John Gacy Survivor interview-Tony — Transcript

Full transcript

1. 0:02all right Tony
2. 0:04uh where are you from urgent where'd you
3. 0:06grow up I grew up in Aurora Kentucky
4. 0:07which is in the western part of the
5. 0:09state near the uh Tennessee River on
6. 0:12Kentucky Lake
7. 0:14tell me about uh your childhood growing
8. 0:16up
9. 0:16well um single
10. 0:19um only child my father was an only
11. 0:21child my mother had seven brothers and
12. 0:24sisters
13. 0:25we were just the average family my
14. 0:28father went to the Korean war came back
15. 0:31opened up a Ashland gas station he had
16. 0:34other opportunities in Texas he was a
17. 0:37good salesman and a good organizer but
18. 0:40he landed in right on the river there
19. 0:43Tennessee River my mother was a waitress
20. 0:46at the state park we were the closest
21. 0:48home to the state park
22. 0:50and the state park was my playground so
23. 0:53the nearest Home was probably a mile
24. 0:56from ours
25. 0:58but I had the
26. 0:59playground sounds like a idyllic
27. 1:02childhood it was a lot of fun I wish my
28. 1:05children could go up grow up like that
29. 1:07but you you had a run-in with somebody
30. 1:10an Infamous I did in 1970
31. 1:14at the state park it was kin Lake State
32. 1:17Park
33. 1:18I had a run-in with uh John Wayne Gacy
34. 1:22and well actually I ran into him three
35. 1:25years later too but the first time you
36. 1:27met him was you were hold I was about a
37. 1:31month or a couple weeks from being 15.
38. 1:33hmm
39. 1:35what happened
40. 1:38um it was a typical Hot August Night I
41. 1:41was at the state park and I'd been
42. 1:43playing with some of the tourist kids
43. 1:44I'd ridden my bike across the golf
44. 1:47course over to the park property I was
45. 1:50sitting in the lobby he walks up to me
46. 1:53and he said uh are you a local I said
47. 1:56yes he said what's her to do around here
48. 1:59and he's dressed in a leisure suit a
49. 2:01black and brown leisure suit I was in
50. 2:04Orange swim trunks with a towel around
51. 2:06my neck
52. 2:07a city like fishing you like boating
53. 2:10it's a resort it's outdoor Paradise
54. 2:13hunting
55. 2:15he said no and then he I started to get
56. 2:19up he said what's there to do around
57. 2:20here
58. 2:22and I said are you into hiking or
59. 2:25sailing or camping and
60. 2:27he said no and then I started asking him
61. 2:29questions I said
62. 2:31um where are you from he said I'm from
63. 2:32Chicago I'm visiting some people down
64. 2:34here
65. 2:35and I said where he said Jonathan Creek
66. 2:37well I knew that was about four hours by
67. 2:40water four hours by land
68. 2:43so I started to get up again and he
69. 2:46asked me the question again so I went
70. 2:48ahead and stood up and I was starting to
71. 2:50get annoyed and uh
72. 2:52I said are you looking for liquor or are
73. 2:55you looking for for women I said this is
74. 2:59kind of a family style Resort
75. 3:02and as I started to walk off he said hey
76. 3:05would you like to have a beer
77. 3:06with me and I said sure
78. 3:09so we walked down to his room it was the
79. 3:11sixth room on the left
80. 3:13I knew most of the workers at the state
81. 3:16park but there was a new desk clerk
82. 3:18named Ella working that night and she we
83. 3:21had seen each other I had the keys to
84. 3:23the uh to some of the rooms where I
85. 3:25could get a fresh towel if I needed it
86. 3:27since my mother worked there I was a
87. 3:30fixture really on the property
88. 3:32so we go down to his room
89. 3:35he opens the door Jose old-fashioned
90. 3:38keys back then I walk in
91. 3:42I'll take a couple steps he walks in
92. 3:44behind me and he he takes his hand and
93. 3:47he grazes my behind my butt
94. 3:50and I thought that was a little weird
95. 3:53um
96. 3:54I thought maybe that was a mistake
97. 3:56I look to the right which was a typical
98. 3:58hotel room and the bathtub was
99. 4:00completely filled up filled to the top
100. 4:02with ice
101. 4:04and uh there's two chairs two beds the
102. 4:08TV was in between the chairs
103. 4:11I took a seat at the first
104. 4:13chair
105. 4:15and then he goes to a cooler and brings
106. 4:18back a beer it was a wiedemann and a red
107. 4:20white and black can
108. 4:22he hands me the beer
109. 4:24and then he goes over and shuts the
110. 4:26curtains
111. 4:28and
112. 4:29we were on the first floor
113. 4:31and my bike was parked just right
114. 4:33outside the window probably 30 40 feet
115. 4:36away
116. 4:37and he's closed the curtains he walks
117. 4:42past me
118. 4:43this would have been the picture glass
119. 4:46window here this would have been the
120. 4:48restroom
121. 4:49as he goes past me
122. 4:51he starts talking to me just asking me
123. 4:53questions and you know what I did what
124. 4:56my parents did and things like that
125. 4:58and he locks the door
126. 5:01and now I'm starting to feel well that's
127. 5:04a little weird too because initially I
128. 5:07thought we was going to have kind of a
129. 5:08man-to-man conversation I'd been around
130. 5:11my dad's my dad had a sawdust
131. 5:13clandestine gambling joint behind a gas
132. 5:16station
