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Karren Brady: How To Win At Entrepreneurship & Love (at the same time!) — Transcript

by The Diary Of A CEO · 15,428 words · 2,191 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

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0:00Could you do me a quick favor? If you're
0:01listening to this, please hit the follow
0:02or subscribe button. It helps more than
0:04you know. And we invite subscribers in
0:06every month to watch the show in person.
0:07I remember my first away game and I
0:10turned up and I said, "Oh, hi. Could you
0:11tell me where the boardroom is?" And he
0:13said, "Dear, you don't understand. The
0:15director's wives go in the ladies room."
0:16And I said, "No, I don't think it's you
0:18understands. I am the managing
0:20director."
0:21Baroness Brady. [music]
0:22She's one of Britain's most successful
0:24business women. I'm the kind of person
0:25that never hears the word no. I hear
0:28find another way to get what you want.
0:30Leadership is about vision and your art
0:32as a leader is to persuade people to
0:35believe in your vision.
0:36I remember reading the story about your
0:38son turning to you on holiday and
0:39saying, "I wish your Blackberry would
0:40blow up."
0:41Working mother is the best title for me.
0:43Sometimes you don't get it right. You
0:45can only do the best you can do.
0:47Ambition is that spark. It's that fire
0:51inside of yourself that won't let you
0:53settle for anything other than what you
0:56think you deserve and what you want.
0:58What you would say to those young women
1:00that are starting out in their career?
1:02I would say,
1:05so without further ado, I'm Steven
1:07Bartlett and this is the Diary of a CEO.
1:09I hope nobody's listening, but if you
1:11are, then please keep this to yourself.
1:14[music]
1:21Karen,
1:22hello Stephen. [laughter] Um,
1:23I I've spent the last couple of days
1:25listening to your interviews and reading
1:27a lot of sort of interviews you've done
1:28in newspapers and things like that. And
1:30as I got further and further and further
1:32further into your story and further into
1:33your childhood, there was this this
1:34question which I wasn't able to answer
1:36despite all that I' I'd read. And it's
1:38you clearly from a very young age had
1:40this real deep desire to have freedom
1:43which resulted in this independence and
1:45also resulted in this wonderful young
1:47person who had this ability to like
1:48stand up for themselves. But where did
1:50this deep desire to be free from the
1:53control of others where does it come
1:54from?
1:56I don't know. I mean, my mother always
1:58tells a story that um when I was four
2:01that um my grandfather was looking after
2:04me at home and um my parents had this
2:06drinks cabinet and it was sort of open
2:09down and it had all these like bottles
2:11of beautiful bottles and little glasses
2:13and things
2:14and she tells this story and I don't
2:16remember it at all, but I got a chair
2:19and I climbed up and I opened the drinks
2:21cabinet and they had these little sherry
2:23glasses and I poured all little bits of
2:25liquid from it and and I started to
2:27drink it and my grandfather said, "Um,
2:30don't do that. You'll be sick." And I
2:32said, "You leave me alone. I'll do what
2:33I want. I won't be sick." And then, of
2:35course, drank half of the [laughter]
2:38of the drinks cabinet. Um, and wasn't
2:42sick. [laughter]
2:44And my mom said, "You were always
2:46defiant. You always had your own mind.
2:50Wanted to do your own thing. Uh, thought
2:52you knew best. Cut my own hair when I
2:55was six. We had a um a school photo the
2:58next day and I decided the only person
3:00who could cut my hair was myself and you
3:02should see the picture. My fringe sort
3:03of starts here and sort of goes like
3:05that and it's got all lumps cut out of
3:07it. I guess I kind of thought if I
3:08didn't stand up for myself, no one
3:10would. And I was very happy to stand up
3:12for myself. And you know, in life as you
3:15go through life, you one of the things
3:17you realize is that if sometimes you've
3:19got to find your backbone and you've got
3:21to use it and simply putting one foot in
3:24front of the other and keep going is one
3:26of the philosophies I've had in my life.
3:27But no, I always define, always stood up
3:30for myself, never took anything lying
3:33down. Yeah. I don't know. define feels
3:37like the perfect word. Um, and I trying
3:39to figure out where it came from because
3:41usually when I sit with my guests, they
3:42can like even if it's incorrect, they
3:44can look back in hindsight and pinpoint
3:46a moment, some kind of trauma or pain or
3:48negative experience which shaped them to
3:50be a bit of an anomaly in some way. So I
3:52was like, where did this defiance come
3:53from? And I couldn't quite figure it
3:55out.
3:56I don't know. I I have no idea. It's not
3:59part of any trauma that happened to me.
4:01I just I guess I always felt that I had
4:06something to say and even at a young age
4:09I wanted to say it and I didn't care who
4:12heard it or how you know I just felt I
4:16wanted to stand up for myself. I I have
4:18no idea. I've never really thought about
4:19it. I know it's definitely a part of my
4:22personality trait that this defiance,
4:25this I'm going to prove people wrong.
4:27I'm going to do what I want to do how I
4:29want to do it. Uh, but I never really
4:31thought about where it came from.
4:33What's this story about your first day
4:34of school and your mom being concerned
4:36that you might be shy and then finding
4:37out that you [laughter] chucked some kid
4:38off the chair?
4:40Well, there's another I mean, I don't
4:42remember any of these stories, but my
4:43mom said the first day of school, she
4:44was very worried if I would be shy or
4:47would I want to go home or whatever. And
4:49she went to pick me up from school and
4:52she said to the teacher, "How was
4:53Karen?" She said, "Oh, your daughter's
4:55car. She'd always be shy." She said,
4:56"Karen, shy?" She said she she went up
4:59to a boy in a chair and she went,
5:00"That's my seat. Get off." [laughter]
5:03So, but I don't remember it. I don't
5:05remember any of these things. But all
5:06these little stories, they always have
5:08one thing in common that I had this sort
5:09of level of defiance and this, you know,
5:12determination to to stand up for myself.
5:15One of my suspicions when I was trying
5:17to piece together this this little bit
5:19of defiance puzzle was um reading about
5:21your dad and how much of a sort of
5:23hardworking autonomous man he was and
5:27how hard you said he worked. I was
5:29wondering if they had given you a bit of
5:31a kind of a void of independence when
5:32you were growing up that led you to
5:34create this kind of independence in
5:36yourself. Was were they like present and
5:37were they on you?
5:39No, definitely not on me in that way.
5:41They weren't, you know, tiger parents
5:43pushing you to the front. Although my
5:44grandmother used to always say, "Be
5:46first because it's the best place to
5:47be." She used to always say that to me.
5:49So my dad left school at 14, didn't have
5:51much of an education and worked really
5:53hard to get where he wanted. And I guess
5:55the lesson from him was, you know,
5:58nothing compensates for hard work. And
6:00if you don't try, you know, if you don't
6:02try something, you'll never know how
6:03good you are at something. So I think
6:05maybe that sheer resilience came from
6:09his model of working hard, doing your
6:13best, trying everything, pushing
6:15yourself forward.
6:16And would he give you advice? Would he
6:19impart knowledge onto you or was it you
6:21learning by his example of watching him
6:23work?
6:24I think almost definitely the the the
6:26second one. I I don't remember him ever
6:28sitting me down and saying, "Do this and
6:31you you know your life will be better or
6:33more enriched." I think it was just
6:35learning from examples from seeing the
6:38hard work and you know we went from
6:41Edmonton to a little bit further up to
6:43another little place in Edmonton to a
6:45bit further up and our lives sort of got
6:47slightly better and my dad's desire was
6:51to give my brother and I a really good
6:52education cuz he hadn't had one. So he
6:55really wanted us to have a great
6:57education cuz he felt that was a big
6:59part of what was missing in his life.
7:01And I guess he maybe he thought if you
7:03have a great education, you don't have
7:04to work so hard. You don't have to start
7:06so much at the bottom. I think that was
7:07a real driver for him.
7:09And your mother?
7:10My mother was a housewife. Okay.
7:12So she had no ambitions for work. Very
7:16smart woman, very nurturing in
7:18everything that she did. My dad was away
7:21working a lot. So she was a lot on her
7:22own. Uh but equally funloving and
7:26stylish and you know spoke her mind too.
7:30And you at this age didn't have big
7:33ambitions for what you wanted to do in
7:34the future in terms of specific
7:36ambitions about career options. There's
7:38a quote which I read where you said, "I
7:40wasn't gifted in anything. I wasn't
7:41academic. I wasn't the best at anything.
7:43In fact, I was a very average child who
7:45really didn't know what she wanted to do
7:46or where she was going to go. The
7:48greatest gift that my parents gave me
7:50was self-esteem."
7:51Yeah. I think you're very lucky if you
7:54know what you want to do. If you have a
7:57vocation or a calling at a young age, I
8:00think that is a remarkable thing that
8:02you should you should channel. I didn't
8:05know what I was good at. I didn't feel I
8:07was particularly good at anything. I it
8:09wasn't as though I had a particular
8:13panache for, you know, anything. And
8:17uh I wasn't particularly ambitious, but
8:19I know I wanted to do something with my
8:21life, but I didn't know what. And I
8:24think ambition is something that sort of
8:25creeps up on you slowly when you realize
8:27you're good at something and you think,
8:29"Oh, actually I'm quite good at this."
8:31And then you think, "Actually, I might
8:32be the best person in this room at this
8:35or I might be the best person I know at
8:38this." And that inspires you to to to
8:41keep going. But I left school at 18. I
8:44had O levels and A levels as they were
8:45in those days, but I had no
8:46qualifications. But what I had worked
8:49out something really important and that
8:51is I'd worked out my core values. So at
8:5518 I had worked out that I was
8:58ambitious, I was determined and I had
9:02integrity. And core values are the
9:04things that sort of make you who you
9:06are. They are the things that lead you
9:08to make the decisions you make for
9:10yourself and the way you make decisions.
9:13And 18, I knew those things about
9:14myself. And at 52, I think they're still
9:16my core values. And armed with those
9:19things, I set out to get a job. And the
9:23one thing I wanted for my life was
9:25independence. I wanted to say what I
9:27wanted to do and how I wanted to do it
9:28and when I wanted to do it. And that's
9:31predominantly because I'd been at
9:32boarding school from a very early age.
