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Journey to Justice: An Interview with Jeffrey Deskovic — Transcript

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0:00true crime brewery contains disturbing
0:02content related to real-life crimes
0:05medical information is opinion based on
0:07facts of a crime
0:08and should not be interpreted as medical
0:10advice or treatment
0:12listener discretion is advised
0:22[Music]
0:28welcome to true crime brewery i'm jill
0:30and i'm dick
0:32in 2006 jeffrey deskovic's indictment
0:36charging him with the rape and murder of
0:38a high school classmate was dismissed on
0:40the grounds of actual innocence
0:42post-conviction dna testing proved his
0:45innocence
0:46it also identified the real killer when
0:49a classmate of 16 year old jeffrey was
0:51found raped and murdered in a local park
0:53he was understandably upset the police
0:56though
0:56said that his behavior seemed odd they
0:59were suspicious of him because he was
1:01late for school
1:02the day after the murder and he seemed
1:04overly distraught
1:06about the death of a girl who wasn't
1:08even really a friend of his
1:10jeffrey was questioned at length and
1:11eventually manipulated
1:13into giving a false confession since his
1:16release from prison
1:17jeffrey has earned his law degree and
1:19established the jeffrey deskovic
1:22foundation for justice devoting his life
1:25to fighting wrongful convictions
1:27and helping those exonerated to reclaim
1:30their lives
1:31join us at the quiet end for the story
1:33of jeffrey deskovic
1:35dick was able to be in touch with mr
1:37deskovic for an interview recently and
1:40we hope you'll find what he had to say
1:42as fascinating as we did
1:44so we're going to do a beer review of
1:46course when i had done the interview
1:49with mr deskovic
1:50i asked him if he had a favorite beer he
1:52said uh
1:53not really do you review ciders and i
1:56said
1:57i said no no i said no exactly
2:01so i told him i'd get him a nice beer i
2:03did i think
2:04this is bon bon 2x
2:07double ipa that's quite a mouthful it is
2:11really
2:12it's from single kite beer smiths in
2:15queens new york yeah and he said he's
2:17been there quite a bit he actually goes
2:19to queens often so it works
2:20yes so that's kind of why i did it
2:24it's a new england ipa so we're gonna
2:26expect more of a
2:27fruity rather than a hoppy beer and this
2:30is a pretty nice one it's a hazy gold
2:32color
2:33poured it into our true crime brewery
2:35snifter there was a pretty nice sized
2:37white head
2:38with a fair amount of lacing on the
2:41glass
2:42the aroma was like i thought mostly
2:44citrus
2:45some tropical fruit taste was even
2:47better than the aroma
2:49grapefruit some lemon some mango late in
2:52the swallow and the taste a little bit
2:54of pine
2:55this is a nicely balanced double ipa
2:59fruity enjoy it we're gonna open it up
3:02all right i am looking forward to it
3:04hopefully not too much pine
3:06so let's open it no it's just a touch of
3:08it so don't worry
3:10you're gonna be impressed with the fruit
3:26all right dickie come on down to the
3:28quiet end and let's talk just a little
3:29bit and then we'll play your interview
3:31okay so why don't you give me just like
3:33the basic background of what happened
3:36and then we'll listen to the interview
3:39set it up for us
3:40well we got to go back a few years in
3:43november of 1989
3:46jeffrey deskovic's peak school new york
3:48high school classmate
3:50angela correa who was 15 was raped
3:53beaten and strangled to death
3:56detectives decided that jeffrey had been
3:58unusually upset at
3:59angela's memorials and they
4:02misinterpreted his desire to help solve
4:04the crime as a sign of his guilt
4:06after speaking with him several times
4:09over the next
4:09couple three weeks and they were
4:12actually feeding him information about
4:14the case
4:15they brought him in for a polygraph so
4:17this kid now he's 17 he'd never been in
4:20trouble with the law before
4:22he was interrogated for over seven hours
4:24without a lawyer
4:26or a parent present detectives were
4:28quite aggressive with them they lied to
4:30him about failing a polygraph
4:33yeah it's just so much to even imagine
4:35being alone at that age
4:37and going through that i mean i think at
4:40that age with
4:42professional detectives who know what
4:43they're doing pretty much anyone could
4:46be
4:47led into a false confession they could
4:49even make you believe you did it for a
4:51while right
4:52yeah they can i'm just i thought there
4:55were laws maybe it's state by state but
4:57i thought you couldn't question a minor
4:59without a parent present
5:01i don't think that's true i think in
5:03europe that's a law we talked about that
5:05with one case
5:06that in the u.s i don't believe it's a
5:08law it could be wrong it might be state
5:10by state but as far as i know
5:13there's no law that says a 17 year old
5:15needs to have a lawyer or a parent
5:17present
5:18i mean it seems like the ethical thing
5:19to do right
5:21but apparently i guess it couldn't have
5:23been a law because he was interviewed
5:26and interrogated by himself exactly and
5:29as we know the police are allowed to lie
5:32to you so they can say anything to you
5:33really
5:34to lead you down the wrong path and i
5:37think as he told you during the
5:38interview
5:39they were kind of telling him he could
5:41go home if he just told them what they
5:43wanted
5:43they basically said did you tell us what
5:46we want to hear
5:47we'll let you go home so he did he
5:50confessed
5:51and they arrested him he didn't get to
5:52go home in fact after he confessed
5:55the very next day he recanted his
5:57confession he said he was coerced into
5:59confessing
6:00but that was too late for him at least
6:02in the eyes of the police
6:04sure yeah they've got it and nothing was
6:08recorded either
6:10so it's the early 90s we already had the
6:12capability to record video and audio in
6:15the 90s
6:16so there's no excuse for not recording
6:18it other than they didn't want
6:20some things to come out it's the way i
6:22see it
6:23understandably here he is being charged
6:26with murder
6:27he's feeling i'm sure like the police
6:29lied to him they told him if he just
6:31told him what they wanted they'd let him
6:33go and they didn't he attempted suicide
6:35twice before his trial began that's
6:38incredibly sad
6:39it is knowing you had nothing to do with
6:42it then you're gonna be on trial for
6:43murder
6:44well yeah and it almost seems like he
6:46was being punished for being sensitive
6:48and being manipulated right yeah so in
6:52january of 1991 in the trial
6:54he ended up being convicted of
6:56first-degree rape and second-degree
6:58murder
6:59now this was despite the fact that the
7:02dna results
7:03showed that it was not his semen and the
7:07rape kit that was gathered from angela's
7:09body
7:10so i'm just kind of flabbergasted about
7:13that i mean i thought
7:14dna trumped everything right well
7:18i think that that would be something
7:19that should get in the way of convicting
7:21him yes
7:22well it didn't and he'll discuss that in
7:24the interview
7:26but it's not his dna yes he confessed
7:28but then he recanted the confession
7:31i don't see how they could even go to
7:33trial but
7:34well and all they really had was the
7:36confession
7:37he actually had an alibi as well so he
7:40did
7:41now from the start deskovic maintained
7:43his innocence
7:44the other fact of it is that he was
7:47innocent
7:48and so he's serving time for this crime
7:50he didn't commit
7:52the real killer was still roaming around
7:56and here's the hard part he killed a
7:58second person
7:59as we'll find out tragic so jeffrey
8:03continued to maintain his innocence for
8:05years
8:05and he eventually exhausted all his
8:07appeals
8:09he had appealed originally to the
8:11westchester
8:12county district attorney who was janine
8:15pirro
8:16at the time and he kept asking her to do
8:18post-conviction dna testing
8:20and she repeatedly declined now despite
8:24all these setbacks
8:25he didn't just languish in prison he
8:27continued to pursue his education
8:30he earned his ged in prison he got an
8:33associate's degree
8:34in prison and he had completed one year
8:37of college
8:38in prison well and i think from what he
8:41said he would have done more
8:42except the program was cut the funding
8:45was cut
8:46well eventually the innocence project
8:48became interested in his case and they
8:50provided him with
8:51a competent defense attorney in 2006 the
8:55newly elected district attorney
8:57janet d fiore authorized the dna testing
9:01and the testing again excluded jeffrey
9:03deskovic
9:04but it matched the dna of a man who was
9:07already in prison for another murder
9:09and this man stephen cunningham
9:11confessed to the murder of angela
9:13korea okay so as you had said earlier
9:18his conviction was overturned
9:20and was freed from prison in 2006.
