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0:03What did those we read and watch today
0:06read and watch? How did these books and
0:09films help them find themselves? And
0:11how can they help us change? In the
0:16White Studio stands one of the most
0:17brilliant theater directors, whose
0:19productions always evoke a vibrant
0:21response from audiences and colleagues
0:23alike. His directing career began 30
0:25years ago at the formal theater he
0:27founded, which became a phenomenon in
0:30the theatrical life of Russia and the
0:32world. Specifically, he won the Grand
0:34Prix at the world's most prestigious
0:36Öborg Festival for his production of "
0:38School for Fools," based on the novel
0:40by Sasha Sokolov. For over 10 years, he
0:43directed at the Alexandrinsky Theater,
0:45where his productions also became
0:47landmark events. And for four years now
0:49, he has been the artistic director of
0:52the legendary Povstanogov Bolshoi Drama
0:55Theater in St. Petersburg. He is one of
0:57the most award-winning Russian
0:59directors, a three-time winner of the
1:02Golden Mask Award. And this year, his
1:04production of Ostrovsky's play "The
1:06Storm" is up for an award. Andrei
1:08Moguchy is directing in the White
1:10Studio. Andrei Anatolyevich, we'll
1:13start with your childhood, with the
1:15works that influenced you as a child.
1:18The film "The Secret of the Iron Door,"
1:20because it also involved meeting Alisa
1:23Brunovna Fendlich. Yes, Alisa Brunovna
1:25is a whole other world.
1:27She played the main character's mother.
1:28Well, listen, of course, as a child, I
1:30was most interested in matches.
1:31Yes, magical ones.
1:32Where could I get them? Where could I
1:33get matches like that?
1:34Oh, to make a wish for you. No, what
1:36surprised me most was that this boy
1:38ordered so many boxes for himself. I
1:40thought there could be a simpler way to
1:43keep the matches from running out. To
1:46make a wish. That's what excited me
1:48most. I noticed this later, when I
1:50decided to rewatch the film as an adult
1:52. I was surprised to discover that FNLH
1:54was playing in it.
1:55And you got your dad.
1:56It was, yes, it was absolutely
1:58fantastic, of course. I was very
1:59surprised. It was a much bigger
2:01discovery, well, in adulthood. What's
2:04most interesting is that, despite their
2:06roles being very fragmented, both
2:08manage, firstly, to bring out their
2:11signature style, both Alisa Brunovna
2:13and Oleg Pavlovich, and the comedy, and
2:15at the same time, they quarrel. And
2:18there's this moment, like the sudden
2:20destruction of this childish world, in
2:22which dad suddenly says to mom, "You
2:24fool." It's such a tragedy, basically,
2:26a mini-tragedy for a child, hearing
2:28such a thing for the first time. These
2:31magic matches. In general, let's say,
2:33if you had magic matches now, would
2:36you handle them any differently than
2:38you did as a child, or would your
2:40desires generally be in roughly the
2:43same direction? I don't know, maybe I'd
2:47throw them out today, but I'm just
2:50being clever, but in reality, I don't
2:54feel like being clever right now; I
2:57want to somehow engage in a sincere,
3:00genuine conversation. It seems to me
3:04that, in fact, yes, this film probably
3:06has a similar philosophy. I actually
3:08remember watching it once, actually,
3:10back in Mongolia. It's amazing that my
3:13parents took me to the Lenin Club. My
3:16father worked there for
3:18five years. And, in general, I kind of
3:21remember that context of that film. But
3:23, uh, now is not Mongolia. When I'm not
3:27in Mongolia, when I'm not a child, I
3:30understand that, of course, the main
3:32task is to try to manage to change
3:35yourself over the course of your own
3:37life, to learn to change yourself. On
3:41your own, without any matches. That's
3:44why I said so pathetically: "I would
3:46have thrown them out." Well, maybe I
3:48would have regretted it, maybe broken
3:50one or two for the children.
3:52You know, it's very good that you just
3:54said that I want to move away from
3:56smart words and try to speak sincerely.
3:58It's very difficult, because every time
4:01we say that we want to tell the truth,
4:05we immediately begin to lie. That is,
4:08the very words that I want to stop
4:11lying already contain a certain amount
4:14of pathos, and untruth, and cleverness.
4:18It's really difficult to really find
4:20that point at which you begin to be
4:23truthful.
4:23It's the truth, but it exists, and
4:27there's a point in looking for it, too.
4:31It's truly difficult to find, and it
4:35comes at a great cost, uh, and through
4:39hard, hard, hard work. Of course, the
4:42theater profession has something
4:45inherent in it that allows you to study
4:48life. For me, back when I started doing
4:51this, it was a very important moment.