9:34Going back to my father wanted to give
9:35me the best education. He thought
9:37boarding school education was probably
9:39the best. And at boarding school, you
9:41get up when you're told, you eat what
9:42you're told, you wear what you're told,
9:43you do what you're told. And I'd had
9:45enough. And I knew that independence
9:48only really came when you had your own
9:49money. And the problem is 18, I didn't
9:51know how you made money. But I kind of
9:53worked out almost everyone works for
9:56someone even before they work for
9:58themselves. So I went out and I got a
9:59job. and at 18 with no qualifications
10:02other than O levels and A levels but
10:03armed with my core values that I really
10:06wasn't afraid to work hard and I was
10:07really ambitious and I would try
10:09anything and I would do anything but
10:11with integrity I went out and I got a
10:13job and I started my career
10:15something I just I was just trying to
10:17piece these um put two kind of dots
10:19together there boarding school a very
10:21restrictive place the antithesis of like
10:23freedom your childhood sounded like you
10:25had quite a lot of sort of relative
10:27freedom is there is is it possible that
10:30you went from a childhood pre-boarding
10:32school where you had a bit more freedom
10:33and then because boarding school was
10:35such a big change, you had a bit of an
10:37allergic reaction to the someone taking
10:39your freedom or do you
10:41My friends who are still my friends from
10:43when we were at school in those days, we
10:45remember only one thing about that whole
10:47time, the boredom of simply being there
10:50and having mass sort of three times a
10:52day. And the second thing was we were
10:54hungry all the time. Every day was a
10:56fast day. So you'd have, you know, the
10:58holy saint of such and such day and it
11:01was a fast day. And we remember those
11:02those two things and the sort of
11:04repressive attitude of wearing the same
11:07thing, doing the same thing, doing what
11:09you're told, not being able to explore
11:11things you were interested in. Um, and
11:16uh, none of us could wait to none of us
11:17could wait to leave. But it did teach me
11:21resilience,
11:23the ability to do the things that need
11:25to be done when they need to be done,
11:27whether you like it or not. And that's
11:29because every day was the same. And
11:32there's a great lesson, I think, in life
11:35in being able to force yourself to do
11:38things you don't want to do because you
11:40have to. And that taught me a great deal
11:42of patience and resilience and
11:45determination.
11:47which is funny because much of your your
11:49life has been very much the opposite
11:51doing making sure you don't have to do
11:53things you don't want to do and being
11:54like restricted by the rules of others.
11:57But there is a sense in every job you
11:59do, whether you're
12:01a pop star, you got to sing the same
12:03songs every night,
12:04you know, whether you're working in an
12:06office or working for someone else or
12:08reporting to shareers, there's an
12:09element of our lives that has to be
12:11done. And you get that discipline from
12:15being able to do it and power through it
12:17and approaching it in the way it needs
12:20to be approached, which is a real
12:22discipline as opposed to saying, "I
12:24don't want to do it and I'm not going to
12:25do it." there's a difference.
12:27You you said earlier about how you
12:29started at one point to notice the the
12:31advantages or the skills you had over
12:33your peers at a maybe a young age around
12:35maybe 18 when you start to join the
12:37working world and before what when you
12:39looked at say 18 19 year old Karen what
12:42were those skills that you started to
12:43notice well I'm better than I seem to be
12:45better than everyone else at this thing
12:46or you know stronger or whatever
12:48I went into sales um which is the sort
12:51of place where most people go when they
12:52don't really have anything else they
12:54[laughter] can
12:56what else they can do because you you're
12:58either good at it or you're not. Um, but
13:00you don't need any particular skills
13:02other than being able to have resilience
13:04of picking up the phone, keep trying,
13:06not taking the knockbacks going forward.
13:09And I realized I was good at it and I
13:11would never take no for an answer. I
13:14would always be determined. I would
13:16continue to pick up the phone. I had a
13:19sort of dogged attitude to not letting
13:22the knocks get me down. you know when
13:24people slam the phone down you or they
13:25don't want to speak that ability to
13:28learn the language it wasn't do you want
13:30any it was how many do you want you know
13:32it was that it was that sort of subtle
13:34change of being able to be
13:37personable I think I worked out an early
13:39age that people do business with people
13:41and it doesn't matter how much brain you
13:44have if you don't have a personality you
13:47can't put that brain into good uh you
13:49know in in into a good place so having a
13:52personality and having a brain is is a
13:53good combination.
13:54I worked in teley sales as well for four
13:56years
13:57from 16 to 20 odd whatever it was and it
14:00was genuinely the most formative
14:02experience of my life.
14:03I agree.
14:03Also because I didn't have the
14:04qualifications. So it's the
14:06Yeah. Yeah.
14:06And it's a good place to start. I don't
14:09know about you, but I'm not particularly
14:10creative. I couldn't have done anything.
14:12I mean, [laughter] I couldn't have done
14:13anything in the arts world or anything
14:14like that. But actually picking up the
14:17phone, having that resilience, being
14:19prepared to take the knockbacks, keep
14:20pushing forward, never taking no for an
14:22answer. Those are things I learned from
14:24a very young young age.
14:26So you did sales at Sachi and Sachi?
14:28No, I did mean menial office work at
14:31Sachi at Zachary and I left Sachi to go
14:34into sales at 19 and I worked for London
14:36Broadcasting Company where we sold
14:37advertising space.
14:38And that's where you met David Sullivan.
14:40Yes, that's right. Yeah. He was one of
14:42my very first clients and he took radio
14:45advertising and within six months of me
14:48meeting him and selling him radio
14:50advertising he was spending2 million
14:52pounds a year on radio which was the
14:54highest spender on commercial radio in
14:57the country and I was on a really high
14:59commission.
14:59Well done. [laughter]
15:01It was a good time. [clears throat]
15:03So you meet David Sullivan and he's
15:04quite well he's not spending on radio at
15:06the at the time when you met him and
15:07he's kind of against it I hear.
15:09Yeah. he didn't think it particularly
15:11worked and I sold him the idea that he
15:13would take the advertising package and
15:15if sales didn't go up he didn't have to
15:17pay for it and he said yeah sounds okay
15:20to me and I sort of thought well if he
15:22doesn't pay for I'm going to be in
15:23trouble but I thought I'll worry about
15:24that when that happens I was just
15:27pleased to have made the sale and he
15:29took the advertising the advertising did
15:31work and he kept spending and spending
15:33and spending
15:34if we zoom in on that that sale that
15:36deal you closed with David Sullivan I
15:38know a lot of people couldn't have
15:40closed that deal and I know that was a
15:42pivotal moment in your early career but
15:44I know a lot of people couldn't have
15:45closed that deal. So as you look back in
15:47hindsight what was it about Karen that
15:49helped you to close that deal? Well, one
15:51I went to see him. So, I turned up at
15:53his offices and I waited until he saw me
15:55and I waited a long time, quite a few
15:57hours until he felt, I think, sorry for
15:59me and I wasn't going anywhere and he
16:02let me do the pitch, the presentation,
16:03which I did. Equally, I always had this
16:07um feeling that, you know, what's the
16:09worst that can happen? And the worst
16:10that could happen is he didn't take the
16:12package and he slung me out. But the
16:14best that could happen is he saw me and
16:16he took the package. So, I always looked
16:17on the bright side. So, I turned up, I
16:19did the deal, I presented well, I had
16:22all the facts and figures. I knew what I
16:24was talking about. And I guess he
16:26thought it took a chance. I think the
16:27package was I can't remember. It wasn't
16:30a lot of money. You know, it wasn't a
16:31multi-million pound deal that someone
16:33have to really think about it. I pitched
16:35it just that it would be an impulse. It
16:37could be someone that it was enough
16:39money to have a gamble. Not too much,
16:42not too little, just in that spot. And I
16:45persuaded him. I had this art of
16:47persuasion, talked about what it could
16:50do for him, how it would work, and he
16:51and he took it. And that was the
16:53beginning of my one of my very own
16:57clients that stayed with me for many
17:00years and still today we're still
17:01working together at West Ham some 30
17:03years later.
17:04That is pretty um incredible. Did he
17:06know you were coming that day to pitch?
17:08Had he booked in a meeting to see you?
17:10I can't remember. I think I'd booked in
17:12a meeting. Whether he knew about that or
17:14not, [laughter] I don't know. Right.
17:16I can't remember
17:17because that did end up being quite an
17:18early pivotal moment for you. It's quite
17:20a testament to the fact that again
17:22people do buy from people and that you
17:24were very a very persuasive person. But
17:25also there's a subless in there which
17:27I've heard you talk about before which
17:28is when you're young and you don't have
17:30a ton to lose because young people fall
17:31into this trap of thinking that no is
17:34some kind of like death sentence or it's
17:35fatal.
17:36Yeah.
17:36But as you say, you know, when you've
17:38got nothing else to lose.
17:39Yeah. I had nothing to lose. The worst
17:41thing that could have happened is he
17:42didn't buy it. Um, and I had to sell it
17:44to someone. I was very independent. I
17:47wasn't relying on my parents for money.
17:48I was relying on myself. I had no safety
17:51net, no nest egg. I had no, you know,
17:54no, I had to pay my rent. I had to pay
17:56my bills. I had to pay my travel. I had
17:58to pay for my food. And I had to make
18:00that sale for me. It had to happen. It
18:03wasn't a case of, well, we we'll we'll
18:04see. But I'm the kind of person that
18:07never hears the word no. When someone
18:09says no to me, I don't hear no. I hear
18:12find another way to get what you want.
18:14And that's what I always do. I always I
18:17think no is is only really pivotal if it
18:20ultimately stops you doing what you want
18:22to do. If you hear no and you can find
18:25another way of getting what you want,
18:27that's that's just as good as hearing a
18:29yes.
18:29Am I right in thinking that you're
18:30someone that like really believes in a
18:32philosophy versus like current skills?