9:24he graduated from college he attended
9:27law school
9:28and he received his jd in 2019.
9:32so it took some time there were some
9:33dark times there
9:35i mean it's easy to sum it up in a
9:36sentence or two but he went through an
9:38awful lot
9:39yeah he said first five years out of
9:42prison were very very difficult
9:44i imagine but he persevered and now he
9:47works as an advocate for reform of the
9:49criminal
9:50justice system and he gives speeches he
9:52publishes articles
9:53and of course he heads the jeffrey
9:55deskovic foundation for justice
9:57which has so far won the release of
9:59seven people wrongfully convicted of
10:01serious crimes
10:03so that's impressive to me me too and
10:06according to an opinion piece in the
10:08spectrum written by michelle malkin
10:10it's his willingness to reach out to law
10:12enforcement and enlighten them
10:14instead of just demonizing them that has
10:17made him an invaluable leader in
10:18criminal justice reform
10:21so lieutenant michael devine of the
10:23bergen county law and public safety
10:25institute was really impressed
10:27so impressed in fact with deskovic's
10:30presentations to correction recruits
10:32that he was allowed to become a
10:33certified instructor for the new jersey
10:36police training commission
10:37and then dr kevin barrett who's a
10:4032-year veteran of the englewood new
10:42jersey police department
10:44and chairman of the criminal justice
10:46department at rocklin community college
10:49said that his students were mesmerized
10:51by mr deskovic's
10:53presentation and they will carry the
10:55lessons they learned from him for the
10:56next 25 years of their careers
10:59that's pretty high praise indeed isn't
11:01it very high praise
11:03so i was able to speak with mr deskovic
11:06in a
11:07zoom meeting the interview is
11:10quite enlightening he's a good speaker
11:12can tell stories
11:13not that he was making up stories but
11:16he's a talker
11:17he's a talker and he presents himself
11:19nicely i think he'd be
11:21fun to listen to giving a lecture yeah
11:24absolutely you know not just what he's
11:27been through but
11:28also the way that he's dealt with it is
11:29impressive certainly is
11:32so let's go ahead and listen to your
11:34interview then we'll follow up after
11:36see on the other side i'm interviewing
11:39jeffrey deskovic
11:40who has a harrowing tale to tell us
11:43about
11:44thank you for joining us today jeffrey
11:46oh thank you for having me
11:48before we get into the grisly details of
11:51what happened to you
11:52uh let's hear a little bit about your
11:53early life
11:55yeah i was um i um well i mean when i
11:57grew up in an apartment complex
11:59in peekskill in west chester county new
12:01york which was the suburb
12:02so i would say that my my early life was
12:05um it was pretty fun actually i was one
12:07of the two main kids in the apartment
12:08complex and pretty much whatever i would
12:10suggest would be what we would do i mean
12:12we
12:13from playing basketball to swimming to
12:15playing stickball and
12:16riding bikes and playing monopoly and
12:18video games and
12:20all of that um so that was like that
12:22that was my
12:23life like outside of school whereas in
12:26school
12:27i would i didn't quite fit in so i was
12:28like quiet to myself and i didn't
12:30you know i was kind of on the fringes of
12:32the society and all the kids there were
12:34older than i was since i had skipped a
12:36grade in grade school
12:37you had wow so you were kind of a shy
12:40and uh shall we say gawky kid i would
12:43say that yes
12:44i would that's a great description okay
12:46and how did you know
12:47angela korea she was a classmate in two
12:50of my classes as a freshman
12:52one as a sophomore i knew her name she
12:54knew mine that was
12:55pretty much the extent of it so you
12:57weren't like good friends or anything
12:59no no i wouldn't even say that we were
13:02on a high buy basis
13:04so you didn't know her very well just
13:06someone you acknowledged that was
13:08in the same classes acquaintances
13:10classmates
13:11whatever yes i agree with all those yes
13:14okay and tell me about the crime what
13:17happened to her
13:18so she was found in hillcrest park
13:22she was found um naked from the waist
13:24down so
13:25um per the police so she was murdered
13:28and she was um raped she actually had
13:30been assigned
13:30to take some photographs of greenery
13:34by her photography class teacher who had
13:36assigned
13:37like implemented like a buddy system
13:39where male students were matched with
13:41the female students but
13:42the male student who was supposed to
13:44accompany her skipped out on the
13:46assignment
13:47and for some reason she decided to go to
13:49the park by herself i mean as i
13:51understand it this was the only time she
13:53really went anywhere
13:54unless she was accompanied by her older
13:56sister um or her parents
13:58keeping in mind her background i mean
14:00she was an immigrant from colombia
14:02she had been in the country just for a
14:04year and a half
14:06so she was pretty new she was pretty new
14:08and is this part is it a
14:10considered a safe place up until that
14:12point it was considered to be a safe
14:14place yes
14:15and so she was found nude from the waist
14:17down
14:18yes how had she been killed uh she had
14:21been uh
14:21well you know the medical examiner
14:23wasn't 100 clear i mean he had said that
14:25um she had been asphyxiated but he also
14:28had mentioned that
14:29she suffered a severe wound on the being
14:31hit from something on the back of her
14:33head
14:33so it's not clear to me which of the two
14:35was the way she died
14:38and how did you start to become a
14:39suspect in all this
14:41because the uh well a few a few few a
14:44few ways so the police interviewed a lot
14:46of students from the high school and
14:48some of them told the police that they
14:49might want to talk to me because i
14:51didn't fit in
14:52so i guess the theory is that the shy
14:55glocky
14:55kids commit gas ghastly crimes i guess
14:58that was the theory
14:59uh so that was one thing and then the
15:01police made a
15:02big to-do i wasn't it was really my
15:04first brush with death
15:06and you know so i was emotional and they
15:08felt like
15:09my emotional reaction was uh some sort
15:12of expression of my of
15:13internal remorse that i felt for what i
15:15had done and then a third thing which
15:18doesn't really make a lot of sense
15:19because
15:20this really had shook up peak skill i
15:22mean there hadn't been a murder there in
15:23approximately 20 years and so
15:25it shook the whole city up to the point
15:28that free mental health counseling was
15:29offered to anybody who wanted it
15:31and lastly the police got a
15:34psychological profile from the nypd
15:36which purported to have the
15:38psychological characteristics
15:40of the actual perpetrator and i had the
15:42misfortune of matching those
15:43characteristics
15:45huh so is pseudoscience that captured
15:48you
15:48yes that was part of it sure that's what
15:50put me on their radar yes
15:52and we know from looking at different
15:54cases that
15:56once they zero in on the suspect that
15:58they sort of develop tunnel vision
16:00exactly right yes and so if you're the
16:03suspect they're going to work hard to
16:05make sure you're implicated that's
16:08correct
16:09so they bring you in to interview they
16:12did
16:12they did yes and you know they showed me
16:14some photographs of her and they you
16:17know they
16:17accused me of the crime i mean they
16:19didn't arrest me for it but they
16:20verbally accused me and you know they
16:22were
16:22kind of roughhousing me um
16:24psychologically and
16:25you know they're trying to get me um to
16:28confess to the crime
16:29and then when you know when i wanted to
16:31leave then they changed up their tune
16:33and
16:33you know jeff is the junior detective
16:35investigator helper theme
16:37was advanced by them and so for the next
16:40six weeks they played this cat and mouse
16:42game with me in which half the time they
16:44spoke to me as if i was a suspect and
16:46then the other half the time
16:48they would pretend like they needed my
16:49help to solve the crime so
16:51before i was a teenager i actually
16:53wanted to be a cop
16:54so this unexpected early opportunity to
16:57do this quasi police work
16:59along with my age which was 16 was how
17:01they were able to pull the wool over my
17:03eyes
17:04you know they would say things like you
17:06know the kids won't talk freely around
17:07us but they will around you stop in from
17:10time to time
17:11uh they'd ask me opinion questions and
17:13congratulate me that my opinions were
17:14correct
17:15you know they made me feel important
17:17they did the good cop bad cop routine
17:19and you know and i began to look to the
17:22officer who was pretending to be my
17:24friend
17:25as a father figure because my father had
17:27never been involved in my life in any
17:29capacity and the whole time you were on
17:32your own
17:33that's correct the same thing for all
17:34the rest of the interviews that happened
17:36over the next six weeks
17:38correct and most of the time you're
17:40thinking that you're helping them that's
