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Joseph McCarthy and Roy Cohn (featuring Larry Tye, author of Demagogue) — Transcript

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0:05this episode is brought to you by Our
0:07Daily Bread Ministries a global media
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0:11life-changing wisdom of the Bible
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0:15visit where you're from.or for more
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0:21hey everyone this is a bonus episode
0:24while you wait for season 6 to begin it
0:26doesn't quite fit into season 5 about
0:29the history of fundamental ISM and it's
0:31doesn't really fit into season 6 it's
0:33just an important story I tried to get
0:36today's guest for the show a few years
0:38ago and we finally were able to make it
0:40happen so I jumped on the chance and
0:42season 6 is coming along nicely I've got
0:45several episodes locked and I'm in the
0:47process of completing several more it's
0:49such a complicated story that I want to
0:51have a good deal of it completed before
0:52I start releasing so I don't fall behind
0:55I'll keep you posted also this show
0:57usually covers history as it relates to
0:59the Christian Church this episode does
1:02not have that direct bent but its
1:04reverberations are felt in both season 3
1:07and season 6 so it's well worth covering
1:11okay here's the
1:13bonus so a lot of people Democrats and
1:16Republicans were understandably worried
1:19about what they thought was not just
1:22communist expansion abroad which people
1:26thought rightly or wrongly was a threat
1:28to an American and Democratic way of
1:31life but they were very concerned about
1:33whether we had spies in our own
1:35government this is Larry Ty my name is
1:38Larry Tai I'm an author and I've written
1:40books on a range of strange characters
1:43ranging from Superman to Bobby Kennedy
1:47from the Pullman porters the black men
1:49who worked on railroads to Satchel Page
1:52and most recently Joe McCarthy that's
1:55who we're talking about today Senator
1:57Joseph McCarthy one of those rare indiv
1:59uals to have his own ISM that's
2:02McCarthyism which Larry covers in his
2:04book demagogue the Russian Revolution
2:07happened in 1917 with the fall of the
2:10romanof dynasty from that time on
2:12leaders in the United States government
2:14watched Russia with suspicion how would
2:17communism play out would it be a threat
2:20we know now with the benefit of
2:22hindsight that it meant the death of
2:24millions of people first in Russia then
2:27in China and elsewhere it also placed
2:29the United States at odds with communist
2:31powers in what would become known as the
2:33cold war that struggle dragged much of
2:35the third world into the conflict as we
2:37vied for who would control natural
2:39resources in the southern hemisphere
2:41there was real worry that Communists
2:43would infiltrate the United States
2:45people like Harry Truman took that
2:47concern uh to a level of imposing the
2:51strictest loyalty codes that we had ever
2:54had for government workers where
2:55essentially it was almost assumed that
2:57you were guilty of disloyalty unless you
3:00could prove your loyalty and in Congress
3:03that took the form of the house on
3:05American Activities Committee which well
3:08before Joe McCarthy had been going after
3:11what they thought were communist spies
3:13and which in their case sometimes proved
3:15to be true there were actual Spies Like
3:18K CLA fuches who stole nuclear secrets
3:20from the Manhattan Project and gave them
3:22to the Soviets or the controversial
3:25Julius and Ethel Rosenberg who were put
3:27to death for smuggling government
3:28secrets house on American Activities
3:31Committee was formed in 1938 before
3:34World War II began and before the
3:36Soviets became our allies they found
3:38spies the names of whom wouldn't mean
3:42much to listeners today but they were
3:44people ranging from senior people in the
3:49White House to people um throughout the
3:53government and as Joe McCarthy
3:55understood well the agency of government
3:58that seemed to be most riddled with
4:02spies or at least that's the way it
4:05appeared was the US state department
4:07which was the agency that was setting
4:09our foreign policy so it was
4:11understandably scary to people when we
4:13were watching Russia suddenly develop
4:16its atomic bomb when we were seeing
4:19stories of Russian expansion around the
4:22world to think that uh there could be
4:26Communists and spies within our own
4:28government was a scary Prospect keep
4:31that in mind today with all the movies
4:33that make light of the Cold War it may
4:35seem like the threat was overplayed but
4:38as a country we were legitimately
4:40concerned about nuclear weapons labor
4:43protests civil rights demonstrations and
4:45evolving ideas about taking care of the
4:47elderly or unemployed had people seeing
4:50Communists behind every door starting in
4:541947 federal employees had to give a
4:56loyalty oath the FBI investigated anyone
4:59thought thought to be even a little
5:01suspicious 4.8 million people were
5:03screened in 6 years with over 26,000
5:07people investigated by the FBI perhaps
5:09the most famous person on the hunt for
5:11Communists in the government was Senator
5:14Joseph McCarthy a man who not only
5:16accused Communists but bullied strong
5:19armed and played the media to get what
5:21he wanted and even today we still feel
5:24the Echoes of
5:26McCarthyism you're listening to the show
5:28that uses journalistic tools to look
5:30inside the Christian church we press
5:32pause on the culture wars in order to
5:34explore how we got here and how we can
5:36do better I'm Chris staron and this is
5:47truce as a Young Man Joe McCarthy raised
5:50chickens then managed a grocery store in