4:53So, for me, theater was a tool, a
4:55toolkit for understanding what was
4:57happening around me, for understanding
4:59myself through certain mechanisms
5:01proposed by Stanislavsky, Grotowski,
5:04and Cech. Here, I could turn to your
5:06production of Ivanov Rypaev's recent
5:09play, "Drunk," because being drunk is,
5:12in fact, a metaphor, a state in which
5:14we let go of what prevents us from
5:17telling the truth, being ourselves, and
5:20so on. It's another matter that this
5:22play is also very much so, because I
5:24read it, and the play itself is also
5:26wonderful.
5:27Many people don't like it. I know what
5:29surprises me.
5:30I think it's simply a really good play.
5:33And why don't they like it? Words.
5:35Oh, well, probably people in Pisa, by
5:37the way, talk about this too. In this
5:39play, people are afraid to say anything
5:41pompous. Yeah, right.
5:43Out loud, because they seem false to
5:46them, but in fact they can be very
5:48genuine, very sincere, exactly the
5:51words that need to be said out loud, aa
5:54, uh, and not be afraid.
5:56Yes.
5:57This play, it’s really very talented.
5:58And it seems to me that, well, if we
6:00talk about drunks, yes, that is, like,
6:01this is a
6:02Sufi metaphor. Sufis, well,
6:04intoxication, intoxication of love for
6:06God, they talk about them, right? That
6:07is, like or like immersion in love. God
6:10is love.
6:10Well, what is intoxication? It’s when
6:12we, at least a little, let go of fear.
6:15Well, like
6:16fear of what people think of us, how we
6:18, well, let’s say, why does a person
6:20drink to tell a woman there, I like you
6:23. What prevents you from saying this
6:25when sober? Well, how she’ll tell you
6:27to go to hell, tell you that you’re
6:29ugly and for what reason, and you
6:31don’t do it. And when you've had a
6:33drink, you're a little less afraid of
6:34that rejection. That's all. You let go
6:36of some inhibition, some fear that
6:39prevents you from being yourself, from
6:41saying what you think is right. There's
6:44also this idea in this play that we
6:46lack freedom. And freedom from what?
6:50There's no freedom, right? One of the
6:52characters says it.
6:53And these words about there being no
6:55freedom and that freedom isn't an end
6:57in itself, but that the end in itself
6:59is love. It's very difficult to digest.
7:01I think most people who love theater
7:04now, and
7:05not only people who love theater, find
7:08it very difficult to digest. Um, me
7:10included. And I think that Vanya, too,
7:14laid down a lot of the right codes in
7:17this play, points, yes, which, in fact,
7:20I don't know about the theater crowd,
7:22because I see the audiences that always
7:25fill the Bolshoi Drama Theater for this
7:28performance. It's always sold out, it's
7:32always sold out, it's always a moment
7:35of, uh, revelation. Mm-hmm.
7:37Yes. And it happens at practically
7:40every performance. This moment of
7:42penetration is, of course, the play's
7:45merit, first of all, penetration into,
7:49uh, what a person wants to hear. So, a
7:52person, a modern person, has a demand
7:55for love not for themselves.
7:57Mm-hmm. That is, a person in today's
7:59situation, when the world is changing,
8:02is looking for some answers, which are
8:05sometimes simply directly stated in
8:07this play. Directly. This sometimes,
8:11perhaps, repels, uh, intellectuals,
8:13right? That is, there is no secondary
8:16plan, no complex pie of psychologism
8:18that we are accustomed to. There are no
8:21secrets there, yes, but somehow
8:23everything is said, practically
8:25propagandized.
8:26Mm-hmm. And in this sense, I think it's
8:29very right. I had one like that, I mean
8:31, it is. Now there is a play called
8:34Happiness.
8:34I adore this production of yours. I
8:36don't know it. We wrote it in big
8:38letters there. To love is happiness.
8:40Correct. Exactly. I remember loving
8:42that.
8:42And these are very important words for
8:45me. Learning to love is very difficult.
8:50It's very difficult because to love is
8:52to give. That is, it's like belonging
8:55to another, when your heart belongs, to
8:58quote Vanya, not to you, not to me,
9:01but it belongs to love. These are very
9:04important words for today.
9:05You are absolutely right that this is a
9:09message, as an actual word, which
9:12Rypaev also uses in his play. He says
9:15that God's message is that we shouldn't
9:17be cowardly and that we should love.
9:20This is, in fact, his message, which he
9:23conveys to us through the story of
9:25Jesus Christ. This message to love is
9:28very difficult to perceive, because a
9:30person perceives everything from a
9:33position of denying what he doesn't
9:35love. That is, it's very easy for
9:38people to organize around some message:
9:40"We don't like white walls, we don't
9:43recognize, I don't know, the Chinese
9:45language, whatever, but we just don't
9:47like it, we don't recognize it, it's
9:49not a term."