17:42right they're
17:42seeking your help yes and then they
17:45would switch up and they'd start you
17:46know
17:47accusing me and asking me questions like
17:49they thought i committed the crime
17:51and that would always confuse me and
17:53then then uh when they would push too
17:55hard on that thing they would
17:56go back to the jeff as the junior
17:59detective investigator theme and so they
18:01kept me
18:01off balance psychologically and you know
18:04mentally and you know i was 16 years old
18:06and they were they were adults they were
18:07overreaching me
18:08so they got the confession from you
18:10eventually yes
18:12eventually they did so just to put a
18:13little bit of color to that they
18:15got me to agree the test by telling me
18:18that some new
18:19information came into their file and
18:20they wanted to share that with me and
18:22that would allow me to
18:23be more helpful to them but first i
18:25would have to take and pass a polygraph
18:28so the next day instead of going to
18:30school i went to the police station
18:32my mother and grandmother did not know
18:34where i was they drove me across
18:36county lines from peakskill in
18:38westchester county to
18:40the town of brewster which is in putnam
18:41county so it's about 40 minutes away by
18:43car
18:44so now i was totally dependent upon them
18:47and uh they gave me a four-page brochure
18:49which explained how the
18:51polygraph worked but i didn't understand
18:53it but then i thought i'm there to help
18:54the police so
18:56you know what does it matter the
18:57polygraph is himself was a putnam county
19:00sheriff's investigator who was
19:02dressed as a civilian he was you know he
19:04never identified himself as a police
19:06officer
19:07he gave me countless cups of coffee he
19:09put me
19:10in a small room and attached the
19:11polygraph machine to me and then he
19:14launched into his third degree tactics
19:16which you know featured him
19:18raising his voice at me invading my
19:19personal space asking me the same
19:21questions over and over again
19:23and he kept that routine up for six and
19:25a half to seven hours
19:27you know keeping in mind that i wasn't
19:28used to talking to adult males since my
19:30father wasn't involved in my life
19:33and i had minimal interaction with my
19:35family the uh
19:36the adult so i wasn't used to talking to
19:38grown men is what the point is
19:40and eventually he told me you know what
19:42do you mean you didn't do it you told me
19:43through the
19:44test results that you did we just want
19:46you to verbally confirm it
19:47and that's when the officer had been
19:49pretending to be my friend he came in
19:50the room and told me that
19:52the other officers were going to harm me
19:53that he couldn't hold them off any
19:55longer that i would have to
19:56you know just help myself then he added
19:59if i did as they wanted and
20:00i just told them what did as they wanted
20:02and i just you know gave them that story
20:04they were looking for that they'd stop
20:06what they're doing that i could go home
20:07that i was not going to be arrested so
20:10being young naive frightened
20:1116 years old not thinking about the long
20:14term i was only concerned my safety in
20:16the moment
20:17i was in fear in my life the fact that i
20:19didn't know where i was and no one else
20:20knew where i was
20:21either loomed very large in my mind and
20:23you know then there was that false
20:25promise so i
20:26made the decision to make up a story
20:28based on the information they
20:30had given me that day and in the six
20:31weeks run up to it
20:33and you know by the time it was all said
20:34and done i was curled up into a fetal
20:36position on the floor i was crying
20:38uncontrollably
20:39obviously i was in fact arrested and
20:41charged with a murder and rape
20:43yeah they got their confession correct
20:46wow so it would seem that any competent
20:49defense attorney
20:50would take care of that yes i i agree
20:53with you so
20:54first off a dna test result came in from
20:57the fbi lab before i went to trial
21:00which showed that seaman found in the
21:01victim didn't match me
21:03but instead of acknowledging they made a
21:05mistake they continued to prosecute
21:07full speed ahead um in order to explain
21:09away the dna
21:10the prosecutor got the medical examiner
21:13to commit fraud
21:14he claimed six months after doing the
21:17autopsy he
21:18claimed that he remembered suddenly that
21:20he forgot to document
21:22medical evidence which he said showed
21:24that the
21:25victim had been sexually active
21:27basically they accused her of
21:29sleeping around and that was their way
21:31of explaining that the semen didn't come
21:32from me
21:33they mentioned he mentioned a specific
21:36other high school classmate that he
21:38claimed that slept with the victim that
21:39he said it was that person's
21:41semen but he never had a dna test
21:43performed to prove that he never called
21:45him even as a witness
21:47that's where my lawyer's failings as we
21:49started off that you asked me
21:51came in so my lawyer never uh
21:54interviewed or called as a witness my
21:55alibi
21:56i was actually playing wiffle ball when
21:58the crime happened
21:59he never cross examined the medical
22:01examiner to expose his fraud
22:03he never explained to the jury the
22:05significance of the dna not matching me
22:07and
22:07used that to argue that that proved that
22:09this confession
22:10obtained under highly questionable
22:12circumstances um was coerced and false
22:15he rarely met with me he should have
22:17never represented me because of a
22:19conflict of interest so this other youth
22:21that the prosecutor was falsely claiming
22:22had slept with the victim
22:24he was represented by another member of
22:26westchester county uh
22:27legal aid uh so that conflict of
22:29interest prevented the defense from
22:31calling him as a witness to explode that
22:33myth it prevented the defense from
22:34asking him
22:35for a dna sam when i hadn't decided if i
22:38was going to have a bench trial
22:40he's decided by a judge or a jury trial
22:43my lawyer came to me
22:44one day and said that the judge told him
22:46off the record to pick a jury
22:48because he didn't want to be responsible
22:50for finding me not guilty my lawyer was
22:52supposed to put that on the record and
22:53ask him to recuse himself because it
22:55wasn't proper for him to
22:57narrow my options like that you know and
22:59it suggests that he was feeling public
23:01pressure because every time i went to
23:02the
23:03uh court in a court appearance it was
23:05like a major media moment from virtually
23:07all of the coverage
23:08guilt presumptive oriented and the last
23:11thing i'll mention
23:12is that you know the interrogation was
23:14not videotaped or audio taped and there
23:16was no signed confession
23:18it was just the officer's word for it
23:20and they left the threatened false
23:22promise out of their testimony
23:23so i wanted to testify as to those facts
23:26at the pre-trial hearing but he wouldn't
23:28let me
23:28you know had i done so and the judge
23:30believed me then the statements would
23:32have been ruled as involuntary and
23:33therefore not admissible
23:35but he wouldn't allow me to he said he
23:36hadn't decided if i was going to testify
23:38at the trial or not
23:39and he didn't want to have me on the
23:41record prior to that testimony if that
23:43was to happen
23:44but then when i got to the trial he
23:46wouldn't allow me to testify there
23:48either
23:48he told me it wasn't up to him to prove
23:50i was innocent it was up to me to prove
23:52it was up to up to the prosecution to
23:54prove that i was guilty and he didn't
23:56think that it happened
23:57that's a pretty naive way to practice
23:59law particularly in a confession because
24:01you got to answer that confession you
24:02got to explain that confession you have
24:04to disprove that confession because
24:05there's a
24:0680 conviction rating cases that have
24:08confession so he he didn't do any of
24:10that
24:11and then he told me that his win lost
24:13record was better when he didn't
24:15but his clients didn't testify as
24:17compared to when they did but
24:19most of them probably had criminal
24:20records but i i didn't
24:22and so that really didn't didn't apply
24:24to me so added all up i was uh
24:26wrongfully convicted and given a 15 to
24:28life sentence which i was sent to a
24:31men's maximum security prison to serve
24:33since i had been charged as an adult
24:36it just gets more kafka-esque you're not
24:38able to refute the confession
24:40right because your lawyer said we don't
24:43need to do that or i don't want you to
24:44do that
24:45right god so you were found guilty and
24:48sentenced
24:48and yes in this big time prison
24:51correct i didn't have that work well
24:55it was very uh not very well it was very
24:58dangerous there you know at times i was
25:00beat up one time i was nearly uh i was
25:02nearly killed i mean this vigilante
25:04mentality towards
25:05people have been convicted of sex
25:07offenses in prison so
25:09you know i had this target on my back
25:11and you know i'm 17 years old i mean the
