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Lazygit creator interviews DHH (Rails creator) — Transcript

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0:00hey guys today I have the pleasure to
0:03speak to David hamah Hansen also known
0:05as
0:06dhh David is the creator of Ruby on
0:09Rails uh the co-founder of 37 signals
0:13and he is a bestselling author in this
0:15conversation we talk about a bunch of
0:18stuff we talk about Linux uh the
0:20terminal Renaissance
0:23rails um how personality affects what
0:26kind of programming language uh a
0:28developer likes
0:30uh we talk about
0:32religion philosophy stoicism attachment
0:37addiction weird
0:39legalization uh changing your mind over
0:42time we talk about uh Tech and its
0:46relationship to political
0:48issues um we talk about really just a
0:51bunch of interesting stuff um so yeah I
0:55really enjoyed this uh I think you all
0:57too and so without further Ado here is d
1:00H mayah Hansen okay David thanks so much
1:03for coming on the podcast yeah
1:05absolutely my pleasure okay so um uh the
1:11reason I I decided to reach out to you
1:13is because you've been spending this
1:14time on Twitter talking about your
1:16journey going through like learning
1:17Linux and all this stuff so I want to
1:20ask you is 2024 finally the year of the
1:23Linux
1:24desktop well I was trying to be um sort
1:28of temperate about it so when I wrote
1:30about my own Linux Journal um and I have
1:33been writing about I've been calling it
1:342025 like 2024 is when we're sort of
1:38ratcheting up and getting everything
1:39ready and then 2025 is when the big push
1:43is going to happen now what's so funny
1:46about that is partly because it's a joke
1:48I think it's been running since what 97
1:51or 96 people have been saying this is
1:53the year of Linux on the desktop and
1:56everyone has perhaps their own
1:57definition of that and I think the
2:00the definition that is Linux is going to
2:03dominate the desktop it's going to wipe
2:06out windows and it's going to put Apple
2:08out of business with their MacBooks is I
2:11mean that was never gonna happen right
2:13so when I call for Linux and the desktop
2:15I'm more modest in my um aspirations
2:19Linux for my desktop first of all Linux
2:21for my desktop well that we can call
2:232024 for sure but then also just getting
2:26to a significant market share at least
2:30within technically sophisticated users
2:33because I think part of the Linux on the
2:35desktop discour is that's been setting
2:37itself up for failure is that it's
2:39trying to Define first of all the whole
2:40thing as one market like oh let's get on
2:42the desktop that means all desktop
2:44computers that means everyone who's sort
2:46of using a computer for anything and
2:49that's I think a tall order and you
2:51should set yourself more achievable
2:53goals first before you go like oh do you
2:55know what I like climbing let's start
2:56with Mount Everest maybe start with a
2:59Mount that's slightly smaller and I
3:01think I mean that's been certainly also
3:03my own experience is that there's a
3:05there's a obviously a lot of very
3:07technically minded people programmers
3:09and and other folks who are very
3:11intimate with computers start their
3:13first um first of all that is a huge
3:16Market second of all they're a more
3:19likely to recognize what Linux brings to
3:21the table and B they're more capable
3:24perhaps to still deal with some of the
3:26snacks that are on the platform so
3:30to when I say Linux under the desktop
3:322025 I'm actually mostly talking about
3:34like my own field my own domain
3:35programmers yeah yeah that let's get to
3:37a significant number of people let's
3:39even just call it like if 10% of all
3:41programmers were on Linux I think that's
3:43a nice solid yet achievable goal um I
3:47think the um the internet stat says that
3:49like 4% of all internet users are on
3:51Linux but I think that also includes
3:53Chromebooks maybe I don't know yeah and
3:56I feel I feel weird counting Chromebooks
3:58it kind of seems like it's cheating to
4:00include that yeah I think it is I think
4:04you got to go like you know what um I I
4:06mean what's interesting it with it is I
4:08think it's actually pretty awesome the
4:09cro book is based on links and I think
4:12there is overlap and help and so forth
4:14but that's not what I would say oh
4:15you're a programmer you should start
4:17using a Chromebook I there probably are
4:19some people who do maybe but for most
4:22they should go with a mainstream which
4:24is even a weird word to use but a
4:26mainstream Linux distribution like auntu
4:28or whatever for sure um it's kind of
4:32interesting like Linux is in many ways
4:35uh it seems to come hand inand with a
4:38more terminal based workflow and there's
4:40no I don't know if there's a good reason
4:42for that but that's often what you see
4:43and there are some die hards who are
4:45just fully in the terminal and that's
4:47just all they do and um obviously you
4:49had an experience using like neovim and
4:51my own pride and joy laser and lazy
4:54Docker um I want to know like why why do
4:57you think we haven't just moved
4:58completely away from applications like
5:00why is this thing still lingering on and
5:02holding on for life like what is what's
5:04special about it that keeps it in in the
5:07zist that's a really good question and I
5:09think if you had asked me like a year
5:12ago before I started my Linux Journal I
5:14would have said I don't think we are I
5:17think that most people even developers
5:21are actually not that
5:23terminally terminally exposed to
5:25terminals um they are in vs code they
5:29are
5:30they use a terminal but I don't know if
5:33most of them necessarily have an
5:34affection for it and that to me really
5:37was part of the magic of switching to
5:38Linux I've been using a Unix powered
5:43machine since what 2001 when I switched
5:46to Mac Os or Os 10 as it was called back
5:49then which is based on sort of Unix
5:51underpinnings and terminal is a a part
5:54of that but obviously also very heavily
5:56grounded in the mac and graphical user
5:59interfaces and and so forth um and yet
6:02even though all my work is like I'm a
6:04programmer I work with open source
6:06programming language I I use the
6:07terminal for a whole lot of things I
6:09don't know if I had yet had the full
6:12exposure of what the terminal could be
6:15and I think that's why I'm actually so
6:16excited about what's going on with Linux
6:19and tools like lacy kit that I didn't
6:21even know existed and I that was my
6:25Marvel where I went do you know what I'm
6:27a programmer I'm doing open source
6:29development
6:30like I should know how is it that I
6:32didn't know how is it that I didn't know
6:34that all these wonderful tools existed
6:37not just um sort of replacement for
6:39something like a a g guey with lazy git
6:42but also all the little tools like eza
6:44and um all these improvements to the
6:47terminal experience that are out there
6:50and like it's not even like they're
6:51hidden it's not like people are like oh
6:53you can't see my awesome terminal world
6:56but there's almost like a subculture
6:58that exists a little bit separate from
7:00the mainstream programming environment
7:02and sometimes they overlap yeah um but I
7:06was just marveling at the fact that oh I
7:09didn't know it was this good I didn't
7:11know it was this appealing I didn't know
7:13it was this enjoyable I thought to be
7:17perfectly honest I thought that people
7:21Linux people terminal heavy people like
7:23were a little strange like a little odd
7:26like uh odd in a good way right but like
7:29OD in that that's not me kind of way and
7:33that was really a mistake and I kind of
7:35feel like I've cheated myself out of
7:37being more productive having more fun as
7:39a programmer with all these tools
7:41available that I've really discovered
7:43this year in particular and that's why
7:45I'm so passionate about going like okay
7:47if I didn't know there's got to be a lot
7:49of other people who didn't know either
7:51so we gota help them see what's here and
7:54I think Linux in
7:56particular is really interesting because
7:58I think there's a bunch of people in
8:00technology who've been exposed to Linux
8:02their whole lives because they've been
8:03working with the internet and whatever
8:04and Linux been a fixture since the
8:0790s and they've anchored their
8:09perceptions of what Linux is to whatever
8:13some auntu CD from 2008 yeah or seeing
8:18some person with a split keyboard that
8:21just was like too far away too weird
8:23from what they were doing maybe they
8:24were running um like a tiling virtual
8:27manager or something else that just
8:28looked very very foreign from what they
8:30were used to yeah like like a keyboard
8:32with no arrow keys that kind of thing
8:34yeah that Linux today is is a lot better
8:38than it was even five six years ago and
8:41I find that's not just Linux it's true
8:44about a lot of things someone who's been
8:46in technology for a while will develop a
8:48certain mental model of what certain
8:50Technologies are capable of and those
8:52mental models will update quite slowly
8:56and they will quickly drift and get out
8:58of date and I've seen that that in other
9:00forms of uh of web development what we
9:02think browsers are capable of uh whether
9:04we need transpilers or bundlers and all
9:07these other things sometimes technology
9:08moves ahead of your mental model and if
9:10you don't make it concerted effort to
9:13catch up you'll just be left missing out
9:16on progress that was available to you
9:18and I think that's really been part of
9:20what's true in the Linux world and I
9:22also think unfortunately part of the the
9:25joke of Linux on the desktop having been
9:27around for 30 years is that it a little
9:30bit angers that right it's been it was a
9:33joke 10 years ago it was a joke 20 years
9:35ago it was a joke 30 years ago actually
9:37you be a rational Observer you'd go like
9:39it's also going to be a joke today and a
9:41joke tomorrow because I mean that's just
9:43how most things are if it's been that
9:45way for 30 years like you it's going to
9:47be difficult to pick up when it's no
9:48longer true but first of all I think it
9:51is no longer true um and second of all I
9:54think the fact that it's no longer true
9:56is partly connected to the resurgence of
9:59this fascination with techn with
10:02terminal tools which I think lasit is
10:04one example of it neovim is another
10:07example of it um zeage and some of these
10:10other tools that we talked about are
10:11examples of these are actually these are
10:14modern tools these are not tools that
10:16necessarily have a 30-year history I
10:18mean neovim has back to 78 or whatever
10:21you can trace with but the current
10:23implementation that's solidly modern
10:25being worked on by someone else and just
10:29aging gray beards and that is a really
10:34fascinating phenomenon that reminds me
10:36about um sort of other shifts where we
10:39go back to a earlier way of living and
10:42finding that more appealing like I'm
10:44into both watches and cars and with
10:47watches mechanical watches they went
10:49through this quartz crisis in the um in
10:52the late 70s early 80s where everyone
10:54when there's a new technology out it's
10:56so much better at keeping time at a lcal
10:59cost you can make a quad watch for
11:01almost no money at all it'll keep time
11:02better than the finest switch watch
11:04making so you went through this period
11:06of I don't know five six years I forget
11:08how long the the dark ages of the Swiss
11:10industry was with the cour crisis and
11:13then you came out on the other side and
11:14suddenly there were a bunch of people go
11:15like yet but do you know what the point
11:18of a watch is not just telling time the
11:21point of a watch is also to admire
11:24craftsmanship and the art and the all
11:28the stuff in it right
11:29one example the other example I like is
11:31manual transmissions so manual
11:34transmissions have sort of been outdated
11:36for quite a while I know in Europe I
11:38mean we clung on them to them for a lot
11:40longer than they did in the US I learned
11:42how to drive a car with a with a manual
11:45but then uh automatic boxes got so good
11:48and most importantly especially in
11:49Europe got so cheap that it no longer
11:51necessarily made sense to have a manual
11:53and you went through the same phase also
11:55at the high end of the car market with
11:56all the supercars and whatnot everyone
11:59want wanted the paddles they wanted like
12:00new technology it lasted for a quartz
12:03crisis amount of time until people
12:06realized yeah but you know what driving
12:08a car isn't just about being efficient
12:10it's also about being involved it's also
12:13about the joy of actually shifting a
12:14gear now is that a mass Market
12:16mainstream thing people just want to go
12:19to the shop no that's not what a lot of
12:20them think about but the enthusiasts do
12:23and I see the same thing with Linux and
12:26the terminal in particular and those two
12:27things like how they're related people
12:29were rediscovering the terminal actually
12:31there's something really cool about
12:33manipulating a computer predominantly
12:36through a keyboard and the terminal is
12:38just like that's what the terminal is
12:40not withstanding the I'm always amazed
12:43when I'm I move my mouse around in
12:45neovim and I can actually drag things
12:47I'm like it's there's a Schism there
12:49that doesn't seem to make sense I'm I'm
12:50happy about it that it's possible but I
12:53think the approach and the fascination
12:55with the terminal is returning to
12:58actually interface with the computer
12:59through the keyboard is really it's not
13:01just neat it's not just more direct in
13:05some sense it's fun it's fast it's
13:09productive there's all these different
13:12facets of it that all overlap and I
13:14think if I was going to be predicting
13:16person um which I I I what I like to do
13:19about predicting the future is to
13:21basically just extrapolate from wherever
13:22I am right now that's not widespread the
13:24terminal is one of those things I think
13:26we're going to see more terminal usage
13:28more
13:29tues going forward than um than we are
13:33that there's a Resurgence with the
13:34terminal and as the terminal resurges I
13:37think the move to Linux is going to be
13:39very natural I think what grounded a lot
13:41of people in the Mac was goys like
13:45that's what the Mac is exceptional at
13:47that's where it had an advantage over
13:49Linux in the terminal there's no
13:51Advantage I mean if any was thing maybe
13:53there's a slight disadvantage once you
13:55get used to a terminal you like to have
13:56like a built-in package manager and a
13:59whatever all the other things that come
14:00with it which Mac does a passable jum
14:03off I used home Pro for many years a
14:05wonderful project but I like um I like
14:08the auntu setup better I like some of
14:09this tooling better and I like a whole
14:11operating system that's built around
14:12those things and then when you realize
14:14that especially if you work with the web
14:16you go like actually there's something
14:18pretty neat about running the same
14:19operating system as I run my services on
14:21on the computer my dependencies are
14:23describe the same way and I just get
14:26more familiar with the technology that
14:28runs the thing I put into production I
14:30think that's a good thing too I think
14:32that um most of the times that I've
14:35heard that a colleague is using Linux
14:37it's just because dock of for Mac was so
14:39slow having to run this virtual machine
14:42and the fans would be blasting on your
14:43MacBook Pro it was like a big thing in
14:45my previous company and um yes yeah it
14:48makes a huge difference just be directly
14:50in Linux it's still a thing I mean
14:52what's is interesting is that doger for
14:55Mac has improved Leaps and Bounds I mean
14:56it was truly terrible the whatever the
14:58file
14:59system whatever it's called yeah exactly
15:02so slow and was so bad it's not that bad
15:06but it's still not great like for
15:08example um at at our company 37 signals
15:11we run the test Suite against the docker
15:15um database now and when I run on Linux
15:18I can't tell the difference whether I
15:19run those tests against a native um
15:22MySQL or post instance or I run them in
15:26Docker on the Mac it's about a 30%
15:28haircut like the test take 30% longer to
15:31to run so there definitely still a
15:34penalty there um what's funny about that
15:36too
15:37is I mean I love Docker and one of the
15:40reasons I love Docker is exactly because
15:42it works both on the Mac and it even
15:43works on Windows and it works on Linux
15:45and we even use it for deployment now we
15:48built this tool called Kamal that uses
15:51just basically straight Docker as a much
15:53simpler version of getting containerized
15:56deployments without going the whole
15:57kubernetes route so we're just using
15:59Docker love Docker I think it's one of
16:02those great leaps forward
16:03containerization and productizing that
16:06in a way that makes it so approachable
16:08absolutely huge fan of it can't
16:11necessarily say about that that about
16:12the guy on the Magan particular as you
16:15can imagine I agree exactly versus um
16:19Lacy doer has that same appeal to like
16:22this feels like the kind of technology
16:24that should be a tuille where it's not
16:27even it's not a novelty it's actually
16:29just legitimately better what I usually
16:31want to do when I I look at a container
16:34I want to go in and look at its logs I
16:35want to have a quick shot hotkey to jump
16:39into a a terminal inside of that
16:41container darker for Mac does makes that
16:44kind of combersome and and Laser doer is
16:46just such a great example of like boom
16:47boom boom you know three hot keys and
16:50you're in you're doing your thing um
16:52even more so I'd say even though I use
16:54it a lot less but even more so than than
16:56lazy G because G already had sort of the
16:59foundation that a lot of people used it
17:00directly through the terminal I
17:01certainly did even if I was also using
17:04uh the GitHub uh for desktop tool for
17:06some merch comparisons I would use the
17:10the terminal for it a lot too so you
17:11were already in the realm you see do Mak
17:14so or lazy G makes it so much nicer and
17:16especially to be able to the main thing
17:18I used GitHub for um for desktop for was
17:22when I wanted to make a partial commit I
17:23never internalized whatever I had to do
17:26in the terminal to commit like two lines
17:28out of a different there was nothing to
17:31internalize it was borderline impossible
17:33like exact yes yeah it's I still don't
17:36think there's a solution to that just
17:38directly using the CLI that doesn't
17:39require like updating the patch headers
17:42manually so I I just before get up for
17:43do it just didn't do I didn't do that I
17:45just I would actually literally revert
17:48some changes if I had forgotten to make
17:50a commit make the commit and then paste
17:52the changes back in versus with with
17:55laser G you get as good in fact better
17:57because it's easier to navigate with the
17:59um with the hotkeys and the terminal to
18:01add which lines do I want in and which
18:03lines do I not want in um but that was
18:06that uh that was that difference and
18:07then I think again the more you get
18:10sucked into the terminal because you
18:12discover all these great tools the more
18:14of your workflow now lives in the
18:16terminal like the vast major the only
18:18thing that's basically left that doesn't
18:19live in the terminal for me is the
18:20browser and um all of this stuff reduces
18:25your dependency on a specific platform
18:28one of the problems I really had or I
18:31thought I had with the Mac was there's
18:33these exclusive tools I could only use
18:36on the Mac and some of them are true
18:38like um I like Apple photos I think the
18:40Apple photos app is actually a really
18:42good app and it's one of the best way of
18:43synchronizing photos across mobile
18:45devices and with family members and so
18:47on really nice app I had to sort of
18:49compromise when I moved to Linux to to
18:51do something else I ended up with Google
18:53photos not super thrilled with that I
18:55know there are other Solutions I've
18:56looked at a bunch of them but it wasn't
18:58sort of slam donkey right and then I
19:00thought the same thing was true for my
19:01development workflow I thought for
19:03example the textmate which is an editor
19:05I've been using for damn near 20 years
19:06and I still love dearly which is very
19:08much a Mac application I mean it wasn't
19:11available to Linux how could I do
19:12without and then over two attempts the
19:16first one failed the second one stuck I
19:19discovered neovim and rediscovered I'd
19:21used Vim like 20 years ago and still had
19:24some of those pockies in my uh in my
19:26head I rediscovered how neat it was then
19:28I discovered lazy viim which is
19:31basically taking all this hardship of
19:33the configurations which I think by the
19:34way is a important point we should touch
19:36on but took all the hardship of
19:38configuring neovim which can be anything
19:40which also means it could be everything
19:42and like it's just a thousand blocks
19:44dumped under the floor that you have to
19:45spend like 50 hours figuring out how to
19:47put together into some workable editor
19:50lazy basically get like yeah do you know
19:52what I put all the pieces together for
19:53you here's a great editor buil on neovim
19:57and that was my first exposure actually
19:58to uh to Las I didn't even know it was
20:01lazy I just did
20:03space and it was having preconfigured it
20:08um that um that kind of led me that way
20:10I forget whether it like then tells you
20:12to install it and that's how I got the
20:14name that oh you need lazy okay
20:16something something and I got down this
20:18trap and then I realized oh okay my
20:21whole development
20:22workflow managing did uh my text editor
20:27all my terminal tooling zeelot like I
20:30was slumming it with tabs in the [ __ ]
20:32default terminal in on the Mac for
20:35literally years and years right you you
20:37start using a zeage um layout where you
20:40have multiple pains and all the stuff
20:42and you go like man I was really on
20:44poverty row here with the setup it so
20:47good and then it only really took I'd
20:50say it took probably two to three weeks
20:53before I went like oh [ __ ] I'm better
20:56off like first like so sort of to be
20:59fair I quit a little bit in spite like
21:02apple had just finally pushed me over
21:04the edge it was with this whole debacle
21:06over whether they were going to kill PW
21:08in Europe um to spite some legislation
21:12whatever it was just a final straw I had
