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Kevin Sullivan | How to make a sub 4 miler — Transcript

by Dr. Bill Evans · 15,481 words · 2,391 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

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0:00Hello and welcome to the Endurance Lab
0:01Podcast. My name is Dr. Bill Evans,
0:02professor of Exercise Science, and this
0:04podcast covers the physiology of some of
0:06the best athletes on the planet, as well
0:08as talking with their coaches and sports
0:10scientists. And on today's podcast, I am
0:12joined by both a fantastic coach and
0:14fantastic runner, and that is coach
0:16Kevin Sullivan, who holds the Canadian
0:18record in both the 1500 and the mile.
0:21He's run PRs of 147 in the 800, 217 in
0:24the 1K, 331 in the 1500, 350 in the
0:27mile, and then his 5K was his lowest
0:291319, and he corrected me that his 3K
0:32indoor PR was 7 minutes and 40 seconds.
0:34He has coached two national champions
0:36since being at Michigan, where he's been
0:38the head coach since 2014, and I would
0:40argue is one of the best developmental
0:42coaches in the NCAA, particularly for
0:45the middle distance events.
0:46Welcome to the podcast, coach Sullivan.
0:48How did I do?
0:49>> Yeah, perfect. Thanks, Bill. Appreciate
0:51it.
0:51>> Coach Sullivan, so first off, thank you
0:53for coming on. I know you're busy.
0:54You've obviously got cross country
0:57coming up here,
0:58the conference meets and all that stuff.
1:00So I really appreciate you taking time
1:01to come on. I've been trying to lock you
1:02down on the podcast for a while, and you
1:05said it yourself, and this is the first
1:06question I want to ask you,
1:08you seem to be pretty content flying
1:11under the radar and just letting your
1:13athletes do the talking for you. Can you
1:15talk a little bit about your
1:18approach to, I guess, putting yourself
1:20out there or promoting yourself even
1:23though you've had such a
1:25such high-level success both in coaching
1:27and in running your your own running
1:29career?
1:30>> Yeah, no, and I know we we were talking
1:31about this a little bit offline of just
1:33like I've never been a big
1:34self-promoter. Like as a athlete, I
1:37would I mean, I probably would have I
1:38would have failed miserably in this NIL
1:40era of like self-promotion,
1:42but
1:44I was very much just raised on like let
1:45your let your results do the talking,
1:47and it didn't matter what sport. It was
1:49like, you know, I played team sports
1:50growing up initially when I was really
1:52young and then moved into track, and
1:55I don't know, it just something that my
1:56you know, my my parents always were
1:58really like discussed is maybe not the
2:00right word, but really like disappointed
2:02in like cockiness and like just outward
2:05like.
2:06So so you know it's like
2:08you know there be there be times
2:10obviously like you have these like
2:12emotional moments where
2:14um you know you just can't help but like
2:17you know show
2:19you know the pride in your performance,
2:20but I was yeah it was just it was just
2:22never it was just something that was
2:24never really instilled in me. It was
2:25just like that it was instilled me to be
2:26like
2:27you know be humble, be gracious in
2:30defeat um and you know that kind of
2:33always that kind of always stuck with
2:34me. Um you know that doesn't mean I
2:36don't get excited. It doesn't mean I
2:37haven't had my moments where I'm like
2:39I've looked back and be like oh shoot I
2:40wish I
2:42I wish I had quite been that emotional,
2:44but um you know it it is it is what it
2:47is. So yeah my my coaching staff tells
2:49me I need to promote myself more um
2:51especially when we're recruiting, but
2:53again I'm like
2:54you could find you can find the results
2:56you know if you're if you're a you know
2:58if you're a high school kid and you're
2:59looking at Michigan it's like you can
3:00look at what we've done. You can find
3:02that information. You can
3:04you can see my background. It's on my
3:05bio like you know it's part of it's like
3:08hey we want we want athletes that want
3:10to be at Michigan because they
3:12they have done their research and they
3:13feel like this can be a good fit for
3:15them and it's not just me trying to sell
3:16them.
3:17And so I think there's some value in
3:19that too like you know when you're a
3:20high school athlete like
3:22make sure you know what you're getting
3:23into like don't just
3:25don't just look at the flashiest program
3:27like know a little bit about it before
3:28you
3:29get on the phone with somebody or you
3:31fire off the email. You know I think
3:32there's some value in it.
3:34>> Mhm.
3:35So what are your recruiting standards?
3:37>> Like the actual actual marks like the
3:39actual times that we're looking for?
3:41Yeah I mean it's I mean it's shifting
3:43every year. I mean it's like the
3:45conference has gotten
3:46the conference has gotten a whole lot
3:48harder in the last uh
3:50the last two or three years. Um so our
3:52standards um our standards are are
3:55increasing like if we're looking at kids
3:57that are want significant
4:00significant dollars in scholarship then
4:03probably looking at
4:04you know, at least sub 150
4:07404 or faster.
4:11Something in the 840s for 3200. Those
4:14are good Those are good starting points
4:15for like really really high scholarship.
4:18Um, you know, walk-on walk-on spots are
4:20are becoming a real big premium. So, you
4:23know, it's like
4:24you got to be you know, pretty much
4:27under
4:28you know, under 412, under 410
4:31under 152
4:33and probably under you know, at least at
4:36least in the 90s. Um, and that's to have
4:38a conversation about a roster spot.
4:40That's not a That's not a guarantee.
4:41That's to have a conversation about the
4:43roster spot. Um, especially now that
4:45we're in this day of like
4:47we've got hard caps on rosters now and
4:49we're a
4:50you know, we are a complete program.
4:51We're not just a distance program. So,
4:53we got sprinters, jumpers, throwers,
4:54multi-eventers, and our distance group.
4:56So, um, yeah, uh, the the roster spot is
5:00becoming
5:01you know, in some cases for some for
5:03some student athletes, um, as valuable
5:06as the scholarship.
5:07>> Mhm. Mhm. So, to that point, when you
5:11have an athlete who comes in running,
5:12let's say 409, 410
5:15and
5:16they're like, hey, I've got the time
5:17standard, I've got the bare minimum, and
5:19I you know, I want to
5:20give a chance of walking on. What are
5:22you looking for in that first
5:23conversation that kind of says, hey,
5:25this might be someone that that I'd want
5:27to that I'd want to work with?
5:29>> Yeah, it it's maybe not so much the
5:30first conversation that we're looking
5:32for something, but we're going to really
5:33start doing our background work of you
5:35know, we want to we want to see like we
5:37want to actually see this athlete in
5:39action. So, whether that's like we're
5:40physically at a at a competition or you
5:42know, we'll scour and try to find
5:44whatever video we can. Um, I want to see
5:46how athletes how they how they move
5:49how they compete in high-level
5:50competition. What what do you do in
5:52high-pressure situations? Because
5:53there's like
5:55there's a lot of athletes out there that
5:56have really good times, but it's like do
5:58you thrive in a championship environment
6:01or do you crumble under that pressure?
6:03Um, and we see it a lot. We I see like,
6:06you know, perfectly set up race like
6:07just getting in the line and go and hey,
6:09I can knock out a 408-409
6:12but I go to the state meet and all a
6:14sudden it's a little tactical. There's
6:15there's a few guys around me and all of
6:17a sudden like I should be a guy that's
6:18in the top two or three and instead of
6:20like ninth or tenth.
6:21And and if that happens consistently
6:24then that puts some red flags up for us.
6:25So it's
6:26you know, it's like what's the total
6:28package there from an from an athlete?
6:29It's not the the time gets you time gets
6:32you the phone call or the email response
6:34or or whatever. I mean we try to respond
6:36to everybody but it'll get it might get
6:38you on the phone.
6:40Um but how are you as a as a competitor?
6:43How are you what do you look like as an
6:44athlete?
6:45Um what's your training background then
6:47to this point? Like is there is there
6:49upward trajectory that we can that we
6:52can look at?
6:53Um and
6:55uh
6:56and then we got a whole academic side on
6:57top of that. So do you fit the academic
6:59profile that we're that we're looking
7:01for? Um so
7:02all of that's part of that conversation.
7:05>> Yeah, Michigan is not it's not an
7:07academic program for the week I would
7:09say to say the least. It is very strong
7:11school academically obviously. So I want
7:13to come back. You mentioned that you
7:14were kind of raised with this mentality
7:16of humility and let the times do the
7:18talking for itself and and whatever
7:20whatever.
7:21Um how do you instill that culture in
7:24your team or is it something where
7:26you're kind of you've mentioned there a
7:27little more hands off where you're kind
7:29of like hey, you know what? You guys be
7:31you, I'll be me and let's just let's
7:33just perform.
7:34>> Yeah, it's a little bit of both, right?
7:36Like I think you know, it's important
7:38that you have to let your athletes be
7:40their own individual selves, right? Like
7:43like there's not going to be another
7:45Kevin Sullivan, right? Like the exact
7:47version of of me. And there's going to
7:49be
7:49>> Your son looks your son [clears throat]
7:51looks a lot he might be. I don't know.
7:52He looks like a mini version of you.
7:54>> some he's got a few years to go before
7:56uh before he
7:58we figure out whether he actually has
7:59the chops to to be a a runner or not.
8:02>> real Kevin Sullivan?
8:03>> Yeah, yeah, exactly.
8:05Um you know, but you know, each
8:07athlete's a little bit different on what
8:09what motivates them, um, what really
8:12allows them to kind of unlock their you
8:15know, their competitive nature. And you
8:17look across our team and we have we have
8:19all different types of personalities on
8:20our team.
8:22Uh, you you know, we have you know, some
8:23that are very outwardly confident. Like
8:26Trent McFarland is very outwardly
8:27confident, right? Like it almost cost us
8:29a Penn Relays wheel,
8:31uh,
8:31you know, because and we and we can joke
8:33about it now, but it you know, in the
8:35moment
8:37that was just like the
8:38you know, holy ass moment like you know,
8:40when you know, we realized like, hey,
8:43this
8:44this is something that you know, we
8:45might not be able to take this wheel
8:46home now.
8:48Um, and you know, I think it was a wake
8:50up call for you know, for everybody of
8:52like, hey, there's a
8:53you know, and even my conversation with
8:54some of the officials afterwards was
8:57you know, listen, I want my athletes to
8:58be I want them to be able to be be in
9:01the moment and be emotional in the
9:02moment, right? We don't want to we don't
9:04want to go over the line. And some of my
9:05question in that in that situation was
9:07like, what's the line?
9:09Right? Like what's
9:11you know, is the the was the line you
9:14know, okay, I pointed back at my
9:15competitor and that was the line.