18:36Because you're when you talk, you talk
18:37in terms of like your own philosophy to
18:39life. And a lot of people when they
18:41speak they speak in terms of I don't
18:42know skills or hacks or tricks or
18:44whatever. But yours seems to be much
18:46deeper than that. Even saying that
18:47they're defaulting to optimism all the
18:49time. And the
18:51I don't know. I've never really I've
18:52never really [clears throat] thought
18:53about it. I think you you know you you
18:56you need the ability to work hard. You
18:58need the ability to push yourself
19:00forward. You need the ability to have a
19:02backbone. You need the ability to um
19:05have a dogged sort of determination. And
19:08if you have a great idea, so much the
19:10[laughter] better. So much the better.
19:12People say to me, you know, what what is
19:14an entrepreneur? Well, an entrepreneur
19:15is someone that just spots a gap in the
19:18market for a service or a product that
19:20that is either not available or
19:24available, but they can make it better.
19:26And they're the kind of people that
19:28well-meaning people say, "Oh, don't do
19:29that. That's very risky." but they are
19:31prepared to back themselves and put all
19:34those doubters to one side and just plow
19:37through it. And that that's sort of been
19:39what I've done for 30 years.
19:41As you said, that relationship with
19:42David has sustained still today and he
19:45actually went on to hire you. So what
19:47have you learned about the importance of
19:48like relationship building in business?
19:50And
19:51I think that uh part and parcel of
19:54running a great business is to have
19:56really good culture and really good
19:57culture comes from trust and being
20:00candid and being honest and supporting
20:03one another. And it's interesting that
20:06David Sullivan is I'm is still with me
20:09in West Ham. So is David Gold. Two
20:11people who I started with from a very
20:13young age. Um, and we're still all
20:15working together and we still have lots
20:17to talk about and lots of ideas and we
20:19still bounce off each other and we trust
20:21each other and I think that's a really
20:22fundamental part of growing a great
20:26business.
20:27Being candid, you said there. Talk to me
20:30about how candid you are in business.
20:32Very. I think it's important. I have a
20:35great candid atmosphere at West Ham. I
20:38want people to say what they don't think
20:40is right, what they think could be
20:42better, what needs to be changed. I
20:45think if you have too many like-minded
20:47people running the same organization,
20:49you're so busy patting each other off on
20:51the back as you sort of follow each
20:53other off the edge of the cliff, you
20:54need people to say, "Hang on a minute.
20:56Why is this important? How does this
20:58affect us? What does this, you know,
20:59what does this mean we stand for? What
21:01are our values? What's our purpose?" You
21:03need people to be honest and candid. And
21:05I think candid is good. And how do I go
21:08about creating a candid culture in my
21:10company? Say if I've, you know, I'm
21:11running a a business and I want people
21:12to be more candid, what what what do I
21:14do and don't do to make sure that we
21:16arrive at that place?
21:17Well, the most important thing the most
21:19important thing that people want from
21:21you when you're running your
21:22organization is your time. They want
21:24time with you. They want you to listen
21:26to them. They want to be in your inner
21:30circle. They want to be part of part of
21:33it. That's what people want. Um, it's,
21:37you know, it's become less, I think, as
21:40times have gone on about money and
21:42status and more about being in the know,
21:45being in that in that room when
21:48decisions are made and making people
21:50feel that they can be in the room, that
21:52they're part of the discussion and that
21:54you'll listen to them and that they can
21:57say what they want without worrying
22:00about, you know, what's going to happen
22:01to me next. I think that's that's really
22:03important. So, say someone's in the
22:05boardroom with you and they they say
22:07something which is maybe even negative
22:09towards a decision you've made. I guess
22:11you've got to be cautious of your
22:12reaction to make sure that they don't in
22:14the future shy away from because you're
22:16a very powerful woman. You know, it
22:18would be quite intimidating to tell you
22:20the truth.
22:21I don't think I think if you spoke to my
22:23staff, they or the people that I work
22:25with, they would all say that the one
22:28thing Karen is great at is listening and
22:30understanding. And I think the minute
22:34you think as a leader of organization
22:36you know everything is the minute you
22:38don't know anything at all. You have to
22:40believe in lifelong learning. You have
22:42to believe that the people around you
22:44are valuable enough to have a different
22:47opinion to yours that is just as
22:49important. And the minute you think they
22:52they don't have an opinion that's
22:53important as yours, you either don't
22:55have the right team or you don't have
22:57the right team with the right skills. I
22:59like to employ people better than me
23:02because it sort of proves I'm better
23:04than them, if that makes sense.
23:05[laughter] And then when you have people
23:07with um great knowledge and great
23:09skills, why wouldn't you listen to them
23:11when they tell you something? I mean, of
23:13course, you have debates. I want to do
23:15everything quickly. I want to do
23:17everything
23:18um with strength and power and purpose.
23:21And others are like, well, hang on a
23:23minute. Let's not go at that pace. Let's
23:25try and do this. Let's do something. And
23:28sometimes you follow your gut instinct
23:30because it's important. And people say
23:33to me, well, what what is a gut
23:34instinct? A gut instinct, I think it's
23:38made up of all the experiences you've
23:41had through your career.
23:43And you've sort of when you're in faced
23:45with a problem, you've been in that
23:48movie before. You've had that problem
23:50before. A different problem in a
23:52different moment about a different
23:54thing, but very similar. and you know
23:56the outcome. So your gut instinct goes,
23:59"Hang on a minute. I've I've I've
24:00somehow I've been here before and I know
24:02how this plays out." And I find if I
24:05follow my gut gut instinct, I tend to go
24:07make the right decisions. And if I
24:09ignore it, I tend to go bad. But
24:12sometimes you need someone to go, "Hang
24:14on a minute, take a step back, have
24:16another look at this, have a think about
24:17this." And it's a very uh it's a very
24:22lonely place if you don't have people
24:23around you that want the same things as
24:26you that want to help you achieve and
24:29build the things that you you you want
24:31to do. And being able to listen to
24:33people and encourage people to have
24:35their thoughts and ideas is I think
24:38really really important.
24:40So how much of an organization that you
24:42you run and what parts of it are a
24:44democracy? because I'm trying to see
24:45that balance between you being assertive
24:48and making the the call but also
24:51operating in some respects like a bit of
24:52a democracy where you're hearing
24:53everyone's opinions. Is there like a
24:55balancing act?
24:57Yeah, I mean look, if you think about
24:59leadership um and you should never
25:01confuse leadership with management.
25:03Management is about setting out a series
25:05of goals and managing people to deliver
25:08them. Very important. But that's not
25:10leadership. Leadership is about vision.
25:13And sometimes it's only a vision you can
25:15see. And your art as a leader is to
25:18persuade people to believe in your
25:21vision and help you deliver it. So we
25:25have large groups of people that help
25:28deliver visions. So our next vision for
25:31West Ham, for example, is to go from a
25:3360,000 capacity to a 62 and a half
25:36thousand capacity. And we're in the
25:38process, we've got planning permission
25:39for it. in the process of going through
25:42that transition. Um, how do we sell
25:46those extra tickets? Who do we sell them
25:47to? Do we put the price up? Where do we
25:50allocate them? How do people get in?
25:52Should there be more bars? These are
25:54huge decisions. One person cannot make
25:57those decisions. And everybody who has a
26:00stake in that decision should have a
26:03say. And that's everyone from the
26:06commercial department right through to
26:09you know the person who runs the
26:11disabled supporters group. Everyone
26:13needs to make that decision together and
26:15that's how you breed great culture
26:18listening to people understanding the
26:20problems finding the solutions together
26:22having some fun while you do it. So it's
26:25not all you know over charts and in in a
26:28very um rigid way. It is much more in a
26:33conversational way. So for example, I
26:35took a load of my team to Seville when
26:38we played in Europa and we went
26:41together. We had a great time together.
26:43We use the downtime to talk about things
26:46important to us and it's part and parcel
26:48of creating a place where people feel
26:51really proud to work. They feel really
26:54proud of what they do and they feel
26:56really well respected
26:58and they have a lot of fun.
26:59They have a lot of [clears throat] fun.
27:00Yeah.
27:00Yeah. I just realized I'm playing at
27:02your stadium.
27:04Oh, is it in the um the soccer age?
27:07Yes.
27:08Yes. [laughter]
27:10Hopefully that will sell it out for you.
27:12But um no, I just realized as you were
27:14talking then yeah, we're playing at
27:16unbelievable beautiful stadium which I
27:17know you're you're a big part of getting
27:19winning the bid to kind of move over
27:21there. On the topic I'm really excited
27:23by the way what a tremendous honor that
27:24is to get to play at your stadium. But
27:26um on the topic of football then you so
27:29David Sullivan ends up hiring you from
27:31LBC.
27:32Yes.
27:32And you join his corporation and then I
27:35hear at like 22 23 years old you see an
27:38advert in the Financial Times to for
27:41Birmingham City which is in financial
27:43hardship and you
27:44administration
27:45and you persuaded David to buy
27:47Yes.
27:48Birmingham.
27:50What? [laughter] Well, he to be fair to
27:53him, he was looking at buying either a
27:56race course or a football club. He was
27:58interested in doing something in that
28:02area and Birmingham had gone into
28:04administration. There was a little ad
28:06that said football club for sale and I
28:07thought that's interesting. And I got
28:08the details and I went to him. I said,
28:09"There's this football club for sale.
28:11You buy it and I'll run it."
28:12What?
28:12And he was like, "Oh, football very
28:14male-dominated. You'll have to be twice
28:16as good as the men to be thought as even
28:17only half as good." And I said, "Well,
28:19luckily that's not difficult.
28:21[laughter]
28:21and he said, "Okay, we'll give it a go."
28:22And and we did. And it was bought really
28:25quickly within three days. That was like
28:27a Friday. And on the Tuesday, we owned
28:29the club and that was it. We uh we went
28:31in there. We we made so many mistakes,
28:34but we had a great time. It was such a
28:36fantastic experience, you know, to be
28:39given the challenge and chance of a
28:40lifetime to run a great business and
28:43change it, take it out of
28:44administration. I mean, it made a
28:46trading profit for the first time in its
28:47history after my first year. And it was
28:50a real learning curve. Uh, but it was
28:53great fun.
28:54I love how you glossed over the fact so
28:56graciously that at 23 you took over the
28:59management of a football club after
29:01seeing an advert in the Financial Times
29:02and persuading David to buy it. You took
29:04over the management of a football club
29:05at 23.
