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John Wayne Gacy's 1992 interview with Robert Ressler — Transcript

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0:00my question would be to you right off
0:02the bat is why
0:03after so many years of silence never
0:05having a media interview and people have
0:07said that you have given them interviews
0:09in your well that's hogwash yeah that's
0:11strictly hogwash so we're constantly
0:13told that it that i i've misquoted
0:16constantly saying that i said this and i
0:17said that that's not happening so it's
0:19pretty well established in this this is
0:21the first time you're speaking publicly
0:22about your case
0:24right yeah i've always felt that my
0:26attorneys were handling it and and they
0:28said to keep a low profile and stay away
0:30from it and
0:31uh
0:33in light of all that has been used
0:35against me in the media they've they've
0:37created this fantasy monster image and
0:39it's been going on for the last 12 years
0:41and i've ever
0:42had no comment and i had no uh need to
0:45talk to the media for the simple reason
0:47that they were looking for
0:48sensationalism and they were looking for
0:49the monster when you say fantasy monster
0:51image what are you referring to by that
0:54well the idea that that i'm i'm a
0:56homosexual thrill killer and all that
0:58that garbage and
1:00they painted this image of me that
1:03like i strolled down the streets and
1:06stalked young boys and slaughtered them
1:09hell if you could see my schedule my
1:10work schedule you know damn well that i
1:12was never out there well you you were
1:14now you were indicted convicted and
1:17sentenced on 33 counts of of of uh
1:19homicide is that correct that's correct
1:23yeah i was going to ask you in so far as
1:24sound goes if i'm down with my head does
1:27that hurt your sound quality no it's
1:29okay just don't try not to move around
1:31too much
1:33if you're breaking the sun give him a
1:34cue
1:36i ain't going to break into any song
1:38we'll go into the lead-in as to as you
1:40know you were at
1:421978. yeah you were present yeah
1:45okay that's that's where i'd like to
1:46start and i'd like to kind of what do
1:47you got here let's see your list i just
1:49like to go through the generalities
1:51maybe talk about the background of the
1:52thing the the uh the original case
1:56uh
1:58bleeping of the language i will watch
2:00the language yeah he's gonna try
2:02john does tend to slip into uh well i
2:05call it as i see it some people can't
2:07understand that
2:08all right so whenever the hell they're
2:10ready
2:11now give me kind of just an overview of
2:13the business that you eventually
2:14established the the construction work is
2:16this self-talk then the construction and
2:18yeah maintenance work i started doing
2:21painting and then i started doing
2:22wallpapering
2:23and decorating and inside of three years
2:26uh pdm which is painting decorating and
2:29maintenance was doing a million dollars
2:31a year and that was and i only had four
2:33employees and that was the business you
2:35were in at the time of the arrests
2:37that's correct
2:38pdm in 1974
2:40became a corporation
2:42and then i owned pdm contractors
2:44corporation i owned pdm plumbing pdm
2:47concrete and pdm decorating and then i
2:50branched off with another partner into
2:52rafco construction
2:54and from there
2:56we were doing strictly drugstores
2:59john now they did not search the house
3:00at that time or look through the house
3:02no
3:03according according uh afterwards
3:06they're claiming that they came to the
3:08front door of the house and knocked on
3:09the door and that i hid from them
3:11why didn't you let them in at that time
3:12when they were knocking at the front
3:13door
3:15there was no way i could have heard them
3:16i was i was way in the back of the house
3:18in the rec room on the telephone when
3:21they walked finally walked around the
3:22side of the house i could look out the
3:24picture window see them there
3:26because i was on the phone and they
3:27could see me clearly too sitting on the
3:29couch on the telephone because i was
3:31talking to my sister in regards to a
3:32death in our family
3:34so i i told her that i would call her
3:37back
3:38got up went to the door and they and he
3:40introduced himself his cousin zach and
3:41paquel and they wanted to come in and
