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Kidnapped at 14 & held captive for 9 months w/ Elizabeth Smart — Transcript

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0:00You were so many times. Was there ever
0:02just a point where you just like I'm
0:04just going to lay back and enjoy it?
0:06>> Elizabeth.
0:08>> Brian David Mitchell broke into their
0:09home and [music] kidnapped Elizabeth.
0:12>> What were the words that you heard that
0:13woke you up?
0:14>> I have a knife at your neck. Don't make
0:15a sound. Get up and come with me.
0:17>> Smart says [music] she was raped
0:18repeatedly each day during her ordeal.
0:21>> Was there ever a concern of pregnancy?
0:24>> Of course. I'm a very late bloomer. You
0:26started while you were getting. The man
0:28is Brian David Mitchell.
0:29>> Mitchell claims to hear the voice of
0:31God.
0:31>> Is it worth surviving for everyone to
0:33look at me differently? [music] Is it
0:35worth surviving if nobody is ever going
0:37to love me or want to be with me?
0:38>> How does the teaching in the church need
0:40to change?
0:41>> I really don't care what your beliefs
0:43are. You have to teach the other side.
0:45>> Did you forgive your captors?
0:46>> I think I probably have my own
0:48definition of forgiveness.
0:52>> Trigger warning. This episode contains
0:54detailed discussions and depictions of
0:55sexual assault and rape involving
0:57minors. We understand this material is
0:59deeply disturbing and can be triggering
1:00for survivors. Please prioritize your
1:02well-being. If you or someone you know
1:03has experienced sexual assault, support
1:05is available and healing is possible.
1:07You can reach the national sexual
1:09assault hotline at 800656 hope or
1:12connect online at rain.org. Reporting
1:14can save a life. Elizabeth, welcome to
1:16Unplanned.
1:17>> Thanks for being here.
1:18>> Thank you so much for being here. I feel
1:21like every parent's biggest irrational
1:23fear is that their child would be taken
1:26from the home in the middle of the night
1:28without them knowing and that became a
1:31reality for you and your family. Why do
1:34you choose to continue to share your
1:37story and what do you hope people gain
1:39from our conversation here today?
1:41>> Well, initially I when I was first
1:43rescued, I didn't want to talk about
1:45what had happened. I didn't want anyone
1:47to know anything that had happened and I
1:50just wanted it to stay in my past. I
1:53just wanted it to stay a secret. Um the
1:56trial
1:58took so long. I mean the better part of
2:01a decade before uh one of my captors was
2:04finally prosecuted.
2:06And um during that time like I was felt
2:09like I was being interrogated but I
2:11suppose interviewed would probably be
2:12the correct word by FBI, the prosecution
2:17um really intensely. And then I had to
2:22take the stand and I was on the stand
2:24for hours and hours. And um at that
2:28point I recognized that
2:31like anyone could go look up the court
2:33transcripts to find out what happened.
2:36And I remember just feeling like if my
2:40story is going to be out there, then I
2:43want to give it my perspective, not just
2:45have it be
2:47>> like bullet points or facts listed out.
2:50>> And I want there to be some kind of
2:52purpose to it. because
2:54>> yeah,
2:55>> from the time that I was rescued to the
2:57time that I took the stand and
2:59testified, um I did have the opportunity
3:02to meet with a lot of victims and I did
3:04hear a lot of their stories and it was a
3:06very common uh theme that I heard how
3:09they were too scared to share their
3:11stories or that they felt alone because
3:14nobody else was out there sharing their
3:16story and they felt a great sense of
3:17shame and embarrassment around what had
3:20happened to them. So, I just remember it
3:22kind of felt like a I don't want to say
3:24a perfect storm because I look back and
3:25I'm like there's no way any of that was
3:27perfect. But
3:28>> for me to share my story on a bigger
3:31scale to really step fully into
3:34advocacy, I feel like all of that played
3:38a part in getting me there.
3:40>> How do you tell your story to someone
3:42that hasn't heard it before? because
3:44obviously there's a lot of people that
3:45know know your story and know it very
3:47well. But yeah, how how do you explain
3:50that to someone who meets you for the
3:52first time and doesn't doesn't really
3:54know?
3:55>> Well, it's not just the first words out
3:56of my mouth. It's not like, "Oh, hi, I'm
3:58Elizabeth. I was kidnapped. Nice to meet
4:00you." Um, I was held captive for nine
4:02months. I mean, like, if I honestly I I
4:05want to say it's not part of my daily
4:07life.
4:09it is because I am in the field of
4:13advocacy. But I mean, if I just met
4:15someone for the first time, I probably
4:17wouldn't even bring it up. Like, I'd
4:20just let them get to know me for me. I
4:22mean, I feel like people find out one
4:24way or another. Or they're like, "What
4:26do you do for a living?" I'm like, "Oh,
4:27well, yeah, I have a nonprofit." Or,
4:30>> you know, I do public presentations or I
4:32speak and they're like, "Oh, really?
4:33Like, what's your nonprofit about?" Or,
4:35you know, like, "What do you do?" And
4:36then it's like, "Oh, well, I talk." And
4:38then they're like, "Oh, how'd you get
4:39into that?" And I'm like,
4:40>> "Well,
4:41>> there's a [laughter] whole story behind
4:43all this."
4:44>> Well, actually,
4:46>> yeah. I've heard it said before, and
4:48it's so true. Like, if someone were to
4:49ask me, "What did you do on January 16th
4:52of 2025?" I'd be like, I don't I I
4:56couldn't tell you. But there's certain
4:58days that are so pivotal in your life
5:00that you probably remember every detail.
5:03I'm curious,
5:05taking you back to when you were 14
5:06years old, like that day, what do you
5:09remember about that day and then going
5:11into that evening?
5:12>> I mean, honestly, like it was a normal
5:15day. There wasn't like anything really
5:19crazy or abnormal about it. It was just
5:21another normal day. Went to school, came
5:24home. I mean, I come from a big family,
5:28so I had a lot of brothers and my sister
5:30kind of running around. We had dinner as
5:32a family. I mean, just my parents
5:34gathered us together for our evening
5:36prayer and then sent us into bed. And it
5:40was just it was just another day. It was
5:41just another night.
5:42>> Mhm. And you were sharing a bed with
5:44your younger sister.
5:45>> Yes.
5:46>> And around what time were you woken up?
5:50Do you know? I know at one point in time
5:52I did actually know the exact minute
5:54because I had like a clock right next to
5:56me,
5:57>> but it's been so many years now that I
5:59feel like it was in between 2 and 3.
6:02>> It was very late at night or very early
6:05in the morning, however you look at it.
6:07>> And what were the words that you heard
6:09that woke you up? Uh, so I heard a man's
6:13voice and actually initially I didn't
6:14even respond at first because
6:18you don't plan on hearing a strange
6:21voice in your room in the middle of the
6:22night. I thought it must be part of a
6:24dream. Um, but the voice repeated the
6:27same words again saying, "I have a knife
6:30at your neck. Don't make a sound. Get up
6:32and come with me."
6:34>> Wow.
6:36I can't even imagine being in that
6:39position. Did a part of you even think
6:43to scream?
6:45>> No. I mean, there was a knife lying
6:48right on my neck.
6:49>> The first words out of his mouth besides
6:51telling me were telling me he had a
6:53knife was, "Don't make a sound." So, no,
6:57that thought did not even cross my mind
6:59that I should do that. I mean, my life
7:01felt
7:03like I could either stay quiet and live
7:07or I could say something and scream. It
7:11didn't really felt like there was that
7:12much of an option. And and also
7:14[sighs and gasps]
7:15you, at least I feel like I was taught a
7:18lot of safety education. I mean, you
7:20know, you've got fire drills, you've got
7:22earthquake drills, like it's stranger
7:24danger, the buddy system. Like
7:27I think there's probably more education
7:29in schools today, like active shooter
7:31education, but
7:33>> um I mean that wasn't in school when I
7:35was, but there was still lots of safety
7:37education going on back then,
7:39>> but none of it ever covered what you
7:42should do if you're woken up in the
7:43middle of the night with a stranger
7:45holding a knife to your neck. So, it
7:47just felt like there was no option.
7:49>> How did your brain start to protect you?
7:51I I I noticed you said something about
7:52how Yeah. your your brain kicks into
7:55protection mode and figures out a way
7:57forward. What what did your brain do in
8:00those in those first days, weeks, months
8:03to protect yourself?
8:04>> Initially, it just felt like
8:06devastation. Initially, I really didn't
8:08know if I could survive. I really didn't
8:10know if it was worth trying to survive.
8:13Eventually, I realized that maybe I'd be
8:16looked at differently by people who
8:18didn't know me, but ultimately my family
8:21would still love me and that would be
8:23worth surviving for. So, I needed to do
8:26just whatever I had to to survive.
8:29>> That's an incredibly dark thought. Yeah.
8:31Why Why did you believe a thought like
8:32that when when you were in captivity
8:34that maybe people weren't going to love
8:35you anymore?
8:36>> Because nobody was out there talking
8:38about rape. Nobody openly talked about
8:40sexual assault or sexual violence. And
8:43the only talk that even came remotely
8:45close to it, which still wasn't remotely
8:47close to it, was when I'd go to church
8:49and people would be like, "Oh, if you
8:51have sex before marriage, it's like
8:53you're a chewed- up piece of gum. If you
8:54have sex before marriage, sex before
8:56marriage is bad. Sex before marriage
8:58means you're dirty, means you're
8:59worthless, means you're not as worthy.
