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Justice For All Radio Show with Host Attorney George Yates & Guest Nick Yarris — Transcript

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0:00[Music]
0:20good afternoon this is George Yates and
0:21we're here with Justice for All uh and
0:24I'm your host and we'll be here for the
0:26next couple of hours and we're real
0:28excited today uh
0:30to have our guest uh uh be a a fellow
0:33named Nick Yus and his book is just
0:36coming out here on September the first
0:39uh Seven Days to Live uh nick uh is uh
0:43this book is it's absolutely fascinating
0:46account of a young man that was framed
0:48for a murder that he didn't commit and
0:50spent 21 years on death row uh and we're
0:54going to get into the entire details of
0:56it I'm not going to uh spend a lot of
0:59time summarizing in it for you but I'll
1:00go ahead and uh and bring him in he's
1:03he's with us today uh how you doing
1:05there Nick Yus ah good morning George
1:07and I'm so glad that I get this
1:09opportunity to speak and it's wonderful
1:12to kind of feel mentally back in the
1:13Virginia area where I've always enjoyed
1:15it you know the the name of the book is
1:18uh is seven days to live and I did
1:21notice while we while we're talking
1:22about the book itself maybe that's not
1:24the most important thing but the book's
1:26just coming out now and hitting the
1:27bookstores uh but uh I know notic that
1:30the book that I read uh uh the advanced
1:33copy that I received uh had a 2008 uh
1:37date on it you were released from prison
1:39on uh in
1:422004 uh and your book is now coming out
1:44in 2014 what delayed its publication I
1:48it was originally to set for release in
1:50the United Kingdom in 2008 in July and
1:55some Advanced copies went out and but
1:58the publisher Harper col
2:00sto publication of the book because I
2:02unfortunately was going through a
2:04domestic uh divorce and they felt like
2:07it was taking away from the reader the
2:09happy good feel good feeling that they
2:12wished so it had nothing to do with the
2:14book story as you read it but it's just
2:17one of the decisions that a publisher
2:18can make so I settled a heart a lawsuit
2:22with Harper Collins and they paid me
2:24this year and so I'm now free to
2:25re-release the book in the United States
2:28because I was living in Kingdom for the
2:30last nine years I didn't have this
2:32opportunity until now well it's a
2:34fascinating story and you know these
2:35days it's not unusual at all with the
2:37Innocence Project uh and and those guys
2:40and they're going to be on my show later
2:42on I've actually just got some
2:43interviews lined up with some of the
2:45principles there of course that's the
2:47Barry Sheek Peter Newfield group you
2:49know the famous lawyers from the OJ
2:51Simpson uh Tri I'm very grateful that a
2:53percentage of uh my book sales will go
2:55to the Innocence Project and that Barry
2:58and Peter both are are supporting uh
3:01both my book and the new documentary
3:03that'll be out next year so I I've been
3:05getting a great deal of help from their
3:07organization so I'm going to make a real
3:09effort for them as well and you've been
3:11speaking out against the death penalty
3:12ever since you're released from prison
3:14because you were framed for a murder
3:16that you did not commit you were
3:18exonerated you were declared innocent of
3:21the charges uh after spending 21 years
3:24on death row uh and if if there was ever
3:27a better argument for not having the
3:28death penalty would be your case isn't
3:30that a fact it it's one of those sad
3:33tragedies where I I'm the 140th person
3:37set free from Death Row from getting it
3:39wrong that kind people yeah I was the
3:4213th man proven innocent by DNA so it
3:45goes to show that it's not just me it
3:48was many people unfortunately mine was a
3:50harrowing tale that took place in 1968
3:54actually when I was raped and attacked
3:55as a young boy and I was left with a
3:57brain disorder name called a Asia and it
4:01affected my whole childhood and
4:02development and I lost track of my life
4:04because I was addicted to drugs and
4:07alcohol because of this Affliction you
4:09know I just want to say this book Seven
4:12Days to Live is a great read and and I
4:15just any and anybody that that that's
4:18out there that's listening to us today
4:20either live or later on on a uh on a on
4:24a feed because we are on archives.org
4:26and we you can get our show on YouTube
4:29as as well justice for all with Georg
4:31Yates on YouTube uh you got to read this
4:33book Nick Yus is it going to it's
4:35available at Barnes & Noble and on
4:37Amazon and all of that no it's on Amazon
4:39and through my personal website nickj
4:41ar.net um you can get the Kindle version
4:45of course online um but we're just
4:47starting out again I'm hoping to get
4:49distribution somewhere along the line
4:50and hopefully it will be nationally
4:52recognized I like I said I worked very
4:54hard for the education I gave myself to
4:56write a book that wasn't a self-
4:58glorification how it was a story that
5:01really enhanced it how did you survive
5:03how did you survive 21 years on death
5:05row how did you do
5:07it uh I guess um one of my favorite
5:10lines is I guess I've had all of the
5:13hard bark peeled off of me I I I think
5:17what you go through in the experiences
5:19of someone who was not only accused of a
5:22rape and a murder but was accused of
5:24being a psychological Predator so that
5:26inside of prison I was treated with all
5:28the difference of the world and I mean
5:31professional deference can be chilling
5:33in the way that people treated me so I
5:35learned very early on that I had to go
5:38through a process and that process of
5:40humility took a lot of pain and tears
5:43and suffering but I think that there's a
5:45lot of truth that what comes from
5:47suffering is only Beauty well how does
5:49somebody get convicted of a crime they
5:51didn't commit why don't you just tell
5:53our listeners how this happened well at
5:56the age of 20 I was stopped for a motor
5:58vehicle by violation in the city of
6:00Chester by patrolman Benjamin Wright and
6:04Benjamin Wright was a big man and he
6:06walked up to my car and unfortunately
6:08inside of the car the music was blasting
6:11and my mind was frantic I was high on
6:13drugs and I have a Blan disorder that
6:14makes me shut down and I had difficulty
6:17at times to process language so when he
6:20walked up to the car and he beat on the
6:22window I didn't respond I kept looking
6:24forward just terrified he opened the
6:26door he ripped me from the car he put
6:28his arm against my forearm and pushed me
6:30back over the roof of the car with my
6:32neck backwards and I started flailing so
6:35I knocked his arm away and I stood back
6:37and then he reached down and took his
6:39Club out as he did I grabbed his wrist
6:41when I grabbed his wrist I took the
6:43stick out of his hand like it was a
6:44small child the adrenaline fo from my
6:47body was nothing he just stood there for
6:49a second then in a like a rage he just
6:52reached down and began grabbing for his
6:54weapon when he grabbed his service
6:56revolver I grabbed his wrist and the gun
6:58went off into the ground
7:00I began yelling okay as if that was my
7:02surrender where like I just kept
7:04shouting it over and over when he put
7:06the gun to my head put me in the back
7:08seat of the car slammed the back door
7:10got in the front seat and composed
7:12himself for a minute picked up the radio
7:14and then pretended that the assault was
7:16still going on that he was under the
7:20arrest I was then go ahead yeah I was
7:23just I was then taken to into custody
7:25and charged by Officer right's words
7:28with attempted murder kidnapping uh
7:31assault with a deadly weapon and
7:32possession of a firearm I was thrown
7:34into the D County uh prison and put into
7:37solitary confinement under a maximum
7:39bail of $100,000 cash and I was told
7:43that I faced life imprisonment for the
7:44charges by offer Wright and I collapsed
7:47I I went mental I I broke down like I I
7:50was destroyed it was four days before
7:52Christmas in 1981 I was 20 years old and
7:55I I had the world dropped on me well now
7:58you were ultimately acquitted of the
8:00charges yeah that's the Shocker that
8:02even though a jury would find me guilt
8:04not guilty of all those charges only
8:07three months later the fact remains that
8:10while I went through the initial
8:11incarceration I went through mental
8:13breakdown where I I actually came up
8:15with a stupid concocted story where I
8:17went forward to the police and told them
8:18I knew about a murder of a woman in
8:21Delaware who was driven into
8:23Pennsylvania and the police soon figured
8:26out that I would lied to them and then
8:28they turned around and deliberately
8:31framed me for the murder knowing that I
8:33was the perfect paci for it well now you
8:36were uh you were on trial uh for this uh
8:41incident with the police officer and you
8:42know it's kind of interesting Nick I was
8:45reading the account of this killing of
8:47this young black boy in um in Missouri
8:51uh the brown uh killing that just Brown
8:54Michael Brown and apparently that's the
8:57sort of thing that now they're saying oh
8:58well Michael Brown the officer is now
9:01saying that he was going for his gun uh
9:04and Michael Brown was going for the
9:06officer's gun and then the gun officer
9:08shoots Brown and I I was reading that
9:11account and I thought wow isn't that
9:14exactly how that officer frame dick y
9:17well we do know that today's technology
9:19is going to tell the truth about that
9:20forensically so whatever story is
9:22concocted it's going to have to match up
9:24with the ballistics and everything else
9:25so good luck with that one yeah that's
9:28what I'm did to try as you know that's
9:30what undid officer Benjamin Wright
9:31because he claimed that I fired the
9:34pistol inches from his face as he
9:36wrestled the gun from me in the last
9:38minute heroic step because his version
9:40differed very from mine and he acclaimed
9:44I I punched him in his face initially
9:46broke his eyeglasses hit him with his
9:48service revolver three times across the
9:50face five times in the face but he
9:52didn't have a single scratcher mark on
9:54him and the jury was dumbfounded by
9:55someone saying that I viciously knocked
9:58them unconscious with a metal pistol but
9:59he didn't have a scratch well your
10:01lawyer did a heck of a job in that case
10:03cross-examining that police officer
10:05didn't he yeah I I I was I was befuddled
10:08by him not asking many questions and in
10:11fact he let the officer go on and on and
10:13on with an exaggeration that the jury
10:15only took 20 minutes to deliberate over
10:18right it was my word against that
10:19officer and they only took 20 minutes to
10:21find me not guilty well you know it's
10:23very difficult to win a case uh when
10:26it's The credibility of a police officer
10:28versus The credibility of a citizen uh
10:30uh in front of a judge you you'll never
10:33win that um but when it's in front of a
10:35jury jurors have uh sometimes uh
10:38positive experiences with police and of
10:40course some jurors have negative
10:41experiences with police so uh it's
10:44possible to win jury trials where it's
10:46credibility um issues like that but uh
10:49what was it about in way my winning yeah
10:51my winning the trial uh verdict at that
10:54time was my undoing in a lot of ways
10:56because the prosecutor from Delaware
10:59County Barry gross had lost his first
11:01major trial and he went berserk in the
11:04in the courtroom and it's even proven
11:06that he did it during the Nicki Scarfo
11:08trial in the federal courts where he
11:09went off and made all kind of nasty
11:11outbursts when he lost a trial for
11:12murder to the Mob so it was a repeated
11:16behavior that I couldn't do anything
11:17about because he was in power and he on
11:20his own sought the death penalty the
11:22very next week without any of the facts
11:24of the case changing in that time period
11:26only my AC quid so let me just so for
11:29our listeners to get this straight while
11:31you're pending trial for this alleged
11:34shooting of a police officer that you
11:36were ultimately acquitted of you were
11:39you were upset that you were being
11:40charged with a crime that you didn't
11:41commit uh and so you were trying any
11:44possible way to get out of jail so you
11:47made up a story that you knew about you
11:51you were going to try to help them solve
11:52a murder and you believe you and you
11:55believed you believed that uh uh you had
11:59read about this apparently in the
12:00newspaper you saw it was a brutal rape
12:03and murder of a young girl young woman
12:06and so you you hit upon an idea that a
12:10former friend of yours uh a drug addict
12:13friend U who had you believed had died
12:17you thought you know what I'm going to
12:19say that this fellow who died uh
12:22actually committed this uh this horrible
12:25rape and murder and I know he did it
12:27that way if I can help them solve this
12:30murder uh they're going to let me out
12:33and and so the madness was it it's such
12:35a crazy idea what happened how did that
12:37back how did that backfire on you uh
12:38Nick to tell well they took me out of
12:40solitary confinement initially and they
12:42took me into the warden's office and
12:43praised me for my civil service and
12:45helping them with this
12:47remarkable uh unsolved crime and they
12:50told me that the officer right had been
12:53spoken to he had agreed to reduce the
12:55charges I was going to be reduced on him
12:58uh my own signature bail once they had
