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Lenin: State and revolution - Sue Caldwell — Transcript

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0:00well welcome everyone to this session
0:02which is on Lenin state and revolution
0:06speaker for this session is sue Caldwell
0:09who's a teacher and a leading member of
0:12the Socialist Workers Party so I want to
0:17start off just talking a little bit
0:18about just just very briefly about Lenin
0:22as being the what Trotsky referred to as
0:26the author of the Russian Revolution the
0:29leader of the Bolshevik Party who fought
0:33the Bolshevik Party and theoretically
0:36armed it for intervening in the
0:40revolutionary struggle to place the
0:43working class in power in October in
0:481917 through the organization of the
0:51Soviet ooh the workers councils and from
0:54slogan bread land and peace all power to
0:57the Soviets and as a result of that role
1:02historic role that led him played he has
1:05been vilified not only throughout his
1:09life but also you know you often find
1:11that a lot of people who are very fine
1:13throughout their lives something
1:14everybody decides they're really nice
1:15once they're did it but to the ruling
1:18class it's very important to continue to
1:20this day
1:21to vilify Lenin because he was the
1:23person that really threw the Bolshevik
1:25Party in his leadership at the Bolshevik
1:27Party represented a fundamental
1:30challenge to the whole way in which
1:32societies organized the principles of
1:35capitalism of parliamentary democracy of
1:39this being the way the world is and so
1:41on was fundamentally challenged and a
1:44whole different way of running society
1:47was posed through what the but what
1:50Lenin and the and the Bolsheviks did and
1:54so you find him vilified not only by the
1:58ruling class but also by huge sections
2:01of the left for whom the best they can
2:04think of when it comes to a different
2:06way of organizing society is really that
2:08we put a different set of people into
2:11Parliament than the
2:12current set of people we've got now
2:13people with a different set of
2:15principles but who fundamentally do not
2:18want to change the whole way in which
2:21society runs or at least do not have an
2:24understanding of how that change could
2:26come about and it's important for them
2:27as well to distance themselves from
2:29Lenin and to try to say that Lenin
2:32represents it's something that's he
2:34really didn't the most common narrative
2:35which we'll come across is that Lenin
2:38was a would-be dictator that he
2:41organized a small minority of people in
2:43the Bolshevik to stage a coup that
2:45through this thick dictatorial strategy
2:49it was inevitable that somebody like
2:51Stalin could just pick up the reins and
2:54follow on where he left off and there
2:56was a smooth and seamless transition
2:58between Lenin and Stalin and all manner
3:02of academic study devoted to the Russian
3:05Revolution that you will come across
3:07will feed you one version or another of
3:10that of that narrative and one of the
3:14things about studying the state and
3:17revolution and the reason this meeting
3:19is called Lenin of state and revolution
3:20is because one of the most important
3:22books that Lenin wrote was this little
3:26pamphlet called the state of revolution
3:28and I do thoroughly recommend that
3:30anybody who hasn't read it to buy it and
3:33read it and anybody who lasts ready
3:36quite a long time ago like myself to
3:38read it again because it really that is
3:40a fantastic text to go back and reread
3:43not only does it seem fresh and relevant
3:45for today but it is enormous ly clear on
3:49what the tasks on on what the tasks
3:54presenting the revolution are and one of
3:56the things that really comes through as
3:59you're reading it is the enormous faith
4:02in the ability of the masses of ordinary
4:06workers to run the society for
4:08themselves that enormous faith that you
4:11don't find in so many other places who
4:13say electors will run it for you
4:16you need people who know better than you
4:18who are better educated than you who are
4:20more experienced than you to tell you
4:22what to do
4:23the experts to do this that and the
4:26other and what comes through with
4:28reading with reading Lenin is it is the
4:32probability of his deep belief in
4:35ordinary workers to be able to run
4:37society to be able to run society for
4:40themselves and it's utter disdain for
4:42people who want to limit that creative
4:45potential of the working class and want
4:47to limit the achievements that workers
4:49can actually achieve when they when they
4:54fight back so Staton revolution really
4:56was started really as a polemic against
4:59the reformist i'll just explain a little
5:01bit about what I mean by the reformists
5:03I mean people who believe that you could
5:06take over the ready-made machineries of
5:10state in various forms in particular the
5:13Parliament which through which you could
5:15then run things like the army the police
5:18and so on and so forth and that through
5:21that you could gradually transform
5:24capitalist society into a fairer society
5:28now the people who ended up following
5:31this path actually would call themselves
5:35quite often Marxists they were cool
5:38themselves they never caught him selves
5:40followers of Marx even they would call
5:42themselves revolutionaries the the
5:45people that Lenin had his sharpest
5:47polemic with were the people organized
5:52in the German Social Democratic Party at
5:53the time social democratic was a was a
5:55phrase associated with revolutionary
5:58organizations a man called karpowski who
6:01professed himself to be a follower of a
6:04follower of Marx and in the course of
6:08the Russian Revolution that started with
6:10the arthrosis are in February 1917 and
6:14and its replacement by a provisional
6:17government and a period of dual power
6:19where workers councils were also
6:22operating through to the transfer of
6:26power to the workers councils with the
6:29poultry party at its head throughout
6:32that period
6:32Lenin was battling against people who
6:35were influenced by that
6:37idea that we didn't that that we could
6:39somehow once we've got this
6:41parliamentary democracy that really was
6:44the way forward and we could take
6:45control of that Parliament and through
6:47that Parliament we can in a we can
6:51control society so so then it started
6:54writing and it was actually published
6:56during I think July August 1917 so in
7:01other words as the revolutionary process
7:03was unfolding this this this work came
7:06out and in order to really take on the
7:09arguments because they were coming from
7:11people who call themselves Marxists what
7:13Lenin decided to do was to go back and
7:16look at what Marx and Engels actually
7:18runs about the state in order to expose
7:21the way in which these people who are
7:23following this reformist path actually
7:26were deviating completely from the
7:29revolutionary essence of what Karl Marx
7:31of what Karl Marx actually said and that
7:34was what he and that was what he said
7:37him it had set himself out to do in the
7:40state and revolution and I'm going to
7:41just kind of summarize the
7:43contradictions that they the differences
7:46in the two positions by reading you a
7:48quote that actually comes from a
7:49pamphlet that Lenin wrote a little bit
7:51later in 1922 but it I think nicely sums
7:56up the differences between the two
7:58approaches to how do you fundamentally
8:01change society in the interests of the
8:04working class and so then him writes
8:07this you said Marx says quote between
8:12capitalist and communist society there
8:14lies the period of the revolutionary
8:15transformation of the warning to the
8:17other corresponding to this is a period
8:20of political transition in which the
8:22states can be nothing but the
8:23revolutionary dictatorship of the
8:26proletariat
8:26that's Marx's position and then he says
8:29given our experiences over the last
8:31sorry he's he's um he's quoting letting
8:34is quoting from this is a quote from
8:36counts key so this is what counts key
8:38says given our experiences over the last
8:40few years we can now alter this passage
8:43on the kind of government we want and
8:44say quote between the period of a purely
8:47bourgeois state and a purely
8:48areum's day there lies a period of the
8:51transformation of one into the other
8:52corresponding to this there is also a
8:54period of political transition in which
8:57the state would usually take the form of
8:58accommodation government so you can see
9:01the complete difference that were marked
9:03about how do you transition from from
9:06from capitalism to communism you need
9:09the revolutionary dictatorship of the
9:11proletariat in other words you need to
9:13take on the question of the state and
9:16understand and Moo and and get rid of a
9:20state that that operates in the
9:23interests of the root of the ruling
9:24class and replace it with a state that
9:26operates in the ruling class minority
9:29and replace it with the state operates
9:31in the interest of the working-class
9:32majority by contrast the idea that if we
9:36have some kind of government that slowly
9:39we can transfer we can transform
9:41capitalism into into into communism so
9:45so to take on this this kind of attitude
9:49then he went back to Marx and Engels
9:51writings on the state and he talked to
9:54each talented actually by looking at
9:56angles now when we in the swp talk about
9:59angles we often talk about the classic
10:01book that he wrote the origins of the
10:03family private property in the States
10:04and we often do that in the context of
10:06talking about explaining women's where