9:01They won't want to marry you." And first
9:04of all, I just I want to say like I
9:07don't care
9:09if people believe in abstinence. I don't
9:11care if people don't believe in
9:13abstinence. Like I really don't care
9:16what your beliefs are. I think it's
9:18fine. I just think no matter what, if
9:22you are going to teach abstinence, you
9:24have to be very clear. You have to teach
9:26the other side and be like this is this
9:29is abuse. This is this is not your
9:31fault. This is not the same thing as
9:34true intimacy. This is not the same
9:36thing as consent. This is what coercion
9:39is. This is it can still happen between
9:41a boyfriend and a girlfriend, between a
9:43husband and a wife. It's not just a
9:45stranger thing.
9:46>> Like I think you really need to spell it
9:48out because otherwise you'll be like me
9:52where you sit there and you think, is it
9:53worth surviving for everyone to look at
9:55me differently? Is it worth surviving if
9:58nobody is ever going to love me or want
10:00to be with me? I mean, I I know I'm not
10:04alone in having those thoughts. I've met
10:06too many people who have shared those
10:08same thoughts with me to know that I'm
10:10not alone.
10:11>> You talked about um in a YouTube video
10:14that you posted how there was a
10:16demonstration you had. I don't know
10:18where exactly this demonstration
10:19happened, but basically how you were
10:21given a piece of gum, you shoot up the
10:23piece of gum and then you were asked,
10:25"Okay, now would your friend want to
10:28chew up that piece of gum, too?" Or it
10:30was it was just that
10:30>> it was at church.
10:31>> Okay. At church. At church. And it just
10:34made me so sad hearing that because
10:36yeah, I just I just thought about all
10:38the young girls that are are taught that
10:40chewed- up piece of gum demonstration
10:43and then how that makes them feel if
10:45they are a victim of of assault of of
10:48you know, insert blank. Like it it just
10:51it just made me heartbroken. And I guess
10:53the question I wanted to ask is how how
10:56does the teaching in the church maybe
10:58need to change or teaching all around
11:00America and the world need to change for
11:02for girls when it comes to that topic?
11:06>> I mean it doesn't need to just change
11:07for girls. It needs to change for boys
11:09too because ultimately the only way we
11:11could ever fully stop sexual abuse from
11:13happening is for abusers to stop
11:15abusing. Um because I mean my
11:17foundation, we have whole programs
11:19trying to empower victims, trying to
11:21empower women to just be able to get
11:24away safely, to take up space, to be
11:27able to at least know they're strong
11:29enough that they they know that they can
11:31strike someone or they can kick someone
11:33or that they can do something to get
11:35away. Um but again like at the end of
11:38the day
11:41if someone is intent on
11:44whether it's you or someone else they
11:46will. And so the only way we can
11:48eliminate that is is to do better on all
11:51fronts to not just teach girls but also
11:54teach boys. And another tragedy is you
11:56know boys
11:58they are getting sexually abused not as
12:01much as girls but still at a very high
12:03level
12:04>> a very high level. And I'll never forget
12:07um back when I was single um I went on a
12:11date one time with a young man and at
12:14the end of the date he started asking me
12:16question like we were just chatting and
12:18then finally he was like I just have to
12:19ask you a question. You were so many
12:22times. Was there ever just a point where
12:24you just like like, okay, well, I can't
12:26stop this from happening, so I'm just
12:28going to lay back and enjoy it because,
12:31you know, for me, I just feel like if
12:33there is no way out of it, I'd probably
12:34just lay back and enjoy it. And I was so
12:39shocked that anyone would ever say that
12:41to me. First of all, I was just like,
12:43are you kidding me? But then also that
12:47just like that mentality that he had in
12:49that moment that is poison to any other
12:53young man who has ever been sexually
12:55abused because
12:56>> they look at themselves and think well
12:58I'm weak. I'm a man. I should be
13:00enjoying this. Yeah.
13:01>> Or like
13:02>> like I should look at this like I'm so
13:05awesome. I had this happen to me or I
13:06should have liked it but I I don't feel
13:08good inside. or I mean it's so harmful
13:13to young men, so harmful I mean harmful
13:15to anyone, harmful to everyone. So I
13:19think we have a lot to do. Um I mean I
13:22feel like just just an as an example
13:25this this is an issue that should be
13:27really approached from every angle
13:29should be approached in the home should
13:30be approached at school, community
13:32centers, churches, religions. It should
13:35be approached from all sides. Yeah. Um,
13:38so a lot of times when I'm when I go out
13:40and speak, I'll ask people, you know,
13:42what do you do if you catch on fire?
13:45What do you do?
13:46>> Stop, drop, and roll.
13:47>> Yeah. Did you even have to think about
13:48that answer? No. Just came out.
13:50>> Yeah. We were taught I was taught it
13:51from a young age.
13:52>> Yeah. Exactly. Um, when I go out and
13:55speak, I'll ask people, "How many of you
13:57have actually ever used stop, drop, and
13:59roll?"
14:00>> Wait a minute. Okay. Why is it how
14:03people are being and sexually abused so
14:05much more than people are catching on
14:06fire? Why do we teach kids to stop,
14:08drop, and roll if we don't teach them
14:09how to approach sexual assault?
14:11>> That's exactly what I'm saying. Um, like
14:15I will maybe have one or two hands go up
14:19in a room full of 600 people for stop,
14:21drop, and roll. Maybe one or two hands.
14:25But like the national average for people
14:28who experience sexual violence,
14:32it's about one in five women.
14:34>> Goodness. In Utah, it's one in three.
14:37>> Oh god.
14:38>> If you are um indigenous
14:42um African-American, if you are one of
14:44the minority populations, it's not if it
14:49happens to you. It's really when it
14:52happens to you and how many times
14:54>> is it like one out of two? Is it like
14:56what what are the stats there?
14:58>> I mean, it's it's
15:00>> over 50%.
15:01>> Yeah. I mean, I couldn't spit out exact
15:04numbers for every population, but I know
15:06if like you're a native uh or indigenous
15:09person, it's I mean, it's almost
15:12everyone.
15:12>> And why is it happening more in those
15:14communities than it is in other
15:16communities?
15:17>> I feel like I'm getting into like more
15:20difficult territory to talk about. And I
15:22feel like certainly there are people
15:24definitely more qualified to answer this
15:27um because there are some really
15:29incredible organizations
15:31um led by created by indigenous people
15:36themselves or um African-Americans
15:38themselves. Um so definitely look them
15:41up, support them. But my understanding
15:44is that there's a lot just different
15:46laws. If you are abused on a
15:48reservation,
15:49>> Mhm.
15:50>> then it's left to like the reservation
15:53police. But if that person leaves the
15:55reg reservation, then then it's kind of
15:58like, well, whose um jurisdiction does
16:02that fall under and how do I go after
16:04them? And there's just like a lot of
16:07you'd think it wouldn't matter. You
16:08think like you see abuse happening, it
16:10wouldn't matter if you're on this side
16:12of the street or that side of the
16:13street.
16:13>> Yeah.
16:14>> But it does. And then there's just
16:17they're not as visible as say someone
16:22like me. I mean, as sad and as terrible
16:24as it is, like you know, if I had
16:27different hair, if I had different skin
16:29color, would my case have gotten as much
16:31attention as it did? you know, if my
16:34family
16:36like didn't have the connections that
16:38they had, if if we were in a different,
16:42you know, economic situation, would my
16:45case have gotten the same
16:47>> publicity that it did? It's hard for me
16:50to believe that it would have
16:52>> um because I don't know that I've ever
16:54seen another case receive the same level
16:57of attention that mine did. And
16:59certainly not for any of those minority
17:02groups. Does that ever leave you with
17:04like a feeling of guilt?
17:06>> I mean, on one hand, like it does make
17:08me angry and upset when I think it's
17:12roughly about every 78 seconds a person
17:16is sexually abused and every nine
17:18minutes that person is a child. And so
17:21it makes me really upset because you you
17:24don't even really hear like the tiniest
17:27fraction of those cases. I know my case
17:31received so much, but at the same time,
17:34I also look back and I'm kind of like,
17:36if my case hadn't have received the
17:39attention that it did, there's a pretty
17:41good chance I wouldn't be here today.
17:44>> So,
17:45I'd say it's kind of like a catch 22.
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19:12We've had a lot of good conversation on
19:14like the topic of intimacy, sexual
19:18violence,
19:19consent, all these things like with
19:21children and now you are a mom yourself
19:23to three young kids. I'm curious when
19:26those conversations started with your
19:28own children and how they look different
19:31from how you were raised.
19:34So, one of the best pieces of parenting
19:36advice I was given was the right time to
19:39start talking about things is when your
19:41kids start asking questions. And I agree
19:44with that completely. But also, I
19:47recognize the fact that these are really
19:50big, heavy, scary topics that
19:53>> like, of course, you want to educate
19:56your kids. You want to keep them safe,
19:57but at the same time, how do you talk to
19:59them about it without scaring them? You
20:02don't want them to live in fear.
20:04>> Um, honestly, I think one of the easiest
20:07ways to begin is like when you're
20:09talking about body parts with your kids,
20:11like you're like, "Where are your eyes?"
20:13And they point to their eyes, "Where's
20:14your nose? Where's your mouth? Where's
20:15your elbow?" Um, and you know, they're
20:18just learning the different names of
20:19different body parts. Um, you know,
20:22teach them to say penis, teach them to
20:24say a vagina or a vulva. Um, and don't
20:30attach shame to it because for example,
20:34I mean, my parents just were like,
20:35"They're your privates. They're your
20:36privates. They're your privates." Like,
20:37they're your privates. Um, and that's
20:40all we really referred to them as. Then
20:43I was kidnapped. Everything happened. uh
20:46just I think it was the second day I was
20:48home. I was brought to the Children's
20:49Justice Center uh where I was heavily
20:53I'm gonna say interrogated by these two
20:56psychiatrists that my parents had been
20:59told if I had talked to them they could
21:00stand as proxy for me during the trial.
