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Jordan Peterson on Gender, Patriarchy and the Slide Towards Tyranny — Transcript

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0:05hello I'm Anne McElroy and welcome to
0:09the intelligence squared podcast teamed
0:11up this week with economist radio you
0:14can find out about intelligence squared
0:16podcasts and live events at intelligence
0:19squared comm my guest is Jordan Peterson
0:22a clinical psychologist and professor at
0:25the University of Toronto
0:26he's just written 12 rules for life an
0:29antidote to chaos rule number one is
0:32stand up straight with your shoulders
0:34back rule number four compare yourself
0:37to who you were yesterday not to who
0:40someone else is today rule number six
0:43set your house in perfect order before
0:46you criticize the world I've already
0:48felt that one and rule number twelve pet
0:50a cat when you encounter one on the
0:52street so far so modern folksy but
0:56Peterson is best known these days as a
0:58scourge of much modern liberal thinking
1:00a stance that's brought him at last
1:02following of fans and detractors it all
1:06began when beyond the lecture hall
1:07Peterson took to answering questions in
1:10an online forum
1:11he says his procrastination induced
1:13musings hit a nerve they certainly did
1:16he now has hundreds of thousands of
1:18followers on social media his YouTube
1:21channel has over a million subscribers
1:23with videos such as identity politics
1:26and the Marxist lie of white privilege
1:28and the psychological significance of
1:32the biblical stories he wants to bring
1:34order to a world of chaos
1:36Jordan Peterson welcome thanks very much
1:39for the invitation why do you think that
1:42your book twelve rules for life on the
1:44bestseller lists already and the online
1:46videos with it have struck such a chord
1:50what's at site-geist because I'm firmly
1:53on the side of my viewers and readers
1:56and I'm doing everything I can to help
1:59them understand how to live responsible
2:04and meaningful lives and that there's a
2:06and that there's a conjunction between
2:08those two issues of responsibility and
2:11meaning
2:12that hasn't been addressed properly in
2:13our culture for a long time and when you
2:16say your viewers and readers are you
2:17thinking here of a specific group of
2:19people are these targeted on a
2:21particular group no no I wouldn't say so
2:24I have more male viewers online but on
2:29YouTube the standard viewer is male so
2:32it isn't obvious that that's a
2:34consequence of my philosophy let's say
2:36more than an artifact of the technology
2:39I think that male activity is viewed
2:44with far more skepticism than is
2:46warranted at the moment and that's
2:48certainly a problem and that's part of
2:50the viewpoint that assumes that what our
2:52culture is is best construed as
2:55oppressive patriarchy of some sort and
2:57that any activity within that is to be
3:00regard regarded as a manifestation of
3:02that proclivity towards tyranny which is
3:04an absolutely appalling viewpoint in my
3:07estimation and I make that make that
3:10what would you call it opinion quite
3:12clear but for me most of this is a
3:15matter of psychological endeavor not
3:17political endeavor we might come back on
3:19the proclivity towards tyranny later on
3:22and how that relates to how you see this
3:25argument but just on your interest in
3:28young men particularly in in the young
3:31male in Western societies you often talk
3:34beyond that but mainly I think that's
3:35your focus wouldn't be fair to say that
3:37your focus is on how men feel in
3:40societies and where no their honor I
3:43don't think that that is my focus I
3:45think that my focus is the focus that
3:47you'd expect from a clinical
3:48psychologist and an educator which is to
3:50help individuals regardless of their
3:53group identity live better lives I think
3:56the fact that what I mean being doing is
3:59being construed in that manner is a
4:01consequence of the absolutely
4:03overwhelming influence of identity
4:06politics and and post-modernism for that
4:08matter on our political and
4:10philosophical discourse what I'm doing
4:12is constantly being viewed as a
4:14manifestation of identity politics and
4:17so people talk about my particular
4:19attraction for young white men it's like
4:22sorry not true
4:23there's
4:24there's virtually no evidence for that
4:26the audience's that come to see me are
4:28and I hate to even categorize them in
4:30this manner because it's part of playing
4:31the same game but very diverse
4:33ethnically and and and with regards to
4:37gender as well so the problem is is that
4:39the way that our discourse is framed
4:41right now it's impossible to avoid being
4:44shunted into an identity politics box
4:46and I think that that's I think that
4:49there's nothing about that that isn't
4:50reprehensible you said I mean I really
4:53interested in point in exploring what
4:55you know where you're starting for but
4:56you sound isn't quite angry what do you
4:59feel like well I'm I'm I'm appalled at
5:03the role the universities have played in
5:05this to to to form to to to have
5:08influenced the culture so that this is
5:10the manner in which our discourse is
5:13conducted that the primary issue is
5:15which group is what you're saying
5:18targeted towards like my group why what
5:20I'm saying isn't targeted towards groups
5:22in fact it's precisely construed as an
5:25antidote to the idea that your message
5:28should be targeted as group at groups
5:29I'm interested in the individual and and
5:32it also makes sense given my background
5:33first of all you met professors so I
5:35teach individual students and second of
5:38all and perhaps not in that order I'm a
5:40clinical psychologist not a sociologist
5:42and not a politician
5:43none of that concentrating on the
5:45development of the individual and when I
5:47go do my talks I have thousands of
5:49people coming to my talks and I meet I
5:51meet thousands of people as a
5:53consequence of doing that personally and
5:55none of them talk to me about politics
5:56all of them say the same thing they've
5:59been watching my lectures online or
6:01they've been reading my book they were
6:02in a dark place in their life they've
6:05been trying to adopt personal
6:06responsibility and a vision for the
6:08future and as a constant and and to tell
6:10the truth to the degree that they can to
6:12take responsibility for their own
6:13behavior and to improve their lives of
6:16their families and their communities and
6:17because of doing that things are much
6:19better for them and that's the story I'm
6:22interested that you chose a self-help
6:24kind of trip here with the book the
6:27rules for for life takes us back to
6:29Samuel smiles and Victorians sort of
6:31self-help manuals in some senses in a
6:34tradition but you're someone who doesn't
6:37like to be told what
6:38and you think you know a lot of
6:39modernity is kind of telling a bit
6:41finger-wagging or telling people what to
6:43do so why would you accept your rules
6:45would you accept Jordan Peterson's rules
6:48if you weren't Jordan Peterson oh good
6:49good point yeah well you know you you
6:52might also ask in some sense how I can
6:54get away with that because you know for
6:58example last year I did a series of
6:59lectures on the Bible on on on the on
7:01Genesis and it's very easy to make that
7:04sort of thing into a finger-wagging
7:06morality but I'm not not including
7:10myself in the list of people who need
7:12improvement I'm not talking from a
7:15pinnacle downwards to my audience you
7:17know I'm I'm stating a fairly blunt fact
7:20which is that we have plenty of we have
7:23plenty of tragedy and malevolence to
7:25contend with in the confines of our life
7:26and we need to figure out how to deal
7:29with that properly without becoming
7:30bitter and cruel and resentful and these
7:33rules are guidelines to help people
7:35avoid those pitfalls rather than finger
7:38wagging moral injunctions designed to
7:40make them feel guilty and so that's why
7:42the elections are attractive because
7:44that that kind of top-down morality is
7:47actually absent from them and one view
7:49of this large popularity that you are
7:52enjoying it at the moment the moment if
7:55you like that you wouldn't be the moment
7:57is that you captured a kind of space
