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Jordan Peterson - Channel 4 Interview — Transcript

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0:00Jordan Peterson you've said that men
0:02need to quote grow the hell up tell me
0:04why
0:06well because there's nothing
0:08uglier than an old infant
0:10there's nothing good about it it people
0:12who don't grow up don't find this sort
0:15of meaning in their life that sustains
0:17them through difficult times and they
0:18are certain to encounter difficult times
0:20and they're left bitter and resentful
0:23and without purpose and adrift and
0:25hostile and resentful and vengeful and
0:28arrogant and deceitful and and of no use
0:31to themselves and of no use to anyone
0:33else and no partner for a woman and
0:35there's nothing in it that's good so you
0:38said I mean that sounds pretty bad
0:39you're saying there's a crisis of
0:40masculinity I mean what do you do about
0:42it
0:43you tell you help people understand why
0:47it's necessary and important for them to
0:51grow up and adopt responsibility why
0:52that isn't a shake your finger and get
0:55your act together sort of thing why it's
0:57more like why it's more like a
1:00delineation of the kind of destiny that
1:03makes life worth living I've been
1:04telling young men and but it's not I
1:06wasn't specifically aiming this message
1:08at young men to begin with it just kind
1:10of turned out that way and it's mostly
1:12you admit it's mostly men listening I
1:13mean it is your audience is amazing well
1:16it's about 80 on on YouTube which is a
1:18YouTube is a male domain primarily so
1:21it's hard to tell how much of it is
1:22because YouTube is male and how how much
1:24of it is because of what I'm saying but
1:27um
1:28the
1:29you you what I've been telling young men
1:31is that there's an actual reason why
1:33they need to grow up which is that they
1:35have something to offer you know that
1:37that that people have within them this
1:40capacity to set the world straight and
1:42that's necessary to manifest in the
1:44world and that also doing so is where
1:47you find the meaning that sustains you
1:50in life so what's going wrong then
1:52oh God all sorts of things have gone
1:54wrong I I think that
1:57I don't think that young men are hear
2:00words of encouragement some some of them
2:02never in their entire lives as far as I
2:03can tell that's what they tell me and
2:05the fact that the words that I've been
2:07that I've been speaking the YouTube
2:09lectures that I've done and put online
2:10for example have had such a dramatic
2:13impact is an indication that young men
2:15are starving for this sort of message
2:17because like why in the world would they
2:19have to derive it from a lecture on
2:21YouTube now they're not being taught
2:23that they that it's important to develop
2:26yourself but does it does it bother you
2:28that your audience is predominantly male
2:32does that isn't isn't that a bit
2:33divisive no I don't think so I mean it's
2:36no more divisive than the fact that
2:38YouTube is primarily male and tumblers
2:40female isn't it tumblr is primarily
2:43female
2:44right you're just saying That's the Way
2:45It Is Well it's I'm not saying anything
2:47it's just an observation that that's the
2:49way it is
2:50um there's plenty of women that are
2:52watching my lectures and coming to my
2:53talks and buying my books it's just that
2:55the majority of them happen to be men
2:57uh it's what's in it for the women
2:59though
3:01well what sort of partner do you want
3:03you want an overgrown child
3:05or do you want someone to contend with
3:07that's going to help you rely on women
3:09have some sort of Duty to sort of help
3:11fix the crisis masculinity it depends on
3:13what they want
3:15no I mean it's it's exactly exactly how
3:18I laid it out like women want deeply
3:21want men who are competent and Powerful
3:25and and I don't mean power in in in the
3:29in that they can exert tyrannical
3:32control over others that's not power
3:34that's just corruption power is
3:37competence
3:38and why in the world would you not want
3:40a competent partner well I I know why
3:42actually you can't dominate a competent
3:44partner so if you want domination
3:47dominate is that what you're saying no
3:48I'd say women who have had their
3:50relationships impaired with impaired
3:53their relationships with men impaired
3:56and who are afraid of such relationships
3:57will settle for a weak partner because
4:00they can dominate them but it's a
4:01sub-optimal solution
4:05I think there's a substantial minority
4:07of women who do that and I think it's
4:10very bad for them they're very unhappy
4:11it's very bad for their Partners
4:13although their Partners get the
4:14advantage of not having to take any
4:16responsibility but what gives you the
4:18right to say that I mean maybe that's
4:19how women want their relationships those
