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YouTube2Text → Transcripts → 𝔻𝕒𝕪 𝟚: 𝗖𝗵𝗿𝗶𝘀 𝗠𝗰𝗡𝗮𝗯𝗯 ‍⚖️ 𝗖𝗼𝗿𝘁𝗻𝗲𝘆 𝗕𝗲𝗹𝗹 Joint Trial -- 𝗣𝗮𝘂𝘀𝗲𝘀/𝗕𝗿𝗲𝗮𝗸𝘀 𝗘𝗱𝗶𝘁𝗲𝗱 𝗢𝘂𝘁 | Coroner, crime scene

𝔻𝕒𝕪 𝟚: 𝗖𝗵𝗿𝗶𝘀 𝗠𝗰𝗡𝗮𝗯𝗯 ‍⚖️ 𝗖𝗼𝗿𝘁𝗻𝗲𝘆 𝗕𝗲𝗹𝗹 Joint Trial -- 𝗣𝗮𝘂𝘀𝗲𝘀/𝗕𝗿𝗲𝗮𝗸𝘀 𝗘𝗱𝗶𝘁𝗲𝗱 𝗢𝘂𝘁 | Coroner, crime scene — Transcript

by iSwear Kimberley! · 27,447 words · 4,743 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

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0:00i feel so sad for the mother because i
0:03know if it was my little innocent child
0:06it would bring my heart in pieces
0:08because i'm tore up right now
0:09over this because she was an angel
0:13she was a beautiful little angel hi this
0:16is kimberly
0:17first let me say if you want to skip
0:19this approximately two minute
0:21intro i've put a time stamp in the
0:23description box
0:25that'll take you right there thanks much
0:27love and peace
0:29so again hi this is kimberly this is day
0:32two of the trial
0:34for christopher mcnabb and courtney bell
0:36the meth addicted
0:37first cousins that are accused of the
0:402017
0:41murder of their newborn daughter khalia
0:44claire mcnabb
0:45she was only 15 days old i understand
0:49christopher mcnabb is trying to get a
0:51re-trial
0:52neither of their attorneys wanted a
0:54joint trial they said it
0:56confused the information so we'll see if
0:59he gets granted that but
1:01i know some of you don't enjoy these
1:03trial videos
1:04i really followed this case and i wanted
1:07to watch the entire trial
1:09which i haven't done yet so as i'm doing
1:11that i'm editing
1:12the long breaks and pauses out of it so
1:15that it's a smoother
1:16uninterrupted video for those that wish
1:19to watch it with me
1:20but if you don't enjoy this come back
1:23tomorrow
1:23i should have another video of reading
1:26comments to chris
1:27asshat [ __ ] wads i'm also working on
1:31a video about michelle
1:33traconus from the jennifer doulos case
1:36photos [ __ ] dulos who oft himself
1:39but i wanted to do one specifically just
1:42for michelle
1:43and of course i'm always working on
1:45ganon videos too
1:47if there is a specific trial that's
1:49going on currently or coming up
1:52and you want me to post that on my
1:54channel
1:55let me know i'll see if i can find it
1:57and of course
1:58i'll edit out all the [ __ ] so that
2:01it just
2:01flows well and i try to cover
2:04what you guys are interested in but it's
2:07hard
2:08for me to cover too many cases at once
2:10in addition
2:11if there's a lot of other creators
2:14covering it
2:15i don't really see a point in my doing
2:18it
2:18as well so please don't be offended if i
2:21don't cover the case that you've
2:22mentioned
2:23i'll do what i can because i love y'all
2:26but now let's turn our attention to this
2:29trial
2:30sorry i'm blabbering on again but this
2:33is day two
2:34thank you hope you enjoy these types of
2:36videos
2:37if not i'll see you tomorrow much love
2:40and peace
2:40thank you for listening we took the
2:43podium
2:44is that correct yes okay let's play new
2:46jersey
2:49read anything on the television
2:52internet whatever i ask all the jurors
2:54there's no jurors that says yes and
2:56everybody shakes their head no
2:58i heard the complaint that you front
3:00jurors have a hard time
3:01looking i've taken down the podium i
3:04don't know that helps you or doesn't
3:05help you
3:06it doesn't help you so all i can tell
3:09you
3:10is they did not consult any judge or
3:13attorney
3:14when they built this courtroom on our
3:16audition but that's government for you
3:18and so they build it and we're stuck
3:20with it
3:21but so be it i apologize to you for
3:25the length of time you waited back there
3:27it's kind of an oddity
3:29that i have to do things to make sure
3:31the trial runs smoothly
3:33that delays the trial but ultimately now
3:36we're going to be running more smooth
3:37because of the hearings i had to hold
3:40just to talk to the various moving parts
3:42to get it all put together
3:44okay you state my college next witness
3:47state calls mickey kitchens
3:49this the witness that's going to go into
3:52the pictures
3:54yes but not not medical
3:58pictures there won't be anything any of
4:01the pictures we talked about no
4:02they're not going into okay swear or
4:05fern that the testimony about to present
4:06the matter now opinion before this jury
4:07today will be the truth the whole truth
4:09and nothing but the truth so help you
4:10god i do
4:12thank you please state your name for the
4:15record
4:15my name is mickey kitchens
4:19with the newton county sheriff's office
4:22how long have you been employed there
4:23sir
4:24i've been with the sheriff's office for
4:2528 years
4:27and in your time there at the sheriff's
4:30office where have you worked in the
4:32sheriff's office
4:33i've worked everywhere from the jail to
4:36patrol
4:37to narcotics investigations
4:41currently assigned to the corporal over
4:43the crime scene evidence unit as well as
4:45the major felony unit
4:46okay um and
4:50with respect to your crime scene
4:51investigation experience can you tell
4:53the members of the jury how long you've
4:54done that for
4:55we set up the crime scene unit back in
4:582008.
4:59okay and
5:02as part of that establishment of the
5:04crime scene unit did you
5:06go to specific training to learn to be a
5:08crime investigator
5:10there is the state requires that
5:12everybody to obtain the
5:14crime scene tech certification they've
5:16got certain classes that they must
5:18attend
5:19some of those classes are evidence
5:21presentation fingerprint classification
5:24identification and development basic
5:27digital photography blood pattern
5:29analysis
5:31and crime scene class itself and do you
5:34continue
5:35to update your training staying abreast
5:38of all of the new
5:39crime scene investigation techniques i
5:42do the sheriff's office requires that we
5:44all have at least 40 hours
5:46a year training to main
5:49to maintain our certification above that
5:51i've
5:52had additional training through west
5:54virginia university in firearms and tool
5:57marks
5:57and shooting reconstructions and
5:59leadership
6:00as well as some from the national
6:03child advocacy center and the national
6:06forensic education network in
6:10crime scene management as well as
6:12photography
6:14and since 2008 approximately
6:18how many crime scenes have you worked
6:21since 2008 on crime scenes
6:25i've worked thousands of crime scenes
6:27okay and do those
6:28range from a burglary
6:32to a homicide that's correct
6:35and do you have anybody that assists you
6:37in the crime scene unit
6:38i do at the time there's three
6:42assigned to the crime scene unit myself
6:44and two other crime scene techs
6:46who have also had the same basic
6:48training as i've had
6:49in the crime scene and are you equipped
6:51with a area
6:53at the sheriff's office for
6:56your i guess an evidence bay or evidence
7:00room
7:00we do we have an entire section uh that
7:03includes a bay
7:04a processing area as well as an evidence
7:06room itself
7:08do you have all the necessary uh
7:11i guess equipment to conduct crime scene
7:14investigations of the collection of
7:16evidence
7:17the storage of evidence and the
7:21even transportation of the evidence we
7:22do you have a crime scene event
7:25at the time of this incident yes i was
7:26assigned a van at the time
7:29this present time i do not okay now um
7:34when we're talking about collecting
7:36crime scene evidence
7:37does it depend on the type of evidence
7:39does that matter as to how you would
7:41package it or how you would
7:43collect it and seal it sure it does
7:45anything that's going to have
7:47that is a wet item it cannot go in
7:50plastic
7:51because the plastic will cause it to
7:52mold and
7:54virtually leading the evidence is
7:57unuseful
7:58so that would have to go into like a
8:00paper bag something that's breathable
8:03anything like liquids or narcotics or
8:07stuff like that
8:08those would have to go into plastic bags
8:10to keep the
8:11the items from leaking through to
8:14maintain
8:14their integrity now are you familiar
8:17with the packaging that's required to do
8:20any sort of testing at the crime lab
8:22i am and have you had the occasion to
8:24send
8:25numerous pieces of evidence uh to the
8:28crime lab to be tested for various tests
8:30i have okay um is this something i would
8:32tender mickey kitchens as an expert in
8:34crime scene investigation
8:35objection should be allowed to testify
8:37as an expert in that area back to
8:39october the 7th of 2017
8:42um did you have the occasion to be
8:44requested on that date for your services
8:46over at the eagle point mobile home park
8:48i did and can you tell the members of
8:51the jury
8:52generally what you were told or what you
8:55understood when you arrived on the scene
8:56to begin
8:57your job when i was uh contacted by our
9:00dispatch center i was told that it was a
9:02possible kidnapping or missing child
9:05all right when you got out to the scene
9:07that day um were there all
9:09already law enforcement officers there
9:11there was
9:12and did you assist them in looking for
9:15the child or
9:16or was the investigation already past
9:18that point
9:19it was in the process there was an
9:21ongoing
9:23search for to find the child
9:26my primary use there was to obtain the
9:29photographs and process
9:30the the scene itself okay now you said
9:33you photographed
9:34did you photograph the outside of the
9:37trailer there at lot 31
9:39i did it's typical that we would process
9:42the exterior as well as the interior
9:44of any of the residents that we go into
9:47and generally speaking can you describe
9:49what the interior of the residence
9:51looked like what condition was it in
9:53when you went inside
9:54when i went inside the there was
9:58items that had been scattered about
10:03all the bedrooms appear to have been for
10:06lack of better terminology tossed
10:08gone through things have been moved
10:11and did you have an understanding as to
10:13whether or not there were multiple
10:15individuals
10:16inside of that trailer before you got
10:18there i did the uh
10:20with my arrival being briefed on the
10:22incident
10:23i was told that there had already been a
10:25minimum of three searches done inside
10:27the trailer looking for the child
10:29now typically when you're responding to
10:31a crime scene let's say hypothetically
10:34you receive a call along with the
10:36coroner that there's a dead body
10:37there's been a shooting there's been a
10:38stabbing there's been a murder of some
10:40sort
10:41um is it typical that lots of sheriff's
10:44deputies and lots of people are
10:46trampling all through the crime scene
10:48and turning things over and touching
10:50things
10:50no it's not what is common and is the
10:54usual practice
10:55the first responding officers will go in
10:58once they identify
10:59what's what they've got there they'll
11:00clear the residents
11:02looking for any other victims or
11:03suspects
11:05once they once they've cleared the
11:06residence there's no one there sure that
11:08no one else is there
11:09they'll back out of the residence and
11:11hold the residents
11:13not allow anybody in or out until we
11:15arrive
11:16and the purpose of keeping people out of
11:18the crime scene is what
11:20is to maintain the integrity of any
11:22evidence anytime anybody goes into a
11:24crime scene
11:25and they leave a crime scene they change
11:28the dynamics of that crime scene they're
11:30going to introduce some new items into
11:32it and they're going to take some items
11:33away from it
11:34most of the time it's unintentional but
11:36it does happen
11:37and when you say introduce new items
11:39what do you mean by that
11:40it could be anything from uh bringing in
11:43grass
11:44sand dirt could be items that was
11:46outside that gets caught up in the shoes
11:49that get released from the shoe sole
11:51inside the residence
11:52would that also be the case for items
11:55that belong to the human body like hair
11:58or skin cells or dna that you might
12:00leave behind by touching things
12:02that is correct and so um in this
12:04particular situation
12:06when everybody responded from law
12:08enforcement to this trailer
12:10um is that you're understanding that it
12:11wasn't immediately treated as a crime
12:13scene per se
12:14but as an emergency request to locate a
12:17child that was missing
12:18that's correct all right now i'm going
12:20to show you a series of
12:21photographs that i've marked exhibit
12:2421-48
12:34yes ma'am my day
12:38how do you recognize these those are the
12:40photographs that i took uh
12:42upon my arrival at the scene that
12:44morning did they fairly
12:45okay i'm sorry to interrupt you guys
12:47that was that afternoon okay and did
12:48they fairly and accurately depict
12:50the scene at 31 lot 31 eaglemon
12:55park on october the 7th of 2017.
12:59they do evidence
13:02each is admitted into evidence without
13:04objection
13:11can you tell us what's depicted in
13:12states 21 uh that's just the end of the
13:15mobile home
13:16uh as you face from the roadway
13:20it's the big thing the it's got the lot
13:22number on the
13:23it's gonna be on the right hand side of
13:24the of the mobile home okay
13:28and again you can see a little bit of um
13:31what appears to be yellow tape there can
13:32you tell us about it
13:33that would be crime scene tape that's
13:35what our deputies use to
13:37mark off a crime scene as a barrier to
13:40keep people out
13:41uh once they arrive on scene they know
13:43it's secure all right i'm going to show
13:45you states exhibit number 22.
13:46can you tell the members of the jury
13:48what they're looking at here
13:50that's going to be the back side of the
13:51uh of the mobile home
13:53and again you'll see the the yellow
13:55crime scene tape that's on the the porch
13:57area
13:58okay and when you say the back side of
14:00the mobile home um
14:02you actually would come down the road
14:05from 36 up here correct and come down
14:07this way through
14:08that is great and you call it the back
14:12side but are you familiar with the fact
14:13that the mcnabb's called this the front
14:15side of the trailer
14:17there's two there's two there is two
14:18sides to the trailer yes there is
14:21i'm gonna show you states exhibit number
14:2323 can you tell us what's good
14:24there okay that's going to be the far
14:28side of the mobile home the furthest
14:30away from the
14:31roadway now um did you have an
14:34understanding of where this child
14:36this 14 day old child khalia mcnabb was
14:39supposed to be
14:40sleeping where the last place that she
14:42was seen in that trailer
14:44i was i was told it was going to be in
14:46the the master
14:47bedroom or the large bedroom which would
14:49be the end that's closest
14:51uh photographed in this in this picture
14:54was her bassinet for lack of a better
14:57term that she was lying in
14:59um in close proximity to this window and
15:01this air conditioning unit
15:03it was it was uh right up close to the
15:05window
15:06did you see any evidence of forced entry
15:09um in this window
15:11no i did not i'm going to show you
15:14states exhibit number 24. can you tell
15:15us what's expected in 24
15:17okay that's going to be the opposite
15:19side of the trailer again you'll see the
15:21the crime scene tape
15:23um next to these miscellaneous items
15:26that are scattered out there
15:28in the yard there appears to be a
15:31vacant space or a void if you will
15:35underneath those stairs can you tell us
15:37about that that is
15:39exactly what it is it's a void it's a as
15:41a pass through to the underpinning
15:43uh to the mobile home
15:47state's exhibit number 20 uh let me just
15:50back up to 24 did you find any evidence
15:52at all of forced entry in connection
15:55with this door
15:56uh to the back door no i did not and
15:59what about
15:59in connection with the other door the
16:02front door or what you call the back
16:04door
16:05no there was no forced entry notated on
16:07any doors or windows
16:08to the mobile home i'm showing you
16:10state's exhibit number 25
16:12is that just an overall view of that
16:13same back area of the trailer
16:15that's correct states exhibit number 26
16:20when you enter the trailer can you tell
16:21us what we're looking at here
16:23that's entering in through the door uh
16:26the actual main door
16:27entryway that goes into the living room
16:29and dining room area
16:31so as you enter the trailer from that
16:36set of steps that we talked about as
16:37being what the mcnabb's referred to as
16:39their front
16:40and i said the mcnabb's christopher
16:41mcnabb and miss bell referred to as the
16:43front of the trailer
16:44is this the view that you would have as
16:46you walk in that is correct
16:48and to the right would be the kitchen
16:50dining room area is that correct
16:52that's correct and to the left would be
16:53the living room area or den
16:55that's right okay i'm going to show you
16:57states exhibit number 27. can you tell
16:59us what's good
17:0027 that's a picture of the dining room
17:04area
17:05of the mobile home
17:09exhibit number 28
17:14that's just another picture it's picking
17:16up the table as well as part of the
17:18kitchen area
17:21can you tell us what's dependent on
17:22state exhibit number 29
17:25that's the kitchen area of the mobile
17:27home
17:29and state's exhibit number 30.
17:34same it's gonna be just another picture
17:35of the kitchen area
17:37is there anything significant um as far
17:39as you're concerned in your
17:41investigation in the kitchen
17:42or the dining room area no there was any
17:45state's exhibit number 31
17:47can you tell us what's depicted here
17:48that's going to be the pantry
17:50area uh it's also in the kitchen and
17:53again was it you're understanding that
17:54law enforcement officers have searched
17:56all of these areas including
17:57refrigerators stoves pantries drawers
18:00cabinets that's correct
18:04and you tell us what's effective that is
18:06the
18:07living room area it's also showing a uh
18:10what appears to be a gun on the coffee
18:12table okay
18:14now this sofa here is that
18:18sofa significant in this investigation
18:20at all
18:22uh that's from my understanding that's
18:24from where they were sleeping at
18:26they've the parents okay
18:30i'm gonna show you um and this is a
18:34better picture in states exhibit 33 i
18:35wanted you to comment on
18:37where that couch is in relation to the
18:40back porch door
18:42the couch is right here um the main
18:45entryway
18:47will be over here closer to the um
18:49kitchen
18:51right here i'm sorry the screen is
18:53nothing coming up on the screen
18:54i know i was looking for a laser pointer
18:56but that's you can touch it i think
18:57it'll
18:58okay the couch area will be right right
19:01along in
19:02this area clear first
19:06i'm sorry it's clear yes right now
19:10the couch was right here the one where
19:13they used the
19:14the front of what they call the front
19:15door will be over in this area
19:19the bedroom where the children were at
19:22was back here and this right here is the
19:25other door
19:27leading outside
19:31and so from the sofa area where
19:34you indicated mr mcnabb and miss bell
19:37had
19:38slept um
19:42i guess in the hours leading up to
19:44finding their daughter missing
19:45that sofa area is just feet away from
19:49the from either door really yes ma'am
19:52are those the only two ways that
19:54somebody could have entered that
19:56trailer on the morning of the seventh
20:00that's the only two entry doors uh
20:02leading in from the outside
20:04all right can you hit clear our clear
20:06button i don't think works on this
20:08screen
20:08it does now okay i've been told it's
20:10been fixed all right so i'm going to
20:11show you space exhibit number 34 can you
20:12tell us the picture there
20:15that is the hallway leading from the
20:17living room area
20:18back down towards the room where the
20:20children were at
20:23and again there's items that appear to
20:24be on the floor do you have any idea
20:27whether those items were there prior to
20:30the trailer being tossed and looking for
20:32the child i do not know
20:35so from an evidentiary standpoint would
20:38it make sense for you to just start
20:40picking up things and collecting them to
20:41be tested for
20:43hair or fiber or dna or anything like
20:45that no ma'am it would not have
20:47and why is that well the use of so many
20:50people going in and out of the trailer
20:51as i explained before every time someone
20:53comes in or leaves
20:55they change the dynamics with so many
20:57people coming in
20:58searching moving stuff around it's going
21:00to compromise any evidence
21:02that would have been there any
21:04fingerprints that might would have been
21:06there would have already been disturbed
21:07or been
21:09rendered useless uh unidentifiable
21:12um any kind of dna would have
21:16been not been useful because there'd
21:18been so many different profiles
21:20already added to whatever was already
21:22there simply because of so many people
21:24coming in and out okay now specifically
21:27if there were to be a
21:29quote unquote crime scene a specific
21:31area that you would focus on
21:34in this trailer let's say we we had
21:35video camera we knew that a kidnapper
21:37had come in and had grabbed
21:39that child out of that back bedroom what
21:41area would you focus on
21:43anticipating collecting evidence where
21:45the child was at okay
21:46and did you um in your investigation see
21:49any
21:50evidence suggesting that um there was
21:53blood or or anything that needed to be
21:56collected there in the back where the
21:57child was at
21:58no i did not see any kind of signs of
22:00any type of trauma
22:01in that back bedroom where the children
22:03were at in fact i was told that the
22:06child was wrapped in a blanket and even
22:09that blanket was not even
22:10located inside of that bedroom now this
22:13that we're looking at in states exhibit
22:1435 can you tell us the members of the
22:16drew what that is
22:18that's going to be one of the bedrooms
22:20leading down the hallway
22:22i believe that's going to be the smaller
22:24bedroom all right so i'm going to show
22:26you
22:26go back to 34. just to be clear if
22:29you're coming out of the living room
22:32and you're walking down this hallway
22:34here there's there's how many bedrooms
22:35in this house
22:36uh two okay so one is the master bedroom
22:40which is here that's correct and this
22:41other one is
22:43on the left somewhere on this hallway
22:45before you get to the master bedroom
22:46is that correct it'll be right there
22:49okay
22:50so when we're looking at state exhibit
22:5135 if you open that door to go to that
22:53bedroom
22:55what kind of items were in there uh
22:57there was a mattress
22:59miscellaneous clothing items um
23:03just just just a lot of different items
23:05in there
23:08that appears to be just food and that's
23:11great that's also a picture of that same
23:13bedroom
23:14you can see the mattress that was right
23:16here that was seen in the other picture
23:20the rest of the floor has just got
23:22miscellaneous items uh including cheetos
23:25or what appears to be cheetos laying in
23:26the floor okay i'm going to show you
23:28space exhibit number 37.
