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Johnny Harris Reveals How He Writes YouTube Videos — Transcript

by David Perell · 15,936 words · 2,194 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

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0:00Johnny Harris is one of the best
0:01storytellers on YouTube the thing about
0:03him is he can make any story go viral
0:05let's talk about breakfast lottery
0:07tickets extra virgin olive oil and what
0:09I wanted to know in this episode is how
0:11does he think about making these videos
0:12that are both beautiful and popular like
0:15how do you do both of those things and
0:17we went through all the writing the
0:19Drafting and the editing but it wasn't
0:20just words it was images it was sound it
0:23was absolutely every part of the
0:25creative process we broke it down and we
0:27said what exactly do you do and I
0:30promise you by the end of this video
0:32you're going to be a better visual
0:35Storyteller tell me this what does it
0:37take to make a video like from A to Z
0:39how does this get done how long does it
0:41take and what are the the core
0:43pillars it's about a four month process
0:47wow for each video it starts with
0:50sometimes it's a story day is and I will
0:52like roll our sleeves up and kind of
0:54like look at story pitches and ideas
0:55that we've been uh taking notes on for a
0:57long time and and then it goes into a
0:59GRE light I Greenlight it on on on a
1:03channel in slack I say it's greenlit and
1:05often I deliver a a reporting brief this
1:08is what I want to know about this thing
1:10I did this last night on an airplane a
1:12reporting brief about El Chapo's prison
1:15escape how cool like like I I want to
1:18know everything about this tunnels and
1:19all of it and I did a tiny like a little
1:22Google to be like what's interesting
1:23about this and then ask a million
1:25questions and then that goes to a
1:26researcher researcher spends 3 to four
1:29week weeks becoming an expert in that
1:32topic surfacing visuals building out
1:35what we call an info do which is like a
1:3660 to 80 page digest of
1:41research that comes to
1:43me I process it in my brain I wrestle
1:47with it and I start to curate and
1:50outline and think about it as a
1:53story sometimes that comes with some
1:55additional research and Reporting
1:57whatever an expert interview or two with
1:59me and then scripting week happens and
2:01scripting week is usually three to four
2:05dedicated days of Hardcore writing and
2:08it is me in a
2:11room completely engrossed in the story
2:14writing and Visually directing and art
2:16directing doing all the that stuff that
2:18we've been looking at and after those 3
2:21to four days there is um a lot of visual
2:24assets that need to be gathered there's
2:26a lot of factchecking that needs to
2:27happen sometimes there's some additional
2:29reporting needs to happen but then it
2:31goes off into post-production there's a
2:33production kickoff where I translate the
2:35vision to a a a leader in our
2:38post-production team they grab that
2:40vision and they carry it through I film
2:44it the footage goes off and then they
2:46start to build out the postproduction
2:47team starts to build out everything that
2:49was put on that piece of paper and they
2:52and then Cuts start to come in it starts
2:54with a a shame cut which is just a radio
2:57edit an assembly with some very crude
2:59visuals
3:00and then it goes into a rough cut it
3:03goes into a fine cut it goes into a fine
3:06two uh it goes into an audio lock a
3:08picture lock and each of those we are
3:11leaving 150 notes or whatever you know
3:14little micro this and that Google Docs
3:17frame frame IO yeah it thumbnail starts
3:20to get developed within that at some
3:22point and the a sponsorship we do an ad
3:25read and that gets slotted in again
3:27that's a well oiled machine that just
3:29works and it's all slotted in and
3:31plotted you know 6 months in advance and
3:33then the video goes live and people
3:35hopefully watch it and then you do that
3:3630 times a year yeah yeah so my the way
3:39that looks for me I don't ever see any
3:42of that I see what's on my calendar as
3:44the work block for scripting this we
3:48whatever this week is and when you are
3:50the most frustrated in your writing
3:53you're stuck you're pissed off whatever
3:55it is what usually goes wrong often
3:58times I get really pissed off and scared
4:02and bummed when I get into a story and
4:05it's day two or day three and I still
4:09feel like I don't really get it I don't
4:11fully get I haven't cracked the like
4:14satisfying explanation or
4:17thing and I think uh you know I I should
4:22report on this more and I start to I
4:24start to question everything I start to
4:25be like w why am I so why do we make so
4:27many videos and I start to Grumble and I
4:29think like why should just like do this
4:30all my it's it's bad it's like cuz I cuz
4:33I know that like I have to move on yeah
4:35the constraint is very powerful because
4:38it forces me to be laser focused and I'm
4:41very prolific because of it this the
4:42constraint of the constraint of the four
4:44days but it it can have these sort of
4:47backfiring effects if I if I don't feel
4:51like I have a grasp on it now we now
4:53have flexibility within the system where
4:57like things can move and change if I
4:58need that more time
5:00we don't make you know 48 videos a year
5:02anymore we make 30 and now there's some
5:04flexibility and so some weeks are longer
5:06and I'm able to push it and that's nice
5:08that I've had to do that a couple times
5:10this year already and so that's sort of
5:12relieved that frustration okay so your
5:15entire life is four day blocks you do
5:17four days of this four days of this four
5:18days of this and you're just constantly
5:20going there's no breaks in the middle
5:22you just go go go there I mean there
5:24there are breaks there's vacation
5:25there's spring break with my kids the
5:27summer we usually take a big break like
5:28there's you know like in December we
5:30usually take 3 weeks off like there are
5:32big periods of rest and then during the
5:34production cycle we've experimented with
5:37Sprint Sprint Sprint take like a couple
5:40weeks of
5:42chill uh lately we've been experimenting
5:44with like three weeks of writing blocks
5:46and then one week of like just catch up
5:48and whatever and and that will sometimes
5:51get eaten up or flexed into or whatever
5:53so we're experimenting with now that we
5:55make fewer videos with ways of making it
5:57sustainable mhm but there was a year
6:00there when we were making four videos a
6:02month where it was it was three-day
6:04blocks back then actually it was like
6:05three-day Sprints and it was we were on
6:08the treadmill and boy we got good real
6:10fast constraints constraints sharpen you
6:13and like so much of our skill as a team
6:16is because we we have that those
6:18constraints and that urgency we can't be
6:20precious and so the constraints are
6:23they've added way more value than
6:24they've they've created frustration
6:27easily when you're on the road how you
6:29taking notes and basically capturing all
6:32of your thoughts I'm talking to my phone
6:35really I'm talking to my phone for
6:37minutes in minutes and I'm talking to
6:39transcription and there are so many
6:41times when I'm thinking and I'm kind of
6:43looking up and I'm talking to my phone
6:44and I realize that like it didn't I
6:46didn't press the microphone button um
6:48and so I I do it again but that is my
6:50like way of communicating instead of
6:52doing this I am transcribing on like a
6:55note on like an apple Notes app and I am
6:59reflecting I am especially with like
7:01complicated human stories every
7:04interview I have changes my mind and so
7:07it's this it's this Whiplash of like I
7:10think this is the story but then I have
7:12this interview and that muddies the
7:13water and I have to change it that
7:15doesn't happen as much when I'm writing
7:17and researching for my computer you know
7:19but like when you're in the field
7:21talking to humans everything is chaos
7:24and to
7:29into something meaningful which always
7:31leaves so much complexity on the ground
7:34and so my notes are often just a sort of
7:38like chaotic like wrestling with like
7:40what do I want to say about this and at
7:42what point do you start thinking to
7:45yourself I want to weave this into a
7:47narrative is it when you get home is it
7:49when you're on the road that's changed a
7:51lot over the years I started when I
7:54first started going into the field I I
7:56did the kind of classic documentarian
7:58ethic of like show up and let the story
8:00come to you yeah and part of that was
8:02just like lack of preparation and
8:03understanding but it actually was really
8:05useful and I I would sort of let the
8:07story come to me and I would do a lot of
8:09story work in the edit and then as I
8:12professionalized and like borders Vox
8:14borders which was like my big series Vox
8:16like I started to become much more
8:18ambitious with what I wanted it to be
8:21and so I would prepro the hell out of
8:23every story I would like I'm going to
8:24start with this and we're going to do
8:25this ambitious shot I'm going to do this
8:27drone shot and then I need to get a
8:28sound bite of this and I would start to
8:31engineer and that had a lot of benefits
8:34from a production perspective and from
8:35like a cinematography I got way better
8:37at getting like crazy cool shots in the
8:39field but I started to over engineer and
8:43I think you know three or four years
8:45into that I felt like I was over
8:48engineering and shoehorning the story
8:51into like my
8:53scaffold and so now I'm in this I'm the
8:56pendulum is swinging back now I'm going
8:58to Finland in a couple weeks weeks and
9:00I'm intentionally just not not like
9:02deciding what I want to say or even a
9:04framing or even anything I'm just going
9:06to go and I have stuff lined up but the
9:09access is the story I'm going to train
9:11with the Finnish Army and I'm going into
9:13these bunkers I'm going to the Russian
9:14border and I'm just going like Let It
9:15Flow and then I'm going to decide what I
9:17want to say and how much research are
9:19you doing in advance you like a show up
9:21in Finland let's see what's going on are
9:23you reading books about Finland now when
9:25I went to Saudi Arabia to look at their
9:28big futuristic city project um I did
9:31read a lot cuz I didn't have a strong
9:34grounding in the history of Saudi Arabia
9:37so I read a couple of books talked to a
9:39couple of experts and like got
9:42grounded but I didn't do any
9:44storytelling work again that's a total
9:46like knowledge is one thing storytelling
9:49is the curation of chaotic information
9:52about the world into a very firm linear
9:55presentation and and I didn't do any of
9:58that for Saudi Arabia but Finland I know
10:01a lot about what's going on up there and
10:03so I I I'm I'm I'm kind of not int I'm
10:07intentionally not going too deep so tell
10:10me this with Saudi Arabia that was a
10:11thumbnail you designed in advance right
10:15yes so this was that was a headline you
10:16designed in advance right yep and and I
10:19still and I still do this even when I'm
10:20open-minded about what the story is
10:22going to be the marketing which is what
10:25this is this is why should you
10:28click is defined early on because on
10:32YouTube and in any sort of market for
10:35attention which is everything um you
10:38have to decide like okay I want to make