4:21women I mean you're making these vast
4:22generalizations I'm a clinical
4:25psychologist right so you're saying
4:27you've done your research and women are
4:29unhappy dominating men
4:31I didn't say they were unhappy
4:33dominating men I said it was a bad
4:34long-term solution okay you said it was
4:36making them miserable yes it is and it
4:38depends on the time frame I mean there
4:39can be there's intense pleasure in
4:41momentary domination that's why people
4:43do it all the time but it's no formula
4:46for a long-term successful long-term
4:47relationship that's reciprocal right any
4:50long-term relationship is reciprocal
4:52virtually by definition
4:54so let me put a quote to you from the
4:57book well you see there are whole
4:58disciplines in universities forthrightly
5:00hostile towards men these are the areas
5:03of study dominated by the postmodern
5:05stroke neo-marx's claim that Western
5:07culture in particular is an oppressive
5:09structure created by white men to
5:12dominate and exclude women
5:17but I want to put to you that here in
5:19the UK for example let's take that as an
5:20example the gender pay Gap stands at
5:23just over nine percent you've got women
5:25at the BBC recently saying that the
5:27broadcaster is illegally paying them
5:30less than men to do the same job you've
5:32got only seven women running the top
5:35ftse 100 companies yeah so it seems to a
5:38lot of women that they're still being
5:40dominated and excluded to quote your
5:42words back to you it does seem that way
5:44but multivariate analysis of the pay Gap
5:46indicate that it doesn't exist but
5:49that's just true is it I mean that nine
5:51percent pager that's a gap between
5:53median hourly earnings between men and
5:55women but that exists yeah but there's
5:57multiple reasons for that one of them is
5:59gender but it's not the only reason like
6:01if you're a social scientist worth worth
6:03your salt you never do a univariate
6:05analysis like you say well women in
6:08aggregate are paid less than men okay
6:10well then we break it down by age we
6:12break it down by occupation we break it
6:14down by interest we break it down by
6:15personality but you're saying basically
6:17it doesn't matter if women aren't
6:19getting to the top because that's what's
6:20skewing that gender pay Gap isn't it
6:22you're saying well that's just a fact
6:24you're going to get to the top no I'm
6:26not saying it doesn't matter either
6:27you're saying there are multiple reasons
6:30for it yeah why should women put up with
6:32those reasons
6:37I'm saying that the claim that the wage
6:41gap between men and women is only due to
6:43sex is wrong and it is wrong there's no
6:47doubt about that the multivariate
6:48analysis have been done
6:51multivari denominations I'm saying that
6:54nine percent pay Gap exists that's a gap
6:57between men and women I'm not saying why
6:59it exists but it exists now if you're a
7:02woman that seems pretty unfair
7:04you have to say why it exists but do you
7:07agree that it's unfair if you're a woman
7:08not necessarily and on average you're
7:10getting paid nine percent less than a
7:11man that's not fair is it
7:13it depends on why it's happening
7:15I can give you an example okay
7:18there's a personality trait known as
7:20agreeableness agreeable people are
7:22compassionate and polite
7:24and agreeable people get paid less than
7:26less agreeable people for the same job
7:30women are more agreeable than men
7:32again a vast generalizations
7:35that's true but that's right and some
7:37women get paid more than men so you were
7:40saying that by and large women are too
7:42agreeable to get the pay Rises no I'm
7:44saying that that's one component of a
7:46multivariate equation that predicts
7:50um celery
7:51it accounts for maybe five percent of
7:53the variance something like that so
7:54surely you need about another 20 we
7:56needed about another 18 factors one of
7:58which is gender and there is Prejudice
8:00there's no doubt about that but it
8:02accounts for a much smaller proportion
8:04of the variance in the pay Gap than the
8:07radical feminists claim okay so rather
8:09than denying the pay Gap exists which is
8:11what you did at the beginning of this
8:12conversation shouldn't you say to women
8:14rather than being agreeable and not
8:16asking for a pay rise go and ask for a
8:18pay rise make yourself disagreeable with
8:19your boss oh definitely there's that but
8:21I also didn't deny it existed I denied
8:23it it existed because of gender okay
8:25because I'm very very very careful with
8:29my words so the pay Gap exists you
8:32accept that but you're saying I'm in the
8:35pay gap between men and women exists but
8:37you're saying it's not because of gender
8:38it's because women are too agreeable to
8:39us for pay Rises one of the reasons okay
8:41one of the reasons so why not get them
8:43to ask for a pay rise
8:45many many times in my career oh they do
