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Jordan Peterson on romantic relationship ( 2 hours ) — Transcript

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0:00we we've got a hypothesis that we're
0:02still working out that's supported to
0:03some degree by the relevant literature
0:05so imagine that you're looking for a
0:07stable partner right so you might think
0:10well what do you want in a stable
0:11partner and at least in principle one of
0:14the things you don't want is too much
0:17mismatch between you and that person on
0:20the five fundamental Dimensions so for
0:22example if you're really extroverted and
0:24you have a really introverted partner
0:26you're going to engage in continual
0:29conflict about how much social activity
0:31the two of you should should be uh
0:34should should what subject yourself to
0:37and it's very very difficult for people
0:39who broadly differ widely differ on
0:42those Dimensions to come to consensus
0:44because it's not just a matter of
0:46opinion right it's really a matter of
0:48different if you're looking at extremes
0:50of really different types of people and
0:53the thing about introverts is they just
0:54don't enjoy large scale social
0:57interaction that much one-on-one they're
0:59often fine but in a group they don't
1:01like that and they it tires them out
1:02whereas a real extrovert it's like you
1:04isolate them and and they just Wither on
1:06the vine because a huge part of what
1:09actually motivates them in a positive
1:11way is Tangled Up with social
1:12interaction and so if you're an
1:15agreeable person and you have a
1:17particularly disagreeable partner you're
1:19also going to run into problems because
1:21the agreeable person will say whatever
1:22you want whenever and the agreeable per
1:25disagreeable person will say well I'd
1:27like to know what the hell you want for
1:29a change and be much more harsh and much
1:31more demanding in the situation and the
1:33agreeable person is going to find the
1:35disagreeable person harsh and unpleasant
1:38and the disagreeable person is going to
1:40find the agreeable person wishy-washy
1:42and unable to stand up for themselves
1:44and again that's a that's actually one
1:46of the primary sources of tension
1:47between men and women because women tend
1:49to be higher in agreeableness than men
1:51it's about half a standard deviation
1:53which is quite quite a quite a uh quite
1:55a large difference by psychological
1:58standards and so um what it what that
2:02means I probably haven't got the
2:04statistic quite right but I think I've
2:06got it about right what that means
2:08fundamentally just so you have some
2:09sense of how large uh uh an effect that
2:13is is that if you have a group of men
2:14and women and you pick out random pairs
2:17the woman is going to be more agreeable
2:18than the man 60% of the time so that's
2:21not an overwhelming proportion but it's
2:24reliable and it's quite it's quite large
2:26by psychological standards so there's
2:28the problem with agreeable with
2:30conscientiousness well if you're
2:33conscientious you're industrious and
2:35orderly and orderly people seem to be
2:38sensitive to disgust which is something
2:40we'll talk about in detail later we've
2:42had a hard time specifying exactly what
2:45makes industrious people industrious
2:47because it's hard to come up with an
2:48animal model for that sort of thing and
2:49there's no theoretical model but our
2:52latest uh idea is that my it's not my
2:55idea it's actually the idea of my
2:56graduate student Christine broy um is
2:59that
3:00industrious people find it um unpleasant
3:04and unsettling to to not be doing
3:06something so it isn't so much that
3:08industriousness makes them happy or
3:10fills them with positive emotion that
3:12would be more extroversion right because
3:13extroversion is the positive emotion
3:15Dimension it's that industrious people
3:17can't stand sitting around doing nothing
3:20and you know this is speculation but you
3:24know human beings are obviously always
3:26engaged in the exchange of Labor
3:28especially the reciprocal Exchange of
3:30Labor and you can imagine that um in a
3:33in a community where everyone knows
3:34everyone the people who work hard are
3:36going to be pretty irritated on a fairly
3:38chronic basis with the PE people who are
3:40completely unproductive and my
3:43suspicions are that plenty of people who
3:45were completely unproductive in the
3:46history of of our of the evolution of
3:48our species were wiped out by people who
3:51were unhappy with their lack of
3:53productivity and so I think generally
3:56speaking human beings have this sense of
3:58ethical obligation with regard to one
4:00another to share labor and people who
4:03are conscientious really really feel
4:05that so they feel bad if they're not
4:07busily working on something that's
4:09productive all the time and so the
4:12advantage to being with someone
4:13conscientious is well they're going to
4:15work like mad but the disadvantage is
4:16they're they're going to work like mad
4:19so you know if you're looking for a
4:20partner that you want to relax with or
4:22have fun with or who isn't uptight then
4:24a conscientious person is probably not a
4:26very good choice on the other hand if
4:29you're a conscientious person and you're
4:30living with someone who's really
4:32unconscientious that's good because they
4:33might be able to help you relax but
4:35you're not going to be happy with them
4:36because they don't work nearly as hard
4:37as you do but even worse on the orderly
4:39Dimension you know some of you have had
4:42roommates and maybe you're more orderly
4:44than your roommate what does it mean
4:47means you're annoyed by mess before they
4:50are and you don't have to be annoyed by
4:52mess much before your less orderly
4:55roommate for you to be the one that's
4:57always running around picking things up
4:59and so actually one of the things that's
5:01emerged from the psychometric analysis
5:02is that women are slightly more orderly
5:05than men and I suspect that has
5:07something to do with the UN what would
5:09you call it inequitable distribution of
5:10housework because even if you're imagine
5:13that your proclivity is to be triggered
5:15by disorder 25 seconds before your
5:18partners well you're going to end up it
5:21doesn't take much difference for you to
5:22be the one that's always concerned about
5:24the mess first so anyways and so if
5:27you're a really orderly person and you
5:28live with a dis orderly person well good
5:31luck getting along with them they're
5:32going to regard you as like uptight and
5:35and uh uh over concerned with details
5:38and and uh and well and unwilling to
5:41relax that's for sure and they're going
5:44to regard you as well just a bloody mess
5:47and how can anyone possibly live with
5:48someone like you and so so another
5:52reason why it's useful to understand
5:53your personality is because I think it
5:55gives you a better crack at finding
5:58someone that you can actually live with
6:00over the long run and we don't know what
6:02the optimal I don't think you want to
6:03live with someone who's exactly like you
6:05because then both of you have the same
6:07strengths and weaknesses and there's a
6:09bit of a problem there right because
6:11maybe an agreeable person can use a bit
6:13of disagreeable person around them to
6:15balance each other out and vice versa
6:17right so we don't understand the optimal
6:20balance for for for long-term thriving
6:23in a relationship but I think we do
6:26understand the fact that if you're too
6:27different in your tra
6:29that those that where you're different
6:31is going to constitute a chronic source
6:33of conflict strange so what advice can
6:37you give to people who are looking to
6:39have a strong and meaningful and Lasting
6:41relationship with someone well the the
6:44first thing is to decide if that is
6:46really what you want is that fair do you
6:49think to say I don't I don't I want to
6:50be single forever do you think that's
6:52realistic or Fair assessment of
6:55oneself um I think that that's for most
6:58people a Pathway to Insanity yeah you
7:01know the psychoanalysts used to think
7:03that and we all think this way in some
7:06ways that you're sane because you're
7:07well put together in your psyche is well
7:11structured right it's internal somehow
7:13inside your head but and there's some
7:16truth in that but here's a here's a more
7:18accurate Viewpoint I
7:20think you Outsource most of your
7:24sanity because it's too complicated and
7:27so what you do is your parents you to be
7:30vaguely acceptable to other people and
7:33then you're surrounded by other people
7:34your whole life and then every time you
7:36go off the rails a little bit even just
7:39a little bit people signal to you like
7:41you make a joke it's not that funny and
7:43people don't laugh and you think oh well
7:44you know I should probably rethink my
7:46sense of humor a little bit or pay more
7:48attention or you tell a rambling story
7:50and you notice that everyone's like lost
7:52in the distance so if you're civilized
7:56enough so that people don't shun you
7:59and you have people around you then
8:01they're going to be always telling you
8:02how to not be too insane well if you're
8:05alone you drift you drift you know and
8:09you'll drift in the direction of your
8:11biggest weakness and so you know there
8:14are some people maybe they're
8:16introverted and disagreeable they're
8:19they're not cut out for a lot of social
8:21contact but we're social animals man
8:24right to the core and
8:27and it's a sub optimal solution for for
8:31the vast majority of people MH um I
8:34think that people are having a harder
8:36time
8:38finding like let's call them more
8:40permanent relationships is because it's
8:42become increasingly easy to have
8:45fleeting casual sexual relationships I
8:48mean Tinder is a revolution right it's a
8:51revolution in sexual behavior and it's
8:52certainly not obvious that it's a is it
8:55a social thing is it just technology is
8:57this what people want to be be doing cuz
9:00you you think the yeah in some ways but
9:04the technology has enabled this fleeting
9:06sexual oh definitely definitely and and
9:09that's we don't want to underestimate
9:11how radical a technology that is that's
9:13especially especially for men I do feel
9:17that deep down that all these people men
9:18and women alike are always longing for
9:20something more
9:21meaningful well I think I think that
9:24that's generally the case I
9:26mean you know part of the reason for
9:29relationship is sexual contact obviously
9:31well that's that you you don't
9:33necessarily need a relationship for that
9:36but that's not the reason to to be with
9:40someone the reason to be some with
9:41someone there's a lot of them so one is
9:45well kids who have two parents do far
9:48better period the read data on that is
9:52Crystal Clear doesn't mean that there
9:53aren't many single parents who struggle
9:56to do a wonderful job that's not the
9:58same thing it's an average issue so you
10:01need plus it's a lot of work to have
10:04kids you know you kind of need to divide
10:06up the labor especially in the first
10:08year or two you know cu the woman is
10:10completely overwhelmed in the first year
10:12and she needs somebody around to take
10:13care of her while she's taking care of
10:15the kid fundamentally or at least that's
10:16the way it looks to me so so there's
10:19that you need a stable basis for
10:21children and takes them a long time to
10:23mature and they need to learn that
10:24relationships are trustworthy right so
10:27there's utility and stability there but
10:29then also you kind of want to tangle
10:31your life together with someone you know
10:33because you have someone
10:36to well it's like two ropes that are
10:38Tangled together it's stronger
10:40especially during times of weakness and
10:42you have two brains instead of one and
10:44that actually turns out to be really
10:45helpful when things are complicated and
10:48and it builds a solidity into your life
10:50and a and a and a reality into your life
10:53to have someone who's along with you on
10:55this very long voyage and so I think
10:57that deepens your life in a way that
11:00isn't really possible with fragmentary
11:02relationships as a single person
11:04definitely and then there's more to it
11:06than that it's like I think of wrestling
11:09there's this scene in the Old Testament
11:10where Jacob wrestles with an angel he's
11:13wrestling with God actually which is
11:15quite an interesting that's what Israel
11:17means right wrestling with God yeah that
11:20just blew me away when I learned it it
11:21so the true people of Israel are those
11:24who wrestle with godest yeah it's not
11:26believe exactly so whole different thing
11:30man it's a whole different thing isn't
11:32it like fear from God what it means
11:35that's what I thought well it from from
11:38from the work I did in the last couple
11:39of months looking at this and I looked
11:41into it quite deeply it does mean
11:43wrestling essentially and it does derive
11:45from that scene in the Old Testament
11:46where Jacob wrestles with God that's
11:48when he gets the name Israel and his hip
11:51is dislocated right permanently he has a
11:53permanent limp after that it's no joke
11:56but I think of marriage the same way
11:58like people think well they lived
11:59happily ever after it's like that's not
12:00what you want in a marriage you want
12:02someone to contend with you know because
12:05you learn through that wrestling you
12:09know like you learn where you're an
12:11idiot and where you should stop being
12:13and and vice versa so there's a that's
12:15the spiritual aspect of marriage it's
12:17it's the fact that you have to contend
12:19with someone under all sorts of
12:22circumstances theoretically is a what
12:25would you say it's a it's a manner of
12:27promoting psychological or you could say
12:29spiritual growth and it's genuine you
12:33know that's why marriage is a Sacrament
12:34in most human communities right it's
12:36it's stamped both by the state and by
12:40the sacred authorities because it's not
12:42just a physiological Union that's what
12:44animals do and I mean there's nothing
12:46wrong with the physiological Union but
12:49it it has to be placed in the context of
12:51everything else a human being is and I
12:53do think it's dreadful for people not to
12:55have that and do you think it's it's
12:59it's become harder for people to have
13:00meaningful lasting relationships or has
13:03it always been this hard I feel like um
13:07I thank God that I'm not dating now
13:08because I feel like it must it's it
13:10seems like it's miserable out there
13:12right now well it's hard to try to meet
13:13people it is hard for although you know
13:15it's easier to meet people because
13:17there's more ways of meeting them right
13:20but the ways of meeting them is are more
13:22shallow my in my clinical practice I
13:25would say that the rise of the internet
13:27dating option has
13:30overall been good for people who are
13:32looking for a partner now there is some
13:35speculation and some evidence that it
13:37lowers the transaction price of
13:41separation and divorce you know because
13:44one of the reasons you don't separate or
13:45you don't get divorced is like well you
13:47going to find someone else and if it's
13:48easier to find someone else then perhaps
13:50you're more tempted to sever the
13:51relationship so maybe you lose in one
13:54place where you gain in the other
13:57but I think think there are different
13:59kinds of hard that it is you know it's
14:02hard for couples to figure out how to
14:04manage two careers M it's hard for women
14:08to figure out how to get educated and
14:10get their career launched at the same
14:12time that they're finding a partner and
14:14having kids CU women have this tight
14:16time frame you know I mean they've got
14:18to get a lot done by the time they're
14:20mid-30s for sure and so it's it's not
14:23much time you know it's like 15 years
14:25really from the time you're an adult
14:26it's you better get at it it's not very
14:29long right so I think there are new
14:31challenges that have Arisen that weren't
14:34there for previous generations but but
14:36previous generations had it hard in
14:38other ways that's very true yeah like
14:41dying or in child birth for example in
14:44fact people also need to like understand
14:47how to make a relationship work like
14:49it's not just magic you need to kind of
14:51put in the work to make it work it's
14:53hard put in effort and compromise a lot
14:56of times on like if you live by yourself
14:59you can do everything the way you would
15:00want if you live with someone else then
15:03there's compromises to make but in the
15:05long picture it's better for you well
15:07that's that's it that's it there's
15:08sacrifices to be B in the short term you
15:11know and I mean people have to the
15:14effort issue is like well when you're in
15:18love with someone you're going to
15:19organize your schedule and make them a
15:22priority and you know that's in some
15:25ways a fleeting State although it's not
15:27necessarily as Fleet as people think it
15:29is but
15:30whatever it's it's obviously a priority
15:33then you get married and you know you
15:35kind of get accustomed to having each
15:36other around and then everything else is
15:40more important and the relationship
15:41drifts to the bottom and then people get
15:44dissatisfied and they start looking for
15:46excitement and Adventure otherwise well
15:47you can't do that you have to prioritize
15:50the relationship like my observation
15:52clinically has been for a couple to