21:03>> Of course that didn't happen. But
21:05>> wait, why why didn't h why did that not
21:07happen?
21:07>> I mean there were just so many problems
21:09with my case. I mean my case it was in
21:11the state courts for um almost 5 years.
21:15If it had hit 5 years the statute of
21:17limitations would have been up and my
21:19captors would have been released. So um
21:22before the five years was up I was
21:24approached by the US attorney's office
21:26here in Utah and asked if I wanted to
21:28move it to federal courts if I wanted to
21:30try to press federal charges. And of
21:32course I did. I didn't want them out.
21:34>> Yeah.
21:34>> So uh then it was moved to the federal
21:36courts. But there was I don't even know
21:39the exact reasons why they couldn't why
21:42they didn't end up standing witness for
21:44me or standing proxy for me, but for
21:48whatever reason they didn't. But um it
21:51was it was a terrible experience for me.
21:54And I'm not saying these men were mean
21:56or that they weren't qualified, but um I
22:00first of all, I didn't want to go
22:01anywhere. I just got home and then my
22:03heads are like, "Okay, you have to go."
22:06And I didn't like I didn't like having
22:09my choices taken away from me because
22:11they'd all been taken away from me for
22:13nine months.
22:14>> I was brought to this place. Um I
22:17remember they opened a closet door and
22:18they're like, "Oh, here's a stuffed
22:20animal. Would you like to hold one?" And
22:21I remember just thinking, "Where were
22:23the stuffed animals while I was being
22:25chained up and there was a if I can live
22:28through that without a stuffed animal, I
22:30don't need one now." I mean, that felt
22:32quite condescending to me. I know that
22:34they were only trying to do their best,
22:36>> but I just was like, that is not going
22:37to help me.
22:38>> You don't know what I'm made of, sir.
22:40>> And uh
22:42>> and then I was brought into this room
22:43and there were these two men in there.
22:45Like I was scared to be around men. I
22:48didn't trust men. Um they were roughly
22:51the same age as my captor. So that made
22:54me feel uncomfortable. And then um they
22:58were both clearly religious
23:02um different religion than mine. But
23:04that also just made me feel
23:06uncomfortable because my capttors had
23:09justified everything they did to me
23:11through religion. So there was nothing
23:14that felt good about this situation just
23:16from the very get-go. And then as they
23:19try to find out what happened to me and
23:21as they asked questions, um, they got to
23:24a point where they're like, "So, tell me
23:25what happened." And I said, "Well, they
23:26hurt me." "Well, how'd they hurt you?"
23:27"Well, they molest me." "Well, how'd
23:28they molest you?" "Well, um, they they
23:31me and they're like, "Okay, well, can
23:34you tell do you know what is?" I was
23:35like, "Yes." And they're like, "Well,
23:37can you explain what is to us? Can you
23:39tell me what exactly he did?" I was
23:40like, "Well, he, you know, he pushed
23:42himself inside me." And they're like,
23:43"Well, you need to say the anatomically
23:45correct body parts." So, I had to get
23:47into such detail where I was saying he
23:49was forcefully pushing his penis into my
23:52vagina repeatedly. And having never even
23:55grown up feeling comfortable saying
23:57those words, that whole experience was
24:01terrible. So now as a parent, I look at
24:03my own kids and I'm like, heaven forbid
24:06anything ever happen to you, but if it
24:08does, I want the least of your worries
24:11to be like comfortable um comfort with
24:15using like body specific words. I want
24:17that to not even be a blip on your
24:19radar. Like I want to make this as
24:22>> least traumatizing for you as possible.
24:24And so there shouldn't be shame attached
24:25to body parts. Like how is a penis any
24:29different from a knee or an elbow or an
24:31eye? like it's just part of your body.
24:33>> And so I try my best to make sure my
24:38kids don't feel uncomfortable saying the
24:41correct body parts. Not that I just want
24:43them running around screaming penis all
24:45day or anything else. I mean, not that
24:47that's happened, but
24:49>> it happens quick.
24:51>> Yeah. I appreciate you saying that
24:53though because it's easy as a parent to
24:56be like, well, you know, that that
24:58happens to other people, but it's like
25:00not my kid, you know, or
25:02>> I'm too involved [clears throat] in my
25:03kids. I'm around my kids all the time.
25:05That won't happen. I won't let it
25:06happen.
25:06>> Exactly. I'm a good dad. I'm a present
25:08father. That's never going to happen. I
25:09don't They don't need to use the
25:10anatomically correct term,
25:12>> but
25:13>> or like, you know, stranger danger.
25:16Stranger danger. Don't talk to
25:17strangers. Like honestly, strangers are
25:19probably safer than the people you know.
25:21Most kidnappings, most abuse that takes
25:24place comes from people, you know.
25:26>> How is how that that's so upsetting to
25:29hear that? Like cuz when I hear about I
25:31hear about people molesting people like
25:34I just think of it as this like
25:35stranger, this horrible, you know, bad
25:38guy from a movie type character coming
25:40in and like doing something awful. But
25:42you're what you're saying is it's
25:44actually people's family or friends
25:45typically.
25:46>> Yeah. Yeah, it is very rare that it's a
25:49stranger. I want to say it's like 2% of
25:51the time it's a stranger. I mean, we
25:53certainly hear about the stranger ones a
25:55lot more than we hear about family, but
25:57family and like kind of that that close
26:00circle of of people who you trust, those
26:03are the biggest threats.
26:05>> I mean, it's why when a child is
26:07kidnapped, when a child disappears and
26:09law enforcement comes in, the first
26:10people they look at are the parents.
26:12>> And that's what they did with your dad.
26:14>> That's what they did with Yeah. with my
26:15parents. Yep.
26:17Did you ever think while you were in
26:18captivity that maybe your dad was going
26:20to get wrongfully convicted?
26:22>> Oh, never. Not for a second. And when I
26:25was rescued and I heard that he had come
26:28under under like incredible scrutiny, I
26:30was just like, what's wrong with you? My
26:31dad would never hurt me. My dad would
26:33never kidnap me. Like, you must not be
26:36very smart if you think that. But now,
26:38of course, knowing everything I know,
26:39I'm like, yeah, you know what? I
26:42understand why they did that. Not that
26:44it was like a pleasant experience for
26:46anyone in my family. I think it was all
26:47hell for everyone. But like I do
26:50understand why they did it. And you know
26:52when I speak to families who have had a
26:55child go missing, I'm like as as
26:58terrible as it is, as uncomfortable as
27:00it is, cooperate with law enforcement,
27:03like answer whatever question they have,
27:05do whatever you have to do to clear
27:07yourself so that your focus can stay on
27:09your child and finding your child and
27:11bringing your child home. I can't
27:13imagine the frustration that would be
27:15that would feel like even though like
27:16you're saying they're doing this in the
27:19best interest of the child like the most
27:22statistically common resolution but I
27:26can't imagine being in your parents
27:28position especially your dad's where
27:29they're they're look for my daughter
27:31it's not me. There's been a conversation
27:34of revictimization that's come up
27:36recently that I've heard. I'm curious if
27:39you deem your trial like that whole
27:42gearsl long process and everything that
27:45went into your case as well as it sounds
27:47like your experience at the child
27:49justice center. Would you consider that
27:51revictimization?
27:52>> I mean I felt like my experience at the
27:56children's justice center like that was
27:58a bad experience. I was not I don't look
28:00back on that and have anything positive
28:02to say about it. Um I do think things
28:04have come so far since then. There's so
28:07many more better practices now and
28:09people are just I'd say much more
28:12traumainformed, trauma aare. I want to
28:15say I don't think that would ever happen
28:17again. I think we've come that far. It's
28:20hard to speak in absolutes,
28:22>> but I believe that that would be the
28:24exception and not the norm these days. I
28:27do think we've made so much progress in
28:29in the field of of um forensic
28:33interviewing and how we treat at least
28:36at these specific children's justice
28:38centers, children advocacy centers um
28:41and how we interact with victims. I
28:43think they've come such a long way from
28:46when I went through it. I think
28:48everyone's going to have a little bit
28:49different answer as to what's
28:50traumatizing for them. And I guess for
28:54me, there's only been a couple times in
28:56all the years that I've ever spoken
28:59about what's happened to me that I felt
29:01truly uncomfortable. And it's never been
29:04on a podcast. It's never been on an
29:06interview. It's been when there's been
29:08incredibly deep digging. uh when one of
29:11the psychiatrists for the federal case
29:15had to get my side of the story and I
29:17mean he asked very difficult hard
29:20questions about very intimate details
29:23that that was hard for me and I didn't
29:25like talking about it and I didn't want
29:27to talk about it
29:28>> and um and then again when I was
29:31interviewed interrogated again for the
29:33trial uh by the FBI in preparation for
29:36the case it was not good it was
29:38miserable but also I recognized realiz
29:40that this needs to happen. Like I will
29:43this chapter is going to go on forever
29:46unless I do what I have to do to be done
29:49with it. And so I did. And I guess at
29:51the same time like maybe that's just the
29:53kind of person I am.
29:55>> Like let's no I don't want to take a
29:57break. I just want to get through it and
29:58I want to get it over with.
30:00>> Let's just keep going. Get what you need
30:02and be done. Hearing you talk about
30:04being basically interrogated by a
30:06psychiatrist or two psychiatrists for
30:08hours on end sounds horrible. I mean
30:10what is changing now to make the system
30:12better to have reform in in the system
30:16and then what would you like to see
30:18continue to change that doesn't exist
30:19today?
