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John Tye, attorney of Facebook whistleblower Frances Haugen (Full Stream 10/6) — Transcript

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0:03[Music]
0:21members of congress and the securities
0:23and exchange commission are approaching
0:24these
0:26[Music]
0:28issues because i believe
0:31[Music]
0:44the internal research that that francis
0:47uh has provided to to to the government
0:50shows first of all that instagram is
0:52distinctly worse than other social media
0:54apps like pinterest uh or some of the
0:57others
0:58in terms of teen mental health and that
1:01facebook knows for a substantial
1:03percentage of the users
1:06their products generate essentially
1:08addictive behavior they can't stop
1:12[Music]
1:18welcome to washington post live i'm kat
1:21zakrewsky a tech policy reporter here at
1:23the post and i'm joined today by john
1:26tai
1:28a former u.s government whistleblower
1:30and founder of whistleblower aid mr tai
1:33is representing facebook whistleblower
1:35francis halgen
1:37who's
1:38whose congressional testimony and
1:40bombshell interview on 60 minutes has
1:42brought global attention to facebook and
1:45its app instagram
1:47john thank you for being here today
1:49thank you so much kat great to be here
1:52and i want to dive right in at the
1:54beginning can you tell us how you first
1:57connected with francis halgen
2:00yes uh a mutual
2:03friend colleague
2:05um
2:07suggested that she give us a call and
2:09she did and i spoke to her
2:13actually using the signal app the
2:15signaling cryptic communications app
2:18and when you first connected with her on
2:20signal did you realize how broad the
2:24implications would be of the information
2:26she had from facebook
2:30within a few minutes yes
2:32it's obviously pretty substantial
2:35and there's been a lot of elements that
2:37haven't even been reported yet so uh
2:40there's more to come
2:42and we've seen many other former
2:45facebook employees come out and
2:47criticize the company over the years
2:49we've seen concerns for years from
2:50lawmakers that facebook is putting
2:53profits over the safety of its users
2:55what what's different now what's changed
2:58after yesterday's testimony
3:01well
3:02a few things
3:03first of all francis has been so
3:06thoughtful uh and systematic about this
3:09um
3:11she had a job
3:13that allowed her to see some very
3:15important
3:16pieces of this story including how the
3:19core algorithms work msi meaningful
3:21social interaction
3:23how foreign intelligence agencies and
3:25others are weaponizing the platforms um
3:28those were squarely within her job
3:30responsibilities some of the other
3:32issues that that came up in the hearing
3:33yesterday
3:35she learned about really through the
3:36documents that she collected from the
3:38internal system
3:40um
3:40and so she clearly collected a lot of
3:43those she's very smart so she was able
3:45to
3:47essentially articulate
3:49what these documents mean and interpret
3:51them
3:51so the areas where she didn't personally
3:53work on um
3:55she's basing you know her views on
3:59her pretty systematic research
4:01which uh
4:03you know and the internal facebook
4:05documents
4:06and that stuff has been shared with the
4:08sec the u.s securities and exchange
4:10commission uh and with congress and
4:12those are lawful options
4:14to make disclosures to
4:18u.s government investigators leaders um
4:22so
4:22that
4:23her her
4:25essentially running
4:27some important programs uh including
4:29civic integrity
4:30um
4:31and her ability to to lawfully access
4:34and share these documents with the sec
4:36and congress are are will be what makes
4:38the difference uh in this case
4:42and i want to ask you about that point
4:43of law fully access because yesterday we
4:47saw facebook executive monica bicker in
4:50tv interviews refer to these documents
4:52as quote stolen are you concerned about
4:55legal retaliation from facebook on your
4:58client
5:00well
5:01she's a lawful whistleblower she she
5:03shared these documents through the
5:05lawful process with the security
5:06exchange commission that's protected by
5:08federal law it's also protected by
5:11uh the confidentiality agreement that
5:13that francis signed with facebook
5:15um
5:17it explicitly calls out the sec and
5:19congress and state attorneys general so
5:21so she's done everything lawfully um the
5:24comments you're talking about from
5:25yesterday i think are sort of a
5:27desperate pr attempt by the company to
