John Wayne Gacy interview with Robert Ressler — Transcript

Full transcript

1. 0:00my question would be to you right off
2. 0:01the bat is why
3. 0:03after so many years of silence never
4. 0:05having a media interview and people have
5. 0:07said that you have given them interviews
6. 0:09in years well that's hogwash yeah that's
7. 0:11strictly hogwash so we're constantly
8. 0:13told that that i i've misquoted
9. 0:16constantly saying that i said this and i
10. 0:17said that that's not happening so it's
11. 0:19pretty well established in this this is
12. 0:21the first time you're speaking publicly
13. 0:22about your case
14. 0:24right yeah i've always felt that my
15. 0:26attorneys were handling it and and they
16. 0:28said to keep low profile and stay away
17. 0:30from it and
18. 0:31uh
19. 0:33in light of all that has been used
20. 0:35against me in the media they've they've
21. 0:37created this fantasy monster image and
22. 0:39it's been going on for the last 12 years
23. 0:41and i've ever
24. 0:42had no comment and i had no need to talk
25. 0:45to the media for the simple reason
26. 0:47that they were looking for
27. 0:48sensationalism and they were looking for
28. 0:49the monster when you say fantasy monster
29. 0:51image what are you referring to by that
30. 0:54well the idea that that i'm i'm a
31. 0:56homosexual thrill killer and all that
32. 0:58that garbage and
33. 1:00they painted this image of me that
34. 1:03like i strolled down the streets and
35. 1:06stalked young boys and slaughtered them
36. 1:09hell if you could see my schedule my
37. 1:10work schedule you know damn well that i
38. 1:12was never out there well you you were
39. 1:14now you were indicted convicted and
40. 1:17sentenced on 33 counts of of of uh
41. 1:19homicide is that correct that's correct
42. 1:23yeah i was going to ask you insofar as
43. 1:24sound goes if i'm down with my head does
44. 1:27that hurt your sound quality no it's
45. 1:29okay just don't try not to move around
46. 1:31too much
47. 1:33if you're breaking the sign give me my
48. 1:34cue
49. 1:36i ain't going to break into any song
50. 1:37we're going to the lead in as to as you
51. 1:40know you were at
52. 1:421978. yeah you were present yeah
53. 1:45okay that's that's where i'd like to
54. 1:46start and i'd like to kind of what do
55. 1:47you got here let's see your list i just
56. 1:49like to go through the generalities
57. 1:50maybe talk about the background of the
58. 1:52thing the the uh the original case
59. 1:56uh
60. 1:58bleeping of the language i will watch
61. 2:00the language yeah he's gonna try
62. 2:02john does tend to slip into uh well i
63. 2:05call it as i see it some people can't
64. 2:07understand that
65. 2:08all right so whenever the hell they're
66. 2:10ready
67. 2:11now give me kind of just an overview of
68. 2:12the business that you eventually
69. 2:14established the the construction work is
70. 2:16this self-talk then the the construction
71. 2:18and yeah maintenance work
72. 2:20i started doing painting and then i
73. 2:22started doing wallpapering
74. 2:23and decorating and inside of three years
75. 2:26uh pdm which is painting decorating and
76. 2:29maintenance was doing a million dollars
77. 2:31a year and that was and i only had four
78. 2:33employees and that was the business you
79. 2:35were in at the time of the arrests
80. 2:37that's correct pdm in
81. 2:391974 became a corporation
82. 2:42and then i owned pdm contractors
83. 2:44corporation i owned pdm plumbing pdm
84. 2:47concrete and pdm decorating and then i
85. 2:50branched off with another partner into
86. 2:52rafco construction
87. 2:54and from there
88. 2:56we were doing strictly drugstores
89. 2:59john now they did not search the house
90. 3:00at that time or look through the house
91. 3:02no
92. 3:03according according uh afterwards
93. 3:06they're claiming that they came to the
94. 3:07front door of the house and knocked on
95. 3:09the door and that i hid from them
96. 3:11why didn't you let them in at that time
97. 3:12when they were knocking at the front
98. 3:13door
99. 3:15there was no way i could have heard them
100. 3:16i was i was way in the back of the house
101. 3:18in the rec room on the telephone when
102. 3:21they walked finally walked around the
103. 3:22side of the house i could look out the
104. 3:24picture window see them there
105. 3:26because i was on the phone and they
106. 3:27could see me clearly too sitting on the
107. 3:29couch on the telephone because i was
108. 3:31talking to my sister in regards to a
109. 3:32death in our family
110. 3:34so i i told her that i would call her
111. 3:37back
112. 3:38got up went to the door and they and he
113. 3:40introduced himself his cousin zach and
114. 3:41paquel and they wanted to come in and
115. 3:42talk to me about
116. 3:44uh
117. 3:45robert piste and i had told him i had
118. 3:47not had any conversation with him but i
119. 3:49said if you want to talk to me
120. 3:51then come back there
