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John Alite on All the People He Shot & Killed Being an Enforcer for John Gotti (Full Interview) — Transcript

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0:05all right here we go we have John elite
0:08in the house
0:10former enforcer and hit man for the
0:13Gotti and Gambino crime family how is
0:19that a fair description of your former
0:21life yeah it's a fair description my
0:24formal life yes without a doubt okay so
0:27this is your first time here so let's go
0:29ahead and get into your whole story so
0:31your family's actually Albanian correct
0:35okay and I guess you're your grandfather
0:37came over yeah my grandfather came over
0:40initially yeah left the rest of the
0:41family in Albania okay and then your dad
0:45was actually born here as well as you
0:47know my dad was born in Albania and my
0:50grandfather went back a couple of times
0:52and then he eventually brought the whole
0:54family here got it got it so here you
0:58are you're growing up in this Albanian
0:59family and this was in Queens Queens
1:01yeah what happened Jamaica Avenue got it
1:05and growing up you had a fairly rough
1:07childhood it was I guess your dad raised
1:11you guys to be fighters at a very early
1:14age yeah you know because of the
1:17situation in Albania suppression and you
1:20know when he came to the city he grew up
1:21himself in the Lansing Rivington which
1:24was back then known as a big hub for
1:27gangsters like Vito Genovese and guys
1:29like that so he understood the street
1:31and he understood suffering so he wanted
1:33to make sure that me and my brother and
1:35some of my cousins can handle cells and
1:40your dad actually beat you quite a bit
1:42as at an early age he wasn't uh you know
1:45if these days it depends on what you say
1:47like growing up when he was hitting us
1:48it was a normal thing for families and
1:51parents to hit that kids so I had a
1:53close relation of my father I never
1:55looked at it as he was an abuser like
1:57you know these days they say their
1:58abuser if you slapped a hand so I just
2:01took it as my father discipline in me
2:03and rightfully so because look what
2:04happened to me so I don't think him
2:07trying to discipline me was anything
2:10then apparent you know loving it kid
2:12so yeah I didn't look at it that way
2:14yeah okay and I read your book and one
2:18of the things I found kind of
2:19interesting was in your household in
2:21your neighborhood not only was your dad
2:24hitting you but I guess your uncles
2:26we're allowed to hit you and your
2:27neighbors even were allowed to hit you
2:29well my neighbor across the street was
2:31Guido Russo and he was very good friends
2:34of butcher and he was a gambler like my
2:36dad and he and his wife Loretta were
2:39very close to us they were almost like
2:40an aunt and uncle to us and so if we did
2:42something wrong and he's seen it yeah he
2:44would discipline us also and you know
2:47this was normal for me growing up to be
2:50hit by neighbors by uncles and in that
2:54generation I think it was almost normal
2:56most of the households of my
2:57neighborhood anyway and according to
3:01your book your dad really didn't care
3:04whether you won or lost the fight just
3:05as long as you didn't back down yeah he
3:08didn't want me to be a coward actually
3:09so my biggest fear when I was a kid was
3:13facing my father but not facing one kid
3:17or five kids on the street he just
3:18wanted me to say I fought and didn't let
3:21anybody take advantage of me which I
3:23thought that as I got old I thought it
3:25was a good thing also I believed in what
3:27he believed in well here you are growing
3:31up in this in this household and you
3:35know the violence starts early on but in
3:39the beginning is just you know fists and
3:41slaps and stuff like that and at one
3:44point it actually starts to escalate
3:45into stabbings and baseball bats and so
3:49forth so at what point were weapons used
3:53in your first encounter well me
3:56personally using weapons my friends
3:58would the the the the situation in my
4:00life was everybody was violent for it
4:02between my uncles my father the people
4:05that do around gangsters and then my
4:06friends were all violent so I think I
4:08was a little behind the the the starting
4:12point of most of my friends so I think I
4:14watched a lot of my friends on the
4:15street using guns knives and and bats
4:18from 12 years on up believe it very
4:20young age these guys weren't Spofford
4:22and they were in rehabilitation places
4:25in an
4:26juvy and I actually was a little nice a
4:28kid a little slow behind a marker the
4:30rest of the guys but I guess the first
4:32time I I actually jumped in and used a
4:34bat or something like that was probably
4:36about 15 years old 16 even not all
4:38something like that okay
4:41so 15 16 years old you get into a fight
4:42and you pull out a baseball bat uh I
4:46don't know if it was just no it was
4:48never one on one thing pulling out of
4:49bat no so if it was pulling out of bat
4:51it was either group thing of guys
4:53fighting and you're using a bat more as
4:56a defense thing and and I learned to be
4:58very aggressive with it in other words
5:00if I want to pull a bat and the same
5:02later on in years if I'm gonna pull a
5:03knife or a gun I'm going to use it it
5:05wasn't just a pullet to scare somebody I
5:07didn't have that mentality I have that
5:09mentality be aggressive well the first
5:12time you hit some of the bat how did you
5:15react afterwards I was used to violent
5:18so blood never like you know me my
5:20brother talked about this all the time
5:21you know what three four years old well
5:23you know most kids when they're bleeding
5:25they're crying for their mullet we were
5:27just used to getting bloodied up I mean
5:28me my brother are still that way you
5:30know at this age we were aggressive with
5:34our mouths were aggressive what weapons
5:36were aggressive with each other
5:37we've hit each other with bottles bats
5:39through each other through windows I
5:41mean my brother threw me through a
5:42second-floor window so we're just used
5:44to it and then at the end of the day we
5:46end up making up hugging each other and
5:47say I love you I mean it's just a
5:48mentality were just a little
5:51dysfunctional but no that's life okay
5:55your brother threw you through a
5:57second-story window I landed on a roof
6:00he did try to grab my leg at the time to
6:02save me he didn't he wasn't looking to
6:04kill me and in return I hit him what a
6:06what a club it was actually a piece of
6:11wood from one of the trees I broke it
6:13over his ribs and I broke his rib so
6:15just uh we were just this is us got it
6:21okay so then around 17 you started
6:25getting into stabbing yeah about I guess
6:30around 16 somebody tried to shoot me a
6:33guy named patty antique and you know I
6:35was around the Rosie ah no family who
6:37was fat and
6:38Ruggiano was actually straightened out
6:40from in the early 50s by uh Albert
6:43Anastasia so when this guy tried to
6:46shoot me as a kid I went to Al button
6:48these guys and the son of Patty and
6:52Nehru Gianna went there now but they
6:53helped me out with the guy in so you
6:56know the violence started very young for
6:57me I understood the mob at this point
6:59pretty well okay and you got stabbed
7:02yourself I got stabbed up batted hit by
7:06a car
7:07piped I've been through a mill shot you
7:10know upper thigh years later but yeah
7:14okay but at 17 you got stabbed yeah 17 a
7:18little older than I think it was 18 or
7:19so something like that but yeah at a
7:21young age okay and you were the hospital
7:23for a while over that I was in and out
7:25at a hospital about three or four times
7:27that year over ah me being stabbed I was
7:30stabbed at the same time I got my jaw
7:32broke it broke my arm
7:34they were piping me a baton he also hit
7:36me with a call so yeah you know most
7:39people after they get stabbed they say
7:42okay
7:43I think I have had enough of this I'm
7:45gonna go do something else but you did
7:47not know my mentality again was not to
7:50be a quitter and to be aggressive so
7:52probably after about I was in intensive
7:55care on and off because I was having
7:56complications when I got up intensive
7:59care I just pulled all the tubes out I
8:02had a friend of mine mark Caputo that
8:04stayed with us picked me up and take me
8:06out a wheelchair we went out of side
8:08entrance and I went to go shoot one of
8:10the guys that stabbed me up so and then
8:13I almost died from pulling out those
8:15tubes and the doctor at the time
8:17obviously wasn't happy threatened me if
8:20I ever did that again he wouldn't bring
8:22me back into a hospital okay was that
8:25the first time you shot at somebody now
8:27at this point I'm already involved in in
8:30shootings with a either as a driver row
8:34of a guy that was shooting guys over the
8:37years I just kept shooting guys as
8:39things went on either for business or
8:41personal okay and you grew up around the
8:46Gambino crime family
8:47correct and I guess fat Andy who was a
8:51capital for the Gambino
8:52he ran the area that you lived in he was
8:55a boss in our neighborhood and at the
8:57same time just coincidentally my
8:59father's guy was Charlie Luciano who we
9:02call Blackie who was a Gambino made guy
9:05at the time from Jersey faction that my
9:07uncle and my father involved would so it
9:10happened to be the same crew and so I
9:12was around the Gambino family since I'm
9:15a baby through my parents of my father
9:18my uncle and then later on through
9:20Friday and in Russia on oh yeah I mean
9:22just to put in perspective according to
9:25two articles and so forth the Gambino
9:27crime family at the time was the
9:28wealthiest the most powerful crime
9:30syndicate in the world well you know as
9:33a kid you don't know that but you do
9:35know that you like and respect what
9:38you're seeing in the men that are around
9:40you as a kid you know I looked at him as
9:42my you know surrogate the fathers uncles
9:44and stuff like that and the Ruggiano
9:47family themselves were very good to me
9:51Albert and Anthony fine and the son and
9:53actually I have this nephew here with me
9:55today gene Burrell oh so you know this
9:57family has been around with my family
9:59since I'm baby and genes been around me
10:01since he was born and you know so it
10:03just carries on for generations I guess
10:05were when we brought down from
10:08generation to generation involved in in
10:10the street so initially you start a drug
10:14dealing and you started with the weed
10:17and it moved up to heroin I was more of
10:21a cocaine dealer but yeah the heroin
10:23because of Angela rogério and uh at the
10:27time DiGiorgio was a relative of Vicki
10:29Gotti senior John Gotti senior's wife
10:32and John Gotti asked Angela asked me to
10:35stop moving heroin on a small level
10:36compared to those guys but yeah I got
10:38into the heroin business okay were you
10:40affiliated with the Gambino's at this
10:42point once once you started drug-dealing
10:43oh yeah yeah I was always affiliated
10:45since I'm a kid yeah
10:48okay and well originally Carlo Gambino
10:53started the Gambino crime family he died
10:56of old age correct passed away at his
10:59house I believe and Paul Castellanos
11:03Castellana that's Paul Castellano
11:05Castellano sorry so Paul Castellano aka
11:09big Paul he took over as the boss and he
11:13was known as the Howard Hughes of the
11:15mob correct
11:16well why that name because he was a big
11:19money maker he was Carlos brother and
11:21Laura and a lot of people were against
11:23him becoming a boss because he wasn't a
11:26street guy you know per se he was a
11:29moneymaker not a what is owned by his
11:31own hand a tough guy old-school guy like
11:33Neel della Croce who was the underboss
11:36and people a lot of people bucked at me
11:39personally over history I thought it was
11:41a good decision money brings power and I
11:44think pauper a lot of power to the
11:45Gambino family because of the money did
11:49you have a relationship with them at all
11:50no I mean I know him but I did not
11:52realize I was too young I was just
11:54coming up when he became the boss and so
11:56I was a kid still you know back then it
11:59was more structure I think in a mob than
12:01there is today it was more you go to
12:03your your guy he was who your guy is
12:06Andy if I had to say anything past hello
12:09if I saw Paul or Neil that's all I get I
12:11mean you don't disrespect anybody
12:13especially at that young age or
12:14intimidated team and try to go to him
12:16but I knew better I was raised around a
12:18mob so I know if I had to say anything
12:20or even wish them something if somebody
12:22was born in their family or a wedding
12:24you still ask your guy which would be
12:26fat Andy yeah can I step up to him and
12:29say congratulations and you have to get
12:31your permission for us I mean some of
12:33that structure and some of the rules
12:36have changed over the years and I said
12:37this is what weakens the mob in my
12:39opinion okay so now you're affiliated
12:42with the Gambino crime family but you're
12:44not actually a made man no I can't be
12:46I'm all Banyan right but you start with