5:30try to throw some mud at my clients um i
5:33don't think anyone's buying it um so
5:36you know i would say we are concerned i
5:38mean they are a trillion dollar company
5:40uh she has a gofundme uh right so
5:43there's clearly a david goliath um power
5:47imbalance here
5:48um and if that's the best they can do is
5:51sort of throw up some
5:53essentially frivolous allegations that
5:55something was stolen um
5:57you know then they don't have very much
5:59to go on um i i will say though that
6:02even a frivolous lawsuit against my
6:03client
6:05could could bankrupt her
6:07uh it wouldn't be hard for for facebook
6:10to make her life very very difficult
6:12so we're obviously hoping that facebook
6:14chooses not to do that
6:16and so just to be clear
6:18do you disagree with that
6:20characterization that these documents
6:22were quote stolen oh
6:24of course of course yes we definitely
6:26disagree with that this is an entirely
6:28lawful whistleblower disclosure
6:32and you mentioned that these documents
6:34have been shared with the sec
6:36um and i wanted to ask you senator
6:38richard blumenthal who chaired
6:40yesterday's hearing he called for the
6:42sec to look into these documents and he
6:44also said the federal trade commission
6:46which has traditionally
6:49overseen the tech industry should be
6:51looking into the revelations from
6:53francis as well have you shared any of
6:55these documents with the federal trade
6:57commission
7:00so my apologies there um
7:05uh
7:08the answer is
7:10we have been in touch with the ftc but
7:12if not
7:14i'm sorry if
7:17i apologize for the disruptions here i
7:20didn't realize these notifications would
7:21affect
7:22um
7:24the
7:28ftc all right uh
7:30we've been in touch with the ftc we have
7:32not shared any documents with the fcc
7:34it's possible that others have because
7:37at this point they've been in the hands
7:39of the sec and multiple offices uh on
7:41capitol hill for a while um
7:44so
7:45any of them could have shared things
7:47with the ftc and uh
7:50specifically there's a statute that
7:51permits the sec to share things with the
7:54the uh the ftc
7:56but francis has not been primarily
7:58concerned with antitrust
8:00um matters the ftc
8:03does antitrust but it also does consumer
8:05protection things um and i think that we
8:08would certainly be interested in
8:09empowering the ftc
8:11uh on
8:12consumer protection
8:14matters
8:16and how about abroad we've seen
8:18regulators for instance in europe in
8:20some ways be far more aggressive than
8:22the us in regulating tech companies has
8:24she shared these documents with any
8:26european regulators
8:29uh
8:30yes
8:31we've been in touch with members of
8:33european parliament
8:35french and
8:36french government officials
8:38a member of the british parliament
8:40she'll be testifying
8:42to the british parliament later this
8:44month
8:45um
8:46on your wider european trip and so yes
8:49there's a lot of interest in europe and
8:50we're hopeful that
8:52europe will be able to
8:54um
8:56to to respond effectively
8:59and so
9:00given the fact that these documents are
9:02being dispersed around the world to
9:04policymakers do you ever foresee in the
9:06future making them all publicly
9:09available so everyday users journalists
9:11researchers could access them too
9:16well
9:17uh i don't
9:19i don't know the answer to that question
9:21um i i would say in the coming weeks we
9:23we might learn more about that
9:28got it what would we uh what would
9:30happen in the coming weeks that that
9:32might teach us more about that well
9:34you know i i don't think that we're
9:36going to be sharing that but again um
9:39enough people have these documents that
9:42it's possible that they could be sharing
9:44them we're not in control of all these
9:46people so
9:47i i just don't know what will happen
9:49exactly
9:52legislators of you know legislators in
9:54the european parliament members of
9:56congress
9:58we we're not you know in control of who
10:00they're sharing what with so
10:04that makes sense and can you tell us
10:05anything more about what the response
10:08has been we've obviously heard from
10:10lawmakers and seen how galvanized they
10:12are from these findings at yesterday's
10:14hearing but
10:16what have you heard from the sec in
10:18response to the eight complaints you've
10:19made there
10:22uh
10:25first let me say um there have been
10:28eight complaints that have been reported
10:30but i'm not saying whether there might
10:32be more or more