121. 3:53we just they wanted me to come down to
122. 3:55the police station
123. 3:56okay well i didn't have time because i
124. 3:58was doing work for the county and stuff
125. 4:00like that went into the police station
126. 4:02finally on the next day after this was
127. 4:04at their cousins and pacquel were at the
128. 4:06house they had asked me to come in and
129. 4:09give me an account of my whereabouts the
130. 4:11thing of it is is that uh
131. 4:14uh then that same day
132. 4:17they held me there at for nine hours and
133. 4:19while holding me there for nine hours
134. 4:20they executed a search warrant the first
135. 4:22search warrant was executed on december
136. 4:2413th
137. 4:26that is the search warrant where they
138. 4:27claimed they went through the house
139. 4:29looking for robert peace it was written
140. 4:30up to be looking for robert peace and
141. 4:32robert greece wasn't there
142. 4:34uh the police had uh
143. 4:36focused in on you as being the suspect
144. 4:37and the missing boy and eventually uh
145. 4:40well they were following me around
146. 4:41fouling you yeah constantly and on
147. 4:43december 13th
148. 4:45i had made a statement of the police
149. 4:47department and from that date forward
150. 4:51they were had me under surveillance the
151. 4:54only trouble is is that the mickey mouse
152. 4:56way they were doing it they had two cars
153. 4:58following me day and night
154. 5:00and they had trouble keeping up with me
155. 5:02so i used to go out to the car in the
156. 5:03morning and tell them where i was going
157. 5:05so in case they got lost
158. 5:07because at the time i was doing five
159. 5:09construction jobs
160. 5:11in five parts of the city
161. 5:14so in essence i was all over the place
162. 5:17but this was like keystone cops trying
163. 5:19to follow me around there's that one
164. 5:21photograph of you and rosalind yeah mrs
165. 5:23rosalyn carter well the secret service
166. 5:25tries to cover it up and said well
167. 5:26we don't know how he got into the
168. 5:28picture hell i was in charge of the uh
169. 5:30reception i had to stand at the door and
170. 5:32let them know which politicians were
171. 5:33allowed in and which ones weren't
172. 5:35the thing that is but the uh
173. 5:37the secret service wanted to cover up
174. 5:39and make it sound like that i had no
175. 5:41business there i was cleared and i was
176. 5:43with secret service at the time and
177. 5:44setting up the parade route and
178. 5:46everything because i used to set up the
179. 5:47parades for the polish
180. 5:49alliance
181. 5:50and then for three years in a row i had
182. 5:52to set up the parades to to run
183. 5:56and you know that's a big feat getting
184. 5:57uh 20 000
185. 5:59polish people to go in one direction at
186. 6:01one time
187. 6:02the subdivision where the summerdale
188. 6:04house is located is built on a clay
189. 6:07field and
190. 6:08when it rained the rain would come down
191. 6:09from both ends and would flood from from
192. 6:11one house to the other the crawl space
193. 6:14would fill up with water in
194. 6:161976 i asked landscaper i said what do
195. 6:19you do for
196. 6:21for the that sour odor of clay he said
197. 6:23spread white lime just regular masonry
198. 6:26lime on the ground he said it'll sweeten
199. 6:28up the clay and you won't have that odor
200. 6:29it's sort of like what charcoal does in
201. 6:31filtering things
202. 6:32that's why the line was spread in the
203. 6:35crawl space how much line was spread
204. 6:36down there eventually uh
205. 6:38[Music]
206. 6:40i think seven or eight hundred pounds of
207. 6:42it
208. 6:43the first search warrant was executed on
209. 6:45december 13th
210. 6:47however what is strange is you had 20
211. 6:50trained officers that came into that
212. 6:52house
213. 6:53supposedly went down in the crawl space
214. 6:55crawled around there was no mounds of
215. 6:56dirt there was no odor there was no
216. 6:58nothing
217. 6:59i never feared anybody going down the
218. 7:01crawl space
219. 7:02the clowning was relaxation for me i
220. 7:04enjoyed entertaining kids
221. 7:06like some people are
222. 7:09you know they
223. 7:10they unwind in different ways either
224. 7:12either going out drinking or that i
225. 7:14could put on clown makeup and i was
226. 7:15relaxed
227. 7:16and i enjoyed doing it i was uh
228. 7:19twice it was only twice a month that i
229. 7:21did it yeah this was not using for a
230. 7:22lure to to draw kids to you as
231. 7:25no we would visit uh different hospitals
232. 7:29and entertain the children there and we
233. 7:32didn't entertain them with handcuffs or
234. 7:33anything like that all we used was uh
235. 7:36balloon animals and small toys and stuff
236. 7:37like that but we also did parades and in
237. 7:40the summertime like on fourth of july i
238. 7:42used to be in
239. 7:43four parades in one day i've always told
240. 7:46people when i got into clown makeup i