3:42talk to me about
3:45robert piste and i told him that i had
3:47not had any conversation with him but i
3:49said if you want to talk to me
3:51then come back there
3:53we just they wanted me to come down to
3:55the police station
3:56okay well i didn't have time because i
3:58was doing work for the county and and
4:00stuff like that i went into the police
4:02station finally on the next day after
4:03this was at their cousins that i can
4:05raquel were at the house they had asked
4:07me to come in and
4:09give me an account of my whereabouts the
4:11thing of it is is that uh
4:14uh and that same day
4:17they held me there at for nine hours and
4:19while holding me there for nine hours
4:20they executed a search warrant the first
4:22search warrant was executed on december
4:2413th
4:26that is the search warrant where they
4:27claimed they went through the house
4:29looking for robert peace it was written
4:30up to be looking for robert peace and
4:32robert beast wasn't there uh the police
4:34had uh
4:36focused in on you as being the suspect
4:37and the missing boy and eventually
4:39uh well they were following me around
4:41fouling you yeah constantly and on
4:43december 13th
4:45i had made a statement to the police
4:47department and from that date forward
4:51they were had me under surveillance the
4:54only trouble is is that the mickey mouse
4:56way they were doing it they had two cars
4:58following me day and night
5:00and they had trouble keeping up with me
5:02so i used to go out to the car in the
5:03morning and tell them where i was going
5:05so in case i got lost
5:07because at the time i was doing five
5:09construction jobs
5:11in five parts of the city
5:14so in essence i was all over the place
5:17but this was like keystone cops trying
5:19to follow me around there's that one
5:21photograph of you and rosalind yeah mrs
5:23rosalyn carter well the the secret
5:24service tries to cover it up and said
5:26well
5:26we don't know how he got into the
5:28picture hell i was in charge of the
5:30reception
5:31i had to stand at the door and let them
5:32know which politicians were allowed in
5:34and which ones weren't the thing of it
5:36is but the uh
5:37the secret service wanted to cover up
5:39and make it sound like that i had no
5:41business there i was cleared and i was
5:43with secret service at the time and
5:44setting up the parade route and
5:46everything because i used to set up the
5:47parades for the polish
5:49alliance
5:51and then for three years in a row i had
5:52to set up the parades to to run
5:56and you know that's a big feat getting
5:57uh 20 000 polish people to go in one
6:00direction at one time
6:02the subdivision where the summerdale
6:04house is located is built on a clay
6:07field and when it rained the rain would
6:09come down from both ends and would flood
6:11from from one house to the other the
6:13crawl space would fill up with water in
6:161976 i asked a landscaper i said what do
6:19you do for
6:21for that sour odor of clay he said
6:23spread white lime just regular masonry
6:26lime on the ground he said it'll sweeten
6:28up the clay and you won't have that odor
6:29it's sort of like what charcoal does in
6:31filtering things
6:32that's why the line was spread in the
6:35crawl space how much line was spread
6:36down there eventually uh
6:38[Music]
6:40i think seven or eight hundred pounds of
6:42it
6:43the first search warrant was executed on
6:45december 13th
6:47however what is strange is you had 20
6:50trained officers that came into that
6:52house
6:53supposedly went down in the crawl space
6:55crawled around there was no mounds of
6:56dirt there was no odor there was no
6:58nothing
6:59i never feared anybody going down the
7:01crawl space
7:02the clowning was relaxation for me i
7:04enjoyed entertaining kids
7:06like some people are
7:09you know they
7:10they unwind in different ways either
7:12either going out drinking or that i
7:14could put on clown makeup and i was
7:15relaxed
7:16and i enjoyed doing it i was uh
7:19twice it was only twice a month that i
7:21did it yeah this was not using for a
7:23lure to to draw kids to you as uh
7:25no we would visit uh different hospitals
7:29and entertain the children there and we
7:32didn't entertain them with handcuffs or
7:33anything like that all we used was uh
7:36balloon animals and small toys and stuff
7:38like that but we also did parades and in