7:58between what many people think and what
8:01they're being told to think does that
8:04ring a bell with you and do you think
8:06that's a fair description is that
8:08something your graph aiming to do well I
8:10think that people are have a sense that
8:14again that the manner in which our
8:16public discourse is being conducted has
8:18as tremendous danger and the danger is
8:21essentially the elevation of the
8:23collective over the individual and that
8:26that poses a danger both on the left and
8:28on the right and I think that by
8:30appealing to the notion of individual
8:33sovereignty which I would say is the
8:34primary would you say it's the meta
8:37message behind all of the things that
8:39I've been writing about that people find
8:41that to be a great relief even though
8:44what I'm asking them to do is to bear
8:45more responsibility for what they do
8:48then they might typically be inclined to
8:51and so but it's all it's you see look I
8:55I'm facing some of the issues that that
8:58people confront in their lives very
9:00squarely I believe the the fundamental
9:03religious truth of the idea that life is
9:07suffering it's suffering because we're
9:10mortal and fragile and because we're
9:12also subject to malevolence at our own
9:14hands into that at at the hands of
9:16others it's a it's a constant
9:18existential problem and that can make
9:21you bitter and can make you hopeless and
9:23nihilistic and depressed and anxious and
9:24pro and likely to abuse substances
9:28various sorts as a medication or an
9:30escape
9:31it can augur you in in in a very large
9:34number of ways and I'm suggesting to
9:36people that there is a way out of that
9:37and the way out is to confront that
9:40forthrightly and to adopt responsibility
9:43in your own life and to try to make the
9:44world a better place and that it's
9:45necessary to do that and that if you
9:47don't do that that things go badly and
9:50it's a relief to people to hear that
9:52because they know it they already know
9:54it so get a grip on yourself well it's
9:57it's more find something in your life
9:59that's so worthwhile doing that the fact
10:02that you're going to suffer is
10:04justifiable but if that something a
10:07value were for instance or someone to
10:10decide that they are a radical feminists
10:13or a radical trans campaigner that would
10:16be something of great value in their
10:17lives but these are not positions that I
10:19think you think have been if you do not
10:21have great value in their life because
10:23what they're doing is abdicating their
10:25personal responsibility to live by their
10:27own truth let's say to adherence to an
10:31ideology and I'm not a fan of ideologies
10:34I think they're unbelievably dangerous
10:36and I don't really care whether they're
10:37on the left or the right so to be a
10:39feminist or a trans activist or to adopt
10:42that that group fostered view of the
10:44world
10:44I think is generally an a mistake and I
10:47don't think it does people any good not
10:49usually and it also allows them to adopt
10:52and and this is something else that's
10:53very very gone very wrong with our
10:55political discourse is that it allows
10:57people to adopt and unearned an unearned
11:01sense of moral superiority and also of
11:03omniscient knowledge because in India
11:05all
11:05she offers you that and there's just
11:07nothing in that that that's helpful
11:09so what you have right mints but then
11:11what you have isn't an ideology or no
11:14it's not an easy ology and there isn't a
11:17strong collection of ideas in a sense
11:19always an ideal no it's not it's not and
11:22it's a mistake to think that way because
11:23all that means is that the way that you
11:25construe the world is a battleground
11:27between different ideologies and if an
11:28ideologies is only that which serves a
11:31power elite let's say which is part of
11:33the postmodern Neel Marxist construal
11:35then all it ever is is a battle of
11:37opinions and there's nothing underneath
11:39that and it's all power and and that's
11:41just not an appropriate way of looking
11:43at the world first of all there's lots
11:44of forces at play that aren't mere power
11:47competence is one of them assuming that
11:49there are some things that are
11:50worthwhile doing and then with regards
11:53to ideology I wrote a book about that
11:55the first book I wrote is called maps of
11:57meaning and it's a it's a description of
11:59the relationship between archetypal or
12:01mythological thinking proper religious
12:04thinking I would say and the parasitical
12:06structures that emerge from that which
12:08are basically ideologies and they can be
12:10technically differentiated what do you
12:12make of liberalism
12:13I would consider myself a classic
12:15liberal you would consider yourself oh
12:17yes yes although Jesus also has beliefs
12:21attached right it comes out of a
12:24tradition of evolution of beliefs but
12:28there also there is also a radical
12:30liberalism which feeds into feminism
12:33which believes that progress is a better
12:37thing than the lack of progress I really
12:39the economist is founded on those basics
12:41and that people can argue about what
12:43they want to to take or leave but do you
12:45include then liberalism as one of the
12:47isms that you would say is in crisis at
12:49the moment always got itself into well
12:51well it depends to some degree as you
12:54pointed out on how you define liberalism
12:56but one of the things that I like about
12:57the classic liberal take on the world
13:00which which I and to which I think we
13:02owe
13:03Britain a great debt of gratitude for
13:05developing perhaps more particularly
13:07than any other country is that the
13:10individuals is to be regarded as the
13:13sovereign entity in the political
13:15understanding but that's not really a
13:18political claim
13:19it's a claim that underlies politics
13:21it's actually a theological claim it's
13:23derived from the judeo-christian
13:25tradition and because India
13:27judeo-christian tradition the suffering
13:29individual is the sovereign entity and
13:31we established a political system based
13:33on that metaphysical axiom and so I
13:38would say that to the degree that
13:39liberalism acts out the idea of the
13:43sovereignty of the individual it's not
13:44an ism it's it's not a political stance
13:46it's far deeper than that what it's
13:49predicated on and the the idea of the
13:51sovereignty of the individual is an idea
13:53that emerged with great difficulty over
13:55tens of thousands of years or longer
13:58than that has an immense developmental
13:59history that radically predates let's
14:02say the Enlightenment or or any
14:03articulated political beliefs it's far
14:05deeper notion than anything that can be
14:07encapsulated politically but if we look
14:09at the great some of the great classic
14:10liberals of the 19th century and we look
14:12back to male for example you have
14:15individual liberty very strongly in
14:17there from Locke onwards a sort of the
14:20sense of the sovereignty and no one from
14:23the monarch down has it has the right to
14:25unfair sovereignty another man or a
14:28woman but you also have a strongly kind
14:31of progressive sense that that develops
14:33as liberalism develops and takes you
14:35towards women's franchise towards
14:38actually in Mills case a fairly
14:40out-there feminism if Jess mill was
14:42sitting here instead of me would you be
14:44seeing eye to eye on whether that was a
14:46good idea well again I think it depends
14:49on what what you mean by feminism I mean
14:51the idea that it would be a good thing
14:53for the world to arrange itself so that
14:56the talents of women were as available
14:59to use by the collective let's say by
15:01the group or by society as the talents
15:03of men then obviously that's all for the
15:05good I don't have any problem with that
15:07whatsoever because talents in short
15:11supply and and it's a foolish society
15:13that wastes that no matter where it
15:14manifests itself racial divisions or
15:16ethnic divisions or any of that equality
15:19of opportunity I can't see how you can
15:21be a sensible person and nor do women
15:25have opportunity so we do women have
15:27equality of opportunity than broadly
15:29across Western societies
15:31compared to what
15:33look compared to not having equality