29:06Yes. I was desperate to look at least
29:0825. [laughter]
29:10Like the press conference, big hair,
29:13shoulder pads, power dressing. So,
29:17did you just have the the courage and
29:19the conviction and the confidence to
29:21take on that role? Because football is a
29:22complete like I don't even think No, I
29:24definitely would not have the the
29:26confidence to run a football club. And I
29:29I' I've loved football. I've followed it
29:30my whole life. I've ran big businesses.
29:32But a football club is a whole different
29:33beast.
29:34It is like it is different. And it's
29:36different because
29:38it doesn't make anything. It doesn't
29:41manufacture anything. It doesn't produce
29:43anything other than more footballers.
29:44all its assets are people. So being able
29:48to manage people and to manage the
29:52diversity of those people and it comes
29:54back to that culture by having an
29:56environment where everyone has to do
29:58everything within their skill set to
30:00make the business a success and know
30:01that that is valued and respected and
30:05there is no uh ceiling on your ambition.
30:10Whether it's the 18-year-old that wants
30:11to go into the first team or the
30:1318-year-old who works in the ticket
30:14office that one day wants to run it,
30:16it's up to you where you go. And I
30:18wanted to create a sort of a a business
30:21that I wanted to work in when I was 18
30:23where you you was nothing holding you
30:26back. There was no politics, there was
30:28no age, you know, no discrimination
30:31whatsoever. The it was there for you to
30:34do and achieve what you wanted to
30:36achieve within our environment.
30:39And that's why football is different
30:42because some people can't get their
30:44heads around the fact of what
30:45footballers earn and they begrudge it if
30:47they're not playing well. They they they
30:50don't you know part and parcel of
30:53managing people is understanding people
30:55and respecting people and valuing people
30:57and giving people your time and your
30:59encouragement. But more importantly than
31:02that, it's about standing alongside
31:05people and supporting them when things
31:07are not going well. much more than when
31:10things are going well. Um, being their
31:12backbone and their uh and their support
31:15system. Very important in people's
31:18business.
31:19As well as that culture, what else was
31:20it that helped you take Birmingham
31:22because your stint at Birmingham is seen
31:24as being incredibly successful as as you
31:26say, like turn the club profitable for
31:27the first time in like recent history.
31:29What how did you do that outside of
31:31culture? There must have been tough
31:33decisions you had to make.
31:35Very there were loads. I mean from when
31:37I first went there to sort of getting
31:38rid of everybody. Lots of businesses
31:40that I am involved in or I know friends
31:44that run the biggest
31:47issue for lots of people that run those
31:49businesses is making the change to
31:51personnel when they need to because they
31:53find it very difficult if someone's been
31:55with them a long time to realize
31:57actually
31:59that person's skill set was great when
32:01we were growing the business and now we
32:03need a different skill set to take it to
32:05the next level. But you think, but
32:06that's John. John's been with us
32:08forever. It's very difficult. But you
32:10have to sort of step above that and say
32:14it's my responsibility to ensure this
32:16business is success for the 800 people
32:18that work there and the shareholders and
32:20everything it stands for. So you have to
32:22make the best decisions and you have to
32:24try and remove as much emotion as you
32:26can out of it, but also always doing the
32:29right thing for the right reason and not
32:31for any other reason. And I think one of
32:33the most important things in a people
32:35business is you must never underestimate
32:38the power of kindness. Being kind to
32:41people and being respectful of people is
32:43really important.
32:45I had a few words to say about one of my
32:46sponsors on this podcast. We often see
32:48the success of a business and forget
32:50about their humble beginnings. And
32:51Vodafone, who is one of the new sponsors
32:53of my podcast, is no exception to that.
32:55In fact, quite an inspiring story. They
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33:08moment in history and they've continued
33:10to innovate ever since. They supported
33:12the very first SMS text over 2G and most
33:14recently they've made history again.
33:17This time through 5G internet with the
33:18UK's first holographic call. But what I
33:21love about Vodafin Business and one of
33:22the reasons I partnered with them is
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33:49access all of the support I've described
33:51above. The link is in the description
33:52below. Quick one. As many of you know,
33:55I've been trying to make my life a
33:56little bit more sustainable as it
33:57relates to energy ever since I sold my
33:59Range Rover Sport and bought an electric
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34:49recommend you check out the Eddie. It's
34:51um it's a real game changer for a
34:52product and one that I'm going to be
34:53installing in my home soon. I think
34:55David Sullivan when he described you and
34:57much of the reason why he had this has
34:59this huge admiration for you is exactly
35:01that. I think he in an interview said
35:02you were a good sacker.
35:05I think what we probably meant was I
35:07wasn't afraid to make tough decisions.
35:09Yeah. and and some of them were really
35:11tough.
35:11Even at 23.
35:12Yeah, even at 23, I really had a clear
35:15vision of what I wanted to achieve and
35:18knew the kind of people I needed around
35:20me to achieve it.
35:21You talked about how emotion sometimes
35:24gets in the way of those tough decisions
35:26for a lot of people. I've seen the same
35:27thing in in businesses when they get a
35:29little bit romantic about the wrong
35:31objective basically or the wrong thing
35:32and that ends up compromising what
35:34should be their primary objective which
35:35is the company, you know, in their role
35:37as CEO or founder whatever. And I've
35:39also heard you say that emotion, well
35:41maybe that was the the headline of the
35:43article. You've described yourself as
35:45not being an overly emotional person,
35:47but the the article I read, remember the
35:49headline was um emotion isn't in her
35:51makeup.
35:52So something words to that effect. Does
35:54that re resonate with you? Is that
35:55something do you think consider yourself
35:57to be an emotional business person?
35:59I'm very logical as a person. I don't
36:02worry about the effect on me of any
36:06decision that I make as long as I feel
36:08it's the right decision. I worry about
36:10the effects it has on others. Um, but
36:14I'm I don't get overly emotional about
36:19things to me which are unimportant,
36:21whether that be criticism on social
36:25media or criticism wherever that comes
36:28from. As long as I know the decision
36:30I've made and why I've made that
36:32decision, I can stand by it. And I care
36:34much more about what my family and my
36:36friends and my colleagues think of me
36:38than someone on social media who I'm
36:40never going to meet, don't know, and I'm
36:42never going to have a conversation with.
36:44So, I'm not emotional from that point of
36:46view.
36:47When you take on a football club as
36:48well, and you've worked in football
36:49clubs for what, two decades, three
36:51decades, three decades now,
36:53you're dealing with emotional fan bases
36:55just like hysterical. I I know cuz I'm a
36:59Manchester United fan and we're very,
37:00you know, emotional as a fan base right
37:02now, but a hysterical, almost
37:04unpleasable, thankless fan base, it
37:05seems at times. So, how has that
37:08impacted you? They're like the voice of
37:10the fan base in your decision-m does it
37:12factor in
37:13every decision I make I make for them to
37:16make them prouder of the football club
37:19to bring them the success that they want
37:22to deliver
37:24the things they want to see at the
37:26football club and the way they want to
37:28see them. Whether that's what we did
37:30through the pandemic for our community,
37:32what we continue to do for our
37:34community, the fact that we keep our
37:35prices low, the fact that we promise
37:37them European football and we've
37:39delivered it, the fact that we have
37:42great players and great culture and a
37:44great manager. Every every decision I
37:48make, I don't make for myself, I make
37:50for them. And I do it to the very best
37:53of my ability. And sometimes they don't
37:55like those decisions and sometimes they
37:58don't agree with those decisions, but
38:01they're all done because it's what I
38:05consider to be for the best of the club.
38:08And also, I guess sometimes they don't
38:10understand those decisions because the
38:12fan base isn't of any football club
38:14isn't a fan base that's educated on
38:15business and finance and inner workings
38:17of a club. So there's lots of like
38:19misconceptions about the decisions that
38:22are being made and are they like
38:23self-profiting decisions or whatever.
38:26How important is transparency in running
38:29I would say in any business but really
38:30in a football club where you've got
38:31millions of people who are your I guess
38:33your stakeholders. How and like clubs
38:35don't seem to be that transparent
38:38largely.
38:39I think it's hugely important. Um and I
38:42think I think football supporters are
38:44very knowledgeable on the business of
38:46football. It may not be a priority for
38:49them but I think they are knowledgeable.
38:50I mean they you've looked at clubs that
38:53have had a really difficult financial
38:55time and having a firm foundation on
38:57which to build they know is important
38:59and it's equally you know it's important
39:03that they know the parameters. I mean,
39:05we we're not, you know, oligarchs or
39:09Saudi Arabian billionaires. We're we're
39:12English taxpayers. We do the best we can
39:14and we generate as much money as we can
39:16without putting that burden onto them,
39:19which is why we have the cheapest season
39:20tickets in the Premier League, let alone
39:23in London in a brand new stadium. So, we
39:25try and go on the journey together. But
39:28I mean, moving to the Olympic Stadium,
39:3054,000 season ticket holders completely
39:34sold out. Some people didn't like it.
39:36But you have to make a decision that you
39:38think is right for the right reason. And
39:40going from a 35,000 seat stadium to a
39:42what is going to be a 62 and a half
39:44seater stadium was a big move and a bold
39:47move and it has proved to to work out
39:50for us which is why we're now playing in
39:51Europe. What would that have happened if
39:53we were at Upton Park? probably not
39:55because it hadn't happened for many
39:58decades before that. So I think people
40:02don't like change and it's important
40:03that they understand why the change
40:05happens and what it means to them and
40:08how it's going to affect them and how
40:10hopefully it enriches their life as
40:12opposed to make it makes it worse.
40:13Do you have an objective at West Ham to
40:15um be more transparent? The recent event
40:19that comes to mind around transparency
40:21in football is obviously the was it like
40:22the European Super League thing
40:24where suddenly one day we all wake up
40:26and all of our favorite football clubs
40:27in the like the top eight or what? Not
40:29even in the top eight but had decided
40:30they're all going to join top six. Yeah,
40:32they're not even the top six.
40:33Yeah, it wasn't even the top six.
40:34There were six of them.