10:08women's oppression came from with the
10:09rise of class society but it's important
10:12to remember the and the state bids on
10:13that as well because the development of
10:15the split of society into classes is
10:19crucial for the development of the state
10:23as well so angle says the state is a
10:26product of society at a certain stage in
10:28development it is the admission that
10:30this society has become entangled in an
10:32insoluble contradiction with itself that
10:35it just split into irreconcilable
10:37opposites which it is powerless -
10:39powerless to conjure away in other words
10:42the existence of a state is an
10:45expression of the irreconcilability of
10:48classes and because of two classes with
10:50irreconcilable interests acting in
10:54opposition to each other it's necessary
10:57to have some kind of power which
10:59seemingly stands above the classes and
11:02imposes an order on society and Lenin
11:05deliberately puts the word order in
11:07inverted commas and later when he talks
11:09about the dictatorship of the
11:10proletariat and the transition to
11:12communism he gets rid of the inverted
11:14commas because he said this is really
11:15what order in society should look like
11:17whereas the order that you get within
11:20within a capitalist society actually
11:23means the continuing extranet
11:24exploitation of of the working-class by
11:28the by the route by Pilate by the ruling
11:32class so so so whereas for marx and
11:38engels the state was the expression of
11:41the irreconcilability of glasses for the
11:44reformists the you know and this would
11:47apply to people in in the labour party
11:50today and parties like that around the
11:54world of syriza and so on that for the
11:58reformists the state is an organ or
12:00organ for the reconciliation of classes
12:03in other words by using the state we
12:05will somehow stop its excesses stop this
12:09the horrible things that it does to
12:11working-class people use the state to
12:13look after working-class people better
12:16whereas what Lenin reiterated was that
12:21what Marx said was that if it was
12:23possible to reconcile the classes then
12:26actually you wouldn't need you wouldn't
12:29need a state in the first place because
12:31the state is an instrument of class
12:34ruling there for the suppression of one
12:37class by another and Lenin asked what
12:42power does that state consisting how
12:44does it exercise this power and there's
12:47a famous passage where he talks about
12:49the state is consisting in what he
12:54called special bodies of armed men and
12:56of course in his day it would even more
12:57be men than it then if it would be now
13:02who has prisons etc at their disposal
13:07in other words armed parties inform us
13:09the judiciary
13:10the army the police force and so on
13:14and he also talks about this being
13:16backed up by a whole bureaucratic state
13:19apparatus not just through the civil
13:21service but also fully a bit the
13:23bureaucratic apparatuses of a parliament
13:27and so on and he talks about this
13:29state's this combination of the
13:31bureaucratic state apparatus and the and
13:34the organs are forced through the
13:36standing army being perfected by the
13:38ruling class as the ruling class emerged
13:40from a series of poor to our revolutions
13:43of fights against um monarchies and
13:45feudal aristocracy and so on and a whole
13:49series of class struggle perfecting
13:50these organs of the state as an
13:52instrument of as an instrument of class
13:57rule and it's interesting when you read
14:01through some of that stuff about how
14:03modern some of the some of the writings
14:07feel because remember he's but you know
14:09he's putting this out in the midst of a
14:10revolutionary situation where you're
14:12overthrowing the Tsar and you have a
14:14provisional government and a whole
14:16number of people who call themselves
14:17revolution Marxist they could be going
14:19to and one of the organizations was
14:21caught was the Mensheviks which was a
14:23split in the Russian social democratic
14:25party from which the Bolsheviks emerged
14:27the word Bolshevik just means majority
14:29because they won the particular argument
14:30over that splits about the nature of the
14:33party but the Mensheviks who can you
14:36know allegedly from this revolutionary
14:37Marxist tradition people who called
14:39themselves socialist revolutionaries
14:41that was the name of their party so you
14:42think oh they must be pretty
14:44revolutionary but leaders of these
14:46parties going into the parliament and
14:48then going oh actually this is quite
14:51good we've got this Parliament now maybe
14:54we should just come down a little bit
14:55maybe we should start to think about how
14:58we can start to within these organs or
15:01organize society and that was both
15:05inside the Soviets as they were and
15:07inside the inside the provisional
15:09government was an argument with the
15:10Bolsheviks inside the Soviets to get
15:12leadership of them and to argue that
15:14actually means to completely smash this
15:16state and there's a interesting little
15:18piece here where he writes some in the
15:21government itself a sort of permanent
15:23drill the quadrille is a kind of dance a
15:25sort of permanent quadrille is going on
15:27in order that on the one hand as many
15:29socialist revolutionaries and mensheviks
15:31as possible may in turn get near the pie
15:34the lucrative and honourable posts and
15:36that's on the other hand the attention
15:38of the people may be engaged meanwhile
15:41it is in the chancelleries and general
15:43staffs that they do the business of the
15:45state so in other words he's talking
15:47about already in this just not newly
15:49developing parliamentary democracy the
15:52way in which that whole idea of the
15:53careerist politician of people who
15:56suddenly start to think oh maybe i can
15:58you know you can see somebody's Labour
15:59MPs can't you you know oh maybe if I
16:01test it then I think according now maybe
16:04I can get myself a nice little job in
16:05the future
16:06you know maybe things would be quite
16:08cozy for me making that kind of decision
16:09with themselves you know and all these
16:11stuff now about that you hear now why do
16:13people like call this too much because
16:14he's precisely not like that you know
16:16they don't see us him as somebody who
16:18just sits chattering away in Parliament
16:19where the real business the things that
16:21really matter in the outside world are
16:23happening in the bank simply business in
16:26the courts been decided by the police
16:29being decided by the gym rules which
16:31actually Parliament has very very little
16:33control over whatsoever but they sit
16:35there chattering amongst themselves
16:36convincing themselves they're really
16:37important trying to get all these nice
16:39jobs there's a phrase that he uses about
16:42people getting comparatively comfortable
16:44quiet and respectable jobs raising their
16:47heads above the above the people all the
16:50talk a little bit later on about that
16:52whole thing about the the idea of
16:54parliamentary democracy and how
16:55democratic it is and what what real
16:59democracy might look like and he really
17:02aims his fire at the reformist for
17:03saying that this is the best that they
17:05can get is to have an elected parliament
17:07and use the state and so on but of
17:09course it's not just through the up
17:11through those offices that the state
17:13operates it's also through the standing
17:17army the prisons the judges and so on
17:20and so forth for anybody who was at the
17:22opening rally on Thursday and listened
17:24to the stories of the way in which the
17:26South Yorkshire police behaved in a
17:28whole number of different situations I
17:30mean wasn't it astonishing the
17:31connection you know from all Greaves to
17:33Hillsborough to the robbery
17:34twelve you know you can't really see the
17:36way in which that question of the forces
17:39of the state the real force of the state
17:41because you know you know Lenin and Marx
17:45of angles talked about that the the the
17:47state operating both a level off of
17:49physical force but also through also
17:53through the level of ideas and consent
17:55and that whole idea that you know you've
17:57got a vote now you're okay really you
17:59know this is how you can control and
18:01have a say in society but when it needs
18:03be that physical force will come out I
18:05mean I don't know how many people
18:06remember I actually can't remember the
18:08name or whether the name was ever made
18:09public but the general that said when
18:12Corbin was elected leader of the Labour
18:13Party and they thought that he might
18:15stand up and get rid of trier and you
18:17know unfortunately that was a pressure
18:19that he that he didn't resist
18:21unfortunately maybe if things change in
18:22the future that might change but you
18:25know you remember the Jim Board you say
18:26well if that happens we're gonna where
18:27we are we're not going to obey that
18:29we're gonna be in today
18:29you know and nobody went oh this is
18:31terrible this general is talking about
18:32mutinies just kind of accepted that the
18:35gym has a right to say this you know
18:36there's something about you know the
18:38army has been one of those institutions
18:41of being one of those key institutions
18:45of of state of state power and another
18:50thing that learning talks about as he
18:51talks about how as the Revolution goes
18:54through different stages
18:55that's workers start to see through some
19:00of the things that they're reformist
19:02leaders were saying to them and he talks
19:05about how you know you can replace one
