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Josh Howerton - The War for Christianity | SRS #327 — Transcript

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0:02[music]
0:05Josh Howard, welcome to the show, man.
0:07>> All right. It's an honor, my friend.
0:09>> It's an honor to have you.
0:10>> Yeah, it's an honor.
0:11>> So, yeah, I've been uh
0:14you know, my chief of staff came from
0:15Dallas and uh she kind of put you on my
0:17radar and I was I was watching some of
0:19the stuff like I don't remember how you
0:20popped up, but she had made a suggestion
0:23about you coming on and I was like,
0:25"He's already on the list." [laughter]
0:27I was like, "So,
0:28>> well, dude, I think she's a former Lake
0:30Point member."
0:30>> She is.
0:31>> Yeah, dude.
0:32>> Yeah. So, that was very cool connection,
0:34man. Well, and you know, it's cool to
0:36meet the people you listen. I've been,
0:38you know, I've been watching you for a
0:39minute and I appreciate you.
0:41>> Well, thank you for saying that.
0:42>> Yes, sir.
0:43>> But, um, so yeah, we got a lot of stuff
0:46to talk about today.
0:47>> Amen, man.
0:48>> I'm pumped.
0:48>> I'm in. Hey, before we get Can I give
0:50you something?
0:50>> Yeah.
0:51>> I got to give you a gift,
0:52>> of course.
0:52>> So, uh, I appreciate what you've done
0:55for our country. This [clears throat] is
0:57a big deal to me. It took me a long time
0:59to find this. Here's what this is. You
1:01may have seen this. Have you ever heard
1:02of a a Heart Shield Bible?
1:04>> You ever heard of this?
1:05>> No.
1:06>> This is like This will make my eyes
1:08sweat a little bit. So, here's what this
1:10is. [clears throat] I want you to hold
1:12that.
1:13>> So, that's a 1943 Heart Shield Bible.
1:16And what that is in 1943, uh, President
1:19FDR, he partnered with, I think, the
1:21Gideonss, and they handed out these
1:23little pocket New Testaments to active
1:26World War II soldiers. And bro, what
1:28they did is, here's why that thing, I
1:30don't know if the viewers can see the
1:32front of that thing is plated brass.
1:35And the reason they did that is they
1:37designed it so that it could fit in the
1:38front pocket of of a of active World War
1:41II soldier so that it could stop a
1:43bullet.
1:44>> No way. And dude, um, so that guy,
1:46you'll see it on the inside, the one I
1:48found, that guy, there was a I think an
1:50Air Force colonel that wore that into
1:53active duty.
1:54>> And, uh, Sean, honestly, man, one of the
1:56reasons I said, I don't I don't do this.
1:57I don't travel and I don't travel.
1:59>> I got kids and I'm focused. Uh, one of
2:03the reasons I said yes to this is just
2:05what I see God doing in you and through
2:07you. And uh dude, the the reason that
2:10that thing means so much to me, dude,
2:11that's what that is. That's a prayer
2:13that the that the president wrote for
2:16those soldiers to read that book.
2:18>> Wow.
2:19>> And uh the reason I want you to have
2:22that is uh man, you know, I'm in it with
2:25you. There's that thing that above all,
2:27it would sit right over a soldier's
2:29heart. And there's that thing above all
2:32else, guard your heart, for from it
2:33froze the flows the well wellspring of
2:35life. And how do you guard your heart?
2:38I've hidden your word in my heart that I
2:39might not sin against you. So there you
2:41go, man.
2:41>> Man, thank you. That's really cool.
2:45>> Thank you. Thank you.
2:47>> Wow.
2:48>> I I thought it was pretty cool.
2:50>> Thank you. This is awesome, man.
2:51>> Yes, sir.
2:52>> Thank you.
2:52>> Yes, sir.
2:53>> Beautiful. Beautiful.
2:56[clears throat]
2:56>> Well, I got a present for you, but it's
2:58not that uh [laughter]
3:02>> sentimental. Come on. Get a bag of gummy
3:05bears.
3:05>> I love gummy bears.
3:06>> Full of sugar, red dyes, yellow five,
3:08all the bad But they taste
3:10amazing. So, and they'll probably be
3:12illegal here in a couple months.
3:14>> I mean, is there pot in those? I need to
3:15know right now.
3:16>> No pot.
3:16>> All right. Good.
3:17>> Sorry.
3:17>> I can have it.
3:18>> Sorry about that. But
3:19>> yeah. No, no, that's good, man.
3:21>> But just candy. Just candy.
3:23>> All right. But, uh, let me give you an
3:25introduction here. Pastor Josh Howton,
3:28you're senior pastor of Lake Church in
3:30Dallas, one of the largest churches in
3:32the country. You're known for addressing
3:34difficult is issues at the intersection
3:36of faith, culture, politics, and
3:38apologetics. You're also the host of
3:41life of Live Free Podcast. You're a
3:44husband to your wife, Jana, and the
3:45father of three adopted kids. Welcome to
3:48the show.
3:48>> It's an honor. It's an honor, my friend.
3:50[clears throat]
3:51>> So, before we get started,
3:54you want to pray?
3:54>> I would love to.
3:55>> You want to lead us?
3:56>> Yeah, I would love to, man.
3:57>> All right.
3:59Jesus Christ, thank you for being the
4:01sovereign and loving Lord of all the
4:04universe. And thank you that for from
4:06before the foundations of the world, you
4:09picked this moment for me to have the
4:11honor of talking to Shawn and every man
4:14and woman that'll listen to this thing.
4:16Uh Father, I pray that you would just uh
4:17you'd kiss it from heaven. There' be an
4:19open heavens over the conversation. Um
4:21Lord, you would lead us in paths of
4:23righteousness for your name's sake in a
4:26way that would be a blessing to Shawn,
4:28his family, and everybody that listens.
4:31I pray that in the crucified, risen name
4:33of Jesus Christ. Amen.
4:35>> Amen.
4:36>> Amen. Amen.
4:37>> Thank you.
4:40>> All right. Here we go.
4:41>> Let's go, man.
4:42>> Here we go. So, third generation pastor,
4:44correct?
4:45>> That is correct. And you you were here.
4:48>> I was here. I was here, dude. So my papa
4:51Jerry Howardan, my life hero. Uh he was,
4:55you know, kind of bluecollar Ozark
4:57Mountains kind of kid and grew up became
5:00a pastor. He was a little rural rural
5:02church pastor all over Kentucky,
5:04Missouri, Michigan. I mean, all over the
5:06place. Drove a truck for a little while
5:07and became a pastor. And uh man, I miss
5:12him. One of the best men I've ever met.
5:15And then uh my dad, Rick Howardan,
5:17pastor as well. and uh he started a
5:19church, rub two sticks together, started
5:21a little church here in the Spring Hill,
5:23kind of around this area, the Bridge
5:24Church.
5:25>> Well, yeah, that's like 15 minutes out
5:26there.
5:27>> That's right, man. So, my dad started
5:29that church and then I had uh one of the
5:32greatest honors of my life to step into
5:34my dad's shoes and and pastor that
5:36church for about 10 years and um was
5:38there for about 10 years. Lord did a
5:40really unique thing and then called us
5:42Dallas.
5:43>> Right on. How did you I'm just curious
5:48How did Christ come into your life? I
5:50mean, how did you what what built your
5:53faith? Did you just always have it or
5:56was did something happen or I mean
5:59I'm a hard knocks guy. He had to slap me
6:01around a little bit. He still does it.
6:03I'm going through one right now.
6:05[laughter]
6:05>> But uh but um but uh you know what I
6:09mean? But but I like I I don't I don't
6:11like it in the moment, but it you know
6:14it um it'll 100x my faith, you know what
6:17I mean? Every time it winds up happening
6:19and and to the point where it's not even
6:20faith anymore for me, it's fact.
6:22>> Mhm.
6:22>> And so I'm wondering, you know, did you
6:24just did you always have it cuz you grew
6:26up in it or are there any specific
6:28events that really just hit you like,
6:31okay, all this stuff that we're talking
6:32about, it's real?
6:34>> This is for real. For real,
6:35>> man. Honestly, I'd say both. You know,
6:38I'll just honor my parents. Uh I got I
6:42got [snorts]
6:43uh make my eyes sweat a little bit. I
6:46got I got good parents and they love me.
6:48And uh man, you know, I grew up in the
6:51I'm an '8s baby, but the '90s made me
6:52kind of thing. And you know, growing up
6:55in the '90s, it was kind of like cool to
6:57be a pastor's kid and kind of rebel. And
6:59you know,
7:00>> I didn't understand that at all cuz I
7:02like every second of my life, I love
7:04being Rick Howard's kid, Pastor Rick's
7:07kid. loved every second of it. So
7:09whatever they experience they had, I had
7:11the opposite. So I grew up like my
7:14parents raised me just like the word
7:15says in the fear and admonition of the
7:17Lord. You know, I got a million memories
7:20of mom sitting there and quizzing me on
7:22Bible verses grow, you know, all the
7:24stuff. Uh but I will say there
7:28definitely came moments where it was
7:31like,
7:33so here's how I say it sometimes. like
7:35[clears throat]
7:36what you just said is like man every now
7:40and then you'll go through it a little
7:41bit and uh you know you have those
7:44moments where you know you kind of get
7:46knocked flat on your back but what
7:47you'll notice is whenever you get
7:49knocked flat on your back you're finally
7:51looking in the right direction kind of
7:52thing.
7:52>> Mhm. And you know, when I look back at
7:55my life, there were moments where it was
7:58like, oh, like I'm I'm a I'm a for real
8:01for real sinner and he's a for real for
8:04real savior. And I I'm I need something
8:07I don't got this. I need something a lot
8:08bigger than me. And so, you know, I
8:11think probably around college, you know,
8:13I had had a couple head-on collisions
8:15with my own depravity. And I remember
8:17I'll just Yeah, I haven't talked about
8:19this in a long time. I remember writing
8:21in my journal in college like where you
8:23know dude you probably got the same
8:24stuff. I'm just like just like you that
8:28you send the same dumb sin for the
8:29millionth time. [laughter]
8:32>> And you know
8:32>> thank God I didn't journal back then.
8:34But I didn't go to college but that age.
8:37>> Yeah. [snorts]
8:38Yeah. I I remember I remember journaling
8:41in college and I was reading the Gospels
8:44and you know I think a lot of people
8:45think Christianity is is like a bunch of
8:47good people telling bad people how to be
8:49good. Mhm.
8:50>> And you know, it's like you figure out
8:51real quick that is not what this thing
8:53is. [laughter]
8:54The whole thing is like I'm not good.
8:56It's actually, you know, it's a bunch of
8:58forgiven nobody's trying to tell
8:59everybody about somebody who can save
9:01anybody kind of thing. And I I remember
9:04being in college and sinning the same
9:05dang sin for like a millionth time. And
9:08I remember reading about Jesus hanging
9:10out with prostitutes and tax collectors.
9:13And it was the first time, dude, I
9:15haven't talked about this maybe ever.
9:18[clears throat] It was the It was like
9:19the first time in my life where like it
9:20hit me like, oh, like I fit right
9:22prostitutes and thieves. I fit right in,
9:25you know, and and I remember journaling
9:28and going like, man, it really dawned on
9:30me today that, you know, Jesus didn't
9:33come for good. He came for prostitutes
9:34and and murderers and thieves and and
9:37race traders and and I remember
9:40journaling and today I realize I fit
9:43perfectly into that category.
9:46And I honestly think that's usually the
9:48minute when when somebody meets the real
9:51Jesus
9:52>> because you you gota you got to know
9:54you're a sinner to realize he's he's a
9:56real savior, you know.
9:58>> So I had a I had a bunch of moments like
10:00that.
10:01>> Right on.
10:04When did you know that you were going to
10:06kind of follow in the family footsteps
10:08that you were going to become a pastor?
10:10>> Dude, you know, how long have you been a
10:13pastor? You know, I I started traveling
10:16around and preaching like in college.
10:18Actually, my youth pastor Jeff Carlile,
10:21he stood me up to preach when I was like
10:2216 in the youth group. And I just
10:25honestly, you know, you you've probably
10:27seen the same thing. The difference
10:30between men that grow up and they become
10:33good men and and builders and makers
10:35instead of takers and breakers kind of
10:37thing. It's usually they got other good
10:39men in their life. Like that's literally
10:42the different, you know, and I had a
10:44bunch of good men in my life and Jeff
10:45Crawler was one of my my youth pastor
10:47and uh it was like I was 16 and he stood
10:50me up there and he was like, "Hey man, I
10:51want you to I want you to appreciate
10:53youth group. [laughter] I don't know
10:54what I'm going to do." And you know, I
10:57just explained a verse I'd read. And he
11:00he grabbed me afterwards like, "Hey man,
11:02I want you know like when you talked
11:04everybody everybody listened. There was
11:07like a little heat on that thing when
11:08you did that." And I just people around
11:12me kept saying, "Hey man, we see in high
11:14school the the guys who who maybe
11:17weren't on the same path that I was, you
11:20know, they're a little joke. They called
11:21me Rev, you know, kind of thing. It's
11:23kind of half making fun of me a little
11:24bit maybe, but it's just something
11:26everybody kind of saw in me, you know,
11:28and and then there was I couldn't
11:30imagine doing anything else."
11:32>> How was your first how was it
11:34ministering your first congregation
11:37first time? [laughter]
11:38You know, honestly, dude, not good, you
11:40know. Dude, so I was uh I went up to uh
11:44I went up to uh it was uh Mount
11:46Washington, Kentucky. I was going to
11:47seminary, which for everybody that's
11:49listening, that's like postgrad. That's
11:51like Bible. You getting a theological
11:54degree.
11:55So, I'm up there. I'm Mount Washington,
11:57Kentucky. Little rural First Baptist
11:59Church up there, which sweetest people
12:00ever. Like, best experience ever. You
12:03know, I know some people have bad
12:04experience with churches, whatever that
12:06is. I had all the opposite, you know,
12:08and uh the I was there for like 3 years
12:12and I I grew it from like 150 students
12:16to like 120, you know, [laughter]
12:18and it it honestly it it went okay, but
12:22you know, it's one of those things like
12:24the the Lord was with me and I was
12:27figuring it out and
12:29just like you, you know,
12:30>> stuck with it.
12:31>> Yeah.
12:32>> Right on, man.
12:32>> Yeah, man.
12:33>> Right on. All right, let's get into some
12:35hard stuff. This is a new question. I
12:37just I just started asking I'm going to
12:39ask everybody this question that comes
12:40on that's that's kind of in a position
12:43like yours.
12:46>> Why is Christianity the one religion
12:49that is totally acceptable to disparage?
12:52>> Yeah.
12:53>> All right. Can I give let me give give a
12:56starting point here? Absolutely.
12:57>> All right. I'm going to show you
12:58something and I I [clears throat] know
12:59you've seen it because it's right up
13:01there.
13:03So, [clears throat]
13:05do you remember this little thing? This
13:07This is going to blow your mind. You
13:09remember that little thing?
13:10>> Oh, yeah.
13:10>> All right. So, what that is,
13:12>> we'll put it up on screen.
13:13>> Yeah. So, what that is is that is a
13:16chart of every cross reference uh in the
13:20Bible. So, what I want to talk about, I
13:21I want to give a starting point. The
13:23answer to your question is uh in large
13:25part because that's exactly what the
13:26Bible said was going to happen.
13:28[clears throat] So, here here's why.
13:30Like I'm always going to go Bible, you
13:31know, I'm I'm dumb about a lot of
13:33things. I try I try to I try to love the
13:34word of God. So here's what that is. 16
13:36That is every cross reference in the
13:38Bible where the Bible references other
13:40parts of the Bible. There are 16,791
13:44cross references where parts of the
13:45Bible reference other parts of the
13:46Bible. And when you look at that, dude,
13:48it kind of blows your mind a little bit.
13:50Well, I just want to point this out.
13:52>> Did you say 16,000?
13:54>> 16,791
13:57from what I understand. I thought it was
13:5962,000.
14:00>> It may be 6. Actually, you're right.
14:02Actually, Sean, you're right. I think
14:03it's 67,000.
14:06700.
14:06>> I think it's 60.
14:07>> I was off by an order of magnitude.
14:09>> I think I I do. I think it's 62,000 and
14:12some change.
14:12>> Okay. Okay. It's in the 60,000s,
14:16but when you look at that thing, I mean,
14:18it'll blow your mind a little bit.
14:19>> Uhhuh. And
14:23if you were to see that and one person
14:27wrote a book that did that, that many
14:30cross references and dovetales into
14:32other parts of the word, you would look
14:35at that person and you [clears throat]
14:36would think that is the greatest author
14:39who has ever lived like goat. No one
14:42will opus and masterpiece. Okay.
14:45But that book was not written by one
14:48man. It was written by over 40 men
14:53across 1500 years across three
14:56continents, Asia, Europe, and Africa in
15:01three different languages, Greek,
15:03Hebrew, and Aramaic. It has one unified
15:07story. It has zero contradictions.
15:10Now listen now when I see that like
15:12that'll make my eyes sweat a little bit
15:14>> because there is only one way to explain
15:17that and it's that that book over there
15:20it was written down by men but it was
15:23authored by the word of God by God
15:26himself.
15:27So when you ask that question the
15:31response to the question why is it the
15:32one thing that everybody can disparage?
15:36Well, man, like when we open the word,
15:39what we know is from Genesis 1, 2, and
15:423, we know immediately what Satan does
15:45after the fall of mankind is he begins
15:47to wage war on the offspring that God is
15:50going to use to redeem the world. So,
15:52that's the story line of the entire
15:53Bible. It's word versus world. If you,
15:57you know, if you skip forward all the
15:58way to the end, you go to the book of
15:59Revelation. A lot of people, they get
16:01into Revelation and it's like, you know,
16:03it's they start reading and it's like,
16:05you know, Jesus looks like metal and his
16:07eyes are flames of fire and it's, you
16:09know, three-headed dragons eating babies
16:10and and, you know, I think people start
16:13to go, I I didn't know they dropped acid
16:14in ancient Rome, you know, kind of what
16:16are they doing? What the book of
16:18Revelation is is it's really it's not
16:23a lot of the book of Revelation isn't
16:25revelation about what's going to happen
16:26in the future. It's revelation about
16:29what's been going on behind the scenes
16:31in the spiritual realm throughout all of
16:34human history.
16:36>> That's what a lot of the book of
16:37Revelation is. If you get to Revelation
16:3912, you get this little vision of a
16:41dragon that represents Satan. And what
16:44it says that he does is he wages war
16:47upon the woman, which most Bible
16:49scholars go, man, that that's the
16:50church, the bride of Christ and her
16:52offspring.
16:53So man, if you're going, why is
16:56Christianity the one thing that you can
16:59disparage is because the Bible says the
17:02whole world lies under the power of the
17:04evil one. The Bible actually calls Satan
17:07the little gd of this world.
17:10Actually, if you want want to get this
17:12is kind of a little, it's really
17:13interesting that actually in the
17:15temptation of Jesus, Satan does this
17:18thing where he comes to Jesus and he
17:20goes, "Hey, I'm going to show you all
17:20the kingdoms of the world." And he tells
17:23him, he's like, "Hey, man, if you'll bow
17:26down and worship me, I'll give you all
17:28of these kingdoms." Now, what's really
17:31interesting is Jesus doesn't say,
17:33"They're not yours to give." There's
17:36like this tacit assumption throughout
17:38the entire Bible that Satan is really
17:40over all of the world systems. And
17:43that's why everything in the world
17:45aligns against one thing in particular,
17:49and it's Christianity, Christ, and
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20:29>> In fact, actually, can I go a layer
20:31deeper?
20:31>> Yeah.
20:32>> Okay,
20:32>> keep going. So, dude, I'll give an I
20:34I'll give you an example of this. So, do
20:36you know who Raymond Ibrahim is?
20:39>> I do not.
20:40>> Dude, you need to know who that guy is.
20:42>> Okay.
20:42>> So, Raymond Ibrahim,
20:44>> is he alive?
20:44>> He is. Raymond Ibrahim, he comes from
20:48Egyptian Coptic Christian family. I just
20:50had him on Lifree.
20:53and [clears throat] he's like uh he he
20:56actually got famous around 9/11 because
20:59he's a
21:01doctorate in Arabic. He got a job at the
21:04Library of Congress. So, he's back in
21:06the stacks. This is going somewhere, I
21:08promise. He's back in the stacks. So,
21:10those are the books no one has access
21:12to. and he finds in Arabic transmissions
21:16from Osama bin Laden out to a bunch of,
21:20you know, terror cells or whatever that
21:22have never been translated. And then he
21:25like blows the whistle on, hey dude,
21:27[snorts] here's what this guy is saying.
21:29This is what they're saying on BBC and
21:30CNN
21:32about why they're doing all this stuff.
21:34Here's what Osama bin Laden is actually
21:36saying, and it's, you know, let's kill
21:38the infidels and all stuff. So he blows
21:39the whistle on. That's where where
21:41Raymond Ibrahim comes to fame. So
21:42anyway, he's on the podcast. He's like a
21:44he's a a leading scholar on intersection
21:47of Christianity and Islam. Very
21:49interesting. Okay. So Ibrahim's on the
21:51pod and off air he tells me he's like,
21:55"Hey, [snorts] you know what actually
21:58pushed me to Christianity.
22:00I started studying the world and I
22:02noticed everything aligns against this
22:05one thing." And then he gives dude he
22:07gives this example which I think a lot
22:09of people wonder about this. The example
22:11he gives is like, have you ever noticed
22:14that progressivism and Islam, they
22:17always seem to be on the same team, at
22:18least in America? You kind of seen that?
22:21>> Yeah. It's kind of kind in general kind
22:22of tends to be be a thing, which makes
22:25no sense [snorts] because you kind of
22:28got, hey man, we're over here, you know,
22:30gay rights, women's rights, you know,
22:32freedom of expression, progressive, and
22:34then you kind of got Islam is kind of,
22:36you know, kind of oftentimes the
22:38opposite of those things.
22:41Well, if you start asking the question,
22:43why would this the women's rights people
22:46kind of align with kind of the thing
22:47that at least in many countries, hey
22:49man, they kind of, you know, they'll
22:51they'll do something to a woman that's
22:53not not wearing a a burka, you know,
22:55that kind of, hey man, why why are we
22:57doing, you know, queers for Palestine?
22:59You know, that's kind of like chickens
23:00for KFC. You know, that didn't make
23:02sense. Well, the unifying principle is
23:06the enemy of my enemy is my friend.