13:01the man in custody that uh they took me
13:04out of solitary confinement and put me
13:06in general population told me that
13:07within three days I would be released so
13:10I believed my own Madness so I I walked
13:13around the prison thinking oh God I'm
13:14going to get out then I can run I can
13:16get away from this I can somehow Dodge
13:18all this it will get behind me and this
13:21is the the mindset of someone2 years old
13:23so three days later they came back and
13:25they said you know what we know that
13:28James bris the man that you accused is
13:30not the killer because he has an alibi
13:33furthermore we know that you did the
13:35crime and I was dumbfounded by their
13:38connection to just believing that
13:40because I had lied that I must be the
13:42Killer and then they just told me in
13:44their minds the reason I killed the
13:46woman named uh Linda May Craig on
13:48December 15 1981 is because she bore a
13:52likeness to my girlfriend and and even
13:55though it sounds insane now that's what
13:58they went with and that's how they made
13:59it work so they put a prisoner in the
14:01cell next to me who had burglarized the
14:03prosecutor's home of Delaware County and
14:05he said that after one night in the cell
14:07next to me that he had gotten a
14:09confession from me killing my alibi
14:12because that was the frustration for the
14:13police how could I be in a bank paying a
14:15bank record how could I be home with
14:17with family and be in a store witnessed
14:20by a clerk all around the time of the
14:22murder but no different in my blood
14:25covered clothing or anything like that
14:27ever being accused of me no physical
14:30evidence nothing I didn't own a Cara I
14:32lived 26 miles from the crime scene but
14:34it didn't matter they needed someone to
14:36F to be charged with the murder so they
14:40uh cooked up a jailhouse confession
14:43against you how did the forensic
14:45evidence line up against you um this is
14:48the weird thing we only had corology
14:50back then and my downfall was the
14:53murderer was a B positive secretor of
14:55his antigens and I am a B positive
14:58secretor of my antigens as well as 15%
15:01of the white male
15:03population so the thing is they didn't
15:07have a science to Def to define the
15:10outcome of the spato zoa found during
15:13the rape uh and uh left at the crime
15:16scene they didn't have any way to
15:19identify the killer based on
15:21fingerprints because the killer W wore
15:23gloves and left them in the car as the
15:26taunt to the police with the doors
15:28closed and the lights left on inside the
15:30car so they could see them when they got
15:32there and those those gloves were not
15:36introduced at
15:37trial and in fact no they were
15:39completely hidden and were hidden from
15:41you and and you were unaware that they
15:43even existed until after you were
15:45convicted of capital murder and put on
15:47death row and you began your appeals how
15:49many years later before you determined
15:51that there were actually gloves in that
15:53car that had been suppressed by the by
15:55the government well I became the first
15:57prisoner on death row in February of
15:591988 to ask for DNA testing when I first
16:02learned about it when the prosecutor got
16:06wind the fact that I was asking for DNA
16:08testing to prove my innocence they
16:10systematically went about destroying all
16:12the autopsy material when I discovered
16:15new autopsy material was sent to a
16:17laboratory in Willow Gro Pennsylvania
16:20Dennis McAndrews assistant district
16:22attorney sent two detectives to the
16:23laboratory and they took this the slides
16:27and other evidence and put them in the
16:28their personal desk in their office and
16:30kept them there for three years and let
16:32it
16:33R and so I never knew about the yeah go
16:37ahead you'd been on death row at this
16:39point for four years five years no I at
16:44um I went in 1982 so six years I was on
16:49death row before I started asking for
16:51death row uh DNA I'm fasc took me 15
16:54years to get it from there well and and
16:56I I I was reading in your book uh about
16:59what the judge uh your your trial lasted
17:02three days I had a three-day trial and
17:06capital Mur in three days yes sir and
17:09the opening comments by Robert F Kelly
17:12from Delaware County was to the jury um
17:15after thanking them for their service he
17:17reminded them that they all had a
17:19concerned worry that their holiday on
17:22Friday of that week would be interrupted
17:24by this trial but he promised them on
17:27Tuesday of that week that would make
17:29sure everything would be done that this
17:31trial would be over so that they could
17:32all go home and celebrate the 4th of
17:34July this is a Justice for ra with
17:37George Yates we're on 1650 a.m. uh thank
17:40you for listening uh today uh we're
17:43having a great show here with Nick Yas
17:45whose new book is called Seven Days to
17:47Live Nick was uh uh uh prosecuted for
17:51capital murder for a crime he didn't
17:52commit in Pennsylvania in 1982 he served
17:5621 years on death row he was the first
17:59prisoner to have DNA testing finally
18:01authorized for him in March of
18:041988 uh but he was not that DNA evidence
18:08was now Nick's telling us was
18:11systematically uh destroyed excluded
18:14hidden uh somehow degraded they call it
18:17and he wasn't finally exonerated until
18:212003 and then when they finally
18:23exonerated and pronounced him innocent
18:24he still remained in the penitentiary
18:26for seven more months for they finally
18:29let him loose in
18:312004 uh and it's a fascinating book here
18:35uh 7even Days to Live which uh is now
18:37finally coming out and is available uh
18:39for you to read and uh and I just
18:42enjoyed every second of this book um you
18:45know when you're in solitary confinement
18:48on death row uh I no one no one can even
18:54begin to imagine what that must be like
18:56can you uh share with us how in the
18:59world you can survive and what it's like
19:02to be locked up in a cage that small for
19:04that
19:05long I I I still to this day think it
19:08was the greatest experience of my life I
19:11found out so many wonderful qualities
19:13about myself and I learned so much about
19:16the world from having the I called it
19:19like I I I learned I learned what really
19:23it it comes from when you say you're a
19:26humble person I know where that comes
19:28from because I know what it's like to
19:30have only the next moment to live for
19:33and I guess what it made me appreciate
19:36is how gifted I am now to have survived
19:39it because the ability I gave myself
19:42through education the Acumen the uh
19:45ability that I have to communicate has
19:48served me the ability to survive now and
19:51that's important to
19:53me you were beaten brutally many many
19:57times you were deg ated you were you
20:00were threatened you were uh you were
20:03abused verbally
20:06physically uh how in the world uh can
20:10you uh now say that this was the
20:12greatest experience of your life what an
20:14incredible uh because you just only
20:16described a small part of it you see I
20:19was married to a woman for 10 years I
20:22grew and I developed I only had one
20:25Mantra I wanted to develop myself so
20:27well so that on the day that they
20:30executed me I could prove to them the
20:32person that they thought I was was long
20:35gone and I could show to myself that the
20:37person I became was someone worthy of my
20:40own respect so I think while all of the
20:45terrible things can be listed I've lost
20:47a piece of my eye I've had my hand
20:49crushed I had personal tormentors I've
20:51had people stab me and strangle me and
20:53do all kind of horrible things but I
20:55look at it this way those efforts are
20:59only meaningful to me if I make them so
21:02and the efforts by people to be kind and
21:05the officers who were good to me and the
21:08nice people who tried to educate me and
21:11enrich me do I slap them in the face by
21:13holding on to only the
21:16ugly when I was a prosecutor uh in the
21:19early days I was a prosecutor from 1985
21:22to 1989 and I remember Prosecuting rape
21:26cases and um murder cases and cases that
21:28used the uh forensic you know blood
21:31corology that you were convicted and you
21:33know that was uh that's all we had of
21:36course and we would have the same blood
21:38type and then whether or not you
21:39secreted the antigen and so you'd be
21:42like a be you know be uh B plus with a B
21:47positive with a uh you know a secretor
21:49or a
21:50nonsecretor and you know that was all we
21:53had it is amazing that um we have so
21:58many uh you know we would convict so
22:00many people based upon consistency and
22:03just blood samples like that which are
22:06so many people have those same cons same
22:09characteristics or even hair and fiber
22:11evidence which is just not nearly as
22:14accurate as the FBI or some of these U
22:17examiners will have you believe uh and
22:20I'm just wondering how many people are
22:21still there on death row that have been
22:23convicted uh based upon this kind of uh
22:27suspect evidence
22:29well it's shocking when I see DNA
22:32exoneration today I thought we were done
22:34with it like it's insane we had a
22:36science that should been a tool done to
22:39every major conviction across the
22:41Spectrum where DNA is available I
22:44thought that was a and I'm I'm sorry for
22:46saying this but I thought that was the
22:48prosecutor's job not the defense lawyers
22:50I thought it was on the government to
22:52say wow we just came up with a brand new
22:54fingerprinting machine where we can
22:56fingerprint the whole place all over and
22:58we'll find you now or something like
23:00that like I always thought it was the
23:02government's ownest to turn around and
23:04say we have a new tool to clean house
23:08but they didn't they were afraid of it
23:10in fact what I found out of the 11 cases
23:13of men set free before me only uh only
23:16about six had the DNA entered into the
23:19data Bank to find the actual killer
23:21because the prosecutors who did enter it
23:23into the data Bank caught the real
23:25killer and had a whole new mess on their
23:28hand Prosecuting a brand new capital
23:30case for the man's case that was
23:32exonerated well that's isn't that the
23:35reason that so often this happens uh the
23:37local authorities want to say hey we've
23:39caught the guy uh we' we we've caught
23:42the guy then you can have a newspaper
23:44article that says the you know uh we
23:47have a suspect in custody and therefore
23:49we can now assure the public that this
23:51killer is not on the loose and of course
23:53the killer still is on the loose it's
23:55just we've got the wrong guy and we
23:57don't want to admit later that we you
23:58know that we convicted the wrong guy uh
24:00you know people don't like to be proven
24:03that they're wrong let me quick question
24:04did they ever uh locate the the real
24:07killer of Linda May Craig no no uh I'm
24:10actually documented as going before the
24:12the county courthouse every week in a
24:15movie called after innocence where I
24:16used to protest outside their courthouse
24:18and make them put the DNA into the data
24:20bank I wasn't going to leave this an
24:22unanswered question so I did my best and
24:25I finally got the DNA results entered
24:27into the DNA Data Bank but thus far no
24:31result matches have come through and the
24:33shame of it is there was DNA under the
24:35victim's fingernails where she fought
24:37with attacker DNA inside of her
24:40underwear where it was left in spatola
24:42and DNA left in those gloves that were
24:44originally hidden before my trial as
24:47well and yet um The Shocker of it all is
24:50despite DNA the United States Supreme
24:53Court just took away everybody in
24:54America's Miranda rights to remain
24:57silent based on versus Texas quoting my
25:01case this is a hidden thing that people
25:03don't know about if a police officer
25:05walks up to you George Yates and begins
25:07talking to you and then you initiate
25:09silence you are admitting guilt in a
25:11form of your
25:15demeanor right right exactly and and
25:18that I can't understand how they've
25:19changed the law and gutted the Miranda
25:22law and now we've lost all of our
25:25Miranda rights because of Nick yarus
25:27being convicted wrong ly this doesn't
25:29make sense to me and it scares me that
25:32this right-wing court has done this in a
25:33manner that is shocking because Selena's
25:36versus Texas is a man was arrested and
25:38he was questioned by police and then he
25:40got quiet when he was asked about a
25:42murder weapon the Supreme Court said
25:44that in my case during interrogations I
25:47remain quiet when I was asked did I kill
25:49the woman or why I did and my silence
25:52indicated that I couldn't answer my own
25:56reason for killing the woman C they
25:59effectively stripped every American
26:01citizen of their Miranda rights we are
26:04here with Nick Yus the author of seven
26:06days to live framed for murder for 21
26:09years on death row for a crime he did
26:11not commit finally exonerated by DNA
26:13evidence and has now written a
26:15fascinating book we're here on 1650 a.m.
26:18this is George Yates with Justice for
26:19All We're going to take a short break
26:21we're going to come back and talk to Mr
26:23Yus about uh the 15 years that he waited
26:26uh to to get exonerated uh after DNA
26:29testing was ordered and before he was
26:31finally
26:33released Oldtown Tavern in the heart of
26:35Feebas is your place for a great lunch
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27:01Oldtown Tavern the locals
27:03[Music]
27:20Choice all right we're back on 1650 a.m.