21:14a tested relationship with Apple for a
21:16long time but just to be fair I went to
21:19Linux at first because I don't want to
21:22use a Mac anymore I didn't go to Linux
21:24because like yes I want to see what
21:26Linux got right it was uh it was first a
21:29negative Choice before it was a positive
21:30choice but after about those three weeks
21:33collecting all of that stuff and
21:34realizing do you know what my
21:36development environment is actually a
21:38lot better than it was and I've spent
21:40literally two decades building up the
21:43old muscle memory and using all the
21:45tools and here I spent three weeks they
21:46were difficult three weeks I will say
21:48when you first go from a guy text editor
21:51in particular even too lazy get I'll say
21:55from get up to desktop it's not on day
21:58one it's not on day two it's not on day
22:00three that you go like oh yes I love it
22:03it's on day like probably four and the
22:05problem with day four is a lot of people
22:07don't make it through day one two or
22:08three but I did because I was so
22:10motivated to really get out and then I
22:12thought by week three after things have
22:15been terized I could lean back and go
22:16like I'm really happy this happened like
22:19actually thank you Apple for whatever
22:21[ __ ] you were thank you for [ __ ]
22:23me around yeah exactly because if you
22:25hadn't inertia would just have done its
22:29thing I would have stayed in my groove I
22:31wouldn't have discovered all this
22:33wonderful stuff and now I'm really happy
22:36that it happened and now I've been
22:38running Linux for for months now um I I
22:41went kind of crazy when when I first
22:44felt like I can't use a Mac anymore I
22:46went like okay then I have to find the
22:48perfect alternative and that's where I
22:51just I mean I kind of it is work but in
22:54another way it's also not and I stopped
22:56the normal work I did for a fair time
23:00mhm to learn everything there is like Go
23:03full Deep dive like hours and hours of
23:06YouTube videos hours and hours of Linux
23:08deep Dives and styling and so on and
23:11what that ended up to was like basically
23:13compressing like literally a total of
23:15hundreds of hours into a project that's
23:16what I like to do I like to learn
23:18something and then I like to try to see
23:19if I can compress the complexity that it
23:22took me to understand all of that and
23:24then make it easier for someone else and
23:26that's what become became the yak cuu uh
23:28project which ships not only with neovim
23:31it ships with lazy GID and lazy doger
23:33and all the things such that I could go
23:35like you know what I just spent hundreds
23:37of hours some of it needlessly so but I
23:39enjoyed it um not everyone's going to do
23:42that there's G to be a ton of Mac folks
23:44who just go like you know what I'm going
23:45to give this two hours I need to see
23:49something in the first two hours that
23:51makes me hungry for more and I thought
23:54you know what if you set up a stock of
23:57buun and the first thing you see is that
23:59[ __ ] purple terminal you're going to
24:02go like I don't know yeah it is really
24:06depressing how in a lot of the stock uh
24:09the the stock standard uh distributions
24:11the default terminal doesn't look that
24:13good and it's like I thought Linux was
24:15all about the terminal why is why is the
24:17standard thing here so below part
24:19especially if you're coming from the Mac
24:20which you use like I term yes and I
24:23think that that was one of the things
24:24where I had that experience when I first
24:27went to Linux like I spent a couple days
24:28going like I don't know if I can do this
24:31maybe I G to have to eat my hat and go
24:33back to the Mac because I just I can't
24:35live like this and then um I forget how
24:39I stumbled upon it but I think I
24:40stumbled upon the Reddit Unix porn which
24:44is this super Riser whatever everything
24:46is a um is a tiling VM setup this that
24:50and the other thing but what it did do
24:52to me was oh [ __ ] Linux can look like
24:56this what I vely remember having seen
24:59some images but then I went into that
25:00Reddit and spent quite a while going
25:03like oh that's really cool that's really
25:05cool that looks better than the Mac that
25:07looks better than the mac and I went
25:09like but why does my thing just look
25:10like this purple purple terminal that
25:12like doesn't have good padding doesn't
25:14ah I don't like it right and then I went
25:16okay do you know what this is possible
25:18so a lot of people have figured out how
25:20to Rice Linux is still too hard and
25:22whatever but like if a lot of people can
25:24find this could we not make this more
25:25accessible and that was where it kind of
25:28is is two parts and I think this is one
25:30of the reasons why Linux for some people
25:32have a hard adoption process because you
25:35have the Linux people who are literally
25:37like I don't give a [ __ ] how anything
25:39looks um Aesthetics are not essential in
25:43fact they're are a distraction I want
25:45something as austere and as basic I'm
25:47just about functionality and I say like
25:49that's the classic Li Linux image I had
25:52in my head I don't know what um
25:55L's um what his personal desktop looks
25:58like but I I kind of doubt it looks like
26:01Unix porn I have the image that maybe he
26:03run he a very pragmatic person I think
26:06he's not very aesthetically driven and I
26:09think I mean we have all of the Linux
26:13ecosystem to think for people like that
26:15right like I'm ever so grateful that
26:17there are a bunch of people who just
26:18went like I don't care how it looks I'm
26:19just going to make it work and I'm GNA
26:20make it free and I'm gonna make all the
26:22things we love about L but what I
26:24realized through Unix point is like do
26:25you know what those people can still
26:27exist and still do their purple terminal
26:29default thing and not care about how
26:31things look and we can also have the
26:32other stuff and if we take both things
26:35and we make it work together and we make
26:37it approachable and easy to set up and
26:40not hard to get like a goodlook Linux
26:44that's heavily influenced by the uh Unix
26:47porn stuff combined with all the stuff
26:50that Linux already does excellently like
26:52the package management and and so forth
26:55combined with a curated set of defaults
26:58that are tailored to for example
27:00programmers such that they don't have to
27:02figure out how to install all these
27:04things and learn all the stuff that goes
27:07into learning it I think we could win
27:08over a lot of people I thought and I
27:11mean I know I'm not exactly novel here
27:13how many Linux distributions are there
27:14about five million yeah but I did think
27:17actually to some extent even seeing all
27:19that there's a packaging problem here
27:21there's a packaging problem where all
27:23the bits are there again that joke is
27:25also literally decades old but all the
27:27bits are there we just got to put them
27:28together better and that's what got me
27:30sort of super excited about the Yu uh
27:33project doing that at least setting it
27:34up as as I would want it's very
27:36self-serving too I was going through new
27:38hardware at a ferocious rate trying to
27:40find the perfect laptop and the perfect
27:43desktop so I literally ordered I think
27:44I've gone through six or seven different
27:46laptops right I've gone through at least
27:48four different desktops just trying to
27:50find the perfect combination for for me
27:52right um and setting everything up every
27:56time was a pain in the ass and now half
27:58the audience is going to scream this is
27:59what NYX is for and then I look at NYX
28:03and I go like yeah NYX is one of those
28:05essentialist I don't care about how
28:06things work I don't care about how deep
28:08the complexity is like solve some
28:09problem again that's not me like I I
28:12can't do that I don't want to learn a
28:14whole programming language is to set up
28:15the configuration um I want to build on
28:18something that's mostly stock I actually
28:21think except for a Aesthetics buntu is a
28:23very fine operating system and in fact I
28:25don't even want to slag on it too much
28:27you don't have to do that that much to
28:28default auntu to Spruce it up a bit but
28:31you can do a bunch and that's why I
28:33tried to do N I tried to set up like
28:34what would my ideal setup could be can I
28:37make it a one command replication so
28:39that when I get a new laptop in because
28:41I want to try another one I'm G to be up
28:43and running in like 15 20 minutes rather
28:46than two hours um and and I think I I
28:50certainly arrived there for me myself um
28:53and that that just gave me the
28:55confidence to think you know what I
28:57think we could get a lot of people
28:58interested in this I think a lot of
29:00people could see that you don't actually
29:03have to put down the Mac you don't have
29:05to be negative on the Mac choice you can
29:08still go like hey Apple does a fine job
29:10making Hardware they really do they make
29:12some great Hardware but there's also
29:14other good Hardware out out there and
29:16some of it makes different tradeoffs
29:18like I remember when I first um set up
29:20my framework 13 laptop and I went like
29:23oh [ __ ] a matte screen I haven't seen
29:26one of those since like 20 8 or whenever
29:29the last MacBook was able to have that
29:32and I was like this is really nice I had
29:34totally forgotten that that existed
29:36because it didn't exist or doesn't exist
29:38anymore in the Mac um laptop world you
29:40can sit outside and and be in the Sun
29:43and not have to see your reflection so
29:45easily right right um and and then I
29:48went like oh I really like this keyboard
29:51also this keyboard like um the framework
29:54laptop keyboard is 1.5 millimeters of
29:56travel instead of I think the Mac one is
29:58is half a millimeter of travel um like
30:01this feels so much nicer to type on
30:03again it was actually a little almost
30:05nostalgic this it felt very much like
30:06the original PowerBook keyboards I think
30:09they probably also had 1.5 millimeters
30:10of travel and I just went like okay the
30:13framework is not a unibody design so not
30:16everything just feels like it's carved
30:18out of one piece of aluminum but it does
30:20mean I can change my Ram which I
30:23instantly did and upgrade it to like 96
30:25gigabytes just because I could and it
30:27cost like $120 or something like if you
30:31can even imagine what Apple would charge
30:33for 96 gigabytes is probably in
30:34thousands of dollars anyway did that oh
30:36you can change the the SSD you can
30:39change the freaking CPU you can change
30:42the battery in like whatever 90 seconds
30:46and and most recently I've changed the
30:47screen I mean that's something I didn't
30:49even never contemplated that that would
30:52be a possibility you can change the
30:53screen to a better screen in your
30:55freaking laptop um so I realized that
30:59having been in the Mac world for so long
31:02had kind of just narrowed the sense of
31:04possibilities that there are different
31:06trade-ups that you can go like yeah the
31:07Mac is a good machine the M chips I mean
31:11pretty amazing right like they've really
31:12started a new Renaissance for for um
31:15laptops and brought the competition to a
31:17new level and done wonders for for
31:19battery but you know what um as much as
31:22I love a long battery who doesn't love a
31:24long battery right I actually care more
31:26about a matte screen than a good good
31:28keyboard which is a thing I didn't even
31:30think I was in the market for I didn't
31:32even realize that that was a thing you
31:34could select and I think this whole
31:36Linux journey journey has just made me
31:38realize oh man there's actually a very
31:40vibrant computer industry I mean this is
31:43total joke about Mac people right like
31:45that they just they don't know what else
31:47is out there they know know what the
31:48options are and whatever but it was also
31:50kind of true um and yet being able to
31:54arrive at that place even though it
31:55started from a negative place and then
31:56going like do you know what I I don't
31:59want to be here because I don't want to
32:01be somewhere else I want to be here
32:03because I want to be here and um The
32:05Journey started because I didn't want to
32:07be somewhere else but it's thankfully F
32:09or not even finally after a few weeks
32:11ended up oh I want to be here because I
32:12want to be here I really like this
32:14framework 13 laptop that's it's been a
32:17while since I've really been
32:19affectionate about a laptop I think the
32:21last one was probably the the MacBook
32:23Air 11 in I me for whatever reason I
32:25just loved that machine it was totally
32:27underpowered had all sorts of trade-offs
32:28but just a great form factor um so I
32:31realized oh I can fall in love with
32:33laptop hardwork and then falling in love
32:35with an operating system I actually
32:37thought if you were to had asked me a
32:39year ago I would thought like do you
32:41know what I'm I'm MAC until I retire um
32:45so it's just been an exciting super
32:47exciting journey to discover all these
32:49things to realize just the body of work
32:53that's available and to align my own
32:55body of work more closely with that I
32:57think that's also part of it I've
32:59literally spent my entire career making
33:01open source
33:02software um yet being quite removed from
33:07one of the key pieces of Open Source
33:10software that's out there that's Linux
33:11and all the stuff that comes uh
33:13Downstream from that um not withstanding
33:16again that a lot of these terminal tools
33:18including lazy git and other things do
33:20work just fine on the Mac um but I think
33:23you're more removed from it than you are
33:24in the Linux world there's so many so
33:27many there that you touched on I'd love
33:29to into so um let's talk about open
33:32source so you mentioned
33:34configuration I get the sense that in
33:37open source tools configuration is a bit
33:39more unwieldy than what you'll have in
33:42proprietary software and uh even even
33:45with laser G I think it's just
33:47because some guy can just raise a poor
33:50request and say hey here's a config
33:51thing added for me and you're like well
33:53I guess that makes sense I can't think
33:55of a good reason not to have it and I do
33:57look at the the Laser Gate config now
33:59and I'm just like oh man like it's it's
34:01pretty big and uh you know
34:06uh I maybe it's just a a l maybe I need
34:09to be more of a Nazi when I come to
34:11reviewing those PO requests or something
34:12like that but um you did mention config
34:15before I was wondering is that what you
34:16were thinking about like what what is it
34:18that that um has struck you about like
34:21the complexity of configuration on a
34:22Linux machine yes that is a is a huge
34:26part and I think it is really TI to the
34:29archetype of the original Linux user who
34:31is all about maximum configuration um I
34:35want my bespoke thing just for me even
34:40if it takes me a hundred hours to set
34:42that up then I will have just just for
34:44me I don't share that Vision at all in
34:46fact I find that vision and I mean that
34:49in the best possible way off-putting
34:51because I find it very um inefficient on
34:56a planetary scale right you kind of
34:58scale it exactly I mean that in the
35:00sense of so I've been working on Ruby
35:02and rails for over 20 years now and one
35:04of the driving principles of Ruby and
35:05rails is convention over configuration
35:07that there's just a huge body of
35:09potential configuration knobs that if we
35:13require everyone to understand all of
35:15them and tweak them just right that's
35:17just a massive sinkhole of productive
35:21capacity they could have gone into
35:22better things and
35:24also when you look at the array of knobs
35:27avail aable that in itself is a signal
35:30to a large group of people who say this
35:32is not for me I don't want to understand
35:3412200 knobs and how I need to tweak him
35:37just right I want to have one knob and
35:39one selector I want to get on board with
35:41this train before I become an expert in
35:45in um Dwarf
35:47Fortress so that is
35:51a what I would categorize as a product
35:54sensibility I don't think there's a lot
35:57of there's not an excess of product
35:58sensibilities in the Linux World in my
36:01opinion there's a lot of other things
36:03and a lot of things are perhaps good
36:04because that product sensibility is not
36:05there but I think it is limiting to some
36:08extent and and I wanted to to counter
36:10that in part because that's how I driven
36:12my open source development rubyan rails
36:14is famously convention over
36:17configuration how can we just all decide
36:20that we will spend a long time trying to
36:22find if not the best then a very good
36:24default and then just go like most
36:27people shouldn't mess with that maybe
36:28there's not even a knob in fact it's
36:30funny we're working on a number of new
36:32open source tools right now and no knobs
36:36that's literally a design directive like
36:39we've been going through the we're
36:40building some proxy stuff for making it
36:41easier to sell rails applications so on
36:43and like the Natural Instinct for most
36:45programmers and and I have to push back
36:46against this is like oh this should
36:48probably just be a configuration and
36:49then I go like okay if it should um when
36:53would you pick one value over the other
36:55and i' say no no well I mean it should
36:56be eight eight is the right value
36:58because like that just is is nice but
37:00like in case someone wanted to change it
37:02like they could make it three and like
37:04no no we're not going to put a knob in
37:07until we can reasonably put ourselves in
37:10the mind of someone who wants to turn it
37:12for a really good reason and that really
37:15good reason has to be sort of an
37:16essential thing that isn't just because
37:18this was the first knob I discovered and
37:20I was actually trying to do the third
37:21thing but this is a way to get around it
37:24um reducing the total number of knobs
37:27has value in and of itself it makes a
37:30piece of software not just appear
37:32simpler but be simpler every single knob
37:35that can be turned is part of the power
37:38law of total configuration points if you
37:41have five knobs and they can all be
37:43turned 10 ways you're 10 to the fifth
37:47right in all the permutations the more
37:49permutations the more complexity both
37:51literally in Ty there's more places for
37:53bugs to come in um but also mentally and
37:55conceptually and they actually it's the
37:57mental conceptual part I have the most
38:00interest in protecting that like we are
38:04fragile squishy humans who can only hold
38:06so much in working memory the more knobs
38:10the more this piece of software takes up
38:11in here the less room there is for
38:13everything I mean that's the other joke
38:15about Neo and Vim in general right like
38:17that you shove in all the keep bindings
38:19and there's actually literally no room
38:20for social
38:22skills um and and I mean that's a joke
38:24but it's also maybe a little bit true
38:27Maybe
38:28some of the complexity that we tolerate
38:30in one piece of software is preventing
38:34us or prohibiting us from assuming out
38:35further I'm a big proponent of
38:38conceptual compression because if we
38:40compress concept into smaller blocks
38:42that are easier to understand and
38:44remember there's room for more and if
38:47you can have room for More Concept
38:49Concepts literally in your head you can
38:51have room for a bigger and bigger
38:53picture and if your big picture can be
38:55so big as to Encompass like your entire
38:57application and your entire work method
39:00you can make more connections across
39:02different pieces and that's where a lot
39:04of the core Innovation comes from and
39:05that's where you see simplifications
39:08because oh I I know the box over here is
39:10related to this box this is why rails
39:12famously tries to not just tries but is
39:15a full stack framework it's trying to
39:17solve a large problem in a cohesive way
39:20let's solve the web application now
39:22that's a very ambitious very large
39:24problem um but R else goes like okay
39:26fine let's solve HTML generation let's
39:29solve database access let's solve email
39:32out let's solve email in let's solve
39:34talking on repb sockets
39:36let's the only way rails can remain
39:39understandable not just for me but for
39:41anyone else who wishes to adopt it is if
39:43we try our dampers to compress every one
39:46of those Concepts into smaller and
39:47smaller blocks until they fit and a
39:49large part of that compression is which
39:51knobs can we get rid of um so that's
39:55what helps drive my aversion to knobs
39:58and it's not like no that it shouldn't
40:01have any configuration points right like
40:03especially if you work on infrastructure
40:04tools like that's basically the whole
40:06thing it is right like you get rails and
40:07then you make your own app and you do it
40:09by using rails and changing things and
40:10whatnot but there's so much that I find
40:13to be incidental complexity right it's
40:16there because it ended up there not
40:19because it has to be there and if you
40:21think hard about the problem and if you
40:23keep it as a Top Value the compression
40:26is is is desirable you'll end up
40:29realizing oh [ __ ] we could get rid of
40:31that one we could get rid of that one we
40:33could get rid of that one so on the one
40:35hand you're shrinking the space of the
40:37solution conceptual space while
40:38enlarging what it can do that opposite
40:42direction is really intoxicating I mean
40:46that's basically what I love doing
40:48perfect so I do want to talk about rails
40:51um I I want to know like what's your
40:54perspective on why node doesn't have a
40:57rails competitor like they've had so
40:59much time to get their [ __ ] together
41:01you've got ja everyone has to learn
41:03JavaScript to be able to do front end
41:04stuff unless of course they're like you
41:06know using hot wire and they're not
41:07using stimulus um but what's going on
41:12there like do you what do you do you
41:13think that there some some advantage
41:15that rails has in terms of just like
41:17what the goal is like maybe there's a
41:19difference in goals or maybe it's just a
41:21time difference like what explains that
41:25I think it a question of values and
41:27those values whether those values are
41:29able to be um kept in check and integral
41:33to the ecosystem Ruby already when I
41:37showed up had very distinct and clear
41:39values uh Ruby's primary objective is
41:43for happy programmers it's a very