12:50a drug-dealing and at one point you
12:52build up to about a million dollars a
12:53month correct
12:55probably more I mean that's a
12:56conservative number and you know I got
12:58guys that work for me like Stevie Newell
13:00I shot and
13:01later on he was around with the Gottis
13:04and Dohrn some of this nonsense that
13:05went on and he says that I'm being too
13:07conservative with that number and this
13:09is a guy that worked from he was he said
13:11I think at the time he was one of my
13:13lower level guys and he was making 1520
13:15thousand a month so I think that number
13:18is conservative for what we were doing
13:19but for sure a million okay but a
13:23million that's just the gross how much
13:25were you bringing in a month in terms of
13:26profit no that's not the gross
13:30that's I'm talking that's profit yeah so
13:33and I think what multi millions per
13:35month and yeah I mean you know I got
13:37guys around me I have I don't know how
13:40many guys are ollie but I got a good 25
13:4130 guys at around me on a regular basis
13:44and these guys have guys around them who
13:46have guys around them so you know it's
13:48very hard to put a real number on what
13:50all these guys are making but you know
13:52we're running a major organization not
13:54just for myself but for the you know
13:56Gambino family okay now originally when
14:01you're getting involved with the
14:02Gambino's John Gotti senior is still
14:05alive but your relationship was more
14:09with John Gotti junior because you guys
14:10are more the same age well no not really
14:14I mean my day-to-day is to you know
14:18we're all given guys and the father
14:20would give me and Bobby Borriello at the
14:23time to John Gotti Jr so he's got to
14:26justify you know you're trying to
14:27justify certain guys in the life as
14:30tough guys as moneymakers and you got to
14:32give them a crew to have around them so
14:34yeah I was around staying with John
14:37Gotti Jr more as a protection thing for
14:39him justify him as a street guy and at
14:41the same time I'm answering to John
14:44Gotti senior and his brothers as far as
14:46what they would say is I'm directly with
14:48the regime meaning what the Gotti crew
14:50itself so one point big Paul and his
14:54bodyguard gets shot to death outside a
14:56sparks steakhouse which they say the
15:00order came from John Gotti well Tommy
15:03Bilotti is the the right-hand man to
15:05Paul Castellano also his driver who was
15:08one of the guys that at the time would
15:11be up for position to take over if
15:13something happened
15:14also he was kind of he was gonna have to
15:17go if Paul was gonna have to go if there
15:19was gonna be a move against Paul Tommy
15:21had to go also miss Tommy would have
15:23wretched buted what was planned against
15:25Paul so but John was one of the guys
15:28that obviously masterminded it to put
15:31himself in a position as boss yes who
15:35was the shooter was that ever uh yeah
15:38that's no yeah that's there's there's
15:40several guys there at the scene
15:42Johnny Cornelius names been popped up
15:45through different guys conversations
15:48Sammy Gravano obviously on the scene
15:50said that Johnny was one of the main
15:52shooters and from what I understood a
15:55couple guys that were there wanted a
15:57guns jammed then Johnny did the shooting
15:59on both Tommy and Paul he killed both of
16:01them there was other guys at the scene
16:04so Tony Roach Tony Ram Pina was one of
16:07the guys there Eddie lino so most of the
16:10guys that were the clothes in a faction
16:12of the Gottis were on the scene at that
16:14time during the shooting okay so it
16:17wasn't just one hit man it was a whole
16:18crew of guys came in and took him out
16:20yeah it said listen he wasn't leaving
16:22that area alive oh these guys knew they
16:24were gonna get killed so no matter what
16:27happened whether the police happened up
16:28on him that was gonna end that night
16:31right there on that next street corner
16:32in front us box
16:33I interviewed Michael Franzese correct
16:36and he said that after Paul got killed
16:40no one really shed a tear because a lot
16:43of people felt he was greedy and he was
16:45really sharing his money whatever it is
16:47that you're doing you have to be guarded
16:49on the street it's more serious because
16:51you offend somebody you do something
16:54wrong like Paul Castellano he didn't
16:56have a lot of people like them because
16:57they thought he was greedy he wasn't he
16:59didn't make people around him make money
17:01well you know you got to get different
17:04opinions of who like Paul who didn't and
17:07again no disrespect to Michael but
17:09Michael wasn't part of abogado with this
17:11far as the Gambino family so you had
17:15people that actually agreed with the
17:17head of Paul Castellano it within our
17:19family and then you had people that
17:21disagreed with it that kept silent
17:23because they didn't want to be hit also
17:24so you know maybe verbally some of the
17:27guys that Michael knew
17:28had a conversation with them and they
17:30thought Paul should get hit I know Sammy
17:32agreed with that hit that pole should
17:33get hit
17:34I never agree with that I you know
17:36personally don't think that was a good
17:38move out but not because of where we
17:40stand today but because of Paul
17:42Castellano was an intelligent man and
17:44anywhere in life money is power and Paul
17:48brought the most money into the Gambino
17:50family so by killing Paul you kill your
17:53pocket and by killing your pocket you
17:55kill you influence over the other
17:56families unions and so forth so it's in
17:59my opinion in retrospect I think guys
18:01would think better of hit and Paul again
18:03if it had if we went backwards in time
18:05right but there was ultimately no
18:07retaliation against John Gotti for that
18:09murder
18:09well that's know there was attempts at
18:14retaliation against John Gotti but not
18:15within our own family it came from
18:17Lucchese family with Anthony gas-pipe
18:19and Vic Amuso from the okz family and it
18:22came from the Genovese family at the
18:24time the chin Gigante and his guys and
18:27Bobby manna there was a lot of plots to
18:28kill a guardian some of our guys yes
18:31they did get killed after that hit Bobby
18:33Burrell was wrong Eddie lino was one
18:36guys were head after Frankie Chico was
18:38blown up in a car so there was
18:40retaliation from the other families okay
18:43I didn't know that so John Gotti is now
18:48the boss of the Gambino's and you talked
18:52about this in your book before John the
18:55Mafia was very quiet was very below the
18:59radar and then John comes in and he's
19:02flashy he's the Teflon Don he's all over
19:08the newspapers he's smiling and so forth
19:10did that bring a certain energy to the
19:12Gambino that wasn't the greatest
19:15you know we're quiet organization so
19:18we're supposed to be an on-the-ground
19:19organization people don't supposed to
19:21know who's made who wasn't made who's a
19:23boss wasn't on the boss who's a captain
19:26because all this brings notoriety to a
19:30crime family which brings law
19:31enforcement what brings undercover
19:33investigations which brings guys to flip
19:36and so on and it brings down the mob not
19:39just our family but wolf I family so
19:41obviously
19:42the public doesn't know that the public
19:45you know believed in a romance of the
19:47media and John Gotti the inner workings
19:50of the Mafia is no one was happy
19:53everybody is quiet about it and people
19:54say well why didn't anybody do anything
19:56about it well people did but in a mob
19:58you do it quietly on the ground and it
20:00was moves to be made to take kadhi out
20:03of that position and by doing so they
20:06started hitting guys around us that were
20:08powerful around Gotti and eventually God
20:10he was going to get hit but guys don't
20:12somebody's plots like Bobby manna were
20:14locked up caught on wiretaps and they
20:17never occurred well from what I
20:22understand you were put in a position to
20:24protect John Gotti Jr but you called him
20:28a spoiled brat as opposed to a gangster
20:31well yeah you know over the years I
20:34wasn't happy about some of his
20:36leadership I think he was put in a
20:39position like a lot of people all
20:40because the father was where they were
20:42doesn't have to be gangsters it could be
20:43in any position in the world you know
20:45you got fighters that come into the ring
20:47at the aren't fighters like their
20:49fathers like you know Joe Frazier I'll
20:51use as an example you know a son was a
20:53fighter but he was never at that he
20:55couldn't fill the shoes of his father
20:57John Gotti Jr felt fall from fill my
21:00shoes it was dad whether you like John
21:02Gotti senior as a leader or not he
21:04definitely was a street guy and he's
21:06definitely intelligent as far as coming
21:08to crime in the street and had a
21:10maneuver the publican went over his guys
21:13jr. on the other hand you know was a far
21:16cry from that so I didn't respect them
21:18now and I didn't respect the fact that
21:20he met with the FBI so that changed
21:23things for me dramatically well you have
21:28the drug dealing business but you you
21:29guys were involved in a lot of different
21:31stuff so at one point the New York Mets
21:34were actually gambling with you yeah
21:37there was a guy Joe De Luca who happened
21:39to know one of my friends guy peden was
21:42a drug dealer from the major drug
21:43dealing one of my major movers and he
21:47introduced me to Joe De Luca was the
21:48equipment manager for the New York Mets
21:50and Joe brought a couple of the New York
21:54Mets to us
21:55at the time there was a club called
21:57channel ad out in uh Long Island which
22:00we frequent all the time you pull up a
22:02boats the New York Mets the 86 Mets
22:03particularly hung out there Joe Klecko
22:06from the Jets gastrin oh these guys we
22:08all hung out there and we'd pull up with
22:11cigarette boats and you know at that
22:12time we're old it's the 80s money with
22:14cash was big back then yeah there was
22:16money all over and we would spend that
22:18they would spend it and they would get
22:21use us and we would use them wherever we
22:23could and one of the things they were
22:25doing with gambling with us through Joe
22:28get with right well Joseph DeLuca who's
22:31the assistant equipment manager for the
22:33for the Mets
22:34he went into thirty four thousand
22:36dollars of debt to you oh he went a lot
22:39more than that but at one time I guess
22:41that's one of the figures you got but he
22:43was gambling back in the 80s hundreds of
22:45thousands and he wasn't capable paying
22:48at the time the FBI I guess they got
22:51their hands on a check from Keith
22:53Hernandez and they posted I think of the
22:55New York Daily News at a post don't
22:57wanted a newspapers proof of funds that
23:00were coming from Keith Hernandez one of
23:03the guys at the time Dykstra was a big
23:05gambler a drinker and he got into some
23:08trouble I mean these guys were wild guys
23:10no different than us we were all young
23:11kids they were young kids at the time I
23:13like to Darryl Strawberry Gooden and I
23:17and I said this over the years I know
23:19Pete Rose in those days got caught
23:20gambling but the Mets never get bet
23:22against themselves not the guys that
23:24will gamble what else they actually bet
23:26with themselves so they bet all the
23:30teams but when they bet their games they
23:33bet with themselves they never bet
23:35against him I don't think that any these
23:36guys ever threw a game in my opinion
23:38okay so they weren't actually throwing
23:42games or anything of that sort
23:43not not why the reaction it was coming
23:45into my office no okay but they were
23:48bidding against other teams yeah they've
23:50got against all the teams and you know
23:52we we couldn't handle that action I was
23:54partners with John Gotti senior actually
23:55in the sports business with his partner
23:57which was Willie boy Johnson down on
23:59Avenue you Brooklyn so I would shed my
24:02action over I'd kick it over to Willie
24:04boy I have to go meet with Willie boy
24:05about the amount of money that's coming
24:08and I could
24:08for the money that was coming in in
24:10those days it would just which was you
24:13know hundreds of thousands a day
24:16sometimes so it was way out of my league
24:19at that time well you have the drug
24:23business you have the gambling business
24:26but it seems like you were most known
24:29for the shootings in the enforcement
24:31well when a guy wants to yeah because
24:34it's not like people thinking a mob you
24:36have a handful of shooters in each
24:37family and it's it's not like you know
24:40people are just under the belief because
24:42they watched I guess television movies
24:43they think everybody's a shoot or in a
24:45killer and trusted to do that work it's
24:47not really like that at all there's a
24:50couple of guys that looked at to take
24:53care of the grunt work on the street and
24:55and the enforcing so yeah I became known
24:59for what I did hurting guys not just
25:01shooting guys but hurting a lot of guys
25:04right you said that John got his seen