5:53Wisconsin he wanted more but hadn't
5:56graduated high school so at 20 years old
5:59he went back to school and knocked out
6:01all four grades in one year then he went
6:04to college became a small town lawyer
6:06and a Circuit Judge he played cards
6:09gambled and was always in money trouble
6:11he drank heavily and was a tough boxer
6:14when World War II broke out he enlisted
6:16so his military career contains a
6:19perfect look at Joe McCarthy the good
6:22and the bad of mcarthy uh the good was
6:26that he had when he was running for
6:28Senate proclaimed himself a World War II
6:31hero he had told stories about his
6:34exploits in the South Pacific island
6:36where he was stationed for the US Marine
6:39Corps his exploits going up in Planes as
6:42a tail Gunner something that folks in
6:44the media later investigated but could
6:46not corroborate when he later became a
6:48senator the man talked a big game but
6:51couldn't always produce proof when he
6:52needed it they mocked him by calling him
6:55tail Gunner Joe and they looked and
6:57thought that he his record was one of in
6:59fact being officially stationed on the
7:01ground and what the heck was he doing
7:03claiming to have been a war hero up in
7:05Plains he wasn't assigned to work in the
7:08air how could he have been a tail Gunner
7:10when the military had him on the ground
7:12for a long time people thought these
7:14stories were just more hot air from Joe
7:16McCarthy but Larry did some sleuthing
7:19when I started writing my book there was
7:21a trove of all of McCarthy's personal
7:24and professional papers that his widow
7:26had left to his alamada which was Mar K
7:30University in Milwaukee and she left
7:32them with a provision that those papers
7:35would become public when either of two
7:38things happened either when Joe
7:41McCarthy's daughter died or when this
7:44daughter who was younger than me and
7:46alive and well said yes the paper should
7:49become public for years Joe's daughter
7:51either denied her request to see the
7:53documents or flat out said no but for
7:56Larry one day I got a note from the
7:59archist at Marquette saying to our shock
8:02the daughter has said that you can have
8:04access to the papers and that the day
8:06you stop looking they go under lock and
8:09key again and surprisingly he discovered
8:11that McCarthy was telling the truth that
8:14while his official Duty was as a
8:16landbased intelligence officer he
8:19volunteered for Missions he volunteered
8:22to fly in the back of a plane as a tail
8:24Gunner and he put himself at huge risk
8:27of being shot down when he didn't have
8:30to do that he was a war hero Larry was
8:33able to find the documentary evidence
8:34that had evaded journalists for decades
8:37I think the lesson to me is if you lie
8:40often enough and Joe McCarthy lied often
8:42enough when you're telling the truth
8:44people might not believe
8:46you Joe lied in other ways for example
8:50he told people he enlisted at the bottom
8:52and then worked his way up when in fact
8:54he started as an officer before the war
8:57he told folks that he was the youngest
8:58Circuit Judge in the history of the
9:00state also not true in life as in
9:03gambling McCarthy bluffed often and when
9:07he did he went all in he was also a
9:11democrat in a red State voted for FDR
9:14three times and even liked the New Deal
9:17he saw that being a democrat in
9:18Wisconsin wasn't going to get him far so
9:21with an eye on the US Senate he switched
9:23parties running while still in the
9:26Marines was illegal as was made clear
9:29and rulings from the top levels of the
9:31Pentagon for soldiers to be campaigning
9:34for them to mix their military service
9:37with their politics but Joe McCarthy
9:39strung banners across his tent and
9:42across his Jeep basically proclaiming
9:44his campaign for the US Senate and there
9:47weren't a whole lot of votes in his
9:48Wisconsin District in his South Pacific
9:51island but back home people ate up the
9:53idea of electing a marine who was
9:55fighting for the country yes it was
9:58illegal to campaign but McCarthy was
10:01never one to let the law get in the way
10:03of what he wanted yeah so what he was
10:05doing was mailing or having his family
10:08and his friends mail tens of thousands
10:11of postcards and other material through
10:14the mail as part of his campaign
10:16something that will be a theme next
10:18season Direct Mail allows people like
10:21Joe to circumvent traditional media and
10:23tell people what they want to hear
10:25without the fact Checkers getting
10:26involved and that was one of a doz dozen
10:29ways in which Joe McCarthy's politicking
10:33anticipated what is going on in today's
10:35politics he understood every form of the
10:39media and exploited it whether it was
10:42newspaper coverage whether it was direct
10:44mail whether it was embellishing what he
10:47was doing and assuming the Press would
10:49never catch up to his embellishments or
10:51would catch up too late McCarthy
10:53understood the media well and he used it
10:56to his benefit this time the bluff
10:59worked so he beats an entrenched Senator
11:02a longtime senator from Wisconsin named
11:05lafallet and the lafalot were to
11:08Wisconsin what the taffs were to Ohio
11:11and what the Kennedy's were to my native
11:13Massachusetts he took on an icon of the
11:15Senate beats him and then goes on to be
11:18an incredibly undistinguished first-term
11:21Junior senator who looked like he would
11:24be a one-term senator and he was
11:27sufficiently unimpressive
11:29that on the famous the most famous day
11:31in Republican party circles is the day
11:35honoring Abraham Lincoln in this case it
11:37was February 9th 1950 Republican
11:40politicians are invited to give speeches
11:42all around the country and prominent
11:44senators get invited to places like Los
