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Katharine Birbalsingh Is Leading the Charge Against Woke Schooling — Transcript

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0:01Katherine burbling welcome to Dad Saves
0:03America thanks for having
0:06me so I have so much I'm excited to talk
0:09to you about uh I'll quickly recount how
0:12we met which
0:14is um I went to the arc conference that
0:17Jordan Peterson and others had put on
0:20around this time last year you gave this
0:24awesome speech which people put a link
0:26to and I ran up to you after you gave
0:29the speech and said oh my gosh your
0:31speech was amazing and then I prattled
0:34on about all the different schools I put
0:36my son in which I've talked about on
0:37this channel quite a bit because
0:38education's a big theme here and um to
0:42which you replied oh no no that's all
0:44terrible that's a bunch of progressive
0:47nonsense yes that's right
0:51which which um uh I am not built to take
0:54offense at such things when when I have
0:56when I see someone who's engaged in such
0:58important and great stuff and who use I
1:00share so much so I just was like huh um
1:02you're you you're giving me something to
1:04think about
1:06yeah yeah well I'm glad and now that's
1:08why we're
1:10talking well so so what I'd like to do
1:13um is I want it I want to share with our
1:17audience Michaela what how the school is
1:21how it works um the why underneath it
1:24because there's a there's a you've got a
1:26potent Vision that drives the school
1:29you're known as the strictest head ma
1:31head mistress in uh um in the UK maybe
1:35in the world probably in the
1:37world and then I want you to come at me
1:40with everything you got and help me um
1:43find my blind spots yeah in my um
1:45travails through non-traditional
1:48education so let's just start at the
1:51beginning what have you done with this
1:55school yeah well we set up in 2014 so
1:58we've been going for 10 years uh we are
2:00a secondary school in the inner city and
2:02we're very typical in terms of the inner
2:05city intake um you know it's not
2:08selective it's lots of brown and black
2:10kids from the inner city uh that your
2:13American audience would be familiar with
2:14and same with the UK audience here um
2:18and we get a lot of interest because I
2:21suppose some of the things that we think
2:24and do are considered controversial but
2:26also because of our really amazing
2:29results so for the last uh two years
2:32we've had the highest progress uh at
2:35GCSE which is the national exams that
2:38everybody takes at age 16 here uh we've
2:41had the the highest progress out of all
2:43of the secondary schools in the whole of
2:45the UK uh so that is something also just
2:50in terms of raw numbers the the results
2:52that the kids are coming out with is uh
2:54is is amazing and so that's the results
2:58but then it's also just who they are as
3:00kids so they're really polite they're
3:02really nice to each other they're kind
3:05they're grateful to their teachers for
3:06their hard work um their parents talk
3:09about how when they join the school they
3:11actually seem to become different people
3:13and are just m much nicer versions of
3:15themselves so um we actually get a lot
3:18of visitors here we get over 800 people
3:20coming to visit us every year mainly
3:22teachers from around the world we get
3:24lots of Americans too and um and I've
3:27actually been working in with a school
3:28in the Bronx actually at charta school
3:31uh thanks to their CEO coming over and
3:34seeing our school and thinking oh my
3:35goodness he needed his school to be like
3:37ours um that's great yeah so there's
3:41there's lots of good stuff going on here
3:42and as I say teachers come here in fact
3:44I was just being told about uh a couple
3:46of Australian teachers who were visiting
3:47today and um they broke down into tears
3:51in the middle of the lunch hole because
3:52they were so moved by what they were
3:55seeing so um we we have a lot of success
3:59and um I it's controversial because you
4:03know I say things like children need
4:06praise and Punishment these days
4:08punishment for instance is um is not
4:11really allowed as a word so I'd say you
4:13know I've been a teacher for um all my
4:15life and uh and well I've been a head
4:18mistress for the last 10 years oh those
4:21are our our
4:23Pips it means there's a change over of
4:25lessons um so you're in a real live
4:29school
4:31um yeah that's the Bell uh that's right
4:35that's the bell and what's interesting
4:36is that so the Bell is just gone and
4:40what all you can hear right now in the
4:42school is the moving of chairs on the
4:44floor above you will not hear in normal
4:47schools you'll hear
4:50crazy that's what will happen and then
4:52you'll hear kids running and screaming
4:54and doors sh you know being slammed and
4:57and and it's in a more challenging
4:59school like like the the one we've got
5:01here in the inner city you will see kids
5:03being beaten up and and really horrible
5:05stuff going on here you won't hear a
5:08sound the kids all move around the
5:09corridors in silence apart from saying
5:11good morning and good afternoon to all
5:13the adults the teachers and any visitors
5:15that are around um and it's sort of like
5:19going back into
5:211955 and some people don't like that um
5:24they find it they think it's really
5:27authoritarian I would argue that it's
5:29just the adults being in authority and
5:31that there's a difference when adults
5:33are in Authority in comparison to
5:34authoritarian rule um so I think it's
5:38really good for kids our kids are very
5:40happy joyful and they end up being the
5:44kinds of adults that you would want to
5:45be friends with who you can respect and
5:47who you would admire these days I always
5:49say to people just go on the buses and
5:51look at the kids and you tell me whether
5:53or not schools are doing a good
5:55job I always think that it's pretty
5:58obvious if you judge the kids just with
6:01the kinds of eyes you think well would
6:02you put up with that kind of behavior
6:03from someone in an office would you you
6:06know do people go around rolling their
6:08eyes at each other and telling each
6:09other to f off and shoving each other
6:11and so on like this kind of behavior I
6:14don't think should be um allowed when it
6:17comes to children and I think you're
6:19letting them down if you don't teach
6:21them how to behave differently so um we
6:25I I personally am also controversial
6:28I've got a Twitter account where I tweet
6:31things that can make some people very
6:34angry or I I go on the news I think
6:37that's the sole purpose of
6:39Twitter X Twitter SLX but it's still
6:42it's its core purpose hasn't changed
6:44which is to be the troll version of
6:46yourself well the thing is that I say
6:49those things so I don't just put it on
6:51Twitter so uh this morning I was being
6:53interviewed by The Spectator about um
6:57our labor government their Cho decision
6:59to uh stop the vat exemption that
7:04private schools have so it means that
7:06the private school fees are going to go
7:07up in this country and um so I was
7:10talking about that and saying why I
7:12thought it was a bad idea even though I
7:14don't run a private school I run a state
7:16school um and so a lot of my opinions
7:19are are are quite controversial they
7:22don't fit the mold of what you would
7:24imagine a blackhead mistress in the
7:25inner city with a bunch of black and
7:27brown kids should normally say I say
7:29things that are quite conservative um
7:33and so it means some people really like
7:36me and some people will really really
7:37really hate
7:38me um but I keep going and the reason I
7:42keep going is because I believe in what
7:44we're doing for the children and I also
7:46am like a a I'm like a Salesman going
7:50around the country and sometimes you
7:52know in America and in Australia and in
7:54New Zealand and I go around and I give
7:56talks to people to to teachers about the
7:59sorts of things that we do and what
8:02works and why and how they might want to
8:04try out some of these methods in their
8:06schools and so when you said to me about
8:09the schools that you were sending your
8:11son to and what they did you know you
8:15were I know it was a bit the
8:18conversation with you is the kind of
8:19conversation that always makes me it
8:21always makes me wince slightly because
8:23the person you in this case is kind of
8:26saying oh I think you're brilliant I
8:27think you're brilliant and it's just
8:28like what I think because this is what I
8:30know schools should be doing and then I
8:32think no no no no that's not what I
8:33think at
8:34all and then I have to sort of break the
8:37heart of the person who was all excited
8:38when they're talking to me that's how I
8:39felt when I was speaking to you but you
8:41were very you know gallant and uh
8:45charming and dealing with my my push
8:47back in what uh in what you were
8:50saying well I appreciate that I think we
8:53actually fundamentally believe the same
8:55things and I think where there is first
8:58of all I'm always open to being wrong
9:02because most of the time I probably am
9:04it's a good place to start I think all
9:07right I'll keep this quick if you like
9:09what you're hearing and want to hear
9:10more don't forget to hit that like
9:12button and subscribe to the channel so
9:14you won't miss our new content as it
9:16comes out every week and now back to the
9:19conversation you've said uh you've said
9:22things in the documentary about the
9:24school and other places that a lot of
9:27the um structure
9:30in
9:32Michaela is a kind of scaffolding that
9:35used to exist in our culture and no
9:37longer
9:39does what do you mean by that lay that
9:41out where have we what did we leave
9:45behind we we the collectivist we uh in
9:49the west what do the West kick to the
9:52curb culturally that has has essentially
9:55laid at your
9:57doorstep the need to re aert structure
10:00and a
10:01culture that is lost yeah so um yeah
10:06it's a great question uh it you know
10:10it's interesting so Jonathan height who
10:12um has written a book recently called uh
10:14the anxious generation he's American so
10:16your American audience will know of him
10:18um I know John right and and he's
10:20written the codling of the American mind
10:22and he WR wrote a great book uh The
10:24Righteous Mind which was trying to
10:26explain to liberals how the conservative
10:28mind works works and he of course is a
10:31liberal himself um and he the anxious
10:35generation I'm very um well I like his
10:38other books too but I'm particularly
10:40interested in that now because he's he
10:42puts together a lot of data to explain
10:44why children really shouldn't um have
10:46access to a smartphone in a liberal sort
10:48of way um and that it can destroy their
10:51lives and that constant online um use is
10:54is is just extremely destructive and I
10:56have been campaigning for years to try
10:58and get parents not to give their
10:59children smartphones and to be very V
11:02Vigilant at home with the laptops and so
11:03on um now and that just real quick that
11:08fact though I didn't have the data was
11:11what motivated us to put my son in a
11:13Waldorf School from first through fourth
11:16grade when we moved here to Austin
11:17because it was the one really the only
11:21School environment where the uh a kind
11:24of a very holistic ban on digital
11:27devices permeated the the schooling was
11:30required because it's one thing to do
11:31that as an individual and then you send
11:33your kids to school and everybody's got
11:35a phone but them and you're screwed so
11:37that was a that was part of the journey
11:39that we can Circle back to later but
11:41keep yes no but you make a very good
11:42point so parents will often say when on
11:44Twitter and so on and I'm saying parents
11:46get rid of the smartphone they say yeah
11:47but fear of missing out my kid isn't
11:49going to have any friends what do I do
11:51and it is genuine problem for parents uh
11:54which is why here at Michaela of course
11:56they don't have that problem because we
11:58are pushing the the anti-s smartphone
12:00position so in such a big way that
12:04really I would say it's not until
12:05they're 14 or 15 that they are getting
12:08on mass you know smartphones so it means
12:10that parents really canot give their
12:12child a smartphone and their child will
12:14be okay here at least for the younger
12:16years of those teenage years um now I
12:20mean I wish my thing is you really
12:22shouldn't give children a smartphone
12:23below the age of 16 um now the reason
12:26why I bring up Jonathan height is to
12:28your question
12:30so I agree with Jonathan on everything
12:34but one thing that he says that I have a
12:36bit of a problem with is that he very
12:39much wants I know why he wants it he's
12:42saying uh we cuddle kids too much uh so
12:46cuddling in the American mind the book
12:48before uh we we don't allow them the
12:52freedoms that they need and this speaks
12:53to the heart of what what you you I
12:57imagine would be wanting for your son
13:00um we we the freedom that he used to
13:03have when you and I and he were growing
13:06up we will have had very similar
13:07childhoods we would have w we rode our
13:10bike to the to the corner shop and we
13:12left the bike outside we didn't lock it
13:14up we went in we got our thing we came
13:16out you know I grew up in Toronto in
13:18Canada to the age of 15 uh in those days
13:22when I was so in the' 70s and in early '
13:2580s then um we didn't lock the front
13:28door you know um now at some point
13:32actually we did there was somebody came
13:33into the house and we were there was a
13:35you know a robbery I mean they stole a
13:37few things while we we were out and from
13:40then on we did start locking the house
13:42but for many years before that we didn't
13:44um you wouldn't necessarily locked the
13:45car door um I remember once cycling
13:48along my sister fell over and she hurt
13:51herself badly we were able to just knock
13:53on the one of the neighbors way off down
13:56the street knock on the door the woman
13:58took us in b Ed up her knee looked after
14:00her and made sure that we were fine to
14:02be able to get home now in
14:061983 in Toronto or in New Jersey or
14:09wherever it was Jonathan was growing up
14:12the fact is that we had a culture and a
14:15society where we could depend on each
14:17other to trust each other to look after
14:20each other and you could have that
14:23freedom you could allow children that
14:25sort of freedom because um you could
14:28trust the other people around the pro
14:30and and that's what Jonathan height is
14:32arguing for now because he's saying that
14:35if we stifle the children too much
14:38they're not able to grow in the way that
14:39we want them to and develop a sense of
14:41personal responsibility um decency
14:43towards others a sense of Duty towards
14:46others and so on you know and I all of
14:48that small C conservative values I live
14:50for that I call myself a small C
14:52conservative and I'm very much trying to
14:53instill those kinds of values in our
14:55children here at school um but uh we
15:00strongly advise our parents where
15:02possible to try and meet their children
15:03after school when they're going home
15:06often they can't do that well all of my
15:08teachers at the end of the school day
15:09are outside getting the kids on the