25:06senior never actually shot anybody
25:07himself he ordered people killed but he
25:09never actually picked up a gun a shot
25:11anybody well that's why I compared Paul
25:13Castellano with them like says Paul
25:14Castle I don't have more guys hit than
25:16John Gotti scene in his reign as a boss
25:18so unlike what people think maybe Paul
25:21came off more like a businessman and a
25:23gentleman but he was a dangerous boss
25:26John Garcia was a dangerous boss also I
25:29mean when you have access to an army of
25:32guys that grew up with you since that
25:35day young guys like John Gotti seen it
25:37did I happen to like Johnny connealy
25:39over the years I think he was a
25:41gentleman I thought he was fun to hang
25:42out with yet he was a very serious guy
25:44when you got access to guys like him it
25:48brings strength it brings palette in
25:49position so I look at a lot of these
25:53guys and I say everybody can't be who
25:55Johnny was who I became in general
25:58violence brings unnecessary attention to
26:02to a already criminal organization in
26:05general if there's a problem someone
26:08owes you money
26:09someone did you dirty or whatever you
26:12want to talk the situation out before it
26:14gets violent correct but at what point
26:16do you decide okay there's no more
26:19talking
26:20now I either have to shoot
26:21kill this guy or baseb about him well it
26:24depends on who's calling the orders on
26:25the shots but if it's me and you're
26:28gambling with me for say and you beat me
26:30the first week out for 27,000 and the
26:33second week you put in action with me
26:35again and you come up empty and you
26:37don't pay me anything there wasn't gonna
26:39be much talking I'm gonna send somebody
26:41to see you and say he just beat me last
26:43week now you came up empty you better
26:45have my money in a couple of days we're
26:47gonna hurt you you're gonna get hurt
26:48pretty quick actually for doing that now
26:50there's a guy that's gambling with me
26:51and he loses thirty thousand but he's
26:53been betting with me for six months he's
26:55always good with his money and then he
26:57comes up empty I sent somebody on tone
26:59listen you're a good guy he began with
27:01me a long time how much can you come up
27:03with upfront 5,000 say all right we're
27:05gonna work the rest off for you you can
27:07make payments until you clear it up
27:09don't bet with anybody else and we're
27:11good so each situation carries you know
27:14a different discipline depending on what
27:17happened exactly now if you got somebody
27:19Rob's my office and they hit my office
27:23and they robbed whatever is there well
27:24it's two dollars or 100,000 when we
27:27catch you we're gonna hurt you real bad
27:28and if you shot somebody who hurt
27:30somebody around us we're gonna kill you
27:31so this depends on the level and what
27:33happened exactly and how we're gonna
27:36handle it and then those are my those
27:39are my opinions on how I'll hand it but
27:41I have bosses if it's bad auntie Rosie a
27:43know he's gonna dictate to me I'm not
27:45just gonna do what I want he's gonna
27:47tell me what he wants done and I had a
27:49good relationship with Anthony and
27:50Albert Luciano and the father as a kid I
27:52could chime in and say well I think we
27:55should do this and he'll listen
27:57I mean depend on who I was talking to if
27:59they even want to let me talk at the
28:01time when I'm younger as I get older I
28:03start making my own decisions well you
28:07did the interview with value tainment
28:09and you went down this long laundry list
28:13of people that were shot or stabbed or
28:18baseball bat it or just hurt in general
28:22and I guess you're famous for the the
28:25yes I did well a statement yeah when I
28:28made that long list it really wasn't
28:30that long because I can spur it out some
28:31more for you
28:32and I was just giving everybody an idea
28:34when I say
28:35well did he really do this I can go on
28:37what names you know and I didn't talk
28:39about a lot of these names like Frankie
28:41geeky that we killed I was involved in a
28:43conspiracy or Louise DiBona was involved
28:45in that conspiracy or Michael Vignesh
28:49shot him in a chest
28:50Paul Forgione I shot him several times
28:52and I mean I could go with names I could
28:54keep going with guys I killed Frankie
28:56Burke and he killed two guys in Brooklyn
28:58so I mean that list can go on and on and
29:01on cuz this is what I did for you know a
29:03good 30 years I'm probably better than
29:06that well I actually wrote down a bunch
29:09of the names as you were kind of you
29:12know naming them off so for example
29:15apology you shot him in front of John
29:18Gotti senior's house and you didn't care
29:20there was in front of the house yeah do
29:23unit of dying he didn't die you know
29:25what happened at that time I'm young
29:26wall so I didn't understand it was a
29:28snowstorm so when I shot him he laid in
29:31the snow saved his life because it was
29:33about two foot of snow at that time I
29:35caught him in a snowstorm and I also was
29:37going to cut his throat in front of a
29:39house across street a sanitation worker
29:41came out screaming I pointed a gun at
29:43him that was empty at that time I
29:45emptied the clip trying to shoot this
29:46guy while he's running and I was going
29:48towards him to cut his throat and
29:50sanitation was screaming call the police
29:52and I end up turning back around and not
29:54finishing it I would have finished him
29:55there
29:57Georgie Grasso he said he shot him in
29:59the head yeah Georgie Grasso was one of
30:01the first guys we killed him and Johnny
30:03gathered try to hit me and also got his
30:06orders because he was talking about us
30:08being in a drug business he was to
30:09verbal you got one right yeah you
30:12ordered him dead Johnny greven
30:14Johnny jebediah ordered him dead from
30:16from prison first week I went in prior
30:19to going in I told him have a Christmas
30:21gift for me and I says wait till I'm in
30:23prison before you touch this guy and
30:25this is after I had a meeting with Gotti
30:27Jr well actually I didn't have a meeting
30:30he sent somebody to see me he was afraid
30:32to come see me he was on telephones and
30:35I laughed at him I said that this time
30:36he lost control I was asked to hit Gotti
30:40junior at that time his uncle and his
30:41brother-in-law so he didn't have no
30:43control of me in those times
30:46Bruce got robbed you're at him dead
30:48got her up was a guy again that shot
30:51Ronnie one time was a captain her
30:52family's enough for you in a bar that we
30:54controlled and he was trying to shake
30:56down the bar owner we asked him to step
30:58back he actually tried to shoot me -
30:59what a machine gun in he met what about
31:01five guys in a park that hit me and
31:03actually I'm friendly with the families
31:05one of the hits that I regret that we
31:06wanted I reached out I changed my life
31:10so I reached out to a lot of these guys
31:12and families and people that will talk
31:13to me and I indicate I got involved with
31:16second chance program with Tiffany and
31:18Paul new tell Michael Harry Oh Harris
31:22and you know when I'm looking at guys
31:24that are prison like gene burello just
31:26came home and a second chance program so
31:28these things are for me is in my past
31:30that's not who I am today I mean
31:32unfortunately he did them so I'm not
31:34gonna lie about him I got a discussing
31:36for all people understand this it's a
31:38life after you do these things and you
31:40can move forward if you want to change
31:41your life Mike Lavallee he shot him in
31:44the chest
31:45Michael Vigny I walked into a nightclub
31:47he called protocols to cops on the place
31:50that I had a drug business out of he
31:53slapped a doctor that was going to
31:55emergency call he wouldn't move his car
31:59out of his driveway so when I came into
32:02that bar that nightclub somebody touch
32:04one of my I had a scarf around my neck
32:05it happened to be Christine Belmont I
32:08got a good memory what names Christine
32:10Belmont was a friend of ours it was her
32:12brother I didn't know him I knocked them
32:13out his friend jumped in I hit him with
32:15a glass and then Michael in his mouth
32:16and I told him I was looking for you
32:18anyway shut your mouth or I'm gonna
32:20shoot you he said [ __ ] you I'd say I
32:22guess my friend Keith at the time give
32:24me the gun he gave me to go and I shot
32:25him in a chest I put a glass across his
32:27head after he was down Ricky Stratton
32:32Ricky Stratton I hit him on Interborough
32:35Parkway Jackie Robinson Parkway yeah he
32:38was with those guys what Bruce got her
32:40up to those guys trying to hit me I
32:41caught him coming out of house actually
32:44his brother Michael Scranton Ritchie
32:46Langston these guys were all guys that
32:48I'm friends with now and helped me to
32:50change my life and unfortunately this is
32:53some of the things that we did and these
32:55guys understand that they lived the life
32:57like I did Nicky Pasquale shot him five
33:01times that was four
33:02Nikki Pasquale was a guy that was around
33:04me running an after-hours he's Albanian
33:06an Italian he worked for a bread Union
33:09for the Westside for a guy named Ross
33:10Genovese family captain and I paid off a
33:14cop sixty thousand got shot my after
33:16hours he never gave the guy two money he
33:19went to God he told God he was gonna
33:20help him I came home from I was in
33:22prison on a short stint I came home I
33:25got a gun from Charles Koenig and went
33:27to his house talked to him he opened his
33:30mouth a little slick with me this is a
33:32guy that's around me I guess God he gave
33:34him what they call Gorilla Biscuits
33:36gave him the confidence to think that he
33:38doesn't have to answer to me anymore and
33:40I guess he found out he does I shot him
33:42four or five times
33:44Mike pip you shot him Mike Pitt by shot
33:47I think three times and two of his
33:48friends they were running and they
33:50robbed a drug spot on 116th Street
33:52hundred First Avenue I had a guy that
33:55was driving for me that was one of my
33:57drug guys and another nice guy Nicky
33:59happened to being a car in the backseat
34:01I said let me step out of the car we
34:02were going to a nightclub called Metro
34:04722 Ruger 50 shot banana clip in the car
34:08I pulled it out of the pillowcase I got
34:10on one knee pulled the scope out and
34:12they were about a half a block running
34:13and I started shooting him they said I
34:16missed them I said give it 10 seconds
34:18they got adrenaline they'll fall and one
34:20by one they started falling so yeah I
34:22hit three guys then
34:23Vito goes oh you had him shot but I
34:26guess you try to have you killed like
34:27eight times
34:28Vito Godzone those guys I'm friends with
34:30Frankie for in dello any I forget the
34:35other guy's name but yeah these guys
34:37were on America's Most Wanted they they
34:40killed about six seven guys they were
34:42guys that's where were against the
34:44Gottis at that time they shot one of
34:46Angelo Ruggiero sons so he was going to
34:49go eventually he challenged us and he
34:52challenged the Gotti regime at that time
34:54and we had him shot and then I walked
34:57into a nightclub that he controlled
34:58called kickers on Metropolitan Avenue I
35:01shot four guys there more in the stomach
35:03I think the other guy in the hip and the
35:05arm and the other two guys I shot over
35:07the unionizing bounces and looking for
35:10Vito Gazza
35:12Sal noonas brother you shot him in front
35:14of the bar
35:15child Sal no dough he's again
35:18it's his brother-in-law on one of his
35:20friends had a problem with Joel Kane at
35:22the time Joe Kane was around me he
35:24called me up he says that he can't leave
35:26the ball they said they're gonna kill
35:27him he got into an argument I walked in
35:29shot the guy on the dance floor I walked
35:31out and I went by myself a lot of stuff
35:34I go by myself and as I'm walking out a
35:37couple guys were chasing me I left my
35:39car so they wouldn't get a plate and I
35:41told the guy stop following me he was
35:42with another guy and it was a third guy
35:44behind him I said you stupid I just shot
35:46a guy who think I gotta shoot you and he
35:48kept following me so I turn around shot
35:49him a couple times he shot two guys for
35:53a Michael Catapano
35:54Michael Carey pal was getting baseball
35:56batted on by mondello's on between 85th
35:59Street and Forest Park I happened to be
36:01driving by and he's a good friend of my
36:03still a good friend of mine tough guy
36:05used to fight all the time and he was
36:08fighting the guys they pulled it back
36:09they were baseball bat I pulled over
36:11seeing him in a shot both guys I guess
36:15you shot two guys for showing your
36:16property shot three guys on my property
36:20somebody questioned that shooting I
36:22figured oh but it doesn't matter daddy
36:24no Fanelli was there call Monroe and I
36:26give you these illegitimate guys that
36:27were part of cleaning up from they get
36:29rid of guns
36:30rocky Fanelli the next morning they you
36:33know they try to hit me I had to own the
36:35ground fence company had bells that will
