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Jodi Arias Breaks Down During Cross [PT 15] | Court TV Archive — Transcript

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0:00man yesterday we were talking about the
0:02time that you took your luggage and you
0:06placed it in your car you remember we
0:08were talking about that yes and one of
0:10the things that you were telling me was
0:11was that you didn't remember what you
0:12had said on direct examination do you
0:14remember that I didn't remember the
0:16precise wording that's correct well no
0:18you didn't remember the time it was more
0:19than the precise wording wasn't it
0:22um I don't remember the exact time
0:23that's also correct and uh when I asked
0:26you if it was closer to five you you
0:28weren't able to tell me were you yes and
0:31in fact what the exchange was on direct
0:34examination was that you were asked
0:37so you say you're packing your luggage
0:40or you've packed your luggage in your
0:41car and you're getting ready to leave
0:43and the question was do you remember
0:45about what time of the day that this was
0:47when you're packing your car and getting
0:49ready to leave and you said I don't it
0:51was after that I think it was after two
0:54I'm sure so it was after two o'clock
0:58that
1:00you took everything and put it down at
1:02the car correct that makes sense when
1:05you say that makes sense although it
1:07makes sense I'm asking you if that's
1:08what happened what would have been after
1:10two because around before two we were
1:12having sex all right before two we were
1:15otherwise engaged
1:17but after two o'clock
1:20the way you're saying it is you're
1:21saying it could be six o'clock in the
1:23evening it was after two specifically it
1:26was around two o'clock when you actually
1:28put the luggage in the car right it was
1:31after two o'clock I don't know how close
1:32to two o'clock okay so it could have
1:34been between two and so you're telling
1:36us it was shortly after two o'clock
1:38based on that statement right I just
1:40know it would have been after we did
1:42what we were doing and was it shortly
1:45after you did what you were doing
1:50um well maybe maybe not I guess it's
1:52relative I just know that was after what
1:54we were doing I don't remember the exact
1:56time I just want to know how much time
1:58after you and he got done doing what you
2:01were doing you said two o'clock what
2:04time in terms of
2:06hour a minute how much time elapsed
2:10after that that you took your items down
2:12to the car I'm not sure
2:14and so when you say you're not sure you
2:18were a little bit more sure on direct
2:19examination weren't you
2:21um not on exact time no but you were
2:23more
2:24sure about the time you want me to read
2:27it back to you
2:28well the world
2:31um I was more wait you asked me two
2:32questions well answer the first one then
2:34you're ready to answer that I was more
2:36sure that I was sure that it happened
2:38after we were done having sex
2:41and you mentioned two o'clock didn't you
2:44oh that would have been after two
2:45o'clock yes
2:46so then you were asked so after your car
2:49is packed and ready to go you said you
2:50were dressed right
2:52maybe that's about that I was dressed
2:55yes unless we were engaging in other
2:56things I was always dressed and uh it
2:59was after you packed your car that you
3:02and he then went downstairs to the study
3:05right or the office however you want to
3:06call it
3:08um we did go downstairs after the
3:10bedroom stuff but I don't know about
3:12packing the stuff in the car
3:14well when did you pack your stuff then
3:16you seem to have a hard time telling us
3:18when you packed your stuff yes the
3:20precise moment I don't remember when I
3:21put it am I asking you for the precise
3:23moment man you said when right when
3:26means if I wanted the precise moment
3:28I'll ask you for the precise moment
3:31when in the sequence of events did you
3:34pack your stuff and put it in the car
3:37um as far as sequence of events the most
3:40precise I can tell you is after two
3:42o'clock and before leaving and
3:45you can't get any clearer than that it's
3:48not there like it's maybe it's somewhere
3:50there but I don't remember so again it's
3:53it's an issue with your memory as to
3:55when it was that you actually put the
3:56stuff in the car correct that's correct
3:58and when you put the items in the car
4:01um did you do it alone or did Mr
4:03Alexander help you I did it alone uh do
4:06you remember telling us that perhaps Mr
4:07Alexander helped you yes it's
4:09possibility to help me with it
4:10downstairs but usually he'd let me get
4:13my own luggage so it usually means that
4:15you're telling us that you don't
4:16remember whether or not he helped you on
4:19this occasion right I'm I don't know I'm
4:21pretty sure that he helped me bring it
4:23downstairs but
4:25I don't remember him walking me out to
4:27the car to put my own Luggage in
4:29so you went outside and you put it in
4:30your car right your car was parked out
4:33front in the driveway correct it was
4:35parked in the driveway yes and
