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Let’s Talk About Covetousness — Transcript

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0:16Hello. How are you?
0:17>> What's good with y'all?
0:19>> Um, kind of just want to get started in
0:21the conversation.
0:22>> You're excited about this one, huh?
0:24>> I shouldn't be, but you should be.
0:28>> Freedom. freedom.
0:30>> Yeah, because we got Melissa Krueger
0:33with us again. Y'all y'all saw Melissa
0:35earlier a couple weeks ago when we sat
0:38down with her and Mike, [clears throat]
0:39not Dr. Krueger, Mike Krueger [laughter]
0:42to talk about discipling our kids. But
0:44now we we're talking to Melissa about
0:47something that people don't talk about
0:48enough. I've been telling Melissa that
0:51she need to rewrite, not even rewrite,
0:53do put some addendums on there or
0:55something like to just this book. Let me
0:57tell the story. Can I tell the story?
0:59>> Go ahead.
0:59>> Okay. About 6 months ago, I there was
1:03like some stuff I was wrestling with,
1:04primarily jealousy. Anytime I'm
1:06wrestling with stuff, it's a weird
1:09thing. It's like I want to understand it
1:12so I can fight it better. So, I just
1:13started looking at books about the
1:15subject. And so, I started I started
1:18reading about jealousy, which took me to
1:22this idea of contentment, which took me
1:24to this idea of coveretousness. I said,
1:27"Huh, that's weird. I didn't even know
1:29there was a connection there." So, I'm
1:30googling books about covetousness. I see
1:34this book called The Envy of Eve written
1:36by Melissa Kroo. I said, "Melissa, you
1:38got a book about co I just could have
1:40called you, girl." And I did call you.
1:41>> I know. [cough and laughter]
1:42>> So, Melissa has a book that she wrote a
1:45long time ago that is so relevant.
1:48>> How long ago?
1:49>> It came out in 2012.
1:51>> Baby. Wow.
1:52>> It's It's my baby book. It's my first
1:54book.
1:54>> Is it?
1:55>> Yeah. It's the first book I wrote and I
1:56was Yes, I was writing it.
1:58>> Wow.
1:59>> I was writing it around 2009.
2:01>> So, I've been reading it all morning and
2:02I thought it was a new book.
2:03>> Yeah.
2:04>> It's is it's is relevant. It's called
2:05The Envy of Eve. Finding
2:07>> pre- Instagram,
2:08>> was it?
2:09>> Wow. So, you was on Twitter.
2:10>> I mean, there was actually I wasn't even
2:12on Twitter. I wrote a book before
2:14Twitter. I was on Twitter or Instagram.
2:16>> We need a We need a
2:18>> You just promoted it by going to like
2:19Barnes & Noles and stuff.
2:20>> Yeah. [laughter]
2:22>> Read my book. I mean, it was it was a
2:24different world.
2:25>> It was a different world.
2:26>> Why is your first book about
2:27covetousness of all the things to talk
2:29about, Melissa Krueger?
2:30>> Well, that might get into personal
2:33places, Jackie.
2:34>> You don't have to be transparent, but
2:35[laughter] you got to be
2:36>> No, that's a you know, um
2:38>> cuz that's that's diving off the deep
2:39end.
2:40>> It is. That's a good question. I one I
2:43would say what I was seeing in scripture
2:45was intersecting my life. So, you have
2:48that moment when you're like, "Huh, I'm
2:50studying." I was actually studying the
2:51book of Joshua,
2:53>> you know, completely not the book you
2:56think, oh, this is a book on envy. I was
2:57studying that.
2:59>> But what I was realizing was
3:02I had finally, what I would say, gotten
3:05what I wanted. You know, you think, oh,
3:09yeah, you spend your life thinking, oh
3:10yeah, I want to one day get married and
3:12one day have kids and, you know, one day
3:15have the house. And we had we had spent
3:18a lot of time moving. We had lived
3:20overseas, which at different points was
3:22really hard for me. Um, and I had my
3:24first baby overseas. And I remember
3:26thinking,
3:27>> if I could just do this in America, it'd
3:29be a lot easier. You know, you're
3:30constantly comparing your situation with
3:32someone else's.
3:33>> Well, then finally I was back in
3:35America. Uh Mike had a job because at
3:37that time when we had Emma, he was in
3:39school. So, you know, money Scotland,
3:41right? Yeah. In Scotland. So, money was
3:42really tight. All these things I thought
3:44once I get those things,
3:47>> my life will be fine. And then the Lord
3:49gave me those things.
3:51>> And then I realized I wanted more.
3:54>> And I realized I started having to deal
3:58with the fact that my discontentment was
4:01not about my circumstances, but it was
4:03about my heart. And what I was looking
4:05at in Joshua and seeing some connections
4:08with Eve,
4:10>> um, I started seeing this pattern in
4:12scripture
4:13>> and I, you know, I really saw it as the
4:15the pattern of the enemy that played out
4:18in my life so much is that see, covet,
4:21take hide.
4:23>> And um, and I was just confronted with
4:26the circumstances of my life and the
4:28scriptures
4:29>> in this beautiful way. And so I wanted
4:31to explore more and what I saw was it
4:33wasn't just me. Yeah,
4:34>> I could look around and say, "Wow, this
4:38comparison game is just robbing us all
4:40of joy."
4:41>> Um, [clears throat]
4:42>> and so,
4:43>> wow.
4:43>> What did you discover about Eve or how
4:49do cuz I mean I think when people read
4:51Genesis 3, we easily identify deceit and
4:56pride. But I guess what about that
4:58exchange with Satan and even how she
5:00viewed the tree showed you covetousness?
5:02>> Yes. Well, it was actually so when I was
5:05studying Achen in Joshua. So if you
5:08remember the story, um they've just had
5:10the battle of Jericho, the walls come
5:12down and they were told, the Israelites
5:14were told, "When you go in, everything's
5:16dedicated to the Lord. Don't take
5:18anything."
5:19>> Well, then the next battle against Ai,
5:21they go out and they, you know, they get
5:23defeated. And Joshua's like, "What's
5:25happening? What's going on?" And
5:28basically the Lord's like, "You've got
5:30somebody in the camp who has sinned. And
5:32they go tribe by tribe. And now we we
5:34get there with Achen. And Achen
5:37confesses and he says, "When I saw
5:40basically the stuff, you know, there was
5:42a robe, some gold, some silver." He
5:44goes, "I I coveted,
5:46>> I took them and I hid them." And there's
5:49actually a little note in my Bible that
5:52said, "This is the same pattern
5:54>> in the garden."
5:56>> And I So I was like, "Huh, is [laughter]
5:58it?" And so I looked it up and I did a
6:00word study on the word covet and it's
6:02the exact same Hebrew word. It says she
6:05saw that it was desirable. That word is
6:09the same word cham kamad. I'm probably
6:12saying that incorrectly but that is used
6:15to be translated covet. So it's like she
6:17saw that it was covetable
6:20>> in some sense and then she took
6:23>> and she ate it and what did she do? She
6:25hid.
6:26>> You know so it's the exact same pattern.
6:28And then once you see a pattern, you
6:29start seeing it everywhere because then
6:31you've got David. So, and this is what's
6:33interesting. First garden, see, covet,
6:36take, hide.
6:37>> Then we're in the promised land. First
6:39first victory, see, covet, take, hide.
6:44>> First
6:45king of all kings. I mean, he wasn't the
6:47first king. Saul was the first king, but
6:48David was the king after God's own
6:50heart.
6:51>> What did he do?
6:52>> Oh, he saw Basheba.
6:54>> He coveted because lust is a form of
6:56coveting. Yeah.
6:57>> He took and what did he do? He hid what
7:00he had done.
7:00>> Yeah, he did.