41:45strange odd and at the time novel
41:49objective to have near if not at the top
41:51of your list of priorities of how you
41:53design a program language you could have
41:54all sorts of other things you could have
41:55runtime efficiency you could you could
41:57have size of executable you could have
41:59memory performance all sorts of things
42:01that people used to have up there right
42:03Java had like let's prevent anyone from
42:05from doing anything dangerous all the
42:07these things Ruby had happy programmers
42:10at the top of the list that's first of
42:12all weird and by being weird it is bound
42:16to be um not mainstream which meant that
42:22the people who chose Ruby certainly in
42:24the early days and i' I'd actually argue
42:26still to this day are choosing Ruby
42:28because they really want to they're
42:30really attracted to that worldview that
42:34programmers are really important and you
42:35should write code first for programmers
42:36and we're willing to sacrifice runtime
42:38performance
42:39for lyrical code for poetic code get
42:43very foreign to I think a lot of those
42:45Linux folks the long beers like they
42:47would go like what did you just say
42:49right go like that just sounds nuts but
42:53that um tribe if you will those tribal
42:57values were were both intact Matt's the
43:01creative R was able to keep them intact
43:03because he had control over the the
43:04language and no one was forcing him to
43:06grow market share or whatever and rails
43:09was able to show up at the right time
43:12inside that community and fuse with
43:15those values to a point that again
43:17anyone choosing to pick up rails um they
43:21were making an active Choice that's not
43:24true with JavaScript as you just said
43:26everyone one has to use JavaScript so
43:29JavaScript becomes this Melting Pot
43:32where folks with very very different
43:34ideas of what constitutes good programs
43:37show up and actually both a have to
43:40collaborate to some extent but B mostly
43:42don't that you get all of this
43:45fragmentation because you're forcing
43:48essentially the entire world to show up
43:50in one language community and they're
43:53never going to agree on anything nor
43:54should they this is the key point in an
43:57earlier iteration of myself I thought
44:00very imperialistic about program
44:03language that you could sort of just
44:05conquer and mind share because if you
44:07just taught them the gospel of whatever
44:09you were really excited about they were
44:10going to convert and there's some of
44:12that I mean people do convert program
44:14languages when they find it appealing
44:15but there are also a bunch of nonsense
44:17in that in the sense that um different
44:20people just wire differently and I think
44:22that's probably if we could find to be
44:24true maybe even true on a physical level
44:26like the literal wires of neurons and
44:28whatever are different but it's
44:30certainly true at a intellectual level
44:33some people are like literally
44:35incredulous to the idea that you can
44:37write
44:39successful um software that doesn't have
44:42uh static typing yeah they they like I
44:45know I know many such people yeah
44:47exactly where they literally like their
44:49mind is not capable of comprehending
44:51someone making large successful systems
44:54in something like Ruby like forever
44:56their mind of it will be like that's a
44:58toy language or whatever what about all
45:00these bugs and what's so fascinating
45:03about that world view is that it exists
45:05in direct conflict with reality direct
45:08conflict with like literally Decades of
45:09proof literally hundreds of billions of
45:11dollars in Enterprise Value all these
45:13things can exist and they can still like
45:15no no no but you don't understand you
45:17have to have types and that's what
45:20JavaScript is laboring under it's
45:22laboring under the fact that those
45:24people who simply cannot even conceive
45:26of the fact you can write successful
45:28software first of all they have to use
45:29JavaScript with which they then refuse
45:32and then they start using typescript
45:33right I mean I've actually I don't know
45:36if I've ever seen another programming
45:37environment where there's such a disdain
45:41for sort of the underlying system from
45:43certain dialects like there are a bunch
45:45of typescript users who are really not
45:48fans of JavaScript that to me is
45:50fascinating yeah and vice versa as well
45:52yeah right right um I don't I don't know
45:55if that's it maybe it's is that true in
45:57list dialects I don't know enough about
45:59that or small talk dialects or some
46:00other maybe it is but either way that's
46:03not the case obviously in Ruby right
46:05like there's no there is sorbet for
46:07example a project that's trying to add
46:09types but it's it's there's not the big
46:11conflicts that you get in JavaScript
46:13because everyone is forced to use the
46:15same thing in JavaScript so you could
46:16never have a rails because you could
46:18never have like a critical mass of Mind
46:21share capture because no single concept
46:24or approach to software development can
46:26ever get that
46:27because the people who are using the
46:28language are too different you're bound
46:30to have all these tribal sections and
46:33then when you have all these tribal
46:34sections you're gonna have this constant
46:37churn constant churn and jogging for
46:40position and problems of collaboration
46:43and and interaction and so it's actually
46:46to my opinion kind of a Marvel that it's
46:48gone as well as it has if you will but
46:51to me it also does explain why we will
46:53never see rails in JavaScript I think um
46:57I think about the person like like uh
47:00how personality relates to programming
47:02language choices all the time because in
47:04my mind I'm always thinking about like
47:06the Big Five personality model where
47:08it's like openness of experience and
47:10disagreeableness and all that yes and um
47:13I think about how I made lazy get in go
47:16just because I mean there was no good
47:18reason I just like H it's a new language
47:20or I'll do it in go and then I found out
47:23when I look at like the Reddit the
47:24subreddit for go Stu and on hack is like
47:26I have nothing in common with any of
47:27these people like all the values of this
47:29community is just there's just no
47:31overlap yeah and uh it is funny because
47:35I think that I think about go developers
47:37and they're very pragmatic they're very
47:40um uh I would say low in openness and
47:43not in a pejorative sense but they're
47:45just very um they're about getting the
47:47work done and shipping code and all that
47:50stuff and um I find that it uh it's just
47:55interesting that that
47:57um like you were saying with Linux in
47:59the early days of something there's a
48:02selection bias effect because people
48:03will go to something because they want
48:05to be doing that thing as opposed to
48:06being forced upon them and that's how
48:08you can get these uh these communities
48:11which have which are very um
48:14homogeneous and I just find it
48:16fascinating I find it really amazing
48:18because I was just like you I used to
48:19think like surely there is a one true
48:21way and maybe it's hll it's like I don't
48:24know maybe it is but maybe we'll find
48:26out but now just thinking no I think it
48:27actually is just all just a reflection
48:30of the diversity of of personalities and
48:33perspectives of of different people I
48:35100% agree and I think it it is a great
48:37way to tie it to some of those
48:40fundamental psychological structures and
48:42coordination like we don't expect people
48:45to be the same in other domains we don't
48:47expect every person to like rap music or
48:50jazz music or classical there are just
48:52different people like different sorts of
48:53Music first of all that doesn't mean
48:55that jazz is right and rap is wrong or
48:59however you want to put it or the same
49:00in so many other Fashions or clothing or
49:04or different hobbies and so forth yet we
49:06have this mistaken notion I think a lot
49:08of is rooted in in the miscategorization
49:12of most modern software development as
49:14software engineering that it is in an
49:16engineering uh practice and that you can
49:19arrive at like the best way of erecting
49:23the angle on this pillar no no you can't
49:27software is just not that it has
49:28elements of that it has fractions of
49:31that mixed up into it some parts of
49:33software development is more like
49:34software engineering um and other parts
49:36are very little like software
49:38engineering and I think it took me a
49:41while too to realize this right it took
49:43me a while too to realize oh just
49:45because I've had this Transcendent
49:46experience discovering Ruby does not
49:49mean that everyone else will because
49:51again if you did a big five like I would
49:53come out in a certain configuration and
49:55that's part of the reason I like Ruby if
49:57you take someone who's at the opposite
49:59ends of all that they'd hate it and they
50:01do and they do that's what I found too
50:04right like there's tons of people think
50:05Ruby is a terrible language either they
50:08think um too much flexibility too much
50:10rope to hang yourself too too
50:12inefficient too slow like there's all
50:14these laundry list of issues you can
50:17line up and again all that I was going
50:21to say animosity and sometimes it is but
50:23that it doesn't even have to be it can
50:25simply just be like I don't like this um
50:28coexists in a world where literally
50:31there's over a million rails
50:32applications made in there hundreds of
50:34billions of dollars in Enterprise Value
50:36and put all that aside tons of people
50:39who are madly in love with Ruby as their
50:41favorite programming language of all
50:42time including your trly and once I kind
50:45of realized that or it became apparent
50:48to me over the years I realized you know
50:49what this must be true on the other side
50:51too I guarantee there are people who
50:53feel the way I feel about Ruby about go
50:57probably tot people in love with it okay
51:01good I I'm not sure that is actually
51:03true for every single programming
51:04language in the world um but I'm sure
51:07there is I'm sure brain [ __ ] and uh yeah
51:12um for small enough and I'm sure that is
51:14true and it's also true that there are
51:16tons of people who never fall in love
51:18would never use those terms to describe
51:20their relationship to the I just use the
51:22best tool for the job program language
51:24that they've chosen to like I don't even
51:26have a emotional relationship breaks my
51:28heart to hear that with my with my
51:30tooling right like there's tons of
51:31people who who are like that and like we
51:33all get to coexist in the world and even
51:36more to the point the world is so much
51:38more interesting because this is true
51:42holy [ __ ] the world would be boring as
51:44hell if first of all we were all the
51:46same on the big five first of all it
51:47would be fragile it would be mono um
51:50branch of sort of history and nature we
51:53would be um susceptible to all sorts of
51:55plagues that could about the whole thing
51:57da d da um but it was also just you'd
52:00exhausted very quickly like I kind of
52:02feel like I do know most of what
52:04happened or has happened in Ruby land
52:07I'm very well versed in all of it and
52:09then occasionally I dive into another
52:11Community like go for example we've been
52:12using go for a bunch of proxies and so
52:14on and I've sort of just dabbled in
52:16there and I go like it's like taking a
52:18trip to Japan yeah when I did that for
52:21the first time in I think 2005 and I
52:23just went like this is a hugely
52:26fascinating yet totally alien country
52:29and culture and I love going here for
52:32that fact exactly um the more the world
52:36homogenizes in that sense the more we
52:38make everything just the same part of
52:41everything the less interesting it
52:43becomes I I want the internet in
52:45particular and I think the internet one
52:48of its main
52:50amazing accomplishments is that it's a
52:53runtime that is indifferent to its
52:55programming envirment I don't even know
52:57if there's literally ever been another
52:59major platform in the history of
53:01computing that's like that I don't think
53:02so where literally you can programming
53:05any of the I don't know how many
53:06programming languages been in the world
53:08hundreds any of the hundred programming
53:10languages ever invented can produce
53:12things that create web applications
53:14where the user doesn't mind or care and
53:16the web as a method of delivering
53:19application also doesn't care HTTP
53:22doesn't give a [ __ ] what you use to
53:24produce the text that down the wire
53:27whether you use go or Ruby or brain [ __ ]
53:29or Amos it doesn't care and that creates
53:33such a Level Playing Field for all these
53:36communities to sprout in a million
53:39different directions like there is not
53:41this homogenizing force not withstanding
53:43JavaScript and I mean this is one of the
53:45reasons I like and don't like JavaScript
53:47JavaScript has been a little bit of a
53:48homogenizing force and has had a level
53:50of gravity because it has this blessed
53:53position in the browser right that I
53:54don't actually think is super healthy I
53:57like JavaScript JavaScript is actually
53:59my second favorite language but I don't
54:01like that part of it I like individual
54:04communities who know what they are and
54:07embrace that fully I don't want go
54:09programmers to suddenly discover Dynamic
54:12typing and try to make the go language a
54:15duck type language no no no no please
54:17keep go with that integral vision of
54:20what it is and how it's built and the
54:22same thing with Ruby you're going to add
54:24static typing to the core language over
54:25my [ __ ] dead body like I will
54:27literally go Matts if you're listening I
54:29will literally go to your house and
54:31knock on your door and do a hunger
54:33protests outside of it or maybe even
54:36more to the point I'll just stop using
54:38the new versions
54:40so
54:41allowing especially the things that are
54:43pure not all languages are I I have a
54:45sense that on the spectrum of purity of
54:49in like PHP which is a language I have
54:51great affection for this was the first
54:53language I really got proficient in it
54:54was the first language I made full
54:57products in and made money within it was
54:59a language that turned me into a
55:00professional programmer I love a lot
55:01about that I wouldn't necessarily say
55:03that it is a language sort of with a
55:05high degree
55:06of structural integrity and I don't mean
55:09in the sense that it's rickety I mean
55:11that it doesn't have like U rigid
55:14ideology bound lines it's been like oh
55:16do you know what some people want some
55:17static typing let's just add that in
55:19some people want to add this method ah
55:21who cares if the naming is 100%
55:22consistent add it in it's it'll be fine
55:26don't change I mean in fact if anything
55:28I think PHP unfortunately did change a
55:29little too much towards things that were
55:32perhaps perceived as more serious
55:35engineering I think adding types to PHP
55:38in my opinion was a mistake um but
55:41anyway that's a different or it is
55:44related but just this idea that um we
55:48should embrace our
55:49differences and Ruby and rails have
55:52really been fortunate in that regard
55:54that it was
55:56um it was thrust into the
55:58Limelight it never achieved sort of
56:01mainstream not only dominance but even a
56:04footprint um and that allowed it to be
56:07really strongly andly sound like no very
56:12few programms were forced into rubyan
56:14rails against their will with a mission
56:17to then change it and make it there's
56:19been some attempts but the immune system
56:22in Ruby and rails is very strong at this
56:24point and I don't see that happen um and
56:28I think that's good and I think this is
56:30why I love working with the web is
56:32because it literally celebrates that it
56:35celebrates the idea that it could be a
56:37commodor 64 that's replying back with
56:41http1 and like it'll run it just fine
56:43that's amazing I agree um I want to
56:46switch to talking about once this is a
56:49line of products that that uh yeah
56:51that's is it 37 signals that put this
56:53out is that right yes um so just as a
56:57quick Preamble it's basically like a
56:59line of products that says like hey this
57:01thing you're paying a monthly
57:02subscription for that's kind of dumb
57:04because you're like renting as opposed
57:06to owning something um why does the
57:09world need
57:12once you did a good job explaining the
57:15basic premise here is I think the world
57:17is drowning in subscription software and
57:21there's some irony to that because 37
57:23signals became a software company as a
57:26subscription software company we were
57:29very early in the SAS World well before
57:32the term SAS was even invented this is
57:34all the way back in 2004 February of
57:372004 when we released I think actually
57:39on the same day as Facebook uh base camp
57:42our project management tool which 20
57:43years later is still going strong and is
57:46still SAS um and then we've done other
57:49SAS tools since and I like that but I've
57:52also grown to dislike the fact that
57:54everything is sass like for example I
57:56um I like photography and I think the
57:58best photography app is Adobe
58:00Lightroom why the [ __ ] is Adobe
58:03Lightroom a subscription piece of
58:04software for many years it was not it
58:06was just something I bought and then it
58:08turned into this subscription I'm like
58:10okay I guess it's just this one thing
58:12but it's never the just this one thing
58:14right especially for organizations like
58:17I thought I saw a stat and this sounds
58:19incredible maybe it's too incredible to
58:21be true but that the average like
58:24midsized Enterprise has 80 SAS apps that
58:27they're paying for 80 I know that is not
58:30an exaggeration so as a quick plug my my
58:33the company I founded called subel
58:35solves the same problem as once but just
58:37by not trying to completely solve the
58:40problem but just by like plugging in and
58:42looking at all your SAS apps and seeing
58:43where you're wasting money and we've
58:45seen from plugging into people like oh
58:47my God companies with 10 people could
58:49have like just dozens of SAS apps and
58:52it's just crazy and I think it's that
58:55weight that's f finally it's actually
58:57interesting how these things like what
58:59is it like a drop in the water somewhere
59:00because I kind of feel like the
59:02institutional awareness of SAS overload
59:04came around the same time as the
59:06consumer awareness of subscription
59:09overload right like we went through this
59:11age where everyone had like five
59:12subscriptions to different streaming
59:14services and then they had five other
59:15things and then at some point they
59:17realized holy [ __ ] I'm spending half my
59:18paycheck on subscription software not
59:21owning anything right and unlike the U
59:23World economic Forum they were not happy
59:26they didn't own they owned nothing but
59:28they weren't happy about it yeah um and
59:30I think there's a growing awareness
59:31inside uh companies as well that you
59:35know what things got a little out of
59:36hand it got a little out of hand with
59:38first of all too many overlapping tools
59:39it
59:40was one of the great advantages of SAS
59:43is its low friction right you can sign
59:45up for a piece of software and you can
59:46start using it like literally seconds
59:48later we rely on that at Base Cam this
59:50is why been successful over all these
59:51other all these years and many others as
59:53well but that friction can also get so
59:56so low that it's so easy to sign up for
59:58like five different packages that all do
1:00:00overlapping [ __ ] why do you have so many
1:00:02pieces of software where then your data
1:00:05is spread to the wings it is a little
1:00:07over here a little over there a little
1:00:09over here first of all that's I think I
1:00:11just have something fundamental about
1:00:13that that doesn't seem like a good idea
1:00:15I'm not sure I can articulate 100% why
1:00:17but like having all the data required to
1:00:19run our operation spread across
1:00:21literally 80 different tools there's
1:00:24something about that that doesn't seem
1:00:25depend
1:00:26all the it's like dependencies that's
1:00:28exactly that's a great way of thinking
1:00:30about it I hadn't thought about that yes
1:00:31dependencies um which by the way that
1:00:33was one of those differences between the
1:00:35Ruby world and the JavaScript world like
1:00:37odd even is a dependency yeah yeah like
1:00:41inconceivable that that level of
1:00:43functionality would be packaged as an
1:00:45individual dependency in Ruby land we
1:00:47deal with much corser grained thing
1:00:48anyway once tries to address this at the
1:00:52route where we go like do you know what
1:00:54SAS is in large part
1:00:56um popular because the web is so good
1:01:00the web is such a great software
1:01:02development platform that a large part
1:01:05of SAS winning was because the web was
1:01:08just better the browser is an amazing
1:01:10runtime platform it's so easy for people
1:01:12to understand just the innovation of
1:01:14like having one navigational interface
1:01:16for all the different apps and so on
1:01:18just incredible right um but that got
1:01:20wrapped up in SAS and it needn't be it
1:01:24got they got married right from the
1:01:26beginning a business model got married
1:01:28with a software distribution platform
1:01:31when that's not necessarily how it has
1:01:33to be there are different business
1:01:34models that can plug into that
1:01:36distribution platform and for a while
1:01:40SAS seemed like the only option because
1:01:43the other ways of Distributing web
1:01:44software were really complicated um I
1:01:47remember getting a preview of how GitHub
1:01:49Enterprise used to work back in the
1:01:51early 2010s before
1:01:53containerization it was like a
1:01:55Consulting project it was like
1:01:56installing sap it was like all right
1:01:58let's put apart a long period of time
1:02:00you're going to have your own Linux
1:02:01machines and like we're going to send
1:02:03people on site I don't know if they
1:02:04actually send people onite it was very
1:02:06laborious process of doing things and
1:02:09then we've had this string of
1:02:11incremental improvements in the ability
1:02:14to package software web software and
1:02:17distribute it containerization is
1:02:18obviously the big one we started talking
1:02:20about Docker Docker is literally the one
1:02:21to thank for the majority The Lion Share