27:23I'm George Yates I'm your host this is
27:25Justice for All and uh we'll start our
27:27next segment here with nickis is the
27:29author of seven days to live framed for
27:31murder 21 years on death row for a crime
27:34he did not commit and uh Nick is now in
27:37California is that right yes I I I moved
27:40this January with my wife Jessica to um
27:44Claremont California in Los Angeles and
27:47uh we are now in the development of a
27:50movie script from my first book so
27:51you're you're hopeful so so uh after
27:54you're convicted in Pennsylvania you're
27:56what's the name of the prison that you
27:57were sent to Huntington and that is a
28:00very notoriously dangerous place yeah
28:04one of the only prisons in that time era
28:06that was ever condemned by the United
28:08Nations for its active practices of
28:10torture one of the things that they had
28:12done is They carried over the Quaker
28:16system of silence and your cell as a
28:17form of torture people in the United
28:20States don't forget that prison was the
28:22alternative to the death penalty every
28:24crime in the United States used to be
28:26punishable by death f sodomy everything
28:30so we came up and allowed the Quakers to
28:32come up with a prison system and this
28:35prison system had three tenants you
28:37would enter in silence you would bow
28:39Your Head Upon entry into that cell and
28:42you would sit in piety and come and and
28:44reflect upon your crime well that was
28:47taken forward to the point where they
28:49used to use silence as a degradation and
28:52torture and I didn't speak to any other
28:54prisoners really for the first two years
28:58and they actually told you that you
28:59weren't able to
29:01talk well they reinforced it on my day
29:03that I got there they took all the other
29:05prisoners off the bus they stood me up
29:07against the wall and they explained to
29:08me that I was dead and when I responded
29:10to the officer with a simple yes sir he
29:12smashed me in the face turned around and
29:14fed me to his officers for the next 30
29:17seconds where they beat the hell out of
29:18me they threw me in the cell and then
29:20the nurse came up and instructed me on
29:22how I should fill out a form to get on
29:24to the sick call list if I needed a
29:26doctor in the future
29:29now when you are on death row you are in
29:31solitary
29:33confinement yeah 23 hours a day all day
29:37you get five days of that week you get
29:39exercise so it's a little bit more than
29:41that but I did all 8,057 days in
29:44solitary confinement in fact they even
29:46let me go from that because like you
29:48said it took them 15 years to let me
29:50have the DNA testing and it was an
29:52extraordinary terrible Journey that I
29:54went through but then on top of it you
29:56said and it's true it took him seven
29:58months from that point to let me go and
30:00that was a terrible ordeal upon it
30:02because they even botched my release on
30:04the last day as you know and they did
30:07everything wrong they could have at any
30:10time showed me kindness but instead all
30:13I kept getting along the way was you're
30:15too dangerous for us to trust tell us
30:17you're
30:18somebody why did DNA testing take so
30:20long I mean if it was ordered in 1988
30:23why did it take until 2003 give us a
30:26sense of how that happen initially all I
30:29um I filed the uh request in Delaware
30:32County court and I was told that the
30:35Delaware County coroner of the time
30:36Demitri
30:37kavas was on board with it it's in the
30:40span of a weekend I got a call uh by my
30:43attorney is saying oops all the autopsy
30:46murder uh evidence from a rape and
30:47murder has been thrown away and they
30:49can't find any evidence I then went
30:52through the trial transcripts on my own
30:54found out that they were sent to um a
30:57laboratory in Willer Grove Pennsylvania
30:59some evidence that did the corology
31:01testing that we talked about so those
31:04materials that were sent to that lab to
31:06determine the B type blood status of the
31:08killer was still viable slide
31:11preparations that were on their fixed
31:14slides when I told my lawyer of the time
31:17about this he informed the prosecutor
31:19who then sent detectives to abcon with
31:22that evidence and never send it over to
31:24the Corner's office for safekeeping just
31:27put it in their desk and let it rot for
31:282 years so by the time I finally got
31:31those slides released to us in our
31:33custody there was nothing on them and
31:35they did the same with all of the
31:37victim's clothes they weren't they were
31:39missing and found only because the clerk
31:42accidentally tried to hand my mother a
31:44box full of what he thought was my
31:46clothes in a box marked Yaris and it was
31:49the victim's murder
31:51clothes oh my
31:53God so so so you're saying that after
31:56you got your DNA testing approved the
31:59prosecution continued not only did they
32:01frame you with with a fraudulent uh jail
32:04house confession which they knew about
32:06they then after you tried to get
32:08yourself exonerated they continued to
32:11hide they head to murder me they head
32:13glove all what it is George they tried
32:16to murder me and look they were so
32:18determined to keep this thing quiet how
32:21are you how are you ultimately able to
32:23get exonerated then if they hit all the
32:25evidence what what fin be executed sadly
32:28I asked to die oh my God and it was
32:30because the federal court stepped in and
32:32ordered the DNA testing it was only
32:34because of Peter goldberger in ardore
32:37Pennsylvania and the federal defender
32:38office out of Philadelphia that I got
32:40the federal funding finally and the
32:42approval from a federal judge who said
32:45look I want every bit of evidence tested
32:49and the first evidence that yielded um
32:52DNA results was the Killer's gloves in
32:54February of 2003 but the prosecutor said
32:58that since they withheld that evidence
33:00from my trial no evidence found inside
33:02those gloves should now yield any
33:04exonerating evidence to set me free this
33:07is the insanity of it and that's in your
33:10book that's an incredible exchange
33:11between the judge and the prosecutor
33:14when he said wait a minute you're
33:15telling me that there's evidence in the
33:18gloves that exonerates him proves him
33:20Innocent but he can't use it because you
33:23chose to withhold it from him before the
33:25trial yeah and they withheld it for
33:27reason George I am 6'2 I weigh 200 lb
33:31genetically I'm a pretty big person but
33:33when I was shooting drugs as a young
33:34person my hands swelled up like mittens
33:37and I'm sure You' seen the people in the
33:38street when they do this to themselves
33:40their hands don't look normal do they
33:42well the size medium gloves that they
33:45had left at the crime scene would have
33:46never fit me the car seat had been moved
33:49forward Mrs Craig was 5' 7 and she had
33:523ft heels on the car seat had been moved
33:54forward and they measured it to a person
33:56of of average height of 5' 7 who was
33:59operating the car they knew they weren't
34:01my gloves you mean the uh the the the
34:05circumstances of her killing were that
34:07the killer actually drove her car he
34:10drove her in her car after all right
34:12these are the circumstances of Mrs
34:14Craig's death at 4:05 p.m. on December
34:1715th 1981 she left work her watch was
34:20broken at 4:05 that's how we know when
34:23the attack happened she was assaulted in
34:25the in the parking lot of the tri state
34:27mall in Wilmington Delaware her shoes
34:31were found in the parking lot the next
34:33day because they were pushed aside by a
34:35snow P it was snowing at the time of the
34:37attack she was driven two miles into
34:39Pennsylvania where she was then sexually
34:41assaulted and then stabbed six times in
34:44the chest and and dumped into this
34:46church parking lot of a church that was
34:49only two miles from her home the car was
34:52then found 2 miles away in Trainer
34:55Pennsylvania along the roadside with the
34:57door is locked the lights on top in the
34:59interior on and the engine running with
35:02the gloves worn by the killer left on
35:04the front seat the car front seat had
35:07been moved forward for a person of a
35:09short stature to operate the vehicle
35:12because she couldn't have operated in
35:14that manner based on the mirror
35:16positioning and the seat
35:18positioning now you you know a lot about
35:21your case you've must have examined your
35:23transcripts over and over and over and
35:25over again I know and how I found the
35:28evidence because I kep remembering Dr
35:30nitri
35:31kelavos from uh willig Gro Pennsylvania
35:35receiving slides and how he testified
35:38that the killer had be positive so I
35:40said well where's all that evidence so
35:42sure enough when I found it I thought
35:44yeah I got a good chance but then
35:47duplicity treachery you got to
35:50understand something I was appealing my
35:51case in the William R toll Annex of the
35:54Media Pennsylvania Courthouse William R
35:58to Jr was on the bench as my trial
36:02during the process of DNA application
36:05and William R tol III was on the
36:08prosecutor's team defending my efforts
36:10to not let me have
36:12DNA it's it's fascinating that uh there
36:15could be such a concerted effort to try
36:17to have make sure that Justice is not
36:19served it's just scary uh so it's just
36:23absolutely terrifying to me that
36:24something like this could happen so you
36:26spend all this time why didn't the so
36:30for a lot of our listeners they probably
36:31don't understand they think that well
36:33wait a minute when DNA is ordered
36:35wouldn't you assume that all evidence
36:37would be tested I mean why did it take
36:39till 2003 before a federal judge says
36:42we're going to test all the evidence why
36:44in the world wasn't that ordered in 1988
36:46wouldn't that make sense right but then
36:49there's all these incidents that happen
36:51I go through this period where my
36:53mother's handed a box of evidence Mark
36:55Garis like I said and they it was the
36:57victims Clos and that was in 1990 tell
37:00us and evidence and in 1990 that
37:03evidence was extracted from that box and
37:06sent to a laboratory in Maryland where
37:08it then sat again while I then got the
37:10federal court help from Peter goldberger
37:12being my Appel attorney and the federal
37:15court ordered DNA testing
37:18unfortunately the laboratory boxed the
37:20evidence up and shipped it to California
37:22to Dr Blake who did the OJ Simpson DNA
37:26and the box broke open in shipping and
37:30all the evidence was supposedly
37:31contaminated so much so that the lab
37:33said that they weren't going to try and
37:35extracts DNA because there would be a
37:38challenge by the
37:39prosecutor so I sat in frustration as I
37:43had no more hope and I got sick with
37:46hepatitis C and my little brother died
37:49and I stopped wanting to suffer so I did
37:53the only thing that makes sense in
37:562002 uh after they Blinded Me in prison
37:59with the treatments for my illness I
38:01asked to be executed I thought at least
38:03I can go out with dignity you know well
38:07why the DNA evidence what about the uh
38:10under the fingernails of the victim wh
38:13why wasn't that tested in 1988 was it
38:15was in the box that was no they were
38:17they were never found in 88 they were
38:19found later in the box of evidence in a
38:21clerk those fingernail clippings were
38:23actually found in a Clerk's best drawer
38:26in a in a f that was left behind other
38:30files it wasn't until the federal court
38:33stepped in that they start to act it
38:35wasn't until James Giles out of the
38:38federal court who's now retired ordered
38:40that a fair accounting of the DNA
38:43finally take place in 2000 so you have
38:45to understand you know this habius
38:46Corpus I couldn't get into the federal
38:49court until they were done abusing me in
38:51the state court and as long as I had a
38:53DNA application in the state court they
38:55could abuse it as long as they kept it
38:57there and and they kept it there for 15
38:59years almost so you're saying when the
39:01federal judge ordered it then the then
39:04the state court was ordered by a federal
39:06the DN EV DNA evidence together and I
39:09had Federal funding more importantly I
39:11finally had Federal Defenders money to
39:14pay for the DNA because at one point
39:16judge William arto told me in
39:191989 that my DNA application was going
39:22to cost the county taxpayers $1,500 and
39:25that was a lot of money to waste on this
39:29now uh so tell us a little bit I I know
39:34we'll get back to some of this DNA in a
39:36minute but uh one of the more
39:37fascinating aspects about your history
39:40in prison was that you actually escaped
39:43from custody uh and we on the loose and
39:47actually uh ended up in Florida and did
39:49time in a Florida prison uh next to the
39:53infamous Ted Bundy tell us a little bit
39:56about your scape and how you ended up in
39:58Florida and uh you write about it in
40:00your book it's a fascinating account
40:03yeah in 1985 I was being transported to
40:06court for the abuse of evidence from all
40:08the evidence that was withheld from my
40:10trial and even though my first appell
40:12attorney didn't believe in me he did
40:14file the state mandatory appeal for my
40:17case and when he did the state supreme
40:19court sent my case back for an evident
40:21hearing for destruction of evidence and
40:24I was looking forward to it I was going
40:26to show all the evidence that was
40:27missing from the homicide file and all
40:29this stuff and I was very eager to go
40:31and I got picked up by two elderly
40:33sheriffs and driven to the court five
40:35and a half hours away and when we
40:37stopped to use the restroom in Frasier
40:39Pennsylvania I came out of the toilet
40:42and the other officer was holding the
40:43door for me went in leaving me with one
40:45officer who was back at the car smoking
40:47a cigarette and when he turned around I
40:49was tring towards him because it was
40:51bitterly cold February 15th of that year
40:53was the coldest day of the year and I
40:55was terrified when he pulled out his gun
40:57and started shooting at me so I turned
40:58and ran and then that was it for the
41:01next 5 and 1 half hours I was chased by
41:03over 200 law enforcement and helicopters
41:05and dogs and I did everything imaginable
41:07to my body trying to get away from I was
41:09terrified so I ended up uh getting to
41:12New York City and I stole a man's wallet
41:15and then I went to uh Florida and then
41:17after 25 days I realized this was just
41:20mad I couldn't do this so I turned
41:22myself back in and went back and faced
41:24hell and yes I did end up 8 months next
41:26to Ted Bundy who took a personal dislike
41:29to me cuz I didn't fall prey to his
41:31Charming ways so after 25 days you you
41:35were escaped and you weren't caught I
41:37mean you could have remained free no
41:40this is crazy this is the hardest thing
41:42in my life I was sitting in Fort lale at
41:45one point and I was going to buy a
41:47rubber raft and and a big Pooler and
41:50fill it full of food and alcohol and I
41:53was going to go way out into the
41:54shipping lane and then I was going to
41:57eat uh one last meal and drink a whole
42:00lot of alcohol and get myself ready and
42:01then I was going to stab the the uh