19:07lot of leaders and you you get these
19:09people in power the provisional
19:11government and so on and people start to
19:12see through it and therefore workers
19:14start to take more radical measures to
19:16take matters into their own hands and
19:18the more they do that the more the
19:20repressive power of the state comes down
19:21on them and as I was reading it it kind
19:23of made me think about Egypt's you know
19:24about how when they came out into the
19:26squares and they got rid of Mubarak and
19:29then they had the election and they got
19:30some more see yeah and then and then and
19:36then Morsi didn't deliver that he you
19:38know and people started to get this
19:39remember that those mass protests
19:41against Morsi actually what was the
19:43outcome of that was the was the
19:45repressive power of the state was the
19:46army coming to center stage and and
19:48since then we've seen mass repression
19:50and we've seen not only the the people
19:53in the Muslim brother Muslim
19:55Brotherhood's been viciously beaten
19:57locked up murdered tortured and so on
19:59but also that same treatment being meted
20:02out to revolutionary socialist leaders
20:05and groups inside Egypt so that idea
20:08that really The Closer that that that
20:10people get to beginning to see through
20:12the way in which society really operates
20:14and what really needs to be done in
20:16order to fundamentally change society
20:17that that brutal state apparatus gets
20:20mobilized gets mobilized in defense of
20:23the of the ruling class you know it
20:26really rings so true it really rings so
20:30true for today so so so what's the
20:34solution in that kind of has to be a way
20:36forward for this because otherwise we
20:38get left with the choice between either
20:40our reformist leaders or leaders get
20:44bought off and they get sucked into you
20:46know this idea that we can just run the
20:47system and get a few nice crusty jobs
20:49for ourselves or we become a radical and
20:52then they turn the army honors and
20:54you'll get smashed in tortured and
20:55beaten up so neither of those are really
20:56very nice conservative so there has to
20:59be some kind of solution to that now
21:02when Marx talked about that one of the
21:04one of the things that Marx bid after
21:05analyzing the state yeah and and and he
21:08thought this was so important that he
21:10went back and made an addition to the
21:13Communist Manifesto for a next front for
21:15its next addition to include this Synod
21:18because he learned not from the fact
21:20that he simply sat in an ivory tower for
21:22wonder about estate wonder what a
21:24difference or fate might be what could
21:25we do but he actually looked at what the
21:28workers in the Paris Commune did in 1871
21:31and he learned from what the workers in
21:33the Paris Commune did in 1871 because
21:35the workers there rose up and in the
21:38process of rising up they started to
21:40form their own governments this
21:42awareness work commune came from and
21:44they had various
21:47decrees that they put into place for
21:50running Paris
21:51in a different kind of way and one of
21:53the first things that they did was that
21:55they abolished the standing army and
21:58they replaced it with the arms working
22:01class but they also did a number of
22:03things they were they elected officials
22:06to positions to represent them in
22:08committees they said the number of
22:11things have to happen with these
22:12officials number one they have to not
22:15get paid more than the average wage of
22:17the workers that they represent number
22:19two they have to be instantly recordable
22:22how fantastic to be able to do that with
22:25the people that you represent I wonder
22:27how long engineer Eagle would last yes
22:29she was instantly recordable by her
22:32constituency for her actions and so this
22:35is the what this is what began to happen
22:38that workers organized themselves around
22:40the areas in which they worked and lived
22:43but they did it in ways that meant that
22:45they could have direct control over the
22:48people that they elected to represent
22:50them not only that but they also talked
22:52about the the commune being a working
22:57not a legislative body so it wasn't just
22:59a body that passed laws and they left it
23:01up to somebody else to go out and
23:03implement those laws in other words it
23:04wasn't a talking shop it had to be a
23:07doing shop it had to be the people the
23:09people who were directly electable by
23:12the working class that accountable to
23:14the working class also had to be the
23:16people that went out and actually
23:18physically implemented the results of
23:20what they had decided to do so it was no
23:23good sitting and chatting about
23:24something and I'm thinking whenever I
23:25would leave that for another six months
23:27if I didn't actually have six months in
23:29the end it was a very short-lived
23:30experiment and one of the lessons that
23:32Marx drew from that was that through
23:35these much more democratic methods of
23:38organizing the workers could begin to
23:40pose a counter a different sort of state
23:44to the one that had previously existed
23:47and the lesson that he drew from it was
23:49ultimately defeated and he listened that
23:52he drew from that was that he said one
23:57thing especially is proved by the comp
23:59by the communist this that the working
24:01class cannot simply lay hold of the
24:04ready
24:04state and and wield it for its own
24:07purposes and he talked about how the
24:09bureaucratic military machine had to be
24:11smashed and he said this is the
24:13preliminary condition for every real
24:16peoples for every reals
24:19People's Revolution and Lenin when he
24:22talks about that in state and Revolution
24:24talks about how that really
24:26revolutionary core of Marxism is what is
24:29absolutely forgotten and missed and
24:33grossed over he says by people who claim
24:36to be in the Marxist tradition but
24:38aren't themselves truly revolutionary
24:40and if you study academic Marxism this
24:43bit of Marxism will be something that
24:44isn't really emphasized they might go
24:46all Marx Jerry was quite good at
24:48analyzing how capitalism worked and he
24:51had some quite good things to say about
24:52this that and the other but let's just
24:54keep quiet about it the bit where he
24:56says but you've got to smash the
24:57bourgeois state and replaced it with the
24:59revolutionary dictatorship of the
25:00proletariat in other words rip the
25:02revolutionary guts out of what Marx what
25:07Marx actually of what Marx actually
25:11actually says so the commune replaced
25:14the standing army with the armed people
25:17directly elected workers and workers
25:20wages wages directly recallable a work
25:22in not a legislative body not a talking
25:24shop and then he says this he says thus
25:26thus the commune appears to have
25:29replaced the smash state machine only
25:31and he puts this in inverted commas it's
25:34been a bit ironic they're only by
25:35further democracy the abolition of the
25:37of the standing army all all officials
25:41to be elected to the subjects recall
25:43recall and so in other words what he's
25:45arguing is that the dictatorship of the
25:47proletariat
25:48you know people hear this word
25:50dictatorship but you think oh that must
25:51be something that's imposed by a tiny
25:53group of people on everybody else the
25:55dictatorship of the proletariat is
25:57actually a much fuller democracy than
26:00bourgeois parliamentary their bourgeois
26:04parliamentary democracy and I just want
26:06to come back to another quote about
26:11bourgeois democracy and this is this is
26:13Lenin again this is 30 different boxes
26:15this is in quoting from another book
26:17Ray's aren't getting us cows again um
26:18boys want democracy although the great
26:20historical advance in comparison with
26:22medievalism always remains that under
26:24capitalism is bound to remain restricted
26:26truncated false and hypocritical a
26:29paradise for the rich and a snare
26:30intersection for the exploited for the
26:32poor deceit violence corruption
26:34mendacity hypocrisy and oppression of
26:37the poor is hidden beneath the civilized
26:39polished and perfumed exterior of modern
26:42bourgeois democracy what a brilliant
26:44description of what actually happens in
26:46Parliament the perfume interior
26:48Parliament well they all sit around and
26:50chatter and what actually happens is
26:51they're passing these laws that restrict
26:54us you know that ruin our lives and and
26:59so on and so on and so forth
27:02and so he counters this Democratic
27:05dictatorship of the proletariat
27:10tu-tu-tu-tu-tu-tu that - that democracy
27:13okay so and that's all and you know when
27:18you think about things like the Panama
27:19papers the Chilcott report how long's
27:21the Chilkoot report taken so blooming
27:23right for the sake and how many million
27:25words it's not something that's designed
27:26for workers to react to immediately is
27:28it it's like several million words long
27:30or something who's gonna have time to
27:32read that when you got to go to work
27:33every day you know that the sea and the
27:35apocrypha and all the rest of it the way
27:37that the whole thing really really think
27:39something that just so rings true -
27:41rings true today
27:42um so Lennon's fervor contribution was
27:45to talk about and and you know and then
27:48he made a contribution not only in
27:49clarifying the ideas of Martin Engels
27:51but actually on the question of the
27:52state in order to smash that idea that
27:54thought that bourgeois democracy was the
27:56best that we could hope for but he also
27:59talked about the means by which that can
