audis was the
34:00murderer and the case is closed. Wow. We
34:02are in November. We're beginning in
34:05November at this jail. We will mention
34:08briefly Henry mentioned what was known
34:10as Sister Clem Clementine. She was a
34:14very devout Catholic woman. Worked in
34:17Sheriff Batwell's jail. Like she just
34:19provided Bibles, provided spiritual
34:22guidance, just a just a very nice
34:26Christian woman just trying to be the
34:28hands and feet of God there. Okay. And
34:31she does meet Henry Lee Lucas. At first
34:34they don't want them to meet. Sister
34:36Climia is very valued there. Don't you
34:39know people are worried about her even
34:40the prisoners like the prisoners value
34:42her. She does meet Henry just like with
34:45Sheriff Batwell. She forms a
34:47relationship with him that will go on to
34:49the end of his life and she is
34:50instrumental in his hand of death book
34:53being written. She just wants him to
34:54tell the truth. She urges him to tell
34:56the truth about things about his crimes
34:59and such. And so she comes from a very
35:02pure situation and dealing with a very
35:04impure of course person and a very
35:07unstable person. But she is actually one
35:09of the only ones that sticks with Henry
35:13throughout the rest of his life because
35:15obviously this and this is just this
35:17confession period is just very short.
35:20Hear about it you think okay well it's
35:21just an ongoing thing. His lying is an
35:23ongoing thing but his confession period
35:26is very short. Starts from the time he's
35:28arrested. It it ends pretty pretty
35:30shortly there. Now, Sheriff Batwell, he
35:32is working with Henry. There there are
35:34tons of people that are coming to talk
35:36to Henry and during this time and I do
35:39feel like definitely mention Hugh
35:41Ainsworth. He is a writer. He is he has
35:44done it all. He's been in crime writing.
35:46He is a journalist. He has actually
35:49actually had conversations and
35:51interviews with Ted Bundy. And so he and
35:54he he lived in Texas. So he was he was
35:57living in Texas. Hugh wanted to meet and
36:00document and interview Henry. And
36:02Sheriff Batwell does allow Hugh to come
36:04in. He comes in with a Japanese film
36:06crew. They talk to Henry and Hugh
36:09realizes very quickly this is all kind
36:12of show allegedly to Hugh. Henry is
36:15saying one thing to the sheriff and then
36:17one thing to He's basically saying, "I
36:19didn't really do that. I'm just I'm just
36:22trying to help the sheriff. I'm just
36:23trying to clear these cases for the
36:25sheriff." He's just trying to make them
36:27happy. Henry is coming off very congest.
36:30He's always polite. He's always nice.
36:33Sheriff Boutwell loves him. Sister Clem
36:36loves him. All the people that met
36:37August, his family loved him and trusted
36:40him. He went through bouts of being
36:42trusted and loved. You know, he was
36:44trusted by Reuben. And then things
36:46happen to break that trust. Eventually
36:48the trust is broken. But this man is
36:50very congenial. He's very kind. He's
36:53easy quote ongoing. So these people are
36:56just getting wrapped up in this kindness
36:58whether it's a you have that I will say
37:01a side note on Hugh Hugh will go on in
37:041985
37:06to release a huge article about Henry
37:09pretty much makes it clear that he's a
37:12liar. This article will be very damaging
37:15to police. It'll be very damaging to
37:18Sheriff Boutwell. the task force.
37:21Really, by this time, there's already a
37:23lot of cracks in the armor. Okay, this
37:25this confession period was seriously
37:28very short. He does come out. He is I
37:30thought it was interesting. Hugh never
37:33appears to win a Nobel Prize for his
37:35pieces of journalism, but he was
37:37nominated. He was nominated from the
37:39piece about Henry. And he was even a
37:43finalist numerous times for the Nobel
37:44Prize, but he never won the Nobel Prize
37:46from what I could see. That's a little
37:48side note, but he he was involved with
37:50him. But Sheriff Batwell is very much
37:53honing in on his case, the Orange Socks
37:56case. And I will say, additionally, on
37:58top of, you know, it's kind of hard to
38:00keep up with because tons of charges are
38:03being filed, indictments are being filed
38:05that that pretty much don't go anywhere.
38:07By 1984, there are 17 indictments filed
38:11on Henry. But just to give you kind of
38:13an idea, there are only four that
38:16actually turn into convictions. Okay? So
38:18out of that 17, four are convictions in
38:21that time frame. So Sheriff Bwell is in
38:24Georgetown, Texas, kind of the county
38:27seat of Williamson. Henry Lee Lucas's
38:30defense attorneys are really trying to
38:33work for him because literally by 1984,
38:36by the beginning of 1984, Henry is
38:39telling his attorneys and telling
38:41people, "Yeah, I didn't really do this
38:43murder, this orange docks." Like
38:44everything's he is already recanting
38:47these confessions. It's sinking in that
38:49this is moving forward because Sheriff
38:52Bwell is going after firstdegree murder
38:55charge. it is in a state that has the
38:58death penalty and that is on this like
39:01they're not letting him plead out
39:03they're not letting anything he will be
39:04up for the death penalty on this orange
39:07socks case his defense attorneys they
39:09are work like I said Hugh Ainsworth is
39:12working he's actually investigating too
39:14like he's wanting to know where was
39:16Henry during this time frame and there
39:18is evidence being produced through
39:21payubs
39:22witnesses jobs like Henry was working in
39:26Florida during the time socks body was
39:29dumped. Like he was living in Florida,
39:31he was working in Florida. There were
39:33people to say this. There were payubs
39:36documentation. There was documentation
39:38coming forward about where Henry was.
39:41And that was the thing. He's confessing.
39:43He's giving these details on one hand
39:45and then there's evidence on the other
39:47hand to say, "Okay, he didn't really do
39:49this." And he's recanting. He's full
39:52circle recanting. Henry, his defense is
39:55moving towards this ri this trial on
39:58orange socks. They set the trial for
40:00April. By Friday, April 14th of 1984,
40:05a jury who they look at the evidence of
40:10the defense produces evidence that Henry
40:13was not in Texas, not near Texas. But
40:16the jury looks and they they look at all
40:19the detailed videos of Henry confessing
40:22and not just to this case but to others.