7:40the summertime like a fourth of july i
7:42used to be in
7:43four parades in one day i've always told
7:46people when i got into clown makeup i
7:48regressed in the childhood it was fun
7:50being a clown because you could
7:52you could be yourself or just let
7:54yourself go and act a fool you could be
7:56slapstick and funny and have a good time
7:59that's why i always enjoyed clowning
8:01clowning has taken a bad name
8:05because of what they've used in my case
8:08on a historical note your iowa
8:10conviction goes back to what year was
8:11that
8:131968 68 and what was just in in a
8:16nutshell you know without getting in too
8:18deeply what was the uh the basis of the
8:20iowa conviction
8:22the basis it was a sodomy conviction
8:25it's the only thing i i ever was
8:26sentenced to was a sodomy conviction
8:28they're claiming that the state
8:30representative son
8:31who was on the other party uh he claims
8:35that he was sexually abused by me
8:38and in essence he was blackmailing me
8:39for it now what
8:41boiled down to was oral copulation
8:44and it was consensual
8:47i moved to waterloo iowa i was honored
8:49as man of the year because besides
8:52working full-time i also
8:54you know i was a chaplain for the jc's
8:56and also ran the membership campaign and
8:59of course we used pornography
9:01we had
9:02stag shows and that's how we increased
9:04the membership from 150 to 400
9:07400 members in the jc chapter we were
9:09dealing with porno films and we we had a
9:12girl set up in a room in that
9:15so it was you know the thing to do we
9:17were boosting membership from it so
9:20nobody said a word about it at the time
9:23uh this young individual
9:26made the charge at me he was
9:27blackmailing me he wanted more and more
9:28money he said look i gave you a blow job
9:30now you got to pay for this you gotta i
9:32said
9:33go go see your father he wasn't getting
9:35along with his father
9:37but they came down heavy i mean how
9:38about your dad john you had mentioned
9:40that uh you could never really uh please
9:42him that he had
9:44talked of you and i did not hate my i
9:46didn't hate my date either but he did
9:48have a hard upbringing with him did you
9:50not
9:51my my dad came from the old country
9:53uh limited education but he was a good
9:55provider and with strong will and strong
9:58views he was also an alcoholic sorry to
10:00say was he abusive the strikeout
10:02when he he drank he was almost like a
10:04different person
10:06my dad
10:07struck all of his children all the time
10:10yeah
10:11when you paroled out where did you set
10:13up establish your residency i was i was
10:16under the interstate compact i was
10:18paroled back to illinois
10:20and you went to springfield first did
10:22you not no no directly to chicago
10:25because i had a job
10:27working at bruno's restaurant that was
10:28the requirement of interstate compact
10:31transfer you have to have a job and a
10:33place to stay i moved in with my mother
10:36and the kind of many in my head my dad
10:37had just passed away
10:39so i
10:40i lived with my mother okay and worked
10:42at bruno's as a chef
10:45when i first got out on parole for the
10:46next two years i stayed with bruno's
10:48restaurant
10:49and i worked for them
10:51but on the on the side i used to work
10:53from i used to go in at four in the
10:55morning and get off at two o'clock in
10:56the afternoon and to me that was too
10:58short of a day not enough work
11:00so i started doing odd jobs painting
11:02and
11:04i found that
11:06on the weekends
11:08the afternoons and the weekends i was
11:09making more money than i was as a chef
11:13even though i was getting 12 something
11:14an hour
11:15i borrowed 600 from my mother and
11:18through odd jobs i left the chef
11:21business
11:23i i owned pdm contractors pdm was able
11:26to work
11:2752 weeks out of the year while most
11:29construction companies set shut down for
11:30the winter
11:32i never had time to shut down because i
11:33had them on the waiting list
11:35our business was growing at that rapid
11:37rate
11:38that summerdale house was rented to pdm
11:40contractors and like the living room was
11:42the front office the dining room of that
11:45house was like a board room because it
11:47was a
11:48an eight by uh
11:50ten foot table
11:52with big caps and shares because we use
11:54it as a board boardroom for meetings