15:11buses making sure that they get on the
15:13bus so that they can get home because we
15:15genuinely worry about their safety and
15:17what is going to happen to them when
15:19they're out on the streets here in the
15:21inner city because this is the inner
15:23city um you know there's there's one boy
15:26who I know of here who was telling me
15:28that the day you know that he was on his
15:30way home um and that uh uh he this was
15:35this was on a weekend so he was wearing
15:37normal clothes because if they're in
15:38this school uniform it's kind of okay
15:40he's wearing normal clothes he's on his
15:42way home um and a couple 19 20 21y old
15:46uh young men saw him and started talking
15:49about him and said of him what they said
15:52of him in in the street language that
15:54they were speaking was they wondered
15:56whether or not he was running drugs for
15:58one of the local gangs now the other one
16:01said nah it's not it's not that because
16:04look at his shirt and what they were
16:06saying was his shirt is too cheap his
16:08shirt we know his shirt is cheap and no
16:10drug Runner and the thing is he's only
16:1212 so he's a young kid but they use
16:15young kids to run the drugs and they
16:17said well he's only 12 he say they said
16:19his the shirt is cheap and they know
16:22that the drug running kid wouldn't be
16:24seen dead in in in a shirt like that and
16:27so they let him alone wearing old Navy
16:29what is this he not no exactly they let
16:31him alone but I promise you that shirt
16:34saved his life right because had he not
16:37been wearing that shirt it's very
16:39possible you're in the wrong postcat at
16:41the wrong time as a black boy they'll
16:43kill you right so the thing is when
16:46Jonathan height is saying that stuff
16:48yeah let them be free well he was free
16:50and he wasn't with an adult and he was
16:51walking home on his own you know his
16:54life is at risk so the thing is is that
16:58I just think the the the the the the
17:02level of trust and safety and you could
17:05trust that there was a decent behavior
17:08that was going to happen around you it
17:10allows you a certain level of Freedom as
17:12a child um that does not um exist
17:17anymore so we have to be more protective
17:19of them you cannot just say to them well
17:22go off online now Jonathan is aware of
17:24that Jonathan knows that you know he's
17:27saying let them have freedom outside but
17:30don't let them have freedom online
17:31because online world is very dangerous
17:33um now in school to just add to the
17:37whole point about
17:38values so I spent my whole life working
17:41in schools if you talk to any of my
17:42teachers they'll all tell you the same
17:43story so this isn't just my experience
17:45I've only worked in the inner city in
17:47London the corridors are places where
17:49children fear to walk to their next
17:53classroom um now not necessarily because
17:55they think they're going to die I don't
17:57think that's going to happen but they
17:58will get beaten up they're going to get
18:00bullied exactly and they're worried and
18:03if they don't get beaten up they're
18:04going to get shoved and they're going to
18:06they somebody's going to give them a
18:07look and then they have to keep their
18:09eyes to the ground and that we teach the
18:11children keep your eyes to the ground
18:12when you're walking outside because if
18:14you catch somebody's eye in the wrong
18:16kind of way your life is in danger so
18:19like and that's the case inside your own
18:21school now not in our school okay
18:23because we have um taught our children
18:25how to behave and look after each other
18:27and be kind to each other kindness is
18:29actively taught gratitude is actively
18:32taught now you and you should be
18:34grateful for your life however little
18:36you have you know
18:38now the thing is is that those kinds of
18:42values I call them small C conservative
18:44values kindness gratitude a sense of
18:47Duty towards others so if you get into
18:48detention you're not just letting
18:50yourself down you're letting down the
18:51whole class because your tutor you come
18:54back at the end of the day and the tutor
18:55says okay three of you have got the
18:56tension you've let us all down because
18:58that brings shame on the entire class
19:00now the idea of Shame for instance like
19:03that something that no one talks like no
19:05one's allowed to talk about that kind of
19:07thing anymore um I'm a big fan of Shame
19:09personally well I don't think you can
19:11have a free Society without shame you
19:13either have a free society and shame or
19:15you have a tyranny exactly that's
19:16exactly right so what you're saying
19:18there is so 50 years ago there was more
19:21of a sense of Shame so you could have
19:23the freedoms the freedoms were there
19:26because people would have felt Ash more
19:27ashamed of about ing you they would have
19:30felt they wouldn't have gone into your
19:31house even though it was open because
19:33you just don't do that right the just
19:36don't do that still applies nowadays but
19:39to far fewer things so you wouldn't just
19:42run down the street naked because you
19:44just don't do that although there are
19:47sometimes when you are allowed to run
19:48down the street naked and certain um you
19:51know uh parades parades and and so on
19:53exactly so and and then it kind of it
19:56bleeds out from that so you have these
19:58um you know uh drag queen Library
20:02readings for CH for toddlers and weird
20:05acrobatics that people are doing without
20:08any clothes on in front of toddlers you
20:10know like I some of this stuff that
20:12makes me go and then people say oh she's
20:15such a prude and oh she's such a strict
20:17head mistress but I mean in 1985 nobody
20:20would have thought that of me everybody
20:21would have just thought I was normal so
20:23I mean I don't feel I'm bizarre I feel
20:26everybody's gone crazy that
20:29okay and I need a time machine to go
20:31back to
20:321985 so I want to um I want I overall
20:36agree but I want to push on a couple
20:38things uh to to because I think one
20:40thing that's interesting so this show in
20:42some ways is actually deeply inspired by
20:45the cuddling of the American mind right
20:46because what I
20:47saw I saw in the anxiety of my son's
20:50peers and then was pretty well
20:52articulated in that book was a kind of
20:55posture that seemed antithetical to
20:57having a free Society
20:59like I don't know how you're going to
21:00have a free Society with young people
21:03who
21:04are wed by this kind of existential
21:07anxiety about the world about the future
21:09about themselves about their choices
21:10they have no internal Locust of control
21:13all of those things yeah well I 100%
21:16agree with that yeah go on so so what
21:19what what is interesting in the time
21:22frames you're talking about is in the
21:26States now this might be it's less true
21:29today than it was say in 2019 but let's
21:32just put ourselves in 2019 for a minute
21:35although it's still I think true
21:36today our cities are mostly safer than
21:40they were in the
21:411980s particularly New York City but but
21:44others as well so Lenor skazi who I've
21:46had on the show you know became the
21:48world's worst mom for putting her kid on
21:50a subway when he was nine I put my son
21:52on on the bus to to a job that was part
21:56of his school thing when he was 11 years
21:59old or however old he was in seventh
22:01grade and he saw all kinds of nonsense
22:04he saw people like coming on drunk and
22:06falling over and asking asking to use
22:08his phone because God knows what and
22:10then getting off the bus and there's a
22:11lot of people falling over like zombies
22:14um but but
22:17statistically he was safer than if I was
22:20doing that in
22:211985 so so like the our perception of
22:25whether things are safer or not versus
22:28the actual uality is one thing the other
22:30thing though seems to me like you're
22:32talking
22:33about what I think might be two
22:35different worlds so literally like
22:39working class in poor kids in inner
22:43cities like the kids you're serving so
22:45well are facing a different set of
22:48circumstances than my son and middle and
22:52upper middle class kids and and I think
22:55what height to his detriment is doing is
22:59singularly focusing on the latter I
23:01agree I agree and I think they do have
23:04the problems Height's talking about yes
23:06yes no in large measure but not entirely
23:08for the reasons he's talking about yeah
23:10so how do you think about that for for
23:12the viewer who might be in one or the
23:14other circumstance and how to set the
23:17context right yeah I agree so your
23:18examples there of a 9-year-old or an
23:2111-year-old getting on a bus and going
23:23and seeing a drunk person and so on who
23:25of course yes please do they they they
23:27should experience all of that um and I
23:29agree that um there's far too much
23:32helicopter parenting and that I suspect
23:35yes that Jonathan hey is talking about a
23:37very particular kind of parent who is
23:39living in a well-to-do area where their
23:42child isn't in danger at all but they
23:45are being far too prescriptive about
23:47what they do and where they go meanwhile
23:49they give them an iPad and let them do
23:51anything they want to do online but they
23:54they they they're restricting their
23:56freedom when it comes to movement and
23:58seeing being their friends and so on and
23:59so forth so yeah no 100% And I 100% back
24:03what you're saying and what he would say
24:04about allowing your kid on a train and
24:07all that as long as they are you you
24:09feel they will be genuinely safe I
24:11suppose yes I am immersed in a world
24:14which is very different to that world
24:16and um and I know that we couldn't
24:19possibly do the things that Jonathan
24:21height is suggesting with our intake
24:23here um and if he is just talking about
24:27the the more well areas well then fine I
24:30I suppose I I would just want that
24:31Nuance in there um I I do but then all
24:36the other stuff with regard to the
24:37values I mean it's interesting what you
24:38were saying I was agreeing with you 100%
24:41look you do want like so when he says he
24:44says for instance you need a junkyard in
24:46the schools with lots of different um
24:49items that they can build things with
24:51and do random stuff with and I'm
24:54thinking look if I have crowbars sitting
24:56around the yard uh you know that is a
25:00disaster in an inoc City school so but
25:02it is true that
25:04um that that that we are perhaps talking
25:07about you know very very different uh
25:10spaces um and I suppose when I say 1985
25:14uh you know maybe rewind a little
25:16further back is would be one way to put
25:19it like if you re if you rewind Back to
25:21Before 195 the race riots of the 1960s
25:24yes yes okay so 1955 then you have a
25:26different you have an environment that's
25:28a little more consistent across the
25:30board I think for all the problems pre
25:32Civil Rights Act and what yes yeah you
25:34might be right I mean when I said 1985 I
25:36just meant when you and I were growing
25:38up you know and when Jonathan height was
25:40growing up and wherever it was that we
25:42were growing up what he's remembering in
25:44his head is not necessarily the reality
25:47of all kids you know nowadays but um
25:50yeah I mean all the other stuff I'm
25:52saying the thing is I tell you what it
25:55is look you and Jonathan he are
25:58absolutely right to Crave freedom for
26:02children being you want them to be able
26:06to have agency and for them to take
26:10responsibility and to own their own
26:12development to be able to be creative
26:16and analytical and independently minded
26:19that's what you want for them I want the
26:20same things right um you're making some
26:24leaps but you're not wrong as far as my
26:26my take but yes continue okay um now
26:32what I would argue and this is what I
26:33was saying to you when we met is that
26:36the more Progressive uh educational uh
26:40model Progressive yeah yeah exactly um
26:44does not does not give you those things
26:48and that what gives you those things is
26:51what we do here so uh let me explain
26:56uh often so Elon musk is another person
27:00uh I disagree with um I mean look
27:04obviously uh he does great things and I
27:05don't know anything about Rockets or
27:07cars and so on but his opinions about
27:09education are wrong he thinks that um he
27:14always says what you need to do is teach
27:16them how to think uh not teach them what
27:19to think now there are lots of people on
27:21the right who say this okay and I know
27:24why they say it uh they say it out of
27:27frustration because they know that the
27:29schools and the universities currently
27:31are sort of doing a brainwashing thing
27:34where uh they are teaching our children
27:37to be very woke to uh divide each other
27:40into groups of LGBT and black and Muslim
27:43and Hindu and and poor and Rich and so
27:47on and they have a victim hierarchy that
27:51they teach everybody and they talk about
27:53intersectionality and everybody's trying
27:55to be the biggest victim that you can be
27:57because that's how you get social uh
28:00respect and that is destructive and Elon
28:03is absolutely right to be critical of
28:05that so then he says look you guys
28:07you're teaching them what to think not
28:09how to think what we need to do is teach
28:11them how to think and then everything
28:12will be all right um he's wrong
28:16uh the problem isn't that they're
28:18teaching them what to think the problem
28:20is the content that they're teaching
28:22them in teaching them what to think we
28:24do need to teach children what to think
28:26of course we need to teach children what
28:28to think otherwise they will all kill
28:30each other right and what I mean by that
28:33is we are there is such a thing as I
28:37mean look I'm going to get into trouble
28:38of saying this original sin people don't
28:40like me saying original sin I once got
28:42into a huge load of trouble on Twitter
28:44where I happened to be visiting Paris I
28:46was walking down the Shan Z I saw a
28:48tweet somebody said something about kids
28:50being naughty I retweeted it and said
28:52yeah like original sin who told me to do
28:54that next thing you know I was having to
28:57go on TV to defend my myself I was being
28:59attack you're talking to an increasingly
29:01Orthodox Catholic so you have nothing to
29:04you are in a safe space for Talk of the
29:06fallenness of man okay the
29:27imperfectbutredeemed Killing Fields of
29:29of Cambodia it's just every time exactly
29:32exactly I am not a Christian but the
29:35point is that anybody you see two
29:37toddlers sitting next to each other they
29:39will you give them one toy they will hit
29:41each other they don't say oh darling how
29:44about we share you have it for five
29:46minutes and then I'll take it for five
29:48minutes no toddler has ever said that in
29:50any country in any language you have to
29:53teach the toddler what to think you have
29:56to teach him hitting is wrong the
29:59sharing is right and if you don't teach
30:01them what to think they will kill each
30:03other that is what will happen you have
30:06to teach children what not how and when
30:09you teach them the what you teach them
30:12lots of content you teach them some
30:13history and some geography and some
30:15science and some French and some Spanish
