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Joe Rogan Experience #1858 - Josh Dubin & Derrick Hamilton — Transcript

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0:05[Music]
0:13joshua my brother what's up man good to
0:15see you my friend it's great to see you
0:17always please introduce your friend
0:20man it's hard to introduce
0:22the unintroducible
0:24so this is
0:26derek hamilton who has been
0:30regarded by the new yorker
0:33as the most prolific
0:35jailhouse lawyer that ever lived
0:38he is
0:42single-handedly responsible for freeing
0:45probably over a hundred people
0:47including himself
0:49he spent um
0:51three decades in jail
0:53for
0:54murders that he didn't commit
0:57he was framed by one of the most
0:59horrific
1:01corrupt cops
1:03in the city
1:04of new york's history someone by the
1:06name of scarcella
1:09um but more than that he's become
1:12known as
1:14the one of the the
1:15biggest and most effective criminal
1:17justice reform advocates in the country
1:20and uh we'll tell you get into it a
1:23little bit more later but
1:25derek is is not a miracle he's a force
1:27of [ __ ] nature
1:29and i'll tell you a little bit about how
1:31we met and how we got involved together
1:35so
1:37probably about
1:39nine years ago
1:42jay-z wanted to get into boxing
1:44and
1:45roc nation started a
1:48a promotional
1:49company to promote boxers and andre ward
1:52was one of them so we were on the
1:54opposite side of the negotiating table
1:57and it might be less or more than nine
2:00years ago was right on the heels of the
2:01eric garner
2:04murder
2:05when he was you know putting a choke
2:08hold on staten island
2:10and jay-z was coming to sign the
2:12contract and i was there with jay prince
2:15and we started talking about like what
2:17the [ __ ] is wrong with this country
2:19and
2:20figured out that we had like a common
2:22bond in that regard
2:24so fast forward to a few years later
2:28we
2:30i find out through working with roc
2:32nation
2:33on just
2:35criminal justice reform initiatives that
2:37jay-z has this
2:39foundation that flies under the radar
2:41that is just
2:43remarkable it's called the sean carter
2:44foundation he and his mother started it
2:47and they take inner city youth
2:49mostly from brooklyn really the five
2:52boroughs
2:53and
2:55help give them an opportunity to go to
2:57college but they start when they're in
2:58high school they take them on a bus tour
3:00they help them with the application
3:02process and they literally change the
3:04trajectory of these people's lives
3:07so i had this idea
3:09that
3:10i would have
3:11five of their scholars we would do a
3:13scholarship program come work on social
3:16justice cases with me
3:18and jay-z's mom loved it
3:21he loved it roc nation there's someone
3:23named donya diaz who runs their
3:24philanthropy arm and she's on the board
3:26of the sean carter foundation
3:28we made it a reality it took a couple of
3:30years so this summer i had five college
3:34students
3:35that were coming to work with me
3:37on innocence cases
3:39and i said you know i need somebody
3:42that can really connect with these
3:43people
3:45because
3:46i have
3:47sympathy for the way they grew up for
3:50the conditions that they were born into
3:52for the opportunities that they didn't
3:54have but i can't empathize because i'm
3:55white
3:56it's just as simple as that
3:58so i thought of derek and i had met
4:01derek
4:02about
4:03five years ago
4:06after he had been out for only six years
4:09and derek was the first person on my
4:12mind that can mentor these students
4:15and i
4:16asked him if he would join me in helping
4:18mentor them through this seven week
4:21program working with me on a case
4:24and over the past seven weeks were this
4:26close to freeing
4:30this man named bruce bryant
4:32who
4:33they worked on together
4:36they worked on his case together and
4:38to watch derek and to know his story i i
4:42knew right away that he'd be able to
4:44connect with them but i did not know his
4:45power
4:47so
4:48when
4:49he picks up the phone and calls a
4:50district attorney of queens they take
4:53his call right away
4:54he calls the head of a conviction
4:56integrity unit that's involved in
4:57re-reviewing cases he's got such deep
4:59respect and people in high places have
5:02such admiration for him because of what
5:05he was able to overcome
5:08in not only helping himself
5:10but helping free others
5:12he
5:13had a settlement with the city
5:16uh and the state
5:18and instead of
5:19taking that settlement and resting on
5:21his laurels and doing whatever which
5:23would have been understandable
5:25he's dedicated his life
5:27to helping get people out of jail
5:30and not only that to helping reform the
5:32criminal justice system but these are
5:34words like reform the criminal justices
5:36and we kick around this man is a
5:39he is a a human
5:41tornado of
5:43of action that instead of leaving
5:45destruction in its wake leaves hope
5:48and instead of dev you know devastation
5:51leaves opportunity i mean so maybe
5:53tornado was the wrong analogy but i've
5:55just never witnessed
5:57anything like it so i'm on the the verge
6:00of starting this new criminal justice
6:02reform center which we're not at liberty
6:04to announce
6:06um that is being funded by
6:09um
6:10someone that i've talked about quite a
6:12bit on this show
6:13and they were asking me to find a deputy
6:15director
6:16you know a lawyer and i said
6:20i looked at resumes i interviewed people
6:22and i said i found him
6:24i found my lawyer he may not have a law
6:26degree but he knows more about criminal
6:28procedure he's more respected he's the
6:32best strategic thinker i've ever
6:34encountered and he knows human beings
6:36better than anyone and derek's going to
6:38be my i'm the executive director
6:40derek is going to be my deputy director
6:42and i mean i'll let him tell his story
6:45but
6:46when you hear what he's been through and
6:49what he's overcome and what he has done
6:51since
6:52um
6:53he's he's not a force and there's words
6:56aren't adequate to describe who this man
6:59is and what he's overcome and what he's
7:00been through i was trying to suck an
7:03ounce of his mental
7:05energy on the ride over here from
7:07houston
7:09just trying to understand how he summons
7:11the strength because i'm trying to use
7:13it and apply to my own life so it's just
7:16uh if
7:17i'm not going to cry yet it usually
7:19waits an hour too but it's just so it's
7:21amazing it's just amazing to me the way
7:24the universe aligned for us to come
7:26together and for him to be next to me to
7:28today and for
7:29your listeners and you to hear his story
7:31is just an honor
7:33well it's an honor to meet you derek
7:35especially after such high praise so
7:37tell me your story like how what
7:39happened to you
7:40well thanks for having me and josh
7:42thanks for the accolades um you know i
7:45was 17 year old kid running around
7:47brooklyn at a time when brooklyn was uh
7:49terrible
7:50and i was a product of my environment i
7:52was doing little robberies and a little
7:55stump stuff that adolescents do
7:57and i got on the
7:59radar police department uh they used to
8:01search me all the time pat me down you
8:03know throw me up on the car regular
8:04stuff that happened in that community um
8:07one day
8:09a man was killed about five am by some
8:12older guys in the neighborhood
8:14the police had the identification of
8:16their car
8:17they called the guy in and he
8:19somehow told them he rented me the car
8:22and that i was the one that brought the
8:24car back and told him that i had
8:25committed the crime and that i had shot
8:27the guy by accident
8:29um and that was my first real experience
8:32with the criminal justice system because
8:34it was a murder
8:35i'm like murder you know i did a couple
8:37of robberies i you know i did some petty
8:39stuff but murder that's not me
8:41so um you know what was amazing to me is
8:44number one
8:45um nobody would have gave me their car
8:47at 17 years old right any cop would have
8:49known that this guy would have gave me
8:51his car
8:52um but they arrested me and they charged
8:54me with murder
8:55um and i was convicted
8:57uh by a jury because they admitted grand
9:01jury testimony of a witness who came
9:03before the court and said i never seen
9:05this guy at all the police made me lie
9:07in the grand jury and say that i seen
9:10this guy i'm not testifying i refuse to
9:12testify i'm not going to get up there
9:13and purging myself
9:14uh the judge told the prosecutor that
9:16day that they were dismissing the case
9:18that if they don't get another witness
9:20this case is going out of here um
9:22judge's name was lombardo back then this
9:23was 1983.
9:25um i went back to righteous island that
9:27day we came back the next day and the
9:29judge said that he thought about this
9:31all night
9:32and he felt that the only person would
9:34benefit from this witness not testifying
9:36would be me
9:38therefore he was going to allow the
9:39prosecutor to admit their grand jury
9:41testimony as evidence in chief at my
9:44trial and i would forfeit my right to
9:46confront the witness and let the jury
9:48hear the truth that she never saw the
9:50crime so that was my first real
9:51experience i was a young knucklehead the
9:53lawyer that i had at the time candace
9:55curtis said look young man get your head
9:57out your ass and you better read these
9:58cases and you better see what's going on
10:00like they railroad you she took the
10:02stand and told the judge what the
10:04witness told her
10:05um and and i was convicted i was
10:07sentenced to 25 years life
10:09um and it was at that moment that i know
10:12that i had to study law that i had to
10:14really dig deep in in the books and i
10:16did it new york state uh thank god had
10:19a law library they had all the books in
10:20the world you had to supply yourself and
10:23i spent the next five and six years
10:24working on my case
10:26uh in 1987 the appellate division in
10:28that case found that the judge had no
10:31evidence whatsoever that me or anybody
10:33acting on my behalf had threatened this
10:35witness did anything improper and that
10:37the judge was right there was no
10:38evidence that that can prove that so
10:40they reversed the conviction
10:42and i was able to get out of prison
10:44after six and a half years
10:46unbeknownst to me there was a road cop
10:48by the name of louis scarcella
10:50who felt that i didn't do enough time
10:52for this conviction he didn't like the
10:53appellate division decision
10:55eight months later
10:56i was in new haven connecticut at a
10:58unisex salon that i had on at the time
11:00uh he came in that store and arrested me
11:03told me i was going back to brooklyn for
11:05a murder
11:06um and i'm like a murderer like this
11:08can't be true like again like how many
11:10times has happened i went to new york
11:13um i was processed about
11:16a year later i went to trial i was
11:18convicted they bought a witness in by
11:20the name of jew smith
11:22who said that she was present at the
11:24murder when her boyfriend was killed
11:26that i was a gunman i had a gun in my
11:27hand and i shot this individual several
11:29times with this gun
11:31um but her original statement to the
11:32police said she wasn't there
11:34that she never saw this crime she was
11:36around the corner at a store when she
11:38came back her boyfriend was dead the
11:40jury never heard that statement but in
11:42any event um the ballistics evidence
11:44proved
11:45that this guy was shot with two
11:46different guns that he wasn't shot in
11:48the building where she said he was shot
11:50at but he was shot outside
11:52in the street
11:53despite this evidence i was convicted
11:56after i was convicted was when i learned
11:58that she had first told the cops at the
12:00crime scene she never saw the crime but
12:03she had told it to a different detective
12:05so i made a proceeding motion to set
12:06aside the verdict and in the motion i
12:08argue that this detective that never
12:10came in that she gave the statement uh
12:12to could prove my innocence and the
12:15judge ordered a hearing for a year he
12:16said i can't give this guy a day in jail
12:19let alone
12:20uh 15 years which is the minimum i want
12:22this witness to come back the prosecutor
12:24said i'm not calling him and the judge
12:26said if you don't call her back
12:28this case is going to a new trial right
12:30they called the bat and she admitted
12:32that she never saw the crime that the
12:33detective louis scarce teller told her
12:35what happened and told her that if she
12:37didn't get up here and say that i
12:38committed the crime she was going to
12:40jail she was on parole her boyfriend was
12:42a felon that just got out she had kids
12:44they said you're going to jail she said
12:46what was i supposed to do here's the
12:48system telling me this that if i don't
12:49come in and say this i'm going to jail
12:52and i came in and said it
12:53uh the judge wrote a year later that
12:57again he felt that i was
13:00he said there was a common thread of
13:01strings i manipulated this evidence
13:04again i called the detective the
13:06detective came in and said exactly what
13:07the witness said
13:09that she told him she didn't see the
13:10crime that she was beat up
13:12and took to the priest and then told she
13:14was going to jail now had that jury
13:15heard that there'd have been different
13:17results
13:18at the at the trial they told the jury
13:20that her first statement was the most
13:21important statement in this case and
13:23then when the police arrived on the
13:24scene she didn't hesitate she said derek
13:26hamilton somebody i know my entire life
13:28committed the crime which wasn't true in
13:30fact she said the truth which she didn't
13:32see the crime that she was somewhere
13:33else
13:34um i was sentenced to 25 years of life
13:37i filed numerous post-conviction motions
13:39after post-conviction motions every time
13:41a judge gave me a hearing every time he
13:43said he can throw the case out every
13:45time he said he was troubled by this
13:46conviction uh the prosecutor would come
13:48in and tell him a bad guy that this is
13:50not somebody you want to release that
13:52you know they put imagine harms and make
13:54a judge think that i was the most
13:55terrible person in the world and he
13:57would deny emotion every single time
13:59um you know i filed numerous emotions
14:01numerous post convictions i did
14:02everything you could imagine
14:03uh to prove my innocence but to no avail
14:06i began going to parole board around
14:092009
14:10it was a very traumatic experience for
14:12me because at that time the parole board
14:14wanted me to admit guilt and i wasn't
14:16going to do that i'm not going to come
14:17in and say i killed somebody i didn't
14:19kill i'm not doing that i don't care
14:21what you say and i had to challenge them
14:23and fight them for two years
14:25uh and then my family went out and
14:26protest and we got a daily news article
14:29put out that said that i would be free
14:31if the court would just basically give
14:32me justice if they just give this guy a
14:34fair shot he'd be home so it changed the
14:36the mentality of the parole board they
14:38looked at all of my evidence and they
14:40said you know based on the evidence that
14:41you presented here um we believe in your
14:44innocence like this evidence speaks for
14:46itself even the judge said you was
14:47innocent i don't know what you're doing
14:48here all these years and they released
14:49me and at that point i began a crusade
14:52because when i was in prison there were
14:54several guys we built something called
14:56the actual innocence team guys who i was
14:58working the little library so i would
14:59read god's case and check them out so
15:01what i had to do was
15:03get families together get people to come
15:05together and bring their families and
15:07say look let's send these people to city
15:08hall let them know there's a lot of us
15:10in here it's not just me it's white
15:11there's black there's a bunch of us in
15:13here they got the same issue that
15:15they're procedurally borrowing us
15:16they're not looking at our case kicking
15:18it into the garbage we don't want to
15:19hear it get out of here right because
15:20they can they had the power so we start
15:23bringing attention to these cases to
15:24change the whole dynamic so when i got
15:26out i joined that group family and
15:28friends of the royal convictions uh we
15:30had a pr guy by the name of lonnie suri
15:32who was helping us keep it together and
15:34we just began blasting the prosecutors
15:36we began protesting outside the offices
15:38and getting rid of them or the first one
15:40he was able to get rid of was charles
15:42hines in brooklyn the prosecutor that
15:43sent me to prison he was able to remove
15:45him and put a progressive prosecutor in
15:47that agreed that he would look at
15:49these convictions if he was elected so
15:51he got in and in two years he examined
15:5322 people
15:55and he found that it was a systemic
15:56racist problem in brooklyn that was
15:58convicting the wrong people
16:00uh fortunately for me uh the new york
16:02times reporter called me and i believe
16:04in 2012
16:06and they said why are people afraid of
16:08the police
16:09i just thought are you kidding me why
16:11are they afraid of the police
16:12and i told them names of guys that i
16:15knew that was in prison that this cop
16:16set up
16:18and a lawyer had contacted me and said
16:20he was working on a case which this cop
16:22framed another guy by the name of david
16:24ranta and he said in two weeks there's
16:26going to be an article in new york times
16:28that exposed this cop and i told the new
16:30york times reporter that
16:31and i said look two weeks if it comes
16:33out you come back to me and i'll take it
16:35to these guys and she came back francis
16:37roberts she came back and i took her to
16:39these guys she got the prosecutor to
16:41agree to look at 50 of these cops cases
16:4450 of them and um you know 20 was
16:47exonerated so far those guys
16:49and um i was exonerated in 2015 in 2014
16:53for the first time in
16:55new york history the appellate division
16:56second department ruled in my case that
16:59a free standing action innocence claim
17:00can be recognized under post-conviction
17:03motion and they said that anybody that's
17:05innocent the courts could no longer
17:06procedurally bother you they got to
17:08reach the merits of your contention they
17:10just can't say well you should have
17:11raised this before or your lawyer failed
17:13to do this before or you should have did
17:15you got to reach the merits of it get to
17:17the bottom line this guy innocent or not
17:19and when they gave me that opinion it
17:21kind of like in itself exonerated me
17:23because the prosecutor now had to hear
17:25my witnesses i had alibis i had police
17:27officers who said look this guy was in
17:28new haven connecticut not brooklyn when
17:30this murder happened we know because
17:31we've seen him there he was at a party
17:33with him i had a hotel received i had
17:34many witnesses that could verify where i
17:36was that on the day that daniel cash was
17:38murdered the court was just throwing the
17:39evidence in the garbage we in fact
17:41proved who committed the crime
17:42the real murderer was present when the
17:44cops arrived he was on parole for
17:46manslaughter they took his name down but
17:48never even investigated who he was so we
17:51had a lot of we had a witness who was
17:53there who identified who was there
17:54identified why the guy was shot there
17:56was a 9-1-1 caller said three male
17:58blacks fleeing in the red car he
18:00admitted they was in the red car they
18:01were just overwhelming evidence of my
18:03innocence but courts was just throwing
18:05it in the garbage because of the
18:06prosecutor lied to them and said he's a
18:08bad guy so my experience has taught me
18:10that you know there's a lot of innocent
18:12people i was in prison man look one
18:14thing about prison and i tell people
18:16they say hey everybody says the innocent
18:18that's not true right they may tell a
18:20lawyer that but they're not going to
18:21tell a guy in the neighborhood with them
18:22that i know you're guilty you know i was
18:24with you i know what you did you told me
18:26everybody tells me from the same
18:27neighborhoods so it's a small minority
18:30of people that's in the lower library
18:31every single day
18:33if you go to the yard guys is working
18:34out in the way pal right they're playing
18:36basketball but the innocent guys is in
18:38that law library every single day trying
18:41to find a way out and that was me
18:43um every single day and i studied every
18:45book in there i taught law classes um
18:47and i became very good at it i mean i
18:49was surprised i mean i don't go to
18:51college right when the lawyer gave me
18:52the first two cases and i read them i
18:54was surprised how well i knew the cases
18:56i was surprised how i comprehended him
18:58and it was because of that um that i
18:59kept going and i found a civilian who
19:01liked me uh he was working a little
19:03library and the first test i got was a
19:0444 and he said look man i'm not gonna
19:06waste my time you gotta explain what
19:08that is what a 44.
19:10uh a 44 was my grade on the test
19:13um i particular test the first test he
19:15gave me was on the constitution of the
19:17united states i had to learn the fourth
19:19fifth sixth eighth and fourteenth
19:20amendment um and i i failed i was
19:23playing and he said look you're not
19:24going to waste my time you're smarter
19:26than that he challenged me next time i
19:28came back i got a 97. so from that point
19:31on i just start studying i start start
19:33you know gravitating to the older guys
19:34that knew more than me uh because i was
19:36young that was willing to teach me and i
19:38was like a young sponge and i just i
19:39just loved what i did i became
19:40passionate about it and that's why i'm
19:42here now derek what kind of
19:44repercussions are there for cops that do
19:47things like this none i mean
19:50in our case
19:51uh the statute of limitations that ran
19:53out on this cop
19:54and let me just tell you about this cop
19:56he didn't just do it in the police
19:58department he left the police department
20:00went into the d.o.e department of
20:02education he did it there he framed the
20:04guy in the doe they later found out the
20:06guy did nothing wrong he had to
20:08reinstate him this is just his nature
20:10and his character um and he just gets
20:12away with it he gets away what's his
20:14name louis scarcella and he's out there
20:16still he's out there he's still getting
20:18the pension the city is still paying
20:20this guy uh we still got cases today
20:22that we are fighting in court for him
20:24james jenkins nelson cruz are they still
20:26actual cases that we litigating how many
20:28people do you think that guy wrongfully
20:30put in prison you know i tell you
20:32something i even tell you josh about
20:34this one and it's gonna
20:36this guy
20:37worked on over 200 cases
20:39my father was killed in 1988.