23:30by the way backing up to that bedroom
23:32anything significant as a crime scene
23:34investigator about that room
23:35no there was not all right now i'm
23:37showing you 37 what's depicted in this
23:40that again is the hallway showing the
23:46back door or the other exit doors right
23:49here
23:49there's a bathroom right here this right
23:52here is the
23:53the master okay so with that bedroom
23:56that we were just looking at be straight
23:58to the left then where this photograph
23:59was being taken from
24:01be back down closer to the living room
24:03area but yes
24:05all right um i'm going to show you six
24:07exhibit number
24:0838. can you tell us 1538
24:13that is a uh excuse me that's a picture
24:16of the uh of the restroom
24:18again can you describe the general
24:21condition of that restroom
24:23it was a it was very messy hadn't missed
24:25a lot of different items laid in the
24:26floor
24:27um there was just stuff scattered
24:30all about in inside the bathroom area
24:33did you see any
24:35anything suspicious that you needed to
24:38collect as
24:39as far as any evidence nothing that drew
24:42my attention to it
24:436 39 can you tell us what to put in this
24:46photograph
24:48okay that is the the master bedroom
24:50that's where the
24:51i was told the children were sleeping
24:54okay
24:54um now the baby was sleeping where in
24:59this room
25:00from my understanding uh the baby was
25:03sleeping in the sleeper
25:05which was right here but i should know
25:08that
25:09that is not the original position
25:12that it was in or would have been in due
25:14to the fact that it had already been
25:15searched and things have
25:17been moved several times okay and is it
25:19possible that this is not the same
25:21sleeper um that the child was sleeping
25:25in
25:25it is quite possible yes okay so that
25:28sleeper
25:28can you draw a circle on where the
25:30sleeper was from your understanding
25:33from my understanding uh the sleeper was
25:36gonna be somewhere
25:38in the area of the of the bed okay right
25:42around
25:42long in there somewhere okay but you
25:44weren't there
25:45that's that's correct i was not there so
25:47in order to know exactly where the
25:48sleeper was we
25:49should rely on the testimony of those
25:51who saw it there that it was not it was
25:53moved or not there when you got there
25:55that is correct
25:56i'm showing you space exhibit number 40.
25:59can you tell us what's expected there
26:00again that's just another another
26:02overall picture of the
26:04of the master bedroom and these uh this
26:08item here that silver in color can you
26:09tell us what that is
26:10oh that's a a tub that they had i
26:14believe it was clothing in
26:17michigan exhibit number 41. can you tell
26:19us the picture there
26:21again it's the master bedroom um you see
26:24a fan there
26:25there's another um i believe that's a
26:28chair
26:30that would be the sleeper that the child
26:32was in it could be yes
26:33okay i'm going to show you states
26:35exhibit
26:37can number tell us to pick it there
26:42again that's just another picture of the
26:44of the master
26:47you'll find that a lot of times i'll
26:48move i'll take the picture of a room
26:50i'll take it in sections
26:52that way i make sure i get everything
26:53inside that room all right
26:57again you see the the silver tub there
26:59again it also
27:00is just another picture of the of the
27:02master bedroom
27:03again did you see any um thing item
27:06there that you believe needed to be
27:08collected that might
27:09help you solve the
27:12question of how this child left that
27:15home no i did not
27:16states exhibit number 44 can you tell us
27:18what's affected there
27:20uh again it's the master bedroom it's
27:22from the uh
27:24side closest to the air conditioner
27:27facing back out towards the hallway
27:32states exhibit number 45 what's depicted
27:34here
27:36that is uh one of the pictures of the
27:37underpinning of the mobile home
27:41so would it be possible for a person to
27:43crawl under there
27:44yes it would be would it be possible for
27:47a person to store something under there
27:48yes it would be i'll show you states
27:50exhibit number 46 can you tell us
27:53in this photograph
27:57yeah it's just another another picture
27:59of the underpinning
28:07yes that's just another picture of the
28:08underpinning
28:11and states exhibit number 47 can you
28:14tell us what to pick
28:16that's a close-up picture of the
28:19air conditioner that was in the master
28:22bedroom where the children were sleeping
28:24and stage exhibit number 48 can you tell
28:26us
28:28that's another air conditioner that's uh
28:30on the on one of the sides of the house
28:32and i noticed that there's some plywood
28:34it looks like to repair
28:36perhaps a broken window that's correct
28:38and did that again appear to be
28:41in any way indicative of any sort of
28:44forced entry into that area
28:46no in fact it appeared that it had been
28:48there for quite some time
28:54now were you actually able to collect
28:58the
29:02bedding if you will or part of that
29:04sleeper
29:07i was
29:14or 63.
29:18do you recognize state's exhibit number
29:1963
29:23do you need
29:33and did you have an opportunity to come
29:35to the da's office in the last couple
29:37weeks
29:38and go through all the evidence and cut
29:40it
29:42so we actually you or investigator
29:44alexander actually
29:46cut these taped bags to pull out the
29:48items to show me is that correct that is
29:50correct part of that they were sealed
29:51that's correct okay do you recognize it
29:53don't show it to the jury
29:56do you recognize that i do okay
29:59that is the line down alpha
30:02exhibit number reported 63 in the
30:04evidence
30:10[Applause]
30:11so this actually was the um
30:14what now that's the the baby lining that
30:17was in the carrier
30:19okay and was this uh supposed to be the
30:22carrier the sleeper that the baby was
30:23sleeping in
30:24from what i was told yes okay
30:28and um you indicated something about a
30:32blanket earlier can you tell me again
30:33what that was
30:34i was told that the uh the towel was uh
30:37kind of wrapped in a blanket
30:39kind of swallowed in a blanket with a
30:42light blue
30:43blanket and was it your understanding
30:47that several people had touched the
30:48carrier and touched this
30:50uh liner there for in searching for the
30:52baby
30:53there was in fact the uh one of our
30:55canine teams used the uh
30:57the liner as a scent uh for their
30:59canines to do the track
31:01okay um so
31:05now i'm going to focus your attention on
31:07the following day
31:09on the 8th where you called out to the
31:13wooded area there between the trailer
31:15park and henderson mill
31:16i was and can you tell the members of
31:20the jury
31:20what it was that you were responding to
31:24i had been contacted by the road
31:26supervisor
31:27asking me to be back in route to that
31:29area that they had located some items
31:33and they wanted me to come collect those
31:35items that they had found
31:37backing up to the seventh he referred to
31:39the k-9 that was out tracking
31:41did you have the occasion to receive
31:43some evidence from
31:44deputy chris bowles uh yes i did and
31:47what was that
31:48uh he had located on the track he had
31:50located a pair of shoes
31:52michigan space exhibit number 65
31:57do you recognize 665.
32:10yes these are the shoes that i collected
32:13from investigative bowls
32:15okay and um you honored this one for 65
32:19in the evidence
32:20[Applause]
32:22it's been without objection
32:28you know if these um shoes had any
32:30significance whatsoever
32:32to this investigation or this case when
32:34they were collected
32:35no i did not okay
32:42now when you went out on the 8th what
32:45were you shown by deputies that were
32:48standing by
32:50i was they had located a i believe it
32:52was a
32:53jacket and some other items
32:56on a in a wooded area on a walk-in path
33:00that goes between the mobile home park
33:02and hendersonville road
33:04now some of these photographs have
33:06already been
33:07tendered into evidence i believe states
33:1049 through 54 but i'm going to
33:12show them to you um this is states exit
33:15number 49
33:16is that the jacket that you're referring
33:18to that is correct
33:21and state exhibit number 50.
33:24that's a close-up of the of the jacket
33:29exhibit number 51
33:32when we removed the jacket there were
33:35some
33:36items underneath it uh some drug
33:38paraphernalia as well as a uh
33:40empty wallet okay and when you say drug
33:43paraphernalia um what are you referring
33:45to specifically
33:46the
33:49this item right here okay that's a
33:52smoking device
33:52that's correct and were there also um
33:55rolling papers
33:57yes there was and they depicted number
34:0052
34:01yes ma'am let me zoom out a little bit
34:07okay and are rolling papers commonly
34:11used as well
34:12to smoke drugs that is correct i'm going
34:14to show you face exhibit number 53 after
34:16collecting these items
34:18um did you go to another area there in
34:22the woods
34:22for another item that was suspicious i
34:24did while i was out on
34:26collecting those items uh sergeant
34:28dickerson had received information that
34:30they had found a
34:31something else just a little further
34:33down in the wooded area
34:35he went down when he saw that there was
34:38an item there
34:39he radioed back to the deputy that was
34:41standing by with me
34:43requesting that i come to his location
34:45when i get finished right there
34:48and it states except number 53 do you
34:51recognize that
34:53i do that was the uh the item that
34:56sergeant dickerson
34:57had been pointed out to
35:00and station pivot number 54.
35:04that's a close-up of that bag
35:08okay now behind um this bag in this area
35:11here can you tell the members of the
35:12jury what that is
35:13that is a log underneath that log
35:17there's a kind of a depression
35:20in the in the ground right there almost
35:23like a little tunnel like area
35:25the bag was at this point about two
35:28quarters of the way
35:30underneath that in that hole
35:34i'm going to show you states exhibits
35:35number 49
35:38i'm sorry 55
35:43through 60 57 has already
36:11do you recognize these photographs
36:1555 through 60 but 57's already been
36:19tendered i'm just going to show it to
36:24them
36:26yes i do how do you recognize them those
36:29are the photographs i took
36:30of the bag in sequence of
36:35figuring out what was inside of the bag
36:39now who was there with you when you were
36:41doing this by the way
36:42uh sergeant dickerson was standing by
36:44with me
36:46at this point in time did you know
36:48whether or not there was a body inside
36:49the bag
36:50no i did not
36:54so can you tell the members of the jury
36:55how you went about uh i guess
36:58looking inside the bag well what i did
37:01was
37:01when i first got there and saw that
37:03there was a bag
37:04i used my county-issued phone to get a
37:07gps
37:08coordinates of the exact location of the
37:10bag
37:11uh then i pulled the bag out just a
37:13little bit opened it up so i could
37:15see what was in there and remove the
37:18items
37:18that i could remove just to determine
37:21what was inside
37:22the bag now how are you able to
37:25uh determine exact gps coordinates
37:28i use the my camera like i said my
37:29county issued phone i used the compass
37:32uh app on it which also gives me the
37:36longitude latitude location
37:39and did you also uh do that on the other
37:42items that were found the camouflage
37:44jacket and the drug paraphernalia yes i
37:46did and so did you note
37:48both of those gps locations on
37:51a in your report i did
37:56michelle space exhibit number
38:0262.
38:07do you recognize state 62
38:12yes i do what is it that is a blow up of
38:16the uh
38:17of the map showing the locations of the
38:20uh residents as well as the items found
38:23as well as the bag
38:25and it's got the gps coordinates for the
38:27uh for the items of the jacket
38:29as well as the bag your honor to offer
38:31states exhibit number 62 in evidence
38:40all right i'm going to try to back this
38:43up so you can see it tell me if you can
38:46okay not a lot of room here can you see
38:47it can you tell the members of the jury
38:49uh where lot 31 is in the eagle point
38:52mobile home park
38:56because if you want to get up and move
38:58over here and stand you're welcome too
39:00or actually judge we could probably move
39:02a little bit
39:03well a few attorneys need to get up and
39:06move well you can see it you may do
39:08something
39:09they can see it now okay live 31 is
39:13marked as residents it's gonna be where
39:15this mark is right here
39:17okay and then um where is the entryway
39:20to this trail that we've been talking
39:21about
39:23the each way to the trail yes if you
39:27it's gonna be right along in here okay
39:30so um
39:31when you went out that day to collect
39:33these items on the day of the seventh
39:35were you at the residence processing
39:36that
39:36that's great and on the day of the eight
39:38did you go to the residence and then go
39:40down the trail or did you go to
39:41henderson
39:42mill i went to hendersonville okay and
39:44from henderson mill uh which items did
39:46you go to first
39:47i went up to the right off of the the
39:50power line
39:50easement to the islands fam which is
39:53located right here
39:54okay and that would be where the
39:55camouflage jacket and the hookah and the
39:58rolling papers and the empty wallet were
40:00found that is correct
40:01and then um this blue and red bag that
40:04we just
40:05have been looking at you said that that
40:07was located where
40:08it's located a little bit further down
40:10it's going to be the the opposite
40:12or the other mark right on here closer
40:14to the henderson mill road
40:15okay and is this somebody's private
40:17residence here
40:18it is okay um so technically where that
40:21item was found was that on somebody
40:22else's
40:23property i believe it was yes okay
40:28and i know you don't have the exact
40:30measurement of the distance between
40:31these
40:31two but is that a long hike or just a
40:34little walk that's less than 50 feet
40:36less than 50 feet okay
40:45now tell um tell us again how did you
40:47remove the items
40:48from the bag when i got there like i
40:51said i took the jet i got the gps
40:53coordinates uh then i pulled the bag out
40:55where i could
40:56get a hold of the lid of the or the
40:57mouth of the bag and opened it up
40:59and that's when i just started pulling
41:00the items out that i could reach one at
41:02a time
41:04your honor i can't recall if i tendered
41:0655 through
41:0860 but if i haven't i don't know no
41:10objection
41:11it's all each is a minute without
41:12objection 55
41:14through what 60 57's already been
41:17admitted okay
41:18may i publish sometimes all right i'm
41:20gonna show you 55
41:23can you tell us what that is that is a
41:25picture of the bag
41:26as well as the items that was removed
41:29from that bag
41:30that's laying on that log and what were
41:34those
41:35items on that log those items there was
41:37a
41:38a camouflage shirt some
41:42blue and black shorts and a blue shirt
41:46okay and i'm going to show you states
41:48exhibit number 56
41:49can you tell us what's depicted in 56.
