Kenneth Lay - Progress is Rarely Linear — Transcript

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1. 0:06Welcome to American Narratives, where we
2. 0:08talk about the bold, unexpected, and
3. 0:10deeply human side of career change. I'm
4. 0:12Maryanne Pñena.
5. 0:13>> And I'm Joe Fraudum. This season, we're
6. 0:15doing something a little different.
7. 0:17We're hitting pause on the linear
8. 0:18success story and hitting play on the
9. 0:21pivot.
10. 0:21>> Because let's be honest, life rarely
11. 0:23goes according to plan. Sometimes we
12. 0:25choose change and sometimes change
13. 0:27chooses us. But either way, those
14. 0:29turning points shape who we are and how
15. 0:31we lead.
16. 0:32>> American Narratives was created by CMP
17. 0:34to share real stories of identity,
18. 0:36resilience, and leadership. And this
19. 0:38season, we're zooming in on the moments
20. 0:40when people pivot the script.
21. 0:42>> You'll hear from leaders, executives,
22. 0:44change makers, and everyday people
23. 0:46who've reinvented their careers and
24. 0:48themselves with clarity, courage, and a
25. 0:50whole lot of honesty. So, if you're in
26. 0:52the middle of a change, considering one,
27. 0:54or just curious how people bounce
28. 0:56forward, not back, you're in the right
29. 0:58place.
30. 0:58>> Let's get into it. This is American
31. 1:00Narratives season 4.
32. 1:04>> Welcome to American Narratives. I'm
33. 1:05Marian Pñena.
34. 1:06>> And I'm Joe Frachum. And today we have
35. 1:08Ken Lay. Ken, welcome.
36. 1:10>> Welcome, Ken.
37. 1:11>> Thank you very much. Glad to be here.
38. 1:13You know, there's uh Ken Lelay could be
39. 1:15an infamous misname, but it's maybe not
40. 1:17the Ken Lay you think it is, and we'll
41. 1:18get into that a little bit later. But
42. 1:20Ken is someone that we've known for
43. 1:22gosh, a good year. Uh we've done some
44. 1:24work with Ken. Have come to really
45. 1:26respect Ken, both his pedigree, his
46. 1:28experience, and what he's doing now. And
47. 1:30I know that you're all going to really
48. 1:32learn a lot and gain a lot from his
49. 1:34story and his experiences today. So,
50. 1:35thank you again, Ken, for joining us.
51. 1:38And let's let me give you a little
52. 1:39background on Ken. Um Kent Lei is the
53. 1:42president and founder of perspective
54. 1:44always matters where he helps seuite and
55. 1:47emerging leaders navigate complexity
56. 1:49build resilience and deliver results
57. 1:51with 30 plus years in senior roles at
58. 1:53Fortune 100 companies including EVP CIO
59. 1:56at Citizens Bank leadership posts at
60. 1:58Bank of America and JP Morgan Chase and
61. 2:01earlier executive roles at IBM. Chem
62. 2:03blends organizational psychology with
63. 2:05hardearned uh hands-on operating
64. 2:08experience. He holds an MA in social and
65. 2:10organizational psychology from Colombia
66. 2:12and a BBA in finance from Notre Dame. As
67. 2:16managing partner at the Center for
68. 2:17Resilience, he develops
69. 2:18neuroscienceinformed solutions to
70. 2:21counter stress and burnout.
71. 2:23>> Wow, that's a that's a mouthful and a
72. 2:25lot to lot to absorb right now. I love
73. 2:27the empiricism of Yeah, it's pretty cool
74. 2:29stuff. So,
75. 2:30>> well, let's dive in.
76. 2:32>> Well, qu a few quick questions for you,
77. 2:35Ken, just to get to know you a little
78. 2:36bit better. So tell us uh what's your
79. 2:39favorite music or band?
80. 2:42>> Music or band? So
81. 2:44>> I I would say currently it would be uh
82. 2:48Kirk Wham. Um
83. 2:52anything from Earth, Wind, and Fire. And
84. 2:55going back, I would say my my from my
85. 2:58youth, Cannonball, Adalie, and Stan Gats
86. 3:00and Herby Man and Marvin Gay and the
87. 3:03Temptations.
88. 3:04>> I love it. Great range there. Okay, tell
89. 3:07us your favorite movie if you have one.
90. 3:10>> It's hard to pick one. I'd have to pick
91. 3:12three.
92. 3:13>> Okay.
93. 3:14>> Casablanca,
94. 3:16>> the Usual Suspects, and Pulp Fiction.
95. 3:19>> Boy, talk about a range.
96. 3:20>> I know.
97. 3:21>> Casablanca to Pulp Fiction. All pretty
98. 3:24iconic and for different reasons kind of
99. 3:27interesting. So, that
100. 3:28>> Yeah,
101. 3:28>> maybe a little worrisome or interesting.
102. 3:30I'm not quite sure which one.
103. 3:31>> Well, we we'll debrief that later. How
104. 3:32about your favorite book or author?
105. 3:35um books and authors. So, current well
106. 3:40past author James Baldwin, current
107. 3:43author Tanahesi Coats, uh also Howard
108. 3:46Gardner, and um I'd probably also say
109. 3:52um
110. 3:54uh oh, any Robert Lulham, any of the old
111. 3:56Robert Ledham mystery, spy books,
112. 4:00novels.