11:48Angeles and San Francisco New York and
11:51Boston politicians like Joe McCarthy who
11:55were total
11:56backbenchers got invited in his case to
11:59Wheeling West Virginia it's this moment
12:02that launched McCarthy into the
12:04spotlight and he shows up that night in
12:06Wheeling West Virginia with a briefcase
12:08containing two speeches one was a speech
12:11on National Housing policy and had he
12:14read that speech that night 75 years
12:18later we wouldn't be here talking about
12:20Joe McCarthy but instead he reached
12:22deeper into his briefcase he pulled out
12:24a speech he waved it in the air and said
12:28I have in my hand a list of all kinds of
12:32spies at the US state department and in
12:35other critical places in the US
12:37government and these are spies who are
12:39dangerous to our country these are spies
12:41who President Truman either does know
12:43about or should have known about and
12:45these are spies that I promise I'm going
12:47to expose and weed out here is an actor
12:50reading from the speech there the bright
12:52young men who are born with silver
12:54spoons in their mouths are the ones who
12:57have been most traitorous I have in my
13:00hand a list of
13:01205 a list of names that were made known
13:04to the Secretary of State as being
13:06members of the Communist party and who
13:09nevertheless are still working and
13:11shaping policy in the state department
13:13it's not just a claim about Communists
13:16it's also a populist statement calling
13:18members of the state department bright
13:20young men who are born with silver
13:22spoons in their mouths smearing the east
13:24and west coast Elites was a trademark of
13:27McCarthyism now what he had in his hand
13:29that night might have been his wife's
13:31grocery list it might have been a
13:34recycled set of of spies from the uh
13:37house on American Activities Committee
13:40but what we know he didn't have in his
13:41hand is a list of the uh 24 Karat
13:45goldplated spies that he claimed despite
13:48the Bluster he didn't have the goods and
13:51he never produced that list even though
13:53journalists beg for it and members of
13:55Congress wanted to see it but he learned
13:58a very important lesson that night that
14:01if you make an extraordinary charge like
14:04the government being riddled with spies
14:07that it will get coverage in every
14:10newspaper not just in America but around
14:13the world and by the time the Press
14:15catches up and tries to really look
14:18clearly at whether the people he named
14:21were spies and decides to publish their
14:25responses his story is on page one their
14:28story a day or to later is next to the
14:30corset ads on page 67 Joe McCarthy was
14:34off and running that number 25
14:38Communists is odd he didn't say how he
14:41picked it it may have come from a state
14:43department letter released earlier
14:45claiming that there were 285 staffers
14:48with potentially damaging information on
14:50them and not necessarily Communists they
14:53could have been fascists people with
14:55criminal records or homosexuals in a
14:57time when it was potentially illegal to
14:59be gay there were fears that a person
15:02could be blackmailed into giving up
15:03State Secrets against a threat of being
15:06publicly outed 79 of that 285 were fired
15:11leaving
15:12206 I mean it's not exactly the 25 that
15:15Joe claimed but close enough that may
15:19have been where the number came from but
15:21who knows so I don't know what it was
15:23about the number 205 that appealed Joe
15:27McCarthy but the number as you changeed
15:29from time to time and at one point it
15:31was 57 and people speculated that it may
15:34have been that he was in a restaurant
15:36having his trademark hamburger and
15:39putting Hines 57 sauce on it or it could
15:41have come from anywhere he sometimes
15:43also changed it to 27 depending on the
15:46day there was no basis to his number and
15:50there was no magic or basis to the list
15:54that he would eventually the list that
15:55he ended up producing at various times
15:58which had different numbers and were
16:00always incomplete whatever the number
16:02imaginary or real it made McCarthy a
16:05sensation the story was picked up by
16:07newspapers all over the country and this
16:09junior Senator with no real distinctions
16:12was suddenly everywhere ready to point
16:16fingers he set up an office to
16:18supposedly investigate Communists in the
16:20American government donations poured in
16:22from across the country especially from
16:24Texas where wealthy oilmen ponied up to
16:27his cause Joe forever in debt was known
16:31to pocket what he could Joe's claims
16:33were so big that he himself was
16:35investigated by a congressional
16:37committee within months so Senator
16:40Millard Tidings from Maryland was one of
16:42the most old school and distinguished
16:45senators in that August body and he was
16:50outraged by what McCarthy was doing he
16:52felt that McCarthy was a fraud and he
16:54went after him but Tidings was no
16:58opponent for
16:59a guy who was a street fighter and a
17:01dirty player like Joe McCarthy 1950 was
17:05an election year and tidings was up for
17:08reelection something that McCarthy was
17:11able to play to his Advantage by
17:13campaigning for someone else to take his
17:15opponent's seat he did this with the
17:17same tactics that got him elected using
17:20bulk mail one publication included a
17:23photo of Tidings hanging out with a
17:25known communist the only problem is the
17:28photo wasn't real it was a composite of
17:31other pictures a fake but it did the job
17:36convincing people that Tidings should
17:38not be reelected McCarthy when he was
17:41investigated did all they could to
17:43oppose the investigator running a no
17:46nothing unknown candidate against Miller