1:02:24of all this all of a sudden you could
1:02:26take all this hardship of like ah how
1:02:28does it run on this operating system
1:02:30that operating system what are what are
1:02:31the dependencies it needs and just one
1:02:34[ __ ] file one file and then you could
1:02:37do like Docker use and you could even
1:02:39make it a single command line whatever I
1:02:41thought that innovation has already been
1:02:43internalized by programmers for like oh
1:02:44I need MySQL let's run it through darker
1:02:47it's so easy and there's been attempts
1:02:49here and there at doing it with
1:02:51commercialized software I I think gitlab
1:02:53and other things have been distributed
1:02:54this way but the target audience was Al
1:02:58always heavily technical developer type
1:03:00people and I just went like at some
1:03:02point things have gotten so good they've
1:03:05gotten so easy I bet you we can boil
1:03:08this down to one command I bet you we
1:03:10can boil down the entire installation
1:03:12process from like you start with a
1:03:14virgin auntu machine no dependencies at
1:03:18all you run one freaking command and
1:03:21you'll have a once product up and
1:03:22running and updating auto updating and
1:03:25all the other things that people like
1:03:26about Tas software right but you will
1:03:28own the software it will run on your
1:03:31computers you will own the data no one
1:03:34will have access to the data and it
1:03:36youres forever I can't put you out of
1:03:38business right I can't like Google you I
1:03:41can't Google graveyard you is what I
1:03:42meant to say like whatever 300 400
1:03:45Services they've killed they kill a
1:03:47dozen every year that can't happen to
1:03:49you if you own the darker image like
1:03:52it's literally you and I guarantee you I
1:03:54shouldn't guarantee anything I've been
1:03:56getting into Retro Gaming and one of the
1:03:58things that amaz wait wait wait a second
1:03:59which what games are we talking about
1:04:01here oh we're talking about um basically
1:04:04these sort of things these Retro Gaming
1:04:06handhelds things that can run everything
1:04:08all the way back to the beginning of um
1:04:12of gaming history and one of the games
1:04:13I've been playing recently is um um
1:04:17Space Invaders and um you know what's
1:04:19the the main one I'm think asteroids
1:04:22asteroids is from I think
1:04:231978 um I'm not playing a version of
1:04:27asteroids I'm not playing a
1:04:29reimplementation of asteroids I'm
1:04:31playing [ __ ] asteroids as it was
1:04:34written in the mid 70s before I was born
1:04:38in the Atari offices that code is
1:04:41running on my thing today that's crazy
1:04:44that's amazing it is I mean I don't
1:04:47think people realize just the amount of
1:04:49things that had to come together for
1:04:50this whatever sub1 device to be able to
1:04:53run the original code
1:04:56of a computer from the 70s that's insane
1:05:00and it gives me such hope that like this
1:05:02version of campfire campfire is the
1:05:04first one app it's a chat application we
1:05:07basically our main realization on this
1:05:09like subscription overload was actually
1:05:11slack I heard about some slack bills and
1:05:13I like I couldn't believe them what do
1:05:15you mean you paying tens of thousands of
1:05:16dollars to run whatever a few thousand
1:05:19people on on slack that just sounds so
1:05:20[ __ ] crazy like this is such a
1:05:22commodity piece of software yet you're
1:05:23being charged thousands and thousands of
1:05:25dollars in some case millions of dollars
1:05:27I've talked to Toby at at Shopify his uh
1:05:30slack bill is just unfathomably large
1:05:33and I just went like okay let's start
1:05:35there let's make essentially like a an
1:05:388020 version of slack like slack does
1:05:41about 400 trillion things and it's a
1:05:43very good piece of software again I
1:05:44don't have to say anything negative
1:05:45about slack it just it does a lot of
1:05:46things and a lot of people don't even
1:05:48need an iota of those things um can we
1:05:51make a installable software package an
1:05:54alternative to slack for them that they
1:05:57can buy once and then they can stall run
1:05:59own their own data and all the things
1:06:02and then I can have this Vision in my
1:06:04head that in
1:06:062079 someone's going to be [ __ ]
1:06:08running that they're going to be running
1:06:10it just like asteroids just running on
1:06:11my thing now from the 78 and they're run
1:06:14it for two reasons one is doer has now
1:06:17reached uh escape velocity doer is going
1:06:19to be around forever I mean forever is a
1:06:21long time but I would bet good money
1:06:23that's going to be around 50 years y
1:06:25it's like we still have Cobalt code and
1:06:27or whatever it's just such a wonderful
1:06:29idea and a way to encapsulate software
1:06:31very akin to what's happening in the um
1:06:33in the restro gaming world and then the
1:06:35other thing is I bet you that in 50
1:06:37years you can still render a web page
1:06:40from 19 97 and it will render the same
1:06:44way that these two both this way of
1:06:48packaging software and this way of
1:06:49running software have reached such a
1:06:51critical mass and have such an
1:06:53Institutional allegiance to backw
1:06:55compatibility that it's going to last
1:06:57forever do you know what I can almost
1:06:59guarantee you I mean that's not exactly
1:07:02a stretch here the version of slack you
1:07:04run today there's no [ __ ] way that
1:07:06runs in 50 years yeah I would give
1:07:09there's good odds it's not even first of
1:07:11all actually if you go back what is that
1:07:13two years when was the last major slack
1:07:14redesign I think it was like a year ago
1:07:16or something ton of people did not like
1:07:18that redesign right the version of slack
1:07:20that literally existed two years ago is
1:07:22never going to exist again no one's ever
1:07:24going to be able to run it again if
1:07:27tooing run the new version or change
1:07:30else that's not a vision of software I
1:07:36like and it's almost enough to turn one
1:07:40to um stallman esque rants about
1:07:44software freedom and and whatnot um and
1:07:46it's one thing I've had to sort of
1:07:48discover over time where I went like
1:07:50there's a lot of software I never want
1:07:52to see updated yeah you know what I have
1:07:54a brother LH
1:07:572364 whatever printer I never ever want
1:08:01to update the firmware in that [ __ ]
1:08:02thing like that solves a problem in a
1:08:04way I have no interest in any
1:08:06improvements any changes any upgrades it
1:08:10just needs to do the thing I bought it
1:08:11from Until the End of Time preferably um
1:08:15there's a lot of software like that in
1:08:16fact this was informed by the fact that
1:08:18so we started 20 years ago the original
1:08:20version of base camp from that I started
1:08:23programming on in the summer of 2003
1:08:26um literally 20 years ago those original
1:08:29lines of codes at least a fair portion
1:08:30of them are still in production today
1:08:32for customers who signed up between
1:08:362004 and 2010 when we ran that original
1:08:39version we've chosen as a SAS provider
1:08:41to do this crazy thing of keeping that
1:08:44software running 12 no sorry uh 14 years
1:08:48after we stopped developing new features
1:08:50for it we're still running it for those
1:08:51existing customers it's by the way still
1:08:53a million-dollar business amazing that
1:08:55that thing can happen and but what's
1:08:57even more amazing is I will talk to
1:08:59customers of that software right um and
1:09:01I'll talk to them like um so what do you
1:09:03like do you still like Bas cam how do
1:09:04you use it and they were like we love
1:09:06Base Cam love Base Cam I love what you
1:09:08guys are doing and I'm like you know
1:09:10we've been doing things for 14 years
1:09:11right and they're like no no no no this
1:09:14thing I'm running this base camp that's
1:09:15the one I love they're not in the Market
1:09:17at all they can be some of them don't
1:09:19love Base Cam they just use it because
1:09:20that was whatever was running inertia
1:09:22does its thing right but there's also
1:09:23contingency of people who just really
1:09:25like version of Bas cam yeah and who
1:09:27[ __ ] am I to argue right why why
1:09:30shouldn't you be able to run that well
1:09:31with most SAS almost every piece of sash
1:09:34you can't you cannot run the original
1:09:37version of slack you cannot run the
1:09:39original version of whatever Google Docs
1:09:43you get an internally upgraded version
1:09:44and that has benefits let's not discount
1:09:47that but certainly also have drawbacks
1:09:49and the drawback in terms of choice and
1:09:52freedom for the individual user to stay
1:09:54with something that they like
1:09:56I find um increasingly problematic and
1:09:59once is our attempt of go swimming
1:10:03against the stream on that and going
1:10:05like do you know what it's not written
1:10:07in stone that web software has to be
1:10:09sass we could use the advantages in
1:10:13software packaging to make web software
1:10:15available in the same way that I used to
1:10:18be able to buy and install Adobe
1:10:20Lightroom that is a vision of computing
1:10:23whether it works or not is a completely
1:10:24different thing maybe not enough people
1:10:26want this or or whatever I think it's
1:10:28too early to tell in the early days of
1:10:30base camp you could certainly looked at
1:10:32our numbers and go like this SAS thing
1:10:34never going to take off so who knows
1:10:36Future's GNA tell but that's what I like
1:10:38working for I like to work for like
1:10:40these positive visions of what the
1:10:41future of software should look like um
1:10:44whether it's directly for developers
1:10:45Convention of configuration and all
1:10:47these things fewer knobs or it's in the
1:10:49consumer space or or commercial space
1:10:51with things like once um more more
1:10:55freedom and again it's such a stallman
1:10:58asque thing to say in a way that I
1:11:00perhaps would have ridiculed more like
1:11:0210 years ago because I hadn't seen the
1:11:05same things we hadn't seen the rise of
1:11:07Apple and Google Dominate and strangle
1:11:09distribution for mobile platforms we
1:11:11hadn't even conceived that that level of
1:11:13regression was possible when I started
1:11:15working with the web in 200 well
1:11:18actually I started working withb 95 but
1:11:20let's just say when I started working we
1:11:22started working on on subscription
1:11:24software at signals in
1:11:272003 the web was becoming the
1:11:29predominant software distribution
1:11:30platform for new software and new things
1:11:33mobile wasn't here yet it seemed for a
1:11:36golden moment like all software
1:11:39developers were going to have the
1:11:40freedom to distribute whatever software
1:11:41they wanted written in whatever language
1:11:43they wanted and had access to the
1:11:45premier um software Computing platform
1:11:49and then to our blessing and curse 2007
1:11:53happened and and Steve Jobs goes like
1:11:57repeat after me again it's an internet
1:11:59Communicator it's an iPod it's a what
1:12:03was the [ __ ] third thing camera it's
1:12:05camera maybe it was camera one three
1:12:08things right it's the iPhone and the
1:12:10iPhones again starts ramping slowly
1:12:12balama is laughing what do you mean $500
1:12:14from up sometimes this is stupid and
1:12:16then it's just Congress all right and
1:12:18then we end up now
1:12:192024 um actually let's just spool back
1:12:22three years before antitrust sort of got
1:12:25it Wheels running
1:12:272020 uh actually uh yeah 2020 we
1:12:29launched hey our email app right SAS app
1:12:32with mobile clients and I go like we
1:12:35have a good idea we're gonna compete
1:12:36with go with Gmail [ __ ] sounds like
1:12:39the stupidest idea in the world right
1:12:41what you're going to compete with a
1:12:42really good piece of email software
1:12:44that's [ __ ] free what are you insane
1:12:47anyway that's the mission we set out to
1:12:49to do and we thought like all right
1:12:50we're going to take the C battle against
1:12:51Google here and we realized oh no before
1:12:53you get to that boss you got to clear
1:12:55this lower boss and the boss is called
1:12:57apple and they guard access to the most
1:13:00popular in the US mobile computer
1:13:02amongst people who spend s money on
1:13:04software wait what we have we have to
1:13:07fight them even to have to write for
1:13:09users who want to buy our stuff to be
1:13:13allowed to install that software on
1:13:14their
1:13:15device what what do you mean this is
1:13:18[ __ ] crazy yet we had this prolonged
1:13:20battle where if it had turned out the
1:13:22other way we would literally that
1:13:25business would have gone out of business
1:13:26hey would not have been commercially
1:13:28viable if we didn't have a iPhone app um
1:13:3180% 85% even I think of paying users on
1:13:35Hay use Apple devices I mean they just
1:13:38have such a strangle hole right so you
1:13:39go like sh how did this happen how did I
1:13:43start my career and enjoy such success
1:13:46in a world where like if you have a good
1:13:48idea you just put it on the web and if
1:13:49people like it they buy it and you
1:13:51transact now there's this [ __ ] 800
1:13:54pound gorilla just standing in the
1:13:55middle saying first you pay me 30% and
1:13:58even if you do I don't like your app you
1:14:00can't sell to users what so um it's in
1:14:05some ways perhaps it's a curse like
1:14:07anyone who grew up as a software
1:14:09developer from probably what 2012 13
1:14:12forward like never knew another way like
1:14:15apple as this dominant force in software
1:14:17distribution was sort of just a fact of
1:14:19life I remember the before times I
1:14:22remember the web um I remember what it
1:14:25was like to be able to just have a good
1:14:27idea and put it online and be able to
1:14:29convince customers to buy it directly so
1:14:32that's again one of those positive
1:14:34Visions I want to continue to to fight
1:14:36for and that's where it all ties back
1:14:39into the Linux thing right where I go
1:14:41like do you know what I don't know if
1:14:43you saw the latest update of uh Mac OS
1:14:46you can no longer is it control click to
1:14:49start an application that has not been
1:14:50signed and verified by Apple what so
1:14:53they took out that hot or short key
1:14:56shortcut for starting software that has
1:14:59not been notorized by Apple now you have
1:15:01to go through a super convoluted step
1:15:04dance to figure out how do you actually
1:15:05allow the software that you've
1:15:07downloaded to run on your computer I'm
1:15:08aware of the like right click and click
1:15:10open is is that that's the one I think
1:15:12they're
1:15:13killing well I don't know I don't know
1:15:15what I'm gonna do now so again I think
1:15:18it's still physically possible you just
1:15:19have to do a deep I really don't like
1:15:21that I don't like that it's it's
1:15:26I don't like that [ __ ] at all either
1:15:27and what I like even less about the
1:15:29specifics of that is that I don't like
1:15:31the trajectory at all that Apple has
1:15:33been on for now quite a while and like
1:15:35it's not like they didn't tell us when
1:15:38when the iPad was really hitting its
1:15:39stride and I think it was mid 2010s uh
1:15:42Steve Cook at some point goes out and
1:15:44say the iPad is our
1:15:47idealized incarnation of what comput the
1:15:49future Computing should look like some
1:15:51ideal that should have been a [ __ ]
1:15:53chilling warning to anyone who cares
1:15:56about Computing yeah that a lock down
1:15:59device where you can basically do
1:16:00[ __ ] nothing that Apple doesn't allow
1:16:02you to do that's what they see as the
1:16:04future Pinnacle of computing [ __ ] me
1:16:08that is really dystopian in its literal
1:16:11sense of the word right now what's so
1:16:14fascinating is that okay so this is
1:16:16happening and this is before Apple even
1:16:18puts out the M1 chips on the laptop
1:16:19right like these are computers Apple
1:16:21makes good computers they've made leaps
1:16:23forward with computers they should be be
1:16:25our allies and that's actually what I
1:16:26thought they were for literally 20 years
1:16:28I was biggest apple Advocate and
1:16:31converted my half my student class I I
1:16:33started University in in what uh 2001
1:16:36got a Macbook there no sorry 2003 I had
1:16:40a Macbook everyone else had a PC
1:16:43everyone one MacBook right by the end of
1:16:46our study half and I I will take some
1:16:50personal credit for forcefully crusading
1:16:54imperialistic around going like that PC
1:16:56is dumb look at this iBook isn't it
1:16:59great um so we made we made
1:17:01advertisements for Apple Jason and I my
1:17:03business partner in I think 2006 or
1:17:05something recorded like an ad for Apple
1:17:07that they used on their developer side
1:17:09like we've been huge Apple Fans and I've
1:17:11been a huge Apple fan because I think
1:17:12they made good computers and I think
1:17:14they were aligned with people wanted to
1:17:16use those computers to build the kind of
1:17:18stuff that I wanted to build and then
1:17:19obviously first the iPhone happens and
1:17:21it's this blowa away success and then
1:17:23the iPad happens and it's also not the
1:17:25same success but still success and
1:17:27suddenly the Magus is minority part of
1:17:30the business and and you end up
1:17:32realizing as talking about mental models
1:17:35that can that can drift you end up
1:17:36realizing oh [ __ ] my mental model of
1:17:38Apple's wrong they're no longer on the
1:17:41same side of like Computing as I am they
1:17:45have a different vision of computing and
1:17:47um what's happening with the Mac now I
1:17:49think is just it's going to move every
1:17:52iteration is going to move closer to
1:17:54their ideal
1:17:55interpretation of what Computing should
1:17:56be and I think that is the literally 180
1:18:00degree opposite direction of where I
1:18:02want to go and that's what I
1:18:04find actually not just satisfying but
1:18:07holy [ __ ] what a relief that Linux
1:18:10exists I mean if Linux did not exist we
1:18:13would be in the same [ __ ] hole where I
1:18:16in in Mobile you can get get either
1:18:19poison or poison do you want Google do
1:18:21you want Apple both of them suck in
1:18:24terms of the
1:18:25future prospects of computing on on um
1:18:29on desktop you can either pick Apple or
1:18:32Windows or thankfully Linux yeah Linux
1:18:36sits there in the middle offering us a
1:18:38way to have actually a say on the future
1:18:40Computing
1:18:41um holy [ __ ] I mean thank you lus and
1:18:46everyone else over literally three
1:18:47decades um for making that choice
1:18:50possible otherwise I don't know if I'd
1:18:52just like chug it all out and go like
1:18:54all right I'm going back to potato
1:18:56farming or something yeah like I need my
1:18:58computer to understand that as far as
1:19:00it's concerned I'm God and I wish I wish
1:19:05on a Mac there was just a toggle I could
1:19:06I could I could toggle in the settings
1:19:08saying like I'm an adult like just let
1:19:10me do my [ __ ] but um yeah it is funny
1:19:14that things have just gotten worse I can
1:19:17even remember honestly even back when I
1:19:19was making video games in high school
1:19:21I'd make a game I'd export it to aexe
1:19:24file cuz the windows and then my
1:19:25antivirus would say this is a virus it's
1:19:27like how the [ __ ] could you possibly
1:19:29know or think that if I just made it so
1:19:33it's not on the white list that's right
1:19:35it's not been pre-approved to the party
1:19:36that's right and it's like when you're
1:19:39like wait I remember when um the first
1:19:43computer I got was an armstr um CPC and
1:19:47the [ __ ] thing booted into basic like
1:19:50the first thing you see you turn the
1:19:51thing on basic prompt cursors blinking
1:19:55what do you want to program today sir
1:19:57like literally you were in command of
1:19:59the thing on its most fundamental level
1:20:01now I do think there is and this goes to
1:20:03the point of whether the product
1:20:04sensibilities in the Linux Community has
1:20:06helped or hurt it or whatever um I do
1:20:09think there's there's room to recognize
1:20:10that Computing has gotten better for a
1:20:12lot of people there are a lot of people
1:20:13who would not be using computers if
1:20:15their computer still booted straight
1:20:16into basic right so we can recognize
1:20:19that and still like but there's a way to
1:20:21marriage what that was our ability to
1:20:24command the hardware if we said like hey
1:20:27do you know what jump the hardware would
1:20:29damn well jump that was Hardware wise
1:20:31possible not go like I'm sorry sir Apple
1:20:33has decided that jumping is not for
1:20:35today um like that's not um constraint
1:20:39that that's that's there but yeah
1:20:42unfortunately it doesn't seem like the
1:20:44the future of those mainstream platforms
1:20:46is in that direction and with Windows
1:20:48it's really interesting because windows
1:20:50I remember I switched to I switched to
1:20:52Apple originally because I was switching
1:20:54away from from Windows I hated the
1:20:57Microsoft of late 90s I despised the
1:21:00Bill Gates of the cut off their Air
1:21:03Supply era right just an
1:21:05absolute sort of stain on Computing I
1:21:08could not wait to get away I was very
1:21:10begrudgingly using a Windows machine at
1:21:12that time because I kind of felt like
1:21:14that was the only option the my beloved
1:21:16Amiga had kind of hit a dead end
1:21:18Commodore had gone bankrupt and all the
1:21:20other stuff um and then the Mac comes
1:21:22around with a a Unix powered operating
1:21:26system that does all those things and it
1:21:27has huge amounts of compromises right
1:21:29the first OS 10 machines were [ __ ]
1:21:32rough slow as hell those power PC 800
1:21:35megahertz CPUs were no match for what
1:21:38Intel could put out on on the PC side
1:21:41but I was like I don't care I don't care
1:21:43if it's G to be 50% slower I want a
1:21:46machine that isn't owned by Bill Gates
1:21:49um and now history is coming full circle
1:21:51around and I would actually categorize
1:21:53wind or my Microsoft that's the far
1:21:55lesser evil threat to the future of
1:21:58computing than uh Apple is I mean
1:22:01Microsoft even though I don't love
1:22:03everything they do certainly not
1:22:04everything around the AI stuff and
1:22:06whatnot but their their um respect for
1:22:10backwards compatibility oh I've I've
1:22:13grown very impressed with that the fact
1:22:15that you can run a Windows 95 program on
1:22:18a modern Windows machine today is
1:22:22nothing short of kind of incredible like
1:22:24that's that doesn't exist in the same
1:22:25way in the Mac World um so anyway all
1:22:29these things go around but but I got to