42:04inflatable with a knife and then kill
42:06myself and let the sharks eat me so that
42:08my family wouldn't suffer to ever see me
42:12again but you had escaped and you were
42:15in Florida uh and you turned yourself in
42:18uh what what thought process went
42:21through your mind why did you turn
42:22yourself back in when you were free cuz
42:25I kept remembering what they were doing
42:27see I was in New York City and I was in
42:30front of Macy's and they had all these
42:31TVs and I saw all the microphones in
42:34front of my mother's face so I knew if
42:36they didn't have me they had them they
42:38were going to torture my family
42:40endlessly weren't they and so I had one
42:43choice either end it or go back so I
42:46went back and they put another 30 years
42:49on top of my sentences and they beat the
42:52hell out of me and put me through hell
42:55but I would rather have done it because
42:57couldn't have done that to my folks I'm
42:58sorry not after I know that they did to
43:01my brother and everything while I was
43:02running something I'm a little confused
43:04about uh when you were ultimately
43:06exonerated of the murder of Linda May
43:08Craig and you weren't just you weren't
43:11just cleared on a reasonable doubt you
43:12you were given a I mean when you were
43:14given a new trial and and you were
43:16cleared and absolutely cleared and made
43:19declared innocent of that charge correct
43:21yes sir when when you um but you you say
43:2530 more years got tacked on as a result
43:27of this Escape how did you handle
43:30getting that did did somebody decide to
43:32commute that yeah on my last day um some
43:36wonderful lawyers from uh Florida filed
43:40the correct petitions because I was only
43:42sentenced as I was in the State of
43:44Florida because I was a convicted murder
43:45on Escape so I was sentenced uh to 35
43:49years in Florida jail but those charges
43:52were taken off of me once this law firm
43:55uh went to work for me so I am still a
43:57convicted felon and if I am ever
44:00arrested in the state of California for
44:02a simple misdemeanor I know that I face
44:04the rest of my life in prison so that is
44:07the the thing that I tried not to live a
44:10fear of and that's one of the things I
44:11moved to the United Kingdom for so I
44:14wouldn't be in fear of losing my life
44:16but I am a three-time convicted felon
44:18regardless of DNA which never would have
44:21happen of course if you hadn't been
44:22wrongly convicted in the first place it
44:25all stems from one thing but in the eyes
44:26of law that's not really cogun is it now
44:30you uh were released and uh you went and
44:34you sued the uh state of Pennsylvania uh
44:38the uh the county in which you were
44:40prosecuted tell us about that lawsuit
44:43the great it was a very traumatic
44:46experience for me to go through a mini
44:48trial before we went through settlement
44:50but it revealed the truth about the
44:52matter you see all along detective Randy
44:55Martin claimed that I had confessed to
44:56him at one point during the
44:58interrogations and that he could prove
45:01it based on his dictated notes into a
45:04small dict phone that he had
45:07transcribed well the transcript that he
45:10handed in was actually transcribed by a
45:12woman from the Media Pennsylvania
45:14prosecutor's office who had transcribed
45:17a tape that she actually listened to and
45:19heard my voice because she described
45:21things such as sobs or laughter nervous
45:24laughter and such and when we went to
45:26the trial I was asked to put forth um a
45:30rebuttal to this alleged confession of
45:32mine and it was this time that I proved
45:34to everyone that M Randy Martin had
45:36framed me and it was the the day after
45:39that that we concluded that didn't
45:42matter when I got a email from one of
45:44the boys who found Mrs Craig wishing me
45:47well and it was so synchronized that I
45:50could have thought that God had touched
45:51me at that moment cuz I just went
45:53through 3 days of testimony only to find
45:55out that even little boy who found the
45:57woman and the day after her death had
45:59forgiven me and wished me all kind of
46:02Good
46:03Luck run that by me again how are you
46:06able to prove that he framed you by the
46:09voices that a train stenographer listens
46:12to a tape and then they type what they
46:13hear right so in the subtext under each
46:17sentence they would put what they hear
46:19of the accompaning sounds it's called so
46:23if I was to say a sarcastic uh sentence
46:26it would would be typed up as my words
46:28with the sarcasm in descriptive form say
46:31you know a nasty laugh accompanying
46:34right well this proved that the woman
46:38wasn't Listen to Only Randy Martin's
46:40memory of a conversation that he had he
46:44had secretly recorded my conversations
46:47with him during the interrogation in
46:49violation of Pennsylvania Law and thus
46:52making himself guilty of a felony so he
46:55lied and the thing that he made up were
46:58redacted parts from a conversation
47:01anyway that didn't line up and we could
47:03prove that the sentences claimed to have
47:07been made by me were not an actual
47:09sequence to the questions put before me
47:11oh I see right he was taking uh
47:15statements out of context and putting
47:18them with in connection with some other
47:20question so it may look like it was all
47:22right so it would be why did you kill
47:24Mrs Craig Nick I know you're upset by
47:27your girlfriend why did you kill her and
47:30then my response was claimed to have
47:32been silence and then I I wanted to kill
47:36I wanted to tear the whole world apart
47:38when she broke up with me none of my
47:40preceding words made it onto the tape
47:43explaining my answer previous to those
47:47words so he only had her type up words
47:51that made it seem like I was guilty of
47:53answering his question so uh we've seen
47:56this what what sort of Provisions you
47:59you were paid you were given some money
48:01as a result of that lawsuit actually I
48:03had to file a lawsuit against the
48:05insurers of B County because there's no
48:07compensation law in Pennsylvania for
48:10getting it wrong are there compensation
48:12laws in other states they are P Texas
48:15pays $80,000 a year if they get it wrong
48:17and they give Lifetime Medical to the
48:19people they've tortured okay they
48:21execute hundreds of people so no there
48:24are states that do it but Pennsylvania
48:25shamefully won't and fact I found this
48:27out when I was released that I had
48:29nothing coming to me no health care I'm
48:32not on a parole system so I can't get
48:34job training I was sick I couldn't even
48:37because I had nothing so 80,000 a year
48:40in Texas if you're wrongfully convicted
48:42of a crime does it have to be capital
48:44murder doesn't have to be capital murder
48:46it can be anything if you're convicted
48:48wrongfully convicted Texas has a
48:50compensation law 880,000 okay and uh I
48:54know that uh that's a good question and
48:56I'm not sure what the law is in Virginia
48:58I think we need to check on that I do
48:59know that it's kind of on a case-by Case
49:01basis uh I don't think that there's an
49:03actual statutory scheme that puts it in
49:05place like that uh have you had a chance
49:08to to research this for other states no
49:10I haven't the only thing that I've ever
49:12noticed about Virginia was William
49:14Wilder's last day of office where he
49:16left an innocent man in prison and made
49:18him take a life sentence based on not
49:21even telling his lawyer the results of
49:23DNA testing and I was really
49:24disheartened by what some Someone I used
49:27to respect as a politician Doug Wilder
49:29yeah right yeah that's a shame what he
49:31did man because there was a guy who was
49:33innocent from Virginia DNA results came
49:35back and proved this Innocent but his
49:38prosecutor wouldn't tell the results of
49:40the DNA results to the defense attorney
49:43he made him take a deal without knowing
49:45the results even though the results
49:46proved him innocent we're here with uh
49:49Nick Yos the author of seven days to
49:51live he was framed for a murder he
49:54didn't commit and he spent 21 years on
49:56death row in Pennsylvania uh and has now
49:59written this very fascinating book uh
50:02which is uh uh on the news uh available
50:05September 1st uh uh
50:082014 uh and we've just got a couple of
50:10minutes before the break nick uh you got
50:13married uh while you were in prison uh
50:16that's a pretty fascinating thing what
50:17is it about uh men on Death Row that
50:20become attractive to women you married
50:22you met a nice woman who came to see you
50:24how uh we we we we hear about this what
50:28what's what's I was trying to be the
50:30antithesis of someone who wouldn't do
50:32that like I I know it's strange but when
50:35I met Jackie schaer from Pittsburgh I
50:38had 105 years on me plus a death and
50:41there was no such thing as DNA so I was
50:43done and I didn't want this person
50:45falling in love with me and I was on the
50:47verge of telling this person that I
50:48didn't want her coming back to see me
50:51when I found out about DNA in February
50:53of 1988 only five months after meeting
50:56her so it's a strange phenomenon that
50:59that bond that we developed over was
51:02based on my hope that the DNA would
51:04speak for me and that was a different
51:07thing than what I witness that you're
51:09describing and it's a terrible thing
51:10that I witness even Charles Manson is
51:12doing it to this day where he's got a
51:14woman who he is manipulating by making
51:17her change her identity and then getting
51:20her Isola from everything she knew and
51:22getting her head around what he wants
51:24her to be is nothing more than his lady
51:26Foles person so it's a strange thing to
51:29be around that and be aware of the fact
51:32that this woman loves you and everybody
51:34thinks you're doing the same thing but
51:35you thought you were going to have a
51:36life with this Jackie so it I know I oh
51:40yeah I'm gonna you know you're about to
51:42say listen you shouldn't waste your time
51:44on me I I'm and but then hey I D DNA is
51:48going to exonerate me we we'll get out
51:50any any month now I'm going to be out
51:51now we can have a life together and
51:54you're and you went through this 10-year
51:56marriage
51:57with her where you kept getting your
51:58hopes up kept getting your hopes up to
52:01get out and then to have those hopes
52:03dashed uh it just had to just be torture
52:06for both you and Jackie it was gutting
52:08yeah because the evidence spilled on its
52:10way to California to Dr Blake like I
52:12said and that was the break for Jack
52:15Jackie she just couldn't take no more
52:17she figured I was always going to be
52:19cheated out of it and she saw the
52:21determination by them to try and kill me
52:23so and she left in '98 yeah and yeah and
52:28and it was one of those things where it
52:30it became a transition for me to find
52:32out if if I truly had it in me to
52:35survive on my own not with someone there
52:38holding my hand like when I met my
52:40spiritual advisor I was cursing God and
52:42every way there was man I I didn't
52:44believe in anything I I was so angry you
52:47know and at different points that you
52:49get angry and then you realize it's just
52:51eating at you and then I met Walter
52:54ogrod an innocent man who on death row
52:57and it broke my heart and it changed me
52:59yeah and I'm glad that Ernie Ernie's now
53:01a free man I'm glad to say anybody
53:03reading my book Seven Days to Live or go
53:05into my website
53:06nickjr.com you'll see that Ernie Simmons
53:09is a free man and I'm happy for that and
53:11Walder now has a book written about him
53:13by Tom Lowenstein so I'm going to do
53:15what I can to come back and help my
53:16friend I've done that but it's
53:18terrifying that I almost killed myself
53:20over Survivor guilt when I got out I'd
53:23like to talk I'd like to talk about
53:25Walter and Ernie when we get back from
53:27the break this is Justice for All 1650
53:29a.m. this is George Yates I'm your host
53:32and we're talking with Nick yis and when
53:33we come back I'd like to talk about Nick
53:36and his time on a death row and how he
53:39befriended other inmates whom he
53:41believed to be guilty uh even though he
53:44was innocent and it turned out that they
53:46were ultimately exonerated as well and
53:48got off of death row and those are some
53:50uh uh some some good stories to hear so
53:53we'll be right back uh after this break
53:55with Justice for All
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54:26[Music]
54:48okay we're back with Justice for All I'm
54:50George y 1650 a.m. uh thank you for
54:53listening we uh are in our uh second
54:55hour of our interview with uh Nick yis
54:58the author of seven days to live uh
55:00framed for murder 21 years on death row
55:03for a crime he didn't commit and uh
55:06while uh while you were in prison U Nick
55:08you uh befriended some other people and
55:11uh one of them is an interesting
55:12character named Walter
55:14ogude uh and
55:16ogrod and he was a uh a creepy very
55:20creepy uh child killer you believed and
55:23at first when you first met him you
55:25didn't want to to be anywhere near him
55:27and nobody wanted to be anywhere near
55:29him he was the worst kind of uh killer
55:31because he'd killed a child later you um
55:34as you began U meeting him in the law
55:36library and learning a little bit about
55:38his case you learned about his case from
55:40from Ernie didn't you yeah it's it's
55:43strange another prisoner told me who was
55:46he actually chasti chastised me for not
55:49talking to water in the law library
55:51because water sought me out for help but
55:53in his diminished way he got the words
55:55wrong when he asked me and I
55:56like you said I I held myself a little
55:59bit away from him because if he killed
56:02that little girl I didn't want nothing
56:03to do with him because I've been around
56:04some of them you know and you weren't
56:05the so you were not the only innocent
56:07man on death row Walter ogr is was
56:10innocent and so was this fellow what's
56:12Ernie's last name Ernie Simmons and was
56:14Ernie Ernie yeah Ernie Ernie Simmons
56:17he's now released he's from Scranton
56:20Pennsylvania and uh yeah he's he's set
56:23free and he was the other man that I was
56:24battling for so tell tell us tell us
56:27about Walter AR he's still in prison and
56:30for a crime he didn't commit tell us
56:32about him well a little girl in
56:35Philadelphia at the age of five was
56:37abducted uh sexually assaulted murdered
56:39and put into a television box by someone
56:42of a very nasty clever mental makeup
56:47someone evil Tru
56:50evil Walter ogrod lived on the same
56:53street had nothing to do with the crime
56:55but when his own brother brother and his
56:57future sister-in-law were attacked in
56:59his home and the girl that was to marry
57:01his brother was murdered Walter went to
57:03the police as a good citizen to talk to
57:05the police about that crime while he was
57:09there to talk about his brother's
57:10attempted murder and his sister-in-law
57:12being murdered a police officer noted
57:15that he lived on the same street and
57:16that this was a sort of a weirdo so he
57:19asked Walter did you have anything to do
57:22with amarie fahy's murder on the little
57:25girl in the TV box and waler said yeah I