15:55maintain their relationship without it
15:57deteriorating they have to spend 90
15:59minutes a week together talking about
16:01their lives about how the houses run
16:03about what they've all been doing to
16:05keep their stories caught up right
16:07that's not really even that much by no
16:09it's not it's not it's not that much but
16:12but and which is a good thing you can
16:14actually do it and then they need to
16:15spend at least one
16:18time having a date and two is better one
16:22is necessary two is
16:25better you can't aim for a lot more than
16:28that because you know life is very busy
16:30and if it's going to be sustainable it
16:32has to be realistic but they need to
16:35make time for each other twice a week
16:38and and talk in like in a non-romantic
16:41way just practically about the domestic
16:44economy and about everything that's
16:45going on and that keeps people tied to
16:49each other and updated and so that's
16:52sort of your minimal commitment level if
16:54you don't want things to deteriorate you
16:56want someone I think in a relationship
16:59that you can Spire with and it's partly
17:04because you have hard problems to solve
17:07and if the person that you're with isn't
17:09willing to put forward their opinion
17:13then you only have half the cognitive
17:15power that you would otherwise have you
17:17know and hopefully you find someone
17:19who's interestingly different from you
17:22like not so different that you can't
17:24communicate and you have to be careful
17:25of that but interestingly different and
17:27then hopefully they have the ability and
17:30the will to express their opinion and
17:32and then well then it's you know then
17:35then your interest stays heightened and
17:37there has to be that tension in a
17:39relationship you know people think well
17:42I I want to get along perfectly with my
17:44partner it's like no you you probably
17:47don't you just get bored then you go
17:49looking for trouble and so you want a
17:52little bit of trouble in the
17:53relationship and a little bit of mystery
17:55and a little bit of combativeness and
17:57and the ability to to exchange opinions
18:00forthrightly and and I trust her which
18:03is a huge element I mean when when we
18:06finally did decide to get together
18:09permanently we were both in our later
18:1120s and you know one of the things that
18:13I had learned by that point and insisted
18:17to her about was that we had to tell
18:19each other the truth and she took to
18:24that wholeheartedly you know and um for
18:29better and for worse because truths can
18:30be harsh does that include like does
18:33this outfit make me like that yeah well
18:36the truthful answer to that is I don't
18:38answer questions that are likely to get
18:39me in
18:41trouble yeah so um my I have a son who
18:45will answer honestly and it's
18:47infuriating but then I realized if you
18:49want the truth talk to tamler tell you
18:51well that's the thing you know it's it's
18:53useful to know um truth is empowering
18:55truth tellers are charismatic and you
18:58know actually both my sons are like
19:00brutally honest which is disconcerting
19:02but but it's I can see that it made them
19:07very formidable and and because of
19:10people trust them and the friendships
19:13and just it gives them a and you've
19:16written a lot about this well you know
19:18if if I tell my wife that she looks good
19:19in an outfit she knows that I mean it
19:22yeah and so there's some utility in that
19:24and then if you're silent and say I
19:25don't answer questions that she she goes
19:27and she knows well sometimes sometimes
19:29you know she'll say you know do you like
19:31this and I'll tell her that I don't and
19:33and you know and that doesn't
19:35necessarily make her happy in the moment
19:37but
19:39um but if I do say I like it she knows
19:42that I mean it and you know I actually
19:44like her sense of style a lot so it
19:46turns out that 90% of the time it's
19:47pretty easy for me to say look I think
19:49you look great and mean it and uh you
19:52know she's a fairly harsh standard
19:54Bearer too like she's she's insisted
19:57that I stay in
19:58whatever reasonable physical shape I
20:00happen to be in you know that was that
20:02was something that she's very demanding
20:04of and I would say that it's the same
20:06from my side and um and we've been good
20:10at negotiating which is you know what do
20:14you want from a partner fundamentally
20:16what what do you want and need I mean
20:17the first thing is is that well
20:19hopefully you like I said you're blessed
20:21with the fact that you find each other
20:23attractive and I think it's very
20:25difficult for the relationship to begin
20:28or proceed or sustain itself without
20:31that but having that then what do you
20:34want well you want someone that you can
20:36trust you want someone that you can
20:37build a view of the future with and you
20:40want someone that you can negotiate with
20:42and that's very hard to negotiate with
20:44people because they have to tell you
20:46what they think they have to know what
20:48they want or figure it out they have to
20:50tell you what they want they have to be
20:52satisfied when they get what they want
20:54which is also a very difficult thing to
20:55manage and you have to continually
20:58update that because your life goes
21:00through different stages and well your
21:02attraction wains as we all know at our
21:04stage of life not fatally necessarily
21:07for
21:09yourself but but no but you will go I
21:11mean you will not be 25 forever so so
21:14that that has to be renegotiated yeah
21:17well and you have to work at that too
21:18you know and and that's something that
21:19people also don't understand because
21:21they tend to think
21:23that well that that all romantic
21:26interaction should be SP aneous it's
21:29like well if that's your theory then you
21:31might as well just give up right now if
21:33you're going to get married because that
21:35like the only reason you can think that
21:37is because you don't have enough
21:38responsibility to make romantic
21:40entanglement virtually impossible and
21:42what happens when you're married
21:44especially when you have little kids is
21:45that and and you both have a job let's
21:48say is you're so busy that the
21:49probability that you're going to find
21:51time for spontaneous Mutual interaction
21:54is decreases to zero and so if that's
21:57what you're hoping for then you're never
21:58going to have it and so what you have to
22:00do is you have to make time for each
22:01other and you know if you're dating um
22:05when you're establishing a relationship
22:07well you put some effort into it you
22:08know you you decide that you're going to
22:10go out for dinner and you dress up to
22:12some degree and you know you try to
22:14present yourself to each other in some
22:15halfways mutually acceptable Manner and
22:18you hope that there's going to be a
22:20positive consequence of that that you're
22:21going to find each other attractive but
22:23then people somehow think that once
22:25they're married that the same amount of
22:28eort isn't necessary and that's wrong I
22:31would say more effort is necessary on
22:33the same front and you have to think it
22:36through it's like you know if you don't
22:37want to be bitter about the intimate
22:42element of your relationship how much
22:44time do you have to spend together each
22:45week and my my rule of thumb sort of
22:48derived from Clinical observations is
22:50that you need to spend 90 minutes a week
22:53with your partner talking and that means
22:56you're telling each other about your
22:57life and staying in touch you know so
23:00that you each know what the other is up
23:02to and you're discussing what needs to
23:04be done to keep the household running
23:05smoothly and you're laying out some
23:08mutually acceptable vision of how the
23:10next week or the next months are going
23:11to go together right so that that keeps
23:13your narratives locked together like a
23:16like the strands in a rope you need that
23:18for 90 minutes or you drift apart and
23:20you need to spend intimate time together
23:23at least once a week and probably more
23:25like twice and that has to be negotiated
23:27and if you don't negotiate it and if you
23:29don't make it a priority then it won't
23:31happen in all likelihood and then well
23:34well then you don't have it and that's a
23:36catastrophe because there's not that
23:38many things in life that are you know
23:40intrinsically what would you say
23:42engaging and meaningful and pleasurable
23:44and also bonding all of that and if you
23:48let that go then well part of you dies
23:51and part of the relationship dies and
23:53well then there's always the possibility
23:55of becoming attracted by alternative
23:56entanglements which which you would do
23:59if you had any Spirit left right I mean
24:02that's the thing is if well if you're
24:03not if you're if you're relationship at
24:06home is entirely unsatisfying sexually
24:09what are you supposed to do with that
24:11nothing are you supposed to just bear it
24:13I mean in one way the answer is yes
24:15because it's your marriage but in
24:16another way is well what that's all the
24:19fight you've got in you you're going to
24:21just let the erotic element of your life
24:24die and and accept everything that goes
24:26along with that because you're not
24:27willing to cause a bit of trouble to
24:31ensure that it's
24:32maintained and you know and we're not
24:34very good at thinking these things
24:35through consciously and I mean people
24:38are bad at negotiating period as far as
24:40I can tell but they're particularly bad
24:42at negotiating things that are deeply
24:43private how much do you want your
24:45partner to know about you anyways it
24:48takes a lot of trust to have a real
24:51conversation about what you need and
24:53want how do you find on that topic the
24:56love of your life
24:58that's a good question I was asked that
25:01multiple times on my tour three times in
25:05a row in fact because we asked people to
25:07use this slido
25:09gadget that's a popular question to very
25:12it always came up to the top and I got
25:14asked that three times in a row and I
25:17didn't have a good answer and then I
25:19thought why don't I have a good answer I
25:22thought oh I know why cuz that's a
25:25stupid
25:26question
25:28so so why yeah why because it's it's
25:32putting the cart before the horse here's
25:34the right
25:36question how do I make myself into the
25:39perfect
25:40date you answer that question and you
25:42will not have any problem answering the
25:44previous question it's like what I want
25:47in a
25:49partner if I offered everything I could
25:52to a partner who would I be you work on
25:55that ask that question just ask just ask
25:57yourself okay I have to be the person
26:01that women would
26:04want okay what do they
26:08want clean that's not a bad
26:13start reasonably good physical
26:16shape so
26:20healthy
26:21productive generous
26:25honest willing to delay Gra so you dance
26:28with a woman it's like what's she doing
26:30what are you two doing well it's a
26:31patterned you're there's patterns
26:33happening around you that's the music
26:35patterns patterns of being that's the
26:37music now can you align yourself with
26:39the patterns of being gracefully that's
26:41what she's checking out and then can you
26:45do that with
26:47her and then can you do that in a
26:49playful and attentive Manner and keep
26:52your bloody hands to yourself for at
26:54least a
26:55minute and so can you dance
26:58in a playful manner it's like you can go
27:00through this in your imagination and you
27:02know you'll know you know and then you
27:04think well how far am I from those
27:06things and the answer is usually man
27:08it's pretty horrible Abyss separating
27:11you from that ideal but the harder you
27:15work on offering other people what they
27:18need and want the more people will line
27:21up to play with you and so it's the
27:23wrong question it's like how can I be
27:25the best partner possible and then you
27:28think well if I do that people will just
27:29take advantage of me and that's the
27:33non-naive objection right because the
27:35naive person think well I'll be good and
27:37everyone will treat me right it's like
27:39the cynic says no I'll be good and
27:41someone will take me
27:44out and then you think well what do you
27:47do about that objection and the answer
27:49is well you factor that in and that's
27:52why you're supposed to be what is it as
27:55soft as a dove and as wise as a serpent
27:57it's like I know you're full of snakes I
28:01know it maybe I know it more than you
28:04do but we'll play anyways and that's the
28:08risk anyway that's right voluntarily
28:10right it's like and what's so cool about
28:13that is that even though the person
28:14you're dealing with is full of snakes if
28:17you offer your hand in trust and it's
28:20real you will evoke the best in them
28:23yeah and that's true even I've dealt
28:24with people who were pretty damn
28:27Criminal criminal and pretty
28:30Psychopathic and sometimes dangerously
28:33so and you tread very lightly when
28:36you're dealing with someone like that
28:38especially if they're intoxicated and
28:41even then your best bet is that alert
28:48trust it's the it's the only it's fact
28:51the only thing I know
28:52that I had one client who was a paranoid
28:55he was paranoid psychopath that's a bad
28:58combination he was a bad guy man he had
29:01like four restraining orders on him and
29:04restraining orders don't work on the
29:06sort of people that you put restraining
29:07orders on and he used to be harassed now
29:11and then by you know a bureaucrat in a
29:13bank with with delusions of power and he
29:16would say to them he he used to kind of
29:18act this out to me when I was talking
29:21him he'd
29:22say I'm going to be your worst
29:25nightmare and he it yeah and he would do
29:29it he had this obsessional Psychopathic
29:33Vengeance that was just like right there
29:36paranoid to the hilt and paranoid people
29:38are hyperacute so they're watching you
29:41for any sign
29:43of Deceit or manipulation and they're
29:46really good at it cuz like they're 100%
29:49F that's what paranoia is it's 100%
29:52focus on that and even under those
29:55circumstances if you step carefully
29:58enough you can maybe you can avoid the
30:02axe that's a good thing to know if you
30:04ever meet someone truly
30:07dangerous uh absolutely I believe in
30:09that that being fragile nevertheless
30:13taking that leap of trust towards
30:14another person even when they're
30:16dangerous especially when they're
30:17dangerous if you care if there's
30:21something there in those Hills you want
30:23to find then that's probably the only
30:26way you're going to find is taking that
30:28risk that's actually why people get
30:30married you know just so you
30:33know because this is built into marital
30:36vows I'm not
30:39leaving ever no matter what it's like
30:42okay well that definitely puts a
30:43boundary around our arguments right
30:45because I can't say every time you
30:47manifest one of your flaws which you're
30:49likely to do just as often as me well
30:52enough of this it's like that's horrible
30:54man if your whole life is well every
30:56time you get get out of line I'm I'm out
30:58of here it's like how the hell are you
30:59first of all you're not going to admit
31:01to ever doing anything wrong second
31:03you're going to be on
31:05your you're like a like a scared cat the
31:08entire relationship because well who
31:10knows it could just come to an end at
31:11any moment it's like you know people say
31:14well if you're if the possibility of
31:16divorce is open it makes you free it's
31:18like yeah that's what you want you want
31:20to be free he really really so you can't
31:24predict anything that's what you're
31:25after it's a VI wow and it says
31:29look I know that you're
31:32trouble me too so we won't leave no
31:37matter what happens well that's a hell
31:39of a vow but that's why it's a vow right
31:41that's why you take it in front of a
31:42bunch of people that's why it's supposed
31:43to be a sacred act it's like what's the
31:46alternative what's the alternative
31:49everything is mutable and changeable at
31:50any moment well go ahead you live live
31:53your life like that and see what you're
31:54like when you're 50 Jesus it's dismal
31:57two or three divorces your family's
31:58fragmented you've got no continuity of
32:01narrative it's and it's not good for the
32:03kids not by any stretch of the
32:05imagination and so it's a form of
32:08voluntary enslavement I suppose but it's
32:11also equivalent to the adoption of a
32:13responsibility and there's more to it
32:14than that if you can't run away then you
32:16can solve your problems because it might
32:18be okay well I'm stuck with you so how
32:21about we fix
32:23things because the alternative is we're
32:25going to be in a boxing match for the
32:26next 40 years that's the alternative so
32:30and you think you're going to fix
32:31problems without something like that
32:33hanging over your head there isn't a
32:35chance you'll just avoid them because
32:37that's what people do it's really hard
32:38to to solve problems especially in a
32:40relationship we're having a fight and I
32:42find out that it's you know because
32:43you're you were abused by your uncle
32:45when you were five or some godamn thing
32:47you know it's like it's very frequent
32:49that that sort of thing happens you
32:51there there's the partner your partner
32:52is you know manifesting some weird
32:54anomalous Behavior you just can't make
32:56heads or Tales of it it doesn't seem