15:34vote compared to a hundred years ago yes
15:37compared to fifty years ago yes compared
15:39to most places in the world throughout
15:40history yes compared to a hypothetical
15:42ideal no but I'm very very good idea or
15:48a bad idea well it depends on how you
15:50define equality if you define it as
15:52equality of outcome then it's a
15:53catastrophic ideal see this is something
15:56to you know one of the things I've been
15:57struggling with recently is the idea of
16:01boundaries let's say we know absolutely
16:03and and this is relative to you relevant
16:06to your question zone progressivism we
16:09know that the Left can go too far and we
16:11know that the right can go too far I
16:13mean I would say that's the abject
16:15lesson of the 20th century both can go
16:17too far and we kind of know when the
16:19right goes too far we probably think the
16:22right goes too far if you had to boil it
16:24down to one thing when people start
16:25making claims of racial or ethnic
16:28superiority that seems to be the marker
16:30but we don't know when the Left goes too
16:32far and the left to be frank about it
16:34isn't very careful about differentiating
16:36itself into those who are pursuing a
16:39reasonable progressive agenda and those
16:41who have seriously gone too far and I
16:43would say that when people push an
16:44equality of outcome agenda they've gone
16:46too far even though it's not as
16:48blatantly horrifying let's say as claims
16:51of ethnic or racial superiority the
16:53consequences of playing that idea out in
16:55the world are seriously not good but
16:58surely they are you know they're two
16:59kind of door stops it's the far ends of
17:02the arguments I mean very few people I
17:06think on the left and there would be
17:08some who would advocate for absolute
17:11equality of outcome and everything it
17:13would take to achieve not so clear
17:14dissimilar so there may be lots of
17:17things that are wrong both on the left
17:18and on the right that don't involve the
17:21right being overtly racist and the left
17:24wanting absolute equality of outcome
17:26it's a space surely in the middle that
17:29matters and that's why I suppose people
17:31feel that sometimes your argument is
17:33also sort of its driving towards picking
17:36the fight rather than liberalism would I
17:38suppose encourage you to take the best
17:41and we can have the argument about
17:43what's the best and what's the worst of
17:46every
17:46it's in between no I think that the the
17:49left poses a far greater danger than
17:50your analysis suggests I certainly see
17:53this in the universities and the the
17:56drum is being beat very very hard
17:58perhaps not so much here but in North
18:00America for equality of opportunity or
18:02equality of outcome under the rubric of
18:04equity and equity is essentially a
18:06doctrine that Foster's the notion that
18:08equality of outcome is not only
18:10desirable but should be pursued as an an
18:13object or as an explicit aspect of
18:15public policy the idea being that if the
18:19there aren't there is an equivalent
18:21representation of all possible groups at
18:23all possible levels of all possible
18:25hierarchies that that indicates a
18:27tyrannical prejudice that needs to be
18:30rooted out and that's having an
18:31absolutely pernicious effect on on
18:33institutions especially educational
18:35institutions in North America that's not
18:37a and it's an increasingly widespread
18:39view and I think it poses far more
18:41danger than is anything is it possible
18:43that views become more attractive when
18:47something is dissatisfied and when
18:49aspirations have not been met which are
18:53reasonable aspirations to have and you
18:55can then say that the answers are wrong
18:56or that they oh but say if this is such
19:00a popular view to cite your example on
19:02campuses in North America it may be that
19:05there's something out there that
19:06existing society has not satisfied what
19:09hasn't satisfied the ever-present human
19:11tendency towards envy and resentment
19:13that's for sure that's always driving it
19:16not at all but it's a tremendous amount
19:18of what's driving it and a lack of
19:19absolute lack of gratitude for what
19:21we've managed to accomplish and what we
19:23have in front of us I mean unfairness
19:26does that figure well unfairness is a
19:28very ill-defined term I mean it's not so
19:30obvious either it's not so obvious
19:32what's fair so for example you know I
19:35got embroiled in a dispute the last time
19:37I was in you in the UK about the issue
19:39of the gender pay gap and you know from
19:42from a social science perspective the
19:44idea of the gender pay gap is it's it's
19:47it's so poorly formulated that it's
19:49almost staggering to me that people can
19:51even conceptualize it in this manner
19:53it's not a univariate problem it's a
19:56multivariate problem men and women don't
19:59make breakage
20:00and then we can get you know not only
20:01could we we have to and and we can't
20:04assume that just because in all
20:06situations women don't make as much
20:07money as men although there are some
20:09situations in which the reverse is true
20:11by the way that the reason for that is
20:13prejudice and depression there's many
20:16reasons for it one reason so there's a
20:18book by wit by Warren Farrell for
20:20example called why men make more and he
20:22outlines like 42 reasons why men make
20:24more money than women one of them is
20:26that men are much more likely to take
20:27dangerous occupations not at 42 and then
20:32some of the reasons but perhaps just
20:34start by talking a bit more about gender
20:36with you that unsure on fraught
20:38territory always seems to go up do you
20:43agree with people who hold that broadly
20:45gender is a social consequences for STUV
20:52all that's an axiomatic pronouncement
20:54rather than a consequence of the
20:55analysis of the empirical data and I
20:58mean what do you mean a social construct
21:00genitalia aren't a social construct
21:02differences in height aren't a social
21:04construct difference is what we did you
21:05said Italia is to an extent constructed
21:09it well because there's environmental
21:11and and cultural effects on anything
21:14that's complex and that's certainly the
21:15case and differentiating what those are
21:18is a very difficult thing to do but the
21:20psychometric work on that has already
21:21been done and done well and when I what
21:24do you mean that a second metric look I
21:26mean psychologists in particular have
21:28spent 40 years sorting out an
21:31empirically derived model of personality
21:35that's the Big Five model which is well
21:37accepted among personality psychologists
21:39in the mainstream most of who lean left
21:41by the way by an overwhelming majority
21:43so there's no right that might be five
21:47yeah but it's but one of the things
21:49that's interesting about the taxonomy is
21:51that it was a theoretically derived it's
21:53purely a consequence of statistical
21:55analysis and so I'm not sure where
21:58that's taking us so well how far gender
22:00is socially constructed okay so for the
22:04first thing to do is to figure out what
22:06the parameters are when you talk about
22:08something like gender so the parameters
22:10are say parameters of temperament
22:11because you said well we're not going to
22:13talk about by all
22:14we're going to talk about what's derived
22:15from that so we might say temperament
22:17okay so we know the temporary mental
22:18dimensions we know that they differ
22:20between men and women and they differ
22:22cross-culturally but more importantly
22:24this is the crucial distinction well we
22:26don't know because I mean I'm just
22:27looking at a piece of recent research on
22:30the brain which concludes the Ranaut's
22:32two types of brain in there are there
22:34are others who did the research it's the
22:37new scientists construe there's no such
22:38thing as the male or female brain just
22:40so you know what you yeah baby no nobody
22:42who has any sense would ever claim if
22:44there was a male and female brain ok
22:45these differences aren't absolute what
22:47do you want so should we just take that
22:50as a question you want to engage that
22:51question on two types of brain and then
22:52we can be a bit clearer well there are