4:37would it be fair to say that if your car
4:40didn't have a license plate affixed to
4:43the back that it would
4:45make it more difficult for people to
4:47know who was driving that car
4:50um if that were true I guess so that
4:52would be that would be the case though
4:54right
4:55if there were no license plate that
4:57would be true and we know that you
5:00hadn't put back at least the front
5:02license plate you hadn't put that back
5:04correct that's correct I drove from
5:06Pasadena to Mesa with it in the
5:08floorboard so the answer is that's
5:10correct it was still in the car correct
5:12yes and so you're you're inside and
5:15you're in the study and you're looking
5:18at some CDs or something correct correct
5:21how long does that take in terms of time
5:24that one took a while because it took
5:25him some time to bring up some of the
5:27images or find the disk drive on his
5:30computer I don't remember the exact time
5:31but it seemed to take forever so how
5:33long is a while to you
5:36um
5:37I don't know it just seemed like it
5:40dragged and dragged well he went looking
5:42for the disk drive and I was just laying
5:44on the floor with Napoleon are we
5:45talking hours what are we talking about
5:47here I wouldn't say hours it just felt
5:49like a lot longer than it should take to
5:50pop a CD into the computer and bring up
5:53some photographs that are on the CD so
5:55it was just one CD that was popped into
5:57the computer right there were two CDs
5:59and there was this issue involving the
6:01two CDs and then you and he had some
6:04sort of intimacy after that correct yes
6:06and the intimacy that you had after that
6:08it was not a situation that it was
6:10unwanted by you correct that's correct
6:13it was something that you participated
6:14in willingly correct yes and then after
6:18that at some point Mr Alexander goes to
6:22take a shower correct
6:25um yes
6:26what did he do after the intimacy was
6:29done did he go anywhere did he do
6:31anything before he went up to the shower
6:32I'm not sure what he did because I left
6:35the room to go to the bathroom across
6:37the hallway
6:38and so you went to the bathroom across
6:40the hallway and after using that
6:41bathroom you came back out right yes and
6:44when you came back out was Mr Alexander
6:46in the office yes and how long was he in
6:50the office before the two of you went
6:52somewhere else
6:54uh a few minutes we went upstairs and
6:57you went upstairs to do what
6:58to take photographs and so you're
7:01telling us that he was the he agreed
7:03with you to take photographs right yes
7:06do you remember that you had a
7:07conversation with this detective and
7:09that you told a different story no well
7:11that's what's in there
7:17503 is admitted
7:21afternoon I just you know he had been
7:24cleaning his house
7:31so I couldn't I wasn't sitting on the
7:33couch usually I would just chill on the
7:34couch downstairs you know if no one was
7:37home
7:39but he had like chairs and all that
7:41stuff all over the couch like he was
7:42cleaning the floors or something
7:44uh
7:46fan Napoleon
7:47I don't know if he made phone calls or
7:49not or what he was doing on the internet
7:51but but hopefully I was gonna go up and
7:52take a shower and it took a lot of
7:54convincing prior when he was shaming I
7:57was like I got some ideas and they
7:59didn't turn out good at all not like I
8:00wanted to
8:01um but I thought that I could get some
8:03cool pictures of him shaving
8:06does the whole old-fashioned thing with
8:07like this little I don't know
8:09how it works
8:11um he liked it though apparently because
8:13he used it for his profile picture on
8:15MySpace
8:17um
8:18so those in Drums goes I'm gonna do that
8:21again later but I said I asked him I
8:23could do pictures in the shower and he's
8:24like
8:25no
8:27I was like I just have an idea I have a
8:30couple ideas and he's like what do you
8:31mean and I was like I said I have this I
8:34I saw this thing in a Calvin Klein at
8:36once that looked really good and so he
8:39was you're right he wasn't very
8:40comfortable at first he she comes he's
8:43standing there and he's all I feel gay
8:46and so it took a lot of convincing for
8:48you to get him to take those photographs
8:50right yes I was talking about a prior
8:52incident man
8:54it does indicate that it took a lot of
8:56convincing for him for you to take those
8:59photographs of him correct yes but not
9:01on June 4th
9:02ma'am the photographs that I was asking
9:04you about in the shower were the ones
9:07involving or that you were asked about
9:09on direct examination involved him
9:12taking a shower on June 4th do you
9:13remember that yes that's the same thing
9:16that we're talking about here on June
9:184th isn't it no that's the distinction
9:20we had discussed the shower photos long
9:22before this so you're saying that when
9:23you told that to the detective you're
9:25talking about something totally
9:26different other than June 4th a
9:28conversation that occurred before June
9:304th well I'm asking you if the the
9:32conversation that you're having there
9:34with a detective is that in reference to
