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John Lennox Delivers One of the Greatest Comebacks in Debate History — Transcript

by Pastor Daniel | Truth Unleashed · 2,276 words · 398 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

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0:00Richard Dawkins is widely regarded as
0:02one of the world's [music] most
0:03influential atheists. For decades, he
0:05has argued that science has made belief
0:07in God unnecessary [music] and that
0:09faith is little more than belief without
0:11evidence. So, when he sat down with
0:13mathematician and Christian [music]
0:15philosopher Dr. John Lennox, many
0:17expected another strong defense of
0:19atheism. But, something unexpected
0:21happens. As a discussion unfolds, Lennox
0:24challenges Dawkins on science, faith,
0:26and the origin of the universe. Then, in
0:28one of the most remarkable moments of
0:30the conversation, Lennox asks a simple
0:32question that leaves Dawkins speechless.
0:35Along the way, I'll share my thoughts,
0:37and then at the end, I'll give my
0:38biggest takeaway from the discussion.
0:40Let's watch the video together now.
0:42>> I think that
0:44when you consider
0:47the beauty of the world
0:49and you wonder how it came to be what it
0:52is,
0:53you are naturally overwhelmed with a
0:55feeling of awe, a feeling of admiration,
1:00and you almost feel a desire to worship
1:03something. I feel this.
1:05Uh I recognize that other scientists,
1:07such as Carl Sagan, feel this. Einstein
1:11felt it.
1:12We all of us share a kind of religious
1:16reverence
1:18for the beauties of the universe, for
1:21the complexity of life, for the
1:25uh uh
1:26sheer magnitude of the cosmos, the sheer
1:29magnitude of geological time.
1:33And it's tempting to translate that
1:36feeling of awe and worship into a desire
1:40to worship some particular thing, a a
1:42person, an an agent. You want to
1:45attribute it to a maker, to a creator.
1:52What science has now achieved
1:54is an emancipation
1:56from that impulse to attribute these
2:01things to a creator. And it's a major
2:03emancipation.
2:05Because
2:07humans have an almost overwhelming
2:09desire to to think that they've
2:11explained something
2:13by
2:15attributing it to a maker. We're so used
2:19to
2:21explaining things in our own world, like
2:24these television cameras, like the
2:25lights, like everything that we make,
2:27the clothes we wear, the chairs we sit
2:29on. Everything we see around us is a
2:31manufactured object. And so it's so
2:34tempting
2:35to believe that that has been made that
2:38that that living that living things or
2:40that the stars or mountains or or or
2:42rivers have all been made by something.
2:46It was a supreme achievement of the
2:48human intellect to realize that there is
2:51a better explanation for these things.
2:54That these things can come about by
2:56purely natural
2:59causes.
3:01When science began,
3:04the
3:06the aim to achieve it was there, but we
3:08didn't know enough. Nowadays, at the end
3:11of the 20th century, beginning of the
3:1221st century, we still don't know
3:14everything.
3:16But we've achieved an enormous amount in
3:19the way of understanding. We now
3:21understand essentially how life came
3:24into being. We know
3:27that
3:28uh we are all
3:29cousins of all animals and plants. We
3:32know that we're descended from uh a
3:34common ancestor, which might have been
3:35something like bacteria. We know the
3:37process by which that came about. We
3:40don't know the details, but we
3:41understand essentially how it came
3:42about. There are still gaps in our
3:44understanding. We don't understand how
3:46the cosmos came into existence in the
3:48first place,
3:49but we're working on that.
3:52The scientific enterprise is an active
3:56seeking, an active seeking out of gaps
3:59in our knowledge, seeking out of
4:00ignorance, so that we can work
4:03to plug that ignorance.
4:05But religion teaches us to be satisfied
4:08with not really understanding. Every one
4:11of these difficult questions that comes
4:13up,
4:14science says, "Right, let's roll up our
4:16sleeves and work on it." Religion says,
4:18"Oh, God did it."
4:21We don't need to work on it. God did it.
4:23It's as simple as that. We have no
4:27thrusting
4:29force pushing us on to try to
4:31understand.
4:33Religion stultifies the impulse to
4:35understand because religion provides
4:38a facile
4:40easy, apparent explanation, although as
4:42we'll see later in the evening, it isn't
4:44really an explanation, and it prevents
4:50uh the further work on the problem.