36:38go off on my property my ex-wife called
36:39me told me that there's several guys
36:41waiting for me I believe those five guys
36:43waiting for me I believe I definitely
36:45killed two maybe a third shot it out
36:47with them on a property and I had this
36:49guy Danny he was in 12:00 doll so he
36:51didn't interview about it talking about
36:53you know that shooting and these guys
36:56were all that around afterwards cleaning
36:57up the blood the mess and what went on
37:00there you stabbed a guy in the neck of a
37:03stomach in Fort Lauderdale and for a
37:05Nicky butch yeah these guys were I was
37:08with a girl named Dawn I worked at a
37:09club called shooters in Florida and the
37:11guy was one of these weight-lift of
37:13steroid guys and it was with two or
37:15three guys and I bought a dozen roses
37:17for a girl and she was going to
37:18Champaign the girl dawn and Dawn knows
37:21me so she knew what I was gonna do I
37:22went back to the bouncer I think
37:24whatever he was he looked like a bouncer
37:26he just got out of jail for a breast
37:28knock on a kid
37:29from behind oh yeah a small guy - this
37:32guy was huge it was 325 pound guy anyway
37:35I went back to him and I told next time
37:37you ever touches me I said I'm gonna
37:39kill him
37:39I said you better remember who you
37:41talking to and he mushed my face I said
37:44all right I came back I went to the bar
37:46I asked him for a knife they gave me a
37:48little lemon cotta I said no - butcher
37:51knife he said well it's in the kitchen
37:52I wanted to the kitchen got the butcher
37:54knife put it behind my back I walked
37:56back I said did I warn you and I you
37:58know he looked at me didn't know what I
37:59was gonna do I stabbed him I stabbed his
38:01friend and the police were at the front
38:05door at the they worked the the
38:07nightclub and they pinched me right
38:09there stripped me naked into it just on
38:11the way took all my clothes charged me I
38:13believe at the time was attempted murder
38:15and assault with a deadly weapon I'll
38:16and later on these guys dropped charges
38:19their lawyer knew my lawyer Richie
38:21Reebok my boy Richie ray buck at the
38:23time was Gotti senior's lawyer County
38:25scene you gave me him to defend me when
38:28they found out who I was and who I knew
38:30the one guy backed out of the the trial
38:34the other guy gave information saying
38:38that I was protecting myself from his
38:39front you baseball bat three bikers and
38:43stabbed one of them the place was called
38:46oh brother in 78 read Jamaica Avenue my
38:49friend Joey Mathis was an accountant
38:51regular guy he was in the ball with
38:53Kenny Nicol and they called me up at
38:55about 3:00 in the morning I was sleeping
38:57and they said three guys are here and we
38:59can't leave the ball they said they're
39:00gonna kill us I walked up and I told the
39:03guys let him come out of the boy told me
39:05you mind your business one guy wanted to
39:07call him I'm not sure I think he died
39:09I'm not sure I mean I told the story
39:10about him the other two guys I batted
39:13Kenny Nicole I batted by accident he
39:15came running up behind me and a week
39:18later they came looking for me - crew
39:20Bicas I went into a ball with Michael
39:21finiti he was about 16 at the time and I
39:24stabbed the UH the head guy at at
39:27motorcycle gang in the body me I guess
39:33the Gotti family said that you shot
39:34around 60 people during a trial they
39:37exaggerate you know and they want to
39:38make it
39:39and once that gonna run out and we went
39:41to the second I'm a serial killer the
39:43next second I didn't do much shooting I
39:45mean as you can see we can keep going
39:46with all the shooting I did and I
39:48remember names that's the problem when
39:50guys talk and lie
39:51I remember names locations witnesses
39:53Kenny Nicole's witness who's still alive
39:55with that baseball bat thing and there's
39:58three people I mean I baseball bat three
40:01people also in Princeton on Route one at
40:03a diner the Princeton Dinah the girl
40:05that was there Lisa matriz yeah that's
40:07her name she's around I mean these
40:08people around Anna life they're there
40:10when they're watching what I do I'm not
40:11what a group of guys and by myself so
40:15obviously I can handle myself pretty
40:17good because I'm not calling guys I'm
40:18not bringing guns and some of these
40:20things and I'm walking in the enemies
40:22bars by myself
40:24and doing what I had to do so the reason
40:27why I think it's important to stay these
40:29things because I need people that are in
40:31my position now in prison then maybe
40:34they'll come home they can change your
40:35life also and these things are things
40:37that we can't retract we did them we
40:40believed in the life we lived at that
40:42time but it's a new light for me well
40:45how many of these people that you shot
40:47or stabbed or baseball bat it actually
40:50died well Ricky Stratton dies I think
40:53three weeks or four weeks later but he
40:55was sick so they don't actually charge
40:57me at that murder TT I shot in the head
40:59he doesn't die from Scott erupts dead
41:04George Cross was dead Johnny Gavin's
41:06dead Louise DiBona was dead
41:09so that list goes on two guys I killed
41:12what Frankie Burke I don't know their
41:13name over the heroin business on an
41:15order from his father Jimmy Burke from
41:16prison they're dead three guys on my
41:19property definitely to it I'm a dead so
41:22you know when you when I'm doing what
41:25I'm doing for a living I didn't sit then
41:28count them really was important like I
41:29said during the trials I didn't have a
41:31computer I didn't care I don't care if I
41:33shot 30 or 60 or 17 you killed 20 or
41:36kill two I lived a you know a life at
41:39the time I believe it was the wrong life
41:41and there's nothing I can do about that
41:43unfortunately I was what I was I did
41:46what I did for a living but I didn't go
41:49out and target regular people in the
41:52public eye talking
41:53people in my life that were also in my
41:55life that were trying to kill me and and
41:57that's not excuse for someone who
41:59violence I committed but I can't retract
42:01it so I'm not gonna sugarcoat it either
42:03I mean would you consider yourself a
42:06serial killer
42:07no serial kill somebody just randomly
42:09kill somebody right I had a purpose
42:11behind the violence that we did it was
42:13either monetary or was retribution for
42:15what somebody did to our family Gambino
42:17family well somebody did something to
42:20you know a friend of mine like Joey
42:22Mathis said they three bikers that
42:24threatened to kill a guy that it's a
42:26regular guy he's an account he's in a
42:28bar drinking and you know they thought
42:30they were tough guys and I guess they
42:31found out differently well Sammy the
42:35bull was also part of the Gambino family
42:37correct were you two close
42:40not not particularly when I was when we
42:43were in the mob together not at all
42:44actually
42:45I said hello said goodbye like I said
42:47earlier you don't go up to step up to
42:49and on the ball so at the time he wasn't
42:51on the boss but a made guy without
42:52knowing him personally getting the
42:54permission from God he senior at one
42:56time I try to have a conversation with
42:57Sammy and got his senior dressed me down
42:59bed and I didn't understand at the time
43:01he didn't want me close to a guy that
43:03particularly that he thought maybe in
43:05the future he may kill even know he's
43:08his underboss becomes his on those
43:10people don't understand the treachery in
43:11our world so he didn't want me to be
43:13friendly with him he didn't like he
43:15wanted he didn't want me to like him he
43:16just wanted me to know him respect them
43:18but uh my loyalties supposed to be to
43:21the Gottis and keep a distance from so
43:23if that day comes where you ask me to
43:24pull a trigger on that man I all I won't
43:26hesitate
43:27well Sammy confessed in 19 murders who
43:33would you say is more violent you or
43:35Sammy uh by my own hand I'd say
43:39obviously I was more violent by my own
43:42hand but Sammy I think he said this in
43:46one of his interviews killing is easy
43:48and I agree with them if you're a killer
43:50like he is or I am it's easy
43:52the hard part is getting away with it
43:54right and you got to be intelligent to
43:55get away with any dumb B could pull a
43:57trigger and you're gonna get caught
43:59I never particularly got caught what a
44:00crime ever so I don't think and I've
44:02said this over and over again recently I
44:04never been caught with a gun or a boy
44:06on tape or video and audio I was good at
44:09what I did I got caught by everybody
44:11ratting on me so when they use that word
44:13rat or people use that word rat they
44:14better define what that word means
44:16because I never was caught with a crime
44:18when I was betrayed that I was finished
44:21with that life Sammy on the other hand
44:24was very intelligent guy a moneymaker
44:27yeah he was a gangster and he was a
44:29mobster he was both he was a thug and he
44:31was a businessman and I tried to carry
44:33myself the same way and certain guys
44:36taught me that I think Johnny Cornelia
44:37was one of them I had a big influence on
44:39me if he never went to prison I think
44:41things would have been different in a
44:42Gambino family and particularly with his
44:45own stepson that he adopted and and all
44:48of us we were betrayed by the leadership
44:50we were trade by Johnny's brother
44:52Charles who was a drug addict and had no
44:55position you know he had no business in
44:57the mall he was a junkie he had no
44:59business he didn't understand the mob
45:00and he was not mentally right so these
45:03are the decisions boy in the hierarchy
45:05in a Gambino family to put these guys in
45:07this position they didn't belong it
45:09well you had said that Sammy the bull
45:12wanted to kill John Gotti I guess John
45:14Gotti junior or senior dad sent me but
45:17here's a gun if Sammy the bull was a
45:19serial killer he would have killed John
45:22Gotti junior Friday or he would he would
45:24have had it done he didn't do it because
45:26he had respect for a he's just a kid
45:28he's a dummy I don't respect him he's a
45:30nonentity and he won't do that if he was
45:31gonna kill anybody who been John Gotti
45:33seen you and John Gotti seen you would
45:35have got killed if he came out of jail
45:36not just from Sammi from any of the five
45:39families everybody had it with him
45:41he just put everything on blast and
45:44that's not what the mobs about putting
45:45him on blast that's supposed to be look
45:47again where he said a quiet entity
45:50did you know chin Gigante no I didn't
45:53I'm no habla obviously my my ex uh my
45:58child's mother and my it's like son's
46:01moms and her family they're two of the
46:03uncles were captains in the Genovese
46:04family so I'm very familiar I had
46:06friends in the Genovese family I was
46:08involved in business we wanted a
46:10captains in the Genovese family so I had
46:12a you know listen in a mob world with
46:14different crews but we also aligned
46:16together inside what people think we're
46:18not trying to kill each other
46:19which one
46:20monie with each other so we're friendly
46:23with a lot of guys from the different
46:24crews and obviously over the years a lot
46:26of guys that was friendly what became
46:27bosses and of different crews and
46:29families that I was involved with one of
46:31them is Ronny Turchi from the
46:33Philadelphia mob was a concierge was
46:35very friendly with him he got killed his
46:37son was my friend back then still my
46:39friend today
46:40well did you see the movie the Irishman
46:42yeah yeah okay did you know Frank
46:46Sheeran at all no I knew ally Calabrese
46:50is one of the guys I hurt in prison that
46:52they talk about was around the one of
46:54the bosses captain Tommy from Cleveland
46:57so you know almost uh know each other
47:00one way or another we know of each other
47:02I didn't know him personally no what
47:05about Jimmy Hoffa no I don't know Jimmy
47:07Hoffa and I don't think anybody knows
47:09where Jimmy Hoffa is when I hear these
47:10stories that's exactly what they are
47:13stories nobody knows which is rebel I
47:15interviewed Michael Franzese and he said
47:18that the Irishman you knows and is a
47:20nice movie but really the premise of it
47:22is a lie
47:23he said the Frank Sheeran didn't kill
47:24Jimmy Hoffa I'll tell you this I saw the
47:27Irishman I don't know if you've seen it
47:29Scorsese's new film
47:30not yet okay you know it was good it
47:35wasn't epic it wasn't the Godfather it
47:37wasn't Goodfellas or I don't think it
47:39was in that level and I can tell you
47:42that the story was a complete lie
47:45there's no truth to the story yet
47:47certain little things that happened were
47:49you know but Sheeran did not kill Jimmy
47:52Hoffa I agree with them we don't know
47:56who killed Jimmy Hoffa right if they
47:58knew where Jimmy who killed Jimmy Hoffa
47:59there would be a with all the guys in a
48:01rat and snitch in over the years and
48:03they would have found the body nobody
48:05knows what happened to Jimmy Hoffa
48:06really and I agree with him the movie