23:09anything but Christianity and anyone but
23:12Christ. And Ibraim sees that and he's
23:15like, "Dude, everything's aligned
23:16against one thing.
23:18There must be something to that one
23:20thing." Interesting. You know, do you
23:24know who Eli Crane is?
23:25>> I don't. Eli Crane is a congressman out
23:27of Arizona. He was a Navy Seal. He's a
23:29good friend of mine
23:31>> and [clears throat] um
23:35>> he's a huge fan of yours. He somehow he
23:37he must have saw the post where were
23:39coming on. So, he wanted I wanted to
23:41wait till the end to ask this,
23:43>> but me and Eli bat the Israel topic back
23:47and forth.
23:49>> Yeah.
23:49>> Pretty consistently.
23:51>> Yeah.
23:51>> And uh we just disagree. Uh we have
23:54wildly different ideas of, you know,
23:58what this is and what the relationship
23:59should be and what's going on and and um
24:02but I, you know, I respect Eli. He's a
24:04really good friend of mine. And um so he
24:07wanted me to ask you about Islam and
24:10prophecy.
24:11>> Oh jeez. Okay. All right. Just go with
24:15it. Just go for it.
24:16>> Hit it.
24:16>> All right. You already know if you watch
24:18this, you know we go to some dark dark.
24:21>> Yeah. Yeah. Let's go.
24:22>> Okay.
24:24Well, [clears throat]
24:25quick caveat. I'm just going to start
24:27right here. Uh, I'm a pastor and what my
24:31heart beats for more than anything else
24:33is for everybody everywhere to know
24:35Jesus Christ and to love the father. So
24:38my that's my starting point. So before I
24:40say anything, I want you, Eli, and
24:43anybody else that listens to know um I
24:46love every person that calls themsself a
24:48Muslim and I hate Islam because it
24:51destroys people and eternities. And I
24:54can do both of those things. I can love
24:56a person and I can hate what I believe
24:58is a demonic ideology.
25:00>> So, let me just point some things out.
25:02[clears throat]
25:03>> So, like some things that are
25:04interesting to me and let me give a
25:06quick I want to set this up. So, like
25:08especially you maybe you Sean or maybe
25:10some people that are listening,
25:13you're going to hear some things here in
25:15a minute. You're like, man, there's some
25:17real dark stuff in the world. Like in
25:19fact, I think a lot of the reason that
25:21you're seeing a resurgence of the
25:24purposes of God, a r I I think Sean, I
25:27think a rising hope, I think we got a
25:29chance to see something special, man.
25:31>> I do too.
25:32>> I think we got I think we got a chance
25:34and I'm I'm willing to pour my my life
25:36out for it. I think part of the reason,
25:39dude, is in the era leading up to where
25:42we're at now, and I'm going to get back
25:44to what you just asked. I'm I'm making
25:45my way there is the obviousness of
25:50darkness became so smack you in the face
25:54that people awoke they they awakened to
25:58the reality that there was a
26:00non-ignorable dark force in the world.
26:03>> Mhm.
26:04>> And then dude I think what a lot of
26:06people do especially young men right now
26:09is they're going man if there's a
26:11darkness there must be a light.
26:13>> Mhm. And that light has a name and his
26:16name is Jesus Christ. I honestly think
26:19that's a lot of what's going on. Now,
26:21that dovetales to what you're saying. I
26:23just want to point some things out that
26:25you know, you or anybody else can think
26:26I'm an idiot. That's fine. You know
26:28what, whatever. Let me point some things
26:30out. All right. So, um uh what uh what
26:34Muslims do in general, uh what a lot of
26:36Muslims do is they trace their spiritual
26:38lineage to Ishmael. So, we're going to
26:40do we're going to Bible nerd out for a
26:41second and we're going to go uh we're
26:42going to do some Old Testament theology
26:44and then make our way forward. Okay? So,
26:45we're we're going to do a little Bible
26:47study real quick. So, in the Old
26:49Covenant, God God makes his covenant
26:51with Abram who becomes Abraham. Okay?
26:53And he tells Abraham through you and
26:56your offspring. And it's very
26:57interesting, Sean. This is very
26:58interesting just for I'm I'm a Bible
27:00guy. When it says offspring, it's
27:02singular. So, in other words, you have
27:04you're going to have one future
27:06offspring. And through that one future
27:08offspring, somebody out of your lineage,
27:10Abraham, is going to bless the entire
27:12world. Okay.
27:13>> How do you know it's singular?
27:14>> In the book of Galatians, it
27:16specifically talks about that in the New
27:17Testament, the Apostle Paul calls
27:19attention to the fact that it says
27:22offspring. So Paul is I'm what I'm doing
27:25right now is I'm making the same point
27:26the Apostle Paul makes in the New
27:27Testament. And so it points that out.
27:29It's a singular. Okay. Now, obviously
27:32there's nations that come out of him and
27:34all of that stuff. So, but but there's a
27:36the specific promise is going to find
27:38its termination in one future offspring
27:42that I'll just pull my punch is Jesus
27:44Christ. Okay? So, that that's where we
27:46start. Now, [clears throat]
27:48the promise and the covenant that was
27:50given to Abraham, obviously, he he was
27:52going to have a child. Now, uh the child
27:56uh he has to wait for a long time and
27:58he's waiting around for the promise to
27:59happen. and he takes matters into his
28:01own hands and uh and his wife, this is a
28:03whole deal, his wife Sarah gives him his
28:05servant Hagar and they have essentially
28:08a a covenantally illegitimate child
28:11named Ishmael. Then later he and Sarah
28:14have a child named Isaac. So here's what
28:16you got. What you end up with because of
28:18he and Sarah's disobedience is you have
28:21one covenant,
28:23but you have two sons. And now we got a
28:26problem because now we got two sons.
28:28they're going to end up fighting uh and
28:30all of their offspring are going to end
28:31up fighting uh in the spiritual realm. I
28:34believe it's connected to that over this
28:36one covenant. So then what you have is
28:38you have uh the children of the promise
28:41who who that those are the Jewish people
28:44historically and then you have uh what
28:46Muslims do is they trace their lineage
28:48to Ishmael. So this is what you the
28:50other son
28:50>> the other son. Okay. Okay. So now one
28:53covenant two sons now you got a thing
28:54going on. Okay. You got that thing going
28:56on. Okay. Now, fast forward in Galatians
29:001:8, Paul says this. Um, he says, "But
29:03even if we or an angel from heaven," now
29:06this is really important. I'm going to
29:07give you two verses. We're connect some
29:09dots. He says, "But even if we or an
29:12angel from heaven should appear to you
29:14and preach to you another gospel, let
29:17him be accursed." Bookmark that in your
29:19head. Then you got another Bible verse
29:21in the New Testament that says that what
29:22Satan does is he quote masquerades as an
29:25angel of light. All right. Now, dude,
29:29I'm a I'm a you know, I'm a dumb rural
29:31Kentucky kid. But you start putting some
29:34things together and in the the 600s,
29:36what Muhammad says happens is he Now,
29:38first of all, let me just say, I'm not
29:40like some Islamic scholar. I'm doing
29:4130,000 foot big rocks. What he says
29:44happens is he wanders in a cave and he
29:46essentially does this. He goes, "Man,
29:48man, I was in there and this real weird
29:51thing happened. I was in there and this
29:54angel of light appeared to me and it he
29:58started revealing to me a another way to
30:01God that's different than the one that
30:03we've had. Now dude, all of a sudden I'm
30:05going well that's real interesting
30:07because 600 years before he's doing his
30:10thing, you got a Bible Bible verse
30:11saying what Satan does is he masquerades
30:13an angel of light. And then you have a
30:15spec you have a specific warning that
30:18throughout history that an angel from
30:21heaven may appear and reveal to you
30:23another gospel. Why? Because Jesus came
30:26and he said, "I am the way, the truth,
30:28and the life. And nobody comes to the
30:29father except through me." And dude, I
30:31just want to say this and this gets me a
30:32little trouble. You know, you may have
30:33some experience with this. Every now and
30:35then you'll do something. The internet
30:36will get mad at you. That happens to me.
30:38And uh and you know uh one of the things
30:41that uh pastors don't have to try to be
30:43controversial. They just got to read
30:44Bible verses. And one of the things that
30:47Jesus said that man, people, they just
30:49hate it. But man, I didn't say this.
30:51Jesus said it. And man, I what kind of
30:53I'd be a horror I'd be a liar not to
30:54tell you what Jesus said. And he said he
30:57was the way, the truth, and the life.
30:58And nobody comes to the father, father
31:00except through him. What he didn't say
31:02is, I am a way, a truth, and a life. And
31:04some people come to the father except
31:06through me or also through me. So then
31:08you got that. So you have the birth of
31:10Islam. And it seems to me, man, like
31:13it's the fulfillment of exactly what was
31:16warned against in the scriptures. Now, I
31:18give you I'll give you two other things.
31:19Jesus said, I think it's in the Gospel
31:21of John, he said, "The time will come,"
31:23and he's talking about the end. Okay?
31:27[clears throat] And I'm not a huge end
31:28times guy, but uh he he's talking about
31:30the end. And he says, "The time is
31:32coming when they will kill you and think
31:35they are offering service to God."
31:38Now, um I think what a lot of people
31:40have done in especially in America for
31:42like the last 30, 50 years is a lot of
31:44Christians have been like, "Man, we're
31:45nervous about the rise of secularism and
31:47the rise of atheism and people are just
31:49deconverting and you know, apostatizing
31:51that kind of thing." But dude, honestly,
31:54you take that verse that Jesus said real
31:56clearly. And what Jesus seems to be
31:59saying is it like the final boss, like
32:02when Jesus like right before Jesus
32:04returns, the final boss, it's not going
32:06to be atheism. It's not going to be
32:07secularism.
32:09It's going to be some other religion
32:12that believes that killing infidels is
32:17offering service to God. Seems like
32:19that's one clear uh uh meaning of what
32:22Jesus said. Now, I'll give you one other
32:23one and then I I I'll just point this
32:26out. In the book of Revelation, again,
32:28Revelation is peeling back the curtain
32:30on like [clears throat] man, what's been
32:31going on in the spiritual realm
32:33throughout human history. One of the
32:35things that it says is John gets this
32:38vision of all the martyed saints like
32:42that all that means just Christians. So
32:43all the Christians that were martyed
32:45because uh they refused to not worship
32:48the lamb. They're like we're a l that's
32:50Jesus. We're Jesus people. We're team
32:52Jesus.
32:53And it doesn't just tell us they were
32:55martyed. It tells us specifically how
32:58they were martyed. And it says, "He saw
33:01the souls of those who were beheaded."
33:06Now, dude, again, I always want to take
33:08this with a grain of salt. Like, I'm not
33:10a big like here's all the charts and
33:12here's when Jesus going through all this
33:13stuff. Um, but dude, I do want to have
33:16my eyes open with my Bible in front of
33:17me. And it is interesting to me, man,
33:20that that I'm aware of. There is one
33:23major world religion and one only that
33:26doesn't just specify to sometimes kill
33:29people who have a different faith than
33:31you. It specifies how and the Quran
33:34calls it striking necks is beheading.
33:37So you got that and then I'll do one
33:39last one. It's hard to do from memory
33:41but I'll do my very best
33:44in uh in Islamic esquetology. So that's
33:48what esquetology means. It's two it's
33:51it's a it's two Greek words. Essatan
33:53means last and means study of. So study
33:55the last. Uh in Islamic esquetology like
33:58the end of the world. What it says is
34:01there'll be this figure that rises up
34:03called the madi. M ah di
34:07[clears throat]
34:08and different in the same way that in
34:11Christianity there's like different
34:12sects of Christianity that view end time
34:15stuff differently. And that's like not
34:17my fast ball but you know is what it is.
34:20It's the same thing in Islamic
34:22esquetology. Different Muslims believe
34:24different things. But there's some
34:26really interesting things that they
34:28believe about the Mahi. Uh they believe
34:32that he will rise to power during uh
34:35global tumult. Uh they believe that when
34:38he rises to power, he will unite the
34:40world in a one world Islamic government.
34:43They believe that that government will
34:45be uh headquartered in Jerusalem. Uh
34:48they believe that when he does it, he
34:49will slaughter the Jews. They believe
34:52that he will usher in a seven-year peace
34:53treaty uh in that area. Uh they believe
34:57that he will ride in. They believe
34:58things like this that he will ride in on
35:01a white horse.
35:03Now, dude, I I just want to point this
35:04out. If anybody's listening and like
35:07hair is standing up on the back of your
35:09head and there's little alarm bells
35:10going off, I just want to point this
35:11out.
35:13If a little alarm bells are going off in
35:15your head because you read your Bible
35:16before, that's because a lot of the
35:19aspects of the Islamic Mahi are the
35:23exact descriptions of the New Testament
35:26Antichrist.
35:28So, do do I know that's what what's
35:29going to happen? Nope, I don't. But I do
35:32have my Bible open and I want to be a
35:34guy that's like, "Hey, man. I'm ready. I
35:36got my eyes open. I'm waiting." That's
35:38interesting to me.
35:39>> Interesting. Interesting.
35:42Is Christianity is it is it growing or
35:45is it shrinking?
35:47>> Uh it's globally growing globally
35:50growing if I understand correctly
35:54>> because it seems like I've seen a lot of
35:56charts and I think it's globally I think
35:58it's growing. I think there's a
35:59resurgence happening but um I mean you
36:02see all these college kids getting
36:04baptized and
36:05>> Ros you know what I mean? And I just saw
36:07another one. It was like a couple
36:09thousand people, I think, got baptized
36:11on the beach.
36:12>> Yes, that's my buddy Joey Martin.
36:16>> What do you mean?
36:16>> That's my my p my buddy, Pastor Joby
36:19Martin. His church, that's one church.
36:21>> Oh, really? Oh,
36:23>> one church. Church 11:22. Shout out. Uh,
36:26one church. They baptized I think it was
36:28almost 4,000 people on a beach down
36:29there in Florida. Yeah.
36:31>> Wow. 4,000 people.
36:33>> 4,000 people. I mean, what dude we're
36:35seeing, man, you know, I'm not a super
36:37emotional guy, but if there's one thing
36:39that makes my eyes sweat is is that,
36:42man, we are I'll just say this. So, like
36:47[clears throat] in my lifetime,
36:49Christianity in America has generally
36:51been declining. I'm 43, 1983.
36:55Uh, feels like the tide's turning. And
36:58every pastor I talk to, man, I'm like
37:01every pastor I talk to, it's like more
37:05people getting saved they've ever seen
37:07more people getting baptized they've
37:08ever seen uh church attendance spike
37:11like tide's turning.
37:14>> That's what I feel like. But then I I
37:16see charts and it says, you know, it's a
37:18decline.
37:19>> Yeah.
37:20>> I don't know if that's real. Do you have
37:21any insight on any of that?
37:24>> Well, I'm you know, I'm [snorts] not a
37:25sociologist. What I can say is uh uh
37:29some you know I don't like talking about
37:31stuff that where that I don't know for
37:33sure. What I have been told is that in
37:37places that have generally been
37:38characterized as the west.
37:41Can I ask you a question a second? Am I
37:43allowed to do that?
37:44>> Yeah.
37:44>> All right. In a second I want to ask you
37:46why you think the tide is turning. But
37:48from [clears throat] what I understand
37:50uh uh places that have been generally
37:52characterized as the west. So you're
37:55talking about like uh Eastern Europe and
37:58North America and Canada. From what I
38:01understand in my lifetime, gener uh
38:04Christianity has generally been
38:05declining in the global what's been
38:08called the west. Okay. Uh from what I
38:12understand, Christianity has been uh
38:14exploding in Africa, the global south,
38:19Asia. That's from what from what I
38:22understand. So you're hearing stuff
38:24about like
38:26you know Chinese house church movement
38:28that stuff starts to explode especially
38:30in the last 50 years you know uh I read
38:33something a few years ago and I may get
38:35a detail wrong on this that at current
38:38growth rates of Christianity in China
38:41there will be more Christians in China
38:43in 50 years than Christians in America.
38:46>> Wow.
38:47>> So now listen
38:50wow. So there's stuff like, man, there's
38:53stuff like that that's happening.
38:55>> Well, here's some stats. In 2007, 78% of
38:58US adults identified as Christian. By
39:012023 24, only 62%, a 16 point decline in
39:05just 15 years. Among women, 18 to 29,
39:0943% religiously unaffiliated. In 2025,
39:13up from 29%
39:15in 2013. Churches were losing 1.2 2
39:19million members annually before co
39:22disengagement has accelerated since. For
39:25the first time in in American history,
39:26young people grow up with Christianity
39:29as one option among many. Not the
39:31baseline assumption. So,
39:36you know, I don't I don't I mean I just
39:38but I live in a you know, this area is a
39:40little different than most parts of the
39:42United States. You know, this is this is
39:44Tennessee. We're in the Bible belt. So
39:45he's you everywhere you go the first
39:48question is you know what church do you
39:49go to
39:50>> and uh
39:52>> it's not like that it's not like that
39:54very many other places
39:55>> right
39:55>> but I mean you asked me why do I think
39:57we're seeing a resurgence I think we're
39:59seeing a resurgence because I mean I
40:01agree with you the darkness I also think
40:04that nothing makes sense I I think I
40:06think the search for I mean there has
40:09never been more distrust in in US
40:13institutions world institutions ions,
40:15our government. Um,
40:19we've been lied to a lot by
40:23pretty much both sides of the political
40:25spectrum and I I think people are
40:27looking for something that's concrete
40:30>> and they're finding it in the word.
40:32>> I agree.
40:33>> You know, I think I think it's it's that
40:35basic. I mean, we can't even figure out
40:39what gender people are anymore.
40:42We can't.
40:44Everything has turned out to be a lie.
40:48>> These wars, lies, past wars, lies.
40:53Government corruption, lies. Does it get
40:55fixed? No. It continues on, you know,
40:58and and
41:01there's just nothing to really ground
41:02yourself in anymore anywhere except the
41:05word. That's right. That's right, Sean.
41:08That's right, Sean. Man, I I think
41:11that's, you know, maybe it's a good
41:12thing all this shit's happening.
41:15>> There's a verse in there's a verse in
41:17Hebrews 12 that says what God does is uh
41:22he shakes the things that can be shaken
41:25so that only the things that cannot be
41:28shaken remain.
41:30And I think throughout human history,
41:33the Lord does that
41:36where he just decides like, "Hey man, I
41:38got to almost like I got to flip I got
41:41to flip the monopoly board real quick."
41:42>> Uhhuh.
41:43>> So that you guys see like, "Hey man,
41:46stock markets and institutions and ideas
41:48and ideologies, they're going to come
41:50and go. Jesus Christ is the same
41:53yesterday, today, and forever."
41:56I also think I think I think what you
42:00said like our our church, you know, is
42:02is especially it's reaching, you know, a
42:04bunch of tons of young men. It's young
42:06dudes walking in with families.
42:09[clears throat]
42:10I think what we said earlier like that's
42:12a little thing that's like a little bit
42:14of my theory is that uh I think Satan is
42:17so real and so evil. You know, it's like
42:21that thing like the enemy comes to
42:23steal, kill, and destroy, but I have I
42:25have come that you might have life and
42:26have it the full. And I think he's so
42:29full of evil and hate that in every
42:32generation when he gets some momentum on
42:34the field, there's that thing I said
42:36earlier, the devil always overplays his
42:37hand. And I think a little bit of what
42:40happened in the last like 15 years, it's
42:42like I think you nailed it. Like you
42:44make good theologian over there, Sean
42:45Ryan. I think what he did is we got to
42:48the spot where people are looking around
42:50and they're honestly like like just I'm
42:53just like normal normal guys. They're
42:55looking around and they're kind of going
42:56like man like who's going to tell my son
42:59he can't be a chick
43:02who who you know who's going to you know
43:04who you going is that that kind of
43:06stuff. And honestly you got to the spot
43:08where there wasn't many places in our
43:10culture left besides the church of Jesus
43:14Christ. Even a lot of churches are
43:15putting that out.
43:17>> Yeah. I I don't like calling I don't
43:19like
43:19>> Probably not in Texas.
43:20>> Yeah. Yeah, there are.
43:22>> You can go to the Northeast and you can
43:23see you can see it. You know,
43:25everybody's welcome. Everybody is
43:27welcome. Why do you have to say it like
43:29that? We know everybody's welcome.
43:31>> That's right, man.
43:32>> You know, that's right. Yeah.
43:33>> Um
43:34>> I would not call those churches, but I
43:36understand what you mean.
43:38I think another thing too, you know, is
43:40and I'm not I'm not I'm not trying to
43:43get political here, but it just is what
43:44it is. I mean, I think that you know,
43:46we've seen and I'm guilty of it. You're
43:49probably guilty. I'm sure everybody's
43:51guilty of this at some point, but you
43:53know, you you you know,
43:56we've just become so tribalized here and
43:59we've put our faith in in men, in human
44:02beings.
44:03And you know, you go on one side of the
44:06aisle and it's this guy's going to save
44:08the country and D.
44:1190% of it was You
44:13know, you go to the other side of the
44:14aisle, same thing. And so you got these
44:16two groups that were both
44:19really I mean the majority the
44:21statistics aren't lying. You know, the
44:22the majority of both parties have been
44:26let down by the people that they stood
44:29behind and propped up. And it's it's
44:32disheartening and and you can see what's
44:35happening and what's happened and it
44:38doesn't align with with with what people
44:41want. You know, there's some kind of
44:43something's going on in there. I mean, I
44:45think there probably always has been.
44:46You know, it's just the limelight's kind
44:48of
44:49>> on these younger generations are a lot
44:53more skeptical than we ever were in the
44:55in the and the people that poor us. Mhm.
44:57>> And so
44:59when you see how bad it actually is, I
45:01mean, where do you There's nowhere else
45:04to go.
45:05>> Mhm.
45:06Mhm. You know, it's funny. It's like,
45:09man, I got a lot of thoughts on what you
45:10just said is I think you're on to
45:12something. There's a reason the word
45:15says trust not in princes.
45:20You know, there's like some things that
45:21I can hope that a human leader will do,
45:23you know, but at the end of the day, you
45:26know, I'm not going to trust a king. I I
45:28I really got to put something in in a
45:30King of Kings.
45:31>> Mhm.