10:39this piece but like why is someone going
10:41to click it I can figure out why they
10:43should watch 30 minutes of it but why
10:45are they going to click it and that's
10:46what this is I knew that what would
10:48bring them in is why is Saudi Arabia
10:51building a futuristic city in the desert
10:53that's a straight line that's that is a
10:55straight line look at it and it's like
10:58that that I knew that that was the
10:59promise that was a clear
11:01promise the storytelling is a
11:03complicated thing this is not a
11:05complicated thing this is like a this is
11:06the Billboard this is the packaging I
11:08usually will do two or three different
11:09packagings when I'm deciding what story
11:12to do and be like does this have legs
11:14for to be clickable but that doesn't
11:16Define the story it just defines kind of
11:18one thing that I know I'm going to
11:20answer a promise I know I'm going to
11:21answer and how do you think about that
11:23promise so you have right here why Saudi
11:25Arabia is building A1 trillion dollar
11:27City in the desert like is that a I need
11:29to answer this in the first 10 seconds I
11:31need to answer this in the first 1
11:32minute I need to show somebody I want to
11:34answer it in the video actually there's
11:36a lot of reasons the whole video is an
11:37answer to this question how do you think
11:39about if this is a promise to answer the
11:41question how do you think about the
11:43payoff MH of that question there's two
11:47answers to that one
11:49is the the the more controversial answer
11:53and the other is is the more
11:54straightforward one the controversial
11:55answer
11:56is I kind of believe that if I can get
11:59some someone to click that I
12:02can I can um convince them to brought in
12:08their curiosity to a billion other
12:10things that they didn't even realize
12:11they were curious about and that this is
12:13just the entry point this is just the
12:15click in because it's big and
12:16Sensational and accessible but really
12:19you're going to start to learn about
12:21resource countries and the resource
12:24curse and roner states and all these
12:25economics and future proof in your city
12:28and the history of oil
12:30and that yes you will get this answer
12:32but you will have forgotten that that's
12:33why you clicked it in the first place
12:34because you will be let into this much
12:36bigger world so that's kind of the like
12:39I I I I'm folding in the
12:43vegetables and that's that's a major
12:46goal for me is like making people feel
12:48enthusiasm and curiosity about something
12:49they didn't know that they were curious
12:51about the other one is I still do need
12:54to satisfyingly answer the question for
12:56those who who don't have that first
12:59experience and um I don't answer it in
13:03the first 10 seconds or the first minute
13:04but by the end of the video I have to
13:06what I do have to do is promise that I'm
13:08going to answer it and and I have to
13:11reinforce the promise of the thumbnail
13:13within the first minute I would say and
13:16then tell me this when you're on the
13:17road what parts of I'm sure it changes
13:20from video to video but what parts of
13:21what you're doing is scripted versus
13:23unscripted so you're doing uh an episode
13:27where you're in Finland Russia and
13:28there's obviously going to be field
13:31things that you record hey you know I'm
13:32right here let me just tell you about
13:33what I'm experiencing right now what I'm
13:34seeing check this out like I'm right
13:36here with you but then there's other
13:38parts maybe in the intro somewhere else
13:39where I can tell the writing is really
13:41well thought out the audio quality is
13:43supreme so how do you think about the
13:45balance between those two again that's
13:47that is a Ever Changing balance uh 2018
13:51was the
13:53year that was the height of my sort of
13:55over engineering it was in Hong Kong
13:57before that I would always do vo and I
13:58always write it of after but by then I
14:00had made this goal of recording all of
14:03the explanations all of the dates and
14:05facts and the whole narrative well told
14:08on camera while I was in Hong Kong and
14:10back then I was shooting on an osmo like
14:12like this like quirky little gimbal
14:14camera and I did it and it was a total
14:17nightmare
14:19because I got all the shots and the
14:21whole thing is vlogged you know it's
14:23like a vlog explainer it's great but I
14:26wasn't able to mold and wrestle with the
14:28story which like I find a lot of value
14:31in that now so I'm moving really
14:34strongly away from the over-engineered
14:35script when I'm on the ground and moving
14:38more towards when I'm on the ground it's
14:40about reacting and experiencing it's
14:42experiential storytelling character
14:44interactions experiences and then when I
14:47get back and I've really let it settle
14:48and I've wrestled then I write the pros
14:51word for word and I go into the vo booth
14:53and I say the words to stitch the things
14:56together to construct the explanation in
14:58an elegant way way to not have the
15:00pressure to do that when I'm on the
15:01ground cuz what what ended up happening
15:03when I'm on the ground is I'm thinking
15:05more about where am I going to go do a
15:07standup meaning like a I'm going to set
15:08the camera up and say my lines and how
15:10am I going to get the lines I'm going to
15:12do lots of takes and it ends up taking
15:13away from my ability to just be there
15:15which is incredibly valuable I'm
15:17realizing more and more I want to tell
15:19you about the only app that I use to
15:21read articles and it's called reader so
15:24tell me if this sounds familiar you read
15:26something brilliant like an amazing
15:27quote the perfect article
15:29but then one day you go back you're
15:30looking to find it and it's just gone
15:33you can't find the thing that used to
15:35drive me crazy but then I found this app
15:39called reader and it's become the backup
15:41system for my brain here's how it works
15:44so whenever I'm on my phone I'm on my
15:45computer I'll come across a new article
15:47and what I do is I just toss it into
15:49reader and then whenever I'm ready to
15:52read I can find all the articles
15:55pre-downloaded with no ads and no
15:57clutter but here's the kicker every time
16:00I highlight something reader
16:02automatically saves it for me so then if
16:05I'm writing and I need that perfect
16:07quote that perfect example it's just
16:09right there waiting for me and because
16:11that I don't have to dig through old
16:12notes or endless browser tabs anymore
16:15and that means that I can focus on
16:18writing reader is the sponsor of today's
16:20episode and look I got to love a product
16:23in order to promote it and I can tell
16:24you that I use reader every single day
16:28so this what I did dip I called up the
16:30CEO and I said yo will you give how I
16:33write listeners 60 days free and he said
16:35sure they got a sign up though at read
16:38wise. David Perell and there's a link in
16:41the description below all right back to
16:43the
16:44episode I want to show you this video
16:47about the Mormons and how we design it
16:50on paper how we build the video on
16:52paper where not only the writing happens
16:55but the visual Direction so after 6
16:58weeks of re research from a research
17:00producer I'm given a big info do and I
17:04start to write and I start to think
17:07about story and I start to think about
17:08visuals and as I'm writing I am writing
17:11words and then I'm immediately going
17:13over to the right column and I am I am
17:17coordinating
17:19choreographing visuals that will play
17:21that will dance with the pros that that
17:24is the only way I know do I've never
17:25I've never been a text writer I've
17:26always been someone who writes for
17:29motion on a screen and so those to me
17:31are they are one in the same so every
17:34sentence or two has a new row in this
17:36script and it gets its own specific
17:39Direction This is a history video I not
17:42all my videos are history videos this
17:44one the
17:46writing has a backbone inherently which
17:49takes away a huge question from the
17:52beginning is like what is going to be
17:53the the order of the information when
17:57it's a history and it's chronological
17:58iCal experience I know where I start and
18:00I know where I end the puzzle turns into
18:04what am I curating and how am I
18:06explaining it in a new way so that's
18:09that's sort of a first important thing
18:11not every story has that backbone
18:13pre-baked for you right when it's a
18:15history video that's like it takes the
18:16pressure off in a in a big way and maybe
18:18a third of my videos are kind of history
18:20videos that have a really clean
18:21chronology and that's whenever it's a
18:23history video I'm like ah I don't have
18:24to wrestle with a with a structure thank
18:27God you know fighting structure is
18:29brutal yeah you know the first line is
18:32always the the tricky one um I like
18:36first lines that drop you into action
18:40that
18:41enliven the viewers kind of Senses with
18:46a surprising usually a surprising action
18:49or Visual and often times that starts
18:51with look at this it's like look at this
18:53map or whatever and it immediately
18:55engages the viewer to say like do
18:57something in this case I start
19:00with it started with the murder of their
19:03prophet in Illinois to me that's like a
19:07a line that wakes you up a little bit it
19:09started with a murder like boom I'm not
19:12saying like I want to tell you the story
19:14of the Mormons as they moved I don't
19:16want to do like a classical kind of like
19:19tell them what you're going to tell them
19:20you start with action and you throw
19:23people into action to me that's like a
19:24way to sort of engage from the beginning
19:26in the sound you have written gunshot
19:29epic suspensful yes slow-mo I wanted
19:32this to be emotional and that's the
19:33other thing is I think you can drop
19:36someone in immediately to a an emotional
19:38tone that says like oh we're going like
19:41we're doing this like we are in
19:43something already we're not ramping up
19:44to it other times I like to ramp up but
19:46but there is something about this cold
19:48open just hit them with emotion tone
19:50action Visual and what we're looking at
19:53on the screen here is left side is the
19:54writing what you're going to say yep and
19:57right side is the feeling in the visuals
19:59of what's going on yes and I have all
20:02these color codes when it's when it is
20:05red like this it is a visual asset that
20:07needs to be collected so I have a macro
20:09on my computer when I'm writing and I
20:11press alt a and it it makes it bold it
20:14turns it red and it turns it into a
20:16checkbox and that happens all in 0.01
20:19seconds yeah and and then I write it so
20:22when I'm writing I am coding all of
20:24these color codes in with without ever
20:27pressing a mouse
20:29and that allows me to kind of edit in my
20:30mind so we can talk about that more
20:32later Joseph Smith the leader of 26,000
20:36Mormons father of 14 children husband to
20:3940 wives I like the music of that
20:44sentence it it kind of has a a rhythm to
20:47it yeah but it also hits you with okay
20:50and the original didn't have husband to
20:5240 wives the original was just leader of
20:5526 uh thousand Mormons fathered of 14
20:58children
20:59and I sort of contemplated do I want to
21:01say husband to 40
21:04wives because it's a it's a very known
21:06sort of anti-mormon Trope to purely