57:29know about it so the officer stopped the
57:32interview went out and got another
57:33officer and they got a confession out of
57:35this man who had an IQ that showed that
57:38he wasn't the clever person who did this
57:40very diabolical crime water was
57:43acquitted by a jury but the jury had a
57:46member who secretly held back until the
57:50V deer and what during the polling of
57:52each individual juror he shouted out
57:55that water was actually guilty they
57:56declared a mistrial put Walder back in
57:59custody and then they got a guy named
58:01John Hall the monior of confession
58:04taking they called him to say that
58:06Walter confessed to him put Walter back
58:08on trial and got a conviction now Walder
58:10sits on death row lingering for a crime
58:12he didn't do and it broke my heart that
58:14I was actually cold towards him and
58:16nasty at first because who the f was I
58:19to act like that when this man has had
58:21it worse than I have so I started
58:22writing lawyers for him and this is the
58:24truth a man came came to me from the
58:26media named Tom Lowenstein and he tried
58:28to rescue me and save my life but it I
58:31said do me a favor why don't you help
58:34Walder OG God and so he's just written a
58:37book about alter because I and this is
58:39back when I was on death row I didn't
58:41have no resources nothing I told him
58:43please go and help Walter because I got
58:46things to do I'm going to get myself
58:47executed won't you help
58:50him what forensic evidence linked Walter
58:53to the crime and did they do it with
58:55nothing DNA wise has been washed clean
58:58by a very clever criminal Walter ogra
59:01doesn't have the mental capacity to go
59:03his whole life with recordings of his
59:06mental status on record to then having
59:10one day where he outwits the entire law
59:13enforcement community and then goes back
59:14to his diminished normal self that
59:16doesn't happen so how does Walter get
59:20himself free can
59:22he is there a possibility but I keep
59:24telling I keep telling Phil you that I
59:26haven't forgotten my friend is still
59:28sitting there but I have to walk a tight
59:30Road on this because I almost killed
59:31myself in self in depression over this
59:34because of survivor's guilt why am I
59:36free when my friend is innocent just
59:39like I was but he's still there and it
59:41was really hard for me even dealing with
59:43Ernie being released strangely enough
59:45because I couldn't protect him and
59:47couldn't tell him how hard it is out
59:49here first 10 years of my freedom have
59:51been a rocket ride through every inhuman
59:53emotion you can imagine how how many uh
59:56uh how many people are there on death
59:57row in the United States today roughly
1:00:003500 3500 people uh got any idea uh now
1:00:06tell us what what is this called the
1:00:08what is the Innocence Project for those
1:00:10folks out there don't know what thato
1:00:12the cardoo scho of law in the 1980s
1:00:15began proving innocent people uh well
1:00:19getting them their freedom through DNA
1:00:21efforts uh it's run by Barry Sheek and
1:00:24Peter newfeld and it's uh of course of
1:00:26every book that I saw I'm actually going
1:00:27to give a donation to them because
1:00:30they've gotten so many people out of the
1:00:32situation that I lived in and it's a
1:00:34shocker that 111 people were set free
1:00:37alone last year from exonerations and
1:00:39another 60 some this year alone so the
1:00:42numbers are still staggering they're not
1:00:44all death row cases like mine but the
1:00:46numbers of years of people being taken
1:00:49away from them is just extraordinary now
1:00:52uh they use DNA mostly to
1:00:54exonerate DNA faulty witness uh physical
1:00:58evidence being suppressed uh other
1:01:01perpetrators being caught for the crime
1:01:04uh a lot of it has been um done on a
1:01:08student level by the Northwestern School
1:01:10of Law the California Innocence Project
1:01:13and many others and a lot of it is
1:01:15investigation Again by a non-p police
1:01:19officer and it's one of the things that
1:01:21I was happy with in England is that they
1:01:23have a what is called a community r viw
1:01:26board where ordinary citizens are picked
1:01:28each month to go and review cases to see
1:01:31if they can come up with logical reasons
1:01:33why they should not be investigated in
1:01:35such well what do you do with a false
1:01:38confession case like Walter ogrod for
1:01:40instance if it's just a false confession
1:01:42and let's just uh you know legally
1:01:45you've got case you you've run your
1:01:47you've gone through the appeals process
1:01:49which is fairly perfunctory most of the
1:01:51time the court of appeals will just
1:01:52uphold the confession because it came in
1:01:55it goes to the Supreme Court of uh
1:01:57Pennsylvania in his case uh it's it's
1:02:00affirmed where where uh how legally does
1:02:03Innocence Project come in and challenge
1:02:05this once the a lot of it is their
1:02:07investigative efforts and the DNA works
1:02:10so many times like you saw there's been
1:02:12over 400 people set free by DNA alone in
1:02:14the last 10 years but aren't there
1:02:16procedural things out there that say oh
1:02:18uh you know you you've Exon you you've
1:02:21you you've already exhausted all your
1:02:23appeals uh even though you might have
1:02:26new evidence it's too late yeah we've
1:02:29we've seen that already and we've heard
1:02:31from the court evidence ofg time yeah
1:02:35innocence is not an actual
1:02:38claim I mean you can claim that your
1:02:40client has facts that support a
1:02:43different verdict but claiming that your
1:02:45client is innocent is a waste of time
1:02:47because it's not really relevant to the
1:02:48appell at process right it's just and
1:02:51yet wouldn't you think that be the most
1:02:53important thing tell us about the
1:02:55lawyers that represent presented you
1:02:56that didn't believe that you were
1:02:57innocent I know you wrote in your book
1:02:59about some that you just you weren't too
1:03:01kind to them uh tell us about no I'm
1:03:05glad I made up for it so all the
1:03:06listeners who will read the book
1:03:08eventually I hope will know that my
1:03:10first Tri uh pellet attorney thought
1:03:13that I was guilty and he wanted me to
1:03:14know this even before he met me and when
1:03:17I did meet him he had already uh filed
1:03:20my appeal so I used that as an incident
1:03:24to actually stand up for myself to
1:03:26people who were treating me with
1:03:27professional difference and that's what
1:03:29he was an example of it see I wrote the
1:03:31book with the idea that I would be
1:03:33seated with an audience facing a blank
1:03:35wall with them then I would introduce
1:03:37each person along the way and show how
1:03:39they and them changed who I was and who
1:03:43I became before knowing them and after I
1:03:46made a real effort to be fair in all
1:03:48ways to a lot of people and I know that
1:03:50I made Folly of of the attorney but the
1:03:53truth is even after I got out I did the
1:03:56right thing cuz he approached me and
1:03:57said Nick we had a bad history but I
1:03:59have a client who's guilty and he's
1:04:01going to put a family his own family to
1:04:04a very nasty capital murder trial when
1:04:07all I need you to do is go and talk to
1:04:08him and get him to plead guilty and then
1:04:10he'll go ahead and spare that family
1:04:12that's misery would you do that for me
1:04:14and I looked at him and I said sure give
1:04:16me the number to call or just tell me
1:04:18where I got to go so I could help that
1:04:20family and we shook
1:04:23hands you write this book as if you are
1:04:26a a trained writer uh you go into prison
1:04:29when you're 20 years old you spend uh
1:04:32about right you're 20 and 82 yes yeah
1:04:35and nearly and nearly completely
1:04:37illiterate too couldn't write a
1:04:39paragraph to save my life you where did
1:04:41you learn to uh string sentences and
1:04:44paragraphs because uh uh listen this is
1:04:47justice for all with George 81650 amm
1:04:49radio we're here with Nick Garis he
1:04:51wrote this incredible book Seven Days to
1:04:52Live it's a fast easy
1:04:55exciting read about uh you the justice
1:04:58system in America and it's it's
1:05:01revelatory really about how you survived
1:05:03on death row and come out of it with
1:05:06this wonderful love for Humanity um you
1:05:09you hear about people that that uh you
1:05:11know when you what's the old adage Nick
1:05:13that you you you you seem to uh fly in
1:05:17the face of that that you know 20 years
1:05:19on in prison you're you're
1:05:21institutionalized right we hear this
1:05:23that oh anybody that spends more than 20
1:05:25years in prison will never be able to
1:05:27survive on the outside uh is there any
1:05:29truth to that that uh that that well it
1:05:31it's an expectation of everyone based on
1:05:33their own ability to handle what they
1:05:35worst imagine so it's like saying to to
1:05:39the same question oh God you know I
1:05:42couldn't handle that well I did and I've
1:05:45not only done so but I've developed from
1:05:47it in fact that that's one of my saving
1:05:49Graces I learned from my simple
1:05:54Beginnings where officer took pity on me
1:05:57cuz I used to beat my head on the wall
1:05:58in frustration and when I was coming
1:06:00back from the nurses station to get my
1:06:02head patched up he let me stop in this
1:06:04cell and pick out some books I never
1:06:07knew that some of them were Classics and
1:06:08all that but I knew one of them was a
1:06:101970 dictionary with the cover Miss and
1:06:13only and I had a GED book exercise
1:06:16booklet and that became along with a
1:06:181936 tablers medical encyclopedic the
1:06:22foundation of my education and I worked
1:06:25because I recognize something if I
1:06:27didn't fill out a request slip correctly
1:06:29and asked for two clean sheets or
1:06:31misfiled anything on that request they
1:06:33would send it back and torment me and
1:06:36everything that I got wrong in writing
1:06:38they would torment me for and every time
1:06:40I tried to speak and I didn't have the
1:06:42eloquence to speak they laughed at me
1:06:44and they mocked me I worked and I worked
1:06:47and I worked and I still remember today
1:06:49when I celebrated reading my first
1:06:5110,000 books how accomplished I felt and
1:06:53how at peace I felt because I thought I
1:06:56knew so much you know you read 10,000
1:06:58books while you were in prison more than
1:07:01that but yeah that alone was yeah I used
1:07:03to I got hooked I was a drug addict so
1:07:06give a junkie a new Addiction he'll go
1:07:08crazy on it and I did I went mad on
1:07:10education and reading and I used to read
1:07:12three different books in a day where I
1:07:14would pick up a comedy in the morning
1:07:15and have a drama in the afternoon and
1:07:17have a mystery at night I'd loved what
1:07:20people taught me from their writing more
1:07:22importantly and I became very Adept at
1:07:25looking at authors like like Duma or
1:07:27Hugo and the sufferings that they went
1:07:29through or how khil gabron lost his
1:07:31whole family writing the prophet but yet
1:07:34produced this beautiful work of art and
1:07:36I thought if I could adapt myself to
1:07:38this type of thought I could write the
1:07:40same style and passion and bring the
1:07:43story to life and make humor part of it
1:07:45and make it
1:07:47everything you describe a rape uh of you
1:07:51as a young boy uh uh it's a very
1:07:54traumatic uh horrifying um act against
1:07:59you when you were young which you said
1:08:02made you develop something called
1:08:04ephesia ephesia yeah and and yet now you
1:08:08you don't suffer from that obviously
1:08:09anymore you're able to once did you can
1:08:12still tell I flub words I get things
1:08:15wrong I become excited um emotions are
1:08:18hard to re uh refrain from because why
1:08:21did why why didn't you come forward and
1:08:23tell your parents about this rape so you
1:08:25could have uh when he said he'd kill my
1:08:28family and my dog how old were you you
1:08:30have to understand the person that I was
1:08:32dealing with wasn't somebody you didn't
1:08:34doubt I've seen him beat grown men up
1:08:37and I was only seven so what chance
1:08:39could I stand against someone so
1:08:41physical and big and it terrified me
1:08:44that he would catch me in the alley or
1:08:46something and reinforce his threats with
1:08:48with new threats and and always looking
1:08:50at me and wondering if I told and after
1:08:53a while I didn't think anyone would
1:08:55believe me so that came to the Mendoza
1:08:58point where you're living with it
1:08:59because you're now joined to your
1:09:01attacker in a secrecy that only you know
1:09:05is going to be believed only by no
1:09:07one so you never told anyone about it
1:09:10until you wrote this book until I was 24
1:09:13years old and I was on death row and I
1:09:15came back from death row and I sat down
1:09:17with my parents and I said look I'm
1:09:19pretty much going to be
1:09:21executed but poppy that was my dad I
1:09:24called him said I got to tell you that
1:09:27what happened to me as a boy and why I
1:09:29acted the way I did in the life that I
1:09:31live is not your fault and he said what
1:09:33do you mean I
1:09:35said someone did something to me long
1:09:38ago that made you unable to stop me from
1:09:41being who I was and he broke down and I
1:09:44I explained to him and he wanted to go
1:09:46kill the guy and all that and I said no
1:09:48just let it go man it just it's not
1:09:51worth it it's not even meaningful
1:09:53anymore I got a chance to change my life
1:09:55now because I'm no longer held to the
1:09:59secret and so he was still alive this
1:10:01fell when you told your dad at 24 you
1:10:03still could have done something about it
1:10:05or prosecuted him
1:10:06even Yeah well yeah too late him right
1:10:10right so your parents uh uh um survived
1:10:14your uh entire incarceration and
1:10:17actually met you and took you home from
1:10:20prison yeah and then I found out how
1:10:23overwhelming their suffering had truly
1:10:25been and see my mother and your sister
1:10:27still there's even a video on YouTube
1:10:29about her conducting her own
1:10:31investigation she was my alibi witness
1:10:33at dinner with me how do you tell a
1:10:36mother you're a liar your son's a
1:10:39murderer and you're protected him and
1:10:42then spit in her face that's what people
1:10:43did to my mother yeah you had
1:10:46Al you were home with your family the
1:10:49night that Linda May Craig was murdered
1:10:51you had an alibi a good Alibi but your
1:10:54parents were uh your mother uh who else
1:10:57was your other Alibi witness my father
1:11:00and my sister Mabel yeah we were all uh
1:11:02accused of conspiring to lie and my
1:11:05father would be fired from jobs my mom
1:11:07was cornered in the supermarket by some
1:11:09women who spit on her and called her the
1:11:11mother of a murderer people used to ring
1:11:13my parents' house all night and wake
1:11:15them up and tell them that you raised
1:11:17the murderer you scum you should die
1:11:19like them or make the sound of the
1:11:21electric chair on the on the phone the
1:11:24uh the a prison cell for a capital
1:11:27murder death row inmate is 7t by 11 ft
1:11:33roughly yeah that's and is there a
1:11:36toilet in there five steps forward three
1:11:38back you have to make a turn there there
1:11:40a toilet yeah there a toilet a metal