45:32>> You know,
45:34uh
45:35Yeah. Yeah. You know, your thing of like
45:40at the end of the day, where are you
45:43going to go? I I think I think that's
45:45what people, you know, what that here
45:47what it reminds me of. I I I love know
45:49how this kind of lands on you is you
45:52know parable of the prodigal son and you
45:54you got the you know you got the kid who
45:57you you know great great dad the dad
45:59represents God and he he runs away and
46:01he spends all his money on parties and
46:04strippers and alcohol and you know
46:07whatever.
46:08And then if you read that, there's this
46:11little verse and everybody skips the
46:12verse that I think is most important
46:15where he gets to this spot where he
46:16spends all the money and everything's
46:18everything that he thought was going to
46:19make him happy and it it just didn't.
46:23And so he uh he's out of money and he's
46:26he's in pig slop. He's feeding pigs,
46:28which obviously for a first century
46:30Jewish guy is like a little no no. And
46:34then there's one little verse that says
46:36when he was feeding the pigs, it says,
46:38"And then he came to his senses and he
46:42started running back to the father." And
46:44you know, a [clears throat] little bit,
46:45man, I I feel like, you know, we got a
46:47bit of a prodigal nation. [laughter]
46:50It's like, and a little bit you're
46:52saying, "Where am I going to go?" I
46:53think that's what happened to the kid in
46:54the story is he woke up one day. He's
46:57like, "Where am I going to go?" And
46:58honestly, man, he went, "Oh, man.
47:00Everything else didn't work, but I know
47:03I can go home to dad.
47:05And I think a little bit in our country,
47:08I think everybody's going, "Man, we we
47:09honestly do. We tried everything else
47:11and it didn't work."
47:13And I think there's a little bit of
47:14people that's going, "You know what I
47:16can do? I wonder if I could go home to
47:19my heavenly father."
47:20>> Mhm.
47:21>> I think that's a little bit what's
47:22happening.
47:23>> I think so, too. I think so, too.
47:27[clears throat]
47:28Let's talk about forgiveness.
47:30All right. I'd love to.
47:34>> How do we forgive? Here's a question for
47:36you.
47:39>> Justice and forgiveness.
47:42>> Yes. Not at odds.
47:44>> They're not at odds.
47:46>> Uh I know. Yeah. No. How can you
47:50[clears throat]
47:51want justice
47:54and still be able to forgive?
47:56>> Yeah. All right.
47:59Well, [clears throat]
48:01so you know this, let me just do a few
48:03things here. Uh, yes. Yeah.
48:09So, a few things.
48:12One, let me just get one thing out of
48:14the way because what I don't want
48:15somebody to think if they hear what I'm
48:17about to say and they're like, man,
48:19somebody abused me or like, you know,
48:21somebody committed a crime against me.
48:23Somebody raped my daughter or whatever
48:24it is. and when they hear what I'm about
48:26to say, they think, "Oh, because I
48:28forgave them, I don't need to, you know,
48:29I don't need to call the authorities."
48:31That's not true. Um, justice and
48:34forgiveness, I don't got to reconcile
48:36them because I don't reconcile friends.
48:38In fact, what I'll get to in a second is
48:40that actually the foundation of for of
48:42true forgiveness.
48:44You know, Sean, you probably figure this
48:46out. you know, some things that you've
48:48been through in your life.
48:50Nobody makes it
48:52unless they learn to really and deeply
48:55forgive. Dude, they just don't make it,
48:57man. I just I've seen a lot of things
49:00that pastor. One thing I can make you
49:02promise, nobody makes it that doesn't
49:06learn to forgive.
49:08So, let me just get this one thing out
49:09of the way.
49:09>> What do you mean by that? Nobody makes
49:10it.
49:10>> So, dude, what I mean is, man, there's
49:14hardly anything that'll mess you up.
49:16more than not than clinging on to. So
49:19there's a verse in Hebrews. It talks
49:21about a root of bitterness. Hey, you
49:23make sure that a root of bitterness
49:25doesn't spring up in you. The reason it
49:28calls it a root is because roots always
49:30grow up into fruits, right? So [snorts]
49:33dude, what I've seen like let me just
49:37Okay, let me let me do it like this.
49:40Um [clears throat]
49:45if uh if heaven is the place where
49:47everybody's forgiven and hell is the
49:50place where nobody's forgiven, uh when
49:52we forgive, we pull heaven down into our
49:55lives. Uh and when we choose not to
49:58forgive, we pull hell up into our lives.
50:01Now, you know what I want to point out
50:03is there's this really weird connection
50:06in the Bible between satanic and demonic
50:09activity and unforgiveness. I'll just
50:11give you a couple little examples. Um,
50:14so first of all, Jesus calls Satan uh be
50:17elabub. What that literally means, it
50:20literally translates to um lord of the
50:23flies. And the implication is like, man,
50:25if you get like a deep wound, like a a
50:28flesh wound, what flies do is they get
50:30in there and they infest the wound and
50:33then something that hurts you, well now
50:35all of a sudden it becomes fatal because
50:38they get up there and they infest the
50:39wound. it. And so when Jesus calls Satan
50:42be elabub, what he's saying is, "Hey
50:43man, every wound you got, if you don't
50:45by the power of Jesus Christ, his blood,
50:47and forgiveness, close that wound, that
50:50is a wide open pathway for Satan's work
50:53in your life." Um, I'll give you another
50:55one. Um, in the book of Ephesians, it
50:57says, um, hey, don't let the sun go down
50:59on your anger. Why? Because I don't want
51:02you to give any opportunity to the
51:04devil. Uh, the book of James, it does
51:07the same thing. this weird connection
51:08between demonic activity and
51:10unforgiveness. It says that bitter
51:12people, it says bitterness is quote
51:15earthly, unspiritual demonic.
51:19So, dude, a lot of people miss that.
51:20That there's like a really powerful
51:24connection in the Bible.
51:25>> Can you say that again? Unforgiveness
51:27>> is earthly, unspiritual, demonic.
51:31All right. So, they miss it. They do
51:34that. Apparently, there is some in the
51:36supernatural realm, the spiritual realm.
51:38There's a way that unforgiveness, it's
51:40like a portal like straight in your soul
51:43for Satan and demons. I don't understand
51:45how that works. I just know that it
51:47works
51:47>> to get in your life. And one thing that
51:49it'll do, man, is like, you know, I'm 43
51:53and my life goal, I love being a pastor.
51:56I like teaching people the Bible. All
51:58that's awesome, man. My life goal is to
52:01finish my race having been faithful to
52:04Jesus. I don't I don't want to be one of
52:06those pastors that somebody tells a
52:09story about someday. Remember what that
52:11guy did? You know, I want to finish
52:12well. I want to be faithful to my wife.
52:15Uh I I want to sit in a rocking chair uh
52:19next to Jana, old wrinkly, holding her
52:21hand, watching her great grandkids play
52:23around in the backyard. And they love us
52:24and they love Jesus.
52:26So, one of the questions I ask myself
52:28the most as I get, you know, I'm get get
52:30a little older every year, you know, is
52:33if you watch people, there's some people
52:35who they get older and the older they
52:37get, the more cynical they get and angry
52:40they get and they just get a little
52:41crusty.
52:42And then I'll see some other people who
52:44it's like, man, is the older that guy
52:46gets,
52:48he just a little little more joyful, a
52:50little more little more soft in the
52:52right ways and not the wrong ways, you
52:53know? Just a little happier, you I don't
52:55know. And man, uh, when I meet people
52:59who are the second one, you know, you
53:02ask me a question, you've started to ask
53:03everybody. When I meet people whose age
53:05starts with like a 6, seven, 8, nine,
53:08and they're just like old and happy and
53:10they got a joyful heart, I always tell
53:12them, "Hey, it seems like people end up
53:14this way or this way. What's the
53:15difference?" Here's what I think the
53:17difference is. One person, they cleaned
53:20out all that junk in their heart
53:22throughout their entire life with
53:24forgiveness.
53:25and one of them didn't.
53:27And over the years, they just almost
53:29become like just real slowly, man. It's
53:31real slow. In fact, if you'll let me
53:33Bible nerd out, you on a little thing.
53:35When you read in when you read in the
53:38Gospels and it talks about people being
53:39quote demonpossessed,
53:41that's a bit of an inelegant translation
53:44of what that is. It's literally it's one
53:46Greek word. We make it two English
53:48words. It's one Greek word. The word is
53:49demonized. So, kind of like we say
53:51fossilized, demonized. Like in the same
53:54way that a fossil, it started out as
53:56this, but then very very very slowly
54:00over time, it was [clears throat] this
54:03and now it's this.
54:05Honestly, man, a lot of times that's how
54:07like demonic activity works in people's
54:09lives is, hey, it's slow, it's
54:11imperceptible,
54:13gets up there, maybe in a wound,
54:15something like that. And how how' that
54:17guy end up old, angry, cynical, crusty,
54:21there's like no love in his heart. It's
54:22all anger, you know. Oh man, just very
54:26very very slowly.
54:30He didn't learn to clean it out with
54:32forgiveness, which brings me back to the
54:35beginning, demonic activity and
54:36unforgiveness. If hell is a place where
54:39nobody's forgiven and heaven is a place
54:41where everybody's forgiven, every time
54:43we learn to forgive, Sean, you know, you
54:46pull heaven down into your life. Every
54:49time you choose not to, you pull hell
54:50up. That's a uh I don't think that's a
54:54question you ask me.
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57:00I've been thinking about this for a
57:02couple years pretty hard about
57:03forgiveness and I I think it's more of a
57:05uh
57:11for lack of a a better term almost like
57:13it's kind of a selfish thing to do
57:16because it's really it you know what
57:18I've figured out is it's it's it is it's
57:22for yourself you know which is what
57:24you're saying I mean you're healing
57:26healing wounds by forgiving thing
57:32and the more I do it, the more I figure
57:34it out, the the better I feel because
57:36you are letting go of
57:38>> That's right. And uh it doesn't, you
57:40know, it doesn't mean you have to,
57:42>> you know, be around this person, pray.
57:45>> That's right.
57:46>> You know, praise him,
57:49talk about them. But I mean, you It's
57:51just It's just kind of like letting it
57:53go.
57:54>> Am I wrong about that,
57:55>> bro? You're You're dead on, man. So man
57:58the p like if I'm
58:00>> self-cleansing process
58:02>> 100% man
58:03>> it's really hard to do [laughter]
58:06>> but in some circumstances but people who
58:10really haven't been through something
58:12they don't realize this you probably do
58:14realize this I think very frequently the
58:18hardest thing a man ever has to do in
58:19his entire life is forgive somebody very
58:22frequently. Now, when you say that,
58:25honestly, man, it's like there like
58:29it's like you're saying Bible verses and
58:30you may not even know it, you know? It's
58:33like, so in [clears throat] Matthew 18,
58:35you're talking about, man, it honestly
58:36feels selfish. Feels like it's for me.
58:38Yeah. You know, like there there's like
58:41there's a reason we called the podcast
58:42the Live Free podcast. Live as people
58:44who are free only. Do not use your
58:46freedom as a cover up for evil. It's
58:48like [clears throat]
58:50so in Matthew 18 Jesus tells this
58:53parable and uh he I'm a you know 21st
58:56century I'll do my best is he tells this
58:59parable about a guy who like owes a
59:02money lender a bank and it says like
59:0610,000 talents or something like that
59:08but it it's essentially a word that's
59:11like this guy owed this guy the net
59:13worth of Elon Musk like that's what it's
59:15implying he'll never he'll literally
59:17never be able to repay it. And the guy's
59:20like, "Hey man, your debt's due." And he
59:21runs up and he falls on his knees and he
59:23begs and he's like, "Man, would you
59:24please please forgive me?" And the guy,
59:27it says, out of out of the kindness of
59:29his heart, he forgives him. But then
59:31that guy, he turns around and he finds
59:34somebody and all 21st century it, he
59:36finds somebody that owes him, you know,
59:37like the cost of a postage stamp. And in
59:41Jesus parable, he like choke slams the
59:43guy for real. He like starts laying
59:45hands on him and he tells the guy like,
59:48you know, pay me back everything you owe
59:50me and you know, I'm going to put you in
59:52prison. You're not going to get out till
59:53you you pay the last penny. And
59:55honestly, man, I'm skipping ahead a
59:57little bit. Somebody may hear that and
59:58be like, well, how could the guy that
1:00:00was forgiven the net worth of Elon Musk
1:00:04turn around and exact revenge on the
1:00:06cost of a postage stamp? Who would do
1:00:08that? And Jesus answer is, you would.
1:00:11[laughter]
1:00:12Jesus answer is, "Hey man, I'm cutting
1:00:14to the chase a little bit." Is the basis
1:00:17for us becoming forgiving people is
1:00:19understanding I have been forgiven by
1:00:22God more than he will ever ask me to
1:00:24forgive anybody else.
1:00:27>> Like he forgave me the net worth of Elon
1:00:29Musk and every time I hold a grudge
1:00:33against somebody, I'm like making them
1:00:36pay for the postage stamp.
1:00:38>> Mhm. Now, what's interesting about that
1:00:40parable, though, let's take it back to
1:00:42where you started, is you're like, man,
1:00:45it kind of felt like it's it's selfish.
1:00:48In the parable,
1:00:50uh uh when the guy is not forgiven,
1:00:54what he is is it it says that he's put
1:00:56in prison. And the implication, Bible
1:00:59scholars think what Jesus is saying is
1:01:01he's saying, "Hey, man, do you know what
1:01:02unforgiveness is like? It's like a
1:01:04prison. And do you know who's in the
1:01:07prison? You are.
1:01:10And you probably noticed this, man. The
1:01:13the people who don't learn to forgive,
1:01:16what they do is honestly they get stuck
1:01:18in time and they spend the rest of their
1:01:21life responding to something that
1:01:23happened ages ago.
1:01:26>> And they live the rest of their life out
1:01:28of that one event.
1:01:30>> Yeah. Well, that becomes a prison. I
1:01:33mean, I think there are definitely
1:01:34different degrees of
1:01:37or maybe levels of forgiveness, you
1:01:39know? I mean, forgetting forgiving
1:01:41somebody for, I don't know, stealing a
1:01:44water bottle out of your refrigerator is
1:01:46a little bit different from forgiving
1:01:47somebody that raped you your entire
1:01:50childhood, you know, and so it's
1:01:52different.
1:01:53>> You know, it's it's it's
1:01:57some sometimes it's more challenging
1:01:59than others. And and you know, so how do
1:02:02you do it, you know?
1:02:03>> Mhm.
1:02:03>> How do you do it? How do you do it when
1:02:08>> Yes. Yeah.
1:02:10>> I mean, you're you're a popular guy.
1:02:12You're
1:02:13>> borderline celebrity.
1:02:15People are using
1:02:16>> not celebrity. I always like to get it.
1:02:18>> People are using you. People will abuse
1:02:21what you can what you what you have, you
1:02:24know, and and the same with me.
1:02:28And I mean, it just is what it is, you
1:02:30know. There's no getting around that.
1:02:32>> I've seen people do that to you.
1:02:33>> So,
1:02:36you can forgive them.
1:02:37>> Mhm.
1:02:38>> And I have forgiven them.
1:02:40>> You probably have, too. But then it
1:02:42keeps happening.
1:02:43>> It does by the same people.
1:02:46>> Yeah.
1:02:47>> And every time it happens,
1:02:50>> it's a little fire comes up, you know,
1:02:51and it's you get pissed.
1:02:53>> Mhm. And then you start thinking about
1:02:56things you probably shouldn't be
1:02:57thinking about.
1:02:58>> Yeah.
1:02:59>> And so my question is is that is that is
1:03:03that
1:03:05forgiveness? Did I really forgive him
1:03:07through for the original thing?
1:03:09>> Mhm.
1:03:09>> And [clears throat] I've distanced
1:03:10myself and I've I've come to peace with
1:03:12it, but then it happens again.
1:03:13>> Yeah.
1:03:14>> And then it happens again and you have
1:03:15no control over it happening.
1:03:19>> No, you do not.
1:03:19>> So how do you deal with that? How do you
1:03:21deal with that with forgiveness?
1:03:23>> Yeah.
1:03:24>> Something I personally struggle with.
1:03:26>> Welcome to team human, you know.
1:03:28[laughter]
1:03:30It's like,
1:03:30>> yeah. Hey. Hey, brother. Me I can I just
1:03:33get this on the table. Me, too.
1:03:35>> Mhm.
1:03:36>> I just like I just want to be super
1:03:37honest, man. I I need the same grace I
1:03:40preach every week. Me, too. In fact, you
1:03:43know, there's no reason for me to go
1:03:44into it on, you know, here. That is
1:03:47that's one of the hardest most
1:03:48consistent fights in my life. You know
1:03:50it is. So let me just you know let me
1:03:53say a few things.
1:03:55Actually can I can I tell you a story
1:03:57about what it looks like? Let me start
1:03:59here and then back up answer.
1:04:02So every now and then you know and you
1:04:05know when I became a pastor I knew what
1:04:06I was signing up for you know uh so
1:04:10every now and then I'll say something
1:04:11and you know the internet will get mad
1:04:12at me. [laughter]
1:04:14that
1:04:14that happened. One of the first times
1:04:17that happened to me, dude, I didn't know
1:04:18was what was going on. And yeah,
1:04:21honestly, the first thing you probably
1:04:22you probably remember the first one of
1:04:24the first times happened to you. The
1:04:25first time that happens to you, it's
1:04:27pretty disorienting. You know, I was a
1:04:30young pastor and uh man, you know, I
1:04:33remember I was taking a long walk and I
1:04:35remember thinking like, man, is my maybe
1:04:36I wonder if my ministry is over. Like I
1:04:38was getting cr I was uh I won't go into
1:04:40it. I was getting crushed and um
1:04:42[clears throat]
1:04:43and I I came home and I was like, "Man,
1:04:46I wonder if my ministry is over and I I
1:04:48honestly wonder if I've ruined
1:04:49everything and man, how how am I going
1:04:52to provide for my family?" Yeah. Kind of
1:04:53thing. And uh
1:04:56dude, I I walked in the door and uh I
1:04:59smelled I smelled something. And as soon
1:05:02as I walked in the garage door, my wife
1:05:04Jana was there with my three little
1:05:06adopted kids. Uh, and they all yelled at
1:05:09the same time, "Welcome home, Dad."
1:05:15And um, and they they, you know, they
1:05:17brought me in to the kitchen and Jana
1:05:20had all the like she'd cleaned up
1:05:22everything. It looked spotless in there
1:05:24and she gotten these candles out and she
1:05:26lit them on the table and uh, she had
1:05:28cooked like my favorite my favorite
1:05:30meal. It like takes a long time to make,
1:05:32my little favorite meal. And [snorts] I
1:05:34was like, "Babe, what is going on?"
1:05:37And she said um she quoted a verse from
1:05:41the sermon on the mount.
1:05:43She said Jesus said Josh uh blessed are
1:05:47you when people revile you, insult you,
1:05:51slander you, and falsely say all kinds
1:05:54of evil against you falsely on my
1:05:55account. Rejoice and be glad, for great
1:05:58will be your reward in the kingdom of
1:06:00heaven. And then she said, "So tonight
1:06:02we feast
1:06:05[snorts] and uh we prayed. Uh Jana made
1:06:08me
1:06:10we prayed for some of the people who,
1:06:12you know, they were just, you know,
1:06:14teeing off, you know.
1:06:17Can I just say something to you? Without
1:06:19Jesus, there is a zero I'm just telling
1:06:22you right now, dude. A 0% chance that we
1:06:25can be like that.
1:06:27So you ask the question, how do you do
1:06:30it? And man, you know, this is not you,
1:06:34but if somebody's listening and and you
1:06:36don't you don't know Jesus, I'll be
1:06:38honest, man, I don't even know what to
1:06:40tell you. I I really don't. I I don't
1:06:42know what to tell you. uh because if I
1:06:47did not believe
1:06:49that ev two things that every single sin
1:06:54will be fully recompensed for either and
1:06:59I'm skipping ahead either uh that person
1:07:02that committed that sin against me will
1:07:05become a Christian and at that point
1:07:08their sin was paid for by Jesus dying on
1:07:10the cross a gruesome horrific death.
1:07:13>> Mhm. or they won't become a Christian.
1:07:15And I'm going to say something really
1:07:16straightforward and I'm not trying to be
1:07:18a jerk. This is just like this is just
1:07:20Bible. Or they won't be become a
1:07:23Christian. They'll die and they'll go to
1:07:24hell and they'll pay for that sin
1:07:26forever.
1:07:28One way or the other, that sin's getting
1:07:30paid for. If I didn't believe that, man,
1:07:33in addition to the second thing, the
1:07:35reality that I know, dude, I know down
1:07:37to the deep the deepest parts of my
1:07:39bones, I know I've been forgiven more
1:07:42than the Lord's ever going to ask me to
1:07:43forgive anybody else. If I didn't
1:07:45believe that, I don't know what the heck
1:07:46I do.
1:07:47>> Mhm. I don't know what to do.
1:07:50So, like, I'll give you, you know, this
1:07:53like this honestly deserves a lot more
1:07:56time, but if somebody's like, "How do
1:07:57you do it, man?" I'll give you a
1:07:58quickie. Here's a quickie. We don't need
1:08:00a quickie.
1:08:01>> All right.
1:08:01>> We need We need the We need the real
1:08:03deal.
1:08:03>> All right.
1:08:05>> Like here's an example. You know, I I I
1:08:08can't stand being used. I don't like
1:08:10being used. Tried the church thing. I
1:08:14felt like that was getting ready to
1:08:15start happening. Then we do a Bible
1:08:18study. Couple families cuz I I
1:08:23in privacy, you know, we wanted in
1:08:25privacy
1:08:27things start getting leaked.
1:08:30personal things.
1:08:33I call a lot of out on the show. A
1:08:35lot of evil pisses a lot of people off.
1:08:39Pisses evil off. Had to hire security.
1:08:42I've had to double that security. I
1:08:43haven't had to triple that security.
1:08:46I've had to move. Now I have to move
1:08:49into a gated community because people
1:08:52can't shut their mouth and stop leaking
1:08:55>> Mhm.
1:08:55>> And every time it happens, I forgive
1:08:57them. I'll never do that Bible study
1:08:59ever again.
1:09:00>> Ever again.
1:09:02>> Because of that,
1:09:04>> it put my family at danger.
1:09:06>> It continues to put my family at danger.
1:09:09>> Mhm.
1:09:09>> But they get something out of it.