113. 4:01>> Love it. So, take me back as a teenager.
114. 4:05Um, what was your first job?
115. 4:08>> Funny. My first job was as a family
116. 4:10liaison when Project Head Start was just
117. 4:13beginning.
118. 4:16Um, um, while I was a teenager, I was
119. 4:18kind of a a um
120. 4:21counselor for a summer summer program.
121. 4:24>> Okay. After that, when I got to college,
122. 4:26I was um a a project family liaison,
123. 4:29which basically was a family social
124. 4:31worker for uh kids who were in the Head
125. 4:33Start program.
126. 4:35>> I love that.
127. 4:36>> That goes well.
128. 4:37>> That is cool. So, let's get into a
129. 4:40little bit more of your on your personal
130. 4:41narrative. Tell us a little bit more
131. 4:43about where did you grow up, where you
132. 4:45from, and who were the influential
133. 4:47people in your formative years.
134. 4:50>> Okay. So, I grew up in uh Brooklyn, New
135. 4:52York.
136. 4:54Um, I went to I went through 16 years of
137. 4:57Catholic education.
138. 4:59I was an alter boy, a boy scout, played
139. 5:03a lot of street games, a lot of
140. 5:05basketball.
141. 5:06Um, key influences were my parents for
142. 5:10sure. Both my parents were um, tough but
143. 5:14fair. Um, always talked about the
144. 5:18importance of character and integrity.
145. 5:20So certainly my parents, my scout leader
146. 5:23was a former Marine.
147. 5:26>> So some of my contemporaries always
148. 5:27credited Don with um with some of our
149. 5:30growth. Um and through school, I had
150. 5:32some really tough teachers which was
151. 5:34turned out to be really really good. Um
152. 5:36so in my formative years, I think all of
153. 5:38that kind of shaped me. Growing up in
154. 5:40the city, um from what I understand
155. 5:43later, I grew up in a pretty tough
156. 5:45neighborhood. I didn't realize it at the
157. 5:47time because you're in it, but you learn
158. 5:50how to navigate.
159. 5:52>> You know, that that might explain Notre
160. 5:54Dame a little bit later in in your
161. 5:56educational experience. So,
162. 5:57>> that's right.
163. 5:58>> Good.
164. 5:59>> Oh, good. Well, all right. So, formative
165. 6:01years in Brooklyn and um you know, gives
166. 6:04us a little bit of a flavor of who you
167. 6:06are and those former viewers are so dang
168. 6:07important and I'm sure they still are
169. 6:09alive with you today even through your
170. 6:11growth and variety of experiences. Let's
171. 6:14start kind of in the college years, you
172. 6:16know, what where did you go to college?
173. 6:18Uh, Colombia, I believe, but why
174. 6:20Colombia? Why did you major and what you
175. 6:22majored? And start walking us through
176. 6:24your thought process from an education
177. 6:26standpoint.
178. 6:27>> So, Colombia didn't come until much much
179. 6:29later. I went undergrad to Notre Dame
180. 6:32and um I went there sight unseen because
181. 6:35we couldn't afford to take trips to
182. 6:37visit schools um and it had a good
183. 6:40engineering school um and so that's
184. 6:42where I wound up going. Um I had looked
185. 6:46at three schools, Villanova, Colombia,
186. 6:48and Notre Dame. Um Villanova, obviously
187. 6:52Columbia is in the city. Um, Illinois
188. 6:55wasn't that far away, but I chose to go
189. 6:56to Not Notre Dame because it was a good
190. 6:58school and it had a good engineering
191. 7:00school.
192. 7:01>> And so, did you graduate in engineering
193. 7:03then or kind of what was what was your
194. 7:05studies in and what what you ultimately
195. 7:06graduated in?
196. 7:08>> So, I found out once I got there, I
197. 7:10found out that I really didn't like
198. 7:11mechanical engineering
199. 7:15and so I pivoted to the business school
200. 7:17and ended up majoring in finance and
201. 7:20then never really had a finance job.
202. 7:23That happens
203. 7:24>> to a lot of us. Yeah.
204. 7:25>> Yeah. To a lot of us. You know, it's I a
205. 7:26quick sidlight. I I was presenting in
206. 7:28front of a group of 20 people. All have
207. 7:30been out of college at least 20 years uh
208. 7:33a couple of years ago and I asked them
209. 7:34all how many of you are in a role you
210. 7:36need even existed when you were in
211. 7:38college and nobody put their hand up,
212. 7:40right? So yeah, you're the fact that we
213. 7:42you didn't apply your degree is you're
214. 7:44in good company. A lot of us can
215. 7:46absolutely say the same thing.
216. 7:48>> So take okay, you got a finance degree
217. 7:50Notre Dame terrific school. uh what
218. 7:53happened where was where was your first
219. 7:55kind of post notreame role and take us
220. 7:58through that.
221. 7:58>> So my first job was at IBM.
222. 8:01Um interesting story there because um I
223. 8:06left ND after my junior year because I
224. 8:08had to go to work. I went went back two
225. 8:11years later and finished, but I had to
226. 8:13go to work. And so they were only hiring
227. 8:15college graduates and I hadn't graduated
228. 8:17yet.