9:37the June 4th 2008 photographs yes or no
9:40yes in an indirect way it obviously is
9:42because the photos exist because he
9:44agreed yes or no I said yes so it does
9:47refer to the photographs on June 4th
9:502008 then right yes but not the
9:52conversation ma'am my question is after
9:54that it does say that it took a lot of
9:57convincing to get him to get have those
10:00photographs right yes or no that's
10:01correct and it also indicates that at
10:04the time he was shaving right no it
10:07doesn't indicate that he was shaving
10:09before he uh took the photographs
10:12um no that was another instance look at
10:15what it says again all right
10:20afternoon I just you know he had been
10:23cleaning his house
10:29so I couldn't I wasn't sitting on the
10:31couch usually I would just chill on the
10:33couch downstairs you know if no one was
10:35home
10:37um
10:37but he had like chairs and all that
10:39stuff all over the couch
10:41it was cleaning the floors or something
10:42uh
10:44to Napoleon I don't know if he made
10:47phone calls or not or what he was doing
10:49on the internet but hopefully he was
10:51gonna go up and take a shower and it
10:52took a lot of convincing prior when he
10:54was shaving I was like I got some ideas
10:57and they didn't turn out good at all not
10:58like I want to
11:00um but I thought that I could get some
11:02cool pictures of him shaving it's
11:04because he does the whole old-fashioned
11:06thing with like this little I don't know
11:08how it works um
11:10he liked it though apparently because he
11:12used it for his profile picture on
11:13MySpace
11:14[Music]
11:15um
11:17so those internals goes I'm gonna do
11:19that again later but I sent I asked if I
11:22could do pictures in the shower and he's
11:23like
11:24no
11:26I was like I just have an idea I have a
11:28couple ideas and he's like what do you
11:30mean and I was like I said I have this I
11:33I saw this thing in a Calvin Klein at
11:35once that looked really good and so he
11:37was you're right he wasn't very
11:39comfortable at first
11:40it was he's standing there and he saw I
11:42feel gay
11:44and man you heard
11:47the conversation in which you said that
11:50it took convincing correct yes and you
11:53indicated that he was shaving prior to
11:56these photographs being taken right yes
11:59months prior man did you hear on that
12:03tape that it said he was shaving right
12:06yes and ma'am one of the things that we
12:08know from what you told us previously
12:11was that do you remember the situation
12:13of you being tied up to the bed with
12:15this
12:15this rope do you remember telling us
12:18that yes and do you remember that you
12:20told us that he was engaging in
12:22performing oral sex on you do you
12:24remember that yes and do you remember
12:26that you said it was stopped because it
12:28was uncomfortable do you remember saying
12:30that yes and the reason that it was
12:32uncomfortable that you said was because
12:34he hadn't shaved that day do you
12:35remember that yes and so he hadn't
12:38shaved that day had he no he didn't say
12:41that he killed him he hadn't shaved yet
12:42right I don't think he shaved it all
12:44that day you don't think well then let's
12:46take a look at exhibit 159.
12:50all right take a look at the exhibit 159
12:53that's behind you
12:55see that yes looks like he's shared
12:57doesn't it it appears that way yeah yeah
12:59and it looks like he's recently shaved
13:01doesn't it it does look like and you
13:02were talking to detective florist about
13:04him shaving prior to the photographs
13:06being taken weren't you yes but not this
13:08day man
13:11you did indicate in this excerpt of your
13:15conversation with the detective
13:18that it involved that there was this
13:20shaving before these photographs were
13:24taken do you remember talking about it
13:26on the excerpt
13:31um the Shaving photo shoot yes
13:35do you want me to play it for you again
13:37so you can hear what you say about the
13:38Shaving previously no thanks I know what
13:41I said well it appears that you're
13:42having trouble acknowledging what you
13:45said in it you talk about him having to
13:48be convinced correct
13:49yes and one of the things that you said
13:52was that you convinced him while he was
13:54shaving correct
13:56no that's not correct well let's listen
13:58to it again okay
14:04thank you
14:10afternoon I just you know he had been
14:13cleaning his house
14:15[Music]
14:19so I couldn't I wasn't sitting on the
14:21couch usually I would just chill on the
14:23couch downstairs you know if no one was
14:25home
14:27but he had like chairs and all that
14:29stuff all over the couch
14:31foreign
14:33[Music]
14:34Napoleon I don't know if he made phone
14:37calls or not or what he was doing on the
14:39internet but hopefully he was gonna go
14:41up and take a shower and it took a lot
14:42of convincing prior when he was shaving
14:45did you hear that it took a lot of
14:48convincing prior when he was shaving did
14:51you hear yourself say that yes but
14:53that's not what yes or no ma'am am I
14:54asking you to expand it I just ask you