9:50Speaking of which, I don't remember how
9:52many words there are in Chinese. There
9:54could be love for one's homeland, for
9:57sweets, uh, infatuation with one's
9:59mother, maternal love—these are all
10:01different words. But in our language,
10:04one word, love, is universal. And it
10:06seems to cover everything: love for
10:07one's grandmother, and love for
10:09something warm.
10:09Well, by the way, Vyrypaev has this
10:11idea that love for one's grandmother,
10:13for warm socks, for a woman, for one's
10:15homeland, and for God—it's all a kind
10:17of, yes, manifestation of a single
10:18whole. But it seems to me that why
10:20these halls—yes, you say they're full
10:23—is that Voropaev has found an
10:24amazing approach. He promotes love
10:28through the rejection of non-love.
10:32That's where all the anger comes from.
10:33Probably, yes. They're probably in a
10:35sort of theatrical time. They quickly
10:38travel this path. It's a
10:40fantasy, a night, a magical night, a
10:42fairy tale, as you said, right? It's
10:44all from childhood, right? And so they
10:46somehow very quickly arrive at
10:48something we don't arrive at in a
10:50lifetime, or even several lifetimes, if
10:53we think about it, right? So he kind of
11:00encodes this story, encodes this story
11:02throughout the play. Many people
11:04actually find it deliberate, almost
11:07unnarrative. What's
11:09interesting here is that the audience,
11:11the public, the people, they completely
11:14perceive it, because it perfectly
11:16resonates with them, the intellectual
11:18elite, so to speak, theater critics and
11:20so on. But the messages they love to
11:23read aren't enough for them. For
11:26example, their favorite message is that
11:28freedom is above all else. And they
11:30don't understand when they're told, "
11:32Love is above freedom." Because for
11:34love, well, how, how, where do we go,
11:36which streets do we take to? We're
11:37ready for love, for freedom, but where
11:40do we go for love? Show me, are you
11:42used to uniting according to this
11:44principle? We don't even know what the
11:47most important thing is, what the most
11:49important thing is, what it consists of
11:52. And all this is our freedom, which we
11:54constantly talk about here, the freedom
11:56we constantly strive for. You want to
12:00be free, right? But from whom, from
12:02what do you want to be free? What the
12:05hell kind of freedom can there be if
12:07we've lost contact?
12:08Happiness, in the play you staged, is
12:12an absolutely wonderful play. An
12:15absolutely wonderful, or rather,
12:16performance. That is, the play is also
12:18good, Miterlenko's Blue Bird, but it's
12:20not the only thing used there. My
12:22friend Kostya Filippov and I wrote it
12:24ourselves, because the trelinka there
12:26is only time left.
12:26Yes. And there is an amazing moment
12:29when she understands what it means to
12:32love and that this is happiness. A
12:34little girl, played by a wonderful
12:36actress from the Alexandrinsky Theater.
12:38And this moment you conveyed, when a
12:41person comes to this understanding, for
12:44me it was like they say, what faith is
12:46—yes, like a person's arrival. Here I
12:49don't believe, but here I suddenly
12:51understand that God exists. Only in
12:53this. Only in this—in this, by giving
12:55up and giving to another—can one
12:57become happy,
12:58feel, yes, sense this state. It may not
13:02last long, it may pass, but these are
13:04moments that are necessary, essential
13:06for a person, without which they cannot
13:08live. And in that performance, of
13:10course, it was important for me to talk
13:11about this with children, because they
13:13are the best interlocutors. You see,
13:14today we have somehow been marked since
13:16childhood. I, apparently,
13:17subconsciously somehow revolve around
13:19this now. Oh, and we talked about it,
13:22everyone who made this play talked
13:24about it with their children, read the
13:27play to them while it was being written
13:29, showed them the sets, or even had the
13:33children make things up for us, giving
13:34us some tips. We asked our children, "
13:36How would you imagine a tiling room
13:37there?"
13:39My son drew something. So, in that
13:42sense, we started from there and talked
13:44—well, while writing this play, we
13:45already talked with the children and
13:47talked about three very important
13:49themes, and about very important themes
13:51for us, well, for all of us. These are
13:53birth, love, and death. There are some
13:55moments that, and not even in the sense
13:58of some kind of amusement park effects,
14:00can evoke some kind of fear. I invited
14:03a professional children's psychologist
14:05to the dress rehearsal.
14:06Yeah. The
14:07premiere is tomorrow. He looked at it
14:09and said, "You'll have big problems
14:11tomorrow, because these themes can
14:13provoke a very strong reaction, and a
14:15strong reaction can spread throughout
14:17the audience." And I was terrified, to
14:20be honest. And in fact, well, it wasn't
14:23the premiere, it was a pre-premiere
14:25showing. Nevertheless, the audience, uh
14:27, that, well, moment of purification at
14:29the end, yes, it was certainly
14:31liberating, because that's what Lakoba
14:33does, did and does, I hope, because I
14:35haven't seen the play in a long time.