1:22:31the fact of like you know what
1:22:33um I want to be on a platform that is Mo
1:22:38it's it's like what you're saying about
1:22:39the the go thing you pick up go right
1:22:41you go like oh I kind of like this then
1:22:42you go into a go Community form and you
1:22:44go like oh these people are not like me
1:22:46at all they like very different things
1:22:47than me am I in the right room maybe I'm
1:22:50in the wrong room that's what I realized
1:22:52with apple I'm in the wrong room
1:22:55we're this room is not taking me towards
1:22:57the future of computing that I'd like to
1:22:59see Linux is and I had outdated mental
1:23:04models about what Linux was and how
1:23:07nerdy you had to be to figure it out and
1:23:09whether I could even could be an
1:23:10enjoyable place to be an aesthetically
1:23:12pleasing place to be and then I updated
1:23:15those mental models I realized holy [ __ ]
1:23:17it's not just good it's freaking great
1:23:20not without its flaws and drawbacks and
1:23:23whatever but it's freaking great and um
1:23:26and it's very aligned with the future
1:23:28Computing that I'm interested in oh man
1:23:31I was just yeah thrilled that that exist
1:23:33thrilled that there was this whole world
1:23:35for me to discover that's half the fun
1:23:37if you just I think that's part of the
1:23:38problem sometimes and I did the same
1:23:40problem the first thing I tried to do
1:23:42when I switched from the Mac to Linux
1:23:45was I tried to set up vs code to be a
1:23:47copy of textmate I tried to replicate my
1:23:51Mac environment exactly Ono one on Linux
1:23:55and that was always going to be a cheap
1:23:56copy yeah it was always going to fail I
1:23:58was always going to notice the ways
1:24:00where whatever the Mac gnome skin was
1:24:03not quite Pixel Perfect right you can't
1:24:05do it like that you're gonna end up
1:24:07feeling like you're just using the cheap
1:24:09version and that doesn't have a happy
1:24:11future um the in the Breakthrough for me
1:24:14was to realize all right you know what
1:24:15I'm gonna adop Linux on Linux terms I'm
1:24:19gonna I'm not going to remap my uh super
1:24:23key to be the ALT key such that it fits
1:24:25my muscle memory from a Mac keyboard
1:24:28that's funny cuz I have done that and I
1:24:30have been noticing that it is kind of
1:24:31painful cuz it's not perfect it is and
1:24:35it's never going to be perfect and it's
1:24:36going to be this cheap copy and I don't
1:24:38think actually you're never going to end
1:24:40up in a place where you're there
1:24:42positively where like I'm on Linux
1:24:44because I want to be on Linux you're
1:24:45gonna end up with like I'm on Linux
1:24:47still because I'm really mad at Apple
1:24:49even though I want to make my Linux
1:24:50machine just like the Apple that no way
1:24:53to live no way to live
1:24:54so once I realized that and it took me a
1:24:57while um that was when the World opened
1:25:01that was when the oyster opened up and
1:25:04like there was just like [ __ ] pearls
1:25:05over over the place like what neovim oh
1:25:08[ __ ] oh lazy kid oh my god oh uh Isa
1:25:11what the hell oh alacrity oh selage what
1:25:16um and then I ended up going like oh oh
1:25:18yeah I I can live here like this could
1:25:21be a nice place to be um so that's what
1:25:23I would say for anyone who's considering
1:25:25this first of all you got to accept the
1:25:27changing Computing platforms especially
1:25:29if you've used one for as long as a lot
1:25:32of people have used the Mac like five
1:25:34years plus decade plus two decades plus
1:25:37you don't do that in a day that's not
1:25:39how the brain works that's not how it
1:25:41works with anything you don't break any
1:25:43habit muscle or otherwise in that amount
1:25:46of time you have to go almost upfront
1:25:48and say I'm going to give this two weeks
1:25:50and I'm going to stick with it even when
1:25:52I [ __ ] want to Chuck this thing out
1:25:53the window
1:25:55um I want to stick with this thing when
1:25:56it's even still frustrating because
1:25:58otherwise it's just not going to happen
1:25:59right you're going to get to day three
1:26:01and you're going to go I've wasted so
1:26:03much [ __ ] time and I still don't know
1:26:04how to close this file
1:26:06yeah so I I and and that's hard right
1:26:10that that is not an easy task to ask
1:26:12people to that this is why there is such
1:26:14inertia in Computing right I actually
1:26:16think people are more likely to change
1:26:18their insurance company than they are to
1:26:19change their Computing platform and
1:26:21people don't change their insurance
1:26:22companies very often unless they have a
1:26:25traumatic experiment that forces that
1:26:26inertia is one of the most powerful
1:26:28forces in the human Universe um which is
1:26:31why it's so important that to unlodge
1:26:34that we have to have like some
1:26:36emissaries some some early wanders who
1:26:39like hey I just came from your your
1:26:41tribe I used to live there for 20 years
1:26:42but I saw this Oasis over here um you
1:26:46should come over come over it's actually
1:26:49pretty cool um I made it nicer so like
1:26:52when you arrive at this Oasis it's going
1:26:54to be slightly easier for you to arrive
1:26:56than it was for me that's what I've been
1:26:57trying to do with amak coup um and and
1:27:01yeah come join the party and again not
1:27:03everyone will not everyone should uh
1:27:05lots of people love their Mac right like
1:27:08I you and I can perhaps talk about this
1:27:10a terrible future of computing whatever
1:27:11and then there are people go like no I
1:27:13think uh Apple I'm safe I feel safe yeah
1:27:16right like wouldn't it be better if
1:27:18Apple just decided whether every piece
1:27:19of software was safe or unsafe um and I
1:27:23mean okay fair enough like continue to
1:27:26buy your Apple that's an opinion it's
1:27:29not mine um and and let's self- select
1:27:33right like part of giving up on the
1:27:34Crusades in in programming languages is
1:27:36to give up the Crusade period like it
1:27:38just doesn't work to forcefully By The
1:27:40Sword convert people that way convert
1:27:42people by going like hey this Oasis is a
1:27:45lovely place to be if you're not happy
1:27:47with the city you're in and maybe it's a
1:27:49little dirty you should come out here um
1:27:51and maybe over time we will build up
1:27:52this Oasis and it'll come even bigger
1:27:54and you're going to help us and and all
1:27:56the things right and I think that that's
1:27:58that's where Linux is right now it's a
1:28:01really exciting time where something
1:28:02that's like actually ancient in
1:28:05Computing terms right like we've
1:28:06literally had like Linux for like half
1:28:08the time of the modern Computing era um
1:28:11is that right yeah almost right like
1:28:13from whatever late 50s to to now almost
1:28:16half the time uh Linux has been with us
1:28:19and to be able to ReDiscover that that
1:28:21gem exists um that is just incredible so
1:28:25anyone listening if they are on a Mac
1:28:27and especially if they're like
1:28:31terminally infected right they like
1:28:33living in the terminal and they like
1:28:34working with that you should give modern
1:28:36Linux a try I think if you give it if
1:28:38you commit to the two weeks I'd give it
1:28:40better than 50% odds that you're can
1:28:42stick totally all right do you have a
1:28:44question uh do you have time for a
1:28:46question on philosophy because I know
1:28:47you're one of the few programmers who
1:28:49also philosophies a lot online shoot so
1:28:55uh what is so bad about
1:28:59attachment that's a that's one of the
1:29:01big ones and it's a really interesting
1:29:03one because I think especially if you f
1:29:05think of Buddhism that's probably one of
1:29:07the main tenants of that where you go
1:29:09like attachment is the root of suffering
1:29:13I forget what the exact Buddha wording
1:29:15is of this I think it actually basically
1:29:17something like it is suffering
1:29:19attachment is suffering to some extent
1:29:21um and the stoics which is sort of the
1:29:22western interpretation of a of those
1:29:24Buddhist ideas have similar ideas that
1:29:27um if once you become attached to
1:29:30something you become a prisoner to it
1:29:32and um if you realize instead that like
1:29:35your your true freedom is your inner
1:29:37world and your development in your inner
1:29:39world and development of your character
1:29:41and so forth you're going to be a whole
1:29:43lot more resilient towards adversity if
1:29:45you can essentially afford to lose more
1:29:47or less everything the stoics even went
1:29:49so far as to build up this whole
1:29:51training program mental training program
1:29:53for how to become better at dealing with
1:29:56attachment a negative visualization is
1:29:58what they call it which is a which a
1:30:01principle instead of like it's it's
1:30:02almost the opposite of uh I forget what
1:30:04it was called there was some Modern
1:30:05thing like you think it and it will
1:30:07happen right the sto went like do you
1:30:09know what think about all the Terrible
1:30:11Things That Could Happen think about all
1:30:13those just such that you build up your
1:30:15resilience to to terrible events because
1:30:17terrible things will happen it's just
1:30:19that kind of world you're not going to
1:30:21make it through the end without anything
1:30:24terrible happening to you most humans
1:30:26will go to duration and will have
1:30:28multiple terrible things happen to them
1:30:30and some of those humans are utterly
1:30:32destroyed by it all of them will have a
1:30:35hard time with it like that's the
1:30:36definition of a terrible thing something
1:30:38you have a hard time with it but some
1:30:39people will recover more easily and more
1:30:42successfully than others you should be
1:30:44one of those people you should be one of
1:30:45those people where when faced with
1:30:47adversity whether personal professional
1:30:49or otherwise you're the resilient one
1:30:52you're the one who who gets back on
1:30:54their feet faster and starts going again
1:30:58and keeps going and dealing with
1:31:01attachment is one of the central themes
1:31:03in that building a resilience and it's
1:31:06it's one of those things that's um
1:31:09that's such a fascinating topic and also
1:31:11really difficult because I think no just
1:31:14think we know that humans are
1:31:16pre-programmed with loss adversity right
1:31:18yeah um Pro humans would would rather um
1:31:23would rather not lose $50 then win a
1:31:27100 right like we're we're really lost
1:31:29adverse in a way that like economists
1:31:31would say are irrational or or whatever
1:31:34but that's how we're hardwired so if if
1:31:37you're gonna sort of make it through and
1:31:40be the resilient strong character that
1:31:43hopefully you desire to be um you got to
1:31:46deal with that you really got to deal
1:31:48with it you got to deal with it with it
1:31:49head on now what's interesting to me is
1:31:52I've been on this stoic Journey
1:31:54for when did I get introduced to that
1:31:57maybe that was uh Tim Ferris in like
1:32:002005 or something I think when he
1:32:01started writing about it so a good
1:32:04almost maybe 20
1:32:05years I I'm not gonna say I've come full
1:32:07Ser full circle on it because I haven't
1:32:10at all I think stor ISM still the main
1:32:13mental operating system that I try to
1:32:16bootload every morning um because I find
1:32:19it so powerful and so common what I have
1:32:22also found and that's even more true on
1:32:24the Buddhist version I've been reading a
1:32:26bit on that
1:32:28side I think you can also take it too
1:32:30far literally not being attached to
1:32:32anything maybe it's making for a more
1:32:35tranquil mind but also I don't find that
1:32:38that enjoyable there are actually
1:32:40moments where my relationship to certain
1:32:42things like sport um I've competed in in
1:32:46Mo Motorcar Racing for quite a long time
1:32:49and when I started on that I was quite
1:32:50attached I was quite attached to
1:32:52outcomes and successes and so forth for
1:32:54and I as part of De attachment or
1:32:57whatever you will um reducing my
1:32:59Reliance on attachment also become less
1:33:01attachment to those things like what are
1:33:02the outcome of a of of a motor race I'm
1:33:04part of yeah and I remember still the
1:33:07feelings the sort of more stronger
1:33:09emotions that storis is so much about
1:33:11right it's about keeping a calm mind not
1:33:13being overcome with emotions emotions
1:33:15are actually sort of the negative for it
1:33:17and then I think like but there was
1:33:19actually something enjoyable about those
1:33:20swings yeah like there is something
1:33:22enjoyable about getting wor worked up
1:33:24about the outcome of a sports match or
1:33:27something that is is is perhaps
1:33:29certainly in Buddhism and and also in
1:33:32stoicism is kind of frowned upon at Le
1:33:35the official um Cannon of scriptures and
1:33:38so forth right you're about to keep like
1:33:40steady line not be too moved by anything
1:33:42just like oscillate around the steady
1:33:44line where I actually think like do you
1:33:46know what some of the human experiences
1:33:48to have some of those tips at least get
1:33:50more of them now yeah I'm not a scholar
1:33:52in either of these things certainly not
1:33:54on Buddhism um and and maybe these
1:33:56things are as starkly in a position in
1:33:59opposition as as I present them to be
1:34:00here but that's at least one of the
1:34:02things that I found I I say overall most
1:34:04humans who have not studied any of these
1:34:06mental operating systems can benefit
1:34:09tremendously from um growing less
1:34:13attached to things they cannot control
1:34:15that's how stoicism puts it right there
1:34:17it divides the the world into basically
1:34:21two things the things that you can
1:34:22control which is your own real reaction
1:34:24to things which is your own disposition
1:34:26and then the things you cannot control
1:34:27those are the outcomes of for example
1:34:29the sports match or a motor race or all
1:34:31these other things you can't control
1:34:32them don't get in that invested into
1:34:35things you can't control invest all of
1:34:37that energy into building up the things
1:34:39you can control like your
1:34:41reactions what interests me about that
1:34:44so I also like last year spent a bit of
1:34:46time looking at Buddhism and it is very
1:34:48heavy on the acceptance side of things
1:34:50it's just like accept accept yes and um
1:34:53I think about you know the Serenity
1:34:54Prayer that's like God give me the
1:34:56strength to change the things I can the
1:34:58grace to accept I can't and the wisdom
1:35:01to know the difference and I feel like
1:35:02that last part is so crucial and it's
1:35:06like you can just go I'm just going to
1:35:07accept everything but it's like yeah but
1:35:08there's also a lot of things that you
1:35:09can change yes and uh yes I feel like uh
1:35:13I'm still I'm still on the lookout for a
1:35:15philosophy that can just tell me here's
1:35:18how you decide what you can and can't
1:35:20change and therefore where to put your
1:35:22emotional resources um because and
1:35:24you're not gonna find it that's that's
1:35:26right that's right it's too complex you
1:35:28can't have a philosophy I think also to
1:35:30some extent that is liberating because
1:35:32if you could literally just find an
1:35:34operating system that was pre-programmed
1:35:35for all the responses you should have to
1:35:37the world and everything that happens in
1:35:38it you'd no longer be human you would
1:35:40literally just be an automaton right you
1:35:42would already have you would already
1:35:43know how to react to all the things
1:35:45because it could be pre-programmed
1:35:46according to a certain algorithm and
1:35:48thankfully we have not discovered that
1:35:50algorithm now that doesn't mean we
1:35:51actually shouldn't try searching for it
1:35:54it's just like more of an individualized
1:35:55search right like we end up we Fork
1:35:58there's a base operating system either
1:35:59Buddhism or stoicism or or even
1:36:02Christianity and then you fork and you
1:36:05you put in your own patches to deal with
1:36:07some of the vulnerabilities and whatever
1:36:10that stuff that comes up um and and I
1:36:13mean that's part of the pleasure of like
1:36:15you're still involved in your life you
1:36:16still literally have free will and
1:36:18everything has not been pre-ordained and
1:36:20um and so forth so I think that I mean
1:36:24you should be on the the March for it
1:36:26and I think at least I'm trying to
1:36:27imagine in my head what would have
1:36:29triggered me to look into stoicism
1:36:30earlier because I kind of sort of wish I
1:36:32did um stoicism to me discovering
1:36:35stoicism it's not quite like discovering
1:36:37Ruby I think that was more immediately
1:36:41inflection point but I think Steris has
1:36:43almost had as big of an impact on my uh
1:36:45mental models um but I had like a a
1:36:48homegrown version of that I basically
1:36:50didn't have anything to Fork from I was
1:36:52just trying to build from first
1:36:53principles like let's just start with
1:36:55sand now make a CPU now come up with a
1:36:57sembler whatever of how I wanted to
1:36:59process the world and the reason I
1:37:01became attracted to stoicism was like it
1:37:03felt like just a more refined version of
1:37:05that was like What if those thoughts had
1:37:082,000 years to
1:37:10cook um it'd probably be better of
1:37:14course it was
1:37:15right um yeah so I think I mean still
1:37:18adopting a a philosophy trying some out
1:37:22right this is the other thing just just
1:37:23with programming languages I didn't know
1:37:25up front that like Ruby was going to be
1:37:27the one that just sort of just fit right
1:37:30like I tried a bunch of different things
1:37:31I tried Java I tried PHP aspet I tried
1:37:33Pearl I tried python tried a bunch of
1:37:35different languages um it was Ruby the
1:37:38fit and the only way I could know that
1:37:40was by trying it so I think this is one
1:37:43I mean a lot of uh religious thinkers
1:37:46maybe that's this is blasphemy right but
1:37:48to some extent trying out some of these
1:37:50operating systems um and that's what's
1:37:52so interesting some of these operating
1:37:54systems are overtly religious like
1:37:56Christianity whatever um and some of
1:37:59them are not in the same way like
1:38:01stoicism is not overtly religious
1:38:03there's no deities that are baked into
1:38:05the system and whatever there's some
1:38:06idea of the universe and living
1:38:07according to Nature that you can
1:38:09summarize the same Buddhism is also some
1:38:11of the things and whatever maybe that's
1:38:13some half in between but like they're
1:38:15all operating systems there're all ways
1:38:18of processing the world and trying to
1:38:20make sense of it and your place in it
1:38:22and I I do think think that having
1:38:24knowledge of different operating systems
1:38:25will help you and for some people they
1:38:28will discover one operating system and
1:38:29go like yep that that's the one now
1:38:32others will just get their pre-installed
1:38:34yeah I grew up in a Catholic household
1:38:37and that's why we go to mass okay first
1:38:39of all I all power of that um in fact if
1:38:42anything I think one of the now we're
1:38:45really getting into the weeds here but
1:38:46one of the problems of modern day is
1:38:48that there's not enough pre-installation
1:38:50totally there's there's way too many
1:38:53folks who are just being left with like
1:38:55an open boot drive and they're like oh
1:38:57well I'm going to put my CPU and assem
1:38:59language and whatever together from
1:39:01scratch and the most important principle
1:39:04here is just consent if I say it's good
1:39:06then it's good uh I think that
1:39:09experiment has failed and this has been
1:39:12one of the main things I've realized
1:39:14over the last especially 10 years just
1:39:16going from I remember Bill Mars
1:39:20religionist uh I think it came out in
1:39:22late 200 or something where he just
1:39:24makes fun of religion and points out all
1:39:25the ways they're stupid and like he's
1:39:28actually right in a lot of particular
1:39:30minor instances of that right there a
1:39:32lot of stupid things it's a [ __ ] two
1:39:34a lot of these operating systems the
1:39:35ones that endure they're like 2,000
1:39:37years old or more how would they notall
1:39:40of cultural belief exactly how would
1:39:42they not have bugs and dead code and
1:39:45whatever things that doesn't correspond
1:39:47to Modern whatever okay yes recognize
1:39:50that try to debug it try to update it
1:39:52try to patch it
1:39:53but also Steve's um or not Steve Joel
1:39:57spolsky one of my favorite essays even
1:39:59though I don't always agree with it is
1:40:00like uh I think it's from 2001 don't
1:40:03rewrite and he wrote this about I think
1:40:06it was the Mozilla rewrite that like
1:40:08rewriting Netscape from scratch set back
1:40:11Wasilla so far that they could never
1:40:13catch back up um rewriting a mental
1:40:16operating system is really really
1:40:18difficult and you're not going to get it
1:40:20right in your lifetime like operating
1:40:22systems l literally mental operating
1:40:24system literally take hundreds of years
1:40:26if not Millennia to sort of hone and
1:40:29perfect or not even perfect because
1:40:31they're never going to be perfected but
1:40:32like make good and make just viral
1:40:35enough just have enough stories and
1:40:37allegories and whatever that like normal
1:40:39people can sort of understand them and
1:40:41then also make them resilient enough and
1:40:42also make them adaptive enough to their
1:40:44environments and and all sorts of that
1:40:46like to think that we should just like
1:40:47not boot up anything that we should just
1:40:50like all right that's a civilization
1:40:51we're not going to pre-program anything
1:40:52we're just like
1:40:53you choose whatever you want that
1:40:56experiment I think I used to believe in
1:40:59and I think it's pretty been a pretty
1:41:01resounding failure yeah I've been I've
1:41:04had a similar experience like The God
1:41:05Delusion by Richard Dawkins and all that
1:41:07stuff I mean in high school I was at a
1:41:09Catholic High School so I had plenty of
1:41:10reasons to hate religion just by being
1:41:12in that environment having to do prayers
1:41:14in the morning and always depressing
1:41:16prayers were Chen for some reason um and
1:41:19so I was all like yeah this is all great
1:41:21but then you do realize that there's
1:41:23something there you don't want to throw
1:41:24the baby out with the bath water and
1:41:26we've definitely done that and there's
1:41:28many people right now trying to find a
1:41:30way to salvage the good stuff um and