40:24They get to see and what Henry was
40:26saying in his confession is that he
40:28picked up hitchhiker which was this
40:31orange socks. He had sex with her. He
40:34drove to Texas. They had a fight and he
40:37killed her and then had sex with her
40:40once she was dumped. He dumped her body
40:42in the culvert and that's where she was
40:44found. these heinous actions are what he
40:48he confessed to and he gives you great
40:51detail about this. And so this is what
40:53this jury is hearing a whole plethora of
40:56videos and again we talked about this
40:59when Henry was confessing he was saying
41:01horrible things. He was talking about
41:03horrible things that he did to these
41:05women postmortem you cutting women up
41:09having sex with their bodies like all of
41:11these horrendous things. And this jury,
41:13they listen to this. They come back,
41:16they refute the evidence that he was in
41:19Florida and basically they look at the
41:22confession. So they come up with a
41:24guilty verdict on the Orange Socks trial
41:27and then they come back with only after
41:30about 40 minutes of deliberation, they
41:32give Henry Leucas the death sentence.
41:34And one of the reasons was the
41:36prosecution, the defense of course is
41:38saying, "Well, Henry wasn't there. He
41:40didn't do Well, the prosecution is
41:41saying, "Do you really want the
41:44possibility of this man ever getting out
41:47of prison?" And of course, these people
41:50and and they did, I will say, they did
41:52move his trial to a different county,
41:54but still, this this has been nationwide
41:57news, and this jury got to see his
42:00confessional tapes. So, they give Henry
42:04Lucas the death sentence, which at this
42:06time is lethal injection. Henry comes
42:09out after hearing this verdict and
42:11getting the death sentence. He's like,
42:12"I didn't do it, but I'm very happy
42:14anyway." So, because this whole time he
42:17is talking about how he really wants
42:19quote unquote a legal suicide. He wants
42:21the state to kill him. He is lamenting
42:25um only on Becky's death. He's not
42:27really giving much remorse to Kate's
42:30death or anything. He is saying that he
42:33deserves to to die for his crimes though
42:35at this point. Yeah. So he says he's
42:37happy with it. He says that this is this
42:40is what he wants. It turned out the way
42:42he wants. But even in his statements
42:45afterwards, he's saying, "I didn't do
42:46it." So he is he is recanting right
42:49away. And this is April of 1984. By May
42:53of 1984, Henry has 17 17 charges filed
42:58against him. One is in Louisiana. There
43:01are there about three cases in Florida.
43:06There is one in Maryland and the rest
43:08are Texas. So yes, so all over the
43:11country people people have come forward
43:14and some of these cases are even
43:16unidentified persons at this point.
43:19Henry so he is indicted. He is in prison
43:22by this time and this is the whole Hugh
43:26Ainsworth article has not come out. It
43:28won't come out for like another year but
43:30at this point already he's saying he
43:33didn't do it. So does go back to
43:35Williamson County Jail for a beat. But
43:38by this time, Sheriff Batwell, there's
43:40already been a lot of back and forth
43:42going on with Henry's re recantations
43:46and him saying he just wanted to make
43:48the sheriff happy. So this is why he was
43:50make all the confessions and agreeing to
43:53being guilty for the cases that were
43:55brought forward to him by law
43:57enforcement. So this is April of 1984.
44:01So, in the meantime, like I said, he has
44:04these indictments. There's other charges
44:06coming forward. There's other counties
44:07involved. So, he is simultaneously being
44:11carted around to different counties. So,
44:13Henry faced charges on a Linda Jane
44:16Phillips files. Linda's body is was
44:19discovered in August of 1970. She had
44:23been stabbed 26 times. She was an
44:26elementary school teacher. She was only
44:2826 years old. He confessed to her
44:31murder. Her murder was brought to him.
44:33He confessed. He goes on trial and
44:36basically he states in his confessions
44:38that he just wanted sex like she had had
44:41a car broken down on the side of the
44:43road and he had come upon her, sexually
44:45assaulted her and killed her. He pleads
44:48guilty to he's already got a several
44:50sentences but now this death sentence.
44:53So he pleads guilty to her case
44:55Thursday, May 24th of 1984. and he's
44:59given another life sentence. So after
45:02Linda Phillips case, this was May and
45:06now we're going to fast forward over to
45:08September, a Diana Lynn Bryant case. She
45:14was only 17 years old. She is found
45:17murdered April 26th of 1981. Diana was
45:22babysitting. She had a couple children
45:24that she was babysitting. Henry states
45:26that he broke into the apartment and
45:29this was in Brownville, Texas. He
45:32strangles her utilizing a vacuum cord.
45:36The police literally find her body. Like
45:38the mom comes home, finds the children
45:41were asleep in the adjacent room. And
45:44Diana's, you know, after Henry confesses
45:47in 83 to this death, Diana's father is
45:52satisfied with this confession. And so
45:54the police move forward and in September
45:57of 1984, Henry pleads guilty and
46:01receives a 75-year prison sentence for
46:04her death.
46:06Now, simultaneously,
46:08so I'll just say Henry is busy. He is
46:12all over the country due to his
46:15confessions and and such. I mean, he is
46:18traveling all over the country to
46:20different states, to different court
46:22proceedings. So likewise in September of
46:261984.
46:29So in 1984,
46:32Henry Lee Lucas
46:34is brought to Arkansas because he
46:38confessed to killing a Betty Thornon. A
46:42Scotty Scott had been tried for Betty's
46:45murder. Okay. In fact, he was tried
46:48twice. The first time was a hung jury.
46:51the second time he was convicted. And so
46:53by then by this time in September of 84,
46:57you have Henry that came forward. He
47:00said that he shot Betty and this was at
47:03a service like a magic mart in Little
47:06Rock that this happened. There were
47:08inconsistencies.
47:10However, this, you know, was enough
47:12information for the judge to overthrow
47:16the conviction. And so a third trial is
47:19dinged. you know, Scotty will get a new
47:21trial because of this evidence. Now,
47:24this is just to give you an idea. This
47:26is September 84. Henry comes in, he
47:29confesses, they take him out. So, Henry
47:31comes in and goes away to let you guys
47:34know on the side that this situation
47:37evidently Scotty had always said that he
47:40was innocent. He had always proclaimed
47:41his innocence. Well, he's given a new
47:43trial in ' 84. He actually just because
47:46of his own um illnesses and different
47:49stays like he doesn't go to trial uh for
47:52the third time until 1989 and by this
47:55time he is very sick. He has a bone
47:58marrow disease situation and he's very
48:01sick and he's very young. Um he is
48:04acquitted so he is deemed innocent in
48:07the third trial. Yes. really as far as I
48:11can see Betty's Betty's case is just
48:14still unsolved because Henry Lee didn't
48:18stand trial for it. They didn't
48:19prosecute him or anything. And then uh
48:21year, you know, this is years later now
48:23and by this time definitely people do
48:26not believe anything Henry Lee Lucas has
48:29said, especially about ' 89. There is an
48:31article that I found that it it
48:33discusses that Scotty states he knows
48:36who who did it, but he he was rightly
48:40acquitted. So anyway, he ends up passing
48:44away by 91. He has passed away. So he he
48:47spent all that time fighting for his
48:49freedom and then he was this horrible uh
48:53bone disease and then the horribleness
48:55of really nobody standing trial or you
48:59know no justice for the Thornon family.