30:20>> So in many of these children's justice
30:22centers or children's advocacy centers
30:25um they have really streamlined the
30:29process. So, the day I was rescued, um,
30:32it was a little bit of a mess really. It
30:34was kind of all over the place. But, you
30:36know, I was taken from one police
30:38station to another police station. I was
30:40reunited with my family. I was taken
30:41away from my family to be questioned by
30:44the police um, separate from my family.
30:47And then, um, and then I was taken to
30:51the hospital and then and then I was
30:54finally brought home. and then you know
30:56it was a day a day or two later that I
30:58was taken to the children's justice
31:00center. So I mean overall I wasn't just
31:02interviewed one time whereas nowadays um
31:05things like many of the centers that
31:07I've toured um their process is much
31:10more streamlined. If a child comes in
31:13unfortunately
31:14uh I'd say most the time they've been
31:18abused by a man not always
31:20>> but much of the time. And so typically
31:24um talking to a female is going to feel
31:26safer than talking to a man. So
31:28>> of course
31:29>> um it's not always, but I would say much
31:32of the time it is a woman they're coming
31:33in to talk to. There's so many different
31:36things to take into account. I mean age,
31:39maturity level, do they have any special
31:42needs? These forensic interviewers, uh
31:45they're trained in all these different
31:47ways. If it's a very young child, they
31:49might not have all the words. So, it
31:50might be more kind of like drawing
31:52based. They will have maybe a two-way
31:55mirror so that the forensic interviewers
31:58in there and they have like an earpiece
31:59in and a police officer can stand on the
32:01other side and say like, "These are the
32:02things we need to get." And so the
32:04forensic interviewer can talk to the
32:07victim in like a compassionate way. help
32:10them to
32:12share whatever they need to share so
32:15that law enforcement has what they need
32:17to then prosecute or to hold
32:20>> hold the perpetrator
32:22>> uh until there's
32:23>> a case or something to move forward
32:25with. Um much of the time now, I'd say
32:28almost most the time in again just in my
32:31experience in the centers that I've
32:32toured, they will have a sane nurse on
32:35hand. So sexual assault nurse examiner
32:39who it will she'll be in the same
32:41building. So, it's not like police
32:43station, hospital, other location. It's
32:46all kind of like one one place where the
32:49nurse can, you know, check for um make
32:52sure that they're okay, make sure that
32:54they're safe and then um treat anything
32:57that needs to be treated and then
32:59collect any evidence that might need to
33:02be collected. But again, like in a very
33:05trauma informed way, tried to like for
33:08example, I think it's so helpful when um
33:12>> I mean just like even now as an adult
33:15when I go in to like see the doctor, the
33:16doctor's like, "Okay, I just this is
33:18what I'm going to do and I'm going to
33:19tell you when I'm going to do it and I
33:21want you to tell like that very clear
33:23communication I think makes a big
33:24difference and that's
33:26>> uh what these nurses do. I mean, and
33:28they're just some of the most
33:29compassionate and kind and empathetic
33:32people you will meet. Um, and then many
33:35of these organizations,
33:37um, they also have their therapists
33:40right there on site and many times there
33:42can be emergency housing right there on
33:44site or they have their safe houses or,
33:47you know, if you don't have clothes,
33:48they'll have clothes on hand, they'll
33:49have food on hand. Um, so it's almost I
33:52don't want to say one-stop shopping that
33:54makes it sound like
33:55>> fun,
33:55>> funny or trivial. Um, it's not, but I
33:58mean they really have made a big effort
34:00to make it as
34:03least traumatizing as possible.
34:07>> Who was someone that showed compassion
34:09to you that helped you get out of
34:13the horrible place you were in as a kid?
34:16I mean, yeah, maybe there was like a
34:18family member or a friend or someone
34:19that just like helped walk you through
34:21it and showed up for you. Um, I mean,
34:24when I was rescued, I kind of like what
34:27I was saying earlier, I didn't want to
34:28talk about what happened. And I I
34:32remember while I was held in captivity,
34:34I felt like the world was just moving on
34:36without me. And I was like, how can like
34:38how can the rest of my year be starting
34:40high school? They're starting high
34:41school without me. Like they're joining
34:44sports teams without me. They're they're
34:47doing all of these things without me.
34:50They're just moving on with their life.
34:51So when I got back, I was like, I never
34:52want to miss anything ever again. Like I
34:55want to do everything. Um, so
34:59I
35:01don't really feel like I was I was in a
35:04very excited place when I was Well, I
35:07was res I was just rescued. Like I was
35:09just brought back from my family. Like
35:11>> Yeah. And you just wanted to like put
35:12the past in the past and just forget
35:14about it.
35:15>> Yeah. I knew it had been taken from me
35:16already and I felt like it was being
35:18given back. like I didn't want to lose
35:20this second chance at life I felt like
35:22I'd been given.
35:24>> What was it your mom said to you?
35:25There's a powerful quote. I think you
35:27said it in a TED talk. Abby,
35:28>> I remember it from 12 years ago when I
35:31first listened to your TED talk. What
35:32you said your mom said like very soon
35:35after you were rescued.
35:36>> Yeah. She she had just said to me,
35:38Elizabeth, what these people have done
35:39to you is terrible. And there aren't
35:42words strong enough to describe how
35:44wicked and evil they are. They've stolen
35:46nine months of your life, but the best
35:47punishment you can give them is to be
35:49happy and not let them steal a single
35:51second more. I agree with that. But
35:54anyone listening to this, I wouldn't
35:57want them to think you just push your
35:58trauma
36:00>> under the rug. Yeah.
36:01>> Like I think basically what it means is
36:03don't give up on yourself. Like believe
36:05in happiness. You might not feel happy
36:06right now, but believe it exists.
36:08Believe that you can have it. Like keep
36:10keep reaching for it because you deserve
36:12it. Did you forgive your captors?
36:15>> So, I guess my short answer is yes. My
36:19long answer is I think I probably have
36:23my own definition of forgiveness.
36:25>> What is it?
36:26>> Um, I mean, I don't think forgiveness
36:28like I feel like when we think of
36:29forgiveness, it's easy to kind of think
36:31about it like at recess, like playground
36:34forgiveness where like someone pushes
36:36you down and you cry and you run into
36:38the teacher and the teacher makes that
36:39kid say sorry and then you say, "Okay."
36:42and then you go and be friends or like
36:44between siblings or something just like
36:46very simple. To me, I don't
36:49>> I don't think that's forgiveness. I
36:51think forgiveness is the greatest gift
36:54of self-love. It's loving yourself
36:57enough to put down the weight of your
37:01past. So, do I think is okay? No. I'll
37:06never be okay with it. Do I think
37:07kidnapping is okay? No. I'll never be
37:08okay with it. Do I think hurting a child
37:10is okay? No, I will never be okay with
37:13any of those things. But I also love
37:17myself enough that I don't want my
37:20history to hold me back. I don't want my
37:24past to stop me from living my life the
37:26way I want to. And so I feel like I love
37:30myself enough that I'm not going to let
37:32my captors consume my energy, my time,
37:37my my bandwidth. And so I never want to
37:42see them. I never want to see uh one of
37:45my captors out of prison.
37:47>> Yeah. I don't want to ever have anything
37:48to do with them,
37:50but they also don't take up any more
37:53space in my life.
37:54>> Wow.
37:55>> That's incredible. I mean, and you of
37:57all people have, in my opinion, every
38:00right to not forgive after hell that you
38:05went through. I think that's really
38:07powerful and I think there's a lot that
38:08I can learn from that that everyone
38:11listening can learn from that. I mean
38:12the horror of of your experience. I mean
38:15I I I still want to get like talk more
38:17about it but also the Netflix
38:19documentary is so good and your book is
38:21so good. So people can read your book.
38:22People can watch the documentary. I I
38:24did see though when I was looking at
38:26videos of I think it's so cool that you
38:28have a YouTube channel and you're and
38:29you're doing advocacy work on YouTube.
38:30That's so rad. That's so cool. Um, I did
38:34see that one of your captors is out of
38:35prison and that she was arrested because
38:38she went into a park and and that's a
38:42that's a no no for her because she lost
38:44that that right. I mean, how do you feel
38:48after going through what you went
38:49through? How do you feel about her being
38:52out of prison?
38:53>> It was a disappointment. Uh, I mean, I
38:56remember when she was least released, I
38:58remember the governor governor of Utah
39:00coming on and saying, "Oh, she's going
39:02to be on a very short leash, and if she
39:04puts a toe out of line, like she's she
39:06knows straight back where she's going."
39:07>> Mhm.
39:08>> I mean, she's a registered sex offender,
39:10so they're not allowed in uh within a
39:13certain distance of schools of
39:15elementary schools. They're not allowed
39:17in public parks. And she went to the
39:19park and she said God commanded her to
39:22feed the ducks. And uh
39:24>> seriously, that's actually what she
39:26said.
39:26>> That's as far as I understand. Yeah,
39:28that's what she said.
39:30>> Do you think that she's mentally ill? Do
39:32you think it's an act?
39:34>> I have mixed feelings. I have mixed
39:37thoughts because like on one hand, um
39:40she was before she was married to my
39:42other captor, she came from a previous
39:45marriage and she had six kids in her
39:47previous marriage. Yeah.
39:49>> How could a mother of six kids
39:51>> be okay with that? Exactly. Exactly. She
39:57not only sat there and watched me be
39:59abused, but she encouraged it. I think
40:02she wanted to feel special and I think
40:05she wanted to feel important
40:07and I think she found that feeling
40:11um from my other captor Brian Mitchell
40:16who would tell her things like well you
40:19know you're the mother of Zion and you
40:22know you are a queen and God has a
40:25throne on the right hand of him waiting
40:27for you and you've suffered so much and
40:31I think initially I think initially she
40:34would have just she would have known
40:36100% she would have been like no
40:37absolutely not like this is wrong.