133. 5:17and he'd let me hang out with all the
134. 5:20men in there he'd also uh I had when I
135. 5:24was 13. I got on my dad about not being
136. 5:26able to mow yards because we didn't have
137. 5:28any neighbors and he said I'll take you
138. 5:30down to the lake where all the gods come
139. 5:32in let you clean fish
140. 5:34so he told me to go in and start talking
141. 5:37to the guides about cleaning fish and my
142. 5:40pitch to them was while you're getting
143. 5:42your gas your boat gassed up for
144. 5:45tomorrow and your bait everything ready
145. 5:47for tomorrow I can take care of this for
146. 5:49you and that was kind of my little side
147. 5:51hustle when I was 13. but anyway back to
148. 5:54uh
149. 5:56he uh he seemed to start getting
150. 5:59agitated so I was drinking my beer on
151. 6:02this next trip through he asked me if I
152. 6:04like sex books
153. 6:06and in my mind I was thinking Playboy
154. 6:09and I'd only seen Playboy a few times on
155. 6:11the back of the bus with one of my
156. 6:12friends uh he would take the Playboy
157. 6:15from his older brother and all of us
158. 6:16would gather around on the back of a
159. 6:19school bus in a rural road where we were
160. 6:21all bumping heads trying to see the
161. 6:23centerfold
162. 6:24and so he takes the suitcase out sets it
163. 6:28on the bed
164. 6:29opens it up it's full of books there's
165. 6:31probably a magazine there's probably 50
166. 6:33or 60 magazines there
167. 6:36um I reach over start Fanning through
168. 6:39them
169. 6:40and I didn't see anything that I thought
170. 6:43I would like so he grabs a couple and
171. 6:45just hands them to me
172. 6:47I set back and I start thumbing through
173. 6:50them they're all boys
174. 6:52so
175. 6:54at this time when I'm going through the
176. 6:57uh the magazines he's back in the
177. 7:01restroom he's I hear the faucet come on
178. 7:04and off next time he comes out he's got
179. 7:06a towel wrapped around his neck
180. 7:09and uh at the that time when he came out
181. 7:12he locks the deadbolts on the door
182. 7:16so
183. 7:17now things start to slow motion kicks in
184. 7:21on me I think this is not right
185. 7:24something's wrong I'm I'm in a bad
186. 7:26situation here
187. 7:28so
188. 7:29I got the same feeling about a year
189. 7:31before me and a fellow that was a friend
190. 7:34of mine tried to swim across Kentucky
191. 7:36Lake which was almost a while a mile
192. 7:38wide we got halfway across and he starts
193. 7:41to panic I said you got to roll over
194. 7:43and start swimming on your back until we
195. 7:45can get some help
196. 7:46and I started looking for a buoy
197. 7:48someplace for us to find something to
198. 7:50float luckily in a few minutes the
199. 7:53border patrol or the
200. 7:55Lake Patrol came through and we were
201. 7:58able to get out of there but I had the
202. 7:59same feeling I was starting to panic a
203. 8:02little bit
204. 8:03he comes back through
205. 8:06and I said hey there's there's just Boys
206. 8:09in these books
207. 8:11and he says I got something else you
208. 8:14might like
209. 8:15so he goes to the other side of the bed
210. 8:17puts another suitcase up on the bed
211. 8:18opens it up it's full of shackles and
212. 8:21handcuffs
213. 8:23and chains
214. 8:25and inside my mind I'm thinking this is
215. 8:28this is bad I got to get out of here
216. 8:31so I take my beer it was about half full
217. 8:33I set it down to my left heel
218. 8:36and I said the next time he goes to the
219. 8:38bathroom I'm going to take this cooler
220. 8:40and I'm either going to throw it through
221. 8:42the window
222. 8:43or I'm going to move it where I can get
223. 8:44away so he goes in the bathroom again
224. 8:47and his uh demeanor
225. 8:50his his
226. 8:52eyes start to get a little squinty
227. 8:55um
228. 8:57he was changing he was he was looking at
229. 9:01me when he was sneering at me when he
230. 9:03would walk by
231. 9:05and I'm pretty big kid for 15 but I I
232. 9:08knew I didn't have enough this was a
233. 9:11powerful powerfully built man
234. 9:13and so as soon as he goes in the
235. 9:15bathroom and the faucet comes on I grab
236. 9:17the cooler I take it over into the far
237. 9:19corner
238. 9:20right by the window
239. 9:22and when he comes back out after he had
240. 9:25mentioned the the chains and the
241. 9:27shackles and all that stuff
242. 9:29I said do you have any snacks
243. 9:31and while he's looking at me I kicked my
244. 9:34beer over
245. 9:36and he's he act kind of
246. 9:39uh
247. 9:41disoriented for a second he said no I
248. 9:44don't have any snacks and I said can I
249. 9:46have another beer so he looks where the
250. 9:49cooler was he didn't see the cooler
251. 9:53and he goes starts looking for the
252. 9:55cooler well he goes he walks past me and
253. 9:57around both beds and I hit the door
254. 10:01and I'm hitting them unlock them
255. 10:03unlocking the chain I'm unlocking the
256. 10:05deadbolt and I opened the door and just
257. 10:07as I step out he grabs me and he hit he
258. 10:10he grabs at me he hits me a couple of
259. 10:13times but I just kept back pedaling
260. 10:15because I didn't have on a shirt for him