49:01That is a little side note in what Henry
49:06Leucas is up to. So it's like he's all
49:09over the place. He's all over the
49:10country going everywhere. his
49:13confession, even on this case and other
49:15cases, just do not add up. It's like
49:18there's like a little twinge of
49:20something and that's it. And then the
49:22rest of it is just chaos and then he's
49:24he's causing chaos. And in this case, it
49:27worked for Scotty Scott, but
49:29unfortunately there was no again no
49:32justice for Betty Thornton. Terrible on
49:35all accounts. Now, so that's September.
49:39That's what he's up to in September. So
49:42yes, so in October of 1984,
49:46Henry does plead guilty on a murder
49:49case. So there is a young woman who is
49:53found in Montgomery County, Texas. She
49:57has been sexually assaulted. She is
49:59strangled.
50:01Uh they find her body. They don't know
50:03who it is. And then Henry comes along
50:06and he says that he did it. Okay. So he
50:09pleads guilty again. October 84, he gets
50:13another life sentence, which is nothing
50:15to him. He has several by this time.
50:17This is 84. Now, in 1986, the FBI
50:22actually are able to match her
50:25fingerprints and find out who she is.
50:27So, her name is Laura Marie Purchase and
50:30she's actually actually from Michigan.
50:32Okay, so she she was from Michigan and
50:35she was just a very young girl. Now,
50:38fast forward a long time. So Henry is
50:40convicted. He is sentenced. In 2008,
50:46DNA actually rules out Henry as the
50:50killer. So after Henry is ruled out, the
50:52case is reopened. And they do have
50:54enough DNA to figure out and find a
50:58culprit, which is a Thomas Darnell. And
51:01by this time, this is 2021, and Thomas
51:04is arrested and charged with Laura's
51:08murder. Okay. So, yes. So, this Yeah,
51:11this is so crazy, guys. Just Yeah, this
51:14whole thing like it's just a very sad
51:18deal all the way around. What Henry did
51:21was just it's like the actual heinous
51:26activities that he did were bad enough.
51:27And then proclaiming, you know, taking
51:30that he took part in these crimes that
51:33he didn't was just I mean, it's just
51:35absolutely horrendous. on top of being
51:37horrendous, you know, this this didn't
51:40help anybody by any means. So, so at the
51:43same time in October of ' 84 that Henry
51:47was pleading guilty on Laura's case,
51:49which he didn't even know it was Laura's
51:51case at that time, he is also pleading
51:54guilty on a different case. Now, this is
51:56a Laura Donz. She is 16 years old. She
52:01disappeared April 16th of 83. She
52:05evidently skipped school. Now she is
52:07found in Montgomery County. She had been
52:11strangled. She had been raped, beaten.
52:14Her body was burned and and they found
52:17her body kind of off this logging road.
52:19Now Henry confesses and allegedly leads
52:23the police to where her body had been
52:25found. And this he pleads guilty October
52:2919th of 84 and gets another life
52:32sentence in January. So fast forward,
52:35this was October and January of 85.
52:40Henry is in West Virginia. Evidently,
52:43whenever Sheriff Batwell or whenever the
52:46Texas Rangers were talking to Henry,
52:49they had asked him if he had ever killed
52:52any law enforcement. and he had said yes
52:55that he had actually killed a law
52:57enforcement maybe in like Kansas it was
53:00and then in West Virginia area or
53:02Maryland. So he he said he really didn't
53:05know. They're trying to track now this I
53:07mean he says this in 83. So then they're
53:10trying to track down this person. Well
53:13there is a patrolman. So, there was a
53:16patrolman, Clinty Curtis, who was out on
53:19patrol and in August of 76, he is found
53:25in Huntington, West Virginia. Like, he
53:26is found outside his patrol car. He has
53:30been handcuffed with his own handcuffs.
53:32He's been shot with his own gun. And
53:35they're investigating. They can't figure
53:36out what happened to him. And ultimately
53:39in 76,
53:41they rule his death as a suicide. like
53:43they couldn't see that it was someone
53:46else, quote unquote. Fast forward to
53:481983.
53:50He they're trying Henry has confessed to
53:54killing law enforcement. They finally
53:56track down this Curtis situation and so
54:01they have Henry come out to West
54:03Virginia. Evidently, Henry is able to
54:06point out kind of relatively the area.
54:09like some parts of his confession just
54:11didn't add up, they said, but then some
54:13parts were very pointed. And then
54:15evidently this family had been fighting
54:18the ruling. Like Clim's family weren't
54:21getting any of his benefits or anything
54:23like that. So they were fighting it.
54:26They didn't believe that he had
54:27committed suicide. By January of 85,
54:31this is all tied up because Henry pleads
54:35guilty and states that Odis and him
54:38killed this patrolman. Yes. So he gets a
54:42life sentence in West Virginia for this
54:45incident. Okay. So this is done in
54:47January of 85. Now also again very busy
54:52man here. Also at the same time in
54:54January of 85 there is another
54:57conviction. So Henry he pleads guilty on
55:02the death of a Lily Dartry. So she was
55:0518. She was found in 77. It was November
55:11of 77 that she is found. Henry says that
55:14he picked her up that he assaulted her.
55:17He shot her in her in the head. He
55:20dumped her in Marshall, Texas. He leads
55:23investigators to the site. He does say
55:26that Otis was with him but not involved
55:29in this death. He says that he had met
55:31her at a service station somewhere
55:33around where Highway 59 and Interstate
55:3620 meet and then he had dumped her in
55:39Marshall, Texas. And he pleads guilty
55:41and gets another sentence. This was
55:44January. So lastly, fast forward to
55:48February. February of 1985, Henry pleads
55:52guilty to the death of a Glenna Bakers.
55:56Glenna was 65 years old. She was found
56:00um with a butcher knife in her stomach
56:02and a fork in her throat on December
56:0520th of 1982 over in Hail County, Texas.
