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Joe Rogan and Ben Shapiro on the Current State of Race in America — Transcript

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0:00the jurgen experience well
0:03this is where we get into sort of the
0:04deep philosophy point and this is this
0:06is actually really
0:07the the the biggest problem right now on
0:08the racism point is the shifting
0:10definition of racism
0:11so i had the unfortunate experience of
0:13actually reading one of the best-selling
0:14books in the country robin deangelo's
0:15white fragility
0:16and let me just tell you a greater pile
0:18of horseshit has never been produced by
0:20a bevy of horses
0:21it is an awful book and it is basically
0:23rooted in the same theory as ibrahim
0:25kendy's how to be an anti-racist
0:26the the basic definition of racism
0:28changes in this theory
0:30so racism you and i were sitting here
0:31discussing racism and the way
0:33i define racism is probably the same way
0:34you define racism you believe in the
0:36inferiority or superiority of a group
0:38based on race of an individual based on
0:40their membership in that group too right
0:41that would be racism
0:42i believe that you're inferior or you're
0:44superior based on your race end of story
0:46right that's that's racist
0:47so robin d'angelo and ibrahim kendi
0:49redefine racism to mean
0:51any societal structure that results
0:54in a racial inequality is itself racist
0:57so any structure
0:58that results in a not exact proportion
1:01between whites and blacks does that make
1:03the nba races
1:04exactly exactly the answer is kind of
1:06yes except
1:07that the nba is not racist because
1:09obviously it benefits black people right
1:10i mean
1:10now the nba is not racist in except it's
1:13because the meritocracy is the reason
1:14the nba is not racist
1:15but robin d'angelo and kendy both
1:18suggest that meritocracy is an aspect of
1:20whiteness
1:21they say that meritocracy and individual
1:23are aspects of whiteness because
1:24these institutions things like
1:26meritocracy and individualism
1:28and not seeing people's colors these
1:30just reinforce hierarchies that end
1:32with disparate outcomes and so what they
1:34say is in order to be anti-racist
1:36you have to want to tear down the entire
1:38system they literally say this i'm not
1:40i'm not really i know that i'm not
1:42misidentifying the argument because
1:44again i've read their books
1:45the the basic notion that to be
1:48anti-racist
1:48you have to tear down free markets or
1:50you have to tear down free speech
1:52or you have to and what that means is of
1:54course that any time there's writing and
1:56looting that's really just an expression
1:57of outrage at the broader american
1:59system
1:59and so it justifies that sort of stuff
2:00this is why you saw nicole hannah jones
2:02the de facto editor of the
2:03new york times 1619 project lady
2:05tweeting out that she appreciated the
2:07people were calling these the 16 19
2:08riots
2:09because once you say america is rooted
2:11in slavery and rooted in evil in a
2:13terrible horrible no good very bad place
2:15then robbing a shop is just the latest
2:17iteration of you fighting the system
2:19explain the 1619 correlation to people
2:21if you would sure so the 1619 project is
2:23is something put forward by the new york
2:24times
2:25it's not good history there are four
2:26pulitzer prize-winning historians who
2:28said this is not good history the basic
2:29argument is the united states was not
2:30founded in 1776 with the principles of
2:32the declaration of independence
2:34the count the country was actually
2:36founded in 1619 with the importation
2:38of african slaves to american shores
2:40because that's when the first african
2:41slave arrived in the united states was
2:4216 19.