241. 7:48regressed in the childhood it was fun
242. 7:50being a clown because you could
243. 7:52you could be yourself or just let
244. 7:54yourself go and act a fool you could be
245. 7:56slapstick and funny and have a good time
246. 7:59that's why i always enjoyed clowning
247. 8:01clowning has taken a bad name
248. 8:05because of what they've used in my case
249. 8:08on a historical note your iowa
250. 8:10conviction goes back to what year was
251. 8:11that
252. 8:131968 68 and what was just in in a
253. 8:16nutshell you know what without getting
254. 8:18in too deeply what was the uh the basis
255. 8:20of the iowa conviction
256. 8:22the basis it was a sodomy conviction
257. 8:25it's the only thing i i ever was
258. 8:26sentenced to was a sodomy conviction
259. 8:28they're claiming that the state
260. 8:30representative's son
261. 8:31who was on the other party uh
262. 8:34he claims that he was sexually abused by
263. 8:36me
264. 8:38and in essence he was blackmailing me
265. 8:39for it now what it
266. 8:41boiled down to was oral copulation
267. 8:44and it was consensual
268. 8:47i moved to waterloo iowa i was honored
269. 8:49as man of the year because besides
270. 8:52working full-time i also
271. 8:54you know i was a chaplain for the jc's
272. 8:56and also ran the membership campaign and
273. 8:59of course we used pornography
274. 9:01we had
275. 9:02stag shows and that's how we increased
276. 9:04the membership from 150 to 400
277. 9:07400 members in that jc chapter we were
278. 9:09dealing with porno films and we we had a
279. 9:12girl set up in a room in that
280. 9:14so it was you know the the thing to do
281. 9:17we were boosting membership from it so
282. 9:20nobody said a word about it at the time
283. 9:23uh this young individual
284. 9:26made the charge at me he was
285. 9:27blackmailing me he wanted more and more
286. 9:28money he said look i gave you a
287. 9:30now you got to pay for this you gotta i
288. 9:32said
289. 9:32uh go go see your father he wasn't
290. 9:34getting along with his father
291. 9:37but they came down heavy on me how about
292. 9:38your dad uh john you had mentioned that
293. 9:40uh you could never really uh please him
294. 9:42that he had
295. 9:44talked of you and i did not hate my i
296. 9:46didn't hate my dad either but he you did
297. 9:48have a hard upbringing with him did you
298. 9:50not
299. 9:51my my dad came from the old country uh
300. 9:53limited education but he was a good
301. 9:55provider and with strong will and strong
302. 9:58views he was also an alcoholic sorry to
303. 10:00say was he abusive the strikeout
304. 10:02when he he drank he was almost like a
305. 10:04different person
306. 10:06my dad
307. 10:07struck all of his children all the time
308. 10:10yeah
309. 10:11when you paroled out where did you set
310. 10:13up establish your residency i was i was
311. 10:16under the interstate compact i was
312. 10:18paroled back to illinois
313. 10:20and you went to springfield first did
314. 10:22you not no no directly to chicago
315. 10:25because i had a job
316. 10:27working at bruno's restaurant that was a
317. 10:28requirement of interstate compact
318. 10:31transfer you have to have a job and a
319. 10:32place to stay i moved in with my mother
320. 10:36and the kind of many in my head my dad
321. 10:37had just passed away
322. 10:39so i
323. 10:40i lived with my mother okay and worked
324. 10:42at bruno's as a chef
325. 10:44when i first got out on parole for the
326. 10:46next two years i stayed with bruno's
327. 10:48restaurant
328. 10:49and i worked for them
329. 10:51but on the on the side i used to work
330. 10:53from i used to go in at four in the
331. 10:55morning and get off at two o'clock in
332. 10:56the afternoon and to me that was too
333. 10:58short of a day not enough work
334. 11:00so i started doing odd jobs painting
335. 11:02and
336. 11:04i found that
337. 11:06on the weekends
338. 11:08the afternoons and the weekends i was
339. 11:09making more money than i was as a chef
340. 11:13even though i was getting 12 something
341. 11:14an hour
342. 11:15i borrowed 600 from my mother and
343. 11:18through odd jobs i left the chef
344. 11:21business
345. 11:23i i owned pdm contractors pdm was able
346. 11:26to work
347. 11:2752 weeks out of the year while most
348. 11:29construction companies set shut down for
349. 11:30the winter
350. 11:32i never had time to shut down because i
351. 11:33had them on the waiting list
352. 11:35our business was growing at that rapid
353. 11:37rate
354. 11:38that summerdale house was running to pdm
355. 11:40contractors and like the living room was
356. 11:42the front office the dining room of that
357. 11:45house was like a board room because it
358. 11:47was a
359. 11:48an eight by uh
360. 11:50ten foot table
361. 11:52with big caps and shares because we use
362. 11:54it as a board room for meetings
363. 11:56john the media has has called you a
364. 11:58homosexual killer what is your position