56:09Now, her death of course went
56:11unresolved. They couldn't figure out who
56:13had done it. And so they had brought the
56:15case to Henry. And he said that yes, he
56:18had done it. He was able to describe the
56:21scene. He said that him and Ois had
56:24broken in to rob Glenna. And that's when
56:27everything went crazy. He ended up
56:29taking about $180. But he was able to
56:33describe the scene enough for the
56:35prosecutors to feel like it was him. And
56:38then he also stated that he didn't wear
56:40gloves. So he pleads guilty, gets
56:43another life sentence on Glenna. This
56:45February of 1985
56:47is the not to say the last indictment or
56:51charges, but this is the last conviction
56:54that Henry will say. There will be, you
56:57know, PE law enforcement will try to pin
56:59him for different things, but this is
57:01the last conviction. So, and these are
57:04almost all of them in in Texas.
57:07Obviously, there's Clemy's uh death in
57:10West Virginia. By April of 1985, Hugh
57:14Ainssworth's article exposes the exposes
57:18Henry Lee Lucas as a hoaxer and as a
57:21liar. He discusses his evidence that
57:24found that Henry there was no physical
57:27way that Henry could have been at some
57:30of the cases that they had him for.
57:32there was just no no physical way that
57:34he could have done what he could what he
57:37stated that he did. They provided the
57:39evidence. So this comes out in April
57:421985 as well. Henry Lee Lucas's book
57:45Hand of Death comes out. And so pretty
57:48much with the article of Hugh Ainsworth
57:51plus the book Henry Lee Lucas just
57:53becomes fodder. He he's made fun of.
57:56People just discuss him as a liar.
57:58pretty much jokes are made about
58:00everything like he's just not believed
58:03in any way, shape, form. And at this
58:05point, his working with Sheriff Batwell
58:09is done. The whole state of Texas as far
58:12as like the Texas Rangers that had
58:14worked with Henry Lee Lucas, like
58:16everybody is scrambling to protect their
58:19position. There's tons of articles that
58:21come forward talking about Henry Lee
58:24Lucas being a hoaxer. And then also on
58:27the flip side, you all of the
58:29quoteunquote accurate statements and
58:31details that he gave to the police. So
58:33there's kind of like two different
58:34parts. There's just two different
58:36perspectives there. And one was the
58:38investigators just trying to get down to
58:40the truth. And then there was the
58:41perspective of there was plenty of
58:43evidence to support that Henry Lee Lucas
58:46just couldn't have been responsible for
58:48some of these cases. And again, there
58:50were several law enforcement offices
58:52that were talking to Henry Lee Lucas
58:55across many states and there were many
58:58that came forward and they were like,
58:59"Yeah, this doesn't match up. We're
59:01moving on." I mean, at that time, you
59:04you may not have had the DNA technology
59:06that we have today. And of course, now
59:08we have just the digital footprints of
59:10everyone. You know, they did have
59:12fingerprints. They had different ways of
59:14solving the crimes other than
59:16confessions. just a confession in the
59:1880s was were other means of evidence to
59:23convict. But in these cases, his
59:25confessions were at times pointed for
59:29juries, especially in the Orange Socks
59:31case, which I'll call the Georgetown
59:33case. So, it's 1985. The article has
59:36come out. Henry's book has come out.
59:38Pretty much again, people just making
59:40fun of the hand of death situation, the
59:43whole gamut. They're not buying it at
59:45this in 1986.
59:47There is a whole investigation into the
59:50Henry Lee Lucas. It's called the Lucas
59:53report and it is investigated by the
59:55attorney general at the time which is a
59:58Jim Maddox. He does conducts an
1:00:00investigation finding that the
1:00:02investigators were just eager for
1:00:05confessions. they would slip information
1:00:08maybe not even knowing it to Henry and
1:00:11that a lot of the details and such were
1:00:13in the case files that he was seeing and
1:00:15the impact of this Lucas report you know
1:00:18kind of damages reputations you know the
1:00:21Texas Ranger division also of course the
1:00:24sheriff out well so but it also
1:00:26evaluates and is able to re-evaluate the
1:00:30police investigation techniques increase
1:00:33awareness of false confessions across
1:00:35the board. So good definitely comes from
1:00:38this Lucas report and trying to figure
1:00:41out okay what prompted this situation.
1:00:44It is looked into and from there on out
1:00:47it is professions are kind of treated
1:00:49with treated the way they should be
1:00:51treated and should be part of maybe an
1:00:54investigative sequence and not
1:00:56necessarily the got to look for the
1:00:58evidence behind it. Now, Henry Henry
1:01:00Lucas, he after this, he had he had
1:01:02pretty much been floating around the
1:01:04country, going here, going there, being
1:01:07flown different places. Of course, tons
1:01:10of investigators wanting to talk to him.
1:01:12After all of this, he he is put in
1:01:15prison. He goes to prison. He is no
1:01:17longer situated at the county jails
1:01:20unless he's needed in some sort of trial
1:01:22situation. This whole period, of course,
1:01:25he has a death sentence that he's
1:01:27staring at. from 85 to 89. His attorneys
1:01:30are working on his appeals process on
1:01:33the Georgetown aka the Orange Socks
1:01:36case. So they're working that they're
1:01:38trying to get that repealed. They're
1:01:41trying to show the evidence. They're
1:01:42nobody believes Henry Lucas. So in 1989,
1:01:46the court of appeals, they uphold the
1:01:49original conviction and sentence of
1:01:51Henry Lee Lucas. So 1989, he is still
1:01:55very much sentenced to to death by
1:01:58lethal injection. Of course, his
1:02:00attorneys are fighting it. His death
1:02:03date is pushed out to June 30th of 1998.
1:02:08And again, this whole kind of pretty
1:02:10much after ' 89, after the appeals
1:02:13process runs out, then they're just
1:02:15trying his attorneys are trying to get a
1:02:18commutation of his death sentence.
1:02:21They're trying to get that turned into a
1:02:23different charge. So, they're talking to
1:02:25the Pearl Board. They're talking, of
1:02:26course, they have to put together all
1:02:29kinds of evidence to uh at the time it's
1:02:32Governor George Bush, George W. Bush. In
1:02:3586, you had attorney general Jim Maddox,
1:02:38but then you also had the current
1:02:39attorney general, and they were both
1:02:41putting together a legal concern that
1:02:43went to that went to the governor to to
1:02:47ask for maybe not clemency, but again,
1:02:49the commutation. So that is all
1:02:51submitted by June 15th. There is a whole
1:02:54report that is put to Governor Bush and
1:02:57in fact it is put together from the
1:02:59attorney general at the time talking
1:03:01about the probability is highly
1:03:05improbable that Henry Lee Lucas actually
1:03:08committed that crime. This in this
1:03:10situation he if he is truly innocent of
1:03:14this are they going to put him to death?