41:55that's just a close-up of those same
41:57three items
42:02and i'm going to show you in those items
42:05where were they
42:06like this is a bag a drawstring bag
42:09that's correct it's a drawstring bag
42:10those items were
42:11at the very top of that bag like just
42:15just underneath where it would close at
42:17okay um
42:18were those the only items that were in
42:20the bag no they were not
42:21were those neatly folded and placed in
42:25the bag
42:25no they were just kind of like they were
42:27just shoved in the back
42:29exhibit number 57 can you tell us what's
42:32depicted at 57
42:33that is the picture a close-up picture
42:35of the bag
42:37as well as a light blue blanket
42:41or at that time i was not sure it was a
42:43blanket but a light blue cloth
42:45that was inside the bag now
42:48states exhibit number 58 can you tell us
42:51what we're looking at
42:52in 58 right here
42:56you'll see an impression or a depression
42:58into the ground
42:59almost like a little cave the bag was
43:02pushed up underneath or inside of that
43:04hole
43:08was the bag uh in plain view or was it
43:10was there debris on the top of the bag
43:12you know
43:13there was some debris on top of the bag
43:15when that when it was located
43:18in your honors to hear that he didn't
43:20locate the jacket he's not aware of the
43:22condition when it was located
43:23the jacket
43:31by the person who actually found it so
43:33i'm going to allow the answer
43:37did that bag appear to you that had been
43:40out there for
43:41weeks or months no it did not all right
43:44i'm going to show you states exhibit
43:45number
43:4659 um
43:49can you tell us what we're looking at in
43:50states exhibit number 59
43:52once i felt uh once i removed those
43:55other items
43:56i got down to that blue cloth uh it was
44:00wrapped so tightly i could not
44:02get it loose to see what was inside of
44:03it but i could feel that there was
44:05something inside of that cloth
44:07that time i used my pocket knife to cut
44:10a small hole
44:11inside that claw when i moved the cloth
44:13back
44:14that's when i found saw the the head and
44:17the
44:18some hair at that time i instructed
44:21our sergeant dickerson to get everyone
44:24away from the scene right there and go
44:26ahead and block it off and notify
44:29our coroner
44:33did that appear to be
44:37the head of an adult or a child it was a
44:39head of a child
44:41an infant yes show any states within
44:44number 60 can you tell us what's
44:46depicted in 60
44:47that's going to be a little bit closer
44:49up of that
44:51impression that the or the depression
44:53that the bag was in
44:55um and when you're calling a depression
44:58um just going back to state's exhibit
45:00number 58
45:01does that look like you know somebody
45:02got a shovel and dug
45:04a grave or dug a hole for this infant or
45:07does it appear that that naturally
45:09occurred and somebody used that to hide
45:12them
45:12it appeared i'm sorry it appeared to be
45:14natural um
45:16there was not any loose dirt or anything
45:18laying around that
45:19around the entrance to that hole
45:27you indicated that you called for the
45:28coroner and you had the scene
45:31i guess mark was a crime scene did you
45:34remove
45:35what you believed to be an infant did
45:37you remove that body from the bag
45:39i did not once we identified that that
45:42was
45:42more than likely going to be a body of
45:46what we believed
45:46was going to be a body we stopped at
45:48that point
45:50and waited on the corner to get there
45:54and were you certain that the child was
45:57not alive at that time
45:58i was yes was there blood on that or
46:00what appeared to be blood or rush stain
46:02on that
46:03blanket on the blanket i do not know
46:06because i did not pull the blanket out
46:08there was some stains on some of the
46:10clothing
46:11that was uh removed from the bag
46:29and all of those items that you
46:32collected the shoes
46:33um the sleeper and the bag that the baby
46:37or the infant was found and all of those
46:39were
46:40sent to the gbi prime line that is
46:43correct
46:44thank you those are all the questions i
46:45have at this time josh thank you
46:48good morning good morning sir how are
46:51you
46:52pretty good yes ms don qualified you as
46:56an expert
46:56in crime scene investigation um you've
46:59been doing that for newton county for
47:01how long
47:01since 2008 and you have continuing
47:04education requirements is that right
47:06that's correct and you're up to date on
47:07all those that's correct
47:08um when a crime scene needs to be
47:12analyzed processed recovered things of
47:15that nature they turn to you
47:16that's right they uh they usually when
47:18it only only any crime scene
47:22they request our my unit to respond okay
47:24so
47:25optimally if a body is found inside of a
47:28house
47:29optimally for you it would be seen from
47:32the outside
47:33that seemed to be taped off and you
47:34would just go in you'd be the first or
47:36really only person to go
47:38in there because you would know that the
47:39scene wasn't tainted or messed with
47:41right
47:42ideally yes all right and kind of the
47:44opposite happened in this case
47:46this was treated as a an emergency
47:48situation because they were actually
47:49looking for the child
47:50so lots of people in the trailer we
47:53don't have a list of who was in the
47:55trailer
47:56um so we really you really can't do a
47:58whole lot as far as fingerprints
48:01fibers and things like that with this
48:02scene is that fair that's crazy like i
48:04said
48:05due to the fact that so many different
48:06people they've been in looking into the
48:08residence looking for the child uh any
48:11evidence that was there would have been
48:12already been compromised
48:13okay do you call recall approximately
48:16what time
48:17and day day and time you did the
48:20photographs and processed
48:21the trailer in this case
48:29give me just a moment i think i've got
48:30that notated
48:37no i don't have my time notated down
48:38that i arrived on scene but it was going
48:40to be in the afternoon
48:41it's going to be after lunch uh on the
48:437th that is correct saturday the 7th
48:45uh were the photos taken on that same
48:47day that's right that's right it was
48:49same time as i arrived i immediately
48:51started taking photographs
48:53and when you you noted the the messiness
48:56of the trailer
48:57um you again you understood that people
49:00had been
49:00tearing the trailer apart basically to
49:02look for the child that's that's correct
49:03okay
49:06it's some point probably that day you
49:10had to suspect that there was a possible
49:11crime scene there
49:13right that something bad had happened
49:15there in the trailer area
49:17we knew that the child had not been
49:18located so at that time
49:20like saying my original call was a
49:22missing possibly kidnapped child
49:24okay um if a person is shot
49:28a lot of times there'll be blood that
49:30comes like spotted on the wall
49:31there'll be a blood pattern things of
49:33that nature right that is correct yes um
49:35if a person's stabbed the same thing
49:36might happen
49:37correct um any time a person is injured
49:39and there is blood
49:41or there is pushing um you know
49:44things hitting walls things hitting
49:46furniture those are things that your
49:47things that you're going to look for
49:48when trying to determine
49:50what happened in a crime scene that's
49:51correct so
49:54that back bedroom where the children
49:56were sleeping you attempted
49:58at least to determine if there was
50:00evidence of a crime
50:02that's correct i went back there once a
50:04search warrant was uh secured
50:07i did enter the residence and i did go
50:09back and look through that back bedroom
50:12myself looking for items of interest
50:15okay and you didn't find anything no i
50:17did not
50:19do you have uv lights capability of
50:22using uv lights to determine
50:24the presence of materials human
50:26materials
50:28on surfaces at this present time we do
50:31now yes
50:32did you at that time at that time i did
50:34not believe we did okay so you weren't
50:36able to check
50:37um for presence of
50:40semen other human materials in that
50:43general area is that fair
50:44by using the forensic light sources no i
50:47was not all right
50:48now uh luminol is a
50:52chemical agent that uh expresses the
50:55presence of blood is that fair
50:56it's a blood detection agent yes sir it
50:58actually picks up on the iron inside the
51:00blood
51:00but you are able to determine whether
51:03there is blood
51:04on a surface that cannot be seen with
51:06the eye by using luminol
51:08that's correct all right did you have
51:09luminol available to you in 2017
51:12uh we did not use luminol uh at the time
51:14we were using a
51:15similar product as called blue star okay
51:18so
51:19all right 2017 you had blue star that's
51:21correct which is a uh does it also
51:22detect
51:23iron in the blood same same process as
51:26the um
51:27as the there's the luminol yes were you
51:29able to use that in this case
51:30no no i did not all right were you able
51:34to
51:34in other words you had the ability we
51:36had to yes sir we had the ability okay
51:38but you did not in this particular case
51:39that's correct we did not all right
51:41the um
51:48do you still have the bag i'm sorry you
51:50saw the bags with the
51:52bag with the blanket in there no sure no
51:54sure
51:55all right back with the what the cover
52:01to the best of your knowledge this was
52:03the cover
52:05of the sleeper that khalia was sleeping
52:08in
52:09the night she disappeared that's what i
52:11was told yes okay
52:12and have you said have you checked this
52:14with your the blue star
52:16to determine if there was any blood on
52:17it no i did not
52:19that item was removed from the residents
52:22prior to my arrival on scene
52:24like i said for the scent for the
52:25canines okay and
52:28was this item held by law enforcement
52:31from the time they got it for use with
52:32the canines until
52:34you received it for evidence yes it was
52:36um
52:37did you send this to the gba crime lab
52:39to determine
52:40whether there was semen or blood or
52:43anything on this particular item
52:45that item i do not believe went if you
52:47give me just a second i will check and
52:58see
53:25i do not have listed in the chain of
53:26custody where that item went to the
53:28crime lab
53:29okay so on the seventh
53:34your inspection for
53:37the crime scene is basically visual you
53:40look to see if you saw anything
53:42that resembled blood and you didn't see
53:44anything so that's
53:46all that was done on the 7th that's
53:48correct did you ever go back later
53:50and check again with blue star or any
53:53other use any other method
53:54to determine whether there was a crime
53:56scene no i did not
54:00you received information or the state
54:01received information
54:03several months later that there was a
54:04possible
54:09stain of some sort at the trailer is
54:10that do you recall that that's correct
54:12uh and you actually did go out several
54:14months later and try to determine if you
54:16could find
54:17evidence of a crime scene in the trailer
54:20right but i did not use blue star
54:22on that item at that item was used with
54:25a
54:25hemostic which is also a blood detection
54:30system that item did show a
54:35positive a positive reaction uh
54:38to the to the chem or to the test
54:41okay um what was that item uh it
54:45actually was the floor
54:46okay and did you submit that item to the
54:49gbi for testing
54:50we did and uh that came back as being
54:53negative for blood
54:54i believe it did i have not seen the
54:56results uh the gbi results but i believe
54:58it did come back negative for blood okay
55:00so it would have been a false positive
55:02on that test
55:02all right so between the 7th of october
55:06when this child was missing and now
55:10you have not been able to determine that
55:12there is a crime scene
55:14inside the trailer based on any
55:16particular piece of evidence
55:18nothing uh nothing physical
55:21such as any type of blood patterns um
55:25anything like that no i was not and
55:27you've done your best to look for it and
55:28try
55:29absolutely okay now um
55:34you noticed that there was you you could
55:36not tell any evidence of forced entry
55:38into the trailer
55:39that's correct um if the doors were
55:41unlocked at the time someone were to
55:43come in you would not see
55:44signs of forced entry is that fair that
55:46is correct okay
55:50now the next day october 8th
55:53you received information that some items
55:55have been found out in the woods that's
55:57correct
55:58and the first thing was a camo jacket
56:00with
56:01some kind of a smoking device and some
56:03kind of smoking papers
56:05and empty wallet that is correct
56:08as you were on that scene you determined
56:11that there was another scene nearby
56:13i was told yes okay now
56:16were the items the camo jacket were they
56:19tested for
56:21bodily fluids blood anything of that
56:24nature
56:24there was no blood noted on it it would
56:27have been difficult to test for anything
56:29else due to the fact that the
56:30items were wet okay would the gbi
56:34have been able to dry those items out
56:36test for
56:37the presence of dna identifying
56:39information
56:40and give you a report if it would have
56:43been submitted
56:44probably yes okay and was that were
56:46those items submitted to the gbi
56:48those items no they were not okay now
56:56um
57:11okay so um the residents we're talking
57:14about again is this trailer here
57:15that is great um and the trail comes
57:19up beside this little shed here um and
57:21there's a gap in the fence
57:23right here that leads to the easement is
57:25that right that's correct
57:26and there are power lines right here
57:28that and that's what the easement is for
57:30the power
57:30company has an easement to allow access
57:32to the power line that's correct right
57:34so um when you arrived on the scene the
57:38second day on october 8th
57:40you came from henderson mill that's
57:42correct all right and so the first item
57:44was off the main easement that's right
57:47and that's the camo jacket
57:48off the main easement tour and if you're
57:51looking from henderson mill it was on
57:52the left side that's correct and it was
57:54approximately
57:56do you recall approximately how far it
57:58was into the woods it was just right at
58:00the
58:00edge of the wood line okay um this
58:03dot appears to be a little bit further
58:05in it was a little closer to the edge of
58:06the wood line that's right is that fair
58:09all right um and then the bag that you
58:12found was
58:12uh down in this area that's correct now
58:15from this easement from this
58:19this path here to get to this there's
58:22significant wooded area
58:24if you went straight from the easement
58:25to the bag
58:27there was there's a lot of woods that's
58:28right on this side there are fewer woods
58:30but there's some woods
58:31that's right and then but from henderson
58:33mill there's a straight path into that
58:36area that's right
58:37now this area right here is in indeed
58:40not just the indention where the hole is
58:42but there's also a big indention like
58:45it's been cut out at some point in the
58:47past
58:47or water has run through or something
58:50but it
58:51something it goes down into a small
58:53valley a
58:5420-foot um i guess piece cut out of the
58:58land and then that log is kind of laying
59:02over
59:02the in the depression in the ground
59:05that's correct
59:06and then the hole is in the log it's
59:07right underneath the log okay
59:12the easiest way to get to that path is
59:15through
59:16from henderson mill straight to the back
59:18that's the shortest path yes the
59:19shortest and easiest because there are
59:21no woods in the lab that's correct
59:26now
59:30you wanted to preserve the scene as best
59:33you could
59:33that's fair that's correct but civilians
59:36had found the bag
59:37that's correct um you don't know what
59:38they did necessarily with it other than
59:40just what they told you
59:41that's right um and again
59:45if it was in a perfect world you would
59:47have known where the bag was you would
59:48have
59:49you know dissected the scene in a in a a
59:52forensic manner
59:53rather than just you know doing whatever
59:55some a civilian would have done with
59:57that's correct
59:58but you couldn't so all you've got
59:59you've got a bag partially
1:00:01coming out of that hole is that fair
1:00:04that's correct yes
1:00:05all right so you were able to once you
1:00:08loosen the string
1:00:09you were able to pull a few items out
1:00:11that's right and one of those was a
1:00:13camouflage
1:00:14t-shirt uh yes it was camouflage t-shirt
1:00:16uh had the varsity right on the front of
1:00:18it okay
1:00:19uh was that male or female do you call
1:00:21the size uh give me just a second i
1:00:23wrote the size down
1:00:28it was a size large it was large all
1:00:31right
1:00:31and there was a pair of blue boxer
1:00:34shorts uh black and blue yes black and
1:00:36blue
1:00:36and i've what's the third item uh it was
1:00:38a blue starter
1:00:40shirt okay and do you call the size on
1:00:42that
1:00:48uh it was a medium okay and what about
1:00:50the size
1:00:51of the boxer shorts
1:00:56they were also medium okay now um
1:01:00you noted that on some of those items
1:01:02you visually detected
1:01:04the presence of possible blood that's
1:01:06correct and
1:01:08on uh did you
1:01:11use any type of um enhancement method to
1:01:14determine whether
1:01:15there was the presence of blood on those
1:01:17no i was just going strictly off of the
1:01:18awful visual what appeared to be a
1:01:22a blood stain okay um
1:01:25and in this case it would be important
1:01:28to know
1:01:29whose blood that was that's correct
1:01:32whether it was
1:01:32um the child's blood or whether it
1:01:35possibly was the perpetrator's blood
1:01:37that's correct
1:01:38and you did submit that to the crime lab
1:01:40that's correct
1:01:41but you only did that two weeks ago they
1:01:43were only submitted two weeks ago yes
1:01:45okay the results from that
1:01:49came back inconclusive is that correct
1:01:51i've not seen the results
1:01:56is there a investigative reason why
1:01:59those items weren't submitted
1:02:00until two weeks ago no there's not
1:02:05typically the obviously it just got
1:02:07overlooked
1:02:08on that one unfortunately we're all
1:02:11human we all make mistakes
1:02:13and that one just got overlooked thank
1:02:15you sir
1:02:17mr frost thank you just a couple
1:02:20questions
1:02:21investigative kitchens how are you doing
1:02:22good um
1:02:25obviously i represent miss bell mr
1:02:28carter represents mr mcnabb
1:02:30uh just to keep things straight i'm just
1:02:32going to go
1:02:33unfortunately i'm gonna have to
1:02:34duplicate a couple things but i'm gonna
1:02:35boil it down
1:02:36real quick um the items that were found
1:02:40in the bag
1:02:41the i guess the gym bag the drawstring
1:02:43bag those
1:02:45you said were not compromised
1:02:48no i did not say they were not
1:02:49compromised
1:02:51they were located inside the bank
1:02:55and they were found by civilians
1:03:00so not the ideal situation that's
1:03:02correct
1:03:04and i think like i said i'm going to try
1:03:07to zip through this but i want
1:03:09the jury to be clear and the record for
1:03:11miss bell
1:03:12um
1:03:16you were were you ever able to determine
1:03:19who the items in the bag belonged to no
1:03:21i was not all right so certainly
1:03:23nothing pointed to my client i did not
1:03:25identify who
1:03:26who any of the property belong to okay
1:03:28as far as the clothing items
1:03:30all right and
1:03:34so there essentially is no crime scene
1:03:37in the trailer
1:03:39exactly there was no signs of any type
1:03:40of trauma in the trailer that's correct
1:03:42all right and there is no dna
1:03:46fingerprints or any physical evidence
1:03:48correct all right
1:03:49thank you very much sir lazan
1:03:53investigator corporal kitchens inside
1:03:56that trailer
1:03:57you were asked just a few moments ago on
1:03:59cross-examination
1:04:00um whether you performed any testing to
1:04:02determine um
1:04:03if there was a presence of semen or
1:04:06bodily fluids or dna
1:04:08would you expect to find the defendant
1:04:10mcnabb's
1:04:13dna semen bodily fluids in that trailer
1:04:16where he lived
1:04:17sure along with fingerprints or anything
1:04:19else that's where he lived that's where
1:04:21the
1:04:22his items are going to be found there
1:04:24and in fact if he um in an interview
1:04:26told
1:04:27investigator alexander that he and
1:04:29courtney had sex on that couch
1:04:31um just hours before the baby went
1:04:34missing
1:04:35then you certainly would expect it's not
1:04:37beyond the realm of possibility that
1:04:39there would be his dna there
1:04:41in that house that's correct and as
1:04:43courtney's dna should be in that house
1:04:45too she lives there right
1:04:46that's correct all right now you were
1:04:49asked whether or not you checked for
1:04:50blood or semen on the baby liner
1:04:53was it apparent to you that there was
1:04:54not blood stains on the baby liner i did
1:04:56not see any type of stains
1:04:58of any type okay um now semen on the
1:05:02baby liner
1:05:03this was not a sexual assault
1:05:04investigation was it no it was a missing
1:05:07or dismissing or kidnapped child case at
1:05:09the beginning
1:05:10you didn't learn from or did you learn
1:05:12from investigator alexander
1:05:14um and tommy davis the coroner that
1:05:16after the autopsy
1:05:18was learned that there was some sexual
1:05:19assault on this baby did you no i was
1:05:21not
1:05:22so would you would you check to see if
1:05:24there was semen on a baby liner
1:05:26unless it's a sexual assault
1:05:27investigation there would be no reason
1:05:29to no
1:05:30but since this is the child that belongs
1:05:32to these two defendants
1:05:33would it not be expected that their
1:05:36trace
1:05:37dna would be on that blanket if it were
1:05:38to be if there were any dna to be found
1:05:41most logically putting on our common
1:05:42sense hat and putting off crime scene
1:05:44hat would it not be
1:05:45very logical that their dna would be on
1:05:47that line sure just like my dna would be
1:05:49found at my house
1:05:50so that evidence would neither confirm
1:05:52that they were responsible for their
1:05:54child's death
1:05:54nor would it exclude them that's correct
1:05:59now the camo jacket and the hookah and