48:09was a movie I didn't particularly care
48:11for the movie actually I thought it felt
48:14way short of where it should have been
48:16but it's entertainment I mean it's not
48:19real life you know there's also the
48:22story of the JFK assassination Michael
48:25Franzese talked about that how he felt
48:27the mob was involved in killing of JFK
48:29now you believe that the Mafia has
48:31something to do with JFK's murder
48:32yeah III believe that firmly because of
48:36what I was told and there's no reason
48:39for people to mislead a lie to me people
48:42is part of that life that had knowledge
48:44yeah
48:44did you know anything about that well
48:47everybody knows that Joe Kennedy was
48:49involved and he had business with the
48:51mob everybody knows that the mob was
48:52helped them John F Kennedy win the
48:55election with unions and vote and
48:57everybody knows that the Kennedys
48:59backstabbed everybody so do I think the
49:01mob was involved in that murder with the
49:03government and and together yes it was a
49:06different era and things work
49:08differently back then and things
49:10changing and evolved over the years and
49:12so corruption with his money
49:16this corruption at any level I mean the
49:19President Richard Nixon got impeached so
49:22you know when people are naive to say
49:24well he's this human beings are human
49:27beings and the root of evil is money
49:30right and then you read it in the Bible
49:32you read it in a Quran the Quran you
49:34read it anywhere and you live it and
49:36life experience tells you about the
49:39temptation of greed well you talked
49:44about being in and out of prison most of
49:45your adult life and you spent 18 years
49:48total in prison in and out approximately
49:51I mean I've been in a tie gentlemen
49:54whole life so you did three and a half
49:56years for a gun charge you ended up
50:00being in solitary for about seven years
50:03approximately you know my last bit I did
50:06between Brazil MCC Florida I never seen
50:11the odd so somebody says to you well did
50:13you go out to the yard I didn't see god
50:15I was in lockdown units for ten years
50:17and that was in Brazil I think he'd get
50:20out we got out once a month either naked
50:22or an or underwear with no shoes on
50:24rocks otherwise we'll lock down Florida
50:28they would give me on what they call
50:30diesel therapy from jail to jail they
50:34forced me into solitary confinement no
50:36commissary no radios no books no nothin
50:39every three days I was moved and at MCC
50:43later on when I come in over there I
50:45mean
50:46see for over four years lockdown also I
50:49get up on a roof a couple of times a
50:52week two or three times a week so yeah I
50:54never seen an actual yarder a
50:55penitentiary yard no it's done yes right
50:57a minute out yeah and I want to talk
51:00about that whole part because at one
51:02point you were you caught a RICO case
51:05correct and you decide to go on the run
51:08correct and you said you left behind
51:11millions of dollars in the process Craig
51:13how much cash did you have at that time
51:17well just alone I sent 780 thousand to a
51:21guy named Marco to Pinto
51:22I had it wired to him in Brazil he took
51:24it so there was 780 there I went for a
51:28million in lawyers so there's another
51:31million or whatever I spent three
51:33hundred fifty thousand what my partner
51:35fighting Mike Melton and Duke Lewis
51:37Mandel for robbing my parking company
51:40these guys was subpoenaed in I think our
51:43civil lawyer was about a half a million
51:46I went for a couple about three hundred
51:49thousand 250 actually with my Brazilian
51:51attorneys I hired private investigators
51:53between all of them I had different ones
51:56in New York I had an extradition lawyer
51:58here in the States
51:59I probably went for another 100 grand I
52:02left in a safe and my sister's house
52:05268,000 my sister Marie is my other
52:07sister left 165 I believe I gave my
52:11mother four hundred thousand before I
52:13left I had four hundred and twenty
52:16thousand buried on the ground I mean I
52:18could go on I had money all over the
52:20place I have people that owe me money
52:21now that I'll never see back I was
52:25wealthy I mean I had money to open up a
52:28nightclub I put a half a million in that
52:30and at a parking company that was worth
52:33about seventeen point six I won a
52:36million dollars in a lawsuit that the
52:38government stepped in in Florida stopped
52:39it
52:40Mike Melton this was my primary target
52:43with Duke Mandel and he got on
52:46deposition six times and lying and the
52:49case got stopped by the federal
52:51prosecutor didn't allow us to continue
52:53and we had to settle there was excellent
52:55ory evidence and a tape that was never
52:58brought out so I mean I'm
53:00banging numbers out real quick for you
53:03besides properties I bought cash that I
53:05lost and guys I lent money to that I
53:08never seen again and so I don't know I
53:11had millions all over the place I
53:13remember when I interviewed Michael
53:16Franzese and he was making tons of money
53:18as well he said that he had a private
53:20jet but he said the the best thing he
53:22ever owned during that time was a
53:24helicopter helicopter was the best it
53:28was absolutely the best it was we had a
53:29bell helicopter it was great you know at
53:33the time when we were picking up money
53:34from you know the various gas stations
53:38that we operated we had a lot of cash in
53:40the helicopter at the time the FBI could
53:43not follow me they just couldn't you
53:45know we would take off from Garden City
53:47or whether we had it at the time and go
53:49anywhere and we I know we drove them
53:50crazy because they told me we did
53:52afterwards they could never keep up with
53:53us so it was the greatest tool
53:55especially in a place like New York we
53:57didn't worry about traffic I used to
53:59teach some of the agents because when I
54:00was on trial in the Giuliani case I was
54:03living out in Long Island and I would
54:05fly in every day to Manhattan took me 18
54:08minutes you know and I would fly back so
54:11I didn't have to worry about traffic by
54:12getting there and so on and so forth so
54:14I used to tell the agents when we were
54:16leaving I said you know got a lot of
54:17traffic now I want you to jump in the
54:18helicopter with me I'll get you out
54:19there you know and we can't do that so I
54:22used to teach them about it but it's the
54:24it was the greatest tool if I miss
54:26anything I miss the helicopter were a
54:28lot more than a Learjet I didn't like
54:31flying so I wouldn't even buy one if I
54:32had the money but good for Mike because
54:34I didn't have that kind of money I
54:35didn't I mean I had money but not crazy
54:38money not enough to boy was the most
54:41extravagant purchase that you made it's
54:43right I didn't really uh I mean I bought
54:46my property at the time I don't know
54:49what it said on the books but I bought
54:50my property for about seven hundred
54:51thousand cash I gave it to the woman
54:54that was very friendly with me at the
54:56time and then I put it probably another
54:58six or seven hundred thousand into that
55:00property and you know again you're
55:02talking about the 80s so you know when
55:04you spend that a couple million dollars
55:05like I did on this stuff you're talking
55:07about you know thirty years later you
55:10know you could probably quadruple what
55:12I'm saying
55:13and in cash and same thing when we're
55:15talking about a million a month we're
55:16talking about in the 80s we're not
55:18talking about thirty five years later so
55:20I don't know I just listen I took 15
55:23guys to Mexico
55:24I met did things like that got sweets
55:27for twenty five hundred a night back in
55:28those days which I guess now there'd be
55:30ten grand I bought three cars like was
55:32nothing cash had come with a bag of cash
55:34bought a couple Benzes and the Toyota
55:37Sequoia and I just spent money champagne
55:40like every night like a fool not too
55:43bright but I did it and you can't
55:46retract it you know we make good money
55:48thinking he was never gonna end well you
55:51ultimately ended up in Brazil but before
55:54Brazil you were hopping around to a
55:56bunch of different countries like what
55:57countries were you were you jumping
55:58around it uh I start off in st. Lucia
56:01and I found my way to the Cayman Islands
56:04Cayman Islands to Cuba Cuba to
56:07Barranquilla Colombia where I had some
56:09connections with the cartel they helped
56:11me move from Barranquilla to medicine to
56:16medicine back to cali back to cali to
56:18the venezuelan army base I was safe if I
56:21was stayed there was in Caracas Valencia
56:23Santa Margherita was in Saint Andres
56:26Colombia I left there I went to Italy
56:28Greece France Spain Albania several
56:32times I left there was in West Africa I
56:35picked up about six passports they had
56:38two from Venezuela eight passports I was
56:40in Argentina Paraguay Uruguay I was all
56:45over the world I hit every island I was
56:47in Jamaica I had a connection and a
56:49friend that Jamaica girl that helped me
56:51out there so that list can go on I guess
56:55I went to Belgium
56:57amps of them Denmark Klaus was a good
57:00friend of mine it was independent
57:01centuries in Brazil that was in a drug
57:04business huge they caught him with two
57:06ships full of drugs was still very good
57:09friends he helped me get passports in
57:11Africa and I moved around I went to
57:14Germany Switzerland I've been all over
57:16the world
57:17I'm connections in most of these
57:18countries well you mentioned Colombia in
57:21the minion cartel were you dealing with
57:23Pablo Escobar no I didn't know dealings
57:25with Pablo Escobar actually I dealings
57:27what guys that were guys were gonna try
57:30to hit Pablo Escobar at that time ms-13
57:33guys guys that were involved with
57:35against him the guys that I was friendly
57:38with was Andre Lafleur a whose son was
57:42in prison with me now it's how I
57:44initially made that connection and he
57:47helped me later on to uh move and he
57:49helped me with you know some payoffs to
57:52get myself away from Interpol that
57:55happened to be chasing me around the
57:56world trying to get me in France they
58:00jumped the gun they stopped a train when
58:01I was there
58:02later on they get me in the streets of
58:04Copacabana right so you ended up in
58:06Brazil and Copacabana which I've been to
58:09a bunch of times I can see why you would
58:11end up there the women in cope are on a
58:14whole other level yeah it's a great life
58:17so people ask me what are you doing them
58:19so well you got mountains you got all
58:21the stores that you want you have girls
58:23you have the beaches you have the
58:24weather the money is
58:26three-two-one when you trade exchange
58:29money for a dollar bill so it was a good
58:33place to go so you end up in Brazil and
58:37how much time were you in Brazil and so
58:40you get caught uh I never stayed just in
58:42Brazil I moved around from Brazil to
58:44Argentina from different parts of Brazil
58:46I made hooks San Paulo I had relatives
58:48and but I'd say I was in Brazil about a
58:51year year and a half something like that
58:52a year okay so you were in Brazil for
58:56about a year and then the the police
59:01finally catch up to you and you get a
59:02lot well yeah I mean that's the fare of
59:05France first you know I mean I sent
59:06money from I had money set up from
59:08Canada bank accounts to Cuba Cuba to
59:11Brazil so I had some banking things set
59:13up from the end I had money sent to
59:15Albania through one of my cousin's what
59:16helped me and eventually I'd set
59:18apartments up in different locations so
59:20if I had to jump at one second like I
59:22was gonna do in Brazil I was going on 18
59:24I had the apartment set up so when I
59:26make my trips back and forth to
59:28different countries I was setting up
59:29apartments paying for him and then I was
59:31gonna leave actually next day but I get
59:33caught in Brasilia
59:36you end up doing two and a half years in
59:39a Brazilian prison and the prison you
59:41were in was gonna sit at one of the
59:43worst prisons in the world they actually
59:45suggested that the person gets shut down
59:47some years later well because they never
59:50let an advocate group in there because
59:52of the the treachery the the conditions
59:55the the killings the riots and the rapes
1:00:01of inmates by the gods themselves not
1:00:04even by other inmates so the guards were
1:00:07raping inmates kajol rape it was on CNN
1:00:09they were raping inmates they were
1:00:11killing inmates they were executing and
1:00:13guys sent the orders out on the street
1:00:16to kill gods in police from the street
1:00:19and what the Brazilian police started
1:00:23doing was killing gang members or they
1:00:24said so-called gang members in the
1:00:26street was all over CNN at the time they
1:00:28accused me of being involved in in
1:00:29starting some of these riots at the time
1:00:32accused me of something you know
1:00:34ordering things out from the jail with
1:00:36commander vanilla some guys I was hooked
1:00:39up with bosses of commander vanilla back