40:40>> Um but I also think she it didn't just
40:43happen overnight. I mean it's like it's
40:45like cases of grooming. Um, when people
40:49hear about grooming, they don't actually
40:51realize it's a very slow process of
40:54little by little by little by little
40:57until one day you're looking at it or
40:58someone from the outside looking at is
41:00like, "This is not okay. This is not
41:01normal. How did it ever get to this
41:02point?" Well, it didn't go from zero to
41:04100 the same day. I mean, this is days
41:07and weeks and months, sometimes even
41:09years.
41:10>> And I feel like that's kind of what
41:12happened in this case, in her case. You
41:15know, it didn't just happen overnight.
41:17It was days and weeks and months of year
41:20and years of him kind of telling her
41:23these things so that she would be like,
41:25"Oh, you're right. You know what? I
41:27deserve a handmaiden. I deserve someone
41:29to take care of me. Yes, she can be wife
41:30number two and like she's going to do
41:33what I have to say."
41:36Was there manipulation on her? Yes. Was
41:40she crazy?
41:49She allowed herself to be manipulated.
41:52It became easier to believe the
41:54manipulation than the truth. It's always
41:56going to be easier to play the victim
41:58than the predator in hindsight.
42:01>> Yeah. Oh, yeah.
42:02>> Does she probably have some mental
42:03health issues? Yeah, she does. But do I
42:06think she's crazy? No.
42:09I think the fact that your abusers were
42:13a male and female
42:15like duo
42:18is unique in a way and also it baffles
42:21me that a woman and a mother
42:24specifically could be a part of it kind
42:25of like we touched on earlier. How do
42:27you think that added complexity to your
42:31healing process being cuz earlier we
42:34were talking about how in the child
42:36justice centers like a a young girl is
42:39usually being has been abused by a man
42:42so they would want to talk to a female.
42:44How do you think that added any type of
42:47nuance to your specific story?
42:49>> I think it just made me more wary all
42:52around. I don't know that that had like
42:54a massive effect on me. I mean, growing
42:57up, I was always close to my mom and I
42:58always felt safe to my mom uh when I got
43:01home.
43:03>> Um, but I think it just as I met new
43:06people, as I came into contact with new
43:08people, like if I got an uncomfortable
43:11feeling, then I just ended up paying
43:13closer attention to that person or
43:16watched a little closer, if I felt like
43:17they were crossing boundaries, I just
43:20kept my guard up a little bit more. Mhm.
43:22Uh, a part of your story that stands out
43:24to me probably one of the most is the
43:29instance that they highlighted in the
43:31documentary in which you were in a p a
43:32public library with Brian Mitchell and
43:38you had your face covered and you're in
43:41a public place and there's so many
43:44people around you while you're still
43:46kidnapped and a police officer comes up
43:50to you guys. Can you kind of describe
43:52that situation? Because I can't even
43:53imagine like being this close to freedom
43:57and then still having to walk away like
44:00like what was that feeling like that
44:01devastation or how what did it feel like
44:04to get so close to that freedom?
44:07>> I mean you're absolutely right. It was
44:09devastation. Uh I have been asked so
44:12many times over the years like oh why
44:14didn't you scream? Why didn't you say
44:15something? There are so many reasons why
44:18I didn't. And it's not because I didn't
44:20want to. And I also just have to say I
44:24feel like I know my case sounds so
44:27extreme and so out of the ordinary, but
44:30I think if you look at victims of
44:32domestic violence, you see the same
44:35thing. Well, you had a car, you had a
44:36phone, you had a credit card, or you
44:39debit card or whatever. It is never just
44:41as cleancut and as clear as just getting
44:44in your car and driving away or just for
44:47me in that moment, just opening my mouth
44:48and saying, "Yes, I'm Elizabeth Smart.
44:50Please, please rescue me." Um, you know,
44:53I was a child when I was kidnapped. I'd
44:55lived a very sheltered life up until
44:57that point. From the time that I was
44:58kidnapped to the time that we were in
45:00that library, that had already been
45:03months of abuse, that had already been
45:05months of thinking I was going to be
45:07rescued and not.
45:08>> And he'd had a lot of time to hurt me
45:11very, very badly to follow through with
45:14any threat that he felt like following
45:16through with. I mean, it got to a point
45:18where he really did feel like he was
45:20invincible. And prior to my well even up
45:24to that moment I didn't have interaction
45:26with law enforcement. Like I had no
45:28reason to and I didn't know anyone
45:31personally who was in law enforcement. I
45:33mean the closest interaction I ever had
45:35with law enforcement was the uh police
45:38officer who came to teach the DARE
45:40program in fifth grade.
45:41>> And you know that was still one officer
45:43to what 25 kids. So it wasn't like there
45:47was a personal connection there. And I
45:49didn't know this officer. I didn't know
45:50if he could actually protect me. I did
45:52know my captor. I absolutely knew he
45:55could hurt me.
45:56>> Um and so
45:59and it just felt like felt very
46:02dangerous to me. The whole situation
46:04felt dangerous. The whole situation felt
46:07scary, felt intimidating. Uh Wanda
46:10Barzee, she was sitting right next to
46:12me. She had just clamped her hand down
46:14on my leg. Um, so I mean I was
46:16physically being touched, which was like
46:20reminding me of everything that I'd
46:22already experienced and what they were
46:23capable of
46:25>> uh doing if I didn't do what they said.
46:26So it was I mean it was a very stressful
46:30situation
46:32>> because of course I wanted to be rescued
46:34but at the same time I wanted to stay
46:36alive and I wanted my family to stay
46:39alive and I felt a lot of responsibility
46:42not just for my own survival but for
46:43their survival cuz my capttors had said
46:46you know if you don't do what we want
46:48we'll go after your family. Well, they
46:50they even told you that they were going
46:51to kidnap your sister and your cousin.
46:55And wasn't there something about Brian
46:57saying that he wanted seven seven people
47:00in his camp?
47:01>> Yes. Yeah, he wanted seven young wives.
47:05I was just the first.
47:08>> Did Did he ever attempt to take more?
47:11>> So, he made um two attempts. One was my
47:14cousin and the other was a girl he
47:16actually never saw in person. and he
47:17just saw a picture of her. Um, it was
47:20while we were in California. He was
47:22looking for another girl to kidnap. He
47:25started going to churches to find that
47:27girl and you know when you go to
47:30churches, people are nice. They're
47:31friendly to you. They're like, "Oh, you
47:33want to learn more? Like, you know, why
47:34don't you come over to dinner tonight?"
47:36And that's exactly what happened to him.
47:37A couple invited him over to dinner. saw
47:40a picture of a young girl and turns out
47:42she was the daughter of the wife and her
47:45first husband and she split up her time
47:47between the two families. That's all he
47:49ever saw of her was just her picture.
47:51Then he like figured out he he left. He
47:53figured out like when she was going to
47:55be back with her mom and that's when he
47:59went after her and he fortunately was
48:01not successful. When you were in that
48:04library and the police officer was
48:06there,
48:07did any part of you think that if you
48:09would have tried to run or if you would
48:10have said, "Yes, I I am Elizabeth
48:12Smart." Was any part of you like seeing
48:15seeing how terrible Brian could be, did
48:17you think that he might even go as far
48:19to kill the police officer?
48:20>> Oh, that was absolutely a possibility in
48:22my mind.
48:24He'd successfully broken into my home.
48:26He'd held me hostage already for or not
48:29hostage, captive for months already.
48:32like he'd bring back missing flyers and
48:35newspaper articles about the search
48:36effort being put on for me. And he'd
48:39laugh about it and he'd be like, "Oh,
48:40all of Salt Lake. All the world's
48:42looking for you, but I have you, so no
48:43one will ever find you." I mean, I
48:45didn't. And he got away with it. Like,
48:48nobody did find me. Nobody was there to
48:50rescue me. Nobody was there to protect
48:51me.
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49:56>> You bring up this concept of appeasement
49:59in your book. I feel like that played a
50:02role had to maybe played a role also in
50:04your silence like in the library in your
50:07own words. Can you describe this concept
50:10of like appeasement when you're in a
50:11abusive situation? So, we have different
50:14trauma responses and most people have
50:17heard of fight or flight. And then
50:21some people have heard of freeze, but
50:24there's another one that's called
50:26appeasement. And from the outside in,
50:28people might look at it and be like,
50:29well, that's Stockholm syndrome. Well,
50:31no. Stockholm syndrome doesn't really
50:34exist. Um, this is appeasement and it's
50:38basically where your life is on the line
50:41and you're doing everything you can to
50:43stay alive. And so if that means from
50:45the outside looking in it looks like
50:47you're loving someone, it looks like
50:50you're complicit. It looks like you're
50:53you're part of it. You're just doing
50:56what you have to do to survive. For
50:58instance, when I was rescued, I remember
51:01recognizing that they could kill me at
51:02any point they wanted to. And I realized
51:06that if I did what they said, if I tried
51:11to get them to like me
51:13and they did like me, then maybe that
51:16would make them pause before they killed
51:18me. And if I could get them to like me
51:20enough, maybe they'd feel too bad about
51:23killing me.
51:25>> And so that was my thought process. So
51:27that meant doing whatever it was they
51:30wanted me to do. That meant saying or
51:32not saying whatever it was they wanted.
51:35It meant just playing along with them so
51:39that they wouldn't hurt me or kill me
51:41just to stay alive.