11:56john the media has has called you a
11:58homosexual killer what is your position
12:00on homosexuality i have nothing against
12:03it
12:03i'm i'm an outspoken liberal i
12:07don't care for uh
12:09uh
12:10the labeling
12:12i don't care for any labeling for that
12:13fact
12:14do you claim homosexuality no i would uh
12:18definitely not be homosexual
12:21i have nothing against what they do and
12:23i i don't
12:25deny that i've
12:28engaged in sex with males but that i'm
12:30bisexual they're bisexual right
12:33i my preference is women
12:35and i've been married enough times and
12:37have children and
12:39i see nothing wrong with it
12:41my dad had conservative values if you're
12:43out after midnight you're up to no good
12:45my dad did not believe it if you're out
12:47after dark and you didn't leave a phone
12:48number you were up to no good so i think
12:51that's why i tended to go that way more
12:53just to be the opposite of him i was
12:55married twice and just because i didn't
12:57get along in the marriages my marriages
13:00went down the drain only because i was a
13:01workaholic
13:03working uh seven days a week in there
13:05there was 12 keys out to the house 12
13:07sets of keys 12 sets of keys anybody
13:10working for pdm contractors had a set of
13:12keys
13:13for the house
13:14so you could come and go when you want
13:16it and of course my neighbors would keep
13:17me informed they would inform me god
13:19while you were out of town
13:22they must have been partying all night
13:23there
13:24who is rossi michael rossi was an
13:26employer pdm
13:28and and uh how old was he at the time
13:29who was he he was 20 years old insofar
13:32as being bisexual if i wanted to engage
13:35in sex
13:36rossi and cram were willing to go down
13:38on me anytime i wanted to providing they
13:40were given stuff now when the when the
13:42search warrants were affected in your
13:43case uh they did they did find an awful
13:45lot in the crawl space of your home did
13:47they not well yeah i had offered to sell
13:49them the house because i thought there
13:51was nothing down in the crawl space yeah
13:52i had never uh had any qualms about them
13:55going down in the crawl space well how
13:56many bodies were they
13:57located on the property and where
14:00to my understanding there was a total of
14:0329 bodies or 28 bodies were found
14:07on the property 26 27 of them under the
14:09house and the rest
14:11one was under the driveway one was under
14:13the garage
14:14so that makes a total of 29. okay
14:16now uh from the standpoint of the arrest
14:18when you were arrested in this in this
14:20matter uh uh this is snowballed it's
14:22it's snowball okay what what was the
14:25date of that arrest you call
14:27uh december 22 1978 is when i was
14:29arrested
14:34the rope trick is not
14:35the way i've described the rope trick is
14:37it's nothing more than a tourniquet
14:39and i had explained the two of them i
14:41even demonstrated it to them it cut off
14:43the air
14:44so if you're gonna kill somebody you
14:46would you just put it on their neck and
14:47twist it three times or four times or
14:49whatever until the person stopped moving
14:52and you took them where
14:54out on the i-55 bridge and that's where
14:58how was he then taken from the car and
15:01placed into the into the river
15:03just opened up the trunk and nothing man
15:06there was no there was no big special
15:08deal out there i couldn't get down in
15:10the crawl space teddies and then i had
15:11to bum back to begin with you got to
15:13crawl on your belly to move around in
15:14the crawl space
15:16there was no way that i could have done
15:17any of the digging down there
15:20i had enough trouble just getting down
15:21there gregory gregory grad sick
15:24um let's see number four
15:30gregor godzik had came come to work for
15:32me
15:35in 19
15:38according to this 1976
15:40he came to us through taft high school
15:42through a program he had worked for a
15:44republican lumber company then they came
15:45to work for us i'm not the monster image
15:48that's been portrayed in me and the only
15:50way you can make a monster images is to
15:52make it look like i stalked the streets
15:54and picked up altar boys off the street
15:56you know they want to make them look
15:57like innocent babes in the woods and i
15:59was swatting them like flies