4:54>> Richard Dawkins is right that people
4:56naturally look at the beauty, order, and
4:58complexity of the universe and sense
5:00that it points to something greater. The
5:02Bible says the same thing. Psalm 19:1
5:05declares, "The heavens declare the glory
5:07of God, and the sky above proclaim his
5:10handiwork." From the beauty and order of
5:12the natural world to the remarkable
5:14information stored in DNA, creation
5:17bears witness to God and naturally leads
5:19people to ask whether there is a creator
5:21behind it all. Where Dawkins and
5:23Christianity differ is in the
5:25explanation. He argues that the beauty,
5:27order, and complexity of the universe
5:30are ultimately the result of what he
5:31himself calls blind, pitiless
5:34indifference operating over billions of
5:36years, and that all living things can
5:38trace their origins back to a common
5:40ancestor. The irony is that Dawkins
5:43often criticizes Christians for
5:44believing by faith, yet his own
5:46worldview requires faith as well.
5:49Christians place their faith in an
5:50intelligent creator as the best
5:52explanation for the universe. Dawkins
5:54places his faith in blind, unguided
5:56processes to account for the origin of
5:58life, consciousness, morality, and the
6:01remarkable order we observe in the
6:03world. But how does Dawkins' view hold
6:05up under scrutiny? Here is Dr. John
6:08Lennox's powerful response.
6:10>> There are two issues here. Faith is
6:12blind, science is evidence-based.
6:16I do not agree with the first one, but I
6:19very much agree with the second one.
6:22Some faith is blind.
6:27And
6:28blind faith can be very dangerous,
6:31especially if it's coupled with a blind
6:33obedience to an evil authority.
6:36And that, ladies and gentlemen, I would
6:37like to emphasize is true whether the
6:39blind faith is that of religious or
6:42secular people.
6:45But not all faith is by blind faith,
6:47because faith itself carries with it the
6:50ideas of belief, trust, commitment, and
6:53is therefore only as robust as the
6:55evidence for it.
6:58Faith in the Flying Spaghetti Monster,
7:00much beloved of Richard Dawkins, a
7:02delightful idea,
7:04is
7:06blind because there's no evidence for
7:08the Flying Spaghetti
7:10Monster.
7:11But faith in relativity theory is not
7:14blind because there is evidence
7:15supporting it.
7:17I can't speak authoritatively for other
7:19religions, but faith in the Christian
7:22sense is not blind. And indeed, I do not
7:25know a serious Christian who thinks it
7:27is. Indeed, as I read it, blind faith in
7:32idols and figments of the human
7:34imagination, in other words, delusional
7:36gods, is roundly condemned in the Bible.
7:40My faith in God and Christ as the son of
7:43God, is no delusion. It is rational and
7:46evidence-based. Part of the evidence is
7:48objective, some of it comes from
7:50science, some comes from history, and
7:53some is subjective coming from
7:55experience.
7:57Now, of course, we do not speak of
7:59proof.
8:00You only get proof in the strict sense
8:02in my own field of mathematics.
8:04But, in every other field, including
8:07science, we can't speak of proof.
8:10We can speak of evidence, of pointers,
8:12of being convinced beyond reasonable
8:15doubt.
8:17I think it's important in this context
8:19to emphasize that science is limited,
8:22because it seems to me a creeping danger
8:24of equating science with rationality.
8:27But, what is beyond science is not
8:29necessarily irrational. Science cannot
8:32tell us, for instance, whether a poem, a
8:34work of literature, or a work of art or
8:36music is good or beautiful.
8:39Science can tell us that if you put
8:41strychnine into your grandmother's tea,
8:43it will kill her.
8:45But, science cannot tell you whether
8:46it's morally right to do so.
8:49And the Nobel Prize winner, Sir Peter
8:50Medawar, who's quite a hero, I think,
8:53for both of us,
8:54has pointed out that you can easily see
8:57the limits of science, because it cannot
9:00answer the elementary questions of a
9:01child. Who am I? What is the purpose of
9:05my existence?
9:07Where am I going?
9:10Now, Richard has just contrasted science
9:14and religion, religion being content
9:16with not understanding, whereas science
9:19is unraveling the understanding of the
9:21universe. And I understand and feel the
9:24force of that objection very strongly,
9:26because sometimes Christians, I admit,
9:29have been guilty of a lazy
9:31God-of-the-gaps kind of solution. I We
9:35understand it, therefore God did it. And
9:37of course God disappears as the gaps
9:39close.
9:40But I'd like to point out that there are
9:42two kind of kinds of gap, ladies and
9:44gentlemen.
9:45There are gaps that science closes, and
9:48I call those the bad gaps.
9:50But there are also gaps that science
9:52opens, and we may come to some of those
9:54later.
9:56But as for the idea itself,
9:58Richard referred to the very important
10:00fact that science and modern science as
10:03we know it exploded in the 16th and 17th
10:06centuries,
10:08and it arose out of a theistic
10:10background. And many philosophers of
10:11science have studied this and come to
10:13the conclusion that's now called
10:15Whitehead's thesis,
10:17that human beings became scientific
10:19because they expected law in nature, and
10:22they expected law in nature because they
10:24believed in the lawgiver.