22:53nice types of brain and men and women
22:55are more the same by personality than
22:57they are different by a substantial
22:58margin there's more similarities than
23:00differences if there's more similarity
23:02than difference but that doesn't mean
23:04the differences are irrelevant so let me
23:05give you an example so if you pick two
23:08people at random out of the population
23:10and had to guess which who is more
23:11aggressive and you guessed the man you'd
23:14be right 60 percent of the time that's
23:16about the magnitude of the difference
23:18between men and women that's six sixty
23:19forties and that's exactly right less
23:22but but but and this is where things get
23:25more sophisticated all right so then
23:27imagine that you had to pick the one in
23:30a hundred most aggressive person and put
23:33them in jail which is what we do they're
23:36all men so even though at the midpoint
23:39the difference between men and women
23:41isn't that extreme at the extremes the
23:43difference is extraordinary and most of
23:46the activity are much of the activity in
23:47complex situations happens at the
23:49extremes so men are more interested in
23:52things than women are and women are more
23:55interested in people than men are on
23:57average and those differences are
23:59largest in Scandinavia by the way so
24:01there's no evidence that there
24:02socio-culturally constructed and one of
24:04the consequences of that is is that if
24:06you leave men and women to make free
24:08choices well let's put aside that
24:09Scandinavia is no choice it's not just
24:11one country that has lots of different
24:13cultural political differences sure but
24:15the point is is that and this is the
24:17fundamental point is that the more
24:19egalitarian the country the bigger the
24:22differences between men and women the
24:24bigger I have no idea how one could
24:26possibly you rain
24:28you rank order countries by their
24:29socio-cultural policies from egalitarian
24:33to non egalitarian and then you look at
24:34the magnitude at the differences in
24:36temperament in men and women in those
24:37countries and you do those on your
24:39definition of temperament but this but
24:42there isn't a definition of temperament
24:43that exists that valid outside of the
24:45psychometric community locked into a
24:49particular definition within what you
24:51call the psychometric community and
24:53other people may simply say look I
24:55experienced the world very differently
24:56and I have evidence from my dealings
24:59whether I'm a man whether I'm a woman
25:00whether I'm looking at how we get along
25:03together and what we do to improve
25:04matters that doesn't conform to that you
25:07know the question is then what is the
25:08evidence the fact that someone has a
25:10lien about it isn't relevant you have a
25:12relevant issue is whether what the
25:13evidence suggests unless you're willing
25:15to throw out the scientific enterprise
25:16which I wouldn't recommend not I'm
25:18certainly not doing that but I do think
25:20there to pin it to a narrow definition
25:22of psychometric test not merit it's five
25:25dimensional it's not narrow the whole
25:27world only has four dimensions five
25:29dimensional model is actually
25:30extraordinarily sophisticated it's got
25:32four dimensions and then weave into five
25:33that's magic
25:35well you have five dimensions there's
25:37many multi-dimensional spaces but
25:39reality itself has four dimensions and
25:41we there's plenty of complexities come
25:43back to you I mean you're a bit you know
25:44absolutely come back to evidence but
25:47also to what you make of the evidence
25:48because Trading's well all I make of the
25:51evidence is moral reasons for gender
25:53difference so what do we then do with
25:55this let's say that we decide that there
25:58are differences and we can argue whether
25:59that's about the average I mean who is
26:01the average woman am i the average woman
26:02mm-hmm
26:03in some ways probably in other ways okay
26:06good good to know
26:08so what do we do with it so it takes us
26:11into this an argument about what
26:12progress should look like and the gender
26:15pay gap was a good example of that as
26:17you say lots of different ways of
26:19describing it lots of different
26:20approaches to dealing with it the
26:22challenge to you would still be I think
26:25do you think that situation that we have
26:28is broadly fair in workplaces and that
26:31women are self-selecting out of progress
26:35up the paid chain rather than being to
26:38an extent under
26:41pressure of child-rearing that is not
26:42probably accounted for or that they're
26:45not properly helped with is it really
26:46all about their decision or might
26:48structures not play a role here when
26:50doesn't hold structures defeating this
26:52right no no no what you have to be
26:54completely mad is to reduce the whole
26:56thing to gender and to assume that it's
26:58a consequence of oppression there's
27:00multiple factors at play and prejudice
27:02is one of them the question is to what
27:04degree prejudice or an arbitrary
27:06categorization let's say and and the
27:09lack of provision of opportunities for
27:11women is contributing to the pay gap and
27:13what to what degree other factors are
27:15contributing so there's other factors
27:17like I said already men are much more
27:19likely to do dangerous jobs they're also
27:21more likely to do jobs that scale so for
27:24example because women are more
27:25interested in people on average than men
27:27are they tend to work in people oriented
27:30enterprises and those are hard to scale
27:32and because you can't scale them it's
27:33harder to multiply the income men are
27:36likely more likely to move than women
27:38are men are more likely to take on trade
27:40positions they're more likely to work
27:42with heavy machinery they're more likely
27:43to work outside all of these things add
27:46today if you catch that up to them if
27:49you if you took out working with heavy
27:50machinery which some women do but more
27:52we can say right more men will and will
27:54elect to do that there's quite a lot of
27:56things in there where there being not
27:58you know we're all nudge throughout our
27:59life to to certain choices we don't have
28:02to accept the nudge but then would you
28:04accept that women have lacked
28:07opportunities that they've liked that
28:09nudge has not operated in the same way
28:11so but you to say oh well they end over
28:13what time spa you can choose cheesy
28:15tights and say 100 years if you like
28:16well the time span the point is are
28:19women in a sense already being going
28:23through it all going through a number of
28:24gates in in in life and wider than
28:27others complicated I mean I think men
28:29men were directed down narrow pathways
28:32in ways that women weren't so for
28:35example they were much more likely to be
28:36conscripted into Wars for example which
28:39actually happens to be a non-trivial
28:40phenomena because it resulted in the
28:43deaths and ended and and the demolition
28:45of many men and so both both sexes are
28:49subject to the arbitrary strictures of
28:52culture and perhaps you
28:54argue that women had the worst time of
28:56it although it's not that easy an
28:58argument to make I would say that the
29:02extra pressures of child-rearing and the
29:04inevitability of pregnancy played a very
29:07large role in that and we didn't deal
29:10with that effectively till 1960 and so
29:12one of the things that I really don't
29:14like about the men women were oppressed
29:16by men throughout history narrative is
29:18the fact that both men and women were
29:20terribly oppressed by nature throughout
29:22history and that's not being factored
29:24into the equation and I think that what
29:26men and women did for most of history
29:27the decent ones anyways was team up and
29:30partner up and try to make life the
29:32least amount of miserable for both and
29:34yet we read this narrative backwards and
29:36we say well the reason that men and
29:37women weren't operating equally in the
29:40socio-cultural landscape was because men
29:42were oppressing them it's like sorry no
29:44that accounts for a tiny fraction of it
29:47or some proportion of it but it had much
29:49more to do with the fact that everyone
29:50was poor and miserable and that women