25:13men's maximum security president i mean
25:15let's be for real
25:16how am i going to defend myself against
25:18you know grown adults many of whom are
25:20guilty of committing violent crimes i
25:22had to
25:24had to fight off feelings of
25:25hopelessness helplessness
25:27thoughts of giving up suicidal ideation
25:30so that that went on in addition to the
25:32physical part of it
25:33and route to the to when i was
25:36eventually exonerated i mean i lost
25:38seven appeals and i got turned down for
25:41uh parole
25:42so you're battling to stay alive in
25:44prison when did you decide you needed to
25:47fight the conviction
25:48right away as soon as i was convicted
25:51you know i realized that i mean it was
25:52after the fact that i realized that
25:54you know my lawyer really put up very
25:56little to no fight
25:58you know so i didn't trust lawyers
26:00anymore to defend me
26:01you know i felt like i needed to try to
26:03be a little bit more proactive than that
26:05it was an old-timer in the in the prison
26:07that told me look you got to go to the
26:09law library and learn the law
26:11and stay on top of your lawyer and give
26:13suggestions when you can and so that's
26:15what i did
26:16you know i used to go to law library is
26:18to learn the law
26:19i used to collect articles about other
26:21people who were exonerated in order to
26:24keep my morale up and i was trying to
26:25study who helped them and what
26:27route did they take you know i did
26:29things to avoid my time being in prison
26:32being a total waste i mean i got ged i
26:34got an associates
26:36i completed a year towards the bachelors
26:38before funding was cut
26:39i completed a lot of vocational programs
26:42as well while i was there
26:43and i used to read from 1998 forward i
26:46read three to four
26:47non-fiction books a week you know just
26:50trying to do stuff
26:51to learn and that was all in addition to
26:53writing letters looking for help i mean
26:55i was trying to find an attorney and an
26:57investigator to
26:59take my case once my appeals were
27:00exhausted and the whole time
27:03you were on your own did you have legal
27:05representation as you were
27:07uh well i i did throughout the appeals
27:09process so i'd like to put a little bit
27:10of color
27:11just in a concise way to the appeals
27:13because the injustice continued
27:15uh at the post-conviction level so my
27:18lawyer
27:19um you know argued that that i was the
27:21prosecution um
27:22that the verdict was against the weight
27:24of the evidence that the prosecution
27:25hadn't proven guilt beyond a reasonable
27:27doubt
27:27and that there was legally insufficient
27:30evidence to find me guilty
27:31you know all that was wrapped around the
27:33dna and the lack of evidence other than
27:35this confession
27:36she argued that the confession was
27:38coerced and false
27:40and then she uh argued six other issues
27:42of law
27:43so the appellate division they've ruled
27:45that my the confession was voluntary
27:47that you know i had been free to come
27:49and go as i wanted
27:51and then they ruled that there was
27:52overwhelming evidence of guilt which is
27:54kind of a head scratcher considering
27:56that they had no evidence that the dna
27:58didn't match me
27:59they got they got rid of all of my other
28:01arguments in one sentence by
28:03ruling that they had looked at my
28:05remaining contentions and found them
28:06either to be
28:08uh not preserved for review or else not
28:10having any merit
28:12they ruled against me five to nothing it
28:15was all downhill from there even worse
28:17so
28:17the rear argument motion was denied in
28:19one word uh the
28:21denied court of appeals declined to give
28:23me permission to appeal to them
28:25i lost in federal court because the
28:27court clerk gave my lawyers the wrong
28:29information on the filing procedure
28:31uh which caused my petition to arrive
28:33four days too late
28:35which the then uh the district attorney
28:37janine parrell her office took the
28:38position that the four days were
28:40prejudicial to the people
28:41so then i got time barred i challenged
28:44that ruling
28:44at the u.s court of appeals which
28:46included for future u.s supreme court
28:48justice sonia sodi mayor they upheld
28:50that ruling
28:51they declined my re-argument motion and
28:54the u.s supreme court declined to give
28:56me permission to appeal to them
28:58so i wrote letters for the once your
29:00appeals are over the only way back into
29:02court is if you can find
29:03some previously unknown evidence of
29:06innocence or
29:07unless there's been some retroactive
29:09change in the law so i wrote a lot of
29:11letters looking for help
29:12rarely getting responses then i went to
29:15the parole board
29:16and in part because i maintained my
29:18innocence rather than expressing remorse
29:20and taking responsibility
29:22i was denied parole as well ultimately i
29:25was exonerated through further
29:27dna testing that i got through the with
29:30the innocence project's help and it
29:31not only reaffirmed the prior negative
29:33result but it identified the actual
29:35perpetrator they identified him because
29:38his dna was in the system correct
29:40left free while i was doing time for his
29:42crime he killed the second victim three
29:44and a half years later who was a school
29:46teacher and had two children
29:48so my my uh all of my charges were
29:50dismissed on actual innocence grounds
29:52whereas he was arrested for in charge
29:56with the
29:56the ultimately convicted of killing the
29:58victim in my case
29:59so do you get the impression that if if
30:02there wasn't a match with his dna
30:04you might still be in prison without a
30:06doubt if they do that and they can't
30:07find
30:08whose dna it is tough luck for you yeah
30:11exactly right which you know it's a
30:13really bothersome thing
30:14you know about the system that that's
30:16really what bothers me so much is that
30:19it was a series of fluke incidents that
30:21nobody could rely on
30:23you know from winding up with the
30:25unison's project's help
30:26to the d.a leaving office to getting
30:29lucky that the actual criminal committed
30:31another crime and gotten caught for that
30:33amazing set of circumstances that
30:36finally exonerated you
30:38and got you freed correct yes just like
30:41that
30:42and then what happens yeah so i was
30:45well i was released immediately um with
30:47nothing
30:48and it was a very tough existence for
30:51about
30:51uh five years so new york state has a
30:54compensation statute where you can
30:56sue for compensation and you can you
30:58know i also so i did that and i also
31:00had had a federal lawsuit filed but you
31:03know
31:04that it took about five years before i
31:06got anything so
31:07you know i um as a result you know was
31:09very it was a result of that it was it
31:10was
31:11very difficult going so i was always
31:13passed over for gainful employment you
31:15know i bounced i lacked stability of
31:16housing and at one point i was a couple
31:19of weeks from a homeless shelter
31:20technology had passed me by you know
31:23internet gps
31:25different methods of banking these
31:26things didn't uh cell phones
31:28all those things did not exist before
31:30you know um
31:31i lost long since lost touch with all my
31:34former friends and
31:36you know and uh same with um say my uh
31:39extended family as well so i was
31:41essentially by myself and i had to deal
31:43with the psychological after effects of
31:45the experience i mean it's common for
31:47people to have
31:48post-traumatic stress disorder panic
31:50attacks anxiety
31:51fear on seeing law enforcement feeling
31:53of um having been frozen in time
31:56a feeling of having of processing things
31:58at a slower
32:00speed than everyone else so it was very
32:02difficult and then the fact that i had
32:04went in prison at 17
32:05posed a particular difficulty so you
32:08know i had never before
32:09had a license why to get a driver's
32:11license i had never wrote a check before
32:13i never lived on my own and you know we
32:15had to make ends meet
32:16so it was very uh it was very difficult
32:19but i i did start making
32:20some money sporadically uh doing
32:22speaking engagements and i caught on as
32:25a weekly columnist for a newspaper
32:26the westchester guardian so that was my
32:28only consistent form of income but it
32:30was a weekly paper so they only wanted
32:32they only wanted one article a week you
32:34know so thank god for um you know mercy
32:37college which gave me the scholarship to
32:39finish the bachelor's and when i lost
32:40the housing they allowed me to live on
32:42campus
32:43so that was how i avoided the homeless
32:44shelter and at some point after that
32:47a non-profit entity called human
32:48development services of westchester they
32:51rented an apartment for me and i had to
32:53just give them 30
32:54of whatever i made in the course of a
32:56month even if that was nothing
32:57so that was how i avoided the shelter
32:59but you know i uh
33:00just began this advocacy trail and that
33:03was how i made it the first five years
33:05so you hadn't decided to become an
33:07attorney then yeah well i
33:09well not not initially no but
