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John Berger / Ways of Seeing , Episode 2 (1972) — Transcript

by Margarett Kime · 4,125 words · 596 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

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0:02men dream of women women dream of
0:06themselves being dreamt of men look at
0:09women women watch themselves being
0:12looked at
0:17[Music]
0:45[Music]
0:47women constantly meet glances which act
0:50like mirrors reminding them of how they
0:52look or how they should know
0:55behind every glance is a judgment
0:58sometimes the glance they meet is their
1:01own reflected back from a real man
1:16[Music]
1:26[Music]
1:43[Music]
2:20a woman is always accompanied except
2:22when quite alone perhaps even then by
2:26her own image of herself while she is
2:28walking across a room or weeping at the
2:31death of her father she cannot avoid
2:34envisaging herself walking or weeping
2:36from earliest childhood she is taught
2:38and persuaded to survey herself
2:41continually she has to survey everything
2:45she is and everything she does
2:46because how she appears to others and
2:48particularly how she appears to men is
2:50of crucial importance what is normally
2:53thought of as the success of her life
3:00[Music]
3:08a woman in the culture of privileged
3:17Europeans is first and foremost a sight
3:20to be looked at what kind of sight is
3:23revealed in the average European oil
3:26painting there were portraits of women
3:29as a reporter's of men but in one
3:31category of painting women were the
3:32principal ever occurring subject that
3:36category was the nude in the nudes of
3:39European painting we can discover some
3:41of the criteria and conventions by which
3:44women were judged we can see how women
3:46was seen what then is a nude
3:56in his book on the nude Kenneth Clark
3:59says that being naked is simply being
4:02without clothes the nude according to
4:06him is a form of art I would put it
4:11differently to be naked is to be oneself
4:15to be nude is to be seen naked by others
4:18and yet not recognized for oneself a
4:21nude has to be seen as an object in
4:25order to be a nude in the European oil
4:30painting nakedness is not taken for
4:32granted as in archaic art nakedness is a
4:36sight for those who are dressed that is
4:38why manna is painting which really marks
4:40the end of the period I'm considering is
4:42so profound the comment on all the works
4:44which preceded it the story begins with
4:48the story of Adam and Eve as told in
4:50Genesis and when the woman saw that the
4:54tree was good for food and it was a
4:56delight to the eyes and that the tree
4:58was to be desired to make one wise she
5:00took of the fruit thereof and did eat
5:02and she gave also unto her husband with
5:05her and he did eat and the eyes of them
5:08both were opened and they knew that they
5:10were naked and the Lord God called unto
5:13the man and said unto Him where art thou
5:15and he said I heard thy voice in the
5:18garden and I was afraid because I was
5:20naked and I hid myself under the woman
5:23God said I will greatly multiply thy
5:26sorrow and thy conception in sorrow thou
5:29shalt bring forth children and thy
5:31desire shall be to thy husband and he
5:33shall rule over thee two things are
5:39striking about this story they become
5:42aware of being naked because as a result
5:45of eating the Apple each sees the other
5:48differently nakedness is created in the
5:51mind of the beholder
5:53the second striking fact is that the
5:56woman is blamed and is punished by being
5:59made subservient to the man in relation
6:02to the woman the man becomes the agent
6:04of God
6:07in medieval art the story is often
6:09illustrated seen following seen as in a
6:12strip cartoon during the Renaissance the
6:16narrative sequence disappears and the
6:19single moment which is nadir always
6:21depicted is the moment of shame the
6:25couple wear fig leaves or make a modest
6:28gesture with their hands but now their
6:31shame is not so much in relation to one
6:33another as to the spectator it is the
6:35spectators looking which shames them
6:39later as painting became more secular
6:42many other subjects offered the
6:44opportunity of painting nudes but always
6:47in the European tradition the nude
6:49implies an awareness of being seen by
6:53the spectator they are not naked as they
6:57are they are naked as you see them
7:08often as with a favorite subject of
7:11Susana and the elders this is the actual
7:13theme of the picture we join the elders
7:16to spy on her she looks back at us
7:22looking at her sometimes the woman
7:26Susana looks at herself in a mirror
7:29picturing to herself how men see her she
7:33sees herself first and foremost as a
7:36sight which means a sight for men
7:39thus the Miller became a symbol of the
7:42vanity of women yet the male hypocrisy
7:45in this is blatant you paint a naked
7:48woman because you enjoy looking at her