365. 12:00on homosexuality i have nothing against
366. 12:03it
367. 12:03i'm i'm an outspoken liberal i
368. 12:07don't care for uh
369. 12:09the
370. 12:10labeling
371. 12:12i don't care for any labeling for that
372. 12:13fact
373. 12:14do you claim homosexuality no i would uh
374. 12:18definitely not be
375. 12:19homosexual
376. 12:21i have nothing against what they do and
377. 12:23i i don't deny that i've
378. 12:28engaged in sex with males but that i'm
379. 12:30bisexual they're bisexual right
380. 12:33i my preference is women
381. 12:35and i've been married enough times and
382. 12:37have children and
383. 12:39i see nothing wrong with it
384. 12:41my dad had conservative values if you're
385. 12:43out after midnight you're up to no good
386. 12:45my dad did not believe it if you're out
387. 12:47after dark and you didn't leave a phone
388. 12:48number you were up to no good so i think
389. 12:51that's why i tended to go that way more
390. 12:53just to be the opposite of him i was
391. 12:55married twice and just because i didn't
392. 12:57get along in the marriages my marriages
393. 13:00went down the drain only because i was a
394. 13:01workaholic
395. 13:03working uh seven days a week in there
396. 13:05there was 12 keys out to the house 12
397. 13:07sets of keys 12 sets of keys anybody
398. 13:10working for pdm contractors had a set of
399. 13:12keys
400. 13:13for the house
401. 13:14so you could come and go when you want
402. 13:16it and of course my neighbors would keep
403. 13:17me informed they would inform me god
404. 13:19while you were out of town
405. 13:22they must have been partying all night
406. 13:23there
407. 13:24who is rossi michael rossi was an
408. 13:26employer pdm
409. 13:28and and uh how old was he at the time
410. 13:29who was he he was 20 years old insofar
411. 13:32as being bisexual if i wanted to engage
412. 13:35in sex
413. 13:36rossi and cram were willing to go down
414. 13:37on me anytime i wanted to providing they
415. 13:40were given stuff now when the when the
416. 13:42search warrants were affected in your
417. 13:43case uh they did they did find an awful
418. 13:45lot in the crawl space of your home did
419. 13:47they not well yeah i had offered to sell
420. 13:49them the house because i i thought there
421. 13:51was nothing down in the crawl space yeah
422. 13:52i had never uh had any qualms about them
423. 13:55going down in the crawl space well how
424. 13:56many bodies
425. 13:57located on the property and where
426. 14:00to my understanding there was a total of
427. 14:0329 bodies or 28 bodies
428. 14:05were found on the property 26 27 of them
429. 14:09under the house and the rest
430. 14:11one was under the driveway one was on
431. 14:13the garage
432. 14:14so that makes a total of 29. okay
433. 14:16now uh from the standpoint of the arrest
434. 14:18when you were arrested in this in this
435. 14:20matter uh uh this is snowballed it's
436. 14:22it's snowball
437. 14:23okay what what was the date of that
438. 14:25arrest you call
439. 14:27uh december 22nd 1978 is when i was
440. 14:29arrested
441. 14:34the rope trick is not
442. 14:35the way i've described the rope trick is
443. 14:37it's nothing more than a tourniquet
444. 14:39and i had explained to two of them i
445. 14:41even demonstrated it to them we cut off
446. 14:43the air
447. 14:44so if you're gonna kill somebody you
448. 14:46would you just put it on their neck and
449. 14:47twist it three times or four times or
450. 14:49whatever until the person stopped moving
451. 14:52and you took them where
452. 14:54out on the i-55 bridge and that's where
453. 14:58how was he then taken from the car and
454. 15:01placed into the into the river
455. 15:03just opened up the trunk and not man
456. 15:06there was no there was no big special
457. 15:08deal out there i couldn't get down in
458. 15:10the crawl space eddie's and then i had
459. 15:11to bum back to begin with you got to
460. 15:13crawl on your belly to move around in
461. 15:14the crawl space
462. 15:16there was no way that i could have done
463. 15:17any of the digging down there
464. 15:20i had enough trouble just getting down
465. 15:21there gregory gregory grad sick
466. 15:26see number four
467. 15:30gregor godzik had came come to work for
468. 15:32me
469. 15:35in 19
470. 15:38according to this 1976
471. 15:40he came to us through taft high school
472. 15:42through a program he had worked for a
473. 15:44republican lumber company then he came
474. 15:45to work for us i'm not the monster image
475. 15:48that's been portrayed in me and the only
476. 15:50way you can make a monster images is to
477. 15:52make it look like i stalked the streets
478. 15:54and picked up altar boys off the street
479. 15:56you know they want to make them look
480. 15:57like innocent babes in the woods and i
481. 15:59was swatting them like flies
482. 16:01my encounters were always by happen
483. 16:02chance if you pull up a stop light and