33:12um at some point though when i graduated
33:14with the bachelor's degree i i
33:16went towards the end of completing that
33:18then i wanted to be an attorney so i
33:20when i graduated i did apply to law
33:22school
33:22having taken the um the entrance exam
33:24but i didn't score very well and
33:26uh i went all 411 on applications to law
33:29schools all they were looking at was the
33:31score not me as a whole
33:32so from there i spent about six months
33:35in a dead-end job that i hated
33:37and then i finally decided that i would
33:39get the master's degree which i did from
33:41john jay college i got a master's in
33:43criminal justice i
33:44wrote a thesis on wrongful conviction
33:46cause and reform
33:48and um as i mentioned i was doing a lot
33:50of advocacy from speaking to writing
33:52articles to doing a lot of
33:54multimedia interviews to meeting with
33:56elected officials
33:57and then finally i was compensated and i
34:00decided to use some of the money to
34:01start the jeffrey deskovic foundation
34:03for justice whose purpose is to free
34:05other people who are in the same
34:06position and to continue on with the
34:08policy work
34:09so we were able to get seven people home
34:11we helped pass three laws in new york
34:13and
34:14an advisory board member if it could
34:16happen to you and we helped
34:17as a coalition and we passed another
34:19three laws in new york and and i also
34:21said on the
34:22global advisory council for restorative
34:24justice international i um
34:26advised him on wrongful conviction
34:27criminal justice matters
34:29so i started that and then i made a
34:31second attempt to get into law school
34:33and i made it in ironically this time i
34:35scored an even lower score than before
34:37but uh i think well look i think i think
34:40the law schools were hurting for
34:41students and then on top of that
34:43i think they were finally taking a more
34:44holistic look at students and so they
34:46took a chance on me so
34:48you know i was able to graduate pace law
34:50school in 2019 the law degree
34:53and i passed the bar exam and another
34:55exam on new york law so i'm pending
34:57admission right now i'm waiting to get
34:58called by the
34:59character and fitness committee and pass
35:01that interview and then just get the law
35:03license and all that is in
35:04pursuit of the dream of exonerating
35:06others as as an attorney um i got tired
35:08of sitting in the front row of the
35:10courtroom
35:10i wanted to represent some of the
35:12clients so if i was to use a sports
35:14knowledge i was i was tired of being the
35:16head coach
35:17i wanted to get on the field and play
35:18quarterback yes
35:20so and as you said you've already
35:22managed to exonerate seven people
35:25well yeah we freed seven people sure and
35:27there's more to come
35:28and there's more to come yes we have 12
35:30active cases right now and another three
35:32that are
35:33approved but are uh but are waiting and
35:35you know legislatively was still working
35:37in new york at
35:38passing and commission on prosecutor
35:40conduct and you know when the state
35:42mandated videotaping interrogations they
35:44made some exceptions for that they
35:46the law stated that if it's a
35:48second-degree murder case or a sex
35:50offense case or a drug case it's not
35:52mandatory so we want to try to get rid
35:54of those exceptions and
35:56you know we're working in other states
35:58now with the coalition group um it could
36:00happen to you um we
36:01don't we're not just working on those
36:02measures in new york but we have
36:04chapters in pennsylvania and california
36:06where we're trying to bring the
36:08oversight to uh prosecutors which we
36:10passed in new york we're trying to bring
36:12that to those states and
36:13california we're trying to also get rid
36:15of capital punishment because of the
36:16obvious risk of
36:18executing innocent people and whereas in
36:20pennsylvania
36:21and we're trying they have no
36:22compensation so they're one of 15 states
36:25that has no compensation so we're trying
36:27to
36:28pass that with the oversight of the
36:30prosecutors and we're trying to
36:31get automatic expungement i mean so
36:33there's a lot of exonerees in
36:35pennsylvania that
36:36although they've been exonerated in
36:37court their records aren't cleaned
36:39so that hinders them when it comes to
36:41for job applications and
36:43uh you know housing applying for part
36:44you know housing etc
36:46your attorney who defended you who
36:48wasn't able to
36:50adequately do that any repercussions
36:52from that
36:53or possibly from the medical examiner
36:55who
36:56basically lied well there has been no
36:58repercussions for the public defender i
37:00mean i did
37:01sue him and the legal entity but i mean
37:03they the entity
37:04at westchester legal aid they paid it
37:06not him it was their insurance company
37:08nothing happened criminally to the uh to
37:10the medical examiner
37:12personally i mean i did sue him and the
37:14county had to pay for
37:16you know they settled with me i mean he
37:18quit he suddenly quit his job
37:19so he found other cases where he had
37:21altered his findings to fit the
37:23prosecution theory so
37:24he quit his job so that was that was a
37:27fallout of it
37:28the trial prosecutor suddenly retired
37:31and ran to florida
37:32two weeks before i emerged so it seems
37:36pretty clear that he was
37:37tipped off to you know get out of town
37:39you know a media storm is coming you
37:41know desk vic is being exonerated
37:43but other than that you didn't pay for
37:45it and neither did uh neither did any of
37:47the
37:48law enforcement uh entities involved in
37:50coercing the confession
37:52from me nobody uh no there was no
37:54consequences to anybody
37:55and that's one of the things that really
37:57bothers me a lot
37:58and well and then there's the whole
38:00thing about why pirro or or whoever she
38:02yeah it was piro yeah janine perro yeah
38:04why were they so reluctant to re-test
38:07the dna
38:08yeah yeah that's a question that every
38:10time she's asked why
38:11why didn't she uh do it why didn't she
38:13test it re-test the dna
38:15her go-to line is that she was not the
38:18district attorney when i was convicted
38:20that's true enough but you took office
38:23before my first appeal was decided
38:25your office kept the ball rolling
38:27against me as your office that was
38:29arguing that a negative dna test is no
38:32insulation to a guilty verdict
38:34you all were fighting my innocence
38:36claims she prevented me from getting
38:38further dna testing after she had agreed
38:40to testing and exoneration in an
38:42unrelated
38:43westchester county uh rape case the
38:45terry chalmers case where she
38:47agreed to the exoneration and explaining
38:49her decision publicly she was
38:51referencing the accuracy of dna so based
38:54on that i wrote her and like well what
38:55about this old case in the file where
38:57the dna doesn't match me
38:59could you re-look at the dna and she
39:01refused to do that
39:02and she fought me when i tried to get
39:04the further testing in
39:06in federal court documents so she's
39:08never taken any kind of responsibility
39:10for her role in everything and somewhere
39:13i read that you had even offered to pay
39:14for it yourself
39:16no i i i didn't offer to i didn't have
39:18any money to offer to um
39:19uh pay for it but she she didn't but she
39:22would not yeah
39:23yeah she would not allow me to do the
39:25testing i mean you know similarly i mean
39:27you know uh
39:27judge uh you know well the thing that
39:29frustrates me just
39:30one more thing on pirro is that in her
39:32position as a commentator on fox news i
39:34mean she's
39:35this bastion of a supporter for due
39:38process
39:39and where was all that when you were the
39:41d.a i i didn't see any of that other
39:43people were
39:44wrongfully convicted on her watch that
39:46were later exonerated on seven days
39:48chiang kai-tipi
39:49you know that frustrates me you know
39:52then even uh
39:53you know u.s supreme court justice sonia
39:55sotomayor you know she's never
39:57apologized to me she's never
39:59made any kind of public statement you
40:01know it was the wrong decision that
40:03she upheld the lower federal court
40:05ruling that
40:06my being late four days right a lateness
40:09caused by
40:10misinformation by the court clerk you
40:12know that that was more important
40:14than my arguing my innocence as
40:16supported by a dna test
40:18so i tried to testify at the senate
40:21confirmation hearings to
40:22when she was in the process of being
40:24considered for confirmation
40:26but the issue was that her having been
40:28nominated by president obama
40:30the democrats who normally would have
40:32been all over something like that at
40:33least prior to these days
40:35they didn't want to go against a nominee
40:38from a president of their party
40:39and on the republican side again except
40:42until recently
40:43in general their barriers to criminal
40:46justice reform
40:48legislation so they weren't willing to
40:50utilize
40:51my case or mia in their opposition to
40:53her so
40:54i didn't get anywhere with that and
40:56other than
40:57news coverage in new york that i was