32:58related to what you're doing at all they
33:00don't want to talk about it and so as
33:02soon as you bring it up they get mad
33:04then you bring it up again they even get
33:05mad and they tell you that they're not
33:07going to talk about that or they're
33:08going to leave and so maybe you're
33:10really really persistent because you're
33:12kind of a son of a and then they
33:13break down and cry you know and then
33:16they have this horrible memory that
33:18comes flooding forward that's completely
33:20you don't know what to do with it and
33:21then you have to sort it out it's like
33:23you think you're going to do that unless
33:24there's a good reason you have to know
33:27we better sort this out or we're going
33:28to be carrying it around for the next 40
33:30years that maybe is enough motivation so
33:33you'll actually try hard to solve a
33:34problem it's a lot easier to say well
33:37sorry we're not going there but then
33:40good you'll have it every day every day
33:42every godamn day for the rest of your
33:43life see there's some there's some
33:45additional problems with divorce that
33:47people don't really grasp when they're
33:49young like the idea that you can be
33:52divorced once you have children that's
33:54kind of a stupid idea CU you can't you
33:57can you can you can find a limited
34:02substitute for your initial freedom but
34:05if you if you have kids and you try to
34:07get divorced the probability that that's
34:09going to demolish your life is very very
34:11high first of all it's incredibly
34:13expensive so one or both of you is going
34:16to come out of that
34:17poor
34:20and your market value has declined let's
34:23say you're the woman who takes the kids
34:25your market value has declined radically
34:28you're going to be poorer the man he's
34:31just as screwed because he is now an
34:33indentured servant and there's no escape
34:36from it so it's and it's not so bad if
34:40you can negotiate a peaceful separation
34:42and some people can but lots of times if
34:44you have a terrible relationship it's
34:46not like negotiating a peaceful
34:47separation is all that easy but if
34:49you're at each other's throats good luck
34:52to you I think it's roughly equivalent
34:54to having non-fatal cancer it is not
34:57pleasant it's a 10-year process 15-year
35:00process it'll cost you
35:02$250,000 and it'll tear a big chunk out
35:04of your life and also it will really
35:07disrupt your relationship with your kids
35:09and you know you bring kids into a step
35:12parent family they do not do as well
35:14stepparents are not as good parents as
35:16biological parents and the data on that
35:18is clear now obviously there are
35:20exceptions because there are terrible
35:22biological parents and there are
35:23wonderful step parents but if you look
35:25in aggregate
35:27it's not that easy to care for
35:29children you need everything you can
35:32binding you to them and if they're
35:35someone else's
35:36children mostly they get in the way of
35:39the person that you
35:40love
35:42right well if I'm let's say you have a
35:45child I'll be right out let's say you
35:47have a child and I want to go out with
35:50you every second you spend with that
35:52child is the second you don't spend with
35:53me and and there's going to be a price
35:56for that I'm not going to be happy about
35:57that and and if I have a child you're
35:59going to feel exactly the same way you
36:01might say well no I love children it's
36:03like yeah yeah sure sure you do I doubt
36:07it you might love your child and and you
36:10know it's pretty specific the way that
36:12people love children so and the rate of
36:15abuse for kids in stepparent families is
36:18way higher than it is in biological
36:19families there's not even any
36:22comparison um you've said that a
36:24marriage must be based on trust and
36:26transparency and being Shackled together
36:28how and for how long should you get to
36:30know someone how to set a foundation oh
36:33well you know there's no there's no
36:36simple answer to that
36:44um I think that you should know someone
36:48well
36:49enough so that you
36:52can so that you know if you can
36:54negotiate with them and so that you have
36:57started to formulate a vision of your
37:00joint future that you can
37:03both look forward to with enthusiasm and
37:07confidence so and of course that's going
37:10to depend to some degree on your level
37:12of maturity but that means you've
37:15considered such things
37:17as do you have a sufficient number of
37:20joint interests and are you oriented in
37:22the same direction with regards to how
37:24you're going to handle your joint
37:25careers and possibility of children and
37:28the the manner in which you're going to
37:30interact with your in-laws and you you
37:32have to start thinking about you have to
37:36start considering your life together
37:38from the perspective of practicality and
37:41economics I would say so it can't just
37:44be that massive erotic attraction that's
37:47associated with with love although I
37:50think that's extraordinarily important
37:51and you're unbelievably fortunate if you
37:53have that and you should do everything
37:54you can to maintain it which and that
37:56takes effort that takes real effort and
37:58will but you need to Ally that with with
38:02maturity and intelligence and the
38:04maturity and intelligence is okay we're
38:05going to put our lives together what's
38:07that going to look like at the level of
38:09detail how are we going to handle our
38:11finances where are we going to live um
38:13what are our joint plans going to be Etc
38:16one of the things that my business
38:18partners and I plan to do in in what
38:23would you say that in uh as an analog
38:26the self authoring Suite is that we want
38:28to develop a an online program to help
38:31people negotiate their relationships and
38:35and so it would actually provide an
38:36answer to this question in a more
38:38comprehensive manner is that imagine
38:41that if you want to set up a household
38:42with someone then there's a lot of
38:44things that you need to get straight and
38:47you either do that by bringing your
38:49unconscious assumptions to bear on the
38:51situation and perhaps clashing where
38:53they don't match or you sit down like a
38:57conscious and aware and articulate
38:59couple and start to negotiate what your
39:02joint responsibilities are going to be
39:04and so that would be well um who's
39:07responsible for the meals and when and
39:09what are you going to eat and who's
39:10going to get groceries and who's going
39:12to pay the bills and who's going to do
39:13which part of what household chores
39:16there are to do and how is that going to
39:18be laid out fair and so you should get
39:21to know you should get to know the
39:23person that you're with well enough so
39:26so that you can start discussing the
39:28real practical issues of life and
39:31determine whether or not you're capable
39:32of of negotiating that and I don't think
39:35that necessarily means that you should
39:37live together because the evidence is
39:40actually quite strong at least the last
39:42time I looked that people who live
39:44together are more rather than less
39:46likely to be divorced now that might be
39:48that might have nothing to do with the
39:50actual Act of living together it might
39:51be that people who are more likely to
39:53get divorced are also those who are more
39:55likely to merely live together but I
39:57don't think that's a great solution for
39:59reasons I won't get go get into now and
40:02with regards to being Shackled together
40:04is that that's a complicated one and and
40:06I learned this at least in part from
40:08Reading Carl Yung and the idea there is
40:11that unless you've really made a
40:13commitment to someone like a lifetime
40:16commitment and that that's a serious
40:18commitment one that you're not going to
40:19back out of you're not going to take the
40:22relationship with the seriousness that's
40:24necessary to make it of the highest
40:26possible quality and sustainability
40:28across the course of your life and it's
40:30really important that it is of that high
40:32quality and sustainability because the
40:34relationship especially when it starts
40:36to produce children is a a machine let's
40:39say a machine that you jointly operate
40:41that adds immensely to the quality of
40:43your life and the depth of your life I
40:45mean you you have the rope and strand of
40:48your life and your partner has the the
40:50strands in the Rope of his or her life
40:52and then those are tied together to make
40:54a stronger rope and then that unites you
40:57across time and then you undertake
40:59massive adventures together and some of
41:01that is the establishment of a household
41:03and the establishment of joint careers
41:05and the maintenance of each other's
41:06mental and physical health and the
41:08maintenance of a high quality sexual
41:10life and all of that very very
41:12challenging to do all of that and then
41:14the joint production and and care of
41:17children which which sets you up
41:20properly for the last half of your life
41:21so like I'm 55 now you know and um both
41:25my kids just got in engaged in the last
41:27month so that's pretty bloody amazing
41:29and they're both setting up households
41:31and um and they're stepping into
41:34adulthood and I'm fortunate enough to
41:35have them in the city that I live in so
41:37hooray for me that's so bloody uh
41:40fortunate that I can hardly believe it I
41:42mean we've helped them out and tried to
41:43make it um what would you say to make
41:47the possibility of their living here be
41:49something that's viable but I'm
41:51absolutely thrilled that they're going
41:52to be around and I'm looking forward
41:54immensely to having grandchildren and
41:56and like what else are you going to do
41:58when you're 55 you know and you're going
42:00to be 55 it's going to I might have 40
42:03more years like what am I going to do
42:04with those years well so I have a good
42:07marriage thank God for that and that's
42:09partly due to the outstanding moral
42:11quality of my life my wife who I'm also
42:13extraordinarily attracted to and uh you
42:16know we've built a life together and
42:17we've had kids together and we're happy
42:19with our kids and we had plenty of of
42:21struggle with our kids because one of
42:23our children my daughter had serious
42:25serious
42:26health problems which she seems to have
42:29managed to resolve partly as a
42:31consequence of her own Brilliance um but
42:35you know we've set ourselves up now so
42:36that our children are respectable and
42:39mature young adults so thank God for
42:41that and they've got Partners who we
42:43both really like and they're going to
42:45have children and well hooray you know
42:48that means that this next part of my
42:49life is going to be something that I can
42:51advance into with a with a fair bit of
42:53Hope and and and excitement and the idea
42:56of having little kids around again is
42:58thrilling because I really like little
42:59kids they're really really fun and so
43:03the the shackle together is more like
43:05it's a it's it's it's such a I may have
43:08even said that but it's such a cynical
43:10way of looking at it it's more like what
43:11you've produced is an unbreakable bond
43:14between two beings and that that makes
43:17both of them both of them better in
43:19every way if it's based on if it's a
43:21relationship that's based on trust and
43:23genuine communication that's very
43:25difficult thing to attain because you
43:27have to be willing to tell the truth and
43:29the truth is generally a horrible thing
43:31you know I mean it's easy to tell truth
43:33when everyone wants to hear what you
43:35have to say but it's very difficult to
43:36tell the truth when no one wants to hear
43:38it least of all yourself and so marriage
43:41gets a very bad rap in our culture and
43:43so does child rearing and I think that's
43:46absolute catastrophe because
43:49really being in a long-term relationship
43:52a marriage let's say and having children
43:55that's 2third of of your life even if
43:57you're a highly career oriented person
43:59that's 2third of your life and I'm a
44:01highly career oriented person and my
44:04family has been unbelievably important
44:06to me and has also been something that's
44:08enabled me to be very effective in my
44:10career because my house has being a
44:12sanctuary for me and thank God for that
44:14especially over well many times in my
44:16life but especially over the last year
44:19so you should you should get to know
44:22someone long enough to know that you too
44:25can negot tell the truth with each other
44:28communicate and negotiate because the
44:30most important part of a relationship is
44:32the fact that you can tell each other
44:34the truth and negotiate it's a great
44:36thing to know with people like in your
44:38relationships here here's the key to a
44:40good relationship it's not the only one
44:42but watch your person carefully
44:46carefully carefully and whenever they do
44:48something that you would like them to do
44:50more of tell them that that was really
44:53good and mean it and it's not
44:54manipulative because if it's
44:55manipulative it won't work it's like you
44:57have to say wow I'm so glad you did that
44:59and you have to be precise here's what
45:02you just did that I thought was great
45:03and oh boy that's so nice that you
45:05noticed I can't believe that you noticed
45:07it's like you know you do that 20 times
45:10and the person will be like the rat
45:11that's just pushing the lever for
45:13cocaine you know so but no I'm serious
45:15it's it's Skinner established this BF
45:18Skinner noticed this a long time ago
45:20reward is intensely uh useful in terms
45:23of modifying Behavior but the problem is
45:24is that it's really hard to notice when
45:27things are going right right because
45:30you're kind of primed to notice when
45:31things are going wrong and so you use
45:34threat and Punishment more often as
45:37agents of of shaping the people that
45:40you're around because you know when
45:41everything's going right it's
45:44like what are you going to say
45:46everything's going right it turns to
45:48zero you just assume it and that's
45:50that's not good that's not good you want
45:52to pay attention and if the if your
45:54person your children your your wife your
45:57whoever your mother your sister if you
46:00want them
46:02to if you want to rectify your
46:04relationships with them and I'm not
46:06saying to do this in a manipulative way
46:08it won't work but if they do something
46:10that's promoting Harmony and peace and
46:12good will it's like attend to it tell
46:14them that you noticed it's like it's so
46:17useful and you have to get rid of your
46:18grudges and your resentment to do that
46:21right because you don't you're kind of
46:22mad at your sister and then you notice
46:24she does something good you think
46:25there's no godamn way I'm going to
46:27reward her for that so you ignore her
46:29when she does something good it's like
46:31that's brilliant that is cuz then you've
46:33just punished her for doing what you
46:34want and people do that with their kids
46:37all the time you know because they let
46:39the kids dominate them then they get
46:41resentful then the kid will run up to
46:43them to show them something that's kind
46:45of spectacular and they'll they're not
46:47happy they'll like oh yeah that's you
46:48know I'm I'm I'm working you know little
46:51kid is all sad about that and he's just
46:54learned something so and it's not
46:57perhaps what you want them to learn and
46:59so you have to keep your your
47:01relationship with your children pristine
47:04and that means that you can't hold a
47:06grudge or resent them and that means
47:08that you have to help them learn how to
47:10behave so that you like them and that
47:13way if they if you like them and you're
47:16kind of sensible and maybe your partner
47:17also likes them so you know you got a
47:19consensus going there there's a
47:21reasonable possibility that other people
47:23will actually like them too including
47:25other children and then the world will
47:27open up to them you know then you'll
47:30bring them to people's houses and the
47:32people will actually smile at them and
47:34give them a pat on the head in instead
47:36of thinking oh my God that Brat's coming
47:38to visit again I wonder what he'll break
47:39this time you know and that's just a
47:42horrible thing for your child to
47:44experience repetitively in situation
47:47after situation all they learn is that
47:50adults have a false smile but they're
47:51really lying all the time God it's like
47:55a bit of hell and there's a lot of
47:57children who are trapped in that it's
47:58really awful to see I can see kids like
48:01that when I walk down the street you
48:02know it's like they're little doomed
48:05things and there they are and you know
48:07they're screwed in 15 different ways and
48:09there's no way out of it it's really
48:11awful so I would not recommend that you
48:14do that it's better to notice that
48:16you're a bit of a monster or a lot of a
48:18monster and notice that you are much
48:22happier with the people around you when
48:24they behave in accordance with
48:25reasonable social social norms and then
48:28you actually feel genuinely connected to
48:30them and you want to work on their
48:32behalf so that everything works out but
48:34if you think you're a good person and
48:36that you'd never do anything that was
48:38harmful to your children then you can
48:39just forget about that because you'll
48:41never take it seriously enough to