17:49Tidings watching that candidate win and
17:53the same way he had done in Wisconsin
17:54when he beat lafallet um another Titan
17:57of the Senate when went down at the
17:59hands of Joe McCarthy he did the same in
18:021952 with another senator who dared
18:04oppose him in return McCarthy gained
18:07power and notoriety and the backing of
18:10everyone he put into
18:13office he received around 2,000 requests
18:17to speak across the country more than
18:19all the other Senators combined his
18:22office got busy making accusations and
18:24trying to substantiate those they'd
18:26already made meanwhile Joe played the
18:29system to stay in the spotlight so he
18:31knew how the Press worked and he knew
18:34that if instead of releasing your
18:36bombshell charges um in the morning when
18:39the Press had all day to investigate
18:41them if you did it in the evening just
18:45before journalist deadline they would
18:47publish your charges in the next day's
18:49paper and then they'd start
18:50investigating them for the next day
18:52after that's paper and he knew that the
18:55countercharges the defense is never as
18:58wrong as the offense and so he knew how
19:02to play The Press with deadlines he knew
19:04how to court reporters to take them out
19:06drinking to shower Praise on them he
19:09knew journalists have egos like
19:11everybody else does and if you leak
19:13things to reporters or made them feel
19:16special they were going to make you feel
19:18special on the front page of their
19:19newspapers using these tactics he
19:21managed to control the story for 4 years
19:24in 1952 the Republicans took control of
19:27the Senate and Joe mcarthy won his place
19:30at the head of the Senate investigations
19:32committee now he not only had the weight
19:34of the Senate but also a budget they've
19:37taken over the majority and suddenly
19:40McCarthy goes from being a backbencher
19:43to being chairman of a very powerful
19:45subcommittee called the permanent
19:47subcommittee on investigations as well
19:50as chair of the overall government
19:51operations committee and he is looking
19:54for just the right aggressive young
19:57staffer to to dig up the kinds of things
20:01that he felt that he needed to dig up to
20:04keep his Crusade going in terms of names
20:07of people he could accuse of being
20:08communists and in terms of what seemed
20:11like damning evidence and he finds this
20:13young ambitious brilliant lawyer in New
20:18York named Roy
20:20con he was a prosecutor of the Rosenberg
20:23trial at just 23 and was every bit as
20:26aggressive as Joe as a reminder the
20:28rosenbergs were executed on charges of
20:30spying for the Communists in the HBO
20:33documentary series about Cohen bully
20:35coward victim person after person calls
20:38him the most evil man they've ever met
20:41he had a gaunt face with big haunting
20:43eyes he was a well-connected bulldog
20:46known not only for dodging taxes but
20:49also failing to pay for everything from
20:51dinners to expensive art he'd later go
20:54on to be a lawyer for the mob he fought
20:57legislation to give equal rights to to
20:58both women and homosexuals despite
21:01himself being gay McCarthy then had to
21:04decide who to make his chief of staff
21:07con or this other guy you've probably
21:09heard of um recent graduate of the
21:12University of Virginia law school named
21:13Robert F Kennedy yes that Robert Kennedy
21:17brother of future President John F
21:19Kennedy their father Joe was a friend of
21:22McCarthy it's possible that this posting
21:24with McCarthy seemed like a way to help
21:26the family name years earlier Joe
21:28Kennedy had advocated for appeasing the
21:30Nazis and likely didn't want to be seen
21:33as doing the same for the Communists
21:35putting his son in touch with the
21:36country's loudest anti-communist
21:39probably seemed like a good move bone
21:41had an advantage over Kennedy he was
21:44Jewish it would be helpful for McCarthy
21:46to give him the top position to put down
21:49allegations that McCarthy was an
21:51anti-semite Joe made Roy Cohen his chief
21:53of staff leaving Bobby to his future
21:56benefit out of the spotlight and con and
21:59McCarthy are off on what Bobby Kennedy
22:02would later describe as a tobogan ride
22:05down a steep hill with no
22:08breaks McCarthy called 546 Witnesses in
22:12just a few years many of the hearings
22:14against protocol were private and may
22:17not have included any other members of
22:18the committee except McCarthy or con
22:21Witnesses were often summoned to testify
22:23the night before they were expected to
22:25appear leaving them little time to
22:27prepare or retain Council some people
22:30chose to plead their Fifth Amendment
22:31rights and if they did McCarthy labeled
22:34them as traitor saying an innocent man
22:36does not need the Fifth Amendment the
22:38name he gave them was Fifth Amendment
22:41Communists 2third of his hearings going
22:43after communist were held behind closed
22:46doors and we never got a peek at them
22:49but recently just before my book came
22:51out the transcripts of all those
22:55hearings suddenly became public there
22:57was a 50-year rule they were under lock
22:59and key for 50 years and suddenly we had
23:02a look at them and what they show is as
23:05bad as we thought that Joe McCarthy was
23:07when he went public with his hearings
23:10when he was behind closed doors and he
23:13and Roy con could really run rough shod
23:17over the rights of witnesses and the
23:19ones who stood up to him not
23:21surprisingly never appeared in public
23:23session because he didn't want to have
23:25eloquent convincing witnesses there the
23:28ones who caved most easily were the ones
23:31who we saw paraded in the public
23:33sessions and all I can say is it would
23:36have been miserable I would never want