40:35Yeah, exactly. [laughter] I can't even
40:36say that. Manchester United were at the
40:38point, but um they decided to join this
40:40this super league in Europe and it
40:42seemed like it was just this like self
40:44profiting decision which kind of ruined
40:46football or whatever. And after that, I
40:48saw a little bit of a change in some
40:50clubs like Liverpool that the owners
40:52came out and did like a video
40:53apologizing. It was the first time I'd
40:55seen like owners post a video of them
40:56talking on social media. Is this one of
40:58your objectives within the organization
41:00that you run at West Ham to be more
41:02open, a more of a glass box?
41:05We try to let our manager and our team
41:08do the talking for us cuz
41:10because the the supporters don't want to
41:13hear what the CEO thinks. They want to
41:15know what the team think and the manager
41:17thinks. And I think from our point of
41:19view, we're always very respectful of
41:21that. You know, some chairman write
41:24program notes, some chairmans do videos.
41:28We tend to want our team to to do the
41:30talking for us. And we don't really want
41:33to put any more pressure on them and the
41:35manager than they all put on themselves
41:37because they're the ones that put the
41:39pressure on themselves to be successful.
41:41Um, they don't need it from us. As I
41:43look throughout your whole life, one of
41:45the clear consistent themes in you is
41:47your hard work.
41:48Yeah.
41:49It's just like, you know, sometimes it
41:51looks a little bit like obsession in
41:52certain parts of your story. I read
41:54about the fridge not being turned on in
41:55your apartment. Someone saying
41:57my friend my friend came to live with me
41:58and she said, um, the the sticky stuff
42:01still around the fridge and the oven had
42:03never been turned on. And I Yeah.
42:05What age was that?
42:0821.
42:09And you just you were working so hard
42:10you hadn't turned the fridge on. you
42:12were in the office so much.
42:13Well, the thought of cooking and eating
42:15at home never occurred to me. I'd always
42:17grab something on the way in or the way
42:19out would never the thought of actually
42:22buying food because I knew if I bought
42:24food it would just go go off.
42:26People talk about work life balance,
42:27right? And this like obsessive like
42:29they do these days.
42:30Yeah, they do these days in when I was
42:32starting those that phrase had never
42:34been uttered by anyone.
42:36What's your opinion of the the work life
42:38balance conversation? Oh, I think it's
42:42uh much more sensible than anything I
42:45did. Definitely. I think that, you know,
42:48in in my day, you started at the bottom
42:51of the run and you worked your way up
42:54very slowly and carefully to get as high
42:57up the ladder as you could. Whereas now,
42:59it feels much more like a web where you
43:02do a bit over here and a bit over there
43:04and change and do that and then don't
43:06like that, you go and do this. Um, and
43:09you have a much more rounded life. And I
43:11think technology has changed how we all
43:13work. I mean, you know, you're getting
43:15up at 6:00 in the morning to be in the
43:17office at 7 and staying to 8:00 at
43:19night. You don't have to do that now.
43:21And I think that's so much for the
43:22better.
43:23And so, do you live a more rounded life?
43:25Definitely. Yeah, definitely. I don't go
43:28into my office at the crack of dawn and
43:31sit there all day and expect everybody
43:33else with the old ball and chain to be
43:35there. I mean, I I know from having a
43:38family and a career that actually having
43:41flexibility is really important and
43:43giving staff the ability to come in when
43:46they need to and work from home when
43:47they want to is important.
43:49But I guess you didn't always because I
43:51remember your reading the story about
43:52your son turning to you on holiday and
43:54saying, "I wish your Blackberry would
43:55blow up, mom," or something.
43:56Yes. Working mother is the best title
43:58for me because there's two things that
44:00are very important in my life, and that
44:02is my family and my work. And I've tried
44:06my very best to to make those things
44:09work together. Sometimes you don't get
44:12it right. Sometimes you have to decide
44:14that family is more important than work
44:16or work has a priority that's more
44:19important than family and you have to
44:21try and juggle and you spend your whole
44:23life going sports day, board meeting,
44:27parents evening, board meeting, you
44:29know, and you never know where you can
44:31be. And until you come to the conclusion
44:34that you cannot be in all the places you
44:39need to be, you you you can only do the
44:41best you can do. It's a sort of relief.
44:44And sure, my kids will always say, "I
44:48worked throughout their whole growing
44:50up." Um, but they learn different things
44:53from a working parent. the ability to be
44:55independent, to have uh ambition, to
45:00value yourself, to work hard. Those are
45:03those are very good lessons as well.
45:05And do you set aside time to like switch
45:07off as they say?
45:08I don't need to switch off.
45:10Interesting.
45:10I mean, nothing's work unless you'd
45:12rather be doing something else, I find.
45:14And there are times when I think, oh
45:16god, I got to go and do that like today.
45:18[laughter]
45:20No, I'm only joking. I'm only joking.
45:21But there are times when you go, oh,
45:22I've got to go and do that. And you only
45:24feel that sort of but the one thing this
45:28drive for independence
45:30it also comes with another added bonus
45:34and that added bonus is the ability to
45:37say no. If I don't want to do anything
45:39all I have to say is no thank you. When
45:41you're building a career you have to say
45:43yes to everything and you have to say
45:45yes even when you so want to say no and
45:48you say yes and you think how do I get
45:49out of this? try to think of a million
45:51million things you know million excuses
45:54uh to get out of it but when you are
45:57independent you can say no and it's a
46:00great
46:02freedom to not have any obligation where
46:05you have to you don't have to say yes to
46:07anything you can say no if you don't
46:09want to do something and you say yes
46:10when you want to do it and you tend to
46:12enjoy that balance of your life a lot
46:14more
46:15we met in Saudi Arabia for anybody that
46:17doesn't know that was the first time
46:17we'd met and I'd watched you on you know
46:19TV growing up. But in Saudi Arabia, we
46:21were on stage together. We were in a
46:23panel of five and what happened on the
46:26stage, I actually came back and told all
46:27my team and I said, "I absolutely I love
46:30her." Right. So, I don't know if you
46:31know what I'm about to say. I don't.
46:33You don't. Okay. So, we're on stage um
46:36in Saudi Arabia, kind of like a Dragon's
46:38Den style thing where these
46:38entrepreneurs are coming up and pitching
46:39to us and one of the panelists, one of
46:42the male panelists to my left
46:44[snorts]
46:44um you went to ask a question, right?
46:47All right. I don't know if you remember,
46:48but you went to ask a question of the
46:50entrepreneur that was pitching to us and
46:52then one of the male panelists to my
46:53left, he kind of like interrupted you
46:55and and spoke and carried on speaking
46:58and you waited about 30 seconds. You let
47:00him finish his kind of interruption and
47:02then in front of what must have been a
47:04thousand plus people. You turned to him
47:07very calmly said, "One second, I asked
47:09my question first." And then you carried
47:11on with your question and the whole
47:13audience burst into applause.
47:15I do remember that. Do you remember?
47:16[laughter]
47:17I do remember that.
47:19And I'm sat there like, "What?"
47:20I do remember that. I do remember that.
47:23I was really quite annoyed.
47:25Really?
47:25Um I was annoyed because we'd gone to
47:29Saudi. Well, I'd gone to Saudi to talk
47:32about the importance of women and our
47:35rights and being respected. Uh and then
47:38to be spoken over on a stage, I was not
47:41going to let that go under any
47:43circumstances. And I think it was a good
47:45way of being able to show how it's
47:48important to stand up for yourself and
47:50not to be walked all over. And I
47:52certainly was not going to be walked all
47:54over.
47:54And everyone in the room understood that
47:58moment for big significance you
47:59described there because
48:00it was in a very unemotional
48:02professional way. It wasn't in a
48:04It was the most classy like wonderful
48:07polite way to destroy someone.
48:10[laughter]
48:11It was like that's why I said to my team
48:14after I was like she the way she did it
48:15was so like classly classy and like
48:18gracious but it made such a profound
48:20point and you could tell the point was
48:21made because the whole room burst into
48:22applause. But that kind of brings me on
48:25to a wider point about and as you say
48:27the reason why you're in Saudi is this
48:29battle that I know you've had through
48:31your career with men kind of
48:32underestimating you or sexism which I
48:34guess started when you first got the job
48:35at Birmingham.
48:37Yeah. I mean, I remember my first um
48:42away game. I think it was Watford, and I
48:44turned up and I said, "Oh, hi. Could you
48:46tell me where the boardroom is?" And
48:47this little old boy, little steward on
48:49the desk, he went, "Oh, director's wives
48:50over there." And I said, "That's
48:51interesting, but where where is the
48:53boardroom?" And he said, "Dear, you
48:55don't understand. The director's wives
48:57go in the ladies room." And I said, "No,
48:59I don't think it's you understand. I am
49:00the managing director, so I want to know
49:02where the boardroom is." And this little
49:03boy put his little glasses on. He went,
49:05"Oh, yes." He said, "Yes, you're that
49:07woman. Stay here and I'll find out what
49:09to do with you." Because there were no
49:12other women in football. So, there was
49:14never a woman in the boardroom. And
49:16women weren't, you know, weren't welcome
49:18in in boardrooms because it was meant to
49:20be the place where the directors or met.
49:22And of course, they were all men. And I
49:24remember thinking that it was the very
49:26first door I'd kicked down. And I was
49:28determined that I would keep that door
49:32open as wide and as long as possible to
49:34get as many other women through as
49:36possible. And that is something I've
49:38spent my last 30 years doing. It's
49:40really important to me. It's really
49:42important that that there is a sense of
49:45equality and equal pay and equal respect
49:49for everything that you do regardless of
49:53where you're from, what sex you are,
49:55what your beliefs are, how you look,
49:57where you're educated. Equality is very
49:59important to me.
50:00Why do you think it's so important to
50:01you in particular? I think because look
50:05at 23 I was given the challenge and
50:08chance of a lifetime and I took that and
50:10I knew that that started with someone
50:14having trust in me and I knew that there
50:18were so many talented people out there
50:20that didn't have someone that had that
50:21trust in them and I wanted to be that
50:23person. Did you experience um sort of
50:27sexist behavior from the players?