229. 8:19And um so I had to talk my way into the
230. 8:20door and talk my way into getting
231. 8:22interviewed, which I was able to do. And
232. 8:24they gave me a bunch of tests. And they
233. 8:25said, "You really need to go back to
234. 8:27school." I said, "Well, I can't. I need
235. 8:28a job." They said, "Well, what do you
236. 8:30want to do?" I said, "What do you got?"
237. 8:33So they said, "Well, you test really
238. 8:34well for this programming stuff. You
239. 8:36ever think of programming?" I said,
240. 8:38"Well, no, but I'll give it a shot." And
241. 8:40that's how it all started. not elegant,
242. 8:43not something I'd recommend for somebody
243. 8:44coming out of school, but you know, at
244. 8:46the at the point in time, you know, you
245. 8:48do what you got to do.
246. 8:50>> Well, and it's very pragmatic, right?
247. 8:52And it sounds like it was assessment
248. 8:53driven. So IBM was always quite
249. 8:55contemporary in their talent practices.
250. 8:58>> Uh, did you think their assessments were
251. 8:59valid? I mean, how did did you take the
252. 9:01program? How did that go for you?
253. 9:03>> Um, actually their um their testing at
254. 9:06the time was very rigorous. Um and I did
255. 9:09really really well which is what that
256. 9:11that's why they encouraged me to go back
257. 9:13and finish. Um and it and the
258. 9:16programming the software development
259. 9:17worked out really well. I loved it. it
260. 9:19was really about problem solving and
261. 9:22that was the facet of engineering that I
262. 9:24really liked how to you know how to find
263. 9:26problems and how to solve them and
264. 9:29that's what really propelled me and um
265. 9:31and so I spent the first five years as a
266. 9:34software developer uh working on
267. 9:36automating the back offices of brokerage
268. 9:39companies which at the time were all um
269. 9:42paper intensive
270. 9:44and so we automated the securities
271. 9:46matching process we automated the uh the
272. 9:49broker's desks and so it was really a
273. 9:51big back office um automation process
274. 9:54and I was doing some of the programming
275. 9:56for that which was very very
276. 9:58interesting. So, so a programmer around
277. 10:01some seinal work at a very a big
278. 10:03inflection point in the finance
279. 10:04industry, you know, already I can see
280. 10:06how that probably served you well as you
281. 10:08went forward and some of the roles you
282. 10:09had. But how long were you at IBM before
283. 10:12and did you kind of go to school, go
284. 10:14back to IBM or kind of how did that work
285. 10:16as far as finishing your undergrad
286. 10:18education in IBM? So I went back a
287. 10:20couple years later um finished and um so
288. 10:24the first five years I was software
289. 10:25developer and then I uh then I went to
290. 10:28my first pivot and that's when I moved
291. 10:30over into the sales side
292. 10:32>> which was pivot huge
293. 10:34>> pivot very uncommon at the time.
294. 10:37>> So and this was somewhere in your late
295. 10:3920s I presume right when you did this
296. 10:41pivot
297. 10:42>> this was 25.
298. 10:45>> Yeah. So, a lot of our listeners are
299. 10:48kind of thinking through where do I go
300. 10:50from now that are roughly in that age
301. 10:52range. Walk us through that. Can you
302. 10:54dissect that pivot for us? What drove
303. 10:57it? What was the risk? How'd you
304. 10:59overcome it? And what did you learn as
305. 11:01far as making pivots at that point in
306. 11:03your career?
307. 11:04>> So, it was interesting. Um, I found out
308. 11:08how much the some of the clients were
309. 11:10going to pay for this stuff I was
310. 11:12writing with a whole bunch of other
311. 11:13people. And I said, 'Well, I was amazed
312. 11:16that people were spending that kind of
313. 11:18money. And I wondered h how they got to
314. 11:21this point of determining what they
315. 11:23needed and why they needed it and why
316. 11:25they were willing to pay so much for it.
317. 11:27And when I asked a few people about it,
318. 11:29they said, "Well, that's an IBM salesman
319. 11:31does that and he's over there and you'll
320. 11:34never get there because you're a techie
321. 11:35guy and techie guys don't do well in
322. 11:37sales." So, I talked to a few more
323. 11:41people and some of my managers said,
324. 11:43"You know, as a matter of fact, I think
325. 11:45you'd be I think you'd be great at it.
326. 11:47You might want to give it a shot." So, I
327. 11:50talked to a few more people and did some
328. 11:51interviews and and um they hired me. And
329. 11:55u I had a really successful sales career
330. 11:59and I loved it because it was solving
331. 12:02problems. It was identifying issues that
332. 12:05customers had and developing solutions
333. 12:08that would help solve their business
334. 12:09problems and um and doing it using
335. 12:12technology.
336. 12:14>> Thoroughly enjoyed it.
337. 12:15>> So I'm going to echo a few things I
338. 12:18heard you say, you can agree or disagree
339. 12:20just that I think are real key success
340. 12:22factors in making the inevitable pivots
341. 12:24in our career. One is uh you didn't
342. 12:27listen to other people, the naysayers,
343. 12:29right? There was some people that said
344. 12:31uh had this old orthodoxy that it does
345. 12:34not make sales. So scratch them. But you
346. 12:37also didn't make an impetuous decision.