16:01my encounters were always by happen
16:02chance if you pull up a stoplight and
16:04there's somebody standing there waiting
16:05for a bus if you give them a ride if do
16:07you ask them whether
16:09you know
16:10do you get in anything or you want or
16:12want
16:13drugs or something like that
16:14that's how it happened always a happen
16:17chance encountered
16:19a number of uh what three or four
16:20psychiatrists psychologists i had 13 of
16:23them there was six for the defense and
16:25seven for the uh the state yeah what was
16:27the state position of the defense
16:29psychiatrist what what did they feel
16:31your problem was
16:33uh what do they come up with from the
16:35standpoint of uh
16:36border uh what the hell is it god i
16:39can't remember offhand borderline
16:41personality
16:43uh anti-social behavior i don't see how
16:46anybody could be anti-social when you
16:48were involved with the public as much as
16:50i was how about the the multiple
16:51personality issue oh the multiple
16:54personality in uh
16:57came out of uh dr riefmann and hartman
17:00these two clowns from the uh
17:02from the uh cook county there they came
17:05to see me the first time i said do you
17:07want to talk to john wayne gacy the
17:09politician the clown
17:11the family man or the businessman
17:13the next day i see it in the newspaper
17:15gacy has four personalities
17:18i think one of the headlines said i was
17:19a homosexual mass murderer confessed
17:21mass murder there is no confession and
17:24we offered
17:26i offered as much as ten thousand
17:28dollars if you can produce a confession
17:29where i confess to a crime the time that
17:32i was interrogated by the police
17:33officers there was no stenographer there
17:35was no tape recording there was no
17:37videotaping
17:39nothing was ever taken down yet
17:41everywhere you'll see there's there's
17:43five confessions by john wayne gacy now
17:45if i confessed to something then why
17:47wasn't it videotaped why wasn't it
17:49recorded why wasn't the stenographer
17:51brought in had it written up and had me
17:53sign it there is no confessions in this
17:55case what i did not know about this
17:57insanity defense is that in the state of
18:00illinois when you plead not guilty by
18:01reason of insanity you're saying that
18:03you committed the crime
18:06but that you were insane at the time so
18:09it's not a question of innocent or guilt
18:11anymore what they're trying to do is
18:13your whole trial now becomes an insanity
18:16trial
18:16where you're you're
18:18to decide whether a person is sane or
18:19insane john how about tim mccoy the last
18:22one another five that you say you have
18:23personal knowledge of tim mccoy even
18:25though he's the last one he's the first
18:26one he's the first one actually
18:28right the first of the 33.
18:31tim tim mccoy was was the first one
18:34and
18:37tim mccoy's name wasn't put on him until
18:391988
18:40prior to that he was known as unknown
18:43number nine
18:44and he was buried by me in the crawl
18:46space
18:47that's the only knowledge that i have of
18:49it what was the circumstances of that
18:51he was killed in the house uh in
18:54self-defense and who killed him then
18:57i stabbed him yeah and it was a an issue
18:59with self-defense why was was he in the
19:02process of assaulting you or he was
19:03coming at me with a knife i just took
19:05the knife away and twisted in his hand
19:08and
19:09that that's what killed him
19:11so at that point uh you you yourself did
19:14bury him then in the crawl space right
19:16and if you if you notice he's under
19:18concrete did you bury any of the others
19:20in the crawl space no i had nothing i
19:22had no knowledge of yeah well why is it
19:25that yours your first one is there and
19:27then you know 20 some
19:29others are buried down there as well did
19:31somebody know that you had done this
19:33with the first one that giving them an
19:34idea more than likely when drinking and
19:36getting high with the others yeah
19:38admitting it to them
19:40so you feel others then followed your
19:42suit and in uh using this as a burial
19:44ground
19:45without a doubt yeah
19:48uh just to just want to highlight on uh
19:52john zec you know they want they want to
19:54make such an issue over john zick
19:56and his disappearance i think he was
19:57killed for his car personally