1:09:11Leaking personal about my personal
1:09:14life and my personal family.
1:09:15>> Mhm.
1:09:17>> When the whole thing was set up for
1:09:18discretion.
1:09:19>> Mhm.
1:09:20>> How do you forgive that?
1:09:22>> Mhm.
1:09:24>> Hey, first of all, man, you know I'm a
1:09:26nobody. I'm sorry.
1:09:28>> Hey, it's I mean it is what it is.
1:09:30People are gonna people.
1:09:31>> Yeah. [laughter]
1:09:34>> That's a good way to say that,
1:09:35>> but people are gonna people,
1:09:37>> you know, but how do you you know what I
1:09:38mean? How do you forgive that?
1:09:39>> Yeah.
1:09:40>> You try to move on, but it just keeps
1:09:42happening.
1:09:43>> Yeah, dude.
1:09:43>> And that's just one of a hundred
1:09:45examples. And I'm sure everybody's
1:09:47dealing with like this. You know,
1:09:49one way or another, the thing that keeps
1:09:51happening.
1:09:51>> Literally everybody. There's a few
1:09:52things when you preach on them, you
1:09:54know, every single time it's going to,
1:09:56you know, whatever you want to, you
1:09:57know, people are going to talk about it.
1:09:59They love they they need it. The view
1:10:00counts are like it connects. Forgiveness
1:10:03100% hit rate. 100% [snorts] hit rate
1:10:05because of what you just said. So, man,
1:10:08let me say a few things. [clears throat]
1:10:11Um,
1:10:13number one, the ch if somebody's going
1:10:15to sit down and I'll just give listeners
1:10:17homework. If you're like, "Hey man, what
1:10:18do I do? This thing happened to me. What
1:10:20do I do?" What you need to start doing
1:10:22is study Matthew chapter 18. Matthew 18
1:10:26is where Jesus starts walking through
1:10:28Jesus essentially does a Bible study on
1:10:31what to do when your brother sins
1:10:33against you. Okay, so there's a few
1:10:36things I'll just I'm going to rapid fire
1:10:38these and and just you know do my best
1:10:40here. He starts the passage saying if
1:10:42your brother sins against you, there's a
1:10:44few things there. Number one, if you
1:10:46need to make sure, did somebody actually
1:10:48sin against me or was it honestly was I
1:10:50just offended? Because, and I'm not
1:10:52talking about you, by the way. This
1:10:53these are just generalities. If your
1:10:54brother sins against you, the first
1:10:56thing I got to figure out is if did they
1:10:58really sin against me? Is like an actual
1:11:00Bible sin that that occurred, you know,
1:11:03or honestly, man, am I am I just being a
1:11:05little sensitive? It's really just my
1:11:07feelings. If your brother sins against
1:11:08you, number two, it says, if your
1:11:10brother sins against you, the second
1:11:12question I got to ask is, man,
1:11:14[clears throat] is this person a brother
1:11:15in Christ? Like, I'm just telling you
1:11:17how I'm going to pastor somebody through
1:11:18it. Is this person a brother in Christ?
1:11:20Okay? [snorts] Cuz if not, man, me
1:11:22having a conversation about this
1:11:24forgiveness happening, that's really not
1:11:26the conversation I need to be happening.
1:11:27I need to be having a conversation about
1:11:29this like you and Jesus, man. Like you,
1:11:31you'all got to get good, you know? So if
1:11:33your brother if your brother sins
1:11:35against you, okay, was it against me?
1:11:37Let me making sure this thing. What I
1:11:39don't need to do is take up somebody
1:11:41else's offense and then I'm angry on
1:11:44behalf of somebody else. Like we call
1:11:45that Twitter, you know, what are you
1:11:46going to do? So then it says, well, the
1:11:49next thing you do is it says go and show
1:11:50him his fault. You know, hey, I'm going
1:11:51to go talk to you, man. Manto man, I'm
1:11:53just going to talk to you. Here's what
1:11:54you did. Okay, now you do all this
1:11:56stuff. You kind of walk through that
1:11:57process. If that doesn't work, then it
1:11:59says what Jesus says is if that doesn't
1:12:01work, then take two or three others, you
1:12:03know, let me take a few other brothers.
1:12:05Like, hey man, would y'all come with me?
1:12:07We all We all love each other. We all
1:12:09love Jesus. This is our little band of
1:12:10brothers. Let let's talk about this
1:12:12thing together with a open Bible and
1:12:13open hearts. See if we can figure this
1:12:15thing out and reconcile. Let me pause
1:12:17and say this. There is a [clears throat]
1:12:18difference between forgiveness and
1:12:20reconciliation.
1:12:21Forgiveness takes one person and it's
1:12:24always possible. Reconciliation takes
1:12:27two people and it's not always possible.
1:12:30Forgiveness can like literally every
1:12:32time I can forgive anybody of anything
1:12:35because honestly dude that forgiveness I
1:12:38have just to put it in a straightforward
1:12:40way I do not have a right
1:12:43not to forgive somebody who sins against
1:12:45me because Jesus paid the penalty for
1:12:47that sin and he has commanded me to
1:12:51forgive everyone who sins against me. So
1:12:53I wish it were different sometimes. I'm
1:12:55not allowed. Takes one. Okay. But
1:12:58reconciliation takes two people. Takes
1:13:01two. You got to want to reconcile. They
1:13:04got to want to reconcile. And they got
1:13:05to be willing to own what they did. Bend
1:13:07the knee and be like, "Hey, dude. I
1:13:09messed up. I'm sorry." And then you have
1:13:12to go, we're doing a little Bible study
1:13:13here. You got to go to the book of
1:13:15Proverbs. And Proverbs gives a taxonomy
1:13:17of three types of people. And man, Sean,
1:13:20just as I I think
1:13:23I think there's a blessing on your life
1:13:25and like the fact that you'll even have
1:13:27a pastor. Like I saw you have Bryce on
1:13:29and some other guys, Jeremiah, some
1:13:30other guy. Like you're going to have
1:13:33some people who try to take advantage of
1:13:34you and sometimes that's going to be
1:13:36because the enemy is going to work in
1:13:37it. Okay? So you're going to have this,
1:13:41you know, you're going to have this
1:13:42thing happen. this like for for guys who
1:13:46man for whatever reason they got a lot
1:13:48of people who know who they are like
1:13:50you. This little thing from the book of
1:13:52Proverbs might be one of the most
1:13:54important things you ever internalize.
1:13:56In the book of Proverbs there's three
1:13:58types of people. Wise, foolish, and
1:14:01evil. And so when you're deciding
1:14:03whether or not you reconcile with
1:14:05somebody, and I say this not just Sean
1:14:06Ryan, I'd say this anybody. You got to
1:14:08figure out is this a wise person? I
1:14:11probably want to reconcile with a wise
1:14:12person. Is this a foolish person? Ah,
1:14:15question mark because fools fools can
1:14:18can can hurt you, right? Is this an evil
1:14:21person? You definitely want to stay away
1:14:23from an evil person. So, I think you're
1:14:25going to ask that question.
1:14:28Then I think what I'd say if you just
1:14:30gone, hey, how do you do it? Number
1:14:33[clears throat]
1:14:34one, if you don't get like dude, like
1:14:36down deep deep in your soul the reality
1:14:40of the gospel. The gospel is the good
1:14:42news that I am not a mistaker in need of
1:14:45a life coach. I'm a sinner in need of a
1:14:47savior. [snorts] And that God so loved
1:14:49the world that he gave his one and only
1:14:50son that whoever believes in him would
1:14:52not perish but have eternal life. That
1:14:53like man, God so loved Josh Howardan
1:14:55that he gave Jesus Christ so that if
1:14:57Josh Howardan believes in him, Josh
1:14:59Howardon would have eternal life. if
1:15:01[clears throat] I don't receive that
1:15:03forgiveness.
1:15:04It's like in Kentucky. I grew up in
1:15:06Kentucky. You might say it like this.
1:15:07You can't give what what you don't got.
1:15:09Can't give what what you don't got. So,
1:15:12one, I got to start there. All right.
1:15:14That now I'm going start there. Now,
1:15:15I'll do these others. Try try to be a
1:15:17little more. Try not not do a whole
1:15:20sermon here. Uh the second
1:15:23>> you can do the sermon, man.
1:15:24>> All right.
1:15:24>> It's all good.
1:15:25>> I'm trying to respect you. All right.
1:15:26I'll do my best here.
1:15:28>> There's no reason to speed it up.
1:15:29>> All right.
1:15:31All right.
1:15:33What most what happens to most people in
1:15:35my opinion is honestly, man, they never
1:15:39fully realized what happened to them and
1:15:42is still happening to them because of
1:15:44what happened to them. And it's like,
1:15:46you can't forgive what you didn't
1:15:48identify. Okay? I can't solve a problem
1:15:50that I didn't define. Okay? If I can't
1:15:52define it, I can't solve it. [gasps] So,
1:15:55I got a buddy that recommended this and
1:15:58I've been recommending it for years.
1:16:00is [snorts] that parable in Matthew 18.
1:16:04It says that when somebody sins against
1:16:05you, it is as if a debt has been
1:16:08occurred.
1:16:10That person took something from you.
1:16:12Okay? So in your analogy, that person
1:16:14may have taken your uh ability to feel
1:16:19at ease and safe around pastors away
1:16:22from you. I hope the Lord redeems that.
1:16:24And I would just say to anybody, this is
1:16:25not this is not about you. This is just
1:16:27about anybody. Anybody who receives a
1:16:30wound, anybody, Satan will get in there
1:16:33and try to capitalize on it. And that's
1:16:35the prison. Hey, because that thing
1:16:37happened to you, you can never, you'll
1:16:39you make an inner vow. I'll never do
1:16:41that again. I'll never trust men again
1:16:44because that dude did that to me when I
1:16:46was six. I'll never go to What people
1:16:48don't realize when you start using that
1:16:51type of language, that's prison
1:16:53language.
1:16:55I'll ne in other words bars have been
1:16:58erected between me and that thing. And I
1:17:00just want to give a gentle watch out to
1:17:01everybody listening. Sometimes that
1:17:03thing is a really really good thing that
1:17:06Satan's trying to use a old wound to
1:17:09keep you from ever getting that good
1:17:11thing again.
1:17:12>> Okay.
1:17:14>> So what you got
1:17:15>> if you're talking about are you talking
1:17:16about my particular situation because I
1:17:18did say I'll never do it again.
1:17:20>> No, that's I use that analogy. I'm
1:17:22talking about anything. It doesn't mean
1:17:24I'll keep myself from the word. It would
1:17:25just won't be that particular.
1:17:27>> Of course. Okay. Yeah, that makes sense.
1:17:29I'm saying no. No. What what I'm saying
1:17:31is typically when somebody is deeply
1:17:34wounded, and it doesn't matter your
1:17:36thing, anybody's thing, and this is not
1:17:37what you're saying.
1:17:39What Satan will sometimes do, I'm
1:17:41preaching my little sermon here. What
1:17:43Satan will sometimes do is get them to
1:17:45make an inner vow. Like, let's say a
1:17:47girl is abused when she's seven by her
1:17:49uncle. She'll make an inner vow. It's
1:17:53like a demonic reverse covenant is what
1:17:55it is. I'll never trust men again. And
1:17:59what Satan is trying to do is cut her
1:18:02off from honestly a lot of men that
1:18:05she's going to need in her life to
1:18:07become the beautiful, noble woman of
1:18:09God. You see what I'm saying? Does that
1:18:11make sense?
1:18:11>> That's perfect sense.
1:18:13>> There you go.
1:18:13>> Now, let me ask you this. Do you think
1:18:15that wisdom can come from people sitting
1:18:18against you?
1:18:19>> Oh, bro. Yes. My gosh. Yes. It's like
1:18:23because you know with that comes
1:18:24experience and while you may maybe it
1:18:26would be foolish to say I'll never trust
1:18:28another man again.
1:18:33I think a lot of wisdom could be pulled
1:18:34from that and maybe I I will never trust
1:18:37this type of man again. You can see
1:18:38through, you know, you, you know,
1:18:42a lot of times, you know, you can just
1:18:44see right through people, you know,
1:18:46through experiences of things happening
1:18:49and then you'd notice patterns that
1:18:53>> come with every human being that's like
1:18:54that.
1:18:55>> Yes, I I strongly agree with that. In
1:18:59fact, that that that's exactly what the
1:19:01word means when it says that God works
1:19:03all things for the good of those who
1:19:05love him and are called according to his
1:19:06purpose.
1:19:08and all things includes all the jacked
1:19:11up things. He He'll redeem all those
1:19:13things.
1:19:15All right. So,
1:19:16if we're going back to how do I do it,
1:19:19man, this next thing that I'm going to
1:19:20say is is like for real. It's one of the
1:19:23hardest things you're going to do. And
1:19:24it's one of these things. You can't do
1:19:25it in 5 minutes. Like you it's going to
1:19:27take like 5 hours, 5 weeks, or 5 months.
1:19:31But this thing that's got recommended
1:19:32and I've been recommended ever since.
1:19:34[clears throat]
1:19:35You got to you got to almost like make a
1:19:36debt ledger. This is what Jan and I have
1:19:39had to do for people who have very
1:19:41egregiously sinned against us and they
1:19:43were never going to own it. They're
1:19:44never going to own it. You know, this is
1:19:46what we had to do. So Jesus in Matthew
1:19:4818 says like a debt. So what you do is
1:19:51you get out a sheet of paper. It's a
1:19:52little exercise and it's not fun. And
1:19:55you sit down and first of all you
1:19:56pinpoint who sinned against me and I
1:20:00need specificity. What you got to watch
1:20:02out for is they,
1:20:06you know, there was one time, you know,
1:20:09a lot of people don't think about this
1:20:10because people do get hurt by pastors.
1:20:12See, you you got that story. [snorts] Uh
1:20:14>> I wouldn't say I've been hurt by a
1:20:15pastor.
1:20:16>> There you go. I would not say that. I
1:20:18don't want to put that on anybody.
1:20:19>> There you go. But you know, um uh some
1:20:24>> mistrust, but
1:20:25>> yeah, it makes sense. Makes sense. But
1:20:27uh what you know and I'm not this is not
1:20:29a pity party uh at all. But what I will
1:20:33say what some people sometimes don't
1:20:34don't realize is man you know pastors
1:20:36pastors can get get shot at sheep bite
1:20:38you [laughter]
1:20:40sheep you know. So, there was one time I
1:20:43was uh I went to counseling for a little
1:20:45bit when I was in Nashville cuz I was
1:20:47honestly part of because I was
1:20:48struggling with some unforgiveness.
1:20:51And uh uh this guy asked me, he was like
1:20:54uh you know, hey man, what's going on
1:20:56with you? And I was like, "Man, this the
1:20:58church I'm a pastor. [laughter] The
1:21:01church hurt me. I'm like, I'm doing this
1:21:03thing." And uh and he paused and it was
1:21:06it was one of the most powerful things
1:21:07he ever did is he stopped me and he was
1:21:09like, "Hey, man." He, you know, he judo
1:21:12moved me. He said, 'Well, hey, hey, wait
1:21:14a second, man. What do you mean by the
1:21:16church hurt you? I was like, "Well,
1:21:18church, your church hurt me, man. This
1:21:20is We're going through this thing." And
1:21:22he said, "Wait a second, Josh. Um, your
1:21:23church, I think my church at the time
1:21:24was a thousand people or something like
1:21:26that." Said, "Hey, man. Your church is a
1:21:28thousand. Did Did all thousand hurt
1:21:30you?" I'm like, "Well, no, shut up. Shut
1:21:32[laughter] up." No, but no. He said,
1:21:34"Well, hey, man. Here's what I want you
1:21:35to do. write down the names of every
1:21:38single person who actually hurt you. And
1:21:41I I wrote down those names with Jana.
1:21:43And when we got done, it was seven
1:21:46people, you know, but but what I think
1:21:49Satan had done is he had gotten me to
1:21:52transmit the pain that came from seven
1:21:55people onto the church, you know. So,
1:21:58what you got to do is it starts with
1:22:00getting like specificity.
1:22:02Who specifically sinned against me?
1:22:06I think step two, and it's not fun, is
1:22:09you got to take inventory of what what
1:22:12was taken from you, right? It's like
1:22:15I'll give an example that probably
1:22:17probably a lot of guys that listen to
1:22:18this podcast like now, you better watch
1:22:21out. This will get you is your your
1:22:24story is one time you stood at altar and
1:22:29you said, "Till death do us part." And
1:22:30you meant it.
1:22:32And then one day you woke up and found
1:22:34out she didn't.
1:22:36And now somebody else is tucking your
1:22:39kids into bed at night, right? Well,
1:22:42heads up, man. That's going to leave a
1:22:43mark. You're going to need some need to
1:22:46clean some things out. When you get to
1:22:48that debt ledger, what you got to get
1:22:49down, okay, this is who sent against me.
1:22:51Now, I got to start going I need to name
1:22:53everything that was taken from me. And
1:22:56dude, you got to write down
1:23:00[clears throat]
1:23:01you got to write down like all the stuff
1:23:03like, man, it's hard for me to, you
1:23:07know, let's say this the example I just
1:23:09used. It's hard for me to trust women
1:23:11anymore that was taken from me. Man, I
1:23:15spent eight months of my life not
1:23:17sleeping good and drinking too much
1:23:20because of that girl. Hey, uh you know
1:23:23what was taken from me is half my
1:23:24income. You know what was taken from me
1:23:27is all the job opportunities I would
1:23:28have had if I'd have been able to focus
1:23:30for that year on my career. Hey, do you
1:23:33know what's what was taken from me? The
1:23:35ability to now I see my kids, you know,
1:23:3850% of the time I just lost 50% of being
1:23:42a dad. Like you got to get down and like
1:23:45>> and the reason I say that man is people
1:23:46who don't do that like if you don't get
1:23:48like this is this is what's going on was
1:23:51taken from me.
1:23:53You can't cancel a debt that you never
1:23:56inventoried.
1:23:58And if you don't do that, like, okay,
1:24:01now once you got your debt ledger, okay,
1:24:04and that's that'll take you a minute.
1:24:06You have two choices of what you're
1:24:08going to do with that. And the first
1:24:09one, they they both suck, but in
1:24:12different ways.
1:24:14You can one, you can hang on to it.
1:24:16[laughter]
1:24:17I'm going to keep this I'm going to keep
1:24:19this debt ledger for the rest of my
1:24:20life, you know, and everywhere I go,
1:24:23everybody's going to know the reason I'm
1:24:25pissy and angry and crotchety is
1:24:28everybody's going to know is because
1:24:29they did this and I'm holding on to the
1:24:31debt. And actually, and I will say this,
1:24:35one of the biggest reasons nobody likes
1:24:37to talk about that people don't forgive
1:24:41is because if they forgive somebody,
1:24:44they lose the excuse for why they act
1:24:47like they do.
1:24:48>> It's a damn good point.
1:24:50>> It's like if I forgive them, I don't got
1:24:53an excuse anymore for why I'm angry all
1:24:56the time and why I don't trust nobody
1:24:57and why I'm cynical all the, you know,
1:24:58it's like you got to watch out for that,
1:24:59man. you know,
1:25:02so you got that, you know, you either
1:25:05you can hold on to it, but that comes at
1:25:07a real big price that it cost you the
1:25:10joy for the rest of your life. Or
1:25:13I think it's the book of Colossians. You
1:25:15can do this, and it's not easy, but it's
1:25:17the best thing that'll ever happen to
1:25:18you. It says that what God did is he
1:25:22canceled the record of debt against us
1:25:25with its legal demands, nailing them to
1:25:29the cross.
1:25:31And what you can do is you can take that
1:25:33debt ledger and I'd encourage you to
1:25:35like actually like physically do
1:25:37something like this. Like me and Jana
1:25:39Jana burned hers. She took it out to our
1:25:42fire pit and burned it. Uh I got we got
1:25:45an old cross on our property. this we
1:25:48bill has got some sentimental value to
1:25:50me. Uh sometimes I'll walk out there and
1:25:52I'll literally just like old school
1:25:55late '8s youth camp. Like I'll nail it.
1:25:58I'll nail it on there. But you've got to
1:26:00make a decision to cancel that debt
1:26:05>> and just say, "Okay, Jesus,
1:26:07[clears throat] I'm trusting that either
1:26:08you paid the penalty for this sin on the
1:26:10cross or that person will pay the
1:26:13penalty for it in hell. But what I know
1:26:15is it's not up to me. Vengeance is mine.
1:26:17I will repay, declares the Lord. Not Not
1:26:21up to me. [snorts]
1:26:23>> What about forgiving yourself?
1:26:26>> Yeah, man.
1:26:28>> That's probably the biggest one of all.
1:26:30>> Yeah.
1:26:32Yeah.
1:26:34Yeah.
1:26:36So,
1:26:38when people say forgiving themselves,
1:26:40>> that's a big ledger.
1:26:42>> It's a big ledger for some people.
1:26:45Uh, it's the biggest one. Biggest one.
1:26:49I had [clears throat] a guy write me
1:26:50from prison a few years ago after
1:26:52listening to a sermon and I was talking
1:26:55about the grace of God and how God can
1:26:56redeem anybody, you know. And he said,
1:27:00he said, he wrote me a letter and he was
1:27:01like, "Hey man, I want to believe that,
1:27:02but you don't know what I've done." And
1:27:04man, what I would say to that guy,
1:27:06actually, what I did say to that guy is,
1:27:07"Hey man, that's actually not the
1:27:09problem. The problem is you don't know
1:27:10what he did."
1:27:12uh cuz Jesus Christ went to a cross and
1:27:14and he paid the penalty of your sin for
1:27:15you, man. What about forgiving yourself?
1:27:19There's this really interesting thing
1:27:20that happens the longer somebody walks
1:27:22with the Lord where the longer they walk
1:27:26with Jesus. There's this weird thing
1:27:29that happens where um the better you
1:27:31are, but the worse you feel. You know,
1:27:33it's a it's a weird it's actually a
1:27:34weird thing. I think John MacArthur, an
1:27:36old dead pastor, said that. And uh it's
1:27:40interesting um if you watch the life of
1:27:43the Apostle Paul
1:27:46uh a lot of people miss this because the
1:27:48books of the Bible are not in
1:27:49chronological order of like when they
1:27:51were written uh they're in a different
1:27:53sequence.
1:27:55[clears throat] But if you line all the
1:27:56books up in the order that the Apostle
1:27:58Paul wrote them, uh he starts uh by
1:28:02referring to himself as one of the
1:28:05apostles.