20:42he was the detective on that case
20:44um and i'll tell you something about
20:45that um
20:47he said that one of the guys
20:49snatched a confession out of his hand
20:51and ate it
20:52i didn't believe that
20:54i said as much as i want people who may
20:56be responsible for my father i can't
20:59trust this guy
21:00i can't take nothing he say to be truth
21:04right just recently that case was
21:06overturned samuel edmondson case because
21:08of his
21:09sloppy police work
21:11so i he says 200 cases he worked on i
21:14would like to believe at least half of
21:16those guys
21:17uh
21:18are innocent well a lot of them have
21:20been exonerated how many scarcella
21:22exonerations have there been 20 to date
21:25how does a guy not just get locked up
21:28immediately for that
21:30and when he testifies and when he
21:32testifies he has two lawyers with him
21:34now
21:34right i've never seen a witness come to
21:37court
21:38and have two lawyers standing with him
21:39we object to it all the time
21:41but i mean this is how much a criminal
21:42he is he had two lawyers standing with
21:44him all the time
21:45um to try to protect his rights and he
21:47don't remember anything now like he
21:48don't remember you know of course you
21:50don't recall nothing uh you got to bring
21:52the police reports to him says that's
21:54your signature did you do this but he
21:55don't remember anything of course
21:56selectively you don't even need
21:58it just shows you you know he he's been
22:00written about a lot
22:02scarcella there have been
22:04scores of articles out there about him
22:06because he was exposed and this is not
22:09an indictment of all police that that
22:11are amazing cops there are but a couple
22:14of bad eggs that let the power get to
22:16their head a couple of of rogue cops
22:19they don't just destroy a life
22:22they destroy
22:23you know it's a ripple one you know if
22:26you like derek and i
22:28were at sing-sing
22:30um visiting one of our clients
22:32this guy bruce bryant
22:34and
22:35you know it's the brothers the sisters
22:38the family and then you start to
22:40multiply that out and the ripple effect
22:42of how it affects these families there's
22:44been 20 exonerations that there's been
22:4622 actually but there's been 20 22
22:48exonerations connected to this one cop
22:51it only takes
22:52you know some rogue cops and people to
22:55look the other way
22:57and i mean look at this beautiful man
22:59how articulate and bright
23:02and and he's prolific in what he does
23:06and and and he snatched his life from
23:08him you know we were talking last night
23:10about how this is like a second chance
23:12to live for him
23:13some of the best years of his life
23:16he'll never get back you're never the
23:18same
23:19but he's easily the exception to the
23:22rule because he's out there and a force
23:24of nature and working toward helping to
23:28to solve this problem but you know
23:30scarcella you know we were just asked
23:32the same
23:33question on the way here
23:35because
23:36show you how small the world can get i
23:39haven't talked to paulie malinaji in
23:40years
23:43and he said to me something interesting
23:45called me the other day to check up how
23:47you doing
23:49uh you know what's been going on he said
23:52you know i've been following the work
23:53you're doing
23:54and for those that don't know paulie was
23:56a a world champion fighter that
23:59liked to talk a lot that i managed years
24:01ago but he's got he's a good soul he's
24:03got a good heart
24:04um and he said you know there's this
24:06case you got to look into for me
24:08a guy named louis fama f-a-m-a
24:12joey joey joey farmer
24:14um and he's like this guy was railroaded
24:18by this cops garcella
24:20and he's like will you look into this
24:22case for me i i write to him every month
24:26so i asked derek on the drive over here
24:28you hear about this this guy joey fama
24:30he goes yeah i'm working on his case
24:31right now
24:33we just filed post-conviction motions on
24:34his behalf so we called paulie in the
24:36car
24:37and paulie was like oh my god there's a
24:39reason why i called you and he said you
24:41know
24:42he asked the same question you did
24:44how in the [ __ ] is this guy still out
24:46there because
24:48whatever crimes he committed the statute
24:50of limitations have run on number one
24:52number two
24:53nobody's got the balls to prosecute him
24:56because that would be an admission
24:58wouldn't it absolutely and let me tell
25:01you how crazy it was right
25:03again the prosecutor was down with him
25:06they was all a part of the same click
25:08right and he used a witness by the name
25:11of teresa gomez in six murders
25:14for six months in a row each month she
25:17gave him a murder
25:18in one murder she said she looked
25:20through the peephole and saw the guy
25:22shoot there was no peephole on the door
25:25um
25:26six look just think about it six murders
25:29who see one murder but six in your
25:31lifetime in six months in a row to today
25:34he swears she was the most credible
25:36witness ever that she was the best
25:38witness in the world
25:40um and and they used uh the prosecutor
25:42ross at that time is now a judge in
25:44brooklyn um and on on a cigar
25:47uh website he said the first time he
25:49smoked the cigar was when that lying
25:52crackhead [ __ ]
25:53got a conviction he was talking about
25:55theresa gomez they knew she was a liar
25:57they knew that she would lie on people
25:58and i was in robert hill's case he was
26:00exonerated his brother alvina jeannette
26:03was exonerated and daryl austin three
26:05brothers she put in jail uh all three of
26:08mrs honorary daryl austin died in jail
26:10there's no you know repercussions for
26:12that he just lives his life
26:14runs on happy and he still to the day
26:17despite 20 convictions being overturned
26:19saying he did nothing wrong
26:21it's bigger than him it was the system
26:22he said i arrest the prosecutors convict
26:25you know i give it to them they decide
26:26what to do it wasn't my decision
26:29and it's just crazy that's how the
26:30system works though how is there no law
26:34that first of all eliminates the statute
26:36of limitations when someone put someone
26:38in jail for the rest of their [ __ ]
26:39life
26:40and and also treats something like that
26:43as organized crime that's organized
26:45crime
26:46well with any definition isn't it yeah
26:49that's a great question here's here's
26:50the thing
26:51that people have to start to understand
26:53and get through their get through their
26:55heads and believe it
26:57we have to be careful about who we put
27:01in power
27:03this is not
27:04are you a democrat are you a republican
27:07are you this
27:08we have to be careful because
27:10power is a is a is worse than any drug
27:14i'm now convinced of that yeah
27:16fame
27:17power any form of it and when if you
27:19don't start paying attention to the
27:22people that we are putting in positions
27:23of power this is it is human nature that
27:26this will keep happening as
27:28the mammals that we are we're hardwired
27:31to abuse power
27:33and
27:34you ask a great question
27:36which is how do we not suspend the
27:39statute of limitations it takes people
27:42that are willing to do the right thing
27:44that's right you know like i have been
27:46i have been excoriated
27:48about
27:50oh you went on rogan and said that
27:52that kamala harris was this but then you
27:55voted for her no i [ __ ] didn't
27:57i call it like i see it and i'm not a
27:59democrat i'm not a republican we have to
28:01be careful about who we put into power
28:04and once you start putting people in
28:06power that will do just the right thing
28:09not the popular thing but the right
28:10thing laws like that can get changed
28:14they can get change and and you know you
28:16you have said it before and you're right
28:19we're too
28:20until we can get out of this tribal
28:22mentality of either us them
28:26those right we're gonna keep on seeing
28:29this happen that [ __ ] is built into our
28:31dna we have to understand that we
28:33evolved as tribal groups
28:36and because of that we had to fight off
28:38other tribal groups we wanted to steal
28:40our resources we wanted to take our
28:41women that's always been the case with
28:43human beings and we have just moved that
28:46into republicans versus democrats that's
28:48true that's what we're doing and it's
28:49bad and and it's dan it's dangerous i
28:52call it like i see it the reason i was
28:54critical of kamala harris is because i
28:56called it like i saw it and i'll tell
28:58you what
28:59it was not a popular thing to do derek
29:01knows some of the fallout that i faced
29:04from the left quote unquote because they
29:06wanted to protect her but it's accurate
29:08yeah the problem is everything you said
29:10was accurate everything you said is
29:12provable everything you said is a 100
29:15stone cold carved and steel fact yeah
29:17but but it happens on both sides like
29:19let me give you an example here's
29:21something that blows my mind okay
29:23and
29:24we just have to be
29:26willing to step out of this tribal
29:28mentality all right you look at a guy
29:30like ron desantis all right everyone's
29:33gonna has their back up already ron
29:35desantis all right
29:36what he did in orlando
29:39was so
29:41[ __ ] mind-blowing or hell was it in
29:44orlando that he did this no in
29:45hillsborough canning in hillsborough
29:47county in tampa
29:49he goes and removes
29:51this really terrific guy
29:54right who whether you like him or not
29:56let's let's not call him a terrific guy
29:58he goes and removes a prosecutor an
30:00elected official on the hypothetical
30:03that if a state law
30:06passes
30:07that this guy won't enforce it all right
30:09hypothetical this is a statement this is
30:12a hypothetical because the guy signed a
30:14letter along with a bunch of other state
30:17and district attorneys saying if you
30:19pass an abortion law
30:21i don't think it's a good use of our
30:23resources
30:24to prosecute people that might be the
30:27victims of rape
30:28you know who were
30:31doctors who are trying to help the
30:32victims of rape i don't i think it clogs
30:34up the system and they had their
30:36rationale for it but there had never
30:38been a case brought before him yet now
30:40why did ron desantis do that in my
30:42opinion he did that because he knows
30:44abortion is a hot button issue and if he
30:47goes down there and removes this guy he
30:49becomes a hero for it
30:51here's the hypocrisy in that this has
30:53nothing to do with politics this has to
30:56do with the right thing
30:58fl watch this
31:00this this should [ __ ] freak everybody
31:02out imagine this
31:06in florida
31:08marijuana is still illegal
31:10it's
31:11i want to get it right so i don't i'll
31:13tell you what statute it's in in the
31:15florida statute it's a very wonderful
31:18it's it's the statue of criminalizing
31:20wheat in florida is section
31:23893.03 it's a controlled substance in
31:26florida
31:27there are a lot of states where it's
31:28still a controlled substance but it's
31:29been decriminalized florida's not one of
31:31them
31:32in hills in in orlando
31:36orlando said you know what
31:38we're going to decriminalize it here's
31:40how we're going to do it we're going to
31:41make it like a traffic ticket
31:44there's a sticky problem there though
31:46because there's a state law section 893
31:50.03 that makes it illegal
31:53so they passed a county ordinance
31:56they got the city council together and
31:58they passed a county ordinance
32:00and they said by a what was it a four to
32:03three vote
32:04we are not going to
32:06prosecute
32:08according to state law
32:10we're going to prosecute according to
32:11this county ordinance
32:13if ron desantis gave a [ __ ]
32:16about state attorneys not prosecuting
32:19crimes don't you think he would have
32:20been right there and said what the [ __ ]
32:23is this you're not prosecuting according
32:26to state law you're not fit to be
32:28a state attorney i'm pulling you out of
32:30office
32:31that's the first thing he would have
32:32done
32:33he didn't do that they they actually
32:36created a way to circumvent state law
32:38and did it this is not a hypothetical
32:41why did he do that why didn't he do that
32:43because he doesn't give a [ __ ] about
32:45this is not about the issue well also
32:48probably because it's politically
32:49popular it's
32:50abortion is politically popular so he
32:52knows he's gonna make himself so whether
32:54you're a quote unquote republican a
32:57democrat a libertarian if you don't look
33:00at that fact and say
33:03there's something really
33:05wrong there something wrong i don't care
33:07about anything else involving this man
33:10that in and of itself smacks of fascism
33:14when you go grab an elected official by
33:16the scruff of their neck and yank them
33:19out of an elected position that doesn't
33:21horrify you i mean and but when it comes
33:23to weed you know
33:25uh it's illegal in the state of florida
33:28you you sort of did an end around here
33:30to get around the law
33:32but i'm gonna leave that state attorney
33:34alone there's no answer to that i have
33:36met this man before he threw a tissy fit
33:40over the fact that i was wearing a mask
33:43at the height of the pandemic because my
33:45son has type 1 diabetes and i it wasn't
33:48known yet whether i could get it pass it
33:49to him
33:51and and
33:52instead of meeting with me turned his
33:54back on me and walked out he cancels
33:56clemency routinely in florida that
33:59should bother that should bother people
34:01that people like derek
34:04who just want a hearing just hear me
34:07you cancel the [ __ ] clemency you
34:09cancel the entire hearing so people's
34:11cases can't get hurt and until we're
34:13willing to step out of this why do you
34:15think he does that you would have
34:17because he's
34:18he's
34:20you would have to ask him but the
34:22question is
34:23why are we tolerating it why are we
34:25putting up with it why are we
34:27saying that that's okay because why
34:30because it's a tribal mentality and
34:31until people are willing to sort of step
34:33away and say you know what i don't like
34:35what this individual does
34:37i'm not going to vote for him i'm not
34:38going to vote that person into power
34:41there there are judges that get elected
34:43in the state of florida some that have
34:45ruined the lives of my clients
34:47um you know and they continually get
34:49elected because we vote along party
34:50lines instead of using our minds and you
34:52know derek and i were talking about it
34:54on the way here like what is it
34:57that prevents people
34:59from saying you know what i'm gonna do
35:01something
35:02instead of talk about it on instagram
35:05or post about it or [ __ ] about it at a
35:07cocktail party what prevents people from
35:10saying you know what
35:12maybe i'll run for office
35:14or maybe i will write a letter
35:16or maybe i will go protest and maybe i
35:18will take up this cause i i don't know
35:20what it is it's something stops in
35:22people and they say that's just
35:24something for other people
35:25if you want to
35:27make change happen and be about the
35:29change you can do it if you actually
35:32this guy is is a uh
35:34the best example of the power of one and
35:37how the power of one can sort of light a
35:39fire under the power of others i'm
35:41inspired by him i feel like there's not
35:43not enough time in the day to get things
35:45done and you start to see
35:48the fruits of your labor when you get
35:50the wind at your back and you start
35:52making change happen and i just think
35:53people feel like well politicians that's
35:56for someone else or being a leader
35:58that's for someone else a lot of it is
35:59just sort of getting out there and
36:00making it happen or else we're just
36:02going to be in this
36:03echo chamber with each other talking
36:05about whoa power corrupts and what are
36:07we going to do about it we have to do
36:09something about it
36:10derek it's amazing when some people get
36:12their back up against the wall they
36:14become like a different person like you
36:17you you literally changed the course of
36:19your education you you learned law like
36:22that is so inspiring to me that someone
36:24who gets put in a terrible situation
36:27instead of woe is me in and complaining
36:30you you went out and you
36:32changed the course of the history of
36:34your life you really did you did it
36:36yourself that's that's so incredible i
36:39mean i've heard similar stories of
36:41people becoming jailhouse lawyers but
36:43i'm always inspired by that and i'm
36:45always inspired by the human spirit that
36:48someone can despite the odds despite
36:51the way it feels despite the the the
36:54inclination to lean towards despair
36:56that you figured it out man i mean it's
36:59really amazing well you know for me uh
37:01one of the most telling things i could
37:03never understand how you know i'll give
37:05you example in in ragged island you wake
37:08up five o'clock in the morning you go to
37:10court so from 5am to probably
37:1410 o'clock at night you're in the
37:15bullpen you're stressed out and guys
37:17fighting each other cutting each other
37:19it's a zoo house right
37:21and i wish to be
37:23cursing these guys out because you're
37:24tough with each other but when you go
37:26before the judge you're a [ __ ] excuse a
37:28binocular i just couldn't understand
37:30that like the most important thing in
37:31your life you don't stand up and fight
37:34and i know i didn't want to be me i
37:35wanted to be the smartest guy in that
37:36courtroom if they was going to railroad
37:38me i was going to have objection i was
37:40going to say honor may i address the
37:42court and i was going to state the law
37:43and why what you was doing was wrong so
37:45i thanks cannons curse that attorney
37:47that gave me
37:48uh the advice study law man you got to
37:50fight for your life nobody's going to
37:51fight for it for you um and i grew up a
37:54fighter i grew up in beverly starbucks
37:55in brooklyn um and i couldn't fight
37:58physically so i know i had to arm myself
38:00mentally with enough intelligence to be
38:02able to take on the judge and take on
38:03the prosecutor to take on my defense
38:05attorney if they was wrong and that was
38:07my thing when i went in that courtroom i
38:09wanted to make sure even though you was
38:11railroading me that record and that's
38:13what got me out of prison the record um
38:15all of my objections got me out the
38:17judge had to admit
38:18that there was evidence to prove on
38:20medicine because i wouldn't let them
38:21have it no anyway i wasn't leaving that
38:22courtroom with him making a record like
38:24i was guilty whenever the prosecutor
38:26said that i shot somebody and killed
38:28them i objected i called them on the
38:30phone i wrote letters i used to call the
38:31judge chambers and act like i was
38:33somebody in the mayor's office and said
38:35why are you doing this to me they would
38:37be like yeah tell your client don't call
38:38me no more but to me
38:40um the most important thing i had was my
38:42life
38:43and if i didn't stand up and fight for
38:45it nobody else would nobody else could
38:46nobody else knew i was innocent um and
38:49they always believed that you're guilty
38:50because
38:51uh the prosecutor lawyers
38:55judges a lot of them in the same
38:56democratic party in new york city are
38:59they all amongst party lines they all
39:00hang out together they're friends i was
39:03on the outside in that and i knew for a
39:05fact that if i didn't stand up and throw
39:07punches back the only way that i could
39:09through the law that i would have stayed
39:10in prison the rest of my life
39:12what was the process like of learning
39:14law like did someone guide you through
39:16it did you just pick up books how did
39:18how did that work uh i'll tell you it
39:21was different processes at different
39:22time when i first began you know the
39:26fortunate thing for guys in new york
39:28they would have something called
39:29unofficial reporters so
39:31they would give us books when we can
39:33cross-reference through something called
39:34digest so let's say i got a criminal law
39:37topic i can take that topic and run it
39:40through a digest and get 20 cases the
39:42same way
39:43but for me what i used to do was read a
39:46lot of briefs um read a lot of judges
39:48decisions to try to like get the concept
39:51and the more you read the more you learn
39:53one of the things i did was i read the
39:55criminal procedure law from front to
39:57back from one all the way to the end and
39:59it gives you the procedures of what
40:01happened from the moment you're arrested
40:03to your convicted to your pill and
40:04everything else i had to master that
40:06there was a guy by the name of joe diaz
40:08they used to call him a colonel he was
40:09an old miserable guy in prison didn't
40:11like anybody but he took me up under his
40:13wing because he seen that i was very
40:14adamant i wasn't going anywhere
40:16and um he just told me you got a no
40:18procedure that prostate shooters beat
40:20you on procedure that they don't want to
40:22go to the marriage to your claim if they
40:24can get the judge to get you out of here
40:25without hearing the marriage they're
40:26going to do that so i had to master
40:28procedure and i only did that by reading
40:30i did 10 years in special housing unit
40:33and all i did was study in special house
40:35unit amongst the banging and the
40:36craziness i just read books every single
40:39day they would bring you two books from
40:41the law library and i would read them
40:43from front to back well wait can you
40:44explain for the listeners and for
40:47i think joe knows now but what that
40:49means to be in the special housing unit
40:52uh special housing unit is some call it
40:55the whole some called a punitive
40:56segregation but you are in a very small
40:59box of a cell
41:01for 23 and sometimes 24 hours a day
41:04you're around a bunch of mentally ill
41:06prisoners who throw feces and urine on
41:08you they just burn themselves it's a mad
41:10house um you know they bang loud they
41:13sound like bombs being dropped i mean
41:15it's a it's a very very toxic
41:17environment uh for the prison guards and
41:20prisons alike
41:21um and it's a it's a punitive
41:23a tool that they use
41:25against people that they feel uh have
41:28too much power in the prison or they
41:29don't like you um for me
41:32i was writing
41:33lawsuits i was litigating against the
41:35the conditions in prison so they
41:37targeted me and they always single you
41:39out and say you know what you think
41:40you're tough you think you're gonna be
41:41in the box and i did ten years in there
41:44i did ten years and then it was the most
41:46uh horrific experience in the world but
41:48i made it work um i would roll my
41:50mattress up and i would put all the law
41:53stuff on the bed and i would sit there
41:55and i would work all day i would put ear
41:57plugs in my ear and i would just block
41:59the noise out and work and work and work
42:01and i did some of my best work in
42:02special housing that's it it's
42:04incredible that you had this
42:07this determination and will and drive
42:09and then it never let go
42:11definitely i mean i had no choice i mean
42:13sometimes you put positions uh that you
42:16don't even know your strength until
42:17you're in them yeah and for me i just
42:20didn't know that i had it in me uh but
42:22you know when i got out you know when i
42:24left
42:25um i left with a group of guys that i
42:28pledged that i was coming back to get
42:30i mean these are guys that were innocent
42:32i knew it there were some scarcella
42:34victims
42:34and uh chewbacca shakur was one that we
42:37got out richard rosario was a part of
42:38that team
42:39um and there was many more man that i
42:42just knew that i just couldn't get out
42:44and walk away from these guys uh nelson
42:46cruz we still fighting for this brother
42:48i mean here's a case where scott seller
42:50framed this guy there was a cop who
42:53witnessed the real murderer the cop
42:55caught this guy with a gun in his hand
42:57shooting locked him up
42:59threw him in jail gave him to scott
43:01seller
43:02the gun the murder weapon scott settler
43:04let this guy tell him he didn't do it
43:07that the killer was nelson cruz but why
43:09would he do that you know one of the
43:11things i learned is that
43:13informants right cops protect the
43:15informants they protect the informants
43:18that commit murder
43:19um and then they have to blame it on
43:20somebody to close the case and that
43:22happens a lot right in this case this
43:25guy was informing for them they didn't
43:26want to get him off the street so what
43:28do they do they substitute him for
43:30nelson cruz despite the fact that a
43:32fellow officer
43:33says listen i know who i saw shooting i
43:36witnessed this i saw my own eyes
43:39they let the guy go and locked up nelson
43:42cruz he's still in prison today his
43:44unfortunate is that we went through a
43:45hearing we won and you won't believe
43:47this the judge caught dementia
43:50what the judge caught dementia shaun day
43:54is simpson
43:55and she resigned
43:56on the dementia she had to mention when
43:58she was here in this case and we're
43:59still fighting so i mean the criminal
44:01justice system is broken
44:03um we got to fix it as you said even to
44:06waive the statute of limitations to hold
44:08people accountable to hold prosecutors
44:10accountable to change the 11th amendment
44:12i mean everybody look if you can go
44:13after donald trump right then you can go
44:16after prosecutors and cops you can't
44:18tell me that you can go after trump
44:20today for things that you said he did as
44:21a president but you can let scarcella
44:24get away you can let the prosecutors get
44:26away and you want me to say that that's
44:28okay it's not okay
44:31it's just incredible to me that they'd
44:32be willing just because they want to
44:34keep this guy as a snitch
44:37that they will go out
44:39and convict an innocent person what how
44:41does a person get so jaded
44:45that they're willing and don't care
44:48about putting innocent people behind
44:49bars i mean is their idea that
44:51everybody's guilty of something so it's
44:52okay like what is what's the mindset
44:55that allows a cop to do something like
44:58that the way the system is designed
45:00right cops get
45:02accolades based on arrest prosecutors
45:05based on convictions judges or judges on
45:07based on how fast the case moved to the
45:09system so if you're gonna pat me on my
45:11back as a cop and say good job done and
45:13there's nobody investigating to see
45:15whether or not you did a great job
45:16prosecutors are supposed to investigate
45:18any case that cops bring before them
45:21that's broken they just accept the case
45:23and move on so it's like a game and
45:25they're just trying to score points and
45:26if they can cheat the score points
45:28they'll score points by cheating
45:29absolutely he says political pressure
45:31forget about it
45:33forget about it you you you
45:36this this is like um
45:39the questions that you ask are are so um
45:45they're rhetorical but they're the same
45:47questions that i hear from people that
45:49hear these stories and it's almost like
45:51your defense mechanism as a human being
45:53doesn't want to let you believe right
45:55right that that could be right because
45:57you're taught as a kid cops are here to
46:01serve and protect you
46:03prosecutors are here to get the bad guys
46:06what's woven in here and that we're not
46:08really we're addressing it without
46:10addressing it is is that it is
46:14the racism
46:16that runs rampant in our system
46:18is that
46:20it is
46:21is a very big part of this
46:23a lot of white cops
46:25whether subconsciously or consciously
46:28think the black guy or the brown guy the
46:30latin guy did it
46:31um there is a huge that's one you know
46:35it's a messy stew
46:37there's one part of it a large part of
46:39it i'm sure is what you just said it's
46:42you do not see the human cost
46:46that you that a prosecution of a human
46:48being leaves in its wake and these
46:51prosecutors get accolades for
46:53convictions and it is a game it's about
46:56wins and losses
46:57for cops it's about arrest and yes it it
47:00it taps into something primal
47:02that
47:03you know winning is good losing is bad
47:06and it's a messy stew and i used to
47:09think that sometimes cops were out to
47:11frame people i don't think it's always
47:13that i think that they think that their
47:15hunch is better than evidence and they
47:17make those me the ends justify the means
47:20but you can't ignore any one of these
47:23factors look
47:24you and i had had a discussion
47:26um not on the podcast
47:29about brittany griner right
47:32and
47:33you know i think
47:35we all agree as human beings that
47:39she
47:40it's it's insane
47:42it's not the word doesn't give it
47:44justice it's it's horrific
47:47it's
47:48you know every adjective that you can
47:49pull it's a nightmare for her
47:53and you asked me a question
47:56that um i think you asked it you you
47:58articulated on the podcast and you and i
48:00were texting about it which is that you
48:02know
48:03this happens here
48:05and yes she's getting attention because
48:06she's in russia it's a political thing
48:08it's in vogue and i want her to get out
48:11of course more than anyone
48:13but there are way worse situations here
48:16in this country
48:17i sent you some of these cases so i i
48:19went down i went down a bit of a rabbit
48:23hole and i said you know there's got to
48:24be
48:26some
48:27um
48:28there has to be someone that has studied
48:31the disparity
48:33between
48:34the sentences that black men and women
48:37get for marijuana possession
48:40or marijuana
48:43you know marijuana convictions
48:45versus white people
48:47and derek found a study that i have with
48:50me and when i read it i you know i kept
48:53on saying this can't is this this this
48:55is unbelievable it was commissioned by
48:58the aclu from 2010 to 2018.