40:59able to generate i was never able to
41:01generate the
41:02national media attention that i really
41:05needed to create that
41:06firestorm to really for them to have to
41:09call me i mean the ap
41:10reported on it new york times did and
41:12and that was uh
41:13that was pretty much it every the rest
41:15of the coverage was limited to
41:17uh limited to new york that's some story
41:20i can only imagine the frustration yeah
41:23but
41:23the despite that you know i mean i'm
41:25determined to
41:27enjoy my life as much as i can so i'm
41:29not angry or bitter
41:31you know if i was to be angry or bitter
41:32i mean i feel like i would in effect be
41:34losing the rest of my life
41:36and it's not like i would be adversely
41:39affecting anyone who was involved with
41:40what happened to me if i was angry or
41:42better so
41:43you know the vehicle that allows me to
41:46exercise that is i i doing the advocacy
41:48work and so i take that energy and i
41:50channel it into
41:51doing the advocacy work so you know this
41:54is really what i do
41:5524 7. so i'm engaged in a lot of
41:57advocacy from continuing to speak and
41:59doing media multimedia interviews and
42:02meeting regularly meeting with elected
42:04officials and sometimes i write op-eds
42:06and then you know the cases that the
42:08foundation does you know and then even
42:10cases that are not foundation cases but
42:12that we you know support
42:13in one way or the other whether that's
42:14some grassroots tactics of helping to
42:17fill the courtroom or helping to get
42:18strategic media
42:20around cases so if it's wrongful
42:22conviction related pretty good chance
42:23i'm involved in it one way or another
42:25and
42:26you know i've gotten some recognition
42:27for my advocacy work and
42:29occasionally in political races where
42:32wrongful conviction and or
42:34criminal justice reform is on the plank
42:36that a candidate is running on
42:38of either party you know i have
42:39sometimes endorsed in
42:41in those races just to further the issue
42:43and move the right people into place to
42:45try to
42:45you know make the justice system more
42:48accurate so i kind of found my purpose
42:50in all of this yeah it sounds like it
42:54amazing thank you so boys and girls
42:57here's the questionary tale for you yeah
42:59the very important thing
43:01is if the police want to speak with you
43:03you know you ask for a lawyer
43:05you know you that'll level the playing
43:07field you know a lot of people think
43:08that
43:09they not guilty of a crime they don't
43:11know anything about the crime what can
43:13possibly go wrong from speaking to the
43:15police but i'm a real life example that
43:17quite a bit
43:17actually can go wrong so there's that
43:21uh that people should know and i believe
43:23in chasing dreams
43:25and working really really hard in order
43:27to turn them into reality i mean when i
43:29was a teenager i did want to become a
43:32lawyer
43:33and i did ultimately uh do that albeit
43:36with my life taking a much different
43:37route and
43:38you know many years later but you know i
43:40do believe in chasing dreams working
43:42hard
43:42i appreciate the small things such as
43:45just freedom of movement
43:46fresh air on my face and feeling the
43:48sunlight and just the opportunities that
43:50that the world
43:51offers just just being free is
43:52contrasted with being in prison so
43:55those are things i would encourage
43:56people i do want to share
43:58on on a human interest level that it was
44:01difficult
44:02rebuilding relationships with you know
44:04immediate and extended family that i had
44:06a
44:06minimal of contact with while i was
44:08incarcerated but i've worked real hard
44:10at that and
44:11you know i'm happy that you know my
44:12relationship with my mother is in a
44:13really good place
44:15now and i'm better at much better terms
44:17with my extended family um one of the
44:18consequences is was that there was a lot
44:21of guilt
44:22on their end that they didn't maintain
44:24contact with me support me morale wise
44:26or contribute when
44:28several times my mother made rounds
44:29amongst the family and asked everybody
44:31to make a
44:32contribution that was within their means
44:34to pull money to higher
44:35legal representation and you know
44:37everybody declined
44:39so there was that part of it to work out
44:41on their end and
44:42it was awkward for me talking with
44:45somebody that
44:46i know who they are intellectually from
44:48memories when i was younger but yet
44:50they're adults now they're a different
44:52person and so am i so
44:53that was awkward and difficult but we've
44:55like worked past
44:56a lot of that in the 14 years that i've
44:58been home so things are in a
45:00are in a better place it seems that
45:02there's not one
45:04aspect of your life that hasn't been
45:06affected yeah that's very true
45:08that's very true you know i would say
45:10the biggest challenge is now
45:12you know is just trying to put my life
45:14all together i mean i feel like
45:16career-wise things have been really
45:18good education-wise it's been great and
45:20you know i have a really big
45:22body of work as an advocate but the part
45:24that it still be doubles me some
45:26is just trying to put together a a new
45:29social life with new people
45:31that part is still difficult i mean i'm
45:3246 now physically but
45:35i feel more like if i'm 25 26 so
45:38i still want to throw a ball around and
45:40you know let's go to an amusement park
45:42and
45:43you know let's go to new places and have
45:45new experiences and do new things and
45:48most people my age they did that already
45:50you know they're in a different walk of
45:51life
45:51in a different stage of life so who are
45:53my peers to do that with
45:55and then also i'm able to do things that
45:58a lot of other people
45:59can't just from a financial point of
46:01view and so
46:02at times it's gotten awkward from you
46:04know i socialize with
46:06some of the other exonerees that haven't
46:07yet been compensated or
46:09even people on parole that i knew while
46:12i was on the inside that are living
46:14crime-free lives now
46:15many of them doing meaningful work but
46:17you know they're struggling
46:18financially and so it's becomes
46:21difficult because
46:22if jeff doesn't pay for everything
46:24nobody can afford to do anything so
46:25that's been a
46:26that's been another awkward part of that
46:28and you know at times i've lost
46:30associations relationships however you
46:33want to phrase it with
46:34people who see me as the answer to their
46:36financial problems so i've
46:38had difficulties in that area also sure
46:41if people look at the amount of money
46:42that was awarded to you they'll say
46:44uh-huh
46:45this guy's got some dough right yeah
46:47they think that and then they think that
46:49you can make a lot more than what you
46:51know the market right now is doing like
46:52two percent
46:53that's what you can make safely without
46:55taking a lot of risk but people think
46:57that you
46:57make more than that and i don't spend
46:59the principle of what i got because i
47:01know
47:01exactly what it's like not to have
47:03anything you know i was that way for
47:05five years
47:06out here where you know i was making 250
47:09a week
47:10so i know what it is not to have
47:11anything and i don't ever want to go
47:13back to that so
47:14the only thing i spend is whatever i
47:15earn and that's i don't touch the
47:17principal and that doesn't make a lot
47:19and so people don't think like that
47:20they're just thinking when they ask me
47:22for one thing or another they're just
47:24they're thinking like i'm just gonna
47:25take some of the money and just hand it
47:27to them and you know i can't do that if
47:29i do that
47:29you know i'm gonna wind up back with
47:31nothing and i've heard horror stories of
47:33other you know exonerees and even people
47:35who've like won the lottery you know
47:37losing everything so i'm determined not
47:39to let that happen to me
47:41that's the story yeah but you know just
47:44just trying to make a change just trying
47:46to make you know make a difference in
47:47the world and
47:48doing that is the best i can and i feel
47:51i feel a strong moral obligation because
47:53i know that a lot of
47:55people in my position haven't had the
47:57same educational opportunities i've had
47:59and
48:00trying to be that voice for the
48:01voiceless and and i can't
48:03forget about the people that i
48:05metaphorically left behind so
48:06that's why i do the advocacy work that i
48:08do you're gonna keep on doing it
48:10absolutely good for you well i don't
48:13have any more questions
48:14well i believe at this point you're
48:16gonna you're gonna review a beer
48:18i picked you a good beer from a brewery
48:20in queens i've had a few of these beers
48:22all right yes that's the that's one of
48:25the aspects of
48:26your podcast that brings a smile to my
48:28face when i think about it such an
48:29unusual
48:30uh twist to things and uh i like new
48:33things so this will be something though
48:34perfect thank you so much sure thank you
48:40[Music]
48:47jill what are you burning out here
48:49bodies