28:02the vehicle through which that can
28:04happen because he was engaged in that
28:06process himself through the October
28:08Revolution and that's where he talked
28:10about the role of the workers councils
28:13the role of the Soviets and that's why
28:14the slogan all power to the Soviets was
28:17so important because it meant completely
28:19brushing aside getting rid of
28:21dismantling the old state and replacing
28:23it
28:24a state that was run by the the was run
28:29by the was was run by the workers
28:32councils and and of course he'd never
28:35got to completely finish the writing of
28:38the state and revolution properly
28:40because as he said in his post proved to
28:41the first edition this pamphlet was
28:43written in August in September 1917 I'd
28:46already drawn up the fam for the next
28:47chapter which was going to be called the
28:49experience at the Russian Revolution but
28:51he says I was interrupted by a political
28:53crisis the eve of the October Revolution
28:54of 1917 such a not a sudden interruption
28:58can only be welcomed it's more present
29:00and useful to go through the experience
29:02of the revolution than to write about it
29:04and so there he was then saying okay
29:07we've got his workers councils sorry
29:08guys I can't write about anymore gotta
29:10go and actually do this and organize the
29:12unorganized the October Revolution and
29:15one of the things that he really talks
29:16about throughout it is about how its
29:20opening up a period of creativity by
29:22which all workers will be able to
29:24participate in the organs of government
29:27but he's very clear that it is still an
29:30instrument of class rule that just as
29:32the state under capitalism is an
29:33instrument of price rule by the minority
29:36but of the majority in the interests of
29:38the minority that actually the
29:40Democratic dictatorship of the
29:41proletariat is an instrument of class
29:43rule but this time it's a class rule
29:46offered by the majority against the
29:49minority in other words we have to
29:51continue to oppress and to keep down the
29:54bourgeois counter the boys were
29:58counter-revolution don't expect they're
30:00all just going to crumble they're all
30:01just and are just going to go off and
30:02crown their beds and disappear I'll know
30:04we lost no we are going to go and
30:06organize they're gonna come back for you
30:08we've got to be prepared for that and
30:09we've got to think about how do we begin
30:11to organize society when workers haven't
30:14really gone through that whole process
30:15of how do we change ourselves and how do
30:18we how come you organize society better
30:20and so on and therefore the state
30:22continues to be a weapon of class rule
30:25but it because the class rule for us
30:26against um but it's a class rule for us
30:31against against them
30:35which says alongside an immense
30:37expansion of democracy which for the
30:39first time becomes democracy for the
30:41poor democracy for the people and not
30:43democracy for the moneybags I love that
30:44democracy for the moneybags the
30:46dictatorship of the proletariat brings
30:48about the series of restrictions on the
30:50freedom of the oppressors the exploiters
30:52and the capitalists he says we must
30:54suppress them
30:55in order to free humanity from wage
30:57slavery their resistance must be crushed
30:59by their resistance must be crushed by
31:02force and it's clear that that is part
31:03of the transition that the part of the
31:07transition to socialism but it does go
31:09on to say that the more that democracy
31:12exists within society real democracy the
31:14less you begin to need the the the the
31:19state and the more the state withers
31:21away I'm going to skip the quotes about
31:23him talking about the state moving away
31:24because I'm kind of running about run
31:26out of time but perhaps other people can
31:29can fill that in because I just want to
31:32finish on two points really I want to
31:33talk about a little bit about how
31:36relevant that is for today and a little
31:39bit about what that means for the party
31:41because it's clear today isn't it that
31:44the state really is an instrument of
31:47class rule that though that whole layer
31:50of army gym rules cabinet ministers
31:52judges bankers and owners of big
31:56industry and so on really are they
31:59really are in it together
32:01the game starts they go to the same
32:02public schools they're all related to
32:05each other they marry each other
32:07there I don't know if people saw the
32:09other day the thing about sub-county
32:10tony blair is going to be the Godfather
32:13to Rupert Murdoch's daughter you know
32:15come on you know this is they know you
32:17look at these connections and this is
32:19the state really is a instrument of
32:23class rule and again if you look at the
32:25question of Greece I know this is where
32:27the question is being posed most sharply
32:29isn't it about why is the syriza
32:32government not able to to stand up to
32:36the European European Central Bank and
32:40again that whole process that by that of
32:43the way in which as they ask they don't
32:44stand up and as people start to realize
32:47that there's some
32:48wrong and start to come out on strike
32:50going demonstrations start to radicalize
32:52although they haven't broken with the
32:54idea that the state can still be used in
32:56some way but they almost starting to
32:58question it and they are starting to
33:00fight back on a big scale than actually
33:02the repression increases so you get the
33:05you know you get the army being scenting
33:07by the same user government to attack
33:09immigrant camps you get the army being
33:11sent in by the syriza government to
33:13break up to break up demonstrations and
33:17of course you've also got to tie-up
33:18between the police and Golden Dawn
33:20within that although thanks to mass
33:23movements from below that have been
33:24organized by socialists and song within
33:27Golden Dawn they are able to win some of
33:29that back so that pressure is always
33:30going on there and you can also see the
33:32way that ties up with the banks in the
33:34way that you know food a financial
33:35pressure exerted on Greece that that has
33:38that has put the government under
33:40pressure to to contribute to conform so
33:46you continue to see the wrong with that
33:48the state plays in that way happening
33:50today I just want to finish really with
33:53what the what the lessons are in terms
33:56of the party because in any situation of
33:59the crisis workers will fight and to be
34:02honest various regardless of whether any
34:03kind of party is there or not that is
34:06the nature of going right back to the
34:08beginning of what I quoted from Marx and
34:10Engels the irreconcilability of the
34:12classes all right there will be class
34:14trouble there will be crises and
34:16sometimes that class struggle will be
34:19very very sharp but people will go into
34:21that struggle with all sorts of
34:22contradictory ideas inside their heads
34:25you know look at Egypt you can be in the
34:26square feeling your power but then you
34:29can say the army is the friend of the
34:30people you know you can go into it with
34:32all the sorts of confused ideas and what
34:35reformist parties are completely unable
34:38to do is to change those ideas because
34:42challenging those ideas means
34:43challenging the state changing the type
34:45of state that exists in society and how
34:48we're going to and how we're going to
34:50and talk about how we're going to
34:52organize organize society differently
34:55and therefore you find leaders of
34:58reformist organizations failing in one
35:01way
35:01or another if that is the only
35:03alternative on the agenda so in the
35:05situation of Greece it might be the
35:07question of completely giving him
35:09backstabbing betrayed the working class
35:11whatever right although that is not see
35:13an ongoing battle that's still going on
35:14but or you can even see that the bravest
35:18of the brave reformist leaders who
35:20really don't want to go back on their
35:22principles who really don't want to give
35:23in but are incapable of mobilizing the
35:26forces that are going to be needed of
35:28arming the working class replacing the
35:30standing army by the army of the working
35:32class posing the army of the working
35:34class tutors tutor to the standing army
35:37and so I didn't capable of doing that
35:38look at the example of Chile in 1973
35:40look at what happened to a nd right so
35:43IND was a very very very very left-wing
35:45there's a very very left-wing government
35:47all right and he said to the
35:49working-class don't worry I'll go I
35:52could control the generals I could get
35:54them on my side it's okay we don't want
35:56to antagonize them right the workers
35:58would look what's happening know what's
35:59happening they're gonna come for us we
36:01want armors you know we want to be ready
36:03to fight and there was a lack of
36:04leadership in mobilizing our side to
36:07fight effectively and the result was you
36:09know not only not only I ended this but
36:14actually following that a massive period
36:17of reaction hundreds of thousands of
36:19people round up in places like Santiago
36:21football stadium and shot to manage the
36:24price that we pay if we because workers
36:26will fight whether we say or not and
36:28they will fight with all these ideas in
36:30their head and the price that we pay if
36:32we don't beforehand build on clear
36:35revolutionary principles that we aren't
36:37prepared to compromise on we are
36:39prepared to work with anybody who
36:40doesn't agree with all our ideas but we