48:43actually learn there's a sacrificial
48:45element in maturation right you have to
48:48sacrifice the plur potentiality of
48:52childhood for the actuality of a frame
48:56and the question is well why would you
48:58do that well one reason is it happens to
49:00you whether you do it or not you can
49:01either choose your damn
49:04limitation or you can let it take you
49:06unaware when you're 30 or even worse
49:09when you're 40 and then that is not a
49:13happy day you see I see people like this
49:15and I think it's more and more common in
49:17our culture because people can put off M
49:19maturity without suffering an immediate
49:21penalty but all that happens is the
49:23penalty acrs and then when it finally
49:26hits it just Wallops you because when
49:28you're 25 you can be an idiot it's no
49:30problem even when you're out in a job
49:33search is like well you don't have any
49:34experience and you're kind of Clueless
49:35it's yeah yeah you're young you know
49:37it's no problem we can that's what young
49:39people are like but they're full of
49:40potential okay well now you're the same
49:42person at
49:4330 it's like people aren't so thrilled
49:45about you at that point it's like what
49:46the hell have you been doing for the
49:48last 10 years well I'm just as clueless
49:50as I was when I was 22 it's yeah but
49:52you're not 22 you're an old infant
49:56right and that's an ugly thing an old
49:59infant so the the Reon part of the
50:02reason you choose your damn
50:04sacrifice because the sacrifice is
50:07inevitable but at least you get to
50:09choose it and then there's something
50:10that's that's even more complex than
50:12that in some sense is that the problem
50:15with being a child is that all you are
50:17is potential and it's really low
50:19resolution you could be anything but
50:21you're not anything so then you go and
50:23you adopt an apprenticeship
50:26roughly speaking and then you become at
50:28least you become something and when
50:30you're something that makes the world
50:32open up to you again you know like if
50:34you're a really good plumber then you
50:37end up being far more than a plumber
50:39right you end up being a good employer
50:40not not that plumbers I'm not putting
50:42plumbers down it's like more power to
50:44Plumbers they've saved more lives than
50:46doctors so hygiene right so you know if
50:50you're a really good plumber well then
50:52you have some employees you run a
50:53business you you you make you you train
50:55some other people you enlarge their
50:57lives you're kind of a pillar of the
50:58community you you have your family it's
51:01you can once you pass through that
51:03narrow training period which Narrows you
51:07and constricts you and develops you at
51:08the same time then you can come out the
51:10other end with a bunch of new
51:11possibility at hell at hand and Yung
51:14talked about that he thought that the
51:17proper part of the proper path of
51:20development in the last half of life was
51:21to ReDiscover the child that you left
51:25behind as you were
51:27apprenticing and so then you get to be
51:29something and regain that potential at
51:32the same time very very smart well he
51:34was very very smart so that's very
51:37wise very wise thing to know
51:41so y
51:45sacrifice we'll we'll talk more about
51:47that too you get to pick your damn
51:49sacrifice that's all you don't get to
51:51not make one you're sacrificial whether
51:54you want to be or not that's a good
51:57thing to know as well so even though
51:59it's rather you know it's a rough thing
52:01to figure out you can go to university
52:03to not be
52:04something instead of going to University
52:06to be something and and that's it's
52:08Pleasure
52:10Island and the price you pay for it
52:12especially in the US is
52:14debt and you're enticed into it because
52:16the administrators can pick your pocket
52:19so they they rob your future self while
52:22allowing you to pretend that you have an
52:24identity
52:25right very nasty and you can't declare
52:29bankruptcy with your student loans in
52:30the US it's indentured
52:32servitude and it is it's precisely
52:34Pleasure Island it's exactly that and so
52:37tuition fees have shot way out of
52:39control and part of the reason that
52:41universities don't make more demands on
52:42their students and let them get away
52:44with all the things they let them get
52:46away with is because they're basically
52:48why the hell would you chase them
52:50out they are
52:52$100,000 or more so so they can do
52:55whatever they want as long as you get to
52:57sell them to the salt
52:59mines
53:01right so and you know it's not the only
53:04reason because the other thing that's
53:05happened is that the rate of
53:06technological transformation is so fast
53:08now and the rate of turnover of things
53:10is that it's it is genuinely harder for
53:13people who are say 18 to 20 when I was a
53:16kid roughly speaking the kind of rough
53:18patch for for for life was probably 14
53:21to 17 something like that now it's I
53:23think it's 18 to 25
53:26something like that and I I think the
53:27reason for that is is that all the jobs
53:30that the bloody hippies complained about
53:31being doomed to in the 1960s have now
53:34disappeared their problem was oh my God
53:36I'm going to go have to work for a
53:37corporation and get a salary for the
53:40rest of my life you know and then I'll
53:41just end up in it with a pension and
53:43that'll be my whole life it's like well
53:46it seems like a lot better deal
53:48than an endless round of part-time
53:51Starbucks
53:52jobs so you know some of it is that it's
53:56it's just it's it's there's a space now
53:59in our culture that that is lacking for
54:03people to make that transformation from
54:05from adolescence into adulthood and so
54:08it's just it's it's the cost of that is
54:10for stalled it's not a good
54:13thing it's not a good thing do you think
54:17this is affecting uh employers maybe in
54:19choosing younger people for a job and be
54:21saying that they they're seeing this
54:23slower maturation or this saying this
54:25person's got a degree from UFT but I've
54:28heard about things that degrees aren't
54:29worth it well the there's a couple of
54:32problems with the degrees is that
54:33everyone has one that's the first one
54:36which so because scarcity matters
54:38obviously um the second thing is is that
54:42the match between the degree and the
54:43workplace has become less and less
54:45self-evident you know what should happen
54:47when you go to university is you should
54:49learn how to think and formulate
54:51arguments you should learn to think
54:53speak and write that's what the human
54:55ities are for they're to make you
54:57dangerous right because if you can think
54:59and speak and write you're deadly in a
55:02complex job you're exactly what's
55:04necessary but if you don't have that
55:06it's like what the hell good is the
55:07degree so I mean degree in English
55:10literature doesn't prepare you for a job
55:12it could make you think write and speak
55:15which prepares you for any complex job
55:17and that's what's supposed to happen but
55:20increasingly I think that doesn't
55:23happen and the the ERS are waking up to
55:25this very rapidly so and they're I mean
55:28they've already known that most for most
55:30complex positions they have to train
55:32their people now they're thinking well
55:34why do I have to bother with the degree
55:35if I'm going to train them if it isn't
55:37bringing anything of value you see this
55:39in even Fields like law we also seem to
55:41be tightly selected for the capacity to
55:44cooperate and compete so that multiplies
55:46our cognitive ability that's a huge part
55:48of it and then we're also we also seem
55:52to have constructed ourselves so to
55:54speak through sexual Choice into these
55:57General problem general purpose problem
56:00solving creatures and so we've
56:01internalized some of the darwinian
56:03process so you think well most animals
56:07will produce variants of themselves
56:09physically and then most of those
56:10variant die but human beings have built
56:15a l built a mechanism let's say that's
56:18like a game engine I think that's a
56:20really good you know how there are game
56:22engines now that people have devised
56:25their their their computational devices
56:28and you can take a game engine and you
56:29can generate games with it like computer
56:31games so um the game engine is a
56:34mechanism for producing games well
56:36that's what our brains are like our
56:37brains are game engines for producing
56:39games and so what happens is that that
56:42when you think you produce an avatar of
56:44yourself you produce a fictional world
56:47that that Avatar inhabits and maybe you
56:49produce multiple fictional worlds and
56:51multiple avatars that's the you that
56:53could be tomorrow which is what you're
56:55doing when you're planning and you walk
56:57the Avatar through its potential roots
57:00and those that look good you keep and
57:02those that don't look good you kill and
57:04so you can then you can embody the ideas
57:08that you keep and act those out and
57:09hopefully the idea is that when you
57:11embody them you're successful and you
57:13don't get killed and so we're select
57:16we've also SE that when we've been
57:18selecting each other for cognitive
57:19prowess we've been selecting ourselves
57:21for the ability to generate avatars out
57:24of ourself and kill them instead of
57:26dying it's unbelievably brilliant and
57:29and that's really akin to the human
57:32discovery of the future right the future
57:33is a place where variance of you could
57:35exist it's something like that and other
57:37animals don't seem to be able to do that
57:40so we're very sneaky and well so far it
57:43doesn't seem to be working too badly
57:45although we haven't been around for very
57:46long right I mean human beings of our
57:49particular subspecies about 150,000
57:52years something like that which is from
57:54an evolution ar time frame it's like
57:57it's nothing you know it's 280 year old
58:00man it's not very long there's another
58:03way of representing it the dragon of
58:06chaos stands for the potential that
58:08surrounds us inside of that there's the
58:11unknown the unknown that you actually
58:13come into contact with right that's the
58:15unknown as it actually manifests itself
58:17in your world as something you don't
58:19understand instead of just the potential
58:21for that because we say look you know
58:23perfectly well that as you're here
58:25there's all sorts of things you don't
58:27know everywhere but where are they well
58:31they're not manifesting themselves at
58:33the moment they're only in potential but
58:35you could we could have a discussion
58:37that that became argumentative and then
58:39all of a sudden it would be as if
58:41emissaries of that unknown had entered
58:43the space and that's the unknown that's
58:45defined in relationship to what you know
58:47that's what you actually experience
58:49instead of it only being potential it's
58:51a tough thing to get because they're
58:52both unknown right you think well how
58:54can there be two different categories of
58:56unknown well latent and manifest that's
58:58a good way of thinking about it you know
59:00you in a relationship it's going sta but
59:03you know that sooner or later something
59:05will come up okay up from where why up
59:11well from from beneath well what do you
59:13mean beneath well it's from it's from
59:16your complex the person you're in a
59:17relationship with in in with is
59:20complicated and complex that's implicit
59:22in you it's it's inside your conceptual
59:26structure that's that's a way of looking
59:28at it now and then when there's a
59:30disagreement it will manifest itself and
59:32you know that you know that there's
59:33still trouble Brewing ahead in a
59:35relationship always and that's part of
59:37what keeps them
59:40alive there's an interesting piece of
59:42empirical work done on this a while back
59:44so you might think well what does the
59:46optimal relationship look like in terms
59:48of positive and negative emotion you
59:49might say well Utopia nothing but
59:53positive interactions it's it's like no
59:56imagine you get people to
59:57code the interactions they have with
59:59their partner during the day you know
1:00:01you sample it you say was that
1:00:03interaction positive or negative and
1:00:05then what you're trying to do is predict
1:00:06the longevity of the relationship okay
1:00:09so here's the data if it falls under
1:00:12five positive interactions to one
1:00:14negative interaction the relationship
1:00:16doesn't continue fair enough twoo much
1:00:18negative that's easy to understand if it
1:00:21exceeds 11 positive to one negative the
1:00:23relationship doesn't
1:00:26why no
1:00:28challenge right what do you want from
1:00:30your partner Bliss no no no you don't
1:00:34you want periods of Peace punctuated by
1:00:36a good fight and that because that means
1:00:38you respect them means you have
1:00:40something to offer each other and it
1:00:41means that you're both growing and so
1:00:43you don't want the fight to be too
1:00:45dramatic because well then you Retreat
1:00:47you can't settle it but the person that
1:00:49you can completely map and who only does
1:00:51positive things for you it's like a you
1:00:53don't know that person person B they're
1:00:55not communicating with you nor you with
1:00:57them maybe they're just subordinating
1:00:59themselves to you or you to them and
1:01:01you're not growing you want someone who
1:01:03can it's a real relationship is a
1:01:06wrestling match it's a grappling it's a
1:01:08grappling phenomena that you both emerg
1:01:11transformed from and that's what people
1:01:13want they don't want to push over not
1:01:15not unless there's something wrong with
1:01:16them know a narcissistic person who
1:01:19never wants to be challenged will want a
1:01:21partner who does nothing but deliver
1:01:23exactly what they're told to deliver but
1:01:25they will mistreat them beyond belief
1:01:28and perhaps deservedly so what's my
1:01:31advice to young men seeking a woman for
1:01:33marriage and family yeah well okay fine
1:01:38that's the same qu second question
1:01:40that's that's pretty straightforward man
1:01:42I mean you can't eliminate the necessity
1:01:45of being attracted to one another that's
1:01:47important and that's mysterious you know
1:01:50um so for example here's a funny thing
1:01:53if you want one of the things we know
1:01:55that attracts people to one another is
1:01:56bilateral
1:01:57symmetry and so if you take men and you
1:02:01rank them by the symmetry of their
1:02:04faces and then you give the asymmetrical
1:02:07men t-shirts to wear clean t-shirts for
1:02:09a day and the symmetrical men clean
1:02:12t-shirts to wear for a day and then you
1:02:14give the t-shirts to women and you have
1:02:15them rate the the odor the women rate
1:02:19the odor of the symmetrical men as more
1:02:22attractive than the odor of the
1:02:23asymmetrical men and then and there are
1:02:26other uh factors that determine sexual
1:02:29attractiveness that are based on
1:02:31biological factors that are so that
1:02:33deeply embedded in terms of smell for
1:02:35example so uh women also tend to uh not
1:02:40be sexually attracted to the o to the
1:02:42scent of men who's who have if I
1:02:45remember correctly it's RH factors that
1:02:48would make for potential trouble in
1:02:51childbirth and the often the the reason
1:02:54that the women give for not preferring
1:02:56the scent of those men is that they
1:02:58smell too much like their brother it's
1:03:00something like that so there is weird
1:03:02mysterious things that determine whether
1:03:04or not people are sexually and
1:03:05physically attracted to each other and I
1:03:07think it's very important that that's
1:03:08part of a marital relationship the next
1:03:12most important thing is trust man it's
1:03:14like there there's no marriage that's
1:03:17successful without trust you guys you
1:03:19got to tell each other the truth and one
1:03:22of the reasons that Yung believed that
1:03:24marriage as a and an oath and a Carl
1:03:26Yung as a bond was necessary it's really
1:03:30wise it's like you know telling the
1:03:32truth to someone is no simple thing
1:03:34because there's a bunch of things about
1:03:36all of us that are terrible and weak and
1:03:37reprehensible and shameful and all of
1:03:39those things and they kind of have to be
1:03:41brought out into the open and dealt with
1:03:43and you're not going to tell the truth
1:03:46about yourself to someone who can run
1:03:47away screaming when you reveal who you
1:03:49are and so the the marriage bond is
1:03:52something like okay here's the the
1:03:55deal I'm going to handcuff myself to you
1:03:58and you're going to handcuff yourself to
1:03:59me and then we're going to tell each
1:04:01other the truth and neither of us are
1:04:03going to get to run away and so our once
1:04:06we know the truth then we're either
1:04:07going to live together in mutual torment
1:04:09or we're going to try to deal with that
1:04:10truth and straighten ourselves out and
1:04:12straighten ourselves out jointly and
1:04:14that's going to make us us more powerful
1:04:17and more resilient and more and deeper
1:04:20and wiser as we progress together
1:04:22through life and and I think that's
1:04:25absolutely brilliant because if you
1:04:26leave a backd door open man you're going
1:04:28to use it that's for sure and the oath
1:04:29is there and this was yung's commentary
1:04:32on the spiritualization of of the human
1:04:36parir born by Christian marriage for
1:04:38example which which emphasized uh the