48:51well no i'm throwing in all of our
48:53earbuds and headphones with a little bit
48:55of lighter fluid
48:56as my protest against podcast ads
48:59in my favorite shows i'm just getting
49:02into a story or i'm dozing off
49:04and it's interrupted with commercials
49:07i'm mad as hell
49:08and i'm not going to take it anymore
49:11nice movie reference anyway let's just
49:14simmer down here
49:16you do know that our true crime brewery
49:17listeners have the option to subscribe
49:19to our premium show for ad-free episodes
49:22and
49:23bonus episodes right it costs as little
49:26as four dollars per month
49:27and these contributions help support the
49:29costs of producing tcb
49:32well of course i love and appreciate our
49:34subscribers
49:36you know i worked for weeks with our it
49:38girl to set that up
49:39and all because i have a deeply held
49:41belief that our listeners
49:43shouldn't have to hear ads that's well
49:46said
49:47now let me ask you this how are we going
49:50to record this week's episode without
49:52our headphones
49:53oh for [ __ ] sake will you stay here
49:55i'll go get the hose
49:56okay hurry
50:02[Music]
50:11good job dickie i really enjoyed that
50:12interview it was
50:14uh a good interview because jeffrey's a
50:16a good subject to talk to
50:18yeah yeah really added a lot of personal
50:21touches to the story
50:23yeah and the story wow
50:26i mean it's kind of like the perfect
50:27storm of circumstances that got him
50:30there
50:30kind of is and then kind of the way he
50:33got out too
50:34right just kind of a fluke or he'd still
50:36be in prison which makes me think about
50:38how many more people are in prison that
50:40shouldn't be you know
50:42scary and i when i think about that i
50:44think can we really have a death penalty
50:46just executing one innocent person would
50:48be horrible
50:49they would i've come around to the
50:51conclusion that i'd rather see them in
50:53prison for life without parole
50:56than put to death i think so i mean it's
50:58not like they're just put to death
51:00immediately
51:01no there's all sorts of appeals and
51:03stuff to go through right
51:05right so so i think they'd be better
51:07punished by
51:08keeping them in prison and just from my
51:11way of thinking i don't think killing is
51:13ever an option
51:14that's really going to be productive or
51:16good for anyone
51:17right but it really also just
51:20seemed really cruel to me how with the
51:23good cop bad cop situation he was
51:25explaining
51:26this one good cop kind of befriended
51:29jeffrey to the point where he saw him as
51:30a father figure i mean that's sad
51:32and then just imagine the feeling of
51:34betrayal he must have felt
51:36from that it's a horrible way to do it
51:39it is yeah
51:40and i can't believe i i can because it
51:43happened
51:44you know how could his mother allow him
51:46to be interviewed
51:47by himself yeah i just think most people
51:50don't know any better
51:52you really can't blame her she's wasn't
51:54a lawyer she doesn't know any better
51:56and hopefully people do know better now
51:59well we've we've long
52:00said that and it's nice to hear jeffrey
52:03say
52:04get an attorney yes because we do know
52:07that
52:07at least in some states i think most
52:09states a minor
52:11can be interrogated without a parent or
52:13a lawyer there
52:14and i do know if a minor asks for their
52:17parent it's not the same as asking for
52:18an attorney the questioning doesn't stop
52:21the police can just say yeah well your
52:23mom will be here later or something and
52:25continue to interrogate
52:26right if you say i want a lawyer yes
52:29that's what you need to say
52:30yes absolutely although in these cases
52:33where it hasn't been recorded
52:35i often wonder maybe they do say that
52:38i mean we have seen recorded
52:40interrogations where the person mentions
52:42a lawyer
52:43says i should get a lawyer or maybe i
52:46should talk to a lawyer and that doesn't
52:48stop him
52:48you have to really ask for a lawyer you
52:51have to be very definitive about it
52:53absolutely i want a lawyer
52:56yep so yeah and the other thing is that
53:00suppose janine pirro wanted to be
53:03district attorney for life
53:04he never would have gotten his dna
53:06testing done oh my god that's just a lot
53:08of power to give anyone
53:10yeah also that makes me think of the
53:12judge when he was considering whether he
53:14wanted a bench or a jury trial
53:16the judge tells the defense attorney
53:18that we're going to need to sit a jury
53:20because i don't want to be responsible
53:22for making this decision
53:24outrageous attorney doesn't do anything
53:26with that oh
53:27it's awful yeah and also it struck me
53:30did he say there was no signed
53:31confession
53:32right so how does that work well it's
53:35the cops word against his
53:37wow that seems crazy to me it does you
53:41really i guess the
53:42overall thing that i take home with me
53:44from this is that you're really in the
53:45hands of strangers and
53:47they may not have your best interests in
53:49their mind
53:51they might not their job is to
53:54get a suspect to confess yes
53:58well and i'm thinking of the defense
53:59attorney is it his job to give him the
54:02best defense possible
54:03it doesn't seem like that happens all
54:05the time no it doesn't
54:06no you know if you think about our court
54:09system if everyone
54:10got a trial it would just stop right
54:12there there's no way it could be done
54:13most people take a plea deal
54:15so it seems like a lot of the attorneys
54:18are just trying to
54:19get things settled and move on to the
54:21next case which is really unfortunate
54:23yeah there's pressure involved you can't
54:26spend too much time on each case
54:28or on an individual case well yeah i
54:31think especially
54:32if you're a court appointed attorney
54:35yep and you see the list of clients they
54:38have to deal with
54:39and the amount of time it's really kind
54:41of impossible to do
54:42your job properly in some of these
54:44circumstances
54:45but it seems like he's come out of all
54:48this
54:49in fairly good shape oh yeah i think
54:52it's remarkable
54:54i'm really impressed with how he dealt
54:55with so much at such a young age on his
54:57own
54:58i couldn't do it i mean to persist like
55:00that and come out of it
55:02and then on top of it not to be angry
55:04and bitter it'd be tough for
55:06me not to be angry and bitter well we're
55:08already angry and bitter so
55:10maybe something like this would just
55:12make it worse right
55:13oh no question yeah i'd just be so
55:16unhappy and pissed off yeah i mean at
55:19the same
55:20time you can only do that for so long
55:21and then you have to accept what's going
55:23on and
55:24work your way out of it and that's what
55:26he was able to do
55:27he was i mean i don't know that i'd be
55:29able to do that
55:30i don't think i would at all so it is
55:32impressive very
55:34yeah so thank you to jeffrey deskovic he
55:37was good we
55:38might have to talk to him some other
55:39time well you know this case
55:41is reminding me quite a bit of a case i
55:44think we're doing next month the case of
55:46angie dodge a lot of our listeners might
55:48have heard of this
55:50it's been on dateline or 48 hours a few
55:52times and
55:53it's another one with a false confession
55:56and the dna that was found
55:58of the guy that was convicted was not
56:00his but they just kind of talked him
56:02into being
56:03an accessory yeah and he confessed you
56:06know the same kind of story telling him
56:07he could go home
56:08and all that he was alone so very
56:11similar
56:11so we'll see when we get to that we
56:13might want to consult him see what he
56:15has to say we might need some advice
56:17yeah absolutely right so tcb's music was
56:20written and produced by tristan capelle
56:23if you enjoy listening to our shows
56:25please consider leaving us a review on
56:27itunes or wherever it is that you listen
56:29also if you visit our website tie
56:31grabber dot com
56:33you will find a shopping page where you
56:34can buy some of our brewery merch
56:36we've got teas tanks and of course we
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57:09and also once you remember you don't
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57:13sign up anymore yeah you'll be in the
57:15ad-free spot
57:16ad-free person that's right all right
57:18what have we got for feedback today
57:20we do have some feedback this week i was
57:22kind of lazy last week and didn't do any
57:24but i got some this week so the
57:26voicemail is from lindsay
57:28and she has a case suggestion
57:33hi jill and dick it's lindsay a long
57:35time listener
57:36um i know you don't like to receive
57:38compliments but i'm going to give you
57:39one anyway
57:40really look forward to your episode
57:42coming out each week
57:44particularly like the way that you guys
57:46communicate with each other and the
57:47amount of respect you have for one
57:48another
57:49that was really inspirational and i was
57:51wondering if you guys are watching the
57:53vow on hbo
57:54like i am it's about nexium and i don't
57:58mean the drug
57:59it's just crazy i'm from the capital
58:01region upstate new york and this