1:06:02the rolling papers and the wallet and
1:06:03everything that was found out there
1:06:05in the woods and even with the with the
1:06:07shoes that were found the day before
1:06:11if the defendant in an interview with
1:06:13investigator alexander
1:06:14connects himself to all of those items
1:06:18would it not be something that you would
1:06:20expect that you would find
1:06:22again his evidence on that's correct
1:06:24would it be necessary to test those
1:06:26items to determine who brought them
1:06:28to the woods if the defendant admitted
1:06:31mcnabb
1:06:32admitted to investigator alexander that
1:06:34he's the one who brought those items to
1:06:36the wood
1:06:36no there would be no reason to do any
1:06:38testing now there's a camo t-shirt
1:06:41and a blue and black pair of camouflage
1:06:44boxers and a blue starter shirt inside
1:06:47of that bag is that correct that's
1:06:48correct
1:06:49you were just asked whether or not you
1:06:52tested any of those items
1:06:53you sent them off to the crime lab right
1:06:55and you were just asked whether they
1:06:56were tested to determine
1:06:58if it was a child's blood or perpetrated
1:07:00blood
1:07:02this 14 day old baby died from blunt
1:07:04force trauma is that correct
1:07:06from my understanding yes
1:07:10is there any case that you've ever
1:07:12worked as a crimes investigator where a
1:07:1314 day old
1:07:15baby inflicts defensive wounds on a
1:07:18on their killer and would leave
1:07:20perpetrator blood inside of a bag
1:07:22no would you expect that any perpetrator
1:07:26who killed this child
1:07:29would have left their blood on the
1:07:31child's
1:07:32blanket only if they've got cut in the
1:07:35process of removing
1:07:40if the defendant admits
1:07:44defendant mcnabb admits that he
1:07:47owned that bag or a red and blue
1:07:51nike air jordan drawstring bag
1:07:54and courtney bell also says the
1:07:56defendant owned
1:07:58a drawstring bag that looks identical to
1:08:00the one found there in the woods
1:08:01would you need to test it to see whether
1:08:03or not the defendant's dna was on that
1:08:04bag
1:08:05no i would not would you use your common
1:08:08sense and realize that that bag
1:08:11okay
1:08:15the defendants straight defend it
1:08:18well every time she's done that she's
1:08:20then correct
1:08:28before the objection started coming so
1:08:30let's let her finish
1:08:32yes sir
1:08:35if the defendant owned that bag the
1:08:37defendant mcnabb
1:08:40would you need to test that bag to
1:08:42determine whether or not his dna was on
1:08:45the back
1:08:45no i would not given the fact that the
1:08:47bag was out there in the woods
1:08:50and you mentioned that there was raining
1:08:53would you expect that there would be
1:08:55trace evidence or dna necessarily on
1:08:57that bag
1:08:59it's possible however the rain uh
1:09:02could have uh diluted it down so it
1:09:04would not been identifiable
1:09:09when you're investigating crime scenes
1:09:15do you have to assign some level of
1:09:18plausibility to
1:09:21a theory before you just start testing
1:09:22things sure would do
1:09:25so in theory if you went into that
1:09:28trailer
1:09:29in theory in any crime scene you could
1:09:31swab with a q-tip every single square
1:09:34inch
1:09:35of an area looking for whatever evidence
1:09:37might be there is that correct that's
1:09:39great
1:09:41did you contemplate that somebody might
1:09:44have
1:09:45broken into this trailer and kidnapped
1:09:47the kid and took the baby out there and
1:09:48killed it in the woods
1:09:51due to the fact that there was no forced
1:09:53entry noted
1:09:54on any window or door of the trailer no
1:09:57that did not
1:09:58it was it did not appear to be plausible
1:10:01at that time that
1:10:02somebody had broke in and kidnapped that
1:10:04child
1:10:05thank you that's all that i have said
1:10:07thank you
1:10:08um ms zahn asked you
1:10:11whether it would be important to look
1:10:13for fingerprints because you're going to
1:10:15find
1:10:16mr mcnabb's fingerprints in his own
1:10:17trailer is that right that's correct
1:10:19um and you wouldn't be important to look
1:10:21for his dna
1:10:22or for dna in the trailer because his
1:10:23dna is going to be in the trailer that's
1:10:25correct
1:10:25and it wouldn't be important to check
1:10:28out these other things
1:10:29inside the bag because it's going to be
1:10:31khalia's blood right
1:10:33not necessarily his blood but there was
1:10:35like i said there was no
1:10:37no signs of any trauma no noted at the
1:10:40at the house or at the
1:10:42mobile home and as far as
1:10:45going into the bag the only items that
1:10:46was removed was those three items
1:10:50so if you and the rest of law
1:10:51enforcement assume that chris mcnabb was
1:10:53the one who killed
1:10:54the child there's no point in looking
1:10:56for anybody else because you know his
1:10:57stuff's going to be on there
1:10:58so there's no point in checking to see
1:11:00if the their fingerprints are blood from
1:11:02anybody else right i don't think anybody
1:11:04assumed that anything at that point in
1:11:06time
1:11:08i have to follow the the evidence and
1:11:11see where the evidence leads us to
1:11:15if you would have checked for
1:11:16fingerprints on the doorknob to that
1:11:18house
1:11:19and you received fingerprints that did
1:11:21not belong to courtney mcnabb chris
1:11:23mcnabb or anybody in law enforcement
1:11:24but belonged to somebody from a mental
1:11:26institution who had escaped recently
1:11:28wouldn't that be important to the
1:11:29investigation it's almost impossible to
1:11:31pull fingerprints from a doorknob
1:11:33due to the fact that they rotate and
1:11:35disturb
1:11:36and distort any prints that may have
1:11:37been left on there to answer the
1:11:39question if you would have found a
1:11:40fingerprint from an escaped inmate from
1:11:42a mental asylum
1:11:43you would want to know that right it
1:11:45would have been nice to know that yes
1:11:47okay if the blood that was inside the
1:11:49bag that was um that contained the body
1:11:51of the child
1:11:52contained the dna of a escaped
1:11:55inmate from a mental asylum you would
1:11:57want to know that if it contained
1:11:59any blood that belonged to anyone then
1:12:01it would have been important to know not
1:12:02whether
1:12:03if they escaped inmate or not it would
1:12:05have been important to know yes
1:12:07you and the whole sheriff's department
1:12:08thought chris mcnabb did it from the
1:12:09very beginning so you didn't check these
1:12:11theories let me correct you on one thing
1:12:13right there mr carter uh
1:12:14i did not have any contact with mr
1:12:16mcnabb
1:12:17my whole thing on mine was due to
1:12:20strictly to
1:12:21the collection of the evidence i did not
1:12:23interview any
1:12:24any anybody in this case uh so i
1:12:28as far as me making the determination
1:12:29that any one person had done it
1:12:31that is a false statement i did not do
1:12:33that and i am not trying to
1:12:35to say that you personally did this but
1:12:37you were part of an investigation
1:12:40the lead investigators in the case never
1:12:42asked you
1:12:43to take that blood to the gbi to
1:12:45determine what
1:12:46whose blood that was inside the bag is
1:12:48that that's correct
1:12:51the nobody from on high asked you to see
1:12:53if
1:12:54you could get any trace evidence from
1:12:55the trailer understanding
1:12:58there are issues inside the trailer a
1:13:00lot of people have been in there but you
1:13:01never attempted to find any fingerprints
1:13:03anywhere because nobody asked you to
1:13:05right
1:13:05it would have been it would have been
1:13:07impossible to
1:13:08find a readable print like i said before
1:13:11due to the fact that
1:13:13so many of law enforcement family and
1:13:15other people had already been in and out
1:13:17of that trailer numerous times
1:13:19prior to my arrival on scene but if you
1:13:22or somebody in your family was accused
1:13:24of a crime you would want the police to
1:13:26do everything they could
1:13:27to make sure who did it would you not
1:13:29sure and
1:13:30submitting the blood from that bag was
1:13:32an important step that was missed
1:13:35correct um and just assuming that since
1:13:37you don't see
1:13:38anything in the trailer that the crime
1:13:40did not occur there and
1:13:42not looking for another scene those are
1:13:44things that were overlooked and that
1:13:45should have been done
1:13:46to determine for sure who did this is
1:13:48that fair
1:13:49some things were overlooked yes there
1:13:51was and like i said uh we're all human
1:13:53and we all miss some things
1:13:56i am by no means by any stretch of the
1:13:58imagination am i
1:13:59perfect and i absolutely appreciate you
1:14:02admitting that there was a mistake a lot
1:14:03of people would have been would have
1:14:04tried to make excuses and i understand
1:14:06that you just did not think about doing
1:14:08it if you were on trial you would want
1:14:11those things done though right
1:14:12correct that's all i have to say frost
1:14:15nothing nothing thank you sir no nothing
1:14:18you might step down
1:14:19call your next witness your honor the
1:14:22state calls michael mccarricker
1:14:25he's telling me square referring that
1:14:26the testimony you're about presenting
1:14:27the matter now opinion before this jury
1:14:28today will be the truth the whole truth
1:14:29and nothing about the true selfie god i
1:14:31do
1:14:32hey thank you can you please state your
1:14:33name yes my name is michael
1:14:35mccarriger m-c-c-a-r-r-i-a-g-h-e-r
1:14:41where are you employed sir i'm employed
1:14:43at the georgia bureau of investigation
1:14:45division of forensic sciences
1:14:47and what is your uh position i'm the
1:14:50manager of the trace evidence section
1:14:52okay and how long have you been there
1:14:54employed at the gbi almost 12 years
1:14:57can you tell us what about your
1:14:58educational background yes i have a
1:15:00bachelor's degree in biology with a
1:15:01minor in chemistry from the state
1:15:02university of new york i have a master's
1:15:04of science in forensic science
1:15:07from marshall university can you tell
1:15:09the members of the jury
1:15:10uh what sort of training you undergo for
1:15:12the position at the crime lab to test
1:15:14trace evidence
1:15:15yes i'm proficient in three areas of
1:15:17testing specifically
1:15:18gunshot primer residue hair examinations
1:15:21and glass examinations
1:15:23each one of those came with a training
1:15:25program that lasted anywhere between
1:15:27nine months and a year and a half and
1:15:30are there other
1:15:31uh trace testing that is done at the
1:15:34crime lab yes i other testing that's
1:15:37done within my section of laboratory
1:15:39would include paint exams
1:15:41fiber exams something called fracture
1:15:43matching as well
1:15:45and can you give us any kind of an idea
1:15:49how many
1:15:51different objects you've tested or how
1:15:53many tests you've performed during the
1:15:54period of time that you've been employed
1:15:55at the gbi
1:15:56i've performed approximately fourteen
1:15:59hundred gunshot primer residue exams
1:16:01forty or fifty hair exams and thirty or
1:16:03forty glass exams
1:16:05connor i'd uh offer this witness as an
1:16:07expert in
1:16:08uh trace evidence examination objection
1:16:12being allowed to testify another
1:16:15admitted as an expert can you tell the
1:16:18members of the jury what trace evidence
1:16:19is
1:16:20yes trace evidence is a term the state
1:16:21of georgia uses um
1:16:23specifically obviously it's more than
1:16:25state of georgia but in the state of
1:16:26georgia it's
1:16:28small items of evidence that you usually
1:16:29need a microscope to see
1:16:31that it's different than dna which you
1:16:34might hear about which obviously is very
1:16:35small too
1:16:37but it's hairs and fibers and things
1:16:39that can be transferred from one place
1:16:40to another
1:16:41and generally speaking how is that
1:16:43testing done usually with the microscope
1:16:46standard microscope you might have seen
1:16:47in your high school
1:16:49science classes oftentimes we have what
1:16:51are called comparative microscopes which
1:16:53are kind of two microscopes that connect
1:16:55in the middle and allow you to see
1:16:56what's on both stages
1:16:58where might trace evidence be found it
1:17:00can be found anywhere
1:17:02so for example on my suit right now
1:17:03would i have traced evidence potentially
1:17:05on this suit
1:17:06yes it's possible i mean me personally
1:17:08i've ridden today
1:17:09in a state vehicle that is shared with
1:17:11other people i've sat on two or three
1:17:13benches outside and now i'm sitting in a
1:17:15seat here
1:17:16so there could be transfers of
1:17:17extraneous hairs and fibers between
1:17:19me and the things i've touched and also
1:17:21the things i've touched in me
1:17:23are there limitations to trace evidence
1:17:25in terms of
1:17:27i guess using it as an investigative
1:17:29tool to be able to identify a suspect or
1:17:31to exclude a person from a crime
1:17:33uh it's most powerful when
1:17:37it's it's difficult to use to develop a
1:17:38suspect if we're talking about hair
1:17:40specifically
1:17:41because most hairs do not yield dna
1:17:44profiles
1:17:45i think there's an assumption that if
1:17:46you have a hair you have someone's dna
1:17:48profile
1:17:50fact the matter remains that very very
1:17:52few of the hairs we come across in cases
1:17:54are even suitable to attempt dna testing
1:17:56on
1:17:57and even when we attempt that dna
1:17:59testing our biology section obtains
1:18:00profiles about
1:18:0216 to 18 percent of the time so it's
1:18:04very difficult to get nuclear dna from a
1:18:07hair
1:18:09it takes on more power when a subject
1:18:11has been identified and we get a known
1:18:13hair
1:18:13standard from that person and that's
1:18:15when one of my hair examiners could look
1:18:17at
1:18:17question hairs that are found somewhere
1:18:19and compare it to a person's known
1:18:21hair but there's not a database of known
1:18:23hair to pull from so if you don't have a
1:18:25suspect identified it's difficult to use
1:18:27hair
1:18:28because of the dna limitations to
1:18:30develop a suspect
1:18:32so um do you recall a conversation that
1:18:35you and i had
1:18:36on this case this particular case
1:18:39sometimes since it occurred that the
1:18:41crime was alleged to have occurred in
1:18:42october 2017
1:18:44and this would have been at least
1:18:47several months ago possibly a year ago
1:18:49yes i do remember us speaking on the
1:18:50telephone
1:18:51and uh i called you to discuss potential
1:18:55tests that could could be done in this
1:18:57case and just to see if there was any
1:18:59other testing that we
1:19:00possibly could think of to do that might
1:19:02help us in this case is that correct
1:19:04yes ma'am and do you recall specifically
1:19:06discussing um
1:19:08like this baby liner um which has been
1:19:10previously
1:19:11admitted into evidence of statistics
1:19:13number 63 if if the baby that
1:19:15is alleged to have been killed
1:19:19and or kidnapped in this particular case
1:19:21was
1:19:22lying in this sleeper
1:19:25this lining whether or not that
1:19:29particular item might yield any fruitful
1:19:32testing you recall that
1:19:33yes ma'am okay um
1:19:37if that liner was inside of the trailer
1:19:39and the baby was sleeping in the trailer
1:19:41what trace evidence might be expected to
1:19:43be on there and from whom
1:19:45uh anyone who's frequents that trailer
1:19:47would have possibly been standing over
1:19:50the baby
1:19:50or depending on where that liner has
1:19:52been if it comes into contact with
1:19:54anything else
1:19:55and that trailer hairs are laying around
1:19:57fibers are laying around
1:20:00if someone had a short amount of time
1:20:02standing over that liner
1:20:03you'd be relying on for trace evidence
1:20:05you'd be relying on the fact that the
1:20:06person would happen to shed a hair at
1:20:08that exact
1:20:09moment that they grabbed the baby if
1:20:11they were foreign to that trailer
1:20:13which would be a low possibility and if
1:20:16this particular item
1:20:17and pretty much everything in the
1:20:19trailer
1:20:20had been handled by multiple law
1:20:23enforcement officers
1:20:25multiple family members who came to look
1:20:28for the child
1:20:30both defendants and um
1:20:33even friends that were invited over to
1:20:34help on the search would that
1:20:36again reduce the um potential
1:20:39evidentiary power
1:20:40i guess of that item and any other items
1:20:42in the residence given how many people
1:20:44were in there tossing things about uh
1:20:47yes at that
1:20:48point i mean after the alleged incident
1:20:50occurred you'd be
1:20:51exposing that to either loss of what had
1:20:53been there
1:20:54or contamination with people coming in
1:20:57after the fact
1:20:58and if that uh sleeper was one that's
1:21:00easily transported as opposed to like a
1:21:02stationary crib that was inside of a
1:21:04residence
1:21:04um would that also further expose that
1:21:07sleeper and that liner to
1:21:10other people's uh trace evidence yeah i
1:21:13mean if you're taking something from one
1:21:14environment and putting into another
1:21:15you're introducing it to the possibility
1:21:17of extraneous
1:21:18errors and fibers that might be in that
1:21:20new environment thank you those are all
1:21:21the questions i have this with us
1:21:23sure thank you i'm sorry
1:21:26are you dr carragher no master's degree
1:21:29not a phd
1:21:30no problem uh mr mcgirdurb um
1:21:35the you said that you it's hard to
1:21:38identify a suspect from
1:21:40uh from trace evidence like hair
1:21:43because of the lack of dna dna
1:21:46i guess maybe the proper term would say
1:21:48develop a subject
1:21:50right but if you have a subject
1:21:53you're able to eliminate a suspect based
1:21:56on that trace evidence is that fair
1:21:59if you have a suspect you could try to
1:22:01associate the person with the item yes
1:22:03right or eliminate that person uh well a
1:22:06lack of trace evidence doesn't eliminate
1:22:08the possibility they've been associated
1:22:10with that item but it would be a lack of
1:22:13evidence supporting that theory right if
1:22:14it but if you if your suspect
1:22:16had pink hair and the hair that you find
1:22:19is
1:22:20black you can eliminate that this is
1:22:22probably not that subject's hair
1:22:24from that particular time period yes
1:22:26assuming all their hairs on their head
1:22:28were dyed
1:22:28right and if you looked at all the
1:22:32evidence
1:22:33in other words several people sat in
1:22:34that chair the last few days
1:22:37uh there might be trace evidence from
1:22:39all of those people there right
1:22:41yeah it's possible and people have sat
1:22:43here beyond the last few days as well
1:22:45and it's possible that there's no trace
1:22:46evidence from some of them but there is
1:22:48from others right
1:22:49correct okay but if you were to go
1:22:51through the list of people who have
1:22:52testified here today
1:22:53and you found that there is trace
1:22:55evidence that does not
1:22:57associate with any of those people you
1:22:59can say
1:23:00somebody that i don't know has been in
1:23:02this chair at some point
1:23:04recently is that fair well when doing a
1:23:06hair exam if we're going to
1:23:07get further into the weeds on it even on
1:23:09items that we do associate with people
1:23:11through hair there are always hairs that
1:23:13we are unable to do anything with
1:23:15they don't have any information with
1:23:16them they're if you look at the hairs on
1:23:18your arms
1:23:20there's no characteristics to those
1:23:22hairs so on every item we analyze
1:23:24there's
1:23:24always items or hairs that we cannot
1:23:26associate to any person
1:23:28even if given an exhausted exhausted
1:23:30list
1:23:31of everyone who could have been there
1:23:33right but
1:23:34if we analyzed that chair we took all
1:23:37the trace
1:23:38evidence from that chair we looked at
1:23:39all the people who have testified the
1:23:41last couple of days
1:23:42and sat there and we found trace
1:23:44evidence from some of them and not
1:23:46others
1:23:46but we found trace evidence from someone
1:23:48who we know
1:23:49to be
1:23:53somebody not from here that we know to
1:23:55be the governor
1:23:56if uh if we find trace evidence that we
1:23:58can associate with the governor
1:24:00then we can say you know what the
1:24:01governor must have been here fairly
1:24:03recently
1:24:04or somebody near the governor uh touched
1:24:06the governor in that evidence
1:24:08got here but somehow we would know that
1:24:10the governor has been sitting in that
1:24:11chair or his trace evidence is near that
1:24:13chair
1:24:14if we receive the hair standard from the
1:24:15governor and we did a microscopical
1:24:17comparison
1:24:18and it was consistent yes then we would
1:24:20look at the route and try to get the dna
1:24:22profile from the governor
1:24:23if that's unsuccessful we could try
1:24:25mitochondrial dna
1:24:26right to see if it's consistent with the
1:24:28governor but there are ways of yes
1:24:30right doing the association um are you
1:24:32familiar with any of the other testing
1:24:34that was done in this case
1:24:35no sir actually i'm not have you
1:24:36reviewed that okay thank you sir well
1:24:38can i ask one more question um when you
1:24:41are looking for dna
1:24:42um are you qualified to talk about dna
1:24:45just to some extent
1:24:46as it pertains to hairs okay to an
1:24:48extent
1:24:51all right never mind thank you we're all
1:24:54just one question mr
1:24:57yes sir um okay
1:25:00so they're you're not here to present
1:25:04any data or anything on any trace
1:25:06evidence that was found in this case
1:25:07no we did no testing in my section very
1:25:09good thank you
1:25:16excuse me further attendance on the
1:25:18court
1:25:20we've got about 25 minutes
1:25:23you got a witness to fill that uh yes
1:25:25your honor the state calls tommy davis
1:25:28he's the only swear or front of the
1:25:30testimony about giving them an opinion
1:25:31before this jury today will be the truth
1:25:33the whole truth and nothing but the true
1:25:34stopping god i do
1:25:35all right thank you please um introduce
1:25:38yourself to members of the jury
1:25:40my name is tommy davis i'm the coroner
1:25:42here in newton county
1:25:43briefly tell the members of the jury
1:25:45what the forum does
1:25:47the coroner's main duty is to determine
1:25:49cause manner
1:25:50and circumstances related to any death