7:50you put a mirror in her hand and you
7:54call the painting vanity thus morally
7:57condemning the woman whose nakedness you
7:59have depicted for your own pleasure and
8:01thus incidentally repeating the biblical
8:04example by blaming the woman the
8:08judgment of Paris was another favorite
8:10mythological subject with the same in
8:12written idea of men looking at naked
8:14women and judging them Paris Awards the
8:18Apple to the woman he finds most
8:20beautiful beauty in this context is
8:23bound to become competitive the judgment
8:26of Paris is transformed into the beauty
8:29contest aesthetics when applied to women
8:32are not as disinterested as the word
8:35Beauty might suggest I don't want to
8:41deny the crucial part that seeing plays
8:44in sexuality but there's a great
8:46difference between being seen as oneself
8:48naked or seeing another in that way and
8:50a body being put on display to be naked
8:55is to be without disguise to be on
8:58display is to have the surface of one's
9:01own skin the hairs of one's own body
9:03turned into a disguise a disguise which
9:07cannot be discarded amongst the tens of
9:11thousands of European oil paintings of
9:12nudes there are perhaps twenty or thirty
9:15exceptions paintings in which the artist
9:18has seen the woman revealed as herself
9:21this Rubens this Rembrandt
9:30this George de la tour these paintings
9:35are as personal as love to hymns and
9:37their character is quite distinctive
9:40most nudes in oil paintings have been
9:43lined up by their painters for the
9:45pleasure of the male spectator owner who
9:48will assess and judge them as sites
9:52their nudity is another form of dress
9:55they are condemned to never be naked
9:58with their clothes off they are as
10:01formal as with their clothes on those
10:05who are not judged beautiful are not
10:08beautiful
10:09those who are are given the prize the
10:13prize is to be owned that is to say to
10:16be available charles ii commissioned
10:20this secret painting from laylee it's
10:23like hundreds of others it might be
10:25Venus and Cupid but in fact it was a
10:28portrait of one of his mistresses nell
10:30gwyn it shows how passively looking at
10:32the spectator staring at her naked her
10:37nakedness is not an expression of her
10:39own feelings it is only a sign of her
10:43submission to his demand the painting
10:48when he shows it to others demonstrates
10:50this submission his guests envied him by
10:54contrast in another tradition nakedness
10:57is a celebration of active sexual love
11:00as between two people the woman as
11:02active as the man the actions of each
11:06absorbed the other in oil painting the
11:11second person or the second person who
11:14matters is the stranger looking at the
11:16picture compare the expression of these
11:19two women one the model for what is
11:23considered a masterpiece by Aang and the
11:26other a nil paid model for a photograph
11:28in a girly magazine or these two
11:34just the expression the look what do you
11:38see it seems to me that in each pair the
11:42expression is remarkably similar and
11:44that it is an expression of responding
11:46with calculated charm to the man whom
11:49she knows is looking at her although she
11:51doesn't know him it is true that
11:54sometimes a painting includes a male
11:56lover but the woman's attention is very
11:59rarely directed towards him she looks
12:02away from him or she looks out of the
12:04picture towards he who considers himself
12:06a true lover the spectator owner this
12:11painting was sent as a present from the
12:13Grand Duke of lanced the King of France
12:15the boy kneeling on the cushion and
12:17kissing the woman is Cupid she's Venus
12:19but the way her body is arranged has
12:22nothing to do with that kissing her body
12:25is arranged in the way it is to display
12:27it to the man looking at the picture the
12:30picture is made to appeal to his
12:32sexuality it has nothing to do with her
12:35sexuality the convention of not painting
12:38the hair on a woman's body helps towards
12:40the same end hair is associated with
12:42sexual par with passion the woman sex or
12:45passion needs to be minimized so that
12:48the spectator may feel that he has the
12:50monopoly of such passion there were
12:53paintings which depicted male lovers
12:55sees that exist but they were mostly
12:57private semi-pro no graphic pictures in
13:00most paintings which were painted to be
13:02seen rather than hidden the only rival
13:05to the male spectator is a cupid and how
13:09extraordinary it is that the pictorial
13:11symbol of passion was a small boy for a
13:15similar reason women in the European art
13:17of the oil painting are seldom shown
13:20dancing they have to be shown language
13:22exhibiting a minimum energy they are
13:26there to feed an appetite not to have
13:28any of their own the appetite was
13:32theoretically gargantuan
13:36the absurdity of this male flattery