1:03:15So this is a big hot button situation.
1:03:18And you have a lot of families out there
1:03:19that are still feeling like Henry Lucas
1:03:23killed their loved ones. They're upset.
1:03:25You have of course people on the other
1:03:27side that are upset period against the
1:03:29death penalty period that are fighting
1:03:32for this commutation. So yes, so this
1:03:34goes down like it always does it seems
1:03:36like to the wire. On June 26th, 1998, 4
1:03:41days before Henry Lee Lucas is facing
1:03:44his execution, Governor, then Governor
1:03:47George W. Bush does give commutation of
1:03:50the death sentence to a life
1:03:52imprisonment. He knowing the situation
1:03:55with the 20-year probation situation
1:03:57with the sentences that he already has,
1:04:00he states that this is a life
1:04:02imprisonment and it starts at that
1:04:04point. So it's not it's not going to go
1:04:07back to the beginning point. Does that
1:04:11make sense? So basically it would start
1:04:13at that point and then also he is still
1:04:15so Henry Lee Lucas was still facing a
1:04:18life imprisonment out of West Virginia
1:04:21that had no possibility of parole for
1:04:24killing Climmy Curtis. Governor Bush had
1:04:27never given any type of clemency on
1:04:29anything. But he did state this. I take
1:04:32every death penalty case seriously and
1:04:35review each case carefully. The first
1:04:37question I ask in every case is whether
1:04:39there is any doubt about the
1:04:41individual's guilt or innocence. This is
1:04:43the first case since I have been the
1:04:45governor when the answer to that
1:04:46question was yes. The jury in this case
1:04:49had the opportunity to review much of
1:04:51the evidence which has been used to cast
1:04:54doubt on whether Henry Lee Lucas
1:04:56committed the crime for which he was
1:04:57sentenced to die. I am reluctant to
1:05:00second guess a verdict of a jury in the
1:05:02courts. However, the clemency process is
1:05:05intended as a failsafe for unusual or
1:05:08exceptional circumstances. In this case,
1:05:11at the time it made the decision, the
1:05:12jury did not know and could not have
1:05:15known that Henry Leucas had a pattern of
1:05:17lying and confessing to crimes that
1:05:20evidence later proved he did not commit.
1:05:22His confession now recounted recanted
1:05:26was the only evidence which linked him
1:05:28to this crime. Today's knowledge about
1:05:30his pattern of lies raises doubt. He
1:05:34does go on to state Henry Lucas is
1:05:36unquestionably guilty of other
1:05:38despicable acts. Like there's no
1:05:40question about that. But in this case he
1:05:42he sees the fact that he is more than
1:05:45likely innocent. So and he does state
1:05:48that he will spend the rest of his life
1:05:49in prison. this 1998 really after this
1:05:54time. So Henry Lee Lucas is no longer
1:05:56facing the death penalty. However,
1:05:59shortly thereafter on March 12th, 2001
1:06:03around 11 p.m. Lucas was had been
1:06:06complaining of chest pains and he was
1:06:08found dead in his cell and he died from
1:06:12congestive heart failure and he was 64
1:06:14years old. He is buried and Sister
1:06:18Clemmy is one of the again very few
1:06:21people that are at his funeral. And she
1:06:24does state she hopes that laws will be
1:06:28passed that just because somebody signs
1:06:30confessions under duress that there will
1:06:32that there will have to be more proof
1:06:34that they really committed the murder.
1:06:36And she also goes on to say, I also hope
1:06:39that the death penalty will be lifted.
1:06:41There are some innocent victims on death
1:06:43row. So, he is buried on a Thursday,
1:06:47March 15th. I will say this, this case
1:06:51is very interesting. It did give me
1:06:54certain vibes of other cases, other
1:06:57quote unquote serial killers at times.
1:07:00It's pretty obvious that he definitely
1:07:02committed some very heinous crimes. And
1:07:06there were other crimes that, you know,
1:07:08he was suspected in that he never faced
1:07:10charges on. Of course, there were many
1:07:12indictments that were never turned into
1:07:14convictions. There were just so many
1:07:16going on. Just so many. And just the
1:07:18simple fact his his terrible behavior
1:07:22was bad enough. Of course, the the
1:07:23things that he did do, but then the the
1:07:26confessing to all these many other
1:07:28things that he obviously didn't didn't
1:07:30end up doing that would come to light
1:07:32later on that we discussed made for just
1:07:34as much hurt for people. So, it is very
1:07:38interesting. a lot obviously learned
1:07:41from his case as far as how law
1:07:44enforcement looks at confessions and
1:07:46such. So, so keep with me. In this next
1:07:50bit, there will be an interview with
1:07:53J.R. Howard. I'll let him discuss his
1:07:56extensive background into investigations
1:07:59and in his law enforcement, but he
1:08:01actually met Henry Leucas. And so, I
1:08:04will have an interview, this next bit
1:08:05will be an interview with J.R. Howard.
1:08:08So, keep listening.
1:08:09>> So, this is Lisa and Mr. J.R. Howard.
1:08:12And thank you so much for allowing me to
1:08:15interview today. Uh, J.R., and J.R. is
1:08:17going to tell us about he has a very
1:08:20extensive career in law enforcement.
1:08:24>> Okay. Uh, I graduated the UVA in Fabul
1:08:27in in ' 69. I taught school 6970 school
1:08:31term and I got acquainted with an
1:08:34Arkansas state trooper while I was
1:08:35teaching school. and and uh of course
1:08:38that solidified things for me and that I
1:08:40went to work with state police in in
1:08:421971 and assigned Iowa patrol division
1:08:46in Fort Smith and I was there till uh
1:08:49April of 76 and I transferred into the
1:08:52criminal investigation division and I
1:08:55was in the investigation C until I guess
1:08:59it was late 98 and so from 76 to 98 uh I
1:09:04I was just an investigator with police
1:09:06investigating whatever you know
1:09:09throughout the state.
1:09:10>> Oh wow.
1:09:10>> And then at that point I started working
1:09:13out of Little Rock and retired in end of
1:09:17' 04.
1:09:18>> Okay.
