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1. 0:00think that's the best assumption well uh
2. 0:03is it your testimony that you didn't
3. 0:04know in connection with your
4. 0:05participation in the 99 and 2000 to Def
5. 0:08France races that there was no test
6. 0:11being administered for the presence of
7. 0:13epo well if the question is did I read a
8. 0:17public announcement that the OT test is
9. 0:19ready to go and will be implemented in
10. 0:2099 or 2000 that didn't they didn't say
11. 0:24that so okay I'm not trying to apply
12. 0:27anything by this I'm just trying to find
13. 0:28out this your State of Mind perspective
14. 0:30to what she knows being tested for
15. 0:31that's all um well what's yeah you know
16. 0:34I think it would be fair to say that in
17. 0:362000 for example they didn't have the
18. 0:39EPO test
19. 0:40perfected so
20. 0:42perhaps athletes could have taken EPO
21. 0:46and gotten away with
22. 0:48it what was great for
23. 0:51us was that we were formerly
24. 0:53investigated in France and all of our
25. 0:54samples were
26. 0:56seized at a time when you could have
27. 0:59taken even because they didn't have the
28. 1:00test ready but all of the samples were
29. 1:03seized and tested with this method and
30. 1:06were clean okay what what samples would
31. 1:09these have been from the 2000 tour okay
32. 1:12when were They seized I don't know
33. 1:14whenever the judge wanted them okay
34. 1:17which we again override overrode the
35. 1:19uci's decision and said no give them
36. 1:22nothing to
37. 1:23hide okay where were the samples
38. 1:26maintained at the time they were I have
39. 1:27no
40. 1:28idea okay in
41. 1:30Europe do you know where could be more
42. 1:32specific do you know who maintained them
43. 1:35no
44. 1:36idea do you know if there's any um of
45. 1:40those samples
46. 1:42left we know Herman hasn't eaten them
47. 1:45sure not this morning anyway God
48. 1:49Almighty hope that's on the record that
49. 1:51would definitely be on if I if I heard
50. 1:53it that mic heard itead
51. 2:00no I I don't I don't know stop giving
52. 2:02the witness signals through through
53. 2:04bodily
54. 2:05functions I don't know if if uh if there
55. 2:08I have no idea I mean do you know if
56. 2:10there's anything left from those samples
57. 2:11for examp I have no idea okay um what
58. 2:14about the 99 samples um that were
59. 2:17reported in the L story uh I'm going to
60. 2:19ask you some questions about that first
61. 2:22uh obviously you've had an opportunity
62. 2:23to review the story and the writing that
63. 2:26was I read the story but well you you
64. 2:29certainly had translated for you haven't
65. 2:30you the entire story yeah no I mean
66. 2:36you you surely didn't appear on TV and
67. 2:38talk about it and never actually read
68. 2:39the whole thing of course okay
69. 2:44um all right well fair
70. 2:47enough um do you know whether or not the
71. 2:50samples which have been identified as
72. 2:52yours mhm are in fact yours I have no
73. 2:56idea I I I I can only believe that they
74. 3:00either are not mine or have been
75. 3:02manipulated because when I pissed in the
76. 3:05bottle as I told you earlier having
77. 3:07never taken performance Hing drugs when
78. 3:09I pissed in the bottle there was not EO
79. 3:10in that piss or
80. 3:13urine and as the article
81. 3:16said the accused cannot defend
82. 3:20himself so I have a clear conscience
83. 3:22going on TV without reading the article
84. 3:25okay because the first paragraph says oh
85. 3:27by the way he cannot defend himself
86. 3:33well I guess there's a third possibility
87. 3:34which is the test is just wrong
88. 3:36right I'm not a scientist I don't know I
89. 3:39know that without uh proper procedure
90. 3:42and protocol
91. 3:43that you cannot defend yourself okay but
92. 3:47have you actually looked to see whether
93. 3:48or not the samples that were identified
94. 3:50as yours are in fact not yours I don't
95. 3:52mean the actual urine in it but that the
96. 3:55the the match between the numbers match
97. 3:58up with I have not loved do you know if
98. 4:01anyone's investigating that on your I
99. 4:05think that the UCI has an independent
100. 4:08investigation going on perhaps wada has
101. 4:10one going
102. 4:11on have you had any contact with anyone
103. 4:14at wada regarding their investigation if
104. 4:16any no in the beginning we contacted
105. 4:18dick pound what did he
106. 4:20say uh he
107. 4:23said
108. 4:26uh this this was quite frankly one of
109. 4:29the most
110. 4:30incredible conversations I've ever heard
111. 4:32but he said listen I don't care if
112. 4:35proper procedure was followed all that I
113. 4:37care is that you're
114. 4:40positive and he went on to say that
115. 4:43whoever invented the B sample I don't
116. 4:46what they think this is [ __ ] nobody
117. 4:47needs the B
118. 4:49sample this is the man
119. 4:52who's supposedly pioneered the water