9:17But I'm also like, how is that different
9:18than Simeon Birnbaum coming off across
9:20the line and slamming the slamming the
9:21phone down in in the DMR?
9:24Is it DMR the the DMR the day before,
9:26right? So it's like what's what's the
9:28line? What's the differentiation? Why is
9:30it why was it okay for one program to
9:33you know,
9:34again, what some people some people
9:36consider that taunting, some people
9:38consider what Trent did taunting. You
9:40know, neither one was probably okay, but
9:42in the in the moment like how do you
9:44control that emotion? And
9:46you know,
9:47you know, at the end of the day, I think
9:48the call was right
9:50to not disqualify us.
9:52It's like I can look back and be like,
9:54okay, in a
9:55in a football
9:57game or a basketball game, you get a
9:59you know, you get a you get a penalty in
10:01a football game with a whole team the
10:02whole team doesn't lose because of that.
10:04And they also they may be you know,
10:05there's there's some sort of penalty
10:07against that the team in the moment, but
10:09it's not you lose. Or you know, an
10:11athlete get a baseball player gets a
10:12flagrant foul and
10:14you know, they get they get knocked out
10:15for the game or the other team gets a
10:17few free throws, but you don't
10:19disqualify the entire team in that
10:20moment. So
10:22again, talking about semantics here. But
10:23back to the main the main point of the
10:25question is like, you know, Trent
10:26obviously has very outwardly confident
10:29personality. I have other athletes that
10:31are are much, you know, maybe more
10:33aligned with where I was growing up
10:35where it's like, hey, they come across
10:37the line and shake the competitor's hand
10:39and and go on to the to the next race.
10:42Um, one's not necessarily more right
10:44than the other. It's like I was
10:47brought up a certain way to
10:49that, hey, this is the way I'm going to
10:51I'm going to behave or react in in
10:54victory or defeat and other people are
10:57you know, they
10:59see different ways and you see that
11:00across all sports. So
11:02again, the to answer the questions, I
11:03want my athletes to to be themselves
11:06because I think that's what ultimately
11:07drives drives them. Now, if we end up in
11:10a situation where it does start to cost
11:12us points or championships or or wins,
11:16then, you know, we have start having
11:18maybe harder conversations. And so like
11:20we go back to Penn Relays and for the
11:21whole team,
11:23that was a learning moment for us where
11:25it's like, hey, there is a line. There
11:27are officials that are going to call
11:28this, right? And where you may not think
11:31it's over the line in the in the moment,
11:33somebody else does. And so we've got to
11:35be able to like differentiate like if
11:37we're in that gray area, then we're
11:40going to err on the side of like
11:42of
11:43being kind of less enthusiastic in the
11:46way we celebrate.
11:48Um,
11:49>> Yeah.
11:49>> But again, it's a it's a learning
11:50moment, right? And you hope everybody
11:53grows and gets better from it and and um
11:55you learn from your mistakes, you learn
11:56what's what's tolerable and what's not
11:58and
11:59like with anything, you go up to the
12:00line and you try not to cross over it.
12:02>> Yeah, my mom I I used that argument a
12:04lot as a kid. It didn't work well for
12:06me. But I would say though, and I'm glad
12:08you brought it up. And that wasn't
12:10necessarily what I was hitting on,
12:11although I was going to ask about that
12:13clearly there was a lot of people that
12:14were like, oh, this that and the other
12:16thing. And I'm like, you don't
12:17I'm thinking it from a physiological
12:18perspective. I'm like, do you realize
12:20how much epinephrine is flowing through
12:21your veins at the end of a mile? Like,
12:23irrespective of anything going on
12:26cognitively, that is going to influence
12:28how you behave. It it's going to
12:30influence how you behave irrespective of
12:32how you were raised because you just
12:33have all this stress hormone flooding
12:35into your system.
12:36And you know, what I often think about
12:38is compared to team sports is that
12:40in a team sport you can set the tone of
12:42the game, right? If you have a
12:44basketball game or a football game that
12:45gets chippy and they start taunting and
12:47getting whatever, like things can get
12:49like out of hand. People can get like
12:51injured because now you're starting to
12:52head hunt.
12:53And you know, it's it's that's like a
12:55very different situation. Like, we're
12:57talking about track and field. Like,
12:59what's going to happen? Are are they
13:00going to like push each other in the
13:014x1? Like, surely not, right? And so,
13:04you know, I tend to have more of a view
13:06of it because I I like Marco Langan a
13:07lot and obviously he's been known for
13:09his antics.
13:10Um, but I think it's good for the sport.
13:12Like, our sport can be very boring. When
13:14they're cutting off of the 10K during
13:17the Olympics because they want to show a
13:18commercial, a deodorant commercial, it
13:20begs the question like what would keep
13:22them, you know, keeping that up? And I'm
13:25not saying that people barking at each
13:26other would or not, but but I think it
13:28does make it more compelling and it
13:30makes it interesting. Like, it gives it
13:31a story because now you're going to
13:32watch Nationals and you're like, oh, I
13:33want to know how Michigan how's Trent
13:35going to race Simeon or you know, it's
13:37like it's compelling.
13:38>> No, for sure. I mean, and it for sure I
13:40mean, it got it definitely got a lot of
13:42attention on Michigan, right? You know,
13:44rightly or wrongly. Like, some of it was
13:45very some of it was positive, some of it
13:46was negative. And like and the
13:47commentary we got we got we got some
13:50people that loved it. They're like,
13:52that's the emotion we want to see. This
13:53is great for our sport. And you have
13:55other people like
13:56this is terrible. It's so disrespectful.
13:58It's so unsportsmanlike. And so it just
14:01goes to show like everybody's got a
14:03different opinion of like what that what
14:05that line is of what everyone call
14:07whether if it's a sportsmanship line or
14:09line or or not. Um, and I think and it's
14:12different between from sport to sport.
14:14It's like, you know, if you watch the,
14:17you know, where I'm a Detroit Lions fan,
14:18right? So, you watch a Lions game the
14:19other day and they, you know, they they
14:21pull a Packers offside and every one of
14:23them is is their, you know,
14:26>> Oh my gosh, yeah.
14:27>> doing the Charlie Brown emotes, right?
14:28Like,
14:30okay, how is that is that fun or is that
14:32taunting?
14:33>> Yeah, it's fun. I think it's fun.
14:35>> so it gets gets looked at differently
14:37because it's a different sport. So,
14:40yeah, um yeah, is it was it was it good
14:44for the sport? I don't I don't know at
14:45the end of the day. Did it get a lot of
14:47eyes on Michigan? Yeah, it got a lot of
14:48eyes on us you know, again, rightly or
14:50rightly or wrongly. It certainly like
14:52built up a storyline, I think, of
14:55you know, Trent McFallon and Simeon, you
14:58know, because they were going to meet at
14:59Big 10s in a couple of weeks and then
15:01they were going to meet again at
15:03Nationals after that. So, you know, it
15:05definitely continued to build the story
15:07because they're both big personalities,
15:08right? They both won two two big relays
15:11at at Penn Relays.
15:13Um
15:14and uh
15:15you know, I think that that kind of
15:17energy drives them them both. So,
15:20um
15:21certainly certainly help feed
15:24kind of fuel that fire going through the
15:25rest of the season.
15:26>> I bet I'd venture to say if we looked at
15:28the ratings and the views, I bet views
15:30were up that year for the 1,500 in the
15:31Big 10. One because of the competition.
15:33You got the I mean,
15:35that was such a deep or the
15:37sorry, it was such a deep field in
15:38general. But also to see those two
15:40compete against each other multiple
15:41times. I'm a Pittsburgh Steelers fan and
15:43all I could think about was like, this
15:44is like Steelers I
15:47Cleveland fans everywhere are going to
15:48throw their arms up in this, but it's
15:50like Steelers Ravens, you know? Like,
15:52you always want that rematch. Sometimes
15:53we play them a third time in the
15:54playoffs and that's what it felt like at
15:56NCAA's. It was like they've seen each
15:58other once, they've seen each other
15:59twice, now they're going to see each
16:01other again. And uh I I mean, I think
16:03it's fun. It's compelling. So, I want to
16:05I'm going to switch gears a little and I
16:06want to talk about training because I
16:09have to know. I have to know how you're
16:10doing it, what what you're putting in
16:13the eggs in the morning. But
16:15really what I what I'm curious about is
16:17take me through a week in the life of a
16:20of a University of Michigan
16:22middle distance runner, 800 miler. I
16:24know that it's going to pivot a little.
16:25So, let's just stay with the mile.
16:26Um
16:27and let's say we're in we're in post
16:30cross country
16:31two weeks post cross country
16:33priming up for indoor.
16:35What are some things that you're
16:36prioritizing throughout the week?
16:39>> Yeah, I mean two weeks post cross
16:40country, I mean I mean it depends a
16:42little bit like um with the with the
16:45milers. Like last year
16:47last year after cross, Trent went and
16:49well he was going to run BU and then got
16:50and then got sick. So, we actually just
16:52like
16:53we kind of shifted mode a little bit and
16:55just we're trying to do a little bit of
16:57a little bit of 3K specific work just to
16:58get just to get ready for the track. But
17:01um but more often than not, you know, we
17:04come out of we come out of nationals and
17:06you know, it's Thanksgiving week. So, um
17:09I just tend to give the guys just some
17:10down some downtime. Um I usually you
17:12know, my big recommendation and I don't
17:14like I don't like taking a lot of
17:16time off.
17:17I don't I don't believe or like hey,
17:19we're just
17:20hey, just take Thanksgiving and don't do
17:21anything. I'm like okay, you come off a
17:23pretty emotional race at at uh at
17:26nationals like
17:28you know, if you need a you need a day
17:29or two of just like hey, I just want to
17:31shut down and do nothing, that's that's
17:32fine. But then let's get back and start
17:34doing some running during during that
17:36week. And usually I'll try to build in a
17:38workout late in the week. We'll just do
17:39like a a progression run or you know,
17:43really light fartlek or something like
17:45right after Thanksgiving. This is kind
17:47of the first introduction back. And then
17:48we get back to class on the Monday and
17:50and then we're kind of right back into
17:51things. And so for us, it's almost like
17:54that
17:55[clears throat]
17:56kind of end of November, beginning of
17:57December
17:59we get back to some pretty basic stuff.
18:00So, it's kind of straight back into
18:03threshold work.
18:05Hills for us are going to be a a a big
18:07thing in that especially through
18:09December. We're trying to I try to stay
18:10off the track if I can uh for the first
18:13part of December until the weather
18:15changes. So, you know, we'll stick more
18:17to like
18:18you know, 200 300 meter type hills um
18:22kind of for a a more kind of specific
18:24session, if you want to if you want to
18:26call it that. Um,
18:27>> Mhm.