261. 10:16to grab I didn't have any shoes
262. 10:19so I back on out of there walked past
263. 10:23the desk clerk Ella
264. 10:25and I get get on my bike and I'm a
265. 10:28little shaken but I didn't know who he
266. 10:29was I just figured if some weird weird
267. 10:32guy
268. 10:33um
269. 10:34but I'd been around enough men with my
270. 10:37father's um
271. 10:39backroom gambling stat establishment
272. 10:42that I knew that was that was not normal
273. 10:44so I'll get home I go across the golf
274. 10:47course the dudes flying up off my bike
275. 10:49hit me it was wet
276. 10:52um I had to cross the road and go up a
277. 10:54hill we lived up on a hill I had a
278. 10:56German Shepherd named Vaughn and Vine
279. 10:59started to bark like I was a stranger
280. 11:00until I got about halfway up the hill
281. 11:01then he he knew it was me so he started
282. 11:04whimpering
283. 11:05my mom opens the door she says where you
284. 11:08been I was getting ready to come looking
285. 11:09for you
286. 11:11I said mom you're not going to believe
287. 11:12what happened to me
288. 11:13and so I told her the whole story
289. 11:17my mom smoked about three cigarettes a
290. 11:19day but she backed up against the
291. 11:21kitchen counter
292. 11:22and lit a cigarette and I could tell she
293. 11:25was real concerned
294. 11:27and I said this weird guy tried to trap
295. 11:29me in his room
296. 11:31At first she was just taking it in but
297. 11:33then she got more nervous and more
298. 11:35nervous
299. 11:36she worked there she worked at the state
300. 11:38park but she and she was a desk clerk
301. 11:41too now she started as a waitress when
302. 11:43she was young
303. 11:44uh Associates of law talked to your dad
304. 11:46about it when he gets home
305. 11:48and we knew it'd be midnight before he
306. 11:50got home that's when all the gambling
307. 11:51stopped he ran the gambling from one in
308. 11:55the morning or from one in the afternoon
309. 11:57to midnight one in the morning
310. 12:00so
311. 12:02fast forward three years we still live
312. 12:04by the park that's still my playground
313. 12:06I'm working at the marina now
314. 12:09and I was taking on a lot of
315. 12:12responsibilities at the marina I was in
316. 12:15charge of the houseboat rentals and
317. 12:16other things I worked with a big Samoan
318. 12:19guy he was 6'4 his name was Pete
319. 12:22so me and Peter sitting out
320. 12:25by the gas docks at the marina
321. 12:27and
322. 12:29I went in the five in the morning to one
323. 12:31in the afternoon shift and I thought
324. 12:33well I'm going to check the wind see if
325. 12:35how calm the lake is I'm going to walk
326. 12:37to the front of the marina and see if
327. 12:39it's black capping or if we can go water
328. 12:42skiing when I get off
329. 12:43so I walked to the front of the marinas
330. 12:45turn the corner and I bump into a guy
331. 12:49and for my first reaction was I said
332. 12:52excuse me I step aside he steps aside
333. 12:54and it was healed
334. 12:57now I'm almost 18 now
335. 12:59and I said Hey do you remember me
336. 13:03and he said no I don't remember you and
337. 13:06I said you're from Chicago I said you
338. 13:09remember me
339. 13:11and he said no I don't well I was kind
340. 13:14of full of piss and vinegar at that age
341. 13:16so I kind of went chest to chest with
342. 13:18him I said yes you do I'm not 14 anymore
343. 13:22oh I was almost 15.
344. 13:25and by that time my boss walks out Mr
345. 13:28Wilhelm
346. 13:30and he says everything okay so
347. 13:33we went our separate ways
348. 13:35uh
349. 13:37then
350. 13:39I guess it's 78
351. 13:41December 78
352. 13:44um
353. 13:45I'm older now I'm driving a lot of the
354. 13:47kids I went to school high school and
355. 13:49college with and in that part of the
356. 13:51country had moved to Nashville
357. 13:54I'd been in Nashville partying we had
358. 13:57closed down some bars and Printers Alley
359. 13:58which was a big section of Nashville
360. 14:00Tennessee
361. 14:02I was hungover I was hungry it was
362. 14:05December 23rd I believe
363. 14:07I was so I started home I went by
364. 14:10Rivergate Mall I was going to get a
365. 14:12present for my mom and dad and I ended
366. 14:14up getting them one of those
367. 14:17boxes of cheese and salami and all that
368. 14:20stuff so I walked to have it wrapped
369. 14:22there was a bunch of ladies on a
370. 14:23horseshoe horseshoe tables out in the
371. 14:26intersection of the mall wrapping gifts
372. 14:28I set the get the gift up on the table
373. 14:30and I sat down and I looked behind them
374. 14:33I see this row of newspapers
375. 14:36and I don't know if it was my brain
376. 14:38kicked in before my eyes kicked in
377. 14:41but I as I'm staring at these newspapers
378. 14:44I couldn't really see the headlines but
379. 14:46I could see this guy's face
380. 14:48and I started getting cold chills
381. 14:53so
382. 14:54I got up walked over there and every
383. 14:57step I was saying to myself that's the
384. 14:59guy that's the guy that tried to trap me
385. 15:01in the in the hotel room that's the guy
386. 15:04I ran into at the marina four years