1:28:07And then he goes a little farther and he
1:28:08says, "I'm the least of the apostles."
1:28:12And then he goes a little farther and he
1:28:13says, he calls himself the least of all
1:28:15the saints.
1:28:17And then in I think the last letter he
1:28:19ever wrote, he says, "This saying is
1:28:21trustworthy and deserving of full
1:28:22acceptance that Jesus Christ died for
1:28:25sinners of whom I am the foremost."
1:28:29So it's almost like a reverse testimony.
1:28:32It's [laughter] almost like he started
1:28:33feeling like he was.
1:28:35And [clears throat] the reason for that
1:28:36is the longer you walk with the Lord,
1:28:38you sort of know him a little better.
1:28:41And uh
1:28:43and the more you know him, the more of
1:28:45his perfection you see and the more of
1:28:46your imperfection you see and you fill
1:28:49that gap. So what happens is that gap
1:28:52gets bigger and bigger and bigger.
1:28:53Here's what I should be and here's what
1:28:55I am. And honestly, the longer you live
1:28:56some life, you sin some more sins. It's
1:28:58like the gap gets bigger and bigger. You
1:29:00know, you've done some stuff and seen
1:29:02some stuff.
1:29:04[clears throat]
1:29:05But what happens is the longer you walk
1:29:06with the Lord, the gap gets bigger and
1:29:08bigger between you and what you should
1:29:10be and what you are. But if we're really
1:29:13understanding, we're looking to the
1:29:14cross and we're understanding what Jesus
1:29:16did for us. What really ends up
1:29:17happening is your understanding of the
1:29:20grace of God to you and what Jesus did
1:29:22for you on the cross, it gets bigger and
1:29:25bigger and bigger and bigger. So John
1:29:28Newton who wrote the hymn Amazing Grace,
1:29:32he uh he was involved in the slave trade
1:29:36uh I think when he got saved if I
1:29:38remember correctly and had a pretty
1:29:40radical conversion and it bothered him
1:29:42for the rest of his life.
1:29:44uh at the end of his life um he had his
1:29:47uh he had I think he had a little
1:29:49dementia
1:29:51and uh at the end of his life one of the
1:29:53last things he ever said was though I am
1:29:56old and my memory is fading I remember
1:29:59two things very clearly I am a great
1:30:02sinner and Christ is a great savior
1:30:06and man if somebody's going how do I
1:30:07forgive myself man honestly what I would
1:30:10say is you got to get your eyes off
1:30:12yourself and it's really not about what
1:30:14you've done. Uh it it's about what he
1:30:17did. And there I'll just last thing I'll
1:30:19just say this. There's a little bit of
1:30:21me that just wants to to just gently
1:30:23gently with a pastoral heart look at a
1:30:26guy that says that and be like, "Hey
1:30:27man, who do you think you are?" You
1:30:30know, do you think you're a better
1:30:32sinner than he is a savior? I don't
1:30:35think so, man. I don't think so. So, I
1:30:38think you just got to go back to the
1:30:39cross over and over and over again and
1:30:41know, hey, that thing was nailed to the
1:30:44cross and I really am free. I really am.
1:30:49The original question was
1:30:55how can you forgive?
1:31:00You still want justice but not be
1:31:03overcome with vengeance.
1:31:04>> Yeah, that's right. That's good.
1:31:07This gets into a um [clears throat]
1:31:10is something is called uh it's called
1:31:14the theological term for it is sphere
1:31:16sovereignty. I'm going to be a little
1:31:17nerdy for a second if that's okay. Um so
1:31:21in the Bible uh God has established
1:31:24three institutions
1:31:26that when they work like they're
1:31:28supposed to work, it's good for people
1:31:30and it's good for societies. And the
1:31:32three institutions are the family, the
1:31:33church, and the state.
1:31:35And all three institutions have
1:31:37different roles. Okay. [snorts] So, you
1:31:41know, kind of the image that theologians
1:31:42have used to just Bible be Bible, you
1:31:44know, Bible nerd for a second is what
1:31:46they'll say is, you know, uh uh you
1:31:49know, you got the uh the rod, the keys,
1:31:52and the sword is what they'll say. You
1:31:54know, the sort of the image that's the
1:31:56logo of the family is the rod. You know,
1:31:58hey, we're we're good fathers discipline
1:32:00their children, raise them in the fear
1:32:02and admonition of the Lord. Uh the image
1:32:03of the church is the keys. That's Jesus
1:32:05when he talks to Peter. I give you the
1:32:07keys of the kingdom. Whatever you bind
1:32:08on earth will be bound in heaven.
1:32:09Whatever you loose on earth will be
1:32:10loosed in heaven. That kind of thing.
1:32:11Keys. It's about ordinances, you know,
1:32:14uh helping people understand, helping
1:32:17people be saved and then helping people
1:32:20understand that they are saved. Okay.
1:32:22Keys. And then uh the image for the
1:32:24state is the sword. That comes from
1:32:26Romans 13. And it says that the
1:32:28government uh that human governments as
1:32:31very imperfect as they are. I think we
1:32:33agree on that.
1:32:34>> Uh that they have been instituted by God
1:32:37that actually governments are a good
1:32:38thing. You know, you know uh uh bad
1:32:42governance is a real bad thing but a
1:32:44world with no government is a real bad
1:32:47thing. Right? And what it says is uh uh
1:32:50that God has uh the one of the roles of
1:32:53the government is to quote bear the
1:32:55sword and be vengeance to the wrongdoer.
1:32:58So you to get back to this question. How
1:33:01can I forgive somebody and still seek
1:33:03justice? Well, here's what you do. Okay,
1:33:07[clears throat]
1:33:07Romans 13 is the passage where it talks
1:33:10about the role of the government is the
1:33:11store is the sword. It's to bring
1:33:13justice on the wrongdoer. What's very
1:33:15interesting is right before that in
1:33:17Romans 12, it says this. I you're
1:33:19actually alluding to it. It says,
1:33:21"Vengeance is mine. I will repay, says
1:33:24the Lord." In other words, don't seek
1:33:25vengeance. Don't ever do that. What it's
1:33:28acknowledging is there's a difference
1:33:30between the role of an individual and
1:33:32the role of the state. So you as an
1:33:35individual, my job is to love you, to
1:33:38forgive you, to release you from your
1:33:39debt. Like I'm not walking around trying
1:33:41to take vengeance on you. It's actually
1:33:43wrong for an individual to try to do the
1:33:46job of the government. Okay, there.
1:33:48Okay, so I can forgive you, but then
1:33:51it's still a good, godly, and just thing
1:33:54for the government to do its job to try
1:33:56to bring justice on the wrongdoer. So,
1:33:59man, honestly, it's fully appropriate
1:34:01for somebody that like commits a crime
1:34:03against somebody for you to forgive that
1:34:05person and then call the police and be
1:34:07like, "Hey, man, this person just did
1:34:09this." and report them. Those things are
1:34:11not in conflict. Does that make sense?
1:34:13>> Does make sense. Does make sense.
1:34:17>> Why did Jesus have to die on the cross?
1:34:20>> Yeah.
1:34:21>> Why did he have to do it?
1:34:23>> I mean,
1:34:24>> he's God's son. He's God's only son. Why
1:34:28didn't God make another son?
1:34:29>> Mhm.
1:34:30>> We got a lot of questions here. I mean,
1:34:32I just don't I just
1:34:34I don't fully understand why it had to
1:34:38happen. If he is God,
1:34:41why couldn't he just forgive?
1:34:43>> Exactly.
1:34:43>> Yeah, dude. Yeah, man. That's like my
1:34:46favorite question to answer ever, right?
1:34:49So,
1:34:50[clears throat] the Bible says that God
1:34:53uh did it that way so that he could be
1:34:55both. Let me say it and then explain it.
1:34:57So, he could be both just and the
1:35:00justifier of the ungodly. All right? So,
1:35:03just [clears throat]
1:35:04and justifier. All right. So
1:35:07the my favorite way to illustrate this
1:35:10is is by a story. Okay. So best
1:35:14illustration of why God had why Jesus
1:35:15had died on the cross I've ever heard.
1:35:17All right. It goes like this. Once upon
1:35:19a time in a faroff kingdom, uh there was
1:35:22a king who is known by everyone in the
1:35:24kingdom to be the most just and loving
1:35:27king who had ever lived.
1:35:30But then it was discovered that somebody
1:35:32was stealing from the king's treasury.
1:35:34And so the king being a just king, he
1:35:36sent out an edict that whenever it was
1:35:38discovered who was stealing from the
1:35:39king's treasury, that that person would
1:35:42receive 10 lashes.
1:35:44Well, the theft continued and so he
1:35:46issued another decree. When it's
1:35:48discovered who's stealing from the
1:35:50king's treasury, it would be 20 lashes.
1:35:52Theft continued 30 lashes until finally
1:35:54the king issued a final decree. And he
1:35:56said, "When it's discovered who's
1:35:58stealing from the king's treasury, it
1:36:01will be a sentence of 40 lashes." Now,
1:36:03the problem with that was that 40 lashes
1:36:05was a death sentence. And so, the theft
1:36:09continued until eventually it was
1:36:11discovered that none other than the
1:36:13king's daughter was the one who was
1:36:16stealing from the treasury. So, then a
1:36:19question began to ripple through the
1:36:21kingdom. What would the king do? Some
1:36:24thought he would forgive her, but then
1:36:25how would he be just? Uh, some thought
1:36:28that he would issue the sentence, but
1:36:31then how would he be loving?
1:36:33Well, it was decided. The king sat down
1:36:35and decided, you know what? The sentence
1:36:38is just. The punishment must fall. And
1:36:41so, the decree stands. And so, one day,
1:36:44the entire kingdom was gathered. And in
1:36:47front of everybody, the king's own
1:36:48daughter was marched up to the podium in
1:36:51front of the entire kingdom. And she was
1:36:53bent over the podium. And the back of
1:36:56her shirt was ripped open. And the
1:36:58executioner stood there and he began to
1:37:01raise his whip to land the first slash.
1:37:05And as soon as he did, the king yelled,
1:37:07"Stop!"
1:37:09And there was a silence that fell. And
1:37:11the king strode forward and he took off
1:37:14his own shirt and he bent over and he
1:37:17wrapped his body around his own daughter
1:37:19and looked back up over his shoulder and
1:37:21he said, "Now hit her." And the
1:37:25executioner objected and he said, "But
1:37:27king, those lashes, they'll fall on
1:37:30you." And he said, "The sentence must
1:37:32stand. It's just hit her."
1:37:36And so 40 lashes fell on the body of the
1:37:39king that protected the body of his
1:37:42daughter. And the king died in thestead
1:37:45of his daughter. And what happened,
1:37:47Sean, in that story is the king was both
1:37:50just because payment for the sin had to
1:37:52be made. And [snorts] the king was the
1:37:55justifier of the ungodly. She went free
1:37:59because he took the penalty. See, the
1:38:02reason Jesus had to die on the cross is
1:38:04because God is just and so payment for
1:38:07sin has to be made. Like if somebody
1:38:09walked into a courtroom
1:38:11and a judge just went, "You know what,
1:38:13man? You raped that girl when she was
1:38:16young, but you're real sorry and I have
1:38:18the power to do it. You're forgiven." M
1:38:21>> nobody would think that was a just
1:38:24judge.
1:38:26So penalty for sin had to be made but
1:38:30God is love. So he made the payment
1:38:33himself. That's what the Bible means
1:38:35when it says for the wages of sin is
1:38:37death but the free gift of God is
1:38:39eternal life through Jesus Christ our
1:38:40Lord. Okay. So it's a substitutionary
1:38:44sacrifice. In my place condemned he
1:38:47stood.
1:38:48>> Wow.
1:38:50It's a great explanation.
1:38:52>> Does it make sense?
1:38:53>> Makes perfect sense. Okay.
1:38:54>> Thank you.
1:38:55>> Yeah. You
1:38:56>> want to take a break?
1:38:57>> Let's do it, man.
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1:40:20All right, Josh, back from the break. We
1:40:22just wrapped up forgiveness, but I did
1:40:23have one more question. Is there anybody
1:40:27or anything you're struggling with to
1:40:29give forgiveness? You got any any
1:40:32stories on that? Anything going on right
1:40:34now?
1:40:36Dude,
1:40:37>> I think we all struggle with it.
1:40:38>> Yeah, it's tough. It's It's hard to do.
1:40:41>> Yeah, man. You know, um probably not,
1:40:46you know, you know, I don't know if
1:40:48there's anything I'll I would want to
1:40:49put on air.
1:40:50>> Gotcha.
1:40:51>> You know, there's probably probably like
1:40:52you maybe something I could be
1:40:54transparent about.
1:40:56[clears throat]
1:40:56>> Being a pastor is is a it's a weird
1:40:58thing. It's a It's a pecul It's a
1:41:01peculiar life. [laughter]
1:41:04And uh Why do you say that?
1:41:07>> It's just a It's a weird life, man. It's
1:41:09like
1:41:10>> What's weird about it?
1:41:13>> Well, you know, uh
1:41:16uh you know, everywhere you go, um
1:41:19probably similar to you, at least where
1:41:21you are, PE people know who you are. Uh
1:41:24and they have extremely strong opinions
1:41:26about what you do. And uh uh and then
1:41:30you kind of talk, you know, you get on
1:41:32top of that. Man, my job is to say to
1:41:36open the word of God and do then do my
1:41:38very best to apply it to your life. And
1:41:41man, you know, sometimes that's going to
1:41:43get up all in your
1:41:45>> Do you let those opinions get to you?
1:41:46Does that bother you?
1:41:48>> Not as much anymore. Not as much
1:41:51anymore. However, uh there are people
1:41:55who over the years and it what usually
1:41:57it'll last for like this is weird. I've
1:41:59kind of already talked about this
1:42:00publicly. [laughter]
1:42:02There are people who for whatever reason
1:42:04might be a personality type might be
1:42:06something else who they'll just decide
1:42:08they hate you and they'll just it's
1:42:11almost like a dog on a bun. they'll like
1:42:12latch on and like they make destroying
1:42:17you their life calling for a few years
1:42:20and you know man it's like that affects
1:42:22I'll give you an example
1:42:24uh here's how it affects me like this is
1:42:26a debt ledger kind of thing [laughter]
1:42:28you know like [clears throat] I preached
1:42:30a sermon
1:42:32a couple years ago that got into
1:42:34cultural political applications
1:42:37uh that year uh our home insurance
1:42:41application was denied. Uh they got we
1:42:45were threatened by multiple people. Uh
1:42:47lawsuits. Uh they got a hold of Jana's
1:42:50my wife's cell phone number and just uh
1:42:53spammed the cell phone. They posted our
1:42:55address. That's probably that happens to
1:42:56all everybody that's public. They post
1:42:58our address a million places, a million
1:43:01stories like you know it's like every
1:43:03time to open the internet it was he's a
1:43:05he's a pedophile. He's I mean like
1:43:08insane,
1:43:09you know, you know, stuff. Uh posted,
1:43:13you know, pictures of our uh of our kids
1:43:16playing in our yard on the internet. I
1:43:18mean, it's like
1:43:19>> privacy violations.
1:43:20>> Yeah, dude.
1:43:21>> And it's like, what did you get out of
1:43:23that?
1:43:24>> Yeah.
1:43:24>> Why'd you do it? Did you get something?
1:43:26I hope you got something out of that.
1:43:28>> Yeah. Well, they don't.
1:43:29>> I know you didn't.
1:43:30>> Yeah, they don't.
1:43:31>> Wait, like you you think your friend
1:43:32gives a that you
1:43:34>> Yeah. saw my kids playing out front.
1:43:36They don't. They don't give a
1:43:39[laughter]
1:43:40>> And then they do it again.
1:43:42>> Yes.
1:43:42>> And then they got to pretend to be your
1:43:44friend or they, you know, that's kind of
1:43:46like some of the stuff that I was kind
1:43:47of getting at earlier. You know what I
1:43:48mean? And it's just it's like
1:43:51>> they just don't realize how much that
1:43:53like it's not it's not even
1:43:56>> it's just it's a safety thing.
1:43:58>> You know, and it's like what what did
1:43:59you get out of that?
1:44:00>> Yeah.
1:44:00>> I know you didn't mean anything by it,
1:44:01but what did you get out of that?
1:44:03>> Well, no. I think they do mean something
1:44:04by it sometimes.
1:44:05>> Well, yeah. I mean, okay, I'm I'm
1:44:08talking I was talking about, you know,
1:44:09it
1:44:11people that don't mean you harm.
1:44:13>> There you go.
1:44:13>> You know, but then there is the other
1:44:15side of it. But
1:44:17>> yeah, dude, when I got, you know,
1:44:18[clears throat] that year we had some,
1:44:20you know, I don't I think it's okay to
1:44:22talk about it. We had somebody like
1:44:24arrested on our property. You know, I
1:44:27was, you know, our kids are coming home
1:44:29asking why is dad on the news, you know,
1:44:31cuz they're Yeah. It's just like
1:44:32>> Mhm.
1:44:33>> Honestly, it doesn't bother me when it
1:44:35starts messing with my kids.
1:44:37>> Yep.
1:44:37>> Uh that's a new ball game.
1:44:40>> Yep.
1:44:41>> So, yeah. Yeah, I do. Yeah, I do. Dude,
1:44:43I want to go back to one thing you said
1:44:45earlier. You asked the question. It's
1:44:48like, man, the same thing will happen
1:44:50and it just it just sends me like I just
1:44:52keep feeling the same thing over and
1:44:53over again.
1:44:55One of the misconceptions I think people
1:44:57have about forgiveness is they think
1:44:58it's a one-time event. There is a reason
1:45:00Jesus says, "Hey man, you're going to
1:45:02have to forgive seven times, 70 times."
1:45:05And honestly, Sean, what I've learned is
1:45:07a lot of times all of them are for the
1:45:10same thing and the same person. Like,
1:45:12I'm going to have to forgive
1:45:14[clears throat]
1:45:14if somebody's husband cheats on them.
1:45:19They forgive him and they reconcile and
1:45:21they keep the marriage. That happens in
1:45:22our church all the time.
1:45:27Then every time they see their husband
1:45:29talk to a woman, even completely
1:45:31innocuously in the lobby at church, it's
1:45:34like just saying hi to somebody that's
1:45:36on their serve team.
1:45:37>> Mhm.
1:45:38>> She may have all those same emotions
1:45:40shoot back up. Even though he's not
1:45:42doing anything wrong, she's going to
1:45:44have to forgive again and again and
1:45:48again
1:45:49>> for the same sin. H.
1:45:53So, you're saying every time somebody
1:45:57sees the
1:46:00perpetrator,
1:46:02it it comes up again and you have to go
1:46:04through the process all over again.
1:46:05>> That thing Jesus said of, "How many
1:46:07times should I forgive Jesus?" Seven
1:46:08times. And in Matthew 18, Jesus goes,
1:46:11"No, Peter, it's actually going to be
1:46:12seven times, 70 times, 490 times." And
1:46:14what he's saying is infinite.
1:46:17And honestly, a lot of times you're just
1:46:19going to have to forgive the same one
1:46:21sin over and over and over because it
1:46:25keeps coming back up in your heart. The
1:46:27reason that's important is people will
1:46:29live with false guilt
1:46:31and they'll think, "Man, the fact that I
1:46:33still struggle with anger on this, it
1:46:35means that I haven't forgiven. I must
1:46:37not be a good Christian."
1:46:39>> It's like, "No, man. You're a normal
1:46:41human and you're just doing the
1:46:43forgiveness thing over and over and
1:46:45over.
1:46:46That's a good point.
1:46:49>> Let's go back to the comments. Sounds
1:46:51like it sounds like people's opinions
1:46:52bother you.
1:46:54>> They uh
1:46:56you know, at this point uh
1:46:59>> do you do you does that does that is
1:47:02that in your head when you're up there
1:47:04giving your ministry?
1:47:05>> Oh gosh. You know, is this not at all
1:47:07>> good? No, not at all, man. The first few
1:47:11times it happened to me when I was
1:47:13younger, it does. It did. No. Like uh
1:47:18you don't become a pastor unless you
1:47:20like and care about people.
1:47:22>> I hope you know there's probably some
1:47:24psychopaths out there.
1:47:25>> Uh so yeah, then the the the default
1:47:28mode is you do, man. You want people to
1:47:32love and trust you. And the first time,
1:47:35you know, you get a little internet mob
1:47:37or whatever it is, it does mess with
1:47:39you. at this at this point it's just so
1:47:42you know there's always a little of you
1:47:45just kind of get to the spot where it's
1:47:47Galatians 1:10 for am I now trying to
1:47:50please man or am I trying to please God
1:47:52if I'm trying to please man I am no
1:47:53longer a servant of Christ and you just
1:47:56sort of let me just turn it off
1:47:58>> yeah I was just going to
1:48:01bring that up I mean it's interesting
1:48:03you know I'm kind of going through that
1:48:04right now and and
1:48:07I've never I never thought that I was
1:48:11influenced by
1:48:14my audience,
1:48:16but really by anybody. And then uh
1:48:22and I and and and that's really
1:48:23important to me that I'm not influenced
1:48:25by anybody. And I always say what I I
1:48:28always say what I'm going to say. I
1:48:30don't let anybody dictate what I say,
1:48:33what my opinions are. I don't care, you
1:48:35know. But I do care. I did care a little
1:48:38bit, you know, and I I would get the
1:48:40internet mobs and it would it would hurt
1:48:42and then I would steer away from
1:48:45certain conversations for a little bit
1:48:47until I felt like I was healed and then
1:48:49I'd
1:48:50>> Mhm.
1:48:50>> dive back in the fight, you know, and
1:48:52and um and I realized that um what am I
1:48:57trying to say here? You know what I
1:48:59realized? I
1:49:01ever since I came to Christ probably
1:49:03about I don't know 3 years ago maybe um
1:49:07like fully committed.
1:49:13I read this thing in the Bible once that
1:49:16said that many people it I'm not a guy
1:49:20that quotes scripture so but he was
1:49:22talking about many people will
1:49:25say they're doing things in my name and
1:49:28they aren't. That's right.
1:49:29>> And that's right.
1:49:31>> I kind of self-reflected on that. That
1:49:33may have been like 6 months ago, maybe
1:49:35half a year ago or so. I'm like,
1:49:38man. Like, I feel like I'm, you know,
1:49:40he's always in my head. You know, I'm
1:49:42always trying to do the right thing.