19:59and you and your personal knowledge of
20:01this of the zika uh case then is uh is
20:04my personal knowledge of the zit cases
20:06is that
20:07i had come home
20:09and zick and rossi were at the house i
20:11had a few drinks i went to bed when i
20:13woke up the next morning rossie was
20:16sleeping on the couch and zick was dead
20:17on the floor
20:19i went about my own business and he was
20:22gone
20:23later on and where did he go where did
20:25he end up i assumed he ended up in the
20:27crawl space did you see him being
20:28transported down there
20:30no wasn't present didn't do the didn't
20:32do the transporting but when he was dead
20:34he was dead on the floor he was dead on
20:36the floor yes
20:38did you have a conversation with anybody
20:39about that
20:40no
20:41in other words i uh i just kept my mouth
20:44shut because i didn't want to get
20:45involved
20:46my idea was to just stay out of it
20:49ken let's step back to your childhood
20:51what was your state of health as a child
20:54at the age of 10 i was told i had a
20:56large bottleneck heart
20:58okay and so i
21:00had a tendency to pass out a lot how
21:02about childhood illnesses did you have i
21:04mean uh accidents rather any any sort of
21:06uh injuries or accidents when i went to
21:09uh the other vocational school when i
21:11first went to the vocational school i
21:13got hit with a park swing in the side of
21:15the head caused the mastery at what what
21:17age was that
21:20approximately
21:2114 i believe got hit with a swing we got
21:24unconscious yeah i was taken to medical
21:26clinic
21:27that was at the time that's when i
21:28started seeing that i had epilepsy
21:31did you have any uh episodes of uh you
21:33know seizures yes seizures were
21:36according to the doctor they claimed
21:38that when i have an epileptic seizure i
21:40had 800 times my own strength or 800
21:43pounds of strength
21:44[Music]
21:46had you ever been sexually abused
21:48by anybody
21:49at the age of nine there was a
21:51contractor
21:53uh who was in country building building
21:56a house next door and he used to pick me
21:58up and take me for rides
22:00and always wanted to show me wrestling
22:01holes with always pinning my head in
22:03between his legs
22:04but at the time i did not look at it as
22:06sexual he was showing me wrestling holes
22:08where my head was always constantly
22:09pinned between his legs or under his
22:11legs
22:12i was 19 when i ran away and that was in
22:16in 80
22:17not 80.
22:2061.
22:22i went to las vegas for three months
22:24took off took my car and left yeah i
22:26worked for
22:28palm mortuary
22:30being the night man picking up bodies at
22:32the hospitals and stuff for them i
22:34worked as a night man only i did have
22:36nothing to do with the bodies all this
22:38talk that i slept with the dead ones or
22:40or had sex with dead bodies that there
22:42is no truth to any of that he didn't
22:44live in the um
22:45i lived in the mortuary yes but not in
22:47the embalming room i mean they make it
22:48sound like you know i slept in the crips
22:50with them and i never climbed into a
22:52coffin or anything like that that that
22:54is so damn ridiculous
22:56it you know it's the same thing the
22:57contention is that i slept all night
22:59with robert p if you want to say i slept
23:01in the same house with a dead body okay
23:03fine i'll buy that but in the same room
23:05no
23:06and besides the dead won't bother you
23:09it's the living you got to worry about
23:12i i felt things were going to work out
23:14because i knew that i didn't do the
23:15killing and i thought it would come out
23:17in the trial but amaranthi with with
23:19this insanity defense what i and again
23:22you can call it my ignorance of the law
23:23it's like i explained in a letter to
23:25chief justice william clark
23:28the evidence based
23:30is on the theory that
23:32the more sensational the case is the
23:34more crazier it sound the insanity
23:36defense would work and i still think it
23:38was stupid
23:39i i think that they did a disservice to
23:42me and they did a disservice to the
23:43victims and you know what people don't
23:45understand uh is i i feel i was
23:48wrongfully convicted for 33 murders and
23:50it was only because of sensationalism
23:52and ego the des plaines police did a
23:54sloppy investigation
23:56this is i mean it may not be the the