23:39to be before any Senate investigative
23:42committee but I sure as heck wouldn't
23:44have want to been before Joe McCarthy's
23:45committee and I wouldn't have want to
23:47been have appeared before Joe McCarthy
23:50in the morning when he was stone cold
23:53sober but I definitely wouldn't want to
23:56appeared before him in the afternoon
23:58after he had had several drinks at lunch
24:01and he was often what was clear from the
24:04transcripts not so sober it's difficult
24:07to quantify the effect these men had on
24:09the country it may not sound that bad to
24:11have to testify before a hearing but it
24:14inflicted a lot of stress One Voice of
24:17America engineer named Raymond Kaplan
24:19threw himself in front of a truck rather
24:21than appear before the hearings another
24:24man named Bob lafallet from the
24:26Congressional Dynasty mentioned earlier
24:28shot himself after having fired a
24:29staffer suspected of being a communist
24:32but not telling the FBI we're talking
24:34about intense social pressure this went
24:38on for years and it's hard for us to
24:40appreciate what it meant to be labeled a
24:42communist or even a fifth amendment
24:44communist it meant potentially losing
24:46all of your friends being asked to leave
24:48your church a divorce your children
24:50harassed at school not just loss of
24:53employment but becoming unemployable we
24:56can just imagine if you're name is
24:59splashed across the newspaper during a
25:01Red Scare era and you're being accused
25:05not just of being a communist which was
25:06bad enough then but you're being accused
25:09of being a communist who sold out your
25:11country that was not something that was
25:14going to stand you well in terms of your
25:16future and your family's future and
25:19McCarthy ruined lives it was a serious
25:22charge leveled willy-nilly by people
25:24with connections to him it was almost a
25:27game he was a great sort of fairly well
25:30kind of guy and he could be leveling
25:33scalding charges against somebody during
25:35the day in his subcommittee and invite
25:38them out for a drink at night because it
25:40all seemed like a game and he thought
25:41everybody understands this is the way
25:45politics Works in Washington and in
25:47America so my book was called demagogue
25:50and my book could as easily have been
25:51called bully because bully is a much
25:53simpler and more easily understood way
25:56of saying the same thing it is somebody
25:58who is like a Schoo yard bully and
26:00that's what Joe McCarthy was though he
26:03left a wake of Destruction he was
26:05immensely popular about half the country
26:08backed McCarthy in what he was doing he
26:10had powerful supporters some of whom
26:12will become important next season like
26:14Howard Jarvis who sparked the tax revolt
26:16in the 1970s and phy Schley the one
26:19woman force of nature who stopped the
26:21Equal Rights Amendment and created the
26:23pro- family movement they were fans of
26:25McCarthy but so were Walt Disney John
26:28Wayne and several heads of the Hollywood
26:30Studios there were people in the FBI
26:34including at the beginning at least Jay
26:35Ed go Hoover who thought McCarthy was
26:37doing more good than harm Hoover and
26:39McCarthy met regularly for lunch and
26:42frequently traded information pack and
26:44forth Hoover would either himself or
26:47have his people leak material to
26:50McCarthy and again in the papers that we
26:52were discussing earlier these papers
26:54that were McCarthy's personal and
26:55professional papers they would have
26:57stamps AC Ross many of the documents
27:00saying top secret and it was very clear
27:02that those papers had been leaked by
27:04somebody to Joe McCarthy and it's also
27:06clear from notes that he wrote in the
27:08margins of some of the papers it's
27:10pretty clear that the leaker was doing
27:14leaking with the authorization at the
27:17very top of the FBI meaning Jed gaho the
27:20leaks demonstrate yet another hypocrisy
27:22in the life of Joseph McCarthy
27:24McCarthy's going after people for
27:26leaking sensitive documents from the US
27:29government and on the other hand he was
27:31using to make those charges sensitive
27:34documents from the US government that
27:35were leaked to him many of which were
27:37just speculation you know an FBI agent
27:40might compile a report on somebody and
27:42have it be something that was entirely
27:46inconclusive but if McCarthy said the
27:49FBI has a file on this
27:52person the fact that it was inconclusive
27:54never made it into the newspaper story
27:56it was that the FBI had a file on that
27:58and that was good enough for Joe
27:59McCarthy and sadly it was good enough
28:01for too many reporters the witch hunts
28:03continued for Years first with his
28:06unofficial Bluster and then with the
28:08full weight of the United States Senate
28:10generating suicides divorces harassment
28:12and fear but the nightmare could not
28:15last forever as some of his enemies knew
28:18all they had to do was give McCarthy
28:20enough rope and he'd hang himself when
28:22he did they'd be ready I'll continue the
28:26story after these messages
28:29is this episode is brought to you by no
28:32small Endeavor the Acclaim podcast from
28:34great feeling Studios and PRX in each
28:37episode host an award-winning Theologian
28:39Lee C Camp sits down with courageous and
28:41impassioned people like Hollywood Legend
28:43Rob Brer and civil rights hero Reverend
28:45James Lawson talking about what it means
28:47to find true happiness and flourish in
28:49day-to-day life and if you're looking
28:51for somewhere to start why not check out
28:53their recent episode with award-winning
28:54journalist and best-selling author Tim
28:56Alberta on Christian nationalism role in
28:58the Republican Party follow no small
29:00Endeavor on Apple podcast Spotify or