1:09:19>> And then in the end toward the tail end
1:09:23of that career I went over and ran the
1:09:25Kbay Crime Lab from 04 to07. And then I
1:09:29was appointed US marshal for the Eastern
1:09:31District of Arkansas. And I was there
1:09:34from ' 07 to 10. And then I was off a
1:09:38year. I came back to the state police in
1:09:402011 and 2012. And then I was I retired
1:09:45and and then well I guess year I can't
1:09:48remember what year or so ago. Anyhow,
1:09:50they had a the a vacancy of crown land
1:09:52and I went back to the state crime land
1:09:55for about three months as an interim
1:09:58director.
1:09:58>> Oh, wow.
1:09:59>> And
1:10:00>> that's that's pretty well it.
1:10:01>> Oh wow. That's awesome.
1:10:03>> Enjoying retirement to you. So
1:10:05>> yeah.
1:10:06>> And and I was going to ask so you you do
1:10:09enjoy being
1:10:11>> Yes.
1:10:12>> Enjoy every day of it. You know, it's
1:10:14it's I mean for for those years I mean
1:10:16particularly from 76 to 98, you know,
1:10:20you you were available 24/7.
1:10:23>> Wow.
1:10:24>> Like worked so many like how many hours
1:10:26a week do you think you work?
1:10:27>> Well, you know, if you look at my time
1:10:30sheet, it
1:10:32>> that was fake news as they would say
1:10:34because you worked many more hours than
1:10:36than on that and and they didn't pay
1:10:38overtime back then. There was any point
1:10:41in and keeping up with it. But you just,
1:10:43you know, you go when when the bell
1:10:45rings and and and you stay till it rings
1:10:48again. You know, I remember one
1:10:49homicide. Uh I I've started my day at
1:10:525:00 on Wednesday and didn't get home
1:10:55until 11:00 Friday night.
1:10:57>> And and
1:10:58>> and that was work a homicide here in Y
1:11:00County. And so and I figured that one 66
1:11:03hours that and I I never left Y County,
1:11:06but I wasn't home either, you know. And
1:11:08uh it was just it was one of those deals
1:11:09where you know uh chasing leads and
1:11:12things would kind of die down and all of
1:11:14a sudden you'd get a sighting or
1:11:16whatever the suspect you you know the
1:11:18adrenaline would flow here you go again
1:11:20you know
1:11:20>> goodness
1:11:21>> and uh but that was that was a exception
1:11:24not but I mean having a 30-hour day was
1:11:27pretty common you know you just
1:11:29>> you go to work at 2:00 in the morning
1:11:31get a call out and uh you're you're out
1:11:34when the day shift comes on and you're
1:11:36out when the night shift comes comes on
1:11:37and you're still having the day ship
1:11:39comes out again the next day.
1:11:41>> But that's not a complaintant.
1:11:43>> It was interesting work and
1:11:46>> and I I wouldn't trade it for anything.
1:11:48>> But even though you're kind of tied down
1:11:50in another sense of word, you had a lot
1:11:52of free freedom and uh much more freedom
1:11:54than you did it in the Iowa patrol
1:11:56division where you had kind of set
1:11:58hours.
1:11:58>> Yeah.
1:11:59>> But you could you could arrange your
1:12:00schedule, you know. I mean, if my kids
1:12:02had a ball game in Harrisburg, well, I
1:12:04probably had something going on in
1:12:05Jonesboro and I'd go work over there and
1:12:07come back through and go to the ball
1:12:08game at night. So,
1:12:09>> it was I mean, I enjoyed it and uh it
1:12:12was a good career and yeah.
1:12:14>> Did So, being the state police like I
1:12:18guess in my mind Well, what kind of
1:12:20cases would they call you on?
1:12:22>> Anything.
1:12:23>> Yeah. I mean uh J I mean you it it could
1:12:27be I mean obviously homicides, murders,
1:12:31robberies, burglaries, any kind of
1:12:35usually generally it was felony crime.
1:12:38>> Okay.
1:12:38>> And because you're so busy working those
1:12:40didn't have time to fool with with the
1:12:42lesser crimes.
1:12:43>> Gotcha. Cuz you got I mean I would think
1:12:45that calling you guys in was like a big
1:12:47crime.
1:12:48>> Yeah. Well, not necessarily a big crowd
1:12:49and and of course in 76 not and for
1:12:52years there not every agency had
1:12:56investigators.
1:12:57>> Oh, okay.
1:12:58>> So, we got called in for uh for a lot of
1:13:01things just because the the the city or
1:13:03the county did not have an investigator
1:13:06to handle the case. Oh.
1:13:07>> So, we would they called us and of
1:13:10course that's that's why we're here, you
1:13:11know, access to other agencies. Well,
1:13:14I'm going to ask you specifically
1:13:16because um and you were kind enough to I
1:13:19heard a a talk that you gave at ASUBB
1:13:21and you talked about Henry Lucas
1:13:24connection to Arman or whatever and so I
1:13:27did cover his case and I was just going
1:13:30to ask you about the circumstances
1:13:32surrounding like meeting Henry.
1:13:35>> Well, back in the day u the A Pipkin A.
1:13:38Pitkin was a police officer in BB that
1:13:41was murdered April 5th, 1977. He was
1:13:44beaten to death and it was unsolved. And
1:13:46uh uh and this kind of uh at the time
1:13:49Henry's name, you know, he was out there
1:13:52confessing to crimes. Y
1:13:54>> and uh so we contacted the Texas
1:13:57authorities and and sent him I sent the
1:14:00whole case file, but just a synopsis of
1:14:03what happened. And uh we went down, me
1:14:06and Chris Raph was a prosecutor and Gary
1:14:08Morgan was chief deputy for the county.
1:14:10We we went down to Georgetown, Texas.
1:14:13That's where they were holding and and
1:14:15he told us about doing that.
1:14:16>> Oh, about that case though.
1:14:18>> About that case. Yeah. And but anyhow, I
1:14:23as time went on, of course, he withdrew
1:14:25a lot of those confessions and and come
1:14:27to find out, I think he'd been privy to
1:14:29and he was in the mode of confessing.
1:14:31And I mean he was this celebrity. It was
1:14:34his 15 seconds fame. And uh but we
1:14:37that's how I got initially with him. But
1:14:39then he told us about he and Otis Tool
1:14:43is running mate.
1:14:44>> He and Otis killed a girl and dumped her
1:14:47body under a bridge somewhere between
1:14:50Brford and Newport. And he agreed to
1:14:53show us where this took place. And this
1:14:55is the Scotty Scott trial was going on.
1:14:58And uh and I think maybe this was 85.
1:15:01Does that sound about right? Right. 84.