7:01>> And so you start to see that pattern all
7:03over scripture. Like
7:06>> maybe maybe this is a problem for me
7:08too.
7:09>> Yeah. Another thing that you pointed out
7:11in your book as it relates to Genesis 3
7:13is that Adam and Eve was provided with
7:16everything they needed.
7:17>> Yes.
7:18>> Like like he literally gave them all
7:21that they needed to flourish. Gave them
7:23the garden, told them to tend over it.
7:25gave them two trees, right? The
7:27knowledge of good and evil and the tree
7:29of life. And what is it in us that makes
7:34us want things to coveret things that
7:36that's not
7:38ours? Like what like what is that? What
7:41do you think that is?
7:42>> Well, I think the first thing that
7:43happened in the garden is really
7:45informative for us because the first
7:48thing is basically Satan is coming to
7:51them. I mean, we hear the question he
7:53asks them and the underlying assumption
7:56is, is God really good?
7:58>> Isn't he keeping something from you?
8:01Because, you know, if you could eat of
8:03it,
8:04>> you know, you'd be like God, knowing
8:06good and evil. And so, I think there's
8:08this um question that comes to all of
8:12us. Is God keeping something good from
8:15you? Um, and I think that's at the heart
8:17of my coveting is it's it's not simply,
8:20oh, I have a desire. Because here's the
8:23reality for all of us, which was not
8:24true of Adam and Eve.
8:25>> We all live on the other side of the
8:27fall. So, I always want to say having
8:30desires isn't wrong.
8:32>> Um, you know, there are really good
8:34desires we can have.
8:36>> It's when it turns covetous, it's
8:38normally actually not about my
8:40circumstances and about actually what I
8:43think about God. And it it gets into two
8:46ways. Are you good or and and are you
8:49are you able to make a difference? Like,
8:51you know, and in some ways that's
8:53exactly what Satan was saying. And
8:55because it was kind of like surely you
8:58won't die.
8:59>> Yeah.
8:59>> God's not really going to care about
9:01this. [laughter]
9:02>> You know, I know he said he was, but
9:04he's really probably not. It's who
9:06cares? And that's I think how he tempts
9:08us. Like
9:10>> God doesn't care about your little inner
9:13desires. Yeah.
9:15>> Yeah.
9:15>> I was sharing with Preston earlier how
9:18uh cuz covetous is is the last command.
9:22>> Yeah.
9:23>> And I was listening to this podcast. I
9:26always mention Tim Keller because I
9:27listen to him all the time, but Tim had
9:30a a sermon about contentment
9:32>> and he talks about covetousness and how
9:35it's kind of bracketing the command to,
9:38you know, love the Lord, not not make
9:40idols and stuff like that. and then this
9:41ending with covetousness and how it's
9:43like when you covet you break the first
9:45command which inevitably causes you to
9:47break all of them. And I think knowing
9:49that you realize how um
9:53how covetousness influences so many of
9:56the sinful decisions that we make.
9:58>> You know what I'm saying? Because I
9:59think we we think oh yeah
10:01>> I'm lustful as you say but you don't
10:03realize that that lust is being produced
10:05by covetousness. I remember telling you,
10:07I was like, when I started to think
10:09through all the ways covetousness
10:11manifested in my life, I was like, even
10:13lesbianism is covetousness. I'm I'm I'm
10:16pursuing something outside of God's
10:18design for me. I'm trying to grab at
10:20something that I'm actually not supposed
10:22to have. I would dare argue that
10:24transgenderism is a form of covetousness
10:27where I you are in a male body or a
10:30female body grabbing at a gender that
10:32does not belong to you.
10:33>> And not only that, lust. I mean, I think
10:35a lot of men, I've said this before on
10:37podcast, but a lot of men watch porn
10:40vicariously living through men who are
10:42not being rejected. And so, it's not
10:44just the mere lust, but it's also this
10:47this idea of not being like being the
10:50man, being wanted, being desired,
10:54>> especially if you feel rejected in your
10:55marriage, right, sexually. And so, it
10:58covers so much.
10:59>> And covetousness is kind of that
11:00umbrella, right? So you've got types,
11:03you know, you've got lust, which is
11:05normally sexual in nature, but you've
11:07also got greed. We see the world, right?
11:09I mean, it's all, you know, I mean, I
11:12think was it Emerson who said, "How much
11:13is enough?" He's like, "Well, just a
11:15little bit more." I'm not sure who said
11:16it, but you know that. And and then
11:18you've got envy, which is a little bit
11:20like your neighbor, you know.
11:22>> So, is covetousness different than envy?
11:24>> I think envy is a type of covetousness.
11:27So I I call covetousness the big name
11:30for all types of
11:33>> what they would say would be like
11:34inordinate desires like desires I just
11:36like to say like desires that have
11:38soured
11:39>> you know desires that just either and I
11:42think you you bring up a good point
11:43either they're on um we can have a
11:46desire for a good thing that turns sour
11:50>> or we can have a desire for something
11:52that's clearly outside of what scripture
11:54says. So for instance, like if I have a
11:57desire for a husband, that's a good
11:59thing. But we've all seen that desire
12:01turn sour in people. But now if I have a
12:04desire for your husband,
12:06>> that's a bad thing altogether. So the
12:08desire in itself is bad. And so that's
12:11where, you know, we've got to it's it's
12:13helpful to understand there are two
12:14different ways we can kind of go
12:17>> off the rails.
12:18>> Wow.
12:21>> Marriage is a beautiful thing. Uh, it's
12:23a covenant that God himself created. A
12:25covenant that we are called to honor and
12:27uplift and esteem and value. But it's
12:30also difficult. Sorry, I got called my
12:33throat cuz I was talking about the
12:34difficulty of being married to a sinner.
12:36Uh, and that's why we need help.
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13:51I want to connect this to God again cuz
13:55it's connected to him because the the
13:58root of covetousness even as you
14:00communicate in the book is unbelief. And
14:02I think sometimes
14:05there's a lack of awareness of how our
14:07desires are influenced by our fa our
14:11frameworks. And so I I guess I want to
14:14flesh out more
14:16>> what like the consequence of just not
14:18trusting him is. And you know what I'm
14:20saying? And helping people think through
14:22if I'm greedy or naturally even when you
14:25were in Scotland,
14:27>> you you alone. You want your friends.
14:29You said you wanted a washer and dryer
14:31like all of that. [laughter] You
14:32wouldn't think that just the washer and
14:35dryer is a manifest of unbelief.
14:37Somebody would say that's dramatic. You
14:39understand what I'm saying? So like talk
14:41about the unbelief part of all the day.
14:43>> Yes. And and and that's where there are
14:45days I held that that desire rightly
14:48>> and I could say, "Lord, this is your
14:50will for me to have to walk down five
14:52flights of stairs to do my laundry. I'm
14:54going to trust you with it." But then,
14:57you know, it it can turn sour, you know,
14:59and and and we know that in our own
15:01hearts when I'm grumbling and
15:03complaining. Look at the Israelites.
15:04They always got in trouble because what
15:06they've grumbled and complained about
15:08God's provision
15:09>> because basically at some level, my
15:12unbelief is saying, "God, you haven't
15:15been good enough to me."
15:16>> And so, I think it's this battle in our
15:19souls. And and here's here's the saddest
15:22thing to me.
15:24If we want a down payment on is God
15:27promising he'll be good for us. Yeah.
15:29>> He's given it to us. And Romans tells us
15:32this. [clears throat] He says basically
15:35>> this this God, if you want to know for
15:37sure if he loves you, he says, "Well,
15:39actually, I came into this world. I
15:41became a man and I suffered and died a
15:44terrible death on the cross so that I
15:46might be with you." And then he's like,
15:48"Can you trust me
15:50>> with everything else?" M
15:52>> and I'm basically saying, well, yeah, I
15:55know you came and you died for me, but
15:58you you did that for her, too, and you
16:00gave her the minivan I want.