347. 12:39You went off and talked to people,
348. 12:40people you respected, people who knew
349. 12:42the role. And third, you knew yourself
350. 12:44well enough to know that you like
351. 12:46problem solving. You like the analytical
352. 12:48aspects of this. So it's not that's not
353. 12:50confined to a function. It's a skill set
354. 12:52you can use across functions. and the
355. 12:54degree to which you're allowed to use
356. 12:55that skill set, you'll probably be
357. 12:57successful and probably enjoy the work.
358. 12:59Do you think those are accurate
359. 13:00observations?
360. 13:01>> Oh, yeah. And I'm um my parents would
361. 13:04would have told you that I'm pretty
362. 13:06hard-headed. Um and I remember in when I
363. 13:10was in high school, I went to the
364. 13:12guidance counselor and said, "Well, I
365. 13:13was going to apply what schools I was
366. 13:15going to apply to." And he said, "Well,
367. 13:17you probably shouldn't apply to Notre
368. 13:18Dame." I said, "Why not?" So, it's a
369. 13:20tough school and I don't want you to be
370. 13:21disappointed.
371. 13:23You know, setting those expectations
372. 13:24really low. So, that just re reinforced
373. 13:27my desire to go apply.
374. 13:30And um I I remember talking to him in
375. 13:35passing after graduation um when he
376. 13:37said, "So, where you going?" He said,
377. 13:39"Not just kept going."
378. 13:42>> I love it.
379. 13:42>> I love that.
380. 13:44>> So, I when I get my mind set to
381. 13:46something, I kind of go ahead and do it.
382. 13:49and you want to prove people wrong.
383. 13:51There's a little bit of a competitive
384. 13:52juice there. It sounds like
385. 13:53>> also I think part of that was um when I
386. 13:57grew up I was a really little guy.
387. 13:59Really, really little guy. I was a in
388. 14:01the eighth grade I was a third smallest
389. 14:03kid in my class.
390. 14:04>> All right.
391. 14:05>> And so growing up small in a tough
392. 14:07neighborhood, you kind of learn some
393. 14:10skills that uh help you later in life,
394. 14:13like being steadfast and um and putting
395. 14:16your nose down.
396. 14:18I'm much I grew in late in high school.
397. 14:20Now I'm I'm 6'4, you know, 220. A lot
398. 14:24different than I was back in the ninth
399. 14:26grade. When I was ninth grade, I was 5
400. 14:28foot 199 pounds.
401. 14:30>> Oh, there you go.
402. 14:32>> So they didn't have you playing on the
403. 14:33line if they had a football team. I'd
404. 14:35take it. No. So that that was not
405. 14:36happening.
406. 14:37>> No, but it was formative, right? So you
407. 14:39had to learn to navigate the social mu
408. 14:41and dynamics probably in ways that have
409. 14:43served you well because organizations
410. 14:45are people at the end of the day.
411. 14:46relationships and grit and determination
412. 14:48and vision. So you sales career. So you
413. 14:52you you built a great quote sales
414. 14:54career. Talk walk us through that kind
415. 14:56of at a high level. IBM did you go kind
416. 15:00of where did you go kind of post IBM?
417. 15:03>> So IBM was like 30 years. Um so my sales
418. 15:08development I was salesman sales manager
419. 15:11branch manager in Rhode Island. Um I ran
420. 15:14sales training at IBM in Atlanta. Uh
421. 15:17then I was um an administrative
422. 15:19assistant to a divisional president in
423. 15:21Atlanta. Then I was regional manager.
424. 15:24Then I was an industry director. Then I
425. 15:25went to corporate I was the head of um
426. 15:29uh internal external education which was
427. 15:31all uh internal and external education
428. 15:35for IBM globally. and I was also um
429. 15:39responsible for IBM's corporate social
430. 15:41responsibility for education which
431. 15:43included K to2 and universities.
432. 15:46>> Then I became um one of the first
433. 15:49persons uh named president of one of
434. 15:52IBM's first three subsidiaries.
435. 15:54Um, then I did something else and then
436. 15:56it was then it was 30 years and I said
437. 15:59to myself, do I stick around another 20
438. 16:02years and get a gold watch or do I go
439. 16:05see if I can do something on the
440. 16:06outside?
441. 16:08And I said, and just so happened, I
442. 16:10believe in synchronicity. As I was
443. 16:13thinking about that, I got a call from
444. 16:15the head of HR of a bank who said, "Hey,
445. 16:18I I'm supposed to talk to you." I said,
446. 16:19"Why?" He said, "Well, I was speaking
447. 16:21with somebody. we have this problem over
448. 16:23here that we're trying to solve and they
449. 16:25said I should go find you. So that's how
450. 16:28that discussion started.
451. 16:31So you got recruited out
452. 16:33>> and and it was again someone you knew in
453. 16:36your network made a reference and that's
454. 16:38so much you know we work with a lot of
455. 16:40executives on transition that network
456. 16:42you kept it alive enough to actually
457. 16:44surface some interesting opportunities
458. 16:46it sounds like even though you spent big
459. 16:48part of your career in one big
460. 16:49organization it's fascinating tell us
461. 16:52about that pivot outside I 30 years at
462. 16:54IBM that could be whiplash to actually
463. 16:57leave at that point but you had the guts
464. 16:58to do it So dissect that for us.