36:43are not prepared to compromise on our
36:44ideas and we are not prepared to
36:46compromise on them on the fact that at
36:48the end of the day if you want to really
36:51smash society smash the boys of our
36:53society if you want to really create a
36:55fuller democracy if you want to really
36:58stop reaction then you have to be
37:00prepared to say the organs of the
37:02working class have to take state power
37:05and and smash the old state when that
37:08party needs to be built now not at the
37:11moment when the crisis actually becomes
37:13apparent to you
37:21okay we're gonna open up the discussion
37:24now we've got plenty of time for
37:25contributions if people have questions
37:28please feel free to ask them
37:32yeah basically you talked about the
37:34spike in honey
37:37they figured you left out for me and I
37:40think it's very important you know you
37:41took the best fish in the state you have
37:43to first of all talk about private
37:45property because the first one you get
37:47under the state is your right our
37:49disposal over your own property so that
37:52also gives me the right of exclusion
37:54from people to my property and that is
37:58the ought to say protects now I've
38:01talked about changes you know does it
38:04make manages that the state works with
38:06me now and if you have a society based
38:09on private property the rules of private
38:11property you're always gonna have been
38:13tagging isms
38:14oh you didn't mention that so with like
38:15editor
38:36and yes itís the Krypton I've been in
38:39cosmic truth right now I think that
38:43series right when she talks about Lenin
38:46was right and when he talked about you
38:50know the idea of the state being used as
38:51what was that thing that snare like a
38:54trap the idea that you can change
38:57society free display or even bring about
38:59socialism through the state I think and
39:02it's important especially now in Britain
39:06and actually across Europe to understand
39:07that in the context as well of why that
39:10snare is so alluring it's because of I
39:15think we have to look at you know
39:16accountant isms and the post-world War
39:18two and era was you know the New Deal
39:21and stuff because you did get you know
39:24labor governments and performace
39:27governments elected in different
39:30countries and we did see huge changes
39:32for people in terms of the NHS council
39:35housing many many of the public services
39:38that we use and rely on today and I
39:40think that's why it's also important to
39:42have an understanding obviously you know
39:44people are just coming to this one
39:45meeting it's important to get around and
39:47understanding and also the fact that
39:49that was not really to do with which
39:52government was in power which government
39:55was in power was more symptomatic really
39:57of what was going on in wider society
39:59and if you look actually back to like
40:02her election posters for like Labor and
40:05Tories back in like 1950s and 1960s
40:08above that they'd actually compete with
40:10each other like Tory election posters
40:12would say like labor haven't built
40:14enough council houses and we're gonna
40:15build more I mean like this is the Tory
40:17party like it's been quite mad and to
40:20imagine that now and it was actually
40:21look like a ruling class was one to
40:24basically an idea a strategy of
40:28overcoming the huge falls in profit
40:31rates that they'd had before the Second
40:32World War that you could do that through
40:34kindness and basically through spending
40:36more money having a sect that spent more
40:39money on public services so that those
40:41workers would then buy more buy more
40:43products and stuff and that
40:45that would be profit so I think that
40:47that's you know coming out of that
40:49periods we've seen neoliberalism and
40:52stuff like you know which has actually
40:53happened regardless of which governments
40:56in power because that's about you know
40:58that is now the strategy that the ruling
40:59classes one to the idea that actually we
41:01need to when you could drive down
41:04spending to increase product to increase
41:07profits sorry and I think that I think
41:10that and so I think that that's why it
41:12still holds a lot of sway and why it's
41:14still annoying for a lot of people and
41:16why it's particularly important to learn
41:17from history and obviously and you know
41:20we need to we need to point out to
41:21people who do think that you know it's
41:23possible for example for Jeremy Corbett
41:26no I backed era me Corbett 100% let me
41:28make that clear but the people who think
41:29that don't getting Jeremy Corbyn into
41:32Parliament is going to be you know the
41:33be-all and end-all that is frankly very
41:35very wrong and actually that would be
41:36when the real struggle starts to be
41:38honest so I think you know not just then
41:41with the quote you know we're not as
41:42socialist people probably know and the
41:44Saudis workers quite actually sometimes
41:45well we think it's appropriate we do
41:48stands people for it for elections and
41:49stuff but our attitude to it is that you
41:53know we do it to actually raise the
41:54profile of the campaign's that we're
41:56involved and I think then instead of
41:57quote Parliament is pile of or I
42:01think he's done heap to project your
42:07voice forever but don't fall into it
42:16speak up we followed by a guy here in
42:18the white t-shirt every one of the
42:21important thing about the Staton
42:23revolution is it posits a goal that we
42:25aim for and that that that is that was
42:28really important when known Ian wrote a
42:30to hide the revolution and it's very
42:32important for us today I think as well
42:34because Lenin has to write it after a
42:38decade of reformist within the German
42:40Social Democratic Party extremely
42:43respected figures as a guy called Kowski
42:45was called the Pope of Marxism he write
42:48the date the orthodoxy was yeah we'll
42:52talk about the red flag will talk about
42:54workers power but we're actually really
42:56talking about is Elektra politics that
42:58the SPD will get more and more you know
43:01candidates MPs in the Reichstag that
43:04will have passed better laws were for
43:06people eventually will move into a more
43:09caring and socialist society and it went
43:13beyond that actually is a guy called
43:15Hill for Dean key figure within SPD who
43:18says who said the final goal of
43:21communism whatever that is doesn't
43:23interest me at all
43:24the movement is everything in other
43:26words we will never get to that final
43:28gold and actually totally been at
43:30Marxism in the past actually provide
43:33this ID he said that so we'll never get
43:35to come as communism is not a train it's
43:39not a destination that we'll get to on a
43:40train driven by Bob Crow I remember was
43:42when if we're gonna be skipping classic
43:43things in other words we'll never really
43:45get there the movement is everything
43:46when and that's but that's where but
43:48that's where we which we attempted my
43:51boss I don't work for what used to be
43:53the Communist Party's distribution arm
43:55what boss
43:56joined when he was a Maoist in 60s and
43:58then became a Stalinist he said to me
44:01the other day I don't really think it
44:02Marx wanted to get rid of capitalism
44:07volumes of his work tell me what you say
44:09you want to preserve it in other words
44:11this is really really important because
44:14the the division that we have to put
44:16before people is that we can have a
44:18better society but it's not gonna be
44:20like the one we've got now we're not
44:21fact we have been smashed the one we've
44:23got now to actually get there and I'm
44:25sorry coming when you talk about the
44:27state of poverty relations come on there
44:30are a thousand people in this country
44:31meet their own 575 billion pounds
44:35between them I live in Hackney where 40%
44:39of children live in poverty the state is
44:41there to stop us strangling those
44:43bastards and that's what we'll do
44:49after the happiness speaker will be the
44:51car mate at the back in their great
44:52retail sewerage there's also read the
44:55state revolution I actually think
44:56Margaret Thatcher it's saying right
44:57because that's if you think that
44:59wouldn't you know the biggest challenge
45:00to the British state and the British
45:03bulldogs II certainly in my lifetime is
45:05the mind strike and actually you know
45:08Lenin said the state is the product of
45:10ericon terrible class differences the
45:13enemy within was the phrase issues the
45:16state is fundamentally armed bodies of
45:19men prisons etc that's very important to
45:22just expand on that a little bit you
45:25know when we talk about the state in
45:26everyday language you know people might
45:28think I've seen HS and you know there's
45:30a school down the roads a state school
45:32and so on Lenin is saying yeah yeah but
45:35actually its essence is armed bodies of
45:37men prisons etc in other words if the
45:40bourgeoisie fails to fix our heads
45:43through the son of the Daily Mail then
45:45actually there will break your head with
45:47a police truncheon or the troops on the
45:49streets and actually what was the -
45:51strike at the end of the day the -
45:53strike was coppers armies of coppers
45:55being paid overtime to get pickets to
45:59stop pickets you know getting to where
46:01they need to get to and so on it was an
46:03army operation of Billy Elliot
46:05you know when they chased through the
46:06pit villages you know it's a bloody
46:08police state and you know many many
46:10sentences so I think I think Lenin
46:12writing statement volution 1917 you know
46:15the miners strike you absolutely make
46:17sense