120. 4:55coat and trumped it all over the world
121. 4:59you know I said that that's the Saving
122. 5:01Grace to sport we said well can we just
123. 5:03read over the water code and he said
124. 5:04well hang on let me get let me pull it
125. 5:06up so he had to go to his computer and
126. 5:09we finally cut him off so don't worry
127. 5:10about it I think we
128. 5:12understand that's about the only thing
129. 5:15on conversation I mean do you do you
130. 5:17view dick pound as a individual not
131. 5:20friendly towards
132. 5:23yourself I don't think Dick's friendly
133. 5:26to towards most athletes I mean I'm sure
134. 5:28we all read the NHL comments last week
135. 5:31yeah um what about UCI do you view the
136. 5:34the UCI is impartial in these
137. 5:36Affairs oh yeah
138. 5:38absolutely um it's been reported neutral
139. 5:41you mean neutral that's what I mean
140. 5:42neutral not favoring you or anyone or
141. 5:44not against you or any right um do you
142. 5:48think wada has an agenda though with
143. 5:50respect to you for example no
144. 5:52I you know I think if you read my open
145. 5:56letter to Dick pound some time ago it
146. 5:59wouldn't be hard hard to imagine that
147. 6:00dick wasn't very happy about
148. 6:02that um is it is it even possible for
149. 6:05I'm not going to use you but let's say
150. 6:07an athlete who who won the Tour to
151. 6:10France in
152. 6:1197 uh and let's say they used the 97
153. 6:15samples instead of the 99 and determined
154. 6:17from a from an a sample that that
155. 6:19athlete tested positive for a band
156. 6:21substance to your knowledge is it
157. 6:23possible to to withdraw or vacate that
158. 6:27individual's championship in the toural
159. 6:29resp they use the a sample or they use
160. 6:32the B sample let's just say they use the
161. 6:33a sample and they had the B sample no
162. 6:36same circumstances I'm just using a
163. 6:38different athlet I it to your knowledge
164. 6:40is it possible under tour to France's
165. 6:41rules to to strip a
166. 6:44title years after it takes place without
167. 6:47a confirmation sample correct
168. 6:49no if there is a confirmation sample
169. 6:52that's listen that's the system that's
170. 6:53been in place since the since the
171. 6:55beginning
172. 6:56of the doping fight so they've changed
173. 7:00the rules all of a
174. 7:02sudden uh if there is a confirmation uh
175. 7:05of an athlete using a ban substance who
176. 7:07is a champion uh do you know if there's
177. 7:10a procedure mechanism in place under the
178. 7:12tour to France rules to to vacate that
179. 7:14person's title I have no idea
180. 7:20okay now um we were talking about W and
181. 7:24UCI you have made a a a contribution or
182. 7:28donation to The UCI have you not I have
183. 7:31yeah would you know when that was
184. 7:33made some years ago I don't recall
185. 7:36exactly uh 2000 for
186. 7:40example I don't
187. 7:43know was it uh uh was there anything
188. 7:46that occasioned that that you recall
189. 7:48like I'm doing it because of X or Y or Z
190. 7:51I'm doing it to to fund the fight
191. 7:54against
192. 7:56doing and what what made you
193. 8:00what triggered that was there any
194. 8:01particular
195. 8:03event the only event or the only uh idea
196. 8:07is that I'm in support of that
197. 8:10b just like I've done on other occasions
198. 8:13why
199. 8:14UCI why give the money to UC because
200. 8:17they're our governing body okay how much
201. 8:19did you give uh I think
202. 8:2425,000 you say you think do you yeah I'd
203. 8:27say I think because I'm not 100% sure
204. 8:29would it be within a range of that
205. 8:31though if you're I mean it wouldn't be
206. 8:33like 200,000 or 150,000 no I mean it
207. 8:36could be 30 or 40 or could be 20 is what
208. 8:39I'm
209. 8:40asking it could be I don't think it's
210. 8:42that but I think it's no more than 30
211. 8:46was it by personal check I don't
212. 8:49remember uh did you tell UCI you were
213. 8:51going to make it before you
214. 8:54did
215. 8:56um I don't recall but but I don't think
216. 9:00so I don't
217. 9:04know you gave
218. 9:06$25,000 or approximately $25,000 to the
219. 9:09UCI but you don't remember if you told
220. 9:11them beforehand you're sending them a
221. 9:13check I don't recall had you ever given
222. 9:16any money to UCI before no have you ever
223. 9:18given any money since um I have pledged
224. 9:22money since but I I don't think I've
225. 9:23done it yet when is your pledge money I
226. 9:26don't remember between now and then
227. 9:30no I meant when did you make the
228. 9:32pledge between now and then I don't
229. 9:34recall exactly well between now and then
230. 9:36meaning between the time you gave him
231. 9:37the
232. 9:3925 now and then which I guess would be
233. 9:42tomorrow um okay uh so still a fight I
234. 9:46believe in okay so make the donation I'm
235. 9:48not attacking your the fight I'm asking