49:02and they examined this from every angle
49:05they took the the crystal ball and they
49:08turned it around and then they turned it
49:10over and then they looked at the inside
49:12of it they looked at it from every angle
49:14okay
49:15does did the decriminalization
49:17of marijuana reduce the number of
49:19arrests overall yes slightly
49:23did it reduce the number the ratio
49:27of arrests when you look at black people
49:30that are arrested for marijuana
49:31possession
49:32as opposed to white people and the
49:34resounding answer is no if you are a
49:36black person in this country
49:39and you are caught
49:41possessing marijuana you are three and a
49:44half times more likely to a get arrested
49:48and b get a disproportionate sentence
49:51and if anybody is interested in the
49:52report it's called the aclu aclu
49:55research report a tale of two countries
49:58racially targeted arrests in the era of
50:00marijuana reform it will blow your
50:03[ __ ] mind
50:04it is it when they went down to a level
50:08of granularity that you would expect
50:11from a rigorous research study they said
50:13okay well do white people possess weed
50:16more
50:17than black people or do black people
50:19because if you would think that if black
50:21folks
50:22possessed more marijuana they would get
50:24arrested at a higher rate the answer is
50:26no white people do
50:28you know and you cannot look at these
50:30statistics and not be outraged and say
50:34okay we have a problem here in this
50:36country
50:37this our criminal justice system is
50:39infected
50:41by racism
50:42it doesn't just stay in one segment of
50:45society they looked at the arrest rate
50:48right the black white ratio in table six
50:51of this report from 2010 to 2018
50:55the arrest per 100 000 may go down
50:59but black people get arrested in this
51:01country for marijuana possession in the
51:04same scenario
51:063.6 times more than white people they
51:09broke it down state by state i brought
51:11it because i wanted to leave it with you
51:13and you know they went down to states
51:16with the highest black arrest rates for
51:18marijuana possession states with the
51:20largest increases in racial disparities
51:23i mean a lot of this [ __ ] is happening
51:25in the south it's happening to black
51:27people they're being brutalized by our
51:30criminal justice system and unless
51:32people are willing to wake up to that
51:34fact i mean we're in
51:362022
51:37where
51:39marijuana is legal in many states
51:41decriminalized and many others and so
51:44getting back to desantis i'm not beating
51:46up on him if you really cared about
51:48removing a state attorney and you want
51:51to
51:51you know do something right you know
51:54decriminalizing in the entire state
51:56how many people
51:57you know what imagine this this is who
52:00this guy is and i'm just calling it like
52:02i see him i've met him i've met with him
52:05he is the jerk at work
52:07you know everybody has that person that
52:09is just an [ __ ] at work
52:12and is always telling on people and
52:14causing a [ __ ] problem and and
52:17looking to be difficult that's who this
52:19guy is
52:21he he has a bad temperament he doesn't
52:24have patience
52:26i i mean i was there meeting with him as
52:28a favor to one from one of his biggest
52:30donors he had no patience with me and
52:33why was i there i was there because i
52:35wanted him to simply give me a clemency
52:38hearing i wasn't asking for anything i
52:40wasn't saying please
52:42commute the sentence of this innocent
52:43man james daley who i know is innocent
52:46i was just there to say just hold the
52:48hearing and let me show you as derek
52:50said the merits let me just show you the
52:52merits of the case
52:54the only person that would meet with me
52:56on the clemency board and hear me out is
52:58a woman that's running for governor in
53:00florida named nikki freed she's the
53:02[ __ ] commissioner of agriculture she
53:04didn't need to meet with me she met with
53:06me for three and a half hours
53:08with her general counsel
53:10with other members of her clemency team
53:12i'm supporting her
53:14because i'm you know
53:16something that i'm interested in she
53:18paid attention to
53:19and she said there's a problem here we
53:22have to hear people out this is before
53:24she had intentions to run for governor
53:27and now you know she's neck and neck
53:29with charlie crist in florida people
53:31want to make change happen
53:33you know take a look at her she's an
53:35interesting alternative she was a she
53:37was a public defender i think she then
53:40became a prosecutor she gets it from all
53:42angles she's a commissioner of
53:43agriculture and she's not a politician
53:46the thing that bothers me
53:47is that when you look at
53:49racial disparities
53:51in marijuana possession arrests
53:54you know what's happening in the south
53:56in this country pickens county georgia
53:59the arrest rate
54:00for black people caught possessing
54:03marijuana you're 97 times more likely to
54:06get arrested if you're black possessing
54:08marijuana the face that you just made is
54:11what happened in my [ __ ] heart when i
54:13read it you know in in illinois
54:16people wonder that you know like it's
54:18like a popular thing for white people to
54:20say
54:21is like when they're in
54:23social circles where they don't think
54:25anyone's listening
54:26[ __ ] black people are killing each
54:28other in chicago right well you know in
54:31in
54:32taswell county illinois
54:34you're 43 times more likely to be
54:37arrested
54:39if you're black and caught with weed
54:41than if you're white
54:42there's i mean we have a broken system
54:45and if people aren't willing to step up
54:48and recognize that this report confirmed
54:51what i already thought and knew
54:53but if people aren't willing to
54:54recognize and say okay well how do we go
54:56about fixing it you know the
54:58legislatures pass laws that are made by
55:01people
55:02and are conjured up by people they get
55:05in a room and they sit there with a pen
55:07and paper and they come up with a law
55:09and then we try to get them passed
55:11you're absolutely right there should be
55:12no statute of limitations for a cop like
55:14louis scarcella who has [ __ ] ruined
55:17the lives of a generation of people
55:20and i would like to just add that that
55:22those stats just don't apply to
55:24marijuana if you go to the almanac those
55:26stats apply to all crimes around the
55:28board
55:29that black people are being arrested
55:31uh in some instances when you look at
55:33almanac white people are being arrested
55:35more but convicted less of the same
55:37crimes so it's just it's just systemic
55:40it's systemic racism um as you said is
55:42tribal right people tend to go with
55:45their tribe more than others right and
55:47then if you port that plays another role
55:50whether you white or black right if you
55:52poor you can't get the money to defend
55:54yourselves so you do you relying on who
55:57a public defender or somebody who a
55:59judge has to sign off on their their
56:02money to get paid
56:03right so you still stuck i had a 18b
56:06lawyer which is a county lawyer one time
56:09come to me on a motion that i made pro
56:11se and say the judge told me
56:13that he's going to deny your emotion no
56:15matter what we do
56:17she was scared to death he was signing
56:19her voucher
56:20she was scared what did i do when
56:23writing the court and said it judge this
56:25lawyer just told me that you're going to
56:26deny emotion no matter what we do and
56:29she says i never said that judge and i
56:31said well she's a liar and that's the
56:33reason why i don't want to own my case
56:34imagine that she'd be removed there's a
56:36conflict but she was so afraid
56:39she was so scared
56:41that this judge
56:43had already told her what the
56:44disposition she didn't know what to do
56:46and this happens every day and if you
56:47pour
56:48you don't have a chance and there's also
56:50racial disparity that's clearly written
56:53in the law when it comes to the
56:54difference between the way they
56:55recognize crack cocaine versus regular
56:58cocaine there's a far greater sentence
57:01for crack cocaine but if you talk to an
57:04actual person who understands the
57:06effects of the drug like dr carl hart he
57:09will tell you it is exactly the same
57:11drug
57:12it's the same drug but the conviction
57:15what you get if you get convicted for
57:17crack cocaine like you would probably
57:19know this better than i yes it's far
57:22greater sentence far more likely he can
57:24be convicted far greater sentence and it
57:27directly impacts impoverished
57:30communities yes and thank you bill
57:31clinton and joe biden yeah and and a
57:34whole score of other democrats that the
57:3794 crimes yeah the 94 crime bill was
57:41a [ __ ] disaster so that's why it
57:44enrages me
57:45well it doesn't enrage me let's say it
57:47it frustrates me it approaches me it
57:49raises me you know
57:54we had this talk last night i said if i
57:55was a black man in this country i don't
57:57know how he holds it together but i i
57:59was you know what what ends up
58:01what ends up
58:04always
58:05blowing me away is what i think you
58:07touched on earlier
58:08because it's like this
58:10how do you find a silver lining
58:13you know i don't think there's any
58:14silver lining to a life that has been
58:16damaged the way derek's life has been
58:18damaged and as tough as he is
58:20somewhere under there he he hurts in a
58:22way that we'll never understand
58:25but i was watching these students we got
58:28five college students
58:30who would never have got this
58:31opportunity
58:34just wouldn't have got this opportunity
58:35to sit there if they weren't part of
58:37jay-z's scholarship and his mom gloria
58:39carter was just a wonderful woman and
58:41this woman dania diaz and said let's see
58:44what happens when we give people an
58:46opportunity and i watch five college
58:48juniors that are going into their senior
58:51year of college some of them shy and
58:53timid
58:54um
58:55some of them who were in intimidated by
58:58the notion that they would be working on
58:59a legal case
59:01start to realize like this this guy
59:04bruce bryan and if people that are
59:06interested should go to the just go to
59:07free bruce bryant there's a clemency
59:09petition for him i can't to talk too
59:12much about his innocence case but he he
59:15has been called by the press the poster
59:17child for clemency in new york
59:19there's stunning evidence of his
59:22innocence
59:23they
59:24quickly got
59:25to the main facts of the case and were
59:28able to start
59:29solving it these are college juniors and
59:33they said you know who brings he was
59:34accused of being a shooter
59:36in a murder
59:38in which he's alleged to have brought
59:41his girlfriend in a cab
59:43where he was exchanging a halloween
59:45costume for his niece and the first
59:48question from the shyest kid in this
59:50group said
59:51who in the world would bring their
59:53girlfriend to a pre-planned shootout and
59:56exchange a halloween costume in the
59:57meantime
59:59and they started to find inconsistencies
1:00:01in the testimony of people that claimed
1:00:03they saw him didn't see him and you know
1:00:07really
1:00:08it was like a a a stunning reminder to
1:00:11me that if we just give people the
1:00:12opportunity derek was forced into the
1:00:15opportunity i told him i did a day in
1:00:17jail i was a [ __ ] puddle i was a mess
1:00:21and i don't know how he was able to
1:00:24summon the strength
1:00:25you know to
1:00:27survive let alone have the discipline
1:00:30to plug he was telling me about when he
1:00:32was in the hole
1:00:35about how
1:00:36there was a guy in the cell next to him
1:00:39you know it was a fascinating analogy he
1:00:41gave me he said it's like social media
1:00:44is that there's some voice in the
1:00:46darkness that you'll never meet them
1:00:48you'll never see them but they can
1:00:50criticize you and get under your skin
1:00:52and call you names and say nasty [ __ ]
1:00:54about you
1:00:55looking for a reaction and they
1:00:57sometimes get it and that
1:00:59emboldens them more he said it was the
1:01:01same thing
1:01:02when i was in the hole you'd have
1:01:04someone next to me
1:01:06yelling terrible [ __ ]
1:01:08i'm gonna [ __ ] your wife i'm gonna do
1:01:10this to your daughter
1:01:11you know and taunting you
1:01:14and
1:01:14being able to
1:01:16distinguish between anger
1:01:19and the the recognition or the
1:01:21realization i'll never be able to
1:01:24confront this person it's just a voice
1:01:27out there
1:01:28that is sick in the head obviously and
1:01:30is trying to get a reaction out of me
1:01:32and derek was telling me how it forced
1:01:34him
1:01:35into patience
1:01:37and it forced him to be able to develop
1:01:39the skill at drowning out
1:01:42the background noise
1:01:44and because i'm he to me
1:01:46i i mean it must be annoying because i'm
1:01:49always asking him questions like
1:01:51how did you do it it's the same thing
1:01:53you were getting and how do you summon
1:01:55the strength to be able to overcome and
1:01:58if people like him can overcome people
1:02:00that were born into the worst
1:02:01circumstances born into a a poor
1:02:05background
1:02:06a system built against him
1:02:08you know if we just start changing that
1:02:10paradigm
1:02:12you know don't we want everyone around
1:02:14us
1:02:15to succeed and have the same chance that
1:02:17we have
1:02:18you know it's just it's it's hard to
1:02:20to not sound corny about it but like i i
1:02:24always tell people
1:02:26that like i've heard criticisms of you
1:02:28joe before and i say to people you have
1:02:30no [ __ ] clue who this man is you know
1:02:34how rare it is
1:02:35to come across a human being that wants
1:02:38other people to do well
1:02:41we're almost hardwired to want to tear
1:02:43each other down because of our
1:02:44insecurities you genuinely want to see
1:02:46people do well and it's like i was
1:02:48telling derek that about you it's like
1:02:51he genuinely wants to see people do well
1:02:54and it comes from the heart and you know
1:02:56if he's not an inspiring example of what
1:03:00we can all aspire to
1:03:02and and overcome and and doesn't open
1:03:05some eyes to say you know if i just give
1:03:07someone a chance
1:03:08they can do it
1:03:10you know whatever the it is well people
1:03:12don't understand what that means they
1:03:14think that wanting someone to do well
1:03:16and somehow another takes away from you
1:03:18but it doesn't it boosts you it helps
1:03:20you the more people do well the better
1:03:22you'll do
1:03:23but that's a competitor's understanding
1:03:26of the the nature of the circle that you
1:03:29surround yourself in you should always
1:03:31be around people that are killing it
1:03:33because then you want to kill it right
1:03:35you you should always be around people
1:03:36that are kind and people that are
1:03:38generous because you know that feeling
1:03:39you get when you go god damn what a
1:03:41[ __ ] great guy i want to be a great
1:03:43guy it's it's good for you it's good for
1:03:45everybody right the the person that only
1:03:47wants to be the man wants everything for
1:03:50themselves and wants to be selfish and
1:03:52cut everybody down that's a lonely sad
1:03:54[ __ ] person that's a that's a
1:03:56terrible place to be it's terrible for
1:03:58yourself it's a selfish thing to be kind
1:04:01it's a selfish thing to be generous it's
1:04:03great for you it's great for everyone
1:04:05else too though
1:04:07it's like there's a there's a
1:04:08selfishness in it because like i
1:04:11genuinely love the feeling when i can
1:04:14help people i genuinely love the feeling
1:04:16of whether it's uh
1:04:18helping people express themselves on a
1:04:20podcast or elevate a comedian's career
1:04:23or or just help someone out that i know
1:04:25needs some help that is a it's a great
1:04:28feeling but why is it so rare then
1:04:30because they don't understand what it is
1:04:31people have been taught that there's a
1:04:33scarcity they've been taught this famine
1:04:34mentality it's wrong it's we're a
1:04:37community we're a community as a country
1:04:39where community is a world and if we
1:04:41don't look at it that way we're always
1:04:43going to be stuck in this lonely
1:04:46sad position where you think of the
1:04:48world as your enemy the world's not your
1:04:50enemy the world's filled with potential
1:04:51best friends that's right the world's
1:04:53filled with your brothers and sisters
1:04:54the world is filled with people who when
1:04:57they do great it'll make you feel
1:04:58fantastic
1:05:00yeah and i don't look
1:05:02i have to say that i think that it comes
1:05:04with with
1:05:06security too like i know that times when
1:05:08i have
1:05:09fallen victim to like hoping someone
1:05:11doesn't do great it's because of your my
1:05:13own insecurities would lead me there
1:05:16true and then and like derek and i are
1:05:17like brothers and and it wasn't like it
1:05:20hasn't been like a like when i first met
1:05:22derek i was like this [ __ ] guy seems
1:05:24angry
1:05:25he seems angry how could he not be i
1:05:27could not be right how could he not be
1:05:2830 [ __ ] years in jail for [ __ ] he
1:05:30didn't do it's amazing how not angry he
1:05:33is that's the the true testament to your
1:05:36character
1:05:36is that you've been able to overcome
1:05:38that and become this person who you are
1:05:40now
1:05:41absolutely that's a that's a lesson for
1:05:43everyone and again that's for all the
1:05:45people that if you can get a hold of
1:05:47this if you're in prison and you're
1:05:49hearing this you can be like derek
1:05:52everyone can figure
1:05:54there's a path that you can be a better
1:05:56person there's a path that you could be
1:05:58more educated more understanding more
1:06:00compassionate
1:06:02there's a path for everybody to be a
1:06:03better person how did you get over the
1:06:05anger though that's what i don't
1:06:07understand like how you nod i never said
1:06:09i got over the anger what i did was
1:06:11challenge the anger somewhere else
1:06:13fueled it yeah yeah i didn't i didn't
1:06:14get over that anger i mean i do what i
1:06:16do my passion is is a direct
1:06:19line of that anger um you know one of
1:06:21the things we know and i'm gonna say
1:06:23wait i'm talking about is black people
1:06:24right we believe that the system was
1:06:26designed the way that it is that it
1:06:28didn't happen by happenstance right so
1:06:30when you know that you work to change
1:06:32the system i work to change the system
1:06:34so that my kids would get a better
1:06:35opportunity their kids to get a better
1:06:37opportunity and that we can together
1:06:39jail as human beings if i don't do the
1:06:42work what good is me criticizing it
1:06:43right if i be angry and upset and grab a
1:06:46gun and become some animal that doesn't
1:06:48help the society it doesn't help the
1:06:50criminal justice system so again i had
1:06:52to really really think about let me tell
1:06:54you i'm the first person to tell you
1:06:57that i had fantasies of killing the cop
1:07:01i had fallacies of killing the
1:07:02prosecutor i wouldn't spoke to mental
1:07:04health people and said listen i can't
1:07:06sleep at night all i think about is
1:07:08killing these guys when i get out of
1:07:09here
1:07:10oh you know what you know what the the
1:07:11social worker told me at a correctional
1:07:13facility i looked at your record and
1:07:16it's what guys like you do
1:07:18right and this is why until today
1:07:20right i got a trauma about speaking to
1:07:22mental health people because this is
1:07:24somebody i went to
1:07:26to say no i can't sleep at night i have
1:07:28fantasies about killing scarcely you
1:07:30think i didn't
1:07:31fantasies right had a whole list of
1:07:33people that i was going to kill but it
1:07:35was a program that i went to when i was
1:07:36in prison called challenge the change i
1:07:39went to the program solely for the
1:07:40purpose to see if they can change that
1:07:42in my mind and they did
1:07:45and you know how they did it
1:07:46they had me put the people that i love
1:07:48my kids up on the board
1:07:50they said put down the people that you
1:07:52love up there and think about how it
1:07:53would affect them
1:07:55what would happen you already did these
1:07:56many years and i had a daughter that's
1:07:58that's 30 years old now
1:08:00and i was telling her for 21 years i was
1:08:02coming home
1:08:04every year i'm thinking i'm coming home
1:08:05i'm following these motions they're
1:08:07great emotions it's impossible for the
1:08:08judge to deny it right
1:08:10and at some point she said she's a liar
1:08:13you've been telling me for 21 years
1:08:15you're coming home
1:08:17that you are a liar
1:08:20how do you deal with that
1:08:24what was it like the day you got out
1:08:27you know it was the most rewarding
1:08:30experience ever
1:08:32um it was it was you know what's the
1:08:35first thing you did
1:08:36you know there was bells i tell you
1:08:37psychologically you know there was bells
1:08:39ringing
1:08:40uh it was a church bells that used to
1:08:43ring an auburn corrections facility
1:08:45and i used to say well you know what
1:08:48when the bells ring i'm going to pray
1:08:50and hopefully there's a god out there
1:08:53he'll hear my prayer
1:08:55right that was my spiritual analysis
1:08:58and the first thing i did when i went
1:09:00out was found that church and went over
1:09:02there and said a prayer my wife picked
1:09:04me up
1:09:05we went down to see my kids in albany on
1:09:07the way down to the city i had dinner
1:09:09with my son who i haven't had dinner
1:09:10with in 21 years
1:09:12and my other son came to visit me and i
1:09:15just sat there and had the first we went
1:09:18to
1:09:18uh seafood joint what's the name but i
1:09:21forget it this popular one you went
1:09:23there and had a seafood dinner
1:09:25and you know i tell you there's a video
1:09:28of me getting out
1:09:30and i'm moving so fast i almost got hit
1:09:32by a [ __ ] car across the street
1:09:34but even that was was a blessing to be
1:09:36able to almost get hit by a car
1:09:38and just to spend time with my wife and
1:09:41my kids
1:09:42i mean it was the most rewarding
1:09:43experience ever
1:09:45and and you know from that moment like i
1:09:46said i knew what i wanted to do
1:09:48uh i just went ahead look just the fact
1:09:51that i could stop in albany and then
1:09:53rekindle with my son
1:09:55uh and just have a moment with my kids
1:09:57man that was the most rewarding
1:09:59experience ever for me it was everything
1:10:01what's the bottleneck
1:10:03josh in terms of
1:10:05resources
1:10:07to to to elevate this to get more people
1:10:10out to get more funds to do what can we
1:10:13do
1:10:14where we can amplify this
1:10:18get more people involved yeah well i
1:10:20think
1:10:21one big step is i always thank you and i
1:10:24don't i don't think that there's
1:10:26there should be a limit to my gratitude
1:10:28being on on this podcast
1:10:31is is the best example because i don't
1:10:34think we would have got the two
1:10:35exonerations in kansas without the
1:10:37attention and i think we need to keep
1:10:39the drum beat going so i'm forever and
1:10:42and continually grateful to you for
1:10:43giving me a platform but i think that in