8:48it all the time you can it's so one of
8:51the things that you do as a clinical
8:53psychologist is
8:55um assertiveness training so you might
8:57say
8:59often you treat people for anxiety you
9:01treat them for depression
9:04um and you and and maybe the next most
9:06common category after that would be
9:07assertiveness training and so I've had
9:09many many women extraordinarily
9:11competent women in my clinical and
9:13Consulting practice and we put together
9:14strategies for their career development
9:16that involved continual pushing
9:18competing for higher wages and often
9:22tripled their wages within a five-year
9:24period
9:25of course so do you actually do you
9:29agree that you would be happy if that
9:32pay Gap was eliminated completely
9:33because that's all the radical feminists
9:36are saying it would depend on how it was
9:38eradicated and how the how how The
9:41Disappearance of it was measured and
9:43you're saying the cost of men that's a
9:45problem Oh there's all sorts of things
9:47that it could be at the cost of it could
9:48even be at the cost of women's own
9:50interests
9:51so because they might not be happy if
9:53they get equal pay no because it might
9:56interfere with other things that are
9:58causing the pay Gap that women are
9:59choosing to do like having children
10:01well or choosing careers that actually
10:03happen to be paid less which women do a
10:05lot of but why shouldn't women have the
10:07right to choose not to have children or
10:09the right to choose they do they can
10:12yeah that's fine but you're saying that
10:14makes them unhappy by and large I'm
10:16saying that that no I'm not saying that
10:18I'm I and I actually haven't said that
10:20so far you're saying it makes them
10:22miserable no I said if I was making them
10:24miserable was having part was having
10:26weak partners
10:28that makes them miserable right um I
10:30would say that many women around the age
10:32of I would say between 28 and 32 have a
10:36career family crisis that they have to
10:38deal with and I think that's partly
10:40because of the four shortened time frame
10:42that women have to contend with like
10:43women have to get the major pieces of
10:47their life put together faster than men
10:49which is also partly why men aren't
10:50under so much pressure to grow up so
10:52because for the typical woman
10:55um she has to have her career and family
10:57in order pretty much by the time she's
10:5935 because otherwise the options start
11:02to run out and so that puts a tremendous
11:04amount of stress on women especially at
11:06the end of their 20s I think I take
11:07issue with the idea of the typical woman
11:09because you know all women are different
11:11and that's why I want to just put
11:12another quote to you from the book
11:13different in some ways and the same in
11:15others okay you say women become more
11:18vulnerable when they have children and
11:20you talk to one of your YouTube
11:21interviews about crazy Harpy sisters so
11:27simple question is gender equality a
11:29myth in your view is that something
11:31that's just never going to happen
11:32it depends on what you mean by equality
11:35if you mean men and women getting the
11:37same opportunities
11:41fairly people we could get to a point
11:44where people were treated fairly or more
11:46fairly I mean people are treated pretty
11:47fairly in Western culture already but we
11:50can they're really not though are they I
11:51mean otherwise why would there only be
11:53seven women running ftse 100 companies
11:55in the UK why why would there still be a
11:57pay gap which we've discussed why are
12:00women at the BBC saying that they're
12:02getting paid illegally less than men to
12:04do the same job that's not fair that's
12:06good at the first question they're both
12:08complicated questions seven seven women
12:11repeat that one there's seven women
12:12running the top ftse 100 companies in
12:14the UK that question might be
12:17um why would you want to do that
12:19why would a man want to do it
12:22I know there's a lot of money there's a
12:24certain number of of men although not
12:26that many
12:28who are perfectly willing to sacrifice
12:30virtually all of their life to the
12:33pursuit of a high-end career so they'll
12:35work these are men that are very
12:37intelligent they're usually very very
12:39conscientious they're very driven
12:40they're very high energy they're very
12:42healthy and they're willing to work 70
12:44or 80 hours a week non-stop specialized
12:47at one thing to get to the top so you
12:50guys like women are just more sensible
12:51they don't want that because it's not a
12:52nice life I'm saying that's part of it
12:53definitely and so I work for you you
12:56don't think there are barriers in their
12:57way that prevent them getting to the top
12:59there are some barriers yeah like other
13:01like men for example I mean to get to