21:09focus on polygamy and what I didn't want
21:12to do is immediately turn off the
21:16believing viewers the Mormons who are
21:18watching this because they're so used to
21:20just being immune to like oh this is an
21:22anti- thing about polygamy so I I
21:25intentionally and this goes down to a
21:27big philosophy of mine of I'm always
21:29empathizing with the viewer I'm thinking
21:30who's watching this and what is
21:31happening in their minds as this
21:33information hits them that is the the
21:35most important sensibility for what I do
21:38and so I wrestled do I include the 40
21:40wives or not and I was thinking only of
21:42this really small subsection of the
21:43audience and I thought no I I'm actually
21:46going to include this because most of
21:47the audience who's watching will find
21:49that fascinating and that will be
21:51intriguing and it will hook them so I'm
21:52going to include it that's that's
21:54emblematic of a lot of wrestling I do of
21:57what is the audience going to think
21:59and every word is thought through in
22:01that way we keep going the prophet s
22:04Revelator was dead and the Mormons were
22:05under attack so they
22:07fled I'm a big believer
22:10in what Steph Pinker who is this
22:15Harvard cognitive linguist who I
22:17love um has surfaced as classical style
22:21classic
22:22style which is an obsessive focus on
22:26active language visual active language
22:29we can get so caught up in ideas and
22:32Concepts when we
22:34write and for me the way that people
22:37actually want to be communicated to is
22:40with very clear who did what to whom
22:43what happened what is the who who is
22:45acting and what are they acting towards
22:47what are they doing and so I'll often
22:49say things like they fled instead of
22:53leading to the migration of 6,000
22:56Mormons to you know the West United
22:59States like the migration of is a
23:01concept they fled is an action it is
23:05people doing a thing and our brains can
23:07see that they can see people fleeing
23:09yeah you know it's it's a totally
23:11different way of of of writing and it's
23:14often more plain and simple but it hits
23:16it hits our visual brain Stephen
23:18pinker's got this great book sense of
23:20style that where he unpacks this and it
23:22it is my entire Bible of writing so who
23:26did what to whom and active yeah there's
23:28an agent there is a there in in syntax
23:31jargon it's like there is an agent who
23:33is acting who is verbing something yeah
23:36instead of a a noun a concept that is
23:38like you know like globalization it's
23:42like no we now send Coca-Cola to
23:44Thailand like that's globalization right
23:47but people say
23:48globalization and that's vague and it's
23:50like well what's
23:51globalization it's America sending uh
23:55Ford to Japan yeah you know it's it's a
23:58it's an agent doing a thing that we can
24:00see so that's a core tenant throughout
24:03all writing for me so the story is these
24:06Mormons leave and they go to what was
24:09Mexico yeah right it was Mexico at the
24:11time to escape the federal
24:13government and immediately I think in
24:16terms of characters and on on the map
24:18you will see that I build two icons I
24:21often do these these little oxyon that
24:22are icons one is the Mormons and they're
24:24in Mexico and one is the federal
24:26government and they're over in the east
24:27of the United States and there spatial
24:29relationship between them they're far
24:30away from each other but they're now
24:32both agents they both act and move and
24:34do things and have motives this becomes
24:37the basis the stage that we can tell a
24:41story because again classic style like
24:43people act they they they move forward
24:46in space and time so I've built this
24:48section where I say the Mormons knew the
24:51US was coming and they were worried they
24:54needed to keep the federal government
24:56from taking over this land shutting down
24:58their spiritual government and once
25:00again soiling their vision and while
25:02that is happening we are looking at a
25:04map that is the big federal government
25:07that is slowly moving West and the
25:10little Mormons sitting there in their
25:12little high desert and there's tension
25:14in that and and that immediately the the
25:16viewer I think I hope is going oh here
25:20they come there there's anticipation in
25:22the federal government moving to them
25:24and and we know their motives I call
25:26this loading up the icon with motives
25:29wait what does that mean we see this
25:31little icon called the Mormons and it
25:33represents this community and I'm going
25:36to load them up with motivation and
25:39intentions and worry I'm basically going
25:41to tell the viewer this is their agenda
25:43this is what they need and then I'm
25:45going to load up the federal government
25:47with intention and motivation and motion
25:51and now the stage is set the viewer can
25:53say okay the Mormons are scared of the
25:55federal government and they want to make
25:57sure they don't shut down their
25:58spiritual vision the federal government
26:00is set on expanding there's tension here
26:03and and over time this this process
26:05unfolds where the big federal government
26:07slowly starts to move west and the scar
26:09we know that the Mormons are scared and
26:11we can feel that now because we've set
26:12we've loaded each of these up with
26:14motivation and connection does that make
26:16sense yeah Okay so we've we've set the
26:18stage both the icons are loaded up they
26:21moved quickly to ask for their own State
26:23telling the government hey you know what
26:26we didn't really like so I do this this
26:28thing here where I I take the icon and I
26:32give it dialogue and it's very
26:35reductionist simplistic dialogue that
26:38captures big complicated events so I I'm
26:40saying that the Mormons are saying this
26:43hey we know you didn't like us settling
26:44in Missouri or Illinois but we're out
26:47here in the west and we've settled and
26:49developed all of this land in a really
26:51short time please let us have our own
26:53state so that we can practice our
26:54religion as we please so that's a
26:57conversational modern-day language
27:00interpretation of what was really a
27:02four-year process of the Mormons
27:03lobbying for their own State and what I
27:05see that's going on here is a few things
27:07so my question is going to be how are
27:10you thinking about the relationship
27:12between what you write and then how
27:13you're thinking about the visuals you
27:15know it's sort of like a what came first
27:16type question but then the other thing
27:18that I'm seeing is Citation citation
27:21citation then you're
27:24writing and kind of dreaming up with the
27:27end video is as you write and it's not
27:30this sequential thing it's actually
27:32crucial that both of these things are on
27:34the script at the exact absolutely I am
27:37writing a piece of Pros in the left and
27:41then I am pressing Tab and I'm going to
27:43the right and I am coding the visuals
27:45why do you use the word coding because
27:47it's not writing I'm not writing the
27:49visuals I am pressing all these buttons
27:52to make different colors and different
27:55indentations and I am thinking about
27:58animation and I'm and I'm actually
27:59saying oh the pre-m should be nested
28:01with like I'm an animator so I'm
28:03actually speaking to my future animator
28:05who doing this and directing how I think
28:09it could be created and then I am
28:11finding references visual references and
28:13I'm annotating them and as you can see
28:15in here this is me with
28:17screenshots
28:19annotating an old map so we're on this
28:21map and yeah I'm I'm basically creating
28:25the whole thing as a piece of visual
28:28Direction and so yeah I call it coding
28:30because it feels it feels like coding I
28:33don't know I'm I'm visually directing
28:35but it the two dance together and they
28:37must dance together every word must pair
28:40with a a a motion or an action with in
28:44the animation so you write this and
28:46presumably you don't just go all right
28:48I'm done I'm going to record all this
28:50and and and get it going I would imagine
28:53there's people who look one of the big
28:55things I lost when I left an institution
28:58was having like an editor and a guide
29:00over me um my wife is who's also the the
29:04leader of the company and kind of the
29:05executive producer of all the things
29:07looks at scripts and gives me feedback
29:10on Flow Clarity like just story and she
29:14does that for all the channels that we
29:16have but we don't have a robust
29:20editorial and then tell me about the
29:22shame draft because I feel like that's
29:23when this kind of comes in so the shame
29:25draft is where we translate this script
29:29onto a timeline it is all the voice so
29:32it's the left column completely
29:34articulated with on camera or voiceover
29:37and then it is
29:39screenshots of the right column
29:42happening in time so I say the word and
29:46we now can I can now watch it uh and I
29:49can see what I directed as it plays and
29:52there's music and it so I can actually
29:55watch it and we can actually give
29:57feedback on the flow of the video and
29:59the length and we can we can cut it down
30:01and it's it's one step and it does kind
30:04of change at that point
30:06but these grips are me really kind of
30:10letting the cement dry a little bit uh
30:12pretty pretty quickly um field pieces
30:15are a little bit more chaotic because
30:17there's more interviews and more
30:19moments but um but yeah it's it is a
30:25pretty intense process of trying to
30:28Envision what the final video is going
30:29to look like and trying to articulate it
30:31as best I can on paper yeah and one of
30:33the things that we can show is the
30:36comments are hardcore on the right side
30:39like wow there's more words in comments
30:43than there are in the actual because the
30:45comments are our fact check so every
30:48assertion in every single video has a
30:52fact check this is why everything is
30:53green here every every assertion that
30:55was made before was red at first a red
30:58highlight but the moment it got fact
31:00checked it got a citation tag and if you
31:03click into a citation you see a little
31:05blurb that prove that checks the fact
31:08and then the sourcing of where it came
31:09from and some of these assertions have
31:12three or four fact checks from from
31:14academic articles from Census Data from
31:17whatever because this is the way we keep
31:19our facts really watertight and we
31:22didn't always have this process we we've
31:23had to learn the hard way that things
31:25can fall through the cracks when we're
31:26making so much and so so we we have a
31:28water type process now nice everything's
31:30fact checked and yeah it's a lot it's
31:32it's it is and then we we published
31:34these as a source dock that people can
31:37go look and scrutinize our sources a lot
31:39of my videos history or explainer videos
31:42follow this very active Pros who did
31:47what to whom to move the story forward
31:49sometimes it happens with icons whatever
31:52but there's always a moment it's usually
31:54towards the end where I want to like be
31:56like all right we've we've gone through
31:57all the action let's like zoom out and
32:00reflect and like contemplate what this
32:03means and it usually comes with a more
32:04emotional tone and it comes with like a
32:08a contemplating kind of energy to it so
32:11so you get to this conclusion and the