29:52were locked into a reproductive cycle
29:55from which they had no practical escape
29:57I mean we didn't fix that till the 60s
29:59what might irritate some working women
30:02indeed some women whether they work or
30:03not is you you can either sort of look
30:06at something like the gender pay gap and
30:07sort of pick apart how difficult it is
30:09or you could say well that's let's try
30:11to to fix this and let's have an
30:14intelligent argument about how we best
30:16fix this thing and the argument that
30:18women are self-selecting out of the
30:20workplace actually becomes you know
30:24becomes a bit of a roadblock but women
30:26do self-select out of the workplace all
30:27the time well if you look at the legal
30:30profession that's that's absolutely
30:31crystal clear women are over represented
30:33at the lower ends of the legal
30:35profession but they stop they stop
30:37operating at the high ends in their 30s
30:39and it happens in all sorts of
30:40professions and there's good reason for
30:42it
30:42I mean well because women in their late
30:4620s tend to decide that they don't want
30:48to work 80 hours a week they would
30:50rather have a family and devote some
30:52time to that which is a perfectly
30:54reasonable thing to do another possibly
30:56reasonable thing to do is for the
30:58child-rearing roles of men and women to
31:00come more into balance then allowing
31:02with some trade-offs life being
31:04imperfect allowing women to come back
31:06earlier
31:09assuming that you put you know you put
31:11it on the window no no not at all that's
31:13not a fair characterization in the least
31:16your argument is predicated on the idea
31:18that the advantage to women isn't coming
31:21back to the workplace but many women
31:23decide especially once they have
31:25children that having their children and
31:26spending time with them is actually more
31:28valuable than going back to the
31:29workplace and that's a reasonable thing
31:31to decide in fact you might think it's
31:34the intelligent do then come back into
31:36the workforce and they pay that's
31:40something that you had mentioned earlier
31:42and the fact that women pay a
31:44disproportionate price with regards to
31:46long term career earnings if they become
31:49mothers that's a very narrowly focused
31:51problem and it's a problem that might
31:53need to be addressed but that's not the
31:54same as the gender pay gap it's a much
31:57more defined problem yes and part of the
31:59problem is how do we best can we get you
32:03to carry a benefit for that part of the
32:05feminist tree saving not if it's part of
32:07the feminist crusade no because that
32:10would mean I'd have to carry a banner
32:11for what I regard as a rather
32:12reprehensible ideology but I do
32:15feminism is a reference now well what
32:18percentage of British women regard
32:20themselves as feminists no 7% question I
32:25would guess well know whether did the
32:27the reasonable the reasonable
32:28measurements of it estimate there is
32:30something like that
32:30it's a very small percentage yes really
32:32it's a it's a very small minority even
32:35if it's not 7% and part of the reason
32:37for the - make it inherently wrong I
32:38mean I'm not sure it's 7% and you know I
32:41think I said we'd all go and ban
32:44Giovanni isms but would it necessarily
32:46be such a bad idea I mean you must have
32:48sometimes stuck up for minority rights
32:49even if the idea you say in your book
32:53women are no minority by the way you're
32:56actually a majority precisely safe so in
32:58that sense they're not minority rights
33:00that we're talking about here if we're
33:01talking about women female rights have I
33:03stuck up for minority rights I don't see
33:05the world you've seen a 7% example would
33:08suggest that even a small group within
33:10women thought that feminism was it you
33:13just decide yourself where the feminism
33:15is a good thing or no it doesn't really
33:16matter well I think it's not a good
33:17thing because it plays identity politics
33:19games and I'm not a fan of identity
33:21critics games and the collectivist
33:23viewpoint I don't think that men should
33:24be set against women I don't think that
33:27we should view the world as a
33:27competition between men and women I
33:29don't think we should view history as a
33:31as a structure that pitted oppressed
33:34women against the oppressor men I don't
33:36like that story I think it's I think
33:38it's a nasty story and I think it's
33:40designed it's it's destined to divide us
33:43in ways that will not be good I think
33:45it's a it's a story fundamentally
33:47predicated on resentment I don't think
33:49it's an accurate view of the way things
33:51unfolded in the past and I don't think
33:54women were as powerless or as unable to
33:56contribute as the feminist claim they
33:57were before like 1960 you thought things
34:02did come into balance for women in the
34:0360s so watching her story was good about
34:06the sixties yes I thought that the birth
34:09control pill was invented and the reason
34:12that women have far more flexibility
34:15let's say in their lives now is
34:16fundamentally because they have more
34:18control over the reproductive status and
34:20that never really happened until the
34:211960s they may have built other
34:24conclusions on that other than that
34:25great I can control my fertility it's
34:27great I can control my fertility now
34:29what is the question that what else well
34:31that is but that but that that's exactly
34:33it that is precisely the question that
34:35we're dealing with but but the but the
34:37causal order of that is oh now I can
34:40control my fertility now what that's a
34:42biological revolution but that has
34:44consequences for men as well as women of
34:46course it does and their constant watch
34:48the men have to change we've had we've
34:51had a lot of focus here on how women
34:54have had it better than that perhaps you
34:56think that feminists modern feminists
34:57think they have I don't I don't know
34:59need to change I don't know if women had
35:01it better than modern feminists think
35:03they had it I think that if women had it
35:05hard in the past which they certainly do
35:07that the amount of that was that was
35:10attributable to male oppression is
35:11small/small far smaller than the
35:13feminists claim because Nature had her
35:16hand in that you know the average person
35:18in the Western world in 1895 lived on
35:21less than a dollar a day in today's
35:23money that's below the UN guidelines for
35:25poverty so life was very hard for men
35:27and women for almost all of human
35:29history and to view that as part of an
35:31oppression narrative on the part of men
35:33I think is one of the things that that
35:35is very hard on young men for example
35:37when they're trying to take their place
35:38in the world so what how would men have
35:42to change because women have control
35:44over the reproductive function that's an
35:46open-ended question
35:48I don't know casual sex is much more
35:51available than it used to be that's one
35:53way that men have been able to change
35:54they haven't had to take on
35:56responsibility for adopting a long-term
35:59monogamous relationship in order to get
36:00sexual access so that's a big change
36:03it's also enabled men to not grow up to
36:05quite a great I'm not sure if you're
36:07welcoming that I'm not that I'm not I'm
36:09not saying it's a good thing just very
36:10concept so movements that bring you that
36:13whole difficulty of the mating game
36:16hookup culture into the debate must
36:19therefore be a good thing and it
36:20presumably you would also you know I
36:23don't think you maybe but would you
36:24welcome that I think there's very little
36:26good about the hook-up culture I think
36:28there's very little good about casual
36:30sexual relationships I don't think
36:31they're good for men or for women and I
36:33mean where do you stand on the me to
36:35campaign good thing I think that it
36:39risks damaging the presumption of Emma's
36:41innocence I mean there's plenty more to
36:44it than that
36:44oh sure women women women face the the
36:49arbitrary admixture of sexual advance
36:53and workplace and workplace performance
36:56all the time it's a very complicated
36:58thing to sort out we don't know how to
37:00sort it out exactly because you know I