14:38Well, this moment of rebirth is
14:40absolutely unique, this girl's
14:43rethinking of this truth,
14:45when it comes to her at such a
14:47borderline moment, actually, at a
14:49borderline moment, when she's already
14:51given up on her life. So we say the
14:53girl gives up her life. Even that
14:56moment is dangerous, right? Ah, and
15:00then they give it to her because she
15:02gave it up. That is, she receives so
15:05much as a gift, so much is given to her
15:08in return, and now she can give so much
15:11back, well, she understands this
15:13mechanism, that the more you give of
15:15love, the more, it turns out, you
15:18receive. The more you penetrate this
15:20world with love, saturate it with love
15:23molecularly, the more you receive.
15:25Remember, come on. Loving is much more
15:29meaningful and important happiness, to
15:32repay this love, than to demand that it
15:35be done. Do you understand
15:39what it means to "not for yourself"?
15:40And you, for example, are getting there
15:41. Mom, I cleaned up my room. I took
15:44everything. I wished Mom all the best.
15:46Mom, I love you. Every day I feel this
15:51energy. This is happiness. My
15:54fears were unfounded. Thank God, this
15:56psychologist, he even called me later,
15:58apologized, said I was wrong.
16:00I think we underestimate children's
16:03ability to understand everything on the
16:06level that...After all, we have a lot
16:09of fear.
16:10Ah, why do we underestimate? We
16:11actually underestimate
16:12children's ability to perceive. You see
16:14, I even remember that, for example,
16:16Ult Disney, yes, it was the first in
16:18history to include the death of the
16:20mother of the main character in a
16:22cartoon, the one we all sympathize with
16:25in Bambi. And in general, it's shocking
16:27how this mother, so beautiful, with her
16:29wide eyes, suddenly dies at the hands
16:32of a hunter. And this is a cult cartoon
16:34that has shaped a huge number of
16:36children. Although, it would seem that
16:37any psychologist would say: "Are you
16:39crazy? Take away how you can kill a
16:40mother, a deer, a tail with white spots
16:42. Do you understand?" But a child
16:44perceives this with a different mind.
16:45They are much closer to a natural
16:48understanding of these things: life,
16:50death.
16:51They are closer to that, right?
16:53Absolutely right. And therefore, in
16:56fact, trying to be a child in your work
16:59, and best of all in life, is a
17:02difficult but important moment, I think
17:06. So said, uh, Oleg Nikolaevich
17:08Korvaichuk, a wonderful composer with
17:11whom I was fortunate to work, who
17:13passed away this summer. Well, yes,
17:15there was also one performance in
17:17Düsseldorf that also featured his
17:18music. And now, in fact, in my last
17:19performance.
17:20Well, but he himself even took part.
17:22That's
17:22not the word.
17:23Yeah. That's a whole other conversation
17:26, how he, yes, shaped the environment.
17:28That, yes, that's unique, because he's
17:30an incredible person. And I even have
17:33some shots like that, well, tame,
17:35amateur ones, when he came, lay down on
17:38the set, started singing,
17:40and everyone fell silent. Well,
17:42basically, he was a genius at shaping
17:44the space. He said that I was acting
17:46like a fool. In that sense, in one of
17:49his speeches, in one of his monologues,
17:52and he had great monologues, and now I
17:55know they're even going to publish part
17:57of them. And he said that some girl had
18:00an operation and they cut out part of
18:03her brain, and she started drawing or
18:05singing or something like that. He says
18:07: "How wonderful it would be if our
18:09brains were all removed at birth." She
18:11said the
18:12whole planet could dance, sing, and
18:15write poetry. I mean, I play, I repeat,
18:20like a fool, like a fool. My hand is
18:23like the first one. Look, it's flying.
18:25I don't know where it'll land. You
18:26really, if you watch Korvaichuk play or
18:29not, you understand this mechanism, why
18:32he was valuable and dear to me, of
18:35course, in his music, but also in how
18:38he sensed some kind of nature, this
18:41nature of such a fool, creating some
18:43kind of fool, creating some kind of
18:46fool. He's a great example. It's very
18:49difficult to approach, because one way
18:51or another we still rationalize a lot
18:54in our lives. The two films that you
19:16named the best, in your opinion, are
19:18about love. Charlie Chaplin's Baby and
19:21Kimkiduk. Spring, Summer, Fall, Winter,
19:24Spring Again. These are two films in
19:26which there is a teacher and a student,
19:29or a person caring for a child and the
19:31child. And this child, on the one hand,
19:34changes a person, on the other, brings
19:37a person back to themselves, and most
19:39importantly, gives them this very
19:42meaning, which is love. So, a child is
19:44truly, in my opinion, the best film
19:46about love, because it is love that
19:48changes both characters and makes them
19:50happy. For you, I know you started
19:53teaching not long ago. Again, you
19:56talked about children's plays, about
19:57you and the children working together
19:59on the children's play "Happiness." And
20:01what can you gain from this contact
20:03with those who are younger than you?