14:57whether or not you heard that you said
15:01it took a lot of Competency prior when
15:03he was shaving that's what you said
15:05right yes and previous to that we have
15:09you on the bed when you're making or
15:11having this intimate moment where you
15:13complain that
15:15it's not comfortable to you because he
15:17hadn't shaved yet right yes so then we
15:20take a look at exhibit number 159
15:25and he is recently shaved correct it
15:28appears that way
15:30that's because he just shaved afterwards
15:33right
15:34after you I didn't see him shave that
15:36day pardon I didn't see him shave that
15:38day you did say though to this detective
15:41in that interview on July 16th of 2008
15:45that it took a lot of convincing while
15:47he was shaving you did say that right he
15:48said when
15:49not while and it was actually a run-on
15:51sentence because I was referring to
15:53another day so you're saying that you
15:54had a rattle on sentence that you did
15:56hear yourself saying that it took a lot
15:58of convincing when he was shaving then
15:59right
16:02um it sounds that way but when is the
16:04new sentence
16:05let's hear it again then okay so we can
16:07really understand what is said all right
16:11[Music]
16:12afternoon I just you know he had been
16:15cleaning his house
16:17[Music]
16:20foreign
16:20[Music]
16:24just chill on the couch downstairs you
16:27know if no one was home
16:29um
16:30but he got like chairs and all that
16:32stuff all over the couch
16:33like he was cleaning the floors or
16:34something uh
16:37fan Napoleon I don't know if he made
16:40phone calls or not or what he was doing
16:41on the internet but hopefully he was
16:43gonna go up and take a shower and it
16:44took a lot of convincing prior when he
16:47was shaving I was like I got some idea
16:50did you hear that that according to you
16:53he was going to go up and take a shower
16:56and it took a lot of convincing prior
16:58when he was shaving isn't that what you
17:00said yes or no that's all I'm asking but
17:01you stopped it before the sentence was
17:03over man isn't that what you said yes
17:06part of what I said isn't that what you
17:08said yes that's part of the sentence
17:10well then let's hear it that all right
17:14yeah no I just you know
17:23so I couldn't I wasn't sitting on the
17:25couch usually I would just chill on the
17:27couch downstairs you know if no one was
17:29home
17:30um but he had like chairs and all that
17:33stuff all over the couch
17:34cleaning the floor or something uh
17:38to Napoleon I don't know if he made
17:41phone calls or not or what he was doing
17:42on the internet but hopefully I was
17:44gonna go up and take a shower and it
17:46took a lot of convincing prior when he
17:48was shaming I was like I got some ideas
17:51and they didn't turn out good at all not
17:52like I wanted to
17:54um but I thought that I could get some
17:55cool pictures of him shaving
17:57it's because he does the whole
17:59old-fashioned thing with like this
18:00little I don't know
18:02what works um
18:04he liked it though apparently because he
18:06used it for his profile picture on
18:07MySpace
18:08[Music]
18:09um
18:11so those interviews goes I'm going to do
18:13that again later but I said I asked him
18:15I can take pictures in the shower and
18:17he's like no
18:20I was like I just have an idea I have a
18:22couple ideas and he's like what do you
18:24mean and I was like I said I have this I
18:26I saw this thing in a Calvin Klein at
18:28once that looked really good and so he
18:31was you're right he wasn't very
18:32comfortable at first he was he he's
18:35standing there and he's all I feel gay
18:37that's your whole statement right
18:39involving that issue and it part of that
18:42statement says he was going to go up and
18:44take a shower and it took a lot of
18:46convincing prior when he was shaving
18:47correct that's what it says yes or no
18:49yes part of it yes or no yes part of it
18:52yes or no yes part of it you keep saying
18:55part of it because you're not finishing
18:57the sentence maybe the transcriber put a
18:59period there but that's not the whole
19:00sentence
19:02you've heard it over and over again and
19:04we've heard it and that's what it says
19:05right those words were uttered by your
19:08mouth back on June July 16th of 2008 yes
19:11or no that's correct
19:13answer about half dozen times sustained
19:15now if you did it you were standing in
19:19there taking some pictures and how long
19:21were you standing there taking some
19:22pictures before something happened
19:25I don't know
19:27um you didn't have his camera right
19:29yes I was outstanding uh it was
19:34relatively new camera for you right
19:37um yes it's the first time you've ever
19:39seen it right
19:42um first time I ever saw it physically
19:44and held it I can't remember if I looked
19:45it up on the internet when we were
19:47shopping for it so the answer is yes
19:49that's the first time you've ever seen
19:50that specific camera correct
19:53then I recall yes well ma'am had you
19:56been to Mr Alexander's home between
19:59April when you left and June 4th of
20:012008.