16:04>> That that's that what what that is
16:06saying is I know nothing of what was
16:08done for me.
16:10>> You know, it's kind of like this. The
16:11example I like to give is if if I gave
16:13you $100 million and you $100 million
16:16and then I gave Jackie a penny and you
16:18were like, I can't believe you don't
16:20you're you don't you're not good to me.
16:22[laughter]
16:23>> I gave you both $100 million because
16:25then you understand what that gift was.
16:27So you know the
16:29>> every single thing in this world is a
16:31penny.
16:33>> In comparison to the fact that Jesus
16:35Christ gave his
16:37>> life for me. M
16:38>> I mean I have eternity and so it's my
16:41unbelief in that home that makes me try
16:44to make this world my home.
16:45>> That's really good.
16:46>> Do do you do you think
16:50you know how in Romans 1
16:53it says where is it at? I can't find it.
16:58But where they thought themselves wise.
17:00>> Yeah.
17:01>> Do you think there's a a part of us
17:04where we think ourselves wiser than God?
17:06Like it it kind of has this sense of
17:08like
17:09>> we are lowkey not like obviously but
17:12like we're low-key accusing God of some
17:14type of injustice.
17:16>> Absolutely.
17:17>> Yeah. I mean, I realized actually Mike,
17:20he he has this example that he put on a
17:22board and it wasn't about this topic,
17:24but he drew he drew a big circle on this
17:27whiteboard and he was like, if we were
17:29to greatly limit God and we said this is
17:32everything God knows about everything,
17:34>> you know, and that's obviously limiting
17:35because we know he's infinite, all
17:37knowing, you know, but if we said and
17:39then if we were to overestimate
17:42ourselves and put a little small dot on
17:45that big circle, that's how much we know
17:47about the universe and here I am the dot
17:50>> saying to the master of the [laughter]
17:52universe I really know better how my
17:55life should run
17:57>> and think about how terrifying it would
17:59actually be if we were in charge of our
18:02lives it would be like giving full rain
18:03to a toddler in the house
18:05>> horrific
18:06>> you know and we all look at the toddler
18:08we know when to say no
18:10>> and we know when it's not better
18:12>> and I think it's really hard for us
18:14that's where the unbelief comes
18:17I can't believe that this might be for
18:20my best good,
18:22>> you know, but but he promises that
18:25actually everything he's doing, he is
18:28working for good. It doesn't mean
18:29everything's good. I always want to
18:31stress that like
18:32>> we can mourn. That's why there are
18:33psalms of lament.
18:34>> Yeah.
18:34>> I mean, you know, I talk about crying
18:37all the time.
18:38>> I mean, there's a right thing to mourn,
18:39but I think it's a really different
18:40thing to complain to God than to
18:43complain about God. M.
18:45>> So that's where I think the difference,
18:47the heart of the difference.
18:48>> One one thing I love about the book is I
18:51think you do a really good job of
18:52explaining how the enemy wants us to
18:54covet things, not to just um question
18:57the character of God, but also to rob us
18:59of relationships.
19:02>> Yes.
19:02>> And one one quote that you said in the
19:05book that I really
19:05>> I want y'all to keep talking, but
19:07because this is our podcast, I feel like
19:08I have the right to interrupt and let
19:10y'all keep talking cuz it's getting hot
19:11and I just want to turn the air up. Go
19:13ahead. [laughter]
19:14All right. You said you said if you set
19:17your desires um or your affections on
19:20what belongs to your neighbor, you will
19:22never be able to love the person. Well,
19:25you will think of them only in terms of
19:27what they possess instead of who they
19:29are.
19:30>> That's good. I was like,
19:32>> and I've I've um
19:34>> I've had, you know, um very
19:37heartbreaking friendships that kind of
19:39ended, you know, of people who I felt
19:42like it's weird like I I feel this
19:43weirdness between us. And I know you
19:45like me,
19:46>> but I I feel like at times they wasn't
19:48able to love me cuz they they looked at
19:50what I what I have. just explain how
19:53that go like go deeper in how like the
19:56enemy wants us to cover things to ruin
19:58the relationships in our lives and what
20:00does that practically look like and how
20:02to avoid it. That's good.
20:03>> Yeah, it's a double-edged sword this sin
20:05because it it vertically
20:08>> makes us not trust the Lord and then
20:11horizontally we start looking at someone
20:13else as as the sum of what they have.
20:17So, let's say, you know, I mean, in in
20:21my case, I could say, okay, let's say
20:23I'm a woman and I desperately want a
20:24husband. Well, you have one
20:27>> and now
20:29>> you can't get how hard my life is. Um,
20:32so, so there's, you know, and and when
20:34you have a struggle, I'm kind of like,
20:36well, yeah, but you know, you have a
20:38husband to help you out.
20:39>> You totally missing that actually
20:41sometimes your husband might be the
20:42cause of your struggles. [laughter]
20:44>> Sorry. Never. I'm sure that never is the
20:45case, but
20:46>> No, it is. But but we miss each other,
20:48right? I can't listen to your story
20:51because I'm so obsessed with what's
20:54lacking in my own story
20:56>> that I miss you.
20:57>> Wow.
20:57>> Because I'm It's just complete
20:59self-focus. Like, you know, you have the
21:02one thing I want, so therefore, you must
21:04have no problems because I've made it an
21:06idol.
21:07>> So therefore, that's the one thing I
21:09would trust for my security, my safety.
21:12Yeah. Whereas that should all be on the
21:13Lord. And then if we both have the Lord,
21:15I can love you even when you have the
21:17thing I very much desire because I know
21:20I we both have the better thing.
21:21>> Yeah. It robs us of like real true
21:23connection.
21:24>> Yeah.
21:25>> Cuz we because I I think what you're
21:27essentially saying is when we covet
21:28after other people's possessions or
21:30things, we never really see them.
21:32>> That's right.
21:32>> We don't we never see them. And so you
21:34because you don't see them,
21:36>> you never really connect. And um I think
21:38I've I've been guilty of that, you know,
21:40in the past. I think we've all kind of
21:41been guilty of that cuz I think it's
21:43hard not to like see somebody else and
21:44not compare yourself at times
21:47>> with other human beings.
21:48>> Yeah.
21:48>> And I think the verse that really struck
21:50me about that is rejoice with those who
21:53rejoice and mourn with those who mourn.
21:55>> And what I find when I'm coveting in
21:57some way, I really find it hard to
22:00rejoice.
22:02>> Oh. [laughter] Oh, she got one more good
22:04thing. Okay. And or I find it really
22:07hard to mourn. I'm like,
22:09>> "Yeah, they're talking about something
22:11that's really hard in their life."
22:12You're like, "It's not that hard. I
22:13mean, what's her problem?" You
22:15[laughter]
22:16>> Yeah.
22:16>> I mean, you know, I I judge them on both
22:18counts. Rather than say,
22:20>> "Hey, maybe what she's going through
22:23wouldn't be hard for me, but that's
22:25exactly what the Lord's using in her
22:27life to make her more like Jesus.
22:29>> So, can I mourn with her what's hard in
22:32her life?" And it just blocks that.
22:34>> That's good. You you said something that
22:36I think is actually a helpful tool when
22:37it comes to us searching our hearts is
22:40how where there is some degree of
22:43jealousy or envy or covetousness I think
22:47we can trace it to some kind of idol
22:51and I guess for you I'm going keep using
22:55Scotland as an example uh you wanting an
23:00easier way of washing clothes on the
23:04surface is is not a problematic idea.
23:07But how did you identify what the idol
23:09was and how did you exchange the idol
23:13for faith?