10:34than that
10:35but
10:36the
10:39uh
10:40sorry
10:41we have been in touch with the sec
10:43um
10:44with multiple staff there uh but i will
10:49sort of leave it to them to explain what
10:52if anything they're planning to do
10:54in this case
10:56got it and given the multiple paths
10:58you're taking here would you expect to
11:01see more decisive action in the eu than
11:04in the us
11:08i don't know um
11:11you know the politics in europe are
11:12different and
11:15there's some things that the united
11:16states is very good at there's some
11:18things that
11:19european legislators might have an
11:20easier time doing
11:22um there's so many issues at play so
11:24many proposals on the table so many
11:26different um
11:29you know actions by facebook that are
11:31being examined that it's sort of hard to
11:33predict where this might go
11:37i think that's a really interesting
11:38point that you make about how there's so
11:40many different actions by facebook that
11:42are being considered right now
11:44um in your mind after watching
11:46yesterday's hearing what what should be
11:49the first step that u.s lawmakers
11:51prioritize as they grapple with these
11:53revelations
12:01well francis supports regulation of
12:04facebook and all social media
12:06specifically on the point of engagement
12:08based
12:09ranking of content
12:11because
12:15these are pretty sophisticated
12:17algorithms
12:19and a lot of effort has gone into
12:21delivering to facebook users the content
12:24they're most likely to respond to
12:28and that sounds okay in practice
12:32it sounds okay in theory but in practice
12:34what happens
12:35is that
12:36the things you're most likely to respond
12:38to all of us are angry content
12:41um potentially conspiracy minded content
12:44other things like that and so there are
12:47some concerns about the core principles
12:49underlying facebook's algorithms
12:53so for instance one of the proposals
12:55francis has been discussing is
13:00section 230 of the communications
13:02decency act essentially insulates
13:04facebook uh from liability for content
13:07that that its users put on the platform
13:10um but if facebook
13:12and i i i'm not sure that anyone is
13:14prepared to sort of totally eliminate
13:16that um because there's reasons why we
13:18have that
13:20it allows
13:23the internet to exist in its current
13:24form and a whole lot of
13:26free debate
13:28but
13:30if facebook is not uh
13:33not just allowing this pla content on
13:36the platform but amplifying it so
13:38amplifying white nationalist messages q
13:40and on messages stop the steel you know
13:43uh election misinformation covered
13:45misinformation if it's amplifying
13:48um
13:49body dysmorphia groups and other things
13:52and encouraging its users to to join
13:54conspiracy groups
13:56uh
13:57and for instance pro-anorexia groups
14:01why shouldn't facebook be liable for
14:03those recommendations um
14:06because
14:07it's pretty it's pretty shocking you can
14:09go on there right now and just
14:12you know join a few groups that support
14:15donald trump and the republican party
14:16very mainstream groups and within a week
14:18if you just follow facebook's own
14:20recommendations you'll be down these
14:22conspiracy theory q anon rabbit holes
14:24and same same with uh anorexia content
14:27and same with covet content
14:30facebook is actively promoting
14:32content it knows and groups that it
14:34knows are harmful and false and it's not
14:36willing to to stop that because
14:40they're trying to maximize engagement
14:44and on that point about section 230
14:46lawmakers from both parties have been
14:48interested in reforming that liability
14:50shield for several years but they've
14:53traditionally had very different motives
14:54for that did francis find that lawmakers
14:58from both parties seemed open to this
15:00proposal yesterday
15:02absolutely
15:04one of the things we're encouraged by
15:07is the bipartisan nature of this
15:11francis doesn't see this as
15:13one party or the other this is something
15:15affecting the american people as a whole
15:17and in fact the global community as a
15:19whole
15:20uh and so there's no reason this should
15:23become a partisan issue
15:25obviously both the chair and the ranking
15:27member were very vocal yesterday
15:30another idea there's a lot of bipartisan
15:32energy around on capitol hill is greater
15:35anti-trust action against the tech
15:37companies potentially breaking them up
15:39um francis talked a little bit yesterday