20:06Well, as always, it's really unclear
20:08who learns from whom. And in fact, if I
20:10reveal a secret, I hope no one hears or
20:12sees us. Everyone is watching now,
20:14believe me,
20:15no one knows who learns more, because,
20:18of course, I really like that course.
20:21Well, I guess every teacher says that
20:23about their children, right? Because,
20:27besides trying to tell them something
20:29about what I know, I take a lot from
20:32them, yes, that is, in this sense, I
20:35draw out. Because, by teaching, you
20:37learn—that's clear, yes, but the main
20:39thing is that they bring a new
20:41understanding of the world that I don't
20:43know. I don't know the world. The world
20:45we live in now, I don't know, I don't
20:48understand this reality. And, well,
20:49it's impossible to live in the world
20:51without understanding it. When these
20:53children say certain things, say we
20:55will try, well, so that they manifest
20:58themselves as much as possible as they
21:00are, yes, this is very important. They
21:03are very different, and that's why
21:04their differences make them interesting
21:06. And when they say certain names or
21:09what they like, look, see how they
21:12think, that I sometimes try to keep up
21:15with them, there is a close exchange.
21:18This part of my life is very dear to me
21:21today, because it changes the usual
21:24neural connections. Over the course of
21:26our lives, our brains become overgrown
21:28with these stable, unshakable, very
21:30strong neural connections, yes, yes, as
21:31we know, that is, they become overgrown
21:33with stable, unshakable, very strong
21:35neural connections. And the brain's
21:37neuroplasticity becomes sluggish.
21:39Plasticity becomes non-plastic. The
21:41fact that there is a course now is a
21:44very egoistic moment for me, yes, that
21:47is, in this sense, I'm
21:49blowing my brain out, trying to blow it
21:52out again and trying to, as it were,
21:54understand what the guys are offering
21:57—not to break them, not to teach them
21:59, but to try to somehow understand what
22:02they want to say. They know what they
22:04want to say, or, conversely, they
22:06always know what they want to say, or,
22:08conversely, they know what to say but
22:09don't know how to say it. And here,
22:11there might be some help from me for
22:13them, if they are ready to accept it. I
22:15repeat, yes.
22:16And you know, here's another thing, you
22:18just said that it's important to you
22:19that each of them maintains their
22:21individuality. It's incredibly
22:23difficult, especially when they're
22:25young. Moreover, even if it's
22:26not even about preserving, but now we
22:29have to go back to, well, find
22:31something authentically ours, like,
22:33identify with ourselves. This is
22:35difficult now,
22:36because you mentioned the film, it was
22:38such a sensation in the Soviet Union,
22:40the film by Felix Sobolev, myself and
22:42others. The essence of the film is a
22:44number of experiments, within the
22:46framework of which a person, finding
22:48himself in a group, changes his point
22:50of view to a seemingly impossible one.
22:53That is, he is shown two pyramids, yes,
22:55and
22:56both are white. I call this film "White
22:58."
22:58Both white, yes. This is also something
23:00that our White Studios are especially
23:01good at. Both white.
23:02You know, just recently we said: "Both
23:04white" in connection with a play by a
23:06very famous director, I will not
23:08mention his name now, simply so as not
23:10to offend a very distinguished person.
23:12It's just such a masterpiece.
23:14But maybe I should just go and offend?
23:16You see, for me, I don't have enough.
23:19You see, Andrey, in fact, my
23:21intoxication is not enough for me. But,
23:25in my opinion, his—his last, in my
23:27opinion, maybe this is not true, by the
23:29way—but his last work, it is not very
23:31successful. But, relatively speaking,
23:34to say that this play or this book, or
23:37this film is by a director recognized,
23:39relatively speaking, by the cultural
23:42stratum, or, conversely, that you liked
23:45something made by a director who is not
23:48recognized by this cultural stratum—
23:51that is so difficult. That is, you
23:53immediately experience some incredible
23:55resistance from the environment. What
23:57is this? After all, we are talking
23:59about people who are constantly in a
24:01state of search, excavation of this
24:03identity of theirs. Why is it that the
24:05greatest clannishness is characteristic
24:08of these people? I
24:09don’t know. Well, listen, I think
24:12that this is simply characteristic of
24:14all people.