50:30Occasionally, but nothing that I
50:33couldn't deal with. I mean, I was very
50:34lucky in a sense that from 16 to 18, I
50:39went to a boarding school that was
50:42predominantly all boys. So, it had girls
50:44in the six forms. So, he had like, I
50:46don't know, 20 girls and 600 boys. So
50:49being surrounded with young men all had
50:52something to say and knowing how to deal
50:54with that was something that stood me in
50:57good goodstead for my career. So it
51:00wasn't difficult for me and I didn't get
51:02phased by it and it didn't upset me and
51:04I wasn't emotionally damaged and I
51:06didn't feel scarred and I didn't had to
51:07go crying to anyone. I I I could deal
51:11with it. It didn't phase me and it was
51:13an irrelevance of mine. One of the
51:15things that I've noticed specifically in
51:16the like black community is or one of
51:19the concerns I had growing up was I'd
51:20see in some of my black friends that the
51:23belief that they were they were at a
51:25disadvantage actually seemed to hurt
51:27them more than the disadvantage itself
51:29if that makes sense.
51:31Do do you have the same concern that
51:35worrying too much that you might not get
51:37in will stop you from taking the actions
51:39to get in if that makes sense? I'm sure
51:42every
51:45every woman at some point in their
51:47career when they've had to say shall I
51:50stop to have a family
51:52what is that going to you know how is
51:53that going to affect me how is that
51:55going to affect my pay my career
51:57prospects my promotion my standing I'm
52:00sure every woman at that point has had
52:02that that thought and unfortunately or
52:05fortunately as we you know women give
52:08birth to all the taxpayers in the world
52:10we deserve have a break really. So I'm
52:13sure it is a thought that crosses
52:14people's mind. I mean I read some
52:16research that 54,000
52:19returning new mothers to work are so
52:23badly treated because they are
52:25considered to be a burden to the teams
52:28in which they work. People are going to
52:29think they're going to want to go early.
52:31They're not going to be as focused.
52:33They're going to have brain fog that
52:35they are eitherounded out of their jobs
52:37or choose to leave. And that's a
52:39shocking statistic really.
52:41Um, so yeah, I I can see how people are
52:44just, you know, waiting for that moment
52:47when someone, you know, when you do have
52:49to say, I have to go and pick my son up
52:51from school. I have to leave early. It's
52:53a difficult conversation and you're
52:55considered to be, you know, less
52:57valuable because you have these these
52:59these real other issues. So I I can
53:02understand how it plays on people's
53:04mind, but it's important for
53:07women like me to change attitudes
53:10because if I don't do if if women like
53:12me have achieved something, if we don't
53:15use our voice to change it for the next
53:17generation, who's going to do it?
53:19One of my guests pointed out to me um a
53:21couple of weeks ago that when a woman is
53:22successful and she's a mother, people
53:25always ask the question like, "Oh my
53:26god, how do you how do you do it?"
53:28Whereas when a guy is successful, even
53:29if he's a father, no one no one cares
53:31about. Well, no one asks. No one asks
53:33because they presume he's got a wife.
53:34Yeah.
53:34Who's doing it for him?
53:36Yeah. Like Joe Wix. Joe Wix has been
53:39here once or twice. And when Joe Wix is
53:41doing all of his stuff, Pee for Joe,
53:43etc., no one is on his Instagram going,
53:44"What about the kids?"
53:45Yeah. [laughter]
53:47But um we've had women entrepreneurs
53:49that have been here who do a very very
53:50similar thing to Joe Wix. And it's the
53:52question that they get asked all over
53:53their Instagram if they do a workout on
53:54their social media. It's like, "Well,
53:56where are the kids?"
53:56But I think there's two reasons for
53:58that. One is other women want to know
54:00how do you manage that so you
54:02[clears throat] can inspire me to to to
54:05find a way um and the other is because
54:08it's uh it's an easy thing to ask a
54:10woman and that's the lazy question you
54:13know where are your kids? What do you do
54:14with your kids? How do you manage with
54:16your kids? It's a bit like when whenever
54:20you know whenever there's a picture of a
54:23a woman there's always what she's
54:26wearing.
54:27Yeah. uh where is never for a man. Maybe
54:30because women wear better clothes. I
54:31don't know. It is [laughter]
54:32but it's always about what you're
54:34wearing, where'd you get it, how much
54:35was it?
54:36Um and it's always defined you, you
54:39know, uh so and so in her bright pink
54:42jacket. They don't say, "Oh,
54:44[clears throat] Steven in his black."
54:45I wish they did, but [laughter] clearly
54:47not interesting enough.
54:49I had a few words to say about one of my
54:51sponsors on this podcast. As the seasons
54:53have begun to change, so has my diet.
54:55And um right now I'm just going to be
54:57completely honest with you. I'm starting
54:58to think a lot about slimming down a
55:01little bit because over the last couple
55:03of probably the last four or five months
55:05my diet has been pretty bad. Um and it
55:07started to show a little bit really over
55:09the last two months. I go to the gym
55:10about 80% of the time. So I track it
55:12with 10 of my friends in a WhatsApp
55:14group in this tracker online that we all
55:16use together. We call it fitness
55:17blockchain. And I'm currently at 81%.
55:21Um, so 81% of the days I've done a
55:23workout in the last 150 days, right? So
55:27I'm going to the gym about six times a
55:29week, that's been a little bit impacted
55:31by the Derio Live tour, but I'm trying
55:33to stick to it. And so one of the things
55:35I'm doing now to reduce my calorie
55:37intake and trying to get back to being
55:38nutritionally complete in all I eat is
55:40I'm having the Hule protein shake. Thank
55:44you, Hu, for making a product that I
55:45actually like. The salted caramel is my
55:47favorite. I've got the banana one here,
55:48which is the one my girlfriend likes.
55:49But for me, salted caramel is the one.
55:54Paul, your husband Paul
55:56been together since 1995. I think you
55:58met him at Birmingham. He was like the
56:00star player.
56:02How's that been, you know, being such a
56:05careerdriven person, um, who's had these
56:10fairly all-consuming jobs throughout the
56:12years. You know, it's funny when I
56:14there's an interesting thing that
56:15happens in the comments section when I
56:16because I ask every single guest, every
56:18single podcast about relationships. It's
56:20what something I'm just really intrigued
56:21by because I've struggled over the years
56:23with my work and trying to balance the
56:24relationship. But when I ask women this,
56:26people again, I understand why they
56:28assume that I'm asking it because for
56:30the same reasons we've just described,
56:32like I'm trying to understand how you
56:34can be a wife but also hardworking. So,
56:36I just want to put that out there
56:36because I see a lot of the [laughter]
56:37comments. But no, I'm really curious.
56:39you know, you've been this pretty
56:40relentless entrepreneur for the last
56:42three decades, whatever it's been. How
56:44has it been to to manage a relationship
56:47and be that person um and a partner
56:49while also being the tremendous business
56:52woman?
56:52Well, um you have to remember that we've
56:54been married a very long time. And when
56:56we first got together, Paul's career was
56:59much more dominant than mine really. and
57:02uh he was traveling around playing at
57:04different clubs, playing for his country
57:07and I was the one staying at home
57:08looking after the kids having my career
57:11and and working around that and he was
57:14the one going around and then he uh
57:16retired from football and my career took
57:18off a bit and then he became a football
57:20manager and I stayed home more with the
57:21kids and we sort of we've balanced our
57:24our lives to give each other the space
57:27to do the things that we love that make
57:30us rounded individuals.
57:32I have no jealousy of anything he does
57:35and equally to me. So, for example, when
57:38I'm filming The Apprentice, um I don't
57:41know how it how it works on on Dragon's
57:43Den, but when we film The Apprentice,
57:44when it says it's 4:00 a.m., the
57:46voiceover says it's 4:00 a.m., it really
57:48is 4:00 a.m. And we work 16 to 18 hours
57:53a day, seven days a week for five weeks
57:55to produce that show without a break.
57:57There isn't a day off. And it is really
58:00hardgoing. So I always say to Paul, it's
58:03much better if he's not there because I
58:06want to get up at four o'clock in the
58:07morning, have a bath, put the lights on,
58:09turn the television on, leave when I
58:12want, then get back maybe 8:00 at night,
58:15go straight to bed, ready for a 4:00
58:18a.m. start the following day or whatever
58:19it is. So he goes to Canada to see his
58:21family because his parents live in
58:23Canada and he has a great time with his
58:25family and I can focus on what I have to
58:27do without any distractions because what
58:30happens during that period is let's say
58:32he might say um should you go out for
58:35dinner tonight and I'll say yes and then
58:37I don't get home because filming's
58:39overrun and I'm not home till 1:00 in
58:41the morning and then he's like oh you
58:42coming you're not coming and I I just
58:44it's too much. It's on top of everything
58:46else it's too much. It's much better if
58:49I have my space to do what I've got to
58:51do and he has his space to do what he's
58:53got to do. But the one thing that we
58:55have in common is we've built a great
58:57family and we we respect each other. We
59:00love our kids. Our kids are our whole
59:02life. Even though they are, you know, 25
59:05and 23, we everything is about our
59:08family and everything we do together is
59:10is really important. And I have to say,
59:13if you said to me, you got one day left
59:15on the earth. What would you do with it?
59:17I'd want to spend it with my husband and
59:19my two kids because we have such a great
59:21laugh together and we're good friends
59:24and there's a real bond of family
59:27between us.
59:28How important is it to be candid?
59:30Because that's kind of what you were
59:31describing there, being so candid with
59:32how you're feeling and what you're going
59:34through. A lot of people don't have that
59:35in relationships.
59:36Oh, we're definitely candid. [laughter]
59:38We're definitely candid.
59:39And how important is that, do you think?
59:40I'm asking for myself.
59:41I think it's really important because
59:44you can't pretend to be someone you're
59:46not.
59:48It's a bit like in an early part of a
59:50relationship. I got a friend who's have
59:51got an early part of a relationship and
59:53the guy she [clears throat]
59:54is with likes the opera. She cannot
59:57stand it. But she's saying, "Oh yes,
1:00:00love the opera." And I'm like, "Why
1:00:01don't you just say hate the opera? I
1:00:02couldn't think of any. I'd rather do
1:00:04less." Because when he finds out
1:00:06actually you hate the opera and then or
1:00:08or you find out you got to go more to
1:00:11the opera and you're going to resent it.