30:16and so on and once you've taught them
30:18all this stuff and they have loads of
30:22knowledge they can then think
30:24independently about it because you
30:27cannot be creative about something or
30:29with something unless you know lots
30:31about it so to go back to Elon Musk Elon
30:35Musk can I can I throw something in that
30:37that's that you're reminding me about
30:40technologically which will be a nice
30:42segue back to Elon we are in this
30:44interesting time right now right of this
30:46these large language
30:48models and they're weird but they are a
30:52kind of mirror on Humanity in a par in
30:55in a way a broken impartial mirror but
30:58they actually work exactly the way
31:00you're describing right which is to say
31:03the prior attempts to create artificial
31:05intelligence was to establish an
31:07elaborate structure of rules in an
31:09algorithm that's the H that's a kind of
31:12teach the machine how to think what it
31:15turned out was if you feed them all the
31:19text you possibly can which is a which
31:22is what not
31:24how the the the mechanism of of the
31:28Transformer technology that underlies
31:30these things gives rise to something
31:33that sure looks a lot like how to think
31:35like analysis and uh text prediction
31:39that passes the terrain test and now
31:41even a kind of
31:43stepbystep analytical process and so it
31:47appears that at least in terms of the
31:49computer
31:50world you have to start with what before
31:53you can get to how for any of that Tech
31:55to work which I think underly your point
31:59to you know I don't know that these
32:01things ultimately work like we do they
32:03might be like the airplane that uses
32:05Jets instead of flapping its
32:07wings but it's still pretty interesting
32:09that that's the case yeah well that's
32:11amazing I've never thought about that
32:12but absolutely that exactly how H how
32:17does anyone do anything so to get back
32:20to Elon look if you put a car in front
32:22of me and said Katherine do something
32:25creative with the car create a different
32:27sort of car
32:28I would say I can't do that I don't know
32:30anything about cars so there's no way I
32:32can be creative Elon Musk can be
32:34creative with cars because he knows
32:35about cars he's unable to be creative
32:38with education and succeed because he
32:39doesn't know anything about education I
32:41on the other hand do know loads about
32:43education which is why I've turned
32:44education on its head which is why I'm
32:46controversial which is why I get I've
32:48had over 7,000 visitors come and visit
32:50my school because I know education so I
32:52am thinking independently about it I'm
32:54being creative with it I I'm out of the
32:56box the only way that you can be out of
32:58the box on anything is if you know lots
33:00about it so this idea that we need to be
33:03teaching kids how to think it's just
33:05silly you need to teach them what to
33:07think you need to give them loads and
33:09loads of knowledge and then it's not
33:11like they don't do anything with the
33:12knowledge so if you come to our school
33:15you will see children learning at speed
33:17I mean the pace is incredible they learn
33:20so much and then if you were to sit with
33:22them at lunch and have chats with them
33:24about history or geography or science
33:26and so on they will impress you to no
33:28ends you won't believe everything that
33:30they that they know and think and so
33:33on and then they'll be able to give you
33:36differing opinions at the table about
33:38what they think about 1066 or whatever
33:41it is you know whatever historical
33:43battle you want to discuss they will
33:44have different opinions about it because
33:46they know it inside out and that's
33:48because their teacher knew more than
33:50they do the teacher gave them the
33:53knowledge allowed them to do some
33:55exercises which meant that they would
33:57remember the knowledge and then once
34:00you've got that knowledge in their
34:01long-term memories they can use that
34:04knowledge and develop it to come up with
34:06their own ideas about that knowledge
34:08that is what creativity is and
34:12sadly uh Elon and everybody um doesn't
34:19understand uh how to get creativity he
34:24himself did not become creative because
34:26he's obviously very creative and
34:28independently minded he's become that
34:30way by finding out lots of stuff by
34:32becoming knowledgeable he doesn't get
34:34that and this is what people do all the
34:35time they retrieve they they they have a
34:39traditional education somebody gives
34:41them lots of knowledge or they find the
34:42knowledge themselves by reading loads
34:45they become creative and then they say
34:47to their own children or to the children
34:50often poor children in the inner city no
34:52no no no no I'm going to do something
34:54brilliant for you let's do something
34:55creative with you we're going to have
34:57lessons in your school where everybody
35:00puts a Post-It note on each other's head
35:02and then you wander around the classroom
35:04trying to identify who has a Post-It
35:06note that's just like yours okay you can
35:09do that and it's fun and I've seen
35:12similar sorts of exercises happen a
35:14million times in a million different
35:15classrooms Across the Western world but
35:17I can tell you at the end of the lesson
35:19while everybody's had a good time few
35:21children have learned very much few
35:23children remember very much what they
35:25remember is wasn't that fun with the
35:27post note but do they know much about
35:29the history that you were meant to be
35:30learning that lesson no and so are they
35:33ever going to be truly creative later in
35:35life about the history that they were
35:37learning no because they don't know any
35:40and then because they haven't been told
35:42what to think right and they don't know
35:44anything they are ripe for Tik Tok
35:48because they don't know any history yeah
35:50the only history that they're then going
35:52to learn is what they're taught on Tik
35:54Tok so Tik Tok you can't put a video for
35:57more than 30 seconds on there otherwise
35:58you lose people's attention so via 25
36:02second 28 second videos pushing a
36:05particular woke agenda children are
36:08going to learn their history so they are
36:11then being taught what to think by tick
36:13talk instead of being taught what to
36:15think by their teachers who should be
36:18now this is the problem and Elon is
36:20right to pick up on this the teacher
36:22should be sensibly minded small CA
36:25conservative slightly fudy duddy people
36:27who in 1955 there were loads of them
36:30nowadays all of our teachers are very
36:32woke and believe that um the way
36:35children should be taught is to
36:37radicalize them and make them into
36:40adults who are going to reject the The
36:43Establishment we believe as teachers
36:46that our job is to get children to be
36:49radicals and overthrow that
36:52establishment that's so evil um whereas
36:55I actually think our job is to teach
36:56them algebra
36:58and to teach them some history and some
37:00geography and some science and some
37:02French um and if you teach them all of
37:05that stuff they then have an armor that
37:09they can go out into the world in and be
37:12able to interpret the world and
37:15understand what's happening and be
37:17creative and think for themselves but if
37:19you haven't really taught them very much
37:22then the only thing they can learn is
37:24off Tik Tok and they are easily
37:26manipulating
37:28they are vulnerable any extremist group
37:31out there any anybody who wants to teach
37:34them whatever they want they'll just
37:35learn it then because they haven't got
37:38any I always call them coat pegs in your
37:40head the knowledge begets knowledge you
37:44have you you have some coat pegs and
37:46then you learn some more knowledge and
37:47it sits on those coat pegs and then you
37:49learn more knowledge again and more on
37:51those coat and the more and more coat
37:53pegs are being developed and you're just
37:55Gathering more and more and more
37:56knowledge and becoming more interesting
37:59that's the goal is to be an interesting
38:01person that is is is simply not
38:04happening and that's because the
38:07progressive um the selling point the
38:12progressive schools what they say go on
38:14any website you'll
38:16see we want your child to be creative to
38:20be unique to discover who he really is
38:24that's what they're gonna say right this
38:26is ridiculous everybody needs to learn
38:28some algebra this business of I'm going
38:30to discover who you really are no you
38:32need to learn some algebra you need to
38:34learn some trigonometry you need to
38:35learn some history you need to learn how
38:37to write an essay once you've to been
38:39taught all of that then you go to
38:41university and discover who you are but
38:43at 15 you need to learn some algebra
38:47um it's when I say things like that that
38:50people get very upset well I mean it all
38:53sounds profoundly sensible and obvious
38:55and maybe it's because I'm I am um
38:57increasingly a premodern person
39:01um let get you have a bunch of um
39:07actions that what is the what is the
39:09formula of Aristotle that action begets
39:12habit begets character begets who you
39:15are as a person yeah that seems like the
39:18architecture of your school in a lot of
39:19ways is that a fair is that a fair way
39:21to put it yes so habit building so James
39:26clear's book on habits Atomic habits and
39:29various other habit building books we've
39:30got tons of them in the library I'm
39:32constantly doing assemblies on this sort
39:34of thing uh we recognize that success
39:39comes through habit building uh Joo
39:43willink again is another big hero of
39:46mine because I try and get on my
39:47treadmill at 5:15 in the morning and I
39:49think of Joo and his tweets where he
39:51tweets his watch and it says 403 and he
39:54says let's go and I get on my treadmill
39:57at 5:15 and I think Joo was on his
39:59treadmill at 4:03 I'm late I've got to
40:02keep going now and I do assemblies on
40:07this I do assemblies going and I say be
40:11like Joo uh do the things that James
40:14Clear says habits you know Joo all of
40:18them uh David Goggins all those guys
40:21they talk about get started just do
40:23something and keep going with it right
40:26because if you go to the if you get on
40:27the treadmill every morning it then just
40:29becomes who you are and we have a
40:32pyramid and at the top of the pyramid it
40:34says it's who you are and I don't have
40:37my pyramid to show you um it says it's
40:41who you are and at the bottom of the
40:43pyramid you do the right thing because
40:45you want to avoid demerits and you want
40:47to avoid detentions now that's where the
40:49kids start they start at the bottom oh
40:52I'm going to get into trouble I don't
40:53want to get into detention I better do
40:54my homework oh I'm going to get into
40:55trouble I need to be on time oh I need
40:57to be polite I need to do whatever
40:59because otherwise I get into trouble and
41:01then they move up the pyramid next step
41:04is you want to get a merit step after
41:06that I want to impress my teachers so if
41:07you know you're in the middle of the
41:09pyramid it's better you're doing the
41:11right thing not just because you want to
41:12avoid A detention you actually want the
41:15respect of your teachers that's better
41:17then the next step after that you want a
41:19great future so then you're connecting
41:22that's the development bit so you know
41:24the the bit where you were saying about
41:26coddling the American mind what you and
41:27Jonathan height want you want kids to go
41:32okay this is my future I could have a
41:34bad future and be somebody who's always
41:36late and never does my homework etc etc
41:39or I could have a good future because I
41:40develop certain habits and become that
41:42kind of person I am owning my own
41:44development so when you're at the bottom
41:46you're not owning your own development
41:47because you're just doing it because you
41:48might get into trouble oh I don't want
41:49to detention when you're in the middle
41:51you're doing it because you want to
41:52impress somebody okay that's better but
41:55when you're on that fourth rung you
41:57understand wait a minute what I'm doing
41:59now is going to enable me to be to have
42:01a certain kind of future I'm going to be
42:03a certain kind of person who people will
42:04respect and admire and I want that for
42:07myself and I am going to take control of
42:09my own life so that's where you are in
42:10the fourth run and that's what you want
42:12you get there through habit formation
42:15right when you get to the top it's just
42:17who you are so my thing is our kids
42:21we'll either have them five years the
42:22end of GCSE or a level that takes us
42:25seven years when they go off to
42:26University
42:28and my thing is lots of them will start
42:31at the bottom of the pyramid I need to
42:33by the time they leave us they need to
42:34be at the top I want them to leave us as
42:37the kinds of people who naturally
42:40without thought can sit on a chair can
42:43look you in the eye can shake your hand
42:46will always remember to bring a pen
42:48would always go to an interview and walk
42:49in and make a good impression shake your
42:51hand look at you in the eye they're not
42:53going to forget their pen they'll have
42:55done the preparation for the interview
42:56before beforehand because they've been
42:58doing their homework for seven years
43:00without fail and they're going to turn
43:02up and they're going to impress just
43:03like they impressed their teachers on
43:05that third rung and they're going to do
43:07that because they understand that this
43:08is good for their future but it's now
43:12who they are they're at the top and
43:14that's just the person who they are and
43:16because it's who they are and they can
43:18sit up straight and they can shake the
43:20hand they can look you in the eye and
43:22they can speak articulately when they're
43:25doing all of that in the interview
43:26they're working memory is freed up to be
43:29able to think about the content that
43:31they have to provide to the interviewer
43:34to say I'm the person the right person
43:36for this job if on the other hand you're
43:38a typical inner city kid who hasn't been
43:40taught any of those habits he's going
43:42into that interview thinking remember to
43:44peel my trousers up remember that I have
43:46to sit down oh I have to shake the hand
43:48oh I didn't look him in the eye oh did I
43:50even know that I was meant to look him
43:51in the eye oh gosh uh oh God I didn't
43:54bring a pen and I didn't prepare for the
43:55interview either and I don't actually
43:57know what I'm doing and my working
43:58memory is completely overloaded because
44:00there's nothing in my long-term memory
44:02because I was never taught what I was
44:04only ever taught how or I was actually
44:05just messing around and pushing people
44:07in the corridor and bullying other kids
44:09and so on and so I'm now turning up to
44:10this interview and I've got nothing
44:13whereas if the school on the other hand
44:15is teaching them what to think is
44:17building those habits in them over and
44:19over and over again until you get to the
44:20top you are creating human beings adults
44:25who are then able to do it on their own
44:28and that is what you and Jonathan height