24:15Well, you follow yourself, you follow
24:16yourself,
24:17naturally, too. I follow myself. Well,
24:19of course, like all people, we are used
24:21to seeing labels and not seeing the
24:23reality that lies behind these labels.
24:26Well, learning to see reality is very
24:29difficult, it's almost impossible, I
24:32would say.
24:33And when I put two pyramids, a white
24:35and a black one, what will you say?
24:38Both.
24:39And you?
24:39Both white.
24:40You are
24:41both white.
24:42Excellent. Remember everything. So, we
24:44can conduct an experiment together.
24:46What color are the pyramids?
24:49Both.
24:51Andryushenka, look, what color are the
24:54pyramids?
24:55Both,
24:57Olenka. What color are the pyramids?
24:59Both,
25:01Lenochka, what color are the pyramids?
25:03Obela.
25:05Please move the black one closer to you
25:07. And why did you say it was white? Why
25:12? I don't
25:12know. You don't
25:13know? That's why
25:16they also said faith, the
25:18children said,
25:21well, the criterion of success.
25:22In principle, who needs this success?
25:24What is it for?
25:25Here we are all climbing the Posol icy
25:27mountain and somehow clinging with our
25:29nails, yes, and climbing, climbing,
25:31climbing to this peak. But as soon as
25:33you let go, you slide down, and
25:34everyone's afraid of that, sort of. But
25:36maybe you just need to let go? We're
25:38all talking about the same thing,
25:39really. I feel like this is such a
25:42false world,
25:43in which, uh, everything is taken for
25:47reality, for an existing reality. And
25:50such incredible significance is
25:52attached to it. That is, a person, this
25:55is also what amazes me, that a person
25:58doesn't become better after watching, I
26:01don't know, Torkovsky's films, it means
26:05he himself doesn't want to see, it
26:08means he's afraid. To jump, to lower
26:11his hands. Well, in general, fear is,
26:14like, yes, the dominant thing, it's
26:16probably
26:17very complex, you know, as yogis say,
26:19there's also a film that was shot in
26:20Kyiv on Uchma, in general, it was an
26:22absolutely brilliant studio of yogis in
26:25Soviet times, who are they, who also
26:26produced, Indian yogis, who are they,
26:28yes, Indian yogis. And there was also
26:31this phrase about this pose, this pose
26:33of relaxation, seeming very simple, but
26:35this relaxation is very difficult to
26:37achieve. It's sometimes more difficult
26:39than straining yourself and doing five
26:41push-ups, or really lying down and not
26:43thinking about anything, relaxing. That
26:46is, in general, in Hinduism and
26:48Buddhism, it's very important to let go
26:51, yes, to relax, not to be. That's what
26:54Hamlet is, so to speak, how we always
26:56interpret the famous monologue "to be
26:59or not to be." To be, to be yourself, I
27:02don't know, to be free, to decide to
27:05take action. For us, that's important.
27:08But you could just as easily interpret
27:10it as a praise not to be, to fall
27:12asleep and dream. And the only thing is
27:15,
27:15just what kind of dreams? Like,
27:17something unpleasant suddenly presents
27:19itself to us, as he wrote about dreams,
27:21right? Exactly. Well, as Shakespeare
27:23wrote, but what do we dream about in
27:25these dreams? That's what's scary.
27:28And in this sense, perhaps we can now
27:30move on to a conversation about "The
27:32Thunderstorm," about your wonderful
27:34production. Here, fortunately, I can
27:36happily praise what I saw just recently
27:39.
27:39Straight to your face.
27:40Straight to your face, to say: "You are
27:42a genius, Your Majesty." Remember how?
27:43Without embarrassment, I will tell the
27:45whole truth to your face, like Schwartz
27:46. But I would like, we already
27:47remembered Ivan Varypaev today, to
27:49preface this conversation with his
27:51words about "The Thunderstorm."
27:52I know two plays. One is "The
27:54Thunderstorm," and the other is my play
27:55"
27:55July." It
27:56seems to me that these two plays have
27:58encoded some kind of dark energy. It's
28:01as if they have allowed such an
28:03incorrect code into them, which is
28:06already destroying human perception. I
28:09think they shouldn't be shown to people
28:10. I have forbidden people, I will not
28:12allow anyone. Just like in "The
28:13Thunderstorm." Well, you see, it's
28:14suicide; it's as if some kind of bad
28:17thing is hidden in it. It's unclear how
28:20to unravel this play's storm. That
28:21suicide at the end, I think, is
28:23unnecessary for the audience. If you
28:25want to kill a hero, it needs to be a
28:27suicide. You need to be able to unravel
28:30it and construct the structure of the
28:32suicide so that all the tangled threads
28:34that bind people are unraveled and
28:36unraveled.