484. 16:04there's somebody standing there waiting
485. 16:05for a bus if you give them a ride if do
486. 16:07you ask them whether
487. 16:09you know
488. 16:10do you get in anything or you want or
489. 16:12want
490. 16:13drugs or something like that
491. 16:14that's how it happened always a happen
492. 16:17chance encounter
493. 16:19a number of uh what three or four
494. 16:20psychiatrists psychologists interviewed
495. 16:22i had 13 of them there was six for the
496. 16:24defense and seven for the uh the state
497. 16:27yeah what was the position of the
498. 16:29defense psychiatrists what what did they
499. 16:30feel your problem was
500. 16:34what did they come up with from the
501. 16:35standpoint of uh
502. 16:36border uh what the hell is it god i
503. 16:39can't remember offhand
504. 16:41borderline personality
505. 16:43uh anti-social behavior i don't see how
506. 16:46anybody could be anti-social when when
507. 16:47you were involved with the public as
508. 16:49much as i was how about the the multiple
509. 16:51personality issue oh the multiple
510. 16:54personality in uh
511. 16:57came out of dr riefmann and hartman
512. 17:00these two clowns from the uh
513. 17:02from the uh cook county there they came
514. 17:05to see me the first time i said you want
515. 17:07to talk to john wayne gacy the
516. 17:09politician the clown
517. 17:11the family man or the businessman
518. 17:13the next day i see it in the newspaper
519. 17:15gacy has four personalities
520. 17:18i think one of the headlines said i was
521. 17:19a homosexual mass murderer confessed
522. 17:21mass murder there is no confession and
523. 17:24we offered
524. 17:26i offered as much as ten thousand
525. 17:28dollars if you can produce a confession
526. 17:29where i confess to a crime the time that
527. 17:32i was interrogated by the police
528. 17:33officers there was no stenographer there
529. 17:35was no tape recording there was no
530. 17:37videotaping
531. 17:39nothing was ever taken down yet
532. 17:41everywhere you'll see there's there's
533. 17:42five confessions by john wayne gacy
534. 17:45now if i confess to something then why
535. 17:47wasn't it videotaped why wasn't it
536. 17:49recorded why wasn't a stenographer
537. 17:51brought in had it written up and had me
538. 17:53sign it there is no confessions in this
539. 17:55case
540. 17:56what i did not know about this insanity
541. 17:58defense is that in the state of illinois
542. 18:00when you plead not guilty by reason of
543. 18:02insanity you're saying that you
544. 18:04committed the crime
545. 18:06but that you were insane at the time so
546. 18:09it's not a question of innocent or guilt
547. 18:11anymore what they're trying to do is
548. 18:13your whole trial now becomes an insanity
549. 18:16trial
550. 18:16where you're you're
551. 18:18to decide whether a person is sane or
552. 18:19insane john how about tim mccoy the last
553. 18:22one another five that you say you had
554. 18:23personal knowledge of tim mccoy even
555. 18:25though he's the last one he's the first
556. 18:26one he's the first one actually
557. 18:28right the first of the 33.
558. 18:31tim tim mccoy was was the first one
559. 18:34and
560. 18:37tim mccoy's name wasn't put on him until
561. 18:391988.
562. 18:40prior to that he was known as unknown
563. 18:43number nine
564. 18:44and he was buried by me in the crawl
565. 18:46space
566. 18:47that's the only knowledge that i have of
567. 18:49it what was the circumstances of that
568. 18:51he was killed in the house uh in
569. 18:54self-defense and who killed him then
570. 18:57i stabbed him yeah and it was a an issue
571. 18:59with self-defense why was was he in the
572. 19:01process of assaulting you or why he was
573. 19:03coming at me with a knife i just took
574. 19:05the knife away and twisted in his hand
575. 19:08and
576. 19:09that that's what killed him
577. 19:11so
578. 19:12at that point uh you you yourself did
579. 19:14bury him then in the crawl space right
580. 19:16and if you if you notice he's under
581. 19:18concrete did you bury any of the others
582. 19:20in the crawl space no i had nothing i
583. 19:22had no knowledge of it yeah well why is
584. 19:25it that yours your first one is there
585. 19:27and then you know 20 some
586. 19:29others are buried down there as well did
587. 19:31somebody know that you had done this
588. 19:32with the first one that giving them an
589. 19:34idea more than likely when drinking and
590. 19:36getting high with the others yeah
591. 19:38admitting it to them
592. 19:39so you feel others then followed your
593. 19:42suit in in uh using this as a burial
594. 19:44ground
595. 19:45without a doubt yeah
596. 19:48uh just to just want to highlight on uh
597. 19:52john zec you know they want they want to
598. 19:54make such an issue over john zick
599. 19:56and his disappearance i think he was
600. 19:57killed for his car personally
601. 19:59and your in your personal knowledge of