32:14music will hit and kind of start to I
32:16call it a conclusion energy and I say
32:19today the descendants of those original
32:22pioneers live in Mormon communities
32:24along this Corridor that Brigham Young
32:27settled so you can tell it's less who
32:30did what to whom and it's more it's like
32:33the end of the movie kind of like the
32:34the postcript that you see on the end of
32:36a documentary that kind of gives you the
32:38the update and then I get personal in
32:40this one because this one was personal I
32:41say my wife and I went to school right
32:44here in the heart of it in this
32:45beautiful Valley surrounded by these
32:47massive mountains feeling close to the
32:50specific sugarcoated version of this
32:52history that I was taught one thing I I
32:55like to do is weave in and
32:59unexpected praise to things that I'm
33:02criticizing H to to to show that I'm not
33:05just purely on a one-sided rant to
33:07condemn something that's just too easy
33:09and people are IM they're kind of tired
33:11of it so I could have easily just been
33:13like the Mormons and they brainwashed me
33:15and da D instead I say in a beautiful
33:18Valley surrounded by these massive
33:20mountains and that's authentic I loved
33:22that experience being in that in that
33:24beautiful Valley and yet in the same
33:27sentence the next Clause is feeling
33:30close to the specific sugarcoated
33:32version of this history that I was
33:34taught that's a juxtaposition in one
33:36sentence beautiful Valley I was
33:39brainwashed all at life is complicated
33:42and in these contemplative sections I
33:45like to throw a little bit of a wrench
33:48in in kind of a one-sided interpretation
33:51or one-sided kind of analysis of what of
33:54what I experienced I say these stories
33:56of struggle and confli
33:58sacrifice in the name of your beliefs
34:00bravery in the face of persecution a
34:03work ethic and a discipline and an
34:06obedience that is deeply linked to
34:10exploitation and apocalyptic thinking
34:13exploitation of Mormon women and
34:15children and the native people whose
34:17land was stolen is helped me write this
34:19last section and really pushed me to say
34:22like hey don't lean too hard into
34:25apologizing for them like this is a
34:28pretty messed up history and you need to
34:30make sure that that is a part of this
34:31conclusion but again it's next to an
34:35understanding that it has Beauty to it
34:37as well I'm wondering what your
34:39Inspirations are for writing and writing
34:42style and just the vibe
34:44because as I see the way you're writing
34:47it really has the Cadence and the tenor
34:50of a speech much more than a book we saw
34:53that earlier with especially with the
34:55way that you were talking through the
34:57Rhythm but here you know you have parts
35:00of many Mormon's identities an identity
35:03that is inextricably linked and I think
35:05that's important for the kind of writing
35:06that you do because a lot of times
35:08people are watching the video while
35:10they're making dinner or something like
35:13that and you're writing as much for the
35:14ear as for the eye that's good that's
35:16interesting feedback I mean I don't
35:19think about it or analyze it I just know
35:22that I have only ever written for this
35:27format to say it I I was never a text
35:29writer I was always a video person I was
35:32always a visual person and and I'm also
35:34really dyslexic like I don't read on the
35:36page I listen to audiobooks I I dictate
35:39to a phone I don't type you know
35:41whenever I can now was this dictated no
35:44I I write when I'm in this Zone I I can
35:47write and there's a million typos and
35:48whatever but like I write and I'm
35:51speaking it in my mind and I'm and I'm
35:54also visualizing it um so I think the
35:57the Pros probably does feel more verbal
36:00nice um that that is the end like I
36:03don't know what it would ever look like
36:05if I just wrote something that people
36:07read yeah you know I don't do that yeah
36:09which is like I don't know someday maybe
36:12I'll write a book or something and have
36:13to Grapple with that but like for now
36:16this is the format that I love for most
36:18of my career I made stuff on my own and
36:23it was all in my head and I would go out
36:25and film and write and edit and animate
36:28and so I never I didn't have to
36:29communicate to anyone what the vision
36:32was um and that was great like I just
36:35loved just sort of tinkering and but it
36:37was limiting I I could only do as much
36:39as I could do now we have 25 people we
36:43have really talented editors and
36:44animators yeah how's the team structured
36:47it's it's mostly a production company
36:48it's editors animators um and then we
36:51have some a visual producer who kind of
36:53helps bridge the gap between
36:55pre-production and post-production and
36:57then we have a few pre-pro people
36:59researchers who who help surface
37:02information and then there's a business
37:04side a business operation which is um
37:07production coordination but also you
37:09know is then overseas the business side
37:12which we're trying to grow a little bit
37:13better but it's mostly a production
37:14company with technicians who are a lot
37:17of people like me they're self-taught
37:19kind of Scrappy resourceful like I don't
37:21hire from traditional TV it's people who
37:24can who are up for anything but now what
37:28I have to do is articulate and
37:30communicate what has always been in my
37:32head I've done that now for a few years
37:35but what it looks like is this art
37:38ingredients uh page which every which is
37:41now a tab in Google Docs and this is
37:44just page one of like dozens um but the
37:48idea is that every single video has its
37:50own art direction that suits the story
37:53and so right here what what are we going
37:56to do with archive
37:58archival uh videos and photos well for
38:00the Stills we are going to use
38:03mysterious cryptic symbols we're going
38:05to frame our photos like this while I'm
38:08writing the story and something pops
38:10into my head I go over to the art
38:12ingredients I have in another Tab and I
38:15write notes what does your week actually
38:18look like in order to do this maybe we
38:19talk about this later but I just writing
38:22writing WR I
38:23mean my entire world is is framed around
38:27a writing block from 9 to 2:00 p.m. or
38:309:00 a.m 9:00 a.m. to 2 p.m. that is my
38:32entire life no there's no meetings
38:35there's no slack there's no email
38:36there's no nothing between 9:00 and 2
38:38p.m. usually three days a week sometimes
38:42four that is where it all gets done and
38:45those are sacred like the no one like
38:48that is where it all happens and so my
38:49entire world is just these writing
38:51blocks and they're very disciplined and
38:53they're very urgent and the whole system
38:56works if if I can hit those blocks and
38:59describe the vibe the space your mindset
39:02as you're doing I um am a little it's a
39:05little Voodoo magicky where like I wake
39:07up in the morning and I already know
39:10what the block is I've been thinking
39:11about the block
39:12of what I'm going to what I have to hit
39:14that day and I'm excited about it and
39:17I'm nervous and I my bell is kind of
39:19churning I'm thinking like this morning
39:22I'm writing this video about income
39:23inequality over the decades it's like
39:25this big story whatever I was thinking
39:28about that last night I was thinking
39:29about when I woke up this morning I get
39:32ready and then as 9:00 comes I'm like
39:35I'm literally like ner it's like game
39:36day it's like I'm about to go out into
39:37the field and like I'm in the locker
39:38room yeah and there's a lot of coffee
39:41and there's a lot of like get ready and
39:43then I have to be at my desk and I have
39:45to like clear things off and I have to
39:48like take this little kind of 10-minute
39:51ramp up and then I jump in and there's
39:54music it's often sometimes it's like
39:57music that our composer makes and I just
39:58listen to his giant Bank of music that
40:00he makes for us which is amazing
40:02sometimes it's like synth wave mixes on
40:05YouTube like it's tons of music and it's
40:08very wired in locked in obsessive I
40:11think I'm people tell me I'm talking to
40:12myself and I'm kind of manic and I'm and
40:14I'm
40:16wrestling um but it's flow for me like
40:19it's a it kind of has to be that way and
40:22I can't have a writing block that's like
40:24in the afternoon I can't it's it's and
40:27this is why it's a little voodo magic
40:28I've almost like boxed myself in that I
40:30have to have the writing block at this
40:31time or it doesn't it doesn't work so
40:34that's where all this happens so let's
40:36pop back there so you have the art
40:37direction for every art direction
40:38there's how we're going to do archival
40:41how we're going to do video uh for AR
40:44archival video and stills there is how
40:47we're going to shoot it it's going to be
40:48cozy warm Vibes um there's going to be
40:52an a cam and a
40:54bcam this is all stuff that's specked
40:56out and then there's the animation
40:57what's our text going to be Chernobyl
41:00fuzz have you ever seen the HBO show
41:03Chernobyl I've seen an episode the
41:05titles on that are like my favorite
41:07style in the entire world they're kind
41:09of like this like Soviet 1980s TV look
41:12so we have a whole animation template
41:15that emulates that so Chernobyl fuzz I
41:17want there to be a little fuzz on the
41:18text do you have a mood board that
41:21you've been curating or is all this and
41:23John this is all this is all words in my
41:26brain and then Alex our our visual
41:29producer will take this and she will
41:32then articulate it in a mood board and
41:34then is and I will react to that and
41:36we'll give thoughts on color palette on
41:39on type and text and you know these mood
41:42boards are really rich and fun it's so
41:44fun to see it do you want to yeah let's
41:46look at a mood board yeah talk me
41:48through this the channel doesn't have an
41:49art Direction like I don't have a
41:50branding package um because we like to
41:55do it fresh every time we like to to to
41:58make a new art direction for each one so
42:00this is an art direction for a future
42:02video the one I was just talking about
42:03actually uh oh this one's about why
42:04you're so board so you can see there's a
42:07color palette there are some of these
42:11title templates or some of these
42:12inspiration for the signs that we're
42:14going to animate there's a set
42:17design there is animation style there
42:20collage some of these are from previous
42:21videos we've made now for the set design
42:24hold on it says similar to so tired a
42:26bit Moody some scientific posters in the
42:28in the background think brains
42:30practicals analog Tech Natural History
42:32Museum like clutter one of the things
42:34that I see you doing is you're really
42:36writing out the vibe as well as showing
42:39it and really trying to make that
42:40concrete yeah having a vernacular and a
42:42vocabulary with the team is so important
42:45and I didn't have that for the first few
42:46years of having a team and so it was
42:48there was disconnect and it was bad
42:50meaning for me because I I didn't know
42:52how to communicate the vision we're now
42:54a few years in and the team knows cozy
43:00like like Moody blah blah blah and I
43:02have all these weird words that I use
43:04with with the the artistic team to like
43:07bring some of the stuff to life um so