44:30want you want the kids who are able to
44:34be creative to be independently minded
44:36to to to to to own their own development
44:39and so on you only get there by teaching
44:42them what to think and by instilling
44:44those good habits over years through
44:46correction over correction you were late
44:48again today you were late again today
44:50detention detention right Merit over
44:52here Merit over there that was brilliant
44:54work wow five days straight you've beat
44:56on time well done constant correction
45:00you're doing that praise and Punishment
45:02at the beginning I didn't say actually
45:03so punishment is a dirty word these days
45:05when I first started my career
45:07punishment was fine then they said oh no
45:09no children shouldn't be punished that's
45:11a terrible thing we need to turn to
45:14sanctions and so then we moved to
45:16sanctions you couldn't ever say
45:17punishments you had to use sanctions
45:19then they said oh my goodness sanctions
45:21yes what is this the UN it was crazy so
45:23they told us it was all sanctions your
45:25sanction was a detention but you never
45:27about detention he talked about a
45:28sanction then they said no no no no no
45:30we have to move now to what was it um
45:34correction so then you started talking
45:36about corrections then we moved to now
45:38back to prison okay well and then we
45:40went to consequences like we moved from
45:43punishment sanction correction
45:46consequence that we've now got to a
45:48point where even consequence they say
45:51you know what detentions are just
45:53terrible what about their mental health
45:56what about anxiety this is what they say
45:59and I say if you don't give children
46:01praise and punishment that's when you
46:03get anxiety okay if a child leaves
46:06School functionally illiterate and
46:07functionally enumerate that's when
46:08they're anxious for the rest of their
46:10lives so the thing is is that we've all
46:13lost our minds and um we have no idea
46:17how to hold standards High anymore for
46:19children and the children are then going
46:22to University and then Jordan Peterson
46:23comes along and Jordan Peterson says oh
46:25my goodness look at what's going on on
46:27in universities oh my goodness look at
46:28what's coming out and he's absolutely
46:30right but where he's wrong is that he
46:32doesn't understand that this already
46:34happened at school and the reason why
46:37all of these guys are wrong is that none
46:39of them care about what's happening in
46:41schools and I feel like I'm the only
46:44person running around like a you know um
46:47a Salesman with my little suitcase going
46:49around trying to say to people with my
46:51flag listen to me listen to me you don't
46:54understand it's all about what's
46:55happening in schools but nobody's
46:58listening well I'm listening uh very
47:01much so and I agree with you
47:03wholeheartedly I the very first videos
47:06on this channel three years ago were
47:08about primary education about K through2
47:11it's probably about a third of
47:12everything we do because I agree I I I
47:15think that and actually that is height
47:18Height's book you know we talk we're
47:21talking about hype but actually Greg
47:22lukianov is was actually really in a way
47:25the the lead writer on codling
47:27um and I've had him on the show to talk
47:29about they're broken they're broken when
47:31they graduate high school they're broken
47:34exactly and they're and they're not and
47:36not just the things you what you were
47:38describing to me that P pyramid I'm
47:41thinking about this it's a kind of maslo
47:45hierarchy of virtue and adulthood is
47:47what I'm hearing you say we have a you
47:49know maso's hierarchy starts with oh
47:52basic needs and then gets up to
47:54self-actualization I think it's useful
47:56but also kind of incorrect about the
47:59nature of happiness I think it actually
48:00gets human nature kind of wrong it's
48:03like kind of right but also wrong
48:05because you can find people who are have
48:09everything in the world and the
48:10wealthiest people Humanity has ever seen
48:12and they're actually miserable wrecks
48:14and you can find people who live in
48:16struggle and poverty and I've spent some
48:18time in places like mumai slums and um
48:23they're seen desperate poverty and HP
48:26and with more happiness and purpose than
48:29your typical ivy league
48:32parents so I don't think n's all that
48:35great necessarily or at least the
48:37stylized version we're all told but
48:38you're saying
48:39hey you need to start here with the with
48:43with action which builds agency and
48:46builds habits exactly just playing his
48:49back and then that becomes routine that
48:53becomes muscle memory that becomes
48:54second nature and it Frees calories and
48:57your cognitive capacity yes to pursue
49:00those more complex tasks and to take for
49:03granted the things that we can no longer
49:05I'm an employer i' I'm a small
49:07businessman and I will hire you before
49:11we even get to the explanation if you
49:14come in hold yourself with with with
49:18confidence and comportment look me in
49:20the eyes and start off by saying here's
49:23how I understand what you guys do here I
49:27love what you do here as opposed to
49:29coming in being on your phone and then
49:32talking about me me me what's your PTO
49:35it's like I mean we've literally had
49:37this happen um these are so-called
49:40educated people they come in for a job
49:42interview and ask us about PTO if you
49:45ask me about PTO you will not be hired
49:48what is
49:49PTO paid time off oh I see right okay if
49:54you're coming to me as an employer
49:57asking me about when and how I'm going
49:59to pay you to not work yes guess what
50:03I'm going to not pay you to not work
50:05exactly exactly so that's what I'm
50:08hearing everything about what you're
50:10describing yeah
50:14um I I think in some
50:18ways as I've because in coming into this
50:20conversation I was like I can't wait to
50:22have Katherine beat the beat the heck
50:24out of me and as I'm hearing you lay out
50:27your underlying
50:29philosophy I think one of the things
50:30that my son benefited from is I taught
50:33him all of this stuff this is it okay
50:34okay so stop there because that's it
50:37that's it so the thing is is that
50:41parents like you and look you know I
50:44love you and my wife and my wife yes yes
50:46so I love you and your wife I mean you
50:48and your wife are parents who really I
50:51said this to you at the time when we met
50:53I said listen you know I wish all
50:55parents were as invested as you have you
50:58and your wife have been in your son you
51:01you you you thought very carefully about
51:03what schools he should go to you pulled
51:05him out of one school and put him into
51:06another school I seem to remember you
51:08you that's how much you cared often
51:11parents my experience of parents over
51:12the many years I've been working is that
51:15they just send them to the local school
51:16and then they sort of forget that's
51:17where they go and that's it right now so
51:20I'm thrilled to meet parents like you
51:22and your wife because the fact is uh you
51:26you are both so engaged with your
51:29child's education you recognize that the
51:32type of school you've chosen for your
51:34child matters that you want your child
51:38to have the peers and the peers in
51:39particular yeah the peers the the
51:41teachers the environment that all of
51:44that will help to develop who your child
51:46becomes as an adult and you know that
51:48that matters so that's you are already
51:51halfway there just doing that and it's
51:53brilliant um the thing is what you just
51:56said
51:57is
51:58that too many parents who are from
52:02relatively privileged backgrounds you
52:04know what I mean is they they live in a
52:06nice part of town or they they have a
52:08nice house or
52:11whatever they send their children to
52:14more Progressive schools and then they
52:16make up for the deficits of the school
52:19they are the ones teaching their
52:21children the right sorts of values they
52:23are the ones perhaps hiring the math
52:25tutor or the the the the French chor
52:28they are the ones taking them on
52:30interesting holidays and to museums and
52:32art galleries and talking to them about
52:35uh the politics of the day around the
52:37dinner table they are the ones teaching
52:40their child an enormous amount and they
52:43don't realize that they're teaching
52:44their children all this stuff they don't
52:46they just think that's normal parenting
52:47and they don't realize it's not normal
52:49parenting um they don't realize that
52:51there are many parents out there who
52:52don't have the knowledge themselves to
52:54do it who perhaps don't even speak the
52:56same language as their child because the
52:57child is always speaking in English and
52:58they themselves speak another language
53:00from another country um they they don't
53:03realize that their child that that there
53:06are children who when they go home there
53:08is no dinner table there's just money to
53:10go and get Kentucky Fried Chicken they
53:12don't know or there's no Kentucky Fried
53:13Chicken at all they don't know that
53:15there are children being brought up in
53:16all kinds of broken homes with
53:18alcoholism and drugs and etc etc they
53:21don't realize that there are so many
53:24homes where there are no books that
53:26children are just stuck in front of a
53:28screen all of the time so the thing is
53:32if those children do not access that
53:36knowledge and those habits and those
53:38values at school they will never access
53:41them anywhere that's the thing
53:45so I actually think it's deeper than
53:48that yeah go on because
53:50um I I don't think the middle and upper
53:54middle class kids are getting it either
53:56well that's an interesting point so yeah
53:59I I think in I think I think there's two
54:02different forces that are having similar
54:04outcomes taking place you know I think
54:06that when you are well off which is to
54:10say you know middle class American or or
54:14or or British and and and or better and
54:17you think you've moved to a nice
54:19neighborhood and so your ZIP code school
54:21and that's the way that works in the US
54:23is this ridiculous anachronism of you go
54:25to the school and your ZIP code because
54:26you have to because you're being taxed
54:28for it either way which I oppose um well
54:31it's a similar thing here but yes go on
54:33you know yeah I know and I understand
54:35you're I understand understand Michaela
54:37is kind of like a charter school here in
54:38the US functionally like it's a you're
54:41getting run your way but it is a
54:42government school funding wise yes
54:45that's right so we think we've done the
54:50right thing we middle class parents
54:53who've managed to make enough money to
54:54be in a nice neighborhood and sent them
54:56to a good school yes and then they go to
54:59a place possessed by wretched nonsense
55:04yes don't learn anything have a culture
55:07that is a basically degenerate culture
55:09yes and I'm saying this I'm saying this
55:11with punch but it is a fact
55:15um and then we
55:17wonder what's happened to our politics
55:20and our culture here in this country
55:21it's like well you sent your kids to a a
55:25woke prison R by lunatics that's right
55:28and now you're complaining yeah it's
55:30just that look and I don't think that's
55:31just for the poor kids I think that's
55:33for all the kids yeah I think there's
55:35other things going on as well but I
55:37don't think it's exclusive to uh kids
55:40who don't have who have in some cases
55:43and you know the documentary um uh about
55:45your school highlights some of the
55:48parents this there's this great story
55:51moment in it of a of a I don't know
55:53where they're from they're from
55:53somewhere in Africa there's like if we
55:55can't get our son I think his name was
55:58Anthony into Michaela we're going to
56:00send him to
56:02Africa to for primary school or for
56:05whatever you're you're calling this age
56:06range um Secondary
56:09School it's like oh we're here we've
56:13made it to the United Kingdom and we're
56:14going to send our kid back to maybe it
56:16was Kenya I'm not sure they didn't say
56:18which country but somewhere in Africa
56:20yes that's crazy they're great parents
56:23you say that's crazy all my life
56:25throughout entire career I have given
56:27that advice to so many parents their
56:29child in whichever school I not NE not
56:32here but in other schools where I've
56:34worked in the inner city their child is
56:36spinning out of control and I tell the
56:38parents send him back to Jamaica send
56:40him back to Nigeria send him back to
56:41Kenya Etc and the there have been
56:44parents who have listened to me over the
56:46years and done that and their child
56:48always turns around in those countries
56:50so they were spinning out of control
56:52here they were getting involved in gangs
56:54they were you know their life would have
56:57been over had they stayed here they get
56:58sent back to whichever developing
57:01country it is and they turn out okay so
57:04that that is most definitely that that
57:06is a reality in the in the inner city
57:08which as you say is crazy how can that
57:10be happening right how can it be that
57:13you know it the the the the that the
57:16developed first world country is is not
57:19able to provide an education which is as
57:22good as the education that you would
57:24find in the third world country I mean I
57:27in fact just the other night we had a
57:29welcome um event well a a kind of open
57:32event for all possible perspective
57:34parents and um what I always say is I
57:38look out into the sea of families and I
57:40say to them listen some of you will be
57:43from your your families you know your
57:45your parents your grandparents and so on
57:47will be from another country and what I
57:50want to say to you is that our school is
57:54much more like the school in your
57:56countries than we are like the schools
57:59in the Local District here or in the
58:01whole of the UK um you know it could be
58:04Poland it could be India it could be
58:06China it could be Jamaica it could be
58:07you know anywhere in the Caribbean
58:09anywhere in Africa and our school is
58:11more like those schools and um and
58:13that's because we believe in adult
58:15Authority we believe in the teacher
58:17standing at the front of the classroom
58:18and leading the learning uh so all of
58:20our desks are in rows and the teacher
58:22stands at the front leads the learning
58:25in other schools you will find the desks
58:27are grouped together so that the
58:29children are leading the learning that's
58:31what's called child- centered learning
58:33as opposed to teacher-led learning which
58:35is what we do we don't make excuses for
58:37the children now um it's it's
58:40interesting what you said about the woke
58:42business in private schools and in more
58:43middle class schools I agree with you
58:46that is a more recent phenomenon I have
58:48to say it is so I'd say even the
58:51degradation of the school system began
58:53before the
58:542010s of uh let's just point the gun at
58:58our head and pull the trigger culturally
59:00that's taking place yeah I mean I'd say
59:02there's a much larger Force this is just
59:05the kind of poison icing on the cake of
59:08our breakdown I think yeah well when we
59:10opened in 2014 I had a sign outside the