15:42about how she thought breaking up
15:43facebook could actually exacerbate some
15:46of those problems can you tell a little
15:48bit
15:49tell us a little bit more about that and
15:51how you think that should impact the
15:53regulatory debate on capitol hill
15:57francis has been clear that she doesn't
15:59see breaking up facebook as the solution
16:02she sees regulation as the solution
16:04um
16:06you know i would point you to her
16:07comments on on her views and obviously
16:10there's a range of views i mean there's
16:11plenty of people who do think these
16:13things should be broken up um
16:15but that's not my client's view
16:19and i wanted to ask you as well about
16:23facebook's response to
16:25francis's allegations
16:27we didn't hear anything from facebook
16:30ceo mark zuckerberg for weeks as the
16:32wall street journal stories were coming
16:33out and then last night for the first
16:35time he shared an internal company email
16:39that he sent to employees um where he
16:41pushed back and frankly struck a defiant
16:44tone about the revelations he said that
16:47it's just not true that facebook places
16:50profit over the safety and well-being of
16:52its users
16:54what's your response to his email
16:57well i think it's good that mark
16:59zuckerberg is getting personally
17:00involved i don't think it's a surprise
17:02he's waited this long because there
17:04aren't a lot of good things he can be
17:05saying right now um
17:08uh you know his his best argument that
17:11he made
17:12in his statement is um
17:16don't trust our
17:19many thousands of pages of internal
17:21research uh trust me when i tell you to
17:24ignore that research um
17:26i don't think a lot of people are gonna
17:27buy it but it's probably the best option
17:29he has now
17:32for
17:32for trying to contain this thing
17:36lawmakers are saying that he needs to
17:38come to capitol hill to answer for these
17:41revelations do you agree
17:46absolutely
17:47um
17:48why shouldn't he be answering questions
17:50about what his own researchers have
17:51found about facebook one of the
17:54one of the interesting things about this
17:58whole well these disclosures it turns
18:02out that facebook not only understands
18:04the problems
18:05on its platform better than anyone else
18:07but in fact understands the solutions
18:09better than anyone else
18:11um
18:11as you go through these documents they
18:14propose many solutions to these problems
18:17that would reduce the flow of
18:19disinformation conspiracy theories
18:21hateful violent inciting content
18:24that didn't even require deleting
18:26content a lot of them i mean certainly
18:29some content needs to be deleted and
18:30there needs to be more investment there
18:32but a lot of these algorithmic changes
18:35are very simple it's things like
18:37requiring someone to click on a link
18:39before they share it because people tend
18:40to share misinformation links without
18:42even clicking on them
18:43um limiting the number of reshares to
18:46two or three hops instead of permitting
18:47unlimited reshares because the deep
18:50reshares
18:53turn out to contain the vast majority of
18:56misinformation
18:57um
18:58like simply just requiring someone to
19:00copy paste
19:01something uh rather than click a
19:04one-click reshare
19:06a change as simple as that can have
19:08really uh intense helpful uh impacts on
19:12misinformation
19:14and zuckerberg personally declined to
19:16implement those changes because it would
19:18have a fraction of one percent impact on
19:21virality and growth on the platform so
19:23he's clearly putting
19:25um you know virality growth and profits
19:27ahead of stopping
19:29um misinformation and conspiracy
19:32theories on the platform
19:34yeah i thought that was one of the most
19:35powerful moments in yesterday's hearing
19:38when francis talked about how the buck
19:40stops with mark zuckerberg and because
19:42of the way the company's shares are
19:44structured he has final say on so many
19:48of these decisions
19:49do you think he should be able to remain
19:51as ceo of facebook
19:57uh i i don't have a view on that
19:59particular question um
20:02it is remarkable that he he
20:05um 55 of the voting shares even though
20:08he has far
20:10uh
20:11fewer
20:12shares in the actual company
20:14because they built a a special ownership
20:18share structure
20:19for zuckerberg to to retain um his his
20:23essentially complete control over the
20:25company
20:26um
20:28i do think
20:29that that share structure should be