20:04um no and it wasn't a true that it was
20:08during that time between April of 2008
20:11and June 4th of 2008 when you killed him
20:13then he bought the camera right yes so
20:18it's fair to say based on that that set
20:22of circumstances that you have never
20:24seen his camera before correct
20:26based on that solely that's correct well
20:29are you saying that you saw this camera
20:31his camera previous to that day yes and
20:34where did you see his camera if you
20:36haven't seen him before between April
20:38and 2000 between April when you left and
20:41June of 2008 when you saw him
20:45um he posted a picture of himself in the
20:47mirror taking a picture of his whole
20:48self in the bathroom on Facebook and his
20:51camera is clearly in the photograph so
20:53how about if we do it this way when was
20:56the first time you actually got the
20:58touch his camera was it on June 4th of
21:012008 yes and it's fair to say that you
21:05had never
21:07physically manipulated or worked with
21:11his camera prior to June 4th of 2008
21:14correct yes and June 4th of 2008 in
21:18terms of getting familiar with that
21:19camera that was the first opportunity
21:21that you had correct correct uh you did
21:25have an opportunity when you were taking
21:26pictures of him to at least see how it
21:29worked to take photographs right
21:31yes you were unsuccessful in working the
21:36camera to take a video correct
21:40correct and that was partly because you
21:42were unfamiliar with the camera right
21:44yes you hadn't read the instructions
21:46right I had not and so then with regard
21:50to that particular camera you start
21:51using it later on in the afternoon about
21:54what time do you start taking these
21:56photographs in the shower man
21:57[Music]
22:00the top of my head I
22:04[Music]
22:06don't tell you her time ma'am I'm not
22:07asking what's on here I'm asking what
22:09you remember what you are cognizant of
22:12if you don't have time in the afternoon
22:14do you know what time yes or no no and
22:17so but you with regard to this
22:20particular camera previously you have
22:22also told us that you have not deleted
22:24any photographs from that camera correct
22:28um
22:30previously I believe that's correct
22:33about the pictures of me I said ma'am
22:36I'm asking do you remember that we
22:38talked about this yesterday about the
22:40photographs that were taken of you and
22:41him on the back do you remember that yes
22:43and you remember that you told us that
22:45it was he who had actually actually
22:47deleted the photograph from the camera
22:49do you remember telling us that yeah
22:51[Music]
22:52you said they both did
22:54Earl do you mean answer
22:56I believe they were deleted but I don't
22:59remember
23:00how that happened I think it I think he
23:02deleted them after we took them you
23:05don't remember how it happens if you
23:06don't remember how this happens it's
23:07fair to say that you didn't do it right
23:12the same rephrase well
23:15you didn't delete the photographs did
23:17you the sex photographs did you I might
23:20have deleted them
23:22well I thought you said that just now
23:24that it was he meaning Mr Alexander that
23:27deleted the photographs I believe it was
23:29him but I can't be sure so it could have
23:30been me but I believe so again let's go
23:33with your belief if it is your belief
23:35that he's the person that deleted the
23:37photographs then that excludes you from
23:39deleting the photographs right based on
23:41that belief
23:45um only if you base it on the belief but
23:47that doesn't mean it's actually the
23:48reality man where everything that you
23:50tell us from the witness stand is your
23:52belief isn't it
23:53I'm just saying they got yes or no
23:55everything that you're telling us is
23:56what you believe right
23:58if we're going to use the word believe
23:59it's the truth to the best I'm not
24:02asking you if it's the truth am I asking
24:03if it's the truth
24:05yes I am asking you that I thought the
24:08word was believe isn't it true that I'm
24:10asking you what you believe and you told
24:13us that you believed it was Mr Alexander
24:16who deleted the photographs of you and
24:18he having sex
24:21what was the question the question is
24:23isn't it true man now you just told us
24:26that you believe it was Mr Alexander who
24:28deleted the photographs of you and he
24:30having sex on the bed
24:32I believe it was him yes but I'm not
24:34sure
24:35but you believe that right
24:38um it's likely but I'm not sure I
24:40believe it was probably him and if he's
24:43the one assuming that we adopt your
24:46belief if he's the one that deleted the
24:49photographs then up to that point when
24:52you're taking photographs of him in the
24:54shower
24:55you haven't deleted any photographs from
24:58his camera yet correct not necessarily
25:02no that's not correct well
25:06the only photographs that are on that
25:08camera that we're taking that day when
25:10you got there are the ones involving the
25:12sex
25:13you're aware of that right no that's not
25:15true well you took other photographs
25:17that day yes in the shower well we're
25:20not there are we I don't know you go all
25:22over the place well you keep trying to
25:24be critical but not answering the
25:26questions are you having problems
25:27following if you are let me know but we
25:30are we're talking about the deletion of
25:32photographs do you have any problem
25:34understanding that that's the topic
25:37um
25:38no and do you have any problem first of
25:41all understanding that you believe that
25:42it was Mr Alexander who deleted the