1:25:53here in newton county that we are
1:25:54involved in the investigation for
1:25:57now when you contacted on october the
1:25:598th 2017
1:26:00to respond over off of henderson mill
1:26:02road in a wooded area for a body
1:26:05i was yes can you tell the members of
1:26:06the jury when you got there who you met
1:26:08with
1:26:08i met with investigator kitchens
1:26:10investigator alexander and sergeant
1:26:12dickerson all with the newton county
1:26:14sheriff's office
1:26:15what did they uh show you or
1:26:19tell you we went into the wooded area
1:26:21there and
1:26:22a drawstring bag had been found
1:26:26and contents of the bag appeared to be
1:26:29that of an infant child
1:26:31were you aware that there had been a
1:26:33reported
1:26:34missing child from the day before in
1:26:36that area yes i was
1:26:38now did they actually give you the body
1:26:41or the bag
1:26:42we went into the to where the bag was
1:26:44located
1:26:45and at a certain point we decided it was
1:26:48time to
1:26:49remove the bag from the area and take it
1:26:52up to the gbi state medical examiner's
1:26:54office for autopsy
1:26:55i removed the bag from that location and
1:26:57transported it there
1:27:01can you tell the members of the jury
1:27:02during that period of transportation
1:27:04did you ever remove the child from the
1:27:06bag or
1:27:08unwrap any of the contents inside of the
1:27:10bag that the child was in
1:27:11no i did not we decided we would leave
1:27:13everything as it was
1:27:15take all of that as evidence and
1:27:16directly to the medical examiner's
1:27:19office
1:27:19for the medical examiner to do that did
1:27:22the item
1:27:23of the bag itself and the body that was
1:27:25inside of the bag
1:27:27were you present for the autopsy i was
1:27:29yeah was the autopsy the first time that
1:27:32the body was removed from the bag and
1:27:34any items were removed from
1:27:36the child's body yes it was yes and
1:27:39it did in fact this body that
1:27:42you carry to the crime lab in this uh
1:27:45did you call it a drawstring bag
1:27:47was that the body of khalia mcmahon it
1:27:50was
1:27:53now at the autopsy in this case you
1:27:57attended is that correct i
1:27:59was there yes and um is it part of your
1:28:02responsibility as foreigner to work with
1:28:04the gbi medical examiner's office to
1:28:07provide them necessary information that
1:28:09they might need to
1:28:10reach a conclusion in a case right what
1:28:13we do is we take
1:28:14the scene investigation and we turn all
1:28:16of that over to
1:28:18the medical examiner we give them
1:28:20information about
1:28:22how we've discovered the body
1:28:25circumstances that led us up to
1:28:27discovering the body and so forth
1:28:29we turned all of that over to dr darasaw
1:28:32who's the medical examiner on this case
1:28:34discussed it that morning before the
1:28:36autopsy started
1:28:38and then she started the autopsy and
1:28:42part of the investigative work that you
1:28:43do to provide for the medical examiner's
1:28:45office
1:28:46is medical records sometimes is that
1:28:47correct correct we do subpoena on
1:28:49medical records we do the
1:28:51the field investigation and the footwork
1:28:53up to
1:28:54the medical portion that the medical
1:28:56doctors do and in this particular case
1:28:59um you provided dr daresaw with the
1:29:01medical records from the child's birth
1:29:03on september 23rd
1:29:042017 from piedmont hospital is that
1:29:07correct correct
1:29:08john right offers states exhibit number
1:29:0910 which is a certified copy of the
1:29:10piedmont newton medical record for palia
1:29:12mcmahon no objection
1:29:14what was that 10 yes
1:29:17without objection did you also gather
1:29:21records from
1:29:21a visit that she had had
1:29:25at dr khalid's office just before her
1:29:27death the pediatrician yes
1:29:31i mean those have already been tendered
1:29:32into evidence
1:29:34um mr davis i wanted to ask you about
1:29:38um your familiarity with crimes and
1:29:41investigations
1:29:42involving cadaver dogs are you familiar
1:29:44with that yes ma'am
1:29:45have you had the occasion in your years
1:29:47as the coroner here how long have you
1:29:48been corner
1:29:49been with the office since 2003 elected
1:29:52as coroner in 2008
1:29:53and have served since then and
1:29:57approximately how many death
1:29:58investigations
1:30:00how many dead bodies do you go out and
1:30:02see every year our
1:30:03office responds to just over 250 to 275
1:30:07cases a year
1:30:08and that includes all of the homicides
1:30:10here in this county is that correct yes
1:30:13and have you had the occasion to respond
1:30:15to homicides where a body has been found
1:30:18in a wooded area or there's reason to
1:30:20believe that a body might be found
1:30:22outdoors
1:30:23in a wooded area yes have you had the
1:30:25occasion to be
1:30:26on crime scenes where they've used
1:30:29cadaver dogs or
1:30:30tracking dogs i have are those 100
1:30:33successful
1:30:34no ma'am and are they a tool
1:30:37that can be used they are a good tool
1:30:40for investigation but they are not
1:30:41always successful
1:30:42do you have um a example of a case where
1:30:46a cadaver dog or multiple cadaver dogs
1:30:48failed
1:30:49to return or bring investigators to the
1:30:52scene of
1:30:53a dead body or body parts yes we had a
1:30:57relevance unless they can show that the
1:31:02circumstances of that case are exactly
1:31:04like circumstances in this case
1:31:06whatever story he's about to tell is not
1:31:08going to be relevant to the particular
1:31:09case
1:31:09that we have here objection overruled
1:31:11you may go forward go ahead
1:31:13the uh we had a case here in newton
1:31:15county where
1:31:16a person was dismembered and the body
1:31:20parts were
1:31:21placed in a wooded area down in the
1:31:23southern portion of the county
1:31:26the homeowner there her dog was turned
1:31:29out one night which was normal for her
1:31:30to do for the dogs to go out and run
1:31:33and they brought back a foot
1:31:36so we were called down to start a death
1:31:38investigation
1:31:39first to confirm that it was actually a
1:31:41human foot and then
1:31:42from there to start our investigation
1:31:46into who this
1:31:46possibly belonged to and we did that
1:31:50during that time other body parts were
1:31:53found
1:31:54we contacted the gbi state medical
1:31:57examiner's office
1:31:58they helped in the investigation and
1:32:01over the next day or so
1:32:03cadaver dogs were brought in search
1:32:05teams were brought in
1:32:06and i believe there was probably 80 to
1:32:08100 people
1:32:09involved in this search along with the
1:32:12cadaver dogs
1:32:13the cadaver dogs searched the area along
1:32:15with the people
1:32:16and nothing else was found so the
1:32:19property was
1:32:20opened back up to the homeowner and
1:32:21property owners there
1:32:23and around 11 o'clock that night i
1:32:25received a phone call
1:32:27from our dispatch to respond back out to
1:32:30that residence
1:32:31because a dismembered hand had been
1:32:33found brought onto the porch by the same
1:32:36dog
1:32:37that had found the foot several nights
1:32:40earlier
1:32:40and that was just uh the homeowner
1:32:44for lack of a better term her just like
1:32:46her mutt i mean just her regular dog
1:32:48right it was it was not trained in any
1:32:50way it was just her
1:32:51one of her dogs she might have had two
1:32:53or three of them but that was just one
1:32:55of her animals there
1:32:58and that dog had not received all of the
1:33:00training and had did not have all the
1:33:01experience
1:33:02i assumed that all the cadaver dogs did
1:33:04no
1:33:06thank you that's all that i have john
1:33:09mr davis the uh
1:33:14you were talking specifically about
1:33:15cadaver dogs right
1:33:17during that doing what you're you're
1:33:19saying that they're not always
1:33:20successful is that right
1:33:21that's right yes you're not talking
1:33:23about trailing dogs
1:33:24right cadaver dogs search dogs any dog
1:33:27that would be used during an
1:33:29investigation or trying to discover a
1:33:31deceased person well cadaver dogs
1:33:33actually are looking for the smell of
1:33:35death right a
1:33:36deep smell of decomposition right that's
1:33:38what they would be trained to do yes sir
1:33:40and trailing dogs they're going to be
1:33:42looking for fresh scents a scent that
1:33:44they have found
1:33:45from um from the person they're looking
1:33:47for don't work with trailing dogs right
1:33:49so
1:33:50okay okay again so what your expertise
1:33:52that you're talking about here today is
1:33:53about cadaver dogs cases i've been
1:33:55involved with before yesterday all right
1:33:57if i drop dead right here um i don't
1:33:59smell like a cadaver right
1:34:02you smell like yourself right until i
1:34:04start to decompose
1:34:06okay is that correct yes possibly so
1:34:09i'm not going to start smelling like a
1:34:10cadaver until
1:34:12what 12 hours 24 hours how long does it
1:34:14take for a person to start smelling
1:34:16like death like decomposition
1:34:19any type of decomposition would start
1:34:21immediately
1:34:22at the point of death at what point can
1:34:24you smell it i don't know i'm not
1:34:25not trained to do that right okay
1:34:35you may step down any reason why he
1:34:36might not be excused
1:34:39excuse me for the attendance on the
1:34:41court this time i'll excuse you all for
1:34:43lunch
1:34:44until one o'clock uh don't discuss this
1:34:47case with each other anybody else or
1:34:48allow anybody to discuss
1:34:50with you remember all my early
1:34:52instructions
1:34:53or do no investigation on your own and
1:34:56please do not look at any television
1:34:58read any
1:35:00print uh looking social media while
1:35:03you're on lunch break and i'll ask when
1:35:04you come back
1:35:05had you done some or seen anything but
1:35:09with those comments you're excused
1:35:10for lunch leave your notes here one
1:35:12o'clock
1:35:14is everybody ready to proceed okay
1:35:18judge i do have um a stipulated set of
1:35:20redactions
1:35:21for the body cam from yesterday that
1:35:22we've agreed upon and everyone's signed
1:35:24to 20.
1:35:28i have one witness um that's not going
1:35:31to be too long and then we're going to
1:35:32have the autopsy photographs so
1:35:34i don't have reports i wanted to
1:35:36everybody needs to be alerted out there
1:35:37the second witness is coming up
1:35:41it's gonna be we're gonna do autopsy
1:35:42photographs
1:35:44i don't are there family members or
1:35:46people out
1:35:49there there's some family members here
1:35:50we've warned them are y'all planning on
1:35:53staying in or stepping out when that
1:35:54happens
1:35:56okay let me instruct you clearly i
1:35:59better not hear any outbursts
1:36:00emotional or otherwise because if i do
1:36:04i'm going to excuse the jury and hold
1:36:06people in contempt going
1:36:07is that clear to everybody
1:36:12is that clear to each defendant mr
1:36:14mcnabb no
1:36:17miss bell is that clear to you too okay
1:36:21everybody else ready to proceed okay
1:36:24let's bring the jersey
1:36:36okay everybody may be seated
1:36:39as always i'll ask now you're back from
1:36:41lunch has anybody
1:36:42viewed anything been on social media and
1:36:46seen anything or read
1:36:47anything or had anybody approach them to
1:36:49talk about this case
1:36:51everybody's saying no no yeah appreciate
1:36:54it
1:36:55okay we're ready to begin now call your
1:36:57first next witness you're out of the
1:36:58state called gary morgan
1:37:02and please you saw only swear or firm
1:37:04that testimony you're about to present
1:37:05the matter now putting before this jury
1:37:07today will be the truth
1:37:08the whole truth and nothing about the
1:37:09truth to help you god i do thank you
1:37:15can you please state your name sir gary
1:37:18morgan
1:37:19where are you i'm employed with the
1:37:21sandy springs police department
1:37:23and can you tell the members of the jury
1:37:25what it is that you
1:37:26do or where you're assigned at the
1:37:28police department yes at the sandy
1:37:30springs police department i'm employed
1:37:31as a crime scene investigator some of my
1:37:34duties include fingerprint analysis
1:37:36photography and 3d recreation of crime
1:37:39scenes and accident scenes
1:37:41and how many years experience do you
1:37:43have in law enforcement
1:37:44i have five years of experience in law
1:37:46enforcement are you familiar with a
1:37:48product
1:37:48named pharaoh yes i am can you tell the
1:37:51members of the jury what it is
1:37:52farrow is a 3d laser scanner it's almost
1:37:55like a camera you set up on a tripod
1:37:57after you confirm all the settings are
1:37:59correct
1:38:00then you will start the scanner the
1:38:02scanner will take a number of points
1:38:04um it uses the same technology as lidar
1:38:08traffic speed detection does a laser
1:38:10shoots out
1:38:11it collects a point comes back to the
1:38:14scanner
1:38:15and then from there it records a point
1:38:17it will record
1:38:18all of these points and create what's
1:38:20called a scan point cloud
1:38:22which is essentially a 3d reconstruction
1:38:24of whatever room or
1:38:26area or even a vehicle that we have
1:38:28scanned
1:38:29you'll take a number of those scans put
1:38:31them all together in a project point
1:38:33cloud
1:38:34to create an entire 3d reconstruction of
1:38:36the scene
1:38:37we can take the scene back to whatever
1:38:40date and time it how everything was when
1:38:43i scanned it
1:38:45and then from there we can fly through
1:38:47it we can take measurements we can see
1:38:49all of the little details about the
1:38:51scene that the scanner was able to
1:38:53capture
1:38:54and have you been trained on how to use
1:38:57this technology in pharaoh
1:38:59yes i was trained by the manufacturer by
1:39:01pharaoh itself
1:39:02in order to operate the scanner and to
1:39:05operate the software that it requires
1:39:07and you're certified by them as well yes
1:39:09i am certified by them
1:39:11how many times have you used this
1:39:12equipment in software
1:39:14i have scanned approximately 900
1:39:17separate
1:39:18scans over approximately 80 separate
1:39:21scenes
1:39:22what type of scenes have you scanned i
1:39:24have scanned scenes such as aggravated
1:39:26assaults shootings stabbings things of
1:39:28that nature
1:39:29i have scanned homicides i've scanned
1:39:31traffic investigations
1:39:33for vehicular homicides or even just
1:39:36serious injury by vehicle
1:39:38anything where we wanted to create a 3d
1:39:41representation
1:39:42in order to go back to the scene to view
1:39:45data at a later time
1:39:46have you testified as an expert before
1:39:48in the superior courts of
1:39:50georgia on this subject matter yes i
1:39:52have i testified as an expert in the
1:39:55fulton county superior court
1:39:57and what was that case that was the
1:39:58textbook hyper case
1:40:00have you um how many other experts in
1:40:02this area
1:40:03have testified on this subject matter
1:40:05currently in this area in the
1:40:07southeast region there are only about
1:40:09five experts that have testified in
1:40:11criminal court
1:40:12now can you explain how the equipment
1:40:14and the software work i know you gave us
1:40:16just a general
1:40:17description earlier but how does it how
1:40:20would you scan a scene
1:40:22so i would scan the scene by first going
1:40:24out to the scene i'll take the scanner
1:40:26i'll set it on top of the
1:40:27tripod that comes along with it and i'll
1:40:30first verify that all of my settings are
1:40:33appropriate for
1:40:34whatever scene we are scanning different
1:40:36types of scene required different
1:40:38settings
1:40:39a vehicle accident might require
1:40:40something then scanning the
1:40:42inside of a home or just scanning a
1:40:45roadway with no vehicles in it
1:40:46after i verify all my settings are right
1:40:49i push
1:40:50the start button and then i let the scan
1:40:52run its course
1:40:53the scan is the scanner is going to then
1:40:55take
1:40:56first the laser measurements and then
1:40:58it's going to take a series of pictures
1:41:00in order to produce the color for the
1:41:02laser measurements
1:41:04after that after i get all of my scan
1:41:06positions that i need out on the scene
1:41:08i will take the scanner back to the
1:41:11office i'll take the sd card
1:41:13uh put it into my laptop and from there
1:41:15i'll start working in what's called
1:41:17ferrocene ferrocene is the program that
1:41:19we use in order to
1:41:22process the scans which is where the the
1:41:24software determines what kind of data
1:41:27it's looking at
1:41:28whether it is just laser or its laser
1:41:31and the pictures
1:41:32as well after the processing is done we
1:41:34start registration
1:41:36registration is basically where the
1:41:37scanner stitches
1:41:39all of the separate scans together to
1:41:41create this one 3d scene
1:41:43after that i will create a project point
1:41:46cloud which just lets us view the scene
1:41:48a little bit easier
1:41:49now at this time i would like to tender
1:41:51gary morgan as an expert
1:41:53in 3d scanning reconstruction and crime
1:41:57scene reconstruction
1:41:58no joke be allowed to testify as an
1:42:00expert in that area
1:42:03detective morgan did i request your
1:42:04assistance in connection with this case
1:42:06back in uh
1:42:07november of 2017 with reconstruction of
1:42:10this crime scene
1:42:11yes that's correct and specifically was
1:42:14that on november 10th of 2017
1:42:16yes i believe it was and did you bring
1:42:18your equipment
1:42:19to the scene um the trailer part there
1:42:22located
1:42:23off of 36 in covington and newton county
1:42:26georgia
1:42:27yes i did and did you scan the inside
1:42:29and outside of lot
1:42:3131 the trailer there called lot 31
1:42:34yes i did and did you also scan from lot
1:42:3631
1:42:37to henderson mill road via a power line
1:42:40easement
1:42:41next to the wooded area that's correct
1:42:43in total how many scans did you perform
1:42:45do you recall
1:42:46i do not recall i believe it was 34 or
1:42:5035 scans okay and can you explain
1:42:53what projects you created with these
1:42:55images that you took
1:42:56yes i created first we have the 3d scene
1:43:00itself the project point cloud
1:43:02which allows us to freely navigate the
1:43:04scene
1:43:05we can go under the scene above the
1:43:08scene
1:43:08through the scene we'll be able to go
1:43:11into the trailer on the outside of the
1:43:13trailer
1:43:14any of the areas that the scanner
1:43:16capture i also created a fly-through
1:43:18video
1:43:19which is something that can be viewed on
1:43:21any computer it's just uh mp
1:43:24mp4 type video um with that
1:43:27it is a bit more limited we cannot
1:43:29freely fly through
1:43:31the scene to see everything but we can
1:43:33see the specific points that
1:43:36the scanner was set up to tape uh from
1:43:38there i also created what's called a
1:43:40seam to go
1:43:41a scene to go is almost like a photo
1:43:44walkthrough that you might see on real
1:43:45estate websites
1:43:46it allows you to jump between the
1:43:48different scan stations to look at
1:43:50the picture that was taken you can also
1:43:53still take measurements in this mode
1:43:55you can also still add notes and take
1:43:57screenshots in this mode as well
1:44:00i'm showing you states exhibit number 67
1:44:02do you recognize this
1:44:03yes i do how do you recognize it this is
1:44:06a copy of the
1:44:07flash drive that contains the fly
1:44:09through video and also contains the
1:44:11scene to go that was created and was
1:44:14tendered
1:44:14and did you prepare this exhibit yes i
1:44:18did
1:44:18and is this a copy again of what you
1:44:20have already on your laptop
1:44:21yes it is and did you also provide
1:44:23copies to the defense attorneys
1:44:26um in the past two weeks when you gave
1:44:28me this copy
1:44:29yes i did and you actually
1:44:32sat down with all all of us together and
1:44:35went over this
1:44:36project and in your images is that
1:44:38correct yes i went over
1:44:39the projects itself the exact items that
1:44:42were being tendered and also how to open
1:44:44the different projects and
1:44:45how to work them on at this time i would
1:44:48uh tender state's exhibit number 67 into
1:44:50evidence
1:44:51let's be available without objection
1:44:55you may okay detective morgan you have
1:44:57um your laptop up there is that correct
1:45:00that's correct and you i'm going to turn
1:45:01the screen on so that we can see
1:45:04what you have on your screen within the
1:45:06lights thank you sir
1:45:08um can you kind of go through
1:45:11these in an order which order would be
1:45:14best for you to go through them
1:45:16uh it's going to be the best order will
1:45:18be to go through the
1:45:193d scans itself uh from there we can
1:45:23as i said we can freely move around if
1:45:25there are any questions as to anything
1:45:27we can address those questions in the 3d
1:45:29scan
1:45:30i will then present the fly through
1:45:32video you will all be able to see the
1:45:34exact route that the fly through video
1:45:36takes
1:45:37and after that i will present the scene
1:45:38to go and
1:45:40some of the different different methods
1:45:43that uh that that can provide
1:45:45okay so when we have if i had a question
1:45:47for example in the
1:45:48in the uh first project that you're
1:45:51gonna
1:45:51show us you could actually answer like
1:45:53you could measure something for me
1:45:55yes i could and we could rely on that as
1:45:57an accurate measurement
1:45:59yes we could okay so let's go ahead and
1:46:01start with that first project then
1:46:04and again this one's called what what
1:46:05now this is the
1:46:07project point cloud so as we can see
1:46:10here i can use my mouse
1:46:12and move multiple ways i can move up
1:46:15i can move down i can move into the
1:46:18scene i can tilt it
1:46:19i can also move out this mouse is
1:46:23a little bit tricky to operate so i will
1:46:25try to take this
1:46:26as slow as i can and try not to have the
1:46:29camera jarring around too much
1:46:48is this lot 31 yes yes this is
1:46:54so this is the exterior of lot 31
1:47:00we have a door and a porch on this side
1:47:03here
1:47:04and an open door and another porch on
1:47:07this side here
1:47:08now why does the bottom part of the
1:47:10trailer appear to
1:47:12almost be see-through or
1:47:15so the reason that some of these areas
1:47:17might appear to be see-through is
1:47:19the scanner was unable to collect enough
1:47:22points from