37:02mean NBC for example the American TV
37:05station has has made it policy that
37:07you're not to hug your coworkers which
37:10you know may be true although I don't
37:12think it's the sort of thing that a
37:13corporation might be deciding for people
37:15but we don't know exactly what the rules
37:17are for governing fail male and female
37:19behavior in the workplace because we've
37:21only been working together for about 35
37:22years
37:23we don't know after 35 years to figure
37:27something out
37:28not when you're talking about a
37:30transformation in behavior that that's
37:33that's that profound I mean we don't
37:35know how men and women can work properly
37:37together in the workforce it's very
37:39complicated men and women across the
37:42world but you are the ones that asked
37:46about me too will you
37:48with your other one hear me - is it well
37:50me - is an expression of the fact that
37:52men and women are having a hard time
37:53regulating their behavior in the
37:55workplace it's the only reason I
37:56responded to that because the question I
37:58think is more broadly suggesting that
38:00some men are having a grave problem with
38:02what is the lesson of the Harvey
38:04Weinstein story for you someone should
38:06have said something about Harvey
38:08Weinstein much sooner but we could start
38:10somewhere else we could start with
38:12Harvey Weinstein was wrong to do what he
38:14did before we go - yes
38:16other people should have spoken out
38:18second order is fair enough fair enough
38:20I thought that went without saying there
38:22are going to be psychopathic predators
38:24they're going to exist and what has to
38:27happen is that people have to stop them
38:28because they won't stop themselves and
38:30so I thought that was sort of implicit
38:31in the statement obviously he shouldn't
38:33have done what he did but you don't
38:35think that the culture in which he was
38:36operating that there was particularly in
38:38his Hollywood in his world and in many
38:41other worlds that there was a culture of
38:44you know like this guy's a powerful guy
38:46he's the great silverback gorilla here
38:48let him get on with it oh I think that
38:50culture was everywhere in Hollywood
38:51which is why I wait
38:53well Hollywood particularly I mean the
38:56casting couch idea has been around for a
38:57very long period of time and I think
38:59that the Hollywood types who are all
39:01upset about this should look to their
39:03own devices with regards to the role
39:05they played in fostering the culture
39:06that managed that so culture we talked
39:14we were talking about cultures so I mean
39:16it's certainly that the Hollywood
39:19what's the sensible thing for women to
39:21do about me - to your mind and what's
39:22the less sensible thing that that's a
39:29hard question and it isn't obvious to me
39:31exactly what men and women have to do in
39:35the workplace to make that kind of
39:37sexual predation much less likely with
39:40all also subjecting themselves to
39:42restrictions on the sexual element
39:44aspect of their existence that would be
39:47unbearable it's very difficult what
39:49would be unbearable about - how about
39:51everybody wears the same uniform to work
39:53that's what the Mao as well look if you
39:56want to eliminate the differences
39:58between men and women sexually at the
40:00workplace you have to constrain the
40:01sexual
40:02differences I mean men wear suits to
40:04work we don't have to eliminate the
40:05sexual differences for people to work
40:07together with respect you have to
40:09eliminate them to some degree why I'm
40:12Jenny because you're trying to your
40:14tribe the question here is to what
40:16degree should sexually related behavior
40:19be impermissible at the workplace well
40:23it depends on how you define it should
40:26you be able to dress attractively and if
40:28you can dress attractively what do you
40:30mean by attractively exactly like
40:32precisely like organized I mean I dress
40:36nicely today you look very well dressed
40:37to me right your man and I'm a woman
40:39with based nicely dressed now we're
40:41getting on with the interview what's the
40:43problem well the problem is is the
40:45boundaries of what constitutes nicely
40:47dressed because there's look because
40:50part of what constitutes attractiveness
40:52part of what constitutes nicely dressed
40:55is sexual attractiveness because you
40:57can't separate out human attractiveness
41:00sexual attractiveness from human
41:02attractiveness and so then the question
41:03is exactly where are the boundaries and
41:05that's what the discussion is about
41:07where are the boundaries the dinner
41:10parties to switch are described in a
41:11foreword to your book where friends
41:13enjoy debates and disagreements do you
41:16think in the broader conversation we've
41:19lost that spirit or in danger of losing
41:21that spirit oh I think I think we're
41:24always in danger of losing that spirit
41:27right because lack of freedom is much
41:29more probable than freedom we have to be
41:31very careful to maintain that because
41:33it's always under threat but I do feel
41:36that it's under threat now I think that
41:38people are very careful about what they
41:40say in ways that aren't good I think the
41:42fact that many comedians won't perform
41:45on university campuses now is a very
41:47good indication of that
41:49that's a canary in the coalmine scenario
41:51that but let's just stick for a moment
41:54on kind of polarization it effects
41:57someone like you or someone with your
41:59message in one sense we're arguing that
42:02polarization of society is a bad thing
42:04if people no longer have a shared space
42:06or shared understanding even of debates
42:08and disagreements and nuance and yet you
42:12part of that problem you're absolutely
42:15the culture that up votes that down
42:17votes in everything at the sort of
42:19sideline on one of your after your
42:21youtubes and there's a lot of Jordan
42:23Peterson destroys so-and-so kills
42:26someone yeah it seems to me a very odd
42:29and reprehensible cut this is a
42:32consequence of some of the way that your
42:35argument is presented and do you feel
42:37any responsibility there well I feel
42:39responsibility I suppose the question is
42:42what the question is what's that what's
42:45the proper level of analysis let's say
42:47well okay so first of all people are
42:51making four thousand videos out of my
42:53videos a week on YouTube and so we're
42:56going to expect that there's going to be
42:57a tremendous amount of variance and how
42:59people do that
43:00and they're competing for views just
43:02like the mainstream video media is
43:04competing for views and one of the ways
43:06to compete for views is to become
43:08sensationalistic and to capitalize on
43:10polarization and I think that's a very
43:12bad idea and I think a lot of that is
43:14happening do you think you ever fall
43:16into that trap ever sure I think I fall
43:20into that trap although I wouldn't say
43:21video well you know I because of my
43:26distaste for what's happening on the
43:28university campuses and my embarrassment
43:30at being associated with with with that
43:34because of my my academic standing let's
43:37say I perhaps become more irritable
43:39about the fact of of identity politics
43:44that might be optimal although I think
43:46in the main I'm quite careful and often
43:50under extreme duress and I think that
43:52that's what you have you eat fed and I
43:54think this is a social media environment
43:56sometimes pushes many of us in this
43:58direction in advance what have you said
44:00that about identity politics or possibly
44:02when you you ended up in broad a big
44:04argument about trans rights have you
44:06said things that you regret it I may
44:08have become more emotional about things
44:11that might have been optimal in terms of
44:14things that I've said no that's been
44:17okay so far and I've been very careful
44:21about what I've been saying and do you
44:23think that people hear things the way
44:24that you see them I just watched a lot
44:26as you say a lot of videos been made and
44:28they're often sort of cut
44:29from lectures or appearances but when
44:31you talk say about domestic violence and
44:33there's a sort of thesis behind it and
44:35I'm putting it in a bit bit of a