18:28>> but we do a little bit more effort-based
18:29work kind of in that that first couple
18:31weeks um coming out of coming out of
18:33cross country,
18:35um not worried as much about the
18:37stopwatch so much.
18:39>> Mhm. How many How many quality sessions
18:42a week are you doing and how are you
18:45prioritizing threshold over VO2 in an
18:48era where everyone is obsessed with
18:50double threshold?
18:51>> Yeah, I mean it's um
18:53you know, we're talking track track
18:55season. Um, I'm a big believer that that
18:59at some point like if you want to run
19:00fast, you've got to train fast. Like you
19:02just you have to be able to you have to
19:04be able to
19:05understand what that feels like and you
19:07have to be able to understand what an
19:09extension of that
19:11feels like. So you it Again, this is
19:13just my opinion. You can't just
19:16do threshold and a bunch of 200s and
19:17300s and that's
19:20that's the formula. Now I know I know
19:22that I know there I know that works,
19:24right? And that And this is what My My
19:25caveat is like there are
19:28um
19:28there is more than one way to skin a
19:30cat, right? And there is there are
19:33multiple recipes that can get you to the
19:36same the same point. I think a lot of
19:38the building blocks are the same and if
19:40you have the building blocks right, then
19:42you know, some of the specifics can you
19:44know, you can vary that, right?
19:46>> Mhm.
19:46>> Um,
19:48so we do
19:49we do believe and we do function that
19:53hey, everything we do is going to be
19:54built on a on a foundation of good
19:56aerobic
19:57support.
19:58Um, and so threshold, tempo, however you
20:01want to describe it, is always a part of
20:03what we how we want And you know,
20:05everybody everybody's got their you
20:06know, a different way to describe what
20:08they're what they're doing. But that is
20:09always
20:10a a function of what we do almost weekly
20:14um through the through the year.
20:16Um, there will be sometimes where you
20:18know, we we won't hang it a
20:20threshold session in
20:21uh during the week, but it's it's pretty
20:23consistent throughout the throughout the
20:25year.
20:27We don't do a lot of double threshold.
20:32We do some during
20:34the late part of the summer as we're
20:36building the cross country and we do a
20:37little bit
20:39during the cross country season.
20:42But we
20:43I find it a challenge at at Michigan in
20:45particular to do a lot of double
20:47threshold
20:49because my big concern comes out of
20:51recovery.
20:54And with our academic schedules, it
20:56becomes really challenging like I've got
20:58to have
20:59here at
21:00you know basically ready to go by 6:30
21:03at that's warmed up ready to start first
21:05rep at 6:30 in the morning. If we're
21:07going to do a double threshold then come
21:08back at
21:093:30 in the afternoon.
21:12And then you've got class in between
21:13there and you know and I know like as
21:16much as you know we can harp on guys
21:18about recovery. Let's make sure we get
21:20the right amount of sleep the night
21:21before.
21:22But you know it's hard being in a hard
21:24academic setting where it's like hey
21:27I've got
21:28I've got a study table after practice or
21:31I've I've got homework to do and I'm
21:34you know I'm doing homework until 10 11
21:37midnight and then I got to be ready for
21:39a 6:30 a.m. workout because we're going
21:41to work out again at 3:30 in the
21:42afternoon. Becomes really challenging.
21:44And so I worry from a recovery
21:45standpoint more than anything like
21:48does this does this really optimize what
21:50we're trying to trying to do.
21:53So we've played around with a couple of
21:55different ideas. We've done our double
21:58thresholds where we've gone Friday
22:00night, Saturday morning.
22:02>> I love that. I I think that is something
22:03that people are not talking enough about
22:06as an option.
22:07>> And I I and I like it
22:09one cuz we can I feel like we can get
22:11close to the same same stimulus that we
22:13want. You know the recovery time is
22:15maybe a little bit longer than what
22:18your traditional double threshold is
22:20going to be, but I know they're going to
22:21get recovered.
22:23>> Yeah.
22:24>> So I can build this I can build this
22:25additional volume of threshold,
22:28um know they're going to get recovered,
22:30um
22:31and fueled.
22:32Um, and that to me is more important
22:35than trying to slide it in, you know,
22:37early in the week. Now we have and we've
22:38done them early in the week when we when
22:40we've had to, but um that's a little bit
22:42more challenging. I I've this year
22:45um a a little bit more if we wanted to
22:47get additional threshold then we we more
22:50often have just scheduled three sessions
22:52and done you know two threshold sessions
22:54and then a more specific session. So
22:57you know again we get the
22:58you know maybe the same amount of volume
22:59we want to get. We
23:01we're just adding it you know a third
23:03session in instead of limiting it to two
23:05workouts a week.
23:07>> Yeah. So are you typically on a two
23:09workout a week schedule or like in that
23:12let's cuz we're I'm just using this now
23:14as an example cuz this is where we're
23:15headed. We're getting ready to go
23:16indoor.
23:17>> during cross country we have been very
23:20traditionally um
23:22two sessions a week. Um if we're going
23:25to do a third we may tie it into a long
23:27run. Um we would do some far liquor
23:29tempo in the in the middle of a long
23:31run. It's almost like a half a half a
23:32session I I would call it.
23:35Um
23:36so it it it depends where we are in the
23:38in the training cycle. If we have a kind
23:40of a bigger training block say and
23:42that's kind of like this year you know
23:44we didn't we didn't open up our first
23:46race until almost the end of September.
23:48So we had a we had a pretty big training
23:49block where we could do a few more of
23:51these kind of long run type workouts and
23:52that would get us a third session in
23:54in for the week. Um
23:56>> Mhm.
23:57>> but I'm not I'm also not married to like
23:59hey it has to be two, it has to be
24:00three.
24:01We don't have to have a we don't have to
24:03have a seven day micro cycle like like
24:05I'm I'm very open to like let's fit the
24:08like let's look at where we're racing
24:09and then just fit the training around
24:10that and wherever things
24:12fit in the week they fit in the week and
24:14it's there doesn't have to be one
24:15standard kind of schedule that we go off
24:17of.
24:18Once we get into the into the track
24:20season you know our 800 guys will be a
24:24little bit more consistently three
24:26sessions a week. Um the 1500 guys, um
24:29and the milers maybe, you know, five
24:32sessions in two weeks.
24:33>> Okay, yeah. Yeah, I like that. Um
24:35especially because obviously you've got
24:36racing built in there, which is going to
24:38take up one of those or substitute it
24:40out. Um so
24:42when you think about
24:44when you think about heading into indoor
24:46and you mentioned the 3K as like a a
24:50term and typically people associate 3K
24:523K work with VO2 max velocity and
24:56for all intents and purposes, I think
24:58that's fair. I think that's it's about
25:00as close as you can get. Um VO2 actually
25:03tends to correlate best with your mile
25:05time, believe it or not, but you can
25:07still hit VO2 max at 3K pace. So
25:09so what I was going to ask is is like is
25:11that something that you're prioritizing
25:14um because I'm imagining normal linear
25:16periodization starting wide and less
25:18specific like the 3K working on some of
25:20your deficit areas and then tapering in
25:23down towards some some specific mile
25:25work. So
25:26is is 3K work
25:29is 3K work at
25:31not the center but a priority at any
25:33point in the season for your milers? And
25:35if so, is it is it now?
25:37>> Yeah, so I don't know if I would say
25:39it's um
25:41I I don't know if I'd say it's a
25:43prior I think it's hard to say anything
25:44is a priority because there's so much
25:46that goes into being a miler, right? And
25:48and this is the way I look at it like
25:49there are so many pieces of the puzzle
25:50that you have to put together. You you
25:52know, you again, you have to have this
25:54foundation of aerobic work so your
25:55threshold tempo work, you have to have
25:57your VO2 max, you have to have your 800
25:59work, you have to have some like
26:01some some speed work in there actually
26:04where we're sprinting as well. And then
26:06we have your mile specific work. And so
26:08we're trying to fit all this in.
26:10Um so I would say I I'm challenged to
26:13say that there's
26:14like that is a specific thing that we
26:16do, but it is part of the overall the
26:19overall puzzle. And I would say we
26:21probably do more we would do more of
26:24that
26:25kind of in that early
26:27build up phase in the in the indoor
26:29season for sure.
26:30>> Mhm.
26:31>> But we will sprinkle that in throughout
26:33the
26:34throughout the season all the way
26:35through the outdoor season as as well.
26:38So there's always a at some point
26:40there's always touch points in our our
26:41training of all these different of all
26:43these different things, no matter where
26:44we kind of are in the season. But
26:47but [clears throat] we do I do tend to
26:48look at it more from
26:50that standpoint of like we kind of work
26:51the peripherals and and then work more
26:53towards specific
26:55you know when you're looking at kind of
26:56that pyramid.
26:58>> Yeah. Yeah.
26:59So do you train your speed based more
27:03speed oriented so 8:15 guys different
27:08than your 5K 1500 guys?
27:10Or they or do they train together or do
27:12they slide back and forth between
27:13>> Yeah, so we we
27:16I would say we train them we train them
27:18differently.
27:19There is crossover amongst all of our
27:21all of our groups.
27:23But we typically have four kind of four
27:24kind of distinct training groups. We
27:25have our 5K 10K group. We have a 1500 5K
27:28group.
27:29The steepers could fit in either one of
27:31those first two groups depending on you
27:33know their
27:34their makeup.
27:35An 800 1500 group and a kind of a pure
27:39800 group.
27:40So yeah, so our our 800 1500 guys will
27:44train slightly differently than our 1500
27:455K guys. Most of their real specific
27:48work we'll try to make sure that that is
27:50together on the on the same day.
27:53But obviously with the with the 5K with
27:55the 1500 5K guys we do have a little bit
27:57more kind of aerobic
27:59focus.
28:01With the 1500 8 guys it's more blended
28:03of like
28:05you know
28:06our specific session could be 800 or
28:071500 for them because they're they're
28:09pretty proficient in both of them.
28:12>> Yeah. Yeah.
28:13What is the most threshold volume you'll
28:15do in a session?
28:17Or the most you've ever done in a single
28:19session?
28:19>> The most we've ever done in a single
28:21session
28:22is
28:25maybe maybe 10 miles
28:27in a single session.
28:28That's pretty rare. I normally normally
28:31a a session I usually cap it 8 miles of
28:34threshold.
28:35Um, if we're doing it, if we're doing a
28:37double threshold day, we'll typically
28:39we'll cap it typically between 10 and 1
28:41and 12 miles.