602. 20:01this of the zika uh case then is uh is
603. 20:04my personal knowledge of the zit cases
604. 20:06is that
605. 20:07i had come home
606. 20:09and zick and rossi were at the house i
607. 20:11had a few drinks i went to bed when i
608. 20:13woke up the next morning rossie was
609. 20:16sleeping on the couch and zick was dead
610. 20:17on the floor
611. 20:19i went about my own business and he was
612. 20:22gone
613. 20:23later on and where did he go where did
614. 20:25he end up i assumed he ended up in the
615. 20:26crawl space did you see him being
616. 20:28transported down there no wasn't present
617. 20:31didn't do the didn't do the transporting
618. 20:33but when he was dead he was dead on the
619. 20:35floor he was dead on the floor yes
620. 20:38did you have a conversation with anybody
621. 20:39about that
622. 20:40no
623. 20:41in other words
624. 20:43i just kept my mouth shut because i
625. 20:45didn't want to get involved
626. 20:46my idea was to just stay out of it
627. 20:49ken let's step back to your childhood
628. 20:51what was your state of health as a child
629. 20:54at the age of 10 i was told i had a
630. 20:56enlarged bottleneck heart
631. 20:58okay and so i
632. 21:00had a tendency to pass out a lot how
633. 21:02about childhood illnesses did you have i
634. 21:04mean uh accidents rather any any sort of
635. 21:06uh i was injuries or accidents when i
636. 21:08went to uh the other vocational school
637. 21:10when i first went to vocational school i
638. 21:12got hit with a park swing in the side of
639. 21:15the head cause the master right at what
640. 21:17what age was that
641. 21:20approximately
642. 21:2114 i believe got hit with a swing we got
643. 21:24unconscious yeah i was taking no medical
644. 21:26clinic
645. 21:27that was at the time that's when i
646. 21:28started seeing that i had epilepsy
647. 21:31did you have any uh episodes of uh you
648. 21:33know seizures yes seizures were
649. 21:36according to the doctor they claimed
650. 21:38that when i have an epileptic seizure i
651. 21:40had 800 times my own strength or 800
652. 21:43pounds of strength
653. 21:44[Music]
654. 21:46had you ever been sexually abused
655. 21:48by anybody
656. 21:49at the age of nine there was a
657. 21:51contractor
658. 21:53uh
659. 21:55building
660. 21:56building a house next door and he used
661. 21:57to pick me up and take me for rides
662. 22:00and always wanted to show me wrestling
663. 22:01holes with always pinning my head in
664. 22:03between his legs
665. 22:04but at the time i did not look at it as
666. 22:06sexual he was showing me wrestling holes
667. 22:08where my head was always constantly
668. 22:09pinned between his legs or under his
669. 22:11legs
670. 22:12i was 19 when i ran away and that was in
671. 22:16in 80
672. 22:17not 80.
673. 22:2061.
674. 22:22i went to las vegas for three months
675. 22:24took off took my car and left yeah i
676. 22:26worked for
677. 22:28palm mortuary
678. 22:30being the night man picking up bodies at
679. 22:32the hospitals and stuff for them i
680. 22:34worked as a night man only i did have
681. 22:36nothing to do with the bodies all this
682. 22:38talk that i slept with the dead ones or
683. 22:40or had sex with dead bodies that there
684. 22:42is no truth to any of that he did live
685. 22:44in the um
686. 22:45i lived in the mortuary yes but not in
687. 22:47the embalming room i mean they make it
688. 22:48sound like you know i slept in the crips
689. 22:50with them and i never climbed into a
690. 22:52coffin or anything like that that that
691. 22:54is so damn ridiculous
692. 22:56it you know it's the same thing the
693. 22:57contention is that i slept all night
694. 22:59with robert p if you want to say i slept
695. 23:01in the same house with a dead body okay
696. 23:03fine i'll buy that but in the same room
697. 23:05no
698. 23:06and besides the dead won't bother you
699. 23:09it's the living you got to worry about
700. 23:12i i felt things were going to work out
701. 23:14because i knew that i didn't do the
702. 23:15killing and i thought it would come out
703. 23:17in the trial but amaranthi with with
704. 23:19this insanity defense what i and again
705. 23:22you can call it my ignorance of the law
706. 23:23it's like i explained in a letter to
707. 23:25chief justice william clark
708. 23:28the evidence based
709. 23:30is on the theory that
710. 23:32the more sensational the case is the
711. 23:34more crazier it sound the insanity
712. 23:36defense would work and i still think it
713. 23:38was stupid
714. 23:39i i think that they did a disservice to
715. 23:42me and they did a disservice to the
716. 23:43victims and you know what people don't
717. 23:45understand uh is i i feel i was
718. 23:47wrongfully convicted for 33 murders and
719. 23:50it was only because of sensationalism
720. 23:52and ego the des plaines police did a
721. 23:54sloppy investigation
722. 23:56this is i mean it may not be the the