1:47:22there if the scanner does not collect
1:47:25enough points the points will be spaced
1:47:27out too far apart
1:47:28and then it looks as if they're
1:47:29see-through if we were to
1:47:31zoom way in on this we can see all of
1:47:34these separate points that it collected
1:47:37but if we were to do that on an area
1:47:39that's a bit more
1:47:40put together that it had more points
1:47:42it's harder to see that
1:47:43so on this exterior here the scanner
1:47:46more than likely because of direct
1:47:48sunlight
1:47:48had an issue collecting enough points to
1:47:52make a cohesive image okay
1:47:57and then we can go inside of the trailer
1:48:02here
1:48:05and all of these items were present when
1:48:07you did the scans correct
1:48:08yes anything that is here in this view
1:48:11was present at the time that we scanned
1:48:14it
1:48:14all right that doesn't mean it was there
1:48:16or was not there
1:48:18before we scanned it or earlier or even
1:48:21later on
1:48:22this might not be the current state of
1:48:25this trailer
1:48:26this is only the exact date and time
1:48:28which we produced
1:48:29these scans
1:48:58as you guys can see we can fly through
1:49:00walls
1:49:10now if i asked you to do some
1:49:12measurements for me could you do that
1:49:13here
1:49:13yes i could could you tell me what the
1:49:15length of this trailer is
1:49:16yes so if we go above the
1:49:20trailer here
1:49:32so the exterior of this trailer for
1:49:35measured from the top is 57.075 feet
1:49:39from the points that we measured and
1:49:42that is from the exterior
1:49:43yes that is the exterior of the trailer
1:49:46uh
1:49:46i believe that the interior wall of the
1:49:49trailer
1:49:50just comes to this section right here if
1:49:53you guys can see that mouse cursor
1:49:56it looks like there's a little bit of an
1:49:58overhang on that side
1:50:00okay what about the width of the trailer
1:50:04so the width of the trailer
1:50:12let's zoom in a little bit closer so we
1:50:14can see that distance
1:50:15looks to be approximately 11.7823
1:50:19feet okay can you go
1:50:22back inside the trailer yes
1:50:26we just go right through the ceiling we
1:50:28can go right through the ceiling right
1:50:29through the walls
1:50:31okay can you measure the distance from
1:50:34the
1:50:34door that you were just the door in the
1:50:36left or the i guess i'm calling that the
1:50:38front porch that one
1:50:39the distance from that to the couch the
1:50:41distance from this to the couch would
1:50:43you like to the edge of the couch the
1:50:45center
1:50:45chair the center portion we'll just go
1:50:48to the center
1:50:49all right we'll go from
1:50:52the center of the doorway here
1:50:57along the floor to the center of the
1:51:00couch
1:51:01and that comes out to approximately
1:51:0310.48 feet
1:51:05straight line distance and what about
1:51:07from that
1:51:08center of the couch to the other door
1:51:09that's on the
1:51:11right side as you're walking down the
1:51:12hallway center of the couch
1:51:15to the other side straight line distance
1:51:19sure i can get a good angle here
1:51:27that comes out to 18.1617
1:51:31feet but that is going through a wall
1:51:35okay so if you would like i can do a
1:51:37distance to
1:51:38the doorway and then back down to the
1:51:41hall sure
1:51:42all right
1:51:52so that comes out to an overall of
1:51:5518.6107
1:51:56feet okay and what about from that sofa
1:51:59the edge of that sofa
1:52:02to the air conditioning muted area and
1:52:06the master bedroom
1:52:08from the edge of that sofa to the air
1:52:09conditioning unit would you like
1:52:10straight line distance or
1:52:12yes down the hallway don't know that any
1:52:15of our suspects
1:52:16can fly through walls straight lines
1:52:20and you said yes you want it to go all
1:52:23the way to the door
1:52:26all right so to the floor in front of
1:52:29the doorway
1:52:30and then out to the air conditioning
1:52:31unit is 33.529 feet
1:52:34overall
1:52:42okay i don't think i have any other um
1:52:44measurements
1:52:45that i would like for you to make at
1:52:47this point in time
1:52:49all right that case we will continue
1:52:52out of the trailer
1:53:05and then we have a roadway going through
1:53:07the trailer park
1:53:22and what is this now this is the trail
1:53:26that goes from the trailer park it
1:53:28follows
1:53:29the power lines and goes out to
1:53:31hendersonville i believe it was
1:53:38okay
1:53:41and then we have this easement here
1:53:43which had we scanned along that would
1:53:45take us straight to henderson mill
1:53:47following the power lines
1:53:52continuing through the wood line
1:53:55there is a trail of sorts that is pretty
1:53:59free of
1:53:59brush
1:54:03it leads off to the right and off to the
1:54:06left
1:54:19and then into the wood line here and
1:54:22what is that area there
1:54:24this is the area that the body of the
1:54:26child was found
1:54:30and henderson mill is straight
1:54:34that way it looks like we can actually
1:54:35see just the edge of it
1:54:38up here all right
1:54:43now are you capable of measuring the
1:54:45distance from the trailer
1:54:49um first as the growth lies to that area
1:54:51where the bird
1:54:52i mean where the body was found yes so i
1:54:55have what is called a clipping box
1:54:58here a clipping box allows me to
1:55:00temporary high points to kind of get
1:55:02them out of the way
1:55:03so we have a clipping box that is placed
1:55:06over the
1:55:06tree the treat area that we were just in
1:55:09so we can view that just a little bit
1:55:11better
1:55:11without some of the noise and the
1:55:13clutter in there so if we go back
1:55:15into that we can see this is the branch
1:55:20the tree branch
1:55:36all right my mouse broke on me see if we
1:55:38can
1:55:39do this right here
1:56:01this is to the center of the trailer
1:56:03itself because our other
1:56:06our other um distances are there it's a
1:56:09little hard to see the exact
1:56:11center of anything so you can actually
1:56:13hide those
1:56:15in just a second here but that comes out
1:56:17as the crow flies to
1:56:21695.6193
1:56:22feet from the point that was measured to
1:56:26the center of the trailer
1:56:29let's double check on that
1:56:33yes that comes to the center of the
1:56:40trailer
1:56:46so here we can hide any of our previous
1:56:48distances they are still there
1:56:50i would just have to go back here and
1:56:52click the visible button again so we'd
1:56:54be able to see
1:56:55clean everything up a little bit can you
1:56:57is it possible to measure of course we
1:56:59don't know
1:57:01the route the specific route that anyone
1:57:04might have
1:57:05taken to leave that baby
1:57:08where the child was found but can you
1:57:10measure
1:57:12a path from the trailer kind of sort of
1:57:14following the path that you just showed
1:57:15us
1:57:16in feet because yes we can go from the
1:57:19front what's designated as the front
1:57:21door or the back door
1:57:23front door just fine
1:57:32all right so this is the front doorstep
1:58:12and then following the roadway
1:58:25now we are through the bushes
1:58:37that comes out to an overall 856.206
1:58:42feet as it was measured
1:58:46okay
1:58:49is there anything else on that project
1:58:51that you unless there are other
1:58:53measurements to be taken no there's
1:58:55nothing else on this project
1:58:56okay what about the next project
1:59:00all right next this is a fly-through
1:59:01video that was created
1:59:03this will fly us through a number of
1:59:05predetermined points in order to get a
1:59:08general overall view of the scene uh
1:59:10this ferro watermark is going to
1:59:12continue
1:59:13to float around throughout this video
1:59:16this video can be paused it can be sped
1:59:18up it can be slowed down
1:59:20if anything if we need to go back a step
1:59:23or two
1:59:24you can do that all with this video
1:59:42okay
2:00:10so
2:00:38um
2:01:09[Music]
2:01:20so
2:03:37and what was that one called again this
2:03:39is the fly through video or fly through
2:03:41animation
2:03:43and then you have scene to go with your
2:03:46final project
2:03:47yes that's correct and this is finished
2:03:51can you show the numbers
2:04:12now this is seem to go
2:04:17once we open up our project here this
2:04:19gives us
2:04:20a 2d top down view of the
2:04:24of the scene itself and everything that
2:04:26was exported
2:04:27we can move around through this we can
2:04:30zoom in to see the actual
2:04:32scan positions themselves so that was
2:04:34the last scan number 36 there
2:04:37we can come back over to the trailer
2:04:40itself
2:04:41and we can see the other scan positions
2:04:44over here
2:04:44so every one of those dots does that
2:04:46represent a different place you placed a
2:04:483d scanner and allowed it to
2:04:50make a 360 scan yes each one of these
2:04:53dots is a different area where the
2:04:56uh where the scanner was placed to get
2:04:58one scan
2:04:59and you scanned in color in the skin
2:05:01right yes that is correct
2:05:03is that optional color is optional uh if
2:05:06you do scan in color though you can
2:05:08actually swap back and forth between
2:05:09color and grayscale
2:05:11the color is our go-to method
2:05:15but if time is more of an issue or if
2:05:19lighting is an issue we can't scan in
2:05:20color at night
2:05:21so we have to do black and white then so
2:05:24we can actually
2:05:26double click on these different points
2:05:28and see the picture that was taken here
2:05:34and you can even see the shadow of your
2:05:35camera you can even see the
2:05:37shadow of the camera we can
2:05:41swap it over to grayscale
2:05:45by clicking that button there
2:05:49and we can also go into a limited 3d
2:05:52mode that actually contains the points
2:05:54itself
2:05:56the difference between this 3d mode
2:05:59and the first product that i showed this
2:06:02is only
2:06:03one single scan this cannot show all of
2:06:06the scans at once to do so you'd have to
2:06:08have a stronger computer
2:06:10and you'd also have the original project
2:06:12point cloud that i showed first
2:06:14the scene2go method is it's a bit more
2:06:18computer friendly
2:06:19it can be loaded on a lot of different
2:06:21computers as long as
2:06:23you essentially if the computer can
2:06:26power on you can probably load this
2:06:28version right here
2:06:29you can load it you can come through and
2:06:31create measurements by creating measure
2:06:33distance
2:06:35and if we wanted to measure the length
2:06:36of this driveway
2:06:38we click one point we click the other
2:06:41and then we click ok
2:06:42and that comes out to 20.811 feet
2:06:46so this is a good deliverable method it
2:06:49still allows some control
2:06:51it just does not allow the complete
2:06:53control as the
2:06:54project point cloud does
2:06:58and in this limited 3d view we can fly
2:07:01around
2:07:02but as we see we can't see the other
2:07:04side of the trailer
2:07:05because this scan did not catch the
2:07:07other side of the trailer so we can only
2:07:09see what that
2:07:10specific scan saw
2:07:14so i'm going to go into my settings so
2:07:17we can see the
2:07:18other scan positions
2:07:27so now we're here we can see
2:07:30the the next scan position so that was
2:07:33scan one
2:07:34we can turn off the 3d if we want go
2:07:36back to just the pictures
2:07:38and then we can pop right over to scan
2:07:40to we can
2:07:42open it up in 3d we can open it up in
2:07:45panorama view which is the picture
2:07:48and then we can also go back to the
2:07:50overview map which was that 2d
2:07:52picture that we saw the first time or if
2:07:55we just double click it
2:07:57it will take us right there
2:08:07these areas that are blacked out that's
2:08:09where the scanner caught
2:08:10if we were standing there that might not
2:08:13have been the
2:08:14direct area we were trying to hit at
2:08:16that point so
2:08:17we were still standing there and you can
2:08:20see we're standing there as well
2:08:27so these black areas are areas where
2:08:30there were points there but the points
2:08:32were not relative to the scene we're
2:08:34trying to show
2:08:35so the points were removed anytime you
2:08:37have points from that were removed
2:08:38it's going to show the the black uh
2:08:42the black areas where there's just no
2:08:43data you can also see there was a truck
2:08:46there at one point
2:08:47that truck was removed
2:08:58just like before we had measurements
2:09:00that we wanted to take we can come over
2:09:04click our measure
2:09:05distance we can see
2:09:10from the edge of the couch to the
2:09:12doorway right there after we hit ok
2:09:144.798 feet from
2:09:17that specific point that was measured
2:09:20the
2:09:20measurements might change a little bit
2:09:22if we were to click a slightly different
2:09:24point
2:09:24if we were an inch off of the points
2:09:27that we clicked the first time
2:09:28the measurement might be an inch off but
2:09:31the actual numerical measurement from
2:09:34this point that we clicked here to that
2:09:36point that we clicked there is always
2:09:37going to be the same
2:09:38every single time if we click that one
2:09:41point
2:09:42over and over again it's never going to
2:09:44change it
2:09:45is it's been scientifically proven that
2:09:48it is accurate
2:09:49down to almost millimeters within
2:09:58millimeters
2:10:02is there a way for you to measure um in
2:10:04the master bedroom the
2:10:06distance essentially the length of the
2:10:08room the distance from the air
2:10:10conditioning unit
2:10:12to the doorway yes yes we can let me get
2:10:15a
2:10:16good scan here that we can see both of
2:10:26those
2:10:34so to the edge of the doorway there it
2:10:36is 11.325 feet
2:10:43and we can continue to go through this
2:10:46um
2:10:46if we would like to see more of the
2:10:48scene we can also just go back to our
2:10:50overview map
2:10:51and then pick whichever scan areas we
2:10:54would like to see
2:10:55if we wanted to come down to see the
2:10:58wooded area where the body was
2:11:00discovered
2:11:01we just double click on it and then we
2:11:04can see the area right here
2:11:10and we can faintly see henderson mill
2:11:13road through the wood line there
2:11:19these are all the questions that i have
2:11:20for you thank you mr carter
2:11:25mr frost
2:11:33you remember i was present for the when
2:11:35you brought it in the first time
2:11:36that's correct i just have a couple very
2:11:38similar questions for you
2:11:40um we had talked that my client was on
2:11:44that sofa
2:11:46yes okay so let me just make sure i've
2:11:48got right the sofa that she was asleep
2:11:50on
2:11:51to the location where kalia was
2:11:55was sleeping which was by the air
2:11:57conditioner that is
2:12:0033.529 feet correct
2:12:02yes we can go back to our previous
2:12:05measurements here
2:12:07and double check that okay
2:12:13will this come up in the in the 3d like
2:12:15overview because
2:12:16my next question's going to have to do
2:12:17with walls so if you wanna i know that
2:12:20you're
2:12:20really good with this so it sounds good
2:12:23so yeah we'll come back to the
2:12:253d overview we'll make these other
2:12:27measurements visible again
2:12:29yes sir so we can see them
2:12:46uh
2:12:49uh so yes 33.529 feet is what that came
2:12:52back to
2:12:53and i don't know if you can tell or if
2:12:56you can go
2:12:56up above like looking down yes
2:13:01from that distance where my client is to
2:13:04where
2:13:04kalia was how many walls are in between
2:13:10that um let's see so the
2:13:14couch is positioned here we can see the
2:13:17outline of this wall
2:13:19there one two
2:13:23three it would be three walls three
2:13:28walls
2:13:34let's see okay
2:13:37thank you very much i appreciate that
2:13:41happy birthday
2:13:45let me get y'all three to come up here
2:13:48for a second
2:13:53we're talking about up here for the
2:13:56defendants to realize
2:13:57and everybody realized we'd already
2:13:59heard testimony that along the trail
2:14:01they found the coat
2:14:03the bong the empty wallet
2:14:08and maybe rolling papers i was curious
2:14:11as to where that
2:14:12was in relationship to where the baby
2:14:14was found
2:14:16because they didn't talk about it out
2:14:17here in all these measurements and
2:14:18everything
2:14:20and i was just told up here at the bench
2:14:22that the reason why
2:14:23is this was done a month after that
2:14:28and those items have been picked up and
2:14:30whereas you had something
2:14:31the log and everything to tell where
2:14:33that was there was nothing to tell where
2:14:36precisely those items were picked up
2:14:39so when we go on our jury view today
2:14:42that's not going to be pointed out to
2:14:43you
2:14:44where those items were found
2:14:48so is everybody clear on all what we
2:14:49talked about up here and
2:14:51what we're all talking about okay any
2:14:53other further questions of this witness
2:14:56you may step down any reason why you
2:14:57might not be excused we'd ask you to be
2:14:58excused
2:14:59no objection excuse me for the
2:15:01attendance on the court
2:15:02take your honor
2:15:06you may call your next witness i should
2:15:09ask this while i go ahead dog love you
2:15:11y'all come up here
2:15:18we're about to next witness is going to
2:15:20be the
2:15:22doctor who performed the autopsy i
2:15:24believe
2:15:25and during the course of this you're
2:15:27going to see pictures of the child
2:15:30that's going to be laid out
2:15:34the
2:15:37i don't quite know how to tell you this
2:15:40we had a whole meeting yesterday with
2:15:42the media and everything to make sure
2:15:44that those images were not going to be
2:15:46shown out onto the internet
2:15:48live streamed or whatever and i'm again
2:15:51instructing the media do not show those
2:15:53pictures
2:15:55i just want to make you all aware of
2:15:57that as
2:15:59jurors the state's producing the
2:16:02pictures
2:16:03trying to prove a point
2:16:06so you have to view the evidence at some
2:16:08time
2:16:10you may choose to do it out here the
2:16:13photographs
2:16:14that are going to be seen are going to
2:16:15be introduced into evidence
2:16:18and so they'll be back with you
2:16:20themselves back in the room
2:16:22okay so is everybody aware of what i'm
2:16:24saying okay
2:16:26you may call your next witness
2:16:29so just pull yourself up to that
2:16:30microphone can you state your name to
2:16:32the record
2:16:33yes my name is laura l-o-r-a dary-saw
2:16:38d-a-r-r-i-s-a-w
2:16:40how are you employed i am employed as
2:16:43the director of pediatric forensic
2:16:45pathology at the georgia borough of
2:16:46investigation
2:16:47okay and what does that mean that means
2:16:49that i am a forensic pathologist
2:16:52and one of my other specialties is
2:16:54pediatric pathology
2:16:56and what are your responsibilities
2:16:57specifically as directed
2:17:00as director my responsibilities are
2:17:02supervising the pediatric depth
2:17:04investigator specialist
2:17:06and also being somewhat of an
2:17:08administrator
2:17:09of the pediatric deaths
2:17:12can you tell the jury about your
2:17:14educational background of course
2:17:16i received my electrical engineering
2:17:18bachelor's degree
2:17:19from marquette university in milwaukee
2:17:22wisconsin
2:17:23following that i did graduate school
2:17:26with studies in molecular biology
2:17:28at the university of missouri in saint
2:17:29louis following that
2:17:31i went to medical school and received my
2:17:33medical doctorate degree from the
2:17:35medical college of wisconsin
2:17:37following that i did four years of
2:17:39residency training in
2:17:40general pathology i then did specialty
2:17:43training in pediatric pathology at
2:17:45baylor college of medicine
2:17:47and following that i did my one year of
2:17:49specialty training in forensic pathology
2:17:52at the gbi through the medical college
2:17:53of georgia
2:17:55and what is forensic pathology forensic
2:17:58pathology
2:18:00is the field of and specialty of
2:18:02pathology
2:18:03that deals with determining cause and
2:18:06manner of death
2:18:07when deaths are sudden and unexpected or
2:18:11a violent nature or suspicious nature
2:18:13and how long have you worked as a
2:18:15medical examiner here in the state of
2:18:16georgia
2:18:17since 2001 july 2001
2:18:20are you board certified yes i am and
2:18:23what exactly
2:18:24i am board certified in anatomic
2:18:26clinical pediatric and forensic
2:18:28pathology
2:18:29and have you testified as an expert in
2:18:31forensic pathology and pediatric
2:18:33forensic pathology
2:18:34before yes i have is that in the state
2:18:36of georgia yes ma'am do you know how
2:18:38many times
2:18:38two hundred and three times okay i'm
2:18:40your honor at this time i attended
2:18:42i'm dr darysol is an expert in forensic
2:18:44pathology and pediatric forensic coach
2:18:46should be a minute to testify in those
2:18:48areas as an expert
2:18:50as a part of your duties i guess you
2:18:52said you perform autopsies
2:18:54that's correct can you explain what an
2:18:56autopsy is uh
2:18:57absolutely an autopsy is an examination
2:18:59of a dead person
2:19:00it's um involves two different parts
2:19:03one part is the external examination and
2:19:06the external examination would be very
2:19:08similar to
2:19:09an exam that a doctor would give you and
2:19:11i as living individuals
2:19:14that would include getting a height and
2:19:16weight
2:19:18talking about the external features of
2:19:20the body and describing those
2:19:22if there are any things notable on the
2:19:25external exam such as physical
2:19:27features identifying marks and scars or
2:19:30injuries those are described in the
2:19:33external examination
2:19:35in the internal examination the organs
2:19:38of the body are removed and those
2:19:40are looked at for the same purpose to
2:19:42describe them
2:19:43and if there are any notable findings
2:19:45such as a natural disease process or an
2:19:48injury those are described approximately
2:19:51how many autopsies have you performed in
2:19:52your career
2:19:54to date i've performed 5161 autopsies
2:19:59after you complete an autopsy do you
2:20:00always write a report that's correct
2:20:03okay can you explain the location where
2:20:05you perform these autopsies
2:20:07i perform the autopsies at the
2:20:09headquarters
2:20:10facility of the gbi in decatur georgia
2:20:14did you perform an autopsy on kalia
2:20:16mcnabb
2:20:17yes i did and do you remember when that
2:20:19autopsy was performed that was on
2:20:20october 9th
2:20:212017. at the time that worked i'm sorry
2:20:25i'll report my report yes ma'am monday
2:20:27october 9th 2017.