28:42Um, and that's for somebody that's been
28:44in the program for a few years. For a
28:45freshman, it's for a freshman, we take a
28:47more a much more cautious approach. Like
28:50the freshman usually
28:52you know, a single a single day single
28:55threshold day, we may top out at
28:576 miles with them.
28:59Maybe not maybe not even that.
29:01Um, and if we're you know, we don't do a
29:03lot of double threshold with our
29:04freshman, but even then we're going to
29:06top they're going to top out at
29:087 or 8 miles in a double threshold day.
29:11>> Mhm. Mhm.
29:12So I'm going to ask a series of other
29:15questions as well. I'm I'm asking direct
29:17questions, but uh hopefully you're not
29:19bored to death with these. Um,
29:21the other question I was wondering is do
29:23you do you prefer
29:25uh a session that is very specific to
29:28one demand or a blended session? For
29:30example,
29:32I I have a hunch, but I don't know. The
29:33Michigan I would perceive as a blended
29:35session. You're going from fast to
29:38threshold to fast to threshold to really
29:40freaking fast.
29:42Um, so I would consider that more of a
29:43hybrid session where you're using each
29:46element to support the other where the
29:48threshold is
29:50uh it's a it's allowing recovery, but
29:51it's also introducing fatigue. And if
29:53done right, in theory, the threshold
29:54might be some of the hardest work that
29:56you do. It can be at least. So um, you
29:59know, are you more a proponent of I cuz
30:01I know that's a historical workout that
30:03you guys have been doing for years.
30:05But uh you know, like which one do you
30:08prefer
30:10and does it change as you go throughout
30:11the year?
30:12>> So I would say in cross country, we
30:15don't
30:16use hybrid sessions a whole lot.
30:18Michigan would be like kind of the one
30:21uh one example where we maybe get get
30:23away from that. And and maybe this is
30:25not 100% accurate. Like I do like to do
30:28I do like to change paces in in
30:30workouts, but maybe not as drastic as
30:32what a what a Michigan does.
30:34Um,
30:36>> Now do you mean change pace mid rep or
30:38change pace like you're going to do
30:39threshold 90%
30:41>> you like change
30:43like within the workout itself. So you
30:46know maybe we may do like
30:48broken thousand. So 600 at 600 at 10k
30:52pace, 400 at 5k pace or something like
30:54something like that.
30:55And we do that maybe it's some of that
30:57you know introductory as we're getting a
31:00little just trying to introduce do some
31:01stuff before we start racing
31:04just to get a feel of running a little
31:05bit faster.
31:07But I do tend to be more
31:09I guess more more traditional in in
31:12in cross country where it's a lot of
31:14like you know
31:15whatever 10 10 10 or 12 by a k or six or
31:18seven by a mile. And you know a lot of
31:22times you know starting at pace and and
31:25hopefully working down you know some
31:27pretty traditional stuff.
31:30But I think
31:31you know we'll we'll throw in we'll
31:33throw in some of those more hybrid
31:35sessions within that. So again we don't
31:38get stuck into a routine
31:41and we do throw you know some things
31:43that you you know you're not going to
31:45you're not going to ever be in a cross
31:46country race where it goes
31:48from tempo pace to pace or you know
31:51yeah you know it's it's an extreme but
31:53it it's like you do get these ebbs and
31:55flows in a cross country race where you
31:57have things that break your rhythm or
31:59you have periods where you know where
32:01you are trying to you know settle or
32:04regroup. And so I think from a from a
32:06mental standpoint it also gives you a
32:08little bit of a
32:10a different stimulus mentally than what
32:12it just a straight up like hey we're
32:14going to do 10 by a k off you know 75
32:16seconds and
32:18whatever we're going to run
32:18>> rep.
32:19>> Yeah it's like you know it's not the
32:21it's not the same right? It's like you
32:22can kind of prep the same almost every
32:25rep.
32:26>> Yeah yeah.
32:27So then when you get into track
32:30are you do you get that more?
32:31>> we do much more we do a lot more hybrid
32:34type sessions in track
32:37or a lot of things where there's pace
32:39variation in it,
32:41you know, either within within a rep or
32:43within the within the workout.
32:46Especially with our 5K and our milers,
32:49we do a lot more than that. For our 800
32:51guys, it is much more kind of kind of
32:54very specific to what we're trying what
32:56we're trying to accomplish
32:58in the race, [clears throat] but
33:01yeah, I think in those
33:03you know, the 5K group and the and the
33:051500 group in particular,
33:08again, because you see more pace
33:10variation or you can see more pace
33:13variation, I think it's one it's good to
33:15practice that.
33:18And I'm also like
33:21don't like repeating things a lot. Like
33:23I I like to get our athletes thinking
33:25within a session.
33:27>> Yeah.
33:28>> So I think that again, I think there's
33:29like
33:30you know, there's a certain there's a
33:32certain art or mentality that you just
33:34have to
33:35you have to be able to learn how to
33:36adapt. And and so I like
33:39I like to provide challenges where you
33:40have to adapt.
33:42>> Yeah. Yeah. So then that kind of leads
33:44into this question I was thinking about
33:45is like are you using those change in
33:47paces as a means of
33:50and the answer may be both
33:53like a physiological stimulus or a
33:56let me phrase this.
33:58Let me give an example maybe. So I could
34:00see a universe where you might have
34:02somebody do four or five by K at
34:03threshold and then jump down into some
34:06300, 400, 500, 600 type work at mile
34:09pace,
34:11maybe some of the the shorter stuff even
34:12faster, right? And the idea that you
34:15know, okay, well, I still have a miler,
34:17it's an aerobic event. I need to
34:18maintain some degree of volume here. So
34:21I'm going to do the threshold, get it
34:22out of the way, and then we're going to
34:23do some specific miler stuff. But I
34:25think some other people might say, well,
34:27the the added benefit is that you have
34:29some pre-fatigue, so to speak, which
34:32at 600 m in a mile, you're going to
34:35exhibit, right? I mean, when things get
34:36hard, you have to run mile pace while
34:39you're fatigued. And
34:41from what I've observed, this is
34:42something that a lot of coaches will do
34:43in different ways. And this is really
34:45where I think you can get creative in
34:46the type of session that you build. And
34:48as you said, it can be a very much
34:49there's more more than one way to skin a
34:50cat.
34:51Is is it for you something where you're
34:54like I'm trying to maintain the volume
34:56by adding some threshold work into this
34:58more specific session with with speed
35:00endurance or is it more that you know,
35:03hey, I you know, I actually want to use
35:04this as a stimulus so that they they
35:07have like some fatigue in their leg.
35:09Does that question make sense?
35:10>> Yeah, yeah, and I think it's it's a
35:12it's a
35:13a little bit it's a little bit dependent
35:14because it can be either one. Like there
35:16are there may be some some days where
35:18it's like okay, we we want to put a
35:20little fatigue
35:23in them. You know, one one we can you
35:25know, maybe we haven't we haven't
35:26touched threshold for a little bit and
35:27so you know, because threshold's not
35:29super taxing, we could do a little bit
35:31at the beginning of the workout and as
35:32long as we give enough recovery, we can
35:34still do some quality work on the back
35:37the back end of it. So
35:38um so there's that there's that idea.
35:41Um
35:42uh
35:43sometimes though I may even flip it
35:45around where it 's like I
35:47I want the specific work. I want to make
35:49sure the specific work is specific. I
35:51don't I don't want them to have fatigue
35:53in their legs. I want them to be sharp
35:54and ready and and really make sure that
35:56we hit this.
35:57And so we may do the specific work on
35:58the front end
36:00and then put some
36:02put some threshold on the on the back
36:03end of it. Now my guys hate it when we
36:05do it that way. They hate it when we do
36:06it that way.
36:08>> I was going to say like as you said
36:10that, I've done that to people before.
36:12It's not something I often hear about,
36:13but I've done that to people before.
36:15I've done that myself in fact this week
36:17and you just feel so flat for the
36:19threshold and you're just like
36:22oh my gosh, it's it is truly worse than
36:24the opposite in my opinion, but I think
36:26it helps you major in the majors. I
36:28mean, is that the thought?
36:29>> Yeah, no, for sure and I I think even
36:31just from my own experience, I know like
36:33when I when I was being coached by coach
36:34Warhurst and we would we would do a lot.
36:36We do we do a lot of tempo and then
36:39specific work.
36:41Um
36:42especially like
36:43late in my collegiate career, early in
36:45my professional career. Um we did a lot
36:47of like 4-mile 4-mile tempo and then
36:50hit a whole bunch of 100s.
36:53And when it when it went well, it was
36:55great.
36:56But there were also times where it's
36:58like you either ran the tempo too hard
37:00um or you just you know you didn't come
37:02in as recovered into the into the
37:03workout. And so you come out of the come
37:05out of 4 miles of tempo
37:07and we typically were like like 4 miles
37:09straight tempo. Um
37:11and you come out of that and then you're
37:13like I got to I got to work out
37:15now? Like I got to I got to
37:16>> a real was it a real tempo? Like okay
37:19>> Well no we probably ran it too hard back
37:20then right?
37:21>> Okay I was going to say like
37:23>> Like we would we [clears throat] would
37:24regularly run 19 minutes or faster for a
37:274-mile temp.
37:28>> Oh my
37:29This is when you're in college?
37:31>> Oh yeah.
37:32>> Oh my goodness. Holy
37:35>> Yeah I remember that one.
37:36>> was your
37:37what was your 5K at the time?
37:39Was it in that workout?
37:39>> I only ran one 5K I only ran one 5
37:42No I ran two 5Ks when I was in college
37:45and there's there's nothing nothing
37:46impressive. I don't think I broke I
37:48don't think I broke 14:20.
37:50>> So you were pretty much a beast in your
37:52>> I was
37:53you know I I was like that that that's
37:55maybe you know I was
37:57you know I was uh
38:00no lower than 8th in NCAA like cross
38:01country all four years. So I mean I had
38:04a pretty big aerobic engine.
38:06>> There's that confidence. I knew it was
38:07in there. We just had to bear We just
38:08had to pull it out of you.
38:10>> Yeah it's like the the little the little
38:11known stat you know I've got all these
38:13mile stats and
38:14and uh
38:17and you know national champions from
38:19from the track but um but I was a pretty
38:21good cross country guy in my day.
38:23>> They tend to be and what you're
38:24describing sounds a lot like Trent. Like
38:26I think a lot of people just assume that
38:28he's a good miler. Oh they know he's a
38:30good miler. But he's been he's been
38:32slowly cooking in cross country.