723. 23:58correct way of wording it but the thing
724. 24:00of it is is that
725. 24:02they had other suspects and they
726. 24:04they
727. 24:05had tunnel vision then to say let's it's
728. 24:07casey's house it's easier to put
729. 24:08everything on gacy yeah your paintings
730. 24:10uh
731. 24:11have improved over the years i think
732. 24:13we've seen some uh i think i've learned
733. 24:15from each one of them i guess the same
734. 24:16reason why i relate to michelangelo
735. 24:18because he was workaholic and leonardo
736. 24:20da vinci you know people always ask me
737. 24:22who my favorite artists are and why and
738. 24:25i did not know that michelangelo was
739. 24:27homosexual it doesn't make no difference
740. 24:29to me he was a workaholic
741. 24:31he was a sculpture he was a he was a
742. 24:34painter and
743. 24:36did a lot of other things
744. 24:38da vinci was an inventor in that and of
745. 24:41course in my life i've done painting
746. 24:43decorating wallpapering i've done mural
747. 24:46work
748. 24:47you name it
749. 24:48as you know i'm a bug about record
750. 24:50keeping
751. 24:51all of my business records confirmed
752. 24:53where i was who i was with what hotel i
753. 24:55stayed at what what meals i ate
754. 24:57everything was in the files
755. 24:59and all of those files on december 29th
756. 25:02of 1978
757. 25:04were confiscated by the des plaines
758. 25:05police department
759. 25:07and those files there alone
760. 25:09could have proven that i wasn't in
761. 25:11illinois when 116 of these murders when
762. 25:13they finally set the dates as to when
763. 25:14these murders occurred you did say that
764. 25:16you never painted yourself as the
765. 25:18innocent
766. 25:19uh babe in the woods that you were going
767. 25:21over the same thing you're not going to
768. 25:22go into basically no but i mean the
769. 25:24point is if if you feel that
770. 25:26uh you're not covering up your part of
771. 25:29the the crimes but at the same time you
772. 25:31open up the thought that others were
773. 25:32involved would you be willing to
774. 25:34cooperate with law enforcement people
775. 25:36today to
776. 25:37avail say the uh the materials that you
777. 25:39have amassed and to more or less pursue
778. 25:43uh if in fact there are others that are
779. 25:45on the streets that have been involved
780. 25:46in these murders would you be willing to
781. 25:48cooperate and to assist
782. 25:50to uh to pursue that to the ends of
783. 25:53bringing others to justice would you be
784. 25:54willing to do that
785. 25:55i've got no problems about that but what
786. 25:57i don't understand is why wasn't it done
787. 25:59to begin with bob
788. 26:01the thing of it is they want you to
789. 26:03believe that
790. 26:05i and i alone committed these these
791. 26:07murders
792. 26:09and and i had nothing to do with the
793. 26:10murders of anyone if anybody was
794. 26:12involved then how many people are we
795. 26:14talking about beside yourself we believe
796. 26:16there was four people involved
797. 26:18and that would be uh michael rossi david
798. 26:21cram
799. 26:22philip paske here we we've got a philip
800. 26:25paske who
801. 26:28had a newsletter going out of the cook
802. 26:30county jail
803. 26:32and here he is involved with a guy named
804. 26:34john norman
805. 26:36and john norman was
806. 26:37running uh
807. 26:38boys for hire
808. 26:40they were making snuff films with young
809. 26:42boys
810. 26:42[Music]
811. 26:43to me they were pimping them off they
812. 26:45were selling them
813. 26:47there was a crossover when we checked
814. 26:49into john norman's background that he he
815. 26:52goes all the way back to
816. 26:54the early early 70s involved in
817. 26:57he ran the norman foundation he run run
818. 27:00epic international
819. 27:02and the odyssey foundation out of dallas
820. 27:04texas
821. 27:05and these were organizations where
822. 27:08wealthy men could hire young boys for
823. 27:11sexual for sexual weekends
824. 27:14male prostitutes have you ever met
825. 27:15norman you ever had any contact with
826. 27:17norman
827. 27:18i have yet to see a current picture of
828. 27:21him and and therefore i had to say no
829. 27:25i you know phil paske may have been with
830. 27:28him at one time or another because see
831. 27:29again i came home from out of town at
832. 27:31times and phil paske would be at the
833. 27:33house drinking beer or something like
834. 27:34that
835. 27:35uh
836. 27:37david cram is the one that brought
837. 27:40phil paske and kisses uh crayon when he
838. 27:42wanted he didn't want to do nothing he
839. 27:44got a hold of this guy and said well
840. 27:45this guy can get you
841. 27:47somebody for sex i i have a lot of
842. 27:50things that i've forgotten that i can't
843. 27:51remember for instance i can go back to
844. 27:54my childhood and stuff and i still
845. 27:55remember that but yet you can i can go