59:14school that said private school ethos
59:17without the fees and at some point I
59:20took that sign down and I took it down
59:22because I thought we're nothing like a
59:24private school when we first open
59:26I thought yes that's what we are but I
59:29don't want to be like a private school
59:30anymore because the private schools have
59:32turned
59:34into they've turned into should I
59:36continue I
59:38don't yeah wait wait wait for the wait
59:40for the Bell to St go the private
59:42schools have turned into a woke mess so
59:45one of our top private day schools here
59:47in London they have abandoned the
59:50teaching of all Shakespeare they do not
59:52teach Shakespeare instead in London
59:55that's right instead they teach the
59:57works of um the drag queen uh panty
1:00:02Bliss so uh the drag queen panty Bliss
1:00:06his work is being taught at this school
1:00:08whereas McBeth is not being taught I I I
1:00:12I don't understand why I have to argue
1:00:15against this kind of insanity um and I
1:00:18could go on with the list of things dead
1:00:20white men are just are are practically
1:00:23banned in in some places certainly in
1:00:25America here it might be that they'll
1:00:27allow you a bit of Shakespeare maybe a
1:00:29little bit of Dickens but that'll be it
1:00:32um there's no sense of Cultural Literacy
1:00:35that our um Western world has been built
1:00:39on the the uh backs of and on the brains
1:00:44of many dead white men and that they're
1:00:47not all bad guys um that and even if
1:00:51they were bad guys like so our children
1:00:54they recite poetry at lunchtime
1:00:57they recite uh the poem If by rard
1:01:00Kipling I remember once um we had a
1:01:03journalist in the school and he was
1:01:05listening to all of these brown and
1:01:07black children in the inner city uh you
1:01:09know um reciting if and um and he said
1:01:14Katherine do you do this deliberately to
1:01:15be
1:01:18controversial and I said no what do you
1:01:20mean I mean I was genuinely kind of what
1:01:22do you mean and he said well it's
1:01:23Kipling and of course Kipling is
1:01:25considered to be a racist so why am I
1:01:26teaching these brown and black children
1:01:28Kipling well it's because the poem If
1:01:31totally encapsulate encaps encapsulates
1:01:34everything that we believe in you know
1:01:37if you believe in Triumph and disaster
1:01:39and treat those two imposters just the
1:01:41same the fact is when our kids go off
1:01:43and play football against another school
1:01:45we say look if you win celebrate but
1:01:48don't go crazy and if you lose it's not
1:01:50the end of the world because Triumph and
1:01:52disaster the fact is there's a million
1:01:55different lessons in the poem of if that
1:01:57teach our children the kinds of values
1:02:00and the kinds of principles and backbone
1:02:04that you need to be able to jump over
1:02:06any obstacle in life and that I think is
1:02:08the point of childhood is to teach them
1:02:11what to think so that they are they are
1:02:15given the kind of armor and the and the
1:02:17um the artillery to be able to go out
1:02:20there and and make something of
1:02:21themselves you know um my position is
1:02:25I'm never going to see child is a victim
1:02:26I don't care how difficult his life is
1:02:29uh if you see yourself as a victim you
1:02:31might as well give up right now you only
1:02:32have one life you get dealt a certain
1:02:35set of cards you either deal those cards
1:02:38or you spend your life complaining about
1:02:40the cards and yeah I I'm not interested
1:02:43in complaining I'm interested in
1:02:44empowering these kids to make something
1:02:46of their lives and um
1:02:49unfortunately um that is considered to
1:02:52be very controversial in the woke uh
1:02:53world of 2024 because everybody wants to
1:02:56be a victim everybody's talking about
1:02:59what about special needs what about
1:03:00mental health what about being black
1:03:02what about being poor what about not
1:03:04having a father I don't know whatever it
1:03:05is I don't care what the the issue is
1:03:08you've got the cards you've got now
1:03:09let's deal them and what's the best way
1:03:11of dealing them learning some algebra
1:03:13best so I here's the thing that's so
1:03:16great about what about you and what
1:03:18you're doing there's a lot of people
1:03:20myself included who can get can say
1:03:22these things and we should say them we
1:03:24need more people saying them you aren't
1:03:26just criticizing our you know
1:03:30self-imposed
1:03:32idiocy you're actually putting into
1:03:35action transformation for the lives of
1:03:38the kids that all of these so-called
1:03:42progressives like to pretend that they
1:03:44care about that's right they like to
1:03:46pretend that they care about these
1:03:47people you are actually transforming
1:03:50their
1:03:51lives in a repeatable way I actually
1:03:53want to get into some tactical question
1:03:56about how you're doing it because the
1:04:00um it's hard to build a thing it's hard
1:04:03to run an Enterprise of any kind to
1:04:07staff it to understand how to find the
1:04:09people who will take your cultural
1:04:12vision and make it their own but keep
1:04:14the core of it so that it actually works
1:04:17because you don't have the ability to
1:04:18clone yourself so I guess that's my my
1:04:21next question is for me who agrees with
1:04:25with I don't think there's been a thing
1:04:28you've said I disagree with for the
1:04:30viewers who who see who are see up to
1:04:33this point they like oh this lady's
1:04:35great um where can I find this obviously
1:04:38you don't have a Michaela School here in
1:04:40the US but how did you even build the
1:04:43school in 2014 where most of the people
1:04:46that go into education and get a degree
1:04:48in
1:04:50education I'm sorry they're not the
1:04:52brightest bulbs in the bunch to start
1:04:54some of them are bril
1:04:56but the brilliant ones often have their
1:04:58IQ turned into critical social justice
1:05:01gobble yeah so they get sucked into the
1:05:04esoteric
1:05:06nonsense that is also like the most
1:05:09anti-scientific thing ever because if
1:05:11you think there's any science in social
1:05:13science creating an external locus of
1:05:16control is the path to hell and
1:05:19everybody knows it and it's about the
1:05:20only thing in Psychology worth a damn so
1:05:23they're like the enemy of the only
1:05:26wisdom in
1:05:27Psychology claiming to be teaching
1:05:29learning how to be an educator so where
1:05:32are you getting these teachers to fill
1:05:34your school and how are you how are you
1:05:37finding them how are you training them
1:05:39how are you keeping them un rails and
1:05:42building a
1:05:43culture inside of the institution of
1:05:47Michaela that does the thing that you're
1:05:50doing yeah yeah it's really good of you
1:05:53to ask that because it is extremely
1:05:55difficult diffult um and it's extremely
1:05:58difficult because nobody thinks like
1:06:00this so as you say everybody's sort of
1:06:01Woka fied at University so what do you
1:06:03do um so uh I do get very bright people
1:06:08that's one thing um so a lot of my
1:06:11teachers were at Oxford or Cambridge one
1:06:14of the Russell group universities here
1:06:15which is the same as your ivy league uh
1:06:17universities so they are super bright um
1:06:21and
1:06:22then I am sort of known now of course
1:06:25the beginning I wasn't known you know
1:06:27well I was sort of known actually cuz
1:06:28I'd given this what I haven't said to
1:06:30your audience is that in 2010 I gave a a
1:06:33speech at the Conservative Party
1:06:35Conference here in in Britain and um I
1:06:39you know I'm not a member of the
1:06:40conservative party or anything but I
1:06:41just gave a speech there where I um was
1:06:43critical highly critical of the
1:06:44education system I got into a lot of
1:06:46trouble for it and I was essentially I
1:06:48had to leave my job and I was told I
1:06:50would never work in uh a normal public
1:06:53school state school ever again and
1:06:56that's why I ended up how dare you how
1:06:57dare you have wrong think exactly I was
1:07:00I was canel I was essentially canceled
1:07:02before cancel being canceled was a thing
1:07:04but that was I suppose the beginning of
1:07:05those the of these days you know 2010
1:07:08and then I um and then I had to set up
1:07:11my own school so I ended up setting up
1:07:13this charter school which is a free
1:07:14School uh which opened in 2014 but it
1:07:16took us three and a half years because
1:07:18there were so many people trying to stop
1:07:19us people would protest outside they'
1:07:21call me names we had to hire bouncers
1:07:23they'd try and drown me out when I was
1:07:24talking to par parents I mean there a
1:07:26whole long story there of the fight that
1:07:28was to try and set up the school um but
1:07:32then in order to get teachers on board
1:07:35so well I had my own networks you know I
1:07:37I knew some people myself and I got
1:07:39together with some people and because it
1:07:40took us so long to set up it was
1:07:42actually in a way a bit of a blessing
1:07:44because I was able to find other people
1:07:46who thought like me or at least somewhat
1:07:48like me and then we we started to set it
1:07:50up together and then when we eventually
1:07:53managed to open and so on I mean we only
1:07:56needed six teachers right because we
1:07:57only had 120 kids so it was very small
1:08:00to begin with over time um it does get
1:08:04more and more difficult in many ways
1:08:06because uh people are more and more woke
1:08:09uh I am a controversial figure so it
1:08:11means if PE if teachers are applying to
1:08:14come here there are already people who
1:08:17are sort of questioning some of their
1:08:19beliefs now they are very much um I they
1:08:24are quite woke when they come
1:08:26but they're willing to trust me to some
1:08:29extent and they're willing to uh give me
1:08:33a chance to try and persuade them to
1:08:35change their minds so I spend most of my
1:08:39time talking to my staff to try and
1:08:43change their minds about things so when
1:08:46I'm finished with you just you know soon
1:08:48in 45 minutes or whatever it is um I
1:08:50will go upstairs for an hour and a half
1:08:52with my whole staff body and do my
1:08:54weekly training with staff I see them
1:08:57every Monday for 20 minutes I see them
1:08:59for an hour and a half on a Wednesday
1:09:00after school I I see my new staff for a
1:09:03whole year for an hour and a half again
1:09:05on a Thursday after school after I've
1:09:08already spent an hour and a half with
1:09:09them on a on a Wednesday I have
1:09:11individual meetings with um uh staff
1:09:15constantly I have a box of biscuits a
1:09:17tin of biscuits in my uh of cookies in
1:09:20my um office and I'm always saying to
1:09:22them come and have some chocolate
1:09:23cookies and talk to me about your ideas
1:09:26so that I can try and persuade them uh
1:09:28to think differently you know uh
1:09:30yesterday I had a a fascinating con
1:09:32conversation with one of my young
1:09:34teachers uh she's a science teacher
1:09:36she's um she's uh 28 years old and um
1:09:41she was saying to me she loves yoga and
1:09:45she's been teaching for six years and
1:09:48she said you know the thing is is that
1:09:51um I you know Katherine you're always
1:09:53talking about small CA conservative
1:09:55value and how we need to take on board
1:09:56these values and how you know we need to
1:09:59sort of understand what what the school
1:10:00is doing and so on and and she said when
1:10:03I was growing up in my uh Slovakian
1:10:07family um I grew up with those same
1:10:10small C conservative values and that my
1:10:12parents would totally you know
1:10:14understand everything that you're saying
1:10:16and then I went into teaching she said
1:10:20and um I was so immersed in this
1:10:23victimhood culture and this woke culture
1:10:25that I just became like everybody around
1:10:27me and she said and the thing is I
1:10:29didn't notice but over time I became
1:10:31quite miserable I was very unhappy and I
1:10:35I didn't like my life and I thought that
1:10:38it was because I didn't I didn't have
1:10:39time to do my yoga she said you know
1:10:41because I was teaching all the time and
1:10:43teaching is demanding as a profession I
1:10:46didn't have time to do yoga and I
1:10:47thought it was because I wasn't doing
1:10:49yoga and she said um and it's
1:10:51interesting she said also she spoke
1:10:53about yoga to me because she said yoga
1:10:54you to be and is very much you know a
1:10:58philosophy of self-discipline of order
1:11:01of of um of selflessness and she said of
1:11:04course yoga has become woke aied over
1:11:08over the years but that that isn't what
1:11:10yoga is meant to be in any case I'm Sor
1:11:12I'm sorry to audibly grown having I um
1:11:16my wife and I got engaged in Thailand oh
1:11:21at a weeklong Ashtanga Yoga Retreat
1:11:24which aanga is like the Catherine verbal
1:11:28sing of yoga right it is like the
1:11:30Catholic mass of yoga it is the same
1:11:33every time it is perfectly balanced you
1:11:36do not deviate there is no l dah talk at
1:11:39the beginning you are breathing on a
1:11:41meter 4 seconds in and out and you are
1:11:43doing your primary Series right so to
1:11:46wreck yoga yes exactly so so she said to
1:11:50me fascinatingly she said I thought that
1:11:54I was unhappy because I didn't have yoga
1:11:57and she said the thing about coming here
1:11:58and she's only been here for four or
1:12:00five weeks or whatever it is she said
1:12:03it's so interesting because I'm happy I
1:12:06found happiness again and I haven't had
1:12:07it for six years and she said and I'm
1:12:10not doing any yoga at the moment she
1:12:12said it wasn't that I didn't have yoga I
1:12:14was unhappy because the values that give
1:12:17you purpose in life give you meaning in
1:12:20life had disappeared from my life
1:12:22because I was consumed and inundated in
1:12:25this culture of victimhood and wokeness
1:12:28you know where everybody's making
1:12:30excuses where nobody's holding anyone to
1:12:32account where there's no decency and
1:12:34kindness and working hard and all that
1:12:36stuff so she was saying to me
1:12:40essentially I'm so grateful to be here
1:12:42because my life has changed as a result
1:12:45now I hear that all of the time from my
1:12:48staff they they see the difference it
1:12:50makes with the kids they know what the
1:12:52kids were like at their old schools they
1:12:54know how poor the behavior was and so
1:12:57they trust me and then we I do lots of
1:13:00work in persuading them that the woke
1:13:04worldview they've been given is wrong so
1:13:07I am not doing what Elon says musk oh
1:13:11I'm not teaching them how to think I'm
1:13:13teaching them an alternative way of
1:13:15thinking right I'm giving them
1:13:17alternative knowledge they were never
1:13:19given that knowledge before and when I
1:13:22give them that knowledge it's for them
1:13:24to decide what what they want to do with
1:13:25it right now of course I give them
1:13:29theoretical knowledge I give them I give
1:13:31them books to read we discuss podcasts
1:13:34we read books but they also have the
1:13:37experience in the classroom both now and
1:13:40their experiences before you put all of
1:13:42that together and they change their
1:13:44minds that's what happens and I've
1:13:46watched year after
1:13:49year all of my teachers are young they