1:49:45But then you get all these people coming
1:49:46up to you and they're like, oh, you're
1:49:48doing God's work.
1:49:50>> And you look at the comments and they're
1:49:52all like, "Oh, yeah. You're doing a
1:49:54great job, Sean."
1:49:56You look at the views and the likes and
1:49:58and the negative too, you know, and
1:50:01and and and you get pumped up, you know
1:50:04what I mean, by all these people.
1:50:06[laughter]
1:50:07And and and then it and then it it I
1:50:10mean, for lack of a better term, it mind
1:50:12you. You're like, "Oh I am
1:50:14doing the right thing."
1:50:16>> But it's just a bunch of people
1:50:18>> Mhm.
1:50:19>> that don't know any better than me or
1:50:21you or anybody.
1:50:22>> Mhm. you know, and [clears throat] and
1:50:24just going with the flow. And so you you
1:50:27are you you it tricks you into thinking
1:50:30that you're doing the and I'm not saying
1:50:31I was doing the wrong thing. I think
1:50:32I've done some stuff that's wrong, you
1:50:35know, on here that I thought was right
1:50:37that I was influenced by praise,
1:50:41>> you know, and I and I feed off the like,
1:50:43oh well, if all these people think I'm
1:50:44doing the right thing, then I must be
1:50:45doing the right thing, right?
1:50:47>> But they don't know
1:50:49>> Yeah.
1:50:50>> And I don't know Mhm.
1:50:52[clears throat]
1:50:52>> And so I just recently just cut it all
1:50:54off. I'm not on I don't look at any of
1:50:56it anymore. I don't even look at the
1:50:58financials behind anything anymore
1:51:00>> really.
1:51:02>> Okay.
1:51:03>> Because I don't I just don't want to be
1:51:05I want to be totally uninfluenced
1:51:07and
1:51:10in touch with God as much as possible
1:51:13without man human beings getting in the
1:51:17middle of that relationship. You know, I
1:51:19really want to know like what do you
1:51:20want me to do here? What do you want me
1:51:22to talk about? What do you want me to
1:51:24do?
1:51:26Not what all these people, you know, six
1:51:28million people want me to do. Want to
1:51:30know what you want me to do. So, I cut
1:51:32it all off. I don't I don't even have I
1:51:36don't have any of it on my phone. I will
1:51:38watch YouTube and that's it
1:51:41>> on my TV, but I don't I don't look at
1:51:44any of that anymore. H let's see
1:51:47how it goes. I could crash and burn.
1:51:49>> I bet not.
1:51:50>> But it feels pretty good so far,
1:51:52>> dude. I think you're heading in the
1:51:55right direction. I think I'd love to
1:51:56know what you think about this,
1:51:58[clears throat]
1:51:58you know, kind of what what I learned
1:52:01when some of that stuff started
1:52:02happening is like,
1:52:06[clears throat]
1:52:06you know, um there's a proverb that says
1:52:10uh whoever walks with the wise becomes
1:52:12wise and a companion of fools will
1:52:13suffer harm. And it's kind of that
1:52:16principle of man over time
1:52:19you and me we will end up becoming
1:52:23whatever is like the average of the five
1:52:26people who are closest to us. Whoever
1:52:27those five people are you extrapolate
1:52:30out 5 years 10 years that that's who I'm
1:52:32going to be. And so you know how I've
1:52:35kind of thought about it I I' I'd love
1:52:37to know what you think. How I've kind of
1:52:39thought about it is like man you you
1:52:40know what I'm going to try to do? Uh,
1:52:43what I'm really going to focus on is
1:52:45assembling the band of brothers around
1:52:47me and and getting I care who that is a
1:52:51lot.
1:52:52>> Like who who are those like five ride or
1:52:54die guys that that band of brothers like
1:52:57they know my junk. I know their junk.
1:52:59And when it hits the fan, that's who I
1:53:00call. And those are the guys that like I
1:53:02got those guys. I got five or six guys.
1:53:04They know we text multiple times per
1:53:07day. They're praying for you today. And
1:53:09they, you know, it's like, "Hey, man.
1:53:12What do you see in me? Am I missing it?
1:53:14And like, hey, I need you to
1:53:17>> because I will say there are some people
1:53:18who like,
1:53:19>> who are they? Who did you put around
1:53:21you?
1:53:21>> Yeah.
1:53:22>> Do they work with you? Are they part of
1:53:24your ministry?
1:53:24>> There are they the guys out the side
1:53:26there?
1:53:27>> There's a uh some of them. Yes.
1:53:28Actually, some of those guys do function
1:53:30like that. So, our elders, we've got
1:53:32elders at our church. Every year, I do
1:53:34the same thing. What do y'all see? I
1:53:37say, what I do every year is I'll ask
1:53:38them, first of all, they've got an open
1:53:40door. The key to this that I've noticed
1:53:42is you you probably felt the same is
1:53:44like man as uh and man I you know I say
1:53:46this with humility I hope that you know
1:53:50as your as your platform grows your
1:53:52notoriety grows it gets harder to find
1:53:55people who will be honest with with you.
1:53:58So then what I've noticed is I have to
1:53:59like deputize people like I'm giving you
1:54:03authority to to call me if I'm break if
1:54:06I'm breaking the speed limit. That's
1:54:08your job. Like I'll say, "I need you to
1:54:11keep me out of the newspaper. I'd rather
1:54:12be embarrassed in front of you than
1:54:13embarrassed in front of however many
1:54:15millions of people or whatever, you
1:54:16know." So for me, we got elders at our
1:54:19church. They're like, "We're meeting
1:54:21constantly and they know like, "Hey man,
1:54:23tell me." Once a year, I ask those guys,
1:54:25"What should I start doing? What should
1:54:26I stop doing? What should I keep doing?
1:54:27What do you see in my life?"
1:54:30I've obviously got Jana. Uh Jana should
1:54:32be number one. Uh Jana, me and Jana take
1:54:35a walk. I'm not saying anybody's got to
1:54:37do this. Uh, I got a lot of problems in
1:54:40my life. I got a real good marriage. I
1:54:43got a real good marriage. Uh, Jana is a
1:54:46wise,
1:54:48very courageous, very [snorts] godly
1:54:50woman. We take a walk at less a day. So,
1:54:54we usually walk about four miles a day
1:54:55together. And really, all we're doing is
1:54:59it's just like we're just we're talking
1:55:00about Jesus, we're talking about life,
1:55:02we're talking about our kids, we're
1:55:02talking about ministry. And Jana will
1:55:05Jana will tell me if she sees if she
1:55:08sees something, Janet's going to tell
1:55:10me. But she'll also be the person that
1:55:14if I were to ever like need to preach
1:55:16something that was difficult as like I
1:55:18know this is going to make people mad.
1:55:19Uh if I flaked
1:55:22and I walked off stage, Jana will be the
1:55:24first person be like, I love you. You
1:55:26flaked.
1:55:28So she'll she'll she'll speak into my
1:55:31life. She'll also put steel on my spine.
1:55:33She'll do that.
1:55:34>> Nice.
1:55:35>> And then I got I got some of these guys
1:55:38out here. I got a group of pastors that
1:55:40I've been friends with for a long long
1:55:41long time that we're on a group text and
1:55:44we we keep in touch. These are guys in
1:55:48Arizona. Uh there's a guy up in state of
1:55:52Washington. Uh there's a guy over in
1:55:55Atlanta
1:55:56those guys. But they you know I
1:56:00>> I mean it's interesting. I love it and I
1:56:03do the same thing and I've got
1:56:10everybody's in I mean everybody
1:56:15got got four people in this building
1:56:17that have been with me since the
1:56:18beginning of this damn thing or right at
1:56:20the beginning. One of them came before
1:56:22that, 17 years old when I was teaching
1:56:26tactics and he's been with me for 10
1:56:28years now. And these these people are
1:56:30like my family and um
1:56:36so I have that now on the flip and and I
1:56:39love them and they love me and and
1:56:43we've been through we've been through a
1:56:45lot of together and we'll go
1:56:46through a lot more stuff and I always
1:56:49take you know what they say into
1:56:53into account and
1:56:57but the interesting thing is
1:57:01they're also influenced by the success
1:57:03of this.
1:57:04>> Mhm.
1:57:05>> And so you can't 100%
1:57:11buy into everything that they're telling
1:57:13you because they are influenced. Their
1:57:16lives are influenced by this. So of
1:57:18course they're influenced by this.
1:57:20>> Same with your guys out there. They're
1:57:22influenced by the success of what you're
1:57:24doing.
1:57:25>> And so
1:57:26>> that's right. You have to keep that in
1:57:28mind.
1:57:29>> That's right. You got to have the
1:57:30outside.
1:57:32But what that does, at least for me,
1:57:35is when stuff hits the fan, which I pray
1:57:38is not frequent,
1:57:40you know, that the little axiom becomes
1:57:42for me, criticism should be weighed, not
1:57:45counted. So, I'm not taking a poll of
1:57:48how many people liked it and how many
1:57:50people didn't like it. And if more
1:57:51people didn't like it than liked what I
1:57:53said, it was wrong. No, man. We got
1:57:55Bible verses for that. Let God be true
1:57:56and every man a liar. Amen. I'm We're
1:57:59gonna be in the minority on a whole
1:58:00bunch of stuff. We're g We're gonna
1:58:02stand on stand on the word of God and
1:58:05let God be true and every man a liar.
1:58:07We're okay with that. But when it hits
1:58:09the fan and I'm start asking people,
1:58:11"Man, what'd you think? Did I miss it?"
1:58:13I'm I'm not counting how many criticisms
1:58:16did I get. I'm weighing who did it come
1:58:19from.
1:58:19>> Mhm.
1:58:21>> If it came from Jana,
1:58:23I almost don't need to hear anything
1:58:25else. like, [laughter] you know, if it's
1:58:27one of my elders, I almost don't need to
1:58:29hear anything else. If it's one of those
1:58:31guys, it's like a ride or die. So,
1:58:34that's how I kind of think about it.
1:58:38There's a point where you realize you're
1:58:40doing the same things you used to do,
1:58:42but your body just responds differently.
1:58:45Same workouts, same effort, same
1:58:47discipline, but recovery takes longer.
1:58:50Energy isn't as steady, and you don't
1:58:52bounce back the way you used to. And
1:58:54once you notice that, you start asking
1:58:56questions. Is it stress? Is it sleep? Is
1:58:59it age? Is it hormones? That's when guys
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2:00:12My wife is the same. It sounds like our
2:00:14wives are very similar. You know, my
2:00:15wife, there are days that she just is
2:00:18like,
2:00:22>> "We can stop at any time. We don't need
2:00:24anything else."
2:00:28>> And I think about that and I'm glad
2:00:29she's like that because,
2:00:32>> you know, if it was the other way, she
2:00:34would just want more and more and more.
2:00:36I
2:00:36>> was going to say, dude, that tells me
2:00:38everything about your wife. Y
2:00:40>> because what that tells me is she's into
2:00:42Shawn, not what Sean can do.
2:00:44>> Yep. She doesn't like this. She loves
2:00:47what I do. She doesn't like She doesn't
2:00:50like the notoriety that comes with
2:00:52>> chill. She lowkey. Yeah, that's how Jana
2:00:56would roll if she could.
2:00:59>> Yeah,
2:01:00>> we were going to do that editing room
2:01:03over there with all the computers. That
2:01:05was going to be our studio. We were
2:01:06going to do a husband wife thing and we
2:01:08did nine pilots and they were
2:01:13wildly successful
2:01:15and
2:01:17we we deleted them all
2:01:20>> cuz she didn't like the
2:01:21>> she's like
2:01:21>> eyeballs.
2:01:22>> She's like, "We got kids. One person in
2:01:24the light is more than enough and I
2:01:27don't want anything to do with it." And
2:01:30uh
2:01:31that's cool, man. Because most women
2:01:34>> opposite. Yep.
2:01:36>> Man, I don't know. I don't know anything
2:01:38about her. That's a good woman.
2:01:40>> Yep.
2:01:42>> Is a, you know, Genesis,
2:01:45you know, pattern of marriage. And
2:01:46that's this is one thing that'll get you
2:01:48in trouble a little bit. Uh is, hey, in
2:01:52a God-honoring marriage, husband's job
2:01:54is to be a loving head and her job is to
2:01:56be a respectful helper. And there's
2:01:58nuances to that.
2:02:00But when it says helper, it's uh it's
2:02:03Evan A. The Hebrew is Evan Azar. It
2:02:06means necessary ally. And the
2:02:08implication is man, God designed her for
2:02:11Shawn Ryan. And there's a whole bunch of
2:02:13battles that Shawn could not win if that
2:02:15woman was not at Shawn Ryan's side. And
2:02:18you know, if you watch,
2:02:21every man either marries a launchpad or
2:02:24a lid.
2:02:26And you know I I you probably feel the
2:02:28same way as me. Uh
2:02:32there are guys that man dude they they
2:02:35were way way more talented than me and
2:02:38way way better opportunities and that
2:02:40kind of thing and a lot of the things
2:02:42that this is one of the other things I
2:02:45there's couple things I can't talk about
2:02:47my sweating. One of them's one of them's
2:02:49Jana. Uh the reason that we've been able
2:02:52to, you know, just see it happen, some
2:02:55of the things that happen is because I
2:02:56married a launchpad and not a lid.
2:02:59There's no way I'd go a tenth
2:03:03[laughter] as far as as far as as you
2:03:07know, we we've been graced to do if I
2:03:10had married Jan Howardon.
2:03:12>> How?
2:03:13>> Blind date.
2:03:14>> A [snorts] blind date.
2:03:15>> Blind date. [laughter] Yeah. Blind date.
2:03:18I was uh I was a senior in college and I
2:03:22was single. Jana was she got saved, gave
2:03:25her life to Christ in college. She was
2:03:27the president of her sorority over there
2:03:28at Western Kentucky University.
2:03:30And uh so the she went to college in the
2:03:34town where I grew up.
2:03:37>> [clears throat]
2:03:38>> So the guy that discipled me and for
2:03:42listeners all that means like when I
2:03:43became a Christian it was an older godly
2:03:45man that I met with to like and he
2:03:47showed me here's how you here's how you
2:03:49be a Christian man. That's all that
2:03:50means he discipled me. The guy that
2:03:53discipled me his wife discipled Jana
2:03:57after she gave her life to Christ in
2:03:58college.
2:04:00>> So then Jana's there and she's president
2:04:01of her sorority and everything and they
2:04:03just they just start asking her, "Hey,
2:04:05why are you single?" you know,
2:04:06[laughter]
2:04:07you know, and I don't know. And they
2:04:10they sat her down. And Did you grow up
2:04:12in church at all?
2:04:14>> Say that again.
2:04:14>> Did you grow up in church at all?
2:04:16>> Catholic.
2:04:17>> Catholic. Did that I don't This is This
2:04:19I'm going to show my ignorance real
2:04:20quick. Did they have like a old When I
2:04:22was growing up, we had church
2:04:24directories where they'd have
2:04:26everybody's names and pictures and phone
2:04:28numbers. Did they have that?
2:04:29>> Not that I'm aware of.
2:04:30>> All right. Well, in my old Baptist
2:04:31church, they had that. So [snorts] they
2:04:33uh they were sitting down with Jana and
2:04:35they pulled out the church directory and
2:04:37started finding all the guys her age and
2:04:39they were like, "What about him? What
2:04:42[laughter]
2:04:43about him?" They did. They did. And then
2:04:47uh and then they finally got to me and
2:04:49they were like, "What about him?" And
2:04:50she was like, "Man, you know, I don't
2:04:52know." [laughter]
2:04:53And uh so they they sent me an email and
2:04:58uh his name Jeff Carl. I mentioned him
2:05:00earlier, my youth pastor, and he was
2:05:03like, "Hey, man. I got this girl that
2:05:05you need to trust me. You need to meet
2:05:08this girl." And I'll be honest, man, the
2:05:11first time he emailed, I was kind of
2:05:12like, "Well, man, you know, I'm Josh
2:05:14Howard. I'm not desperate, you know."
2:05:16[laughter]
2:05:16And then he sent me a picture and I was
2:05:18like, "I'll be there next week."
2:05:21And I drove up to Bowling Green,
2:05:24Kentucky, and blind date. And we dated
2:05:27for four months, got engaged. engaged
2:05:29for 4 months, got married fast as we
2:05:31could. Best decision I ever made.
2:05:33>> What did you like about her? What was
2:05:35the first thing that hit you?
2:05:37>> Well, first of all, she was very
2:05:39attractive. That's the first thing I
2:05:40noticed cuz I got a picture. So, I'm I'm
2:05:42allowed to say that. First thing I
2:05:43noticed
2:05:44>> when you met her.
2:05:44>> When I met her. Oh, what? Say it again.
2:05:46>> What's the What's the What's other than
2:05:48that? What's the first thing that hit
2:05:49you?
2:05:50>> Man, she loved she loved the Lord.
2:05:54honest matters like in two seconds like
2:05:56all she wanted to talk about was like
2:05:58how she wanted to pour herself out for
2:06:00stuff that mattered. Uh I figured out
2:06:03real fast.
2:06:05Uh she obviously wanted to enjoy a great
2:06:08marriage. She wanted to find somebody
2:06:11that she could live and die with
2:06:14throwing haymakers for the kingdom of
2:06:16God. I figured that out real fast. And
2:06:18she was wise. She is a wise wise person.
2:06:25Very wise.
2:06:27Uh her judge of character is ridicul.
2:06:32Every you probably had a few moments
2:06:33where you got betrayed by somebody and
2:06:35it's like are you kidding me? Like I
2:06:37knew you for eight years or 12 or
2:06:40whatever.
2:06:40>> She saw it.
2:06:41>> There has never been a time a 100% hit
2:06:46rate.
2:06:49Yep.
2:06:50>> That sound familiar?
2:06:51>> Oh, yeah.
2:06:53>> Yeah.
2:06:53>> The Bible doesn't call him a helper for
2:06:55nothing. [laughter]
2:06:57>> Yep.
2:06:59Sounds like an amazing woman.
2:07:01>> She Yes, she does.
2:07:02>> So, these elders, do they have different
2:07:05opinions than you on topics?
2:07:08>> Oh, yeah. Yeah. They'll we'll we'll have
2:07:11meetings and now there's a there's a
2:07:14great unity of spirit,
2:07:16but man, they they love me and they love
2:07:19me enough to, hey, man, what do you
2:07:20here's what we're thinking? We'll pray
2:07:22about it and talk about it and argue
2:07:23about it and then pray about it some
2:07:25more until we get consensus on a thing.
2:07:28That's very oh very there's a very very
2:07:31high level of trust and love among those
2:07:35guys. And those guys at our church,
2:07:38they're not uh you know, like you said,
2:07:41hey man, you got to watch out when
2:07:42somebody's, you know, it's like their
2:07:44livelihood is tied to the success of the
2:07:46thing. That'll affect their judgment.
2:07:49These guys at our church, man, I not
2:07:51every church like our church. At our
2:07:54church, they're they're just they're
2:07:57just godly church members. They don't
2:07:59they're not getting a dime from the
2:08:01church. They not tied to that. which
2:08:05gives them the ability to love to love
2:08:07me enough and just like, "Hey, dude,
2:08:09here's what here's we're seeing. Here's
2:08:11what we're thinking."
2:08:13Yeah. Now, the guys I'm talking about, I
2:08:16mean, they could they, you know, they
2:08:18Yes, there is that aspect, but they're
2:08:20also, you know, just to give them
2:08:22credit, they all tell me like, "Hey, if
2:08:23you end this today, it's we're good with
2:08:26it. We just want what's best for you,
2:08:28you know." So, I got to give credit
2:08:29where credit's due. And like I said, I
2:08:31love those dudes. But I I I also like um
2:08:34you know I like so I like talking to
2:08:36Eli. You know I brought up Eli Krain
2:08:38earlier and uh that's you know if you
2:08:41watch you know that's been a topic on
2:08:43this show the Israel topic and and
2:08:47I always I talk to him every couple
2:08:49months we we battle it out and um he
2:08:53hasn't changed my opinion but you know
2:08:55maybe one day he will. And I love it
2:08:57when somebody does change my opinion
2:08:58because it means you know you're
2:09:00growing.
2:09:01>> That's right. And uh [clears throat] but
2:09:04uh
2:09:04>> that's iron sharpening iron.
2:09:06>> Yeah,
2:09:07>> that's what you just described. We got a
2:09:08Bible verse for that. That's right.
2:09:10That's great. Sometimes sparks fly when
2:09:13when iron hits iron. You know, it's
2:09:14[laughter] like some and usually a lot
2:09:17of times those are the best friendships
2:09:20that take you the farthest.
2:09:21>> Yeah. He's a good dude. And uh
2:09:26and I know there's there's there's no
2:09:28financial incentives behind him, you
2:09:30know, that are swaying his opinions. And
2:09:34uh I deeply respect that, especially
2:09:36especially a man in politics, you know.
2:09:39So,
2:09:40but um how many people are in your
2:09:43church
2:09:44>> on a a normal week now? You know, let's
2:09:47say here recently 30,000.
2:09:52How many? 30,000.
2:09:54>> Yep.
2:09:55>> Holy cow. 30,000.
2:09:58>> I know, man. I know. It's It's a lot of
2:09:59people. I know.
2:10:00>> Wow.
2:10:01>> Yeah.
2:10:02>> If you watch my episode about the
2:10:04religion business,
2:10:06>> uh I was sent clips.
2:10:08>> What' you think that? I got a lot of lot
2:10:10of texts. [laughter]
2:10:13>> Well, man, you know, there's, you know,
2:10:16I I I don't like commenting on stuff
2:10:18that I didn't dig in on. I know there's
2:10:21a lot of misconceptions
2:10:23uh about that kind of thing and you know
2:10:26uh
2:10:26>> there's some truths.
2:10:28>> It depends who you're talking about. So
2:10:30uh let me just I I'll shoot you real
2:10:32straight. There are some guys that are,
2:10:36you know, quote unquote pastors. Yeah,
2:10:39man. It's like that's not a good guy.
2:10:42[laughter]
2:10:43Absolutely.