51:43>> How did you manipulate them or or you
51:45did in a way? Correct.
51:47>> I mean when it came time while we were
51:51in California and they were talking
51:53about places to go and I knew my best
51:56chance of survival was getting back to
51:58Utah. I mean, I feel like I tried to use
52:01the same tactics that they used on me,
52:04which was basically saying, "Oh, [sighs]
52:07I feel like God's telling me we need to
52:08go back to Utah, but like I am I am not
52:13worthy enough for him to speak to me,
52:14but you know, you're his prophet. You're
52:16his king. I know he'll tell you. Like,
52:19could you please ask him?" And that's
52:22how it was decided we'd go back to Utah.
52:24>> It's crazy to me that they used God to
52:27justify
52:28everything. Was that confusing for you
52:31as a kid to hear them like throw around
52:34God and, you know, just just speak in
52:37these religious terms? And yeah, it took
52:40me a while to figure out that their
52:42names also weren't Emanuel. And
52:45>> uh has has
52:48>> Hebol.
52:48>> Yeah.
52:49>> What where's Hebol from? Where does that
52:50come from?
52:51>> They're Bible names.
52:52>> Okay. Yeah.
52:53>> Is that Old Testament? Heal.
52:54>> Yeah.
52:55>> Okay.
52:56>> Crazy. And they just And was that all
52:58Brian's idea? Just to make them holier
53:01than thou to
53:02>> Yeah.
53:02>> to raise them up to this almost godlike
53:04standard.
53:05>> Yes, that's it. Exactly.
53:07>> What did the documentary not include
53:10that you wish it would have included?
53:11Because it's only 90 minutes long. It's
53:12it's it's fairly short.
53:13>> It is 90 minutes long. It, you know, it
53:16tells my family's side. It tells my
53:18side. So, I mean, you know, you hear
53:20what, 40 minutes of my side, maybe.
53:24>> Yeah.
53:24>> Like really a small part. and and you're
53:27trying to condense, you know, 9 months
53:30into, well, for for my story, like, you
53:33know, 40, 45, I don't know, whatever
53:36amount of time. You're trying to
53:38condense a lot into just a few minutes
53:40really. There's nine months of content.
53:42You could have made a documentary nine
53:44months long, but watching it for me,
53:46watching the final cut, I felt like
53:51it showed enough that you could imagine,
53:56gave you enough to imagine what it would
53:58have been like.
54:00>> Um, and I feel like it did a really good
54:03job on not being too graphic, but you
54:07still knew what happened. I feel like it
54:10was just very well done. And are there
54:13things I wish it included?
54:16I think it depends on the day.
54:18>> Oh, yeah. What's one of those things?
54:20>> Mostly I'd say no. I'm happy with with
54:22what it is. Um because again, you know,
54:27even when I go out and speak, even
54:28sitting here and chatting today, like
54:30there's no way we'll cover everything
54:32that happened. There's no way we can go
54:34through every day. I mean, I couldn't
54:37even tell you. August 20th, I remember
54:40doing I couldn't do that.
54:42>> There's just there's just a lot that
54:44happens, but I felt like enough was
54:45shown that you could understand what the
54:49rest of the nine months was like. And I
54:51don't know that there's any way to like
54:54portray
54:56just exactly what they were like. I
54:59mean, as wonderful as actors are in this
55:02world
55:04or as well as I can give a description,
55:08I'm just not sure that anything can
55:10truly compare to what they were actually
55:14like. an element of your captivity that
55:18I don't hear spoken about a lot. So
55:21maybe this
55:22this isn't exactly relevant, but I he
55:25forced you to drink beer and get drunk.
55:28Was that throughout the entire time
55:31essentially?
55:31>> I mean, it wasn't just beer, it was
55:33other kinds of alcohol. Like it wasn't
55:35like, oh, every day, but there were
55:38definitely times throughout that he'd
55:41like make a point to have me drink. Yes.
55:43As far as your relationship with alcohol
55:45today, does it was that growing up in a
55:48religious household, was that also
55:50specifically like heavy for you
55:53>> growing up? Like, you know, my parents
55:55didn't drink. I like never like that
55:59just was not something that was ever
56:00going to happen in my life. So, yeah,
56:03absolutely. Like when he'd bring alcohol
56:06back, I mean, it just felt like
56:09as bad as I felt about everything
56:11already, it just made me be like, "Well,
56:13great. I can't even like
56:16keep the least of my promises." Like,
56:21>> like it just made me feel
56:26>> like I remember just crying the first
56:28time he was having me drink. And I
56:31remember begging him to let me not
56:32drink. And it like it just felt
56:35devastating. Even though now looking
56:37back I
56:39I'm not laughing at myself, but also I
56:42think I'm looking back with like kinder
56:45eyes, like more compassion, like like if
56:48I could go back and tell myself
56:50something, I'd be like, "Elizabeth, this
56:51is you don't like you don't need to
56:54worry about this. This is no one's going
56:56to look at you and be like, "You're
56:58going to hell cuz you had a drink of
56:59wine while you were kidnapped and it was
57:01forced on you."
57:03>> Like, it's okay. Just do whatever you
57:05have to do to survive. If drinking this
57:07means you're going to survive, then it's
57:08the right decision to make.
57:11>> Not that it really was a decision
57:12anyway,
57:13>> right?
57:14>> Did you count every day you were in
57:16captivity?
57:18>> Um, initially I did. Um, and then it
57:21just it just became too hard to keep
57:24counting. It just made my family feel
57:26farther away. Made me feel more and more
57:30lost. And so I did eventually stop
57:32counting.
57:33>> How many days was it that you decided to
57:36just give up?
57:37>> Honestly, I can't remember. It was above
57:3950.
57:40>> Goodness.
57:41>> Your resolve to survive is so evident.
57:44And it seems like you made that decision
57:46very early on. And being 14 also on top
57:50of all this is just extremely it's just
57:55awe inspiring. And I remember you saying
57:57at one point that you had so determined
58:01that you were going to survive through
58:02this that you had even made up in your
58:04mind that if it meant that you had to
58:06outlive your captors
58:08like thinking you're you know that this
58:11could be I mean it would be decades
58:14>> that you had decided yes.
58:17>> Yeah.
58:17>> Still worth it.
58:18>> Yeah.
58:20>> That's that's I mean that honestly takes
58:22my breath away. I cannot imagine that.
58:24But also like I don't know as a
58:2714year-old
58:28does time mean the same as it does as an
58:32adult? I mean I think it was like a
58:34little bit different concept like I knew
58:35I'd get older. I knew like if I had to
58:39wait until they died like I knew I knew
58:43time would keep passing. I knew I'd be
58:45older.
58:47But also it just
58:51in my mind I was like I'm just going to
58:52do it. Now also looking back like did I
58:55really understand what that was? I mean
58:58like what what could have happened to me
58:59in all that time? Could I really have
59:01survived? I don't know.
59:03>> Was there ever a concern of pregnancy?
59:06>> Of course.
59:07>> Yeah.
59:08>> But um I'm a very late bloomer. I did
59:10not start my period until um December
59:14and I was rescued in March.
59:18And um
59:19>> you started while you were in captivity.
59:21I started while I was in captivity.
59:23Yeah. My period was not I mean it's
59:26never been normal to this day, but like
59:28back then it was like I was bleeding for
59:303 weeks, stop for a couple of days, and
59:33just start bleeding again. So it was
59:36very abnormal.
59:39>> Wow.
59:40>> Is do you think part of that is because
59:41of the trauma? I mean, I couldn't speak
59:45from like a scientific background,
59:48but there's always kind of been a part
59:50of me that's kind of wondered, well, if
59:53I hadn't have been like, if my body
59:55hadn't been treated the way it was,
59:57would my period have maybe even started
59:59even later?
1:00:00>> Yeah.
1:00:01>> I don't know.
1:00:03>> Did your dad just want to like kill this
1:00:05guy? Like I I like how how how did your
1:00:08dad not keep himself from like breaking
1:00:10into the prison and just like stabbing
1:00:12this dude? I don't know. Like I as just
1:00:14as a father, I can't imagine the horror
1:00:17of having this happen.
1:00:18>> I mean, he never he never talked to me
1:00:20about it. But I guess as I'm a parent
1:00:24now, I wouldn't I would want my children
1:00:27if something happened to my children, I
1:00:29would want them to feel like all of my
1:00:31focus was on them and that I was doing
1:00:34everything I could to make them feel
1:00:36safe and make sure that they felt taken
1:00:38care of and make sure that like
1:00:40>> I was there and in a good
1:00:42>> uh mind frame. Yeah.
1:00:44>> To be the best parent I could be for
1:00:46them. Um I'm sure my dad had thoughts.
1:00:49I'm sure my dad had feelings, but I
1:00:51never saw that side of him.
1:00:54>> How do you tell your story to your
1:00:56children?
1:00:57>> Um, I mean, it's I'd say it just grew
1:01:00with them. My oldest could tell you the
1:01:03most and my youngest could tell you the
1:01:04least, but they could all tell you that
1:01:07I was kidnapped. I would and I was hurt
1:01:09and then I was rescued.
1:01:11>> And how do you teach your kids about
1:01:13consent, about
1:01:16Yeah. How do you teach your kids about
1:01:17those topics? How do you talk to them in
1:01:19age appropriate ways?
1:01:20>> I mean, again, it does start out very
1:01:22simplistic like this is your body and
1:01:24nobody has the right to touch your body.
1:01:26You own this body. This is your body.