387. 15:06later
388. 15:08so I get home
389. 15:10and I was telling my I didn't live at
390. 15:12home then but I stopped by the house to
391. 15:15tell my mom the story she said well I'm
392. 15:17going to call this Chicago Police
393. 15:18Department I said don't do that Mom I
394. 15:20said
395. 15:21you know what's the usage what she did
396. 15:23it anyway
397. 15:25so she called the Chicago Police
398. 15:26Department
399. 15:28she didn't know that the Chicago Police
400. 15:30Department didn't have the um
401. 15:33they didn't really have the case they
402. 15:35had no jurisdiction it was the Cook
403. 15:36County Sheriff who had the jurisdiction
404. 15:39and this police officer said
405. 15:42he kind of blew my mom off he said
406. 15:44ma'am do you think we really need
407. 15:46someone's help a ladies helping Kentucky
408. 15:48when we got all these bodies under this
409. 15:50guy's house
410. 15:52so she said well I just wanted you to
411. 15:54make a report so he took her name took
412. 15:56my name put the date on it
413. 15:59and uh
414. 16:01we kind of forgot about it
415. 16:03then
416. 16:06in
417. 16:09I guess 96 or 97 a detective from
418. 16:14the Cook County Sheriff call me he
419. 16:16wanted me to tell him the story so I did
420. 16:19he would just ask me questions
421. 16:21but he wouldn't really give me any
422. 16:23feedback so I've told him the story
423. 16:26then 2007 a reporter from the Chicago
424. 16:28Tribune called me
425. 16:30and he had a lot of knowledge
426. 16:32he had more knowledge of course he had
427. 16:34the
428. 16:35he had the benefit of being after the
429. 16:37effect after the fact
430. 16:40but he said I want to talk to you about
431. 16:42this encounter so we talked about it we
432. 16:43talked for 45 minutes
433. 16:46and he said he believed and I do too now
434. 16:50that Casey
435. 16:51cruised the Dells of Wisconsin
436. 16:55Lake Geneva
437. 16:57Lake of the Ozarks
438. 16:59and Kentucky Lake
439. 17:01and he said they have a lot of what they
440. 17:04call drownings
441. 17:06but he don't believe there were
442. 17:07drownings he believed these young men
443. 17:09were killed
444. 17:11so
445. 17:14we kind of parted you know he said he'd
446. 17:16get back in touch with me and he asked
447. 17:18me if I wanted to talk to him again to
448. 17:19call him I never did this never really
449. 17:22bothered me it still don't bother me but
450. 17:24until I got to be 50 55 years old then I
451. 17:28started thinking about it
452. 17:29and I I probably told
453. 17:3220 people about it
454. 17:34and I was relaying it to my son and he
455. 17:37said well you should write it down so I
456. 17:39did
457. 17:39I wrote it down I think the reason
458. 17:42though that I got away from this guy
459. 17:44was
460. 17:46because my mom and dad
461. 17:50just let me I had unlimited freedom
462. 17:54and a lot of fathers
463. 17:57in a back room wasn't hardly as big as
464. 17:59this room but when you got gambling and
465. 18:01poker and dice and drinking and
466. 18:05um I was five or six years old and my
467. 18:08dad would
468. 18:09let me walk around in there not to hear
469. 18:11guys cussing and not hear
470. 18:14every you know you hear everything my
471. 18:16dad never covered my ears
472. 18:19um
473. 18:21and this place was like
474. 18:23the lake at that time was a boom town
475. 18:26because Interstate 24 hadn't come in so
476. 18:29everyone traveling north to south would
477. 18:31pass through
478. 18:33where my dad had his business and there
479. 18:35was plus there was an airport behind it
480. 18:39and my dad
481. 18:40when he got home from the Korean War he
482. 18:42wanted to have fun my grandmother said
483. 18:44he's going to dedicate the rest of his
484. 18:46life to having fun because his ship was
485. 18:48shot a couple times
486. 18:49one song Harbor
487. 18:51me and around him died he told my
488. 18:53grandmother he was going to work but he
489. 18:55was going to have fun he turned down a
490. 18:56couple of jobs in Houston
491. 18:58with oil companies and that's that's
492. 19:01really the reason he
493. 19:04leaned towards uh I think opening up a
494. 19:07Ashland oil gas station
495. 19:09so
496. 19:11my dad had a couple of mechanics that
497. 19:14really ran the gas station he worked in
498. 19:15the back room
499. 19:17they're named for scroggs and jamer they
500. 19:20were Kentucky boys country boys could
501. 19:22fix anything can make anything
502. 19:26I'm five or six years old I'm hanging
503. 19:28out in the gas station and I for a
504. 19:30couple of months I'd been asking him to
505. 19:32make me a go-kart
506. 19:33or make me a mini bike
507. 19:35well they did they made me a mini bike
508. 19:38and this was
509. 19:40this was near a place called Golden Pond
510. 19:42in the
511. 19:43Treasury and revenue agents named it the
512. 19:46Golden Pond because every time the
513. 19:48whiskey Stills would get
514. 19:50crushed by the by the feds they said the
515. 19:53whiskey would roll down the mountains
516. 19:55and form a Golden Pond
517. 19:57so that's how it got its name
518. 20:00I'm behind the gas station I'm across
519. 20:03the airport riding this mini bike and I