1:11:43bunk and a metal uh desk is there a
1:11:46TV n that was a luxury you could earn
1:11:49through privileges or they gave you one
1:11:52later on but I I saw this poison I put
1:11:54under the bed I only took it out for
1:11:56sports and stuff like that so uh you
1:11:58didn't watch much
1:11:59TV I tried not to I only watched uh PBS
1:12:04programs on education stuff I tried to
1:12:06stay away from the Mind numbing because
1:12:08I saw what it does to guys uh some
1:12:10prisoners wouldn't even go to the
1:12:12hospital for treatment because they
1:12:13would miss their soap operation [ __ ]
1:12:15it's crazy what they go through yeah you
1:12:17you describe prisoners that will watch
1:12:19television 24 hours a day if they could
1:12:22yeah because it's a reality replacement
1:12:24for what they
1:12:26did some of them delighted in torment us
1:12:29some of them performed acts portraying
1:12:32the death of some of their victims and
1:12:34such yeah a lot of men there many of
1:12:37course many of the we've talked a little
1:12:39bit about the people in death row that
1:12:41are innocent U of course the vast
1:12:44majority of them are probably guilty for
1:12:46what they've done because they've even
1:12:48confessed to it and the confessions are
1:12:50real and you describe in your book you
1:12:52know people that apparently r and the
1:12:55fact that they're guilty of the crimes
1:12:56that they commit tell us about these uh
1:13:00sickos well the thing is you you find
1:13:03that and this is a lesson that I'm glad
1:13:06I learned the most horrible predator of
1:13:10women and children those serial killers
1:13:11to a man they're all
1:13:13cowards face another man face someone
1:13:16who would be a serious threat never and
1:13:18that's the thing they're predators and
1:13:20the the way that they talk about
1:13:22Humanity shows and the way that they act
1:13:24and stuff I've had dealings with some a
1:13:26couple of them tried to stalk me to
1:13:28murder me and stuff I had no time for
1:13:30them I wasn't a convict so I didn't live
1:13:32a Creed of a convict I wasn't a guard I
1:13:35wasn't I was at none of these things I
1:13:38was a visitor in this alien world and I
1:13:41was going to keep myself as an alien
1:13:43until I got out of there because I
1:13:44didn't want to fall prey to the mindset
1:13:46of having this bid like code where I
1:13:49would attack and kill people because
1:13:51they wronged me and stuff like I learned
1:13:54about able lesson anger is a is a free
1:13:57man's luxury well I'm fascinated by how
1:14:01you're able to do 21 years be for a
1:14:04crime you didn't commit and not be
1:14:06angry well I if you look at
1:14:09it I had to pay for what I was let's
1:14:13make this clear I was a scumbag I was a
1:14:15thief I was a liar I cheated people I I
1:14:19wronged people I I disgraced myself so I
1:14:23had to pay and I'm made myself pay and
1:14:27pay and pay until I felt it was fair and
1:14:30then I paid some more so that I could
1:14:32hold my head up for what I was and how I
1:14:35started this by making up a stupid story
1:14:38about that woman's crime I made myself
1:14:41suffer for that not for what they made
1:14:43me suffer
1:14:44for the the effort that you made on your
1:14:48own behalf to get yourself exonerated uh
1:14:52and you you describe it in the book so
1:14:54eloquently
1:14:55uh you you woke up every day uh
1:14:58determined to prove your innocence for
1:15:0115 years was that your
1:15:03single-minded uh I mean you you write
1:15:06about it in the book that way is that is
1:15:08that actually what it how it was
1:15:11you from March of 1988 until your
1:15:15release in 2004 was that just a
1:15:18single-minded effort on your part every
1:15:20single day it it became a torment at
1:15:23times too because hope is terrible thing
1:15:26at times when you want so much for so
1:15:29many other people Hope just drags all
1:15:32the life out of you so at times I was
1:15:35terribly tested by the the desire to get
1:15:38the DNA testing done and then I went
1:15:40through so many phases where I was
1:15:41cheated and it was never going to come
1:15:44and then when I was sick and dying I
1:15:46didn't think it was real so I let go and
1:15:49it's strange how it was only going to
1:15:51come about once I let go and took
1:15:53control of my destiny and I'm I'm proud
1:15:55of what I did but it took a lot of hurt
1:15:57and it hurt a lot of people and I'm sad
1:16:00for what it
1:16:01happened you uh um had a uh a marriage
1:16:07that lasted 10 years and then after the
1:16:12uh your marriage broke up from 98 did
1:16:14you have other significant relationships
1:16:16with women uh when you were from let's
1:16:18say 98 until 2004 no I went on this like
1:16:22this different Journey um I managed to
1:16:25Ser circumnavigate the globe while
1:16:27sitting on death row by mailing out
1:16:29Snippets of my hair to pen pals all over
1:16:31the world instead of one person I wrote
1:16:34to everybody I could and I shared
1:16:36vicariously their lives and I have pen
1:16:39pals that when I was finally released
1:16:41invited me to go and visit them in
1:16:42Poland and in France and the United
1:16:45Kingdom and it was wonderful that they
1:16:47knew me at a time when my life was so
1:16:50sincere that they could still see I'm
1:16:52still that person that got out of that
1:16:54for and remained true to being that
1:16:56person you uh strange very strange you
1:17:00ultimately sued uh uh the people that
1:17:03convicted you wrongfully and you settled
1:17:05the case how much money did you receive
1:17:06or is that class $4 million you received
1:17:09$4 million how much of that came to
1:17:12you three and then um I gave it all away
1:17:16I was robbed of it all so I went from
1:17:20being a millionaire in 2008 to being
1:17:23destitute in 20
1:17:25where' all the money
1:17:27go a lot of it was stolen from my uh ex
1:17:31partner um she took a a million dollars
1:17:35from me uh a lot of it went uh to uh
1:17:39defend my book in court a lot of it just
1:17:43was given to family and a lot of people
1:17:45saw that I was a soft touch that they
1:17:47came up with every imaginable ploy to
1:17:49rob me yeah so I had people just and it
1:17:52was a shame that they it I I lost a lot
1:17:55of relationships because of the money
1:17:58and in the end I it didn't matter
1:17:59anymore so it was pity money you know
1:18:01what I mean so you when you got out of
1:18:04prison in 2004 you got married and you
1:18:07had a
1:18:08child yeah Laura and she's seven years
1:18:12old where just turned eight eight where
1:18:14does she live in the United Kingdom and
1:18:17do you get to see her uh I live now in
1:18:20California so now and do you have a
1:18:22visitation schedule or do you have any
1:18:24kind of Arrangement where you get to see
1:18:26her or no sadly that didn't go well so I
1:18:28decided to let her develop in happiness
1:18:30with the money that I gave to her mother
1:18:32all right and I figure at least she's a
1:18:34millionaire she doesn't have to worry
1:18:36about anything so you have no
1:18:38communication with Laura at all no I've
1:18:41been cheated out of that and it was a
1:18:43test not to do violence to to the world
1:18:46over something like that but I learned
1:18:48again that and you've and you've
1:18:50remarried it's your ego isn't it at
1:18:52George you've been pested by this young
1:18:54man you've seen the damage that people
1:18:55do because of their ego they destroy
1:18:58their lives their relationships and who
1:19:00they are because of their ego and I'm
1:19:02determined not to do that if it wasn't
1:19:04for my recognition of what was done to
1:19:06me in prison I couldn't be in love with
1:19:08Jesse and that's where I I'm really
1:19:11happy that everything turned around
1:19:13because she read the book and like you
1:19:15she took time to see who I was for the
1:19:17writing and then she sought me out and
1:19:20we began a relationship four years ago
1:19:22and it turned out to be all the the
1:19:24Saving Grace that I could ever hope for
1:19:27we're here with Nick Yus his book is
1:19:29seven days to live uh framed for murder
1:19:32he didn't commit and spent 21 years on
1:19:34death row in Pennsylvania uh before he
1:19:36was exonerated by DNA evidence and
1:19:38declared innocent of the murder of uh
1:19:41Linda May Craig in 1982 we're going to
1:19:44take a short break we'll come back for
1:19:46the last uh 25 minutes of our interview
1:19:49with Mr Yus and we'll be right back
1:19:50after these messages Oldtown Tavern in
1:19:53the heart of Feebas is your place for a
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1:20:0931 East Bon Street in Hampton with
1:20:11plenty of parking in the back call
1:20:14251-263
1:20:16251-263 bringing great food and great
1:20:19people together Oldtown Tavern the
1:20:21locals choice
1:20:23[Music]
1:20:44okay this is uh George Yates we're we
1:20:47we're on the justice for all show uh
1:20:501650 a.m. and we'll be here for another
1:20:5330 minutes with Nick Yas continuing in
1:20:55his account of his years in prison
1:20:58wrongfully convicted of a crime he
1:21:00didn't commit um I I we were just saying
1:21:03during the break uh we were talking off
1:21:04the air and I was just saying to uh to
1:21:06Nick yis here if if I were were
1:21:09wrongfully convicted of a crime and I
1:21:11had escaped from prison and I was in you
1:21:14know Fort Lauderdale Florida and I was
1:21:16free I would never turn myself back in I
1:21:18just wouldn't do it I'm just would you
1:21:20were I was reading your book I said okay
1:21:22he's escaped he's free
1:21:25and what are his choices to try to stay
1:21:27on the run and and and get loose or go
1:21:29back to this uh torture chamber of a
1:21:32prison in Pennsylvania where all they
1:21:34want to do is kill me I I wouldn't have
1:21:36gone back I I wouldn't have escaped uh I
1:21:38mean I wouldn't have gone back if I
1:21:40escaped I I wouldn't have turned myself
1:21:41back in again I'm just wouldn't have
1:21:42done it and I I was reading your book I
1:21:44said God he turned himself back in and
1:21:47uh and you did it after a conversation
1:21:49you had with your father uh what what
1:21:52was that and uh and what would make you
1:21:55turn yourself back in after you've
1:21:57escaped in fact when you turned yourself
1:21:59back in you didn't even want to let the
1:22:01other prisoners know you done that
1:22:03because you knew you would you they
1:22:05would uh turn on you torture me yeah
1:22:07yeah why did you go back to prison after
1:22:09you'd escaped what in the world why
1:22:11would you ever go back cuz I knew that
1:22:14my brother Mikey who was only 11 months
1:22:16older me was having pistols thrown to
1:22:18his head and thrown to the ground and
1:22:20every time he went into a bar to have a
1:22:22drink somebody thought it was me cuz we
1:22:24looked similar and he was carrying the
1:22:27burden of it and they were raiding my
1:22:29family's house with SWAT and they they
1:22:31weren't going to stop looking for a
1:22:33death row prisoner escape who they
1:22:35thought was going to go and kill someone
1:22:36else so I had two
1:22:38choices either man up and go back and I
1:22:41mean you got to understand I knew what
1:22:44they were going to do to me and they did
1:22:47exactly what I figured they beat me for
1:22:504 minutes with trunions that were 3 foot
1:22:52long those Riot sticks man they beat me
1:22:54so bad they knocked a piece of my eye
1:22:56out I I knew that was coming but what do
1:23:00you do you let your family hold the bag
1:23:02you let them suffer you let them linger
1:23:05on being tortured at least if you're
1:23:06back in prison everything can go quiet
1:23:08again and you can maybe let them have a
1:23:10life that's what I was thinking what did
1:23:13what did your dad say to you that made
1:23:15you go back I can't do anything for you
1:23:18Nick this is too big you got to do this
1:23:21and I was like oh man so there was
1:23:24FBI agent in the Philadelphia office who
1:23:27was really a nice guy named Bud Warner
1:23:30so I said dad do me a favor and call off
1:23:32sir Warner and tell him you know I'm in
1:23:35Valia County and they need to come and
1:23:37get me cuz I can't promise that I'll
1:23:39just be here I hung the phone up and I
1:23:41just sat there and man Jesus the the all
1:23:45the people in the world came out of
1:23:47nowhere and yeah they made really good
1:23:50Folly of me of showing me out to be this
1:23:53the rang person but the truth is it it
1:23:56didn't matter that I handed myself back
1:23:57in I had scared everybody so I was the
1:24:00monster tell us about Ted Bundy you were
1:24:03you served a Time on death row in
1:24:05Florida uh when Florida was one of the
1:24:07worst places to be uh that he was
1:24:10ultimately executed in Florida for uh a
1:24:13series of murders uh how did you have
1:24:15contact with Ted Bundy uh tell our
1:24:18listeners about him he's probably one of
1:24:19the most 198 in 1985 when I went to
1:24:22Florida's death row in the East unit of
1:24:25Rayford uh Ted had gotten in trouble by
1:24:28telling the Press how he got one of his
1:24:30groupies pregnant so everybody on death
1:24:33row lost their contact visit and
1:24:35everybody wanted to kill them so they
1:24:36had them back in the hole with me and
1:24:39since I was in escapia a high risk they
1:24:41had us all in this secure area and we
1:24:44all talked amongst ourselves through the
1:24:46ventilation system but everybody hated
1:24:48on uh Ted for what he had been and he
1:24:52used it as his opportunity just to just
1:24:54interfere with everything we spoke of or
1:24:56anything he was just a nightmare to deal
1:24:58with and he was this super cious person
1:25:01where everything but was below him and
1:25:04he saw from afar how Godlike he was and
1:25:06it was sick and I I had an incident
1:25:08where he spit on me and everything but
1:25:10it just goes to show that once again
1:25:12people like that are just you know
1:25:14they're the void of any human redemption
1:25:16in a lot of ways and the best thing to
1:25:18do is just let them Rock there with
1:25:19their own hope Ted Bundy was uh on death
1:25:23row and ultimately was that executed in
1:25:25Florida uh uh for uh 26 uh murders more
1:25:30than that according to the state uh
1:25:32Federal prosecutors something like 48
1:25:34possible victims but you know this was
1:25:36all during the mid to late 70s in
1:25:38Washington state and I remember uh I
1:25:40lived in Washington state during those
1:25:42years I was in college up uh in the
1:25:44Seattle area and uh I remember uh
1:25:47talking with a friend of mine one time
1:25:49the the the fellow uh he was only known
1:25:52as Ted they knew there was there was
1:25:54this killer about and everyone knew that
1:25:57his name was Ted and um and and so I
1:26:00remember one time a friend of mine a
1:26:03young guy talking to a girl in a bar uh
1:26:06you know trying to meet her or something
1:26:08like that and he had said to me that
1:26:09this girl said to him I can't go with
1:26:12you for all I know you might be Ted and
1:26:15and so yeah he's really famous for that
1:26:18because there was a period of time where
1:26:19the entire Seattle area was just
1:26:22terrorized by that because there was a
1:26:23lot of
1:26:24women glorified in it he loved that he
1:26:27talk about how women disappear women
1:26:29were disappearing all over in Seattle