25:44sexual photograph
25:46you told us that you believed that
25:48[Music]
25:53um he usually deleted those yeah no I'm
25:56not asking you what he did isn't it true
25:58that you just told us that oh yeah I did
26:00say that and based on that the next time
26:04that his camera was used was when you
26:06were taking photographs of him in the
26:08shower right
26:11um that's correct and if it's that's the
26:13next time that you are using the
26:16photographer that the two of you are
26:17using the photograph the camera then
26:20before that time when you are taking
26:23photographs of him in the shower you
26:26based on your belief have never deleted
26:28any items from his camera right no you
26:32think that you deleted something else
26:34even though there were no other
26:35photographs taken I believe it's
26:37possible and I can't see it definitively
26:40there were only two instances
26:43of voluntary photograph taking with this
26:46camera that day correct correct there
26:49was the one involving the sex right
26:52yes there was one of him in the shower
26:55right yes there were the involuntary
26:58photographs right
26:59yes
27:01and you've just told us that between the
27:05sex pictures and the shower pictures you
27:08did not you believe you did not delete
27:11any photographs from this camera correct
27:14I'm not entirely sure but you said
27:17that's what you believe do you remember
27:18just telling that just minutes ago yes I
27:21believe that but that doesn't mean it's
27:22concrete I may have deleted it man I'm
27:24just asking you whether or not you told
27:25us that that's what you believe that's
27:27all I'm asking you in other words did
27:29you just tell us minutes ago that that's
27:31what you believed yes or no
27:35world man
27:38um yes I think I said that so if that's
27:41the truth and we're going on your belief
27:43when he was in the shower you began to
27:46snap photographs of him correct
27:49yes and you wanted to get the Calvin
27:52Klein look right
27:54yes and before
27:57this time that you were taking
28:00photographs of him in the shower you had
28:03not based on your belief ever deleted
28:06any images from that photograph from
28:09that camera correct no
28:12that's not correct that's not correct
28:14all right
28:16tell me when you deleted any images from
28:20that photograph between the
28:23time that he deleted the sex pictures
28:26and after he deleted the sex pictures
28:28and you began to take
28:30the photographs of him in the shower
28:32between that period of time when did you
28:35delete photographs from that camera
28:38I can't say definitively when
28:40or even if but I can't say whether
28:42Travis did either no no I'm going from
28:44the time that you from your belief just
28:47from your belief man
28:49immediately seconds after he's deleted
28:53those images according to your belief
28:55seconds after and to the time when you
28:57first start taking the photographs
28:59when when did you delete anything from
29:03that camera
29:07either of us could have deleted it I'm
29:09sorry I didn't hear you either of us
29:11could have deleted the picture I'm not
29:13asking that you keep avoiding the
29:15question ma'am the question is when give
29:18me the circumstances when you starting
29:21at the point that I just mentioned to
29:23the time of taking the photographs in
29:25the shower when did you do anything to
29:28delete photographs from his camera
29:34sometime after they were taken that's
29:36all I can say so sometime after what was
29:40taken the photographs that were deleted
29:43so you didn't delete the sex photographs
29:46now we have the photographs and that
29:48you're taking in the shower are you
29:49saying now that you've deleted some
29:52other photographs in between no I'm not
29:55saying that that's what I want so then
29:57you so you're not familiar with the
29:59camera in terms of how to delete
30:01photographs are you
30:03at what point because the point before
30:06you had deleted any photographs that's
30:08correct and so that if you needed to
30:10delete it do go through the process of
30:13deleting a photograph it would then be a
30:15first time for you wouldn't it yes
30:18and so you then tell us that
30:21you take this Photograph 160
30:30and that
30:31this is at 5 30 and 30 seconds and
30:34that's on June 4th 2008 right yes you
30:38were the person that was handling the
30:39camera when this Photograph was taken
30:40right yes the door was open right yes
30:43and Mr Alexander was seated there right
30:46yes
30:49and
30:51what you told us on direct examination
30:54is that that's also an inadvertent
30:56photograph correct it is what you're
30:58saying is that the camera was trolling
31:00and coming down at the time that this
31:02Photograph was taken right no
31:07over ultimate answer
31:09correct well what was the camera doing
31:11when this Photograph was taken
31:14I have no idea well you were there right
31:16we were looking at them so we must have
31:19moved it because I kept showing him and
31:21then moving it back and showing him
31:22moving it back and then we would delete
31:23the ones he didn't like do you remember
31:25on direct examination indicating that
31:27there was a fumble sort of movement with
31:30regard to this Photograph and that's why
31:32this is an also an inadvertent
31:34photograph
31:35not this photo this is this is the last
31:37in the sequence this is at 5 30 30
31:39before the other shot is the last of the
31:42sequence
31:44[Music]
31:50isn't this the last in the sequence
31:52before there is the other shot of the
31:54ceiling which is that exhibit number
31:56161.