1:04:42the what would you call it the
1:04:44subordination of both members of the
1:04:45marital Union to a higher order uh
1:04:50personality that was embodied in the
1:04:52figure of the logos so the the idea is
1:04:54that in in the Christian marriage for
1:04:57example the man isn't the boss and the
1:04:59woman isn't the boss the boss is the
1:05:02mutual personality composed by the
1:05:05seeking of Truth in both of them and
1:05:08that's conceptualized as their their
1:05:10joint subjugation to the logos and that
1:05:12is absolutely dead on man it's like the
1:05:15ruler of your marital life should be
1:05:17your vow to tell each other the truth
1:05:20because like in hard times during your
1:05:23life when you've done something stupid
1:05:24and idiotic that might take you down and
1:05:27you don't have anybody that you can turn
1:05:28to you know if you have a partner that
1:05:30you can trust you can go say Hey you
1:05:32know I made a big Financial mistake man
1:05:34and it's really torturing me and I feel
1:05:36like a complete idiot and it's really
1:05:37dangerous and the person there is going
1:05:40to help you figure out what to do about
1:05:41it and they're going to know that when
1:05:43they make a stupid mistake and they're
1:05:45bloody well going to that they can come
1:05:46and talk to you and that you guys are
1:05:48going to work your way through it and
1:05:50that's a big deal and there's a couple
1:05:52of things our culture gets really wrong
1:05:54wrong and one is it devalues marriage
1:05:56that's really a very bad idea because
1:05:58marriage is marriage is like a third of
1:06:01your life and maybe more and kids are a
1:06:03third of your life and your your your
1:06:06life outside of marriage and kids is a
1:06:08third of your life you know
1:06:11approximately speaking and to miss any
1:06:13of that is a massive massive mistake now
1:06:18having said that I will also say that
1:06:20for some people missing one or more of
1:06:23those is necessary because they have a
1:06:25reason you know maybe they're
1:06:27brilliantly creative artists and they
1:06:29need to devote themselves entirely to
1:06:30their career or they're outstanding in
1:06:32some way and so they need they can
1:06:34justify the sacrifice of one part of
1:06:36that Tri out of being to another part
1:06:39but for but generally speaking it's a
1:06:41very dangerous thing and and it it it
1:06:43shouldn't be done and also kids get an
1:06:46absolutely terrible rap you know because
1:06:48kids are delightful if they're well
1:06:50behaved one of the chapters in my new
1:06:52book is called Don't let let your
1:06:54children do anything that makes you
1:06:55dislike them and you can do that
1:06:57especially if you discuss it thoroughly
1:06:59with your spouse your the person that's
1:07:02helping you discipline the kids and
1:07:03children are the best company because
1:07:06they're really enthusiastic about
1:07:07everything they love doing new things
1:07:09they really love you so they're happy
1:07:11that you're around um all you have to do
1:07:14is make sure they're not too hot and
1:07:16they're not too cold and they've had
1:07:17something to eat and they're not too
1:07:19tired and you don't expect them to stay
1:07:21engaged in something for longer than
1:07:24they can manage cuz we used to take our
1:07:26kids when they were little out to
1:07:27restaurants for example and they could
1:07:28sit there no problem and behave really
1:07:30nicely when they were two and three but
1:07:32they couldn't do it for more than about
1:07:3345 minutes you can't push your luck but
1:07:36I also noticed with little kids is that
1:07:38they got antsy and unreasonable about 5
1:07:41to 10 minutes before the adults did too
1:07:44it's just the adults were too stupid to
1:07:45notice the kids would notice right away
1:07:47so um so back to marriage well you look
1:07:50for someone that you're attracted to
1:07:52that you love and then you look for
1:07:53someone that you can bloody well trust
1:07:55and then you tell them the truth and and
1:07:58that way maybe you can get through life
1:08:00and you can have someone to weave the
1:08:02Rope of your being with and together to
1:08:05make to make your joint rope stronger
1:08:07and you can have some continuity in your
1:08:09narrative and you can have children and
1:08:11then you can have grandchildren and like
1:08:13you can have a life man and there's
1:08:15nothing you're so fortunate if you can
1:08:17manage that and so okay so there's that
1:08:20one so what's my advice to young men
1:08:23seeking a woman for marriage and family
1:08:25yeah well and also you know marry
1:08:28someone you think would be a good mother
1:08:29and that has enough sense generally
1:08:31speaking to know that she wants children
1:08:33now some women don't want children and
1:08:36fair enough and some women perhaps
1:08:38shouldn't have children that's also
1:08:41possible but the general rule of thumb
1:08:44is especially once a woman's you know in
1:08:46her mid 20s if she doesn't know that she
1:08:49wants children or won't admit it unless
1:08:52she has a viciously important reason
1:08:56then she's not oriented properly
1:08:59psychologically she she she isn't she
1:09:01doesn't know what's important in life
1:09:04now that might also be the case with you
1:09:05and it probably is but as a rule of
1:09:07thumb that's a really good one I'm not I
1:09:09wouldn't consider myself either naive or
1:09:12particularly optimistic person I don't
1:09:13think I'm either of those but this isn't
1:09:15actually an idea this is one of the only
1:09:18ideas that I've ever found that I really
1:09:20believe to be Rock Solid I actually
1:09:22think that it's true and and it's very
1:09:24optimistic because it says you can use
1:09:26your sense of meaning to calibrate your
1:09:28progress through life it but but there's
1:09:30rules you have to aim at the highest
1:09:32possible good that you can conceive now
1:09:34and and that's subject update because
1:09:36what the hell do you know but you start
1:09:38by aiming at the star you can see rather
1:09:40than the dimmer one that you can't yet
1:09:42perceive and then you decide that you're
1:09:44going to do that honestly right there's
1:09:46that that's a big decision so the first
1:09:48decision I think in some sense is a
1:09:50decision of love you're going to decide
1:09:52that being is worth while and that
1:09:54you're going to work for its betterment
1:09:56and that's a decision that's based on
1:09:58love and the second decision is based on
1:09:59truth having made that decision you're
1:10:01going to play a straight game having
1:10:03made those two decisions I think that
1:10:05you can allow your sense of meaning to
1:10:06calibrate your pathway and then what's
1:10:08so interesting is that you hit a state
1:10:11that's as close to paradisal as you're
1:10:13going to hit right away because being
1:10:15engaged like that it's better to be
1:10:17engaged in the solution of a complex
1:10:20problem than not to have a problem at
1:10:22all and that's that's no different than
1:10:25saying it's better for there to be being
1:10:27than non-being because being is a
1:10:30problem and so if you want to have no
1:10:33problems then you have no being and and
1:10:36you could say well being is so miserable
1:10:37that maybe that's the route we should
1:10:39take and fair enough but maybe you can
1:10:41have your cake and eat it too you can
1:10:42have the damn problem it can be a
1:10:45problem worth solving and you can be so
1:10:47engaged in solving the problem that it
1:10:49justifies the fact that the problem
1:10:51exists and then you get then you get to
1:10:53have
1:10:54you get to have the problem and the
1:10:56solution at the same time and maybe
1:10:57that's better than not having the
1:10:58problem at all and I believe that
1:11:00because one of the things I have seen
1:11:01and I've seen this so interesting been
1:11:03so interesting when I've been lecturing
1:11:05to people especially more recently and
1:11:07and this has also manifested on you
1:11:10itself on
1:11:11YouTube I'm talking to people a lot
1:11:13about responsibility and it's young men
1:11:15in particular that seem to be responding
1:11:16to that and I think that's partly
1:11:17because I think that young women in some
1:11:19sense have their responsibility map
1:11:22already laid out for them it's it's also
1:11:24less voluntary in some sense for women
1:11:26because they have more complicated
1:11:27problems to solve in the first part of
1:11:29their life right because they have to
1:11:30get the family problem solved but
1:11:32whatever I've been talking very in a
1:11:36very delineated man about responsibility
1:11:39which is a strange thing to sell to
1:11:41people but responsibility is what gives
1:11:43your life meaning and so then you might
1:11:45say well then take on Ultimate
1:11:47responsibility and what happens you have
1:11:49an ultimately meaningful life then you
1:11:51might say well if your life is
1:11:52ultimately meaningful doesn't matter if
1:11:54it's punctuated by tragedy or even
1:11:57predicated on tragedy it's worth
1:12:01it and I think that's true and
1:12:04everything I've seen indicates to me
1:12:06that's true every time I get my clients
1:12:08to take on more responsibility you know
1:12:11and it isn't an injunction you're a bad
1:12:13person you should take on responsibility
1:12:14it has nothing to do with that you can
1:12:16Define the damn responsibility it isn't
1:12:18something that that someone else should
1:12:20impose on you it's not a matter of doing
1:12:21what you should do in some abstract
1:12:23manner it's it's not that it's the
1:12:27choice of what game you're going to play
1:12:29and you know you can play the game of
1:12:30the Seeker I would say and if you play
1:12:32that game then everyone wins and it's
1:12:34the best game you can play and so the
1:12:37the the answer in some sense to the
1:12:39tragedy of life to the catastrophe of
1:12:41life to the fall is to adopt the
1:12:45responsibility of mortality that goes
1:12:47along with that and to play that game
1:12:49maximally and paradoxically it's in the
1:12:52willingness to do that that the solution
1:12:54emerges and I don't you know I have done
1:12:57my best with every single thing I've
1:12:59talked to you guys about I have done my
1:13:01best to do what doeski does in his
1:13:03novels which is I make a proposition and
1:13:05then I spend months or years trying to
1:13:08figure out if I can take the bloody
1:13:10thing apart if there's something wrong
1:13:12with it because I want to find out I
1:13:13want to hit it with a hammer and see if
1:13:15it breaks and what I've been trying to
1:13:17do is to tell you all the things that
1:13:19I've gathered let's say or or laid out
1:13:22or articulated or discovered over the
1:13:24last 30 years that I have not been able
1:13:26to break with the biggest hammer that I
1:13:28could take to them and I guess that's
1:13:30the fundamental one is that I I believe
1:13:33that the the um the idea that lurks in
1:13:37these
1:13:39images derived from very different
1:13:44cultures it's the same
1:13:47idea life is
1:13:50suffering right indisputable
1:13:55what do you do about
1:13:57that you you voluntarily accept it and
1:14:01then strive to overcome the suffering
1:14:04that's a consequence of that and you do
1:14:07that for you and you do that in a way
1:14:09that makes it better for other people
1:14:11and then that works and one question
1:14:14might be well how well does it work and
1:14:16the answer is you the only way that you
1:14:19can find out is by trying
1:14:21it that's it that's the existential
1:14:23element of it the proof is to be derived
1:14:26by the Incarnation of the attitude in
1:14:28your own life no one can tell you how it
1:14:31will work for you it's the thing that
1:14:34your destiny is to discover that and you
1:14:37have to make you have to make the
1:14:39decisions to begin with It's like
1:14:41because you can't do this without
1:14:43commitment you have to commit to it
1:14:45first that's the act of faith that that
1:14:47kard was so insistent upon you have to
1:14:50say I'm going to act as if being is good
1:14:53I'm going to act as if truth is the
1:14:55pathway to Enlightenment I'm going to
1:14:57act as if I should pursue the deepest
1:14:59meaning possible in my life and there's
1:15:01there's reasons to do none of those
1:15:04they're real reasons so it's really a
1:15:07decision but you you can't find out what
1:15:09the consequence of the decision is
1:15:10unless you make the decision I think the
1:15:12same thing happens when you get married
1:15:14by the way said if you think you might
1:15:16leave you're not
1:15:18married and then you think well the
1:15:20marriage didn't succeed it's like well
1:15:21maybe you were never married because the
1:15:23rule is you don't get to leave and
1:15:26there's a reason for that rule now I'm
1:15:28not saying that there aren't situations
1:15:30where there should be exceptions made
1:15:31for that that's not the point the point
1:15:33is that there's some games you don't get
1:15:35to play unless you're all
1:15:36in and the other thing that's so
1:15:39interesting about being alive is that
1:15:40you're all
1:15:42in no matter what you do you're all in
1:15:46this is going to kill
1:15:47you so I think you might as well play
1:15:50the most magnificent game you can while
1:15:53you're waiting because do you have
1:15:56anything better to do really why not
1:15:59pick the best thing possible that you
1:16:01could
1:16:02do why not do that maybe you could
1:16:04justify your wretched existence to
1:16:06yourself that way I think you could
1:16:08that's what it looks like you know
1:16:10people find such meaning in the
1:16:12responsibilities they adopt it stops
1:16:14making them ask questions about what
1:16:16life is for if you have a newborn child
1:16:18for
1:16:19example like unless you're really in a
1:16:22bad way psychotically depressed or or
1:16:24maybe your personality really needs some
1:16:26retooling you stop thinking
1:16:29about anything but ensuring that that
1:16:32baby is doing well and if someone comes
1:16:35along and asks you an existential
1:16:37question about your commitment to that
1:16:39the right response is why are you asking
1:16:42me such stupid questions when when the
1:16:44when this this is manifesting itself
1:16:47right in front of your eyes like how
1:16:48blind can you be that isn't a time for
1:16:51for questions about the meaning of life
1:16:52that the answer is right in front of you
1:16:55and if you can't see it it's not because
1:16:57life has no meaning it's because you're
1:16:59blind I mean that's what the image of of
1:17:02of the virgin mother and the child is
1:17:04all about it's like what's the answer to
1:17:06the meaning of life here's an answer
1:17:09it's like well I'm going to criticize
1:17:11that well go right ahead you know it's
1:17:14like it's like what what you're you're
1:17:15like a you're like a what do you call
1:17:18that a termite knowing on a temple
1:17:21there's no there's no utility in that
1:17:23sort of criticism
1:17:26you're it's blindness and it's the same
1:17:29thing with regards to the path of the
1:17:31hero it's like it glistens in front of
1:17:34you and you can criticize it it's
1:17:37like fine put the cart before the horse
1:17:41and and see how far you
1:17:45get so I thought to bring full closure
1:17:48to the class I was trying to
1:17:51solve this ter terrible puzzle that
1:17:54confronted me for and many other people
1:17:57about how it was that human beings got
1:18:00themselves in such a tangle about what
1:18:01they believed such a tangle that we were
1:18:04pointing the ultimate weapons of
1:18:06Destruction at one another which by the
1:18:08way we are still
1:18:11doing and I thought okay well I
1:18:13understand that we need our belief
1:18:15systems they Orient us and that means
1:18:18there will be conflict between belief
1:18:20systems and that can be a catastrophe
1:18:22and that's being played out everywhere
1:18:23again in very many
1:18:25ways what's the solution to that well
1:18:28one possibility is there's no solution
1:18:30it's just Mayhem all the way around
1:18:33could be the case but it seemed to me as
1:18:36I delved into it that the proper
1:18:37solution to that was to live
1:18:39properly as an individual because you're
1:18:42more powerful than you think way more
1:18:45powerful than you think I mean God only
1:18:46knows what you are in the final
1:18:49analysis you're blind to your own
1:18:51weaknesses but you're also blind to your
1:18:53own strengths and so then I think well
1:18:55if you got your act together it'd be
1:18:57better for you and instantly it would be
1:18:58better for your family assuming they
1:19:00wanted you to get your act together and
1:19:02not everyone does but and then it would
1:19:04be better for the community it's like
1:19:06how far could you take that if you
1:19:07stopped wasting time and if you stopped
1:19:09lying and if you oriented yourself to to
1:19:11the highest possible good that you could
1:19:13conceive of and you committed to that
1:19:15how much good could you
1:19:17do well I would say why don't you find
1:19:21out
1:19:24so that's what I think you should do you
1:19:27should find out you don't have anything
1:19:29better to do and there's nothing in it
1:19:31as far as I've been able to tell there's
1:19:32nothing in it but
1:19:36good
1:19:38so maybe you could sort yourself out so
1:19:41that you wanted nothing but the
1:19:43good and and then maybe you could help
1:19:45make that manifest in the world and
1:19:48maybe we wouldn't have all these
1:19:50terrible problems then at least we'd