1:26:31and the Green Lake area and so on uh you
1:26:34know from and then he he left the
1:26:36Seattle area and then the murders began
1:26:38happening around what was it Tallahassee
1:26:40uh and around Florida State and I guess
1:26:42or or or gain well after he this is how
1:26:45he tried to befriend me because he
1:26:46escaped from custody and he went through
1:26:48the extradition process so he tried to
1:26:50befriend me under the notion that he was
1:26:52going to save me from going back to
1:26:53Pennsylvania
1:26:54like I needed saving from something I
1:26:56turned myself in for but I didn't have
1:26:58time for him and when I disrespected him
1:27:00he just went and this is the strangest
1:27:01thing he was only slight I'd say 5'9
1:27:05maybe 170 pounds he wasn't big he'd
1:27:07actually gone to law school yeah this
1:27:10thing that went that came out in him
1:27:11freaked me out like it was how can I
1:27:14describe it all right there was a person
1:27:16in front of me talking to me in this
1:27:19very um solicitous manner very
1:27:23professional
1:27:24who once I said to him that I didn't
1:27:27share the same Joy of getting my jollies
1:27:29off by killing little girls thinking
1:27:30about killing my mommy this thing
1:27:33happened in him where he transitioned
1:27:35into this Beast is all I can say where
1:27:39the fting mouth be trembling and his
1:27:42face twitching and the cord of vein and
1:27:46his neck and forehead combined with this
1:27:49smell an overpowering smell of chemical
1:27:52that came out of him wow wow like this I
1:27:56you cannot ever imagine a complete flip
1:28:00unless you've seen an animal do it like
1:28:02you see an animal on those shows where
1:28:05they attack for no reason and stuff this
1:28:08is the only way to make sense of it and
1:28:10the smell it was like ammonia mixed with
1:28:13really pungent sweat and it was really
1:28:17where he was this demon no this one was
1:28:20different this oh my god wow and here
1:28:23you were a condemned killer and you
1:28:25weren't a killer and here you were face
1:28:27to face with a real killer yeah and then
1:28:30we were separated by this metal mesh of
1:28:32the the screens in the law library but
1:28:34he was kicking against it and screaming
1:28:36and I I held my legal folder up while he
1:28:38just went he kept saying things it was
1:28:41weird the the things he screamed were
1:28:43like these
1:28:46um drawn out things like I will rain
1:28:50down upon you and like it wasn't the
1:28:52thing somebody says to you that's normal
1:28:54like hey you [ __ ] excuse my language
1:28:57hey you bastard I'll kill you you know
1:28:58what I mean he was full on with this
1:29:00like uh drawing up these references of
1:29:04of Demolition and and destruction and
1:29:07rainning down upon me with you know brim
1:29:10it was weird it was so weird to
1:29:12encounter someone so completely insane
1:29:15yeah he he I guess he was had a messiah
1:29:18complex uh yeah and that's what it was
1:29:21the things he screamed how he was going
1:29:22to make me feel the woes of
1:29:25Saul yeah I'll make you crawl to the
1:29:28Damascus gates in pain he was screaming
1:29:31and I'm thinking you're not even
1:29:32Christian what the hell are you scream
1:29:34but I guess it made it sound very
1:29:35terrifying in his
1:29:37mind when was he executed what year was
1:29:40that uh a couple years after I left so I
1:29:43think it was 89 or somewhere around
1:29:44there he was executed and uh they
1:29:47actually executed Jesse travo in Florida
1:29:50who was innocent and his wife uh got out
1:29:53and she was proven innocent Sunny Jacobs
1:29:56and I met her and it's a shame that I
1:29:58actually knew uh Jesse and that I told
1:30:02Jesse uh his wife a quaint story of when
1:30:05I met Jesse how he wore a Buddhist ring
1:30:07and it broke my heart to know that he
1:30:09was actually innocent like her but they
1:30:11executed him how did you know he was
1:30:12innocent after he got executed well the
1:30:14other guy confessed now hasn't he oh see
1:30:17Jesse and his wife picked up a friend
1:30:18and took him on a ride in Florida along
1:30:20the highway and 2:00 in the morning the
1:30:22officer was shot at a rest stop but it
1:30:24showed that the bullets came from the
1:30:25passenger front seat and the person in
1:30:27the front passenger seat wasn't Jesse
1:30:30travo and it wasn't his wife Sunny who
1:30:32was sleeping in the back seat of the car
1:30:34with the babies it was the guy they
1:30:36picked up and he finally well he was
1:30:39smart he took the deal and and claimed
1:30:41that Jesse and sunny did the murders for
1:30:44a life sentence while they went to death
1:30:45row and he was smart enough to Parlay
1:30:48that into spar's life after he did that
1:30:50he then told the truth but it's too late
1:30:51isn't it yeah to death is different
1:30:54isn't it yep it's a police officer
1:30:57they're going to put somebody on death
1:30:59row oh yeah oh yeah so a smart criminal
1:31:02says hey I I'll take the deal I'll plead
1:31:05guilty you don't even have to have a
1:31:08trial yeah so someone else on you you
1:31:13you've been released since
1:31:152004 uh and now here it is
1:31:172014 uh you've just releasing this book
1:31:21you've got a film apparently and another
1:31:23book tell us about about uh first of all
1:31:25this book uh for those of you whove just
1:31:26tuned in we're on Justice for All 1650
1:31:29a.m. I'm George Yates I'm your host uh
1:31:31we've been here for the last hour and a
1:31:33half or so with uh the author Nick Yus
1:31:36who did 21 years on death row for this
1:31:37crime he didn't commit and now you've
1:31:39got another a film coming out and
1:31:41another book tell us about that yeah I
1:31:44have um I'm going to release my second
1:31:47book next year to follow on with this
1:31:49first book Seven Days to Live um and I
1:31:52have a documentary that's going to come
1:31:54out in January so I'm very excited that
1:31:56I'm getting the chance to go and promote
1:31:58my art in a very positive way since
1:32:01being released I went and I strived very
1:32:04hard to become a very polished speaker
1:32:06so that I could show young people who
1:32:08gone through childhood trauma that they
1:32:10can overcome it with education that they
1:32:12can work at it and get for themselves a
1:32:14platform if they wish it's been a great
1:32:17honor that I spoken at Cambridge Oxford
1:32:19Stanford
1:32:20University um throughout the United
1:32:22Kingdom I've spoken
1:32:24it's been a great great honor that young
1:32:26people get this message that it isn't
1:32:29all about the glory of all the the story
1:32:32it's the True Heart of the message that
1:32:34we have to be loyal to the things that
1:32:36matter do do you tell people um if they
1:32:40were threatened with the same kind of
1:32:41threats that you had to come forward how
1:32:44do you how do you feel about your
1:32:45decision not yeah that's one of the
1:32:46things that I I'm really touchy about
1:32:48cuz I don't ever want to come across as
1:32:50someone who should say things uh in in
1:32:53this regard because I did the opposite I
1:32:55kept my mouth shut I can just show as an
1:32:58example how it destroyed my life because
1:33:01without the support of someone saying to
1:33:02you you know you're a little boy it's
1:33:05not your fault but I didn't have that
1:33:07George I didn't have someone to just
1:33:08tell me once it's not your fault this is
1:33:11something that adults do because they
1:33:13have a thing in them that makes them do
1:33:15it see because I thought it was the
1:33:17thing in me that made me the reason I
1:33:19was attacked so if I could ever be an
1:33:22example to anybody that's ever through
1:33:24this and you you were attacked by
1:33:26another you were attacked by another boy
1:33:28or a young man how old was this young
1:33:30man yeah he was about 20 I guess and you
1:33:33were how old and um I was
1:33:35seven and you were anally
1:33:38sodomized yeah he he uh he freaked out
1:33:42when I came to and hit me in the head
1:33:44with a large Field Stone and that was
1:33:46the last I remember and then I woke up
1:33:48and I went home and I had to go to the
1:33:50wisey hospital where I was treated for a
1:33:53major contusion across the front of my
1:33:56forehead that was about seven inches
1:33:57long and they uh I became my optic and
1:34:01it's strange I went from being a
1:34:03right-handed person to a left-handed
1:34:05person and everything overnight changed
1:34:08where I couldn't throw a ball
1:34:09right-handed anymore I had to throw it
1:34:11left-handed and I couldn't you know go
1:34:14in processed language anymore everything
1:34:16became garbled and I I developed a
1:34:19really serious case of Dyslexia so I
1:34:21became disruptive in class and I didn't
1:34:24like wearing glasses cu the kids teased
1:34:26me and it just ruined every self-esteem
1:34:29that I could have ever had and you
1:34:31didn't tell your parents because you
1:34:33were
1:34:34threatened yeah because he told me if I
1:34:36did tell that they let him out and
1:34:39before the trial he killed me I didn't
1:34:41even understand all that but I
1:34:42understood that he would come back and
1:34:44then made it he made it uh very
1:34:46believable to himself convinced me that
1:34:48he would come back and get me so I did
1:34:51the thing that I thought I could do and
1:34:53protect my family from being murdered by
1:34:55this man who promised to kill them and
1:34:57my dog and it it shattered me in a lot
1:34:59of ways but what do you do how do you go
1:35:02back and undo that and then after this
1:35:06abuse you spent the uh the the you of
1:35:09course had a ended up with a a life of
1:35:12drug abuse and petty theft you ended up
1:35:15being framed for this murder and you
1:35:17were abused by guards tell our listeners
1:35:20what these guards are like uh uh what
1:35:24not all of them just a few there's a few
1:35:27bastards in the p in the in the bunch
1:35:29always and it goes across the board in
1:35:31every profession because it shames the
1:35:33one many wonderful prison officers that
1:35:37I hold myself uh endebted to who treated
1:35:41me with kindness and fed me and cared
1:35:43for me now there's always going to be
1:35:46people who in their own weak life see a
1:35:50opportunity to exact Vengeance like I've
1:35:53had some really terrible things done to
1:35:54me by people who believe that they were
1:35:57exercising some demon in me by harming
1:35:59me now I didn't understand how a man
1:36:03could do those things to me and then go
1:36:05home and play with his children and
1:36:07claim himself to be a Christian when he
1:36:09had beaten someone so bad that they had
1:36:11urinated on himself and laughed about it
1:36:13like I didn't get that that was um I
1:36:16think the problem is this George we
1:36:19Empower young people straight from the
1:36:21military with no psychological training
1:36:24to be in charge of our most horrible
1:36:27people and from this we are expecting
1:36:30them not to develop
1:36:32alcoholism uh spousal abuse issues or
1:36:35none of these psychological things that
1:36:37any untrained person is going to
1:36:39experience you had a one guard that you
1:36:43observed to throw some scalding coffee
1:36:45into an inmate's face who later
1:36:48apparently was guard at Abu gra and was
1:36:51investigated there for prisoner abuse
1:36:54and and of course everyone knows about
1:36:56Abu gra and the Prisoner abuse that was
1:37:00going on there tell about this
1:37:01particular guard did you ever testify
1:37:03against him in the Military Tribunal
1:37:05against him I was asked to uh to testify
1:37:08against him by the United States go
1:37:10government oddly enough I mean here you
1:37:13are being exonerated from death row and
1:37:15set free and then the government turns
1:37:17around and says oh by the way can you
1:37:19please come and testify against man who
1:37:21tortured you like he just got done
1:37:23torturing Iraqi prisoners in 2005 and I
1:37:27was Wild by the fact that they had the
1:37:29nerve to think that that was something
1:37:32that I was actually going to do for them
1:37:34yeah um actually yeah all I was going to
1:37:36do is use it as a platform and go there
1:37:38and shame them yeah because he knew that
1:37:41you were a witness against him while you
1:37:42were there in the Pennsylvania prison uh
1:37:45and and came would me to bed for the
1:37:47prosecutor is this and this is what I
1:37:49was told they did not want to show that
1:37:53they' train people to torture others
1:37:55like this in this fashion the way that
1:37:56Charles claimed he was trained Charles
1:37:59claimed that he did nothing more than
1:38:01what he was trained to do in
1:38:03Pennsylvania as a prison guard
1:38:05specialist on his application so they
1:38:08made it you know they made it clear they
1:38:10didn't want me to go in there and and
1:38:12affirm for everyone this is what we
1:38:13train human beings to do we train them
1:38:16to Gladiator the prisoners against each
1:38:19other for our Amusement we train them
1:38:21not to feel anything while beating
1:38:23senseless out of people you describe an
1:38:26incident in the prison where you uh you
1:38:29see these robotic guards dressed in
1:38:33helmets and armored gear dragging
1:38:36prisoners all night long during a riot
1:38:40uh which you describe it it's almost
1:38:42like an outof body experience for you
1:38:44while you were observing that uh the
1:38:46only way you can deal with that much
1:38:48grief isn't it you have to stop and once
1:38:51again it's just a fascinating read how
1:38:53you describe these incidents and it was
1:38:55years later you didn't write this down
1:38:57at the time did you no I wrote the
1:38:59entire book in five weeks in 2007 in
1:39:02England while sitting in a um house
1:39:05there and you don't didn't have a ghost
1:39:07riter and you didn't uh you didn't have
1:39:09somebody assisting you with it with it
1:39:11you wrote this book uh how many drafts
1:39:13did you go through to write this book no
1:39:16I I I did the same thing with the second
1:39:18book I've wrote the second book in only
1:39:20three weeks by sitting down and writing
1:39:22it that's it like I say the greatest
1:39:24honor of my life to this day to prove my
1:39:26education is valuable is the letter I
1:39:29got from the editor assigned to me by
1:39:31Harper Collins who simply said that to
1:39:33date mine was the least amount of work
1:39:35he had to do and I take that as a great
1:39:37honor because I truly was shattered as a
1:39:40young person going to prison and it was
1:39:41only through education that I made this
1:39:43effort so we can say a lot of things
1:39:46about all the other events but the one
1:39:48thing I'm grateful for is the fact that
1:39:50I stuck my nose in a book and I became
1:39:52eloquent
1:39:53did you uh and you got your GED while
1:39:56you were there in uh I never got a
1:39:58certificate of anything I wasn't there
1:40:00to do it for that you understand the
1:40:02whole reason I educated myself for was
1:40:04for one moment when they were executing
1:40:07me I only did it for one thing I wanted
1:40:11to prove to all of them on the day that
1:40:13I left that I could speak eloquently
1:40:16that I didn't have to be teased and she
1:40:18they used to torment me George and go d
1:40:20d d when I would get angry I couldn't
1:40:22speak and I flub everything and I
1:40:24couldn't have the eloquence to say words