13:03the top of any organization is
13:05incredibly competitive Enterprise and
13:08the men that you're competing with are
13:09simply not going to roll over and say
13:11please take the position so let me come
13:13back absolutely all-out Warfare is
13:15gender equality a myth
13:17I don't know what you mean by the
13:19question men and women aren't the same
13:21and they won't be the same that doesn't
13:22mean they can't be treated fairly is
13:24gender equality desirable
13:26if it means equality of outcome then
13:28almost certainly it's undesirable that's
13:30already been demonstrated in Scandinavia
13:32because in Scandinavia what do you mean
13:34by the equality of outcome is
13:36undesirable well men and women won't
13:37sort themselves into the same categories
13:39if you leave them alone to do it off
13:40their own accord I've already seen that
13:42in Scandinavia it's 20 to 1. female
13:45nurses to male something like that it
13:47might not be quite that extreme and
13:49approximately the same male Engineers to
13:51female engineers and that's a
13:53consequence of the free choice of men
13:55and women in the societies that have
13:57gone farther than any other societies to
13:59make gender equality the purpose of the
14:01law those are inerradicable differences
14:04you can eradicate them with tremendous
14:06social pressure and tyranny but if you
14:08leave men and women to make their own
14:10choices you will not get equal outcomes
14:12right so you're saying that anyone who
14:13believes in equality whether you call
14:15them feminist cooling whatever you want
14:16to call them should basically give up
14:18because it ain't gonna happen only if
14:20they're aiming at equality of outcome
14:23so you're saying give people equality of
14:25opportunity that's fine not only fine
14:28it's eminently desirable for everyone
14:30for individuals and for society but
14:32still women aren't going to make it
14:34that's what you're really saying depends
14:35on your measurement techniques they're
14:36doing just fine in medicine
14:38in fact there are far more female
14:40Physicians than there are male
14:41Physicians there are lots of lots of
14:44disciplines that are absolutely
14:45dominated by women many many disciplines
14:48and they're doing great
14:49so let me put something else to you from
14:51the book you say the introduction of the
14:53equal pay for equal work argument
14:55immediately complicates even salary
14:56comparison Beyond practicality for one
14:59simple reason who decides what work is
15:01equal it's not possible so the simple
15:04question is do you believe in equal pay
15:09well I made the argument there it's like
15:10it depends
15:13no I'm not saying that at all because a
15:16lot of people listening to you will just
15:18so I mean are we going back to them
15:19we're actually not listening I'm just
15:22being projecting it and I'm hearing you
15:24basically saying women need to just
15:26accept they're never going to make it on
15:28equal terms equal outcomes is what how
15:31you defined it no idea
15:33I would go well I might as well just go
15:36and play with my Cindy dolls and give up
15:38trying at school because I'm not going
15:39to get the top job I want because
15:41someone's sitting there saying it's not
15:43possible
15:44desirable that's what they said it's a
15:47it's a bad social law I didn't say that
15:49women shouldn't be striving for the top
15:51or anything like that because I don't
15:53believe that for a second striving for
15:54the top but you're going to put all
15:55those hurdles in their way as has been
15:57in their way for centuries and that's
16:00fine you're saying that's fine no no I
16:01think I really the patriarchal system is
16:03just that's silly I do I think that's
16:05silly I really do I mean look look at
16:07your situation you're hardly
16:09unsuccessful yeah
16:11exactly good that's okay battling is
16:14good this is all about inevitable but
16:16you talk about men let me just put
16:19another thing to you from the beginning
16:20for a high quality position
16:23well I notice in your book you talk
16:24about real conversations between men
16:27containing quote an underlying threat of
16:29physicality oh there's no doubt about
16:31that what about real conversations
16:33between women is that something or are
16:35we sort of too amenable and reasonable
16:37no it's just that the domain of physical
16:40conflict is sort of off limits for you
16:43to get where I've got yeah but what does
16:45that means I don't imagine that you've
16:48yeah to some degree I suspect you're not
16:50very agreeable so that's the thing
16:52successful women I'm not very agreeable
16:54right I don't have that actually in this
16:56conversation at least and I'm sure it
16:58served your career well successful women
17:00though basically have to wear the
17:02trousers in your view they have to sort
17:04of become men to succeed is what you're