13:39although it was not seen as absurd then
13:41reached its peak in the public academic
13:44art of the 19th century
13:46prime ministers discussed under
13:48paintings like this when one of them
13:50felt he had been outwitted he looked up
13:53for consolation the nude in European oil
13:58painting is usually presented as an
14:00ideal subject it is said to be an
14:03expression of the European humanists to
14:05it
14:06I don't want to reject entirely the
14:08truth of this but I've tried to add to
14:11it starting off from a different
14:12viewpoint dealer who believed in the
14:16ideal nude thought that this ideal could
14:20be constructed by taking the shoulders
14:22of one body the hands of another the
14:25breasts of another and so on was this
14:28humanist idealism or was it the result
14:32of an indifference to who any one person
14:34really was do these paintings celebrate
14:38as we're normally taught the women
14:41within them or the male wire is their
14:46sexuality within the frame or in front
14:50of it I showed the program as you have
14:54seen it up till now to five women it
14:57began to seem absurd that the only
14:58images you were seeing were of women
15:00silent mute so I showed it to them and
15:04asked them to comment to comment not so
15:06much on the program but rather on the
15:07questions raised by it above all on the
15:10question of how men see women or have
15:12seen them in the past and how this
15:14influences the way women see themselves
15:16today we have an image of course we all
15:19have an image of ourselves and it's a
15:21visual image but I wonder how much this
15:25sort of classical European painting has
15:29shaped that image in my own case I find
15:31it quite impossible when I look at the
15:33paintings that you show in your film I
15:35can't take them seriously I cannot
15:37identify with them because they are so
15:39immensely exaggerated always you know
15:41they fasten onto some secondary sexual
15:44characteristics
15:47Bres sort of great big bee sting bottoms
15:51you know and those huge things like that
15:53and they just aren't real whereas with
15:55photographs you you can you can feel
15:59that is potentially that's possibly me
16:00although it probably isn't but these
16:04these nearly all the paintings you have
16:06shown are what is called idealized and
16:11therefore they are to me very unreal in
16:15connection with with any deep down image
16:18that I might have of myself and in
16:20connection with any deep down pleasure
16:22that I might have in looking at another
16:25female body they don't give me that
16:27again pleasure at all can admire them as
16:30painting but they are they don't mean
16:33human beings to me the image that I
16:36compare myself with is the photograph
16:38because it's with photographs that I've
16:41been encouraged to think of myself in
16:43this way it is essentially advertising
16:45for me that's contributed to this and
16:47consequently I find it extremely
16:49interesting to go back and think of
16:51nudes in this way because I've never
16:53done sit but having seen the film I have
16:55no doubt that the same thing applies and
16:58do you find that the new it's in
17:01painting under the other in the same way
17:02yes well you can't get any information
17:06from it it's no guide towards
17:11information is lacking
17:13oh well activity you know dynamism
17:16anything it is how someone sees you and
17:19that's all it's something laid upon you
17:21I'm glad you showed them any picture
17:24because I always find is extremely
17:27shocking and because the men addressed
17:30and I love women are naked and this
17:32seems to me sum up the whole situation
17:33it's a humiliating position and these
17:36women are aware of being humiliated and
17:39I think this is part of the whole scheme
17:40of things I mean I think most people
17:42have had and some station in life it's
17:44all nightmares about running sort of
17:46speaks with nothing
17:47in everybody else's list and this seems
17:50to me one element in the pictures a very
17:53interesting thing you said in the film
17:54was about how nudity was really a kind
17:59of disguise it wasn't the real person
18:02themselves and free but it was just
18:05another garment they were wearing and
18:07worse than a garment in the sense
18:08because something that you can't take
18:10off this comes I think from nudity being
18:14combined with a pose and that's
18:16inevitable if you're going to have a
18:18painting of a model in a way I think
18:25that we're always dressing we're always
18:28dressing up for a part always putting on
18:32a uniform of one kind or another and I
18:34think women do this almost more than men
18:35men have only begun doing it fairly
18:37recently women are always dressing to
18:40show the kind of character that they
18:42want to represent the mother the working
18:45woman the pretty young chick and nudity
18:49is a uniform in a way for I'm ready now