23:14>> Yeah. Well, it hit me like a ton of
23:16bricks one day. Um I was actually maybe
23:20I was reading the Bible through a year
23:21or doing something like that and I came
23:22to this verse um do not be like the
23:26horse or mule who have to be controlled
23:28by bitten bridal or they will not come
23:30to you. So I was kind of I was pretty
23:32prideful. You know, I had come to
23:35Scotland to support my husband as he was
23:38getting his PhD. So, I was being the
23:41good Christian woman who had done the
23:43right thing. So, I had every right to be
23:46angry and mad when it was hard,
23:49>> you know, in some ways. And and to be
23:51quite honest, the person I took it out
23:52on most was Mike.
23:54>> Um, and so, you know, and and it reminds
23:57>> I'm sorry, Mike. You made it through.
23:59[laughter]
23:59Well, and what causes fights and
24:02quarrels among you, James,
24:03>> is it not the
24:05>> your desires which battle in you? And I
24:09remember just feeling just hit it. It
24:12was like the spirit took that verse and
24:14and just automatically applied it to my
24:17life of yeah, you've come, you've
24:19obeyed,
24:20>> but you're like the horse or the mule
24:22who's being controlled by bit and
24:24bridal. And so you're angry and you're
24:26chomping at the bit, so to speak. And so
24:29what I really saw was I was really sour.
24:32>> I wasn't joyful in in what I was doing.
24:35And and the Lord had to really confront
24:37me with, hey, your inner desire to be in
24:41to live in a different place and to not
24:43be here is robbing you of what is here,
24:47>> you know? So I was missing this amazing
24:48experience. Yeah.
24:49>> Cuz I was just like,
24:51>> I don't have a car. I got to walk
24:53everywhere. Yeah. I mean, you can either
24:54grumble about things or you can look
24:56around and be like, "Wow, I get to I get
24:57to spend a couple years in this amazing
24:59city."
25:00>> And I was definitely choosing the
25:02ladder. And it made me miserable. And it
25:04I'm sure my husband was probably pretty
25:06miserable. It was not fun.
25:07>> Yeah.
25:08>> He said, "I'm going just keep working on
25:10this paper while you while you're doing
25:12all that over."
25:13>> That's good. It gave him a lot of time
25:14on his research. It's easier. I I think
25:17the thing that we can coveret um well
25:19not I I want to say the most but I think
25:21one of the most common things is
25:23possessions particularly money. The
25:26Bible says the the love of money is the
25:27root of all evil. And that's the reason
25:29why I love like in chapter four of your
25:31book you talked about Judas a lot. Um
25:35and you you made me look at Judas in
25:37ways that I I I never really looked at
25:39before. And I I've I've read like
25:41stories like when he was in Bethany or
25:43whatever and you know Jesus after you
25:45know Mary anoints his body with oil,
25:47Judas gets mad because he's like you
25:49could have gave this to the poor and
25:50yada yada. He's like no you really just
25:53mad because you love money more than you
25:54love
25:55>> thief. you a thief,
25:57>> you know, and I I I start to think about
26:00that, you know, and when I think about
26:03Judas, I I love the the show The Chosen
26:06cuz I love how they um kind of kind of
26:09give color to like what they probably
26:11was going through cuz I think a lot of
26:13times we find love and money because we
26:15don't trust that God will provide or we
26:17want to just security. something that we
26:20are not trusting the Lord for that makes
26:22us kind of fall in love with with with
26:24money or whatever. So I I think I I want
26:27you to talk about the dangers of like
26:30like falling in love with money and and
26:32the temptation to trust in our resources
26:36and covet our resources um
26:39>> over over the Lord.
26:40>> That's great. I think I think it was
26:43Keller. He had four kind of root idols
26:46that he often talked about. Comfort,
26:48approval, power. I'm always going to
26:51forget the other one. I don't know.
26:52>> This isn't counterfeit gods.
26:54>> Yes. Counterfeit gods. And and and
26:56here's the thing. In those four, power,
27:00power, control, approval, comfort. Okay.
27:03Those four.
27:03>> I know those four.
27:04>> Um and in those four, I know because I
27:06always laugh. I'm like, well, between
27:08Mike and I, we have all four of them
27:09covered. um that people tend to go
27:11toward one. And here's the thing, money
27:14kind of can solve any of those. If
27:17you're hungry for power, money is going
27:18to give you power. If you like comfort,
27:21money is going to give you comfort. If
27:23you like approval, guess what? Everybody
27:24always likes the person with money.
27:26>> I don't remember what it says. I think
27:27in the Bible it says, "Money answers all
27:29things." Somewhere in the scriptures, I
27:31forget where. Sound like a proverb.
27:33Proverb probably.
27:34>> Yeah. And so the reality is a lot of our
27:38idols the the root idols which we all so
27:41I might want it for a different reason
27:42than you want it
27:44>> but we see it as the solution to
27:46whatever problem we may have. So it just
27:48becomes Yeah. It's it's fascinating
27:50right there are coins saying God we
27:52trust
27:53>> when we as a people in money we trust.
27:55Like I find I mean it's so easy to be
27:58like oh I'm okay we have a 401k.
28:00>> Oh yeah. You feel secure.
28:02>> I'm okay. we have, you know, all the,
28:04you know, our house is secure or
28:06whatever. It's so easy
28:08>> to just by being responsible
28:11>> to start slowly trusting in it.
28:13>> Yeah.
28:14>> And I think that's what makes it so
28:16dangerous.
28:17>> Because it's just so easy to be like,
28:20I'm I'm safe, not because the Lord's
28:22going to take care of me,
28:23>> but because I've got enough resources.
28:25>> Yeah. I think what's what's what's
28:27really good is when you was talking
28:28about Judas in the book, you was talking
28:30about how the scripture says he he's a
28:32son of destruction like you know and all
28:34the things and you said that you know
28:36Judas love of money didn't prevent him
28:38no no didn't didn't make him stop
28:40believing in God it prevented him from
28:42seeing God as savior in the first place
28:45and how like our our love how we coveret
28:48money it can literally make us miss the
28:51Lord and not see him for who he truly is
28:54and I was just like wow That's
28:56>> really really deep to me.
28:57>> Yeah.
28:57>> This weekend I was um I think last
29:00weekend I was watching I just been
29:03re-watching documentaries. I need to
29:05send you some of [laughter]
29:06>> I was going to ask I was like any good
29:08>> I think you see this one. It's about
29:09maid off. Have you seen that one on
29:11Netflix?
29:12>> I don't know if I've seen that one.
29:13Okay.
29:14>> So there's a documentary on uh Bernie
29:16Maid off. Bernie Maidoff was
29:18>> I did see this. No, you did cuz me and
29:20me me and Melissa will talk about
29:21[laughter] documentaries and we've
29:23always watched all of them already.
29:24Bernie Maid off was like a so-called uh
29:28Wall Street investor and he basically
29:31ended up being exposed as running one of
29:34the largest or the largest Ponzi scheme
29:36in history um where he accumulated or
29:40like basically stole in essence $69
29:43billion um [clears throat] it was
29:45insane. I mean ruin people's lives
29:47>> completely like because people would
29:50invest their money with maid off and he
29:53was promising these super unrealistic
29:57but high returns.
29:58>> I remember you telling me about that.
30:00>> Yeah. And so when he got exposed they
30:02realized because it was a PY scheme he
30:04would take money from Melissa and give
30:06that money to Preston. So there actually
30:08wasn't any investments. So you got
30:10people that put a h 100,000, people that
30:11put 500,000, people that put the
30:13retirement, people that put their kids
30:14education. So that when he went to jail,
30:16that money is gone. And what was
30:19fascinating to me is that there were a
30:21lot of red flags.
30:23>> And I kept thinking about why did people
30:26ignore the red flags?
30:28>> And it's because of the returns.
30:29>> Yeah.
30:30>> You're getting such high returns back.