1:01:30And so, if you don't want to give a hug
1:01:32to someone, you don't have to give a hug
1:01:34to someone. Um, if you don't want to
1:01:36give a kiss to someone, you don't have
1:01:38to give a kiss to someone. Nobody has
1:01:40the right to touch you in a way that you
1:01:43don't want them to be touched. No one
1:01:45should see you naked unless you know
1:01:47it's me or my husband and we're helping
1:01:49you with something or we're at the
1:01:50doctor and I'm there with you. Um so we
1:01:54we start off very small like that. Um as
1:01:56like as all my kids are in elementary
1:01:59school now. I've told them um you know
1:02:01if anyone ever tries to touch you, if
1:02:03anyone ever tries to hurt you, you can
1:02:06do whatever you want to them. You want
1:02:08to punch them in the face, you go punch
1:02:09them in the face. You want to kick them
1:02:11in the crotch, like go kick them in the
1:02:12crotch. like and if you get in trouble
1:02:14with for it and like the principal calls
1:02:17me down, I'm going to tell her you did
1:02:18exactly what I told you to do because
1:02:21you are too special to be hurt.
1:02:23>> And nobody has the right to make you
1:02:26feel unsafe or hurt you. Um, and so we
1:02:29have those conversations regularly. Um,
1:02:33my kids have kind of gotten to the point
1:02:35where they're like, "Mom, can I have a
1:02:36sleepover? Mom, can I No,
1:02:38>> there are no sleepovers. I'm sorry.
1:02:40Like, I'm happy for you to go. It's not
1:02:43playdates anymore. It's hang out.
1:02:45>> Hang out.
1:02:46>> I'm happy for you to go hang out, but I
1:02:48will be picking you up. And if you want
1:02:49to hang out again tomorrow, we can plan
1:02:51that, but you're not spending the night.
1:02:53Thank you to Cash App for sponsoring
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1:04:22for full disclosures. What do you I I
1:04:25appreciate you explained the whole
1:04:27permission thing whether it's a hug or
1:04:29literally anything cuz I I'm a hugger
1:04:31and I literally thought back I was like
1:04:33oh gosh
1:04:33>> yeah I was like cra I hugged you.
1:04:35>> I literally hug everyone and then I was
1:04:36like I I when we met like an hour ago I
1:04:39gave you a hug and I'm like gosh dang it
1:04:40was I should have said it should have
1:04:42said permission to hug like I'm like
1:04:43what yeah talk to me about that. I mean,
1:04:46I think it's like perfect. Like, I have
1:04:50met so many people and like so many
1:04:52people do feel like they've followed my
1:04:54story so closely and they want to give
1:04:56me a hug and and that's okay. That's
1:04:58like for me that's fine. I think it is
1:05:00nice though just to be like, "Hey, do
1:05:02you mind if I give you a hug?" And then
1:05:04just give them the chance to say yes or
1:05:05no. I think that's great. And I think,
1:05:08you know, like I think it is nice to be
1:05:10hugged. Like I hope most people like
1:05:12hugs. I like
1:05:16some people
1:05:18just be like, "Hey, I'm a huggy type of
1:05:20person. Do you mind if I give you a
1:05:22hug?"
1:05:23>> Totally. That's a Thank you for
1:05:24explaining that. That's really good. Now
1:05:26that you're an adult, now that you're a
1:05:27mom, you're married. You have three
1:05:29three children.
1:05:30>> Yeah. Three.
1:05:31>> I'm guessing it's still probably hard
1:05:34sometimes to be just just around men
1:05:36because like that men are men are scary.
1:05:39like it it was a scary or am I wrong in
1:05:42saying that?
1:05:42>> Um I don't think just blanket statement
1:05:46men are scary. I don't I don't think
1:05:48that I think anyone can be scary. Um and
1:05:52I think it comes down to just like
1:05:54listening
1:05:56>> to your senses, listening to your gut
1:05:58like um and I think that's very
1:06:00important because many of us live so
1:06:04hard trying not to offend anyone.
1:06:08strangers, people we don't even know to
1:06:10the point that we don't listen to our
1:06:12instincts anymore. I mean, for example,
1:06:15like I I wish I could say I came up with
1:06:17this. I didn't, but I think it's
1:06:19brilliant. You would never see just like
1:06:21a gazelle willingly walk into an
1:06:23elevator, a closed steel box with a lion
1:06:26in it. But as people, whether you're in
1:06:31a hotel, a mall, an airport,
1:06:34>> like the elevator door opens and you can
1:06:36see someone kind of scary looking in
1:06:38there, but you don't you still get in.
1:06:41>> Yeah.
1:06:42>> Like you'll still just walk in and just
1:06:43be like, you know what? It's not right
1:06:45of me to judge that other person. They
1:06:47could be the nicest person in the world,
1:06:48so I'm just I'm just going to ignore my
1:06:50senses. I'm going to ignore my instincts
1:06:52and I'm going to get in there. And I
1:06:55think it's really important just to
1:06:56state like as much as I want to say,
1:06:58yeah, don't judge the person next to
1:07:00you. You don't know what they've been
1:07:01through. You don't know why they are the
1:07:02way they are. Also, you should not
1:07:08Your personal safety should take
1:07:11precedence over your fear of offending
1:07:14someone else.
1:07:15>> Crime Junkie says, "Be weird, be rude,
1:07:17stay alive."
1:07:18>> Do you listen to Crime Junkie?
1:07:19>> I was interviewed by them.
1:07:21>> No way. Okay,
1:07:23>> that's Abby Loves True Crime.
1:07:25>> I heard that also when it was released.
1:07:27That was years ago.
1:07:29>> It was. Yeah.
1:07:30>> Yeah. I really appreciate your
1:07:32vulnerability and honesty on your
1:07:34YouTube page. You had a conversation.
1:07:37You said um many people had asked you
1:07:40after um being rescued, well since
1:07:43getting married about, you know,
1:07:46intimacy in a marriage after being a
1:07:49victim of sexual violence and
1:07:52how people were curious about that and
1:07:54how that took you a back at first, but
1:07:56then you just honestly talked about how
1:07:59you navigated
1:08:01intimacy in a safe context after
1:08:05such a violent and unsafe circumstance.
1:08:09And I think that a lot of listeners can
1:08:12probably relate to that to some extent
1:08:14after like having being victims
1:08:16themselves. Can you talk a bit about how
1:08:18you navigate healthy intimacy after
1:08:20being a victim of sexual violence?
1:08:23>> Well, I mean, right from the very
1:08:24beginning, I could have said no to my
1:08:27husband at any point in time. I could
1:08:29have said no when he first asked me out
1:08:30on a date. I could have said no when he
1:08:32first tried to kiss me. I could have
1:08:33said no when he asked me to marry him.
1:08:36Um, I could have said no at any point in
1:08:38that road. Like, I never was scared of
1:08:42him. I never felt threatened by him. I
1:08:44always felt like he respected me. I
1:08:46always felt like he loved me for me. And
1:08:49so every step along the way, it was Yes.
1:08:53And um like even to this day, I've never
1:08:57felt
1:08:59in danger from him. I've never felt
1:09:03uh that I needed to worry about being
1:09:06vulnerable with him. Like I just like I
1:09:09I've said it before, but like from like
1:09:12the first time I walked off the plane in
1:09:15Scotland and he was waiting for me
1:09:16there, even though Scotland's a
1:09:18completely foreign country to me and is
1:09:20not my home, just like walking straight
1:09:23into his arms, felt like home to me. And
1:09:27uh that's just that's just how it's
1:09:28always been. And it's always been like
1:09:34consent. It's always been like if we
1:09:37have sex, it's because we both want to.
1:09:39It's not because one of us is forcing
1:09:41the other. It's because we both want to.
1:09:44Um, and I think really having the
1:09:48ability to say yes, the ability to say
1:09:50no has made all the difference for me.
1:09:52It's helped me recognize that, oh, you
1:09:54know what, like true intimacy is not the
1:09:57same thing as they are different things.
1:10:01>> That's good.
1:10:03your YouTube video about this very
1:10:05topic. You talked about using like your
1:10:08senses and it it was just really
1:10:10interesting like as a grounding
1:10:11technique.
1:10:12>> How like where where did you learn that?
1:10:15How to ground like that?
1:10:16>> I mean honestly like again I did not
1:10:20come up with that. That was from
1:10:22listening to therapists speak at
1:10:24conferences. That was listening to other
1:10:27people talk about their relationships.
1:10:29That was me learning from other people
1:10:32and then sharing the information that
1:10:33I've learned and honestly
1:10:35>> experimenting with.
1:10:37>> Isn't there like a certain technique
1:10:38though where you like think of three
1:10:40things or you name three things in the
1:10:42room? What what is the exercise?
1:10:44>> There is, but I couldn't tell you
1:10:46exactly what it is. I know it's been
1:10:47explained to me probably like 10 times.
1:10:50However,
1:10:52>> my retention, [laughter]
1:10:53>> okay,
1:10:55>> is not always the best. But I know there
1:10:58are different like methods to help you
1:11:00like disconnect from your past and
1:11:03reconnect to the present.
1:11:04>> Yeah.
1:11:05>> And I feel like if you are struggling
1:11:08like you should go to a counselor or
1:11:11like specifically a sex therapist and
1:11:14they can help you uh find the best
1:11:17technique for yourself.
1:11:18>> Is that something that you had to do or
1:11:20that you experienced is like going to
1:11:22someone like that?
1:11:23>> I did not. I think if I had been
1:11:26kidnapped and abused like and I was
1:11:30older and I was in my 20s and I was
1:11:32already sexually active and I came home
1:11:36and like immediately jumped into other
1:11:38relationships, I think that I would have
1:11:41needed that. I think that would have
1:11:43been very helpful. Um, but when I came
1:11:46back, I mean, that wasn't like I didn't
1:11:49come back to a boyfriend. I didn't come
1:11:51back to a relationship. I didn't come
1:11:53back to
1:11:54have sex. Like that was still years
1:11:57away.