23:58correct way of wording it but the thing
24:00of it is is that
24:02they had other suspects and they they
24:05had tunnel vision in to say let's it's
24:07casey's house it's easier to put
24:08everything on gacy
24:10yeah your paintings uh
24:11have improved over the years i think
24:13we've seen some uh i think i've learned
24:15from each one of them i guess the same
24:16reason why i relate to michelangelo
24:18because he was a workaholic and leonardo
24:20da vinci you know people always ask me
24:22who my favorite artists are and why and
24:25i did not know that michelangelo was
24:27homosexual it doesn't make no difference
24:29to me he was a workaholic
24:31he was a sculpture he was a he was a
24:34painter and
24:36did a lot of other things
24:38da vinci was an inventor in that and of
24:41course in my life i've done painting
24:43decorating wallpapering i've done mural
24:46work
24:47you name it
24:48as you know i'm a bug about
24:50record-keeping
24:51all of my business records confirmed
24:53where i was who i was with what hotel i
24:55stayed at what what meals i ate
24:57everything was in the files
24:59and all of those files on december 29th
25:02of 1978
25:04were confiscated by the des plaines
25:05police department
25:07and those files there alone
25:09could have proven that i wasn't in
25:11illinois when 16 of these murders when
25:13they finally set the dates as to when
25:14these murders occurred you did say that
25:16you never painted yourself as an
25:18innocent
25:19uh babe in the woods that you were going
25:21over the same thing you're not going to
25:22go in basically no but i mean the point
25:24is if if you feel that
25:26uh you're not covering up your part of
25:29the the crimes but at the same time you
25:31open up the thought that others were
25:32involved would you be willing to
25:34cooperate with law enforcement people
25:36today to
25:37avail say the uh the materials that you
25:39have amassed and and to more or less
25:42pursue
25:43uh if in fact there are others that are
25:45on the streets that have been involved
25:47in these murders would you be willing to
25:48cooperate and to assist
25:50to uh to pursue that to the ends of
25:53bringing others to justice would you be
25:54willing to do that
25:55i got no problems about that but what i
25:57don't understand is why wasn't it done
25:59to begin with bob
26:01the thing of it is they want you to
26:03believe that
26:05i and i alone committed these these
26:07murders
26:09and i had nothing to do with the murders
26:10of anyone if anybody was involved then
26:12how many people uh are we talking about
26:14beside yourself we believe there was
26:16four people involved
26:18and that would be uh michael rossi david
26:21cram
26:22philip paske here we we've got a philip
26:25paske who
26:28had a newsletter going out of the cook
26:30county jail
26:32and here he is involved with a guy named
26:34john norman
26:36and john norman was running uh
26:38boys for hire
26:40they were making snuff films with young
26:42boys
26:42[Music]
26:43to me they were pimping them off they
26:45were selling them
26:47there was a crossover when we checked
26:49into john norman's background that he he
26:52goes all the way back to
26:54the early early 70s involved in
26:57he ran the norman foundation he run run
27:00epic international
27:02and the odyssey foundation out of dallas
27:04texas
27:05and these were
27:06organizations where
27:08wealthy men could hire young boys for
27:11sexual
27:12for sexual weekends
27:14male prostitutes have you ever met
27:15norman you ever had any contact with
27:17norman
27:18i have yet to see a current picture of
27:21him and and therefore i had to say no
27:25i you know phil paske may have been with
27:28him at one time or another because see
27:29again i came home from out of town at
27:31times and phil paske would be at the
27:33house drinking beer or something like
27:34that
27:35uh
27:37david cram is the one that brought
27:39uh phil paske and kisses uh cram when he
27:42wanted he didn't want to do nothing he
27:44got a hold of this guy and said well
27:45this guy can get you
27:47somebody for sex i i have a lot of
27:50things that i've forgotten that i can't
27:52remember for instance i can go back to
27:54my childhood and stuff and i still
27:55remember that but yet you can i can go
27:57into the 70s
27:58and there are a lot of things i can't