2:20:30and at the time of conducting this
2:20:31autopsy were you aware of what the
2:20:33initial allegations with regard
2:20:35to how the child died our office
2:20:38received
2:20:39information concerning the circumstances
2:20:42of the death and that's true in
2:20:43all cases that we have so yes i was
2:20:46aware of the circumstances surrounding
2:20:48the death and how the
2:20:49body was found and you sort of
2:20:53described the process of an autopsy
2:20:56or you did describe the process of an
2:20:57autopsy uh is that the same for
2:21:00an autopsy of a child uh yes
2:21:05during um you're performing with an
2:21:07autopsy do you document
2:21:08that with photographs that's correct and
2:21:10did you do that in this case
2:21:12yes ma'am
2:21:22i approached the witness going to show
2:21:26you what's been marked
2:21:27estates exhibits 91 through 121.
2:21:30um if you can flip through those and let
2:21:31me know if you recognize those
2:21:52uh
2:22:22yes i do how do you recognize those uh
2:22:25those are
2:22:26photographs taken at the time of the
2:22:27autopsy and ours
2:22:30the placards with our specific number
2:22:31for that case are also in the
2:22:33photographs
2:22:34okay and are these code is fair and
2:22:35accurate depiction of sort of the
2:22:36process of your autopsy on that day
2:22:38that's correct
2:22:38okay you're on our tender state states
2:22:40exhibit 91 through 121 at this time
2:22:44committed without objection
2:23:03um you indicated that you performed an
2:23:04autopsy on the body of colleen mcnabb
2:23:06what condition
2:23:07did you receive the body in uh when the
2:23:10body was initially received
2:23:11it was obviously in a body bag as all of
2:23:13our cases are
2:23:14and within that body bag the actual
2:23:18body was within a drawstring
2:23:21athletic type bag and it was wrapped in
2:23:24a blanket and
2:23:25a shirt and was wearing a infant shirt
2:23:28and a diaper
2:23:29okay i'm going to show you what's been
2:23:35i'm going to show you what's been
2:23:36previously marked to the state's exhibit
2:23:3791.
2:23:39do you recognize that i'm sorry what is
2:23:40this uh this is a photograph
2:23:43of the outside of the white
2:23:46body back that the body was in it has
2:23:49the the tags on there with
2:23:51identification of the body and then of
2:23:52course the placard there is our
2:23:54specific case number for this case okay
2:23:57i'm going to show you states exhibit 92
2:23:59what does this photo
2:24:00depict this is a photograph of
2:24:04the initial opening of the body bag and
2:24:07you can see there this is a
2:24:09blue and red nike
2:24:12let's do bag 93 what does that depict
2:24:17that's correct is that the same that yes
2:24:20that's the bag that the body was in
2:24:22you can see the blue michael jordan
2:24:25logo with flight back so an athletic
2:24:28drawstring bag was what the body was
2:24:30actually in
2:24:31okay and six exhibit 94 is that just the
2:24:34opposite side of that bag
2:24:35that's correct okay and do you make a
2:24:37point to sort of photograph
2:24:38every part of anything that you see
2:24:40during the autopsy
2:24:42uh not everything but obviously when the
2:24:44body is received in uh
2:24:47this type of um environment we would
2:24:49take a picture of all the surfaces
2:24:51okay let me show you states exhibit 95.
2:24:55you told me i was depicted in this photo
2:24:57this is a photograph
2:24:58of just upon opening the top portion of
2:25:01this drawstring bag that's a
2:25:03light blue blanket that the body was
2:25:06wrapped in
2:25:10states exhibit 96
2:25:14what is depicted in that photo uh this
2:25:16documents how the
2:25:17body is wrapped in this blanket this is
2:25:19after
2:25:21this blanket with the body wrapped
2:25:23within it is removed from the drawstring
2:25:26athletic bag and states exhibit 97 is
2:25:30that just the other side of the
2:25:32blanket yes ma'am
2:25:36states exhibit 98 what is what's
2:25:37depicted in that photo
2:25:39uh this is depicting a defect or
2:25:42some sort of a tear that was in that
2:25:44blanket and that's just
2:25:45showing that area right there so the
2:25:48body is wrapped in this
2:25:50blanket and then there is a tear in that
2:25:52blanket
2:25:53okay i'm going to show you states
2:25:55exhibit 99.
2:25:58you told me what's depicted in this
2:25:59photo uh this is a photograph
2:26:01showing up on unwrapping the blanket
2:26:04this item that is over the
2:26:08the head and the upper portion of the
2:26:11body
2:26:11is a gray sleeveless adult t-shirt
2:26:15and that is over the top of the the baby
2:26:18okay is this what you saw immediately
2:26:21after you removed the blanket
2:26:22that's correct it's it's exhibit 100.
2:26:27this is a photograph just showing the
2:26:29blanket i've laid out the blanket and
2:26:31you can see some patchy bloody type
2:26:34stains on the blanket presumably
2:26:36bloody stains and the tear in the the
2:26:38blanket
2:26:41and state's exhibit 101 what is depicted
2:26:44in that photo
2:26:46this is showing another angle of this
2:26:48shirt on top of the
2:26:51or i should say over on the body
2:26:56the state's exhibit 102 was depicted in
2:26:58this photo
2:26:59this is documenting how this sleeveless
2:27:02shirt
2:27:02is on the baby it was partially or
2:27:05it's a sleeveless shirt it's like one of
2:27:07these sleeveless tank top shirts
2:27:09one sleeve of the shirt was over the
2:27:11head and neck
2:27:13and the rest of it was just kind of
2:27:15wrapped around the body okay and you
2:27:17indicated that one of the sleeves is
2:27:18wrapped around the neck is that what's
2:27:19depicted in the states because
2:27:21103. yeah so it's kind of pulled over
2:27:24the head and partially over the neck
2:27:30all right let me show you exhibit 104.
2:27:34can you tell me what's depicted in that
2:27:36photo okay all of these photos are just
2:27:39step by step showing how the body was
2:27:41received and these
2:27:42wrappings of how the body was received
2:27:45again this shows that
2:27:46one of the sleeves was over the head and
2:27:48neck the rest of it was just kind of
2:27:51wrapped around
2:27:52and the baby was wearing this
2:27:55purple onesie that had writing on it as
2:27:58well as a diaper
2:27:59can you um tell us what that writing
2:28:01says i didn't document it in my report i
2:28:04would have to try to
2:28:04read it from here um i'm sorry
2:28:08oh i'm sorry stay away boys
2:28:12what does that say
2:28:15my daddy works out looks like
2:28:19all right i'm gonna show you states
2:28:20exhibit 105.
2:28:25and are all these photos just a series
2:28:26of you unwrapping
2:28:28that's correct okay and so um i guess
2:28:30what is depicted in this photo
2:28:32so now this is after all the the bag is
2:28:34removed all the coverings are removed
2:28:36and this is
2:28:38how the baby was dressed with this
2:28:41onesie on and there was also a diaper on
2:28:44okay
2:28:46and states exhibit 106. what's depicted
2:28:49in this photo
2:28:50this is a photograph after i've removed
2:28:53the onesie outfit
2:28:55and opened the diaper you can see
2:28:57there's a small amount of
2:29:00tan presumably fecal type staining in
2:29:02the diaper itself
2:29:04okay and i guess at this point you can
2:29:06sort of see where the injuries
2:29:08are to this child's body is that correct
2:29:10yes okay
2:29:11um and where i guess is there a location
2:29:13that they're more focused on
2:29:14yes the far majority of involve the head
2:29:17okay
2:29:19i'll show you states exhibit 107.
2:29:22what's depicted in this photo this would
2:29:25be a typical routine photograph that we
2:29:27would take as a the nude body of a child
2:29:30this is a front surface okay
2:29:34and i guess at this point what do you
2:29:35note about the
2:29:38the head region of the child well what's
2:29:41most notable the head is enlarged
2:29:44um visually
2:29:48by filling the head it was very soft and
2:29:51you could feel there was already broken
2:29:53bones just by palpation of the head
2:29:55you can see that there are injuries of
2:29:57the face
2:29:58and the green discoloration of the head
2:30:02is representing some decomposition
2:30:05that's taking place
2:30:06um on this external body there's also a
2:30:09little bit of green disgust
2:30:10discoloration of the lower abdomen so
2:30:13there's some
2:30:14decomposition of this body at this point
2:30:16in time
2:30:19i'm going to show you states exhibit
2:30:20108.
2:30:23what does that depict and so this is the
2:30:25the posterior or the back surface of the
2:30:27nude body after all the clothing is
2:30:30removed kind of clean everything's
2:30:31cleaned up for the photograph
2:30:33okay and did you notice any injuries to
2:30:34the back side of this child
2:30:37not on the back or the arms or the legs
2:30:39no ma'am okay
2:30:47okay i'm going to show you what's been
2:30:48marked as states exhibit 109
2:30:56what is depicted in this photo
2:31:00so all these subsequent photos that
2:31:02photographs that we'll see
2:31:03are photographs that document the
2:31:05injuries that i
2:31:06noted at the time of autopsy uh you can
2:31:09see the eyes are closed and just
2:31:10underneath the right eye is a
2:31:14cut this horizontal cut just underneath
2:31:17the eye
2:31:18okay and i guess are there different
2:31:21types of
2:31:22cuts that a person can receive yeah
2:31:25for the purposes of just using a light
2:31:26men's term i call it a cut i described
2:31:28it in my autopsy report as an
2:31:30in-sized wound because it looks like it
2:31:33has very clean edges
2:31:36that it may have been made by a sharp
2:31:38object
2:31:39you can also have complete full
2:31:41thickness cuts
2:31:43in a skin if you have a blunt impact if
2:31:46you hit your
2:31:48um a portion of your body hard enough it
2:31:50can certainly break the skin
2:31:51um that we would call a laceration as
2:31:54opposed to a cut and there are some
2:31:56different features of those type of full
2:31:58thickness defects in the body
2:32:01i'm not exactly sure how this wound was
2:32:04caused but it doesn't have the features
2:32:07of a laceration that would be caused by
2:32:10a blunt impact
2:32:11it has features of a sharp object going
2:32:14through that part of the skin
2:32:18all right and states exhibit 106.
2:32:20there's a little bit of a glare
2:32:24i guess what is depicted 110 i'm sorry
2:32:28um what's depicted in this photo i'm not
2:32:31sure if you can see it but the
2:32:33um what's depicted is the injury of the
2:32:36mouth they're the small little teeth
2:32:37that you can see there
2:32:39this was can you see how old is she
2:32:42eight days
2:32:48i'm sorry uh 14 days um what i have is
2:32:50fourteen the
2:32:51this is a 14 day old infant so obviously
2:32:53there's no
2:32:54teeth that are erupted in a 14 day old
2:32:58but we all have
2:32:59our teeth inside the gum called
2:33:01deciduous teeth
2:33:02so in this particular case the deciduous
2:33:04teeth had come
2:33:06out because of a laceration to the upper
2:33:08gums
2:33:09so that's the picture just showing the
2:33:11teeth that you can see
2:33:12in the mouth okay and can you also i
2:33:15guess what is depicted sort of
2:33:16in this area is there any sort of
2:33:18indentation
2:33:20well it's there are some we'll see later
2:33:22in pictures there are numerous fractures
2:33:23of the skull
2:33:24and that is you can see in this
2:33:26photograph some of what of a
2:33:28indentation from the fractures that are
2:33:32not evident until
2:33:33the scalp is actually reflected
2:33:36in states exhibit 111.
2:33:40describe what's depicted in that uh this
2:33:43shows a bruise on the left side of the
2:33:46cheek the red and tan
2:33:48colored bruise on the left side of the
2:33:49cheek as well as along the
2:33:51jawline and are you ever able ever able
2:33:55to determine with certainty how old a
2:33:57bruise
2:33:58is no not with a great deal of certainty
2:34:01not especially just looking at it with
2:34:03the naked eye
2:34:04um oftentimes we'll try to take a little
2:34:07sample of the bruise a punch biopsy
2:34:10to look at it under the microscope to
2:34:11get an idea of a general idea is it
2:34:14fresh is it
2:34:14starting to heal but not a specific time
2:34:17frame
2:34:18okay let me show you states exhibit 112.
2:34:23tell me what's depicted in this photo uh
2:34:25in this photograph you can see a little
2:34:27bit better than in the previous
2:34:29photograph both of the bruises the one
2:34:31on the left cheek and the one on the
2:34:32left lateral side of the face along the
2:34:34jawline
2:34:37states exhibit 113 is that a closer up
2:34:39photo of sort of
2:34:41the teeth um um and i guess
2:34:45well let me move to state's exhibit 114
2:34:48what is depicted in that photo uh this
2:34:51is a photograph
2:34:52of the upper can i see the picture
2:34:56actually it's
2:34:58probably the upper lip pulled up but let
2:35:00me just confirm that
2:35:05oh yeah
2:35:13so what is that so just under the ruler
2:35:15with the number is obviously the chin
2:35:17this is uh the me pulling up the upper
2:35:20lip you can see the laceration or the
2:35:22defects in the gum and along the
2:35:24frenulum the little tag of skin in the
2:35:26center of the lip
2:35:28um and that's where the teeth have come
2:35:30out of because that's where the
2:35:31deciduous teeth kind of rest up inside
2:35:33the mouth
2:35:34and i guess do you have any idea what
2:35:35could have caused that sort of
2:35:37trauma a very hard force to the mouth
2:35:40and there there's
2:35:41a lot of injuries of the head that we
2:35:43can see and with
2:35:44the huge amount of impact to the head
2:35:46that resulted in
2:35:48all the fractures um that is certainly
2:35:50an injury that could have resulted along
2:35:52with that impact
2:35:55exhibit 115. it's depicted in this photo
2:36:01this is a photograph of the open
2:36:04mouth and it's kind of dark inside
2:36:07obviously to be able to get this picture
2:36:08but the palette the upper palette has a
2:36:11laceration that is
2:36:12extends from the front to the back so
2:36:15the middle of the palette is completely
2:36:18lacerated
2:36:19and would that also be caused by that
2:36:21impact that you described
2:36:23correct i'll show you states exhibit
2:36:26116.