1:10:46addition to that more people need to
1:10:49understand that they can help make the
1:10:51change happen so i again we can't
1:10:54announce the name we have been sworn to
1:10:56secrecy but derek and i
1:10:58um are
1:11:00on the precipice of starting a very
1:11:02major legal justice center at a major
1:11:05law school together where i'll be the
1:11:08executive director and he'll be the
1:11:09deputy director
1:11:11and it was funded by someone who had
1:11:13this experience where they were
1:11:15wrongfully accused of a crime and had
1:11:17the resources to fight it and has now
1:11:19funded it
1:11:21and we need you know donations always
1:11:24help because the more resources you have
1:11:26the more attorneys you can hire
1:11:29but it needs the the public awareness
1:11:32and then it needs to
1:11:35keep the drum beat of pressure going
1:11:37because we know that works derek
1:11:39mentioned the daily news article that
1:11:42got the parole board's attention
1:11:44getting these stories out there work
1:11:46there are guys that we have talked about
1:11:48and we might as well do it because we're
1:11:50here okay and we're here to try to get
1:11:52the word out there are stories of cases
1:11:55that are out there now you said this
1:11:57can't be true and then i sent you the
1:12:00the joe schilling case right
1:12:02where joe schilling is serving life in
1:12:05prison
1:12:06right after being convicted of having an
1:12:08ounce and a half of weed and had his
1:12:11appeal denied and you wrote to me is
1:12:14this true and then i sent you the
1:12:15opinion
1:12:17and you know
1:12:18joe schilling is like
1:12:21an example this happened in mississippi
1:12:23this is what happens to to black men in
1:12:25the south and joe schilling is is is an
1:12:28example of a case where if enough people
1:12:32write to the clemency board write to the
1:12:34governor
1:12:35somebody will pay attention at some
1:12:37point
1:12:38and here's a guy where they look at you
1:12:42know things that he has done in the past
1:12:44and they say well it wasn't just this
1:12:46marijuana conviction he was also
1:12:48involved in an armed robbery right well
1:12:51he wasn't involved in an armed robbery
1:12:53when you say involved you picture
1:12:55stick them up here's a gun or a knife
1:12:58you know there are different levels of
1:12:59involvement and people make mistakes so
1:13:02you don't use those past mistakes as a
1:13:04way to shoehorn them in
1:13:06to throwing their life away right so i
1:13:09think actually for something so [ __ ]
1:13:11innocuous it should be legal anyway well
1:13:14think about it this way
1:13:16how if you really want to do something
1:13:18to change
1:13:20the the the rate of
1:13:23deaths in this country
1:13:25the rate of uh violence in this country
1:13:28and you really are not a hypocrite
1:13:31you'll ban alcohol
1:13:33all right because alcohol causes a lot
1:13:36more accidental deaths because of drunk
1:13:38driving it rat there's not a lot of
1:13:41people that are sitting there smoking
1:13:43weed getting in their car and blowing up
1:13:45another car in a family there's you know
1:13:48the biggest
1:13:49the biggest victims of
1:13:51marijuana smoking are [ __ ] potato
1:13:54chips and chocolate you know i mean it's
1:13:56like what what the [ __ ] are we talking
1:13:59about here right so here you're throwing
1:14:01away a life
1:14:03and saying oh well this is because of
1:14:05what you did before he's one joe
1:14:07schilling's case should be
1:14:09advertised it should be there should be
1:14:12letters flowing in by the hundreds of
1:14:14thousands
1:14:15so the bottleneck
1:14:17is i think and maybe i sound
1:14:20um
1:14:22a little bit arrogant in saying this
1:14:24but you'll correct me and be my reality
1:14:27check both of you the bottleneck is not
1:14:29having the [ __ ] balls
1:14:32to stand up and say i am going to speak
1:14:34truth to power
1:14:35and i am going to tell you this is not
1:14:38okay
1:14:39and i've had my life threatened i have
1:14:41had my
1:14:42uh families threatened because i will
1:14:45speak truth to power and i look i wear
1:14:48like a badge of honor
1:14:49and you know derek told these students
1:14:52because they said well what if we get
1:14:53emotional he said if this this business
1:14:56is not for the faint of heart you can
1:14:58get emotional
1:14:59and you can be sympathetic but it just
1:15:02takes more caring and more doing so the
1:15:05more people that can write the clemency
1:15:07boards the more people that can say i'm
1:15:09not going to vote in a tribal way the
1:15:12more people that say you know what i can
1:15:13do better
1:15:15as a leader by running for all by
1:15:17running for office
1:15:19do it
1:15:20we all we all feel like it's for someone
1:15:23else
1:15:24you know but like this happened to you
1:15:28right did you ever think you would reach
1:15:30this many people
1:15:32i don't know if you did or not no all
1:15:34right
1:15:36this is accidental all right well purely
1:15:39purely accidental but there was a point
1:15:41in which
1:15:42you me derek we have all said to
1:15:45ourselves how did this happen to me
1:15:47right right and i and i have come to the
1:15:50realization well if not me then who
1:15:53if not now then when
1:15:55it happened to me now i'm going to use
1:15:56my voice to try to empower other people
1:15:59and you know i think that we get caught
1:16:01up in mediocrity
1:16:03and i think that we settle for
1:16:04mediocrity as human beings
1:16:07right that's what sort of like keeps the
1:16:08classes in check
1:16:10you know you don't have to be great or
1:16:12powerful or omniscient to make change
1:16:14happen you just have to
1:16:16break from what's expected
1:16:19you know like
1:16:20i broke from some of my parents
1:16:23expectations
1:16:25and as a result of that they evolved
1:16:29you know sometimes you're afraid of the
1:16:31backlash you know i remember like there
1:16:34were there were certain things about
1:16:36marrying within your religious faith
1:16:39and i remember the first time i dated a
1:16:40cuban girl
1:16:42my mom had a reaction
1:16:44and said you know
1:16:47aren't you going to marry
1:16:48someone that's jewish and i said
1:16:52i have i abandoned organized religion
1:16:54when i was 13. it's the most
1:16:56hypocritical thing
1:16:57[Music]
1:16:58imaginable to me
1:17:00and i remember going
1:17:02to her
1:17:04to my girlfriend's house
1:17:05in college and they were roasting a pig
1:17:09and
1:17:10i remember my mom remember like this
1:17:12jewish lady from long island oh my god
1:17:15there's a pig in the ground
1:17:17what kind of people do this and i said
1:17:21people want delicious food
1:17:23i said let me ask you a question she's
1:17:25like are you going to get married to
1:17:26someone that i said
1:17:29i'm more catholic than i am jewish at
1:17:31this point and and my credit to my mom
1:17:34because what she did was she evolved she
1:17:37said you know
1:17:39you're right
1:17:40i haven't been to temple
1:17:42in 30 years
1:17:44wow i don't know even why i think this
1:17:48other than that this is how i was raised
1:17:51and i watched her evolve to the point
1:17:53where when i finally got married to my
1:17:54wife
1:17:55the fact that she was christian and that
1:17:58a judge married us in a
1:18:00non-denominational ceremony that was
1:18:02more human than it was religious it
1:18:04wasn't even an issue
1:18:06so if we're willing to like break from
1:18:09what's expected of us and the norm
1:18:11you know and i had a dad my dad recently
1:18:14passed
1:18:16you know
1:18:16that he was
1:18:19a complicated dude but i you know like
1:18:21we
1:18:21we
1:18:23draw off of things that happened to us i
1:18:25remember in college
1:18:27i was home
1:18:29for thanksgiving
1:18:30and my mom sent my dad off to home depot
1:18:34to get light bulbs because the light
1:18:36bulbs in the living room burned out
1:18:38and uh he comes back from home depot
1:18:41with these two young black guys
1:18:43that were selling
1:18:46that were selling these key they were
1:18:48like keyboards with a flip up screen
1:18:50that could connect to the internet at
1:18:52the time
1:18:53it was like
1:18:54he felt
1:18:56bad for them because he's like these
1:18:58guys were out here in the head in the
1:18:59[ __ ] florida heat in november
1:19:01and he's like they had nowhere to go for
1:19:02thanksgiving
1:19:04and it was like my mom was like what the
1:19:06[ __ ] are you doing you just take home
1:19:08two strangers and he's like they need
1:19:11food for thanksgiving they need to be
1:19:12here then it's human compassion this is
1:19:16part of who we are as human beings and
1:19:18it was like it was nuts it was like a it
1:19:21was like a [ __ ] seinfeld episode
1:19:24but i was like wow this [ __ ] guy who
1:19:27does that
1:19:28i mean
1:19:29what he does after is he goes and drives
1:19:31him home and comes back two hours later
1:19:33blazing high and he's like i smoke
1:19:36something called the kryptos were done
1:19:38you know
1:19:39yeah the nice time that's it
1:19:41got arrested yeah that's where i got
1:19:43that's where my mom's like
1:19:45what kind of an [ __ ] does that but it
1:19:47was like you know i think that we we
1:19:50evolve
1:19:51and then we teach our parents and our
1:19:53parents evolve it's like you have to not
1:19:55be afraid to do things that are outside
1:19:57of
1:19:58what's expected or the norm and look
1:20:01outside of how you were raised yeah
1:20:05yeah it's uh there's moments in your
1:20:07life right where you
1:20:09you realize that maybe the path that
1:20:11you're on is not the best path and maybe
1:20:13you should change a little bit of it
1:20:15maybe you should recognize that there's
1:20:17some information that you're getting
1:20:19from other people
1:20:21alter your case all to your course and
1:20:23be open i mean the main thing is to be
1:20:24open don't have a closed mind
1:20:27uh where you can't be willing to accept
1:20:29the change yeah and you know as josh was
1:20:31saying be involved there's so many of
1:20:33these cases running around uh in every
1:20:35state
1:20:36um some states don't have what they call
1:20:39actual innocence provisions like saint
1:20:40louis right the judge in saint louis
1:20:43found the god christopher done innocent
1:20:45but because st louis doesn't have an
1:20:47actual innocent statue he left him in
1:20:49jail people should be outraged about
1:20:51stuff like that would explain that like
1:20:54how does that work
1:20:55name the case because christopher dunn
1:20:57is his name it's in st louis
1:21:00and in this particular case the judge
1:21:02heard the evidence
1:21:03found the guy innocent put in his
1:21:05opinion and said this guy is innocent
1:21:07however because saint louis doesn't have
1:21:09a statue that permits me to let innocent
1:21:12people go why he stays in jail how is
1:21:15that possible
1:21:16and and this is the problem right this
1:21:18is the problem with our criminal justice
1:21:19system they have procedural bars they
1:21:22have laws
1:21:23and laws sometimes limit the power of
1:21:26judges this is why it's so important to
1:21:28have legislators right to enact laws
1:21:30that says innocence is the most
1:21:32fundamental to our criminal justice
1:21:34system every state right now should pass
1:21:36laws that says no innocence person
1:21:38should stay in jail no matter what right
1:21:40they don't have that the supreme court
1:21:43and in retro davis in 2008 2009 made
1:21:47that decision that's how i was able to
1:21:49go to the appellate division and get
1:21:50that decision in 2014. that said in new
1:21:53york innocent people case have to be
1:21:55heard every state should have laws like
1:21:57this right when they don't have laws
1:21:59like this it gives an exception to
1:22:01judges excuse to say i'm not going to
1:22:03let them go because there's no statute
1:22:05that says that innocent people have to
1:22:07be let go is it possible for the judge
1:22:09to let them go anyway even without the
1:22:10statute i would say yes i would say that
1:22:13judges have discretion right you have
1:22:16discretion do it unless some court
1:22:18reverse you but have the courage to say
1:22:21how would you say a guy is innocent
1:22:22right as a human being forget the judge
1:22:24factor right right and you leave him in
1:22:26jail right and this doesn't just happen
1:22:28in st louis it happens everywhere what
1:22:30happened in the supreme court recently
1:22:32yes yes i mean this is not a political
1:22:35thing right i think donald trump look he
1:22:38granted clemency to a man that now works
1:22:40for me he was a beautiful guy juwah musa
1:22:43i think that donald trump had the
1:22:45courage that president obama president
1:22:48clinton nobody had i agree to pass the
1:22:50first step act i agree a lot of our
1:22:52friends and clients have gotten out i
1:22:54agree but he also appointed a bunch of
1:22:56[ __ ] nut job supreme court justices
1:22:59who recently
1:23:01published an opinion that said innocence
1:23:03doesn't matter
1:23:05they literally wrote the words
1:23:07innocence doesn't what supreme court
1:23:10judges did that
1:23:12which ones
1:23:13i will give it to you in a minute all
1:23:15the ones that you would expect it was
1:23:17kavanaugh
1:23:19it was he wrote the opinion he wrote
1:23:20kavanaugh wrote the opinion innocence
1:23:22does not matter how how can someone say
1:23:24innocence doesn't matter what the whole
1:23:26idea behind the legal system is to find
1:23:29out who
1:23:30is guilty of a crime
1:23:32and convict them and i don't care by the
1:23:34way about that public circus about
1:23:36kavanaugh's past that's not what i'm
1:23:38glomming on to i'm looking at this
1:23:40opinion he was basically saying that if
1:23:43you do the spirit of the opinion and
1:23:45derek will pull it up
1:23:47was that if you cannot
1:23:49overcome the procedural bars so in other
1:23:52words if you are time barred right
1:23:56to file your claim
1:23:58that we cannot let innocence
1:24:00get in the way of the rules of criminal
1:24:03procedures explain time barred so time
1:24:05barred means it's the same thing as the
1:24:06statute of limitations
1:24:08so
1:24:09you have to raise
1:24:11um
1:24:12claims of
1:24:13newly discovered evidence within a
1:24:15certain period of time in most states
1:24:18okay and in most federal jurisdictions
1:24:21and if you don't
1:24:23if you are in possession or should have
1:24:25been in possession of this newly
1:24:27discovered evidence and you don't file
1:24:29it in a timely manner and raise it it's
1:24:32deemed waived
1:24:33so what the opinion was basically saying
1:24:35was that we cannot let innocence
1:24:39or the fact that someone may be
1:24:40innocents trump these procedural hurdles
1:24:44so in other words rules exist for a
1:24:47reason and if we don't follow those
1:24:49rules just because somebody might be
1:24:52innocent and just because there's
1:24:54compelling evidence of their innocence
1:24:56does not mean that we are going to let
1:24:59that get in the way of these procedural
1:25:01rules this isn't made up people can go
1:25:03and look at the opinion cap kavanaugh
1:25:06wrote the opinion it was split along
1:25:08party lines yeah thomas and forever
1:25:10judges was involved shin versus ramirez
1:25:12was the case
1:25:13uh was a guy on arizona death row and
1:25:16you know you got to look at
1:25:1828 usc 2254 is the habeas corporate
1:25:22statue in the feds if you're a state
1:25:24prisoner coming to the fred's asking for
1:25:26relief and they've been watering that
1:25:28down for years basically saying uh that
1:25:30state should be to one decide this thing
1:25:32that you shouldn't be able to come to
1:25:33the federal court to get relief and
1:25:36let's just explain for the listeners
1:25:38what habeas corpus relief is
1:25:41habeas corpus means i think the latin
1:25:44translation is possession of the body
1:25:47okay
1:25:47so that is your last ditch effort to try
1:25:51to get relief from a federal court
1:25:54saying that you are possessing my body
1:25:57in a way that violates my rights
1:26:00you have my corpus
1:26:02right
1:26:03so when you raise a habeas or a habe
1:26:06it's often referred to petition you're
1:26:08basically throwing everything against
1:26:10the wall and saying please look at the
1:26:12merits of the case
1:26:14i may be time barred i may have violated
1:26:16a procedural deadline but if you just
1:26:20look at the evidence i'm innocent and
1:26:22what the supreme court decision says is
1:26:24your innocence is not part of this
1:26:26equation why the [ __ ] not
1:26:29think about everything we waste
1:26:31resources on time energy money do they
1:26:33have to
1:26:34make do they have to
1:26:38give a reason for why innocence doesn't
1:26:40matter
1:26:41like when they say something like
1:26:43innocence doesn't matter what don't they
1:26:45have to have a justification for that
1:26:47distinction no and this but and i just
1:26:49want to say that clarence thomas
1:26:51actually wrote the decision kavanaugh
1:26:52was a part of it but what they basically
1:26:55was ruling on in this case the ninth
1:26:56circuit had reversed the case and they
1:26:58gave a hearing on ineffective assistive
1:27:00counsel claim and he found that the
1:27:03lawyer was ineffective because he didn't
1:27:05present the evidence of innocence
1:27:07and and um
1:27:09so what they did was reverse it and said
1:27:11innocent doesn't matter now in the feds
1:27:13they got something called a gateway
1:27:14claim
1:27:15right so your innocence alone they
1:27:17saying
1:27:18is not a freestanding action innocence
1:27:20claim you have to have some other
1:27:22constitutional violation in that case
1:27:24the lawyers chose uh ineffective
1:27:27assistance for counsel because they said
1:27:29this evidence always was available
1:27:31always was available that the lawyer
1:27:33should have got it and presented it uh
1:27:35the courts reversed it and said no we
1:27:36don't care about his innocence and you
1:27:39should stop holding herons on
1:27:40ineffectiveness as the council claims
1:27:42whether it's related to innocence or not
1:27:44um and i'll give it a citation but but
1:27:47it's just
1:27:48people and people should not take our
1:27:49word for it right read the decision
1:27:52it's if we
1:27:54read the entire decision would be here
1:27:55to the end of the podcast because
1:27:57there's a lot of procedural
1:27:59nonsense built into it but they
1:28:02literally say the words that
1:28:04the innocence is not a consideration
1:28:07it's not something we should be
1:28:09considering because it should have been
1:28:11raised and innocence doesn't matter in
1:28:14this context and i mean they said it not
1:28:17just once in a bunch of different ways
1:28:19so the way people should fact check and
1:28:22vet is to read the supreme court
1:28:24decision and we'll give you this
1:28:25citation just go read it and it's uh
1:28:2820-1009
1:28:30it was decided 5 23-22
1:28:34it was a 6-3 opinion by thomas
1:28:36and judges sotomayor and father
1:28:39brian kagan filed the descendant opinion
1:28:42that they would reverse the case
1:28:44and release this guy and the judges that
1:28:46was involved was clarence thomas
1:28:48uh roberts elito was a part and uh
1:28:51kavanaugh was a part of the majority
1:28:55and it's just you know these cases look
1:28:56it's not just
1:28:58innocence
1:28:59uh clemency is gonna be a big part of
1:29:02our our clinic
1:29:03um i don't know if you ever heard of
1:29:05pamela smart case
1:29:07out of new hampshire yeah right grandma
1:29:09smart have been in prison over 30 years
1:29:12of remarkable young women white women
1:29:15that taught a lot of people in bedford
1:29:17hills corrections basically in new york
1:29:19how to get out and run organizations you
1:29:21have all kind of degrees phd kind of
1:29:23like bruce bryant but a female version
1:29:25of it
1:29:26she got life from new hampshire new
1:29:28hampshire sentenced to new york to do a
1:29:30time she's been in new york prisons over
1:29:3230 years
1:29:33she can't get clemency and she sees new
1:29:35york prisoners walking out every day
1:29:37that don't have our credentials
1:29:39because she's in new york the new york
1:29:41governor doesn't have control over new
1:29:43hampshire is like desantis the governor
1:29:46there he waves clemency off don't hold
1:29:48no clemency hearings what was her case
1:29:50was she had someone kill her husband
1:29:53that was the allegations and the guys
1:29:55that committed the murder home
1:29:57those guys been home now for years and
1:29:58years that's exactly the case she was
1:30:00working in a school she was having sex
1:30:02with a student the student becomes
1:30:04obsessed and kills her husband
1:30:06and she swears she never told him to do
1:30:09it but despite if she did or not she's
1:30:10been in prison over 30 some years
1:30:13remarkable young lady has every degree
1:30:15you can think of runs to prison the
1:30:17superintendent gave her letters saying
1:30:19that she should get out of clemency
1:30:21why isn't she out like it's things like
1:30:23this to keep me up at night because you
1:30:25look when you have redeemed yourself
1:30:28whether you're guilty or not when you
1:30:30can serve society best by being out and
1:30:33running programs and helping people i
1:30:35think you should be here well we're
1:30:37supposed to be
1:30:38not just punishing people in prison
1:30:40we're supposed to be rehabilitating
1:30:42people this is the whole idea behind
1:30:44prison right absolutely it's not i mean
1:30:46if someone goes to jail for 10 years
1:30:47it's not just a punishment for a crime
1:30:49it's supposed to be
1:30:51let's figure out a way to make you a
1:30:54productive part of society absolutely
1:30:56the environments that you're describing
1:30:58and the environments that everybody that
1:30:59i've ever talked to that's been
1:31:01incarcerated described are nothing like
1:31:03that no no and if you can't larry hoover
1:31:0650 years in prison right if you can't
1:31:09become a better person after 50 years so
1:31:11something terribly wrong with the system
1:31:14right it's not the person but a lot of
1:31:16times it'd be hype it don't be true in
1:31:18my case they told the judge that i had a
1:31:21large-scale drug organization that
1:31:23terrorized my community the first thing
1:31:25i did when i sat down with the
1:31:26prosecutor i said if you can prove to me
1:31:28that i had this i withdraw my claim
1:31:31i was home eight months i could tell you
1:31:32everything i did in those eight months
1:31:34what it is i'll be lied we lied you lied
1:31:36to judges now you admit it
1:31:39but this would kept me in jail for 21
1:31:41years you telling the judge in ex party
1:31:44conversations that this guy's a terrible
1:31:46guy you can't let him out imagine harms
1:31:49judge believes the hype they don't
1:31:51believe the prosecutor is lying to them
1:31:52so that's another whole topic kyle we
1:31:54need to hold prosecutors accountable
1:31:56yeah right they get away with everything
1:31:58they get away with there's immunity for
1:32:00prosecuting judges
1:32:02yet and still you want to hold donald
1:32:03trump accountable
1:32:05again i'm back yet why not hold
1:32:07prosecutors and judges accountable yeah
1:32:09they have something called qualified
1:32:10immunity and qualified immunity means
1:32:14that in most situations
1:32:17they're not going to be held accountable