2:43so the idea is that the entire history
2:45of america
2:46is a history of a system that is
2:49endemically white supremacist
2:50and that all of the declaration of
2:52independence is basically a lie that the
2:54principles of all men are created equal
2:55that was a lie when it was written and
2:57it's a lie now
2:57that the idea that we have rights that
2:59pre-exist government that's a lie
3:01all of these things are lies the
3:02constitution was built in order to
3:04enshrine white supremacy
3:05and no evolution has taken place so they
3:07they essentially make the argument
3:08that from 1619 to 2020 is a continuum
3:12racism has gone underground a little bit
3:14but it's still there and it's still
3:15it's still implicit in all of our
3:17systems so the 1619 project has essays
3:19blaming
3:19literally everything on racism so
3:21disparities in maternal mortality
3:23between black women and white women
3:24which by the way exist in europe and in
3:25canada
3:26that's due to american racism traffic
3:28patterns in the united states
3:29is due to systematic american racism
3:32every racial disparity
3:33is attributable to a system that was
3:36rooted in slavery
3:37now the traditional notion of america is
3:39that america was founded in 1776
3:41and that the story of america is that
3:43america did tolerate
3:45the great original sin of slavery up
3:47until the civil war and then tolerated
3:48jim crow
3:49up until the civil rights movement of
3:51the 1960s and that is a great stain and
3:53a blood on america but the story of
3:54america
3:55is trying to fulfill the promises of the
3:57declaration of independence over time
3:59make those promises available to
4:00everybody
4:00and this isn't my argument this is
4:02martin luther king jr's argument when he
4:03talks on in the march in washington
4:05about fulfilling the promissory note of
4:06the declaration of independence he says
4:08we're here to cash the check right you
4:09issued us the check and then you didn't
4:11let black americans be americans
4:12we're here to catch the check is the
4:14argument frederick douglass the freed
4:15slave makes in 1852
4:16makes a famous speech before slavery is
4:18ended and he says july 4th doesn't mean
4:20anything to black americans
4:21because we're not included in the
4:22bargain include us in the bargain
4:24the story of america is the declaration
4:26of independence those principles
4:28that we should all basically still agree
4:29on because they're pretty good
4:30principles free speech
4:32free assembly all the things you see in
4:33the constitution
4:35that those things brought about greater
4:38freedom and prosperity than anything
4:39else and helped us overcome
4:41that sins that are present in all human
4:42societies and were present in the united
4:44states in extreme ways as well
4:45but that's that's the counter narrative
4:47right the 1619 project says
4:49that all that was basically nonsense and
4:51that america is just a history of
4:53whites keeping blacks down and that no
4:55progress has essentially been made if
4:56there is progress it's
4:57mostly a lie and so every disparity now
5:01can be attributed to historic
5:02disparities between white and black
5:04is there middle ground so
5:07if we look at 1776 and we look at the
5:10declaration of independence and we look
5:12at america today in 2020.
5:15there clearly is some impact
5:18in the echoes of slavery and then after
5:21that jim crow there's clearly
5:23some impact in these deeply impoverished
5:25communities that don't seem to advance
5:27yes so the to to to make the argument
5:29about institutional racism
5:31there's a couple ways you can read this
5:32when people say systemic racism or
5:33institutional racism
5:35i usually ask them to be a little more
5:36specific in what they mean because there
5:37are a few ways you can read that one
5:38is history has impact of course that's
5:41true right that's true for everybody
5:42it's true in your family history if you
5:44have a grandfather who
5:45went to who went to prison on a
5:47particular charge that leads to poverty
5:48for your parents which led to more
5:49poverty for you right
5:50people have histories those histories
5:52are embedded in their life experiences
5:53and that's true for societies as well
5:55all of that is for sure true
5:57then there's the question as to whether
5:58the institutions today are racist
6:00and that's not quite the same thing
6:02right because history has consequences
6:04is not the same thing as saying the
6:05rules today are racist
6:07because the rules today are not racist
6:09actually the rules today are quite not
6:10racist
6:11so but historically it's fairly recent
6:14if you go from the civil rights movement
6:16to 2020 we're really not talking about
6:18that much time it's about three
6:19generations
6:2050 plus years 60 years yeah i mean it's
6:2350 plus right
6:24in the world of you know in the best fan
6:26of human history
6:27it's not a very small amount of time
6:29right so clearly there's some
6:31impact of both racism and jim crow laws
6:34so that that's where i'm saying there's
6:36a middle ground yeah and
6:38it's indep it it is important for people
6:40on my side of the conservatives to
6:42acknowledge and recognize the importance
6:44of of history in people's living
6:46situations now
6:47and it's important for people on the
6:48other side of the aisle to at the same
6:49time not attribute every single thing
6:51to history because right but people who
6:53are believing something like that
6:55there's always like extremes on each
6:57position
6:58and the truth lies somewhere in the
6:59middle yeah but i don't think that it
7:01lies as far
7:02in in the dead center of that as people