236. 9:51and if you have a different suggestion
237. 9:52on where to donate the money well is
238. 9:55there any other organization that that
239. 9:56is involved in anti-doping
240. 9:59well you have a lot of organizations W
241. 10:01usada usoc USA cycling pick all those so
242. 10:05there were other I mean there are there
243. 10:06at least other organizations you get a
244. 10:07pick yeah okay what uh do you know what
245. 10:11UCI did with the money I don't know who
246. 10:13did you give the money
247. 10:15to well if you sent a check or a wire I
248. 10:18don't know who received it but but I
249. 10:20mean like is it literally like one day
250. 10:23the UCI guy comes in opens up the mail
251. 10:25there's a check from you for $25,000 I I
252. 10:27I don't know I wasn't in the mail room
253. 10:28okay but did did you let anyone know
254. 10:30this is coming I told you I don't
255. 10:33remember okay uh have you spoken to
256. 10:35anyone at UCI regarding your donation uh
257. 10:39yeah who I have spoken to Alan
258. 10:43room uh and
259. 10:48buan perhaps others you know what
260. 10:51they've done with the money I just told
261. 10:54you I don't know okay like they didn't
262. 10:56buy some specific equipment or something
263. 10:57with it that you're aware of was an ear
264. 11:00Mark which part of I don't know do you
265. 11:02not understand so you have no idea why
266. 11:04you gave $25,000 to UCI at all and you
267. 11:07don't even know if you called anyone
268. 11:08before my question finish your question
269. 11:11have no idea who who you called and just
270. 11:13you just sent a check for $25,000 to the
271. 11:16UCI you can't remember why you did it or
272. 11:17who you talked to or what it was for you
273. 11:19asked me again what have they done with
274. 11:22the money and I said I don't know okay
275. 11:24but you've spoken to two people have
276. 11:26they discussed with you what they plan
277. 11:27on doing with the funds in any way or
278. 11:29what they hope to do with the fund not
279. 11:30that I
280. 11:36recall when did you did you ever tell
281. 11:40the public that you had made that
282. 11:42donation
283. 11:45um H buan told them at some point and I
284. 11:49confirmed
285. 11:52that was there a reason why you didn't
286. 11:54publicly announce your donation to UCI
287. 11:58the same reason that I don't my fight
288. 12:01against doping is not a public
289. 12:03fight it's the same reason that before
290. 12:06the 2003 tour to France which was fairly
291. 12:08well publicized I sent a private
292. 12:12email to Mr vergan Mr shenberg Mr
293. 12:15LeBlanc Daniel Bal everybody involved in
294. 12:18the tour and cycling he said we have to
295. 12:20keep up this fight which then became
296. 12:23public a public email after Danielle
297. 12:24ball put it in his
298. 12:26book personally
299. 12:30now this is going this is going to shock
300. 12:34you but my style is different than David
301. 12:38walshes um my Approach has been more of
302. 12:41an internal one to support clean racing
303. 12:44to support clean
304. 12:46sport my idea of the best tactic is not
305. 12:50to slander and defam everybody and bite
306. 12:52the hand that feeds you and piss in the
307. 12:56suit but my fight and my commitment has
308. 12:59always been
309. 13:02there were were you concerned at all
310. 13:05when you made your contribution to the
311. 13:06UCI that uh other cyclists or members of
312. 13:10the the cycling public might take it the
313. 13:12wrong
314. 13:14way no are you aware of any other
315. 13:17professional cyclist who's given money
316. 13:18to UCI I don't know I'm not
317. 13:23aware personally I think there should be
318. 13:25I think I think everybody should
319. 13:27contribute to the fund how does UCI get
320. 13:29money do you
321. 13:31know I have no
322. 13:34idea I honestly I don't
323. 13:37know that part of I don't know I
324. 13:39understood believe
325. 13:41me
326. 13:50um there's uh been allegations regarding
327. 13:54what has been alleged to be a positive
328. 13:57drug test by you um for a steroid or
329. 14:02cortisone in connection with the wait a
330. 14:05steroid or cortisone cortisone I'm sorry
331. 14:07I apologize let because they're
332. 14:09different I understand I understand
333. 14:11believe me um one is actually anabolic
334. 14:14and one is actually catabolic okay okay
335. 14:16I'm I'm aware of that
336. 14:20um well let me ask connection with the
337. 14:23testing done for the tour to France does
338. 14:24UCI supervise and oversee that
339. 14:30if you know I don't know I mean uh when
340. 14:33you step into the RV or the the the room
341. 14:37where you give the urine sample there is
342. 14:39a representative from the UCI obviously
343. 14:42and a representative
344. 14:45from perhaps the French Ministry of
345. 14:47sport or somewhere I so there's a
346. 14:49representative
347. 14:51there um how how much notification are
348. 14:56you given for testing