38:35>> I mean you can look at like his success
38:37in the mile is is directly correlated to
38:39how much better he's gotten in cross
38:40country. I mean it's like
38:42uh I am I'm a 100% 100% believer in like
38:47you know if you want be a great miler,
38:48you better be able to hold your chops in
38:50cross country. Like, you just
38:52you have you have to be.
38:54And and all our best all our best milers
38:56that have come through here have been
38:58been great on the grass. You know, you
39:00know, myself,
39:01Nate Brannen, Nick Willis, Alan Webb,
39:03like I mean they're great athletes you
39:05know
39:06>> Just throwing throwing some names out
39:07there.
39:08>> I mean but you know you look at their
39:10look at their result I mean Nate Brannen
39:11was an 800 guy coming out of high school
39:13and that guy ended up I think like
39:15three-time All American in cross
39:16country.
39:17At least two, but maybe maybe maybe
39:19three. The only year he really struggled
39:21was his freshman year.
39:22And that was a 146 guy coming out of
39:24coming out of high school, didn't have a
39:25lot of cross country background. It's
39:27like
39:28and then as soon as he took to that, I
39:29mean
39:30his 1500 and mile got exponentially
39:32better. And Trent was the same way. Now
39:34he he won you know he redshirted his
39:36freshman year in cross country. He
39:38he ran about 26 minutes at Nutty Combe
39:40that year in the in the B race.
39:43But he won you know he won the Big 10
39:45Outdoors his freshman year in the 1500
39:47and then and then jumped on the cross
39:49country bandwagon after that.
39:51And you know goes from winning Big Tens
39:54to making an NCAA Final the next year to
39:56finishing second the year after that.
39:58So
39:59>> Jeez.
40:00Yeah, I I like to think that cross
40:02country I think oftentimes we get so
40:04infatuated infatuated with times, right?
40:06Especially in track, obviously, but it
40:08it bleeds a little into cross country
40:10and the one thing I tend to look at with
40:12cross country runners is it it seems to
40:15me to be an index of grit
40:17because you are going to be forced to
40:19deal with a lot of variance that you're
40:21not going to see on the track. I mean
40:23for all intents and purposes, a track is
40:24a test tube. Yeah, you got a little
40:26rain, you got a little wind, but you're
40:28running in a circle that is flat, the
40:30same circle with the same bends and the
40:32same curvature. I mean everything is the
40:34same, especially indoor. I mean indoor
40:36is a test tube.
40:37And unless you're at BU.
40:39But my point is is that in cross
40:42country, there's a lot more undulation
40:44and variation and one of the things that
40:46we know is that when you run up a hill,
40:47you increase oxygen consumption more,
40:49right? And then it comes back down and
40:51there's a there's a delay there and and
40:53your ability to increase and then come
40:55back down and increase and settle in
40:56again without things drifting up and
40:58getting ugly
41:00um to me is like
41:02I mean there's a term for it. It's
41:03literally called physiological
41:04resilience, right? It's your ability to
41:06sustain a workload at at any given point
41:08in a race.
41:10Um and I think that is something that
41:12the mile isn't necessarily doesn't
41:14demand
41:15but it certainly helps you during the
41:17training for the mile, right? And I
41:19think they did a study 83% of the 1500
41:21is aerobic.
41:23So the majority of it is aerobic and I
41:25bet if I measured Trent McFarland's VO2
41:27max and I calculated it out and I did
41:29all my numbers
41:30I would almost guarantee it's going to
41:31come out to whatever like 14 or 15 mph
41:34whatever his estimated
41:36I think it's 15 mph whatever his
41:37estimated mile time is like there's an
41:39equation we can use and I guarantee it's
41:41dang close and
41:44you know I think people don't realize
41:45that cross country is
41:47it works all things and and I often
41:50I feel that some people de-prioritize it
41:52because like well I'm a miler and the
41:53athletes I'm saying
41:55um
41:55>> for sure.
41:56>> but it's you know it's it's a really
41:58important piece of the recipe. So okay
42:01last few questions here. I've been Thank
42:02you so much for entertaining my
42:04questions. Um
42:05okay what is your if you're willing to
42:07share what is your favorite session for
42:10800 runners
42:11and milers
42:13separately? Favorite 800 session to give
42:15favorite miler session to give and it
42:16could be it could be one that you did.
42:18>> Yeah I'm going to say it's it's tricky
42:20because um and my guys will tell you
42:22this I don't like I don't repeat a lot
42:24of workouts.
42:25>> What?
42:26>> Um
42:26I don't I don't like I don't like
42:28repeating workouts. I I think it's I
42:30think it's um
42:31you know I think for an athlete it's
42:33really challenging on repeating a
42:35workout especially when you've knocked
42:36one out of the park and then you've got
42:37to repeat it and the comparison factor
42:40can really mess with you. I mean it can
42:41be great if you if you have another
42:43another good one but there's no way to
42:45put yourself in the same exact situation
42:47that you were the last time you did that
42:48workout.
42:49>> In your track.
42:50>> And so
42:52>> [laughter]
42:53>> And so I
42:54I'm very hesitant. I
42:57I don't It doesn't mean I don't repeat
42:58workouts, but I'm rarely like repeat
43:00workouts I don't necessarily repeat them
43:02on the the same the same time we did
43:04them in a previous season.
43:06>> You sense the irony when you have a
43:08workout called the Michigan, right?
43:10>> Well, that's the one [laughter] where
43:11that's the one where we you know it's
43:12pretty standard, but even even that I've
43:14gotten away I don't do it as much as I
43:17as I used to. Like we only we only did
43:18one Michigan this fall and normally we
43:20would do two or three.
43:22But we we cranked our first one and I
43:24was like, you know what? We're we're
43:25good.
43:26We figured out we can do we can do that
43:28one. We're we don't need to [laughter]
43:29necessarily do it again. Now maybe we do
43:31it next week before preliminary or
43:33before Regionals. I don't I don't know.
43:34But
43:36yeah, I think like with our 800 guys
43:41you know I I like I like doing
43:44broken 800s as we're getting close to
43:47like really
43:48>> Yes.
43:49>> really getting ready to kind of hit
43:50something. So whether that's 500 300 600
43:52200
43:54you know that would be kind of the first
43:55the first set of the workout. We'd
43:57typically we'll go like you know 500 300
44:00or a 600 200
44:02>> And 400 400.
44:03>> you know I don't I haven't done 400 400
44:06a lot.
44:07I like doing a little I like I like I I
44:10like the idea of going a little bit
44:12deeper on the on the first rep. Again,
44:14getting it kind of the extension of like
44:17the especially like
44:18you know we got guys trying to run 144
44:20145. So
44:21you know coming through in 50 51 and
44:25being able to then like yeah again
44:29really understanding what you need to do
44:30in the next the next 200, right? Like
44:32you can't you can't afford to back off
44:34too much in that in that 200. You're not
44:36going to you're not going to accelerate
44:37on the back end of it.
44:39So getting them to 500 600 really
44:41feeling what they're going to feel like
44:43at at that at that point. So we do 500
44:46300 or 600 200 you know take a big set
44:49rest and then we usually come back and
44:50we'll do two by 300
44:52you know pretty pretty quick off short
44:54rest.
44:55And that may be the that may be the
44:56session right there.
44:58>> Yeah. Yeah.
44:59>> that
44:59>> You're making my You're making my my
45:01heart pound as I think about running a
45:03600 all out, you know, coming through
45:05coming through 350 thinking to yourself
45:07like, oh no, it only gets worse.
45:09>> [laughter]
45:10>> Yeah. On the
45:12Yeah, on the 1500 side of things,
45:16mile side like
45:17I don't know, we we've had a a few a few
45:20different ones. The one that guys have
45:22really liked We've done it a We've done
45:24it a few times the last few years. We
45:25did three by 800
45:28three by 800 with like
45:32six-ish minutes rest somewhere in there.
45:34And And we're usually starting off right
45:36around like two flat on the first the
45:38first one. So usually like two flat
45:41and then usually like
45:43you know, 1 55-ish 155 156 and then
45:48you know, the last time we did it, we
45:50closed in like 148.
45:52>> Holy that
45:53>> So
45:54>> is they say all you got.
45:57>> So you know, that was that's definitely
45:59been one we've we've hit that a couple a
46:01couple of times. That's a little bit
46:03less volume than I like to do, but we're
46:04going so intense on the back end of that
46:07that you know, we keep the keep the
46:08overall volume like cuz usually with my
46:10usually with my 1500 guys, I like to get
46:12you know, three to four K of volume in a
46:16in a mile specific session.
46:18Three to four K Three to four K
46:21Okay, yeah, okay. So almost double the
46:24No, I got it.
46:25I was going to I was going to ask you
46:27this you know, earlier if if your
46:29Canadian roots sometimes when you were
46:32like, oh, we do one K's or mile repeats,
46:33I'm like, you should make them do 1500s
46:35just so they that they have to respect
46:36the metric system.
46:37>> Yeah, no, we don't do 15 No. I can I can
46:40I can easily switch between Imperial and
46:42in metric, but
46:44but yeah, 1500 1500 reps that's just a
46:46that's just an odd
46:48It's just inconvenient.
46:50>> Yeah. [laughter]
46:51Yeah.
46:52But I but I do like you you when we get
46:55into kind of championship season, doing
46:59like, you know, we might maybe do
47:01something like um, you know, split 1200,
47:04split 1000, split 800, you know, on the
47:07on the track side of things with our
47:08with our milers with that,
47:10[clears throat] you know,
47:10>> Mhm.
47:11>> say like 800 400 on the 1200
47:14where we're, you know, kind of right at
47:16race effort
47:18and then and then a you know, working on
47:20kind of closing big acceleration
47:22uh in the second the second part of that
47:24rather that shorter rep.
47:26Um, so I like doing I like doing stuff
47:28like that. Um,
47:30um,
47:31or just like building through a session.
47:33We want to get a little bit bigger
47:34volume like then blending a 3K 1500
47:36session together and we get a little bit
47:37more volume in in that way.
47:39>> Mhm. Mhm.
47:40Yeah.
47:41This is awesome. I'm thoroughly enjoying
47:43this. I'm getting excited. I'm
47:45I have ADHD and if you haven't noticed
47:48from this conversation you will, but one
47:50of the things that I get excited about
47:51is switching workouts because now it's
47:53getting towards track and I was all
47:54excited about the 5K
47:56and now I'm like, god, dude, I just I
47:58just want to get through my 5K or 8K
48:00race and I want to do something fast.
48:02Um, as you're describing these I'm
48:04impulsively like I'm going to go put my
48:05spikes on and run a hard 600.