465. 17:01>> So one of the things that we used to
466. 17:03talk about was people who succeed or
467. 17:06fail when they leave IBM. And one of the
468. 17:08things the critical thing that that
469. 17:11happened when people failed was they
470. 17:13tried to bring all of the IBM culture
471. 17:15with them. And the IBM culture is
472. 17:17indigenous to IBM. It's not going to
473. 17:20work everywhere. And so you have to
474. 17:22figure out what pieces make sense and
475. 17:25what pieces do you leave behind. Um,
476. 17:28so when I made the when I made the jump,
477. 17:30which I thought was exciting because the
478. 17:32the head of HR said, "Look, we have a a
479. 17:34business issue um that we need to get
480. 17:37solved and we think we need somebody
481. 17:39from the outside to do it." And the
482. 17:41issue was they had a business that had
483. 17:44um flat growth and the projected future
484. 17:47was negative -2% for the next five
485. 17:49years. They said, "You think you can do
486. 17:52that?" And of course, you know, what am
487. 17:55I going to say, right? Yeah.
488. 17:57>> I said, "I love it. Absolutely. Let me
489. 17:59do this." And we ended up over the five
490. 18:02years um having doubledigit growth um
491. 18:05each year.
492. 18:06>> Wow. Wow. Wow. And and so was it the
493. 18:11attraction of a new challenge, knowing
494. 18:14yourself that it's a new problem, the
495. 18:15competitive juices that were alive in
496. 18:18your early 20s are still alive a little
497. 18:20later in your life? Uh it's interesting.
498. 18:23Did you second guess yourself before
499. 18:24making the move or were you just ready
500. 18:26to hop?
501. 18:28>> So, you know, I' I've said for years
502. 18:30there's a reason why the windshield is
503. 18:32the size it is and the rearview mirror
504. 18:34is the size it is.
505. 18:38>> I love that one. I'm going to have to
506. 18:39take it.
507. 18:39>> Yeah, I may I may plagiarize that one.
508. 18:41Me, us, and a lot of our listeners
509. 18:42actually. That's a pretty good one.
510. 18:45>> So, no, there was no um no misgivings at
511. 18:48all. It was full steam ahead.
512. 18:50>> All right. So you you pivoted out there.
513. 18:53You were excited about the opportunity.
514. 18:56Um glad you did it. It sounds like
515. 18:58because I mean just you know if you're
516. 19:00in a stagnant even declining market to
517. 19:02grow double digits that's a whole
518. 19:04episode in and of itself. We won't dive
519. 19:06into that because this is about careers,
520. 19:08>> right?
521. 19:08>> Uh but walk us after that. What was your
522. 19:10next pivot? Because I know at one point
523. 19:12you worked in a public sector role.
524. 19:15>> So at um at Chase that was my first role
525. 19:19in that business. Um then I moved over
526. 19:21to the um technology side. I kept going
527. 19:24back and forth between business roles
528. 19:26and technology roles. I was the head of
529. 19:29project management and network services
530. 19:30globally. So I had about a thousand
531. 19:33project managers spread from London to
532. 19:35Hong Kong. Um um and then I went and did
533. 19:39a consumer products job. I was head of
534. 19:42one of consumer products businesses uh
535. 19:44for a couple years. Um and then I went
536. 19:47to BFA. I had a technology job uh
537. 19:51consumer infrastructure banking
538. 19:53everything that tied together the ATMs
539. 19:56contact centers and branches techn
540. 19:58technologically that was my thing then I
541. 20:01was the head of market research was
542. 20:03again which was another big shift
543. 20:05because I had never done market research
544. 20:06before very interesting job had about a
545. 20:10100 PhDs in my organization I learned a
546. 20:13lot um and we did some good things and
547. 20:15then
548. 20:16um one Saturday morning, I got a call
549. 20:21from somebody who said, um, this was in
550. 20:232008 after the election.
551. 20:26Said, uh, um, could you be around this
552. 20:28afternoon to talk to the governor elect?
553. 20:31I said, this is Ken Lay. I don't know
554. 20:33who you're trying to talk to.
555. 20:36You're you're the one you you gonna be
556. 20:39around this afternoon? I said, sure,
557. 20:40I'll be around. So, the governor-elect
558. 20:42called and said, um, asked me if I would
559. 20:45be willing to be the secretary of
560. 20:46revenue for North Carolina. Um,
561. 20:50long story short, it turns out the, um,
562. 20:53the their their group um, the Finders
563. 20:59group found me. Um, somehow my reput
564. 21:02reputation and expertise preceded and
565. 21:06uh, she thought I'd be perfect for that
566. 21:08role running a key agency for the state
567. 21:10of North Carolina. And um, she also said
568. 21:14they told me, my search committee told
569. 21:16me that if if they called, you'd say no,
570. 21:19but the best chance was if I called.
571. 21:22And so she called. And you know, how do
572. 21:25you turn that down, right?
573. 21:27>> American Narratives is brought to you by
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597. 22:11>> Hope to see you soon.
598. 22:14>> Well, let me ask because you've been an
599. 22:16executive in private industry.
600. 22:20Uh I'm sure it doesn't pay as well.
601. 22:23That's for sure. Why? Why did you say
602. 22:26yes?
603. 22:27Uh because because you could easily have
604. 22:29said no. Who needs the headache, less
605. 22:31money, the pressure, the stress?
606. 22:33>> That was a pivot. Was it based on legacy
607. 22:36impact? Kind of dissect that pivot for
608. 22:38us.