30:33you're getting all of this money back
30:36that you start to ignore the red flags
30:38because of what it's doing to your
30:39pockets. And I was just thinking about
30:41how greed and for many it wasn't even
30:44greed, it was security. How it kind of
30:47messes with our vision a little bit. And
30:48I was just like, Lord, so much of this
30:51is just idolatry.
30:53>> Yes.
30:53>> Being made manifest in particular ways.
30:55Security or greed has and and that's not
30:58everybody. I ain't saying they ain't
30:59pray about it and all this stuff, but I
31:00am saying that there was a culture of
31:02idolatry that led to that type of
31:03dynamic. And so I just think I don't
31:05know. I just added that cuz I I just
31:06watched it.
31:07>> Well, and I think it's I think it's one
31:09of the reasons the Lord invites us to
31:13give generously and some people, you
31:15know, really would say to tithe
31:17regularly or whatever. I realize it's a
31:19check on my heart.
31:20>> Yeah, it is. you know, it's it's
31:22actually good for my soul,
31:24>> you know, and we we know that all of the
31:26Lord's commands are good for me to do.
31:29>> That's good.
31:30>> And so that act of giving is actually
31:32him loosening my grip on what I'm
31:34trusting in.
31:36>> You know, we tend to think, oh, how
31:37lucky they are I gave.
31:39>> It's actually no, no, I'm protecting you
31:42>> by asking you to be a generous giver.
31:45Yeah, it
31:46>> it's it's a good
31:48>> discipline for my heart because
31:50sometimes I mean we'll be down at the
31:52beach and I'm looking around and I'm
31:53like who has all the money for all this
31:56stuff, [laughter] you know, cuz I'm
31:58like, how do all these people have boats
32:01and houses and all of this stuff? And
32:05you know, Mike sometimes will be like,
32:06well, just think about 10% of all of
32:09your earnings and that's a lot of money.
32:11And I'm like, okay, how how much better
32:15the Lord invites us to an eternal
32:17investment that will never spoil, that
32:19will never fade. And we have to keep
32:21that at the front of our mind. Like
32:23being generous in our giving is for our
32:25soul not to get too focused on this
32:28world.
32:28>> That's good. Philippians 4,
32:31uh, Paul says,
32:35"Not that I am speaking of being in
32:36need, for I have learned in whatever
32:38situation I am to be content. I know how
32:42to be brought low and I know how to
32:43abound in any and every circumstance.
32:45I've learned the secret of facing plenty
32:46and hunger, abundance in need. I can do
32:49all things through him who strengthens
32:51me. Would you say that contentment is
32:55really what cuts
32:57at the heart of covetousness is if we
33:00learn contentment then we actually will
33:03learn how to resist all forms of
33:05covetousness. It's the good fruit of
33:07fighting,
33:08>> you know. You know, it's
33:12>> you, And this is what I think. Everybody
33:14takes that verse and they're like, I ran
33:16a marathon. I can do all things through
33:18Christ who strengthens me. And Paul's
33:20writing that about contentment. That's
33:23the highest mountain.
33:24>> Yeah.
33:25>> I mean, you know, back in the day in the
33:271600, I mean, the Puritans were always
33:28writing about contentment because it was
33:31it was the picture of the Christian
33:34life. Psalm 1 is basically this image of
33:37this tree planted by a stream. Whatever
33:40he does prospers. And who is that man?
33:41Oh, he's the man who delights in the law
33:44of the Lord and on it he meditates day
33:45and night. You know, and that picture of
33:48just abundance. And our problem is in
33:52our flesh, we chase abundance in the
33:55stuff. Mhm.
33:56>> And he's saying, "Oh, no, no. The
33:58abundance is actually having the inner
34:01strength
34:02>> so that circumstantially you can have
34:05plenty
34:07>> or nothing." And yet you're
34:09>> abounding.
34:10>> Yeah.
34:10>> That's strength. And and and and then
34:13Paul admits and it's strength he doesn't
34:15have.
34:15>> Yeah.
34:16>> It's I can do all things through Christ
34:18who strengthens me. So So that's that
34:20stream from which we're drawing from is
34:23Christ. And and but I love that Paul
34:25says he learned it.
34:26>> It didn't descend upon him. You know, I
34:29think we think, "Oh, does this mean as
34:31soon as I become a Christian,
34:33>> I'm going to be immediately content and
34:35never struggle." No, it's something I
34:38learn. And tomorrow, my classroom may be
34:40different than today's classroom.
34:42>> And that whatever our classroom is is
34:44our life circumstances. And the Lord is
34:47saying, "Hey, I'm giving you these
34:50circumstances today. and I'm going to
34:52prove my strength to you in them.
34:56>> And and sometimes it means we have to be
34:58completely out of our own
34:59>> before we see that.
35:01>> And what's encouraging about that even
35:03is considering that Paul names
35:07covetousness
35:09as the sin that the law revealed in him
35:11that showed him that he actually wasn't
35:13righteous. And so for covetousness to be
35:16the thing he struggled with and for
35:18contentment to be the thing that he
35:19eventually learned means that none of us
35:22are actually without help and growth.
35:24You know what I'm saying? Like that the
35:25Lord is kind like that the Lord can
35:27actually bring us out and bring us to a
35:30place of a sufficiency in him that is
35:32altogether strange. You know, yeah. One
35:35thing that I also hear saying a lot,
35:37especially when you gave the analogy
35:40about the husband is a lot of things
35:42that we covet, we we we really just want
35:44security. We want safety. We want and
35:47but I think the enemy does, he perverts
35:49natural desire, like god-given desires
35:52and makes us kind of, you know, like,
35:54but what are some practical tools
35:56>> that we can use
35:58>> to to to to believe and to know that God
36:01is actually better, right? Because I
36:03think a lot of times it's it's it's hard
36:06>> to not meditate on what you don't have
36:09to to believe that God is withholding
36:12something from you. And so for the
36:13person saying, "Man, I hear what y'all
36:15saying, but like how how can I what are
36:18some practical tools to remind me that
36:20when I'm struggling that God is actually
36:22better?" And
36:24>> yeah, and I feel like our world got a
36:25lot bigger. But meaning you used to look
36:28at your neighbor neighbor's fence like
36:30the grass is greener. Well, now our
36:32neighbors are like 3,000 people on
36:34Instagram, right? It just got we can
36:37see,
36:38>> oh, look at her house.
36:39>> Oh, look at her yard. Oh, you know, we
36:42we have a much
36:44>> bigger garden.
36:45>> That's what Jackie was saying earlier
36:46when we was getting ready. She was like,
36:48yeah, Instagram to make it better. Like,
36:50skinny people making
36:52>> people who got bigger weight like want
36:54to be small. And
36:56>> you you [laughter] said something on
36:57that. I said you got, you know, skinny
37:00people that want to be like, you got
37:02vain people, you got skinny people, you
37:04got voluumptuous people, you got rich
37:07people, you got families, you got
37:08singles, like you got the married people
37:10covered in the single life, you got
37:12single people covered in the married
37:13life, you got it it's but it's all it's
37:16it really is a replicaation of of
37:18Genesis 3 is our eyes are seeing these
37:21things that are like really doing
37:22something to our eyes.
37:23>> And it's harder in this generation cuz
37:24everything that we don't have is so ever
37:26before us. Yes.
37:28>> Seems possible.
37:30>> Yes.
37:30>> Yes. It seems obtainable and you get
37:33irritated when you actually don't.
37:35>> Yes. I mean it cuz we actually have more
37:38than most generations you
37:41available. Like we can go turn on a
37:43faucet and get water. [laughter] I'm not
37:45walking
37:46>> a mile.
37:47>> That's true.
37:48>> To to a you know creek or to a well to
37:50get what? I mean, we have things fairly
37:53easy, but I so there's a verse that
37:55says, "Turn my eyes from worthless
37:57things and give me life in your ways."