32:00of the ceiling
32:02that's correct
32:05so
32:08are you saying now that this was not an
32:10inadvertent photograph no I'm not saying
32:13that so it is an inadvertent photograph
32:15right yes it is what were the
32:17circumstances
32:18that made this an inadvertent photograph
32:25the only way that would be an immigrant
32:27photograph is if my finger inadvertently
32:29hit the shutter release button is that
32:31what you did inadvertently hit the
32:33shutter
32:34obviously yes no there's nothing obvious
32:37about it ma'am it's a photograph it's in
32:39Focus isn't it yes and if we compare it
32:42to the other photograph
32:45161 this is not in focus is it no
32:50the previous 160 is though right
32:53yeah how can you tell us just by looking
32:55at this that this is an inadvertent
32:57photograph if it is well in focus
33:00and the subject is sitting there aimed
33:03at this individual why is it that you
33:05tell us that this is an accidental or
33:07inadvertent photograph
33:09because all of those photos were
33:10intended to be waist up shots
33:13so all the photos are intended to be
33:14wasted shots that doesn't tell us that
33:16this is an inadvertent photograph does
33:18it
33:18certainly not intentional so it is
33:20inadvertent you were holding the camera
33:23securely when this Photograph was taken
33:25correct
33:27um
33:28I don't know what you mean by securely I
33:30was just holding it to the best of my
33:31ability right and the same as you were
33:33with regard to the other photographs
33:35right yes yes you were holding it as
33:37securely with this Photograph as you
33:39were with the other photographs right
33:44and this Photograph then is taken when
33:47you applied pressure to the button that
33:49takes the photograph correct that's how
33:51it works
33:52and that's how it works for the other
33:54photographs too right yes and in this
33:56particular case this photograph is not
33:59out of focus so there's really nothing
34:00that tells us from the photograph itself
34:03that this was inadvertent right
34:07um from the photo itself yes it's
34:08inadvertent because I wouldn't take a
34:10picture of that you're but it's your
34:12word that you wouldn't take that
34:14shot right that's what you're saying and
34:16it's because it shows his buttock area
34:18that you say it's inadvertent right
34:20that's correct did he get mad when you
34:22took a picture of his buttocks no we
34:24just deleted it no I'm not asking you
34:26anything about deleting it I'm asking
34:29you whether or not he was angry at the
34:31time not at that point he wasn't angry
34:33was he angry at the time that you took
34:35this Photograph on June 4th 2008 at 5 30
34:38in 30 seconds man not at that point
34:41that's the point I'm asking you about
34:43I'm not asking you about any other time
34:45was he angry at that point yes or no no
34:48and so you then still had the camera in
34:50your hand and had not according to you
34:52dropped it right that's correct
34:58were you and he talking when the
35:00photographs were being taken
35:02yes
35:03and were you asking him how to pose
35:07um
35:09I don't recall asking him any specific
35:12poses just
35:14whatever wasn't this for you isn't this
35:16something that you that wanted it was
35:19for him that's why it was on his camera
35:20I thought
35:22the conversation that you had with this
35:24detective was that quote it took a lot
35:26of convincing whether it was then or
35:28another time if it takes a lot of
35:30convincing it means it's your idea not
35:32his right initially it was my idea so if
35:36so you're agreeing then that it was his
35:37your idea to have this photography
35:40session
35:41yes
35:44in exhibit 159
35:46he's now sitting down right
35:49yes and when he's sitting there it was
35:52you who was directing this Photograph
35:54because you like the way the water was
35:55coming on his face didn't you yes so you
35:57were the person that was directing him
36:00on where to be and how to set right yes
36:04I guess hard sitting so I just told him
36:06to look at the camera pardon I mean he
36:09was sitting and he was standing at one
36:10point ma'am he's standing through some
36:12of these photographs correct yes and
36:15then at some point toward the end he's
36:16sitting down right yes
36:18[Music]
36:19right before
36:21this attack happened he's sitting down
36:24right
36:26yes and you're the one that's directing
36:28The Taking of these photographs because
36:31you want to get the Calvin Klein look
36:33right
36:35well that was with the water so I didn't
36:37have to direct him the water did the
36:38work on that on the ma'am I'm not asking
36:41you about what the water is doing I'm
36:43not asking you about that I'm asking you
36:45about
36:46this man's physical positioning inside
36:49of that shower
36:50some of these photographs in the
36:52beginning he's standing isn't he
36:54let's take a look at one of
36:56[Music]
37:03them 141
37:07zip 141 he's standing there right yes
37:10and you're the one taking these
37:11photographs right yes then if we go to