609. 22:40>> Um so yes, she said, "Look, I can't pay
610. 22:42you what you probably make in the
611. 22:44private sector," which was clearly true.
612. 22:46Clearly true. Um by a by a wide margin,
613. 22:50but I've always been a proponent for
614. 22:52giving back. Um, I have given back in
615. 22:56boards. I was a volunteer with the New
616. 22:58York City school system, a high school
617. 23:00dropout prevention program. I would go
618. 23:03around and talk to the 10 worst school
619. 23:0610 worst high schools in the city. I
620. 23:08talked to the faculty and the students.
621. 23:10I've always been very very community-
622. 23:12based um because I think it's it's the
623. 23:16right thing to do. And um um the country
624. 23:19was in a ditch. North Carolina was in a
625. 23:22ditch
626. 23:23>> and the government asked me to help. So,
627. 23:25how are you going to say no? Um um I
628. 23:29think that's something it's your civic
629. 23:31duty to do what you can to help. And so
630. 23:34I figured, well, I I'll give this a shot
631. 23:36and, you know, see what I can do to
632. 23:37help. It's my form of giving back. And
633. 23:39when when they when people call and they
634. 23:42ask you for help, there's only for me
635. 23:44there's only one answer. Well, and if
636. 23:47for those younger listeners, that was a
637. 23:50really stressful time. 2008, you know,
638. 23:52crash based on mortgages and there's a
639. 23:55whole, you know, there's a whole
640. 23:57ecosystem there that just fell apart
641. 23:59>> and books and thesises and dissertations
642. 24:02have been written on it. You couldn't
643. 24:03have found a more stressful time to move
644. 24:05into a role like that at a state level,
645. 24:07at a substantial state at that North
646. 24:09Carolina. Um, so that how long were you
647. 24:13there in that role?
648. 24:14>> Couple years. Um, and North Carolina was
649. 24:17the eighth largest state in terms of
650. 24:20revenue. And I was responsible for
651. 24:22bringing in 26.9 billion in revenue a
652. 24:25year at a time when people don't realize
653. 24:29how bad the economy was and how close to
654. 24:32the brink the country was and a lot of
655. 24:35the states were. Um, we were really on
656. 24:38the edge. We were on the edge of a
657. 24:39cliff.
658. 24:41>> Yeah.
659. 24:42>> Yeah. And um yeah, we really were. You
660. 24:45know, it's funny and and the retrospect
661. 24:46of that is too big to fail and there's
662. 24:49banking and my guess is given your
663. 24:51experience both in problem solving,
664. 24:53banking at the highest level, different
665. 24:55venues and types of banks that obviously
666. 24:58had to be saved and go through a
667. 24:59process, you were probably the perfect
668. 25:01profile for that at the time. Um even
669. 25:04though it was your first public service
670. 25:06job. How long were you in that role for?
671. 25:09>> Uh two years.
672. 25:10>> Okay.
673. 25:11>> Two years. And um interesting the uh
674. 25:13early on I got called by the finance
675. 25:16committee to come over to the
676. 25:17legislature and they wanted to talk to
677. 25:19me and they asked a question. They said
678. 25:21look we're in a ditch that these are
679. 25:24their words. We're in a ditch. How much
680. 25:26money can you raise without pissing off
681. 25:29the taxpayers?
682. 25:32So I you know I ballparked a number. I
683. 25:36went back to the office and they said,
684. 25:38"So I hope they said we hope you didn't
685. 25:40commit to anything because those guys
686. 25:42will always be after you." And I said,
687. 25:43"Well, not too much." They said, "How
688. 25:45much?" Said, "100 million." They all
689. 25:47passed out. Um, we got to think this
690. 25:51through. So I got all the heads
691. 25:52together. We spent a whole day in a room
692. 25:55and came up with an idea of um going
693. 26:00going back to all of the CFOs in
694. 26:04companies that owed the state money
695. 26:06going back as I recall 11 years. And so
696. 26:10I sent letters to 325 execs that said if
697. 26:13you and your team come here and um sit
698. 26:17out with my folks, if we can come to a
699. 26:20reasoned settlement in line with the
700. 26:22law, um you just pay what you owe in
701. 26:26interest and I'll forgive the penalties,
702. 26:28which I was empowered to do. And in six
703. 26:30months, we raised over half a billion
704. 26:33dollars. $524 million.
705. 26:36>> Wow.
706. 26:37>> In in six months. So what it really
707. 26:40speaks to is all of that untapped
708. 26:43potential that was already in the
709. 26:45department that we just needed to
710. 26:47unleash. It was trying again trying to
711. 26:50figure out how do you solve a major
712. 26:52major business problem and it was major
713. 26:57>> and I love that you got people in a
714. 26:59room.
715. 27:00>> It wasn't you just deciding and being
716. 27:02brilliant on your own. you got a whole
717. 27:03group of folks close to the problem,
718. 27:05challenged orthodoxies and said where is
719. 27:07there un where is there hidden some
720. 27:09ability and you executed against it. So
721. 27:11that's that's one of those cool seminal
722. 27:13moments for you I'm sure.
723. 27:15>> Well see um when it comes to tax while I
724. 27:18knew a lot at the end of the two years I
725. 27:21didn't know anything at the beginning
726. 27:23and so I didn't have any tax knowledge
727. 27:25at all but I knew how to solve problems.