18:54for sexual pleasure you see and so it
18:57doesn't you you can't come you can't
19:00identify being nude with being free I've
19:03only just recently read that book he's
19:0612 dull which describes some way in
19:09which a woman is reduced for the sexual
19:12pleasure of the man she's in love with
19:13to a complete object and what struck me
19:15in all that book as the most impressive
19:18image was the fact that she was told
19:21that she was never to touch her own
19:24breasts to entirely close her mouth or
19:26too close or to put her legs together
19:29and so the whole point about her stance
19:32all the time was it she was available
19:33and this the sense of being available
19:36the sense of waiting for other people is
19:39a very antithesis of action and it you
19:42know just like the whole the the Brook
19:45Street Bureau advertisement Tony hasn't
19:47rung you know he's three minutes late
19:48and ringing and you feel this whole
19:50situation the number women you talk to
19:52who say I stay in so many nights a week
19:54waiting for somebody to ring that the
19:56the concept of availability implies
19:59passivity
20:00because if you're simply waiting for
20:01somebody else to act then you contact
20:02yourself yes it's it's like um you will
20:06awake when a man taps you you know that
20:11but really it's an excuse to get
20:15yourself going I think I'm gonna - I
20:20know they're waiting too long yes yes
20:25could I say something there but
20:27narcissism I think that both men and
20:30women are narcissistic but in different
20:32senses and I think that one in sometimes
20:37I have the impression that men and women
20:39are tremendously narcissistic and cut
20:42off from each other by their images of
20:44themselves but that whereas a woman's
20:46image of herself is derived directly
20:50from other people the mirror you're
20:52talking about a man's image of himself
20:54is derived from the world that is it's
20:58the world that gives him back his image
21:00because he acts in it and you know women
21:04are drawn to him as a source a central
21:07activity and as a source of worth I mean
21:11since he is in the world the fact that
21:13he values her is important and so
21:17because they're sort of centers of
21:18narcissism are different and the woman's
21:22is essentially only related to the other
21:24person she's having much more passive
21:26position than years yes do you see do
21:32you see narcissism as essentially a and
21:35a negative or positive well I think
21:42that's very difficult to answer but in
21:44the sense that it is related to identity
21:48it's a positive phenomenon and it seems
21:51to me that what women envy and men a lot
21:53of the time is that they have a sense of
21:54their own identity that there is
21:56something in them which is important to
21:58them other than simply what other people
22:01think of them and I think that that
22:02thing is the product of their
22:05interaction with the world that is
22:07things and other people and it's sort of
22:09it's almost as if through this
22:11interaction they actually build up a
22:12store of worth a sense of themselves
22:18which which is a constant I mean it
22:20can't be lost but that because the woman
22:22doesn't go out and act she doesn't
22:24create the store she waits only for the
22:27present interaction with a man that and
22:30that can go that can just end at any
22:32moment pronounced way of stating a
22:51relationship but this other question
22:58which is contained within it as far as
23:02it doesn't idea is this sort of self
23:07delight of a person whether it's a man
23:10or woman in life in what they're doing
23:15in their relationships with men or women
23:19and it's a thing that matters
23:23tremendously and it's not only a kind of
23:27inner thing I quit you live but it's a
23:31very outer thing by which you gain
23:35relationships with your own context in
23:39the world that you can't gain any other
23:41way that it's when you have somehow been
23:46made some conscious of yourself that you
23:50easily naturally sort of compulsively go
23:54out to whatever is going on around you
23:57now we're not a child
23:59that tends northern with people to be
24:03other things doesn't it mountain streams
24:08wherever you go
24:11and then only
24:14as you make this kind of absolutely
24:21necessary contact with people but I do
24:26think that the sort of essence self
24:31denied as a kind of possible thing in
24:35the modern world and something that
24:37fewer women have the men and won't a
24:40master is the power the compulsion not
24:45the power the compulsion to make contact
24:50with the world as you are living in it
24:52when I say that I don't just mean the
24:54people next door are your friends I
24:56simply mean what is going on I'm not so
25:02sure about the delight I think it's a
25:04very double-edged thing I know as I
25:08suppose I've always known but I became
25:09aware of it then his film I have never