520. 20:05start up a trail
521. 20:07and I'd seen these guys come and go at
522. 20:09the gas station and I knew because a big
523. 20:12part of my dad's business was
524. 20:14putting bladders in these cars
525. 20:16putting extra shocks on these cars he
526. 20:19didn't do it but the guys working for
527. 20:21him did because they were hauling
528. 20:22whiskey to Evansville to Cincinnati to
529. 20:26to Nashville
530. 20:28and there was a couple of guys that kind
531. 20:30of stood out as as haulers they'd make
532. 20:33sure their cars was clean
533. 20:35because they didn't want to look like
534. 20:36they were coming from back roads
535. 20:39so there was one one guy in particular
536. 20:41his name was scooper and he was kind of
537. 20:43a James Dean looking character
538. 20:47he so I'm riding my mini bike I go up
539. 20:50this mountain
540. 20:51on this Trail they had a lot of power
541. 20:53too it was a custom-made bike
542. 20:55a deer jumps out in front of me and I I
543. 20:58kind of crashed this kind of went over
544. 21:00as it went over there was a man I could
545. 21:03hear these men arguing and they were
546. 21:05arguing in a whiskey still
547. 21:08and so I looked at him and I thought oh
548. 21:11that's just guys making whiskey and here
549. 21:12I'm six years old but I know what's
550. 21:14going on I go back to my mini bike
551. 21:18and then I hear a fight break out
552. 21:19between these guys and I hear a guy let
553. 21:22out a whale
554. 21:23and I thought I recognized one of the
555. 21:25guys as one of those one of the drivers
556. 21:27that used to drive the whiskey
557. 21:29and
558. 21:31I didn't know what had happened to the
559. 21:32guy
560. 21:33so I I get back to the station
561. 21:37I didn't mention it to my dad just
562. 21:39another
563. 21:40another incident of men gathered
564. 21:43doing something
565. 21:45a few days later
566. 21:47my dad tells me this guy died
567. 21:50and they had stabbed him in the femoral
568. 21:52artery
569. 21:54and so I told my dad about it at dinner
570. 21:58and he said well we're not going to
571. 22:00mention that anymore
572. 22:02and
573. 22:04so we never talked about it much
574. 22:07but
575. 22:09um
576. 22:10again everyone thinks that they grow up
577. 22:12in a regular family
578. 22:14and I did too because you know I had
579. 22:16friends and
580. 22:18but some of the church ladies would
581. 22:21they they wouldn't look Us in the eye
582. 22:24Mark I feel like I'm doing all talking
583. 22:27no you're doing great you're doing great
584. 22:28what kind of work have you done in your
585. 22:30life
586. 22:31well I've always had a
587. 22:34a work ethic so I started working when I
588. 22:37was 13. I was working at the marina I
589. 22:40was I was kind of hanging around at the
590. 22:43marina went to college got a couple of
591. 22:45degrees I actually worked for Tennessee
592. 22:48Valley Authority when I first got out of
593. 22:49college
594. 22:52I was
595. 22:55kind of wild I wasn't mean but I was
596. 22:57wild a lot of drinking a lot of parties
597. 23:00fell into pills when I was young
598. 23:04never got into coke or heroin or
599. 23:07anything like that
600. 23:09but to support my habit and I bought a
601. 23:13used sailboat
602. 23:14my grandfather was a painter in Miami
603. 23:17I sailed around Kentucky like a couple
604. 23:20seasons and then I needed some work on
605. 23:22my boat so I towed it down to Miami left
606. 23:24it with my grandfather
607. 23:26some of the people in the area where he
608. 23:29lived in Miami they were mostly Blue
609. 23:31Collar Working Families he was a painter
610. 23:33but he he was really a drinker he'd
611. 23:36paint about three days a week and drink
612. 23:38the other
613. 23:39four
614. 23:42I got to know some of the boys around
615. 23:44there they seen my boat in his backyard
616. 23:46when he got it finished he said he
617. 23:49called me he said some of these guys
618. 23:52want to test your boat I said fine let
619. 23:54them you know I kind of grew up with
620. 23:56them when I was down there visiting him
621. 23:59um
622. 24:00in about a year
623. 24:02I'd call and say it's my boat okay and
624. 24:04say yeah they brought it back and then
625. 24:06for then they quit bringing it back so
626. 24:08so I went down to investigate
627. 24:10these guys were bringing um
628. 24:13bales of marijuana into the country they
629. 24:16go out every night bring it back in
630. 24:18some of them ended up getting in trouble
631. 24:20a boat got confiscated I got my boat
632. 24:23back
633. 24:24and then I got contacted by some guys
634. 24:26some Colombian guys that wanted me to
635. 24:29take over their role
636. 24:31going out six to eight miles meeting
637. 24:34them bringing
638. 24:35bringing marijuana in so probably
639. 24:37brought in seven or eight tons of
640. 24:39marijuana
641. 24:40uh
642. 24:42gotten got arrested for it
643. 24:45beat the charge down there and then they
644. 24:47picked it up in Western Kentucky
645. 24:49and charged me with this distribution
646. 24:52I played out went to the federal prison
647. 24:55for a little while from 86 to 89
648. 24:58.