37:59>> And I do think there has to be this
38:02turning our eyes.
38:03>> And um the Lord promises his power will
38:08be in us. He says, you know, um his
38:11divine power has uh oh, it's Peter
38:14>> granted to us all things we need for
38:17life and godliness, you know. And it
38:19says um
38:21We'll put that passage in the show. Um,
38:24>> but and so so his power is available,
38:28but I like to describe it like our cell
38:30phones.
38:32>> That little thing is powerful, but if it
38:34is not plugged in, it does not work. It
38:36just becomes a little box that just sits
38:38there and can't do anything. And so the
38:41creator of our phone created a means by
38:44which it receives power. And so the
38:47power for us as Christians, the Lord
38:50tells us, you know, hey, you have to
38:52abide in me. I mean, Jesus, right before
38:54he's getting ready to go to the cross
38:55and die, the last words he gives his
38:58disciples are, abide in me, and my words
39:01abide in you, and you will bear much
39:03fruit. And then at the end of that
39:05passage, he says, I have told you these
39:07things. Again, he's getting ready to go
39:08to the cross. I've told you these things
39:10so that my joy may be in you and my joy
39:13may be full. Jesus is getting ready to
39:15go suffer and die. And he cares about
39:17their joy. And he says, "The way you do
39:19it is you have to abide in me and my
39:21words abide in you." Because and he
39:23says, "Apart from me, you can do
39:25nothing. You're like a dry withered
39:26branch that can do nothing." And so I
39:30think so often what we'd spend our time
39:32on is chasing the thing we want.
39:35>> That's good. rather than chasing the
39:37contentment we want, which would
39:38actually happen
39:40>> by planting ourselves in the word,
39:42spending time with the Lord.
39:44>> It, you know, it's kind of the answer no
39:46one wants to hear.
39:47>> But that's the means by which he says,
39:49"My power is going to be,
39:51>> you know, unleashed in your life is to
39:54abide in me." That's where you get the
39:56nourishment.
39:56>> Yeah. Because the crazy thing is, you
39:58know, a lot of times, um, a friend was
40:01just telling me that he I have a friend
40:03who he's friends with a lot of rich
40:05people and he was saying they're some of
40:07the most unhappiest people ever. And I
40:09think a lot of times we think if we
40:11obtain possessions, we obtain wealth,
40:13we'll be [clears throat] be happy. But
40:14really, our our soldiers is going to
40:16continue to search and search and search
40:18because what we're really searching for
40:20is God. I think that's what the gospel
40:22tells us. And so we're just searching
40:24for all of these things. We're never
40:26going to be fulfilled. And I think
40:27that's when people hit hit the
40:29hopelessness
40:30role. It's like I've been searching and
40:32I'm still not satisfied because you were
40:36created for a person. You were created
40:38for God. And I think when we cover
40:41things, it just robs us of what we were
40:43really created for. These things are
40:45beautiful, but they're just add-ons. So
40:47>> I think that is such a good point,
40:48though. It's it's when someone finally
40:49gets to the pinnacle, they often crash
40:52and burn. Yeah.
40:53>> I mean, just the most famous people, you
40:55think you finally got all the hits, you
40:58finally got all the money you want
41:00>> and then some, it's not like they're
41:03sitting around saying, "Oh, this is the
41:04good life. It's great."
41:06>> Then they turn to drugs or they turn to
41:08alcohol. You know, they often go down a
41:10path because
41:11>> it still isn't soul satisfying. It it's
41:14fascinating to me that when I when I
41:16read that more millionaires and and more
41:19like more millionaires commit suicide
41:21than poor people. It's people who who
41:24chase and I'm not saying every person
41:26that's a millionaire chase money. But
41:28I'm just saying like a lot of people
41:30chase things feeling like they're going
41:32to be happy and then when they get there
41:33and even with the transgender thing I
41:35think a lot of times you know people
41:37they they covet wanting to be a man or
41:41wanting to be a woman and then when they
41:42actually get it they're still not
41:44satisfied because you're actually not
41:47finding the one you were created for.
41:49>> That's right.
41:49>> Yeah. It's um it's a lot like I I talk
41:53about this often but probably because
41:55it's been it's ministered to me. It's a
41:57lot like Hannah in in 1 Samuel, you
42:00know, like she is really grieved and sad
42:02and vexed because she doesn't have a
42:05child. And I'm not saying she covered it
42:06a child. I'm not saying that at all. But
42:08what I am saying is that for her to go
42:10into that temple, petition the Lord for
42:12the child and then immediately make a
42:14vow to give that child back has to
42:16communicate that she is satisfied in the
42:19Lord in such a way that she is willing
42:21to give away what she always wanted. And
42:23I think that is ultimately what even the
42:26exposure of covetousness should produce
42:29in us is a dependence and an intimacy
42:32and a trust in God's sufficiency that
42:35allows us to hold all the good gifts
42:37really loosely.
42:38>> And I think in my own life, I think the
42:41frustration is that you I think
42:43sometimes I would rather be able to take
42:46a scalpel, go in here, and just cut that
42:49thing out. You know what I'm saying?
42:50Like because we're talking about
42:51desires.
42:52>> Yeah. We're talking about feelings like
42:54I can go work out and get some muscle. I
42:56can, you know, wash my car to make it
42:59feel a little more important. I can do c
43:02but I can't change my heart. And so it
43:06puts us in this position where the
43:08mountain will only be moved if God
43:10strengthens us to move it, which circles
43:12back to your point, which is abiding.
43:14Feels like an unpractical practice, but
43:17it's actually the only way to change.
43:20[laughter]
43:20>> It's [clears throat] the only way to
43:21change. I got a question for both of
43:23y'all. When it comes to challenging our
43:26hearts, right, to not cover the things,
43:30not just possessions, but relationships,
43:32whatever. How much of it is our
43:35perspective
43:37>> and and and how we see things? Cuz I I
43:40think I cuz you cuz I I do think that at
43:46the root of our faith problem is is a
43:49sight problem. Yeah,
43:50>> we don't have faith cuz we don't see.
43:53>> And it's not that we don't necessarily
43:55see, we just don't see properly.
43:57>> And so like how much of it is like is
44:01and I know God changes our perspective,
44:03but I I think it's can also be very
44:05practical as well. And so what are some
44:08tools and some muscles that we can kind
44:10of build up to help change our
44:11perspectives to help us see?
44:14>> Does that make sense what I'm saying?
44:15>> Yes. Because I mean the invitation you
44:17know when you go back to Isaiah 55 he
44:19says come come to the waters you who
44:22have no money you but then the question
44:23is why are you spending your money on
44:26what is not bread
44:27>> and your life on what will not satisfy.
44:29>> Yeah.
44:30>> And so there's this perception problem.
44:32You think you're going to eat that and
44:33it's bread and it's not actually going
44:35to fulfill you.
44:36>> That's really good.
44:36>> You know and I think one of the biggest
44:38ways is is the the act of thanksgiving.
44:43you know um
44:45>> pray without see uh what's the verse
44:50some prayer and supplication with thanks
44:51>> it's first Thessalonians
44:53>> I don't know that
44:54>> um be
44:55>> be thankful uh
44:56>> rejoice always that's it rejoice always
44:59>> rejoice always
45:00>> again I say rejoice and I don't know
45:03>> rejoice always my brain somewhere
45:05>> Philippians 4 [laughter]
45:07we can go to rejoice always
45:09>> but everything should be u received with
45:12thanksgiving if it's know with prayer
45:14they just y'all are just rejoice always
45:15pray without [laughter] see no give
45:17thanks in all circumstances for this is
45:18Christ's will for you in Christ in
45:20Christ
45:20>> we need to do uh
45:22>> that's bad I need drills I don't know I
45:24don't know what scripture she's
45:25referring to Philippians 4 rejoice in
45:28the Lord always again I would say
45:29rejoice let your reasonness be known to
45:32everyone the Lord is at him do not be
45:33anxious about anything but in everything
45:34by prayer and supplication with
45:36thanksgiving let
45:37>> that's how bad I but I think it's first
45:39Thessalonians 5
45:40>> it is 1 Thessalonians 5 that's how bad
45:42this It's like what's that game they
45:44used to play in in I never played it.