1:19:52have few fewer of them and that would be
1:19:53a start
1:19:56so it's the it's the the answer to the
1:19:59problem of humanity is the is the is the
1:20:03Integrity of the
1:20:05individual that's the
1:20:07answer so and states that are predicated
1:20:11on that realization are
1:20:13healthy so and states that aren't are
1:20:16doomed to stagnation and catastrophic
1:20:20collapse and personality that are
1:20:23predicated
1:20:25on self tyranny and the tyranny of
1:20:27others are doomed
1:20:29and doomed to
1:20:32collapse so and then you think well
1:20:35what's the barrier and the barriers is
1:20:37are you willing to accept the
1:20:38responsibility and part of the answer to
1:20:40that is reduce the damn responsibility
1:20:43until it's tolerable you don't have to
1:20:45fix everything at once you could just
1:20:47start by fixing the things that you
1:20:48could
1:20:49fix or you could even do it more
1:20:55you could do it with even less
1:20:56self-sacrifice you could start by fixing
1:20:57only the things that you want to fix God
1:21:00you can get a massive way that way so do
1:21:04it see what happens that's what you
1:21:06should have been taught in University
1:21:08right from the beginning it's like aim
1:21:09at the highest good tool yourself into
1:21:12something that can attain it and go out
1:21:14there and manifest it in the world and
1:21:17everything that everything that comes
1:21:18your way will
1:21:21be everything that comes your way will
1:21:23be a blessing and
1:21:26so all you have to do is give up your
1:21:28resentment and your hatred I know that's
1:21:31a hard thing to give up because you have
1:21:33plenty of reason for
1:21:36it that's probably a good place to stop
1:21:40so it's a
1:21:46pleasure when both of us were very ill
1:21:49over the last 3 or four years and my
1:21:53wife almost died and so did I and all
1:21:56that unfolded over a period that lasted
1:21:59a few years and we were apart for a lot
1:22:02of that and when we came back together
1:22:05we were quite distant from one another
1:22:07partly because well I was still quite
1:22:09ill and Tammy was still recovering and
1:22:12well many things had happened in the
1:22:14interim to say the
1:22:16least and it wasn't a straightforward
1:22:19thing for us to put ourselves back back
1:22:23together as a couple we the will was
1:22:28there we had had a practice of
1:22:33consciously dating for
1:22:36decades so when we first had little kids
1:22:39and this happens to people who have
1:22:41little kids we found that we were
1:22:45separating
1:22:47intimately and that's because when
1:22:49you're at that stage of your life and
1:22:51you're developing your career and you
1:22:52have little kids it's like sex is
1:22:55priority number 11 on a priority list of
1:22:5710 and you only ever get to Priority
1:23:00five and so it's not that it's
1:23:02unimportant it's that it it becomes
1:23:04displaced and that's understandable but
1:23:08it's not a good medium to long-term
1:23:10solution it has to be moved back up the
1:23:13priority list to some minimally
1:23:16acceptable degree and the question is
1:23:20that you have to negotiate as a couple
1:23:21is what is that minimally acceptable
1:23:23degree and people hate having that
1:23:25conversation because people will act out
1:23:29sexual acts say that they'll never talk
1:23:31about which is a strange
1:23:34reality um when I was working as a
1:23:37clinician I used to have these
1:23:39conversations with my clients especially
1:23:41now and then I would have both my client
1:23:43and their husband or wife in the office
1:23:46with me to talk over issues like this
1:23:48and one of the things I would ask them
1:23:50which they absolutely hated was well h
1:23:52often should you have
1:23:53sex and they would come up with all
1:23:56sorts of reasons to not give an answer
1:23:58to that question like well we don't want
1:24:00to make it so formal and we don't really
1:24:02want to uh we don't want to take the
1:24:04spontaneity out of it and it's like yeah
1:24:06really you're having a lot of
1:24:07spontaneous sex are you really that's
1:24:10actually you've been married 10 years 15
1:24:12years that there's so much spontaneous
1:24:15sex that you just don't want to mess
1:24:17with that it's like why are you in my
1:24:19office so so that's just
1:24:22delusional and so but it was still very
1:24:26difficult to pin either of them down and
1:24:28I suppose that's because you know maybe
1:24:30the husband says well 15 times a week
1:24:33and the wife says once every two years
1:24:35and
1:24:37that's and neither of them want to admit
1:24:40that that's what they want or need and
1:24:42so they won't talk about it and so you
1:24:44have to Corner people if you're a
1:24:48treacherous therapist and the way you do
1:24:51that is by starting with something
1:24:54absurd it's like well how about once
1:24:56every 2 years and both of them pretty
1:25:00much agree almost instantly that that's
1:25:03probably a little on the scarce side and
1:25:05then you might say well why how about
1:25:07four times a day and virtually without
1:25:10exception although not always both
1:25:12parties agree that that's
1:25:15probably aiming for the Stars let's say
1:25:19but then now you've got people nicely
1:25:21trapped because you know it's somewhere
1:25:24between four times a day and once every
1:25:27two years and then you can pull in the
1:25:30walls it's like well how about six times
1:25:32a week or how about once every 3 months
1:25:35and you know that's a lot closer right
1:25:38still not that close but it's a lot
1:25:39closer and generally my experience was
1:25:42that people who have relatively
1:25:45productive and engaged and
1:25:48multi-dimensional lives settle on
1:25:51something very varying between once to
1:25:53three times a week and that's that's a
1:25:59close approximation and I've also
1:26:01noticed that couples who aren't intimate
1:26:05physically about once a week at
1:26:08minimum things tend to deteriorate
1:26:11across time and the relationship tends
1:26:13not to hold I've also noticed that
1:26:17unless you spend about 90 minutes a week
1:26:20listening to and talking to your partner
1:26:22about practical matters of the domestic
1:26:25economy and your shared life you also
1:26:28build up a huge backlog of undisclosed
1:26:32communication and 10 years from now that
1:26:36will fall on you in the form of a
1:26:39divorce case and you'll spend all the
1:26:42time you could have been talking at home
1:26:45talking in court which I wouldn't
1:26:48recommend and so and I also think it's
1:26:51very difficult to to get that 90 minutes
1:26:54or 120 minutes or whatever it happens to
1:26:57be a week of intimate time together
1:26:59unless you first sort out the 90 minutes
1:27:03or 120 Minutes of necessary
1:27:06communication
1:27:08but it's worth the
1:27:11discussion it's like you could ask
1:27:13yourself first all right hypothetically
1:27:17you could have what you
1:27:18wanted but first you have to admit what
1:27:21it is is and that's a hard thing to
1:27:24think through right cuz you really got
1:27:25to face yourself when you when you ask
1:27:29that question cuz you have to ask
1:27:32yourself well what's the minimum sexual
1:27:34commitment I seem to require so that I
1:27:37wouldn't be tempted say to
1:27:40stray and you might say to yourself well
1:27:42I'd never be tempted to stray it's like
1:27:44never is really not the right answer in
1:27:46that
1:27:47situation right because it it sort of
1:27:49means in some sense that you're already
1:27:513 orders
1:27:53dead so I don't think it's actually a
1:27:56moral virtue to assume that no matter
1:27:58what you wouldn't be tempted to stray
1:28:01and I'm certainly not saying that the
1:28:02Temptation is a good thing or that the
1:28:04straying is either but the proclivity to
1:28:07want to if you're completely deprived
1:28:10might be the vestages of a virtue it
1:28:14means you're you still got to spark
1:28:16inside you and so you might say to
1:28:19yourself
1:28:21well believe it would
1:28:23be this this is what I seem to need and
1:28:28want and then maybe your partner
1:28:31could ask herself or himself the same
1:28:35question and then maybe you could have a
1:28:37discussion about now that's an awkward
1:28:39discussion but and there's some rules
1:28:41for that too it's like be willing to
1:28:43talk about it 20 times and do it really
1:28:46badly because you're not going to do it
1:28:48very well to begin with and 20 times
1:28:51isn't that man many if you're going to
1:28:53make love to your partner let's say
1:28:55three times a week for the next 30 years
1:28:58that's 30,000
1:29:00times a dreadful proposition that is
1:29:06but talking about that 20 times is
1:29:09probably not that much of an investment
1:29:11given that degree of
1:29:13return so and it is useful to allow
1:29:17yourself and your partner to understand
1:29:19that that's going to not be an easy
1:29:21conversation that you're going to do it
1:29:23stupidly and badly and one of the things
1:29:26I used to tell my clients encourage my
1:29:29clients to do that's not tell them
1:29:32encourage them to do was to schedule
1:29:35dates if they're married and their
1:29:37objection was always the same it's like
1:29:40well we did that before we got I got
1:29:42married so I didn't have to do that
1:29:43anymore it's like really that's why you
1:29:45got married did you tell your wife that
1:29:46before you got married that I'm going to
1:29:48get I'm going to marry you so that I
1:29:50never have to spend it a single moment
1:29:53for the rest of my life ever thinking
1:29:55about how to be romantically interesting
1:29:57to you what do you think shall we get
1:30:00married it's like that's generally not
1:30:03the offer that's on the table and if you
1:30:04think that all of that romance is going
1:30:06to manifest itself spontaneously it's
1:30:09like well what what what do you think
1:30:11you're in some sort of delusional
1:30:12Hollywood fairy tale it's like that's
1:30:14not going to happen it didn't happen
1:30:16when you were single or if it did it
1:30:19rarely happened it's certainly not going
1:30:22to happen when you're married you have
1:30:24to put
1:30:25some you have to put some time and
1:30:27attention to it and then you might think
1:30:29well how could we make it go so that if
1:30:32we put time and intention to it it would
1:30:34be so clearly worthwhile that we' never
1:30:36have a second's doubt about whether or
1:30:38not it was a good idea and that's a good
1:30:41thing to aim at and after Tammy and I
1:30:44were so ill and separated we had spent a
1:30:47lot of
1:30:49time practicing dating
1:30:52and we had got good at it and that's
1:30:56what we had when we
1:30:59were recovering
1:31:01from death and coming back together and
1:31:07that was great that was a great thing
1:31:11and you know they say practice makes
1:31:13perfect and so if you really want
1:31:18something like you really want something
1:31:21why not aim at it and if you really want
1:31:23something and you're aiming at it why
1:31:25not communicate about it and dream you
1:31:28know you can dream together you can
1:31:29think well if we had the Romantic life
1:31:31we
1:31:33wanted what would you want that's
1:31:36something to ask your partner what would
1:31:37you want something to ask yourself if I
1:31:39could have what I wanted that's to knock
1:31:40and ask right and to seek if I could
1:31:43have what I wanted what would it look
1:31:44like you know
1:31:47and and then you can stumble forward
1:31:50stupidly and approximate getting it and
1:31:54with some
1:31:57practice maybe you'll get it and what a
1:32:00good deal that is and then you know
1:32:02maybe you won't be completely old and
1:32:04worn out by the time you're 40 and
1:32:08completely devoid of any interest in
1:32:10your partner and cynical and bitter and
1:32:12searching around for an alternative and
1:32:14carping about how appalling your wife is
1:32:17to your friends
1:32:19and that's a pretty damn dismal old
1:32:21alternative to a bit of dreaming and
1:32:24some
1:32:25communication and so and I think you I
1:32:28think not only can you do that within an
1:32:30ethical framework I think that if you
1:32:32don't do it you're not operating within
1:32:35an ethical
1:32:38framework so it's perfectly reasonable
1:32:41to pull up the sexual impulse let's say
1:32:44and
1:32:45elevated to the status of the highest
1:32:48ethical Endeavor a strange way of
1:32:51thinking about it
1:32:53but but the alternative is just
1:32:57not what anyone wants so let's say um
1:33:02you're having an argument with your
1:33:03partner and you say you're a stupid
1:33:06person and you've always been a stupid
1:33:09person and as far as I can tell as far
1:33:11into the future as I can see you're
1:33:13going to remain a stupid person so what
1:33:16are they supposed to do what are they
1:33:17going to do when you say that they're
1:33:20going to cry like if you mean it they're
1:33:23going to get angry if you mean it and
1:33:26they're not going to like you very much
1:33:28and why is that well it's like you it's
1:33:31it's assault basically the only way
1:33:33really the only thing that you can do in
1:33:35a situation like that is walk
1:33:37away ignore it respond in kind or it
1:33:40degenerates into violence that's it
1:33:43because there's no discussion you
1:33:45haven't left the person anywhere to go
1:33:46you've gone right to the top of their
1:33:48hierarchy and said everything about you
1:33:50is wrong and worse than that all the
1:33:53mechanisms that we could use to correct
1:33:54it won't work so those are fighting
1:33:58words so don't do that unless you want
1:33:59to have a fight so then you might say
1:34:01well what would you do instead and the
1:34:03answer is deliver the least amount of
1:34:05information you possibly can and so
1:34:08let's say you come home and your person
1:34:11is watching TV and you were kind of
1:34:13hoping they'd greet you at the door you
1:34:15can't you shouldn't break down into
1:34:16tears and say you're a stupid person
1:34:18you've always been a stupid person and
1:34:19you're going to be a stupid person in
1:34:21the future you should
1:34:23say I have this peculiarity and that is
1:34:26that when I come home I don't have
1:34:28enough confidence to just be happy I
1:34:31would like you to come and say just shut
1:34:34the TV off for 2 minutes come to the
1:34:36front door and say hello then you can go
1:34:38back and watch your TV would it be okay
1:34:40if you did that and they'll
1:34:42think well you'll have to pay for it
1:34:45somehow but then they'll they'll
1:34:47probably do it and so but the thing is
1:34:50is you got to specify the routine that
1:34:52you want transformed at the highest
1:34:54possible level of resolution and you
1:34:55want to you want to recommend the
1:34:58minimal necessary change that will
1:35:00satisfy you so you can't
1:35:04say if you love me you'd know how to
1:35:06greet me at the door H not helpful CU
1:35:09they're
1:35:10stupid right and so are you so you have
1:35:13to spell it out it's like what do you
1:35:15want exactly what would make you
1:35:17satisfied and then you have to have your
1:35:19person like grud inly practice that a
1:35:22few times and you have to let them do it
1:35:24very badly and also in a bad temper and
1:35:27then you have to reward them for it and
1:35:30then maybe 3 months later they'll do it
1:35:32properly so you you need to know that
1:35:35because that's what people are like it's
1:35:36very hard for them to learn new things
1:35:38and they're very resistant to it but
1:35:39they're very responsive to reward so
1:35:42another thing this is partly what BF
1:35:45Skinner figured out so when he was
1:35:46training rats and he wanted rat to do
1:35:49something one of the things he would do
1:35:50is he put maybe he was going to train
1:35:52the rat to climb a a little ladder and I
1:35:56mean he could get rats to climb ladders
1:35:58and then climb across like the little
1:35:59monkey bars and then spin around three
1:36:01times and then you know whack a ball and
1:36:03then eat something like he got
1:36:04incredibly complex Behavior out of rats
1:36:07and the way he did that was patience so
1:36:10he put the ladder in the cage and the
1:36:12rat would just run around doing rat
1:36:14things and then it would put its hand on
1:36:16the on the first run and Skinner would
1:36:19give it a pellet and so he did you know
1:36:22after even once the rat's going to be
1:36:25like stand in the immediate vicinity of
1:36:28the ladder and then the frequency with
1:36:30which it's going to go like this is just
1:36:31increased so then it does it again bang
1:36:33pellet well soon the rat is just going
1:36:35like this right so then you wait until
1:36:38the rat tries the other hand so you give
1:36:40it a pellet then well then it's going
1:36:42like this and then because it's going to
1:36:44get bored it'll go like this it'll hit
1:36:46the next stair bang you give it a pellet
1:36:47soon the route's climbing and doing all
1:36:49the little things you want it to do now
1:36:51the problem with that is you have to be
1:36:53patient you have to wait till the rat
1:36:55does what you want okay that's more
1:36:57relationship advice wait till the rat
1:37:00does what you want and then reward it
1:37:03and it's unbelievably useful and I like
1:37:05it's also extraordinarily positive I
1:37:07mean I'm being you know
1:37:10comical in so far as I can manage that
1:37:13about the situation but people love
1:37:15reward and they love attention people
1:37:18love attention more than anything else
1:37:20and so
1:37:21if you're you watch through the day and
1:37:24when your partner does something that's