728. 27:28So I put the best tax minds in the room
729. 27:31and we argued and fussed and fought and
730. 27:33put things on a board and took it down
731. 27:34and erased stuff and put it up and at
732. 27:37the end of the day we all said, "Hey, we
733. 27:39think we have something here. This thing
734. 27:41might work."
735. 27:42>> Yeah.
736. 27:43>> So it was really trying to get the best
737. 27:45heads in the room and getting the best
738. 27:47ideas on the table. And one of the
739. 27:49things I said was, "Look, no idea is a
740. 27:52bad idea. Nobody gets shot down. We want
741. 27:55to hear every single perspective." And
742. 27:58every person spoke up and we you know we
743. 28:01we fought we threw ideas ideas on the
744. 28:04table but what we came up with was solid
745. 28:06and sound and we executed it and in six
746. 28:09months we brought in over half a billion
747. 28:11dollars.
748. 28:13>> Very cool. So two years work a huge ROI
749. 28:18uh at a time in which they needed you
750. 28:19and your expertise obviously as a leader
751. 28:21and also finance professional and
752. 28:23everything else. Where'd you go after
753. 28:25that after your two years with the
754. 28:27government? So I went to a Citizens
755. 28:28Bank. I was a CIO for Citizens Bank in
756. 28:32Boston. Uh the CIO for the commercial
757. 28:35bank. And at the time they were um in
758. 28:39the midst of implementing a new IT
759. 28:43system, their first in 25 years. And so
760. 28:47you can imagine how hairy that was.
761. 28:50>> Um and that was my first role. My second
762. 28:52role was chief of staff for business
763. 28:55operations which included um ops,
764. 28:58technology,
765. 29:00security, supply chain and property.
766. 29:03>> All right. So back to banking at a at a
767. 29:06large scale introducing some level of
768. 29:09change which was obviously across the
769. 29:11system. So when did you was that your
770. 29:14final banking role or kind of when did
771. 29:16you pivot to what you're doing now and
772. 29:18what are you doing now? So um after 40
773. 29:22plus years in the corporate world I said
774. 29:25um I always tell people
775. 29:28when it's time you'll know it.
776. 29:30>> And somehow it it occurred to me I think
777. 29:33it's time been doing this a long time.
778. 29:36It's time for me to you know retire
779. 29:38again. I think this is my third time.
780. 29:41I'm I'm I'm an utter failure at retire.
781. 29:46So, um, we left Boston, went to Florida,
782. 29:50and, um, um, in about
783. 29:53it was a wager how long it would take me
784. 29:55to get back in the in the swing of
785. 29:57things. So, after about four months, I
786. 29:59figured, you know, I've really done a
787. 30:01lot of
788. 30:03organizational change and transformation
789. 30:07and I did it from a practical pragmatic
790. 30:09point of view. I wonder what the theory
791. 30:12is behind it. So I went back to Colombia
792. 30:14and got a masters in organizational
793. 30:16psychology and um when I finished that I
794. 30:20started teaching uh strategy at UCF
795. 30:23undergraduate and graduate and I also
796. 30:26started consulting and then I also
797. 30:29started coaching.
798. 30:31>> Yeah. And and not coaching the football
799. 30:33team by the way. I I assume it's
800. 30:34coaching executive coaching.
801. 30:37>> Executive coaching.
802. 30:38>> Yeah. And the fact you went and got a a
803. 30:41graduate degree, you know, after you'd
804. 30:44retired is I've known one or two others
805. 30:46that do it, but that is a big commitment
806. 30:48that is really shows a dedication to
807. 30:51learning and growing kind of later in
808. 30:53life and others maybe aren't so
809. 30:54motivated to do that. It's interesting.
810. 30:57>> I think personal opinion, I think we all
811. 31:00need to be learning machines.
812. 31:02>> Um, I think learning is a lifelong
813. 31:05thing. I think you're either growing or
814. 31:07you're dying. And part of growth is
815. 31:09learning. Having the intellectual
816. 31:11curiosity to continue to learn new
817. 31:13things in new ways, I think it's is
818. 31:16vitally important. And so even during my
819. 31:18IBM career and after um I attended
820. 31:22programs at Stanford, I attended
821. 31:24programs at Harvard. I went to the
822. 31:26school on negotiation at Harvard which I
823. 31:28thought was a marvelous a marvelous um
824. 31:31experience.
825. 31:33um went to classes at Center for
826. 31:34Creative Leadership. Um so I think one
827. 31:37should never never stop learning.
828. 31:40>> Well, let's do that then and we're we're
829. 31:42going to ask you a little bit about kind
830. 31:43of golden nuggets to distill down for
831. 31:45our audience and then what are you doing
832. 31:46now? Let's start with the golden nuggets
833. 31:48piece.
834. 31:49>> Um what you know our listeners are out
835. 31:53there, they're a little earlier in your
836. 31:54career, you know, anywhere in their 20s,
837. 31:5630s, maybe 40s. What advice would you
838. 31:58give them as they consider making a leap
839. 32:01or trying something new in their career?
840. 32:04>> Well, one thing I'd say is progress is
841. 32:06rarely linear.