43:10yeah every video gets one of these and
43:14uh this is the one so this is the
43:16original before it turns into a mood
43:18board this is me taking screenshots as
43:20I'm writing screenshots of what of this
43:24happens to be a screenshot of a previous
43:25video we had done because this was a
43:27part of a series so I was saying like
43:28hey let's render these in in this style
43:31but it's often screenshots from around
43:34the internet of things that I'm inspired
43:35by or previous videos sometimes I'll
43:37pull from and we have such a body of
43:39videos now that I'm often pulling from
43:41but it's map Styles it's it's sometimes
43:44I'll I'll take a screenshot of a old
43:47piece of paper and I'm like I like this
43:49Vibe the yellowing let's like you know
43:52integrate that in MH um you know map
43:55style this is a cool thing probably from
43:57Pinterest you know and it's like it's
43:59got Good Vibes let's see if we can make
44:01a video with this we make 30 videos a
44:02year so we get to like play around with
44:04whatever it's like we're not too
44:06precious about any of this stuff it's
44:08like just make it see what happens and
44:10just to ground this 30 videos a year
44:13average video is probably 20 minutes you
44:15average video is yeah 28 minutes
44:17probably so you're producing like 15
44:19minutes of video a week yeah well wellow
44:23if that's how the math works out it's a
44:24lot it is a lot and and it's every
44:27minute is you know premium animation and
44:30custom music yeah it's a monster of a
44:33thing we have an amazing team and we
44:36also are not precious we just go and we
44:39have a very high standard but like we do
44:41a few rounds and then we move on and I
44:43think the audience is cool with that if
44:46it was overly branded and perfect I
44:47think it wouldn't be us and that's
44:50that's one thing I really value about
44:51our team is we're
44:52Scrappy this video I I did a lot of
44:54these like cryptic symbols I didn't know
44:56how these were going to express
44:57themselves but I was like I like these I
44:58said for soul moments which is what we
45:00call non-evidence moments so we write in
45:03you have to see this piece of evidence
45:05to prove the fact but then we have soul
45:07which is like The Vibes the visual Vibes
45:10for soul moments before chapter titles I
45:12would love to find or create simplified
45:15versions of these
45:17symbols um so that made it in lots of
45:20cryptic symbols which is the Mormons had
45:23a lot of that
45:24stuff and then I screenshot this is
45:26literally gole go images you can see
45:28this is like me Googling Mormon symbols
45:31and just being like yeah that that that
45:33that let's go here's a question as
45:35you're
45:36writing and you have this just general
45:40sense of
45:41craftsmanship and obviously with the
45:44kind of care and dedication you put into
45:46your work you have
45:47to believe from like the level of your
45:50heart that like this is worth doing you
45:52almost need to be compelled to do it so
45:53how do you balance that with yo you got
45:5525 employees that's a huge bottom line
45:57how do you balance those things what
46:00Johnny wants to do versus what the
46:02people want or something yeah
46:04um we learned a few years ago when we
46:07were scaling the
46:08business and you know is built basically
46:13organization around what I was doing and
46:17really elevated it to become a
46:19professional
46:21organization but it hit a limit
46:23where we tried to optimize and get and
46:27and delegate and delegate and we were
46:29making a video a week we were making
46:31four videos a month and we had 17 videos
46:34going and it was like a well-oiled
46:37machine and we learned that that slowly
46:41started to suck the magic out of me I
46:45started to hate it because I was showing
46:48up and kind of
46:50manufacturing my passion to a degree I
46:53was still pitch I was still deciding the
46:55stories but we were you know it it was
46:56less control and so we dial back and
47:00sort of embrace the fact that I'm going
47:02to be a bottleneck like I am a
47:03bottleneck because if I'm obsessed with
47:06it then it will it will have some magic
47:10to it that like will the people will
47:13like and we can do it and that that does
47:14put a ceiling on how much we can make
47:17and we've sort of accepted that and now
47:19what we're doing is we're bottling what
47:20is is built which is this organization
47:23and we're now launching other channels
47:24under the same production process
47:27right but it I have to feel it in my
47:30belly or um I quickly get drained but
47:35when I love this stuff like I have this
47:37sort of Eternal energy for it not
47:39Eternal it it wears me down but um but I
47:43love it so title options a video
47:47has to be uh marketable and that is a
47:50thing that that's a constraint that I
47:51operate under MH which is like what are
47:54we going to call this why are people
47:55going to click it couple million people
47:57have to be interested in
47:59this um and so I do seven titles or more
48:02you know and this is the the promise and
48:06and the wording is very important it's a
48:08promise often it starts with how or why
48:11every one of these besides number two
48:13starts with how or why because we're in
48:16the business of answering questions and
48:19explaining processes the how and the why
48:22so that's a a standard one and people on
48:25YouTube are curious and they to have an
48:27answer an answer to a problem then
48:29there's thumb thoughts and this has been
48:32updated a little bit since uh this video
48:35we have a little bit more sophisticated
48:36kind of
48:37packaging sometimes we'll check comps on
48:40one of 10 which is like a you know shows
48:42videos in this topic that have done well
48:44and how they've been packaged where do
48:46you see that um one of 10 is one of
48:48these tools I think view stats is
48:50another like the these tools where you
48:51can be like Mormons you just type in
48:52Mormons and then it will be like this
48:55video about Mormons did did 50x the
48:58normal views on this channel because and
49:01we think because it was packaged like
49:02this so we sort of look at
49:04that I put in some imagery that could
49:08work as a direction for the thumb we
49:11could lean into this Illuminati energy
49:13we could lean into the map um those are
49:16different directions and now that
49:17there's AB testing we want to have very
49:20different directions so we can test did
49:22the people want the map or did they want
49:23the Illuminati whereas before we were
49:25always tinkering with just one one kind
49:27of Direction and like refining it now we
49:29try multiple different directions and
49:32then there's all the you know this just
49:34has to get done social description like
49:36what's going to how we're going to post
49:37this all the all this stuff this feels
49:40less like you need to be doing it I I
49:42don't do any of this okay
49:45um and then s the sources are again I
49:49don't this is a lot of like publishing
49:51stuff yeah um the packaging I think on
49:54although again is like is kind of
49:56becoming the packaging expert on the
49:58team um and then you'll see an outline
50:02here which is just me again the backbone
50:04was predefined because it's a history
50:06this is me curating what parts of the
50:08history I think I'm going to write and
50:10this comes before or this comes before
50:12this is like I've read the info do I
50:15know what all the information is I'm
50:17going to now curate the sections that I
50:20think are going to go in I'm not
50:21thinking about visuals I'm just thinking
50:23about backbone and chronology and flow
50:25and promise
50:27and so This Promise what's promise
50:28promise every every story is effectively
50:31a promise what what makes someone pay
50:33attention to a story
50:35is anticipation that they're going to be
50:40that that some promise is going to be
50:41fulfilled so how Mormons stole the west
50:45or whatever is a promise that I am going
50:47to explain how Mormons stole the West um
50:50and so I need to make sure that this
50:52somewhat fulfills that otherwise the
50:55packaging could be so overly
50:58disconnected from the the what is
51:00fulfilled in the video that like people
51:02feel betrayed now again I do have this
51:05secret belief that like with enough
51:07enthusiasm and Beauty you can enliven
51:11curiosity in people that they didn't
51:12know they had and my favorite comment is
51:16I had no idea I would watch a 20 minute
51:19video about ice cream machines yeah but
51:22like I don't know how you did that but
51:23like thanks and like I love that cuz I'm
51:26like
51:27if you can find if you can find the the
51:29Beauty and the enthusiasm in like kind
51:32of mundane things life becomes a lot
51:34more interesting and so one of the
51:36promises of the channel generally is
51:38like in sort of cultivating and en
51:40living enlivening that kind of curiosity
51:43in people but we think in terms of
51:45promises ni with our audience y I want
51:48to jump into the different kinds of
51:50writing that you have cuz you have these
51:51different categories one thing that's
51:53really unique about you is you have
51:55really created your own Lang anguage to
51:57describe your aesthetic sensibilities
52:00interesting you said it's not explainer
52:02it's not history it's not technical it's
52:04contemplative and often used to
52:06highlight the paradoxes and complexities
52:08of human
52:09stories and it leads into what you're
52:13saying here which is history has been B
52:16born by the people who live on these
52:18islands the human wall that protected
52:21the country and might have to do so
52:24again the people who live among the
52:26undetonated bombs and the abandoned
52:29bones that have little hope of ever
52:31being recognized this isn't just the
52:32words there is music and visuals and
52:36pacing that takes that writing and
52:39expresses it in its fullness for me and
52:42it's really important because I deal in
52:45a lot of technical stuff macroeconomics
52:48and you know international relations
52:50Jaron and one thing I really want always
52:53is that it is grounded at some point to
52:57the fact that this is about humans this
52:59is about people it's not just about
53:00ideas so I will often do this pivot from
53:03like very technical history play-by-play
53:07writing to a reminder that there's
53:11tension and complexity and gray area at
53:15the heart of a lot of these stories that
53:17are that in the news are often reduced
53:20down into big forces and and and sort of
53:23nameless faceless soulless entities yeah
53:26the government did this da D and and I
53:29also believe that it is a sweet and sour
53:31experience where people will get some
53:35kind of cognitive stimulation from
53:38learning but then you can transfer to
53:41this other tone that is softer less
53:44precise and people get something out of
53:47that as well and and switching between
53:49the two from like a cognitive or thinky
53:52is tone to a fey tone is in music with
53:56visuals and in language to me is makes
54:00the presentation more engaging more
54:02compelling I think people remember it
54:03for longer they remember what they felt
54:05undetonated bombs abandoned bones yeah
54:09concrete yeah and and and kind of you
54:13don't think of bombs and Bones next to
54:15each other there's obviously literation
54:16in it but like there's visuals there
54:19that are evocative and I'm I'm showing
54:21bones there's a guy who goes out and
54:22looks for the bones of the Dead from the