28:37Interestingly, I think you've managed
28:40to unravel those tangles Vrypaev talks
28:43about. This nothingness into which she
28:46disappears isn't so terrifying. So,
28:50somehow, you've managed to make this
28:53boundary between life and death, so
28:55monstrous for us, a little less
28:57terrifying. You yourself called it a
29:00scary story, right? When children read,
29:02why do they love scary stories? There's
29:04the bear with the fake leg, there are
29:06all these creepy things, right? Because
29:08fairy tales are what live inside us,
29:11like some kind of inner fears; they
29:13give a name to these masks, like in
29:15Kabuki theater, like Delarte's comedy,
29:17like the Lubok you used. These are
29:19masks, like the Africans who make those
29:21scary African masks. What are they?
29:23Evil spirits that Africans fight,
29:26materializing them, as it were. It
29:29seemed to me that we were making, well,
29:31we, that is, we immediately began
29:32making a story, a fairy tale, precisely
29:34a fairy tale, uh, about a beautiful
29:36girl who didn't die, but turned into a
29:38bird. That's what we called it for
29:40ourselves, right? Why don't people fly
29:43like birds? For us, she flew.
29:46That is, it's a question of genre. And
29:47it seems to me that we tried our best,
29:50at least, to approach Ostrovsky, to
29:53grasp his primordiality, yes, that is,
29:56without substituting psychologism for
29:58it. This play was written within the
30:01framework of, well, let's call it that
30:04—play, or street, or
30:06pre-psychological theater, where, uh,
30:09the main focus is on these fairytale
30:11characters who don't change, and,
30:14basically, they remain unchanged until
30:17the very end, right? And we just, uh,
30:20watch what happens to these characters.
30:22Some other conceptual problem is being
30:25explored, connected to human
30:26relationships. Well, let's call it that
30:29—cosmos, or love, or nature, I don't
30:32know, well, something that doesn't
30:35belong to man. This piece was written
30:38before God died. Uh, and, uh, in this
30:41sense, uh, I mean, psychological
30:43noramaturgy and psychological theater
30:45in general arose precisely at the
30:47moment when it's clear that there's no
30:49one to talk to and man is left alone
30:52without God and can only talk to
30:54himself.
30:55And then he began to immerse himself.
30:57And then this multi-layered structure
31:00of man emerged, unable to reach the
31:02very depths, to that secret chamber in
31:05which existentialism and all that other
31:08stuff comes from.
31:09You know, it's interesting, just to
31:12quote what Einstein said, that no
31:14problem can be solved at the level
31:16where it arose. But all psychological
31:18theater solves problems at the level
31:20where they arose. That is, it solves
31:23the problem of our head with our head.
31:26The problems of our psychology with our
31:28psychology. That is, removing this
31:30ingredient that has been around since
31:32the time of ancient Greek theater, so
31:35to speak, the Deus Machina, yes, or
31:37fate, which is the main character of
31:39ancient Greek theater in general, yes,
31:41it's surprising that in the storm, this
31:43element actually appears at the end of
31:45ancient Greek tragedy.
31:46Well, because, I think, it was written
31:49that way, because it's not—I don't
31:51remember who defined it—a bourgeois
31:53drama, but a bourgeois tragedy. And we
31:56viewed it precisely as a tragedy, yes,
31:59we approached it as such.
32:03I don't know why you're so afraid. I'm
32:06not afraid.
32:06Just like the girl, not everyone should
32:08be afraid of Boyantsev. It's not the
32:10thought of being killed that's scary,
32:11but the fact that death will suddenly
32:13find you as you are. With all your sins
32:14, with all your wicked thoughts. I'm
32:16not afraid of dying. What's scary is
32:19the thought of appearing before God.
32:20What's going on with you after this
32:21conversation? That's what's scary. Lord
32:24, what sin is on my mind.
32:26If you approach Ostrovsky with such
32:29master keys, a lot changes there.
32:31Naturally, everything I say, it seems
32:34to me, I don't, God forbid, claim any
32:37ultimate truths, but as soon as you
32:39start thinking of it as a Petrushka
32:42theater, as soon as you see Ugu Square
32:45before you
32:46and the ordinary people standing in
32:48that square, then you begin to speak
32:50differently. You begin to tell these
32:53people a story, some ancient one, some
32:56with very fundamental roots, such
32:59authentic roots, yes, that sit within
33:02each of us. Then everything falls into
33:04place. So, of course, we interpreted
33:06Katerina's confession as a liberation.
33:10She basically relates to our
33:12conversation one way or another. To
33:15name a name or not. She mentioned
33:17someone she loves, Boris Grigorievich.