842. 32:09Um, some people have the idea that it's
843. 32:12going to be a step step or leap leap
844. 32:14leap. Nah, it's going to be more like a
845. 32:17sailboat. You're going to be tacking
846. 32:18left and right and making progress. But,
847. 32:21so progress is is rarely linear. Um
848. 32:24secondly, um like I said, never stop
849. 32:27learning. Um I used to say always be an
850. 32:31expert at two things. An expert at two
851. 32:34things because because one of them is
852. 32:36going to be obsolete in five years. As a
853. 32:39matter of fact, I was at a reunion about
854. 32:41six months ago and somebody there
855. 32:45reminded me that I told him that 20
856. 32:47years ago.
857. 32:49So I thought that was interesting. Also,
858. 32:52the I'd say another thing is invest in
859. 32:54people and relationships and understand
860. 32:57the importance of relationships
861. 33:00throughout your career and really hold
862. 33:02on to them. Um,
863. 33:04always try to leave things better off
864. 33:06than when you got them, than when you
865. 33:08got there. Um, and enjoy the ride
866. 33:12because it's it's fun. Um, you know, I
867. 33:16don't People ask me sometimes, "What was
868. 33:18my favorite job?" I said, "That's a
869. 33:20really tough question. I've been very
870. 33:22very very fortunate. I've had some
871. 33:23terrific jobs. Um they all had
872. 33:26challenges. Um we had a good team.
873. 33:30Always had good teams that we put
874. 33:32together.
875. 33:32>> Um and always did well and always had
876. 33:34fun doing it.
877. 33:36Well, you you have a very unique career
878. 33:39path starting with, you know, hey, you
879. 33:42can't get to Notre Dame to being an
880. 33:45executive and even a an executive in the
881. 33:48public sphere during very very
882. 33:49tumultuous times and having major impact
883. 33:52at scale. It's pretty impressive
884. 33:54actually.
885. 33:54>> It really is, you know. And I want to
886. 33:56add to to this too, Ken, right? Because
887. 33:58when I think about people that fail at
888. 34:00retirement, right? Uh what's a golden
889. 34:03nugget for them?
890. 34:07um you got to keep the brain cells
891. 34:09firing.
892. 34:11It's the same thing. You're either
893. 34:12growing or you're dying.
894. 34:13>> Yeah.
895. 34:14>> And so I think I don't think that
896. 34:16changes. And I I I really believe that
897. 34:19uh one if if you've got a lot of
898. 34:21experience, then you owe it to society
899. 34:24to find a way to give back.
900. 34:27um you owe it to yourself and society to
901. 34:29contri to continue continue to
902. 34:32contribute in some way that is
903. 34:34meaningful for yourself and the
904. 34:36community that that you happen to live
905. 34:38in. Um and so I I think it's very very
906. 34:42important for me to um um to get
907. 34:45involved in executive coaching because
908. 34:48I've been where people want to go.
909. 34:50Somebody told me a long time ago,
910. 34:53um, when you're in a position to hire
911. 34:55people, hire people. Don't hire people
912. 34:58who, um, hire people who've been where
913. 35:01you want to go, not people who want to
914. 35:03take you there.
915. 35:05>> Interesting.
916. 35:06>> And I thought I thought that was really
917. 35:08profound and I never obviously never
918. 35:10forgot that. So, if you have all of this
919. 35:13expertise and experience, um, it helps
920. 35:16to share it and not not just keep it to
921. 35:19yourself.
922. 35:20I love that.
923. 35:21>> Love it. Terrific. Well, where can they
924. 35:23find you now? Say they want to reach
925. 35:25out, learn more, connect with you as
926. 35:26part of their network or even learn more
927. 35:29about your executive coaching.
928. 35:31>> So, my website, as you might expect, is
929. 35:33perspective always matters.
930. 35:37Um, www.perspectivewaysmatters.com
931. 35:41because I really believe that all
932. 35:43perspectives matter. That's why you've
933. 35:46got to put as many voices around the
934. 35:48table as possible because um as diverse
935. 35:53as the group is around the table, that's
936. 35:56going to reflect in the quality of the
937. 35:58outcome. And so you've got to encourage
938. 36:02a um psychologically safe environment
939. 36:04where people can be feel open to debate,
940. 36:09have dialogue to come up with the best
941. 36:11solution. So, it's perspective
942. 36:13alwaysmatters.com.
943. 36:16>> Terrific. Well, that's perspective
944. 36:18matters.com and, uh, we'll obviously be
945. 36:21listing your episode out there and, um,
946. 36:23CMP can obviously make, you know, we've
947. 36:25done some work with you and look forward
948. 36:26to doing more work with you in the
949. 36:28future, too, Ken. So, uh, consider us,
950. 36:31consider yourself part of the CMP
951. 36:32familia.
952. 36:34>> Outstanding. Thank you very much both,
953. 36:35both both of you, Maryanne and Joe.
954. 36:37Thank you.
955. 36:38>> Thank you for joining us, Ken. Thank you
956. 36:40for sharing your wisdom and insight and
957. 36:42uh best is yet to come my friend. More
958. 36:44to come.
959. 36:45>> Thank you so much.
960. 36:47>> You
961. 36:58American Narratives is brought to you by
962. 36:59CMP, a talent and career transition firm
963. 37:01providing solutions across the full
964. 37:03talent life cycle. From recruiting to
965. 37:05talent development to outplacement, we
966. 37:07help leaders improve our world through
967. 37:08deep insights and impactful talent
968. 37:10solutions.
969. 37:11>> For more information, visit us at
970. 37:13careermpped.com.