1:41:33it's just it's there's like a question
1:41:35about like do you need to have
1:41:39some some mystical element to it like do
1:41:42you have to have some like claims about
1:41:45the afterlife or something
1:41:47to to have a belief system that everyone
1:41:51can get around or is it possible to just
1:41:53kind of be let's say atheist but then
1:41:56also have like just the staric stuff and
1:41:58I think that's an open question we're
1:41:59going to find out whether you can I
1:42:01don't actually think it's that open
1:42:02unfortunately I used to the School of
1:42:04Life um what's his
1:42:07name [ __ ] it escapes the School of Life
1:42:10have been advocating basically secular
1:42:12churches for a long time which which is
1:42:14just obviously hang on so you about to
1:42:17say that that's absurd because I feel
1:42:18like that's
1:42:19absurd I I think there's something in
1:42:21there where where the idea you were just
1:42:23talking about can we capture the good
1:42:25parts of religion without the the
1:42:27metaphysical or Supernatural stuff right
1:42:30and I think that's what the secular
1:42:31churches were trying to do how can we
1:42:33capture the community and the virtues
1:42:35and the moral instruction and all these
1:42:38other good things that I think a lot of
1:42:41people at least would recognize not all
1:42:42but a lot of people would recognize as
1:42:44good things out of religion uh can we
1:42:46capture those without the package and I
1:42:49think um Bill Mah was on that with
1:42:51religious list we don't need this we can
1:42:53have good moral institution um Ricky Jaz
1:42:56had been on this many times right like
1:42:58he one of his great jokes is like um
1:43:00some religious person that's like well
1:43:02if God doesn't tell you that murder is
1:43:04wrong um why wouldn't everyone just go
1:43:06around murdering and he goes well I
1:43:08murder just as much as I want which is
1:43:11absolutely not at all yeah right again
1:43:14he's sort of an abow atheist um has a
1:43:16lot of funny jokes about it and I can
1:43:20recognize all of those critiques both
1:43:22from Bill Mah and RI ja and and Dawkins
1:43:25and so forth and still go like okay well
1:43:28I kind of feel like we've had an
1:43:30opportunity to run your experiment on
1:43:32like a a broad population for some time
1:43:35like uh religious rates have been going
1:43:37down and and whatnot like your side of
1:43:40the argument has been winning has that
1:43:42improved things are we better
1:43:45off
1:43:47I I don't think so to just to be blunt I
1:43:50mean we could certainly argue about that
1:43:52and some things are better of something
1:43:53not better off on a whole are more
1:43:56people in a good place where they know
1:43:58their place in the world they have sort
1:44:00of the security of that no I don't think
1:44:03they are and I am very susceptible to
1:44:06the idea that some of it comes with um
1:44:09even if it's supernatural the belief of
1:44:12an afterlife is a calming belief the
1:44:14belief higher power and that there's
1:44:17meaning with everything and like what
1:44:19was before the universe and I I just
1:44:22started reading um the
1:44:24TOA confusion ISM and that stuff and
1:44:27it's the same [ __ ] you you look at
1:44:28that and which is also not overtly uh
1:44:31theistic the tow is not a theistic thing
1:44:34it's more like a stoicism's sense of
1:44:37Nature and yeah yeah yeah according to
1:44:38the universe and so forth but they all
1:44:40have that like they all have at the core
1:44:44a higher power like something that makes
1:44:47the whole thing makes sense and I think
1:44:49if you look at the um existentialist um
1:44:52s ra and and whatever right you're like
1:44:55oh you're just thrown into this world
1:44:57nothing makes sense it's a cold and
1:44:59uncaring Universe um all you have to do
1:45:02is you you have to find your own path
1:45:04and I actually like the a lot of the
1:45:06essentialists writing I love Kimu and
1:45:08and so forth but you also go
1:45:11like I this is not a this this operating
1:45:14system you're presenting existentialism
1:45:16is not compatible with most brains yeah
1:45:18I don't like when they run that we don't
1:45:21end up in a good place we end up in this
1:45:23weird place where suddenly we the golden
1:45:25calf becomes consent theory that like
1:45:28literally anything and everything goes
1:45:30as long as like two consenting adults or
1:45:32one consenting adult is on it and I just
1:45:35go like on further reflection I don't
1:45:38believe that to be true um now open very
1:45:41open question what the hell do you do
1:45:43with that like and I say that I said a
1:45:46lot of positive things about religion
1:45:47right I'm not a religious person I don't
1:45:49have a supernatural belief sort of kind
1:45:52of wish I did to some extent jealous
1:45:56nice like I like the idea of of
1:45:58believing that like I'm not just worm
1:45:59food but like after that there's gonna
1:46:01be puffy clouds and I'm gonna whatever
1:46:05program all day on my favorite
1:46:06mechanical keyboard or whatever idea you
1:46:08could have of but Heaven Is Gonna Be
1:46:10Right which by the way is really funny
1:46:12um um George Orwell has his wonderful
1:46:16essay about why um I think it was a
1:46:19leftist critique but his critique was
1:46:21essentially why is it that that no one
1:46:23can articulate what heaven is except in
1:46:25its absence of Heaven is a place where
1:46:27you don't have to work all the time
1:46:29Heaven is a place where you always have
1:46:31enough money like it's all very fuzzy
1:46:33and then everyone seem to be able to
1:46:35articulate hell very specifically yeah
1:46:37you be on fire
1:46:39and and you're in a [ __ ] cauldron of
1:46:42fire being burned for hundreds of years
1:46:44and there's pitchforks and like that's
1:46:46very Vivid right um which gets to this
1:46:50this this leads into this critique is
1:46:52like first of all all um and this one D
1:46:55comes up with too like humans wouldn't
1:46:57[ __ ] know what to do with Heaven if
1:46:59they arrived in heaven they'd give it 10
1:47:01minutes and then they [ __ ] start
1:47:03smashing things just for something
1:47:05unexpected to happen I think that's his
1:47:06line um out of Notes from Underground
1:47:09which is a wonderful book um and you
1:47:12just go in all of this like yeah okay I
1:47:15see all the value of religion I think
1:47:17actually Society in in very many ways
1:47:20was better structured and more cohesive
1:47:22and whatever when was more prevailing
1:47:23Force um I don't know how to put Humpty
1:47:27Dumpty back together
1:47:30again well yeah I I I think that you
1:47:33know maybe if
1:47:34stoicism becomes more and more popular
1:47:37it may be that there's just enough there
1:47:39just the fact that it was come up with
1:47:41by like Greek guys 2,000 years ago or
1:47:444,000 years ago however long it was like
1:47:47maybe there's just enough mystical in
1:47:49that that you don't need to invoke a
1:47:51deity to be able to get behind it um but
1:47:56yeah I think so so what makes me
1:47:58slightly skeptical in that and I say
1:48:00that as someone who very much enjoys
1:48:02stor system I mean it's it is my main
1:48:04source as I said of operating system
1:48:07pre-programming um but it also has this
1:48:10tendency sometimes when like there
1:48:12aren't these other parts then it it
1:48:13pulls in there is a stereotype of a sto
1:48:17stoic Western California dude who's a
1:48:20little too much into ice baths and yeah
1:48:23whatever that guy on on YouTube um um
1:48:27longevity and some of these things where
1:48:29you just go like oh [ __ ] but maybe
1:48:32that's also do you know what there's not
1:48:33going to be a perfect operating system
1:48:34it's not like [ __ ] any of the old
1:48:36ones were perfect they all had serious
1:48:39material flaws maybe those flaws were
1:48:42less and this is what we're learning now
1:48:43than what the absence of those operating
1:48:45systems is offering us I think that's a
1:48:47very fair critique one Jordan Peterson
1:48:49is um very articulate on I'd say um but
1:48:54still it leaves us with a lot of sort of
1:48:57consternation without necessarily any
1:48:59good answers I feel like most of the
1:49:01proposals I've seen to the extent that
1:49:03they've actually been tried um pretty
1:49:06modest uptake on it that like again
1:49:09maybe it is to get a a blockbuster viral
1:49:13mental operating system going you need a
1:49:15little you might need a mass you potions
1:49:19and a God that shoots fire and some of
1:49:21these other things and and maybe that
1:49:23just doesn't work anymore maybe
1:49:25Hollywood actually killed that right
1:49:27like now you can [ __ ] see superh
1:49:29human uh hero movies and and all that
1:49:31stuff like maybe it just doesn't it just
1:49:33doesn't work and then what does work I
1:49:36mean the operating systems or or viruses
1:49:40I would actually call it I mean now
1:49:41we're really getting into ter memes
1:49:42basically memes or mind viruses as uh as
1:49:46the good Elon would like to label some
1:49:48of these ideas that's that's come up
1:49:50right um that the things that are now
1:49:53how um what do you call it uh optimal or
1:49:57adapted to the environment we're pretty
1:49:59[ __ ] dark right like they take
1:50:01Society in really bad places really
1:50:03quickly and um that still leaves us like
1:50:08what the [ __ ] do we do clearly it is
1:50:09still possible to infect societies with
1:50:13the positive word would be um sort of I
1:50:16don't know actually if religion is even
1:50:18a positive word in in those people's own
1:50:21vocabulary but like um
1:50:23spirituality but maybe there's some of
1:50:25that or or maybe it's just like um some
1:50:28sense of the right side of history that
1:50:30was one way of framing some of these
1:50:31things for a while um that like that can
1:50:34still sort of work right so we're still
1:50:36able to very quickly actually shocking
1:50:39you quickly although maybe not so
1:50:40quickly if you take the ideology of
1:50:43right out of history for example right
1:50:45there's Roots all the way back to the
1:50:4620s even back to um the 1800s and
1:50:50certainly to the 60s right like that's
1:50:51where a lot of the long March through
1:50:53the institutions and all that stuff you
1:50:55can Google some of those terms if you'd
1:50:57like to find out more but some of those
1:50:59things got planted and then maybe now
1:51:01what we're seeing is basically just the
1:51:03the final outcome of it and just looks
1:51:05like it kind of went crazy in the last
1:51:0710 years but actually that's a 60-year
1:51:09March through the institutions as um
1:51:12some of these people would would talk
1:51:13about but clearly we are able to in um
1:51:17to influence how people think like that
1:51:20is still there can we find essentially
1:51:23like a positive mind virus can we find a
1:51:26way and that's I mean that is what
1:51:27religion is to some extent right like
1:51:29tractors would call Christianity a
1:51:31negative mind virus I guess if you don't
1:51:33like Christianity or whatever and it's
1:51:35not like they're all the same either so
1:51:37I mean I'm not it's not about equivalen
1:51:39see here I don't think there's
1:51:40equivalency I think there is different
1:51:43religions and thought processes and
1:51:45ideologies lead to very very different
1:51:48outcomes um and some of them are
1:51:50terrifyingly worse than others
1:51:53um
1:51:55but can we come up with a good one like
1:51:58can we restore those good parts of what
1:52:00religion brought to the table uh in a
1:52:03way that breaks the curve of adoption
1:52:07the adoption curve right we've been on
1:52:08this trailing curve for a long time um
1:52:11can I find just like me speaking about
1:52:13myself can I find one of those I like to
1:52:17believe in something greater and bigger
1:52:19and whatever and stoicism is some of
1:52:22that that from some aspects but not a
1:52:24uniform Theory of Everything the same
1:52:27way that a full-on religion is right
1:52:28like religion that's a prepackaged
1:52:31program here like here's your place in
1:52:32the world and here's your relationship
1:52:34to the deity and here's how it's
1:52:35mediated and here's how you should act
1:52:37and and so forth
1:52:40um sometimes I mean this is I'll drop
1:52:42another reference here um escape from
1:52:44Freedom by Eric from is one of those
1:52:47books that really cooked my noodle which
1:52:50is essentially about what do we do with
1:52:52all this Freedom so we want our freedom
1:52:54from feudal society we want our freedom
1:52:57from oppressive religions now you are as
1:53:01the existentialists would say you're
1:53:02thrown into this world and it's up to
1:53:04you to figure it out and a lot of people
1:53:06go like well [ __ ] that no thank you all
1:53:09this Freedom totally anxiety inducing
1:53:12yeah totally not what I would can you
1:53:14just tell me what to do please yeah you
1:53:17were hinting at that a little bit right
1:53:18can I find an operating system that'll
1:53:19just kind of give me more give me more
1:53:22specific guidance about more specific
1:53:24things and I think again this is this is
1:53:26one of the things you can have that or
1:53:27you can have the adaptability like
1:53:29Christianity is actually you just take
1:53:31that quite specific about a great number
1:53:33of things what are you supposed to do in
1:53:35that situation and which is good right
1:53:37it's it's good if you're a farmer 2,000
1:53:40years ago it's not as useful um in the
1:53:43modern times where it's the sprawling
1:53:45complexity yes and I don't think we've
1:53:47seen an updated version of that right
1:53:49like Christianity in particular and many
1:53:51of the other religions of the time time
1:53:52they were very specific about all sorts
1:53:55of things and a lot of them were quite
1:53:57practical in like oh um
1:54:01whatever jism were like you shouldn't
1:54:03eat um what is it pigs
1:54:06fish whatever there's all these sort of
1:54:08things that are um historically anchored
1:54:12into things that made a lot of sense in
1:54:14that time and place and then there are
1:54:15other things that are Timeless truths
1:54:17right um and those Timeless truths
1:54:20that's the part we now take I'm like
1:54:21this is a good part of the we should
1:54:22focus on no part we should not focus on
1:54:24the over adapted very specific parts
1:54:27that made sense 2,000 years ago but
1:54:30maybe those things are still necessary
1:54:32right like so can we get more of that
1:54:34today can we get something that has some
1:54:35of those specific here's how here's some
1:54:37good ey tips on how to live is that what
1:54:40self-help is then I think oh [ __ ] that
1:54:43didn't whatever was there didn't hit
1:54:46critical mass either um maybe that's not
1:54:48also possible I mean 2,000 years ago how
1:54:50many people were on earth like I don't
1:54:51know a few million now we have going on
1:54:5410 billion by the middle of the century
1:54:57maybe it's like JavaScript like just
1:55:00forget it you're not going to come up
1:55:01with one operating system one religious
1:55:03um that's right yeah be able to do it um
1:55:06you're gonna get up with these sex or I
1:55:09mean I think that's a negatively I don't
1:55:12even mean that a negative word I just
1:55:13mean that in a religion that's not like
1:55:15all encompassing right
1:55:18um I haven't found one like not one that
1:55:21gives me the level of specificity of
1:55:23like don't eat shellfish
1:55:26um and if there are days where I would
1:55:29like to escape from Freedom where I
1:55:31would very much like yeah I'd like a
1:55:32little more prescription totally um and
1:55:35it's so interesting too is is one so I'm
1:55:38a uh immigrated to the US from Denmark
1:55:41and Denmark is a far more prescriptive
1:55:43Society there's far more social norms
1:55:45they're far more broadly shared they're
1:55:48far more severely enforced uh some
1:55:50people might have heard of yelon which
1:55:52is sort of uh way of creating social
1:55:54cohesion don't believe you are anything
1:55:56don't believe you're better than other
1:55:57people whatever um that's a kind of
1:55:59operating system by the way um one that
1:56:01certainly also had negative consequences
1:56:03and then the US where we're
1:56:05basically of all the societies I've
1:56:07spent time in is the most you do
1:56:10whatever the hell you want Pursuit of
1:56:12Happiness is a very individual Pursuit
1:56:14it's very existentialist to some extent
1:56:15you that's up to you man you figure it
1:56:18out do your thing
1:56:20right no one is saying do your thing in
1:56:23Denmark I don't know if there's even a
1:56:25[ __ ] Danish expression for do your
1:56:27thing I'm not saying that no one
1:56:28believes that I'm just saying that's not
1:56:29a cultural value that like goes on a
1:56:31[ __ ] t-shirt um and and I like some
1:56:36of that right but then I also I went
1:56:39back to Denmark for three years during
1:56:41the pandemic and I went like oh [ __ ]
1:56:43this is also nice I really like the
1:56:45cohesiveness I like the homogeneity of a
1:56:48society that has very shared values
1:56:51strong social norms
1:56:52that allow my [ __ ] kids at pre teen
1:56:57to go on the Metro bys at 9:00 at night
1:57:01um I mean I referenced Japan earlier a
1:57:03lot of people go to Japan they go like
1:57:05oh it's so clean there's no crime
1:57:07there's no yeah I mean they run a they
1:57:10run an operating system that runs pretty
1:57:12much most of society it's got some
1:57:14pretty strong social norms and it's
1:57:17keeping that version of what they want
1:57:19that Society to be in very tight check
1:57:21right and again that's stifling for some
1:57:23people in some regards and America has a
1:57:26different version of that but I can look
1:57:28at both of those things and say like I
1:57:29personally like a lot of things about
1:57:30America but I also like the things that
1:57:33are really unique to Japanese culture or
1:57:36Danish culture and a large part of that
1:57:39is that is actually far more
1:57:41prescriptive those are very prescriptive
1:57:43societies for the members of those
1:57:44societies how you should act how you
1:57:45should live what's good what's bad
1:57:47whatever even to the point of shared um
1:57:50sort of interests and songs and ways of
1:57:53acting I mean one of the things just a
1:57:55quick anecdote when you arrive in
1:57:56Copenhagen airport and you walk out you
1:57:59will invariably see a large number of
1:58:01people standing with Danish Flags waving
1:58:05those flags when their relatives come
1:58:06home they're just like yay we're Danish
1:58:11this is awesome and you've been abroad
1:58:13and now you're home to Denmark and
1:58:14Denmark is great I mean I'm just sort
1:58:17of if a lot of if you stood in Portland
1:58:21Air airport with a bunch of American
1:58:24flags waving them back and forth you'd
1:58:27get coded at a as a certain individual
1:58:30and yeah not sure most portlanders would
1:58:32kind of be on your side of
1:58:35that divide however that is right that's
1:58:38really interesting right it's really
1:58:40interesting that something as uh being
1:58:43proud of your nationality as as most
1:58:45thingses I would say they're quite proud
1:58:47maybe sometimes so fault um but they're
1:58:50like yeah this is good we're proud of
1:58:51Denmark and Denmark great country and we
1:58:52should do great things and then you come
1:58:54to America and you're like oh [ __ ]
1:58:55that's not a universally shared value
1:58:58we're not like just all proud of being
1:59:00Americans that flying the flag is a
1:59:04controversial decision and like again
1:59:08just to try to take an objective
1:59:10perception of it of it um you can see
1:59:12how certain expressions or whatever
1:59:15things end up being coded right like
1:59:18that side I don't like they're doing the
1:59:19thing so now I can't do the thing even
1:59:21if I perhaps wanted too right even if
1:59:23perhaps thought like actually the
1:59:24American flag is good but now the other
1:59:25side has taken that point so I can't use
1:59:27it
1:59:28um yeah I
1:59:32it's so one of the other things I I
1:59:34found in all this is first of all holy
1:59:36[ __ ] the world's complicated that's I
1:59:38mean that in both that it is and it
1:59:40isn't like some of these Universal
1:59:42truths they're not very complicated at
1:59:43all and religion some of them have these
1:59:44great Colonels and they'll just
1:59:46literally one of the things I find
1:59:47reading stoicism is the amazement like
1:59:50I'm reading a [ __ ] book there's 2500
1:59:52years old how is he talking with such
1:59:54specificity about specific situation I
1:59:57feel like I mean right now in interhuman
1:59:59communication how is that possible how
2:00:02has nothing changed in 2500 years and
2:00:04probably much further than that I just
2:00:06don't have the texts but like the
2:00:08diagnosis of of human psychology for
2:00:11example that is inherent in
2:00:13stoicism amazingly out not not not much
2:00:16has changed it's kind of like
2:00:18Ecclesiastes nothing new Under the Sun
2:00:21exactly right at least in terms of human
2:00:23human interaction and human behavior yes
2:00:26so so there is obviously some of that
2:00:28that's like Eternal truth and their
2:00:29higher truth and then on the other hand
2:00:31in sort of the more specific concrete
2:00:33sense no one [ __ ] knows anything
2:00:35don't know where we're going we don't
2:00:36know what's happening we don't know
2:00:37what's up we don't know know what's down
2:00:38we don't know what's true we don't know
2:00:40what's false um it's a very
2:00:43disorientating and that's what um Eric
2:00:45froms escape from freedom is is is
2:00:48about being set free from sort of
2:00:50universal truths and whatever and
2:00:53everything is this is what postmodernism
2:00:54is about right like deconstructing
2:00:56everything and like everything is
2:00:57relative and it's all in the ey of the
2:00:58beholder and it's whatever is is first
2:01:01of
2:01:04all I don't know where I am at that is
2:01:06it fundamentally true is it not true I
2:01:08don't know I don't think it's helpful
2:01:10yeah that's right I don't think it's
2:01:11helpful I don't think it's helpful that
2:01:13we all have our own personal truth that
2:01:15I don't think is helpful um but
2:01:18um uh what was I going to say um yes so
2:01:22like what do you do and and it we don't
2:01:25know right and and this was oh yeah it
2:01:28was a pandemic I was coming from to me
2:01:29pandemic was a really
2:01:31radicalizing period for me there was a
2:01:34lot of mental models I had about a lot
2:01:36of different institutions and people and
2:01:40even countries that like just got
2:01:42[ __ ] blown to Smither yeah I'm I'm in
2:01:44I'm in Melbourne I'm in Victoria