17:06saying well I've had to fight to succeed
17:08against man certainly masculine traits
17:11are going to be helpful I mean one of
17:13the things I do in in my Counseling
17:15Practice for example when I'm Consulting
17:18with women who are trying to advance
17:19their careers is to teach them how to
17:21negotiate and to and to be able to say
17:23no and to not be easily pushed around
17:25and to be formidable and you need to if
17:27you're going to be successful you need
17:29to be smart conscientious and tough well
17:31here's a radical idea why don't the
17:33bosses adopt some the male bosses shall
17:36we say adopt some female email trades so
17:38that women don't have to fight and get
17:40their sharp elbows out for the pay Rises
17:41it's just accepted if they're doing the
17:43same job they get the same pay
17:45well I would say partly because it's not
17:47so easy to determine what constitutes
17:49the same job because
17:52arguably yeah there are still men
17:54dominating our Industries our society
17:57and therefore they've dictated the terms
17:59for so long that women have to battle
18:01tonight it's not true
18:04it's not true so for example well I can
18:07give you an example very quickly so I
18:09worked with women who worked in
18:11high-powered law firms in Canada for
18:13about 15 years and they were as
18:15competent and put together as anybody
18:18you would ever meet and we were trying
18:20to figure out how to further their
18:21careers
18:22and there was a huge debate in Canadian
18:25Society at that point that was basically
18:27ran along the same lines as your
18:29argument is that if the law firms didn't
18:31use these masculine criteria then
18:33perhaps women would do better but the
18:35market sets the damn game it's like and
18:38the market is dominated by men it's not
18:40the market is dominated by women they
18:42make 80 of the consumer decisions that's
18:44not the case
18:46people who stay at home looking after
18:49children by and large they are still
18:51women so they're going out doing the
18:52shopping but that is changing
18:54decisions okay so the market is driven
18:57by women not men right okay and if
18:59you're a lawyer they still pay more for
19:01the same sort of goods that's been
19:03proven that men for the you buy a blue
19:05bicycle helmet it's going to cost less
19:07than a pink one anyway we'll come on to
19:08that it's partly because men are less
19:10agreeable
19:11right so so they won't put up with it I
19:14want to ask you
19:15is it not desirable to have some of
19:17those female traits you're talking about
19:19I'd say that's a generalization but
19:21you've used the words female traits is
19:23it not desirable to have some of them at
19:24the top of business I mean maybe they
19:26wouldn't have been they're not
19:27prediction crisis they don't predict
19:28success in the workplace the things that
19:30predict success in the workplace are
19:32intelligence and conscientiousness
19:33agreeableness negatively predicts
19:35success in the workplace High negative
19:37emotions you're saying that women aren't
19:39intelligent enough to run these top
19:40companies no I didn't say that at all he
19:42said that female traits don't predict
19:45success but I didn't say that
19:47intelligence wasn't I didn't say that
19:48intelligence and conscientious
19:51just by implication are not female
19:53traits oh no I mean that's certainly not
19:57saying that at all are women less
19:58intelligent than men no a lot no they're
20:00not no they the data on that's pretty
20:02clear the average IQ for a woman in the
20:05average IQ for a man is identical there
20:07is some debate about the flatness of the
20:09distribution which is something that
20:10James demore pointed out for example in
20:12his memo but there's no difference at
20:14all in general ability there's no
20:16difference to speak of in
20:17conscientiousness women are a bit more
20:19orderly than men and men are a little
20:21bit more industrious than women but the
20:23difference isn't big but that averages
20:25into quantity men who aren't necessarily
20:27well of course
20:29so why are they not feminine traits why
20:32are they not desirable at the top of
20:33feminine traits why are they not
20:35desirable at the top it's hard to say
20:36I'm just laying out the empirical
20:38evidence like we know that we know the
20:40traits that predict success but we also
20:42know because companies by and large have
20:44not been dominated by women over the
20:46centuries we have nothing to compare it
20:47to
20:48it's an experiment true and it could be
20:51the case that if companies modified
20:53their behavior and became more feminine
20:54they would be successful but there's no
20:56evidence for it I'm not neither doubtful
20:58nor non-doubtful there's no evidence why
21:00not give it a go as the radical because
21:02the evidence suggests well it's fine if