25:11consciously looked at myself in the
25:13mirror and seen myself as I am I always
25:16see the image that I want I know and my
25:19children notice it that if I make up my
25:21face I put on a certain expression if I
25:23from adolescence on if I've seen myself
25:26naked in the mirror I have not thought
25:28of myself naked I have thought of myself
25:29as a nude and I think this comes very
25:32largely from having being trailed around
25:34all the major art galleries in
25:35adolescence you know this is culture
25:37this is beauty the capital B and of
25:41course up to a point from advertising to
25:43but much more the painting thing that
25:46you use you think the female body is
25:50beautiful I am a beautiful object if not
25:52I have to do something about it and
25:55therefore the painful part of the
25:57narcissistic thing is I think the
25:59feeling of inadequacy now this business
26:03of always posing in a mirror I think one
26:06does absolutely automatically and the
26:08result is that if you actually catch
26:10yourself in a mirror by chance
26:13that's not deliberately because you're
26:15getting dressed or something I've had a
26:16bath but because there's one in the
26:18street we would catch yourself in a shop
26:21window it's a tremendous shock because
26:23you suddenly see yourself as you are
26:24which is windblown untidy badly
26:27just tired and so on you don't see the
26:30pose at all and I think this is what
26:32happens to women that they're always
26:34trying to measure up to this erotic
26:36image that is projected that there are
26:40some paintings and I think at this
26:42moment in particular of one painting
26:44well there's a woman who is wearing a
26:46garment she's not nude but it is a
26:48garment so loose so comfortable so easy
26:53and it's my idea very much of what a
27:00picture of a woman might be like it I
27:02think it's actually before your period
27:04almost it's so long ago I mean zips by
27:06Lorenzetti it comes in the good and bad
27:08government it's a fresco it's very very
27:11old you know and it is a picture of a
27:13woman who is supposed to represent peace
27:15it's quite extraordinary but she could
27:17be one of the liberators or trying to be
27:20liberated young women today she is a
27:23tease she is relaxed she is not playing
27:26any part at all she is able to combine
27:31pleasure with thoughts and with dreaming
27:35and she's she might spring into action
27:38at any moment
27:39and I think for me she has much much
27:43more to do with with with nakedness with
27:47oneself with the truth about oneself
27:50than any number of nudes as I've ever
27:51seen
27:55[Music]
28:03and the third part of ways of seeing is
28:06here at the same time tomorrow next
28:08tonight Andrew Graham Dixon is at the
28:10Tate Modern for an exhibition by max
28:12Beckman
28:14[Music]
28:26in ting we can discover some of the
28:29criteria and conventions by which women
28:32were judged we can see how women was
28:34seen what then is a nude
28:44in his book on the nude Kenneth Clark
28:47says that being naked is simply being
28:50without clothes the nude according to
28:53him is a form of art I would put it
28:58differently to be naked is to be oneself
29:02to be nude is to be seen naked by others
29:06and yet not recognized for oneself a
29:09nude has to be seen as an object in
29:13order to be a nude in the European oil
29:17painting nakedness is not taken for
29:19granted men dream of women women dream
29:26of themselves being dreamt of men look
29:30at women women watch themselves being
29:32looked at
29:38[Music]
30:06[Music]
30:08women constantly meet glances which act
30:11like mirrors reminding them of how they
30:13look or how they should know
30:45a woman is always a company to accept
30:48when quite alone perhaps even then by
30:51her own image of herself while she is
30:54walking across a room or weeping at the
30:56death of her father she cannot avoid
30:59envisaging herself walking or weeping
31:02from earliest childhood she is taught
31:04and persuaded to survey herself
31:06continually she has to survey everything
31:10she is and everything she does
31:12because how she appears to others and
31:14particularly how she appears to men is
31:16of crucial importance what is normally
31:19thought of as the success of her life
31:26[Music]
31:35a woman in the culture of privileged
31:43Europeans is first and foremost a sight
31:46to be looked at what kind of sight is
31:49revealed in the average European oil
31:52painting there were portraits of women
31:54as a reporter's of men but in one
31:56category of painting women were the
31:58principal ever occurring subject that
32:02category was the nude in the nudes of
32:05European paper behind every glance is a
32:08judgment sometimes the glance they meet
32:11is their own reflected back from a real
32:14now
32:26[Music]
32:37[Music]
32:54[Music]

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