54:24Battle of okanawa and and I went with
54:26the bomb squad to un to detonate these
54:28bombs that was a part of the story but
54:30to wrap it up in and put them next to
54:33each
54:34other reflected that kind of emotional
54:37tone that I think is really important
54:38for these stories so this is what you're
54:40saying between the difference between
54:41the explainer voice and the poetic voice
54:44yeah it's less precise it's more human
54:49it's more complex there's not firm
54:51answers there's you're raising questions
54:54and you're showing complexity
54:57when we think of journalists we often
54:58think of this sort of detached Observer
55:00who's almost even adversarial to
55:03whatever it is that they're covering and
55:04they're distanced from it and you see
55:07that distance both with the journalist
55:09and the subject that they're covering
55:10but also there's often a distance
55:12between the journalist and the reader
55:14there's sort of this on high expert and
55:17the reader is like oh let me learn from
55:19you totally one of the things that you
55:21do in your writing is that you at least
55:24in your relationship with the viewer
55:26more of a friend hey come over here sit
55:29down on the couch with me let me show
55:31you something we can look at it together
55:33and I think that this is an example of
55:35where you do that so here it
55:37goes I want to show you what this map
55:39says and show you how China uses craphy
55:42to assert and project power in its
55:45region this is doing a couple of
55:48things it's equalizing the journalist
55:52and the viewer I want to show you I'm a
55:54friend who's really curious look you
55:56seen me at the computer tapping around
55:58wrestling with this map I want to I I've
56:00discovered something let me show you
56:03that to me is a framing that's very
56:06genuine by the way it's an enthusiasm
56:08that that comes from how I relate to my
56:11friends and how I relate to the world
56:13but I've funneled it into my writing and
56:15my presentation because I think that
56:17it's how viewers want to be spoken to I
56:19think they want to be challenged but at
56:21the same time they want to be let in
56:23they want to be um spoken to is like hey
56:27I know you're smart you can get this but
56:29like you may not know about this let me
56:30show you it's another Hallmark of the
56:32the classic style that that um Pinker
56:35talks about and it's it is let me show
56:38you and then directing their gaze to
56:41interesting things and describing them
56:43in plain ways that that are
56:45accessible but within that we're
56:48discussing a lot of rigorous deep
56:51complex stuff but it's in this way that
56:55inv invites people in instead of makes
56:58them feel like oh this is only for the
57:01smart people and and journalists often
57:03will use language that is meant for
57:05their peers not for Their audience they
57:07will they will say look at how much I
57:09know I'm really smart and I need my
57:11peers at the other journalism Outlets to
57:13know that I'm not speaking in plain
57:14language and that to me is like that is
57:16the curse of of um of a lot of writing
57:22but especially writing that is meant for
57:24the masses but often turns into this
57:26sort of
57:28gatekeeper uh writing for for peers
57:30instead of audience this is slightly
57:33tangential but Cleo Abram has a line
57:35where she says that most people
57:36overestimate how much context the
57:38audience has and underestimates their
57:41intelligence and you should do the
57:42opposite say most people have no idea
57:45what it is that we're talking about they
57:46just don't have the context but they're
57:48actually really smart and if you talk to
57:50them like they're smart give them the
57:51context but then talk to them like
57:53they're smart and that doesn't mean use
57:55big words but actually like you're
57:57saying challenge them and push them to
58:00understand something that's a little bit
58:02more challenging yeah absolutely also
58:04lets defenses down I think I experienced
58:07this when somebody invokes like a
58:09celebrity name or a thing that I should
58:10know about and I don't know and I feel
58:13myself pretending that I know yeah you
58:15get into this defensive space where
58:17you're suddenly in like a I'm not
58:19curious anymore I'm afraid to be called
58:20out and
58:22so embracing a sense of like hey all of
58:25us to learning together puts people in
58:27this space of
58:30learning that that I believe creates a
58:34better absorption mhm and so I think
58:36little subtle cues like let me show you
58:39is a is a great way to set the tone and
58:42then in addition that line also promises
58:44there's a lot more going on that's a
58:45hook device that's a way of saying like
58:47hey stick around there's a lot more
58:49going on with this map I'm going to show
58:51it to you that that's a promise yeah I
58:54mean that is Absol absolutely one of the
58:56themes of your writing is you are
58:58constantly saying there's a lot more
59:00going on there's a lot more going on hey
59:02check out this thing it's really
59:03interesting you should know about it and
59:05you say that constantly without ever
59:06saying that explicitly yeah yeah and
59:09it's I think that that's a kind of a
59:12retention thing meaning like hey stick
59:13around I promise this is going to get
59:15interesting uh but I think that's also
59:17good storytelling I think good
59:18storytelling is always saying like
59:21foreshadowing and kind of letting you
59:23see a little bit ahead but then so that
59:26you are compelled to stick around and be
59:28engrossed in the now and that kind I
59:30don't do that I don't calculate that but
59:32that is that is something that I think
59:34has naturally occurred in my writing how
59:36did you learn that sense of how to tell
59:38a story um honestly like my best theory
59:42on this because I don't know I didn't
59:45grow up thinking about story or
59:48journalism or anything you know um what
59:50I did grow up doing was not being very
59:53good at learning and not being good at
59:57uh learning that the way that you're
59:59supposed to learn and developing a
1:00:01pretty strong resentment
1:00:03towards uh the kind of know- it all this
1:00:05is the way it is and these big words
1:00:07signal that you're smart and I wasn't
1:00:10that and I was a visual person and I
1:00:12wanted to understand and so I think a
1:00:14lot of my style comes from the way I
1:00:18wish it had been described to me and
1:00:21actually the in my early 20s it hit me
1:00:24like there isn't some special skill that
1:00:26I wasn't born with it's that people
1:00:29aren't explaining it in a way that's
1:00:31accessible and so I I'm often
1:00:34empathizing with how I would want to
1:00:36hear it and how I think the audience
1:00:38actually wants to hear it this is what
1:00:40you said reflecting on it this from a
1:00:41talk in
1:00:422019 you say if you watch Vox videos
1:00:45you'll hear a lot of this is something
1:00:47and it's like circling something on a
1:00:49document in animation talk to me about
1:00:51that yeah so very similar to letting
1:00:55people in
1:00:56the language we use is active and it's
1:01:01actively talking to the viewer it's not
1:01:03just saying facts about the world it is
1:01:06saying look at this and often there's a
1:01:09motion that goes with that it's a circle
1:01:12we we draw the eye or we direct the eye
1:01:14to things there's a lot going on on a
1:01:16screen and so you say look at this and
1:01:18it goes over and it circles like a
1:01:20little Zoom type thing yes or it shines
1:01:22or something little subtle thing to be
1:01:24like this is what you should be looking
1:01:25at and reading
1:01:27it turns out that when you speak to the
1:01:29viewer in in in that inviting way and
1:01:32you direct their eye to visuals that's a
1:01:35really rich experience we're visual
1:01:37creatures we have a lot of our brain
1:01:39dedicated to visual processing so when
1:01:41they can have cognitive information
1:01:43flowing in from an inviting voice and
1:01:46they can have that visual experience
1:01:48dancing together you know frame by frame
1:01:52it's a really pleasant experience I
1:01:54think Vox that that is what they really
1:01:57pioneered was was leaning into that
1:01:59style and and I'm really grateful
1:02:01because I learned a lot Vox was so far
1:02:04ahead yeah I mean it was it was crazy
1:02:07the Vox explainer style oh my goodness I
1:02:09mean I remember vividly Vox did an
1:02:13interview with Barack Obama like 2015
1:02:152016 it's got this black black room and
1:02:19then it's got these animations and it
1:02:23fell like 5 years in the future my
1:02:25goodness that was
1:02:26that that interview was being made when
1:02:28I right as I started and I was like so I
1:02:31was like I am walking into the coolest
1:02:34place ever because they're interviewing
1:02:35the president but they're doing these
1:02:37cool minimalistic animations on top if
1:02:39that was published now it would feel
1:02:41futuristic toally yeah I I believe that
1:02:46what Vox had the the the the the
1:02:48chemical reaction of all of those people
1:02:51at that time in that moment in video
1:02:54journalism created something really
1:02:56special and I was so lucky to to to walk
1:03:00in at that time and be influenced and to
1:03:03fuse what I had going which was like a
1:03:05visual kind of again wanting to explain
1:03:07things in a certain way with what Vox
1:03:09had going my style and my Approach is
1:03:12completely like that was my boot camp
1:03:15and and the the people on that team
1:03:17really taught me how to do this how was
1:03:21writing at Vox with a team under an
1:03:23institution different from then writing
1:03:25on your own now at first it wasn't very
1:03:28different because Vox was this kind of
1:03:30wild west petri dish of like we don't
1:03:33really know what the Vox vo is totally
1:03:36especially the video team they really
1:03:38let me do whatever
1:03:42and and I I really owe so much to that
1:03:45freedom because they gave me support and
1:03:48they and they taught me how to be
1:03:49factual and rigorous in my journalism
1:03:53but voice and style they just said it
1:03:55needs to be good and cool and there was
1:03:57a lot of pressure to make it good and
1:03:58cool and so I flourished in that but I
1:04:00wasn't prescribed a way to do it so with
1:04:04time as the as it grew and it became a
1:04:07little more centralized a little more
1:04:08corporate there it started to to kind of
1:04:11the walls started to close in on me a
1:04:12little
1:04:13bit to unify a little bit with the vibe
1:04:17and that's when I jump ship yeah cuz I'm
1:04:19I'm a I'm a bit of a like I need to kind
1:04:21of just be a stallion it's hard to be
1:04:24constrained so that that sort of led me
1:04:26out tell me about these pillars of
1:04:28YouTube writing frankly I forgot where I
1:04:30found these visual plain clear concrete
1:04:35yes yes yes yes I
1:04:37mean I think I think those words do a
1:04:41great job of summarizing a lot of the
1:04:43themes we've talked about today it is
1:04:46trying to empathize with your viewer and
1:04:48sharing and YouTube is a great place for
1:04:50this because YouTube is the original
1:04:52showand tell platform and so it it is it
1:04:55is all ready a place where it's a very
1:04:57warm room for let me show you
1:04:59this that inviting clear plain language
1:05:03there's not a lot of tolerance for
1:05:04pontificating and for you know like like
1:05:07kind of really laborious language and so