1:00:42in Brazil which was a noir faction there
1:00:44they also put me in prison where they
1:00:47were if the penitentiary was called
1:00:48Bango - so it was a different life I
1:00:52mean the warden I was in jail with
1:00:54originally killed two wounds we don't
1:00:56prove it but two of the wardens got
1:00:57killed one walking his child to school
1:01:00over the corruption that was going on so
1:01:01we were going back and forth at each
1:01:03other yeah okay and ultimately after two
1:01:07and a half years you get extradited back
1:01:08to the US and you were around 41 years
1:01:14old and you were facing 30 years which
1:01:17was essentially a life sentence not
1:01:20really actually you know I was facing
1:01:22life to off the country extradition laws
1:01:2430 years so I would've did about 25
1:01:27years okay not exactly life but you're
1:01:31getting out as a senior citizen correct
1:01:33if it didn't work out correct you were
1:01:36charged with murder drug dealing and
1:01:38assaults yeah I was charged when Rico
1:01:41was everything the whole gamut of crimes
1:01:42you can think of as in the RICO case oh
1:01:44yeah okay
1:01:47and around this time
1:01:49John Gotti junior was also being charged
1:01:52John Gotti junior was uh being charged
1:01:55he was on trial I believe at the time
1:01:57from one of a second one of his trials
1:02:01okay
1:02:02and fifty four people end up cooperating
1:02:05against you yes some famous names in
1:02:09there that were cooperating against me
1:02:10yeah well like who traffic county family
1:02:14their cousins Jason and John Riccardi
1:02:16they were my competition a parking
1:02:19business they own a company called
1:02:20seven-one-seven they were told to take
1:02:23the stand against me from a guy they
1:02:25were around Joel Curie was it captain a
1:02:27Gambino family he gave he got the order
1:02:30from John Gotti Jr that these guys it
1:02:32was okay for them to testify against me
1:02:34so I had guys that were being approved
1:02:36to testify against me Timmy Donovan
1:02:38another Mikey scars juniors right-hand
1:02:41man was a captain in his personal
1:02:43counsel yeah
1:02:44he was already cooperating junior
1:02:46already met with the United States
1:02:48government and a prophet session
1:02:50cooperating giving up names and
1:02:51discussing things on a sneek what you
1:02:54called 302s so these guys were all
1:02:56meeting and one by one they were given
1:02:58information against me testifying
1:03:00against me Robert lamendola Peterson
1:03:02Kara I can go on with that list to Kevin
1:03:04McMahon fat Tom Borghese made guy with
1:03:10the Gambino family also there's a list
1:03:12Joe Massino it was both sort of a nano
1:03:14family he came in so that list goes on
1:03:17well John Gotti Jr took uh I guess a
1:03:20proper agreement it's a right agreement
1:03:23you go in and you sit down with the
1:03:26government and you spill your guts and
1:03:28talk about anything you want to talk
1:03:30about any questions they ask you answer
1:03:32and it's called the queen of the day
1:03:35that means he can't get charged but he's
1:03:37given information against anybody and
1:03:38everybody that they ask about right and
1:03:43during his queen for the day agreement
1:03:45he ended up testifying about about a
1:03:48bunch of murderers that you allegedly
1:03:50did well he gives information we'll
1:03:52never know what happens behind those
1:03:54closed doors it's anything they're
1:03:55talking about is information against me
1:03:58against all the bosses against other
1:03:59street guys against other gang members
1:04:02just you know you're giving up
1:04:04information and when he was doing that
1:04:07I'm independent centuries in Brazil with
1:04:08Justin back and oh and Fratelli I mean I
1:04:11stay in touch with all the guys from
1:04:13Brazil from different countries they
1:04:15were all with me when we got the
1:04:16information that God he was given
1:04:18information
1:04:18Ronnie one-arm captain again being a
1:04:21family gave an opening statement also
1:04:23saying that he feared me that I'd kill
1:04:25him
1:04:26that means John Gotti junior partners in
1:04:28a drug business so this is all going on
1:04:30well minnows pens
1:04:33there's really not much to say it's a
1:04:35it's a documented things that were going
1:04:37on with the Gambino family all
1:04:39testifying against me well you ended up
1:04:43taking the stand in 2009
1:04:45advised John Gotti junior as well as
1:04:49Charles karne glia correct correct this
1:04:52is five years after that I got the
1:04:53information all these guys were
1:04:55betraying me I decided to walk away from
1:04:58the Gambino family obviously the
1:05:01betrayal of what they all were doing
1:05:02with to me and and did that part of my
1:05:05life I never kept quiet about that
1:05:07actually once I came in after the
1:05:09betrayal by all these guys I was open
1:05:12about what I was doing what I wanted to
1:05:14do and then I'm gonna walk away from a
1:05:17life I thought I believed in it for my
1:05:19whole life until the point of these guys
1:05:22doing what they just did all of them uh
1:05:24given information riding and forming and
1:05:27I never got caught with a crime and I
1:05:29said this is the end of it for me
1:05:31I don't know anybody anything after what
1:05:33they've all just done they just trying
1:05:34to give me a death sentence and I
1:05:37decided after leaving my family for uh I
1:05:40didn't see my family two of my kids for
1:05:42over a decade trying to believe in a
1:05:45life that didn't exist that it obviously
1:05:46this woke me up that this does not exist
1:05:49and I changed my life and from that day
1:05:53I haven't looked back I just continued
1:05:55trying to do the right thing with
1:05:56advocate for kids
1:05:59well you ultimately end up getting 10
1:06:01years on that case yeah on that case and
1:06:05you served how many I served whatever
1:06:07you serve on a 10 years so whatever that
1:06:10is 100 something months hundred
1:06:12I believe around a hundred 20 months on
1:06:15jet and ain't Monsen whatever it is okay
1:06:19well John Gotti junior did the did the
1:06:23proffer that the Queen for the day
1:06:24agreement and he he told on everybody
1:06:28you yourself took the stand though
1:06:30correct John Gotti junior would you
1:06:33consider what you did snitching
1:06:35definitely not I would sit what any
1:06:38attorney any gangster anybody explain to
1:06:41me how you can snitch on somebody's
1:06:43already ratting explain to me once I've
1:06:46been betrayed by the guys that I were
1:06:49protecting even though some of them of
1:06:50my enemies I wouldn't go against them
1:06:52until they all one by one started giving
1:06:54me up and I'm talking about
1:06:56I'm Albanian I'm living by their rules
1:06:58and they're not living by their own you
1:07:00got the guys in the Gambino family not
1:07:02just on my case on other cases are Alec
1:07:05you into positions of the Gambino family
1:07:07which in our law means you're routing
1:07:09that you admitted to being a captor I
1:07:11made guy or associate and also to
1:07:14admitting to the existence of the
1:07:15Gambino family which makes it easier for
1:07:17any prosecutor to give me a RICO case
1:07:20and then you have every major boss in
1:07:22every five families and a Philadelphia
1:07:24mob from Leonetti to al d'arco to Joe
1:07:28Messina they were all ratting so what am
1:07:31i let the Italian organization can't be
1:07:34loyal to themselves can't be loyal to me
1:07:36no I don't I don't think at all that I
1:07:38did anything wrong but what I always do
1:07:41i I go by my rules I stand on my feet
1:07:44and I don't need a group of people to
1:07:46say it's okay to do what I do I justify
1:07:48myself and by my rules so
1:07:50no I didn't betray anybody they betrayed
1:07:52me well with all the the shootings and
1:07:55killings that you've talked about not
1:07:57only in this interview but in Prior
1:07:59interviews people will sit back and say
1:08:02why only ten years for that many people
1:08:05killed it was very simple when I left
1:08:07this country I'm not facing life anymore
1:08:10I'm facing extradition law and the
1:08:12extradition law from Brazil and anybody
1:08:14didn't has an attorney or anybody's
1:08:15educated will see extradition law is
1:08:18thirty years so I'm facing 30 years
1:08:21where I'd do 25 years and I did 10 you
1:08:24see guys cleaning out for double murders
1:08:26and
1:08:26use an example Niki carazzo state and
1:08:28federal cases went on a run he got 10
1:08:30years he didn't cooperate he got what I
1:08:33got actually I got worse because I spent
1:08:35my time locked down so when people say
1:08:38that all you got guys if you look up
1:08:40that didn't cooperate you got 5 or 6
1:08:42years so for murders so it's not cut and
1:08:46dried because I didn't get caught with
1:08:48weapons I didn't get caught with bullets
1:08:50I didn't get caught on a tape I didn't
1:08:51get caught at crime scenes they didn't
1:08:53have that kind of evidence they only had
1:08:54guys like God had given him information
1:08:56well drop for County John Riccardi and
1:08:59Jason of CAUTI oh you know on Gotti's
1:09:01orders with Timmy Donovan on Gotti's
1:09:02orders well you know other guys some of
1:09:05them were friends of mine I walked away
1:09:06like and these guys had testified
1:09:08against me actually I talked that today
1:09:10because I got a different life
1:09:11I don't hold it against them I
1:09:12understand they didn't believe in a life
1:09:15for whatever their reasons oh I'm a
1:09:17mines pretty cut-and-dry what everybody
1:09:19did to me it's not like I got caught and
1:09:21I says okay me and you rob the bank and
1:09:23I'm gonna go tell on you that's not the
1:09:25case at all this has got changed and
1:09:27switched around through media and I
1:09:30don't know how it got switched around
1:09:32actually but if somebody brings me proof
1:09:34that I got caught with something I never
1:09:36got caught well you do your 10 years and
1:09:40you were offered to go into witness
1:09:43protection and again I said no why would
1:09:46I do that
1:09:46they should go into witness protection
1:09:47everyone's everything me up there's no
1:09:51reason for me I came back I mean Who I
1:09:53am I'm not running from anybody I didn't
1:09:55run in jail I didn't put myself in a
1:09:58WITSEC a WITSEC unit when I was in
1:10:01prison I stayed in regular prisons until
1:10:03they forced me
1:10:04but another snitch move I believe by
1:10:07gaudí because he says he was friends
1:10:09with the Latin Kings they sent a letter
1:10:10into the jail saying the Latin Kings
1:10:12wanted to hit me meanwhile one of my
1:10:14best friends in prison was one of the
1:10:15bosses named revenge he used to put my
1:10:17chair right front and front TV for me
1:10:19every day anybody who knew me knew I
1:10:21walked alone in jail I'd have no problem
1:10:23somebody tried to hit me I deal with but
1:10:25I don't like myself now never did still
1:10:28don't and I stand by what I did what I
1:10:31did was protect myself against the guys
1:10:34that were Italian that betrayed me that
1:10:37ratted they gave up
1:10:39the cosa nostra of rules and a meeting
1:10:42with government and give it information
1:10:43so I don't know what anybody's really
1:10:45talking about why should I go into a
1:10:47witness protection program well you're
1:10:5157 years old now correct you know you're
1:10:56not uh you're not a frail guy but you're
1:10:58not the 25 year old John anymore right
1:11:03if someone were to test you someone came
1:11:07in and and slapped you in the face or
1:11:10disrespected you in a certain type of
1:11:11way how would you react these days well
1:11:14somebody's gonna put their hands on me
1:11:15physically of course I'm gonna fight I
1:11:17mean listen I'm gonna tell you the same
1:11:19thing we talked about the big a notice
1:11:20I'm not saying I'm gonna beat everybody
1:11:22involved 57 years old but I'll fight you
1:11:25know and the idea is I will protect
1:11:27myself if somebody comes after me with a
1:11:29weapon I guess they're gonna have to
1:11:31find out if I could take that weapon and
1:11:33do something back to them with that
1:11:34weapon if somebody tries to hurt me to
1:11:36kill me I'm gonna protect myself and try
1:11:38to take their life but I'm not going out
1:11:41looking for that anymore those days are
1:11:43gone because someone before if somebody
1:11:45would have talked about me or or even
1:11:47Merman hurting me or trying to kill me
1:11:49or something I'll be the first guy
1:11:50through that door and anybody that knows
1:11:53me knows I went through a lot of
1:11:54people's doors that I don't care if they
1:11:56got guns in the house I don't care if
1:11:57there's ten guys we just went through
1:11:59all the shootings I did alone all the
1:12:01baseball bat beatings I did alone I'm
1:12:03not like these weak guys that need 20
1:12:04guys to sit and justify what I do
1:12:07physically or you know verbally that's
1:12:10the only weak guys that need all these
1:12:11guys they need a hundred guys to stand
1:12:13strong I just need myself to stand
1:12:15strong I've been strong my whole life so
1:12:17nothing's gonna change that I'm not