28:00remember the same thing with the victims
28:02i've looked at all of i don't know if
28:04you notice here we got pictures of every
28:05one of the victims here and believe it
28:08or not for the last 12 years i've
28:09studied these photos of these victims
28:12and
28:13there is no uh
28:15we have a shot of all of the victims
28:17together here
28:19and uh
28:20when you look over the photos i have no
28:22recollection of any of them never met
28:24them
28:25and we've gone over this more than once
28:27they're just names and faces
28:29and when you when you look at them
28:34the thing of it is we took it a step
28:35further we went into their backgrounds i
28:37wanted to know where they were at what
28:39schools they attended who they hung out
28:42with
28:43and what kind of activities they were in
28:45to and that's what we dug up on each one
28:47of the victims but still there is no
28:49association
28:51none of them never worked for me none of
28:53them
28:54they never went to any places that i
28:56ever hung around because i didn't hang
28:57around that many places unless you're
28:58involved in politics
29:00or you if you were involved in clowning
29:03then i might have ran into you but
29:04there's no way i could have run into any
29:05of them they've got all that jury that
29:08doesn't belong to the victims they've
29:09got the two clown suits that don't
29:11belong to the victim just like i
29:12consider myself the 34th victim
29:15i consider the families victims as well
29:18because they did not get
29:20justice
29:21from the shoddy investigation all the
29:23way down through
29:28as i told you when the fbi first came in
29:30to check out on me
29:32you said that you were kept out of the
29:34case back in 78 and that was only
29:36because of egos they did not want a
29:39professional coming in and doing an
29:41investigation so they did their sloppy
29:43investigation let it slide that way you
29:45see
29:46everybody was so excited about the large
29:48massive case and everybody was looking
29:50with their egos as to how they could
29:51close this thing up and you know the
29:53only one that they really hurt
29:55you've had the the victim's family vent
29:57all their hostility towards me and they
29:59think i i'm the monster that killed
30:00their son or took out their son and
30:02stuff like that
30:03when in fact most of them don't even
30:05have the remains of their own sons
30:08you know that's another thing everybody
30:09misses from this
30:11is that the victims
30:13families
30:14are are not aware
30:17that that in a lot of the cases they
30:19don't even have the remains
30:22of their own their own sons
30:24because the dr stein never turned over
30:26the whole body
30:27and they took the
30:29uh
30:30they took the heads off of each one of
30:31the victims so when you you turn over
30:34the remains to a loved loved one's
30:35family they don't have the whole body
30:39what do you actually feel that my
30:42investigation that my case has been
30:43thoroughly investigated
30:45i think john in a case like this and i
30:47find this in many many major cases that
30:49the uh
30:50things are at the time of the case are
30:52done uh uh rather hastily because of the
30:55fact that uh you know there's pressure
30:57on it yeah but that's a political answer
30:58i know i don't i don't want a political
31:00answer from you i want i want a basic
31:02answer do you actually think that the
31:04investigation in my case has been done
31:06right i believe in your case that uh
31:08that there's needs to be there should
31:10have been more uh more focus on on
31:12others as it should have been others
31:14checked out a little more thoroughly
31:15that's that's the belief i've developed
31:17over these years
31:19yeah i just think that we're kind of
31:22wrapping it up here we uh i think we
31:24accomplished something today certainly
31:25we put something down on tape that has
31:27not been said
31:29my feeling as a career law enforcement
31:30officer is that
31:33if john wayne gacy is guilty then he
31:35should be punished if john
31:36or when gacy has others involved then
31:39they should be brought in they should be
31:40punished basically i believe in total
31:43investigation and total justice and
31:45that's that's really what i've been
31:46looking for all along
31:48[Music]

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