2:01:46Australia we were like the most locked
2:01:48down I did not see that coming I until
2:01:522020 I thought Australia was America
2:01:55light and then I just watched how we
2:01:57just all locked down and it was all like
2:01:59vaccine mandates and stuff like that I
2:02:00was like okay fair enough seems like we
2:02:02have some different values than what I
2:02:04thought we did not it's making a value
2:02:06judgment I was just surprised so much
2:02:08uniformity about it it's it's like the
2:02:10go thing you're like oh like go I'm like
2:02:13whatever and then you show up oh [ __ ]
2:02:14these people I I thought we were oh no
2:02:17oh we're not oh yeah to me the I mean I
2:02:20I have some friends from Australia and I
2:02:22got some of the anecdotes from there um
2:02:24incl including some of the quarantine
2:02:26stories where I just went like I I'm
2:02:29believing this because you're my friend
2:02:30and I know you're not lying to me
2:02:31because you're my friend if some if a
2:02:33stranger had told me that I would have
2:02:34gone like that sounds crazy I don't even
2:02:38scarcely believe those stories um so
2:02:41that was pretty wild the one that really
2:02:43uh noodled me though was the Canadian
2:02:45trucker protest um and because I had the
2:02:48same mental B of Canada Oh Canada is
2:02:51like just a kind nicer America where
2:02:53they're more polite and they're
2:02:54constantly apologizing for everything
2:02:56and you're like holy [ __ ] no there's
2:02:58also a deeply authoritarian streak here
2:03:02that I did not have in my mental model
2:03:04and I think if you're looking at what's
2:03:05going on in the UK right now um with
2:03:08their um going on let's just put it like
2:03:11that the like you will get arrested and
2:03:15prosecuted for retweeting the wrong
2:03:17tweet thing that's going on you're like
2:03:19oh [ __ ] I also did not know know that
2:03:22like how did that I
2:03:24mean Co gave some previews some hints
2:03:28but what's happening right now to me is
2:03:29just like I can't I can I so I I see a
2:03:33tweet on Twitter and I go like ah
2:03:34someone's [ __ ] exaggerating let me
2:03:36look that up through a source and like
2:03:37holy [ __ ] here's the official video of
2:03:39the police person like literally just
2:03:42saying that we're gonna come after you
2:03:44and I don't care if you're in United
2:03:46State you Retreat the what what the what
2:03:50and again
2:03:52actually I don't want to say I what I
2:03:53was about to say was almost like the go
2:03:55thing hey if that's how you want to live
2:03:56all good I no that's one of the things
2:03:58where I actually do think there are
2:03:59Universal truths and there are more
2:04:02right and more wrong answers and I think
2:04:04on that particular Point America
2:04:07actually has more of the right answers
2:04:08when it comes to things like the first
2:04:10amendment um enshrining freedom of
2:04:13speech to that degree that deep into the
2:04:15operating system that's really difficult
2:04:17to extract and pull out or even curtail
2:04:21holy [ __ ] that has been an illustration
2:04:23of why that was such a smart idea
2:04:25because then you look at the UK or
2:04:27Canada I don't know as much about de ins
2:04:30situation you see like that was not
2:04:31baked into the foundation and that means
2:04:35it it lives on a much higher level in
2:04:36the stack it's like in it's in usand
2:04:39yeah and like [ __ ] could just be deleted
2:04:42like someone could just go like all
2:04:43right we don't need that app anymore
2:04:45Free Speech what do you mean like uh
2:04:47what was the quote something about yeah
2:04:49I mean all this is a hypocrisy so I find
2:04:52so fascinating on one hand people who
2:04:54don't believe in free speed at all feel
2:04:55a necessity to like still F that they do
2:04:59like almost all authoritarian regimes
2:05:01even if you asked them in China they'd
2:05:03probably be like yeah yeah yeah free
2:05:04speech I mean except for criticizing the
2:05:07party yeah except
2:05:09for what was they saying what's the term
2:05:12in the EU now a mission information I
2:05:14mean free speech yeah yeah I mean except
2:05:17for saying things that like what
2:05:19whoever's in power true yeah uh wait
2:05:22what I think that's basically the
2:05:23definition of not free speech right no
2:05:25one needs free speech to say the pie is
2:05:28delicious right that's not that's not
2:05:30what we're trying to protect here we're
2:05:31trying to protect
2:05:33controversial statements opposition
2:05:35critique all the things right and I mean
2:05:38that's also one of those things where
2:05:40like the human instincts are as old as
2:05:42time like no [ __ ] tyrant in the
2:05:44history of the world has ever liked
2:05:46critique right how many [ __ ] Kings
2:05:48and Barons have cut the head off the gur
2:05:51who were a little too funny um at their
2:05:54expense right you're like off with their
2:05:56head so we don't cut people's heads off
2:05:58most of the time in the west at least um
2:06:00but we still don't like it and if we can
2:06:03find a way to finagle the system to
2:06:07essentially prosecute these things and
2:06:09and make them shut up that's the main
2:06:11thing right make them shut up don't say
2:06:13that it's really that's in
2:06:15misinformation disinformation
2:06:17malformation there a it constantly seems
2:06:19to mutate into a new um new version here
2:06:22then you end up with um with sort of
2:06:24this Pursuit and you go like this is
2:06:26actually one of the things that are simp
2:06:27simple but hard I love those kind of
2:06:29things so much of again what I like
2:06:32about stoicism and why I keep rereading
2:06:34the manual by picus for example it's not
2:06:36because I'm learning new things it's
2:06:38because the things I learned are very
2:06:40difficult to put into effect on a
2:06:42regular basis and I need constant
2:06:45reminders to be able to enact the things
2:06:48I want to enact and act the way I want
2:06:50to act right and and um it's the same
2:06:53thing with these fundamental principles
2:06:54right like freedom of speech is a very
2:06:56poorest and easily um sort of delut
2:07:00concept that you don't have to add too
2:07:02many caveats to it before suddenly it
2:07:05doesn't mean anything at all and I think
2:07:07again um and I didn't used to do this I
2:07:10would give America tremendous credit
2:07:13like it's actually quite specific in the
2:07:15US case law and whatever what
2:07:17constitutes free speech and what doesn't
2:07:19right you're like all right you can't be
2:07:20in a mob right now saying attack that
2:07:23person and chop their head off right
2:07:25you're going to be help cable for that
2:07:28um you're not going to be held
2:07:29comfortable for for General things like
2:07:32saying like I don't like this person or
2:07:34that person like again now we really
2:07:36getting specific and then usually things
2:07:38get spicier usually it's much easier to
2:07:39talk at the abstract level than it is at
2:07:41the concrete but like things like hate
2:07:42speech right like what does that
2:07:43actually cover that mean different
2:07:44things to different people and let's not
2:07:46even get into the definition of that in
2:07:48part because it's so fussy right that's
2:07:50not thing that illegal like First
2:07:53Amendment
2:07:54literally um that that's not it's not
2:07:58legal neither is misinformation right
2:08:01here I'm going to say a lot of things
2:08:02that aren't true now we have things like
2:08:04def Foundation laws and and those kind
2:08:07of liable and and those things okay so
2:08:10there's some potential consequences here
2:08:13um for some of these things and this is
2:08:14right all of it does get murky um to
2:08:16some extent at the end but that doesn't
2:08:18mean there aren't sort of lines and
2:08:21where you can go like okay I don't know
2:08:22exactly where it is but I know this part
2:08:24is over it I know what the ever the [ __ ]
2:08:26is going on in the UK whatever the hell
2:08:28was going on in Canada with freezing the
2:08:31bank accounts of people who donated to
2:08:33the wrong political campaign that is
2:08:35[ __ ] boners nonsense I know no no no
2:08:39um and my mental models needed a serious
2:08:43revamp after going through that um where
2:08:45covid was really there's just so many
2:08:47things at the same time coming at it
2:08:49right live through what is it um is it
2:08:52stalling that like um decades can go by
2:08:55and nothing happens and minutes can go
2:08:57by and decades happen now I'm really
2:08:58butchering the quote quote but like Co
2:09:01felt like that to me right like you
2:09:02literally had what seemed like decades
2:09:04worth of
2:09:06political I was about to call it
2:09:08Innovation is a better word Perhaps
2:09:11rever Perhaps period of time um where
2:09:14like literally decades could have passed
2:09:16in into preceding time where like you
2:09:18know not not much happened so
2:09:21um but I mean let me also just add to
2:09:25the end here is like it's totally fair
2:09:26for different people to have different
2:09:28analysis here and this is one of the
2:09:30things I really disliked about the
2:09:33period that existed from let's say late
2:09:352010s to maybe even as late as a year
2:09:39and a year and a half ago I kind of feel
2:09:41like we are on the other side that like
2:09:43that debate the legitimacy of debate
2:09:45about philosophical and moral questions
2:09:47essentially got shut down um as
2:09:49certainly within within techology and so
2:09:51forth like we really there was a very
2:09:54successful mind virus that just went
2:09:56through like you can't even speak these
2:09:58things we can't have a debate about them
2:10:00if you say any of these things you're
2:10:02one of the isims you have committed an
2:10:04ism and oh man what a what a dark ages
2:10:09too soing right like the real Dark Ages
2:10:12how long did that [ __ ] last like 400
2:10:13years or something and here we got like
2:10:15a dark ages that felt like we got like
2:10:17the speedrun version what did you did
2:10:19Dark um ages but which going to do like
2:10:22five years and we're just going to do it
2:10:23on these moral topics go and I was like
2:10:26holy [ __ ] um I thought for a while like
2:10:29we're going to be in this for [ __ ] 10
2:10:31years 20 years maybe Jesus Christ and
2:10:35then suddenly the sky parted and the sun
2:10:39Shin through to some extent like not
2:10:41that everything is anything is ever
2:10:43settled but like suddenly like the whole
2:10:45atmosphere is just very very different I
2:10:47mean for examp just the conversation
2:10:48we're having now which I feel is at a
2:10:50relatively High level maybe like Little
2:10:53sprinklings of spice in it Unthinkable
2:10:56that you could have published this in
2:10:572020 and not be we'll we'll find out
2:11:00once I publish this interview whether uh
2:11:03everyone stops using laser in droves um
2:11:06I think I mean there's still pockets of
2:11:07that I'd be surprised if you don't hear
2:11:09anything but I I can tell you someone
2:11:11who went through several rounds of
2:11:14transgressive thought and and expression
2:11:17from especially 2021 forward
2:11:21holy [ __ ] the intensity of that era was
2:11:26just off the scales in a way I literally
2:11:29hope never to experience again in my
2:11:31lifetime yeah um and I think at least in
2:11:35terms of personal experence last thing I
2:11:37think what I would compare to like late
2:11:3960s like Vietnam protest War things like
2:11:42that level of just absolutely at each
2:11:46other's throat constantly [ __ ] going on
2:11:49in like daily life interaction like you
2:11:51can't escape it kind of thing um
2:11:53hopefully this is I mean if I go through
2:11:55it again it'll be another what is it
2:11:56going to be 60 years I'm not going to be
2:11:58here great let's do it on a 60-year
2:12:02cycle um I was thinking because you
2:12:05mentioned technology like I've always
2:12:06wondered like why has technology as a
2:12:09profession why did it get so why was it
2:12:11so involved in that whole thing and I
2:12:14was thinking about how like if you're
2:12:16deploying code that gets used by like
2:12:18millions of people maybe you're just
2:12:19thinking more about the ethic
2:12:21consequences of that and um I think
2:12:24about a lot of a lot of um the zist in
2:12:29many of these strains of thought is
2:12:31about like small things that can have
2:12:32large effects like um using certain
2:12:35words and things like that and I've
2:12:37always it's funny because I've got a
2:12:39history of having like OCD especially as
2:12:41a kid where I'd imagine that some small
2:12:43thing that I did would have some
2:12:44catastrophic consequences so I spent all
2:12:47these
2:12:48years trying to um
2:12:52think the exact opposite way it's like
2:12:54that's probably not going to happen and
2:12:55if you catastrophize things it's just a
2:12:57very bad way to live but a lot of these
2:12:59things that were coming out of
2:13:00Technology were very much in that same
2:13:02vein catastrophizing that if you use a
2:13:04certain word yes that there'll be this
2:13:06these big consequences and so it was
2:13:09interesting viewing that from the
2:13:10sidelines and thinking about how like
2:13:12I've got this mental scaffolding that
2:13:14took me a while to build up just based
2:13:16on my own psyche and whatever that seem
2:13:18to be different to to what the uh the
2:13:22mainstream perspective was at the time
2:13:24yeah I mean that's what's so interesting
2:13:27is that um a lot of the sort of
2:13:30psychological labeling of of these kinds
2:13:33of pathologies were all like exposure
2:13:35therapy let's take that one uh CPT
2:13:38cognitive behavior therapy like you're
2:13:40afraid of U spiders how is the way we
2:13:43make you less afraid of spiders well
2:13:44first we put you in a room with a spider
2:13:46but the spider's in a box right then you
2:13:48walk up to the box then you put your
2:13:51your hand on the glass like this with
2:13:53CBT happens over some period of time
2:13:55right then you touch a small spider
2:13:57that's very innocuous and you realize oh
2:14:00the catastrophe that I imagine does not
2:14:01come to pass right and you build up
2:14:03exposure to it so the way you you train
2:14:06your resilience is to to get exposed to
2:14:10something and realize that like the
2:14:11terrible thing you thought didn't happen
2:14:14a lot of what happened in this awful
2:14:16period um was the opposite like it was
2:14:18literally there's some great articles on
2:14:20this reverse CBT that microaggressions
2:14:24was how do we train your mind to pick up
2:14:27these maybe a glance maybe a word or an
2:14:32intonation that you can
2:14:34somehow internalize as being something
2:14:36negative to you or a slight or or
2:14:39whatever and you go like this is so
2:14:40fascinating we have a whole discipline
2:14:42perhaps the most successful branch of
2:14:45sort of Applied psychology CBT like the
2:14:48one that literally replicates that where
2:14:51uh the the studies show that this
2:14:53intervention line of intervention is
2:14:54actually effective right like we can
2:14:55cure or seriously mitigate people's fear
2:14:58of heights or Arachnophobia or whatever
2:15:01that's a major accomplishment what if we
2:15:03flipped it around and introduced those
2:15:05things into people like it's actually so
2:15:08devious as to be almost impressive like
2:15:11how do and I mean it actually is
2:15:13impressive and this is where if we go
2:15:14back to the60s and the Long March
2:15:16through the institutions and so forth um
2:15:18Herbert mcus and if you read some of
2:15:20this stuff like how do you R radicalize
2:15:22the proletariat towards um Revolution
2:15:25because the problem in the 60s was holy
2:15:27[ __ ] the West is actually doing too well
2:15:30Rising standards of living we're never
2:15:31going to f get these [ __ ] at the
2:15:33assembly line with their pensions and
2:15:35their houses and their cars and their
2:15:36garage to Rebel we're never going to get
2:15:39them to bring the Glorious Revolution
2:15:40because they simply have it too good so
2:15:42the way to do that um in Herbert mcus
2:15:45and and the rest of sort of that gang's
2:15:47Optics was well first we have to um
2:15:51erase their or attack their false
2:15:53consciousness you think you have it good
2:15:54but actually here's a bunch of
2:15:56microaggressions to be on the lookout
2:15:58for here's a way for you to actually end
2:15:59up feeling terrible about everything all
2:16:01the time and now when you do that when
2:16:03you are beaten and everything seems so
2:16:05bad and so dystopian and whatever you're
2:16:08ready for the revolution um so there's a
2:16:11whole thing to unpack there and as I
2:16:14unpacked it in in the aftermath of all
2:16:16this just trying to understand like oh
2:16:17this is just fascinating first of all
2:16:19I've been through the grinder here like
2:16:20I'd like to understand how this machines
2:16:22works like what would who designed the
2:16:24machine who came up with the the
2:16:26diagrams and and so forth of it and that
2:16:28trail L all the way back to to the 60s
2:16:31and marus and the Frankfurt School and
2:16:33and all that stuff um but you just look
2:16:37at some of this stuff and and you just
2:16:39go like we've been doing the opposite of
2:16:41what like you should be doing to create
2:16:42strong resilient people who are
2:16:44optimistic and we'll work for a better
2:16:46future and so forth instead we've
2:16:47created a large group of hyper fragile
2:16:52hyper sensitive um bitter vicious
2:16:57individuals who who who
2:16:59are not very successful at producing
2:17:02better outcomes and and very Adept at
2:17:05making things a whole [ __ ] of a lot
2:17:07worse um and I think again just a
2:17:11fascinating time to live through I think
2:17:13it when when sort of obviously you can
2:17:16only understand history backwards when
2:17:17we get a little distance to this we will
2:17:19look back upon on this as just
2:17:22absolutely incomprehensible Insanity MH
2:17:25in much the same way and now there's a
2:17:29gerin law accusation here but in much
2:17:31the same way that people U before the
2:17:33what is the milgrim experiment went like
2:17:36un incomprehensible that like how could
2:17:38World War II happen like how could such
2:17:40unspeakable evil and whatever and then a
2:17:43bunch
2:17:44of Americans in lab codes in some
2:17:47[ __ ] supper somewhere made a bunch of
2:17:49volunteers
2:17:51shock um innocent um individuals because
2:17:55they were being told to do so there's a
2:17:57bunch of sort of deep understanding of
2:17:59human nature and and whatever
2:18:02that things feel or seem very
2:18:05incomprehensible once you get a little
2:18:06bit of distance to it but like we're so
2:18:08close to what just transpired in
2:18:10technology and elsewhere and still is I
2:18:13mean by the way this isn't all [ __ ]
2:18:14over it just has
2:18:16Recology um that that um I don't think
2:18:19we fully appreciate
2:18:21that in like 10 years from now people
2:18:23look back on it with some incredulity
2:18:26that's at least my hope yeah I think um
2:18:29like for me personally I'm still always
2:18:30going to be open when someone says hey
2:18:32there's this thing you're doing that has
2:18:34these bad consequences like right you
2:18:36always have to hear them out and see
2:18:37what the argument is but it can be very
2:18:40difficult if it's like I'm coming to
2:18:41this with my perspective and maybe the
2:18:44supposed victim has a completely
2:18:46different perspective and I just aren't
2:18:48that person so I can't really know
2:18:49what's going through their head
2:18:51it's just a tricky thing I think the the
2:18:53reason this has been such a big deal is
2:18:56just because it is so tricky and because
2:18:58so often the um the fact
2:19:03that the the victim is just a different
2:19:06person to you extensively by by class or
2:19:09race or gender or something like that
2:19:11and then it's like okay well what right
2:19:12do I have to impose my viewpoint right
2:19:17as limited as it is onto the situation
2:19:20it's just really hairy and
2:19:22um to me what's so interesting to that
2:19:25is it is really hairy in the west
2:19:27there's a lot of other places we not
2:19:28hairy at all you go to [ __ ] China
2:19:31like they're not having these moral
2:19:33qualms at least in the broad public like
2:19:36it's not dictating the direction of it
2:19:38there's a different ideology in charge
2:19:40and it's not suffering this kind of [ __ ]
2:19:43right and that is to the point that many
2:19:45of the western world's best ideas are
2:19:48being weaponized against itself right
2:19:50like our sort of like all right well
2:19:52let's hear it out like our openness
2:19:54trait of like we're open to new
2:19:55information we're open to new ideas um
2:19:58our sort of background Christianity this
2:20:01goes all the way to n and his um like
2:20:04Christianity's slave morality and and
2:20:07all this stuff of like we take the side
2:20:09of the oppressed as a default that's
2:20:12like a cultural value that's all the way
2:20:14to Jesus um and that stuff can get
2:20:17weaponized like it can it can be
2:20:20positive things that have really helped
2:20:21the West move forward can be turned into
2:20:24an exploit right like there there's like
2:20:26there's this open door and if you
2:20:28program your mind wirus in a certain way
2:20:30it's going to fit into these receptors
2:20:32and it's going to turn into a cancer
2:20:34that destroys them but do you feel that
2:20:37there are people deliberately pulling
2:20:39the strings or do you think it's like
2:20:41well-meaning well-intentioned people who
2:20:43are just on the wrong
2:20:46track I think there was absolutely a
2:20:49core uh not just was is a core group of
2:20:52IDE ideologists who absolutely know what
2:20:55they're doing I mean this is where
2:20:56Herbert mzi who I referenced um earlier
2:21:00they wrote it down like here's the road
2:21:03map here's how we're going to use
2:21:05Western values to sort of attack itself
2:21:08here's how to subvert these kind of
2:21:09things now is that the broad masses [ __ ]
2:21:13most people who show up in a marer who
2:21:15even part of some of these online mobs
2:21:17or whatever they have [ __ ] they don't
2:21:18have a clue who Herbert mcui is or if
2:21:20they do is because they've seen this
2:21:22four screen um comic about the U Paradox
2:21:27of intolerance or the Paradox of
2:21:29Tolerance I think it's called and they
2:21:30go
2:21:31like they [ __ ] they don't [ __ ] know I
2:21:34I didn't [ __ ] know most people
2:21:36haven't traced the lineage of all of
2:21:38this nonsense all the way back to its
2:21:41source even fewer are sort of Scholars
2:21:43and really understanding it so no I