10:26I think that is profoundly important
10:28because it means, far from religion
10:31hindering science, it was the driving
10:33force behind the rise of science in the
10:36first place.
10:37And when Isaac Newton, for example,
10:39discovered his law of gravity
10:42and wrote down the equations of of
10:44motion, he didn't say, "Marvelous, I now
10:47understand it. I've got a mechanism,
10:49therefore I don't need God."
10:52In fact, it was the exact opposite. It
10:54was because he understood the complexity
10:57and sophistication of the mathematical
10:59description of the universe that he his
11:02praise for God was increased. And I
11:05would like to suggest, Richard, that
11:07somewhere down in this you're making a
11:08category mistake
11:10because you're confusing mechanism with
11:12agency.
11:14We have a mechanism, it does X, Y, and
11:15Z, therefore there's no need for an
11:18agent.
11:19I would suggest that the sophistication
11:21of the mechanism, and science rejoices
11:23in finding such mechanisms, is evidence
11:26for the sheer wonder of the creative
11:29genius of God.
11:30>> Dawkins argues that science and
11:32Christianity are fundamentally
11:34incompatible. In his view, science rolls
11:37up his sleeves and searches for answers
11:39while religion simply says God did it
11:41and stops asking questions. But Lennox
11:43responds that this misunderstands the
11:45relationship between science and faith.
11:48Discovering a mechanism does not
11:50eliminate the need for an explanation
11:52behind it. Explaining how something
11:54works is not the same as explaining why
11:56it exists. Lennox points out that many
11:59of the pioneers of science saw their
12:01discoveries as evidence for God, not
12:04evidence against him. When Isaac Newton
12:06discovered the laws of gravity, he did
12:08not conclude that God was unnecessary
12:10because he had found a mechanism.
12:13Rather, his understanding of the
12:14universe deepened his awe of the
12:16creator. For Lennox, science and belief
12:19in God are not enemies. The more we
12:21understand the order and complexity of
12:24the universe, the more reason we have to
12:26marvel at the God who made it. But here
12:29is where Dawkins challenges Lennox's
12:30definition of faith. What follows is one
12:33simple question that literally leaves
12:35Dawkins speechless.
12:37>> Um when you say faith is rational and
12:41evidence-based,
12:42I mean, if that were true, it wouldn't
12:44need to be faith, would it? I mean, if
12:46there if there were evidence for it, uh
12:48why would you need to call it faith?
12:50You'd say it's just evidence. And when
12:51you said that we that that faith in
12:55relativity in in Einstein's theory of of
12:57relativity is is evidence-based, that of
13:00course it is, but
13:03the but the evidence is is all
13:05important. I mean, Einstein's
13:06predictions fit in with um
13:09with
13:10uh
13:11uh observed fact. And they and with a
13:13whole body of theory. Whereas, we only
13:16need to use the word faith when there
13:17isn't any evidence.
13:19>> No, not at all.
13:20I presume you've got faith in your wife.
13:22Is there any evidence for that on which
13:24you base it? Yes.
13:25>> There's of evidence. Um,
13:26>> [clears throat]
13:27>> I
13:35Let's generalize. And never mind about
13:36my wife. Let's generalize.
13:39>> It's the same with Bible, Richard. It's
13:41the same with Bible.
13:42>> Let's say Let's say that in general, how
13:45do we know that somebody loves us?
13:47Okay?
13:48>> Yes.
13:48>> Um,
13:49you can use a word faith for that if you
13:51like, but it's not the It's not the
13:52right use of the word because because
13:55you you know why you know your wife
13:58loves you because of all sorts of little
13:59signs, little catches in the voice,
14:01little little looks in the eye. Um,
14:04that's the evidence that it is evidence.
14:06That's perfectly good evidence. That's
14:08not faith.
14:09>> Yes, it is.
14:09>> Well, okay. Then then we're coming down
14:11to pure to pure semantics.
14:13>> What makes this exchange so fascinating
14:16is that Lennox exposes a false choice
14:18[music] that many people assume is true.
14:20We're often told that we must choose
14:22between science and God, between
14:24evidence and faith, between reason and
14:27Christianity. But that is simply not the
14:29case. Science is incredibly [music]
14:31powerful at helping us understand how
14:33the universe works. Christianity answers
14:36the deeper questions science cannot
14:38answer on its own. Why does the universe
14:40exist? [music] Why is it ordered and
14:42intelligible? Why do human beings have
14:44value, purpose, and moral
14:46responsibility? The Christian faith is
14:48not a leap into the dark. It is a
14:50response to evidence [music]
14:52that points beyond itself to a creator.
14:54The more we discover about the universe,
14:56the more reason we have not only to
14:58marvel at creation, but to worship the
15:00God who made it.

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