1:13:51come at 22 23 24
1:13:5325 they come and they leave me five six
1:13:55seven eight years later and then when
1:13:58they they come going oh my goodness
1:14:00Catherine you're a conservative you must
1:14:01be evil Etc I then talk with them over
1:14:05the years they change their minds and
1:14:06then when they leave they stand up at
1:14:09our goodbye lunch and they always give a
1:14:11speech saying something like I can't
1:14:13believe the person I was when I started
1:14:15here I'm a completely different person
1:14:16now I'm so grateful to the school for
1:14:19having demonstrated to me that there is
1:14:21an alternative way of seeing things um
1:14:24and I
1:14:25that is what is required across the
1:14:27country you know uh that the the problem
1:14:30that we all have is that it does take me
1:14:34years I mean look I'd say it takes me a
1:14:36good six months to get them to move to a
1:14:39certain stage it takes me a year to get
1:14:41them to move substantially but in that
1:14:45year I'm speaking to them every week for
1:14:49at least three and a half hours right I
1:14:51have an important question on this yes
1:14:54how and I I you know this show is a
1:14:58project of a nonprofit organization I
1:15:00founded that has a staff and I have had
1:15:04to hire and deal with people and fire
1:15:05people over the past decade plus
1:15:10um the things you're saying you have to
1:15:12convince your staff of which I I hear
1:15:14that I'm
1:15:15like oh god oh no is how do you know to
1:15:21hire someone who you actually have to
1:15:23convince about core principles like why
1:15:25would you hire them what is the thing
1:15:27that you're seeing in this
1:15:30teacher that makes you say I'm going to
1:15:33bet on changing their mind about their
1:15:36core values because of some other thing
1:15:39what's that other thing that led you to
1:15:40hire them in the first place these are
1:15:42really yeah these are really good
1:15:44questions and nobody asks them so well
1:15:47done you for asking them um they're
1:15:49really good questions
1:15:51so um I always say I'm looking for
1:15:54intelligent
1:15:55I'm looking for conscientiousness I'm
1:15:57looking for
1:15:58enthusiasm um and I'm
1:16:02looking for
1:16:04oddballs if you're an oddball you it
1:16:08tends to be that I attract oddballs you
1:16:10know that's how it is um we're all weird
1:16:13in some way at this school all of the
1:16:15staff in different ways but we all
1:16:17didn't belong outside of the outside of
1:16:20this building and that's why we've come
1:16:22here we've come here cuz we didn't quite
1:16:24fit fit in now I say I'm looking for
1:16:27that
1:16:28because if you didn't fit in anywhere
1:16:31then you have every motivation in the
1:16:33world to try and fit in here right and
1:16:36you're going to want to learn now if
1:16:38you're intelligent you're going to be
1:16:40interested in learning you're going to
1:16:43be intelligent people are always
1:16:45interested in learning they want to
1:16:46question they want to know they they
1:16:48just are if you're conscientious then
1:16:50when I give you a book to read you're
1:16:51going to read it if I give you a podcast
1:16:53to watch you're going to watch it you
1:16:55know you're you're going to
1:16:57engage um and enthusiastic what I mean
1:17:00by that is you love kids you love
1:17:03schools you love doing a good job and if
1:17:06you have that love for children you are
1:17:09going to want to do what's right by them
1:17:12and if you have me constantly telling
1:17:14you you're letting them down if you
1:17:15don't give them a detention you're
1:17:17letting them down if you don't insist on
1:17:19excellent homework Etc you're going to
1:17:21feel oh my goodness I don't want to let
1:17:23them down because I love the kids right
1:17:25so I find those characteristics look it
1:17:29doesn't work all the time sometimes I do
1:17:32hire somebody and in the end they say
1:17:35it's always them because I'm Relentless
1:17:37I I'm a dog with a bone right shocking
1:17:40shocking so I don't change it's them who
1:17:44they'll come to me and they'll say this
1:17:45just isn't the right school for me I'm
1:17:46not I I just don't fit here and I'll say
1:17:49it's okay I get it it's not we're not
1:17:51the right place for everybody and and
1:17:52that's fine you know so
1:17:55you know in the end it means I'm I'm
1:17:58left with a core set of Staff who
1:18:01absolutely love the school you know and
1:18:04they'd never go anywhere else and I have
1:18:05to say hat off to them because um
1:18:08they're very brave they lose friends
1:18:11when they come here um so many of them
1:18:14they're young they have a boyfriend or a
1:18:16girlfriend who they're dating when they
1:18:17arrive and then six months in a year in
1:18:21their boyfriend breaks up with them um
1:18:23and they come to me and they say I'm
1:18:24never going to find anybody because
1:18:26nobody in my in my age group thinks like
1:18:28me because they're all woke and so what
1:18:30am I going to do and it's it's a real
1:18:32problem actually for my staff and for me
1:18:35because I feel like I'm you know I feel
1:18:37like I'm destroying people's hope but
1:18:39you know happiness and I don't want to
1:18:41do that oh wait you're talking about
1:18:43that the teachers lose the relationship
1:18:45and then don't know where to go is that
1:18:47am I doing that right or the students
1:18:48yeah sorry I mean the teachers yeah yeah
1:18:50yeah okay yeah the dating Market is a
1:18:53disaster and even like I had one woman
1:18:55who worked here and of course she was
1:18:57changing her mind because that's what
1:18:58happens to everybody who works here they
1:19:00change their minds not because I make
1:19:01them change their minds because I give
1:19:03them knowledge and with that knowledge
1:19:05they then weigh it up and go you know
1:19:06what maybe she's right and um
1:19:10she she would come and say to me look
1:19:13but when my husband says this how should
1:19:15I respond with that I don't know and
1:19:16then when I'm arguing this what should I
1:19:18say and I said well this is what I would
1:19:19say that's what I would say and then one
1:19:21day she came to me asking me various
1:19:22things like that again and I said listen
1:19:25I think you need to stop having these
1:19:26discussions with your husband because
1:19:28one of these days he's going to turn
1:19:30around and he's going to say what
1:19:32happened to my wife where is the woman I
1:19:34married and she said oh my goodness he
1:19:37said that to me the other day and I said
1:19:40okay withdraw stop stop stop you need to
1:19:43stop right it was awful like I I I I I
1:19:46don't want to cause people to divorce I
1:19:48mean like it it is a very difficult um
1:19:52it's it's very difficult um
1:19:55I I I I feel very awkward about it
1:19:57because um I I do think that what we're
1:20:02doing is right and that the sorts of
1:20:03things that we think are right and I
1:20:07need people to understand that to be
1:20:09able to for the school to run and to
1:20:11work properly but it is true that I am
1:20:15responsible for a number of uh
1:20:17girlfriends and boyfriends leaving their
1:20:19Partners when they join Michaela I mean
1:20:22I um
1:20:26gosh there's so many things I can I can
1:20:29places I want to go together with you
1:20:30that uh so I think one of the things
1:20:34that um one of the things that I am
1:20:37struck by in this conversation and is
1:20:41that the the process you're describing
1:20:43the kind of
1:20:45leadership that you're talking
1:20:48about is very hard to replicate in it
1:20:52when the culture as a whole and the
1:20:55institutions of our society yeah have
1:20:57lost their mind and gone into suicide
1:21:00death cult land that's right and I and I
1:21:02know like I try to be reasonable
1:21:05sounding because I'm not necessarily
1:21:07reasonable by today's standards but I
1:21:08try to be reasonable sounding for the
1:21:10benefit of people who find harshness
1:21:13offputting and therefore don't get to
1:21:14hear things that they they would
1:21:16actually like to hear but when it comes
1:21:18to some of this it's like
1:21:21look the west and part
1:21:25particularly England and its child
1:21:29America
1:21:31produced the most full flowering version
1:21:34of human potential this planet has ever
1:21:37seen and it did so for
1:21:40reasons that are worth looking at
1:21:43because it actually happened and we are
1:21:47in this sort of ridiculous debate in our
1:21:49educational institutions trying to claim
1:21:52that the places that created the best
1:21:55environment for uh the marginal in all
1:21:58of human history the best environment
1:22:00for women that actively ended slavery in
1:22:03the case of Britain and America are
1:22:06somehow like these disgusting
1:22:08patriarchal colonialist imperialist
1:22:10disasters and actually the worst of all
1:22:12the possible worlds and we should land
1:22:14back blah blah blah blah blah I can
1:22:16recite their Creed their Creed is stupid
1:22:19it is a historical nonsense but we are
1:22:22in increasingly the minority in that
1:22:24belief
1:22:25among this type of people Average Joe
1:22:28hears woke stuff and says well that's a
1:22:30bunch of nonsense and especially here in
1:22:33America we have um we have a movement I
1:22:37just learned about because I'm 47 so I
1:22:38don't pay attention to dating markets
1:22:40anymore C called passport Bros talking
1:22:43about your teachers and their
1:22:44girlfriends and
1:22:46boyfriends and that is men who somewhat
1:22:49like the parents in your who who are
1:22:52facing choices of get into Michaela or
1:22:55send my kid back to
1:22:57Nigeria we now have young men who are
1:22:59saying I think I need to go abroad to
1:23:02find a mate who will in some way yes
1:23:07reflect yes basic principles that are
1:23:11aligned with health healthy psychology
1:23:15and happiness which is to say like oh
1:23:17valuing each other putting other people
1:23:19first but also not without not to to but
1:23:23but within constraints
1:23:24having kids loving your family having a
1:23:27big family all the stuff that used to be
1:23:29like what we are built to do yes yes
1:23:32that that absolutely right to make that
1:23:33connection absolutely right you have to
1:23:34go abroad to do everything you have to
1:23:37go abroad to go to school you have to go
1:23:39abroad to find your partner you have to
1:23:40go abroad to yeah like it's it's mad I I
1:23:44I I so many people are in that position
1:23:47now I
1:23:50just well I mean look I feel like we all
1:23:53need to fight the good good fight you
1:23:55know I'm doing it in my way you're doing
1:23:57it in your way all of us you know who
1:23:59are sensible are doing our best to to
1:24:03keep us all grounded um it is very
1:24:05difficult uh but but that is what gives
1:24:09you purpose in life you know well this
1:24:12is this is the question now so you call
1:24:14yourself
1:24:17traditional
1:24:20and at some point the tradition you're
1:24:23talking back talking about is far enough
1:24:26in the past that it isn't traditional
1:24:29anymore what does that mean it's not
1:24:31tradition meaning that no one remembers
1:24:34the tradition oh I
1:24:36see because it's been gone so long so
1:24:40how what is your North Star you know one
1:24:43of my favorite thinkers is Friedrich
1:24:45Hayek he has a paper called why I'm not
1:24:47a conservative and at the heart of it is
1:24:50essentially as the the notion that look
1:24:53to to be a conservative is to Simply
1:24:57want to conserve the past and that
1:24:59doesn't provide a normative framework
1:25:01for what I believe because sometimes the
1:25:04past is bad so how do I know what part
1:25:06of tradition is worth preserving and
1:25:08what part of tradition is worth
1:25:10abandoning how do you think about that
1:25:13how do you know what is your North Star
1:25:15because what used to
1:25:18work or knowing that it worked takes a
1:25:22discernment that isn't the same thing as
1:25:24I I am just going to do what my
1:25:25grandmother said but maybe it is but
1:25:28help me understand what your North Star
1:25:30is that's Discerning which tradition is
1:25:32worth preserving and which parts of
1:25:35tradition or you know aren't good and
1:25:39aren't worth
1:25:40preserving yeah it's a very good
1:25:42question you're good at these questions
1:25:44AR
1:25:44you it's kind of my job so I hope I
1:25:47would hope so um yeah it's it's it's a
1:25:51it's it's really good question so like
1:25:55the I suppose what people would say you
1:25:57know I'm not a Christian but the fact is
1:25:59the West was built on Christianity the
1:26:01reason why we all um uh think the way
1:26:05that we do is because of Christianity we
1:26:08take it for granted the idea that we
1:26:11might treat our neighbor like ourselves
1:26:13uh that we might want to um put others
1:26:18you know the sense of Duty towards
1:26:19others that I just spoke about all those
1:26:21small SE conservative values they they
1:26:23come from Christian
1:26:25um you know in Roman human dignity is
1:26:28aely radical non-materialist claim that
1:26:31requires a metaphysics exactly that
1:26:34exactly the inherent human dignity that
1:26:37you have a dignity that is just inherent
1:26:39to who you are just as being human as
1:26:41opposed to obviously the rich are better
1:26:43than the poor or obviously um you know a
1:26:47slave is below you know a a non-slave I
1:26:50mean in Roman times you know you had a
1:26:53child and you didn't didn't want the
1:26:54child you just went and put him out on
1:26:56the rocks to die and that was perfectly
1:26:58normal he would just die outside and
1:27:00nobody thought anything of it it was
1:27:01Christianity that changed the way in
1:27:03which we view uh the sanctity of human
1:27:06life um
1:27:08now we've been doing that for so long
1:27:12that um we've forgotten that actually
1:27:15it's Christianity we owe this to and I
1:27:18put myself in that bracket as well
1:27:20because I am not a Christian and so I my
1:27:23Val
1:27:24however are probably very close to
1:27:26Christianity I say probably very close
1:27:29because I can't say exactly they are
1:27:31things that I believe I feel
1:27:33instinctively but you know that quote
1:27:36about how people think that they are all
1:27:38brilliant and um unique in their
1:27:40thoughts but actually everything they
1:27:42think is from some defunct Economist you
1:27:44know there's a that's John Maynard kanes
1:27:46oh is it kanes right okay yes yes it's
1:27:49similar a brilliant man mostly wrong but
1:27:51that quote which I know quite well is
1:27:54spot on right well London School of
1:27:57Economics uh the ultimate uh
1:28:00technocratic planner type and the and
1:28:03the Contra to Hayak who I just mentioned
1:28:05so I've actually made this is a little
1:28:06bit of a digression I got into all of
1:28:09this including what we're doing right
1:28:10now because I made a series of rap
1:28:12videos which I know is your favorite
1:28:13genre right pitting pitting John mayard
1:28:17KES against fredri Hayek in their views
1:28:19of the economy oh they get used in
1:28:21schools like crazy you might even like
1:28:24to use them in your school if you have't
1:28:26oh um well and uh and they texbook grade
1:28:29they're fantastic people I've I've met
1:28:31students at conferences who were like I
1:28:32am an I'm I am a professor now because I
1:28:35saw your video your canes versus Hayek