846. 27:57into the 70s
847. 27:58and there are a lot of things i can't
848. 28:00remember the same thing with the victims
849. 28:02i've looked at all of i don't know if
850. 28:04you notice here we got pictures of every
851. 28:05one of the victims here and believe it
852. 28:07or not for the last 12 years i've
853. 28:09studied these photos of these victims
854. 28:12and
855. 28:12there is no uh
856. 28:15we we have a shot of all of the victims
857. 28:17together here
858. 28:19and
859. 28:20when you look over the photos i have no
860. 28:22recollection of any of them never met
861. 28:24them
862. 28:25and we've gone over this more than once
863. 28:27they're just names and faces
864. 28:29and when you when you look at them
865. 28:34the thing of it is we took it a step
866. 28:35further we went into their backgrounds i
867. 28:37wanted to know where they were at what
868. 28:39schools they attended who they hung out
869. 28:42with
870. 28:43and what kind of activities they were in
871. 28:45to and that's what we dug up on each one
872. 28:47of the victims but still there is no
873. 28:49association
874. 28:51none of them never worked for me none of
875. 28:52them
876. 28:54they never went to any places that i
877. 28:56ever hung around because i didn't hang
878. 28:57around that many places unless you're
879. 28:58involved in politics
880. 29:00or you if you were involved in clowning
881. 29:02then i might have ran into you but
882. 29:04there's no way i could have run into any
883. 29:05of them they've got all that jury that
884. 29:07doesn't belong to the victims they've
885. 29:09got the two clown suits that don't
886. 29:11belong to the victim just like i
887. 29:12consider myself the 34th victim
888. 29:15i consider the families victims as well
889. 29:18because they did not get
890. 29:20justice
891. 29:21from the shoddy investigation all the
892. 29:23way down through
893. 29:28as i told you when the fbi first came in
894. 29:30to check out on me
895. 29:32you said that you were kept out of the
896. 29:34case back in 78 and that was only
897. 29:36because of egos they did not want a
898. 29:39professional coming in and doing an
899. 29:41investigation so they did their sloppy
900. 29:43investigation let it slide that way you
901. 29:45see everybody was so excited about the
902. 29:47large massive case and everybody was
903. 29:49looking with their egos as to how they
904. 29:51could close this thing up and you know
905. 29:53the only one that they really hurt
906. 29:55you've had the the victim's family bent
907. 29:57all their hostility towards me and they
908. 29:59think i i'm the monster that killed
909. 30:00their son or took out their son and
910. 30:02stuff like that
911. 30:03when in fact most of them don't even
912. 30:05have the remains of their own sons
913. 30:08you know that's another thing everybody
914. 30:09misses from this
915. 30:11is that the victims
916. 30:13families are are not aware
917. 30:17that that in a lot of the cases they
918. 30:19don't even have the remains
919. 30:22of their own their own sons
920. 30:24because the dr stein never turned over
921. 30:26the whole body
922. 30:27and they took the uh
923. 30:30they took the heads off of each one of
924. 30:31the victims so when you you turn over
925. 30:33the remains to love loved one's family
926. 30:36they don't have the whole body
927. 30:39what do you actually feel that my
928. 30:42investigation that my case has been
929. 30:43thoroughly investigated
930. 30:45i think john in a case like this and i
931. 30:47find this in many many major cases that
932. 30:49the uh
933. 30:50things are at the time of the case are
934. 30:52done uh uh rather hastily because of the
935. 30:55fact that uh you know there's pressure
936. 30:57on it but that's a political answer i
937. 30:58know i don't i don't want a political
938. 31:00answer from you i want i want a basic
939. 31:02answer do you actually think that the
940. 31:04investigation in my case has been done
941. 31:06right i believe in your case that uh
942. 31:08that there's needs to be there should
943. 31:10have been more uh more focus on on
944. 31:12others as it should have been others
945. 31:14checked out a little more thoroughly
946. 31:15that's that's the belief i've developed
947. 31:17over these years
948. 31:19yeah i just think that we're kind of
949. 31:21wrapping it up here we uh i think we
950. 31:24accomplished something today certainly
951. 31:25we put something down on tape that has
952. 31:27not been said
953. 31:29my feeling as a career law enforcement
954. 31:30officer is that
955. 31:33if john wayne gacy is guilty then he
956. 31:35should be punished if john
957. 31:37when gacy has others involved then they
958. 31:39should be brought in they should be
959. 31:40punished
960. 31:41basically i believe in total
961. 31:43investigation and total justice and
962. 31:45that's that's really what i've been
963. 31:46looking for all
964. 31:48[Music]