1:37:26good say man that was good or something
1:37:29like that you can be inventive and then
1:37:31they'll do it more and if you do that a
1:37:33whole bunch like for a year they'll be
1:37:36doing things that are good for you just
1:37:38all the time but you have to be patient
1:37:41which is very annoying and you have to
1:37:43suppress your response to only respond
1:37:46to negative things you know because what
1:37:49we know about the expectancy models is
1:37:52that a deviation from expectation
1:37:55produces a burst of negative emotions
1:37:57you know so you come home and the whole
1:37:59house is clean but there's like I don't
1:38:03know the dog has shed on the rug or
1:38:06something and the person Overlook that's
1:38:07it's like you're not going to see the
1:38:08clean house you're going to see the rug
1:38:10with the dog fur on it you're going to
1:38:11say why didn't you clean up the rug with
1:38:14the dog fur and they're going to say
1:38:15good luck getting me to clean up the
1:38:17house again and you know because the
1:38:19thing is is the exceptions stands out
1:38:22and what's done doesn't and the reason
1:38:24for that is you can just ignore what's
1:38:26done because it's done it doesn't get in
1:38:28your way so it gets invisible really
1:38:30quickly so you really got to watch that
1:38:33tendency one of the things n said was
1:38:35that if you really want to punish
1:38:37someone you don't punish them when they
1:38:39do something wrong cuz they expect that
1:38:42that's not a punishment they expect that
1:38:44they might even be relieved by it you
1:38:46want to punish them when they do
1:38:47something right because then you'll
1:38:50really hurt them and so that's something
1:38:52to think about and if you're in a
1:38:53relationship man if someone's done
1:38:55something right do not punish them you
1:38:58do that two or three times and that's it
1:39:00and you're not going to get them to do
1:39:02that anymore so judiciousness watch what
1:39:06they're doing if something happens that
1:39:08good that's good notice it and you know
1:39:11if they've done a bunch of things don't
1:39:12concentrate on the things they did wrong
1:39:14that's not smart it's really hard on
1:39:17them too like this in some sense this
1:39:19sounds manipulative and self sish you
1:39:21know because I'm teaching you how to
1:39:24train your partner but but you should
1:39:27also teach them how to train you because
1:39:29it would be really nice if you could
1:39:31come home and the person would say well
1:39:32what did you do today and you say you
1:39:34know here's a bunch of things I did and
1:39:35they said you they say well this looks
1:39:37really good and that was great and why
1:39:38don't you do some more of that and
1:39:39you're like oh boy it was a great day
1:39:42and so you know you can train them to
1:39:45train you properly and that's a really
1:39:48helpful thing especially if you do it
1:39:49over a few years you know you can that's
1:39:52how you have a good relationship cuz
1:39:53you're both clueless as hell to begin
1:39:55with you don't know even what would make
1:39:58you happy much less what would make the
1:40:00other person happy and so you got to
1:40:01figure these things out bit by bit and
1:40:03then you have to inform each other and
1:40:06then you have to
1:40:07be patient enough to let your partner do
1:40:10these things really badly I'll give you
1:40:12another example
1:40:13sometimes sometimes I I see couples
1:40:16sporadically in my in my clinical
1:40:19practice I'm not a couple
1:40:21counselor and so but sometimes when I'm
1:40:25working with someone there's an issue
1:40:27that needs to be discussed with with
1:40:29both people because otherwise it's just
1:40:30stupid and one of the things I often
1:40:33recommend to people especially once they
1:40:36have kids is that they set aside to use
1:40:39an
1:40:51we're just not doing that you know
1:40:53that's what we did before we got married
1:40:56um they'll say well my partner would
1:40:58never go for that um they've got a bunch
1:41:01of excuses why that isn't going to work
1:41:03and so I've heard all those excuses I
1:41:06know all of them and then maybe I
1:41:08convince them yeah yeah sure I know this
1:41:10is stupid it's awkward it's it's it's uh
1:41:14artificial that's okay just try it once
1:41:16so then they go and try it and then they
1:41:18come back and they say we had an
1:41:19absolutely miserable time really we had
1:41:21a miserable time we couldn't agree on
1:41:23what movie to go to and then you know
1:41:25she took me to her movie and I really
1:41:27didn't like it and so we fought all the
1:41:28way home we're never doing that again
1:41:30and I say well really you've got 30
1:41:33years 400 Days that's 12,000 days okay
1:41:37so you're not going to do that you're
1:41:38going to spend the next 12,000 days
1:41:41without having any real romantic
1:41:44evenings and interactions with your
1:41:45spouse that's your plan and I like doing
1:41:48I like doing arithmetic with my clients
1:41:50they hate that they hate they hate
1:41:53arithmetic it's like well no that sounds
1:41:55like a bad idea said okay well would you
1:41:58like some romance in your life or you
1:42:00just done with that well well really
1:42:02like you know people can go for a long
1:42:04time with no romance at all say well no
1:42:07maybe we'd like some of that well how
1:42:09much once a year well no once a month
1:42:14well no once every two weeks well
1:42:18sometimes people are really busy it's
1:42:19like okay that beats the hell out of
1:42:21zero once a week twice a week okay
1:42:24whatever we're going to we're going to
1:42:25start with a range okay what would a
1:42:27good evening look like like if you could
1:42:29both get exactly what you
1:42:32wanted what would it look like well then
1:42:34they have to think about that because
1:42:35the the previous theory was my stupid
1:42:38partner should know what I like and
1:42:40that's what their the partner is
1:42:41thinking too it's like good luck with
1:42:43that because no they don't have a clue
1:42:44especially if they're men they don't
1:42:46have a clue so you have to tell them
1:42:48what you want and how they could deliver
1:42:50it and vice versa which is very awkward
1:42:53and horrible and then you have to
1:42:54practice it for 6 months cuz you know it
1:42:57takes a lot of practice to do something
1:42:59sophisticated really well and then if
1:43:01you do that it's like poof you got it
1:43:03for the rest of your life how many
1:43:05chances do you think you'll have in your
1:43:07life for for like a serious high quality
1:43:10intimate
1:43:11relationship what do you guys think how
1:43:13many chances are you going to have for
1:43:15that four okay that's good that's good
1:43:19yeah I would say you problem pop out at
1:43:21about five okay two down
1:43:27so okay so you know that's not that many
1:43:32chances plus you get old quick you know
1:43:37by the time you're
1:43:3845 you're not going to have a family and
1:43:41well you can do that sometimes if you're
1:43:43male if you're female maybe but it gets
1:43:45pretty rough and you're looking probably
1:43:47at that point at a fair bit of inv vitro
1:43:50and that sort of interaction it's tough
1:43:52It's hard on people so you know not only
1:43:54do you not have that many chances you
1:43:56don't have that much time so you got to
1:43:59get it right so if you get it wrong it
1:44:01costs you like maybe it'll cost you 5
1:44:03years 5 years is a long time so and
1:44:07three fiveyear costs is
1:44:11like you've lost things there that you
1:44:14can't replace okay so that's one part of
1:44:16it is you don't have that many chances
1:44:18and it's costly to to burn up the time
1:44:22okay the second thing
1:44:28is a divorce is very
1:44:30complicated like it's not so bad if you
1:44:33get divorced to someone who's
1:44:35reasonable but often the reason that
1:44:37you're getting divorced is that one or
1:44:39the other or both of you aren't that
1:44:41reasonable and what that might mean is
1:44:43that you might be negotiating with
1:44:45someone whose basic goal is to make sure
1:44:47that you don't have another day of
1:44:48success in the next 20 years and if
1:44:51that's their goal they will attain
1:44:54it so and there's lots of ways people do
1:44:57that and they usually do it by holding
1:44:58their children
1:44:59hostage and people will definitely do
1:45:02that they do it all the time you know so
1:45:06you want to avoid that and then you know
1:45:08then of course it's hard on the
1:45:09relationship you have with your children
1:45:11and like that's those are probably the
1:45:14most relation important relationships
1:45:16you have in your life you know it's like
1:45:18might be parents might be siblings might
1:45:22be your your partner might be your kids
1:45:25but I think when it comes right down to
1:45:26it your parents are old and so are you
1:45:30but your kids aren't and they're just as
1:45:33close plus they need you and so you
1:45:36start twisting and messing that about
1:45:38boy it's hard on your psyche it's hard
1:45:40on the kids too so you know so then I'm
1:45:43just thinking about that and what you
1:45:45said about how that's a cost if you if
1:45:47you mess it up that and that's like a
1:45:495year cost that's that's cost you right
1:45:51oh and it might be a 15year cost if
1:45:53you're in a custody battle and it'll
1:45:55cost you a quar of a million dollars
1:45:57right or yeah but like is it then would
1:46:00you say like being a psychologist that
1:46:02it's better for people to like pursue a
1:46:06relationship that's like not good they
1:46:09continue to do that and possibly incur
1:46:10further cost than it is to just cut it
1:46:13off because it wouldn't divorce okay
1:46:15it's a complicated question what I would
1:46:17say is don't make the kind of mistakes
1:46:20that get you into such a stupid
1:46:21relationship to begin with okay cuz
1:46:23that's the answer to that question and
1:46:25the way you do that is by trying not to
1:46:28delude yourself any more than is
1:46:29absolutely necessary and that means when
1:46:32you're in the damn relationship tell the
1:46:34person the truth and try to figure out
1:46:36what the truth is for you and don't put
1:46:38up with any nonsense and stand up for
1:46:41yourself and also aim towards the good
1:46:44you know if you do all those things then
1:46:46your relationship is probably going to
1:46:48work if you're trying to do all those
1:46:50things really and you have a partner
1:46:52that will not do that then
1:46:56leave
1:46:58but it's a rare person who won't do that
1:47:01if they're stepped along the way
1:47:03properly and they learn how to do it now
1:47:04not everyone's like that cuz you do run
1:47:06into some people who are basically
1:47:08devoted towards Mayhem and trouble you
1:47:12know but usually you know a person is a
1:47:14balance of striving for the good and you
1:47:17know messing about in the hell and you
1:47:20know you're both like that when you
1:47:21start a relationship and you try to tilt
1:47:23it towards the good and then you won't
1:47:25run into that problem so but you have to
1:47:27do that right from the beginning of the
1:47:29relationship you know it doesn't take
1:47:30that much to corrupt a relationship so
1:47:33that it's not really salvageable enough
1:47:35mistakes three or four acts of
1:47:38infidelity you're done you're not going
1:47:40to come back from that because the
1:47:42fundamental element of trust has been
1:47:44remove and then you can't communicate
1:47:46with the person because you don't know
1:47:47if they're telling you the truth and
1:47:48then you don't know if you're dealing
1:47:49with reality and if you're not dealing
1:47:51with reality with your partner it's like
1:47:53good luck fixing that it's like you're
1:47:55working on a ghost car while the real
1:47:58one is sitting in the shop with the
1:47:59motor out you know it's not going to get
1:48:01you anywhere so a lot of the issue is
1:48:04don't get in the trouble to begin with
1:48:07if you are in the trouble well then you
1:48:09try to straighten yourself out and see
1:48:11if you can fix it well if you can't your
1:48:14options aren't great and it depends on
1:48:17the particularities of the situation now
1:48:19know I have people that I counsel it's
1:48:21like leave that person and the rule
1:48:24is they're lying to
1:48:27you they aren't aiming up and you won't
1:48:31be able to tolerate being with them for
1:48:3310 years without becoming resentful
1:48:37alcoholic and
1:48:38homicidal so that's a bad outcome
1:48:41there's nothing you can do to avoid it
1:48:43so you might as well leave but you know
1:48:46you have to have that sorted out it has
1:48:48to be the truth cuz it's no fun it's no
1:48:49good to leave someone who's struggling
1:48:51in a in the Lurch you know and you think
1:48:53well I'm with this person they're not
1:48:55going anywhere you know maybe they have
1:48:56an alcohol problem and they're resentful
1:48:59it's like but I'm all they've
1:49:01got
1:49:03well they bloody well better want to to
1:49:05fix that because you're not going to be
1:49:07able to fix it all that'll happen is
1:49:09you'll end up in the same place now if
1:49:11they really want to fix it more than
1:49:14anything and they're willing to tell the
1:49:16truth about it and willing to interact
1:49:19with you then there's a ghost of a
1:49:21chance you might pull through it
1:49:24but it's very hard to fix someone and
1:49:27it's really hard to fix someone who does
1:49:29not want to be fixed and there's lots of
1:49:31people like that
1:49:33so I'm just going to say like a personal
1:49:35anot with my parents divorc was with
1:49:37three so um I know that a lot of people
1:49:41say like you're harming the kids if you
1:49:44uh get divorc and i' I've had to deal
1:49:46with a lot of like the tension between
1:49:48like choosing your parents and which one
1:49:51to agree with but um when everyone asks
1:49:53like do you like are you upset that they
1:49:54got divorc I'm like I I see how much
1:49:57they fight now and I can't imagine
1:49:59having that happen like 247 and being in
1:50:01that hous yeah well I mean this is why
1:50:04there isn't an answer to the question
1:50:06there's it depends on the
1:50:07particularities of the situation and so
1:50:10a lot there's there's lots of situations
1:50:12where a general answer doesn't suffice
1:50:15but I would say it is this is a tough
1:50:18one I can tell tell you what's happened
1:50:20since the divorce loss got got
1:50:25liberalized the first thing that happens
1:50:27is that all of you are going to be
1:50:28divorced at about the same rate as
1:50:30people would have 30 years ago because
1:50:32rich people still get married and they
1:50:35generally don't get divorced poor people
1:50:37do not get married and that's like 60%
1:50:40of the population and it's ramping up
1:50:42quick and there's no evidence whatsoever
1:50:45that that's anything but
1:50:47catastrophic so kids who are raised by
1:50:50single parents do not do as well now
1:50:53that doesn't mean there aren't some
1:50:54single parents who are doing a stellar
1:50:56job obviously there are and there's some
1:50:59married parents that do a terrible job
1:51:01that's not the
1:51:02issue the issue is the bulk of the
1:51:06evidence and the bulk of the evidence
1:51:07strongly suggests that children who are
1:51:10raised with two parents do better well
1:51:13du why well why it's impossible to raise
1:51:16children Jesus they're expensive they're
1:51:19troublesome they're smart and they're
1:51:21useless you know so and you've got them
1:51:24for 20 years it's like you're going to
1:51:25do that by yourself sure you are you
1:51:28know you're going to be working at a
1:51:29horrible job 40 hours a week or more
1:51:32like a retail job for example where they
1:51:34just treat you like a slave and then
1:51:37you're going to go home to your
1:51:38miserable kids exhausted it's like
1:51:40that's not fun and you know it's
1:51:42increasingly the norm for huge chunks of
1:51:44our population like elitist liberal
1:51:47types like all of you for example don't
1:51:50pay much attention to what happens to
1:51:51people who are actually poor but as far
1:51:54as I can tell it's been a bloody
1:51:55catastrophe for them you know there's an
1:51:57old saying when the upper class gets a
1:52:00cold the lower class gets pneumonia and
1:52:02you know the thing about that saying
1:52:05it's true it's like it's not a metaphor
1:52:07it's literally the case if an epidemic
1:52:09sweeps through a population the
1:52:11population dies from the poor people
1:52:13upward CU they're Sadam
1:52:15stressed so you know I would
1:52:18say with regards to marriage I've been
1:52:21married a long time it's just about it's
1:52:2426 years now you know and I've noticed a
1:52:27bunch of things about marriage one is
1:52:30two brains are better than one and so if
1:52:33you actually communicate with your
1:52:34partner cuz they're not like you it's
1:52:37like you have a corpus colossum between
1:52:39you you know and they'll tell you things
1:52:42that you don't understand you know like
1:52:45when you're being stupid you know in a
1:52:47typically feminine way theyere are
1:52:49typically masculine way or in whatever
1:52:51stupid way you manage to be stupid
1:52:52they'll point that out to you you know
1:52:54and that can be really helpful even
1:52:56though it's extremely annoying you know
1:52:58and they can help you make decisions and
1:53:00they're a good place to they're a good
1:53:01place to confess to you know and it's
1:53:03really helpful when you're trying to
1:53:04figure out how to disciplin children so