1:05:10I really believe that like the more
1:05:12human you can make it and the more
1:05:14relatable and conversational the more
1:05:17concrete like the more the platform were
1:05:20rewarded and by the platform I mean the
1:05:21people on the platform who come to
1:05:23YouTube for a more democratized
1:05:25experience
1:05:26mhm and tell me about specifics we've
1:05:29talked a lot about specific data points
1:05:32specific stories how do you balance
1:05:35specifics meaning hey this is legitimate
1:05:39I really looked into this and I'm going
1:05:42to kind of bring this to life versus the
1:05:44specifics of your grandpa at dinner
1:05:47who's talking about the war for way too
1:05:49long and you're just like dude let's get
1:05:52on with it you know this is the the
1:05:54tension at the heart of what we do which
1:05:56is we deal in really complex stuff
1:05:58sensitive political stuff and then we
1:06:00have to make it plain and concrete and
1:06:02visual which is inherently a a a an
1:06:06exercise of reducing and
1:06:08simplifying and there's no easy answer
1:06:12to how where you draw the line what's
1:06:14too simple uh what to include and what
1:06:17to leave out so discretion is is is
1:06:21something that you develop over time and
1:06:24I always feel sensitive to the fact that
1:06:26there is a way more complex deeper story
1:06:30at the heart of every story I tell right
1:06:33but I believe that surfacing it and
1:06:37simplifying it and storytelling it lets
1:06:41millions of people who otherwise would
1:06:42have never engaged with that complex
1:06:45story have access to it and I can do it
1:06:48in this way that does include little
1:06:50tidbits of rigor and Humanity to it and
1:06:53that's why I do these these
1:06:54contemplative emot moment to be like hey
1:06:57there's a deeper like more complex going
1:06:59on here I'm not going to get into it
1:07:01unless I was doing a 10 part feature
1:07:03documentary but like it's here I'm going
1:07:05to try to like summarize it um and
1:07:08poetic language is is good for that it's
1:07:10better for that
1:07:12so I I I rest good at night knowing that
1:07:15I'm making these stories accessible even
1:07:18if I'm simplifying them and how do you
1:07:20think about surprise and elements of
1:07:23surprise like for what good videos have
1:07:27you said it has to be visual it has to
1:07:29be surprising has to be naturally
1:07:31interesting I'd assume that's true for
1:07:33the writing too like if you can get
1:07:35those three components the the visual
1:07:38the surprise the naturally interesting
1:07:40it's almost like you have this um this
1:07:43wind a Tailwind behind you absolutely
1:07:46the writing is actually some of the most
1:07:48important for making something
1:07:50surprising
1:07:51because when you are talking about
1:07:54something you can talk about you can be
1:07:56an llm and you can have your training
1:07:59data say how has everyone else said this
1:08:01I'm going to say it just like them and
1:08:02just fill in the next word and it's
1:08:04going to sound like everyone else who's
1:08:06talking about that topic or you can be a
1:08:08human and say I am going to say this
1:08:12thing in a completely different way but
1:08:15it's still the same thing I let me think
1:08:17of an example on this because this is I
1:08:19think we go to the Antartica anartica is
1:08:20the best
1:08:22example how did we get this a map so
1:08:26detailed so
1:08:28precise that guys like this would have
1:08:31thought it was magic an impossibility
1:08:33made manifest by superhumans in the
1:08:35future one of their fellow explorers
1:08:38Ernest Shackleton Drew this place on the
1:08:40back of a menu once dreaming of someday
1:08:43Crossing this whole continent and paying
1:08:45a huge price to
1:08:47try this is a place that has lured
1:08:50explorers from all over killing many of
1:08:53them this is a story of about Antarctica
1:08:56and mapping it's kind of a wonky story
1:08:59uh it could be it could be a very wonky
1:09:01like map
1:09:03story but what I experimented with this
1:09:07in this is is trying to do exactly what
1:09:08we just talked about using the most
1:09:11surprising unorthodox language to talk
1:09:14about something that could easily be
1:09:16talked about in the most predictable
1:09:17language mhm which is like the history
1:09:20of some British person exploring
1:09:23Antarctica and the technology around
1:09:26uh satellite mapping like you could just
1:09:28jargon the hell out of that I thought
1:09:31what if we put the lens of pure beauty
1:09:35and awe on and we looked through that
1:09:40and we described everything almost as if
1:09:42like an alien was arriving and saying
1:09:45like how did they do this like and then
1:09:48they and use all this unorthodox
1:09:49language the intro kind of does that but
1:09:51as the piece goes on I I think the
1:09:54analogy here I don't know if this will
1:09:55work but like is a
1:09:57canal and most of us want to communicate
1:10:00in the bottom of the canal that's the
1:10:01path of lease resistance that's what
1:10:03we've heard we've heard the words a
1:10:05million times in the bottom of the canal
1:10:07if you want to do surprising language
1:10:08you have to climb up the wall of the
1:10:10canal and you have to be rting on the
1:10:11bank of the canal and it's harder and
1:10:14it's like you're kind of like always
1:10:15sort of climbing up there to find
1:10:17language that's fresh and new to
1:10:19describe the same stuff and it's often
1:10:21more active and more plain but boy when
1:10:24you do it it
1:10:25someone can relate and see a topic that
1:10:29could be so boring in in this totally
1:10:32different surprising way and is you're
1:10:35writing these videos do you have like a
1:10:37process all right act one intro act two
1:10:40this act through that you've written so
1:10:41many videos you must have them by now
1:10:43there's never I've never identified with
1:10:46these kind of classical
1:10:48formats um of like rising action and T
1:10:52and like the fall and then the the
1:10:54climax and then the descending like all
1:10:56those like formulas I've never
1:10:57identified with those maybe if I was
1:10:59doing fiction or something that would
1:11:01make more sense but there's no format
1:11:04for me it comes out really
1:11:07intuitively on how I think it should go
1:11:10and I don't totally know what it's going
1:11:11to feel like as I'm writing it in the
1:11:13pacing um and sometimes it's 20 minutes
1:11:17and sometimes it's 40 minutes and that's
1:11:19what I love about being able to to do it
1:11:20on YouTube is like no one's forcing me
1:11:22into a format yeah and I don't actually
1:11:24believe in some ultimate format I think
1:11:27that's that's like a kind of a myth that
1:11:30like humans only identify with with this
1:11:32kind of structure how has all the time
1:11:35you spent reading The Economist factored
1:11:37into what we've spoken about so the
1:11:39economist is a very good example of
1:11:43classic style where they will describe
1:11:46things as this person did something as
1:11:50opposed to like describing in these sort
1:11:51of conceptual jargon terms and they'll
1:11:54they'll usually do it in um really plain
1:11:58quippy terms The Economist does a really
1:12:02good job of identifying what is
1:12:04interesting about a topic and then doing
1:12:07the work to to find the details that
1:12:09people actually want to know which is a
1:12:11lot more work and surfacing those what's
1:12:15an example of that the economist just
1:12:17did an interview the first interview
1:12:19actually with the the new Syrian leader
1:12:21the rebel leader who who threw out Assad
1:12:23and is now um effectively running the
1:12:26country and that
1:12:29piece
1:12:32describes um the context and it goes
1:12:34through the history and all the stuff
1:12:35but then it will suddenly say
1:12:37like he's got a a tough job in front of
1:12:40him uh the palace which is five times
1:12:44larger than the White House is Echoes
1:12:47with emptiness and there wasn't even
1:12:49staff to serve coffee that was a moment
1:12:52a human moment where we're talking about
1:12:54the the GE politics of the Middle East
1:12:56wow we're talking about and then and
1:12:58then we are able to just drop into this
1:13:00room and see this new leader in this
1:13:03giant Palace that is echoing because
1:13:06it's empty and that there's not even
1:13:09someone there to to serve coffee and
1:13:11this guy is supposed to unify Sy or
1:13:13Syria and start a new country and that
1:13:16just oh like those moments those little
1:13:18details you have to be brave to like
1:13:21include that because it might fall flat
1:13:23you know like that's sort of a weird
1:13:24thing to say but it it's the exact kind
1:13:28of visual concrete example that I want
1:13:32to hear to understand the vibe of what's
1:13:34going on with this guy most people are
1:13:37reporting it as like he has taken power
1:13:39and is now trying to unify the country
1:13:41and it's like it's exactly that voice
1:13:43but the written words yes exactly and
1:13:45it's like thank you you're engaging my
1:13:47neocortex like I can't see anything I'm
1:13:49just I'm just sort of seeing unifying a
1:13:52country what does that
1:13:53mean the way the econom is able to
1:13:55surface there's a person here who
1:13:58actually has to do things and they're
1:14:00struggling is while also weaving in
1:14:03really rigorous analysis I learn a lot
1:14:06from and then I also take inspiration
1:14:07from I would say my work is much more
1:14:10peer to peer sharing ethic than the
1:14:13economist who are you taking inspiration
1:14:15from when it comes to writing yval
1:14:18Harari and sapiens is a fantastic way of
1:14:21taking the wonkiest anthropology
1:14:24evolutionary science and turning it into
1:14:27highly accessible concrete language I
1:14:29love Steven Pinker and the way that he
1:14:31writes um I love Michael pollen he
1:14:34writes from a very strong sort of um
1:14:37John Green is a is a favorite because of
1:14:40the way that he takes mundane things and
1:14:42dresses them up okay so the core thing
1:14:45that's happening here is there's a deep
1:14:48belief that you have that you can
1:14:49basically take anything and that with
1:14:52good writing and good
1:14:57storytelling you can make that thing
1:14:59come alive whether it's Harari
1:15:01anthropology whether it's Michael paen
1:15:03talking about food and plants and that
1:15:05that is actually the work of what good
1:15:07writing is is to see the sense of
1:15:09possibility in something and to breathe
1:15:12life into it yes and what is so
1:15:14beautiful about that is that there is
1:15:17endless subject matter yeah because
1:15:20everything is interesting everything is
1:15:22interesting everything has a story
1:15:25it just needs to have that life breathed
1:15:27into it and as a Storyteller you are
1:15:30able to create an infectious sense of
1:15:33enthusiasm that can bring someone in
1:15:36that's why for me like I don't have a
1:15:38beat I I do International stuff but like
1:15:41the I do the history of Mormons and I
1:15:42talk about Doritos and I talk about you
1:15:45know the psychology of boredom like it
1:15:47doesn't matter what the topic is it
1:15:49matters what the approach is to thinking
1:15:52about it and
1:15:55that to me is the great mission of the
1:15:57channel is modeling curiosity what's
1:16:00cool about the way that you think about
1:16:03enthusiasm is when I hear the word
1:16:05enthusiasm what I think of is all right