33:19Yes,
33:20she said, because the most serious sin
33:23for her is lying. And living in this
33:26untruth, in this compote, yes, as if
33:28with an illusion. After all, what's the
33:31rule in this city, yes, that is,
33:33Kalinov, which is also very
33:34metaphorical, because you know, Kalinov
33:36Bridge in Russian is like a place of
33:38transition from life to death, yes,
33:40they go there, yes, the
33:41main rule in this city is do what you
33:44want, but say what you need to.
33:46Say, yes, yes. And everything will be
33:48fine. Yes, everything will be fine.
33:49That is, as if you can do everything,
33:52everything, everything you want. Well,
33:55the main thing is to follow these
33:57immutable rules, these immutable
33:59rituals.
34:00As Varya teaches her. Yes, yes, yes.
34:02Varya, Varya. That's exactly what Varya
34:03says, yes. It's as if this city is
34:05frozen, and therefore not alive. That
34:07is, the property of the living is the
34:09property of change.
34:10Yeah.
34:11And Katerina is alive. It's
34:12interesting, you know, about change.
34:14You already said that we change under
34:15the influence of something. And if we
34:17relate this to what we're now talking
34:19about the comedy of masks or about the
34:22street theater, about Petrushka theater
34:24, where the characters don't change, I
34:26got this idea that maybe this change
34:29we're always thinking about is actually
34:31not so much a change in the sense that
34:34something is changing, but, on the
34:36contrary, a discarding, more like an
34:38excavation, you understand? That is, an
34:40excavation of oneself, a purification,
34:42right? Not a change in the sense that
34:44we're constantly moving onto new stages
34:47, but rather, so to speak, a rocket
34:49that must discard
34:50unnecessary stages.
34:51Well, the same thing happens with King
34:53Lear, in fact, as we know. Yes.
34:56And in this sense, for me, Ostrovsky is
34:58also partly a Russian Shakespeare,
35:00because it's precisely in this playful
35:02nature, yes, that certain truths are
35:04embedded. King Lear is a separate topic
35:07, and it's simply very big for me, and
35:10I'm afraid to touch on it now. That's
35:13why I was simply saying that by
35:16breaking the rules, she returns to
35:18herself. It's simply the only way out
35:20for her, to fly off this cliff, right?
35:22That is, so to speak, so to speak,
35:23there is no other way.
35:24You didn't want to talk about King Lear
35:25? It's a really big topic, but this is
35:28the book of Job and in general, that is
35:32, so to speak, when all your onion
35:34skins are forcibly removed from you,
35:38and ultimately, you are forced to come
35:41to what you are there. What is your
35:44love worth, what is your faith worth?
35:45And what are you yourself? If you
35:48gradually strip away everything that
35:50seems unshakable to you, from status to
35:53love for others, but, by the way, when
35:55you're drunk, and this is also what
35:57we're talking about, about the fact
36:00that you must give everything. I
36:03explain clearly, very clearly, how it
36:06seems, how it all works, to a person
36:08who already has one foot in the grave,
36:11yes, I mean this film festival director
36:14, who is sick with cancer, who already
36:17feels this death, and he has his last
36:20minutes to
36:20understand something in order to
36:23overcome this horror and fear. And he
36:25understands that only giving, that
36:27everything is borrowed for a while.
36:29It's
36:29very difficult, isn't it? It's very
36:31difficult, it also says in the play.
36:33Yes.
36:34To give. Yes,
36:34but it's so difficult, he says.
36:36Is that the hardest thing for you,
36:38giving?
36:39Oh, well, that's very, very much so. Ah
36:48, well, for me, I guess it always comes
36:50down to the children. Well, I'll put it
36:54this way.
36:54Yeah. That's
36:55where it starts.
36:56Yeah, that's exactly the
36:57hardest part for me too. Well, I'll
37:01tell you, you know, one of those, uh, I
37:03don't remember who it was, said that
37:05love is truly like the sun. Well,
37:07that's the one we always talk about,
37:09right? That is, if the sun shines, it
37:11shines equally for everyone. It's just
37:14that life has a configuration where
37:16some are closer to this sun, and some
37:18are further away. And some have less
37:21warmth, some more. But when love is
37:25one-directional, it begins to take on
37:28distorted, ugly forms. Attachment or
37:31clinging arises, which ultimately leads
37:35to suffering. I'll tell you this, right
37:37? I mean, of course, it's clear that
37:39everything, if we talk about the
37:41reality in which you live, you
37:42understand that your life is not enough
37:44to understand it. And it probably won't
37:46be enough to transform yourself, but
37:49maybe it's already a good thing that
37:51you're at least, well, thinking about
37:54it. That's already a good thing.
37:56Sometimes I calm myself down. That's it
37:59. That is, maybe this is already, well,
38:02some kind of minor nusha, I don't know.

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