649. 25:01since
650. 25:02since I went to
651. 25:05they rate you when you go into federal
652. 25:07prison you're either a one which is a
653. 25:09low level White Collar criminal or
654. 25:11you're a six which is the worst to the
655. 25:13worst
656. 25:14when you're in the federal prison I was
657. 25:16a one
658. 25:18I started out in camps I started out in
659. 25:20Lexington went to Terre Haute went to
660. 25:22Duluth
661. 25:24and went back to Marion Illinois which
662. 25:27was right across the street from the
663. 25:28only level six that replaced Alcatraz
664. 25:32so
665. 25:33I was a model prisoner
666. 25:35stayed busy played tennis played them
667. 25:38back the prison basketball team
668. 25:41one day my counselor comes said I want
669. 25:43you to go home you've been good I want
670. 25:45you to go home for five days I said okay
671. 25:47so I thought it was a chance to spend
672. 25:49some time with my children
673. 25:50I go home and when I get home I become
674. 25:54Afflicted with pneumonia
675. 25:56so I went to my family doctor
676. 25:58one of the rules when you leave federal
677. 26:00prison on a furlough you're not supposed
678. 26:02to take any medicine so I called the
679. 26:05prison
680. 26:06I said I've got pneumonia they give me
681. 26:09three medications they said bring them
682. 26:11in with you
683. 26:12so
684. 26:13when you're in the federal at that time
685. 26:15when you're in the federal prison system
686. 26:17your counselors the correctional
687. 26:19officers would say things like if you
688. 26:21mess up your boy we'll send you on up
689. 26:23the ladder and you'll end up in in
690. 26:25Marion Illinois in the new Alcatraz
691. 26:28and nobody paid much attempts they were
692. 26:30just kind of kidding with you
693. 26:32so I come back in after my furlough I
694. 26:35set my three bottles of medicine up
695. 26:36there
696. 26:37they said take him across the street and
697. 26:39lock him up even though I got permission
698. 26:42to bring them in
699. 26:43I was antibiotic one was Valium
700. 26:47because they wanted my lungs to relax
701. 26:50so they put me in the new Alcatraz in
702. 26:53the level six Penitentiary on H unit
703. 26:57which level one wasn't supposed to be in
704. 27:00a level six
705. 27:02so
706. 27:03I only had a year to go
707. 27:05so I spent the last 11 months basically
708. 27:08in the in the toughest prison
709. 27:11um
710. 27:13but getting back when you first entered
711. 27:14the prison these these guards and these
712. 27:16counselors they say if you mess up we'll
713. 27:18send you
714. 27:19to the new Alcatraz and we'll put you on
715. 27:21the reins with a guy named Sonny Burkett
716. 27:23Sonny Burkett had been in the in the
717. 27:26in the riots in New York and the prison
718. 27:28rights of New York he was he had burned
719. 27:31snitches with uh
720. 27:33blow torches
721. 27:35he uh he had 1800 years and he was on H
722. 27:38unit
723. 27:39in Marion Illinois
724. 27:42so I'd been in there about two hours I'm
725. 27:44laying on my cell
726. 27:45and you don't even have bars the it's
727. 27:48the place is so bad they take you to the
728. 27:50dentist
729. 27:51in a cage they'll put you in a cage like
730. 27:54like you were a big cat or something
731. 27:57they'll pull you to the dentist
732. 27:59you had to go through 15 or 20
733. 28:01electronic doors to get back there to
734. 28:03where the the
735. 28:05sales were
736. 28:07so all all these years these three years
737. 28:10they'd say or two years they'd say you
738. 28:12mess up here we'll send you to Marion
739. 28:14Illinois and put you on the range with
740. 28:15sunny Burkett
741. 28:18Sonny had killed 16 inmates in the
742. 28:21prison
743. 28:23he'd been in the Attica riots and they'd
744. 28:25they transfer the worst of the worst
745. 28:27state prisoners to the divorce Federal
746. 28:30Prison
747. 28:31so I'm laying there on my cell it's all
748. 28:34in my on my bed it's all concrete
749. 28:36there's there's no way to
750. 28:39to make a tool out of anything
751. 28:41and there's no bars on the doors either
752. 28:43it's just a window
753. 28:45in the Halls are real wide
754. 28:47because
755. 28:49I guess for security purposes
756. 28:51so all of a sudden this face pops up in
757. 28:54my cell door
758. 28:56and he said uh you're new aren't you
759. 29:00I said yeah I just got here
760. 29:02he said you know who I am
761. 29:05I said no
762. 29:07he said I'm Sonny Burkett you've heard
763. 29:09of me haven't you
764. 29:11and I said well I think I have heard of
765. 29:13you sonny
766. 29:14and it was like looking into the eyes of
767. 29:16a Rottweiler
768. 29:18he could be scared of me
769. 29:20and I said well I don't have any reason
770. 29:22to be scared of you I just got here
771. 29:25he said you have any King which is an
772. 29:28orange drink you mix up
773. 29:30and I said I just got here I hadn't had
774. 29:32time to go to commissary or put in an
775. 29:34order for anything
776. 29:36he said well when you get some King I'll
777. 29:37trade you some coffee
778. 29:40and as he's talking to me this guy pops
779. 29:42up across the hall half his face is a
780. 29:45spider web
781. 29:46and I found out later this guy's name
782. 29:48was hacksaw he escaped from all the
783. 29:51other penitentiaries level fives the
784. 29:53level fours