7:04i think want it to
7:05what i mean by that is the problems that
7:07have plagued communities in the united
7:09states not just the black community in
7:10the united states but problems of racism
7:11or problems of sexism
7:12the way those get alleviated is people
7:14making better choices over time
7:16right that is the problem that's the way
7:17that those issues get alleviated when
7:18jews arrived in the united states in the
7:20in the early 20th century to talk of my
7:21people
7:22when they when they came they were
7:24impoverished they didn't speak the
7:25language
7:25they were banned from country clubs
7:26there was open discrimination against
7:28them they were banned from harvard right
7:29harvard law school had quotas on jews
7:32the the way to fight against that is to
7:35make
7:35good decisions and so the you fight
7:38against the system to make sure that the
7:39system has
7:40rules that apply equally to everyone
7:42right but you clearly
7:44see that there's a big difference
7:45between people coming over here
7:46willingly
7:47and doing so in order to better their
7:49lives versus someone
7:51whose ancestors were dragged over here
7:54to be sold as property
7:55and then dealing with the repercussions
7:58of that being your family history
8:00and redline laws and all the other
8:03things that were put in place to sort of
8:05keep them in very specific areas which
8:07to this day remain crime-ridden
8:10gang-ridden
8:12deeply impoverished communities well
8:14that's true but the question is how much
8:15of that is historic redlining and how
8:17much of that is an 18 year old kid today
8:18deciding to pick a gun and shoot
8:20somebody but how much of that 18 year
8:21old kid today
8:22deciding to pick up a gun and shoot some
8:24money is based on him
8:26growing up in this [ __ ] up environment
8:28where that's what he models where
8:30everything around him is crime
8:32and gangs and you imitate your
8:33atmosphere which what all humans do
8:35right but the answer is there's only one
8:36way to break that chain
8:38what way is that that way is to not pick
8:40up a gun and shoot somebody i think
8:41that's a simplistic
8:43way of looking at it if you're on the
8:44outside of that community and you're not
8:46one of those 18 year old kids that grows
8:48up
8:48with the incredible influence of all the
8:50people around him and that's all you see
8:52and that's all you know well but the
8:54problem is the only way that's going to
8:56be
8:56the thing that your kid doesn't know is
8:58for you not to do it at some point
8:59personal agency has to come in some
9:01it does because education and and
9:04teaching
9:05them about personal agency and and
9:08letting them understand that there's a
9:10way out of this and that the path that
9:11they see
9:12being replicated over and over again by
9:15these people that wind up dying young
9:16that wind up going to jail
9:17that there are other options there's a
9:19lot of kids that never get that other
9:21information or if they get it
9:23they get little blips of it but the vast
9:25majority of the information the vast
9:27majority of the influence they get is
9:29terrible well
9:30i totally agree with this and this is
9:31why i think the worst thing that you can
9:32say to a kid
9:33is you're born behind the eight ball and
9:34no matter what you do you're not going
9:36to succeed
9:36right that's literally the worst thing
9:37you can say to a kid what you should be
9:38saying is look at how your grandfather
9:41was born behind the eightfall and look
9:42how hard he had to work in order to get
9:44ahead
9:45and look at all the options that's true
9:46though but if your grandfather
9:48wasn't ahead didn't get ahead if your
9:51grandfather was in and out of jail
9:53if your father was in and out of jail
9:55everyone around you is like that if
9:57there's
9:57literally no influence that's positive
10:00in your life
10:01the idea of saying to a kid like that
10:03hey don't pick up a gun and shoot
10:05somebody
10:06it's way that's way too simplistic a
10:09version
10:09of of their future in my mind i mean the
10:12problem is i don't see an alternative
10:13solution
10:16i think an alternative solution is there
10:18has to be some sort of
10:20large-scale intervention in these
10:23communities to do
10:24something about what what what has
10:27already been set in motion and the
10:28momentum that keeps continuing decade
10:30after decade i don't know what could be
10:32done
10:33well but that's the problem is that i
10:34think that a lot of the solutions that
10:35have been proposed have already been
10:36tried meaning
10:37okay so for example lbj thought that the
10:40way to alleviate a lot of these
10:41inequalities was the war on poverty
10:43and he openly talked about this he
10:44talked about he gave a speech
10:46very famously in which he said we're
10:47trying to guarantee equality of
10:49outcome not just equality of opportunity
10:51equality of outcome and you can't
10:52hold the race where somebody is starting
10:5420 yards behind and then
10:56fire the gun and say okay that's an
10:57equal race right so you have to get the
10:59person who's 20 yards behind to actually
11:00get up to the starting lines that
11:02they're equal
11:02and so the idea was we're going to fight
11:04this war on poverty and alleviate
11:05poverty
11:06largely through transfer payments and
11:08and through the government taking
11:10a forcible step in favor of alleviating
11:12people's lives we've now spent 22
11:14trillion dollars in the war on poverty
11:15and we have about the same number of
11:17black americans living under the poverty
11:18line as we're living under the poverty
11:19line