2:10:46Yeah. But, you know, the weird thing
2:10:49about what I do is like a lot of those
2:10:52guys that are like pastors of, you know,
2:10:54bigger churches, like I I know all those
2:10:57guys, you know, and it is the thing that
2:11:01I, you know, again, this stuff I've
2:11:03never talked about publicly. The thing
2:11:04that can be tough for me is when a guy
2:11:07that I know and I'm like the the
2:11:10internet, whatever, the public
2:11:12perception is this and I'm like, I know
2:11:15that guy. I know what you're commenting
2:11:17on and I know how that is like a
2:11:20freakishly cartoonish caricature of this
2:11:23thing that actually happened, but
2:11:25because of the realities of the terrain,
2:11:27he's never going to he's never going to
2:11:29correct the record. That's tough. That's
2:11:32tough to see, you know.
2:11:34>> Uh again,
2:11:35>> cuz he's got something to gain off of
2:11:37it. That's what you're
2:11:38>> What do you mean?
2:11:39>> Is that what you're saying? somebody
2:11:41that somebody that will start
2:11:42controversy to make themselves relevant
2:11:46even though they know it's not true. Is
2:11:48that what you're talking about?
2:11:49>> So it can be, you know, and dude, I'm
2:11:51not talking about anybody. I don't have
2:11:52a name in mind. [laughter] I might, but
2:11:54I'm not going to
2:11:55>> Well, 30,000. It could be any name. You
2:11:58know what I mean?
2:11:59>> Oh, you're talking about church members.
2:12:00>> Oh, I don't know. I thought that's what
2:12:01you were talking about.
2:12:02>> Oh, I'm talking about just like in
2:12:04public when you'll see pastors get
2:12:07shredded like, you know, like kind of
2:12:09that that kind of vibe. Mhm.
2:12:11>> I'm talking about when there's like this
2:12:13massive gap between like, do you I know
2:12:15that guy and I know the real story on
2:12:17that thing.
2:12:18>> Oh.
2:12:18>> And you see what I'm saying?
2:12:19>> Okay.
2:12:20>> Yeah. That's what I'm talking about.
2:12:22>> Okay.
2:12:22>> That can be tough
2:12:23>> when you're watching. Okay. Yeah.
2:12:27>> When you're watching somebody that you
2:12:29know be defamed. Is that what you're
2:12:31talking about?
2:12:31>> Yeah. And I know, bro. That is not
2:12:34>> Yeah.
2:12:34>> That ain't what [laughter]
2:12:35Yeah. And so what'll happen to some of
2:12:37these these guys is because you know the
2:12:42incentive you you you you just were
2:12:44mentioned this you've experienced this
2:12:46the incentive structure of the internet
2:12:48is for people to be big game hunters
2:12:52who's got a big platform if I can create
2:12:55that person uh if I can uh create
2:12:58controversy by attacking that person I
2:13:00can harvest some of their platform for
2:13:03me uh which in not in all cases is let
2:13:06me just really quick say there are some
2:13:08people who abs they are saying righteous
2:13:11and true things about people who are not
2:13:14good men absolutely so let me just say
2:13:17that I don't want anybody to get me
2:13:18wrong on that then there are other
2:13:21people it's like man what's real
2:13:22interesting is uh you know uh you're
2:13:26you're saying this about this guy that
2:13:28he's just doing all this for for money
2:13:30or whatever it is when when actually
2:13:32what's happening is you have a monetized
2:13:34website and whenever you create a bunch
2:13:36of controversy, you drive a bunch of
2:13:38clicks to your monetized, you know,
2:13:41>> it's weird. It's It comes off weird.
2:13:43>> Mhm.
2:13:45What are some misconceptions,
2:13:48[clears throat]
2:13:48>> man?
2:13:50Anything in particular?
2:13:52>> Uh, [clears throat] so first of all, my
2:13:55big caveat is there are guys, and I'm
2:13:59I'm not I'm not going to go there on on
2:14:02public. Uh there are guys that I don't
2:14:07know well enough, but when I hear about
2:14:10him, I'm like, "That guy does not sound
2:14:12like a good guy. That guy don't sound
2:14:14like a good guy." I've been I've I've
2:14:16been around some guys where I'm like
2:14:19the it just didn't feel integrous to me.
2:14:22>> Like, ah, I think I'm going to make my
2:14:23band of brothers these guys over here,
2:14:25you know? So, let me just say that. Um,
2:14:28but sometimes, man, the gap between
2:14:30reality and the kind of the vibe of
2:14:33like, man, all these all these big
2:14:35church p they're all like they're all
2:14:37having affairs and they're all just in
2:14:38it for the money and they're just
2:14:40getting exploiting people and getting
2:14:42rich. I'm like, dude, that is it's just
2:14:45not true, man. Like, here, let me let me
2:14:48I'll give an example of this.
2:14:50So, uh uh I was 16 years old. God had
2:14:56just called me to ministry and I'm in
2:14:58high school. Um the path and I'm going
2:15:00to say his name. Uh the pastor of the at
2:15:04the time I believe the second largest
2:15:06church in America. The man's name was
2:15:08Bob Russell. He pastored Southeast
2:15:11Christian Church in Louisville,
2:15:12Kentucky. Okay. I'm 16 years old. God
2:15:15calls me in ministry. And my dad,
2:15:17because he was a good dad, my dad went,
2:15:19"Hey Josh, so here's what you need to do
2:15:21if you want to be a pastor someday. You
2:15:23need to find good, faithful, fruitful
2:15:25pastors. You need to go get in front of
2:15:28them. You need to ask them intelligent
2:15:30questions. You uh you need to write down
2:15:33everything they say. And then you need
2:15:35to do everything that they said. That's
2:15:37the book of Proverbs. Step one of
2:15:38getting wisdom. Get wisdom. You got to
2:15:40go get it. Okay. So, [clears throat] I
2:15:43was like, well, you know who's the best
2:15:45pastor I've ever heard of? And I was
2:15:46like, probably Bob Russell. The problem
2:15:48was he pastor a church that like in the
2:15:5090s was a church of like 20,000 people
2:15:52or something which back then like that
2:15:55didn't even exist back then. So I'm
2:15:58going to confess a sin real quick. Uh I
2:16:00was 16
2:16:02and I drove up to the Southeast
2:16:05Christian Church uh new members class.
2:16:07It was for people who are trying to
2:16:08become members of the church. Um, and
2:16:11the reason I did it is because I knew on
2:16:13a weekend because there's 20,000 people
2:16:15there, even though he's always in the
2:16:17lobby, I probably I might not be able to
2:16:19talk to him, but I knew he taught the
2:16:21new members class and there was only a
2:16:22few people there. I was like, well, I'll
2:16:24go to that. So, I sat through the whole
2:16:25new members class. And then at the end,
2:16:27I came up and I said, "Pastor Bob, I am
2:16:29so sorry. I'm not trying to become a
2:16:31member of your church. I live 2 hours
2:16:33away, but God called me to be a pastor.
2:16:35Is there any way I could take you out to
2:16:37lunch?"
2:16:39uh I'll only take 45 minutes of your
2:16:41time. I'll drive to you. I'll bring
2:16:42prepared questions. Uh and I just want
2:16:44to ask you questions about how to be a
2:16:46pastor. And he said, uh he said, "You
2:16:48know what, Josh? If you'll reach out to
2:16:50my assistant, uh you know, we'll see if
2:16:52we can set something up." So, she set
2:16:55something up for I think it was 2 years
2:16:58later if I remember right. Now, that was
2:17:00probably a gentle way to see is this kid
2:17:02going to fall through? [laughter]
2:17:04I think it was like two years later.
2:17:06Now, I'm gonna give you a I'm gonna give
2:17:08you a date. Okay? Bookmark this date in
2:17:10your head because it's gonna be
2:17:11important in a second. [clears throat]
2:17:13She set the date for I think it was
2:17:16September 13th, 2001.
2:17:21So, [clears throat] two years later, I'm
2:17:24in college and I wake up that day and uh
2:17:26now remember, I just want everybody to
2:17:28remember this is the pastor of the
2:17:30second largest church in America. I'm a
2:17:3216-year-old nobody. even more of a
2:17:34nobody than I am now when he meets me.
2:17:36So that day I wake up and I drive 5
2:17:38hours from Union University up to
2:17:41Louisville, something like that. And I
2:17:43get there and I sit down with him and
2:17:46back then uh it was pre iPhone. So you
2:17:48remember those little tape recorders
2:17:49that you could put on a table and you
2:17:51press the thing? I brought one of those.
2:17:53I still have the tape and I sat there at
2:17:56the time I was 18 then and I put it on
2:17:57the table and I had spent two years
2:18:00thinking of what are the 20 best
2:18:02questions I could ask a faithful pastor
2:18:05and I sat there and Bob Russell the
2:18:07pastor of the second largest church in
2:18:09America. He sat with a 16 then 18 he sat
2:18:13with a 18-year-old nobody college kid
2:18:16didn't even go to his church. He sat
2:18:17there for two hours and a two hours and
2:18:21answered my questions and I still have
2:18:23the tape.
2:18:24>> In fact, I'm the story is not over. The
2:18:26best part's to come. In fact, to talk
2:18:29about what we said earlier about our
2:18:30wives, I'll never forget this dude.
2:18:34>> The last thing I did is I said, "Pastor
2:18:36Bob, is there anything that I need to
2:18:39know that I didn't ask you?" And he
2:18:41said, "Yeah, Josh, there is. You need to
2:18:43know that the most important decision
2:18:45you make for your ministry will not be
2:18:47what seminary you you attend or what
2:18:49first church you take. It'll be what
2:18:51woman you marry. I never forgot it,
2:18:54dude. I never forgot it. My drive. All
2:18:56right. So, we finish and then I drive
2:18:58him back in my little 96 Kia Sophia to
2:19:02uh his church and I drop him off. And
2:19:06[clears throat] as I drop him off, his
2:19:08assistant goes, "Do you know what he
2:19:10just did for you?" And I was like, man,
2:19:12yeah, he spent two hours with me. It was
2:19:15amazing. That it was Thank you so much.
2:19:17And she said, 'N no, no. Did he tell you
2:19:19what he did to meet with you today? Now,
2:19:22I said earlier it was September 13th. It
2:19:24was September 13th, 2001,
2:19:28>> 2 days after 9/11.
2:19:29>> Bingo.
2:19:31She sits there and explains that that
2:19:34morning he had gotten called by the
2:19:36largest radio station in America and the
2:19:39largest TV station in America to do an
2:19:42interview, a nationally syndicated
2:19:44interview about God and 9/11. And Bob
2:19:49Russell said no because a righteous man
2:19:52swears to his own hurt and he does not
2:19:55change. And so instead of talking to the
2:19:57entire country that day, he said no to
2:20:00that so he could sit with a 18-year-old
2:20:03nobody and tell him how to be a faithful
2:20:06Christian man and grow up and try to be
2:20:08a faithful Christian pastor.
2:20:10Now some of me looks back and I'm like,
2:20:12I think I would have done the other.
2:20:14[laughter]
2:20:14But what I will say is those are the
2:20:18types of stories sometimes it'll bother
2:20:20me cuz all the the the you'll hear these
2:20:24bad stories that go viral and it's like
2:20:27that story doesn't go viral.
2:20:28>> Yeah.
2:20:29>> And there's a bro there's there's a
2:20:32million a million of those. That's cool
2:20:35story man. I like that.
2:20:39In fact,
2:20:39>> somebody said that once. I saw this
2:20:41somewhere. I heard it somewhere. You
2:20:43know, you know who the most important
2:20:45person in the world to me is right now.
2:20:48You are.
2:20:53I like that. I like that. I like that a
2:20:57lot.
2:21:00It means something if you think about
2:21:01it.
2:21:01>> It sure does. And people feel that. They
2:21:05feel that from you.
2:21:08I'll um
2:21:12sometimes when I you know I'm around
2:21:14these guys and I
2:21:16I won't use their names uh cuz they
2:21:19they're the kind of guys they wouldn't
2:21:21like it. But it's it is weird cuz
2:21:22they're all my buddies. Like I know
2:21:23them.
2:21:25So like here I'll just give like maybe
2:21:28just a couple examples.
2:21:31It's like
2:21:33one and it's it's fun for me because all
2:21:35the names pop in my head, you know. Uh
2:21:39one one of the pastors of one of the
2:21:42three largest churches in America,
2:21:45nobody will ever know this. He asked his
2:21:47elders to cap his salary years ago. They
2:21:51they don't raise it. and he and his wife
2:21:53sit down every single year and they go
2:21:55on a generosity retreat and they try to
2:21:57figure out how can we give more and
2:22:00they're now up to giving away 60% of
2:22:02their income just to help people and
2:22:05they give these little anonymous
2:22:06donations to people in a church and
2:22:07they're never going to know it came from
2:22:08that guy. One guy was a pastor of uh I
2:22:12think one of the two largest churches
2:22:14maybe in American history maybe. Maybe
2:22:17he wrote a book at the time he wrote a
2:22:20book that became I think one of the
2:22:23three or four best-selling books in
2:22:26America in world history.
2:22:28And what a lot of people don't know is
2:22:30what he did with all the money is uh he
2:22:33reverse first he repaid the church every
2:22:37dollar that they'd ever salaried him.
2:22:40And then he and his wife sat down and
2:22:42they figured out how to reverse tithe on
2:22:44the money. So, they gave away 90% and
2:22:47they only lived on 10. And he used that
2:22:50money to start a series of nonprofits
2:22:52that just helped the poor. Um, this
2:22:55guy's name, I will say, I'm going to
2:22:56brag on him cuz he's he's on our
2:22:58teaching team at Lake Point. There's a
2:23:00guy named Pastor Mike Bro. He pastored
2:23:02church of over 10,000 people in
2:23:04Lexington, Kentucky. I grew up listening
2:23:05to him as a kid.
2:23:06>> Wow.
2:23:07>> Now, he's on our teaching team at Lake
2:23:09Point. And I'm I'm going to brag on him.
2:23:11He probably he may kill me, but I'm just
2:23:12going to brag on him. That guy retired,
2:23:15stepped away from his church when it was
2:23:17like, I mean, peak, like crushing.
2:23:21And he stepped away. And you know what
2:23:22he ended up doing? He ended up helping
2:23:24his daughter plant a church in a city in
2:23:27California. Like rub two sticks
2:23:29together. Nobody's there. Help his
2:23:31daughter plant a church in a city that
2:23:33like didn't have many churches. And you
2:23:35know what that guy does now? Every
2:23:36Thursday, he wakes up and he leads a
2:23:39little Bible study at a local Starbucks
2:23:41for recovering addicts. and he
2:23:43volunteers his Thursday afternoon to
2:23:45help widows repair their homes and mow
2:23:47their lawns. This dude like everybody
2:23:51would have been like mega church like
2:23:54now and I could keep going like dude I
2:23:56got there's another guy who's he sets
2:23:58aside another one of the pastors of the
2:24:00largest church in America they set aside
2:24:02a large portion of their personal income
2:24:05to help families in their church adopt
2:24:08kids. [clears throat]
2:24:11Uh,
2:24:13and what they do is they set it up where
2:24:15every time somebody in their church is
2:24:16adopting, that person anonymously gets
2:24:19sent like thousands of dollars and
2:24:22they'll never know it, but it's from
2:24:23that guy that's the senior pastor and
2:24:26they've set a goal of funding at least a
2:24:28hundred adoptions like you know with
2:24:31with with what now I could just I could
2:24:33keep going on and on and on and on but
2:24:35when people hear that I think a lot of
2:24:37people hear that about you know big mega
2:24:39church pastors
2:24:40And I think they go, "Well, man, Josh,
2:24:42yeah, but why don't I ever hear those
2:24:43stories?" Because planes that land
2:24:46safely don't make the news.
2:24:49>> It's a good point. Thank you for sharing
2:24:52that.
2:24:55>> I always notice when somebody goes the
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2:24:59huge thing. It could be someone
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2:26:15So, in a church of 30,000 people,
2:26:22I'm sure everybody's wanting to get some
2:26:25time with you. They want your advice.
2:26:27They want some help. How do you
2:26:28determine how do you determine who you
2:26:31personally give your time to? Because
2:26:33it's impossible to die divided up to
2:26:3530,000 people. Plus, you got three kids
2:26:38and a wife.
2:26:39>> I do. And that's my first ministry.
2:26:41Well, a couple things I say is that's
2:26:43true in any church that's that's really
2:26:46over, you know, honestly, I don't know,
2:26:486 800 people. It's kind of the same
2:26:50thing. So, what I'd say is a few things.
2:26:54Do you give it to anybody? Give what?
2:26:56>> Your time.
2:26:57>> To just anybody.
2:26:59>> Who do you give it to? Do you give it to
2:27:00>> Oh, do I give it to Oh, of course. Oh my
2:27:02gosh. Yes. Of course. Yeah, man. Like
2:27:05what I've what I've so let me say a few
2:27:07what I do now is what I try to have this
2:27:10motto of do for one what you wish you
2:27:13could do for all. So man can can I do it
2:27:16for 30,000? No. I can't always do that.
2:27:19I'm going I'll talk about that in a
2:27:21second. But I never want to get to the
2:27:23spot where the shepherd doesn't smell
2:27:25like the sheep. Okay. So what I'll do is
2:27:28me me and Janna whoever it is. First of
2:27:30all we're in the lobby after services
2:27:32praying with people. You know, it's like
2:27:34after every service every week, unless I
2:27:36preach too long and I can't get out
2:27:38there, you know, and we're just praying,
2:27:40praying with people. Anytime I'm not
2:27:41preaching, we just tra I did this last
2:27:43weekend. We just travel all the campuses
2:27:46and we just get there early and stand in
2:27:48the lobby and we just sit there and pray
2:27:50with people. It's like the dude, it's
2:27:51like the best thing. It's like my
2:27:53[snorts] favorite. It's the best thing
2:27:54ever. Uh do that stuff. Uh, one thing
2:27:59that I'll do and then what I do is
2:28:02so in in uh, in the book of Acts when
2:28:05the church get because the same thing
2:28:06Sean a lot you know the first church
2:28:08ever existed Acts 2 two you got 3,000
2:28:10people by Acts 3 it's it's 5,000 people
2:28:13there's indications later in the book of
2:28:15Acts the church definitely grew larger
2:28:16than that so you know you you this is
2:28:18this has been around since the beginning
2:28:20and in the book of Acts is I think it's
2:28:22uh in the book of Acts when it gets to
2:28:24the spot where the church grows to the
2:28:26spot where there were a group of widows
2:28:28in the church that the pastors, the
2:28:30apostles themselves, they were like
2:28:32personally handing uh all the food to
2:28:35distribute to the widows to help them.
2:28:37The church eventually grew to a spot
2:28:38where they were spending so much time
2:28:40doing that that the Bible says they were
2:28:42distracted from two things, prayer and
2:28:44the ministry of the word. So then what
2:28:46they did, if you go read the book of
2:28:47Acts, is they essentially restructured
2:28:50the leadership of the church. They added
2:28:51a layer of leadership that we now call
2:28:53deacons. That's where that came from.
2:28:54That deacon word just means servant, you
2:28:56know.
2:28:58They did a leadership restructure, added
2:28:59a layer of leadership, [clears throat]
2:29:01and it unccorked a little kink in the
2:29:04hose so that now, hey man, these deacons
2:29:06are the ones they're administering this
2:29:08ministry to you so these guys can focus
2:29:10on prayer in the word. It's kind of been
2:29:12the same thing forever. So that's really
2:29:13what we we try to do is man um uh my job
2:29:18as the senior of pastor of church is not
2:29:21to personally do every aspect of
2:29:24ministry in church. My job is to be
2:29:27responsible as best I can that ministry
2:29:29happens for every single person at
2:29:32church. It's like we have, you know, our
2:29:34team, we have hundreds of pastors that
2:29:36are trained. So, when somebody grabs me
2:29:38in the lobby, they're like, "Hey, man.
2:29:40Uh, I I need to meet with you." Well,
2:29:42one, I I'll talk to you right now in the
2:29:44lobby. Let's talk. What What can I help
2:29:45with? I can pray. But one of my
2:29:48questions is is I will sometimes ask,
2:29:49"Hey, man. Which one do you want? Do you
2:29:51want help or do you want me? Cuz if you
2:29:53want help, I can get you with a person
2:29:55that's actually more gifted than me for
2:29:57the ministry that you need that's
2:30:00actually going to get you better help.
2:30:01That's why the Bible talks about how
2:30:02there's one body with many parts.
2:30:04Everybody, including every pastor, has
2:30:06different spiritual gifts. Let me get
2:30:09like, bro, you don't want me counseling
2:30:10you. It's [laughter] like, you know,
2:30:13when [snorts] I I used to do some
2:30:14counseling, I'm just not great at it.
2:30:16I'm like, hey, man, quit doing that. You
2:30:17know, let me pray for you and here's a
2:30:19sermon to listen to. You know,
2:30:20[laughter] but we have people on our
2:30:22team who like, you know, I'm not the
2:30:24best preacher in the world, but God's
2:30:26given me some good ability there. We
2:30:29have guys on our team who are like, they
2:30:32are way more anointed and gifted to
2:30:35personally counsel somebody going
2:30:37through a really traumatic thing than I
2:30:40ever will be. So, I want to try to get
2:30:42them to the pastor that can help best
2:30:45help them. Now the last thing that we do
2:30:47is, you know, we just never want to get
2:30:49to the spot where the shepherds don't
2:30:51smell like sheep. So we constantly got
2:30:53people in our house. We lead at our
2:30:55church called a rooted group. It's a
2:30:57little disciplehip group. And Jan and I,
2:30:59we usually lead at least one per year.
2:31:01Last time we just led a big disciplehip
2:31:02group of 30 young adults, just sort of
2:31:04random young adults, bunch of kids
2:31:06sitting around our living room and we're
2:31:07just discipling 30 kids in church. or if
2:31:11I hear sometimes about somebody that's
2:31:13like going through it, like I'll just
2:31:15tell I'll just tell you, man, we had one
2:31:18of my favorite church members in our
2:31:19whole church just died of cancer. He's
2:31:21hugging Jesus now. Kelly Gudro,
2:31:24best dude ever.
2:31:26Uh for the last part of Kelly, Kelly's
2:31:29life, you know, I'm calling Kelly and
2:31:32checking up on him. I'm praying with
2:31:34him. I'm seeing if I Hey man, what kind
2:31:37of you know and I you know we we
2:31:39interacted almost every day for the last
2:31:41however many time. So what I try to do
2:31:44is do for one what you wish you could do
2:31:48for all and stay connected to the sheep.
2:31:50Does that make sense?
2:31:51>> Does make sense.
2:31:52>> That's what I try to do.