45:46What the young people play
45:48>> like they do the um
45:49>> like Bible trivia.
45:50>> Yes. And I'm going to read it. It's
45:52first
45:54and keep this in. I want people to see
45:55us searching God's word.
45:57>> Oh goodness. Now we got to look better
45:59than this to know that it ain't it.
46:01[laughter]
46:01>> It says, "Give thanks for all
46:03circumstances for this is the will of
46:05God in Christ in you in Christ Jesus. Do
46:09not quench the spirit. Do not despise
46:12prophecies, but test everything. Hold
46:14fast to what is good.
46:16>> Just let that be it. Just just
46:19>> that's that's [laughter]
46:20>> but giving somewhere in the Bible
46:22thankfulness in the scriptures
46:24circumstances.
46:25>> Yes. because it's his will for us, you
46:28know, like that like to to to actually
46:31the I do think the act of giving thanks
46:34and um choosing it turns our eyes on
46:38onto what we've been given rather than
46:40what we're missing
46:42>> and you know to say Lord even as I wait
46:45on this thing I thank you for you know
46:49that I have food today to eat. I thank
46:51you that I have these kids who I might
46:54need a break from, but I thank you for
46:56them, you know, and to
46:57>> to to really spend time cuz what it
47:00does, it then is reminding me of what I
47:02do have.
47:03>> And I think what coveting does is it
47:04blinds us to what we have and it makes
47:07us hyperfocused on what we don't have.
47:10And I want to say this too. I honestly
47:12because I've thought about this in my
47:13own life, my fathering marriage and
47:17everything because I've always talk I
47:19talked to people like my dad. I think it
47:21it I think it blinds us with what we do
47:23have and it makes us focus on what other
47:25people have. But I think a tactic from
47:27the enemy is to shame us in the future.
47:30>> Yeah.
47:30>> Of what we missed out on. Because my dad
47:33used to always say, so me and my dad had
47:36a hard relationship. And when I got
47:39connected back with my dad, my dad would
47:41he just wanted to live his life. He was
47:43like, you know, I love my kids, but I
47:45want to do this and want to do that. And
47:47as we got older, he really wanted that
47:50relationship with me that he didn't that
47:51he didn't cultivate, that he didn't
47:53foster. And I think my rejection of him
47:56was a was shame for what he neglected.
47:59And I think, you know, all of the people
48:01that he chased, you know, all the
48:03relationships that he chased, all of the
48:05like the life that he coveted, like it
48:08it didn't really give him anything in
48:10return. And the life that he wanted now
48:12as a as a older man, he just didn't have
48:15it because he didn't he didn't put it
48:18where it needed to be. And I think that
48:20brought my dad a lot of shame to say,
48:22man, it reminded him of all the things
48:25that he neglected when he was younger.
48:27And I think the enemy wants us to be
48:30shamed shamed. Um, you know, and it's
48:33it's not it's not going to be rewarded
48:35in the future if we covet certain things
48:38in the present. And so I think just
48:39remembering that.
48:40>> Yeah.
48:40>> Yeah. That's good. And go ahead.
48:42>> And it just shows it's Satan's tool to
48:45destroy us.
48:47>> Yes.
48:47>> It's not, you know, he wants to steal,
48:51kill, and destroy the Christian.
48:54>> It's He's not playing nice.
48:56>> Yeah. That's right. And and so he it's
48:58you know you think oh so he's going to
49:00get me trapped in a big sin. Well how
49:02does he do that?
49:03>> It starts with coveting.
49:05>> It starts with an inner desire that then
49:09>> takes life. That's good.
49:11>> Yeah. That's good.
49:12>> I started thinking way more about
49:14thankfulness uh a couple months ago and
49:17I was just listening to some Ann Vos
49:20camp um content. What's the name of her
49:23book? A thousand
49:24>> a thousand gifts. It's good.
49:26>> And one thing I realized is that when
49:30you start to try to train your heart to
49:33be thankful, you realize how everything
49:36is actually a grace
49:39>> because things it's it's like you start
49:41to see all the miracles and it's a grace
49:43because you realize you don't actually
49:45deserve it. Thank you, Lord, for this
49:47bed. I was a sinner. I don't I don't
49:50deserve a comfortable rest. or thank you
49:53God that I got to work and my car didn't
49:56crash cuz people's cars are crashing all
49:59the time. Like there's actually so many
50:02things and I think that's the thing
50:04about what happened in the garden is
50:06that God was so profoundly generous but
50:09them being distracted by this one tree
50:11that they could not have actually kept
50:13them from seeing all the things that
50:15they should be thankful for. And I think
50:17the same thing is happening today where
50:18you don't realize that that conversation
50:20you had like when you laughed
50:22>> that was a grace. You know what I'm
50:24saying? Like the Lord just the Lord
50:26created this weird noise that comes out
50:29of your body so that you can have joy.
50:32So when you scrolled up and you had a
50:33laugh that was a grace. Thank you. You
50:35know what I'm saying? Like you really
50:36like you become a little more creative
50:38even in the things that you could be
50:40thankful for all by practicing
50:41thankfulness. So I don't know that's
50:43just been a really interesting thing for
50:44me to discover. For me, it's just
50:46pausing and just like
50:48>> cuz sometimes my kids can get on my
50:50nerve.
50:50>> Oh, yeah.
50:51>> They can really get on my nerve and then
50:52just and like
50:54>> in it. I mean, y'all are in it.
50:56>> Yeah. And just like and like and like
50:58just really pausing, meditating on the
51:01goodness of them
51:03>> and and God's blessing me with my
51:05children. And it's like, not only do I
51:08not only do I feel thankful, but then
51:10you start to realize, oh, I actually
51:12enjoy you. Mhm. [clears throat]
51:14>> Like I I I I enjoy my children when I'm
51:17just so not wrapped up in
51:20>> the inconvenience,
51:21>> every the inconvenience and everything
51:22that I'm I'm coveting, right? Like I
51:24it's just little things. I found myself
51:26doing that. It's just like okay. Yeah.
51:28Like like I I I hate
51:31>> going to bed at night cuz I'm a night
51:33owl. But I'm like I love the way my wife
51:35smells. I'm like Lord F. Like so she
51:38[laughter]
51:39>> I thought we were talking about the
51:40kids. That's what I'm saying. I'm just
51:42I'm just thinking about everything. Like
51:43she she'll tell you this. I have I have
51:45this thing with like smells,
51:47>> right?
51:47>> And like I just I be I sometimes I get
51:49into bed at night and I'll be like I
51:51love the way our bed smells cuz she just
51:54smells so good.
51:55>> Praise God. One thing I'm never going to
51:57be as stinky. [laughter]
51:59>> She She smells so good. It's like this
52:02is a gift.
52:03>> I love that.
52:03>> It's a gift.
52:04>> I love that you love that.
52:05>> It makes me sleep better.
52:07>> Praise God. I tell her when I'm at a
52:09hotel I can't sleep because I can't
52:12smell her. Oh, [laughter] should I get
52:14your kachie with my scents on it or
52:17something?
52:17>> I know. You could just you could get
52:19send him with a pillowcase.
52:20>> Apparently it's a bunch of different
52:23Louis Vuitton. I get excited when you
52:24take showers.
52:25>> But sometimes taking the time to be
52:26thankful.