46:18the second thing I want to talk about
46:20it's the Soviets because you know sue
46:22quite rightly talked about letting the
46:23Russian Revolution Leni just want to be
46:25dictator as the dominant narrative and
46:27so on what is absolutely astonishing
46:29about most of the stuff that you read
46:30about the Russian Revolution is the way
46:32that most boys rise story ins they right
46:35out of the thing almost entirely or some
46:38of them are on its wounds in a sort of
46:40fairly sort of devious way they write
46:42out the Soviets pick and the reason why
46:45is because the Soviets are the depth the
46:47super Democratic alternative to the
46:49parliamentary sham and the reason why
46:52that is so if you think about it like
46:54this right you know most of us will
46:56spend most of our lives at work where
46:58there is no democracy at all and
47:00every five years you get to elect people
47:02to a parliament in other words the
47:05bourgeoisie rules by separating
47:07economics and politics separating the
47:09life of work from this politics thing
47:12over here
47:13the Soviets just Russian word meaning
47:16workers Council it means that you
47:18actually have workers in their own
47:20workplaces electing delegates and in the
47:24way that soup talked about immediately
47:26recallable
47:26not not on any more than the average
47:28workers pay it's not a system like we
47:31have under parliamentary democracy where
47:33you know you have one MP tries to
47:36represent 70,000 atomized individual
47:39citizen constituents right that actually
47:42serves the help of bourgeoisie rulers in
47:44it you know in a sham way the Soviets
47:47fuse economic and politics they're
47:49rooted in the workplaces and actually
47:52you know the Bolshevik Revolution wasn't
47:54a coup they actually won a majority of
47:57Delegates in the second Congress our
47:59wish and Congress of Soviets have
48:01workers deputies peasants deputies
48:03soldiers deputies it was a real grass
48:06roots democracy today people would use a
48:08word like people power right and that's
48:11actually the power that Lenin is talking
48:13about in the state revolution but that
48:15that can't actually ever get to any kind
48:18of victory unless you break the old
48:21state machine unless you break the arm
48:23bodies that print bodies of men
48:25prisoners etc and that's what you have
48:27to do and then you're on the road to
48:30actually a real deep genuine workers
48:32democracy this far superior to anything
48:35that the Bush hacia offering them
48:44respond to the comrade you asked
48:46initially about why don't we talk more
48:48about private property because it's a
48:50valid point
48:51because if what you mean by private
48:53property is catalyst control over the
48:55means of production of course that's
48:57absolutely what we want to end we want a
48:59world in which workers democratically
49:01controlled production from below so
49:04that's absolutely what we're about the
49:07difficulty with that though is that coal
49:10can't ski the great reformist leader
49:12could also say that's what
49:13wanted to say in his polemic with Lenin
49:17the difference between the two people is
49:20that kelskiy argues we achieve this goal
49:22for a gradual erosion of state power by
49:25capturing the state the state machine
49:28for ourselves through elections and so
49:31on and so forth
49:31what Lenin is arguing is that purpose a
49:34dead end what we have to do in a
49:36revolutionary situation is we have to
49:39confront and break the power of the
49:41capitalist state why do we have to do
49:43this because in a revolutionary
49:44situation the state becomes the key
49:47central organizing force of the ruling
49:50class
49:51it's whether class the ruling classes
49:52power is concentrated and you see that
49:55all the time look at the situation in
49:57Egypt how did the Egyptian ruling class
50:00faced with a massive rebellion from
50:03below organize the counter-revolution
50:04they did it through the state the state
50:07machine was absolutely critical both as
50:09a repressive apparatus under the
50:12organizer for the capitalist class and
50:14no one else could organize the
50:15capitalist class stepping in diverting
50:18that revolution process holding it back
50:20and then breaking it and today what that
50:22means in practice is the state seizing
50:25revolutionaries and throwing them in
50:26prison breaking their will to resist and
50:29some and so forth but the state is the
50:32key a tool that the ruling class use
50:34those situations and that's why then
50:36insist that you have to break the break
50:38the capitalist state prior to
50:40reorganizing the economy but it's very
50:42different to the great French Revolution
50:44to make bourgeois revolutions
50:45established capitalism those revolutions
50:47the capitalist can establish that put
50:49economic power before they actually have
50:52to take state power
50:53so she's revolution is different we have
50:55to first smash the capitalist state and
50:57then we can talk about process of
50:59reorganizing the economy under
51:00democratic lines and beginning to build
51:02a communist
51:05some small see a socialist or communist
51:08society final point is this if we have
51:11to smash the state how do we go about it
51:13and this is absolutely critical to
51:15Lenin's argument because but Lenin
51:18doesn't argue that the kind of society
51:20want to build is modeled on the Esther
51:22view pain love yes to be paid I don't to
51:25live in a society it looks like the
51:29motive force of revolutionary change is
51:32a mass movement by billions of working
51:34class people the organs of workers sell
51:36for all that thrown up in a revolution
51:37that's what paves the way to a new
51:39society however you cannot draw that
51:42energy creativity and power together
51:44unless you have a tool forged by workers
51:47that can draw those struggles together
51:49centralize them and direct them at the
51:51ruling class and direct them to the
51:53state and that for Lenin is a key role
51:55of a revolutionary party and why we take
51:57seriously the job of building
51:58organizations that he has to BP today
52:00thank you the next speaker will be
52:08followed by had talked about that yeah a
52:12lot of people were talking about
52:14performance and I just wanted to kind of
52:16add to that and I've stolen the money
52:18were doing and at the rise of Hitler and
52:20after World War one when there was the
52:22the armistice and treaty of versailles a
52:25man called Evert took control of Germany
52:28and he was a social democrat a ton of
52:30reformist at the time and he Socialist
52:34Republic and they got rid of the Kaiser
52:36and they set up loads of kind of public
52:39services and it seemed like it was
52:42apparent step in the right direction and
52:44then the Sparta City League began to
52:46grow and those of us its uprising in
52:48Berlin and so they supported the
52:51right-wing ultra nationalist
52:53Frei court to crush this boxis kind of
52:57almost communist movement and they
52:59killed Rosa Luxemburg they killed Carl
53:02who was said to be the German Lenin and
53:04it shows you kind of the dangers of
53:07performing that yes it can it can work
53:09to some extent but when it starts
53:11becoming the state and doing the things
53:13that the states did before it's not the
53:15right thing and in fact they they kind
53:18of learned that because once they had
53:19supported the right wing mr. Reichel the
53:22bright girl then took control of Berlin
53:24and they had to cook they had to flee to
53:26Weimer hence the name Weimar Republic
53:28and cool an all-out general strike to
53:32get rid of the frightful and was in kind
53:36of I mean not not the same obviously
53:37it's not kind of murder and betrayal but
53:40within similar things today like labor
53:43gets them to power they invade Iraq
53:45labour gets into power they cut the NHS
53:49but then you have the same with the
53:51Tories they get into power they make
53:53countries
53:53they made the Falklands they cut the NHS
53:56it seems like everyone that we elect no
53:59matter how left-wing or no matter how
54:02progressive they are they're not going
54:04to do it because once they get in
54:07there's pressures from either side
54:08there's people saying me to do this need
54:11to do is there to follow the procedures
54:13they have to absolutely have to get a
54:15majority in parliament and a majority of
54:17Parliament is not communist if not
54:19socialist it's people who have made a
54:21career out of politics and people who I
54:38want to say a quick little thing about a
54:40private property argue because I don't
54:42think it's being covered properly yet I
54:45mean when we talk about the taking of
54:48the Smashing of the state and then
54:50taking over the privates property for
54:52years and years and years I'm sure
54:54people hear about that they said that
54:56they talked so well you can't have my
54:58house or you can't have my garden let me
55:00reduce down to their own individual bits
55:03of private property and people say well
55:05you can't have a socialist revolution
55:06because you can't nationalize behind it
55:08poverty because it means we're going to
55:10lose our house it's not what it means at
55:12all it means they're taking a little bit
55:14of means of production and then you
55:16ferment you talk about in terms of the
55:19nationalization of the banks are taking
55:21over the financial institutions but the
55:24the essential thing is they're taking
55:26over the army and or the expansion of
55:29the other people with militia and the
55:31right of the power to the Soviets and
55:35the organization of the pond they're
55:37very very bold democracy and which is