1:28:37rap video and now I show my students and
1:28:40I think there's a whole host of reasons
1:28:42why music is potent for memory and
1:28:43recall and all kinds of things oh yeah
1:28:45yeah yeah I agree with you 100% 100%
1:28:47digress yeah yeah you know 100% I agree
1:28:50and do send me a link I'd love it um
1:28:53academic Scribbler who think themselves
1:28:55to be quite clever are usually the
1:28:57slaves of some defunct Economist is a
1:28:59slightly closer to the quote right okay
1:29:02well and so in in in that vein you know
1:29:06we all think that we're just brilliant
1:29:07but I recognize that I my thoughts are
1:29:10essentially stemming probably in the
1:29:11most part from a a judeo-christian uh
1:29:15Viewpoint that we have all inherited and
1:29:17that's just what we take for granted and
1:29:19um and the problem is of course is that
1:29:22we've all abandoned Christianity so so
1:29:24when you just said you just did what
1:29:25your grandmother did well everybody just
1:29:27went to church and everybody treated
1:29:29their neighbor as like themselves and
1:29:31whatever all that stuff just happened
1:29:33because you went to church every Sunday
1:29:35and everybody inherited those values and
1:29:38that way of thinking from their parents
1:29:39from their grandparents from their
1:29:41Church visits now that we've lost
1:29:43Christianity it's true that we're still
1:29:46running off the vestages so the fumes
1:29:49are still there in the in The Ether and
1:29:52we are still we're we've still got those
1:29:54fumes somewhat but we're losing more and
1:29:58more as time goes by the further we get
1:30:00as you say we've forgotten what the
1:30:01traditional is we've forgotten what it
1:30:04is to live that sort of life and so
1:30:06things are getting worse and worse and
1:30:08the end of the West is nigh I mean I you
1:30:10know I sound like some kind of crazy
1:30:12person with a placard standing outside
1:30:14um a subway station um but well you we
1:30:18have the um we have a aren't those
1:30:21beautiful flowers cut in a OAS
1:30:24that will soon be dead problem and so we
1:30:27can't replant the cut
1:30:29flowers but we can plant seeds in new
1:30:33soil yeah
1:30:35well what I'm trying to do what choice
1:30:37do we have that's what I think you're
1:30:39doing are you not you are planting new
1:30:41seeds in fresh soil that's that's
1:30:43exactly right and and my thing is is
1:30:46what you just said we don't like so when
1:30:48the right Wingers say but we need this
1:30:50we need that Etc I always think listen
1:30:52mate we're not in 9 55 we've got where
1:30:55we are we are where we are we we need to
1:30:58deal with the realities of now and do
1:31:00what we can and that is what I'm doing
1:31:01every day I'm dealing with the realities
1:31:03now and trying to do the best that I can
1:31:05um obviously the woke left crazies well
1:31:09they're just crazy I mean I don't I
1:31:10don't know what to do with them but
1:31:12they'll anti- breed themselves into
1:31:14non-existence because um political
1:31:16ideology tracks to some extent with
1:31:19genetics and they don't want to have
1:31:20kids so we just have to survive and we
1:31:23will win
1:31:24yeah right well maybe I mean um nobody's
1:31:29having kids I mean you know they're not
1:31:31having kids if you're sensible have more
1:31:33kids this is another theme of this show
1:31:36but yes having kids is the greatest
1:31:38thing in the world it is what we are
1:31:41built to do it's why we're here yes have
1:31:44kids and send them to a school like
1:31:46Michaela and if there isn't one uh make
1:31:48it in your home is what I say well I say
1:31:51the same thing you know people are
1:31:52always it's funny if I ever meet
1:31:54homeschoolers they're always uh
1:31:56apologizing to me and I always say don't
1:31:58apologize I think you're doing the best
1:32:00thing you can do for your child because
1:32:01if you don't have a school like Michaela
1:32:03to send your child to then it's
1:32:05absolutely your duty to homeschool
1:32:07because if you send your child to some
1:32:09awful School your child will be
1:32:12unrecognizable you know it's it's so
1:32:14interesting the other day when we had
1:32:15that open event and the families came
1:32:17and I was talking to them this black
1:32:19woman came up to me and she said um she
1:32:22had her her her year nine grade nine
1:32:25child with her and our children start
1:32:26here in year seven your equivalent grade
1:32:28seven and um she said oh do you remember
1:32:32me I came here 3 years ago with my
1:32:35daughter when she was in year six and we
1:32:37came to the same open Event then and I
1:32:40said yes yes I sort of remember yes and
1:32:42she said and I asked you all about the
1:32:43school and you spoke to me and d d da
1:32:46and she said but we didn't in the end I
1:32:48didn't send her here I I sent her to
1:32:51this other school and I'm really
1:32:54regretting that now I wish I'd sent her
1:32:56here because look at her now she used to
1:32:59be this quiet lovely child and she isn't
1:33:02that child anymore she's changed and I
1:33:05said yeah well you know teenage years
1:33:08that tends to happen and she said but I
1:33:11didn't know I didn't know what was going
1:33:13to happen and now I wish I'd sent her
1:33:15here and the girl was sort of there
1:33:18looking a bit Surly and I said do you
1:33:20want to change schools and she said no
1:33:22I'm happy where I am I want to be there
1:33:24that's where my friends are and I said
1:33:26to her mom I'm just going to say it's
1:33:27all about the friends well this is it I
1:33:29said to her mom listen you know if you
1:33:31move her she'll be so angry I don't know
1:33:34if she would ever settle here and
1:33:35frankly there aren't any places in that
1:33:37anyway but I mean even if there were
1:33:39places the it's too late you know and I
1:33:43said that to the mom I said you should
1:33:45have listened to me I I can't tell you
1:33:47the number of times I have conversations
1:33:49with people not necessarily about the
1:33:51school it could be friends of mine with
1:33:52kids people I've met who I tell them
1:33:55what to do they don't listen to me and
1:33:57then years later they say to me I should
1:33:59have listened and I say well yes but you
1:34:03know all I can do like my traveling
1:34:06salesman self is go around the world and
1:34:11go around Twitter and give advice and
1:34:13tell people what I know and hope that
1:34:15they listen to me that that's all I can
1:34:17do I don't know what else to do I mean
1:34:20uh you know we all have our cross to
1:34:22bear we we all try and do what we can to
1:34:25make the world into a better place
1:34:26that's what I'm doing and um you know
1:34:29there are a lot of people that don't
1:34:30like me for it but I everything I'm
1:34:32doing I'm trying to do good you know I'm
1:34:34trying to do right by people I'm not
1:34:35telling people they have to listen to me
1:34:37I'm trying to persuade people you know I
1:34:41um staying on this question of tradition
1:34:45for a
1:34:46moment we've got a a video we're working
1:34:49on right now looking back at the history
1:34:51of public school and it's to some it's
1:34:53lar through an American lens but I
1:34:55imagine this is quite similar for the
1:34:57UK and there's a narrative I want to
1:35:00play back this narrative for you to pick
1:35:02apart because maybe I'm getting some of
1:35:04this
1:35:05wrong um philosophically or
1:35:08structurally my narrative goes something
1:35:10like this the warmongers in Prussia in
1:35:14the aftermath of the failure uh
1:35:17confronting Napoleon construct a school
1:35:21system built on
1:35:24uh cultural
1:35:25conformity and um and and
1:35:30rigidness and um basically treating
1:35:33children like uh Factory farmed animals
1:35:36for cannon fodder that is their explicit
1:35:39purpose uh it is
1:35:43embraced
1:35:45by reformers in America at the turn of
1:35:48the last century uh people like Horus
1:35:50man who see this conform it some of
1:35:54which has some of these discipline and
1:35:59rigor traditional sort of values that I
1:36:02think you are doing in your school and
1:36:04that I think do have an important place
1:36:06in providing that foundation for kids
1:36:08but nevertheless they are the straight
1:36:11in the Crooked Arrow of man types horse
1:36:14man and the like they take this factory
1:36:18farming Russian prison
1:36:21system they put it into work in the
1:36:24United States displacing and destroying
1:36:27what had built our middle class which
1:36:30was a set of largely Christian one room
1:36:33School houses throughout the country
1:36:35that were free and bottom up and
1:36:36community-driven um and that lived you
1:36:39could even say parasitically but they
1:36:41were part of it off of the
1:36:43Christian ethos this man and the like um
1:36:48were not even if they were Christian
1:36:52that was not their North Star they
1:36:53Northstar was a kind of Conformity a
1:36:56kind of um National unity and I know we
1:36:59we haven't talked about that but I know
1:37:00that's part of your school
1:37:02too and that gives rise to a
1:37:05structure in public
1:37:07schooling that I do find personally to
1:37:10be an oppressive disaster and that has
1:37:13now been turned against our society by
1:37:17the academic types whose um ideology was
1:37:22seated in the top education
1:37:26institutions of the 20th century so man
1:37:28takes this Prussian ideology puts it
1:37:31into places like Johns Hopkins and
1:37:33others that train the teachers and we
1:37:37have this wave of Prussian inspired
1:37:40prisons that dominate the country and
1:37:42now that prison system has been taken
1:37:44over by the lunatics that were LED out
1:37:47of the insane asylum the wers so now
1:37:49they're they're they've they've added
1:37:51this second layer of disaster and it's
1:37:53all basically held in place by teachers
1:37:55union cronies who are essentially
1:37:57mobsters and racketeer people um and so
1:38:00I want to smash all
1:38:02that and I think we as parents need to
1:38:05see it for what it is and reject
1:38:08it what part of that do you do you find
1:38:11useful and agree with what part of it is
1:38:13like well yeah sure no but actually
1:38:15we've we're kind of militaristic and
1:38:17structured in ways that are useful so
1:38:19Prussia wasn't so bad after all how
1:38:21should how do you respond to my
1:38:24critique narrative my sort of John
1:38:26Taylor
1:38:27go uh you know free freeer freedom I
1:38:33want to end our conversation talking
1:38:34coming back to freedom but how do you
1:38:36respond to that because you some of what
1:38:39I've experien in spending time with your
1:38:41school and your work makes me think some
1:38:42of that maybe wasn't the worst thing in
1:38:44the world okay um it's really
1:38:47interesting
1:38:48again so
1:38:52um it's it's it's interesting because I
1:38:54think you're seeing it very much from a
1:38:56the way an American would see it um it
1:38:59sort of Give me liberty or give me death
1:39:01kind of thing
1:39:03[Music]
1:39:04um you um you're seeing only the model
1:39:10of Education uh from the way it's
1:39:13structured and you're not thinking about
1:39:14all the other bits that come along with
1:39:16it so uh yes Prussia that all happened
1:39:21um as you described uh um yes the old
1:39:24school houses were great
1:39:28but it is the case that there were more
1:39:30and more people right and when there's
1:39:33more and more people and you've got
1:39:35cities that are then created and large
1:39:37numbers of people in a city you can't
1:39:40have the little village with the
1:39:42schoolhouse and the the school head
1:39:44mistress and the teacher and or the two
1:39:46teachers and that's it in in a in a
1:39:49village I mean it can happen in a
1:39:50village but when you get large cities
1:39:53it's it's difficult so it I would just
1:39:56say can I just push back on that for
1:39:57just one thing which is simply to say
1:40:00the be one other I think fact that's wor
1:40:03that people don't realize is in America
1:40:07in the 1950s I don't think I think less
1:40:09than half of our 25-year-old adults had
1:40:13a high school diploma so we have this
1:40:17system but most of what people are
1:40:19learning isn't ultimately in school
1:40:20they're getting it from the culture and
1:40:22the family and the church and the rest
1:40:24yes and and we end up conflating which
1:40:26is a lot of our conversation we conflate
1:40:29the lessons of life in church and family
1:40:31with school yes um and so the notion
1:40:34that we can't have people in a city
1:40:38become functional literate adults
1:40:41without some Prussian inspired thing I'm
1:40:43I I don't buy that okay I'm not saying
1:40:45it has to be Prussian inspired I'm just
1:40:47saying you have to you have to do
1:40:49something it's a city now and then
1:40:52there's lots of and there's lots of
1:40:54people and so on now the schools that
1:40:58and what you're saying is important the
1:41:00Christianity the the the this we come
1:41:03back to what I was saying at the
1:41:04beginning about Jonathan height the the
1:41:06trust the societies that you're talking
1:41:10about like you say you didn't have a
1:41:12high school diploma but you learned a
1:41:14hell of a lot from home and from church
1:41:16and so on
1:41:18now if you have that culture and that
1:41:22culture remains and let's say you don't
1:41:24have any big cities let's say
1:41:25everybody's then just in these small
1:41:27villages and that's how you you know you
1:41:29you develop well fine that's great it
1:41:33the kind of education we do here I would
1:41:35say is much
1:41:37more um is is it would be more familiar
1:41:41to what kind of Shakespeare context so
1:41:43think of the kinds of schools that
1:41:45Shakespeare would have been at um where
1:41:48knowledge was uh prized where uh
1:41:53children were being taught uh knowledge
1:41:56as opposed to uh this idea of thinking
1:42:00how to think and critical thinking and
1:42:03uh Philosophy for five-year-olds and you
1:42:06see you've left out all of the content
1:42:08you're just looking at the structure and
1:42:11saying the state is bad and uh freedom
1:42:14is good and I agree with you I mean I'm
1:42:16not I'm very much about a small state so
1:42:18I agree with that point it's just that
1:42:20it's only one point when it comes to
1:42:23describing what's gone wrong everything
1:42:24you say about the unions absolutely 100%
1:42:26agree so I'm agreeing really with what
1:42:30you're saying but you're just leaving
1:42:31out you're leaving out the fact that
1:42:33Christianity has died you're leaving out
1:42:36the fact that um the adult of being in
1:42:38the position of authority the um the
1:42:42idea of uh knowledge being Central to
1:42:44the classroom and teaching what to think
1:42:47not teaching how to think that this idea
1:42:50of skills doesn't make any sense it's
1:42:52knowledge over skills and you get skills
1:42:54through knowledge that's how it works
1:42:57that that all of that you you can't
1:42:59leave that aside so John dwey came along
1:43:03and said oh you know we need to be
1:43:05Progressive that changed the nature of
1:43:07American schools right and how things
1:43:09were being taught and what was being
1:43:11taught um so yes it's a combination of
1:43:15that pressure model the state is going
1:43:17to do everything for you people no
1:43:19longer taking responsibility for their