1:16:07guys we're going to talk about this
1:16:08thing and we're going to do this this
1:16:10this this this and for you it's kind of
1:16:13a it's a contemplative beauty that then
1:16:16becomes craftsmanship and there's like
1:16:19this my senses from studying your
1:16:21process hearing you today is there's
1:16:23this moment this almost transition where
1:16:25something gets imbued with the sense of
1:16:27Soul and Spirit late in the process and
1:16:29it kind of comes alive and that to me
1:16:33feels like when it's time to publish the
1:16:34video and all this is to say that your
1:16:37enthusiasm shows up in the work that it
1:16:40takes to really turn something into a
1:16:42work of art Beyond just mere facts and
1:16:45figures totally it has to be present at
1:16:49the beginning when I'm thinking about El
1:16:51Chapo's tunnels yep I have to have a
1:16:54glim of like what's going on there I and
1:16:57I and I usually will see visions of
1:17:00really kind of fractured visions of like
1:17:02what this could be like the vibe of it
1:17:05the actual video very very rough and
1:17:08Broad but that has to exist and then you
1:17:11start to descend into reality where
1:17:14where where you actually have to find
1:17:16the facts and and decide how this you
1:17:19know the art Direction all this work and
1:17:21that there's a moment always where it's
1:17:23like boy this is not nearly as cool as
1:17:25it was when we started like this is way
1:17:28harder every single person listening to
1:17:31this episode can relate to that and and
1:17:33that that wrestle is one I know very
1:17:35well now and the the work of
1:17:38Storytelling is to remember what it was
1:17:41like at the beginning and hold that hold
1:17:44that Curiosity even when you get into
1:17:47that curse of knowledge where you know
1:17:48too much about the topic and you forget
1:17:51what it what it feels like to be curious
1:17:53and to not know you have to hold it and
1:17:55guard it and then you have to push it up
1:17:57the other side of the valley and that is
1:18:00the work of getting it story ready but
1:18:02the it has to happen at the beginning
1:18:04and then it has eventually hopefully
1:18:06gets to the end where that where that
1:18:07Curiosity stays but it but it always is
1:18:10there at the beginning for me what do
1:18:11you feel like you're working on what is
1:18:13it the frontier of your skills where
1:18:16your sense of possibility of who you
1:18:18could be as a Creator and a writer far
1:18:20exceeds where you actually are right now
1:18:23by far the e easily the thing that I'm
1:18:25working on is
1:18:29inviting characters in h
1:18:32inviting human stories that help do what
1:18:38I'm trying to do with the contemplative
1:18:40kind of Cur like like Poetic voice they
1:18:43can do it because they're the people
1:18:45living
1:18:46it one of the sort of weaknesses of this
1:18:50very intentional
1:18:52process is that it all has to funnel
1:18:54through my eyes yeah and it all has to
1:18:56funnel through my process mhm and as a
1:18:59Storyteller you know for a long time
1:19:01that that control is really nice because
1:19:03you get to really craft
1:19:05something but after a while you think
1:19:07well I'm just one brain like what what
1:19:11would happen if I brought this person
1:19:13who was a really interesting story and I
1:19:15helped facilitate their experience and I
1:19:17used all my sensibility with writing to
1:19:19to build that up that's not a skill set
1:19:22I have I mean I have it I have Little
1:19:24Seeds of it and I've done it to some
1:19:26degree but really emphasizing someone
1:19:28else's story is something I want to do
1:19:30have you done the sort of a strange
1:19:33question have you done personality
1:19:35studies because my bet is you are super
1:19:38super super high on some sort of empathy
1:19:41and ability to understand somebody
1:19:44else's experience both in how they live
1:19:46and how they experience the Arc of
1:19:49watching your videos see I I don't know
1:19:51if that's true I mean that might be that
1:19:53might be true to some degree
1:19:55and this is like a kind of vulnerable
1:19:56thing to say but
1:19:59I I believe that as a story teller I
1:20:04often
1:20:06emphasize
1:20:08understanding and conceptual
1:20:12understanding over human stories meaning
1:20:15I really focus on I want you to
1:20:17understand how this thing works MH now
1:20:19that doesn't mean I don't bring it I I
1:20:21have I make gestures towards like hey
1:20:22there's there's humans here Etc but I
1:20:26believe and I've started to see this as
1:20:28I go into the field now more and more
1:20:30where I'm starting to crave more of like
1:20:32okay I know what I'm going to say about
1:20:33it I know how this thing works now but
1:20:35like what is it really like to be you
1:20:38not just like I'm going to spend a few
1:20:39minutes getting a few sound bites but I
1:20:41think as I mature as a Storyteller that
1:20:44empathy in storytelling is I'm starting
1:20:47to thirst for it a little bit more and I
1:20:50and I haven't been driven by that as
1:20:53much that I I really don't want to
1:20:54undersell like I do emphasize human
1:20:57stories and like that that is an
1:20:58important part of it but I think I have
1:21:00a lot of room to grow there and I'm
1:21:01excited about that that's an exciting
1:21:03challenge for me I think it's the next
1:21:04chapter one thing that you haven't
1:21:06really spoken about is retention and the
1:21:10YouTube game and I'm not saying let's go
1:21:14talk about it I'm just saying that
1:21:15that's a revealing thing that you're
1:21:17Focus so much on
1:21:19craftsmanship and you talk to a lot of
1:21:21creators where they're like I'm looking
1:21:23at this thing and this thing and this
1:21:24thing and you haven't mentioned that and
1:21:28that's cool because you've been able to
1:21:30thrive at this game by not obsessing
1:21:33over that yeah we definitely play the
1:21:38game but craftsmanship is number one and
1:21:41and we've sort of a long time ago
1:21:42realized that there is an audience who
1:21:45comes because they want a really
1:21:48authentic handmade thing and that we can
1:21:53optimize
1:21:54and we can thumbnail test and do all
1:21:56these things and we've done it we've
1:21:58gone we've we've gone down those
1:22:00datadriven rabbit holes several times
1:22:02and we always sort of come out on the
1:22:03other side with a few lessons that we're
1:22:05like all right this will improve our
1:22:06process but never it's never become the
1:22:08heart of our strategy ever the strategy
1:22:11is spread high quality curiosity and
1:22:16there's there's an audience for that and
1:22:17that happens when individuals creators
1:22:21are exercising their passions which is
1:22:23why in addition to my channel we've now
1:22:24launched two other channels with at the
1:22:26heart of it a creator with a thing to
1:22:29say and it's their style and they they
1:22:31do it and and we're going to keep doing
1:22:34that that is our that is our future is
1:22:36building out this Media company that
1:22:38that helps launch journalists with
1:22:40individual Brands MH because yes we can
1:22:42optimize but in especially in a world of
1:22:45AI like human excitement and enthusiasm
1:22:48and
1:22:49passion people love that and and we
1:22:52don't want to get away from that in the
1:22:53name of data and optimization so you
1:22:56feel that human excitement and and
1:22:58enthusiasm is the antidote to the AI
1:23:01creep I I I think so I think it's one
1:23:05um I think the the example I've seen a
1:23:08lot is like in the 80s when computers
1:23:10got better than humans at chess we
1:23:12didn't just watch computers play chess
1:23:13all day we still wanted the tension of
1:23:16two humans playing chess even though the
1:23:18computer was way better and it's like
1:23:20the computer would have a way more
1:23:21sophisticated game we want
1:23:24humans to to be in we want to experience
1:23:27life through humans and I believe the
1:23:29same thing will be true in in large
1:23:31sectors of of the AI world where like
1:23:34the AI is going to get much better
1:23:36objectively at doing a lot of things
1:23:38that humans do
1:23:39now there's what are those pockets of of
1:23:43places that humans will want to watch
1:23:45humans do things and I think that
1:23:47journalism and storytelling I'm betting
1:23:49on will always be that humans want to
1:23:52hear another human tell stories that's
1:23:54the old list human ritual and I don't
1:23:56think it's going to go away I want I
1:23:57want to know how El Chapo escaped from
1:23:59prison that sounds cool that sounds cool
1:24:02right uh so final question so if you're
1:24:04speaking to a group of University
1:24:06students or something like that and they
1:24:07want to learn how to do what you do and
1:24:09you got a semester to teach them how do
1:24:11you structure that
1:24:13curriculum it's hard because if I'm
1:24:15speaking purely from my experience a big
1:24:18part of that curriculum is spending a
1:24:20lot of time in the trenches learning
1:24:23visual technical skills
1:24:25which are
1:24:26not quick and easy to learn like
1:24:29wrestling with animation and Photoshop
1:24:32and illustrator and learning how to
1:24:33express something visually with the
1:24:36tools that you have your hands on has
1:24:38been the Gateway for me to become a
1:24:41better writer and
1:24:43Storyteller um because I was an animator
1:24:45before I knew how to write right and and
1:24:47and my writing is intrinsically tied to
1:24:49how I think about visual expression so
1:24:53that's been my path now Cleo who who is
1:24:56obviously insanely good at this and a
1:24:57very close friend of ours um is is a she
1:25:02has spent time in the
1:25:03trenches uh and learned animation and
1:25:07taught herself all this stuff but like
1:25:09she would have a different answer to
1:25:11that um so it's not the only way like I
1:25:15think the one thing that unifies all of
1:25:17us
1:25:19is
1:25:21finding the things that you want to
1:25:25understand deeply really being able to
1:25:26identify them and then cultivate that
1:25:29lean into that and and try to
1:25:32communicate them to somebody else and at
1:25:34first the work is going to be terrible
1:25:36and bad and if you can push through that
1:25:39and get that out of your system which is
1:25:40reps and Reps and Reps you start to see
1:25:43a product that is actually reflective of
1:25:46how you imagined it at the beginning but
1:25:48there's really no skipping that that
1:25:50kind of process so that's a a long way
1:25:53of saying
1:25:55you have to put in the Reps and if you
1:25:58can find a way where that is authentic
1:26:00to you you'll have the energy to put in
1:26:02the Reps yeah the metal lesson that I
1:26:04took from today which is the thing that
1:26:06I admire the most about you is you just
1:26:08care so much you care so much about your
1:26:10work you just you really really really
1:26:12care and I think the lesson isn't copy
1:26:14what you're doing but to find the thing
1:26:15that you care about as much as you care
1:26:17about the stories that you tell the work
1:26:20that you do and uh it really shows in
1:26:23your videos it also really shows in in
1:26:25conversation thank you yeah that that
1:26:28about sums it up right
1:26:30there anything else or is that it I
1:26:32think that's it okay awesome this was
1:26:34great I never talk about this stuff so
1:26:36this is fun thanks for doing this of
1:26:37course it was fun to be here

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