1:32:19and you've asked this question before
1:32:21and it is it is probably the most
1:32:23important question to ask because the
1:32:25way that we deter people from engaging
1:32:27in this type of behavior i mean the
1:32:29reason why people don't
1:32:31you know
1:32:32think twice about whether it's cheating
1:32:34on their taxes
1:32:36selling cocaine
1:32:39whatever is
1:32:40is violated of the law is the fear of
1:32:44going to jail
1:32:45okay the fear of going to jail is a real
1:32:48fear it should be a real fair
1:32:50you know
1:32:51derek and i were talking about it we
1:32:53were talking about different prisons in
1:32:54the state of new york it's an awful
1:32:56[ __ ] place who the [ __ ] wants to be
1:32:58in jail it depresses us when we have to
1:33:01go it's awful all right now
1:33:05if prosecutors know that they're not
1:33:08going to be
1:33:09prosecuted or subject to prosecution
1:33:11themselves
1:33:13you know it makes it a lot more
1:33:15difficult for accountability to follow
1:33:18and you know how do we change qualified
1:33:21immunity we get new people in the
1:33:23[ __ ] legislature i'm on i'm not on
1:33:26some crusade against ron desantis i'm
1:33:28not
1:33:29but
1:33:30the reason why i always come back to him
1:33:33is because
1:33:34he very well could be who the [ __ ] knows
1:33:37what's going to happen with donald trump
1:33:38he very well could be the next choice
1:33:40for president right he's very popular
1:33:42here's a guy
1:33:43that vetoed a bill
1:33:46for contraception
1:33:48it was a bipartisan bill you can't get
1:33:50democrats and republicans in florida to
1:33:52agree on the [ __ ] thing all right so
1:33:55he vetoes a bill
1:33:57that would increase
1:34:00contraception it would have provided two
1:34:02million dollars to low-income women to
1:34:05gain
1:34:06ieds more
1:34:08access iuds rather more access to
1:34:11contraception so you would think
1:34:14that the
1:34:15president of the senate who's a
1:34:17republican
1:34:20and championed this bill
1:34:22was blown away shocked that it was
1:34:25vetoed and here's a quote from him
1:34:28okay
1:34:29i thought that would solve a lot of
1:34:30abortion issues probably eliminate
1:34:33thousands of abortions
1:34:35and then he goes on and he blames
1:34:37himself for not convincing desantis
1:34:40what was desantis reasoning behind his
1:34:43reasoning behind it is that he received
1:34:46the letter
1:34:47from i think the catholic bishops
1:34:51and the catholic bishops
1:34:54told him
1:34:55that
1:34:56if you
1:34:58these iuds
1:35:00um
1:35:02prevent
1:35:05they prevent a
1:35:07a fetus from grabbing onto the uterine
1:35:11wall and that that was a form of
1:35:14abortion in and of itself
1:35:16and that you can't i mean so now he's
1:35:19become a doctor and he's against
1:35:21contraception so you're now invading
1:35:24you know the the
1:35:26personal decisions of a woman of how she
1:35:29wants to go about contraception whether
1:35:32you are stymieing
1:35:34semen from entering a woman by putting a
1:35:36[ __ ]
1:35:38raincoat on your dick
1:35:40or you are putting a device in a woman
1:35:43to prevent
1:35:44sperm from getting into the uterine wall
1:35:48i say what's the [ __ ] difference
1:35:50maybe i've had too many whiskeys maybe
1:35:52i'll catch them make any sense it
1:35:54doesn't make it doesn't make any sense
1:35:55so i am not a democrat or a po it just
1:35:58doesn't make any so this is a political
1:35:59decision based on the support of the
1:36:00catholic church yeah it's basically
1:36:02which is arguably if you want to go and
1:36:04talk about people that are guilty of
1:36:06something yes i mean that is that is a
1:36:08horrific history that the catholic
1:36:11church has yeah he got a letter i think
1:36:12it's called the florida
1:36:14conference of catholic bishops that's
1:36:17who we got a letter from
1:36:19and they object to the use of
1:36:21long-acting contraception
1:36:23um particularly these what they call
1:36:26hormonal iuds
1:36:28and they say that they can prevent an
1:36:30embryo from implanting into a woman's
1:36:32uterus so they deem them
1:36:34they're called abort abortions
1:36:39so you know it's like we have to have
1:36:42we have to have the um
1:36:47i guess the
1:36:48the ability to step outside of this
1:36:51tribal primal box and say you know what
1:36:55i don't care if you're a democrat
1:36:56republican libertarian and say i'm not
1:36:58going for that [ __ ] just like i'm not
1:37:01going for somebody that
1:37:03fought to
1:37:05keep dna testing right
1:37:07from
1:37:08seeing the light of day why why would
1:37:11kamala harris do that and you want to
1:37:13know something there the campaign
1:37:16you know wanted to
1:37:18you know i caught a lot of [ __ ] i think
1:37:20um
1:37:22there was a senator that was promoting a
1:37:25clip of me being critical of her
1:37:28um senator car i think it was carpenter
1:37:32um
1:37:34what is his name he has an eye patch
1:37:37he's a very honorable guy dan crenshaw
1:37:39dan crenshaw yeah was promoting a clip
1:37:42of me being critical of her and one they
1:37:44wanted me to you know
1:37:46yeah would you reconsider walking back
1:37:48and i said why can't yeah we had a
1:37:50conversation and she won't walk anything
1:37:52back she won't say anything i mean why
1:37:55can't you just say look i was trying to
1:37:57serve my community i realized with the
1:37:59benefit of hindsight that it's a it's an
1:38:0111
1:38:02test the dna test
1:38:04why not give access these politics a lot
1:38:07of politicians just they're afraid of
1:38:09the political cost of admitting a
1:38:11mistake i'm so turned off by it i almost
1:38:14want to run for office
1:38:15you know and you know i was asked would
1:38:17you ever run for governor of new york i
1:38:20said i don't want my family ravaged am i
1:38:23you know people looking into my past and
1:38:25making a mockery of me i understand why
1:38:27people don't want to run for office but
1:38:29at the same time it kind of makes you
1:38:31feel like if the people that are in
1:38:34power are wielding power in a way that
1:38:36is so dangerous
1:38:38and so harmful to people sometimes i
1:38:41think about it i also don't want to give
1:38:43up my privacy and i also don't want
1:38:45people judging me on every time i make
1:38:48you know a decision that they disagree
1:38:50with and it you know i'm conflicted
1:38:52about it i almost i'm like encouraging
1:38:54people to get involved in a way that i
1:38:55even wouldn't get involved you know
1:38:57politics is a [ __ ] it is it's a
1:39:00dirty business it is you gotta
1:39:02constantly be asking people for money
1:39:04yeah and you know then you end up
1:39:07you know serving many masters yeah it's
1:39:10a dirty business and i just don't know
1:39:13you know this is like uh
1:39:15it's a a pretty simple equation to me
1:39:17when it comes to how
1:39:22problematic racism is in our criminal
1:39:25justice system i don't get why people
1:39:27don't understand this equation the
1:39:29following equation
1:39:31you take an entire
1:39:33entire race of people
1:39:36steal them from their homeland
1:39:38enslave them
1:39:40savage them
1:39:42brutalize them
1:39:44tell them they're free they're really
1:39:46not free
1:39:48build the system in which in our
1:39:50lifetime
1:39:51your
1:39:52parents my parents could not urinate in
1:39:55the same bathroom
1:39:57as people of color
1:39:59and then an entire system is built upon
1:40:02you know
1:40:03making you know why don't you pick your
1:40:06we've talked about this before pick
1:40:07yourself up by your bootstraps i'm tired
1:40:09of the excuses all that that blows my
1:40:11[ __ ] mind
1:40:12it blows my mind
1:40:14because there's a a psych there's a
1:40:16cycle of there's a cycle of you know
1:40:20um
1:40:22you know a family unit being broken an
1:40:24entire civilization of people that have
1:40:26been stolen
1:40:28and brutalized in this country and it
1:40:30just feels like the criminal justice
1:40:31system is going to have be problematic
1:40:34because people are wielding power
1:40:36you know and abusing it in the first
1:40:38place and then you throw
1:40:40you know
1:40:41the racial injustice into it and it
1:40:43complicates it even more because we're
1:40:45just not willing as a society to say
1:40:48you know like i hear i hear from friends
1:40:50of mine
1:40:51look at the jews the jews picked them so
1:40:53i said it's not a fair analogy no not at
1:40:55all people didn't look at me and say oh
1:40:58he must be a jew people think i'm
1:41:00italian latin right they think that i'm
1:41:03from you know and didn't discriminate
1:41:04against me and they didn't create jim
1:41:06crow laws or vacancy laws uh to stop you
1:41:09i mean look look how many black people
1:41:11are killed from misdemeanor stops
1:41:13right i can get a ticket today for
1:41:16riding down the street and get a red
1:41:17light ticket sent to my house in new
1:41:19york city so if i don't put my blinker
1:41:21on why can't you send me that same
1:41:23sticker ticket why you got to pull me
1:41:25over throw me out the car search me look
1:41:26for a gun and look for whatever it's
1:41:28designed that way right it's designed
1:41:31to create an image that black people are
1:41:34animals like you say are they killing
1:41:35each other they doing this they're doing
1:41:36that so police become afraid we spoke to
1:41:40uh the last commissioner of new york
1:41:42city right and we had
1:41:44a conversation with them about how they
1:41:46was training cops in new york city
1:41:48and they was giving cops was pop-ups
1:41:50they would show them videos of a cop
1:41:51going down the steps in the staircase
1:41:53and get shot
1:41:54these are young rookie cops
1:41:56what do you think they're going to do
1:41:58when they get into exit they're going to
1:41:59pull a gun out they're afraid they've
1:42:00been indoctrinated to believe that this
1:42:02is what happens when you're walking down
1:42:04a staircase in a project somebody's
1:42:06going to jump out and shoot you right
1:42:08you got to train the way change the way
1:42:10that you train people train people right
1:42:12because they believe that if i'm working
1:42:14in a certain neighborhood that i'm going
1:42:16to get killed i'm going to shoot first
1:42:17this is human nature we indoctrinate
1:42:20people by institutions and that's one of
1:42:22the biggest things that i always tell
1:42:23people that you know why i believe in
1:42:26self-taught more so than institutions
1:42:28because you become indoctrinated unless
1:42:29you got a strong mind you got a strong
1:42:31mind you're not so cut in how you think
1:42:35right and people come at you because of
1:42:37that they don't like you josh you're
1:42:39going on joe rogan show are you crazy
1:42:41what is wrong with you you supporting
1:42:42republicans because you can think for
1:42:44yourself the institutions don't control
1:42:46you a lot of people are indoctrinated
1:42:49and controlled by institutions they
1:42:50don't have the balls to be their own men
1:42:53i don't always feel strong i don't
1:42:55because it's like
1:42:57you know like
1:42:59we try to get like as as reform
1:43:02advocates people try to censor us we
1:43:04were all we were trying to we won't
1:43:05mention names but on the way here people
1:43:08were trying to censor us people that you
1:43:09wouldn't expect it from
1:43:11and
1:43:12you know yeah i think that's you in what
1:43:14way like
1:43:16you know
1:43:18make sure that you are
1:43:20explaining that you were there in your
1:43:22individual capacity because
1:43:25they don't want
1:43:28people are so afraid of cancer culture
1:43:31they're afraid that
1:43:34that you will be
1:43:36painted in a certain way because of who
1:43:39you associate with or who you speak to
1:43:41or who you
1:43:43um
1:43:47who you try to like
1:43:49sit across a table from it's like let me
1:43:52say this
1:43:53i'll say it publicly
1:43:55this guy
1:43:56joe rogan is like a brother
1:43:59you know we we don't even know each
1:44:01other
1:44:02it's weird because our families don't
1:44:04know each other and we've talked about
1:44:05it you know like
1:44:07when i see him get dragged through the
1:44:09mud in the media i've shed tears
1:44:12because he's a rare person he roots for
1:44:14me and wants to see me do good and we
1:44:16know each other in a way that is like
1:44:18it's weird because it's at a distance
1:44:21but i feel like a closeness to him like
1:44:23a brotherhood right and that's because
1:44:25i understand the guy's heart so
1:44:28i'm not gonna be
1:44:30you know
1:44:31told what to do or censored or told what
1:44:34to think or what to say
1:44:35because
1:44:36you know i don't think that that derek i
1:44:38honestly don't think it's strength i
1:44:40think that it's more out of anger and
1:44:42being pissed off
1:44:44that people think
1:44:46in a way that represents a herd
1:44:48mentality right and it's like i feel it
1:44:51sometimes with you
1:44:53where sometimes people will judge him
1:44:55they see a black man with a gold tooth
1:44:57who's big and has been in prison for 30
1:45:00years and they make assumptions
1:45:02and i won't even tell you it's happened
1:45:04since we've been associated with each
1:45:06other
1:45:07and you can't concern yourself with that
1:45:08i i don't concern myself with that i
1:45:10know i know you don't much but you bring
1:45:12it up it's
1:45:13it's the nature of the business it's
1:45:15part of what happens when you get a lot
1:45:16of attention it's there's no getting
1:45:18around it you know and
1:45:21i appreciate it i i and i i appreciate
1:45:25what you are and who you are and what
1:45:28you're capable of doing and the the the
1:45:30love that you have for these people and
1:45:32the way that you put yourself out there
1:45:34it's very very rare and that's why you
1:45:35and i are brothers
1:45:37because i know you i know your heart i
1:45:39know what you're doing you know and
1:45:42some people they just they think again
1:45:44it goes along tribal lines and it's also
1:45:47the fear of
1:45:48repercussions of fear of criticism they
1:45:51read too much they're they're paying
1:45:52attention too many idiots on social
1:45:54media they're paying attention to too
1:45:55much nonsense the greater good of what
1:45:57you're doing outweighs everything by a
1:46:00gigantic margin
1:46:01and the fact that they can't see that is
1:46:03just it just shows that even on the
1:46:05right side of
1:46:07important issues you're going to have
1:46:09people that are cowards true and that's
1:46:11the problem you're not a coward
1:46:13and that's that's what people
1:46:15don't like they don't like when someone
1:46:18displays character and a point of focus
1:46:22that's beyond what they're capable of it
1:46:24intimidates them it bothers them and
1:46:27they try to find weakness in it and they
1:46:29try to critique it and criticize it and
1:46:31shut it down
1:46:32and it's just a la it's a lack of
1:46:34understanding of just the true character
1:46:37of human beings and how important it is
1:46:39to have someone like yourself that
1:46:41dedicates
1:46:42a massive amount of their life to trying
1:46:45to help innocent people get out of jail
1:46:48which should be the focus of our entire
1:46:50culture our entire culture should be
1:46:53let's first of all make sure that no one
1:46:55is ever convicted of something that
1:46:57they're uh
1:46:58unjustly accused of no one ever and if
1:47:01they are we need to get them out before
1:47:03we need to convict people of crimes we
1:47:05need to get people out that are innocent
1:47:07that's more important than anything it's
1:47:09more important than anything that if we
1:47:12have a culture
1:47:13that
1:47:14not only allows people to be imprisoned
1:47:17but
1:47:18creates law and and signs
1:47:22decisions that keep people in prison
1:47:27that they know are innocent we have a
1:47:29terrible system yes that that should be
1:47:32number one because these are innocent
1:47:33people we're supposed to be protecting
1:47:34innocent people those people that should
1:47:37be our primary concern and that's your
1:47:39primary concern and that's a incredibly
1:47:41noble and brave and honorable and loving
1:47:44perspective and for people to not see
1:47:46that and try to connect it with
1:47:49nonsense
1:47:50and try to just get you
1:47:52upset or just criticize you or try to
1:47:55tear you down it's because they don't
1:47:57they don't have what you do they don't
1:47:59have what you are they're not you
1:48:02and that bothers people that bother the
1:48:03purity of your intent bothers people
1:48:06well i appreciate you saying it i mean
1:48:07maybe i don't give myself enough flowers
1:48:09and i'm not looking for flowers i just
1:48:11feel like
1:48:13you know i'm not looking for
1:48:15anything but
1:48:16the feeling of
1:48:19you know i just know i've said it before
1:48:21that the feeling of restoring another
1:48:22human being and when you walk someone
1:48:25out
1:48:26there's just like
1:48:27you know i've done plenty of drugs in my
1:48:29life and i've tried it all and there's
1:48:32just nothing that can match it there
1:48:34just isn't and i it's like almost the
1:48:36feeling that you were describing of when
1:48:38you like
1:48:40surround yourself with good people and
1:48:41see them succeeding and you get a thrill
1:48:43off of it this is the ultimate thrill i
1:48:45remember one time
1:48:47where um
1:48:49emanuel steward who trained lennox lewis
1:48:53and tommy hearns and so many other
1:48:54champions
1:48:56from the cronk gym
1:48:58he um
1:49:00i mean i was like a a baby at the time
1:49:03now that i think about it you remember
1:49:05walter swift he was in detroit yes
1:49:08i don't even think i've ever told you
1:49:10this story have i i don't think so all
1:49:12right so walter swift served like i
1:49:14think close to 40 years
1:49:17and
1:49:18i was uh with barry sheck at dinner
1:49:20though the one of the founders of the
1:49:22innocence project and he was telling me
1:49:24about this case in detroit
1:49:26and it was it was a rape case and this
1:49:29black guy was accused of it and he had
1:49:32stunning evidence of his innocence and
1:49:34he's like if i could just get the d.a to
1:49:36pay attention you know when he won in in
1:49:38detroit
1:49:39i said i know emmanuel stewart and uh
1:49:43i remember even as i flung the name out
1:49:45there i was like he's a boxing trainer
1:49:47but he was pretty famous in detroit yes
1:49:51and emmanuel
1:49:53was like you
1:49:55um
1:49:57he uh
1:49:58man i was
1:50:03he was uh
1:50:06and i walk in here every time
1:50:09don't cry oh crap just just
1:50:11just
1:50:12you're gonna cry yes he is that's him
1:50:15it's just part of the progress
1:50:18emmanuel and i was like a
1:50:20a young guy in linux loses camp
1:50:25he was the only guy that would uh
1:50:28i was a cop there
1:50:30i was there to look who was stealing
1:50:31from him
1:50:34so i was really rejected
1:50:36and the manual
1:50:38from the moment i met him took me in
1:50:41i was up in the poconos
1:50:45and uh
1:50:50i feel like an idiot
1:50:52i was writing a story about lennox
1:50:57and emmanuel would take me to his cabin
1:51:00every night
1:51:01oh you this young lawyer i heard about
1:51:03you got lettings back his money and this
1:51:05and that
1:51:07and i told him i was just getting
1:51:09involved in the innocence project and uh
1:51:11i was helping you know with these cases
1:51:13and he wanted to hear about all the
1:51:15cases
1:51:19so i told him about walter swift and i
1:51:21remember i called him and it was lit i
1:51:23woke him up wherever he was
1:51:28and uh i said just call me tomorrow he
1:51:30called me back like 20 minutes later
1:51:31he's like i can't sleep
1:51:34he said tell me more about the case
1:51:37i ended up writing an article about this
1:51:39in boxing digest and emanuel
1:51:42wrote a letter to the parole board
1:51:46and like two months later barry called
1:51:48me and said they're letting him out
1:51:50and uh
1:51:53emmanuel
1:51:55promised him a job
1:51:58and i flew in from california
1:52:01and he insisted that he go to the parole
1:52:03hearing i mean to the um exoneration
1:52:06hearing
1:52:07they declared him actually innocent
1:52:10and i went with the manual to the
1:52:12hearing and uh
1:52:15we got into the courtroom and the the
1:52:17court officers were all saying hello to
1:52:19him how you doing mr stewart asking for
1:52:21pictures with him
1:52:23and the judge before she started the
1:52:25hearing she took the bench and she said
1:52:26is that is that emanuel stewart in my
1:52:28courtroom and he stood up and he said
1:52:31yeah i'm here on behalf of walter so she
1:52:33says it's a pleasure to have you here i
1:52:34have the transcript in my office
1:52:38and uh
1:52:43uh walter got out of jail
1:52:46emmanuel came up
1:52:49and grabbed his garbage bag with all his
1:52:52stuff in it yes
1:52:54and we took him to his victory party and
1:52:56i remember thinking of myself
1:52:58this guy was like looking around like
1:53:01shocked
1:53:02he was like
1:53:03the i didn't know if it was the sunlight
1:53:05that was bothering him he could not
1:53:08he could not comprehend
1:53:11what was happening
1:53:13and i wrote this in the article that uh
1:53:17he struggled really bad walter i don't
1:53:20even know where he is now
1:53:22he had drug problems he had mental
1:53:24health issues
1:53:26and he would steal from a manual he'll
1:53:28call emanuel at all hours of the night
1:53:32can you pick me up i'm stuck i don't
1:53:34know where i am at emmanuel com attack
1:53:36walter last night
1:53:38and i would say you know man you don't
1:53:40have to keep doing this you say no
1:53:42i don't worry about it who'd come over
1:53:45and smoke weed in his bathroom and smell
1:53:47up the house when there were amateur
1:53:48fighters there i would say well say
1:53:50something to him nah it's okay he just
1:53:53steals little [ __ ] from from time to
1:53:55time
1:53:56and i say well say something to him and
1:53:58he would say nah it's okay don't worry
1:54:00about it and like right up until
1:54:03right before emmanuel died he would ask
1:54:05how's walter doing
1:54:07you know
1:54:10and uh
1:54:11he just understood
1:54:13and got it
1:54:15he said you know
1:54:17he's out and he's gonna struggle but we
1:54:20saved them drama yeah and he understood
1:54:23the trauma the idea that you're supposed
1:54:24to get out and just be
1:54:26healed
1:54:27is crazy
1:54:28without any help with it without without
1:54:31any assistance without any counseling
1:54:34without any whatever whatever it is that
1:54:37you need to get over that experience the
1:54:39fact that you're just supposed to get
1:54:40over that when you were innocent and
1:54:42imprisoned for years and years is insane
1:54:45i don't understand how you do it without
1:54:47you know like my wife has this idea for
1:54:49equine therapy for people that get out
1:54:51she spoke to you i think a little bit
1:54:52about it about dogs to help probably
1:54:55help a little i think psychedelics would
1:54:57really help
1:54:58that's what mike tyson said yeah
1:55:00psychedelic yeah mike and i have talked
1:55:01about that many many times about how
1:55:03much that's helped him you know we
1:55:05because he knows i'm a proponent of it
1:55:07we've talked about it on the podcast his
1:55:09experiences of it it changed his
1:55:10perspective it changed my perspective it
1:55:13changed me as a human being right it's