785. 29:55and he had kind of gone crazy but he
786. 29:57knew who Sonny was
787. 30:00so he's shaking his head no all the time
788. 30:03Sonny's talking to me
789. 30:04so sending student Sonny leaves he goes
790. 30:07hey
791. 30:08he goes that guy will try to trick you
792. 30:10into taking going to the law library
793. 30:12he'll take it to the law library and
794. 30:14kill you that's where he kills everyone
795. 30:16and I said well I wasn't going to go to
796. 30:17law library I'm about out of here I said
797. 30:20what about you hacksaw he said well I
798. 30:22got 10 more years
799. 30:23he said but I'll get out of here I said
800. 30:25this is escape proof you'll never get
801. 30:27out of here it's a level six
802. 30:28Penitentiary I said you can't get out of
803. 30:30here he goes oh yeah I can he said
804. 30:32they'll transfer me to another unit
805. 30:34he said the last time I escaped I went
806. 30:36to Mexico he went into a big story
807. 30:39so
808. 30:41sunny
809. 30:43I'd been in there a few days and they
810. 30:45brought my clothes over
811. 30:46they I filled out a list for commissary
812. 30:49where you can get oranges and apples
813. 30:52he comes back we start trading items
814. 30:57I received USA Today and
815. 31:01a couple other newspapers
816. 31:05um I was there reading one of my
817. 31:06newspapers one day
818. 31:08and the only time you really got out of
819. 31:10your sale the place was so dangerous
820. 31:12is if you go to the shower and back
821. 31:14which is twice a week so I seen this
822. 31:16Shadow walk by my door
823. 31:19and then a new this Newsweek come flying
824. 31:22under my cell door
825. 31:24and it was Carlos later who had been one
826. 31:26of the
827. 31:27members of the first big cartels and
828. 31:31Columbia
829. 31:33it had a note on it
830. 31:35it said I see you get a couple
831. 31:38newspapers I get a couple magazines
832. 31:40let's trade so we did
833. 31:42so then he got to stop him by myself
834. 31:46um
835. 31:47but everybody in the new Alcatraz was
836. 31:50long-termers I wasn't a long-termer most
837. 31:52of them were violent I wasn't really
838. 31:54about I'd been in a few brawls but I
839. 31:57wasn't really violent
840. 32:00um
841. 32:00so I I was lucky to get out of there I
842. 32:03thought
843. 32:03finally my mother called the congressman
844. 32:05so much to get me out of there that uh
845. 32:09I think I was the last level one they
846. 32:11were put in a level six
847. 32:14got out in 89 started my life over
848. 32:18moved from Western Kentucky
849. 32:21to Lexington Kentucky just to be close
850. 32:23to my children
851. 32:25um a buddy came by from college
852. 32:28went with him up to that point I was you
853. 32:31get all the bad jobs washing dishes
854. 32:33mopping floors even with a couple
855. 32:36college degrees had a degree in
856. 32:37accounting a degree in criminal justice
857. 32:40but I still wouldn't wasn't getting any
858. 32:42any work until I got an insurance
859. 32:45license then I started making some money
860. 32:47getting my life back together
861. 32:51I had an insurance office above a
862. 32:53grocery store in Lexington and Nick it
863. 32:56was a a strip center
864. 32:59but some offices were upstairs and there
865. 33:01were some people that had the office
866. 33:02next to me who had contracts to do
867. 33:06carpet installation loads and Home Depot
868. 33:09well they hired people all over the
869. 33:10state
870. 33:11I heard some guys in in the eastern part
871. 33:13of the state they would come in weekly
872. 33:15and work two or three days and go back
873. 33:18one day they heard me talking about
874. 33:19buying a truck I was in the mood in the
875. 33:22market for a truck a used truck I was
876. 33:25going to keep my automobile but I'm just
877. 33:27looking for a truck
878. 33:30these guys were from Floyd County
879. 33:32Kentucky
880. 33:34and then I'd seen them wave at them say
881. 33:37hi whatever
882. 33:39they said hey we heard you was looking
883. 33:41for a truck
884. 33:42and I said yeah I'm still looking for a
885. 33:44truck they said we know God's got one
886. 33:46for sale
887. 33:47I said okay I said give me his phone
888. 33:49number I said well they don't have a
889. 33:51phone he lives over in Floyd County
890. 33:54you'll probably have to come over there
891. 33:56and check it out
892. 33:58so they left a few days later the guy
893. 34:02goes hey I'm going over to Floyd County
894. 34:04you want to ride over with me and he
895. 34:06showed me the picture of this truck
896. 34:07again you see he wants four thousand
897. 34:08dollars for it
898. 34:10I said okay when I closed down the
899. 34:12office we'll we'll go over there
900. 34:14so I ride over to
901. 34:16Floyd County Kentucky with this guy I'd
902. 34:20worked all over the eastern part of the
903. 34:21state
904. 34:22and he says we got to go to my brother's
905. 34:26first but I got to pick him up at Kmart
906. 34:28so he stops and picks his brother up at
907. 34:30Kmart and his brother comes out of Kmart
908. 34:32with a large tent on his shoulder I've
909. 34:35never seen his brother before but I said
910. 34:38where's his where's his car
911. 34:40he said I'll be they mumbles something
912. 34:43he said we're going to go by his house
913. 34:45first
914. 34:47so
915. 34:48her now this feeling I'd I'd had when I