52:27>> Thank you.
52:28>> For something small like that
52:31reminds you of how much you love the
52:33person. Whereas I'm sure as you go
52:35through the day sometimes it's easier to
52:37think of the things that are annoying
52:38you like we all like in our spot.
52:41>> Mhm.
52:42>> You know that got left like I am a
52:45constant cabinet opener. Like I leave
52:47them open and my poor husband has to
52:49come behind me and shut all the cabinets
52:50shut.
52:50>> It's the reverse with us.
52:52>> Okay. You know and so you know you could
52:54sit there and be like [snorts]
52:57>> if this person wasn't in my house my
52:59house would stay cleaner all the time or
53:00whatever. you I mean it it's easy to
53:02complain
53:04>> and so rather than to remember and be
53:06thankful.
53:07>> That's amazing. Yeah.
53:08>> What just came to my mind is is most
53:10likely more for me than anybody else but
53:13>> I got you. Um
53:16it's when Peter, it might be second
53:19Peter
53:21when he tells us to rejoice
53:25when we are faced with trials. I cannot
53:29find it. Yes. In this you rejoice,
53:32though now for a little while, if
53:34necessary, you have been grieved by
53:35various trials, so that the tested
53:37genuiness of your faith, more precious
53:39than gold that perishes, though it is
53:40tested by fire, may be found to result
53:42in praise and glory and honor at the
53:44revelation of Jesus Christ. I'm just
53:46saying this out loud. I I think there
53:49can be for me in this season there's
53:52been a covetousness of ease
53:55of just wanting a break from trials,
53:59from the Lord's discipline, from the
54:02pruning is just like, yeah, I just
54:05remember a time in my life where just
54:07Christianity wasn't as hard. And it's
54:09like, I get it. You want me to mature,
54:11but can we chill for a second? You know
54:14what I'm saying? But I think it makes
54:16sense why Peter is saying that you can
54:18rejoice because what is actually
54:21happening is that God is purifying you
54:24and changing you. And ain't that what
54:25you always asked for? Can God make me
54:27like you? God, I want to know you. God,
54:30I want to see you. God, I want to honor
54:31you. And he's answering your prayer just
54:33not in a way that you would have
54:34preferred or expected. But I think
54:36having our minds on what God is doing in
54:39the lack and what God is doing in the
54:42discipline and what God is doing in the
54:44trials actually allows us to praise him
54:46and rejoice in it. I'm more so talking
54:48to me than I am to anybody else. I just
54:50had to say that out loud
54:52>> so cuz covetousness is not just stuff.
54:55It could be seasons.
54:56>> Yeah.
54:57>> And that the season y'all are in with
55:00young kids. I mean, I just remember
55:03deeply desiring just to go to the
55:05bathroom by myself and just shut the
55:07door and just have a moment of quiet.
55:09Like, it's it's so hard. I was when you
55:11were reading that verse, I was reminded
55:12of the verse. It's like you will have
55:14much need of endurance.
55:16>> And I think I think I
55:19>> and I'm going to say this and I want to
55:21explain what I'm saying. I think I
55:22suddenly buy into a prosperity gospel
55:25sometimes. And what I mean by that is
55:28not um I would I would say a functional
55:31prosperity gospel. I'm like, well, it
55:33just should be easy, [laughter]
55:36>> you know, and when it gets hard, I start
55:38thinking,
55:40what am I doing wrong? That's my first
55:41question. What am I doing wrong? Rather
55:43than, oh yeah, the Christian life is
55:46described as a race, a battle, and child
55:48birth.
55:49>> Yeah, it is hard.
55:52>> Hard. And you know, but they're all
55:53hopeful. And I and I I think that's the
55:55thing. Every one of those things, you
55:57know, you fight a battle hoping for
55:58peace time. You know, you run a race
56:01hoping for the finish line and child
56:03birth is the hope of new life. And so,
56:06yeah, they're hard, but they're not run
56:08in vain. I mean, they're not labored in
56:11vain. You know, it's it's like a hopeful
56:13thing. And so I here the thing for me
56:16about this whole sin and even
56:18concentrating on what has changed for me
56:21in the years since I even started
56:23thinking about it was I used to think
56:25the problem was my circumstances. I
56:28can't battle that actually.
56:31>> I can't control what happens tomorrow.
56:33>> Everything about my life could change
56:34tomorrow. I don't know anything.
56:36>> Yeah. But what I can control is I I can
56:41choose to to know the Lord to abide. He
56:44invites me to do that. So so those
56:46things I can beg him to change my heart
56:49as for whatever I face. Will you
56:51strengthen me for what tomorrow brings?
56:54That's what we can do. And so I was
56:56spending a lot of energy in the wrong
56:57place. This is actually very convicting
56:59for me cuz I didn't tell you this but I
57:01a couple days ago I just ministered in
57:03Chicago, my hometown where we moved from
57:06and I rolled past our old apartment at
57:07High Park and I was just I traveled with
57:10one of my young guys and I was just
57:12telling him just just kind of ranting
57:14about how easy our life was. We had one
57:16child. We It wasn't
57:18>> what we thought was hard wasn't hard.
57:20>> Yeah. Yeah.
57:22>> But it it was way easier then.
57:23significantly.
57:24>> You know, one child, we didn't have as
57:26much slander on social media. I mean,
57:30you know, we have more businesses, so
57:31it's more responsibility, all of the
57:33things. But I think everything that the
57:35Lord is bringing us too, like in 5
57:37years, I want to have so much probably
57:39to give to the world because of what
57:40he's allowing me to go through
57:42>> now. And I think I got to just think
57:44about that cuz I've been thinking about
57:45that the last couple days. I'm like,
57:46man,
57:47>> that one child life
57:49>> covered in that season.
57:50>> Covered in that season. But I'll end
57:52with that. I was reading, I think I said
57:55this in another podcast, this Elizabeth
57:56Elliott book
57:58>> where she was talking about her
58:00widowhood,
58:01>> the second one, cuz her first husband
58:03was a missionary that was killed and
58:05then her second husband was died from
58:07cancer. And so she's been widowed twice.
58:10And she said what she learned in her sec
58:12second wid widowhood that was different
58:14than the first was that it was her
58:16assignment where she was like what
58:19brought her contentment. It doesn't mean
58:21she didn't grieve but she realized that
58:23the place that she was in was the
58:26assignment for her.
58:27>> And so I think that also is the word is
58:29like God's providence is something that
58:32we have to trust especially when we
58:34understand that he's not just sovereign.
58:37He has purpose with all that he allows
58:39and that purpose is always for our good.
58:41So the place in which we are in, we are
58:43in Atlanta, you are in Charlotte, we
58:46have four kids, you have the three that
58:48are out and about doing their thing. We
58:50all have our different burdens, our
58:52different cares, our different issues,
58:53but that place is the assignment. And so
58:56I think us finding God in it is what
58:58he's called us to do.
58:59>> Way to bring it home, pretty face.
59:00>> That's so good.
59:01>> The Envy of Eve. We going to have this
59:03book in the show notes. She wrote this
59:05thing a decade ago. But run them numbers
59:07up because you y'all need to do some
59:09Bible studies. I don't care you a man or
59:11a dog. It might be saying about Eve, but
59:14I think every human being [laughter] and
59:16[snorts] animal needs it.
59:16>> No, real talk is a good book.
59:18>> No, it's excellent.
59:19>> Buy it. If you don't, you'll lame. So,
59:20thank you. Thank you, Melissa. I love
59:23you. Thank you for doing the work,
59:24writing all this down. We also did an
59:26Ephesians Bible study. We might as well
59:27put that in the show notes, too, that
59:29y'all can check out and [music] all the
59:30things. So, appreciate you. So good
59:32being here. Peace. Bye, y'all.

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