1:55:15changed a lot of people it's like it's
1:55:17like having a conversation with god
1:55:19you know how do you do how do you do it
1:55:21you know there's no answer i mean i
1:55:23couldn't you know i don't know i just do
1:55:25it
1:55:25um i think if you know i think what it
1:55:27comes from
1:55:29is
1:55:29what kept me going in prison i'm doing
1:55:32the same thing so i haven't changed much
1:55:35i was representing guys in prison i
1:55:37think that's my therapy
1:55:39right knowing that i'm fighting back
1:55:41a system that did so much to me and
1:55:43continue to do it to others is my
1:55:44therapy i think when i'm reading the
1:55:46case and i'm like i'm gonna get these
1:55:48bastards i'm gonna get this motion in i
1:55:50mean
1:55:51we got a guy right here in houston when
1:55:52you get a chance to see him 44 years in
1:55:55louisiana prison
1:55:57vincent simmons
1:55:5844 years walking them out on valentine's
1:56:00day with justin bones was remarkable 44
1:56:04years 16 judges denied him
1:56:0616 the judge the granted bennett own
1:56:09father denied him
1:56:11right i mean these is the moments that
1:56:13we live for right to walk that guy out
1:56:16after 44 years of angola
1:56:18you know like you said it's therapeutic
1:56:20right to know that you can go back and
1:56:22pull people out and you continue to
1:56:24fight against uh the powers to be
1:56:27i mean to me that's therapeutic to me
1:56:29there's no better therapy for me than to
1:56:32be able to work on these cases and to
1:56:33free some slaves that's what that's what
1:56:35they are you know and to get them out of
1:56:37the prison industrial complex to me is
1:56:39therapeutic i gotta also imagine that
1:56:42that hard work that you did when you're
1:56:43in prison fortified your your character
1:56:46and changed you as a person because you
1:56:48knew that you could do that now you knew
1:56:50you could become this incredibly
1:56:52knowledgeable lawyer now absolutely it
1:56:54changes a person when they accomplish
1:56:56things it changes a person when they go
1:56:58through things it fortifies what it is
1:57:01like your human potential yes it changes
1:57:03you and you get out of there and what do
1:57:05you do you keep doing the same thing
1:57:07same and it fortifies you further
1:57:09strengthens you further it's very
1:57:11admirable it's and it's very it's very
1:57:13inspirational and for a lot of people
1:57:16listening to this that maybe have pity
1:57:18on themselves for nonsense they're
1:57:21listening to your case right now and
1:57:22they're going holy [ __ ] what what am i
1:57:25talking about yeah you know if you
1:57:26google derrick hamilton it's like i
1:57:29remember the dean of the law school
1:57:31where this center is being launched and
1:57:33it's killing both of us if we can't
1:57:35we'll come back hopefully you'll have us
1:57:37back again and we'll announce the launch
1:57:39the dean represent tell me when the dean
1:57:41of the law school
1:57:43um
1:57:44i told her i said you know there's this
1:57:45guy that got out
1:57:47and uh she said you're gonna have an
1:57:49exoneree be the deputy director of this
1:57:52big
1:57:53legal center i said
1:57:54google him it felt good to say that i
1:57:57had never said that i said google him
1:58:00and she called me and she said
1:58:02i am
1:58:03i am i want to meet him
1:58:06so much has been written about derek
1:58:09and how prolific he was and i you know
1:58:11like to be honest with you
1:58:15i want to be around them as much as i
1:58:17can because i draw strength and
1:58:19knowledge and wisdom and i watch him
1:58:21like navigate a room
1:58:23and whether it's street folks
1:58:26people in education in higher education
1:58:28or on wall street whatever it is he can
1:58:31navigate any room and he could do it
1:58:33with what what what do the uh ivy
1:58:36leaguers say with the plum
1:58:38he he knows what the [ __ ] he's doing and
1:58:40how to say it and that is a skill set in
1:58:42and of itself to be able to read a room
1:58:45and and i you know i and and to know
1:58:49what is appropriate and what isn't you
1:58:51know a lot of guys that get out
1:58:53have a real difficult time socially
1:58:57um
1:58:58you know we have friends in common that
1:59:00are exonerees that
1:59:02they struggle to get things done because
1:59:05they're inappropriate sometimes they
1:59:07haven't been around women forever they
1:59:09haven't been around people forever
1:59:11and
1:59:12i just know we're on
1:59:15you know we're going to free a lot of
1:59:17people
1:59:18and the clemency arm of our legal
1:59:20justice center
1:59:22you know
1:59:23you mentioned it earlier
1:59:26you got to make a decision
1:59:28as a human being
1:59:30is what do you believe
1:59:33in terms of the ability to forgive and
1:59:37give a second chance are we all better
1:59:40than the worst thing we've done
1:59:42if you take a real look at yourself in
1:59:44the mirror
1:59:46and i'll i'll take a look at myself in
1:59:47the mirror
1:59:48and say i i hope i'm better than the
1:59:51worst things i've done and if the worst
1:59:53things i've done to find me
1:59:55then i i should be you know condemned
1:59:59we're all
2:00:01fallible we've all made horrible
2:00:03mistakes that we wish other people
2:00:06didn't know about and if prison is
2:00:08really about rehabilitation
2:00:11should be a real option
2:00:13we still incarcerate at a rate that is
2:00:16six times what south africa incarcerated
2:00:20during apartheid that says terrible
2:00:22things about who we are as a culture are
2:00:25we trying to rehabilitate and send
2:00:27people back into society to be
2:00:28productive members of society or do we
2:00:30want to
2:00:31lock people up and throw away they can't
2:00:33forget them that's a choice we have to
2:00:35make
2:00:36it seems like there's a problem in this
2:00:37country too in that there's an industry
2:00:40in incarcerating people yes
2:00:42that it's it's a business yes it's and
2:00:45to stop that business dead in its tracks
2:00:47you're going to have a lot of people out
2:00:49of work and they're they have a vested
2:00:50interest in continuing that industry
2:00:52it's not different than the uh
2:00:55than the pharmaceutical is not different
2:00:57prison industrial complex i mean who
2:00:58makes all the license plates on every
2:01:00car you see in the country who makes
2:01:02them god's in prisons and when they get
2:01:04out they can't even get a job from dmv
2:01:07right let's look at the reality yeah you
2:01:09know and that's in every state explain
2:01:11to joe and the listeners the private
2:01:14private prisons
2:01:16and the the inherent dangers that that
2:01:19presents our country
2:01:21well i mean you talk about private or
2:01:23state ram but private more so
2:01:26allows
2:01:27uh you know i mean look you get a
2:01:29private prison it's not going to be
2:01:31regulated on the same
2:01:33way that state prisons are supposed to
2:01:35be regulated so the minimum standards go
2:01:37out the door right because it's strictly
2:01:38for profit right there's strictly
2:01:40there's no rehabilitated characters in
2:01:42it whatsoever but i think they both kind
2:01:44of marry each other because whether it's
2:01:47state-run or private rand the
2:01:48deprivations are the same it's all about
2:01:50a dollar right so whether you're in a
2:01:52state-run prison you're going to work
2:01:54for 14 in an hour right you're going to
2:01:56be in the industry because the industry
2:01:57might pay a dollar
2:01:59a day or two dollars a day 14 cents an
2:02:02hour on average so if you go to industry
2:02:04where you make lockers or you make
2:02:06furniture right they say okay we give
2:02:08you two hours a day commerce survey is
2:02:10going to cost you money so you're just
2:02:12doing it to eat you're doing it to
2:02:14survive right and then 14 cents the day
2:02:16you get it's not like the steaks paying
2:02:18it they're getting it from the interest
2:02:20of all of the money that your family
2:02:22sent in so they take an interest from
2:02:23that money and they paying you
2:02:25so it's all about a dollar whether it's
2:02:27private or whether it's state rent
2:02:29um it's industries in the prison that
2:02:32make money for corporations
2:02:34and the corporations get rich
2:02:36so it's about a dollar it's about
2:02:39whether it's private or state
2:02:41um you can
2:02:43get a bid on a comb
2:02:44right if you're a prison owner you say
2:02:46okay i'm on the big homes i'm going to
2:02:47pay 25 cents per coin if they're giving
2:02:50you 1500 a day
2:02:53for inmate why would you want to let
2:02:55them go anywhere you're going to give
2:02:56them a ticket you're going to say look i
2:02:57have guards telling me you know you got
2:02:58a parole date you better better be
2:03:00careful because you may lose that any
2:03:03second
2:03:04right because you know it's job security
2:03:06if i write this guy up and say he
2:03:07punched me in the face who's going to
2:03:08disbelieve him right
2:03:10cuomo when he ran for governor of new
2:03:12york one of the first things he said in
2:03:13the state of state of the address is
2:03:15that new york got to stop using prisons
2:03:17as an industry then we got to find
2:03:19another way to make some money he
2:03:21admitted it
2:03:22outright that new york was doing it so i
2:03:24think that the private whether it's
2:03:25private or whether it's state-run the
2:03:28goals is the same it's the industry it's
2:03:31it's a money-making machine and nobody
2:03:33want to give it up
2:03:34nobody want to give it up i used to tell
2:03:36correctional officers and get a mat this
2:03:38is a overpaid babysitting job i said i
2:03:40grew up i never heard anybody say they
2:03:42want to be a correctional officer i'm
2:03:44not disrespecting you it's a fallback
2:03:45job right you know everybody got to make
2:03:47a living but but it's just it's about
2:03:49money it's about money and nobody want
2:03:52to give it up i mean it's modern day
2:03:54slavery who else going to do those jobs
2:03:56so what's going to make life in place
2:03:57tell me where you know that there's a
2:03:59any industry out here in society making
2:04:01license plates there's none
2:04:03there's none
2:04:05there's not one
2:04:07so who else is going to do it
2:04:09the guy that they stop
2:04:11and charge him with a marijuana offense
2:04:13right and find a gun in his car they're
2:04:15going to give him seven years what he's
2:04:17going to do he's poor from the beginning
2:04:18what goes back to the history when
2:04:20slavery was first absolved
2:04:22one abolished rather one of the first
2:04:24things they did was
2:04:26go out and arrest people and force them
2:04:28to work for slave labor in prison yes
2:04:30vagrancy laws yeah yes
2:04:32i mean and they did it specifically
2:04:34because they wanted to incarcerate
2:04:37people that used to be slaves yes
2:04:40they didn't give them like there wasn't
2:04:42some sort of comprehensive plan to
2:04:44rehabilitate them and introduce them to
2:04:46and
2:04:47and no reparations and no nothing no no
2:04:50punishment for the people that did it to
2:04:51them and no assistance to those people
2:04:54nothing and so they would just arrest
2:04:56them and that that was the beginning of
2:04:58our prison industrial complex in this
2:05:00country yes
2:05:01it was literally founded off of slavery
2:05:04that's exactly what it was and they just
2:05:06kept modernizing it yeah billing it i
2:05:09mean look we talk about truth and
2:05:11sentencing bill
2:05:12right clinton
2:05:14gabe states he the one created took good
2:05:16time away in every state 85 percent
2:05:19mandatory prisons time to states who
2:05:22joined in this truth and sentencing bill
2:05:24he said look i'm going to give you the
2:05:25money to build prisons and put a hundred
2:05:26thousand more cops on the street
2:05:28right so i don't believe in you know
2:05:30democrat or republican i believe that
2:05:32prison industrial complex
2:05:34is going to be built no matter who's in
2:05:36political office
2:05:37uh it serves a purpose in this society
2:05:40they're going to continue it uh
2:05:42abolitionists kind of got it right i
2:05:44think you got to start over
2:05:46right if you're going to change it you
2:05:47have to start over you can't put a
2:05:49band-aid right on a wound if that needs
2:05:52a stitch
2:05:53right it just doesn't work like that you
2:05:54got to get that stitch to close it up
2:05:56in this case
2:05:57they're not trying to change the prince
2:06:00of the industrial complex it costs too
2:06:03much there's too much money being made
2:06:05in it uh the powers that be don't want
2:06:07to see it go away the only thing that
2:06:08makes sense to me is to make it
2:06:10financially viable to revitalize
2:06:12communities absolutely that's the only
2:06:14thing that makes sense to me if you look
2:06:15at all the communities that were damaged
2:06:17by red line laws all the communities
2:06:19that
2:06:20were apart that's the that's the number
2:06:22one problem in this country yes is that
2:06:24these people that grow up in this the
2:06:25idea this is where i have the biggest
2:06:27problem with this whole [ __ ] about
2:06:28pull yourself up by your bootstraps yes
2:06:31like you have people that are growing up
2:06:33in a neighborhood that you couldn't
2:06:34comprehend
2:06:36filled with violence and crime and gangs
2:06:38and to tell that person that they just
2:06:41have to be accountable when they have no
2:06:43examples of the around them people are
2:06:45we imitate our atmosphere you surround
2:06:47yourself with good people
2:06:49more likely you're going to become a
2:06:50good person you have a much better
2:06:51chance you surround yourself with people
2:06:53that are criminals that becomes the norm
2:06:55for you it becomes
2:06:56it becomes natural and if we don't
2:06:58concentrate on that we spend 40 billion
2:07:01dollars to ukraine we spend billions of
2:07:03dollars for all sorts of military
2:07:05programs that many of us don't agree
2:07:07with
2:07:08interventionalist foreign policy that
2:07:10many people don't agree with and there's
2:07:11a countless
2:07:12coffer that that pays for that [ __ ]
2:07:15where's the money to revitalize
2:07:16communities well i mean you know and
2:07:18that takes
2:07:20that takes the
2:07:22i don't know what happened to van jones
2:07:24i like van
2:07:25he um we were part of the same criminal
2:07:29justice
2:07:30van jones van jones the guy from cnn
2:07:32yeah listen he was given 100 something
2:07:35million dollar pledge by jeff bezos
2:07:38where the [ __ ] did he go and before that
2:07:40reform gave him money i don't like that
2:07:42so i don't know where he i don't i don't
2:07:44know where he went but but think about
2:07:46this imagine this okay and this is like
2:07:49you know joe raised this with me before
2:07:51and it makes so much sense because you
2:07:53think about a guy like jeff bezos or
2:07:55elon musk or any of these guys that are
2:07:58you know elon musk seems to to me to be
2:08:02one of the most forward-thinking
2:08:03progressive dynamic creative human
2:08:05beings i've ever laid eyes on or
2:08:07listened to
2:08:08and if anyone could reimagine a society
2:08:11there's so you know like there's a case
2:08:13in alabama people should look up this
2:08:15case willie simmons willie simmons is
2:08:18serving a 40-year sentence for stealing
2:08:19nine [ __ ] dollars that's not made up
2:08:22go look it up
2:08:23look at the the the brianna taylor case
2:08:27just imagine this for a minute
2:08:30imagine you walk into your [ __ ]
2:08:32office
2:08:34and you think that someone is in your
2:08:37office and shouldn't be you shoot at
2:08:39them five [ __ ] times could you
2:08:41imagine going to your boss and saying i
2:08:43want to raise
2:08:46in in in louisville
2:08:48they increased the budget for police
2:08:51and the way they did it was to cut it
2:08:52out from libraries
2:08:54right in response to that crazy so in
2:08:57other words increase the budget for
2:08:59police for what
2:09:00for training
2:09:02for what what exactly is it going to
2:09:05right
2:09:06so we need to do we need to reimagine
2:09:09how we
2:09:10how we you know
2:09:12um
2:09:14think about
2:09:15this is why it was it was
2:09:17so eye-opening for me to work with the
2:09:20sean carter foundation and jay-z's mom
2:09:23and with these students
2:09:25because
2:09:26i was watching these students that i
2:09:28know
2:09:29were born into circumstances that i was
2:09:31not born into and they just didn't have
2:09:34the same opportunities that i had and to
2:09:36watch them flourish
2:09:39and they doubted themselves quite a bit
2:09:42and this man derek would tell them you
2:09:44can do this i don't want to hear any
2:09:46[ __ ] that you can't i don't care
2:09:47that you're not a law student you're not
2:09:49a lawyer you're just solving a puzzle
2:09:52and they never said
2:09:54these are these are what 20 21 year old
2:09:57kids
2:09:58and they were given an opportunity and
2:10:01when you watch human potential
2:10:03flourish
2:10:05oh boy is that an uplifting thing
2:10:07and it is like uh
2:10:10it it is not only uplifting it fills you
2:10:13with the type of hope that propels you
2:10:16forward and says well i have to do more
2:10:18right you know jay-z sits in the
2:10:20background and so does his mom
2:10:23and and
2:10:24he has this
2:10:26pretty uh remarkable impact on society
2:10:30and culture that he does not really seek
2:10:32attention for right
2:10:34and you know roc nation and donya diaz
2:10:38and these folks at roc nation that
2:10:41empower these kids they don't they're
2:10:42not out there looking for like a
2:10:45a story about it
2:10:47but
2:10:49you know they trusted me
2:10:50and put confidence in me
2:10:52to
2:10:54basically take their children
2:10:56they call them their babies right
2:10:57because they know them since they're in
2:10:59high school
2:11:00and it was a really it was a moment of
2:11:03awakening for me this summer to see
2:11:05children
2:11:06that otherwise didn't have the
2:11:08confidence
2:11:09or didn't even know the potential in
2:11:11themselves realize that potential and
2:11:13they're not going to all go on to be
2:11:14lawyers
2:11:15you know there's one of them as a is a
2:11:17dancer one of them
2:11:19is a drama major and they one of them
2:11:22wants to help
2:11:23the incarcerated through dance and
2:11:26healing in that regard right
2:11:28um jasmine you know jalen wants to
2:11:31figure out a way to maybe go to law
2:11:33school sam wants to maybe go to law
2:11:35school we had a computer programmer who
2:11:38he
2:11:39you know i don't know if he's going to
2:11:40figure out an app
2:11:42that will
2:11:43you know
2:11:44categorize bad cops
2:11:46your namesake josh my name's sick joshua
2:11:49and then there's you know brittany and
2:11:51they all had something different that
2:11:53came together
2:11:55and they helped solve a case basically
2:11:57and if that can happen you know we can
2:12:00make anything happen so people have yeah
2:12:03people have to j and then yeah we have
2:12:05this girl sam who like
2:12:08she white boarded the whole case
2:12:11and you know figured things out the
2:12:13people that have been working on the
2:12:14case for for decades haven't figured out
2:12:17so i just you know i i feel like
2:12:20you know people listen to your podcast
2:12:23and
2:12:24it's a it's a weird thing joe you know
2:12:26it's like
2:12:28i was in an airport
2:12:30going to greece a couple of weeks ago
2:12:32and i pulled down my mask to look at the
2:12:34board and some guy goes josh dubbin
2:12:37he goes
2:12:38thank you man for what you're doing for
2:12:40my people
2:12:41and my daughter was watching and she and
2:12:43he said would you mind take a picture
2:12:46and she's like
2:12:47i felt dumb i was like
2:12:49my like known for being on a podcast and
2:12:52he's like
2:12:54i said it to her and she go he goes no
2:12:56you're known for what you did in that
2:12:58case and i read about the case and i so
2:13:01it's like i said well what are you going
2:13:03to do now
2:13:04that's right he worked at the airport
2:13:06and he was telling me about how he's
2:13:07going to college and he's like i don't
2:13:09really know my dad was a mechanic
2:13:13and i said well what do you want to do
2:13:15he said i want him i want to do things
2:13:17to change people and i said well
2:13:19you can do that he goes well how and i
2:13:22said you tell me how. so we got into
2:13:24this conversation i was with this guy
2:13:25for 25 minutes talking to him and i saw
2:13:28him realizing as we were speaking i can
2:13:31actually do something
2:13:33i can act you know it's just like the
2:13:35self belief that you can actually do it
2:13:38and that's why i like hanging around
2:13:40derek
2:13:41that's why i like hanging around you
2:13:42because it just needs more encouragement
2:13:44for people to like realize their own
2:13:47potential
2:13:48you know some other human being can do
2:13:50it you can do it you know i marvel at
2:13:53everything i marvel at the lights i see
2:13:56i marvel at the person that made this
2:13:58table
2:13:59you realize what you're good at
2:14:01you know
2:14:02and and then you get out there and do it
2:14:04instead of figuring out reasons why you
2:14:06can't you can make this kind of change
2:14:08happen and that starts with like if
2:14:10someone makes a stupid joke
2:14:13that's a racist joke that you don't
2:14:15think is going to propel the
2:14:16conversation forward
2:14:18here's why that's harmful and won't
2:14:20advance the ball
2:14:21you know and call them out on it if you
2:14:24see a law that you don't like or you
2:14:26think is stupid you have the power to
2:14:28change it absolutely you talked about
2:14:30legislators legislators are just people
2:14:33that decided to run for office and write
2:14:35laws
2:14:38i sitting there don't take money i mean
2:14:40we talk about a hundred million dollars
2:14:42that uh van gogh but it doesn't take a
2:14:45hundred million hours to help somebody
2:14:46that's innocent get out of prison
2:14:47you know it doesn't it just take action
2:14:49it take work take dedication
2:14:52uh last two years we got three people
2:14:54out one lawyer
2:14:56right it didn't take
2:14:57you know a bunch of pro bono you guys
2:14:59could dedicate yourself to the cause
2:15:01just yesterday in jersey family and
2:15:02friends of the world convicted
2:15:04protesting against jersey because of so
2:15:06many innocent people and they're
2:15:08incarcerated bad lawyering terrible
2:15:10churches terrible but you have to take
2:15:12action while i'm here the organization
2:15:14is up there working
2:15:16right they up there working saying free
2:15:17these guys in jersey family and friends
2:15:20you have to take action right and
2:15:22there's more people that you know i was
2:15:24told something in louisiana uh they got
2:15:26organization called vote dear all
2:15:28incarcerated former incarcerated people
2:15:30and what they do and we should actually
2:15:32leak link with them they do is they get
2:15:34involved
2:15:35in elections and that's how they got to
2:15:37new orleans governor and different
2:15:38people up there and one of the things
2:15:40that god said to me up there i'll never
2:15:41forget he says our motto is that if it's
2:15:44ten of us and each of us bring one
2:15:47person that's 20.
2:15:48and then each of the one person bring
2:15:50one person that's 30 and 40 and 50.