44:36nutshell here so feel free to rephrase
44:39it that men in the end if men are pushed
44:43too far by a too aggressive effeminate
44:45ism there will be a backlash and that
44:46there is you know there's a sort of
44:47undercurrent of violence be advised that
44:51Sam Ordnung Nora Nora that's a warning
44:55suggests that there may be sort of
44:58faults in those who push progressivism
45:01too far they will get a backlash some
45:03people of course see that as a bit of a
45:04permissive environment for bad behavior
45:08well people tend to confuse describing
45:12the likelihood of something with
45:13supporting the fact that it exists and
45:15I'm describing the likelihood of
45:17something not not supporting the fact
45:20that it exists if you push too far on
45:22the left you're going to get a backlash
45:23on the right that's how things work and
45:25this is just a derivation of that as far
45:28as I'm concerned how does that domestic
45:29in the context of domestic violence oh I
45:32don't I don't think it's applicable in
45:34the context of domestic violence at all
45:35I don't I think those things are
45:37completely separate issues I mean you
45:39were mentioning to me just as we were
45:41and I was speaking only politically with
45:43regards to the backlash that was that
45:45that was a comment on political backlash
45:47and it had nothing to do with domestic
45:49violence that's a whole different issue
45:50but violence often pops up in you in
45:53your work or something you think drives
45:55things that you I think you've said in
45:56relations between men are more regulated
45:59by a background threat of force and it's
46:02that's that's why men have difficulty
46:03with women is it no that's why it men
46:05have difficulty with women who are
46:07completely out of control but women who
46:09show women well other women themselves
46:12men society just like everyone is
46:16controlled I mean you're controlled by
46:17society I'm controlled by society and
46:19thank God for that I mean part of funny
46:22I mean you described yourself as a
46:23liberal and I think a liberal doesn't
46:25think the society controls women woman
46:28well let's say regulates I'm a
46:30psychologist as well a woman what is
46:33this creature how do we know when we met
46:35one I'm sure that you've met women in
46:38your life that that that acted towards
46:41you and bullying and detest
46:43Manor it's very difficult for women to
46:44cope with that because they don't have
46:45any real recourse and female bullying
46:47can be unbelievably vicious and usually
46:50that takes the place of takes the shape
46:52of reputation destruction innuendo and
46:54gossip it's well documented it's very
46:57difficult and you know men do it too but
46:59men know it a new view oh no sir yes
47:04when yes disproportionately women that's
47:06what the data indicate I mean if men are
47:08data on innuendo gossip
47:11well it's among antisocial behavior
47:12among adolescents it's well documented
47:14field so because people look at
47:16aggressive and anti-social behavior in
47:18women and in men and in women intends to
47:20take the expression of innuendo gossip
47:22and reputation destruction and in mana
47:24take tends to take the form of outright
47:26physical aggression there's a whole
47:28literature on that it's not a surprise
47:29to anyone this has been known suffer for
47:32thirty years I mean the rates of ethics
47:34right here the female Agosta probably
47:36predates thirty no doesn't make it
47:40gospel but people have no it doesn't but
47:42people have looked at how women express
47:45it look women have to express aggression
47:47somehow unless you're willing to say
47:48that they're not aggressive they tend
47:50not to do it physically not to the
47:52degree men do so they use other channels
47:54and what other channels are there other
47:56than physical aggression if you're going
47:57to be aggressive well you go after
47:59people verbally you go after them with
48:01innuendo and gossip and reputation
48:02destruction and that's how it that's how
48:04it works and just to be clear that you
48:06think that's predominantly a female made
48:08it so probably it isn't that I think
48:11that it's the clinical literature
48:14indicates that it's that I think it well
48:17not interviewing the clinical
48:18engineering you would use well I'm a
48:19psychologist and a scientist and I tend
48:21to and I tend to base my opinions on
48:24what I've read in the broad relevant
48:26clinical literature I'm not making this
48:28stuff up I studied antisocial behavior
48:30for like 15 years I'm actually quite an
48:32expert on it and so we know that men are
48:36more likely to look look look at it this
48:38way all right
48:40women are much more likely to try to
48:42commit suicide and men are much more
48:44likely to kill themselves and the reason
48:47for that is that men use lethal force
48:48and women don't now that's a big
48:51difference okay so then you say well
48:53women manifest aggression towards them
48:56selves
48:56to others but they don't use lethal
48:58force they don't use physical force the
49:00same way men do so they have to do it
49:01some other way whatever way to something
49:04some other way that people are in war
49:07against your base your hope is Ian like
49:10normal half and half half Hobbes half
49:13Rousseau that's why I'm not an ideologue
49:15because I don't think that people are
49:17good or evil I think they're both I
49:19don't think that culture is security or
49:21tyranny I think it's both and I don't
49:23think that nature is benevolence or
49:26catastrophe I think it's both and that's
49:28why I'm not an ideologue I need you to
49:31cite rule now because I've got 28 bits
49:32of paper here but I'm just gonna carry
49:34on in the meantime because we need
49:35getting towards the end and nicely
49:36warmed up you rightly picked up on the
49:40disruptive effect of social media but
49:42also the technological shifts in in
49:44media and mass media consumption my
49:48argument was that this might be you know
49:50leading to polarization the people like
49:51you who are immensely successful within
49:53this mill year also driving your book
49:56sales you know you just just I think
49:58just as I'm talking to you hit the top
50:00of the Amazon list here in the UK but
50:04there is that you know that the point
50:06that you become part of the problem that
50:08you've put a finger on yourself you want
50:10people to get along together you want
50:13men and women just sort of trade off we
50:15don't agree entirely where these trade
50:16offs are but you know we're here in
50:18arguing about it and yet at the same
50:20time you succeed most when you say
50:22something very provocative that goes
50:24viral sort of no I don't think that's
50:27when I succeed most so for example one
50:31of the one of the incidents that
50:33propelled me to - just a success let's
50:38say in terms of public recognition in
50:40the UK was my interview with Kathy
50:42Newman and the reason that that
50:44propelled me to success wasn't because I
50:46said something provocative but because I
50:48refused under substantial duress to say
50:50anything provocative and so the part of
50:52the reason that I've become popular to
50:55the degree that I have been is that I'm
50:57actually very good at keeping my temper
50:58under situations that would would would
51:01not under situations where there's
51:04substantial reason not to let's say and
51:06I would also say that the the good that
51:09I've done
51:10regards to my online lectures far
51:12outweighs whatever harm might be done by
51:15the fact that people are cutting them
51:16and making provocative titles out of
51:18them and construing this as some sort of
51:20fundamental political war but it's not
51:22just other people if you look at
51:24something like that the model that you
51:25partly you know used to promote your
51:27work is the crowdfunding site so the
51:28more you incite a reaction the more
51:31loyal at your patreon site the more
51:33loyal the subscribers become now the
51:36more money is raised for causes that you
51:38want to promote no that isn't how it
51:40works the reason that first of all I
51:41give away all my content online for free
51:43so the people who subscribe to pager and
51:46are subscribing to nothing they're there
51:48supporting me and then they're not