1:12:19gonna fall weak for that well you still
1:12:22live in New York yes I still live in New
1:12:25York I also live in Jersey
1:12:28do you ever run into any of your old
1:12:31enemies or associates and so forth sure
1:12:33I do listen the funny part is I probably
1:12:37ran into about 30 guys over the last
1:12:39eight nine years and 28 of them say
1:12:42hello so you know but they don't want
1:12:44everybody else to know that saying hello
1:12:46and the other two will go to you on the
1:12:47way and you know I had one or two
1:12:49incidents and since I came home
1:12:51and same you know only cowards come with
1:12:5410 guys and 20 guys and 5 guys I don't
1:12:57see anybody steppin to me one-on-one so
1:13:00when I see that I'll let you know about
1:13:01it though but I'm not worried about it's
1:13:04not like getting punched in the face as
1:13:05a big deal I've been in boxing and a
1:13:06ring my whole life and you know what
1:13:09I've been through stabbed up and batted
1:13:10and every other thing it's shot so
1:13:12what's the big deal it's part of our
1:13:13life but getting hit it's laughable I
1:13:17think I didn't hit since I'm a little
1:13:18kid that doesn't do it but respecting
1:13:21guys I got respect for a lot of tough
1:13:23guys that are out there I know who they
1:13:24are and I'm not talking about just guys
1:13:26you know friendly whatever guys that are
1:13:28my enemy I'll respect them if they're
1:13:30legitimate but most of these guys that I
1:13:32know of what I'm talking about just
1:13:35powder Seles guys that move a little
1:13:38drugs a little powder little pills and
1:13:39they talk themselves about being a
1:13:41gangsta when they never touched a
1:13:43handgun and their life or don't know
1:13:45what it is to be shot or stabbed up or
1:13:47batted up and you know things that come
1:13:49with the life so well you said you've
1:13:52had a couple of incidences since you
1:13:54came back correct what happened you know
1:13:59one incident I was drunken you know
1:14:01which is unlike me and I was alone and
1:14:04about 10 guys try to come in and jump me
1:14:07one guy sucker punch me from behind just
1:14:08you know nonsense but when these guys
1:14:11want to play it you know you know this
1:14:13nonsense and just pretend to be
1:14:15gangsters and they gotta come with 10
1:14:17guys and nobody's gonna nobody with 10
1:14:19guys first off second if they wanted to
1:14:21kill you wait outside I'm walking out
1:14:22the door kill me but you want to be a
1:14:24you know faker you're gonna do what you
1:14:28did you gonna punch me from behind not
1:14:30even from the front
1:14:31you didn't even man enough to put me hit
1:14:33to the deck I don't know too many guys
1:14:36if they can hit you should be you should
1:14:38be knocking that guy down just like he
1:14:40said I'm not 30 anymore but whatever
1:14:42it's nonsense to me that's just a
1:14:43nonsense kid thing that they did you
1:14:45know it's stupid they hide you don't
1:14:47know who it is they don't even if you're
1:14:49a tough guy well I guess you'll say who
1:14:51you are well who asked you to come but
1:14:54to me I take that as just you know I
1:14:57don't know if I can use this word but
1:14:59just a [ __ ] thing to do I mean it's just
1:15:01the guys that ain't really killers or
1:15:03Street guys or gangsters
1:15:05I know who's gangstas Oh trust me if
1:15:07they run it to me and they got a problem
1:15:08with me I'm not getting punched in the
1:15:10face I'm getting shot in the head it's
1:15:12over lights out so I'm used to a
1:15:14different you know the old-school
1:15:16gangster the young kid that's here with
1:15:18me tonight gene Burrell oh he's a tough
1:15:20kid
1:15:20he's a kid that you know if you run it
1:15:22to him he's not gonna punch you in the
1:15:24face so he's gonna handle you a
1:15:26different way and this is the guys you
1:15:28know whether I like it or not I respect
1:15:29that in life because I understand the
1:15:31life I had another incident in Atlantic
1:15:34City and the same thing when they were
1:15:37out a street nobody for guys but I
1:15:39wasn't drunk this time for guys I hurt
1:15:41one of them years ago a captain in
1:15:42prison and the guys didn't know who I
1:15:44was and out in the street they didn't
1:15:47want to do anything cuz there was no
1:15:48cameras there they wait till they go
1:15:49inside a place with cameras so just tell
1:15:51you about the mentality so you know you
1:15:54got to take it with a grain of salt and
1:15:56you're gonna understand who it's coming
1:15:57from and understand that you know I'm
1:16:00not living in error of Arizona or excuse
1:16:03me well Tennessee is somewhere I'm
1:16:05living in New York I mean things are
1:16:07gonna happen and if they do happen it's
1:16:11uh just part of the life I'm used to it
1:16:14but getting punched this back to when I
1:16:16was 3 years old so that's not something
1:16:19I'm too concerned about my kids are in
1:16:21good shape too tough kids they're nice
1:16:23kids and I wanted to stay that way you
1:16:25know you don't get paid to go fight the
1:16:26street if they want to fight I tell him
1:16:28all the time I got good friends of mine
1:16:30you know friend spot thieves pro fighter
1:16:33and Bobby chose my friend it was an ex
1:16:35pro fighter Danny Brown that runs a gym
1:16:38in Camden I'm down a gym all the time
1:16:40with these guys and you know my kids
1:16:41want to fight going to gym and fight
1:16:43fight every day I tell every kid this
1:16:44you know win and then he ain't getting
1:16:46any money for fighting Street me and you
1:16:48get into a fight and you you punch me in
1:16:50the mouth you're gonna make any money at
1:16:51the end of that so you know why do it be
1:16:54a gentleman go enjoy your life and don't
1:16:57follow what we followed because it's
1:16:58misery as much as I don't care for Gotti
1:17:00I mean he's got to be it's got to
1:17:02advocate and say hey this is not a life
1:17:05anybody wants I lost my fall in a way I
1:17:08did I don't want my kids in this life
1:17:10and that's the only thing she'd advocate
1:17:14isn't have to like me over I don't know
1:17:15I'm never gonna like him either probably
1:17:17unless he changes it's nuts
1:17:18okay kids maybe I'm a little more
1:17:20respect but well you know let's do
1:17:22something for kids well when you were in
1:17:26your heyday we're talking about the
1:17:28eighties there was no internet
1:17:32nobody had a camera phone in their
1:17:34pocket there were not cameras everywhere
1:17:37you went you could go in into you know
1:17:42you could walk down the street in New
1:17:43York shoot somebody and run away and
1:17:45then that's it you know if no one wants
1:17:47to testify or if no one saw you that's
1:17:49the end of the story but in 2020 they
1:17:55could triangulate your phone they have
1:17:58cameras everywhere I remember this one
1:18:01time I was driving into Lincoln Tunnel
1:18:03and I was showing somebody a video
1:18:07camera and a cop pulled up next to me
1:18:09and said turn off the video camera they
1:18:11they really could look into cars and
1:18:13know exactly what you're doing is it
1:18:17possible to be a gangster in 2020 and
1:18:20get away with it like you did know you
1:18:22can only be an imbecile to be on the
1:18:24street these days
1:18:25honestly you you watch TV every day and
1:18:28I'm not talking I'm just talking about
1:18:29regular crime every day on the news
1:18:31watch these guys walk around cheese into
1:18:33the camera as if there's no camera here
1:18:35committing crimes I mean what a date
1:18:37thing I don't know what they could be
1:18:39thinking cuz there's a camera on every
1:18:40corner like you said there's a camera at
1:18:42people's front doors on their steps
1:18:44somewhere hidden somewhere there's
1:18:45cameras in people's hand there's GPS
1:18:47there's easy pass they'll triangulate
1:18:49everything you're doing you're not
1:18:51getting away with anything you might get
1:18:53away with it for that second but a week
1:18:55later a day later or two weeks later or
1:18:57a month later they're just gonna go
1:18:58triangulate everything look at cameras
1:19:00from Street to Street to Street and then
1:19:02you're gonna get locked up I mean I
1:19:04don't know what the younger generation
1:19:06is thinking to even try to be a gangster
1:19:09or try to be a criminal or try to join a
1:19:10gang it's only one way you're gonna go
1:19:13to jail and you're gonna stay there
1:19:15depending on what the crime was from a
1:19:17short period to a very long period but
1:19:19if if you stay in that lifestyle you're
1:19:22gonna have problems that's one of the
1:19:24biggest things now I'm talking about
1:19:25what second chance program is these guys
1:19:28that are in prison that if you have a
1:19:30felony they should be able to get jobs
1:19:32come out and get a new life they already
1:19:34did that time help them to to not go
1:19:37back to crime let them get jobs wherever
1:19:39they want that probably shouldn't be
1:19:41used against them because if you try to
1:19:43stop stop crime you got to give people
1:19:45access to make money you don't have to
1:19:46be criminal to make money and if you
1:19:48lost dope enough to be a criminal to
1:19:50make money you're gonna get caught
1:19:52it's very simple just what you said this
1:19:54is 2020 well is the Mafia still around
1:19:58in 2020 it's around but you know in my
1:20:02opinion people say it's smart that
1:20:04they're not hurting people the same way
1:20:05well you're not gonna hurt people the
1:20:06same way cuz you're gonna get caught but
1:20:08if you can't make them fear you then why
1:20:11they you're gonna listen to you so if
1:20:13you're not hurting guys and killing guys
1:20:15and I'm not saying I'm advocating for
1:20:18people to get killed but just the you
1:20:20know if there is no consequences people
1:20:24won't follow you know when in my day
1:20:26there's a consequence when you don't do
1:20:28what we ask and it's just like anything
1:20:31else when people are on cause and
1:20:33they're beeping each other give them the
1:20:34finger and they keep driving because
1:20:36there's no consequence but if there was
1:20:38a consequence nobody put that finger up
1:20:40and you know sometimes I you know same
1:20:43thing parenting kids it's hard to parent
1:20:45him without using in my opinion without
1:20:47using any kind of and I'm not saying
1:20:49beat them but be able to touch them in
1:20:52any which way I don't know I mean you
1:20:55got a second guess some of the things
1:20:58you know wise things out of control the
1:21:00way are the world's changed how do you
1:21:02stop the violence how do you stop and
1:21:05get kids to listen not to join these the
1:21:08mob of crews or gangs or streets I mean
1:21:11something it's a talk that I think what
1:21:14second chance is very important that's
1:21:16why I said if you can give somebody's
1:21:17kids an opportunity at life maybe kids
1:21:21wouldn't go into the street I'm not sure
1:21:23how to change that but I think I know
1:21:25that we need to talk more about it so we
1:21:27can change and help some kids do you
1:21:31miss the life at all you know at 57
1:21:33years old I'm assuming you're living a
1:21:34fairly square life you're not trying to
1:21:37go back to prison anymore do you miss
1:21:39your heyday listen these things you're
1:21:41gonna miss about it I mean particularly
1:21:43gaudy people ask me about anybody says
1:21:45we had some fun together too
1:21:46can't say we did and we laugh but I
1:21:48don't live a particularly square life I
1:21:50travel a lot I have fun I mean you make
1:21:53your own fun and it doesn't have to be
1:21:55criminal to be fun I got a lot of good
1:21:57friends out there I stayed in touch with
1:21:58over the years and I got a lot of new
1:22:01friends I'm always jumping into
1:22:03something that's exciting and there's
1:22:05new ventures and you know living like me
1:22:08I enjoy a lot I love life and I enjoy
1:22:10life I live it to the fullest I'm not
1:22:12one of those guys that sit at home all
1:22:14day I'll never do that that's not who I
1:22:16am so I think you know with it's it's
1:22:21the person and for the person wants to
1:22:23have you know guys go out of the house
1:22:25and you know you have that saying all
1:22:26the time the glass is half-full no you
1:22:29know it depends on how you look at
1:22:30things it's not that sunny out I mean
1:22:32you make your own choices and your own
1:22:34life and I just made a choice to live
1:22:36life now not to live uh a bad life like
1:22:39I used to I decided to like myself
1:22:41instead of retributive after everybody
1:22:43that bothers me so I choose to enjoy the
1:22:47support of my life and to make it a
1:22:49water you know feel like I have some
1:22:52awards to it and the rewarding life is
1:22:55helping all those really so I think I
1:22:57get a lot out of that I like it well you
1:23:01brought someone today that you want us
1:23:02to speak to as well yeah this is a guy
1:23:04that was again fat and erosion oh and
1:23:07Albin and Anthony's family member uh I
1:23:09know he was born I haven't seen him for
1:23:11years and was a street kid he kind of
1:23:13jumped into what I did and he started
1:23:15staying with banana guys and he knows a