20:31reformed move to a one share one vote
20:34structure and i think you would see some
20:36governance changes very fast at facebook
20:41is that something that sec could play a
20:43role in doing given the information
20:45you've shared with them
20:50well this is pretty speculative
20:53typically
20:55the existing
20:57owners would be the ones to vote on
20:59changes to the share structure
21:02i suppose it's theoretically possible
21:04and i'm
21:05let me flag this by saying i'm
21:07speculating at this point it's
21:08theoretically possible that the sec or
21:10another agency
21:12could
21:13could suggest a reform of the share
21:17structure as part of an enforcement
21:19action um as a settlement to some kind
21:22of enforcement action
21:23um
21:24but i would say you should talk to the
21:27sec and other law enforcement about that
21:29kind of thing
21:31i see and one other point i wanted to
21:33touch on is senator blumenthal yesterday
21:36spoke about how francis's testimony
21:39would likely inspire other
21:41whistleblowers to come forward i know
21:43it's just been a couple days since the
21:4560 minutes interview but have you heard
21:48from other tech workers
21:50at whistleblower aid
21:52uh
21:53yes i can say that we've gotten a surge
21:56of inquiries uh since sunday night
22:00um you know i'm not going to comment on
22:01that
22:02but
22:03uh
22:05and and a lot of increase doesn't
22:07translate into a lot of cases or
22:09disclosures necessarily every case is
22:12you know individual but for sure we've
22:15gotten lots of inquiries
22:18and
22:19talking about how you've had a lot of
22:21inquiries and just given your experience
22:24being a whistleblower yourself
22:26what advice do you have for other
22:28employees who might feel like they're in
22:30a similar position to francis and have
22:32concerns about their companies
22:35that's a good question so the first
22:37thing is do not talk to your boss or
22:39anyone at your company about your
22:41concerns because
22:42um you can face retaliation even if
22:45you're trying to do the right thing even
22:46if you're trying to help the company
22:48talk to a lawyer that you trust you can
22:50read about us on our website um but
22:53there's you know there are some other
22:55good law firms out there
22:56um
22:58so that's number one talk to a lawyer
22:59you trust and those communications can
23:02and should be protected by
23:04attorney-client privilege
23:06uh
23:07that's the number one number two i would
23:09say
23:10secure the evidence
23:12lawfully um
23:14if you work at a government agency with
23:16classified information you can't just
23:18start taking classified information home
23:19with you if you work at a company
23:22you may have signed ndas confidentiality
23:25agreements there may be special laws
23:27you shouldn't
23:28do not hack into any database do not try
23:31to crack any passwords do not try to
23:32gain unauthorized access to any
23:35computer system or file cabinet or
23:38anything like that
23:39lawfully secure the evidence
23:42uh and share it with your attorney those
23:44are the really the first two steps but
23:47beyond that uh every case is different
23:50so
23:52one of the most astonishing things i
23:54think in these revelations is how
23:57broad francis's access was to so much
24:00research across facebook do you think
24:03that this
24:05these revelations this moment will cause
24:09tech companies to become more locked
24:11down more secretive about the research
24:13they're doing
24:17uh probably yes yeah
24:19i mean one of the remarkable things is
24:21that over 50 000
24:23facebook employees had access to all
24:25this research and she was the first
24:27person to identify
24:29uh that this this was worthy of lawful
24:32disclosures
24:34i would definitely expect
24:38limiting access to existing materials i
24:41hope that facebook is not engaging in
24:43mass deletions of evidence right now
24:47but you know certainly
24:50every reason to think that
24:51every tech company will be looking hard
24:53at
24:54who has access to what
25:00and i wanted to ask you to i mean
25:04just given that advice that you just
25:06gave did francis ever raise her concerns
25:08internally within facebook before she
25:11took the step of contacting a lawyer
25:14that's a good question
25:16yeah uh
25:17on on some issues yes um
25:19issues related to her particular work
25:21streams
25:22the understaffing and under resourcing
25:25of civic integrity and other things for