1:15:0385.
1:15:04>> Yeah. Some somewhere between 83 and 85.
1:15:06Yes.
1:15:07>> But we we flew down and picked him up
1:15:10and brought him back for trial in
1:15:12Plastic County
1:15:13>> for the Scotty Scott.
1:15:14>> Yeah. On the Scotty Scott case. And we
1:15:17of course the Texas Ranger flew up with
1:15:19him. Bob Bob Prince was the ranger. And
1:15:21uh we and I I we picked Henry up to
1:15:24Blassy County Jail. when I came here, if
1:15:25he'd already testified or was going to
1:15:27testify,
1:15:28>> but he agreed to take us up and show us
1:15:30where this where he dumped the body.
1:15:33>> And so we we went up there and of course
1:15:36I you're you're probably familiar with
1:15:37that. You know, there there's there 15
1:15:39bridges between Bradford and and uh
1:15:42>> Yes. And Newport
1:15:42>> Newport. And they all looked just alike.
1:15:44>> Yes. We took Henry under every one of
1:15:47those bridges looking and and I've
1:15:50forgotten what month this was, but the
1:15:52year before and he he had this I think
1:15:55they dumped the body in July of some
1:15:57year. Well, in October of that year, we
1:16:00had 100year flood or something like
1:16:02that. Well, we went under all those
1:16:04bridges and nothing. But I I'm convinced
1:16:08he was telling us the truth. I mean,
1:16:10that's just my gut feeling because he
1:16:12was he seemed to be with it. But the
1:16:14interesting thing was is we were driving
1:16:16north. I was sitting in the back seat
1:16:18and Henry was sitting in the middle and
1:16:20the ranger was sitting on the other side
1:16:21and up there and I can't there there's a
1:16:24used to be there's a pulloff up there
1:16:25and I can't remember between Russell and
1:16:27Bradford or somewhere up in there but it
1:16:30used to be a fruit stand set and as we
1:16:32were driving he looked over at that
1:16:34place and he said had a flat right there
1:16:36one time. I said really? He said yeah.
1:16:38He said, "Me and Henry, I mean Otis and
1:16:41and the girl, I can't think of her name
1:16:43is three." He said we were headed to
1:16:45headed to Texas and said we had a flat
1:16:49right there at that place. He said it's
1:16:52about 10:00 at night and he said we
1:16:54didn't have the jack. And so he said I
1:16:57walked up to that house and left the
1:16:59light on. They said I walked up and
1:17:00knocked on the door and there's a man,
1:17:02his wife and teenage daughter watching
1:17:04TV. And he said, "I asked him to borrow
1:17:06a jack." And he said, "The guy had a
1:17:08brown Ford LTD and he got a jack out of
1:17:11it." And uh he and he said the guy came
1:17:13down and held flashlight for us while we
1:17:15were trying. But he said we got in the
1:17:17biggest mess. He said was driving an old
1:17:19Ramar station wagon and we had
1:17:21everything jammed full and said it's a
1:17:23full we had the spare tied down on top
1:17:25and he said the flat was on the right
1:17:27front. So he said we got it jacked up
1:17:29and took the flat off and started trying
1:17:31to put the spare on and it wouldn't fit.
1:17:35said the front wheel front had disc
1:17:38brakes and that wheel wasn't designed
1:17:40for something with disc brakes. So we
1:17:42had to put that flat back on there, go
1:17:45back and jack up, take the tire off the
1:17:48right rear and put put the spare on it
1:17:50and bring this rattle in. He said is the
1:17:52dogest ribbon row you ever saw. But he
1:17:54said we finally got it done and headed
1:17:56to Texas. Well, I couldn't wait to get
1:17:58him back to I mean, of course, we were
1:18:00on the way up to look under those
1:18:02bridges,
1:18:03>> but I can't remember if it's that day or
1:18:05the next day. I I thought I'm gonna go
1:18:07talk to those people up at that house.
1:18:09So, I went to that house and sure
1:18:10enough, those pe people that live there
1:18:12weren't the folks that live there when
1:18:14this took place.
1:18:16>> So, I said, well, they told me where the
1:18:18people that moved to. So, I went over
1:18:20there and I'll never forget it was about
1:18:216:00 and he and I knocked on the door
1:18:23and a guy answered the phone and and I I
1:18:26told him why I was there and I said
1:18:28something. I said, "Do you remember
1:18:30fixing a flat right there?" He said,
1:18:31"Man," he said, "Anybody ever had a flat
1:18:34between Newport and Bradford? Had it
1:18:35right there." He said, "I can't tell you
1:18:37how many times I've helped people fix."
1:18:39And I said, "Well, this guy, you know,"
1:18:41and he go, "No, wait a minute." He said,
1:18:42"I remember." But it wasn't a guy. He
1:18:45said, "It was two guys and a girl." And
1:18:48he said they were driving an old ramper
1:18:50station wagon that was full of junk and
1:18:52had the spare tire tied down on top. And
1:18:56he said, "Is the dog on this mess?" He
1:18:58said, "The spare wouldn't fit." And he
1:19:00said, "We had to jack that car up,
1:19:02change tires around." He said, "I
1:19:04thought we never would get rid of." And
1:19:06and he said, "Then they headed on toward
1:19:08Newport." Well, Henri said they going
1:19:10toward Texas.
1:19:10>> Oh,
1:19:11>> but anyhow, and what was so funny, it
1:19:13wasn't funny to the lady, but they were
1:19:15the six o'clock news came on. Scotty
1:19:17Scott trial was one of the lead stories
1:19:20and it had a picture and as we were
1:19:23talking Henry I said I said do you
1:19:25recognize that guy right there he said
1:19:27no not really and I said that's the guy
1:19:29you changed the flat for and I thought
1:19:31his wife she nearly vapor locked went
1:19:34but anyhow I I've laughed I said I can't
1:19:36prove Henry Lee Lucas killed him by
1:19:38Arkansas but I can prove he had a flat
1:19:40in Arkansas. So for sure he was there.
1:19:43>> Wow. So anyhow,
1:19:45>> and he was very convincing.
1:19:46>> Do what?
1:19:47>> And he was very convincing. And who?
1:19:49Wow.
1:19:50>> Yeah. I mean, he it it happened because
1:19:52you got him telling a story and then you
1:19:54got an independent guy doesn't have a
1:19:55clue why I'm telling exactly the same
1:19:57story. I mean, you can't make the only
1:19:59thing is was taking Henry back to
1:20:01Georgetown the next day or whenever it
1:20:03was.