51:49supporting me because of my political
51:50stance primarily they're supporting me
51:52because they've watched my videos and
51:54they've been helped by them as
51:55individuals and they're hoping that that
51:57can happen to a lot of other yeah if you
51:59want if you see the self help and you
52:01want to give it away for nothing then
52:02why bring money into the equation at all
52:04and why I have this sort of high-octane
52:06sort of it is your crowdsourcing does
52:09rely on people coming to you wanting to
52:11pledge their money why put money into it
52:13at all isn't this an area where well I
52:14think it might be better left at I am an
52:17evil capitalist after all and I don't
52:19really make any apologies for that I set
52:22up my patreon site mostly out of
52:23curiosity because I've been interested
52:25in for a long time in how creative
52:28people can monetize their creative
52:30productions because that's actually part
52:31of my technical interest because it's
52:33very hard to monetize creative
52:34productions because they have long term
52:36benefit but it's hard to show why do you
52:37want to monetize well because I can do
52:40useful things with money and partly
52:42because I'm curious
52:43partly because I need to live partly
52:45because my job was at risk for a long
52:47while and that's not going to happen to
52:48me again
52:49partly because I had to give up my
52:50clinical practice because of other
52:52considerations
52:52partly because I have a family partly
52:54because I want to using money to for a
53:00cause or is it about raising money for
53:02you well I don't separate myself from
53:04what I'm doing so I can't really answer
53:06that question I mean for me what am I
53:08going to buy a yacht no you know like
53:10I'm not a luxury kind of guy I'm not
53:12looking to live the high life I'm 55
53:14years old for God's sake what would I do
53:16with that you know I have lots of things
53:18that I would do with with some money one
53:21of the things I want to do is build an
53:22online university but it's not the only
53:23thing
53:24want to do and so I would put the money
53:26to good use I suspect or at least a
53:28reasonable use and the reason that
53:29people are providing me with this money
53:31which they don't have to do is because
53:34they hope that I'll continue to do what
53:36I'm doing and that is exactly the reason
53:38they're providing it with me and my
53:40leftist critics have been you know been
53:41saying for consistently it's actually
53:44quite comical well look at all the money
53:45that dr. Peterson is generating with his
53:47patreon account it's like well I'm not
53:49selling anything all the stuff I do
53:52online is free it's not even advertising
53:55supported so if people want to support
53:57me on patreon because they think that
53:58what I'm doing is helpful then like more
54:00power to them as far as I'm concerned
54:02and do you feel it when you the response
54:04you get through that site and then
54:05others that your judgment is equally
54:09good when it comes to spotting sort of
54:11things that gone too far and this of
54:12can't of a far left and attitudes that
54:16come from the right the far right all
54:18right and I'm not mixing up these
54:20categories with you you you can
54:22differentiate which well do you some do
54:24you feel that you're kind of hearing
54:25works better in one direction than the
54:27other ah no I don't think so I mean this
54:29week for example I was accused by a
54:31Jewish newspaper of harboring Nazi
54:34sympathies which was rather miserable
54:36but at the same time an alright article
54:38came out today telling me that I was a
54:40stooge and a shill for the Jews so you
54:43know I figure I'm pretty much in the
54:44middle if I can attract that sort of
54:46criticism on both sides and so on with
54:48regards to the right-wing issue the
54:51right-wing does not pose a threat to the
54:53integrity of universities in North
54:55America and Europe but the left-wing
54:56certainly does and that's well
54:58documented and not by me there are no
55:00conservatives in universities in the
55:02social sciences and the humanities
55:04they don't exist and that's not a good
55:06thing and the radical left in
55:08universities absolutely exists and has
55:10throughout early threatened the
55:11integrity of those institutions and so
55:13to the degree that I've concentrated on
55:15the radical left it's because the
55:17radical left has has usurped the
55:20universities that well might say in the
55:22global context and authoritarianism
55:23which often turns rightwards is a threat
55:25to race PhD universities to the rules
55:30absolutely and I've written extensively
55:31about right-wing authoritarian threats
55:34to Liberty extensively let's
55:37let's not ignore the the the big
55:40American elephant in the room Donald
55:42Trump you do you see him as an
55:44expression of a lot of the attitudes the
55:48kind of unhappiness discontent no not
55:53rude or something suey Jenner is
55:55something different will make of it well
55:57first of all you know Americans have
56:00voted 50% Republican and 50% Democrat
56:03for like five elections in a row nothing
56:06changed the Republicans had Trump as a
56:08candidate and the Democrats had Hillary
56:10and that's the way it turned out and I
56:12mean it was a 50/50 split so I don't see
56:14that there's been a massive shift in the
56:16American political landscape that's for
56:20sure yes definitely that that's that's
56:23that that's the that's the interesting
56:25thing I mean Trump did something very
56:28interesting in the primaries and and and
56:30is in his grip on on the on the
56:34Republican nomination eventually and I
56:36don't know really what to make of it
56:38it's it's certainly to some degree the
56:42fact that he won was an expression of
56:44the fact that people were discontented
56:46with the Democrats tilt towards identity
56:49politics because they lost a fair bit of
56:51their working-class base but I think
56:53that can be laid entirely at the feet of
56:54the Democrats they made a big mistake
56:56doing that because the working class
56:58needs a political voice and the
57:00Democrats decided to play identity
57:02politics so he blamed them is anything
57:04wrong with with Trump or anything is
57:06wrong with Trump you know I mean it
57:09doesn't take a genius to lay them out
57:10while he's rather bombastic he seems to
57:12be somewhat on the narcissistic side
57:14he's certainly a master at manipulating
57:16the media I mean so it and and and he's
57:20a very peculiar character it doesn't
57:22take a genius to list his faults what
57:25Trump signifies I I don't know I can't I
57:27can't put my finger on him yet let's
57:30conclude with I don't think he's a great
57:33coming of Satan you know I don't think
57:35that the America is any more polarized
57:37than it was in 1972 and and the economy
57:40in the u.s. is booming at the moment and
57:42he hasn't got us into any particularly
57:44idiotic Wars yet so I'm pretty happy
57:46about that liberalism what needs it what
57:51they need to change you said earlier on
57:52that you were casting it really it's
57:53hustled a bit about what that might mean
57:55in terms of what causes you supporter
57:57used to dissociate itself from the
57:59radical left which it refuses to do it
58:02won't undertake the conceptual
58:04difficulty of deciding when the left has
58:06gone too far and I've got to ask you
58:09have you got a favorite feminists do I
58:13have a favorite feminist I don't think
58:17of things that way I'm not a favorite
58:20video logs do I have a favorite
58:22admirable woman who would be my favorite
58:30admirable woman I'm sorry I have a
58:39difficulty difficult time bringing names
58:41to mind the woman who established
58:43nursing as a profession in Britain it's
58:45nice yes Florence Nightingale it's like
58:48it's good for Florence
58:50she thought I think men were unsuited to
58:52Nursing because she she had gender
58:54stereotypes should we be telling her off
58:57well some men are unsuited to Nursing
59:01and some aren't and unlikely any
59:04unlikely heroes or heroines I'm a big
59:07fan of Tom Waits
59:09don't Waits I think we can agree on that
59:12Jordan Peterson thank you very much
59:15thanks a lot for the invitation
59:21you

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