1:00:13Why not just be honest from the start?
1:00:14Say I really can't stand the opera. You
1:00:16go. You have a nice time. Let me know
1:00:17what it's like. I think it's probably
1:00:19our relationship is not needy.
1:00:22So he doesn't need me. I don't need him.
1:00:25We want to be together, but we don't
1:00:28need to be together. I don't need to
1:00:30know where he is every minute of the
1:00:32day. I don't need to know what his
1:00:34thoughts are on every single thing or
1:00:36everything I do. I think if he could
1:00:38have me a little bit more needy,
1:00:40probably would. But he knows that I'm
1:00:43very self-sufficient and don't need much
1:00:47from anyone. Um, and I think that's
1:00:50again going from boarding school where
1:00:52you're very much on your own. you like
1:00:53your own company, but we we don't we
1:00:57don't there's not a neediness in the
1:00:58relationship where uh I say to him, "Oh,
1:01:02I've been invited to go um to to
1:01:05Buckingham Palace for um dinner with the
1:01:08queen." And it's a white t. I'm not
1:01:10going to that. I'm not a white tie. I'm
1:01:12not getting a white tie. And he won't
1:01:13come. Like he's not if he doesn't want
1:01:15to come to anything, he won't come. Uh
1:01:17and I'll say, "Oh, I've got this, you
1:01:19know, thing. Do you fancy doing that?"
1:01:21He'll say, "No, definitely not." or
1:01:22he'll say, "Should we I fancy doing
1:01:24this?" And I'll say, "No, I don't want
1:01:25to do that." So, we we very candid with
1:01:28each other and it works for us.
1:01:30This is the single biggest mistake I
1:01:31made at the start of my relationship and
1:01:32me and my girlfriend had a conversation
1:01:34and we discussed it was I was saying yes
1:01:36too much to things to try and please
1:01:38because you feel like that's what's
1:01:39needed. Whereas I came to learn over the
1:01:42years, and I literally had this
1:01:43conversation with my girlfriend over the
1:01:44last month, that in fact, I need to just
1:01:47be honest more regardless of how I think
1:01:50it might impact her
1:01:52because you see, you're saying yes when
1:01:53you really want to say no.
1:01:54Yeah.
1:01:55And then you've got this sort of
1:01:56underlying resentment. And it's much
1:01:58better to just say no and suffer the
1:02:00consequences.
1:02:01Yeah, definitely.
1:02:02Versus forever. Because as you say with
1:02:04the opera, I then have to try and live
1:02:06out this life forever.
1:02:07Exactly. Exactly. And I think it's
1:02:10important to have your own space and
1:02:11your own friends and do your own thing.
1:02:14Um, you know, you're married, but you're
1:02:16not joined at the hip. And there's of
1:02:18course there has to be a level of mutual
1:02:19respect there and and honesty and trust
1:02:22and all of those things. That goes
1:02:23without saying, but you're not the same
1:02:25person. And it is okay to have different
1:02:28interests and it is okay. My husband is
1:02:30a gym bunny. He's professional athlete.
1:02:32He's at the gym morning, noon, and
1:02:34night. I could not think of anything I'd
1:02:36rather do less. As you can see, I'm not
1:02:38a gym bunny. I don't go to the gym. I
1:02:40got no desire to go to the gym.
1:02:42This is I'm going to the gym. Yeah, bye.
1:02:44And that's it. Uh, and I say I'm going
1:02:46to a board meeting like, "Yeah, bye."
1:02:48Like, he couldn't think of anything he'd
1:02:49rather do less. But it's we respect each
1:02:52other's space and views and ideas and we
1:02:54don't have to debate every last thing or
1:02:58every last decision. Um, and
1:03:01everything's okay. Like we we don't
1:03:04worry about anything. We don't not say
1:03:06we don't worry about anything. We don't
1:03:07sweat about stuff.
1:03:09Uh, you know, I don't care if he doesn't
1:03:11pick up his socks.
1:03:13Interesting. [laughter]
1:03:15The whole world is not going to stop
1:03:17because they've picked up your socks.
1:03:19But the I tell you what really is
1:03:20important in a relationship
1:03:22is understanding when other people are
1:03:25under pressure and being there for them.
1:03:28And I don't mean being in there with
1:03:31them, but I mean just being there for
1:03:33them and doing the things that really
1:03:35matter to them as opposed to big
1:03:37romantic gestures. I can't I mean I'm
1:03:40not a flower person. I don't
1:03:41particularly like flowers. If someone
1:03:43bought me flowers, it's okay, but I'm
1:03:45not a big I don't need flowers. But my
1:03:49husband used to fill my car up with
1:03:50petrol, so it was one less thing I had
1:03:53to worry about. And it's small things
1:03:56like that that build a foundation
1:03:59because you know that person's there for
1:04:01you even though it's not a big romantic
1:04:03gesture that the whole world can see cuz
1:04:05that's really not very important to me.
1:04:07Have you ever done the love languages
1:04:08test thing?
1:04:09No, I don't even know what it is.
1:04:11So I'm not into this kind of woothing
1:04:13thing but this is actually quite
1:04:14from just 17 magazine or something. I I
1:04:16[laughter] don't even know what it is,
1:04:17but it's probably it's a series of
1:04:19questions which try to understand how
1:04:21the the type of love indicator that you
1:04:25most appreciate and it tends to be the
1:04:27case that busy entrepreneurial people
1:04:29their their love language is and as is
1:04:31mine is acts of service and it's exactly
1:04:33what you've described the tiny little
1:04:35thing to help in a moment. So like
1:04:37helping you pack your luggage when they
1:04:39know you're traveling
1:04:40or just doing that tiny and for me when
1:04:41I did I did the survey with my
1:04:43girlfriend I'll send it to you. Mine was
1:04:44acts of service for me. The most
1:04:45meaningful thing someone can do for me
1:04:46in a relationship is exactly what you
1:04:48said is like
1:04:49help me with a tiny thing that you know.
1:04:51Yeah.
1:04:52But is his sort of love language per se
1:04:54the same? Some people say is like touch,
1:04:56words of affirmation, acts of service or
1:04:58gifts is one of them.
1:04:59I think you take any of the above.
1:05:01Oh, really? [laughter]
1:05:03Does he get it?
1:05:05Yes, he does. No, we we uh I think for
1:05:08us the most important thing for us is
1:05:10having a laugh, having lots of family
1:05:12and friends that we enjoy their company
1:05:14with. And you know, it's interesting.
1:05:17Lots of couples have been married a long
1:05:19time. They need lots of people around
1:05:21them to break up. You know, they have
1:05:25lots of friends over, lots of do lots of
1:05:27things, big parties and stuff like that.
1:05:29I'll tell you the one thing he does for
1:05:30me every day without fail is um he takes
1:05:33the dog for a walk which is very
1:05:35important and he picks up a coffee and
1:05:39he brings it straight to me and that
1:05:41because he knows I cannot start my day
1:05:43without without a coffee and that's his
1:05:45big love moment every day.
1:05:48Is there a need to maintain desire when
1:05:50you're sort of two almost three decades
1:05:52into your relationship? Is there things
1:05:53to do? Is there a strategy to keep it?
1:05:56This is the wrong podcast. [laughter]
1:05:59Okay. Different shades as the CEO.
1:06:02Exactly.
1:06:04Okay. Is that the answer? You should
1:06:06follow [laughter] your arms.
1:06:09Do you know Do you know what I mean?
1:06:11Date nights. I don't know. Is there
1:06:12something that I should be thinking
1:06:14about when I get
1:06:15Well, you I think from our point of
1:06:16view, our kids are grown up, so every
1:06:18night's a date night for us. But I think
1:06:20doing things that are different and
1:06:22unusual. I mean we went on this
1:06:23fantastic tour of Thailand where we went
1:06:26all over did really crazy wonderful
1:06:30things that were were really good fun.
1:06:32So we try and do more experienceled
1:06:35things but equally we are you know we
1:06:39are prepared to go in our tracksuits and
1:06:42go out to the pub. Um I mean I guess our
1:06:46happy place if I have to think about
1:06:47happy place is Soho Farmhouse. It's a
1:06:49real happy place for us and we tend to
1:06:52try and go one weekend a month um and we
1:06:55spend two nights and really don't do
1:06:57anything. Take the dog on long walks,
1:06:59have loads to drink, watch a film, go
1:07:03out, eat lots of food, just relax.
1:07:07One thing you've never I've never seen
1:07:09you talk about from from all that I read
1:07:10is mental health, your own mental
1:07:12health. This is kind of a a fairly new
1:07:15conversation that's happened in the last
1:07:1610 years. But have you had experiences
1:07:19with things like anxiety or depression
1:07:21within your own sort of mental health?
1:07:22No, I haven't. Uh maybe I have, but I
1:07:25just haven't focused on it or haven't
1:07:27really thought about it. I think we all
1:07:29have bad days, don't we? Where we're
1:07:31sort of more snappy than than others and
1:07:34days were really good. I started HRT
1:07:37recently and I found myself singing in
1:07:39the kitchen the other day, which is
1:07:41something I don't think I've ever done.
1:07:43And I was like, Christ, this stuff's
1:07:44working. [laughter]
1:07:46So, but no, I have this resilience from
1:07:49this, you know, from my very early age
1:07:52to be able to put things to one side and
1:07:54focus on what needs to be done and not
1:07:56really worry too much about it, which is
1:07:58probably both a blessing and a curse.
1:08:00And you do you describe yourself I was
1:08:02reading one of your books. Do you
1:08:03describe yourself as a feminist?
1:08:05Definitely.
1:08:06Yeah. And what does that mean to you?
1:08:08To me, it means equality. It doesn't
1:08:10mean wanting more than men. It doesn't
1:08:13mean disliking men. It just means that
1:08:16women's rights should be equal to men's.