55:40exactly at the heart and the core of
55:44lemmings rioting but the other thing a
55:47point I want to make though is about sue
55:49couldn't get to it about the widow in a
55:50way I think it's a sort just for a short
55:53amount of time not a big man of history
55:55so we've only got a small window of
55:57history to see it but soon as the
55:59dictatorship potahto begins it begins to
56:03wither away and what do we mean by that
56:06because immediately you start extending
56:08these means of production of democracy
56:10they goes from the Pewter lock works in
56:13being the same into Petersburg to other
56:16factories in some piece of work then it
56:18goes to the factories and offices and
56:19workplaces in Moscow then it goes to
56:21Kiev then it goes to Odessa as it
56:24spreads and spreads there's more and
56:26more communities and areas of taken
56:29under the control of the people get
56:31there but they determine the route and
56:33the direction of what the voice is going
56:34to go then that that that begins to to
56:38generate the decline of
56:41dictatorship of the proletariat in other
56:43areas as well which is a fuels of
56:45culture pizza fit are in terms of social
56:50legislation in terms of women's right to
56:54to each them divorce the whole thing
56:57about the economic v-line or the
57:01economics of your husband the youth
57:05communes the development of new housing
57:07all those things begin to break down the
57:11old order a different kind of ways and
57:13their expansion yes lasted for four or
57:16five years until the crushing of the
57:18Russian Revolution but for those four or
57:20five years you could see the ways in
57:22which then you meant that the
57:24dictatorship will wither away as more as
57:28people got more and more control over
57:30their lives and the possibility of
57:32account of evolution became less and
57:33less I just want to expand it was more
57:42inert Weimar Republic the Weimar
57:45Republicans best we didn't last long
57:47power there they actually failed and
57:51completely by trying to insert these
57:57socialists these more democratic
58:00elements into the parliamentary
58:02democracy of the time a major reason
58:05that was why the Weimar Republic was so
58:08inefficient was simply because
58:13they implemented again based on
58:18socialistic principles complete
58:20proportional representation so everyone
58:23had a right to be represented in the
58:24parliament meaning that at one time we
58:27had 5 ruling parties and that the
58:31democracy in the Weimar Republic
58:32completely collapsed when they couldn't
58:35really agree upon a 5 percent change in
58:38how much money should be spent on
58:41something I can't remember right now so
58:45together a set of course we have that
58:48the Republic the SPD not only allied
58:54itself with all power structures but
58:57kept the power structure and
58:59infrastructure the state workers people
59:06the ministers who also start during the
59:10era of the right even during the time of
59:12the first world war so that once in the
59:21later stated states of through public
59:22when people began to be disenfranchised
59:25with the mess that was the Weimar
59:28Republic they tended to be they tended
59:32not to the left as would be fertile but
59:34rather to the right to Hitler and I
59:39wouldn't necessarily say that the
59:42failure of the Weimar Republic
59:43completely it was completely
59:48turn us away from thinking that
59:51performance in this error and while
59:52whatever available option because even
59:54if we don't like to admit it if we were
59:56going by past failures socialism
59:58wouldn't really be the best option but I
1:00:01still think that the republic provides
1:00:04insight into how reformers and quick can
1:00:08quickly derail into failed state ok we
1:00:17have time for one more quite brief
1:00:20contribution after a chair we're going
1:00:22to bring the speaker back in very brief
1:00:25comments the reason I came to this
1:00:28meeting today is because one of the
1:00:30first meetings I went to at martyrdom
1:00:31yesterday Charlie Kimmel did about why
1:00:35Britain vote to leave the EU and one of
1:00:38the questions that an audience member
1:00:39came and raised was why couldn't we just
1:00:42all join the EU and find the good people
1:00:46in the European powers in reforming and
1:00:49make it into a progressive body and and
1:00:51there was a voice in my head is going to
1:00:53state revelations the stay in revolution
1:00:56meeting I think this argument about what
1:00:59the state is is really important and
1:01:00people should really stay in revolution
1:01:02for that reason I'll just cut that point
1:01:04the other point I wanted to make was
1:01:05some of the arguments around the EU
1:01:07stuff about all of the experts say that
1:01:11if we leave the EU of their disaster
1:01:14blah blah blah blah and the same stuff
1:01:15was said around Greece all of the
1:01:17experts say that Greece defaults on its
1:01:19debt on its debt Armageddon so there's a
1:01:22great reason if all the experts are
1:01:24lining up to say this that we need to
1:01:26think of what our politics say and what
1:01:29our historical materialism and
1:01:32and politics through action says and it
1:01:35is that we need to smash Satan and
1:01:37replace it with something else so State
1:01:39Revolution and I became okay thank you
1:01:47very much everyone
1:01:48who's concha period just before I bring
1:01:51sue back in just a couple of very brief
1:01:54announcements first of all state and
1:01:58revolution which has been referred to a
1:02:00lot in the media today is available
1:02:03bookmarks socialist bookshop and it's
1:02:06available if you interested in doing a
1:02:09bit of further reading you can come and
1:02:11buy it for me just now if you're if you
1:02:14if you want to and there's plenty more
1:02:16books on learning and at bookmarks and
1:02:23secondly if you want to continue the
1:02:26discussion if you have any questions
1:02:27about the meeting today you can go and
1:02:29speak to these guys at the back with the
1:02:32read forms here if you if you want to
1:02:33carry on the discussion after the
1:02:36meeting okay okay thanks very much
1:02:39comments and thanks for the place you've
1:02:41raised then a lot of people have come
1:02:42back on him very well so I'm not really
1:02:44going to repeat a lot of what people
1:02:46have said but just I just want just
1:02:49actually have a little quote from my
1:02:52pictures from Engels writing on the
1:02:54housing question because again when I
1:02:55talked about relevant a lot of this
1:02:56stuff is for today you know and people
1:02:59talked about private poverty and what
1:03:01can be achieved or stuff like that he
1:03:02says some one thing is certain there's
1:03:05already as a sufficient quantity of
1:03:07houses in the big cities to remedy
1:03:09immediately any real housing shortage
1:03:10inverted commas provided they are used
1:03:12judiciously this could naturally only
1:03:14occur through the expropriation of the
1:03:16present owners by quartering in their
1:03:17houses homeless workers or workers
1:03:19overcrowded in their present homes I
1:03:21mean you could just really translate
1:03:22that to today couldn't you and you can
1:03:23put it on a manifesto really you know
1:03:25it's brilliant and but one of the points
1:03:27that they make is that that's not about
1:03:29private property that's not about saying
1:03:31we'll give you this time and your time
1:03:32is yours it's about saying because we
1:03:34control it now this now becomes the
1:03:36property of our state and therefore you
1:03:39know and and therefore we will decide to
1:03:41give it to you and therefore the
1:03:42important point is how did you get to
1:03:44that
1:03:45where you control the state and make
1:03:47those decisions so the key question is
1:03:49the one of capture and control with the
1:03:51state and it's the question if a lot of
1:03:52people don't like to say they'd like to
1:03:53make all these nice demands and
1:03:56expressions and revolutionary you know
1:03:59revolutionary slogans but they miss out
1:04:01completely the point of the state in
1:04:03other words how you're going to get
1:04:04yourself into this position where we as
1:04:06a working class make the decisions that
1:04:08matter make the decisions that that
1:04:11matter in society I mean um Paul Holborn
1:04:14is meeting on the Russian Revolution
1:04:15this morning talked about and it's it's
1:04:17described in um John Reed's book ten
1:04:19days that shook the world about how you
1:04:22know a taxi driver driving him in from
1:04:24the station into Petrograd kind of you
1:04:26know when look at this Petrograd this is
1:04:28my Petrograd you know this real feeling
1:04:30that we now had some kind of say in in
1:04:35in in what in what happened in in what
1:04:40happened in society and how you know
1:04:42people rise up rise up to the that
1:04:45challenge so how do you run society now
1:04:48in stores how do you feel you've got a
1:04:49stake in society how are you going to
1:04:51rise up to that and start to take an
1:04:53active and an active part in in there
1:04:57and how it becomes much more democratic
1:05:00than the parliamentary system you know
1:05:02people have looked at you know people
1:05:03have talked about how you know in under
1:05:05the current democracy we vote every few
1:05:07years for who's going to rule over us
1:05:09you know letting talked about this 100
1:05:10years ago
1:05:11letting talked about this to decide once
1:05:13every few years which member of the
1:05:15ruling classes to repress and crush the
1:05:17people in Parliament such is the real
1:05:19essence of bourgeois parliamentarianism