1:11:58>> And correct me if I'm wrong, but you
1:12:00didn't go to therapy right away after
1:12:03everything, right? Like therapy took
1:12:06years or like maybe even a decade,
1:12:09right? How long did it take you to go
1:12:11from being rescued to then actually
1:12:14making it into therapy?
1:12:15>> When I went to therapy, it wasn't about
1:12:17my kidnapping. It was about my parents'
1:12:19divorce. You know, I've like told my
1:12:22story. I've told my story in private to
1:12:24specific people, but I never went
1:12:27through the process of therapy for what
1:12:30happened.
1:12:31>> That that's fascinating to me.
1:12:33>> I do. But for the record, like I think
1:12:36therapy is great.
1:12:37>> Yeah,
1:12:37>> I believe in therapy. Like if you feel
1:12:39it's right for you,
1:12:41>> like keep trying it till you find the
1:12:43right modality. Keep trying till you
1:12:45find the right therapist. If you don't
1:12:46feel like it's right for you, there's
1:12:48nothing wrong with with not going to it.
1:12:50like you find what works for you.
1:12:52>> And when you went to therapy to talk to
1:12:54a therapist about your parents divorce
1:12:56and how that affected you, did you talk
1:12:58about the horror of being kidnapped or
1:13:01no? Was that even not even on the table
1:13:03just because you'd already worked
1:13:04through it?
1:13:06>> I maybe mentioned it, but it was more it
1:13:08was it wasn't about it wasn't about
1:13:11that. It was just more like to give
1:13:14context or reference from what I thought
1:13:18to what was happening. And if this is
1:13:21too much of like too deep of a question,
1:13:22that's totally okay. We don't have to
1:13:24answer this. But was your parents'
1:13:26divorce more traumatic for you than the
1:13:30kidnapping?
1:13:31>> It was just different. It was just
1:13:33something that I I mean obviously I
1:13:35never dreamed I could be kidnapped but
1:13:37my parents being together that was like
1:13:39the foundation that I had built my life
1:13:41on. Yeah.
1:13:42>> Like something I had taken for granted
1:13:44that they had never split up that they
1:13:46would always be together.
1:13:48>> And all of a sudden it just felt like it
1:13:50broke our family apart.
1:13:52>> And so trying to figure out still figure
1:13:55out ways forward, you know, cuz life is
1:13:58always changing. It's it's hard. It's
1:14:01just different. How old were you when
1:14:03that happened and you ended up going to
1:14:04therapy? Oh.
1:14:05>> Oh, my parents divorced. Uh, my youngest
1:14:08was like a month old and so I guess
1:14:12seven years ago.
1:14:14>> Wow.
1:14:14>> And being postpartum that [laughter]
1:14:17that would be a lot. One month out from
1:14:20your first
1:14:21>> Yeah,
1:14:21>> that's a crazy time of life to have
1:14:23something so unoring as like a your
1:14:26parents had been married your whole life
1:14:28for something like that to happen. I can
1:14:29imagine. I feel like we hear a lot about
1:14:32like you're so great about sharing your
1:14:34story when you were 14 and 15 and now we
1:14:36see you now and for years now being such
1:14:39a profound advocate and so great at
1:14:43sharing your story. I think there's a
1:14:45part in the middle that I'm curious
1:14:48about as far as like you said you were
1:14:51so eager to get back to do all the
1:14:52things that you had missed out on. Like
1:14:54I'm curious like how did you navigate
1:14:56peer relationships and maybe
1:14:59curious questions from your peers that
1:15:01are just trying they don't necessarily
1:15:03know how to ask adults don't know how to
1:15:05ask appropriate questions at times to
1:15:06victims like how did you navigate those
1:15:09>> maybe inappropriate questions from other
1:15:11teenagers? I don't know for sure, but I
1:15:13think probably
1:15:15um parents andor teachers probably said
1:15:19don't ask her any questions about what
1:15:22happened because most most students
1:15:24didn't. I mean, every now and then
1:15:27someone would. Um, and typically that
1:15:30was after they'd gotten to know me a
1:15:32little bit better, but most most didn't.
1:15:36Most
1:15:36>> Did you like that that they didn't ask?
1:15:38>> Uh, I mean on one hand, yeah. Yeah, I
1:15:41did like it because I I didn't just want
1:15:43to be known as the girl that was
1:15:44kidnapped.
1:15:45>> Yeah.
1:15:46>> Um on the other hand, I think that
1:15:48sometimes maybe it kept people at arms
1:15:50length
1:15:51>> a little bit more than
1:15:53>> maybe they would have been otherwise.
1:15:55>> But there's something to avoid here.
1:15:57>> Yeah.
1:15:57>> Did you find it hard to like did you
1:16:00just go right back to school?
1:16:02>> I mean, I would have gone back the next
1:16:03day, but my parents were like, "No." So,
1:16:06um I did like
1:16:10school packets to like do the classes
1:16:13that were mandatory.
1:16:15Um and then I started school in the
1:16:17fall.
1:16:18>> Okay.
1:16:19>> Mhm.
1:16:20>> Coming back like after having not spoken
1:16:23to your parents in 9 months, you had
1:16:26nine months worth of stories. How did
1:16:28your parents go about asking you
1:16:31questions about what like how did they
1:16:33navigate getting filled in on this major
1:16:36gap they now had in your life?
1:16:38>> Uh they didn't we didn't
1:16:40>> I mean I was as we kind of chatted about
1:16:44before I was interviewed by the two
1:16:46psychiatrists and then I know they went
1:16:48and talked to my parents. I don't know
1:16:50how detailed they told them what they
1:16:53told them, but I know that they he told
1:16:56them enough.
1:16:58>> Okay.
1:16:58>> But we didn't like I didn't want to talk
1:17:00about it and so my parents were just
1:17:02like, "We're here.
1:17:03>> If you ever want to talk about it, like
1:17:05we're here for you.
1:17:07>> Um if you don't want to talk about it,
1:17:08that's okay, too."
1:17:09>> Do you think that's the best approach?
1:17:11>> I mean, that was for me.
1:17:12>> Yeah. your foundation is doing all kinds
1:17:14of really awesome work and um things
1:17:17from having a platform for victims to
1:17:19share their stories, self-defense
1:17:21classes, which I find like particularly
1:17:25really like what a great resource.
1:17:27>> Yeah.
1:17:27>> What's the best way people can support
1:17:29the work that you're doing?
1:17:30>> I'd say of course follow us on social
1:17:32media. Um check out our website. Um we
1:17:37have our yearly fundraiser coming up in
1:17:40May.
1:17:40>> Amazing. I guess I don't know when this
1:17:42is going to air.
1:17:43>> Soon.
1:17:44Perfect timing.
1:17:45>> Donate to the fundraiser.
1:17:47>> Yeah. So, our fundraiser is May 13th.
1:17:49It's a garden party. My team is amazing.
1:17:52They're going to do like a great job.
1:17:53They always I always feel like so, I
1:17:56guess, humbled by them cuz they do so
1:17:58much and they're just amazing women. I
1:18:00feel so lucky to have them um be on my
1:18:03team and working as hard as they do.
1:18:05Like, it's such a important cause. So,
1:18:09um, definitely come check out our
1:18:11fundraiser. Again, that's May 13th. Just
1:18:14follow us on our social medias. I feel
1:18:17like we try to Instagram,
1:18:19>> Instagram, Instagram.
1:18:21>> I'd focus mainly on Instagram, but
1:18:24>> we are on Facebook as well. And then we
1:18:26have our website. But I'd also encourage
1:18:29you just to like get educated
1:18:31independently
1:18:32>> and like hopefully you know your child
1:18:34better than anyone else. So you will
1:18:36know the best way to talk to them, what
1:18:38they're ready for, cuz everyone has a
1:18:40different maturity level
1:18:41>> and you know how much your child can
1:18:43handle. But don't let these
1:18:45conversations just happen once and never
1:18:47revisit them. Make them a regular part
1:18:50um of
1:18:52>> of your life. I think communication is
1:18:55probably one of the most important
1:18:57things you can have as a parent, as
1:19:00someone trying to change, someone trying
1:19:02to teach. Um, make sure that your child
1:19:05feels like they can always tell you,
1:19:06that they're not going to be scared to
1:19:08tell you. Um, and I guess the number one
1:19:11thing that I think that is the absolute
1:19:14most important thing any parent can
1:19:16teach their child
1:19:18>> is to let them know that they are loved
1:19:21unconditionally.
1:19:23>> That's great. Beautiful.
1:19:24>> Perfect note to end on.
1:19:25>> And also check out your book, too. So, I
1:19:27feel like it it can reach anyone
1:19:29survivors of any kind and anyone that
1:19:31just
1:19:32>> is looking going through a hard time
1:19:34finding resilience and so much of your
1:19:36story has impacted me for years. So,
1:19:38it's very cool to have this conversation
1:19:40with you and I'm really glad we also got
1:19:41to share it with all of the listeners
1:19:43here.
1:19:43>> I just feel so inspired. I mean, I think
1:19:45everyone at some point goes through hard
1:19:47things in their life, and to hear your
1:19:49story and through the horror and trauma
1:19:51that you've been through and to see you
1:19:52come out on the other side as a as a
1:19:55victor and and stronger and all this
1:19:57post-traumatic growth, which is just
1:19:59incredible. I think it's just it's in
1:20:01it's it's an inspiration for everybody.
1:20:02So, thank you so much for doing what you
1:20:03do.
1:20:04>> Thank you. Thank you for having me. Of
1:20:05course.

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