25:27sure she raised those internally through
25:29her chain of command
25:32obviously
25:33the scope of the disclosure she brought
25:36forward lawfully to the sec uh you know
25:39go beyond that
25:40and so not every issue that's that's
25:43been reported or that will will be
25:45reported that the the sec is looking at
25:48did she raise internally but but some of
25:50them for sure
25:52and much of the attention on capitol
25:55hill has been on instagram and the
25:57impact that the product has on kids and
26:00teens but as you've mentioned several
26:02times
26:03her revelations are so wide-ranging and
26:05touch on so many aspects of facebook's
26:08business um what revelation do you think
26:11hasn't gotten enough enough attention
26:13yet that the public should be looking at
26:16more carefully
26:21the capital insurrection on january 6th
26:23deserves more attention
26:26so things that we know we know that
26:29seven months before the the november
26:32election um facebook staff made
26:34recommendations to senior executives
26:36including zuckerberg himself
26:39with
26:39with
26:40contra neutral uh proposals for reducing
26:43the flow of conspiracy theories and
26:44misinformation
26:46um
26:47zuckerberg personally
26:49declined to implement those because they
26:52might have
26:53an impact on
26:55msi meaningful social engagement even
26:57even an impact under one percent
27:00you know he said
27:01was was too much
27:03so so some obvious tools for reducing
27:06the flow of misinformation conspiracy
27:08theories were vetoed by the senior
27:10leadership um obviously in the wake of
27:12the election for a couple months there
27:14was intense stop the steel efforts which
27:17was the bogus effort to overturn the the
27:19results of the election based on
27:20misinformation about um
27:23supposed you know ballot uh fraud and
27:26other things um
27:28all of which
27:29culminated in the january 6 insurrection
27:32but we know that within days of the
27:34election itself facebook had disbanded
27:36the civic integrity team um
27:39which
27:40just that fact right there uh clearly
27:42there were problems with civic integrity
27:44integrity um there was a massive effort
27:47underway to delegitimize the election uh
27:49but instead of maintaining
27:52the few
27:53restraints they had in place on that
27:55stuff they disbanded the team and that
27:58stuff was allowed to fester uh
28:00and there are um
28:02you know uh
28:04a lot of evidence even real time on the
28:07day january 6 showing
28:09that facebook knew exactly what was
28:10happening um and and wasn't wasn't
28:13acting and and there were people inside
28:15the company being like why are we
28:16allowing this to happen in real time
28:18um
28:19so that's clearly one but but it goes
28:22so so broad i mean um
28:25ethnic violence in countries like
28:27ethiopia and bangladesh and myanmar
28:31uh misrepresentations to advertisers and
28:33investors about how many people were
28:36seeing the ads that their you know the
28:38advertisers are paying for
28:40um so many issues that haven't even been
28:42covered yet
28:44and i wanted to ask you about the
28:45january 6 revelations we saw
28:48representative adam schiff who is a
28:51member of the select committee in
28:53congress investigating the events of
28:54that day say that his committee will
28:57need to hear from francis about her
28:59findings about facebook's role
29:01does she plan to testify in front of
29:03that committee
29:05we certainly want to provide
29:07every committee of jurisdiction on
29:09congress with all the information they
29:10need to do their jobs
29:12the details of that remain to be worked
29:14out um
29:17but but i've already been in touch with
29:19one member of the january 6 committee
29:21personally
29:22and
29:23you know we expect that to proceed
29:26unfortunately we're running out of time
29:28and we'll have to leave it there thanks
29:30so much for joining us john i'm cats
29:32acres the last the last the last the
29:35last thing i'd like to say is she is
29:36relying on a gofundme to help with her
29:38legal defense and we encourage uh
29:41viewers out there to please go and if if
29:43you're able uh contribute something um
29:46to help us help francis
29:49thank you so much for joining us john
29:51i'm kat zakrewsky and this has been
29:53washington post live as always go to
29:55washington
29:57head to
29:58washingtonpostlive.com to register and
30:00find out more about all of our upcoming
30:02events thank you

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