2:15:52that's what we believe in that don't
2:15:53take a bunch of us we just take enough
2:15:56of us
2:15:56and that makes the difference i mean if
2:15:58everybody brings somebody in
2:16:00right the numbers multiply uh these
2:16:03listeners are hearing us and they know
2:16:05that to me this is a real
2:16:08real
2:16:09a situation because we all americans at
2:16:11the end of the day no matter how you
2:16:12want to say it no matter how you want to
2:16:14believe it we all are americans we all
2:16:16believe in this system where we dislike
2:16:18what it does or not we all a fabric of
2:16:20our environment right so we all should
2:16:23hold our government accountable one of
2:16:25the things that kept me going was the
2:16:27magna carta when i learned that in 1215
2:16:30it was bold english barons that held
2:16:32king john at gunpoint and made him sign
2:16:34the magna carta he didn't give it to
2:16:35them they made him give it to him right
2:16:37and when people talk about you know i
2:16:39speak to people they talk about
2:16:41what happened uh at the capitol right
2:16:44and what i teach people the second
2:16:46amendment second amendment if you read
2:16:47it
2:16:48right it says when the government
2:16:49becomes tyrant the people can get a
2:16:51molester to revolt well you agree with
2:16:53them people not if they believe
2:16:55if you if they believe that
2:16:58the election was stole
2:17:00right they had a right to revolt you
2:17:02don't have to believe that read the
2:17:03second amendment this is why the right
2:17:05to bear arms existed right i studied it
2:17:08right and this is why you have three
2:17:09branches of government when there was a
2:17:11debate when the constitution was being
2:17:13put in effect there was a great debate
2:17:15on what type of government we gonna have
2:17:17right they knew that the government was
2:17:18corrupt so they put all these checks and
2:17:20balances in place right so that we
2:17:23wouldn't be abused by the government
2:17:25right so when we see government abuse as
2:17:27our responsibility is our obligation to
2:17:31stand up and do something about it if
2:17:32not then you're a victim i don't want to
2:17:34be a victim i believe in fighting back
2:17:36so i believe that the call to action is
2:17:38that every american
2:17:40every person that's on this shore should
2:17:42stand up and change something in your
2:17:44lifetime
2:17:45change something to make it a better
2:17:46place and i just believe that from the
2:17:48core of my being
2:17:49and when you talk about the government
2:17:51being involved i mean what about the
2:17:53people that were involved in january 6th
2:17:55that were asian provocateurs yes that
2:17:57were encouraging people to go into the
2:17:59capital yes
2:18:01there's people that are on record that
2:18:03they 100
2:18:04got that they know
2:18:06most likely were federal agents that did
2:18:08this that have faced no criminal
2:18:11consequences whatsoever they were
2:18:13actively encouraging people
2:18:15they know who these people are yes
2:18:17there's video of it you can watch it
2:18:18yourself yes that's like the formula i
2:18:20told you yes right they protect and form
2:18:22it yeah to lock up somebody else this is
2:18:24how our government works yeah they're
2:18:26trying to get people to commit crimes so
2:18:28that they could get them but what is the
2:18:30po so explain that to me so
2:18:32you have
2:18:35is is your point joe that you should be
2:18:37going after if you're gonna go after the
2:18:39people that actually were
2:18:41were revved up to do it you should
2:18:44actually
2:18:45go after the people that revved them up
2:18:47well they are doing that they are going
2:18:48after some of the people that revved
2:18:50them up they're just not going after
2:18:51federal agents that revved them up
2:18:53there's people that encourage people to
2:18:55commit crimes that would not have
2:18:56necessarily done those crimes in the
2:18:58first place there's a
2:19:00an example of a guy who the
2:19:03i don't even want to name the the branch
2:19:05of government but they convinced this
2:19:07guy
2:19:08they gave him a fake bomb and they
2:19:10convinced him that he was uh an
2:19:13extremist a religious extremist they
2:19:15convinced he was a 19 year old kid very
2:19:17impressionable not very bright they
2:19:19convinced him to use this cellular phone
2:19:22to activate this device that didn't even
2:19:24work and then they arrested him they
2:19:26gave him the bomb it wasn't a bomb they
2:19:29talked him into doing it they convinced
2:19:31him that he was a martyr and they
2:19:33convinced him that he was doing this for
2:19:35a righteous holy cause and then they
2:19:37arrested him entrapment entrapment it
2:19:39was it was a hundred percent not just
2:19:41entrapment but they built the whole
2:19:44organization around him wow like they
2:19:47built this case around getting this guy
2:19:50to plant this bomb and and ignite this
2:19:52bomb that doesn't even work it's not
2:19:54even really a bomb
2:19:55and then they arrested him
2:19:57i mean what is that is that is that
2:19:59protecting or serving what is that right
2:20:01what the [ __ ] is that and i think that
2:20:04speaks to what we were talking about
2:20:05earlier that part of the problem is that
2:20:07this is a game and these guys are trying
2:20:09to convict people and if you can arrest
2:20:11someone who was a religious extremist
2:20:14that wanted to blow up a bomb and they
2:20:17wanted to become a martyr and they
2:20:18wanted to do this because they felt like
2:20:20this was a a righteous thing to do
2:20:22because they were convinced by people
2:20:24what the [ __ ] kind of what what kind of
2:20:27a government is this
2:20:28i mean that i you know i had never
2:20:30really looked at it that way there's a
2:20:32lot of those cases yeah i never really
2:20:33looked at it that way because a lot of
2:20:35these a lot of the the people that were
2:20:37involved in january 6th end up becoming
2:20:39fall guys
2:20:40fall men and women but
2:20:43you know look what kind of government is
2:20:45this
2:20:46it you know there's a reason you either
2:20:48believe it or you don't is there a
2:20:50reason why there is a separation of
2:20:52powers
2:20:53do we believe that fundamentally that
2:20:54the executive branch should do their job
2:20:57and the judiciary should do theirs i do
2:20:59or all right so i got out of prison all
2:21:01right so if that if you believe that
2:21:03what the [ __ ] is a governor who is an
2:21:06executive right going and removing
2:21:09someone from the judiciary
2:21:11how do we not how do we not get as human
2:21:14beings up in arms about that i don't
2:21:17understand it then if we elect people to
2:21:20do a job
2:21:21and we think they might not do that job
2:21:24you can remove them from power that law
2:21:26is unconstitutional we should remove the
2:21:28law that allows the governor to do that
2:21:30in every state and what's gonna happen
2:21:32with this guy andrew warren who was the
2:21:34state attorney that was removed what's
2:21:35gonna happen is he's gonna appeal this
2:21:37he's gonna launch a fight okay
2:21:39and the senate this is where the lines
2:21:42start to get blurred and we have to
2:21:43start thinking what are we doing as a do
2:21:46we believe in the in the dream of
2:21:47america
2:21:49the
2:21:51senate in florida is controlled by
2:21:53republicans the law in florida says if
2:21:55the senate affirms the suspension he's
2:21:58suspended it's a kangaroo court he's
2:22:00getting suspended they're going to
2:22:02affirm it that's going to happen
2:22:04so
2:22:04you know if you were a democrat
2:22:06republican libertarian if you just
2:22:09believe in america you should not get
2:22:12behind somebody that is willing to go
2:22:14move an elected official from office on
2:22:17something they might do
2:22:19but allow and stand idle behind a county
2:22:23ordinance that circumvents state law i
2:22:24just don't get
2:22:26why people don't get more pissed off by
2:22:28this i tell you something that's more
2:22:30more egregious to me than that where's
2:22:32the presumption of innocence right right
2:22:34where is the presumption of innocence
2:22:36once he was removed
2:22:38right there is a presumption that he's
2:22:40guilty
2:22:41right he's removed then you give him a
2:22:43hearing after the fact that's not how
2:22:44due process work
2:22:45right he's accused of doing something
2:22:48but he was removed first what does that
2:22:50happen then yeah i don't i don't i just
2:22:53don't understand it and i think that
2:22:55it's people are afraid
2:22:57of the consequences of abandoning who
2:22:59they think other people should think
2:23:01they support
2:23:02you know i have so i have a cousin
2:23:05whose children have no [ __ ] earthly
2:23:08idea why they stand for what they stand
2:23:10for
2:23:11but their parents are
2:23:13right-wing republicans so they think
2:23:15they should do that i have another
2:23:17cousin whose kids and they're actually
2:23:20sisters
2:23:22her kids are growing up in a
2:23:24quote-unquote progressive household and
2:23:26they think that they should be
2:23:28everything that's on the left we are
2:23:30influenced by the people that rear us
2:23:33right and i feel like
2:23:35what i'm trying to encourage my kids to
2:23:37do is we don't raise them and i'm not
2:23:40saying this is the right way maybe i'm
2:23:41[ __ ] totally off on this we don't
2:23:44raise them as catholic buddhists jewish
2:23:47you know we we raise them as human
2:23:50beings we try to teach them a little bit
2:23:52about everything
2:23:53and say you make the decision do you
2:23:55believe you know my daughter talks to me
2:23:57about god
2:23:58do you believe in god dad i don't even
2:24:00know what that means i just don't i
2:24:02would rather be honest with you is it a
2:24:05man with a white beard that sits in the
2:24:06sky
2:24:08is it a feeling that you get
2:24:10um i don't know right and i i don't know
2:24:13how you reinvent
2:24:15human beings
2:24:17you know other than what i know about
2:24:19what might change human beings and the
2:24:22only thing that i think help that
2:24:24changes them is having the ability to
2:24:26let your guard down
2:24:28and say maybe everything
2:24:30that i thought i knew
2:24:32is not true
2:24:34and maybe everything that i was taught
2:24:36by the people i held up as heroes as
2:24:38idols
2:24:39you know we all have that moment where
2:24:43we stop viewing our parents
2:24:45as superheroes and as human beings
2:24:49and it's a it's a jagged pill to swallow
2:24:51right that's the work that's the work
2:24:52that you're doing see that's the work
2:24:54going back and and pre-condit you know
2:24:56use precondition a certain way so as you
2:24:59get older you go back and you look at
2:25:01those conditions and see if they still
2:25:02apply i'll give you a good example of
2:25:04what you just said this summer
2:25:06in the uh family and friends
2:25:07organization we had summer youth
2:25:09right
2:25:10so all of them was from impoverished
2:25:12neighborhoods had some from brownsville
2:25:14and some from uh red hook
2:25:16so we gave him a case of a lady that was
2:25:19accused she rode in and she was accused
2:25:20of killing a kid
2:25:22the first group of kids had it for two
2:25:23weeks and they saying well we really
2:25:25just don't know
2:25:27we really just don't know we just can't
2:25:28tell we need a medical examiner to
2:25:30determine if the way the kid was hit
2:25:32could create those you know those
2:25:35injuries
2:25:36the second group came in from
2:25:37brownsville the worst part of brooklyn
2:25:39and they was dead for one day i gave him
2:25:41the case
2:25:43and my wife called me the next day she
2:25:44said you gotta hear what these kids got
2:25:45to say
2:25:46they said mr hamilton this [ __ ] is
2:25:48guilty right i said why you come to that
2:25:50conclusion he said he went on facebook
2:25:51we went on instagram we seen statements
2:25:53she made we disornate
2:25:55but two group of kids
2:25:57come to two different conclusions one
2:25:59coming one day and i say to them here we
2:26:02objective
2:26:03right we objective we don't know if she
2:26:04made that facebook account we don't know
2:26:06if it's authentic we don't know that
2:26:08right but to show the way that they
2:26:10think
2:26:11right conservative kids from brownsville
2:26:14you would never think that kids in
2:26:15brownsville would be conservative
2:26:17right but they were
2:26:19because they believe
2:26:21that
2:26:22the kid was killed
2:26:24three years old
2:26:25the mother should have some asses you in
2:26:27the house with them
2:26:29right you should know what happened you
2:26:31should be so it's just it's just you
2:26:32know like you said it could be the way
2:26:33that you were raised it could be
2:26:35conditions
2:26:36but you know i teach my daughter that's
2:26:38nine years old we have a debate in my
2:26:40house
2:26:40right since she was a kid i told her she
2:26:42got freedom of speech
2:26:44you got freedom of speech in his house
2:26:45you tell me what you're thinking you
2:26:47tell me i don't care what it is her
2:26:48mother says you don't got no freedom of
2:26:50speech with me that stops with your
2:26:52father
2:26:54you know
2:26:55but this is the debate you know cause i
2:26:56want him to feel free
2:26:58to tell me anything and we have it every
2:27:00day she's nine now you know and she'll
2:27:02tell you what that i got for yes you do
2:27:03i'm gonna be all right you better watch
2:27:04your mouth with me
2:27:08well
2:27:10you know you said what the call to
2:27:12action is
2:27:13earlier yeah i agree with you i think
2:27:15the call to action is to believe that
2:27:17you can make change happen
2:27:20to believe that you
2:27:22there are things that you can do that
2:27:24will move the needle and i feel like you
2:27:27know i've heard this before
2:27:29i would vote but it's just one vote
2:27:32that's [ __ ] man that's a cop out
2:27:34yeah you know you could i agree that
2:27:37maybe one vote in a big democratic state
2:27:40might not be the answer
2:27:42but you know you never know
2:27:45what it is that you're going to do that
2:27:47is going to change a mind change
2:27:50you know someone's perspective on
2:27:52something
2:27:53you know that's what what i try to do i
2:27:55don't i don't know
2:27:56what i don't know any other way to do it
2:27:58because none of these are easy easily
2:28:00solvable problems how do you fix the
2:28:03criminal justice system do you start
2:28:05from scratch you can't
2:28:07well i would say in brooklyn um what we
2:28:10did with a voter block we was able to
2:28:12remove
2:28:14the bad prosecutor and put one in that
2:28:16had the values and ideas of the people
2:28:18in brooklyn
2:28:19right so i i do agree with you that you
2:28:22know when you talk about locally
2:28:24right we can create voters blocked
2:28:26people talk about the jews they vote on
2:28:28one block most of them they're orthodox
2:28:30right they vote in one block most of
2:28:32them right when you talk about orthodox
2:28:34jews so i believe that we can change the
2:28:36system
2:28:37by organizing people right to understand
2:28:40and educating them look we talk about
2:28:42educating judges not just human people
2:28:45junk science we talk about it all the
2:28:47time right that's going to be a part of
2:28:48our curricula right what's junk science
2:28:51people believe in
2:28:52fingerprints they believe in blood
2:28:54splatter they believe in these sciences
2:28:56bite mark they really believe that this
2:28:58is a science that is reliable right our
2:29:01job is to educate them on how unreliable
2:29:03it is and how when people are sitting on
2:29:04jurors that they're being fooled right
2:29:07they're being fooled
2:29:09yeah i mean isn't that isn't that scary
2:29:13the case of bruce bryant
2:29:15that i've talked about before a
2:29:17ballistics expert gets on the stand
2:29:20and i'm not making this up the trial
2:29:21transcript is public people can read it
2:29:24the ballistics expert gets on the stand
2:29:27and they're trying to prove that two
2:29:28guns were used in this crime
2:29:30so
2:29:31you you're you're a man that knows
2:29:33something about ballistics right you you
2:29:36own guns and shoot guns
2:29:39he says that it was a 380 all right that
2:29:43was used in this crime
2:29:45and
2:29:46the prosecutor
2:29:48in this case serve 30 months in federal
2:29:51prison for bribing witnesses not in the
2:29:54bruce bryan case later on all right
2:29:57the prosecutor in this case
2:29:59is a guy named john scarpa john
2:30:02scrubber john scarpa has the ballistic
2:30:05expert on the stand and he says you
2:30:08found two shell casings
2:30:11and he says yes and were you able to
2:30:13identify common characteristics in those
2:30:15shell casings
2:30:16such that you were able to determine
2:30:18whether they or not they came from the
2:30:20same gun
2:30:22and he said to a degree of scientific
2:30:23certainty
2:30:25the markings on those shell casings lead
2:30:27me to believe that they came from the
2:30:29same gun
2:30:30and he came up with all the reasons why
2:30:32the strike shell casey shell casings and
2:30:35that's that's outrageous okay
2:30:37well
2:30:38he then says
2:30:40well you also found two bullet fragments
2:30:43and
2:30:44he says yes i found them at the autopsy
2:30:47and he said can you match the bullet
2:30:48fragments up to those shell casings
2:30:51he said no to his credit
2:30:53because you they pass through different
2:30:55parts of the gun all right
2:30:57and he said
2:30:59so how many guns were used in this crime
2:31:02he said at least two
2:31:05and he's basing this on the same caliber
2:31:07weapon same caliber weapon same caliber
2:31:09weapon and what what about the shell
2:31:11casings would indicate they're from
2:31:12different guns that's just nothing he
2:31:15said that they came from the same gun
2:31:16but how was that but the way they were
2:31:18in ejected yeah the way that they were
2:31:21there are there are markings that are
2:31:23left
2:31:24that he can match up to the barrel of
2:31:26the gun and say that the shell casings
2:31:28that's a whole different thing it's a
2:31:30whole different thing they get ejected
2:31:32they get ejected and he's saying that
2:31:34upon ejection that marks are left on the
2:31:36shell casings
2:31:38that
2:31:39if the shell casings have the same
2:31:42common identifying characteristics you
2:31:45can say to a degree of scientific
2:31:47certainty that they were ejected from
2:31:49the same gun do you agree with that
2:31:51um
2:31:51[Music]
2:31:53i don't
2:31:55i do think that they've never heard that
2:31:56being used before oh is that a common
2:31:58thing it's a common it's a common
2:32:00science that's peddled in courts all
2:32:02over the country and do you agree that
2:32:04that's junk science like blood
2:32:05splattering and a lot of other things
2:32:07that you call it yes i'm gonna and i'm
2:32:08gonna tell you what's even junkier okay
2:32:11here's what here's what makes it really
2:32:13hard to swallow
2:32:14they then find two bullet fragments now
2:32:17the logic is that those fragments came
2:32:19from those two shell casings because no
2:32:21other shell casings were found and he
2:32:24says to his credit
2:32:26is a detective hopkins
2:32:29those sho those bullet fragments could
2:32:31have come from another gun could have
2:32:34come
2:32:35okay so the prosecutor says to him so
2:32:37how many guns maximum would you say were
2:32:40using this crime he said at least two
2:32:43the prosecutor then within the same two
2:32:46pages of transcript says
2:32:48if i take a gun and shoot it into that
2:32:51file cabinet in front of this jury
2:32:54and you find
2:32:56two shell casings and two bullet
2:32:58fragments
2:32:59how many guns will you say were used in
2:33:03my shooting the file cabinet
2:33:05and without missing a beat the
2:33:07ballistics expert says two
2:33:10crazy how he says even though it was
2:33:13from one gun
2:33:14the jury just saw me shoot the file
2:33:16cabinet he said yeah because i can't
2:33:18tell you whether or not those two bullet
2:33:21fragments match those two shell casings
2:33:24and the
2:33:26i i literally
2:33:28had to read it five times i called derek
2:33:30i said this was so in other words what
2:33:32he's saying is in other words what he's
2:33:34saying to
2:33:36introduce the possibility
2:33:38that two guns were used in a crime
2:33:42he is saying that if you find two shell
2:33:44casings and two bullet fragments you
2:33:46cannot assume that those bullet
2:33:49fragments came from those shell casings
2:33:52he's introducing the possibility that
2:33:54two guns were used right but possibility
2:33:56versus deciding that there was two guns
2:34:00they convicted him and he's
2:34:02since
2:34:0320 yes 37 and a half years to life in
2:34:06prison have they replicated this have
2:34:08they shot different rounds through
2:34:10different pistols and never
2:34:12never and what happens is is that when
2:34:15jurors hear a detective and they hear
2:34:17ballistics expert it's over it's game
2:34:19over and this is because they're they
2:34:22don't know yeah they don't know listen
2:34:24you know bite mark evidence
2:34:26was born out of the salem witch trials
2:34:29and a judge just accepted it it was born
2:34:32you know they they
2:34:33bite mark evidence odontology is
2:34:35basically out of the criminal justice
2:34:37system now because it has been outed as
2:34:40a junk science but for decades and
2:34:42decades and decades they could claim
2:34:44it's pretty handy that i have a skull
2:34:47with some teeth here
2:34:49they would claim that you could make an
2:34:51indentation in someone's skin and match
2:34:54it up to the ridges in this tooth
2:34:56okay and there was a guy by the name of
2:34:59west that would testify case after case
2:35:02after case
2:35:03that you could look at the indentation
2:35:05in the skin
2:35:06and you could match it up to teeth marks
2:35:10and it was proven to be such junk
2:35:12science
2:35:13that they
2:35:14set him up
2:35:16and they gave him the teeth impressions
2:35:18of a detective
2:35:20and they asked him if the detective's
2:35:22teeth they told him that it was from the
2:35:24suspect
2:35:25and he said it it's a perfect match
2:35:28because he was told it was a suspect so
2:35:30odentology has basically worked its way
2:35:32out of the criminal justice system it
2:35:33was born out of the salem witch trials
2:35:36how was it born out of the salem butcher
2:35:37so there was a there was a case of a guy
2:35:41who
2:35:42um
2:35:44they claimed was
2:35:46biting young children and killing them
2:35:49and sacrificing them
2:35:51and that he was a witch
2:35:54and it was in this i think it was in the
2:35:561600s the salem witch trials
2:35:58and they paraded him around they pried
2:36:01his mouth open they put a stick in his
2:36:04teeth and they said to the jury look
2:36:06see that ridge you see that slope in his
2:36:09tooth that is what left the indentation
2:36:11in this child's skin
2:36:13now it was later proven that this man
2:36:16didn't commit these crimes he was hung
2:36:18in a public hanging yes
2:36:20i have there's if you want to listen to
2:36:21wrongful uh here's my shameless plug
2:36:23wrongful conviction junk science season
2:36:26one i did the first episode on this
2:36:29they ended up finding out that this man
2:36:30was not only innocent he was in jail in
2:36:32another town when these crimes were
2:36:34committed it's the first case of a
2:36:37wrongful conviction
2:36:38and
2:36:39compensation
2:36:41because the commonwealth of
2:36:42massachusetts ended up compensating his
2:36:44family
2:36:45for
2:36:46executing him for a crime he didn't
2:36:48commit and that was the first known case
2:36:52of of teeth marks being bite marks being
2:36:55used since then it's been outed as a
2:36:57junk science but it's one of the few
2:36:59junk sciences that has been outed in
2:37:012009 it was in 2009 the national academy
2:37:05of sciences did a a study
2:37:08um on forensic sciences and the only one
2:37:10that they could find was even remotely
2:37:12credible was dna so everything that we
2:37:15knew about forensic signs should have
2:37:18been turned on its head
2:37:20fingerprints
2:37:21are completely subjective we're taught
2:37:23that they're the gold standard they're
2:37:24just not subjective you know brandon
2:37:27mayfield case
2:37:29yeah that's a great example yes prove
2:37:30that he was a doctor
2:37:33who they locked up and accused him of
2:37:34blowing up something in scotland i
2:37:36believe it was
2:37:37and they found out that they wasn't his
2:37:39prince it was actually a terrorist
2:37:41prince
2:37:42and the fbi kept saying it was his and
2:37:44his scotland yard did their own
2:37:45fingerprint analysis and his honorary
2:37:48brandon mayfield and got the real
2:37:49terrorists they committed the crime and
2:37:51fingerprints was used in that and and
2:37:54what they never told people the error
2:37:56rate of fingerprints they would tell you
2:37:58that it's 100 reliable and we find out
2:38:01now the error rate in some cases is 50
2:38:04so so it's just terrible and these are
2:38:06the sciences that we indoctrinated to
2:38:08believe we believe that you couldn't
2:38:09tell a juror that fingerprints are not