1:23:18lot of it you know mod mob guys in
1:23:20modern day he just came home and he's a
1:23:23guy that I'm talking about a second
1:23:24chance with and kids like him he's in
1:23:26his early 30s and he knows the mob life
1:23:29and he was a tough kid and he's seen
1:23:31firsthand that the guys he was staying
1:23:33with weren't violent he was and what it
1:23:36gets you so I did bring him and I know
1:23:38his family forever so he comes from a
1:23:40heritage of gangster family from
1:23:43generations okay John you actually
1:23:45brought someone with you today we have
1:23:47Jean burello sitting down next to you
1:23:50who was born into the Gambino crime
1:23:53family but actually was affiliated with
1:23:54the Bonanno crime family and to make a
1:23:59long story short
1:24:00he essentially had a similar job as you
1:24:02as the enforcer of the Bonanno crime
1:24:04family correct when I left the
1:24:06neighborhood guys that you know we'd get
1:24:09reputations around the neighborhoods
1:24:10being tough guys well guys gangsters he
1:24:13kind of stepped into the shoes of where
1:24:15I was when I left off and just came out
1:24:19of jail and trying to change his life
1:24:21also yep okay now gene you just did five
1:24:25and a half years right
1:24:26okay now read off the laundry list of
1:24:29charges that you ultimately pled out to
1:24:31well I mean I had a state conspiracy I
1:24:33first Florida conspiracy on top of that
1:24:36and then my federal charges was
1:24:37conspiracy to commit murder attempted
1:24:39murder
1:24:39shooting assault home invasion will
1:24:42actually call Hobbs Act robbery arson
1:24:44alone shocked and an illegal gamblin you
1:24:47know just a lot of violence basically
1:24:48that was my department okay how many
1:24:51people did you shoot about three I was
1:24:55responsible for you know multiple more
1:24:57shootings and Rudi's ordered by the boss
1:25:01of the family yes my captain right can
1:25:05you say what that was Ronald G Alonzo is
1:25:07he still around
1:25:08uh he's in jail okay what made you want
1:25:14to get into this life probably the money
1:25:16growing up you know seen easy money nice
1:25:21things that I wanted and um you know it
1:25:25was easy to get that money with them
1:25:26they were making a lot of money the guys
1:25:28I was around the guy answered it was
1:25:29very wealthy
1:25:30and um I seen the money in the power
1:25:33over then I wanted it
1:25:35and did you know John before whom did
1:25:39you know John yes oh I see the next yes
1:25:41yes yeah he worked for my uncle back in
1:25:43a day okay
1:25:45and he mentor you at all or not so much
1:25:48not so much but you know we all adopt
1:25:50him he was a real rough tough guy coming
1:25:52up you know so everybody know who he was
1:25:55how old were you when you first start
1:25:57shooting people uh 20 okay and when you
1:26:03first start shooting people how did you
1:26:05react afterwards I didn't care you know
1:26:09how he's doing what I was told and
1:26:10that's right though you supposed to do I
1:26:13know okay but you grew up at a later
1:26:18time right you're you're younger you're
1:26:22how old
1:26:2235 35 so let's just do the math here you
1:26:28did five years so that means you went in
1:26:30around 2014 I'm starting your a 30 and
1:26:36during that time this is when there are
1:26:39there is the internet there are
1:26:40smartphones
1:26:41there's cameras everywhere hi I was
1:26:44daylight shootings on top of it
1:26:46one guy tried to kill him broad daylight
1:26:48in the middle of broad broad day right
1:26:51so I was just out of control
1:26:53you know once I put that gun on my hand
1:26:56that was it it was not a good thing
1:26:58so right cuz I remember one of the
1:27:02things I learned about John when going
1:27:04through my research was that John was
1:27:06known as someone that was shoot anyone
1:27:08anywhere right I was so I was similar
1:27:11right my whole thing was wherever I
1:27:13could get you right see the problem
1:27:16about loud is is our neighborhood
1:27:18instead of breeding athletes and guys
1:27:21that want to be doctors and lawyers we
1:27:23got guys that like prior to me was
1:27:26Robert angles I would look up to him I
1:27:28stepped in his shoes and he you know
1:27:30unfortunately jeans being raised the
1:27:32same way we want to be gangsters in our
1:27:34neighborhood so when I walk away from
1:27:37that area he steps in somebody's going
1:27:40to take that position he wanted to take
1:27:41that position where are you gonna take
1:27:43that position unfortunately that's why
1:27:45we talk about the second chance program
1:27:47and
1:27:48getting that mentality away from the
1:27:49next generation yeah you know for
1:27:51instance we had an altercation a guy was
1:27:53hiding from me
1:27:54so I couldn't get to him so I went with
1:27:56his house would a tec-9 machine-gun and
1:27:58I sprayed his whole house up
1:27:59because you know he was hiding from me
1:28:00and that's how I had to do it you don't
1:28:02want to come meet me so you know you got
1:28:03my friend shot to the neck tried to kill
1:28:05me
1:28:06sorry tally ate it I got a machine gun
1:28:07and I ate his whole house out and that's
1:28:10how I was okay and were you arrested for
1:28:14that particular incident nah he was
1:28:15another mob guy so he held it down he
1:28:18wouldn't come again I went back again
1:28:19and did it a week later and I went back
1:28:21to explain sales calls on fire and then
1:28:23he moved and that's how I won so that's
1:28:26how I was you know I was very if I'm
1:28:28gonna get you I'm gonna get you I'm not
1:28:30gonna stop til I got you and that's how
1:28:31I was okay you yourself were you shot or
1:28:35stabbed along the way they I would know
1:28:36they tried to kill me twice
1:28:39one time my house with a machine gun in
1:28:41my bedroom a rival mac-10 put a roll
1:28:44through my windows to my bedroom area
1:28:47and then they try to kill me on a Jackie
1:28:49Robinson they missed me and shot my
1:28:50friend to her neck yeah okay you end up
1:28:55doing five and a half years right now
1:28:58that you're out do you still consider
1:29:00yourself a gangster no I don't I mean by
1:29:04heart I'm still a tough guy I know that
1:29:05you know am i scaring a body but I'm not
1:29:07uh
1:29:07not in the crime round the mall I'm done
1:29:11do you regret the things that you did in
1:29:13your previous life yes pathetic yeah I
1:29:19do you wish you never went down that
1:29:21path
1:29:21yes do you have children
1:29:24no no wife no children nothing you lose
1:29:29everything when you go to jail you know
1:29:32yeah one of the things that I learned
1:29:34because I'm gonna read a lot of
1:29:36gangsters over the years a lot of
1:29:38kingpins and so forth from the freeway
1:29:40Ricky Ross is you know from LA to the
1:29:43little D who was the crack kingpin of
1:29:45Oakland it's a convertible bird in Miami
1:29:50and the one thing that I've always heard
1:29:52time and time again is that no matter
1:29:55how on top you are when you get locked
1:29:58up no matter how many millions you have
1:30:00wherever you're stashing this money with
1:30:01your putting properties and other
1:30:03people's names and so forth these people
1:30:05that you've held down you've made lots
1:30:07of money for when you get out it's all
1:30:09gone gone the minute you go in once they
1:30:12hear real-time might say the talk on
1:30:13they start robbing you that's it they
1:30:15did it to my uncle Andy and he was the
1:30:17boss soon as he went in they were
1:30:18talking about at his funeral they were
1:30:20talking about what they were gonna take
1:30:22from him didn't even care he was dead
1:30:24that's how it goes
1:30:26tines are cut throats yeah and you know
1:30:31we interview a lot of a lot of these
1:30:33criminal figures and it's not to glorify
1:30:35this life it's really to say look you're
1:30:38gonna have a run it may last a few years
1:30:41if that comes with a lot of prison time
1:30:43and when you get out you're gonna have
1:30:44nothing right I've been Angie on my
1:30:46whole life that's it crime jail crime
1:30:50jail that's it that's it yeah what are
1:30:56your plans now you're you're 35 years
1:30:58old do you have a high school diploma
1:31:01now you know you didn't go to college
1:31:06obviously you're you have a felony on
1:31:11your record tons yeah even even renting
1:31:16an apartment is a challenge right
1:31:19everything but gotta be a regular guy
1:31:21you know how do you and you have a long
1:31:25life ahead of you how do you plan on
1:31:26living out the rest of your life I can't
1:31:28answer that right now but I'm taking a
1:31:29day-by-day you know I'm gonna try you
1:31:31know just become a regular person you
1:31:33know nine-to-five job and um live a
1:31:35regular life you know yeah it's rough
1:31:39but I'm gonna do it yeah well John I
1:31:43understand why you brought gene on I
1:31:45think it's actually a very uh very
1:31:47strong ending to your story and it kind
1:31:51of shows how things go full circle and
1:31:54how some things just never change well
1:31:56hopefully you take a guy like gene and
1:31:57guys just like Gena reach out to me not
1:31:59just in this country in other countries
1:32:01and we we put set in motion some
1:32:04programs to help them to get back to a
1:32:07normal life and if they have that help
1:32:09then hopefully they don't go back to
1:32:11that old style of living because
1:32:12something that's comfortable for
1:32:14that's what they usually do but if we
1:32:16could set something else up make them
1:32:17comfortable in a new life then hopefully
1:32:20we start some programs like what second
1:32:22chance and and see where we could go and
1:32:24helping some young guys have a life it's
1:32:27all treachery man they don't care about
1:32:28nobody closes people till you turn on
1:32:30you first chance they get
1:32:32you know everybody's plotting our each
1:32:33other I remember sitting in a car with
1:32:34somebody to get out the car with plan on
1:32:36robbing you know and that's just the way
1:32:37it is you know we robbed guys and own
1:32:39crew we just you know there's no loyalty
1:32:42I seen it firsthand from best friends
1:32:44everything so you learn yeah I be you
1:32:49just better off just doing a legitimate
1:32:50career right you really are you're
1:32:54better off paying your taxes going to
1:32:56school hollering a company and in 2020
1:32:59there's more opportunity especially in
1:33:01America to be rich than any other time
1:33:02in history
1:33:03Mike well I think he understands - he's
1:33:05staying with guys and his crew his
1:33:07bosses or friends associates
1:33:08no one's no one's using guns no one's
1:33:11violent he's the only guy I was the only
1:33:13one running around so just pointing so
1:33:15you got to understand at some point
1:33:17hey this isn't something I need to do
1:33:19all my life these guys won't do but
1:33:21they're asking me to do it so you got to
1:33:23turn around at this point stage your
1:33:24life and saying not just him guys that
1:33:26are in prison I reach out to me now how
1:33:29do we change well that's what we're here
1:33:30for we're gonna try to help them change
1:33:33well I appreciate the both of you coming
1:33:36in I think it's a very powerful story
1:33:37and I think it's going to get a lot of
1:33:39people looking and saying maybe I'm
1:33:42gonna go a different direction maybe I'm
1:33:44gonna go and go back to school
1:33:46maybe this street thing really isn't for
1:33:48me and a lot of times we have black
1:33:51gangsters on the show and people think
1:33:54that we're just showing that side and
1:33:56this is why I try to kind of even things
1:33:58out it really doesn't matter what color
1:34:00race ethnicity gender or whatever you
1:34:05are ultimately if you choose a certain
1:34:06type of life it's gonna end the same way
1:34:08glad I was just in Brownsville I have a
1:34:10lot of black friends people that know me
1:34:11know I grew up with a lot of people that
1:34:14were black Spanish but more so black
1:34:17sort of my kids and to me this is not a
1:34:20colored thing this is if you ever if
1:34:23you're from the streets you grow up in
1:34:24the streets and if you grow up in
1:34:25poverty we
1:34:27you know we're bout to tie into the
1:34:30streets a little more than the average
1:34:31guy and when I talk to some of my
1:34:34friends that from Jamaica or from East
1:34:36New York or from Brownsville I just did
1:34:39a thing at Brownsville we talked about
1:34:40this whole time we just got a bad
1:34:41together forget about color and anything
1:34:43and and just try to save some kids lives
1:34:46and give them opportunities to do what
1:34:48you're doing or what somebody else is
1:34:50doing and staying a legitimate world and
1:34:52and really that's the objective well
1:34:55millions of people are gonna watch this
1:34:56and I think that we are absolutely
1:34:58absolutely gonna touch people and I
1:35:01think we are gonna change people's lives
1:35:02and I appreciate you guys both coming in
1:35:04I really appreciate that quick bunker
1:35:06gave you 30 years yep absolutely until
1:35:09next time thank you peace peace

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