29:03wherever you get your podcasts in the
29:051950s Dwight Eisenhower was one of the
29:08most beloved people in the United States
29:10so popular that both the Democrats and
29:13Republicans courted him to run for
29:15president this of course was thanks to
29:17his success leading the American efforts
29:18during World War II Ike was no fan of
29:22Joe McCarthy not since McCarthy went
29:24after his friend George Marshall who
29:26served as chief of staff for the US Army
29:29Secretary of Defense and Secretary of
29:31State he was a hero of the Allied
29:33Victory yet McCarthy accused him of
29:36being a communist that was really
29:38offensive it was untrue of course but it
29:40was really offensive to Dwight
29:42Eisenhower and Dwight Eisenhower had
29:43during the campaign a speech that he was
29:45going to use to attack Joe McCarthy and
29:48defend Senator Marshall and his
29:51political advisers convinced him not to
29:52give that speech and that was the first
29:55time for entirely political motives
29:57because he wanted to be president and he
29:59was worried that he might not get the
30:01nomination or might not get the
30:02electoral votes he needed if the
30:04important state of Wisconsin where Joe
30:07McCarthy was such a powerful figure
30:09voted against him so Eisenhower kept the
30:12speech in his briefcase Joe McCarthy got
30:15away without being attacked by
30:16Eisenhower which could have been very
30:18damaging to him given how popular
30:20Eisenhower was and when Eisenhower
30:22finally made it into the White House
30:24Eisenhower's trusted advisor his brother
30:28mother Milton Eisenhower whispered into
30:31Dwight's ear saying give up a little of
30:34your political capital and take on that
30:36bully Joe McCarthy but it took years for
30:39him to do it Ike's strategy was simple
30:42give McCarthy enough rope and he'll hang
30:44himself but in the intervening year
30:46between Eisenhower taking office and
30:48McCarthy's downfall many lives were
30:51impacted and I think a president who I
30:54greatly respect white eisar who did a
30:56lot of great things for this country I
30:58think one of his biggest faults was
31:00failing to go after Joe McCarthy the way
31:03his brother told him he ought to it led
31:06Larry TI to write that Eisenhower was
31:07quote McCarthy's enabler and chief it's
31:11often said that McCarthy's downfall
31:12began during the famous Army McCarthy
31:14hearings held before Congress Larry
31:17argues that it really started 4 months
31:19earlier when tail Gunner Joe picked an
31:22enemy capable of besting him he attacked
31:25Brigadier General Ralph zwicker who at
31:28first had been a Cooperative witness
31:30someone McCarthy thought to be on his
31:32side essentially a dentist suspected of
31:35being a communist had been promoted by
31:37zwicker when McCarthy learned this he
31:40badgered him publicly here is a
31:42reenactment from the transcript
31:43published in the New York Times General
31:46let's try and be truthful I'm going to
31:48keep you here as long as you keep
31:50hedging and hemming I am not hedging or
31:53hauling I am not hauling and I don't
31:56like to have anyone impune my honesty
31:58which you just did either your honesty
32:01or your intelligence I can't help
32:03imputing one or the other see how nasty
32:07he could be this was not good publicity
32:09for McCarthy especially once the
32:12television cameras were rolling and
32:13Americans got a taste of his
32:15shamelessness zwicker was a war hero but
32:19McCarthy treated him with contempt
32:21people noticed and McCarthy started
32:23losing public support matters only
32:26escalated as Joe ratcheted up his
32:28accusations of the army I think he went
32:30after the Army because it had all gone
32:32to his head he was enough of a
32:34narcissist that he thought that there
32:36was nobody too big for him to take on
32:39and he said that there were spies in the
32:43Army and specifically at a base called
32:46Fort Monmouth which was a critical
32:49intelligence base of the US military he
32:52said those spies were dangerous they
32:54were spies connected to the rosenbergs
32:57who were the atomic spies in America and
33:00he sort of used every heartstring that
33:03he could imagine tugging at to go after
33:05the military but the United States had
33:07only recently been victorious in World
33:09War II and the Army was at Peak
33:11popularity if McCarthy had read the tea
33:14leaves he would have seen that taking on
33:16generals isn't the best strategy if you
33:19want to survive as a politician in
33:20America and I think that that sort of
33:25set the template McCarthy takes on the
33:28military and the Senate decides it's
33:30going to investigate this and it holds
33:33these very famous arguably the most
33:36famous hearings other than maybe
33:37Watergate in the history of the US
33:39Congress these famous hearings that
33:41became known as the Army McCarthy
33:43hearings so famous in fact that 30
33:45million Americans watched the first day
33:47of proceedings on television another 50
33:49million listened on radio or followed
33:51via newspaper this thing was everywhere
33:54for 36 Days Roy cone had gone from an
33:58asset to a liability for Joe McCarthy so
34:01Roy con like Joe McCarthy believed that
34:04there were no limits to the power he had
34:07and he had a young assistant and whether
34:09or not the assistant Roy con um although
34:12he never publicly came out he died of
34:15AIDS and he was clearly gay and whether
34:17this young assistant named David shine
34:20was just his palale or was his lover
34:24we'll never know and it doesn't matter
34:26remember this was a time in the United
34:27United States when acting on homosexual
34:29desires could be against the law
34:32something McCarthy and con played upon
34:33during their hearings igniting what