11:20by the late 70s the the the real
11:23issues that that are entered that are
11:25creating intergenerational poverty
11:27everyone knows this but
11:28remains true the number one predictor of
11:29intergenerational poverty in the united
11:31states remains single motherhood
11:32the single motherhood rate in the black
11:33community was 20 in 1960 it is upward of
11:3670
11:36today that's not unique to the black
11:38community by the way it's true in the
11:39white community as well the 5
11:41of white kids were born out of wedlock
11:42in 1960 today it's upward of 40
11:45that is not something has happened and
11:47it is not
11:48a matter of increased racism that's not
11:50happening because of increased racism
11:52right that is happening because there's
11:55been a
11:56cultural change that does not place
11:58tremendous emphasis for black or white
12:00or for anybody
12:01on personal responsibility and personal
12:02agency there needs to be a mindset
12:04change we do this by the way in
12:05all other areas of american life except
12:07for the most important decisions in the
12:09area of sports nobody does this routine
12:11and there's a point shelby steel makes
12:12in the area of sports if a kid
12:14is not does not have a good jump shot
12:15nobody says tim you know what you don't
12:17have a good jump shot because your
12:17father didn't have a good jump shot his
12:19grandfather didn't have a good jump shot
12:20and the game is
12:21biased against you we say okay if you
12:22want to be on the team you're going to
12:24have to learn to shoot a jump shot
12:25right that that sounds harsh that sounds
12:27bad but sports are different
12:29and here's why sports are different
12:30because sports you enter them
12:32independently of your culture
12:33you you you base what you're trying to
12:36do
12:37on the parameters of the rules and the
12:39people that you're competing against
12:40that's how you look at it so you
12:42whatever culture you're from
12:43you you walk into this new thing
12:46with this very rigid set of rules
12:50i don't think white or asians have a
12:51monopoly on valuing education or a
12:53monopoly on hard work or punctuality or
12:55anything i think that black people
12:56have exactly the the same capacity as
13:00any
13:00people of any other race to do all of
13:02these things and those are the
13:02preconditions for success you either
13:04meet them or you don't i mean
13:05that's true for everybody but don't for
13:06success but don't you think that a lot
13:09of that is predicated on
13:10the environment that you develop in and
13:13the people that you're around and
13:15the lives that you imitate and the
13:17influences that you have around you
13:19someone has to do something to influence
13:21those kids in a different way
13:22look i was very fortunate when i was
13:24young that i discovered martial arts and
13:26it
13:27kept me from being what i could have
13:29potentially been
13:30a bad kid like it gave me
13:34something to focus on there's and i
13:36didn't grow up in a bad environment
13:38but it wasn't the best there's a lot of
13:40people out there that grow up in
13:41horrific environments and they never
13:43have
13:44that thing they never have something
13:45they they don't have a father around
13:48or they don't have a mother around or
13:49whatever whatever bad influences they
13:52have
13:52are overwhelming and they they don't
13:55it's it's very difficult for someone to
13:59just air quotes get their [ __ ] together
14:01it's very difficult
14:02for sure that's why to this day there's
14:04so many books
14:05about losing weight don't you think
14:07everybody wants to lose weight that's
14:08fat they do
14:09they everybody who's fat wants to be
14:11thin they do but it's [ __ ] hard for
14:14sure and that's
14:15nothing in comparison to changing your
14:17whole life but but you would say about
14:18somebody losing weight you know what's
14:19not useful here is lamenting
14:21how bad your family has had it with
14:22regard to losing weight like at a
14:24certain point if you want to lose the
14:25weight you got to figure out a way to
14:26lose the weight
14:27that's true this is based on the
14:28information that i have i have this
14:30vast scope of information that i've been
14:33able to
14:33absorb if you're in these isolated
14:36environments and everyone around you
14:38is involved in gangs and crime and drugs
14:41it's
14:41very difficult to model yourself after
14:44something that you don't see in real
14:45life
14:46so totally true totally true and that's
14:48why again more information needs to get
14:50into areas
14:51i agree with a lot of the opportunities
14:53that need to be provided by
14:54education getting people to be educated
14:56outside their local public school would
14:57be a good change
14:58being able to like move outside your
14:59crap local public schools and go
15:01somewhere else would be good
15:02the best influences for kids that grow
15:04up in these environments seem to be
15:06people that have gotten out and then
15:08come back and talk to them
15:10right and tell them how to do it but
15:11none of this can be done but to go back
15:13to the original conversation none of
15:14this has to do
15:15with telling kids that you live in an
15:17evil country that's seeking to keep you
15:18down
15:18well maybe not but there there has been
15:22a very small amount of emphasis placed
15:25on
15:26taking these impoverished communities
15:27and figure out how to engineer them out
15:29of the situation
15:31that's true so i don't think that's true
15:32yeah i mean the amount that we've spent
15:34on a federal level and a state level
15:36on educational programs and poverty