2:21:45don't I think the ma vast majority are
2:21:48simply having their EX exploits
2:21:51triggered right like having their basic
2:21:53human sympathies and whatever weaponized
2:21:56in a way that end up being their
2:21:58negation right like that's the if get
2:22:01even more specific like Dei was such a
2:22:04Insidious U program in the sense that we
2:22:07go like okay we we in the US for example
2:22:11um there was the civil rights movement
2:22:13and there was the content of your
2:22:15character and and all of this like let's
2:22:17BL this exactly let's get above uh that
2:22:20let's treat people as individuals and
2:22:22they're juding their own merits and
2:22:23their own content of character and
2:22:25whatever and then that gets distorted
2:22:28into now we actually need segregated
2:22:30racial and other identity marker
2:22:33subgroups and they have to be separated
2:22:34from each other and and all this stuff
2:22:36where you go like that it's literally
2:22:38the opposite like it it's it's espousing
2:22:42a sort of an adherence to some ideal
2:22:44that you can perhaps like recognize okay
2:22:46I can sort of see where that comes from
2:22:48but like the final consequences ends up
2:22:49being sort of the opposite and are most
2:22:53people who advocate for that are they
2:22:55sort of in on that long march through
2:22:57the institution no of course they're not
2:22:59right they're they're thinking like hey
2:23:01I'm on the right side of History here
2:23:03like this is what we need to do to make
2:23:04amends this is all the the governing
2:23:07explanation for all of this is like this
2:23:09must be discrimination like this there's
2:23:11got to be a cabal here of whatever rich
2:23:15white dudes as The Stereotype goes who
2:23:17controls everything and the patriarchy
2:23:19and and all of these um theories as to
2:23:22why outcomes are the way they are and
2:23:25like that's what the truth is right
2:23:28um yeah anyway I think we could talk
2:23:32about this for hours and I actually
2:23:34think I mean I do like to talk about
2:23:36that some
2:23:37because the way I got
2:23:41uh more intimately familiar with these
2:23:44topics was by some individuals um
2:23:47talking about this more uh Glenn lry and
2:23:50uhan
2:23:52Hughes um have you heard Hughes the what
2:23:55Coleman
2:23:56Hughes I actually I followed him a
2:23:58little bit but not nearly as much as
2:24:00Glenn Lowry and uh John McWater they had
2:24:03have a wonderful podcast which in the
2:24:05aftermath of of some of my exposure to
2:24:07this stuff was one of the first things
2:24:09that someone pointed with towards that
2:24:10was really an eye opener to have these
2:24:13two imminent um black Scholars go
2:24:16through some of it and say things at a
2:24:18time where it felt like there racial
2:24:20identity allowed them to say things and
2:24:22not get blown into space yeah at the
2:24:25really height of some of this stuff um
2:24:28was really influential and um I can
2:24:32highly recommend that the other one I'd
2:24:34recommend and this is again coming from
2:24:36someone who like I've considered myself
2:24:38a liberal my whole life right like if
2:24:41you do big five analysis on my
2:24:43personality type I'm G to match up quite
2:24:45liberal um which meant that to some
2:24:48extent I was actually literally ignorant
2:24:51about the other side of the argument
2:24:52that conservatism for example was a
2:24:56parody Or it was inhibited by these
2:24:59cartoon characters um that didn't have
2:25:02any intellectual depth and then once I
2:25:04started reading conservative thinkers
2:25:06with intellectual depth like Thomas sa
2:25:08was one of my favorites um what is it
2:25:11the cosmic Justice and he has like
2:25:14there's a trifactor um of of books that
2:25:16are really influential on me and
2:25:19listening to Glenn Lowry even mwater I
2:25:21mean I wouldn't classify McWater as
2:25:23conservative Lowry yes but not mwater
2:25:25just oh [ __ ] here's some articulated
2:25:28arguments whether I buy them or I don't
2:25:30buy them getting that exposure to the
2:25:33most articulate form of the argument on
2:25:36the other side and as most of these
2:25:38things are and this is one of Thomas
2:25:40sa's main things that really hammered at
2:25:42home for me they are trade-offs right
2:25:45like there's not a solution to say
2:25:47poverty yeah just take that for there's
2:25:50different ways of configuring those
2:25:51trade-offs and they're they can be more
2:25:54effective or less effective but there
2:25:55are trade-offs in in how you you treat
2:25:58that and I came up from it and and tasal
2:26:01really helped
2:26:02me um recognize this I came from things
2:26:05and still do that's still my natural
2:26:07temperament no we can solve it we can
2:26:10just we can solve po poverty for example
2:26:13why can't we solve poverty just like I
2:26:15was thinking we can solve web
2:26:17application development um and that is
2:26:20one of those main main fault lines
2:26:22between conservativism and liberalism at
2:26:24least as Thomas Al diagnoses it that
2:26:26conservatives believes in tradeoffs and
2:26:28liberals beliefs in Solutions and I
2:26:31think you need some of both like I still
2:26:33like some of the ideals even if I'm
2:26:37wised up on like their in feasibility
2:26:39but like of solutions I want to work
2:26:41towards some solutions but salul has
2:26:43made a very persuasive argument that
2:26:45like to you on what um okay fine just
2:26:48don't believe you're going to get there
2:26:49believe that tradeoffs and there are hey
2:26:52we could get to zero there's 42,000
2:26:55people died on us roads last year that's
2:26:57number of traffic accidents right we
2:26:58could literally cut that to zero
2:27:00tomorrow we ban all Automobiles and all
2:27:03fors of propulsion that travels more
2:27:05than 10 miles an hour boom
2:27:0942,000 lives saved okay what's the
2:27:13tradeoff everyone's lives suck so much
2:27:16more exactly what is what does what does
2:27:18human society look like after that and
2:27:21then you'd get the pics I mean I just
2:27:23set this up as a contrast I can just
2:27:25hear it right now well but public
2:27:27transportation and there's a whole
2:27:29debate that we can have there too right
2:27:30but there's a way to solve 42,000
2:27:33people's death tomorrow we're not going
2:27:35to take it because the trade-offs are
2:27:37insane um and there are a lot of far
2:27:41more Nuance trade-offs than that right
2:27:42that's such an extreme and most people
2:27:44go like yeah well if that's ridiculous
2:27:47um they're trade-offs that are are Ty
2:27:50and harder and become more moral dilemas
2:27:53where different people can actually end
2:27:54up with different conclusions and we
2:27:58we're not going to know necessarily the
2:28:00answer right away this is one of the
2:28:02things for example I felt about uh
2:28:04legalizing pot I remember growing up in
2:28:06Denmark and like I had a bunch of
2:28:07friends who smoked pot and I was always
2:28:09like what the [ __ ] is this illegal um is
2:28:11this really worse than alcohol um I was
2:28:13like legalize it right um and then now
2:28:17we've run the experiment in a bunch of
2:28:18places you're like oh [ __ ]
2:28:21I didn't know that Seattle would smell
2:28:22like a mix of urine and weed everywhere
2:28:26you walk but there you go that's
2:28:28actually that is one of the things I
2:28:29really had not considered I really had
2:28:30not considered what the oral character
2:28:34of a city same thing with New York
2:28:36whether the or character of a city like
2:28:39can change and you can go like oh [ __ ] I
2:28:41really don't like this like maybe
2:28:43alcohol is bad for the individual and
2:28:45there's also other side effects and
2:28:46whatever but like it doesn't stink in
2:28:48the public space and the way it does now
2:28:51again there's a million arguments one
2:28:52way or another this is just one
2:28:54cherry-pick illustration of something I
2:28:56used to considered to be obvious the
2:28:59other thing I also didn't consider to be
2:29:00obvious was like the pot that my friend
2:29:02smoked in the mid 90s was of a certain
2:29:06potency that bears no correlation to the
2:29:11[ __ ] that you buy today right T THC
2:29:14levels and whatever have just like these
2:29:18things have just gotten up imized in
2:29:21part through the expansion of a bigger
2:29:23Market to professionalization uh enabled
2:29:25by legalization and so forth to a point
2:29:27where like oh [ __ ] this is not the same
2:29:29thing anymore these are far more
2:29:32potent um potent things and maybe that's
2:29:35not like just universally good right so
2:29:38I'm not even rendering an a verdict on
2:29:40that I don't I don't know still is the
2:29:42right answer this thing or the other
2:29:44thing what I do know was I had a certain
2:29:47certainty that I certainly don't have
2:29:49anymore yeah reality was able to
2:29:51disabuse me of like this being such an
2:29:53obvious choice and I remember thinking
2:29:57this is again mid 2015s or something
2:29:59like that the US has just started with
2:30:01legalization I forget when that happened
2:30:02exactly and I was like oh man my native
2:30:05Denmark they're so behind the times why
2:30:07can't we legalize it in Denmark and like
2:30:09all the all the things right now I go
2:30:11like ah [ __ ] I'm kind of glad they did
2:30:14like let's let's get this experiment a
2:30:15little longer in the US to see whether
2:30:17we're so sure that it should follow and
2:30:19then could take that even further I
2:30:21actually used to believe um quite
2:30:25strongly that uh you should just
2:30:27legalize all drugs like consent Theory I
2:30:30was definitely very much taken by that
2:30:32if someone chooses that they want to
2:30:34smoke [ __ ] crack or heroin offend all
2:30:37that isn't that their choice and it
2:30:40turns out okay we ran a long run
2:30:42experiment on that especially in San
2:30:43Francisco and on the west coast for well
2:30:45over a decade you like oh [ __ ] no it's
2:30:47not just a personal choice absolutely
2:30:50all sorts of catastrophic societal
2:30:52factors and even on the personal level
2:30:54it's just a human tragedy of almost
2:30:57incomprehensible proportions yeah
2:30:59addiction it changes everything
2:31:02120,000 we just talked about 42,000 car
2:31:04deaths a year right two to three times
2:31:07as many Americans die from overdoses I
2:31:11mean that is just a tremendous
2:31:13catastrophic human catastrophe of just
2:31:17incomparable proportions and we go like
2:31:20holy [ __ ] so if that all came from the
2:31:22fact that oxycoton was essentially
2:31:25legalized in the 90s and not just
2:31:27legalized but halfway pushed and then we
2:31:30ended up with a bunch of people addicted
2:31:32to opioids and then da da now we're here
2:31:36uh [ __ ] maybe Humanity can't take all
2:31:38Temptations maybe we aren't that strong
2:31:41and again this is one of the things now
2:31:43we're really coming full circuit
2:31:44religion knew this religion had all
2:31:46sorts of prohibitions they built in
2:31:48mechanisms like shame
2:31:50and algorithms for enforcing social
2:31:53norms and so forth to make sure that
2:31:54like the Bas human instincts didn't just
2:31:56get free reign right and we threw all
2:32:00that away a lot of that away and we
2:32:03replaced it with you do your thing man
2:32:06whatever you want consent is the golden
2:32:10calf that we will worship or worship
2:32:12Above All Else and as long as there's
2:32:14consent it's all
2:32:17good uh narrator it was old good right
2:32:21so yeah these are really fascinating
2:32:25deep difficult uh moral and societal
2:32:28questions and a lot of these we don't
2:32:32have at all all the answers but we do
2:32:35have some evidence coming back from some
2:32:36of the experiments and I do think it
2:32:40would be prudent to adjust some of our
2:32:42hypothesis about incentives and what
2:32:45happens and how things turn out on the
2:32:48basis of actual experiments run in the
2:32:50wild especially the very Grand ones
2:32:52we've run a lot of West Coast cities in
2:32:55particular on say drug legalization or
2:32:58harm reduction theories or whatever that
2:33:00kind of didn't paint out the way they
2:33:01did even if I personally if you had
2:33:03asked me 10 years ago I would have gone
2:33:05that sound that sounds nice like yeah uh
2:33:08all right drug addicts let's give them
2:33:09clean needles and and whatever just like
2:33:12maybe then they'll come to their senses
2:33:13and like oh okay no that wasn't that
2:33:16didn't make a
2:33:17dent yeah um I listen to to a podcast
2:33:20called econ talk which is very much on
2:33:23the pro capitalist side of Economics
2:33:25podcasts and it does disappoint me that
2:33:27they rarely talk about addiction I just
2:33:30feel it's so important it's like it's
2:33:33not as simple as like oh I'm going to
2:33:34use my free will to go and buy something
2:33:36because it brings me value and it's like
2:33:39if if like maybe cocaine is valuable or
2:33:43you know whatever it is but it's just
2:33:44like would you want to do that if you
2:33:46weren't addicted to it um and know it's
2:33:50difficult because even that one I've
2:33:52known a lot of people taken a fair
2:33:53amount of cocaine a
2:33:56lot companies and and did not become
2:33:59addicted they did not become addict
2:34:01right um now what does that mean like
2:34:05there are some substances there's lots
2:34:08of people who took Oxycontin and to get
2:34:09over healing whatever they did not
2:34:11become addicts um but there there's also
2:34:15okay on a grand scale when you run the
2:34:17experiment a large run right what what
2:34:20happens and clearly sometimes our
2:34:24intuitions are just they're not correct
2:34:26right we think one thing and another
2:34:28thing happened and and we should adjust
2:34:30our sales like the wind changes I mean
2:34:33when as evidence comes in you should
2:34:35update your mental models right um this
2:34:37is what is the famous quote about um
2:34:40like someone some politicians being
2:34:42accused of flip-flopping on an issue and
2:34:44he goes like well I update my opinions
2:34:47when new information arrives what do you
2:34:49do
2:34:50sir um so I try to stay in that mode I
2:34:54really do um that like I try to develop
2:34:58mental models to have an understanding
2:34:59of what the world is and how it
2:35:02functions I I will say now and this is a
2:35:05function of age at 45 I have a higher
2:35:09degree of humility associated with those
2:35:10mental models and their ability to be
2:35:13long-term correct and I have more of a
2:35:16keen interest um of updating those
2:35:19models when reality proves them wrong
2:35:21for sure yeah I always try to like watch
2:35:24debates on YouTube between you know on
2:35:27any political or social topic something
2:35:29like that where it's like I'll have
2:35:31friends saying this is the obvious truth
2:35:32and I'll go okay I'll go watch a debate
2:35:34on it and's like man it's like it's not
2:35:37that clearcut um and uh it's the same
2:35:40with like yeah looking at evidence in
2:35:42terms of act experim to get run in the
2:35:44wild like you learn so much more from
2:35:46that than just from being in a bubble
2:35:49and just absorbing the zire from that
2:35:53yep yep and I think it's um it's not
2:35:56easy to do and I think one of the things
2:35:59I've been on the lookout for as I've
2:36:01been updating these mental models I
2:36:02think the other Instinct we have is we
2:36:04want to be tribal right we want to
2:36:06associate with larger group of people we
2:36:07want to feel protected we want to feel
2:36:09part of the community whatever it's it's
2:36:12it's not it's quite easy in your process
2:36:15of updating mental modelage just to like
2:36:16flip it right like okay I used to
2:36:19believe this thing and now traumatic
2:36:21Insight happen red pill blue pill white
2:36:24pill there's a lot black there's a black
2:36:26pill now I don't know what it means I
2:36:28haven't even I can't keep track of all
2:36:29the pills you take one of the pills and
2:36:31all of a sudden like your worldview is
2:36:32changed and like now you're on team
2:36:34whatever 74 you were on 24 before and
2:36:37now you're on
2:36:3874 um to which degree can we kind of try
2:36:41to push back against that and still live
2:36:43in a connected world where we have
2:36:45people who believe roughly the same
2:36:47things and so forth and I I'm trying to
2:36:49expand my personal tolerance for that
2:36:53kind of descent and it's one of the
2:36:55characters that's helped me with that um
2:36:57not that he knows about it is Elon Musk
2:37:00I used to be very very critical and
2:37:02negative about almost everything that
2:37:03Elon um did and I still quite crial
2:37:07about a huge inventory of things that
2:37:09that man has up to and it's a but I'm
2:37:12also recognizing all right I Canna have
2:37:14a laer list of [ __ ] I think that Elon is
2:37:16a [ __ ] for doing and then I can also
2:37:19look look at the laundry list of just
2:37:21undeniable contributions to humanity
2:37:24that that individual has pushed through
2:37:25more or less single-handedly and go like
2:37:28when I weigh these things right oh
2:37:31dude's an [ __ ] on Twitter posts uh
2:37:34Saucy memes in a way that's not
2:37:36befitting someone of his stature
2:37:38whatever I that that has some pool on
2:37:40this um and then there's the other thing
2:37:42oh I mean single-handedly changes the
2:37:44automotive industry in terms of
2:37:46electrification sending Rockets toward
2:37:49words Mars might save the stranded
2:37:52astronauts and the space St like okay
2:37:55actually now at least I go like all
2:37:57right this weighs heavier for me even if
2:37:58I still recognize all the same stuff but
2:38:01what's even more important than which
2:38:02way the scale goes is that there is a
2:38:04scale and there's stuff over here and
2:38:07there's stuff over there and sometimes
2:38:09the scale goes a little like this and
2:38:10sometimes the scale goes a little like
2:38:12that it goes up and down and that
2:38:14is that is The Human Experience we're
2:38:16full of contradictions and we're full of
2:38:19dwell ities and we're full of uh truths
2:38:22and falsehoods and that's not a card
2:38:25blanch that again it's not full
2:38:26relativism it's but not postmodernism is
2:38:28not that everyone has their own truth
2:38:29and there's nothing we can be sure of
2:38:31whatever whatever it's just that life
2:38:33for me is more interesting when I have a
2:38:35a broader tolerance of trying to
2:38:38understand different humans and where
2:38:39they're coming from whether I agree with
2:38:41them or not um like what constitutes
2:38:45Beyond The Pale needs to be truly beyond
2:38:47the pale and I feel like that that's the
2:38:50that's the spectrum that have been
2:38:51shrinking for a lot of folks in really
2:38:55bad ways and I think this is one there's
2:38:57a great video on YouTube by this guy uh
2:39:01William B Buckley I think is his name
2:39:03and he had this show called The Firing
2:39:06Line and there's a great episode from
2:39:08the 60s where he's this conservative
2:39:11thinker right and he he invites this
2:39:14black panther onto a show right like
2:39:17black panther with all the ideology of
2:39:19the Black Panthers in the late 60s
2:39:21full-on armed Revolution and all the
2:39:23things right and and William Buckley and
2:39:26this guy from the black panters just sit
2:39:28there and relatively calmly have a
2:39:31discussion about
2:39:34ideology oppression the US whatever and
2:39:37I just go like that's freaking amazing
2:39:41like that breath of spectrum of being
2:39:44literally curiously interested in what
2:39:47like quote unquote the other side has to
2:39:48say about topics and really understand
2:39:50their point of view oh my god it feels
2:39:53like it's from A Lost
2:39:55Civilization right like you go on
2:39:57Twitter and it's basically nothing but
2:39:58people just screaming slogans at each
2:40:00other in all directions um and then you
2:40:03look at the firing line and go like holy
2:40:05[ __ ] Society could be constructed like
2:40:07this we could like that was Prime Time
2:40:10television Prime Time [ __ ] television
2:40:13did you had two people just sit like and
2:40:14discuss ideas relatively calmly without
2:40:17screaming at each other holy [ __ ]
2:40:19amazing inspirational well David I've
2:40:22taken up probably more than enough of
2:40:24your time um it's been a blast uh thanks
2:40:27for coming on the podcast and uh I'll be
2:40:30keeping up with your latest updates on
2:40:33your Linux Journey well thank you so
2:40:35much and thanks for the invitation and
2:40:37the very deep uh philosophical societal
2:40:40sociological exploration we went on I
2:40:43think that is uh it's a lot of fun to
2:40:45talk about these things and I'm really
2:40:47happy that the overtone window has
2:40:49reopened to a degree that like
2:40:51conversations like these are possible
2:40:53and that hopefully people whether they
2:40:55agree or they disagree or even strongly
2:40:58or whatever are able to just go like oh
2:41:00all right I'll enjoy a conversation and
2:41:01I don't have to agree with all of it and
2:41:03maybe I get a little inspired about some
2:41:04things and I don't like other things and
2:41:07also then life goes on afterwards people
2:41:09set words to each other in exploration
2:41:11of ideas and like that doesn't have to
2:41:13melt down my inner World here like I'm
2:41:16able to comprehend that different people
2:41:18can look at it differently
2:41:21and we live Dave it's been a pleasure
2:41:25all right thanks so
2:41:26much all right that was a lot of fun um
2:41:30I hope you enjoyed that um let me just
2:41:32quickly plug my startup subel you might
2:41:35have heard me mention it during that
2:41:36interview um suble is a uh product which
2:41:41helps you manage your SAS subscriptions
2:41:44within your company so if you have like
2:41:47the typical tech company just has a
2:41:48bunch of subscriptions to like slack and
2:41:50GitHub and jro and confence and you know
2:41:54every employee has access but half of
2:41:56them aren't really using the licenses
2:41:58and so you're kind of just wasting money
2:42:00um on licenses that AR being used or
2:42:03maybe an employee leaves but nobody has
2:42:05removed them from some uh product
2:42:09meaning that they still have say access
2:42:10to GitHub or something like that um all
2:42:13those problems are what subul tries to
2:42:16solve so uh if you're interested in that
2:42:19um I'll add a link in the description or
2:42:21just go to
2:42:23www.s.com that's subel spelled subl l e
2:42:28so it rhymes with bubble um but uh with
2:42:32that thanks for watching and I'll see
2:42:34you next time

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