1:08:18It has been stigmatized, hasn't it, that
1:08:20the word feminism. It's this kind of
1:08:21like I feel like it's become a little
1:08:23bit of a well, the stigma is it's kind
1:08:25of this anti-man
1:08:27rhetoric. Whereas really, I think men
1:08:28should be feel like they're feminists,
1:08:30too.
1:08:31Definitely. every every man has a mother
1:08:34um has an aunt has a sister has a cousin
1:08:36has a female in his life that should
1:08:39want them to be treated equally. I mean
1:08:41it's a it's a truth for for every pound
1:08:43a man makes a woman makes 86p and it's
1:08:45going to take a hundred years to close
1:08:47that gap and you get into industries
1:08:49like finance you know that gap is is
1:08:53much bigger than that so it's just about
1:08:55equality it's about not being
1:08:57discriminated against because you're a
1:08:59woman not being paid less because you're
1:09:01a woman not being able to earn your
1:09:04worth because you're a woman that's what
1:09:05it means to me
1:09:07as we look forward at the future you've
1:09:09achieved so so much in your life in your
1:09:11career It seems like from what you cuz
1:09:13you said earlier on that you weren't
1:09:14ambitious when you seems like you've
1:09:15probably surpassed your childhood early
1:09:18years ambitions already. Is that an
1:09:20accurate I don't want to put words in
1:09:21your mouth, but is that accurate?
1:09:22Yeah, I would think so. Yeah.
1:09:23So, what what's what's driving you now?
1:09:25What's the the thing flipping the duvet
1:09:27and getting you out of bed if you've
1:09:29surpassed all those ambitions?
1:09:30I mean, the toughest thing about being a
1:09:32success is you got to keep on being a
1:09:34success. There's no point in having a
1:09:37successful year last year to do nothing
1:09:39this year. And what drives that is
1:09:43ambition. And I really am disappointed
1:09:47when people are afraid to say they're
1:09:48ambitious because we tend to think
1:09:50ambitious people are ruthless people.
1:09:52And that's not the case. Ambition is
1:09:54that spark. It's that fire inside of
1:09:57yourself that won't let you settle for
1:10:00anything other than what you think you
1:10:02deserve and what you want. And uh I love
1:10:07what I do. I feel so proud that I run
1:10:11West Ham. I feel so proud that I'm in
1:10:12the House of Laws and the work that's
1:10:14important there that has to be done. Um,
1:10:17I love the businesses that I'm involved
1:10:20in, the charities that I'm involved in.
1:10:22I've picked the things I wanted because
1:10:25I wanted to say yes to them. And I don't
1:10:28have anything I secretly wanted to say
1:10:29no, but say yes. So, um, I think a sort
1:10:33of allrounded life, whether it's doing
1:10:36the apprentice, something I love, is
1:10:37such good fun. I mean, we're there. I
1:10:39don't know how it is on your show, but
1:10:41on my show, there's a real level of
1:10:43support, and we're all good friends. I
1:10:45mean, Alan, Claude and I, we go on
1:10:46holiday together. We go out for dinner.
1:10:48We're we're friends. We're firm friends
1:10:50first and and and and foremost. And I
1:10:53love what I do, and I just want to keep
1:10:56doing it.
1:10:57Is there a goal or an ambition for you
1:10:59or is it more of the same? Is that the
1:11:01Do you have like a when you think okay
1:11:0310 years from now
1:11:04I've never had that. I've never set
1:11:05milestones. I mean I did have when I was
1:11:08younger I had a flat and I wanted a flat
1:11:10that had heating
1:11:11and then I wanted a flat that had
1:11:13heating and a washing machine and then I
1:11:15wanted a flat that had heating and a
1:11:17washing machine and a car. So I did have
1:11:20those sort of milestones as opposed to
1:11:22ambitions. But I don't have any of that
1:11:23anymore. There's nothing I want. I don't
1:11:25ever look at people and think, "Oh, I
1:11:27wish I had that or I really want one of
1:11:30those." I actually don't want anything.
1:11:32I don't have a car. I don't need a car.
1:11:34I like to walk. I don't have a lot of
1:11:37stuff. Um I'm not uh my some people I
1:11:41know have wardrobes the size of your
1:11:44flap with so many clothes in. I buy a
1:11:46load of clothes for the apprentice and I
1:11:47give them all away to dress for success
1:11:49or to my staff when I'm finished. I
1:11:51don't have a lot of stuff and I've never
1:11:54wanted a lot of things. So, I don't have
1:11:56this sort of, oh, I must get a boat or a
1:11:59yacht. I mean, I'd never want anything
1:12:01like that. I love what I do. I'm very
1:12:04happy in my life. I'm very content. I
1:12:08wake up every morning without anxiety. I
1:12:10never feel I've bitten off more than I
1:12:12can chew. I never think how am I going
1:12:14to see through the day that is ahead of
1:12:16me. I'm never thinking about how I pay
1:12:19my bills. I'm never thinking about how
1:12:21do I keep up with the Joneses. I'm never
1:12:23worrying about those things that weighs
1:12:25a lot of people down and give them a lot
1:12:27of issues. I'm very happy. I'm very
1:12:29content. I've lived a full life. They
1:12:32say you only live once, but I think if
1:12:34you live it right, once is probably
1:12:36enough.
1:12:38Amen.
1:12:40I'm reflecting on n 18 19 year old Karen
1:12:43that starts at Sachi and and then the
1:12:45person that sat in front of me today and
1:12:48I'm wondering based on that full life
1:12:50and that experience you've had and all
1:12:52those boardrooms and experiences you've
1:12:53had what you would say to a 90 because
1:12:56there's going to be I know that you know
1:12:57on several platforms the majority of our
1:13:00listeners are female. What would you say
1:13:02to those young women that are starting
1:13:03out in their career? What
1:13:05[clears throat] would you whisper in
1:13:06their ears? They're on their Monday
1:13:07morning walks today and I see them
1:13:09uploading this on their stories. What
1:13:10would you say to them in terms of
1:13:11navigating their future?
1:13:14I would say grasp every opportunity. Try
1:13:17as hard as you can. Never be afraid to
1:13:20fail. And
1:13:23I was going to swear, but I won't.
1:13:24Swear. Please. [laughter] We swear every
1:13:26day.
1:13:26I'm not going to swear. Um and stand up
1:13:28for yourself. And and trust me, you do
1:13:31not want to get to 52 and look back on
1:13:34your life and say, "I wish I would
1:13:36have." You will always regret the things
1:13:38you don't do more than the things that
1:13:40you do. So, go and do stuff.
1:13:44Thank you. It's been honestly such a
1:13:45huge honor and pleasure to speak to you
1:13:47because yeah, I was in my team now. I've
1:13:49had this like weird captivated crush on
1:13:51you ever since I saw you in [laughter]
1:13:52Saudi Arabia because of that strength
1:13:54and that your your wisdom, your strength
1:13:56and your and all all you've achieved in
1:13:58your life. And it's it's very very
1:14:00inspiring and interesting to especially
1:14:04the the path you've walked in such a
1:14:06maledominated industry and how how you
1:14:09you've you'd forged your own success at
1:14:11just like 22 years old that that real
1:14:12pivotal moment where you take over a
1:14:13football club. Utterly fascinating and
1:14:16um yeah and we have a closing tradition
1:14:18on this podcast where the previous guest
1:14:20writes a question for the next guest.
1:14:22Oh goodness. You could have told me I
1:14:23could have said something really really
1:14:25[laughter]
1:14:26This is a question that's been left for
1:14:27you by Okay.
1:14:28a certain individual. Okay. Interesting.
1:14:31When you walk out of here after this
1:14:32beautiful conversation with Steven,
1:14:34[laughter]
1:14:34I didn't write this. After this
1:14:36beautiful conversation with Steven, do
1:14:38you feel enriched? And if so, what would
1:14:40you say to the next person you meet on
1:14:44your experience? I would say that
1:14:48[clears throat]
1:14:50sometimes it's
1:14:52very difficult to decide to share your
1:14:55story because you open yourself up and
1:15:00people get to know you in a way that
1:15:02maybe you never thought they would. But
1:15:06actually
1:15:07sharing your story you hope inspires
1:15:10someone else. And it also gives you the
1:15:13opportunity to look back and reflect on
1:15:16your own life because many of us are so
1:15:18busy moving forward that we stop to say,
1:15:21"Oh [ __ ] yeah, I was 19 once. What was
1:15:24I doing when I living in that horrible
1:15:26apartment with no washing machine and no
1:15:28heating and when I didn't have a car and
1:15:30how I worried about paying my bills?"
1:15:32It's it's easy when you're 52 to forget
1:15:35who you were at 18. And it's
1:15:38opportunities like this when you think
1:15:40about your life and the journey that
1:15:41you've been on that you can, you know,
1:15:44surprise yourself.
1:15:46And you don't do many interviews, do
1:15:48you?
1:15:48I don't. I'm I steal well clear.
1:15:51Why?
1:15:51Because I think it's time for other
1:15:53women to speak. I think that, you know,
1:15:56it's like I could take a whole load of
1:15:58non-execs and I could take valuable
1:16:00positions that other women could have.
1:16:02I've had my time. I'm 52. I've been
1:16:05there. I've done all that. I don't want
1:16:07to appear in okay magazine. I don't, you
1:16:09know, want to be posing in a swimsuit or
1:16:12any of those things. None of that
1:16:14appeals to me. I want to lead a
1:16:18calm,
1:16:19incidentree, [laughter]
1:16:22quiet life. Um, inspiring others in a in
1:16:26a way I can. I want nothing for myself
1:16:30out of this other than I hope that
1:16:32people have have enjoyed it.
1:16:36I certainly believe they would have.
1:16:39Thank you so much Karen for your time
1:16:40today and thank you for your wisdom.
1:16:41You're such a
1:16:42classy grace graceful inspiring human
1:16:45being and yeah you've inspired me in so
1:16:47many ways not just from watching you
1:16:49growing up on the apprentice but also in
1:16:51Saudi Arabia and again today. So I'm I'm
1:16:53I have a debt of gratitude that I owe to
1:16:55you and thank you for being here.
1:16:56Thank you so much for having me.
1:16:59[music]
1:17:01Heat. Heat. N.
1:17:04[music]

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