916. 34:51was 15 starting to kick in a little bit
917. 34:53I barely know this guy he knows I got
918. 34:55four thousand dollars in my pocket
919. 34:57we picked up his brother who's got a
920. 35:00Sleepy Eye
921. 35:02and he's got a tent on his shoulder we
922. 35:04get to his house I did need to go to the
923. 35:06restroom
924. 35:07so it's it's up a holler it's it's kind
925. 35:11of um
926. 35:12you know wooden frame house
927. 35:15we walk in the front door and we're
928. 35:17standing there I said where's the guy
929. 35:18with the truck and they said oh we got
930. 35:21to go we got to go over to his house
931. 35:24well he motions to the guy to go out and
932. 35:26get the tent
933. 35:27out of that we were in a van we're in a
934. 35:29Chevy van
935. 35:32so I said well I'm going to go ahead and
936. 35:34go to the restroom
937. 35:36so I go to the restroom
938. 35:38I get in this it's a small restroom
939. 35:40and I thought these guys are going to
940. 35:42kill me they're going to kill me for
941. 35:44this four thousand dollars
942. 35:47so I checked the window and it was hard
943. 35:49to open and it was small but I finally
944. 35:52got it open
945. 35:53I took the shower curtain down and the
946. 35:56door didn't really have a lock on it so
947. 35:58I pressed it up against the doorknob put
948. 36:00it against the tub
949. 36:02it was starting to get dark I crawled
950. 36:04out of this window
951. 36:06I don't know exactly where I am
952. 36:09but I know I'm going to get away from
953. 36:10this house
954. 36:11so I walked in the woods for
955. 36:14probably an hour
956. 36:17I'd really kind of lost my bearing so I
957. 36:19would walk a while and I'd listen a
958. 36:20while I thought maybe I could hear a car
959. 36:22on a on a road I thought maybe I could
960. 36:26hear a creek a river
961. 36:28or anything finally I did start hearing
962. 36:31a car
963. 36:34so I walked to a convenience store
964. 36:37I finally I was leery about getting out
965. 36:39on the road
966. 36:41and call someone to come pick me up
967. 36:44so that was one of the experiences I had
968. 36:46in Appalachia
969. 36:48you had some some brushes with uh almost
970. 36:53dying it seems well couple
971. 36:57my I I think I got this from my father
972. 37:00my father always rooted for the underdog
973. 37:03but he he had a
974. 37:06um he sort of sought out
975. 37:10illicit Adventures I did too it was a
976. 37:14thrill for me
977. 37:16I still have a little of that in me I
978. 37:18don't know if it's
979. 37:19I'm not really a gambler but I think
980. 37:21that replaced what
981. 37:23some people would call gambling is it
982. 37:25just the adrenaline I think so
983. 37:29um
984. 37:32but when I think back about those days I
985. 37:35I almost
986. 37:37seems like a different person doesn't
987. 37:40really seem like something I would have
988. 37:41done but I'm I was pretty wild
989. 37:43we living in the country live in the
990. 37:46rural areas we
991. 37:48we had a there was a bridge across
992. 37:50Kentucky lake called eggnospheric Bridge
993. 37:52it's about 80 feet from the water
994. 37:55and we started jumping off of it and
995. 37:58then we started doing flips off of it
996. 38:00and then a couple guys quit
997. 38:02jumping off it then we started doing it
998. 38:04night
999. 38:05that was more of a thrill because you
1000. 38:07couldn't necessarily time it
1001. 38:09then some boys down in uh
1002. 38:11down in Southern Tennessee found out we
1003. 38:14were jumping off of it and they wanted
1004. 38:15to come up there and challenge us
1005. 38:17so
1006. 38:19I they wouldn't jump off at night
1007. 38:22but then it had these the top of the
1008. 38:25bridge was just the steel girders
1009. 38:28so then
1010. 38:29I climbed up the steel girders and
1011. 38:31jumped off and this boy from Tennessee
1012. 38:32said well if you'll do that I will he
1013. 38:34jumped off and broke his leg
1014. 38:37and then he sent some cousins up there
1015. 38:39like a couple weeks later
1016. 38:41and it got to be a contest but
1017. 38:44that's just adrenaline
1018. 38:46seeking adrenaline
1019. 38:48Tony what would you say is the most
1020. 38:50important lesson you've learned in all
1021. 38:52this
1022. 38:53how many you're 67. I'll be yeah I'll be
1023. 38:5668 September I think the most important
1024. 38:58lesson is
1025. 39:01you have to give your kids opportunities
1026. 39:05to mess up
1027. 39:07so they can protect themselves
1028. 39:11I think they have to be students of
1029. 39:13human behavior
1030. 39:15and by hanging around groups of men
1031. 39:19whether it was at my
1032. 39:21the back room of my dad's gambling
1033. 39:23establishment or
1034. 39:25in a room with seven or eight guides
1035. 39:28fishing guides cleaning fish
1036. 39:32and you have to be a good listener
1037. 39:34and I thank you you'll you'll figure
1038. 39:37things out I think these helicopter
1039. 39:39parents are doing a real disservice for
1040. 39:41their children and I know it's necessary
1041. 39:43today
1042. 39:44is your ability to figure out what to do
1043. 39:46in in tough situations at an early age
1044. 39:48is what saved your life yeah exactly
1045. 39:53all right Tony thank you so much for
1046. 39:55sharing your stories you're welcome it
1047. 39:56was a fascinating
1048. 39:58thank you very much