48:08And then I think as I got 200 m into
48:10that rep in my head I realized I don't
48:12want to do that.
48:13Um,
48:14so
48:14>> I know that's the one if I if I ever had
48:16to go back and do it over again I would
48:18not want to do 800 m sessions man. Those
48:20are
48:21>> They're brutal.
48:22So, okay, this is the the last series of
48:24questions. It's it's really two
48:26questions in one and then I have one
48:27final one. So uh this question is
48:30basically
48:31uh do you use any technologies in or
48:34physiological metrics in your in your
48:36programming? So for example, are you
48:37measuring VO2 maxes? Are you measuring
48:39lactates? I know you have Jeff Burns,
48:41great biomechanist. I don't know if he's
48:42still there, but great biomechanist. I
48:44think he was a postdoc. He was doing
48:45some some studies on on the spring
48:47characteristics of of Michigan men. So,
48:51you know, are you using any of these
48:52tools during your sessions?
48:55>> So not um
48:57not to the extent that we could. Um,
49:00So Jeff Jeff is great. He's out of
49:02actually in Colorado Springs. He he
49:04works with USOPC now.
49:06Um
49:06>> Of course he does.
49:08>> Um but we actually um so one of my one
49:10of my former teammates um is a professor
49:14in biomedical engineering and in our
49:16school of kinesiology and he runs a lab
49:19Ken Kozloff.
49:20>> I don't know that name. I should though,
49:22but go on.
49:23>> Yeah, so he runs a lab in in the
49:25basement of our facility. So we have a
49:27biomechanics and physiology lab in the
49:28basement of our facility.
49:30>> Of course they put it in the basement.
49:31>> Yeah, no it was great. Well it's funny
49:33when we we built our facility almost 10
49:34years ago and and part of the project
49:36was we were going to have this um this
49:38partnership with the kinesiology
49:40department and have a lab in the
49:41basement
49:42and then with like with anything we ran
49:44out of money, right? And so the first
49:46thing that got cut was this lab got cut
49:48and and so it wasn't until
49:50maybe three years ago that they that
49:53between kinesiology and athletics they
49:54finally got kind of the funding back to
49:55put this lab
49:57in. So now we got
49:58uh a lab downstairs where we we can we
50:00can do all the testing that we kind of
50:02need. So like last year we did um
50:05we did some uh
50:07VO2 max testing
50:10>> Mhm.
50:10>> and we didn't really utilize it much.
50:13It's not a metric that I really
50:15that interests me that much honestly.
50:18Um
50:18>> I'll forgive you.
50:19>> And [laughter]
50:20this year we we um
50:22we again we we made this optional for
50:24everybody, but um you know we have a we
50:26have a couple guys that have their own
50:27you know their own lactate meters.
50:29And we have a bunch that do not. Um and
50:32so what we what we did was we went and
50:35did some lactate threshold testing down
50:37the down the basement where
50:39um
50:40[clears throat] one thing most of our
50:41guys have is they have some sort of
50:43wearable, right? And so they have they
50:45have either either a Garmin or a Coros
50:47or something you know how they're
50:49measuring heart rate and whatnot. And so
50:51I was like well we don't necessarily
50:53have the capacity to go out and and you
50:56know have 25 guys and prick their finger
50:59in the middle of every threshold
51:00session.
51:01But if we can do some lactate threshold
51:04testing where
51:05we find you know, we just have the range
51:07of heart rates,
51:09then you know, we at least have a
51:11starting point for guys that are that
51:12want to go off of of of a watch where we
51:14can kind of monitor heart rate.
51:17Um so especially when we're doing our
51:19you know, our thresholds,
51:21um we can dial in a little we can dial
51:23in a little little bit better. Um and
51:25it's obviously it's not going to be
51:26exact um like with anything, but um it's
51:29giving us a little bit of
51:31a little bit of a little bit of room for
51:33our athletes to take some ownership of
51:35their training where they can give me a
51:37little bit of feedback just
51:38not necessarily just
51:39a verbal how how do I feel? It's like we
51:41can actually like okay, I'm like
51:43I'm within this range or I'm outside of
51:45this range one way one way or the other
51:47and then we can adjust on the on the
51:48fly.
51:49Uh for my guys that have like tape
51:50meters, we have used them a little bit
51:52where I let them use them in a few
51:53sessions.
51:54Um
51:55but I'll be honest like
51:57I
51:58also believe that you should have a feel
52:01for what
52:02threshold feels like.
52:04>> Yeah, you should know.
52:05>> and I'm like
52:06>> Yeah.
52:06>> and I'll go back to like
52:08again, I'm an I'm an I have an
52:09engineering degree so like I love the
52:11science side of things like
52:13but
52:14I'm like I competed from the time I was
52:1712 years old until I was 35
52:20and in my entire career I did one VO2
52:23max test. That was when I was
52:25>> it?
52:26>> I can't remember. It was in the 80s some
52:27something something
52:28>> No. Someone dig this. That is awesome.
52:32>> Yeah. I'll have to find I'll have to
52:33find it at some point. But um
52:35but
52:36but that's it. Then we did everything
52:38off of feel. Um like and you know, and
52:41that again that took some that took some
52:42trial and error. Like I said, there was
52:44a a point in my collegiate career where
52:46we ran tempo stuff
52:48and I know this now, I ran it too hard.
52:50But I I know because of the way I felt
52:52coming out of it.
52:54>> Yeah, you're you're especially as a
52:55miler.
52:56>> based on how like you're supposed to
52:57feel.
52:58Um and so
53:00again, I go back to my guys of like I
53:02don't want you to live by your watch or
53:04your Coros or or your heart rate strap,
53:07or what your Whoop tells you. Like
53:09that's
53:11that can be a good
53:12guideline for you, but I want you to be
53:14able to feel this too. And I'm also
53:15going back to like there's going to come
53:16a point in the race in a race
53:19where
53:20you're either you're either good you
53:21either have it or you don't have like
53:23you know you can't look at your watch
53:25and be like I'm running too fast like
53:26I'm going to I'm red lining.
53:28Um so again I know for you know for the
53:31die hard like oh we've got to prick our
53:32finger every every other rep
53:34person out there they're like oh man
53:36these guys are not doing it right. But
53:38um
53:39again we're shifting a little we're
53:40shifting a little bit more in that
53:41direction and the and the great thing I
53:42would say that we have here with the lab
53:44downstairs
53:46um the the lab technician that runs it
53:48has about a dozen students and so we're
53:50kind of in discussions of like hey can
53:52we do some more consistent lactate
53:55threshold testing
53:56in the middle of our workouts
53:58where we got you know we've got students
54:00out there that are that are doing this.
54:02It's not like it's not going to be me
54:04out there or my assistant coach or my
54:06athletes running over and trying to do
54:07it themselves in the middle of workout
54:09like we want to structure it so it like
54:11it really works for our athletes.
54:12>> sense. Yeah yeah yeah.
54:14>> And so yeah so you know in in the
54:16meantime it's like we use a range of
54:18like
54:19um you know I dial things back like
54:22you know I I
54:23from say like um
54:26you know
54:27you know we use V dot tables a little
54:28bit but I find that to be a little bit
54:29too fast on the threshold end of things
54:32and so we usually dial back like
54:3410 or 15 seconds a mile from from what
54:36somebody's somebody's Jack Daniels V dot
54:38would be
54:39um and kind of use that as a kind of a
54:42starting range and then go off a feel
54:44like really tell like just tell me how
54:46you're feeling or when I when we do it
54:48on the track I just listen to
54:49respiration rate and you can you can get
54:51a lot from respiration rate of just like
54:53you can hear whether an athlete is
54:55running too hard or not.
54:57>> So
54:58>> you know there's a there's a little bit
54:59of this art to it as well right where if
55:01you don't have all the either you don't
55:03have the tools or you don't have the
55:04means to use the tools as consistently
55:06as you would like. And there's other
55:08ways where we can
55:09get to a pretty close approximation.
55:12>> So I had a few thoughts that I'm going
55:13to share on that
55:15that occurred to me. Number one is the
55:17best way to me to approximate someone's
55:19lactate threshold if you don't have
55:21anything, you just do a 25-minute tempo
55:23and you take their average pace and
55:24maybe take a few seconds off of it.
55:26Almost like nine out of 10 times that
55:28approximates it because that is the
55:30system that you use and
55:32um the other thing is it's variable
55:34day-to-day. So it's not even like it's
55:37you know, it's it's not entirely
55:38reliable. Like
55:39I do mine on the same treadmill on the
55:41same time of day with the same meal and
55:42the same lactate sensor and the same
55:44temperature. Everything is the same.
55:45It's it's a lab it's a literal lab. Um
55:48and so for me it makes sense and and I
55:50would say you could take it twice in the
55:52middle and at the end. In the middle to
55:53get a red light, green light and at the
55:55end to get a data point. And I often
55:57find that it's it's more helpful to use
55:59it and Pete Julian has said this as a
56:00red light, as a like, hey, we're going
56:02too hard as opposed to a green light,
56:04which made me [clears throat] think
56:05about the ventilation thing you brought
56:06up. That is 100% true. We call that
56:08hyperventilation and basically you can
56:10map out the relationship between
56:11ventilation and workload. And at some
56:13point it starts becoming nonlinear. And
56:16there's actually two break points. So
56:17it's pretty flat, it increases and then
56:19it really shoots up. And we call these
56:21ventilatory threshold points. Well, one
56:23of the ventilatory threshold points
56:25approximates your lactate threshold. So
56:27if you have that coaching eye, you're
56:28100% right. You're quite literally
56:30listening and hearing what that
56:31ventilation rate sounds like. And the
56:33other thing that you mentioned is you
56:34can see it. I mean, you can see it when
56:36their arms start getting a little funky,
56:38they start lengthening the stride, they
56:40look a little
56:42plody almost. Like they're spending more
56:43time on the ground.
56:44>> face. You watch their facial expression,
56:46right? You can tell when somebody you
56:48can tell when somebody's starting to
56:49either get distressed or
56:52you know, they're concerned that they're
56:53getting to that point, right? And and so
56:56>> Yeah.
56:56>> you know, there's that part or it's just
56:57like just communicate, right? Like at
56:59the end of the day it's like we're
57:01trying to build relationships with our
57:02athletes and the ones we have the best
57:03relationships with are the are the ones
57:05that we coach the best.
57:07>> Yeah.