58:03gentleman was arrested
58:04in clifton park which is an upscale
58:06neighborhood
58:08and you know watching the story in the
58:10newspaper and now
58:11seeing it unfold on hbo is just crazy to
58:14think that this happened right here in
58:15our area
58:16um the most interesting part is that
58:18i've always had a misconception that
58:20people who ended up in cults
58:22you know must have something emotionally
58:24wrong with them
58:25you know or missing that they would end
58:28up in that situation and that's not what
58:29i'm seeing at all it's
58:31really intelligent articulate successful
58:34people
58:34and even actresses who fell for this
58:37stuff so
58:38it's really super interesting i'm
58:40interested in the psychology behind it
58:41which i'm not seeing a lot of
58:44in the documentary so i think it will be
58:46something you guys might like to cover
58:47one day
58:48and that's it thank you guys well thanks
58:51lindsay i just want to say first of all
58:53it's not that we don't like compliments
58:55we love compliments
58:56it's just i don't really feel like our
58:58listeners want to hear our praises over
59:00and over again
59:01and you know i have a certain amount of
59:04self-loathing
59:05and criticism that makes it hard for me
59:06to deal with anything positive being
59:08said about me
59:10so that's out of the way and we did
59:12start watching the vow dickie
59:14fascinating stuff what have you got to
59:16say about that
59:17well we've seen a few episodes i want to
59:20definitely keep watching it
59:22uh it's a fascinating show lindsay says
59:24that it seems like
59:26regular people that get taken in by this
59:29but
59:29i would also say that yeah they might be
59:31regular people but there must be
59:33something
59:34that they think they're missing yes to
59:36sign up for this
59:38charade well sure but i mean we all feel
59:40like we're missing something right so it
59:42doesn't make them different from
59:43any of us it's just the way that they're
59:45dealing with it
59:46may be different than we would okay i'll
59:49give you that
59:50because i'm just there's no way i would
59:52join this cult
59:53probably not no i'm gonna agree with you
59:56that you probably wouldn't fall for that
59:58i'm thinking maybe if i was a single
1:00:00woman 20 years ago i might have
1:00:02you know the thing is when you're in it
1:00:04it's much different than looking in from
1:00:06the outside like anything else
1:00:08sure but i guess the tip off to me is
1:00:10whenever you have
1:00:11one person who's kind of godlike and
1:00:14everybody's looking up to them and
1:00:16and that's what this seems to be from
1:00:17the first couple episodes i saw
1:00:20that's always like hey you're in a cult
1:00:23right
1:00:23yeah if there's somebody who's claiming
1:00:25to know things that nobody else
1:00:27knows you're in a cult and i can't wait
1:00:29to find out if any of those people
1:00:32who signed up joined whatever you want
1:00:34to call it
1:00:35did a background check on this leader
1:00:38because a lot of the things they said
1:00:40about them
1:00:40we're thinking are not true we're
1:00:42thinking that's a lot of [ __ ] going
1:00:44on there probably embellished things a
1:00:46little a little bit
1:00:47so yeah i can't wait to finish it really
1:00:50good keep watching
1:00:51the other thing with this type of
1:00:53situation my bias against this is that
1:00:56the leaders of the cult or whatever you
1:00:58want to call it
1:00:59seems to me that their their mission is
1:01:01to have sex with as many people as
1:01:03possible
1:01:04that happens a lot you think that's
1:01:05where we're headed with this one we
1:01:07haven't really got to that
1:01:08i would wager yeah we'll see yeah
1:01:10absolutely i don't want to give it away
1:01:12for anyone but
1:01:13it is fascinating stuff it is so i
1:01:16appreciate lindsay telling us about it
1:01:18yeah because i think i saw the vow in my
1:01:21hbo
1:01:22on demand list when i was looking for
1:01:24something to watch and i didn't know
1:01:25what the hell it was at first
1:01:27i thought it was that movie with
1:01:28channing tatum
1:01:30and rachel mcadams that's called the vow
1:01:33but then it was a documentary series so
1:01:36quite different figured it out yeah yeah
1:01:38okay
1:01:39so we also have a case suggestion email
1:01:42from patricia
1:01:43why don't you read that one for us sure
1:01:46you guys really make it seem easy but
1:01:48honestly describing complex sagas
1:01:51in an entertaining relaxed fashion
1:01:54always
1:01:54have you read a killer among us it's a
1:01:57terrible tale for a fascinating
1:01:59true man kills wife tale great ending
1:02:02too
1:02:02thanks for the fun so without giving too
1:02:06much if anything away
1:02:08elizabeth de cairo was a 28 year old
1:02:10mother of four kids
1:02:12found shot to death in her home her
1:02:14husband became an immediate suspect
1:02:17since he had accidentally struck her
1:02:19with a car and not
1:02:20long before she was murdered and this is
1:02:23after taking out a life insurance policy
1:02:25on her
1:02:26wow and there's more but we'll get into
1:02:28that
1:02:29yeah that's really ringing a bell i
1:02:30might have heard of this or seen a true
1:02:32crime show about it but
1:02:34i think it's something we're going to
1:02:35cover in the next couple of months so
1:02:37good case suggestion patricia that's a
1:02:39good one then we have another case
1:02:41suggestion from rob paul
1:02:44all right so rob writes love love love
1:02:46your podcast and would like to
1:02:48compliment you on your thorough research
1:02:50and ability to tell a gripping story
1:02:52from start to finish without losing the
1:02:54thread although i realize you're not
1:02:56fans of basking in compliments
1:02:59take that up with your shrinks well
1:03:01that's probably good advice
1:03:02at least for me yeah i'd like to make a
1:03:04recommendation for a case i haven't seen
1:03:07covered in any other podcast
1:03:09you say you like to cover dreadful cases
1:03:12and this one has it in spades
1:03:14it's the case of john de blasio i'm not
1:03:17sure if i pronounced that right
1:03:19and his common-law wife heather keaton
1:03:21who were both on death row in alabama
1:03:23for the torture and murder
1:03:25of his two children natalie and chase
1:03:28it's both horrifying and haunting i've
1:03:31never been able to get it out of my mind
1:03:33you might need some brain bleach as well
1:03:36but their story should be told because
1:03:37they simply deserve it for what they
1:03:39were put through
1:03:40and that's a great point i always feel
1:03:42that way at first when we started doing
1:03:44true crime i was thinking maybe
1:03:46it's just a little bit exploitive but
1:03:49then you have to think that these people
1:03:51that go through these horrible
1:03:53murders do deserve to be spoken about
1:03:55and remembered
1:03:56right so he goes on how did this ever
1:03:58happen without anyone catching on
1:04:00i'm not a drinker so i can't recommend a
1:04:03beer but i think dick is resourceful
1:04:05enough
1:04:05in this department please consider this
1:04:07case and otherwise continue on with your
1:04:10eminently listenable podcast well
1:04:13written
1:04:13i enjoy that one good job rob thank you
1:04:16it was good
1:04:17and there isn't let's just say these
1:04:19were his kids
1:04:20not her kids the the common-law wife she
1:04:23was
1:04:24the step-mother type of person something
1:04:26seriously wrong with these people
1:04:29yeah the kids were like three and four
1:04:31years old little boy holy [ __ ]
1:04:32that's horrible and they were tortured
1:04:35poisoned killed i don't think i might
1:04:38not be able to do it i mean i'll look up
1:04:40some more information on it
1:04:41but uh and we'll see okay you know we'll
1:04:44see what there is to it but as far as
1:04:46what happened to those kids i just can't
1:04:48spend too much time thinking about that
1:04:50it's
1:04:50it's horrific it is and those are the
1:04:52kind of people that you
1:04:54really want to be put to death right you
1:04:56can say that
1:04:57the death penalty sounds like not the
1:04:59right thing to do
1:05:00but then when you think of people like
1:05:01this you just want to kill them yourself
1:05:03with your bare hands
1:05:04yes you do yeah okay we'll be off next
1:05:08week but we will be putting out a
1:05:10premium episode in a few days then we'll
1:05:13be back the last week of september
1:05:15with another new episode thanks
1:05:17everybody for your feedback we really
1:05:19appreciate it a lot
1:05:20and of course thank you as always for
1:05:22listening and we'll see you next time
1:05:24at the quiet end we'll be there and
1:05:27we'll save a seat for you
1:05:29great bye-bye bye guys
1:05:38[Music]
1:06:00[Music]
1:06:25you

About this transcript

This page contains the full transcript of Journey to Justice: An Interview with Jeffrey Deskovic by True Crime Brewery, generated from the public captions YouTube serves with the video. The transcript has 12,396 words across 2,053 segments, with the original timestamps preserved so you can click any line to jump to that moment in the embedded player.

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