2:31:55>> Does make sense. And I get it. I mean
2:31:59I'm not a pastor but got a lot of people
2:32:02that watch this. a lot of people that
2:32:04want to come on here.
2:32:07I look for the biggest impacts.
2:32:13Biggest way I can make an impact.
2:32:17Let's move into
2:32:20passing the torch being in
2:32:24how do you get your kids? How do you get
2:32:26young adults? How do you how do you how
2:32:29do you really I mean like I told you,
2:32:31you know, I grew up Catholic, went to
2:32:33church every Sunday, did the Sunday
2:32:35school thing, and it never sunk in. It
2:32:39never sunk in until
2:32:42till I got slapped around by God a
2:32:44[laughter] little bit, you know,
2:32:46and uh and then it sunk in.
2:32:49>> And uh but you know, hopefully not
2:32:52everybody has to go through what I go
2:32:53through.
2:32:54>> Mhm.
2:32:54>> Cuz it's tough. Mhm.
2:32:56>> Real tough.
2:32:58>> And
2:33:00so, how do you successfully pass the
2:33:03torch and get them to get it?
2:33:05>> Mhm.
2:33:05>> Like really get it. Not just sit there,
2:33:09you know? I mean, I I'm still Catholic,
2:33:12you know. I bring my kids, but, you
2:33:14know, bringing a bringing a 5-year-old
2:33:16to a Catholic mass is like torture.
2:33:18>> Good luck, sir.
2:33:19>> You know, but I mean, how do you know,
2:33:20how do you how do you get the little
2:33:22guys engaged? How do you get him to get
2:33:25it without having to get knocked around?
2:33:30>> Yeah. Well, [clears throat] one, um, I
2:33:33don't want to give somebody a promise
2:33:35that's not a promise. So, let me just
2:33:38say here, here's why I say that. Like as
2:33:41a pastor, what I've learned is when I
2:33:43say what I'm about to say about how to
2:33:45do it, what you're going to have is
2:33:47hundreds of thousands or millions of
2:33:50dads, moms, grandpas, grandmas
2:33:54that when I say what I'm about to say,
2:33:56they're going to get overwhelmed with
2:33:58regret of what they wish they did.
2:34:00>> And they're going to start blaming
2:34:01themselves for their kid getting
2:34:05sideways or going prodigal or whatever.
2:34:07So, here's my caveat. I
2:34:10>> it only works for you. You know what I
2:34:11mean? It's just one way. There's there's
2:34:14a hundred different ways to do this. I'm
2:34:15asking how you do it.
2:34:16>> Okay. Okay. That's good. That helps.
2:34:18>> And your way wouldn't necessarily work
2:34:20on everybody else. But I'm just curious,
2:34:22you know,
2:34:22>> how do you do it?
2:34:23>> Yeah.
2:34:25>> All right. That's good. That's good. All
2:34:26right. My caveat for those people to
2:34:30dovetail you making that point is I do
2:34:34not see a promise in the scripture that
2:34:36if you do this 100% of the time your
2:34:39kids will turn out this way. Okay. My
2:34:41example of that is garden of Eden.
2:34:43Garden of [clears throat] Eden. You've
2:34:44got a perfect father. God's a father.
2:34:45That's pretty perfect. You got a perfect
2:34:47father. You actually have perfect kids.
2:34:49Adam and Eve don't got a sin nature yet.
2:34:51And you have a perfect environment.
2:34:53Eden. There's no it's a perfect So you
2:34:55have perfect father, perfect kids,
2:34:57perfect environment, and they still
2:34:58rebelled.
2:35:00So I will just say, hey man, give
2:35:01yourself some grace. You know, that kind
2:35:03of thing. Now, I'll tell you as far as
2:35:06how I'm doing it. My kids are 15,
2:35:0911, and seven. So I I'll be honest, man.
2:35:12Uh jury is still out. We'll see. We'll
2:35:15see if I do my job. Uh but I do know uh
2:35:20I'm I'm going to give it everything I
2:35:21got.
2:35:23Um,
2:35:25let me here's uh here's why like here's
2:35:28what my dad did that I'm like that
2:35:31worked and I'm doing it with my kids and
2:35:34I'm going that seems like that's
2:35:36working. Okay. I say three things.
2:35:39Okay. Uh, number one, uh, your faith
2:35:42doesn't got to be perfect. It does got
2:35:44to be real.
2:35:46So, like, dude, I remember being a
2:35:48little kid growing up in church and my
2:35:51dad's sitting in the front row and uh
2:35:53you know, we're we're worshiping,
2:35:55singing hymns or whatever. And my dad's
2:35:57like not a super emotional guy, but like
2:36:00I remember watching dad and like just a
2:36:02little his eyes would just start
2:36:03sweating just a little bit, you know?
2:36:06And I remember being 13, 14, 15, 16 and
2:36:09watching that and being like, that man
2:36:12is not just leading a service. That man
2:36:16is worshiping his God.
2:36:18And I remember thinking like, man,
2:36:21I want I want to know who he knows. He
2:36:24he he knows somebody. I want to know his
2:36:27God cuz that's real. Like I remember and
2:36:29there's a million times I saw stuff like
2:36:31that. Like, whoa, whoa, that's real.
2:36:34Okay. So, it doesn't got to be perfect.
2:36:36We're going to need grace, but it does
2:36:38got to be real.
2:36:40Number [snorts] two
2:36:42is uh what everybody tells you when when
2:36:44you're younger, uh you're a new parent
2:36:46is like, "Hey, man, here's a secret. You
2:36:49know, here here's a secret, Sean. Uh you
2:36:51got to get down in their world. You
2:36:52know, if they're into Blue Eyee, you're
2:36:54into Blue Eyee." you know, if they're in
2:36:56a Coco Melon, you're in a Coca-Cal
2:37:01[snorts]
2:37:12kicks in. And oh, by the way, reality's
2:37:14undefeated. And uh I'm going to say
2:37:16something with a bit of an edge to it,
2:37:18but like again, reality is undefeated.
2:37:20Uh kids are fools.
2:37:23We like we got a Bible verse for that.
2:37:24Foolishness is bound up in the heart of
2:37:25a child. Kids are fools. Their default
2:37:27mode is foolishness. That's why they
2:37:30need moms and dads. Godly moms and dads.
2:37:32Okay. So, here's the thing. I don't need
2:37:35to get down into their world as they get
2:37:38older. Their world is full of rebellious
2:37:40rebellion and foolishness. I don't want
2:37:42to get down in their world of rebellion
2:37:44and foolishness. Instead of getting down
2:37:46in their world, I want to pull them up
2:37:48into my world. So, here's what I started
2:37:51to see. Like my dad, he's a pastor. He's
2:37:53got a good band of brothers. I remember
2:37:55growing up, it's like every I think it
2:37:57was Tuesday night. I remember growing up
2:37:59their whole disciplehip group was coming
2:38:00over, bunch of couples that like they
2:38:02were awesome. Like they were like like
2:38:04actual normal people that loved Jesus
2:38:06and loved each other and had fun lives,
2:38:08you know. I'm seeing all them like
2:38:11[clears throat] opening that book like
2:38:12talking about it and you know, all that
2:38:13stuff. So then I get a little older and
2:38:17my dad started doing this thing and
2:38:19looking back I'm like I know what he was
2:38:20doing. I didn't know what he was doing
2:38:21in the moment. My dad started doing this
2:38:23thing where like the church staff who
2:38:26were all awesome, they would like go out
2:38:28for lunch and my dad would be like, "Hey
2:38:31Josh, [clears throat]
2:38:33uh you want to duck out of the thing you
2:38:34got today? Why don't you come to lunch
2:38:36uh with with the staff today?"
2:38:39So then here's here's what's happening
2:38:41is now he's pulling me up into his
2:38:44world. and his world was full of wisdom
2:38:46and righteousness and he's pulling me
2:38:49out of my world of rebellion and
2:38:51foolishness. So then I'm growing up
2:38:53around all these people and I'm dude I'm
2:38:56growing up going man the people that I
2:38:58respect the most. I'm like it's Jeff
2:39:00Carlile that's one of my dad's adult
2:39:02buddies. It's this like I can I can name
2:39:04all the families to this day. And what
2:39:07that did is I grew up sitting around at
2:39:09those lunches or at our home and going
2:39:11you know I want to be the type of person
2:39:13that can fit in with these people
2:39:15instead of looking at like foolish
2:39:17rebellion rebellious kids and doing that
2:39:19thing. So, like Hillary Clinton wrote
2:39:21that. Was it a book that she wrote? I
2:39:22think called It Takes a It It Takes a
2:39:24Village, something like that. I can't
2:39:25remember. She She wrote something. I
2:39:27can't remember what it was. That's a
2:39:29lie.
2:39:31That's I'll just tell you right now,
2:39:33that's a lie. Okay. Uh because if the
2:39:36village that you're using to raise your
2:39:38kids is a bunch of like woke pagan
2:39:41secular swifties or whatever, if that's
2:39:44the village, well, if the village is a
2:39:47bunch of pagans, they're just going to
2:39:49help raise a whole bunch of other
2:39:51pagans.
2:39:52So, you don't need a village here.
2:39:54Here's what you need as a dad. You need
2:39:56a redeemed village. The Bible calls that
2:39:59a church.
2:40:01So, I was like, I got to grow up. What
2:40:03I'm doing right now, I'm doing exactly
2:40:05what my dad did. Like, I'm I was like,
2:40:06literally this week, yesterday was our
2:40:10all staff meeting at Sure. It's so
2:40:11funny. I didn't even think about this. I
2:40:13literally yesterday did what my dad did
2:40:14growing up. My dad's awesome. Uh,
2:40:17yesterday was our all staff meeting. My
2:40:1915-year-old Elelliana right now, she
2:40:21loves Jesus. She loves people. And
2:40:23there's a call there's like a there's a
2:40:24little grace on her life leading
2:40:25worship, you know? She she loves serving
2:40:27at church, love doing that stuff. So
2:40:29[clears throat] yesterday I'm like,
2:40:30"Hey, why don't you That's so funny,
2:40:33dude. I exactly what my dad did. I was
2:40:35like, "Hey, Lyanna, why don't you duck
2:40:37out of what you got today and come to
2:40:38staff meeting with me and your mom?"
2:40:41So what's she doing? She's sitting
2:40:43around, I don't know, 400 pastors and
2:40:47their wives and people who love the Lord
2:40:49and they're they're trying to serve him
2:40:51and and that's who she's around. Well,
2:40:53what am I doing? I'm not getting down
2:40:55into her world. I'm pulling her up into
2:40:58my world. Okay. Uh, last thing I'd say
2:41:02is uh is uh and I by the way I got these
2:41:06from a buddy of mine named Josh
2:41:07McFersonen. He's probably the best dad
2:41:08I've ever seen. Uh is whoever tells the
2:41:12best stories wins. Dude, this is a total
2:41:17this is a total cheat code parenting
2:41:19hack, man.
2:41:20Huh? So, what's interesting if you go
2:41:23back and next time you read your Old
2:41:25Testament,
2:41:26you'll notice all these times where like
2:41:29God does like this amazing thing, parts
2:41:32the Red Sea or defeats AI or whatever it
2:41:35is. And then he tells all the people,
2:41:38"Hey, before [clears throat] you leave,
2:41:41will you guys please set up a big pile
2:41:44of rocks right here?" And uh you know
2:41:48and the Hebrew word is there's a hymn
2:41:51that if if you're listening you grew up
2:41:53singing those old hymns there's an old
2:41:54hymn called come thou fountain
2:41:58and one of the lyrics of come thou
2:42:00fountain is here I raise my ebenezer is
2:42:03what what that word ebenezer it comes
2:42:07from two Hebrew words oh I said it I'm
2:42:09just realizing I said it wrong earlier
2:42:12two Hebrew words ean aazar which means
2:42:15stone of help. Okay.
2:42:18So, what all those little rocks were
2:42:20that God said, "Pile those up." is he
2:42:22was going, "Hey, all throughout this
2:42:25little country the size of New Jersey
2:42:27where you're raising all your kids,
2:42:30um, every time you walk past one of
2:42:32these piles of rocks, God was going,
2:42:35"Hey, hey, Dad, what I want you to do is
2:42:38stop and you're going to point at that
2:42:40rock and tell your son, man, when Papa
2:42:45was here 60 years ago,
2:42:48he was standing right there and him and
2:42:51all his buddies, they marched around
2:42:52that city seven times, son. And you're
2:42:55never going to believe what happened.
2:42:57The Lord gave us this promise.
2:42:59You don't got to fight. You just got to
2:43:01be still and I'll fight for you. And
2:43:04son, you're never going to believe this.
2:43:06But our God is so powerful that when
2:43:08your grandpa was over there and did it,
2:43:11God conquered that thing. And and so
2:43:14they grew up telling all these stories.
2:43:16So So here here's the deal. God was
2:43:19wiring into how the the culture was
2:43:24structured. He was giving all the dads
2:43:26and moms, here's all your story
2:43:30opportunity. So for me growing up, like
2:43:34us sitting around the dinner table at
2:43:36night, you know, it's like I was just
2:43:38constantly hearing all these stories.
2:43:39Dad would come home from work and I was
2:43:42constantly just hearing all these
2:43:43stories about man this widow that
2:43:45somebody just gave her a car and I just
2:43:48cuz they out of nowhere and this
2:43:50marriage got healed and guys that addict
2:43:53that we've been praying for for 3 months
2:43:54they just got free and you know I was
2:43:57just hearing all these stories and it
2:43:59just it just it just gripped me and the
2:44:03older I got I was like well I want to be
2:44:04a part of the thing where all that cool
2:44:07stuff happens you know and it just
2:44:09rubbed off on me. So, I I think the
2:44:12thing I say that the the just
2:44:14encouragement I'd give to, you know,
2:44:15guys who are in the thick of parenting
2:44:16like you and me and all the all the guys
2:44:19listening, trying to figure it out,
2:44:20doing their imperfect best just like me,
2:44:24is man, the most significant thing you
2:44:28do with your life if you're a father,
2:44:31it's probably not going to be something
2:44:33you accomplish.
2:44:35It's probably going to be somebody you
2:44:37raise.
2:44:39So, pour it all in. It's cool you said
2:44:41that. Training your replacement.
2:44:46[clears throat]
2:44:48>> It's good stuff, man.
2:44:49>> That's what we're doing.
2:44:50>> Thank you.
2:44:51>> Yes, sir.
2:44:53>> I got one last question. It's a hot
2:44:55question.
2:44:55>> Oh, buddy.
2:44:58>> Actually have one here, but I got my
2:44:59own.
2:45:00>> Okay.
2:45:04What is your favorite miracle that Jesus
2:45:06performed in the Bible and why?
2:45:11>> Well, am I allowed to cheat and go
2:45:13resurrection? You know,
2:45:16>> let's do it. All right. [laughter] All
2:45:18right.
2:45:20You know,
2:45:23uh other than that one.
2:45:25>> That one. Dang, man. Oh, that's fire.
2:45:29That's good. All right.
2:45:32This is shooting from the hip. If you if
2:45:33I have more time, I might think of
2:45:35something else. [snorts]
2:45:37[clears throat]
2:45:37All right. I I think it's I think it's
2:45:40when Jesus touches the leper and he
2:45:45heals him.
2:45:48>> Can you go into it? Can you tell the
2:45:49story?
2:45:50>> Yeah. Well, he heals lepers a few times.
2:45:53Okay. And honestly, there's not much
2:45:56description to this miracle, but there's
2:46:00a specific time or maybe a couple times
2:46:02in the Gospels where Jesus reaches out
2:46:04and he touches the leper. Now, there but
2:46:06there's a reason that like most people
2:46:09it's not the kind of thing you see.
2:46:11There's a reason that's my favorite.
2:46:14Okay? Might might be my favorite. So, in
2:46:17the Old Testament, there's all these
2:46:19laws about what to do with somebody
2:46:21that's got leprosy.
2:46:23And in the Old Testament, um, if you had
2:46:26leprosy, you were ceremonially unclean.
2:46:29And the kind of the rules were that if a
2:46:33clean person touches an unclean person,
2:46:36the unclean person makes the clean
2:46:38person unclean.
2:46:41So then, you know, what you would have
2:46:43to do if you had leprosy is in that
2:46:45time, you would have to stand, you know,
2:46:47according to tradition, maybe 50 paces
2:46:48away from somebody and you'd have to
2:46:50yell unclean, unclean, unclean. [snorts]
2:46:52So when I read that miracle about Jesus
2:46:56just walking right up to the guy and you
2:46:59know he's like hey will you make me
2:47:00clean you know and Jesus is like you
2:47:02know I will and he touches him I will be
2:47:05clean
2:47:07one that guy that had spent his entire
2:47:10life having everybody stay 50 paces
2:47:12away. Jesus walks up and he's like man
2:47:15I'd really like to get right up in
2:47:18I want to get right up where you are. I
2:47:20want to be close to you, brother. Got to
2:47:21get close to you. And then when Jesus
2:47:24touches him, it heals him. And for the
2:47:28first time in the entire Bible, instead
2:47:30of when a clean person touches an
2:47:32unclean thing, the unclean thing makes
2:47:34the clean thing unclean. Jesus works it
2:47:37backwards.
2:47:38And because he's clean, the clean thing
2:47:42touches the unclean thing, and the clean
2:47:45thing makes the unclean thing clean.
2:47:49And it's like a it's a picture of what
2:47:52happens when you by faith and repentance
2:47:55reach out and touch Jesus Christ. And
2:47:58when you touch him, he makes you clean.
2:48:03>> That's a good
2:48:04>> I love it.
2:48:05>> How did the people react to that?
2:48:08>> Well, in different times they reacted
2:48:10different ways. A lot of people did not
2:48:12like it when Jesus did healings. Uh they
2:48:15did not like it.
2:48:16>> Why? uh because it messed with a lot of
2:48:20their uh their traditions that had built
2:48:24up around the thing. In fact, uh one of
2:48:27the uh things that uh sets off the
2:48:30series of events that leads to the
2:48:31crucifixion of Jesus is him healing
2:48:34people on Sabbaths.
2:48:36They were like, "Hey man, you ain't
2:48:38allowed to." That was like one of their
2:48:40little rules. So what legalist what
2:48:42legalistic people do is they take the
2:48:44rules that God actually gave in the
2:48:45Bible and then legalistic people add
2:48:47rules to the rules and then they condemn
2:48:49you for not obeying the rules they added
2:48:51to the rules that actually God didn't
2:48:52make in the first place. And they did
2:48:54that with the Sabbath laws.
2:48:57I think they're called the tarams. They
2:48:59did that with the Sabbath laws. They
2:49:00took one command. Hey, don't do work on
2:49:02the Sabbath. Keep it holy as unto the
2:49:05Lord. And they add a bunch of rules
2:49:07about well what counts as work. And then
2:49:09they added rules to the rules and and
2:49:10ended up all this time. Well, one of
2:49:12their rules was, hey, no healing on the
2:49:13Sabbath, you know, which is real dumb.
2:49:15Like, God never said that. And uh so one
2:49:18of the reasons that they got mad is,
2:49:22well, you're breaking our our little
2:49:24religious tradition. You're making us
2:49:26look like idiots. We said you couldn't
2:49:28do this and you're doing it.
2:49:30I just I never understood that, you
2:49:32know. It seems and and I'm not
2:49:34wellversed. I read it. I don't
2:49:36understand out the stuff I'm reading.
2:49:37But when I read that, you know, the
2:49:39miracles that he did, it seems like the
2:49:42people were pissed every single time he
2:49:44performed one very frequently.
2:49:46>> But I I don't understand. I mean, like
2:49:48he's doing unexplainable
2:49:52things unless you have faith in God.
2:49:56>> And so what I mean, he's doing it right
2:49:58in front of them.
2:49:59>> Mhm.
2:50:02>> How are they How are [laughter] they
2:50:04pissed? How do they not get it? Well, I
2:50:06think two things, you know. I think one,
2:50:09it was a threat to their fame and and
2:50:12religious sort of the power that they
2:50:14had. It's like, hey, quit quit busting
2:50:17up our thing. We're the ones that are in
2:50:19charge of all the all the stuff. So,
2:50:21when Jesus kind of, you know, he kind of
2:50:23rolls in and starts breaking their
2:50:25thing, there's two things the Bible says
2:50:27about the Pharisees. Now, there's
2:50:29actually a time where Jesus pronounces
2:50:30woes on the Pharisees, and I won't be
2:50:32able to rattle them all off the top of
2:50:33my head, but he gives seven woes. And
2:50:35it's essentially like, here's what's
2:50:36wrong with you. You know, uh you know,
2:50:39uh you ask people to tithe a a tenth of
2:50:43this and and you neglect the weight of
2:50:44your matters of the law, justice and
2:50:46mercy, and loving your neighbor. And he
2:50:48goes through like seven different
2:50:49things. But two things the Bible that uh
2:50:51Jesus says about the Pharisees is they
2:50:53loved the praise of men more than the
2:50:55praise of God. So, one, what they cared
2:50:58about, like you're like, "Hey, man. Why
2:50:59wouldn't they want people to have faith
2:51:01in God?" Because that that really wasn't
2:51:03they cared, that's not what they cared
2:51:04out of a about a whole lot. What they
2:51:07cared about a whole lot was people
2:51:08thinking they were awesome. Power.
2:51:12Yes. They loved the praise of men more
2:51:14than they loved the praise of God. I
2:51:16think power plays into that. And they
2:51:18were like, "Man, what we really care
2:51:19about in their heart of hearts,
2:51:22everybody cheering us on and applauding
2:51:24us and us." That's and then it does say
2:51:28that they loved money that they and so I
2:51:31think those two things if Jesus rolls in
2:51:32and busts up their thing, that's a
2:51:35threat to their two things.
2:51:38>> Right on.
2:51:40Well, it's good miracle, but I like
2:51:42that.
2:51:42>> I like it, too. Like how you told that.
2:51:44Thank you.
2:51:45>> Well, Josh, it was an honor, man. Josh,
2:51:48>> it's my honor. Thank you.
2:51:50>> Thank you.
2:51:50>> I appreciate you.
2:51:51>> God bless.
2:51:52>> Yes, [music] sir.
2:52:05No matter where you're watching the
2:52:07Shawn Ryan Show from, if you get
2:52:09anything out of this at all, anything,
2:52:12please like, comment, and subscribe. And
2:52:16most importantly, share this everywhere
2:52:20you possibly can. And if you're feeling
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