57:07>> so if you if you're okay knowing like,
57:10hey, I am not to be upset if we have to
57:12run 10 seconds per mile slower
57:14because that's where your threshold is
57:16on the on the day, then just
57:19then just talk to me about it. Like
57:20we're looking for consistency in
57:21training. We're not necessarily looking
57:23to like be as fast as we can every day
57:25every day out.
57:27>> Mhm.
57:28To the the last question I was going to
57:29ask is how you feel like things have
57:31changed throughout your career as a
57:32runner and now as a coach, but the
57:33second thing I had to ask is does Camden
57:35Law actually not wear a watch and
57:38actually just blow up every workout?
57:40Like is he he when I had him on the
57:42podcast, he said he was basically aloof.
57:44He's like, I don't know, man. I just go
57:46I just run as hard as I can.
57:48>> have a he doesn't have a wristwatch. It
57:50I mean it drives me nuts. Like I mean
57:52and I'm I'm and I'm not a big like
57:55I'm not necessarily
57:56>> funny.
57:57>> Yeah, I'm I'm like just have the basics.
57:58Just like get a get a Timex Ironman and
58:01put it on your wrist so you can at least
58:02time a time a rep, but no, he I mean he
58:04holds a stopwatch in it. Like he kind of
58:06grabs [clears throat] like his old janky
58:07stopwatch [laughter]
58:08>> yeah, it's like a sprinter.
58:10>> and that's what he uses to to to time
58:12himself.
58:13Um but he only uses that in workouts.
58:15Like you go out for a run and it's like
58:17it's a good thing he knows how long
58:18their different loops are because
58:19otherwise he'd have no idea,
58:22you know, how far how how fast he was
58:25running, but yeah, that's but I mean it
58:27goes to I mean it just goes to show.
58:29It's like,
58:30you know, not
58:31everything has to be dialed in exact to,
58:36you know,
58:37the millimeter or the millisecond,
58:38right? It's like
58:39>> Sometimes workouts
58:40>> out on a day and he it's like when he
58:43feels good, he runs a little bit faster
58:44and when he feels sluggish, he runs a
58:46little bit slower. And that kind of goes
58:48back to like,
58:49you know, when I was in school, that's
58:50how we treat that's how we treated a lot
58:52of what we did. It's like days when we
58:54felt good, we were, you know, we'd be
58:55clipping along and
58:57you know, unless you were down and you
58:58know,
59:00they used to have quarter mile marks
59:01down in Gallup Park which is there's a
59:02bike path that runs along the river
59:03there and you could get a pace check in
59:05there off your off your Timex. You just
59:06measure the quarter mile. Or you back to
59:08the track and we do a lap on the track
59:10to get a pace check and that's how we
59:11knew how
59:12>> How fast, how fast were you running on
59:14easy days back then?
59:15>> Well, we we we ran pretty quick back in
59:18my day. Like, we were pretty much like
59:19by by a third mile in, we were at least
59:226 minute pace. It was usually like kind
59:25of 6:45, 6:50 and then 6 minute pace or
59:27faster the rest of the rest of the way
59:29in.
59:29>> Were you Was it Was it a pretty quiet
59:31run or were you guys chit chatting?
59:33>> Uh I was a pretty quiet runner, but I'm
59:34an introvert, so
59:36uh like they We would have guys in
59:38school that would you know they'd go for
59:40a run and they would not say any They
59:42would purposely not say anything to say
59:43how long it would take before I said
59:45something.
59:47Um
59:48so
59:48uh
59:49But some Yeah, if you're I mean, it's
59:51>> on the the podcast.
59:53>> If you're feeling good, it got chatty.
59:54It's you know
59:55uh if you weren't feeling good, then you
59:57were just hanging on.
59:59>> Yeah, for an easy run. So then
1:00:02uh
1:00:03to finish that question, is there one
1:00:04other thing that comes to mind that
1:00:06you're like, man, this is way different?
1:00:07Like, we did this so much different that
1:00:09you're kind of like, man, I I want to do
1:00:10a little bit more of that.
1:00:11>> That we want to do more of uh
1:00:13>> Yeah, something that like 20 30 years
1:00:15ago we did this all the time and I just
1:00:17feel like it's gone in the sport. And
1:00:18it'll come back. It always does. But is
1:00:20there anything that comes to mind like
1:00:21that?
1:00:22>> No, it's a good question. Um
1:00:24yeah, because you when you see the ebb
1:00:25and flow and the changes in training and
1:00:27then everything kind of
1:00:29comes back to
1:00:31you know
1:00:32again, I would say like the the building
1:00:34blocks are the building blocks. Like,
1:00:35those I don't think have ever really
1:00:37have ever really changed, right? Um you
1:00:40know maybe the emphasis on certain
1:00:42things have have changed over the years.
1:00:43Like,
1:00:44you know I know back in my day we used
1:00:46to do a lot more hill work than we do
1:00:47than we do now and I like
1:00:50I know even
1:00:51when even Coach Warhurst now to this day
1:00:54still does he does a ton more hill work
1:00:56than what I put in my programming.
1:00:59Um
1:01:00and uh yeah, I would go back and forth
1:01:02of like, hey, do have I have I cut too
1:01:04much of this out?
1:01:05Um because I always I always thrived on
1:01:07hill work myself.
1:01:09Um
1:01:11but there's there's part of me I think
1:01:12just as like
1:01:14you know this is maybe insecurity as a
1:01:16as a coach um is like well we got to we
1:01:19got to be ready. We got to be ready and
1:01:21that's like this hill works not getting
1:01:22us ready. We got to do something on the
1:01:23track to show us we're ready.
1:01:25And so I got to catch my I got to catch
1:01:27myself and still be like yo that's a
1:01:28it's a good building block. It's a good
1:01:30effort based workout where
1:01:33you know again even from a mentality of
1:01:35like
1:01:36you know of trying to get athletes to
1:01:38not always think about their watch
1:01:41where it's like let's just
1:01:42let's just run on effort and whatever
1:01:44the effort is today on this hill is
1:01:46that's that's the effort that go run
1:01:48mile effort and if it's
1:01:5055 seconds up this 300 meter hill it's
1:01:5155 it's 50 seconds it's 50 it's 50
1:01:53seconds but that's what you got on the
1:01:55that's what you got on the day
1:01:57and the the work is still going to be
1:01:58the work.
1:01:59>> Yeah.
1:02:00>> You know and so I think sometimes I
1:02:02worry like oh I've got to build their
1:02:03confidence by doing this workout on the
1:02:05track on this day and then you know you
1:02:07can you can shift away from like hey
1:02:10these are things that have really worked
1:02:11like
1:02:12I ran I ran 331 and 350 and all these
1:02:16other times and by
1:02:17doing this work
1:02:1930 years ago
1:02:20there's no reason why that can't get
1:02:22these guys doing the same thing with
1:02:23their super shoes and by carb and all
1:02:25this other all the other
1:02:27um all the other tools that they have in
1:02:28their toolbox that we didn't have you
1:02:30know so
1:02:31>> Yeah for sure.
1:02:32>> Yeah.
1:02:32>> So this the last question and I man I
1:02:35had the my
1:02:37I I wanted to ask you how this changes
1:02:38for the females on your team like the
1:02:40the males versus the females or the men
1:02:42versus the women.
1:02:43Um
1:02:44I was going to ask I mean I know you're
1:02:45you're working a little bit more with
1:02:46the men obviously but
1:02:48you know I was I was going to ask that
1:02:50my last question and you can choose to
1:02:51answer the female or the male versus
1:02:53female question or not but my last
1:02:54question is outside of a gold medal
1:02:56world record
1:02:57a national championship whatever what do
1:02:59you want to be known for in the sport?
1:03:01How do you want to be remembered? So you
1:03:02can answer one or both or neither of
1:03:04those.
1:03:05>> Yeah it's you know I've never really
1:03:07thought about
1:03:08legacy.
1:03:10Like I mean I
1:03:12you know I I feel like I was super
1:03:14fortunate as an athlete like I was
1:03:16really good from a young age um and I
1:03:18have a lot of accolades and a lot of
1:03:19records and
1:03:21I still have a lot of records to this
1:03:22day, you know, which is crazy. And now
1:03:24nobody's going to take accolades away
1:03:26from me or whatever anybody thinks of
1:03:27them, um whether they are impressed by
1:03:29them or not doesn't really bother me.
1:03:32Um
1:03:33and it's the same thing with coaching.
1:03:34Like I didn't get into it being like
1:03:37I have to I have to accomplish
1:03:40>> Mhm.
1:03:41>> you know, this many Big 10 champions or
1:03:42all Americans or national champions.
1:03:44It's like
1:03:46I
1:03:46I originally got into So I originally
1:03:48got into coaching
1:03:50when I was still competing. My my first
1:03:52wife was was coaching at Illinois and
1:03:54Florida State and I just jumped on as a
1:03:56volunteer and I
1:03:58and I started getting really excited
1:04:00just like
1:04:02watching
1:04:03kids
1:04:04I still call them kids, but watching
1:04:06these student athletes like come in with
1:04:07these dreams and goals and
1:04:09you watch a coach or you you know, you
1:04:11become a coach or you have a little bit
1:04:13of
1:04:14influence on
1:04:16helping them move
1:04:18through this pathway and accomplish
1:04:19something that
1:04:21they just put on a piece of paper or put
1:04:22in the back of their mind
1:04:24four or five years ago. And it's like
1:04:26that's still really exciting to me. Like
1:04:28and it doesn't matter whether it's
1:04:31you know, Trent Mefford and Trent
1:04:32Mefford and and Brandon Herger and Cam
1:04:35Law and John O'Reilly and Henry Dickson
1:04:37who are like
1:04:38you know, some of the best of the best.
1:04:41Or it's the other 410 guy that gets to
1:04:45402 and and
1:04:48that's their that 's their that's their
1:04:50ceiling.
1:04:51Um
1:04:52and they're still excited by that.
1:04:54Um
1:04:56>> Yeah.
1:04:57>> Yeah. So I don't I don't know. Like I
1:04:58don't I don't walk away being like
1:05:00I don't
1:05:01I don't aspire to have my name on a wall
1:05:04or anything like that. I just
1:05:05>> There it is.
1:05:06>> I just I just come to I just come to
1:05:08work and I want to
1:05:10I want athletes to just all my whole
1:05:12goal is for athletes to get the most out
1:05:14of themselves.
1:05:16And it's probably what frustrates me the
1:05:18most as a coach is when I see talented
1:05:20athletes that don't give everything.
1:05:24>> Mhm.
1:05:25Mhm.
1:05:25>> And so if anything, I just I just want
1:05:28to be remembered as a coach that like
1:05:29pushed their athletes to be the best
1:05:30that they could be.