1:43:21neighbors for their friends for their
1:43:22grandp parents and so on combined with
1:43:25this Dewey way of oh you know we're not
1:43:28teaching knowledge anymore we're
1:43:30rejecting traditionalism of the 19th
1:43:32century and the way in which children
1:43:33learn there you put that all together
1:43:37and then you combine that with the
1:43:38welfare state that expanded massively
1:43:40totally destroyed the black communities
1:43:42in uh America but also here in Britain
1:43:45um and you know it's it's a whole bunch
1:43:50of things it's it's it's the
1:43:53and and and you do that all together all
1:43:55at the same time and then you end up
1:43:57with Compton you know like that
1:44:00is you end up with Compton you also end
1:44:03up with uh Harvard University protesting
1:44:06in favor of Hamas that's right that's
1:44:09exactly right that's right so like it
1:44:11it's like that the the pathologies
1:44:15aren't just like and we didn't talk
1:44:18about it but I'll touch on it for
1:44:19another like you know he didy rap
1:44:22culture is De
1:44:24and Harvard is degenerate it's
1:44:27degeneracy on two different sides of the
1:44:29spectrum and frankly the Harvard
1:44:30degenerates I think are harder to
1:44:33fix yeah well I mean I don't know you're
1:44:36not going to fix you know the Black
1:44:38American Music Industry where people are
1:44:40becoming billionaires I mean these
1:44:42leftists who support this kind of music
1:44:44meanwhile they'll you know I thought you
1:44:46were meant to hate these billionaires
1:44:48exploiting the poor which is exactly
1:44:50what's going on so that my kids listen
1:44:52to that music and and get their lives
1:44:53destroyed while these rich white men who
1:44:56you're meant to Hate by the way are
1:44:58billionaires and flying around in
1:44:59private jets off the off of my kids uh
1:45:02you know disaster of listening to that
1:45:04type of music or being addicted to
1:45:06Snapchat or Instagram because those guys
1:45:08are getting rich I you know I could go
1:45:10on forever about that sort of thing and
1:45:12the left totally ignore that because
1:45:14they're not actually interested in
1:45:15helping children like my children
1:45:18they're interested in feeling good about
1:45:20themselves so they put on a Palestinian
1:45:21scarf or they put on a a blackbox on
1:45:25Instagram or they um you know go
1:45:27marching on some protest and say look at
1:45:30me I'm such a good person meanwhile do
1:45:32they do any charity work do they are are
1:45:35they giving back to society and
1:45:37sacrificing are they doing anything good
1:45:39with their lives I mean this um yeah
1:45:42it's uh it is I mean look at the end of
1:45:45the day it's human nature I when I was
1:45:4820 years old I was a lefty I was stupid
1:45:50I said all sorts of dumb things you know
1:45:53it takes time over the years to come to
1:45:55realize that one is wrong about stuff
1:45:57and to change your mind um but
1:46:00unfortunately nowadays it's very hard
1:46:02for them to even see that there's an
1:46:04alternative way of thinking because um
1:46:08because there's no you know the
1:46:11universities don't have any conservative
1:46:13professors the teachers in in schools
1:46:15are all woke aied uh the culture that
1:46:18they that they are immersed in in the
1:46:20media is um is is entirely anti
1:46:24everything that I believe in and you
1:46:26would believe in so you know that church
1:46:29house it wasn't just the structure of
1:46:32the church house that made that church
1:46:33house beautiful it was what the teacher
1:46:35was teaching her children it was the
1:46:37values that she held dear and that their
1:46:39parents held dear and that everyone took
1:46:42for granted and they assumed that those
1:46:43values would be there forever and
1:46:46unfortunately you know we are cutting
1:46:48the branch off we sit on that branch and
1:46:50we're cutting it off you know like we no
1:46:53idea and I recognize that I'm sort of
1:46:55part of the problem I do recognize that
1:46:57like I you know I don't know life is
1:47:00long we'll all um we'll you know we we
1:47:04all have to find our way you're the
1:47:06closest thing to part of the solution of
1:47:07just about anybody I've met so okay as
1:47:10we come to a close um I want to come to
1:47:13something that you talk about that we
1:47:15started with in a way which is the
1:47:17question of Freedom now um as I've sort
1:47:21of alluded to
1:47:23and and said about the rap videos I
1:47:25can't I I I went to I went to film
1:47:27school I I worked in television for for
1:47:3012 years before getting into Big Ideas
1:47:32and
1:47:33stuff and my entry point back into the
1:47:36academic as an adult with a long bus
1:47:39commute was reading Friedrich Hayek and
1:47:42free market stuff and becoming very much
1:47:43a hardcore libertarian and a Libertarian
1:47:46as you know and as you
1:47:48criticize values Freedom as the primary
1:47:51as the primary um almost the singular
1:47:54value or virtue Jonathan height talks
1:47:56about this in the Righteous Mind he
1:47:58notes that Libertarians classical
1:48:00Liberals are actually as unidimensional
1:48:03as left-wingers like left wiers care
1:48:06about care and Libertarians care about
1:48:10uh if I remember this correctly like
1:48:11oppression Liberty and conservatives
1:48:14more traditionalist people actually have
1:48:16the full pallet of of moral of moral
1:48:19concerns is the the way he likes to put
1:48:21it all these different dimensions uh
1:48:24sovereignty and and loyalty and and and
1:48:26um um sanctity and these other things uh
1:48:30discussed these are all part of the
1:48:34picture so what I have noticed in myself
1:48:38as I've aged and hopefully gotten a
1:48:41little wiser isn't that I've become less
1:48:43libertarian per se but it it it has come
1:48:47to be that oh
1:48:49wait like all systems even Matt down to
1:48:53ma the mathematics of
1:48:55them the logic of individualist Liberty
1:48:59makes a set of institutional
1:49:02assumptions in which it cannot function
1:49:07without the respect for the individual
1:49:09we've talked about this already
1:49:11because they do seem to
1:49:16require a context that sets the rules of
1:49:19the game for freedom to work um so how
1:49:23I there's a great there's a couple
1:49:26quotes I want to read one of which I saw
1:49:28is on the wall of your school Virginia
1:49:30wolf Freedom comes from
1:49:32self-control there's two others and then
1:49:35and then I'm going to open the floor up
1:49:37for you to have at it the second one is
1:49:40from Aristotle freedom is a property of
1:49:44the will which is realized through truth
1:49:46freedom is given to man as a task to be
1:49:50accomplished and my final one
1:49:53which former versions of myself would
1:49:55push on that now I think to be
1:49:57profoundly true but but challenging
1:50:00because it almost seems like a
1:50:01contradiction this is from Pope John
1:50:03Paul II freedom consists not in doing
1:50:07what we like but in having the right to
1:50:11do what we
1:50:14ought which sounds like well wait
1:50:17freedom to do the right thing is that
1:50:18even Freedom um but I'm now realizing no
1:50:23it that is profoundly true and simply
1:50:26valuing Freedom just doesn't seem like
1:50:29enough the floor is yours respond how
1:50:32you like yeah well that's absolutely
1:50:34right you know that that the freedom to
1:50:38do what we what is right
1:50:41like what is life about it's not just
1:50:45being free to just do anything like it
1:50:49it's you know it's about finding purpose
1:50:53it's about living a life that is uh
1:50:57worthy of dignity you know it it's about
1:51:01finding something a purpose in life
1:51:04where you can contribute where you can
1:51:05look back at 85 and say I did something
1:51:08with my life I I contributed I I made
1:51:11the world into a better place I made
1:51:13myself into a better person I left
1:51:15something behind in terms of children
1:51:16like you were saying or something you
1:51:18left something you know which is why a
1:51:20housewife and a mother
1:51:23who's never worked can have the most
1:51:25extraordinary life because she's raised
1:51:27her children and made the world quite
1:51:29hard and has worked quite well indeed
1:51:31but I mean you know in a job yeah you I
1:51:33know I mean the thing is is
1:51:37that the the libertarian position I'm
1:51:40highly critical of because uh you're not
1:51:44just meant to be free to do anything and
1:51:45I understand why we're fighting for
1:51:47freedom of speech now it's absolutely
1:51:48right that we should because obviously
1:51:50it's under threat and it is one of the
1:51:52great bastions of Western Society
1:51:54without it we're finished so I
1:51:57absolutely 100% believe in freedom but
1:52:00the the freedom needs to be
1:52:04um constrained is the wrong word but it
1:52:06needs to be uh carefully managed and we
1:52:11need to think about look you said it
1:52:15without shame we can't just we can't be
1:52:17free because the shame and the social
1:52:21norms are what keep us in line if we're
1:52:24free we'll all just kill each other like
1:52:26that you can't just be free there's more
1:52:29to life than freedom and I know that
1:52:32Americans will listen to this and think
1:52:33that's how can you say that
1:52:36but you can't just let Todds be free
1:52:39they will kill each other we have a duty
1:52:42as adults to teach them how to behave
1:52:44that last quote of yours freedom to
1:52:46behave as we ought to behave that is
1:52:48what we're teaching children um Elon is
1:52:51wrong when he says cuz he's thinking
1:52:53like an American and he thinks freedom
1:52:54of speech freedom of speech he's all
1:52:56about that but I don't think PE I think
1:52:58people who think like that they haven't
1:53:00thought it through properly and frankly
1:53:02it's the libertarian who gives um
1:53:06permission to the woke to take over
1:53:09because the libertarian says be free do
1:53:11whatever you like and then they say well
1:53:12we all want to be woke well okay then
1:53:14you asked for it right um be free
1:53:17teachers teach whatever you like okay
1:53:19then you asked for it right like we
1:53:22can't think you're giving Libertarians
1:53:23too much credit in our institutions we
1:53:25we have always been uh outcasts like
1:53:28yourself no but it's that thinking so I
1:53:31when I say Libertarians you know it's
1:53:33that libertarian thinking that has
1:53:35permeated everything where we uh where
1:53:39the
1:53:41conservatism uh that you say the people
1:53:43those people in the middle who un who
1:53:45understand what sanctity is the idea of
1:53:48the Sacred they understand family and
1:53:51faith and FL flag and they value these
1:53:54things right and they know how precious
1:53:57traditionalism is and how you mustn't
1:53:59throw the baby out with the bath water
1:54:02and how we must protect ways that have
1:54:05gone before us and the shoulders of
1:54:07giants that we stand on we have to
1:54:10protect them because they are precious
1:54:13and they are they they are fragile right
1:54:17that's what the conservative understands
1:54:19the libertarian I don't think
1:54:21understands that he's far too rash and
1:54:23look I am somebody who's a real Rebel
1:54:27and I'm you know I I stand up when other
1:54:30people sit down and so on I get that so
1:54:32I get the the the kind of instinct of
1:54:34the libertarian but we must conserve as
1:54:38the conservative does and the
1:54:39libertarian doesn't do enough of
1:54:41that the
1:54:44um to we have spent time together
1:54:47beating up on things that we both find
1:54:49abor I want to open up a fig Leaf
1:54:51perhaps to and and and and help one of
1:54:56the things I'm trying to Grapple with
1:54:59is you your
1:55:02school provides extreme amounts of
1:55:05structure in which I think the freedom
1:55:07to actually become what you are capable
1:55:10of can flourish I I I I am I think it's
1:55:15amazing but there is this there is a lot
1:55:18of diversity of behavior not all in our
1:55:21and way ways and
1:55:23modes and it does strike me that
1:55:28Michaela might not be for
1:55:30everyone and that more
1:55:33broadly the the tradition worth
1:55:38conserving has is like a bell curve and
1:55:41at the edges of the curve is where the
1:55:44productive progressivism in our
1:55:48tension probably rightly lives they're
1:55:51the abolitionist of slavery they're the
1:55:54reformers that actually say hey the
1:55:56stuff inside that part of the bell curve
1:55:59actually sucks let's stop doing that and
1:56:03it seems like what it seems like we have
1:56:06to somehow have a dualism that says the
1:56:11Norms are good being shamed for being
1:56:14unhealthy is good because we don't want
1:56:17there to be no cost to doing
1:56:20bad and yet all Al be open and have
1:56:24space for the critic so long as the
1:56:26critic doesn't flatten the pole place
1:56:28how do you think about the tension
1:56:30between the critic the reformer the
1:56:32progressive and the positive role they
1:56:35can play have played and the norm the
1:56:38center of the bell curve the part that
1:56:41is worth conserving and standing upon
1:56:43the wall as um uh um Buckley said
1:56:47declaring no stop no more no more change
1:56:51how do you balance that and and and we
1:56:53can sort of let that be the yeah well
1:56:56yes because I need to go and do the
1:56:57training for my staff so I don't have
1:56:59long um you know
1:57:02uh the thing is that
1:57:05um
1:57:07uh I think we probably had it at some
1:57:10point you know maybe in the 90s or I
1:57:12don't know like it's funny because in
1:57:15those days I just took it all for
1:57:17granted you know I I thought that was
1:57:19normal I didn't realize how much
1:57:23yeah I didn't realize how much things
1:57:24could change um for the worse you know I
1:57:27had no idea and that's because we don't
1:57:29recognize how fragile uh what we've got
1:57:32here in the west is um and and now like
1:57:36you say there's so many young people who
1:57:37don't even know what the '90s was you
1:57:39know because they were kids then um and
1:57:43it
1:57:43it's look it I I don't know I don't know
1:57:47how you how you get there and then stay
1:57:49there we we haven't stayed there we now
1:57:51need to get make our way back there so
1:57:53that's the challenge actually the
1:57:55challenge is how we get back to
1:57:571997
1:57:58um um and so you know you must join me
1:58:02in building a time machine and we will
1:58:04find a
1:58:06way I asked that this is very quick this
1:58:09Show's called Dad Saves America because
1:58:11I believe that as a man our role as
1:58:15father is maybe the most heroic thing we
1:58:17can do and that I'm an American so I
1:58:20want to save America and
1:58:22um and so I think that's the role I get
1:58:24to play that has the best chance of
1:58:26contributing to that meaningfully how do
1:58:28you think about your role and I'll say
1:58:30this more broadly in the story of the
1:58:32West well I'm a teacher you know we
1:58:36teach that's what we
1:58:38do so me being my traveling salesman in
1:58:42my little bag and I go around and I try
1:58:43and teach whether it's via Twitter or at
1:58:45a conference or um on a
1:58:48podcast that that's what I do we teach
1:58:53Catherine this has been a pleasure thank
1:58:56you for being on Dad Saves America thank
1:58:58you for having me

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