1:40:26that needed to be said and I would be so
1:40:29tortured by that that that was my only
1:40:31goal I just wanted on the day that I
1:40:34died to have the ability to have enough
1:40:36to speak for myself did you ever did you
1:40:40ever have an execution date set I was
1:40:43within 60 days of the warrant being
1:40:45signed when I asked to be executed in
1:40:472002 so they would have probably
1:40:49executed me in 2003 there's only been
1:40:51four other people in Pennsylvania
1:40:53executed and all all of them have been
1:40:55uh
1:40:56volunteers so you volunteered to be
1:40:59executed you'd finally had enough I had
1:41:02enough sir enough of this drama and
1:41:06suffering I had educated myself enough
1:41:09to feel that I had found out enough
1:41:11about the world and enough about myself
1:41:14to see that I was just a small Cog and a
1:41:16bigger thing and that I should let go
1:41:18because all I was doing was causing
1:41:20myself unnecessary suffering well when I
1:41:22read the title of your book and I think
1:41:24a lot of people there might say well uh
1:41:26the book reads seven days to live so my
1:41:29first thought was well he was 7even days
1:41:31away from being executed uh when the
1:41:35final papers came through to say that he
1:41:37was uh you know innocent DNA evidence
1:41:39had cleared you uh and and so the Seven
1:41:42Days to Live what's the reason the
1:41:45reference that my spiritual advisor
1:41:47Kathleen Grace came and met me when I
1:41:49was at my worst and Sheed to me when
1:41:53well she said to me when I asked to be
1:41:55executed what happened why did I stop
1:41:58living as if I only had seven days to
1:42:00live what happened to the gregarious
1:42:03caring sweet person she met who despite
1:42:06losing his wife having the evidence of
1:42:08the DNA lost and having seemingly no
1:42:11hope could still come out here and smile
1:42:13with me and talk to me in a gentle
1:42:15fashion and now what happened to that
1:42:18person why do you no longer have those
1:42:20seven days to live and I'll never forget
1:42:22it it was a question I could never ask
1:42:24so I guess my question to all the world
1:42:26is I hope you have an answer for why you
1:42:29don't live each day is if you only have
1:42:31seven days to
1:42:33live so you're trying to tell us the
1:42:36rest of us that we should live one week
1:42:38at a time got seven days to live George
1:42:40you could have you could have died today
1:42:42when your car broke down when you
1:42:43stepped out of the vehicle and someone
1:42:45hit you that's right could have died
1:42:47from the heat someone in transit coming
1:42:49to help you could have died today but
1:42:51they didn't agressively well I the truth
1:42:54is think about any of that yeah but
1:42:57right that's the reality and you have to
1:42:59I'm going live my life like I know it's
1:43:00it's going to
1:43:01end and it sounds like you're living for
1:43:04tomorrow right now with all these
1:43:05projects you've got going on yeah I'm
1:43:08very grateful that I've hired a
1:43:09professional script writer because I am
1:43:11not a uh person that thinks himself to
1:43:14be that clever to be able to do a
1:43:16professional movie so I hired a
1:43:18professional script writer to develop a
1:43:20script from the first book and it's
1:43:22wonderful I have a very good opportunity
1:43:25in Los Angeles with the support of many
1:43:27people in the acting Community to do
1:43:29something with this material and like
1:43:31you said it is a good read and I'm very
1:43:33grateful for that because I thrown my
1:43:35hat out there as a great writer not as a
1:43:37former prisoner but is an author someone
1:43:40who has made the effort to tell a tale
1:43:43regardless of where I came
1:43:45from well it's a fascinating read uh now
1:43:49going forward you got any more speaking
1:43:51engagements uh uh in the next several
1:43:53weeks and months tell us what you're
1:43:54about to do I'm about to have my uh
1:43:58national uh debut on CNN and other
1:44:01programs I have bookings for Drake
1:44:04University and San Diego State
1:44:06University and I'm going to start
1:44:08speaking this fall at other major
1:44:10universities and that's what I'm
1:44:12passionate about I don't care about
1:44:14being recognized what I want to do is go
1:44:16what I've been doing for uh several
1:44:19years and get someone in that audience
1:44:21who went through what I went through at
1:44:22a young age to make the change and fix
1:44:25their lives and get a good education do
1:44:27you have a website uh that our our
1:44:30listeners can uh uh contact you on uh
1:44:33how and what's the best way of obtaining
1:44:35your book we might as well do a little
1:44:36more of that right now before we're
1:44:38about to wrap up jarish Nick jar. net
1:44:42and you can find me on Facebook and you
1:44:44can find me on my website you can order
1:44:46books I'll send signed autograph copies
1:44:48hard back uh to you uh if you reach out
1:44:51to me um you can can find it on Kindle
1:44:54as well in electronic form and you can
1:44:56order paperbacks at uh off of create
1:44:59space but I'm looking forward to
1:45:01actually sending out sign copies because
1:45:03that means a connection to me so what I
1:45:05do is I buy a bunch of copies and I sit
1:45:07somewhere by the ocean or something and
1:45:09I signed them well before I meet you so
1:45:11that the words I wrote to you show the
1:45:13respect that I had even before you open
1:45:15that first
1:45:17page well I I I think that that's a
1:45:20really interesting way of connecting
1:45:22with everyone because I like the way you
1:45:24know at the very beginning of your book
1:45:25and at the very end of your book it's
1:45:27it's as if you are uh reaching your own
1:45:29personal catharsis when you write this
1:45:31book uh and it's it's it's different
1:45:34than any other book that I've ever read
1:45:36but then I don't think I've ever read a
1:45:37book by anyone that's gone to the
1:45:38experience that you've gone through it's
1:45:40a very to say it's Unique is there
1:45:43anyone else that's ever served 21 years
1:45:45on death row and been
1:45:47exonerated in other words in other words
1:45:49yeah are you the longest serving death
1:45:52row in certainly in pen yeah I'm one of
1:45:54very few people who's ever survived 23
1:45:57years in solitary confinement 8,057 days
1:46:01proven innocent by DNA and not killed
1:46:04myself right um a lot of the prisoners
1:46:07who served more than 20 uh years 80% of
1:46:10them at in the first five years try to
1:46:12kill themselves did you ever try to did
1:46:14you ever try to kill yourself I did I
1:46:16actually had an inocent um early on
1:46:19because of survivor's guilt where I was
1:46:21going to drive my motorcycle into a
1:46:23truck just because of the pain of of of
1:46:26this thing that was just eating at me
1:46:28and oh this was after you were released
1:46:30you mean yeah after my release but but
1:46:34while you were in prison did you ever
1:46:35try to commit suicide yeah early on uh
1:46:38in my first week of being charged as a
1:46:41rapist murderer when all the inmates
1:46:42were torturing me and stuff and the
1:46:44guards were letting it go I hung myself
1:46:47but the officer cut me down and told me
1:46:48he was going to keep me around for the
1:46:49full ride he
1:46:51said wow it's just an incredible story
1:46:54and then what made you not run your
1:46:55motorcycle into a
1:46:58truck what made you change your mind on
1:47:01that side I don't know I guess I'm a
1:47:03coward I don't know it's a strange
1:47:05feeling but I pulled over and then there
1:47:08was an old man uh on the roadside and he
1:47:11had a dog with him and I was really
1:47:12bitter because I just got out of prison
1:47:15and I was still sick with hepatitis and
1:47:16I was told that I couldn't get on a
1:47:18donor's list and I live and all this and
1:47:20so I didn't have a lot of faith in it
1:47:23you know what I mean and then I didn't
1:47:25know that I in just 6 months I would be
1:47:27completely healed all I did was eat my
1:47:29mom's suit and and start to exercise and
1:47:32take care of myself and all of a sudden
1:47:34I didn't need drugs and I didn't need
1:47:36treatment and I didn't need a new liver
1:47:39well and so you uh you've managed to
1:47:41survive this
1:47:43hepatitis and you still do you still
1:47:45have the hepatitis I have nothing I have
1:47:47zero my wife and I just went through
1:47:49Medical Treatments when we moved from
1:47:50the United Kingdom to Los Angeles and I
1:47:53have zero I know there's even an article
1:47:56by the Pennsylvania School of Medicine
1:47:58about how I'm one of the first or the
1:48:00very few who has ever gone from a
1:48:02terminal diagnosis of hepatitis C to
1:48:05having none and I mean zero that's
1:48:07crazy and you went I have two collapsed
1:48:10disc in my my neck and yet I'm not in
1:48:12any pain and T1 and the C6 we've trapped
1:48:16and in pinged nerve roots and if anybody
1:48:18has an a medical understanding they know
1:48:20I just described Agony on this Earth and
1:48:22yet I walk around every day with no pain
1:48:25and I don't understand any of the things
1:48:26that have happened to me all I know is
1:48:29that I've tapped into positivity of my
1:48:31life and it's really working for me and
1:48:33you know I and I know we only have a
1:48:35minute or two left I don't uh I you
1:48:37never went back to drug and alcohol
1:48:39abuse you've remained sober ever since
1:48:41no I don't drink and I don't take any
1:48:42over the-counter medications either
1:48:44because I can't because of liver damage
1:48:46all my life I'll have kidney and liver
1:48:48damage and it it'll be in a degraded
1:48:50form but it's stable and that's the good
1:48:53thing so as long as I don't take uh
1:48:55ibuprofens and stuff like that or drink
1:48:57alcohol I'm fine and that's the good
1:49:00thing is I stayed away from it because
1:49:02William Nez who got off at death row
1:49:05Pennsylvania didn't and I watched him
1:49:07drink himself to death so it was a real
1:49:09lesson to me not to do anything like
1:49:11that you know a lot of prisoners uh get
1:49:13religion when they're in jail and they
1:49:16uh they they they talk a lot about the
1:49:18Bible and and and all of this sort of
1:49:21thing and God and and this and that that
1:49:22and I'm not meaning to disparage God or
1:49:24promote God but it is interesting or
1:49:27that and actually it's just something
1:49:29that I've just basically just really
1:49:31noticed but as I go through your book I
1:49:33don't see any uh scripture I don't see
1:49:36that the Bible or any of this sort of
1:49:38religious Epiphany occurred I think
1:49:40that's fair to anyone yeah I think that
1:49:42yeah I I I get it and I think that's one
1:49:44of the things I I wanted to you're very
1:49:47you're obviously a very deeply spiritual
1:49:49person there's no way you could have
1:49:50survived this ordeal and still have the
1:49:53have the positive view that you've got
1:49:55towards the world and towards all the
1:49:56people that have wronged you uh and this
1:49:59this wonderful uh uh you know
1:50:01recognition of even though you didn't
1:50:03commit the crime that you were convicted
1:50:05of you realized that you'd committed
1:50:07other crimes for which you needed to be
1:50:08punished and you have this remarkable um
1:50:12you know acceptance of your punishment
1:50:14not for the crime but for your other
1:50:16acts and and you but you don't uh you
1:50:19don't lay it off on on God or or Jesus
1:50:22or anything else you you find some sort
1:50:24of it seems to me some secular strength
1:50:27or some personal humanistic strength
1:50:30where where where do you get beautiful
1:50:32way of describing it but I I think what
1:50:34I I've done is I've stolen all the good
1:50:37tenants of all the major religions that
1:50:39mean something decent I've ignored all
1:50:43the madness while just putting
1:50:45perspective on who I truly am I'm no one
1:50:47George I'm just the guy that got
1:50:49arrested for being an idiot who's
1:50:51hopefully despite all the mean things
1:50:53done to him has shown that I could be
1:50:56someone decent enough to be your
1:50:58neighbor or to sit next to you in a
1:51:00restaurant and be a normal person that's
1:51:01my goal to someday have no one ever know
1:51:05who they are and know nothing about me
1:51:08and only enjoy the encounter of who I am
1:51:11isn't that our goal isn't that who we
1:51:13want to be unless you have a really bad
1:51:15ego I don't I don't see where I I I am
1:51:18anyone special but yeah God's touched my
1:51:21life in so many ways I can't be ignorant
1:51:22of that fact well it's been a great
1:51:25pleasure having you on the show today uh
1:51:28and I hope that for uh your sake that
1:51:30you do well with this book and uh I'd
1:51:33like to thank uh Nick Yus for being on
1:51:35the show today uh this book is seven
1:51:38days to live uh he spent 21 years on
1:51:41death row in
1:51:43Pennsylvania uh and was exonerated uh by
1:51:46DNA evidence after fighting for 15 years
1:51:49uh to to clear his uh his name Frank for
1:51:53a murder that he did not commit uh for a
1:51:56young woman who apparently the Killer is
1:51:58still at large of Linda May Craig uh and
1:52:01U unfortunately uh still still out there
1:52:04right um or maybe caught for something
1:52:07else you never never know but it's
1:52:10fascinating Nick thank you so much for
1:52:11being with us today now this was a great
1:52:14honor I again I want to thank you for
1:52:16actually reading the book and it as
1:52:18something a lot of hosts will never do
1:52:19for me in the future and I don't ever
1:52:21want to take that is anything other than
1:52:24a huge tribute to what I've made an
1:52:26effort for if anybody that listens to
1:52:28this understands what I've gone through
1:52:30or they've gone through similar things
1:52:33you can always reach out to me on
1:52:34Facebook or on my personal website Nick
1:52:36j Aris and I really am grateful to you
1:52:38and your staff today thank you well good
1:52:40luck on CNN and your other speaking tour
1:52:42this year uh and uh listen uh I hope you
1:52:45and your wife are successful in
1:52:47conceiving a child I think that's going
1:52:49to be important and I think you'll be a
1:52:50great dad to your next child and I'm
1:52:53sure lots of people would be look
1:52:54forward to having you as their neighbor
1:52:56so uh we'll uh we'll we'll hopefully
1:52:59stay in touch and and I'll look forward
1:53:00to seeing you seeing you around and
1:53:02taking a look at your next documentary
1:53:04and and your next book so uh thank you
1:53:06sir okay great well listen this is uh
1:53:09justice for all 1650 a.m. uh we've spent
1:53:12the last two hours with Nick yis it's
1:53:14been a pleasure being with you today uh
1:53:16we'd like you to tune in uh next
1:53:18Saturday uh between 2: and 4: we'll have
1:53:20another great guest uh to discuss uh um
1:53:24some great topic and I'm not sure who we
1:53:26have next week I'm sure D will tell us
1:53:28in a minute I'd like to thank my
1:53:30engineer D Thomas who's been helping me
1:53:32here with today as well as uh Greg Hall
1:53:35our producer and uh you have a great
1:53:37afternoon we look forward to seeing you
1:53:39next week this is George Yates signing
1:53:41off for justice for all

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