1:05:32Um and whatever their success is, their
1:05:34success is. Like
1:05:36again, I
1:05:37hey, I love sharing in the national
1:05:40championships and I love sharing in Penn
1:05:41Relays victories and Big Ten
1:05:43championships, but
1:05:44um
1:05:46you know, I've had some pretty joyful
1:05:47moments of you know, the unknown athlete
1:05:50having a big breakthrough.
1:05:52And that gives me
1:05:54that gives me as much pleasure as
1:05:55anything. So
1:05:57doesn't doesn't matter to me how many of
1:05:58those accolades I have at the end of the
1:06:00day.
1:06:01Um hopefully hopefully hopefully the
1:06:03athletes leave here and just
1:06:05appreciate that I you know
1:06:08I gave them the best version of myself
1:06:10at that
1:06:11time period in my life, then I've done a
1:06:13good job.
1:06:14>> Yeah.
1:06:15Yeah.
1:06:16I mean one one guy that comes to mind is
1:06:18Miles, you know, seeing obviously he was
1:06:20super talented in high school. I mean I
1:06:22think what it was high school PR was
1:06:23like 46 47
1:06:25>> Aaron 46.25
1:06:27yeah.
1:06:28>> Yeah, he's like
1:06:30super fast.
1:06:31>> Yeah.
1:06:31>> So
1:06:32and then I think he got banged up a
1:06:33little and then seeing him come back and
1:06:35compete at the highest stage was like
1:06:37it was pretty it was pretty fun to
1:06:38watch. Um that was just like one person
1:06:41that came to mind.
1:06:41>> Yeah, no, he's a he's a great one cuz
1:06:43he's one he's just like he's a great
1:06:45person. Like he just started med school
1:06:47at Howard this this
1:06:49uh summer. You know, he's
1:06:51he's training with the Under Armour
1:06:53group out in Baltimore now as well. So
1:06:54he's going to try and do both of these.
1:06:56Um but yeah, you know, he's obviously
1:06:58like really heralded high school high
1:07:00school kid. Um we're super excited to
1:07:02get him and you know
1:07:04makes makes NCAAs as a true freshman.
1:07:07And then sophomore year has this like
1:07:09horrific injury that you know, basically
1:07:12we just we had to rebuild you know, both
1:07:14we just had to rebuild his body.
1:07:16And then we had to almost teach him how
1:07:18to run again. And that that was like a
1:07:20two and a half three year project
1:07:23um where you know, I think there were
1:07:24times for both of us were like, man, are
1:07:26we ever are we going to be able to
1:07:28really see like the true potential?
1:07:31And then finally when it all started to
1:07:33come together in his fifth year, you
1:07:35know, and
1:07:36>> It was awesome.
1:07:37>> Yeah, just awesome. And it's like that's
1:07:38what you
1:07:40you know, for
1:07:41and again, it's just at the end of the
1:07:42day he's a better person than he is
1:07:44athlete and he's a great athlete.
1:07:46Um and you want to see good things
1:07:47happen to good people. And so it was
1:07:49like the amount of people when he broke
1:07:51the collegiate record indoors in the 600
1:07:53at Big 10s like
1:07:54the amount of people that were in tears
1:07:56on the sideline from our team just like
1:07:59I mean, it was amazing. It just shows
1:08:00you like,
1:08:01you know, the impact he had on
1:08:03the people around him.
1:08:05And that ultimately is more important
1:08:06than any of the athletic accolades.
1:08:09>> Yeah, yeah.
1:08:11I mean, from everything I can tell from
1:08:13the culture and from
1:08:15the culture of your team and talking
1:08:16with the athletes that you have
1:08:18I I've had the privilege of talking with
1:08:19a lot of them.
1:08:20You know,
1:08:22I don't know what you're doing and I I
1:08:24think I do based on talking with you
1:08:25now, but the culture of your team is
1:08:27among the strongest that I've seen. Like
1:08:29there is a sense of confidence and
1:08:31rapport and competitive friendly
1:08:33competitiveness where, you know, these
1:08:35guys want to beat each other. I think um
1:08:37I think Herger and Dixon had some
1:08:39funny banter where they're like, yo, I'm
1:08:40going to be the fastest freshman ever or
1:08:42whatever and uh
1:08:44you know, that kind of environment it it
1:08:47breeds success and it definitely shows.
1:08:49And so I'm really excited to see how you
1:08:51guys perform in indoors. You head into
1:08:52outdoors. You've got a super deep team
1:08:55in the middle. I mean,
1:08:57you you lost Miles obviously, but you
1:08:59have so many returners where it 's like,
1:09:01holy moly, you guys are going to be
1:09:03fast. So I'm really excited.
1:09:05>> super excited. Yeah, we're we're really
1:09:06fortunate. Like, you know, Miles is the
1:09:08only one we and you know, that we lose
1:09:11um
1:09:12out of that out of that group and that
1:09:13whole group is back next year as well.
1:09:15>> I know. It's Oh my gosh.
1:09:17>> just and and and you know, it's not
1:09:19lost. I mean, like we're super we're
1:09:21really fortunate, right? Like that
1:09:23it's a special group of athletes that
1:09:24they don't you know, groups like that
1:09:26don't come around all the time.
1:09:28>> Well, I want to give you your your
1:09:29flowers though, because when you
1:09:30recruited them, they weren't that. I
1:09:32mean, Camden Law was
1:09:33literally chasing his teammates during
1:09:36200 meter reps. Uh, Henry was what, a
1:09:38410 miler? I I don't know Trent's times.
1:09:40I know he was fast obviously. Uh, I
1:09:42don't know Herger's, John O'Reilly's. I
1:09:44don't know their times off the top of my
1:09:45head, but like a lot of these guys just
1:09:47developed. So yeah, you'd love to sit
1:09:49there and be like,
1:09:50oh, there's a special group, but
1:09:52>> you know, all those guys were, you know,
1:09:54um, again they're maybe not your not
1:09:57true developmental, but they were I mean
1:09:58they were
1:09:59they were definitely all on that kind of
1:10:01more in the development spectrum, you
1:10:03know.
1:10:03>> They weren't running sub four in high
1:10:05school.
1:10:05>> Yeah, Cam was 151 basically didn't run
1:10:07his whole senior year, you know, for a
1:10:09number number of issues. Um, you know,
1:10:12Jano Jano was 153
1:10:15in high school. He was 146 now. You
1:10:18know, Henry was 410 151 by the end of
1:10:20his senior year, but when we when we
1:10:22signed him, you know, Cam
1:10:24you know, we like four
1:10:27>> 13 414
1:10:29>> and 152 or 153. Trent was 413 151, but
1:10:33he won a couple state meets, you know.
1:10:35Uh, Herger was the most heralded out of
1:10:37the group. He'd run, you know, 407 in
1:10:39senior year and one
1:10:4149 I believe.
1:10:43Uh,
1:10:44>> Uh, you you know that's potential. You
1:10:45see that. That's
1:10:46>> Well, the thing about you know, the
1:10:48thing about Herger you know, I'm I know
1:10:49I'm going long, but the thing about
1:10:51Herger Herger was a little bit under the
1:10:52radar. You know, one he's in he's in
1:10:54Michigan which Michigan you know, when
1:10:56you look at it Michigan has great
1:10:57athletes, but a lot of times they don't
1:10:59kind of blossom until their senior year
1:11:01a lot of times.
1:11:02Um, so we see them a lot and we see what
1:11:04we think is potential.
1:11:06Um, you could definitely see like he
1:11:08moved really well, super smooth. Um,
1:11:12but he was like his high school
1:11:13Northville at the time was like had one
1:11:16of the best four by eights in the
1:11:17country. Like they
1:11:18won New Balance
1:11:19either his junior or senior or maybe
1:11:21maybe both years.
1:11:22But you know, he was always he was
1:11:24anchoring those relays every year and
1:11:26you could just see like when you got a
1:11:27baton on his hand and he was chasing
1:11:29guys like different different athlete.
1:11:33Um and that's the thing where it's like
1:11:35those intangibles where
1:11:37you know yeah the times the times got
1:11:40him on our radar and we started calling
1:11:42him but it was like the intangibles were
1:11:44like
1:11:45we need to have this guy here cuz one he
1:11:47looks like a he looks and he and
1:11:49everything his coaches tell us he's a
1:11:50great team guy
1:11:52and both as a as a person
1:11:55but when he when he competes he just
1:11:57tries to win. So it doesn't matter
1:11:59whether it's a 4:15 race or a 4:05 race
1:12:02he's trying to he's going to try and win
1:12:04that race and that's what we that's what
1:12:06we want to see
1:12:08is like do you do you love to win
1:12:11not just not just run fast.
1:12:13Cuz like all kinds of people can run
1:12:14fast but can you win?
1:12:16>> Mm.
1:12:17Gives me chills. I was never that fast
1:12:19but I was always a sit and kick or as as
1:12:22Hubie as I think I'm going to call him
1:12:23from now on as Hugh Baker likes to say
1:12:26sit and fade at this point in my career.
1:12:28[laughter]
1:12:29We sit and fade. Um but anyways coach
1:12:33this has been a blast. Thank you so much
1:12:34for coming on. I appreciate it and
1:12:36Justin Rinaldi said it himself he's like
1:12:37I just take everything that I like from
1:12:39other people and I apply it.
1:12:41It's cool to see because your athletes
1:12:42are benefiting and and the culture's
1:12:44great so thanks for all you're doing for
1:12:46the sport genuinely it's it's truly
1:12:47awesome to see and I really appreciate
1:12:49you coming on the pod. Is there anything
1:12:50you want to leave with the people with
1:12:51before I let you go?
1:12:52>> Nothing nothing in nothing in particular
1:12:54just uh you know like I said we're super
1:12:56fortunate we uh we recognize that and uh
1:12:59you know hopefully we can just keep
1:13:00putting out some good exciting
1:13:01performances for everybody and just keep
1:13:04the tradition going cuz we got a good we
1:13:05got a great tradition. Um I'm proud to
1:13:07be a part of it and uh it's exciting to
1:13:09be a Michigan Wolverine for sure.
1:13:11>> Yeah to say the least. Well thank you
1:13:13guys for listening. If you haven't done
1:13:14so already subscribe to our podcast
1:13:16leave us a five star review leave us uh
1:13:18some comments as well if you guys find
1:13:19it helpful. Uh and one more thing if you
1:13:21ever have questions that you want us to
1:13:23answer on the podcast you can email me
1:13:25them or you can drop them to my DMs
1:13:27dr_evans_running
1:13:28on Instagram. Thanks for listening and
1:13:31we hope to see you back.

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