1:53:07that you're not a pathetic milk soop who
1:53:09lets them run all over you or some
1:53:10Tyrant who you know likes to beat them
1:53:12with a stick when they sneeze you know
1:53:14hopefully you kind of find some Pleasant
1:53:17Middle Ground in there and it's a lot
1:53:19easier to do that with two people then
1:53:20with one and then they can spell you off
1:53:23when you're exhausted particularly
1:53:25useful if you have small children cuz
1:53:27you will be exhausted when you have
1:53:28small children you know plus The
1:53:31Narrative of your life has
1:53:33continuity and that's nice you know and
1:53:36if your home is set up properly it's
1:53:37actually a pleasure to go to it you know
1:53:39it is a it is a buttress against the
1:53:42chaotic and and uncaring external World
1:53:45cuz the external World in many ways
1:53:47doesn't give a damn about you you know
1:53:49you know so if you go home and it's set
1:53:51up reasonably well it's like hey you've
1:53:54got somewhere to belong that's not so
1:53:57bad um just a another um another related
1:54:01situation that is personal relevant for
1:54:03me and might for other people too that
1:54:06um in in many situations like when
1:54:08something bad happens uh you know okay
1:54:11yeah I've got to do some kind of
1:54:12reparative thing right and uh so say
1:54:14it's like a health scare you go okay I
1:54:16got to work on my diet and then it's a
1:54:18divorce it's like all right well I got
1:54:19to work through
1:54:20why I didn't think I was headed for a
1:54:22divorce for the last 20 years but now it
1:54:23just happened and but but in some
1:54:26situations people know they got to
1:54:28repair but they don't want to get
1:54:29something that would actually be
1:54:30repairing so they go to people who are
1:54:32specialists in like other areas of of
1:54:35like personal psychological dealings and
1:54:37stuff like that anything but divorce
1:54:39like attention deficit work on your
1:54:41attention skills or like work on these
1:54:43uh or like um assertiveness training or
1:54:45something like that but like they're not
1:54:47they're like they're diligently avoid
1:54:49voiding the heart of the matter and what
1:54:52would you make of that and and if you
1:54:53were in a family with somebody like that
1:54:56is there something you could do well you
1:54:57know some situations are like Humpty
1:55:00Dumpty right there's no putting it back
1:55:02together yeah now but again in terms of
1:55:06avoidance of those situations it's like
1:55:09you think about that hierarchy again
1:55:11well divorce is a low resolution high
1:55:13impact solution cuz it just tears a
1:55:16chunk of that hierarchy out and throws
1:55:18it away that's a lot and it's costly
1:55:20it's going to hurt you okay so then you
1:55:23think well what what might you do
1:55:24instead of that and the real answer is
1:55:26solve the damn problems as they arise
1:55:29you know and that's hard and it requires
1:55:31drilling down it really requires
1:55:34drilling down so one of the things I
1:55:36want to build for example which I
1:55:38haven't built yet it's kind of like
1:55:39going to be like this future authoring
1:55:40thing that you guys do I want to build a
1:55:42problem solving Matrix for for
1:55:45couples cuz like because here's how not
1:55:49to get divorced from your wife figure
1:55:52out how to set the table properly now
1:55:56what does that mean it's really really
1:55:57complicated it's like who's going to
1:56:00cook when are they going to cook why are
1:56:03they cooking how should you respond to
1:56:05it who buys groceries what are the
1:56:07groceries going to be who's going to put
1:56:09them away how do you say thanks when
1:56:11someone does something for you in the
1:56:13domestic environment and what's happened
1:56:16and this is part of the death of God
1:56:18roughly speaking is that the roles are
1:56:21gone okay and what that means is you
1:56:24better be awake because it turns out
1:56:26that running a kitchen in a house is
1:56:29unbelievably complicated and difficult
1:56:31and so you have to negotiate how to do
1:56:34it and you're a terrible negotiator you
1:56:37don't know how to decompose the damn
1:56:38problem to the point where you could
1:56:40solve it you won't admit what you want
1:56:43you won't admit what you're like you
1:56:44won't pay any attention to what actually
1:56:46irritates you you know so you like to
1:56:48think that you're nice and easy to get
1:56:50along with but you're not and
1:56:52so you know I treat people who have
1:56:56post-traumatic disorder or symptoms of
1:56:58post-traumatic disorder and so let's say
1:57:02they got post-traumatic stress disorder
1:57:04because again because a relationship
1:57:06collapsed on them suddenly which is
1:57:08quite common you know they get betrayed
1:57:10or someone leaves them suddenly and then
1:57:12they don't know what to do because
1:57:15especially if they're conscientious
1:57:16because then they just tear themselves
1:57:17into pieces trying to figure out what
1:57:19they did wrong to bring about that event
1:57:23and the reason they're doing that is
1:57:24because they want to retool their
1:57:26perceptions and their actions so that
1:57:28the probability that they'll have the
1:57:29same experience again is minimized and
1:57:32their mind won't leave them alone till
1:57:34they do it and no wonder right because
1:57:36if you fall into a big pit and you get
1:57:39really
1:57:40hurt the first thing you should figure
1:57:42out is how to not fall into big pits
1:57:44anymore and your mind is set up exactly
1:57:47for that and so what you do with someone
1:57:50who's having problems like that so maybe
1:57:51they're waking up at the middle of the
1:57:52night obsessing about what went wrong is
1:57:55you walk them through it you do a
1:57:58situational analysis first because one
1:58:01of the oversimplifications that people
1:58:03make and this is especially true for
1:58:05conscientious people is if something bad
1:58:07happened to me I must have done
1:58:09something to deserve it now that's
1:58:12actually a pretty functional idea
1:58:14because it suggests that there are
1:58:16things about your behavior that you
1:58:18could change that would make the
1:58:20better but the problem is is that say if
1:58:23it's the collapse of a relationship and
1:58:24you've been with that person for 8 years
1:58:27or or
1:58:28longer well you did so many things with
1:58:31them that the idea that you did
1:58:33something wrong pretty much extends to
1:58:35every single thing you ever did with
1:58:36them and that's how are you going to fix
1:58:39that and so that's part of the trauma
1:58:42actually the the trauma is 80 million
1:58:45snakes all at the same time it's like
1:58:48well forget it you don't have time to go
1:58:52through all that material and so partly
1:58:54what you do is with people and this is
1:58:56what you should do with yourself too is
1:58:58you do a situational analysis it's like
1:59:00don't be assuming necessarily that the
1:59:02thing that happened to you only happened
1:59:04to you because of what you did or didn't
1:59:05do there's all sorts of factors at play
1:59:08so one of the things that sometimes I do
1:59:10with clients is if they were in a
1:59:12relationship and I can get some
1:59:14reasonable personality information about
1:59:16both of them I can point out where they
1:59:17were temperamentally
1:59:20incompatible you know like if you're a
1:59:22highly conscientious person and your
1:59:23partner is very very low in
1:59:25conscientiousness it's like well good
1:59:26luck to you to how the hell are you ever
1:59:29going to work that out because you want
1:59:31everything to be exactly where it's
1:59:32supposed to be and you're working all
1:59:34the time and your partner could care
1:59:36less whether things were where they
1:59:37supposed to be and they're not going to
1:59:39work and you can butt heads about that
1:59:42forever the probability that you're
1:59:44going to shift it you know except to
1:59:45some minor degree is very very low and
1:59:49so so sometimes you end up with someone
1:59:51with whom you get along very well on one
1:59:53temperamental Dimension and you're an
1:59:55absolute catastrophe on the other four
1:59:57and the probability that you're going to
1:59:59be able to mediate a huge temperamental
2:00:01difference is extremely low you wouldn't
2:00:03expect yourself to mediate a huge
2:00:05intellectual
2:00:07difference right you're going to make
2:00:08the other person smarter or maybe you
2:00:11smarter depending on who you're with
2:00:12it's like no probably not bit maybe so
2:00:17you do a situational analysis
2:00:20and so what you're trying to do is to
2:00:21extract out information from your past
2:00:24and your present that will enable you to
2:00:25conduct yourself properly into the
2:00:27future and so that's another example of
2:00:29the pragmatic element of of
2:00:32thought well then within the brain
2:00:35itself apart from the major subdivisions
2:00:38which which which we just described
2:00:40there are minor subdivisions and here's
2:00:42a bunch of them listed the cod8 nucleus
2:00:44the cerebral cortex the huge newest part
2:00:47of the brain that's about a square
2:00:49square meter if you unfold it it's all
2:00:51folded up and most of the processing
2:00:53occurs right on the surface that's
2:00:55that's the idea anyways the thalamus
2:00:58that's a place where a lot of the
2:00:59information in the brain appears to be
2:01:01integrated um the cerebellum helps you
2:01:03with balance and the sequencing of
2:01:05complex motor activities the hippocampus
2:01:07that's the one we talked about before
2:01:09one of the things that the hippocampus
2:01:11does seems to do is compare your model
2:01:13of the world as it's unfolding with the
2:01:15model that that you desire to be
2:01:18occurring and then keeps track of
2:01:20mismatches and if it detects a mismatch
2:01:22then it disinhibits other emotional and
2:01:25motivational centers and that's the
2:01:27beginning of your response to the
2:01:29unknown
2:01:31so one of them is the hypothalamus I'm
2:01:33going to concentrate on it for a bit
2:01:35it's a little tiny part of the brain
2:01:36that's pretty much at the top of the
2:01:38spinal cord see it's really
2:01:41small compared to the rest of the brain
2:01:43now it turns out that if imagine this is
2:01:45a cat brain for a minute and you take
2:01:47off the whole cat brain
2:01:50except for the hypothalamus which which
2:01:52people do you take off the whole cortex
2:01:54for example um and then the cat's still
2:01:58alive if you do it carefully but it
2:02:00doesn't have much of a brain and so you
2:02:02might think well that cat would just do
2:02:04nothing but it cat's actually pretty
2:02:06functional if it's reduced just to its
2:02:08hypothalamus and that's because the
2:02:10hypothalamus is an incredibly important
2:02:12part of the brain and it provides what I
2:02:14would say constitute the major frames
2:02:17the major psychological frames and so so
2:02:21like a a decorticate cat can still eat
2:02:24and drink and regulate its body
2:02:26temperature and engage in defensive
2:02:28aggression and if it's female it can
2:02:30still mate male can't because the male
2:02:33mating behavior is more complicated um
2:02:35and as long as you keep it in a bounded
2:02:37environment it can function reasonably
2:02:40well it's hyper curious
2:02:43though which is very weird because you
2:02:45wouldn't expect a cat with no brain to
2:02:46be curious about every anything but a
2:02:48cat with noin brain is curious about
2:02:49everything and that seems to be because
2:02:52part of the reason that you aren't
2:02:53curious about something anymore is
2:02:55because you've investigated it and
2:02:57you've built a representation of it
2:02:59that's functional and that functional
2:03:01representation then stands for the thing
2:03:03itself and then you can ignore it and so
2:03:05you learn to ignore things they're
2:03:07they're interesting to begin with and
2:03:08then you learn to ignore them and so one
2:03:11of the things that I think artists do if
2:03:13they're great artists is remind you that
2:03:15there's more to things that than you see
2:03:18now that you've learned to ignore them
2:03:20so you get a kind of a hallucinogenic
2:03:22painting of flowers like van go might
2:03:24produce like his famous irises which I
2:03:27think sold for like $220 million or
2:03:29something outrageous it's like what van
2:03:31go is trying to show you is what those
2:03:33flowers looked like before you thought
2:03:35you could see them cuz now you flower
2:03:37and you walked by you know you don't see
2:03:39it at all because you're off to get a
2:03:41peanut butter sandwich or something you
2:03:43don't have time to glory in the wonder
2:03:45of the world you know you you've got
2:03:46something practical to do so so all
2:03:49right so we're going to zoom in on the
2:03:51hypothalamus
2:03:53here and what you see of course when you
2:03:57zoom in on the hypothalamus is that it's
2:03:59not a thing it's a whole bunch of things
2:04:01and then it's one of those horrible
2:04:03whole bunches of things that are made
2:04:05out of even more bunches of things and
2:04:07they're made out of more bunches of
2:04:08things and what's really interesting
2:04:10about going down the body from an
2:04:13analytic perspective is it doesn't seem
2:04:14to get less complex as you go further
2:04:16down you know like some of the
2:04:20I should actually show you
2:04:22that I haven't showed you that little
2:04:24video of uh DNA fixing itself e oh I
2:04:27better show you that it's so cool it's
2:04:30ridiculously cool so you definitely need
2:04:32to see it so like that's just so
2:04:34ridiculously mind-blowing that it's
2:04:37almost
2:04:38unbearable I mean to think about that as
2:04:40Clockwork even is is a pretty strange
2:04:42idea because all those little things
2:04:45walk over obstacles it's like how the
2:04:47hell does that happen they're just m
2:04:48molecules so it's so cool cuz when you
2:04:51go down you'd think simple but you know
2:04:55and you know he said at the beginning
2:04:56when they were taking that when the
2:04:57little machines were taking that DNA
2:04:59apart that he didn't show the error
2:05:01correcting you know they there's other
2:05:02little machines that go along and see if
2:05:04everything's okay and if it isn't they
2:05:05cut it out and put a right piece in it's
2:05:08like yeah things we don't understand
2:05:11there's no shortage of them that's for
2:05:13sure okay
2:05:15so what I'm doing in some sense is
2:05:17walking you through a
2:05:19psychophysiological or representation of
2:05:22PJ's developmental process I would say
2:05:25um so I wanted to zero in on the
2:05:28hypothalamus because it seems to me the
2:05:30thing that sets the most basic frames
2:05:33and so we'll go ahead with
2:05:38that so you see that it's made up of all
2:05:40these little
2:05:42parts and so it's called the
2:05:44hypothalamus
2:05:45more for convenience than because it's a
2:05:48homogen enous set of structures because
2:05:49it's not a homogeneous set of structures
2:05:51and this is something to consider very
2:05:53carefully when you're thinking about the
2:05:54terminology that psychologists use or
2:05:57that you might use to describe your own
2:05:58behavior because you know you can
2:06:00roughly there is a psychology of
2:06:03motivation and there's a psychology of
2:06:05emotion and you might think well emotion
2:06:06and motivation are categorically
2:06:08different entities but they're
2:06:10not in fact there's no such thing as a
2:06:13uniform set of motivations and there's
2:06:15no such thing as a uniform set of
2:06:16emotions and the distinction between a
2:06:19motivation and an emotion is unclear to
2:06:22say the least and that's partly because
2:06:24the physiological substructures that
2:06:27subsume what we call motivations and
2:06:29what we call emotions and it's not like
2:06:31there's a motivation Center that's
2:06:33that's homogeneous the closest is the
2:06:35hypothalamus but it's made of structures
2:06:37that are qualitatively different and
2:06:39then the
2:06:40emotions because I I have to use that
2:06:42descriptive terminology because we have
2:06:44to communicate it about it somehow
2:06:46there's all sorts of different
2:06:47structures in the brain that contribute
2:06:49to emotional expression and they're not
2:06:51even in the same place much
2:06:53less much less composed of identical
2:06:56structure or function so you know we
2:06:58have these short hands that we use to
2:07:00divide up the world but they're they're
2:07:03awkward and untenable as the level of
2:07:05resolution increases but anyways I'm
2:07:08still going to go with motivation and
2:07:09emotion because it's a useful
2:07:11simplification but you can see with the
2:07:13hypothalamus that there's all these you
2:07:15know complicated little subsystems in
2:07:17there and then I showed you that video
2:07:18to show you just how complicated the
2:07:20subsystems are all the way down to the
2:07:23really to the molecular level how those
2:07:25little machines manage what they do is
2:07:27completely Beyond me you know to call it
2:07:29Clockwork when those little things that
2:07:31walk can walk over obstacles it's like
2:07:34clockwork does one thing you know only
2:07:37click click click click that's all it
2:07:38does no exceptions this thing walks over
2:07:41obstacles to get where it's going it's
2:07:43like who knows what's going on down
2:07:46there but it works well enough so here
2:07:49we are weirdly
2:08:16enough

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