2:38:12reliable till today they still believe
2:38:14that fingerprints are absolute find your
2:38:16print that's it you committed the crime
2:38:18the similarities of the witch trials and
2:38:21what happens today is that you're you
2:38:23we're looking for
2:38:26we're looking to take evil people off
2:38:28the street
2:38:29right that's what they were looking for
2:38:31back then they thought that they were
2:38:33going to get rid of witches they thought
2:38:35they were going to get rid of evil
2:38:36that's exactly right yeah do you know
2:38:38the source of the salem witch trials you
2:38:40know what it all started from you mean
2:38:42the hysteria yeah around that yeah not
2:38:45no i'm not urgot oh
2:38:48these people were eating bread that had
2:38:51gone through the wheat had gone through
2:38:53a late frost and it develops fungus
2:38:55called ergot and ergot is uh psychedelic
2:38:58so it's very similar to lsd so these
2:39:01people were all tripping balls eating
2:39:04bad wheat and and all the other products
2:39:07that they made with with the wheat bread
2:39:08and all these different things and they
2:39:10were getting ergot poisoning so they
2:39:11were all tripping and they were all
2:39:13conjuring up this notion that there were
2:39:14witches out there exactly it was like
2:39:16this hysteria for a while and then when
2:39:20the late frost was gone and all that
2:39:21wheat was consumed they went back to
2:39:23normal wow
2:39:25and that's that's why there was a waste
2:39:27there was a waning
2:39:28there's some dispute about this but
2:39:30there's no dispute about whether or not
2:39:32there was a late frost there's no
2:39:33there's some dispute about the way they
2:39:36cook the bread and whether or not
2:39:38ergot would still be uh available
2:39:42but there's no dispute that there was a
2:39:44late frost when they do uh core samples
2:39:47of uh the earth and they find out during
2:39:48that time period that this matches up to
2:39:52what is established science on you know
2:39:54on on this and they have found residue
2:39:56of ergot and they know that in similar
2:39:59situations when people have consumed
2:40:01ergot
2:40:02they have these
2:40:04horrific unexpected psychedelic
2:40:05consequences
2:40:07yeah i mean it was if in doing the
2:40:10research for this uh
2:40:12wrongful conviction junk science i i
2:40:14went back to the this was a couple of
2:40:16years ago when we first met many years i
2:40:18guess four four three four years ago
2:40:20i was doing the the research into the
2:40:22origin stories of all these junk
2:40:24sciences
2:40:25and i was just blown away that nobody
2:40:27said wait a second
2:40:29how how why are we accepting this and
2:40:31the way things become legal precedent in
2:40:34our system
2:40:35is is you know it's it's scary because
2:40:38if one judge accepts it then other
2:40:40people start citing it and if other
2:40:43people start saying well there is
2:40:44precedent here then it just becomes
2:40:46ingrained in the system and it's
2:40:48happened with everything from
2:40:49fingerprints to blood spatter
2:40:52to
2:40:53bite mark impressions
2:40:55to tread marks right
2:40:57and
2:40:58you know
2:41:00if you look at the origin story of each
2:41:02of these for you know so-called forensic
2:41:04sciences you would think that you were
2:41:07um
2:41:08listening to some tale of like a
2:41:10religion that was cooked up i mean
2:41:12you know
2:41:14blood spatter evidence was born in the
2:41:16basement of some [ __ ] crackpot in
2:41:18upstate new york that was taking
2:41:21college-age girls and having them dip
2:41:23their hair into the blood of cadaver
2:41:25dogs and fling it around the room
2:41:28and they would make these assumptions
2:41:30about the direction in which a certain
2:41:32weapon was wielded i mean that's still
2:41:34used today now is there some blood
2:41:37spatter evidence that is useful yes you
2:41:39can tell the difference between
2:41:41projected blood that's spattered on a
2:41:43wall
2:41:44or a transfer stain
2:41:46or blood that has been dropped from
2:41:49you know dripping from a wound
2:41:52all of these like
2:41:54[ __ ]
2:41:55um
2:41:56horseshit forensic scientists infect a
2:41:59lot of the cases we work on clementia
2:42:01giri's case we've talked about it on
2:42:03this i can't talk too much about it
2:42:04because if you could believe it the
2:42:06state of florida is doubling down he's
2:42:08been exonerated he's now suing them for
2:42:11federal civil rights violations failure
2:42:15to investigate i have to try the case in
2:42:17december where i'm trying to get him
2:42:20compensated and they're saying he still
2:42:22did it that's what they do they're
2:42:24saying he still did it and i have found
2:42:26out in the case
2:42:27that they re-reviewed i i mean
2:42:31talk about fingerprints they re-reviewed
2:42:34the forensic services unit of the
2:42:36seminole county sheriff's office and
2:42:38found out that this latent print
2:42:40examiner had wrongfully
2:42:43claimed in
2:42:45numerous cases that she could match a
2:42:47print to a suspect the florida
2:42:49department of law enforcement
2:42:51and an independent agency deemed that
2:42:54she had
2:42:55made mistakes to the point where she
2:42:58couldn't be relied upon and you think
2:43:00that when you hear from a fingerprint
2:43:02expert what do jurors know they know
2:43:04what they're being educated about and if
2:43:06a judge lets it in why would they
2:43:08question
2:43:09a certified latent print examiner
2:43:12well i don't know might you question
2:43:14them if you found out as i found out
2:43:17during clementi's case
2:43:19during discovery something i didn't even
2:43:21know when i exonerated him
2:43:23that the detective in the case was going
2:43:25down to the lab
2:43:27and saying this is the suspect did you
2:43:30match the prince yet
2:43:32you know we're human and we get
2:43:35influenced by people
2:43:36and that shouldn't be happening it
2:43:38creates confirmation bias
2:43:41and you know
2:43:43i i didn't even know it at the time and
2:43:45you end up finding out that there is no
2:43:47training manual there are no training
2:43:49standards and there are standard
2:43:50operating procedures there's no one
2:43:52doing administrative review on their
2:43:53work you would think if we're going to
2:43:55be so quick to accuse someone of a crime
2:43:58and take their freedom away want to make
2:44:00damn sure we're getting it right right i
2:44:03think it speaks to what we're talking
2:44:04about earlier that people when you set
2:44:06up this thing whether it's with cops or
2:44:08with prosecutors where a conviction is
2:44:10good for their career and good for their
2:44:13record that's a point they want to score
2:44:15that point they want to win when you
2:44:16take away that point they want to go to
2:44:18a review
2:44:19and that's what's happening clementi's
2:44:21case i'm sure they want to win yeah they
2:44:24got their w taken away they want it back
2:44:26yeah well they think they're going to be
2:44:27able to connive their way and weasel
2:44:29their way through it even when if they
2:44:31look at what you've said just on this
2:44:33podcast where you reviewed it and
2:44:35brought me to tears there's this
2:44:38astounding evidence that he's innocent
2:44:40well it's not just astounding evidence
2:44:42that he's innocent i had my perry mason
2:44:44moment i got the real killer to
2:44:45essentially confess on the stand
2:44:48essentially
2:44:49and yeah i mean look we had we had a a
2:44:52mediation in the case right
2:44:55it's confidential
2:44:57so i'm not allowed to say but they
2:44:59insisted on him being there
2:45:01now
2:45:03why do you want the person there that
2:45:06has already lived this trauma right to
2:45:09hear you reaccuse him of the crime right
2:45:11and
2:45:12you know he's been exonerating when he's
2:45:14been exonerated you didn't exonerate him
2:45:16for no reason why can't you just pay him
2:45:19admit that you [ __ ] up and pay him now
2:45:21i have to go he has to relive this whole
2:45:23experience again i'm happy to do it
2:45:25because it's a labor of love for me the
2:45:28guy that's trying the case with me is a
2:45:29guy named david rudolph
2:45:31who um
2:45:33has has a bit of a cult following
2:45:35because he was the lawyer and then
2:45:36netflix hit the staircase
2:45:39where the guy peterson was accused of
2:45:40pushing his wife down the stairs
2:45:43um and he's just a tremendous civil
2:45:45rights lawyer who's seen it all david's
2:45:47in the 70s by now he's mind-blowing have
2:45:50you seen the the most recent evidence
2:45:52about that did they think an owl
2:45:54attacked that lady i actually think
2:45:55there's something to it there's a
2:45:56hundred percent something to it because
2:45:58they do that
2:45:59these this lady has claw marks on her
2:46:01head she was bleeding blood outside of
2:46:03the house so she was attacked
2:46:06look people when they see their own
2:46:08blood when they get hit they [ __ ]
2:46:09faint all the time i watched a friend of
2:46:11mine faint the other day because he was
2:46:13getting an iv drip he saw blood squirt
2:46:15out of his arm and he started panicking
2:46:18and he fainted imagine getting hit in
2:46:20the head by a [ __ ] owl and then you
2:46:22walk inside the house moments later then
2:46:24you fall down a flight of stairs it's
2:46:25normal beat the beak marks yes
2:46:28david told me about this years ago
2:46:31before the the document you know david
2:46:33before the documentary came out now it
2:46:35was pretty ingenious what he did he had
2:46:38them following him for years
2:46:40and he he said you have to embargo the
2:46:43footage
2:46:44until his final appeal is exhausted
2:46:46david has gone on he would be an amazing
2:46:49guest him and his wife sonia
2:46:51um have gone on to become tremendous
2:46:54criminal justice reform advocates some
2:46:56of the finest civil rights attorneys he
2:46:58just wrote a tremendous book
2:47:01david rudolph you should check out his
2:47:02book he told me about the owl theory
2:47:05years before it ever got pressed he said
2:47:07josh i
2:47:08i actually think a [ __ ] owl did this
2:47:10if you look at a woman's head and a full
2:47:12head of hair tell me that [ __ ] doesn't
2:47:14look like an animal and not only does it
2:47:16not look like an animal but there are
2:47:18claw mark impressions and a beak
2:47:20impression in the same exact spot that
2:47:22an owl will do it and people say come on
2:47:24an owl yeah
2:47:26all the [ __ ] time why would a guy
2:47:27push his wife down the stairs for what
2:47:29[ __ ] reason for what [ __ ] reason
2:47:31and also it's like there's a history of
2:47:33that
2:47:34owls attack people yes it happens
2:47:36they're aggressive creatures they have
2:47:38they're [ __ ] ruthless predators with
2:47:39the brain the size of your thumb
2:47:42they're not brilliant they're not
2:47:43[ __ ] give a hoot don't pollute that's
2:47:45all horseshit
2:47:46we're out of our [ __ ] minds with that
2:47:48[ __ ] how many licks does it take to get
2:47:49to the center of a tutorial
2:47:52it's not a [ __ ] wise animal it's a
2:47:54ruthless predator oh and he he told me
2:47:57the whole theory and then i said man
2:48:00what have you been smoking so he said to
2:48:02me let me show you the photos
2:48:04i'm going to show you the crime scene
2:48:06photos and then i'm going to show you
2:48:07the impression that an owl attack
2:48:09there's blood outside the house he
2:48:11showed it to me he goes yeah he said if
2:48:13he pushed her down the stairs and that's
2:48:15where the where the um
2:48:18take them at their word that's where the
2:48:19murder took place the so-called murder
2:48:21how the [ __ ] was she bleeding when they
2:48:23were out by the pool walking in toward
2:48:25the pool exactly i believe it
2:48:27wholeheartedly i don't believe that guy
2:48:28killed his wife
2:48:30it doesn't seem like he did it certainly
2:48:32seems like at the very least she was
2:48:34attacked by an owl before he killed her
2:48:36can you imagine the luck
2:48:38the bad luck you have to have
2:48:41to get attacked by a [ __ ] owl it's
2:48:44you know what man if you're outside at
2:48:45night it's not that bad luck like it can
2:48:48happen
2:48:49well it's not it's not you know the best
2:48:52luck in the world but that's a
2:48:53possibility that's a possibility i'll
2:48:54tell you what that's more probable
2:48:57than somehow being a witness to six
2:48:59murders yeah right
2:49:01and and also being on record calling
2:49:03that woman a lion crackhead right
2:49:05right
2:49:06yeah and then using her as a witness
2:49:08you know this this uh use of jailhouse
2:49:11informants maybe we close on this yes
2:49:14pamela kolov
2:49:16um is an investigative reporter
2:49:19that wrote a a an award-winning story
2:49:23about the most notorious jailhouse
2:49:26snitch in history named paul skelnick
2:49:29he was the informant that was used and
2:49:31where do you think florida wow he was
2:49:34used in over 20 cases
2:49:37and if you read the the article
2:49:41in i believe it's in texas monthly that
2:49:44she wrote she won she won
2:49:46um
2:49:48a very prestigious award for like
2:49:50investigative
2:49:52journalist of the year for this story
2:49:54about paul skelnick
2:49:56and then you tell me
2:49:58how you don't give james daily a
2:50:00clemency hearing this guy claims that
2:50:03james daly walked by his cell a known
2:50:06informant
2:50:07and said hey by the way
2:50:09hey you and foremen that are in
2:50:11isolation hey by the way i killed this
2:50:13girl what do you think about that
2:50:16you read that story that a call to
2:50:18action for your listeners would be go
2:50:20read
2:50:21the the story that pamela kolov
2:50:24c-o-l-o-f-f
2:50:26wrote about paul scalnick
2:50:28and watch the 2020 and if you're not
2:50:31enraged that this guy put somebody on
2:50:34death row on his word alone with no
2:50:37physical evidence i don't know what else
2:50:39will inspire you to get involved insane
2:50:42there's a feeling of helplessness that i
2:50:45get and i'm sure a lot of people also
2:50:46get listening to this there's so many
2:50:48cases there's so many cases and for
2:50:51every clementi for every case like derek
2:50:53for every case that you get out
2:50:55there's countless more that are still
2:50:57being locked up
2:50:58there's a terrible feeling
2:51:00it's a terrible feeling to know that
2:51:02there's people out there that didn't do
2:51:04anything wrong
2:51:06or at least didn't do the crime that
2:51:07they've been accused of
2:51:09and they're going to be locked in jail
2:51:10for the rest of their life and that this
2:51:11is the system that we rely on and this
2:51:14is when you call the police when you you
2:51:16know you see someone getting tried and
2:51:18convicted and you sleep well knowing
2:51:19that oh good they got the good god they
2:51:21got the bad guy they got the right
2:51:22person that it's not right
2:51:24well listen
2:51:26another call to action would be if you
2:51:28get called to jury duty
2:51:30this notion that there is a presumption
2:51:32of innocence only exists if you breathe
2:51:35life into it absolutely do not believe
2:51:38the headline when you hear so and so
2:51:40committed the crime
2:51:42someone someone was arrested someone
2:51:45believe they're innocent
2:51:47actually start there the question that i
2:51:49get the most traction
2:51:52from
2:51:53is i ask people during jury selection
2:51:56you know i just uh
2:51:58picked the jury in a case that is not so
2:52:01sensational but for the media it was one
2:52:04of the so-called varsity blues cases
2:52:07all right you've you've heard of these
2:52:09cases where the parents were
2:52:11accused of bribing the teachers giving
2:52:13them money yeah bribing the universities
2:52:15to get their students in and oh that's
2:52:18like uh the the california case yeah the
2:52:20lori laughlin case all right well this
2:52:23guy was accused of in boston
2:52:25of putting 180 000 in a brown paper bag
2:52:29and giving it to the tennis coach so
2:52:31that his daughter could get in fake a
2:52:33shoulder injury and not be on the tennis
2:52:35team now
2:52:36you have
2:52:38the
2:52:39tide of
2:52:41a tidal wave of media lori laughlin was
2:52:44accused of it
2:52:46you know a bunch of famous people and
2:52:48those cases were all about their kids
2:52:50never played sports it was all like
2:52:52phony pictures and this guy's daughter
2:52:55actually played tennis she played at a
2:52:57prep school
2:52:59he was the
2:53:01um
2:53:02he had gone to school and played college
2:53:05tennis with the tennis coach of
2:53:06georgetown right they went to
2:53:09college together now this guy's the the
2:53:11coach of georgetown they go out they
2:53:14they are at an alumni event and he says
2:53:17my daughter's actually a pretty good
2:53:18tennis player she tries her ass off
2:53:21georgetown is a private school it's a
2:53:23private business
2:53:24one of their criteria for getting people
2:53:27into the school
2:53:29is
2:53:29to look at their
2:53:31their
2:53:32aptitude for philanthropy are they from
2:53:35a wealthy family they have every right
2:53:38to run their business how they want to
2:53:40they're not a private school i mean
2:53:41they're not a public school
2:53:43so they had a memo an internal memo that
2:53:47said that the coaches could get
2:53:48gratuities
2:53:50the tennis coach made something like 50
2:53:52000 a year
2:53:54the basketball coach made millions of
2:53:56dollars they were allowed to get tips
2:53:58gratuities so someone could give them a
2:54:00hundred and eighty thousand dollars yes
2:54:02that's legal so it was legal that seems
2:54:04a little
2:54:07cash and a brown paper bag that's legal
2:54:10yes you could give them a gratuity
2:54:11sounds like it might have tax
2:54:13implications but yeah all right so my
2:54:15question during jury selection roy black
2:54:18one of the best criminal defense
2:54:19attorneys of our time
2:54:21he he
2:54:22defended william kennedy smith
2:54:25yeah he's from florida he's a very
2:54:27famous criminal defense attorney said
2:54:29you pick the jury in federal court
2:54:32here's somebody whose freedom is on the
2:54:34line and i am forced to rush
2:54:37can i ask a question please let me ask
2:54:40the judge won't let me ask a single
2:54:42[ __ ] question so finally
2:54:44she asks them how many of you read about
2:54:47the varsity blues or the college
2:54:48admissions scandal cases
2:54:51and
2:54:5287 of the 92 jurors
2:54:54i'm not making the numbers up raised
2:54:56their hands
2:54:58and she said do you have anything any
2:54:59follow-up i said yeah i want to know
2:55:01what they read
2:55:02go ahead ask
2:55:04we're finishing today though this race
2:55:06to finish so my first question was
2:55:09please tell me what you read
2:55:11all right well i read that like the
2:55:13woman from full house brought but i said
2:55:15okay
2:55:17given that
2:55:19my client was charged with essentially
2:55:21the same thing
2:55:23is it is isn't it fair to say that he's
2:55:26probably starting off a little bit
2:55:28behind you think he probably did
2:55:30something
2:55:32right after telling the judge they could
2:55:34be fair and impartial
2:55:36she would turn it over to me and i would
2:55:37say don't you think they could tell me
2:55:39what you read how did it make you feel
2:55:42and i the very first perspective juror
2:55:44said it made me feel like they're all a
2:55:45pack of criminals
2:55:47who bribes their way in and she told me
2:55:49the story about how she tried out for
2:55:50her college
2:55:52volleyball team and she said i had to
2:55:54work my ass off to get there and i said
2:55:56isn't it fair then to say this might not
2:55:58be the case for you
2:55:59she said you know now that you put it
2:56:01like that
2:56:02i'm not quite sure
2:56:04that i could be fair
2:56:06this happened nine times in a row the
2:56:08judge was pissed at me
2:56:10i didn't care because i'm showing that
2:56:14if you ask someone can you be fair and
2:56:16impartial 99 times out of 100 in a room
2:56:19full of strangers they'll say yes
2:56:21okay no one wants to view themselves
2:56:23it's unfair especially in a room full of
2:56:25strangers they don't want to be viewed
2:56:27by others as unfair this is i'm giving
2:56:29you one little piece of the criminal and
2:56:32i was like hailed in the legal community
2:56:34as some sort of hero for getting
2:56:36individual jury selection
2:56:38the guy got acquitted
2:56:41and
2:56:42it was the only varsity blues case where
2:56:44there was an acquittal i give roy black
2:56:45the credit for getting him acquitted all
2:56:47i did was my job i just helped get
2:56:50a jury that was the fairest possible
2:56:52but give give that some thought as a
2:56:55closing thought you are charged with a
2:56:57crime in federal court in this country
2:57:02999 times out of a thousand
2:57:05that jury will be picked in one day and
2:57:08the lawyers won't get to ask a single
2:57:10question why
2:57:12because federal judges just said you
2:57:14know what it's the way we're going to do
2:57:16it
2:57:17there's no law
2:57:18there's no statute that says that right
2:57:20and and a lot of lawyers
2:57:22don't want to stand up to the judge and
2:57:24say you're violating my client's
2:57:27right to a sixth amendment right to a
2:57:29fair and impartial jury
2:57:32part of a fair trial subsumed within
2:57:34that right how do you get a fair trial
2:57:38if we don't know whether the jurors are
2:57:39fair
2:57:40if you don't know what their occupation
2:57:42is if you don't know what their spouse's
2:57:44occupation all these things that inform
2:57:46decision making so i think it's also
2:57:48incumbent on lawyers to be able to not
2:57:50worry about pissing off judges so much
2:57:53and be more interested in protecting
2:57:54your clients rights and standing up for
2:57:57their rights
2:57:58the conviction rate should not be 99 in
2:58:01federal court
2:58:02if we really have the presumption of
2:58:04innocence i didn't make that number up
2:58:05that's the conviction rate in federal
2:58:07court
2:58:08if you go to trump's like russia yeah
2:58:10isn't that wild because that's one of
2:58:12the things they said about brittany
2:58:13greiner you know they were saying like
2:58:15well you know it's really bad because 99
2:58:17percent of the people that get convicted
2:58:19or that get uh accused become convicted
2:58:21like oh what a bad court system they
2:58:23have over in russia
2:58:25if that's exact same 98 99 in most
2:58:28federal jurisdictions
2:58:30yup it is because we we don't really
2:58:32presume people innocent we assume
2:58:34they're guilty
2:58:35um
2:58:36so let's wrap this up derek you are an
2:58:39admirable and inspirational person and i
2:58:41really appreciate you being here and i
2:58:42really appreciate your story and i think
2:58:45it means a lot to people i think
2:58:47what you've done is incredible and
2:58:49what the impact just the millions of
2:58:51people that are going to listen to us
2:58:52talk here it's uh it's going to have a
2:58:54profound impact on people
2:58:57and and people like you really do make a
2:58:59difference really really do make a
2:59:01difference and josh you you're you're
2:59:02the [ __ ] man
2:59:04i love you to death yeah i love you back
2:59:06and i i'll second that emotion i'm
2:59:08inspired by you every day brother i'm
2:59:10i'm excited for the journey that lies
2:59:12ahead
2:59:13free bruce bryant signed the petition
2:59:15yes and um you know anything you could
2:59:18do to support these cases it does make a
2:59:20difference tell people where to go in
2:59:21terms of like uh where they can
2:59:22contribute what is a a good place to
2:59:25start is it innocenceproject.org is that
2:59:27the website no i'm not here on behalf of
2:59:29the innocence project yeah i think that
2:59:32what what what really needs because i'm
2:59:35branching out on my own i think that um
2:59:38if you contact me on instagram duben.js
2:59:42we we can give you
2:59:45the details on our criminal justice
2:59:47reform organization
2:59:49but a great place to start would be the
2:59:51midwest innocence project
2:59:54the midwest innocence project the
2:59:56executive director is someone by the
2:59:57name of trisha bushnell she does
2:59:59remarkable work that's a great place to
3:00:02start do you have anyone any to direct
3:00:05people to i would say uh family and
3:00:07friends of the wrong the convicted
3:00:09not for private organization as well
3:00:12and uh we're gonna announce something in
3:00:14the months to come man we want y'all to
3:00:15know that uh you're me doing some good
3:00:17work and i want to thank you for having
3:00:18us man i'm really uh inspired by the
3:00:20work that you do and josh of course i
3:00:22want to thank you for giving me this
3:00:23opportunity man to do what i love to do
3:00:25man well when you guys can announce
3:00:27please come back we'll do this again i
3:00:28love it and we're committed to doing
3:00:30this on a regular basis you and i i love
3:00:32it man i i can't thank you enough i
3:00:33can't thank you enough either thank you
3:00:35thank you everybody all right bye
3:00:37everybody
3:00:43[Music]
3:00:43[Applause]
3:00:47[Music]

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