21:04like if someone wants to start a company
21:06and make it more feminine and
21:09compassionate let's say and caring in
21:11its overall orientation towards its
21:13workers and towards the marketplace then
21:15that's a perfectly reasonable experiment
21:16to run my point is that there is no
21:19evidence that those traits predict
21:21success in the workplace and there's
21:22this evidence right well that's not
21:25that's not really the case women have
21:26been in the workplace for what at least
21:28ever since I've been around the
21:31representation of women in the workplace
21:32has been about 50 so we've run the
21:34experiment for a fair fairly reasonable
21:36period of time but not you know
21:37certainly not for centuries let me move
21:39on to another debate that's been very
21:41controversial for you
21:43um
21:43and this is you got in trouble for
21:45refusing to call Trans men and women by
21:48their preferred personal pronouns no
21:50that's not actually true I got in
21:52trouble because I said I would not
21:54follow the compelled speech dictates of
21:57the federal and provincial government I
21:58actually never got in trouble for not
22:00calling anyone anything right that
22:02didn't happen wouldn't follow the change
22:04of law which was designed it was lost no
22:07no well that's what they said it was
22:09designed to do okay you cited freedom of
22:12speech in that why should your right to
22:14freedom of speech Trump a trans person's
22:17right not to be offended
22:21because in order to be able to think you
22:24have to risk being offensive I mean look
22:26at the conversation we're having right
22:27now you know like you're certainly
22:29willing to risk offending me in the
22:31pursuit of Truth why should you have the
22:33right to do that it's been rather
22:34uncomfortable
22:36well I'm I'm very glad I put you on this
22:38call well I'm great
22:40you get my point it's like you're you're
22:43doing what you should do which is
22:45digging a bit to see what the hell's
22:46going on and that is what you should do
22:48but you're exercising your freedom of
22:50speech to certainly risk offending me
22:52and that's fine I think more power too
22:55as far as I'm concerned except you
22:57haven't sat there and
23:00I'm just trying I'll just try to work
23:01that out I mean
23:04ha gotcha you have got me you have got
23:07me I'm trying to work that through my
23:08head yeah yeah it took a while it took a
23:10while yeah it did yeah it took a while
23:11you have voluntary you have voluntarily
23:14come into the studio and agreed to be
23:16questioned a trans person in your class
23:19has come to your class and said they
23:20want to be called that's never happened
23:23and I would call them she so you would
23:24so you've kind of changed your tune no
23:26no I said that right from the beginning
23:28what I said at the beginning was that I
23:30was not going to seed the linguistic
23:33territory to radical leftists regardless
23:36of whether or not it was put in law
23:37that's what I said and then the people
23:39who came after me said well you must be
23:41transphobic and you mistreat a student
23:43in your class it's like I never
23:45mistreated a student in my class I'm not
23:47transphobic and that isn't what I said
23:49well except you've also called trans
23:50campaigners authoritarian haven't you I
23:52mean isn't that well only in the broader
23:54context of my claims that radical
23:56leftist ideologues are authoritarians
23:59which they are saying someone who's
24:00trying to work out their gender identity
24:02who may well have struggled with that
24:04had quite a bit of time you're comparing
24:07them with you know Chairman Mao who no
24:09just these are the deaths of millions of
24:11people even if the activists you know
24:14they're trans people too they have a
24:15right to say these things yeah but they
24:17don't have them right in their whole
24:19Community prepare them to Chairman Mao
24:21you know I could
24:24you know this is grossly insensitive I
24:26didn't compare them to finish it well I
24:28did compare it all through he was an
24:30authoritarian he's a great Winger though
24:31I was comparing them to the left-wing
24:33totalitarians and I do believe they are
24:35left on The Mao millions of people died
24:38right I mean there's no comparison Mao
24:42and a trans activist is there
24:44why not
24:46because trans activists aren't killing
24:47millions of people
24:48the philosophy that's guiding their
24:51utterances is the same philosophy
24:55the consequences are yet
24:58you're saying that trans activists no
25:00could lead to the deaths of millions of
25:02people no I'm saying that the philosophy
25:04that drives their utterances is the same
25:06philosophy that already has driven us to
25:08the deaths of millions okay tell us how
25:10that philosophy
25:11is in any way comparable
25:13sure that's no problem the first thing