1:20:04>> I said, "Henry, you lied to me." He
1:20:06said, "How or what?" And I said, "Well,
1:20:08you told me that after you got that flat
1:20:10fixed, y'all went to Texas." He said,
1:20:12"We did." I said, 'Well, that guy told
1:20:14me you went back toward Newport.' He
1:20:16said, 'W wait a minute.' He says, 'Is
1:20:17there a liquor store back up there a
1:20:18couple of three miles? And I said,
1:20:20'Yeah.' He said, we were hot and tired
1:20:22and we remember passing that liquor
1:20:23store. So, we drove back up there and
1:20:25bought a six-ack of beer and then headed
1:20:27to Texas. So, I mean, even I mean, they
1:20:29were just g.
1:20:31>> Yeah,
1:20:31>> but he
1:20:35he he was a I think he was he killed
1:20:38several people, but not 14. He cuz I
1:20:41remember when we were with them a lot of
1:20:43time with those rangers down there
1:20:45>> and they were I remember specifically
1:20:48one of them he Henry was taking them out
1:20:51somewhere down there to show where a
1:20:53body was
1:20:54>> and they was right he said he said
1:20:57there's a body right down there they
1:20:59didn't have a clue so they turned around
1:21:01drove down through and sure enough they
1:21:02found
1:21:04>> so I mean he he did
1:21:06>> but he enjoyed the line white you know
1:21:09anyhow there's that book. I I never read
1:21:11the thing. I I got it just too dark.
1:21:14>> Yes. Very dark.
1:21:15>> That time I mean I spent many hours in
1:21:18that whole thing. But uh
1:21:20>> that scares me to death. But anyway,
1:21:22>> uh we when we when we landed we we we're
1:21:26thinking about weight and balance and
1:21:28Henry about the size of me at the time.
1:21:31And uh and I thought the ranger I
1:21:34thought he probably it go close to 200.
1:21:37>> So you got me and John and Henry and the
1:21:39Ranger. And so we thought, so when we
1:21:40pulled in, we told the guy there, I
1:21:42said, "Don't,
1:21:43you know, put so many gallons on each
1:21:46side cuz we didn't want to top the tanks
1:21:48off cuz it might be too heavy to fly."
1:21:50>> Yeah.
1:21:50>> And uh that Ranger was probably 280 or
1:21:54290ish.
1:21:58>> Wow. And when we got back out to the
1:22:00airplane to leave, the the fuel was
1:22:04dripping out of the ovals. Well, they
1:22:05topped off the tanks and that thing had
1:22:07long range tanks on it.
1:22:10>> And thought, "Oh my gosh." Well, we were
1:22:13kind of in a hurry.
1:22:15>> And John said, "We're going to have to
1:22:17drain some off." And that that runway I
1:22:20that is 78,000 is a long runway. And I
1:22:23said, "John, let's not let's not brain
1:22:26stuff. Let's take that thing out there
1:22:28just see how it feels.
1:22:30>> I said I think it'll fly.
1:22:33>> It's probably my most power plane to do.
1:22:35And uh so anyhow we did that and we took
1:22:39and it took a took a pretty good bit of
1:22:40the runway but John left it off and we
1:22:43were getting about 100 foot a minute
1:22:45rate of climb. Mhm.
1:22:46>> And and uh but anyhow, we went up three
1:22:50or 4 hundred feet in the air and that
1:22:51ranger leaned forward to say something
1:22:53to us and that of course that I mean we
1:22:55were on it's like balance in the
1:22:59old dip but it was but we survived it.
1:23:02That's that wasn't the smartest thing we
1:23:03ever did but we survived it, you know.
1:23:05>> So was it the four of you in the plane?
1:23:08Yeah.
1:23:08>> Oh wow.
1:23:09>> And it was in the back with the ranger.
1:23:11>> Okay. Then the two of you up front.
1:23:14>> Yeah. That gives me anxiety. you think,
1:23:16>> but I don't like to fly, so
1:23:18>> Oh, I I love it.
1:23:19>> Oh, really? Well, good. So, you got to
1:23:20spend a lot of time with you. So,
1:23:22>> Well, I really appreciate you talking
1:23:24about Henry. This was um he's a Yeah,
1:23:28everything that you said kind of backed
1:23:30up what you see in the f, you know.
1:23:32Well, it makes sense. Um it it just all
1:23:35he was terrible but he uh him muddying
1:23:38the waters on cases that he didn't do
1:23:41really
1:23:42>> stunk on top of the horrendous things he
1:23:44did do.
1:23:45>> Yeah.
1:23:45>> So but anyway terrible
1:23:48>> and of course in the a pick trial that
1:23:52came up. Oh
1:23:53>> yeah, he come up that that that he that
1:23:55he confessed to take homicide
1:23:57>> and of course but then we had a timeline
1:24:00on him
1:24:01>> and he wasn't anywhere near here when
1:24:03Nate Pipkin is killed. So I mean
1:24:06>> Yeah.
1:24:06>> Yeah. So and everybody knew he was
1:24:09>> a liar.
1:24:10>> Yeah.
1:24:10>> Yeah. He was he was ret
1:24:13staring those death penalties in in the
1:24:15face and then
1:24:16>> Yeah. And that was 2002. So he passed in
1:24:192001. So he would have even been gone by
1:24:22that time. But yeah, he was definitely
1:24:24especially even by goodness by the time
1:24:26he put out this book, he was, you know,
1:24:29people were
1:24:30>> um laughing.
1:24:32>> He died in 01
1:24:33>> in Yes. in 2001. So he was he was so you
1:24:38know he was supposed to be executed in
1:24:4098 and his sentence uh Governor Bush at
1:24:44that time commuted his sentence right
1:24:46before.
1:24:47>> Okay. But yeah, he died of heart failure
1:24:49by 2001.
1:24:51>> I didn't I didn't realize it that long
1:24:53ago. I remember when it passed away, but
1:24:56>> thank you all for listening to the Henry
1:24:58Lee Lucas case. It's heinous. Um just
1:25:02awful. And just leave a comment on what
1:25:06you think. And a big shout out to J.R.
1:25:09Howard for the interview, for his
1:25:12insight um on his meeting with Henry Lee
1:25:16Lucas. That was so fascinating. So yeah,
1:25:18so thank you guys for being here with
1:25:20me. Uh stay tuned for next week and
1:25:22please follow, comment, do all the
1:25:26things for me. I appreciate it. Bye.
1:25:29[Music]
1:25:45[Applause]
1:25:48So thank

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