34:35became known as the lavender scare sort
34:38of a parallel to the Red Scare where the
34:40government went to work removing
34:42suspected homosexuals from their
34:44positions but What mattered was Roy con
34:47intervened when the Army drafted David
34:51shine to give him all kinds of special
34:53treatment partly so he could come to New
34:56York and party with Roy con and Roy con
35:00took on the chief of staff of the Army
35:04and the Army establishment in trying to
35:08get special treatment for his friend and
35:11this was fine when it was happening
35:13behind the scenes and when nobody could
35:15see what he was doing but when it came
35:17out during those Army McCarthy hearings
35:19Roy con fell even harder than Joe
35:22McCarthy did and it was partly what was
35:25said in those hearings and the fact that
35:27McCarthy's evidence didn't stand up and
35:29it was partly that Joe McCarthy in front
35:32of the glare of these TV cameras looked
35:36like a fat balding guy who looked a
35:41little bit like the bully that people
35:44could imagine from their school grounds
35:45he was no longer this Noble Senator
35:47taking on the Red Menace he was a wild
35:52man on your TV screens and I think by
35:55the end of those hearings people who
35:56watched it as importantly as people who
35:59listened to it decided that Joe McCarthy
36:01wasn't somebody they could go to the
36:03bank with and the fact that behind the
36:05scenes President Eisenhower was helping
36:08the army fight back and the fact that
36:11there was a brilliant lawyer from Boston
36:13named Joe Welch who asked the question
36:17that resonated Across America here's how
36:20it came about McCarthy attacked one of
36:23Welch's attorneys alleging that he had
36:25ties to the Communist Party Welch
36:28carefully calmly fought back here he is
36:32defending his younger colleague it is I
36:35regret to say equally true that I fear
36:38he shall always bear a
36:41scar needlessly inflicted by
36:45you if it were in my power to forgive
36:49you for your Reckless cruelty I would do
36:52so I like to think I'm a gentle man
36:57but
36:58[Music]
37:00your
37:03forgiveness will have to
37:05come from someone other than me McCarthy
37:09sits there with a combover looking
37:11disheveled slowly choosing his words he
37:15tries to win sympathy for Roy con but it
37:18isn't working so Joe attempts another
37:20jab at Welch's team only to get a sharp
37:24rebuke this is the famous line from
37:26Welch did you I think no personal injury
37:29Mr Cole I meant to do you no personal
37:33injury and if I did I beg your pardon
37:37let us not assassinate this lad further
37:40Senator you've done enough have you no
37:44sense of decency sir at long last have
37:48you left no sense of DEC it seems that
37:53this was the moment when people watching
37:54television across the country saw m y
37:57for who he was a demagogue a bully who
38:01attacked when anyone called him out for
38:03breaking the law or code of ethics have
38:05you no sense of decency the hearing
38:08continued with other members of the
38:10panel choosing to take Jabs at McCarthy
38:13I think the files of what you call my
38:16staff my director my chief of staff have
38:19been the sloppiest and most dangerously
38:22handled files that I have ever known of
38:25since I've been in the government
38:27[Music]
38:28Mr chairman now you can run away if he
38:30likes Ste you can run away if you like
38:33eventually the meeting is adjourned the
38:36committee stands and leaves but McCarthy
38:39keeps talking the cameras no longer see
38:42him just to seea of men heading for the
38:44door he no longer has the attention of
38:47the American people you shouldn't do
38:50that Mr Sim that's just dishonest that's
38:53that's the that's the thing thing that
38:55the Communist Party doing
38:58apparently every time anybody says
39:00anything against anybody working for S
39:03McCarthy sing them and is accusing them
39:06of communis answer the question do you
39:08know of any sub the best answer that I
39:10can do you know any
39:15Rec it was that question whether or not
39:18he had any decency that put the last
39:20nail in the coffin McCarthy went from
39:23being the most popular bully in the
39:25country to toxic to to the point that
39:28literally nobody sat with him during
39:30lunch they skirted around him every day
39:33in the Senate he understood that he was
39:35being shunned by the very Senators he
39:38had helped elect and he became he went
39:42back to being even worse than a
39:43backbencher he became a bit of a pariah
39:47nobody especially wanted to be seen with
39:48him nobody wanted to go out with him
39:50nobody wanted to smoo with him and
39:52nobody wanted to let him vent his
39:55charges in their hearing rooms
39:57and so while he continued to serve in
39:59the Senate he served like he was wearing
40:02a Scarlet Letter McCarthy was now an
40:05outsider though he still had a job his
40:08career was basically over this was
40:10almost the end of the story for Joe
40:12McCarthy though Roy con his young
40:15assistant continued to have influence he
40:17faded from public view for a while he
40:19went back home to New York he became
40:23over the years one of the most powerful
40:26lawyers in and political fixers in New
40:30York history Co went on to represent
40:32members of the mob and Rupert Murdoch
40:35the owner of Fox News he also made
40:37influential friends like Nancy Reagan
40:39people like Andy Warhol Cole Barons and
40:42New York politicians showed up at his
40:44birthday party at Studio 54 he was
40:46eventually disbarred for professional
40:48ethics violations about a half century
40:51after he had been Joe McCarthy's Protege
40:54a young guy in the real EST State
40:57business in New York was setting himself
41:00up for all that he would have to
41:02encounter in the Cutthroat world of New