25:15is is that the philosophy presumes that
25:17group identity is Paramount
25:20that's the fundamental philosophy that
25:22drove the Soviet Union and Mao's China
25:24and it's the fundamental philosophy of
25:25the left-wing activists its identity
25:27politics doesn't matter who you are as
25:29an individual it matters who you are in
25:31terms of your group identity you're just
25:33saying murder is so to provoke aren't
25:35you I mean provocative
25:37that you hate to be compared to you want
25:40to stir things up I'm only a provocateur
25:42insofar as when I say what I believe to
25:45be true it's provocative I don't provoke
25:48maybe for human set out now and then I'm
25:51not interested in provoking but what
25:53about thinking about you know fighting
25:55and the lobster tell us about the
25:57lobster
25:58well that's quite a segue well the first
26:01chapter I have in my book is called
26:04stand up straight with your shoulders
26:06back and it's an injunction to be
26:08combative
26:10um not least to further your career
26:12let's say but also to adopt
26:15a stance of ready engagement with the
26:18world and to reflect that in your
26:20posture and the reason that I write
26:22about lobsters is because there's this
26:24idea that hierarchical structures are a
26:28sociological construct of the western
26:31patriarchy and that is so untrue that
26:33it's almost unbelievable and I use the
26:36lobster as an example because the
26:37lobster we we divulge from lobsters in
26:41evolutionary history about 350 million
26:43years ago common ancestor and lobsters
26:46exist in hierarchies and they have a
26:48nervous system attuned to the hierarchy
26:50and that nervous system runs on
26:52serotonin just like our nervous systems
26:54do and the nervous system of the lobster
26:56and the human being is so similar that
26:58antidepressants work on lobsters and
27:00it's part of my attempt to demonstrate
27:02that the idea of hierarchy has
27:04absolutely nothing to do with
27:06socio-cultural construction which it
27:08doesn't let me just get this right
27:09you're saying that we should organize
27:11our societies along the lines of the
27:13lobsters
27:14I'm saying that it's inevitable that
27:16there will be continuity in the way that
27:18animals and human beings organize
27:20organize their structures it's it's
27:22absolutely inevitable and there is one
27:24third of a billion years of evolutionary
27:27history behind that right that's that's
27:29so long that a third of a billion years
27:31ago there weren't even trees
27:33it's a long time you have a mechanism in
27:36your brain that runs on serotonin that's
27:38similar to The Lobster mechanism that
27:40tracks your status and the higher your
27:42status the better your emotions are
27:45regulated so as your serotonin levels
27:47increase you feel more positive emotion
27:48and less negative emotion so you think
27:51like the lobsters we're hardwired as men
27:53and women to do certain things to sort
27:55of run along tram lines and there's
27:57nothing we can do about it no I'm not
27:59saying there's nothing we can do about
28:00it because it's like a in a chess game
28:03right there's lots of things that you
28:04can do although you can't break the
28:06rules of the chess game and continue to
28:08play chess biological your biological
28:11nature is somewhat like that is it sets
28:14the rules of the game but within those
28:15rules you have a lot of leeway but the
28:17idea that but
28:19one thing we can't do is say that
28:22hierarchical organization is a
28:24consequence of the capitalist patriarchy
28:26it's like that's patently absurd it's
28:28wrong it's not a matter of opinion it's
28:31seriously wrong
28:33on you just whipping people up into a
28:35state of anger and not at all divisions
28:38between men and women you'd stirring
28:40people up you know you have any critics
28:41of you online get absolutely lambasted
28:45by your followers generally
28:49sorry your critics get lambasted by you
28:51I mean if they're actually responsible
28:53not at all if an academic is going to
28:55come after me and tell me that I'm not
28:56qualified and that I'm not I don't know
28:58what I'm talking about so you're not
29:00serious now quit the abuse quit the
29:03anger Well we'd need some substantial
29:06examples of the abuse and the anger
29:08before I could detail that question
29:09there's a lot of it out there for well
29:11let's take a more General perspective on
29:14that so I've had 25
29:16000 letters since June something like
29:19that from people who told me that I've
29:21brought them back from the brink of
29:22Destruction and so I'm perfectly willing
29:25to put that up against the rather vague
29:27accusations that my followers are making
29:29the lives of people that I've targeted
29:32miserable Jordan Peterson thank you my
29:35pleasure nice

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