15:38programs over time
15:40but no one on a year-to-year level i
15:42mean these are these are enormous
15:43quantities of money this is not a mon
15:44this is not really a money problem it
15:47really is not a money problem in just
15:48terms of
15:49you could sign everybody a check
15:50tomorrow right the predicate so the
15:52predicate for the
15:52slavery reparations movement is exactly
15:54this sign everybody a
15:5580 000 check and the problem will be
15:58alleviated
15:58no it won't i don't think that's i don't
16:00think i think they'll spend 80 000
16:02and they'll be right back where they
16:03started from but i do think that there
16:04is
16:05an argument that there can be some way
16:08of engineering whether it's community
16:10centers or education or doing something
16:12differently
16:13in these places to chip away at this
16:15problem
16:16so on that stuff we totally agree the
16:19only point that i'm making about the
16:201619 project is when you teach people
16:22that they are the victims of a society
16:25it makes it very difficult for them to
16:27succeed the story of black america
16:29should be a story
16:31of unbelievably brave people triumphing
16:33over systems that sucked
16:35right i mean that that is the story of
16:36black america most black americans do
16:38not live under the poverty line in the
16:39united states
16:40there's a huge black middle class
16:41there's a black upper class yes there is
16:43let's simplify this if we can sure if
16:45ben shapiro is the king of the world
16:47how do you fix baltimore how do you fix
16:50detroit how do you fix
16:52the south side of chicago okay so here's
16:54the unpopular view but it happens to be
16:56empirically correct the first thing you
16:58have to do is you have to load the place
17:00with police
17:01you got to load the place with police
17:02because you have to stop crime once you
17:04stop crime
17:04then businesses are happy to invest in
17:06those areas you're not going to get
17:07businesses to invest in those areas and
17:08provide jobs unless the crime is gone
17:10you need in fact one of the reasons that
17:12you have such a vast differential in
17:13racial crime in the united states is
17:15because of white racism
17:16and there's a point that jane levy
17:17writer for the la times has made and she
17:19write a book called ghetto side and she
17:20points out
17:21that the reason that black crime was so
17:23high in the early 20th century and late
17:2419th century
17:25is because basically white communities
17:27said to black communities you're on your
17:28own
17:28right enjoy and so the prime rates ended
17:31up spiking because there were no police
17:32there
17:33you have to make sure that law abiding
17:34people are protected that law abiding
17:36businesses are protected that people
17:37want to live there that people want to
17:39invest there
17:40you have to have a re-establishment of
17:42faith in churches right you need social
17:44institutions outside of government that
17:45are promoting
17:46things like family you need you need
17:49more
17:49one of the reasons you need more
17:50companies in these areas is they can
17:51offer educational opportunities to kids
17:54internships
17:55deals to go to college and then come
17:56back and work for us for a couple of
17:57years
17:58right you need an opportunity the same
17:59way that opportunity is built anywhere
18:00else on earth
18:01you need to provide a safe space for
18:04business to work and for free speech to
18:06flourish and for education to be valued
18:08you need to go in you need to
18:09make clear to every kid if you graduate
18:11high school then you will have a shot at
18:13college which by the way is
18:14100 true today if you're a black kid and
18:17you graduate
18:17high school with any level of
18:19achievement you will have a very solid
18:20shot of at least going to a community
18:22college and if you score per
18:23even decently on the sats of going to a
18:25very high level college right
18:26affirmative action programs are
18:27extraordinarily common
18:28across the united states but the the
18:30first message is
18:32we are going to ensure that law and
18:33order prevail here a safe space for life
18:35liberty and property
18:37and ownership of private property and we
18:39are going to make sure that you as a law
18:40abiding citizen have the opportunity
18:42to succeed because the biggest obstacle
18:43to young black kids growing up in the
18:45inner city again
18:45is not history it is in the moment the
18:48drugs the crime
18:49the fact that there are no fathers in a
18:51lot of these areas rolling fryer black
18:53professor at harvard he's done excellent
18:54work
18:55showing that actually the number one
18:56factor in allowing
18:58kids to to rise is not even having a
19:00father in the home it's how many fathers
19:01there are generally in a community
19:02so you can you can have a single mom but
19:04if there are a lot of other male
19:06father figures around that helps fill in
19:08the gap right these are practical things
19:10giving kids the ability to pick the
19:11school they go to so they don't have to
19:12go to the local crappy public school if
19:14it's a local crappy public school
19:16it would be a solution here but this all
19:18starts with the notion
19:19that it is not racist in the slightest
19:22to suggest that law and order have to
19:23prevail
19:24and that law-abiding people should be
19:26protected in their exercise of their
19:27rights i think you're 100
19:28right on that and i think although that
19:30might be an unpopular opinion i agree
19:32with you
19:38[Applause]
19:42you

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