1:05:20not only in parliamentary constitutional
1:05:23monarchies but also in the most
1:05:25democratic and publics you know well let
1:05:27us say this a hundred years ago that
1:05:29this is what we do now even in the most
1:05:30human in the most democratic Republic's
1:05:32all you're doing is voting to say who's
1:05:34going to rule over you and who's going
1:05:36to repress you for the next um for the
1:05:38next five years that's not to say that
1:05:39it doesn't make a difference it can make
1:05:41a difference you know why do we said
1:05:43well in that case why do we support
1:05:44Corbin why does it matter because the
1:05:46process by which you argue with in the
1:05:49parliamentary arena can actually have a
1:05:51have an effect on people's confidence
1:05:53can either can you know can make them
1:05:55expect more and want more and
1:05:57and more or it can make them think that
1:05:59nothing's really possible and therefore
1:06:00it does matter that we intervene in the
1:06:03parliamentary arena we shouldn't just
1:06:04well we shouldn't just leave it but we
1:06:07should understand that there is a better
1:06:09type of democracy available to us that
1:06:11that workers councils are a higher form
1:06:13of democracy than parliamentary
1:06:15democracy and one of the things that he
1:06:16describes I couldn't quite find the
1:06:18quotes in there just now about it
1:06:19describes the way in which it's not not
1:06:21only is it about voting once every five
1:06:23years for who's going to oppress you but
1:06:24it also operates in such a way that the
1:06:27vast majority of ordinary people are
1:06:29excluded from that process don't have
1:06:30real access to it either through lack of
1:06:33time through lack of proper education
1:06:35through all sorts of things it
1:06:36inevitably becomes something that is
1:06:38just for yearly and by the elite and it
1:06:40excludes a lot of ordinary workers look
1:06:42at the people who end up sitting in
1:06:44Parliament you know it's you know so so
1:06:46so whereas a workers council where
1:06:48people are directly or were elected from
1:06:51workers in a particular area you know
1:06:53you if you elect if you elect your
1:06:55candidate what was the last by-election
1:06:56we had to teen or something you know
1:06:58well when the people of Tooting ever
1:07:00meet together to discuss how their
1:07:02emplyees going when do all of the people
1:07:04are fooding get together go what do you
1:07:06think about what I did on justice or
1:07:07about that let's never discuss now in
1:07:09your workplace you look together all the
1:07:11time aren't you you always go no this is
1:07:12what a boss did the other day and this
1:07:14is what blah blah you know and therefore
1:07:16it immediately becomes much more
1:07:18democratic because you're in direct
1:07:20contact all the time with the people who
1:07:22are representing you so organising
1:07:24yourself on the basis of workplaces of
1:07:27housing estates or things like this it's
1:07:29actually a much more fundamentally
1:07:31democratic way of operating than the
1:07:34Sham democracy that we have that we have
1:07:38at the moment and I think that's um you
1:07:41know and I think that's really and a
1:07:43figment and I think that's really
1:07:45important you know the examples that
1:07:46people have given about the viciousness
1:07:48of the state when it fills threatens and
1:07:50you know the way that we saw it in the
1:07:52miners strike and so on is absolutely
1:07:54valid because if we're going to say to
1:07:56people well we actually want to get rid
1:07:58of this state and we're going to replace
1:07:59it with a completely different kind of
1:08:01state and we're going to get rid of the
1:08:03standing army we're going to replace it
1:08:04with workers with bodies of armed
1:08:07workers that maybe rotate so we all get
1:08:09a go you know
1:08:10you'll get a go in the organs of office
1:08:12we don't have we don't elect people for
1:08:13life though we want to bring more and
1:08:15more people in to participate into that
1:08:16into that democracy now how do we how do
1:08:19you know they aren't going to find us
1:08:21they are going to find us with the brute
1:08:22force aspect of the government with the
1:08:25arm bodies of men with the presence of
1:08:27prisons with the torturers and so on you
1:08:28have to be prepared to organize on the
1:08:31basis of saying that you are going to
1:08:32stand up now the only way you can break
1:08:34that actually is from a section now it's
1:08:36doesn't mean that we need you no it's
1:08:38not that we're going to organize a
1:08:39little army and go out and fight their
1:08:40army we need mass action on the streets
1:08:43and one of the things of course that
1:08:44mass action can do is to start to break
1:08:46armies you know don't you need to force
1:08:48the army to shoot on their brothers and
1:08:49sisters and representatives of the
1:08:50community and so on you know you can see
1:08:52that people start to break in those
1:08:54sorts of moments of mass crisis but yet
1:08:56but only when the masses really come out
1:08:57on the streets that a precondition of
1:08:59raising the slogan all power to the
1:09:01Soviets it wasn't a slogan all the way
1:09:03through the precondition of raising that
1:09:05slogan was that the mass movement had
1:09:07reached that point where actually and
1:09:09Nyssa kind of been you know famously
1:09:11known perhaps that on their Eve on that
1:09:13on the day of the actual winds direction
1:09:15itself less people died that in making
1:09:17the film of the insurrection
1:09:19that would that that was made wide
1:09:21because by that stage actually the
1:09:23argument had been won by the Bolsheviks
1:09:26in the Soviets throughout all of the
1:09:28major workplaces factories army
1:09:31regiments and so on throughout Petrograd
1:09:35so you know so the key is arming us
1:09:40theoretically but also engaging with
1:09:43people in a way that starts to win over
1:09:44masses in the real battle of the day
1:09:46today in the real battle of the day to
1:09:48day struggles that take place now and I
1:09:50just want to go back to her you know the
1:09:52question of Germany is really vital
1:09:54because actually well one of the things
1:09:56that learning the Bolsheviks said was
1:09:59that our revolution will not survive on
1:10:01its own if we are if we are left to
1:10:03survive on our own we are defeated that
1:10:05our internet our the success of our
1:10:09revolution depends on it becoming an
1:10:10international revolution and this was a
1:10:12pie in the sky talk at a time you know
1:10:14you look at Germany austria-hungary a
1:10:16whole number of countries where workers
1:10:19Soviets were being set up where people
1:10:21were starting to look at what was
1:10:22happening in Russia where people were
1:10:23angry
1:10:24what was happening with the war and so
1:10:26on and so forth
1:10:27there was a real revolutionary firming
1:10:29going on across large sways of Europe
1:10:31the idea of an international workers
1:10:33revolution was not an abstract question
1:10:36this was being posed concretely in a
1:10:38whole number of number of places inside
1:10:41Germany the German working class who've
1:10:43been led for many many years by the
1:10:45Socialist said the Social Democratic
1:10:47Party which betrayed them by supporting
1:10:50the First World War actually the
1:10:53question of what alternative party you
1:10:55need as it went as they went into 1917
1:10:581918 and so on became absolutely crucial
1:11:01and and and somebody mention Rosa
1:11:04Luxemburg and Cole Liebknecht and
1:11:05actually that decision to break with the
1:11:08Social Democratic Party and form an
1:11:10independent Revolutionary Party was left
1:11:13to late it was left to late and
1:11:15therefore when the question came of how
1:11:18you are going to take on the state which
1:11:20was for some we know somebody said he
1:11:22actually what you know what was the
1:11:24social democratic government working
1:11:28hand in glove with the fry car with the
1:11:32you know forerunner what went on to
1:11:35become a record a Nazi Party and so on
1:11:37that when when when when the core
1:11:40question was posed of how you're going
1:11:42to stand up to the state they were
1:11:44unable to mobilize the masses on their
1:11:46side this isn't a question of being
1:11:47heroic and of saying yeah we're for
1:11:49smashing the state we're gonna come out
1:11:51and chug a few bombs at you you have to
1:11:52mobilize the masses on your site and you
1:11:54cannot do that if you have not
1:11:56systematically over a period of time
1:11:58begun to win the most active with the
1:12:00Vanguard Workers to your side the most
1:12:03militant one was the most the ones who
1:12:05most want to tear a systems head off the
1:12:07ones with the best experience of taking
1:12:09on the bosses the mouths feet of gobby
1:12:10people all of those people we need to
1:12:13get them organized on our side now the
1:12:15people who understand that when you
1:12:16fight you've got to try and win people
1:12:17and take people with you we need to
1:12:19organize them with us now and if we do
1:12:21that now then we can talk about
1:12:24seriously as the crisis develops and as
1:12:27you know as people start to look for
1:12:30alternative forms of organization and
1:12:32ways to fight back and ways to win we
1:12:35can win them to our side but we're not
1:12:37going to leave that
1:12:38the government and end up like Rosa
1:12:39Luxemburg getting back to the revival
1:12:41back button chucked in the river we are
1:12:43starting to build that organization now
1:12:45so please join us if you haven't done so
1:12:46already

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