2:36:27what's depicted in this photo this is a
2:36:30photograph of the left side of the face
2:36:32we've we've seen this bruise on the left
2:36:34side of the jawline before but this is
2:36:36just kind of showing
2:36:37that again but it's also showing just
2:36:40the
2:36:40entire profile of the on the head
2:36:44and you can see i mean it's obviously
2:36:46not the normal shape of an
2:36:48infant of this age it's um elongated
2:36:53it's larger than normal that's by
2:36:55looking at it by me feeling it again
2:36:58it's
2:36:58there's palpable fractures
2:37:02and you have described the injuries to
2:37:04your head that you can see from the
2:37:05external exam and you described an
2:37:08internal exam
2:37:09earlier did you do an internal exam on
2:37:11this child that's correct i did
2:37:12okay um and i guess can you go
2:37:16can you go into more detail about what
2:37:17the internal exam requires
2:37:20uh the internal exam so there's internal
2:37:22exam of the head as well as the body so
2:37:25starting with the body the internal exam
2:37:27would include making a y-shaped incision
2:37:29on the chest and abdomen
2:37:31reflecting the skin and then the organs
2:37:33in the chest cavity and the abdominal
2:37:35cavity are removed
2:37:36they're looked at for the head an
2:37:38incision is made from
2:37:40behind both ears and then after doing
2:37:43that the skin can be reflected so it
2:37:46will be similar to like pulling back the
2:37:49sheet or covers on your bed at one point
2:37:52you see the outside and when you pull it
2:37:53back
2:37:54you see the inside so once that incision
2:37:56is made the front part of the scalp is
2:37:58pulled forward
2:37:59the back part is pulled back and then
2:38:00you see the internal surface of the
2:38:03scalp
2:38:03as well as the skull and does that help
2:38:06you to see the extent of the injuries
2:38:08correct okay would it help to explain
2:38:11explain to the jury the extent
2:38:12and nature of the injuries if we
2:38:16showed a picture of the reflected skull
2:38:19the reflected scalp yes man
2:38:22i'm going to show you what's been marked
2:38:23as states exhibit 117
2:38:27and what is depicted in this photo so
2:38:29this is a photograph
2:38:31of the reflected scalp you can see
2:38:34the the cut line along the skin which i
2:38:37indicated is from ear to ear
2:38:39the front portion of the scalp is pulled
2:38:41forward the back portion is pulled
2:38:43backward
2:38:44um this is the initial cut and
2:38:47reflection
2:38:48and so in this cut you can see there's a
2:38:50big hole
2:38:51in the that should not be there that
2:38:54should be the
2:38:55skull all intact but in this particular
2:38:57instance there were multiple
2:38:59fractures of the skull and so some of
2:39:02the pieces of the skull are just held
2:39:03together by what's called the
2:39:05the periosteum which is a very thin
2:39:08layer of soft tissue over the skull but
2:39:11so basically there's lots of fractures
2:39:13there's the open defect in the skull
2:39:16from displaced
2:39:17portions of bones being displaced kind
2:39:19of inside
2:39:21that hole i'm going to show you what's
2:39:24been market states exhibit 118
2:39:27what is depicted in this photo so
2:39:30through the course of the autopsy and
2:39:31cleaning up everything i've taken
2:39:34the most of these portions of skull are
2:39:37displaced already and as i mentioned
2:39:39they're kind of just held together by
2:39:40thin
2:39:41strands of soft tissue these are some of
2:39:44the
2:39:45pictures of bones that were
2:39:48essentially displaced but then
2:39:51individually to
2:39:52their fractures along the fragments
2:39:58is that just more of those bones that's
2:40:01correct and this is um
2:40:02looking at the inner surface of the
2:40:04skull um
2:40:06most notably on this one to our
2:40:09right and in the front of it that's a
2:40:13portion of the orbital plate
2:40:15so the the bones that cover the
2:40:18back of the eyes so there were orbital
2:40:20plate fractures and you can see a
2:40:21portion of the orbital plate has been
2:40:23displaced
2:40:24with this two fragments of bone that in
2:40:27each of them there are also linear
2:40:28fractures
2:40:30and was there anything once you got into
2:40:33the skull
2:40:34was there anything about the brain that
2:40:35you um noted
2:40:38well the brain was essentially not
2:40:40formed at all for a 14 day old child the
2:40:42brain
2:40:43is formed it's it looks like a brain is
2:40:45formed like a brain it has a lot more
2:40:48water content than our brain so it's a
2:40:50little bit
2:40:51softer i would say like a jelly mold
2:40:54than our brain being more firm but
2:40:56you can see the structures of the brain
2:40:58it is well formed in this case
2:41:01there was no well-formed brain at all it
2:41:03was mostly almost liquidified
2:41:05at this point there was a lot of blood
2:41:08in the skull cavity and the brain itself
2:41:12was
2:41:12not recognizable as a brain it was just
2:41:14mostly liquid
2:41:16inside of the skull i'm going to show
2:41:18you states exhibit 120 is that what's
2:41:20depicted in this photo
2:41:22that's correct okay so there's really no
2:41:24well-formed brain at all
2:41:26part of this has to do with yeah there's
2:41:28a lot of trauma of the brain but then
2:41:29there's some decomposition as well
2:41:32the head is a lot more decomposed in
2:41:35this child than the rest of the body and
2:41:36we saw that on the external
2:41:38and that's because there's a lot of
2:41:40trauma to the
2:41:42head and brain and that's that would be
2:41:44true in most cases of decomposition any
2:41:47area of
2:41:48trauma would decompose faster than
2:41:50intact body
2:41:52okay and what what did you do with that
2:41:55uh the only thing i was able to do since
2:41:57most of this was all they could
2:41:58was just kind of scoop it out and pour
2:42:00it out into a
2:42:01container 121
2:42:06that's correct that's that's the brain
2:42:08and the blood and everything that was in
2:42:10the skull cavity
2:42:18do you review medical records of i guess
2:42:21the patients that come in or the bodies
2:42:22that you receive
2:42:24uh yes um not on everyone but
2:42:28on all children um cases um
2:42:31yes we will request medical records and
2:42:34review the medical records birth records
2:42:36pediatrician records
2:42:37so that would be the case in pediatric
2:42:40autopsy
2:42:40sorry did you do that in this case yes i
2:42:42did okay did you review her birth
2:42:44records
2:42:45as well as records from a doctor's visit
2:42:49yes there were birth records and i
2:42:50believe there was only one pediatrician
2:42:52visit at that point in time and i guess
2:42:55what did those records reveal
2:42:57uh the records revealed that the birth
2:43:00there were no complications with the
2:43:01birth the child went home without any
2:43:03complications there was no indication of
2:43:05any
2:43:06natural disease of the child when she
2:43:08went home
2:43:09and then i believe and let me refer to
2:43:12my report that
2:43:14the one doctor's visit was
2:43:18two days prior to her death
2:43:26yes the one pediatrician visit was two
2:43:28days prior to her death
2:43:30the doctor noted that the right foot was
2:43:33somewhat
2:43:34inwardly turned
2:43:39and she also noted a small patch and
2:43:42this is in quote small patch of blue
2:43:45discoloration of the left cheek
2:43:47nothing otherwise it was noted okay
2:43:50if those things like been a contributing
2:43:53factor to her death
2:43:56no ma'am um and we see on csi
2:43:59sometimes they're able to pin down
2:44:01basically the exact moment
2:44:02that someone passed away are you
2:44:04actually able to do that
2:44:05i love that part about television but
2:44:08we're not able to do that
2:44:10in real life and what is the primary
2:44:12purpose of conducting an autopsy
2:44:15the primary person's purpose of
2:44:18performing an autopsy
2:44:19is then to make a diagnosis and the
2:44:21diagnosis in the
2:44:22case of an autopsy is the cause of death
2:44:25and then we also
2:44:26make a determination of the manner of
2:44:28death
2:44:29can you explain the difference between
2:44:31those two things
2:44:33yes the cause of death is really
2:44:36a what is answering the question of what
2:44:39what is it what is the event
2:44:41that actually led to all of the
2:44:44physiologic changes
2:44:46that led to the death and so what events
2:44:49may be things like coronary artery
2:44:52disease that caused a heart attack
2:44:54a what event may be a gunshot wound to
2:44:57the head
2:44:58of what event may be a strangulation so
2:45:01those are things like the what
2:45:03um and you ask about manner now the
2:45:06manner of death is
2:45:06how the death came about is very um
2:45:10circumstance dependent um and there are
2:45:13five manners of death
2:45:15one being homicide that is when the
2:45:17death is caused by the actions of
2:45:19another
2:45:20suicide is when the death comes about by
2:45:22one's own actions
2:45:24accident would be a manner in which it's
2:45:27an accident it's some inadvertent event
2:45:29such as a motor vehicle accident
2:45:32natural is a manner in which the what is
2:45:34a natural disease process that led to
2:45:36the death
2:45:37and in the absence of being able to
2:45:39definitively determine
2:45:41either one of those four the manner
2:45:43would be
2:45:44certified as undetermined and were you
2:45:46able to determine a cause and manner of
2:45:48death in this
2:45:50case yes it was okay and what was that
2:45:52cause of death
2:45:54the cause of death was brought impact
2:45:55injuries of the head okay what was the
2:45:57matter of death
2:45:58the manner of death was certified as
2:45:59homicide
2:46:01and the types of injuries that we
2:46:03observed on kalia
2:46:04to her head would those injuries have
2:46:06caused a lot of blood spatter
2:46:09no ma'am it's it's basically what's
2:46:11called a closed head injury
2:46:13now the only open wound that she had was
2:46:16this this cut that we looked at
2:46:19on the right cheek and then she had the
2:46:22open wounds and cuts in her mouth
2:46:24as well those obviously may cause a
2:46:26little bit of blood but
2:46:27from the extensive head trauma with the
2:46:30skull fractures there's really no blood
2:46:32coming out of her
2:46:34scalp because it's closed okay and the
2:46:36injuries to her mouth and her face
2:46:38would that amount of blood been
2:46:39consistent have been consistent with
2:46:41the blood that you noticed on the
2:46:43clothing and the blanket
2:46:45yes it could have been yes
2:46:49mr carter
2:46:56how are you okay uh we spoke week or two
2:46:58ago is that right
2:46:59that's correct uh i'm anthony carter but
2:47:02yes um we talked about the fact that uh
2:47:07an injury like this uh could be caused
2:47:09by
2:47:10a series of blows with some object is
2:47:14that is that fair
2:47:15that's correct it could also be caused
2:47:17by
2:47:19maybe a foot like a stomping where once
2:47:22when one one part of a head would be
2:47:23on a hard surface and a foot or some
2:47:26other object
2:47:27crushed her head yeah we talked about
2:47:29that that it's you know it could be
2:47:31very much a crushing injury okay and if
2:47:34we had other circumstances it's possible
2:47:36that
2:47:36uh possibly a television uh would have
2:47:39fallen on top of her and that would be
2:47:41that would you would see injuries like
2:47:42this if that would have happened yeah i
2:47:44would say cr
2:47:45with with the idea that these injuries
2:47:48could very well be a crushing
2:47:50type of trauma you know crushing could
2:47:53come from a heavy object
2:47:55falling on top and crushing the head or
2:47:57foot stomping the head or something like
2:47:59that yes sir but from what you can tell
2:48:00that's the type of injury
2:48:02we have is something of that nature yes
2:48:05um and given the fact that um the cut on
2:48:08the cheek
2:48:09is very precise and has clean edges
2:48:12um there may or may not have been
2:48:14something that struck her
2:48:15in this area that would have
2:48:18caused a cut instead of a laceration
2:48:21yeah that's what it looks like yeah
2:48:23it certainly could be if if this is a
2:48:25crushing type thing
2:48:26it certainly could be the skin splitting
2:48:28from the significant
2:48:29crushing um and you know the over
2:48:32orbital plate is behind there
2:48:34so the bone i'm not really sure how it
2:48:36happened but in a crushing event you can
2:48:38certainly explain it
2:48:39by the skin splitting from the
2:48:41significance
2:48:42of the force with uh a crushing event
2:48:45okay and the the cuts on her gum they're
2:48:48not necessarily you know
2:48:49there wasn't a sharp object that made
2:48:50those cuts this is just from pressure
2:48:52the t
2:48:53of the teeth coming down and things of
2:48:54that nature is that correct yeah the
2:48:56injuries to the mouth i described is
2:48:57those are lacerations those are from one
2:48:59impact as opposed to
2:49:01a incised event yeah and the cut on the
2:49:04palate is the same thing it's caused by
2:49:07just pressure as opposed to a sharp
2:49:09object
2:49:10actually cutting is that is that it's a
2:49:12laceration it's caused by blunt force
2:49:15and i understand what it lasts right
2:49:16there between laceration in the cut yeah
2:49:17that's what i'm trying i'm trying to
2:49:18describe that
2:49:19so a laceration where you have a split
2:49:21in a either
2:49:22a mouth is from blunt force something
2:49:25that
2:49:26strikes something really hard or a crush
2:49:28as opposed to when we describe
2:49:30a when we actually use the word cut
2:49:33we're talking about a sharp
2:49:34object going across it as opposed to a
2:49:36blunt impact causing the skin to open
2:49:39right that's the difference between a
2:49:40laceration and an incised
2:49:42wound or a cut right if this if the
2:49:45screen right here were to fall a few
2:49:46feet under my arm it's going to cause a
2:49:48laceration it's going to cause the skin
2:49:50to split apart
2:49:51but if the actual glass from it came
2:49:54across my arm it's going to cause a cut
2:49:56exactly so that that's that's how you
2:49:59decipher or those two okay
2:50:02and they look differently okay to a
2:50:04pathologist right
2:50:05and you you didn't just look at the the
2:50:07head you looked at the whole body for
2:50:09disease
2:50:10other injuries things of that nature
2:50:11correct that's correct so
2:50:13obviously the notable findings in this
2:50:15autopsy was the significant head trauma
2:50:18but the
2:50:18other notable finding was the absence of
2:50:21any natural disease
2:50:22process that would that caused the death
2:50:24okay and you noted that there were no
2:50:27injuries that you could call
2:50:28pre-existing
2:50:30uh that's correct uh there you didn't
2:50:33find any
2:50:34healing bruises healing broken bones
2:50:35things of that nature
2:50:37correct so whatever happened to her
2:50:40happened coincidentally with the
2:50:43crushing that whatever happened
2:50:45all the injuries occurred and generally
2:50:47the same time yeah i'd use the word
2:50:48contemporaneous so she sustained this
2:50:50extensive
2:50:51head trauma and then died and the death
2:50:54would be
2:50:55relatively rapidly with this significant
2:50:57degree of injury
2:50:58okay so the the people who found the
2:51:01body were able to preserve
2:51:03the the status of the body in other
2:51:05words they were able to
2:51:06keep her in the same blanket the same
2:51:08bag that she was found in
2:51:10and that's helpful for you to understand
2:51:12what happened to her is it not
2:51:14that's correct all right so
2:51:18even though those that that was
2:51:20preserved
2:51:21you're still not able to say with any um
2:51:24any bit of certainty whether she was
2:51:26killed while she was inside the bag
2:51:28or whether she was killed outside of the
2:51:30bag is that fair
2:51:33are you asking when she sustained the
2:51:34head trauma whether she was in or
2:51:36outside the bat
2:51:36yes no she sustained the head trauma
2:51:39obviously while she's alive
2:51:40and so she wasn't placed in the bag and
2:51:43then died of some
2:51:45exfixia not being able to breathe and
2:51:47then
2:51:48sustain this head trauma if she were in
2:51:50the back she would be alive in the back
2:51:52and sustain the trauma but you can't
2:51:54you're not able to determine whether she
2:51:56was
2:51:56she sustained this trauma to her head
2:51:58and then was placed into the bag
2:52:00or whether she was placed into the bag
2:52:03with all the
2:52:04surrounding clothes and then the trauma
2:52:06occurred you're not able to determine
2:52:08that
2:52:09uh no not with any certainty the autopsy
2:52:11wouldn't
2:52:12help you determine that right except for
2:52:14the fact if
2:52:15if an infinite this age is all wrapped
2:52:17up in all those
2:52:18that shirt and in the blanket and then
2:52:20placing it back she'd likely die
2:52:21of an asphyxia pretty rapidly right
2:52:24right
2:52:24she yeah right with all those things
2:52:27inside that bag she would have
2:52:28suffocated
2:52:29you can determine that she did not
2:52:31suffocate she was still alive she was
2:52:33her blood was pumping whenever she
2:52:35sustained the head injury
2:52:37that is correct okay but if she was only
2:52:40in the bag for a short time and the
2:52:42injury occurred
2:52:43you can't rule that out that's correct
2:52:45yeah yeah nothing in the autopsy would
2:52:46allow me to do
2:52:47such okay when a person
2:52:51dies when they stop breathing and i know
2:52:53it would depend on how they died but
2:52:54say it's from trauma the body
2:52:58will start decomposing at some point is
2:53:01that
2:53:01correct well yes it depends on the
2:53:04environment that you're at if you're in
2:53:05a really cold environment
2:53:07obviously at some point it would take a
2:53:08lot longer than in a warmer environment
2:53:10so it's very dependent upon
2:53:14a couple of things the person themselves
2:53:16their age and
2:53:17physical condition it's also dependent
2:53:20upon
2:53:21the the way that the person died if a
2:53:24person dies of an ex
2:53:25significant infectious process for
2:53:28instance the decomposition would occur
2:53:32sooner than later and then also the
2:53:34external environment so those are the
2:53:36three factors
2:53:37okay and uh do you record recall again
2:53:40what day you did the up perform in the
2:53:42autopsy
2:53:42i performed the autopsy on monday
2:53:44october 9th 2017.
2:53:46right and her body once the body was
2:53:48recovered it would have been
2:53:50cooled uh to some extent um
2:53:53once they got to your office is that
2:53:55fair yes they're coupling and cooler at
2:53:57our facility yes
2:53:58so if you did the autopsy on the 10th
2:54:01the ninth
2:54:02i'm sorry the ninth uh if she went
2:54:04missing on the seventh
2:54:05and her body was found on the eighth was
2:54:07the amount of decomposition that she
2:54:09found
2:54:09consistent with between 24 and 48 hours
2:54:13of death now i would say so yes and
2:54:16as you saw most of the body was
2:54:18preserved there was just
2:54:20slight green discoloration in the
2:54:21abdomen and that's
2:54:23pretty early on that you see
2:54:24decomposition and then the
2:54:26more significant green color of the head
2:54:28was because of the fact that she had the
2:54:30significant head trauma
2:54:31okay and when a body decomposes is there
2:54:34a certain
2:54:35odor that it gives off so it may it kind
2:54:38of depends
2:54:39uh again on all of those factors that i
2:54:41talked about before the
2:54:43actual physical condition of the person
2:54:44the age of the person as well as the
2:54:46external environment okay um obviously
2:54:50as
2:54:50decomposition gets more extreme
2:54:54there may be an older do you have any
2:54:55opinion on how long it will generally
2:54:57take for
2:54:58the odor to be noticeable i do not know
2:55:02sir okay now again finding the
2:55:05the body inside the bag helped you um
2:55:10helped maintain a pristine environment
2:55:13so that you can tell from
2:55:14their other factors there are other
2:55:16things that you can tell things from is
2:55:17that
2:55:17is that correct i don't necessarily
2:55:20understand the questions
2:55:21can you repeat it yes now i'm going to
2:55:23show you what's been marked
2:55:24as states exhibit 106.
2:55:30now even once you
2:55:34once you took all the things off of the
2:55:36child
2:55:37the things that were wrapped around her
2:55:39and everything when you took the diaper
2:55:41off
2:55:41there's still a significant amount of
2:55:44leaf material
2:55:48attached to her body and inside this
2:55:51little bag
2:55:52is that correct that's correct now that
2:55:55material
2:55:55was on her that didn't come
2:56:00that wasn't contamination from the
2:56:01things you took off of her those things
2:56:03were on her from the beginning of the
2:56:05autopsy is that correct
2:56:07i'm not sure actually i would probably
2:56:08have to see the pictures open it
2:56:11because obviously as you saw in the
2:56:13stepwise pictures
2:56:14we're taking all of the stuff off in the
2:56:16bag so
2:56:17i'm not really sure if some of that is
2:56:20external
2:56:20and now in the bag and on the body or i
2:56:23would have to see the
2:56:24sequential pictures okay so let me start
2:56:26with uh
2:56:27state's exhibit 92 uh there's not a
2:56:31there's some some material here that you
2:56:34can see is that correct
2:56:35yeah not a lot of leafy stuff in the bag
2:56:37at this point in time
2:56:38the white body bag and then in
2:56:42states exhibit 93 again there's not as
2:56:45much
2:56:45material in the white bag as you saw
2:56:48later on that's correct
2:56:51going through 94 95
2:56:55yeah let's go let's go back to that 95
2:56:58okay so now we're starting to see some
2:57:00some leafy
2:57:01debris on the surface of this blanket
2:57:05okay
2:57:06right so we can we can determine now
2:57:08that probably
2:57:10uh inside the bag there was some leafy
2:57:12debris that's correct
2:57:15and there's more leafy debris on the
2:57:16outside of the white correct
2:57:18blanket right i believe people describe
2:57:20this as blue it looks white on here but
2:57:22it's actually like i described it as a
2:57:23light blue is that it's a light blue
2:57:25blanket
2:57:27and so again we're seeing as you open
2:57:31up we're getting more and more
2:57:34debris that's correct
2:57:37um and as we can see in stage 99
2:57:40uh we get to a point where that we're
2:57:43talking about the
2:57:44green tea gray t-shirt that's overhead
2:57:49and we're not seeing as much debris
2:57:50again
2:57:53yeah a lot of it looks to be on this
2:57:54outer surface of this blanket
2:57:57because now we've got this some having
2:58:00fallen off into the white body back
2:58:04103. again there's their leaves on their
2:58:05neck now they're yes sir
2:58:07so so we are finding as we unveil that
2:58:10there are
2:58:11pre there there's debris on the body
2:58:14basically as you're unwrapping that's
2:58:16correct
2:58:18now would that lead you to believe
2:58:21that the child was killed
2:58:24somewhere where leaves and debris of
2:58:26this sort were present
2:58:27and then wrapped up well i can't make
2:58:31any determination
2:58:32of where she was killed it may uh
2:58:35suggest
2:58:35that this is where she was wrapped and
2:58:38put there but in terms of just where she
2:58:39was killed that doesn't allow me to
2:58:42make that determination it may have been
2:58:44where she's
2:58:46then wrapped and put in the bag i
2:58:48understand but you were there and we
2:58:50weren't so
2:58:50is the the the sequence of photos does
2:58:54that tend to indicate
2:58:55indicate to you based on you being there
2:58:58that
2:58:58there was quite a bit of debris on the
2:59:01ac
2:59:01on the child's body itself and in the
2:59:04wrappings or whatever that would
2:59:06indicate that
2:59:06maybe she was wrapped up while she was
2:59:08in a woody area
2:59:11oh yes that suddenly that is an
2:59:13interpretation that could be made from
2:59:15that finding yes
2:59:16okay thank you mr ross
2:59:20miss dome were you able to determine
2:59:23whether this was a
2:59:25single impact or multiple impacts to the
2:59:28head
2:59:29no i was not as mr carter alluded to
2:59:33some of those obviously one impact
2:59:38it represents a very very significant
2:59:40force
2:59:41and the type of injuries that i saw
2:59:43particularly we saw some of the
2:59:46fractures of the top of the skull but
2:59:48there is also fractures of the basal the
2:59:51skull
2:59:52i tend to see that in severe crushing
2:59:54type injuries
2:59:56and so it appears to be a significant
2:59:59crushing especially with injuries to her
3:00:01mouth
3:00:01but multiple impacts to the head
3:00:04are also a possibility so i was not able
3:00:07to determine but
3:00:08from my experience i tend to see things
3:00:10like this in a severe crushing
3:00:12and if it's a crushing it certainly
3:00:14could have been one very significant
3:00:15crush and you spoke a little bit about
3:00:19the
3:00:20tv falling onto her if she was sleeping
3:00:23and
3:00:24i guess we caught we've been calling it
3:00:25a sleeper like a baby bed
3:00:28and a tv fell on top of her but that
3:00:29caused that type of injury
3:00:32i'm not in a bed no and why is that
3:00:36because the bed is is soft and it would
3:00:38cause then the head to be compressed
3:00:40um in a stationary crush um to get these
3:00:44type of injuries the head would have to
3:00:46be stationary and also on something firm
3:00:48and so when i see these crushing type
3:00:50injuries and tv falls
3:00:52they're in toddlers that then you know
3:00:54they're trying to climb up on something
3:00:56and when when they fall their head
3:00:59becomes stationary on a hard floor and
3:01:00the tv then crushes it
3:01:02um you wouldn't expect to have any type
3:01:05of
3:01:06crushing to this degree if a
3:01:09body is on a bed or a mattress and then
3:01:12it would allow the body to then be
3:01:15pushed into the mattress so you may get
3:01:17some injuries but not this significant
3:01:19amount of force
3:01:20if the head is not stationary on a solid
3:01:22surface
3:01:27you may step down any reason why she
3:01:28might not be excused
3:01:30you excuse me for the attendance on the
3:01:32court thank you you may call your next
3:01:46witness
3:01:53[Music]
3:02:08you

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