41:04York real estate and this guy's father a
41:07guy named Fred Trump decided that his
41:10young son Donald Trump needed the
41:13perfect tutor in how to play hard ball
41:15politics and who better to tutor
41:18somebody on that than Roy con who had
41:21learned at the feet of the master Joe
41:23McCarthy and he passed on all of those
41:26lessons directly to Donald Trump you can
41:29see the crossover influences from
41:31McCarthy to Trump the ability to control
41:33the narrative being told in the news if
41:35you say something loud enough and often
41:37enough it becomes truth in the minds of
41:40the public another one was if you make
41:42an outrageous charge today as the Press
41:45is out there investigating whether that
41:47charge stands up if they rais any
41:50questions raise uh toss another grenade
41:53tomorrow and they'll forget yesterday's
41:55charge and it is a very definite lesson
42:00on how to play The Press make the press
42:02your friend when you can and when
42:04they're repeating your charges and when
42:06they start questioning you rather than
42:08the people who you were lobbing charges
42:10against attack the Press Roy con died
42:13from complications with AIDS in 1986
42:16though he insisted that he didn't have
42:18AIDS but liver cancer even at the end of
42:21his life trying to control the narrative
42:23Senator McCarthy didn't live so long he
42:26was sick even during the Army hearings
42:28going in and out of the hospital his
42:30alcohol consumption ever increasing
42:33often replacing food and when he did eat
42:36it was cheeseburgers he died at just 48
42:39years old the cause of his demise listed
42:42on his death certificate was hepatitis
42:44in a poetic way both Cohen and McCarthy
42:47tried to change the narratives around
42:49their death in truth it was liquor that
42:52got McCarthy patrons of the show can
42:54hear a bonus featuring Larry Tai
42:56discussing how he found the documentary
42:57proof for the real cause of Joe's death
43:00as Larry said we in the United States
43:02have a long history of demagogues
43:04bullies who gain our attention entertain
43:06us and leave a wake of Destruction in
43:09their path we'll meet more of them in
43:11season 6 demagogues provide easy answers
43:15but not substance can we resist their
43:18star power long enough to see them for
43:20who they are can we call them what they
43:22are even though they Champion our causes
43:26maybe the most important takeaway that
43:27will prepare us for next season is this
43:31when we Face a credible threat like
43:33communism how will we react the Soviet
43:36Union threatened the United States with
43:38nuclear war killing tens of millions of
43:40their own citizens suppressed media
43:43disappeared imprisoned or ejected
43:45religious people and gobbled up Eastern
43:47Europe when we're faced with a credible
43:50threat are we going to be willing to do
43:52the hard work of dealing with it in a
43:54righteous way or will we rely on easy
43:57answers scapegoats and the protection of
44:01a
44:06[Music]
44:15demagogue special thanks to Larry Tai
44:18he's a fascinating man and super patient
44:21he was kind enough to come on even
44:22though he's in the midst of deadlines he
44:24has a new book coming out this spring
44:25called the jasine EXP exploring how Duke
44:27Ellington Satchmo Armstrong and count
44:29basy shaped the Civil Rights Movement
44:31he's also working on a book about Jewish
44:33resistors to the Holocaust I am hard at
44:36work on season 6 good things take time
44:39God willing next season will tell the
44:40story of how evangelicals tie themselves
44:42to the Republican party it's going
44:44really well I've already recorded with a
44:46bunch of fascinating guests but the
44:48story is super complicated and I want to
44:50get it right also since I have a
44:53full-time job I need to give myself
44:55enough completed episodes so I don't
44:56have any more stressful days trying to
44:58keep up this season I'm going to create
45:00a generous buffer subscribe so you get
45:03every new episode as it's released and
45:05if you'd like an email reminder when the
45:06new season starts you can sign up for
45:08the email list on the website at trp
45:10podcast.com I'd love to do the show
45:13full-time but for now I've got to keep
45:15driving a school bus to keep food on the
45:16table you can help me reach the goal on
45:19patreon venmo PayPal or via check
45:21details are in your show notes or at
45:23truth podcast.com
45:24donate and if you give via patreon on
45:27you'll hear more of my interview with
45:28Larry Tai thanks so much for your
45:30continued support truce is a production
45:33of truce media LLC God willing we'll
45:36talk again soon I'm Chris staren and
45:39this is
45:40[Music]
45:46truce this episode is brought to you by
45:48the compelled podcast what would you do
45:50if you came face to face with a murderer
45:52sent to kill you for being a Christian
45:55for Virginia pran that question isn't
45:58hypothetical Virginia was a small petite
46:00attorney defending Christians in court
46:02in communist Romania and she was really
46:05good so good in fact she caught the
46:08attention of the Communist Regime one
46:11day a tall muscular man walked into her
46:13office closed the door and pulled out a
46:15gun He barked shut up sit down I'm here
46:19to kill you Virginia was face to face
46:21with a trained assassin what happened
46:24next would surprise both of them listen
46:27to Virginia's entire story on the
46:28compelled podcast where they find
46:30incredible true life stories of God
46:31working through the lives of normal
46:33people Virginia is on episode number 31
46:36which is titled he came to kill me
46:38listen on your podcasting app or at
46:40compelled podcast.com

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