37:14the exhibit that we've been talking
37:16about which is exhibit 159 he's now
37:19seated right yes you're the one that's
37:22telling me of what position to get in so
37:25you can get this Calvin Klein effect
37:27that you want right no that's not right
37:29well isn't this what this photographic
37:33session is about isn't that what you
37:34told us it was about
37:35the Calvin Klein yeah the Calvin Klein
37:38look right something to that effect
37:40that's what the um
37:43what we heard you say right yes
37:46so if you're the person that's taking
37:48the photographs you're also the person
37:51that's telling him stand this way stand
37:54that way or sit down aren't you
37:58it was Mutual
37:59I know no one's asking whether or not he
38:02consent it to sit down I'm asking who
38:05was directing him in these poses it was
38:08you wasn't it yes and him both of us
38:11well it was you who was behind the lens
38:14and it was you who wanted to get a
38:16certain look right yes with the water
38:18and it was all about this
38:20Calvin Klein thing that you wanted right
38:22yes I thought on direct examination you
38:25told us something about him wanting
38:27pictures because he was going to go to
38:29Cancun which one is it not because he
38:31was going to Cancun when his body was
38:34cut the way it was in this photo so
38:37which one is it the Calvin Klein
38:39um
38:40sort of uh Ambiance or is it he wants
38:43these pictures for Cancun pick one it's
38:46not for Cancun
38:48hey what didn't you indicate on direct
38:50examination that he was going to go to
38:52Cancun he was proud of his body and he
38:54wanted to pose for you because he wanted
38:56those sort of as a Memento how good he
38:59looked before he went to Cancun do you
39:00remember telling us that yes
39:02so which one is it it's both
39:06even though you told detective floors
39:08nothing about that right
39:10[Music]
39:12um about what
39:13is it that we're talking about
39:16we're talking about a few different
39:17things right now well the last one that
39:19we were talking about
39:21the
39:23the Cancun issue man you never told the
39:25detective about the Cancun issue did you
39:27what Cancun issue
39:30do you remember that we're talking about
39:31Travis Alexander let's start with that
39:33yes I remember that that's why we're
39:36here because you killed it right
39:38yes and with regard to Mr Alexander he
39:42was going to Cancun right
39:44yes and you testified about him going to
39:47Cancun on direct examination right yes
39:50and you told us that the purpose of
39:52these pictures
39:54was because he was proud of his body
39:57because he'd been working out do you
39:58remember telling us that yes that's
40:00correct and that he now when he went to
40:02Cancun would be able to wear whatever
40:04swimwear whatever it is that they wear
40:06out on the beach right yes and that he
40:10wanted to memorialize that
40:12through a picture so that he could keep
40:15it do you remember telling us that on
40:16direct examination
40:18um it wasn't worded that way but that's
40:20more or less correct sure and in fact
40:23though what you told the detective
40:26back on June 16th of 2008 is something
40:29entirely different about these
40:31photographs right just another aspect of
40:33the same thing pardon it was another
40:35aspect of the same thing
40:38well you do tell the detective that it
40:41takes a lot of convincing right yeah in
40:43January it did sure it took a lot of
40:45convincing if it takes a lot of
40:47convincing then why are you telling us
40:50that he really wanted the photographs on
40:53the one hand can you see that you're
40:55telling us he wanted the photographs and
40:58on the other hand you're telling us no
40:59he didn't want the photographs which one
41:01is it pick one objection compound
41:03question we're talking about two
41:05different incidents one in January one
41:06in June get your question ma'am with
41:09regard to this
41:10photography session on June 4th of 2008
41:14you've made two statements about it
41:17yes
41:19he did want the photographs taken or no
41:22he needed convincing
41:24either one just tell me either one
41:27well
41:28he did any convincing who we initially
41:30discussed it and on June 4th he was
41:32ready for it because his body was more
41:34toned
41:37so you're saying he wanted it on June
41:384th of 2008 that's what you're saying
41:40right
41:42yes and you did not say that to this
41:46detective back on July 16th of 2008
41:48right
41:50I didn't specify no you didn't say did
41:52you
41:54say what what are you talking about
41:57what is it that why is it that you have
42:00a hard time understanding these
42:02questions
42:03when they are in conflict with what
42:05you're telling us
42:06yeah sustained
42:11with regard to the detective you did not
42:13tell him that Mr
42:15Alexander wanted his picture taken in
42:18the shower correct that's correct let's
42:21take a look at exhibit 249.
42:26do you recognize what's here yes
42:33and this is a
42:36schematic diagram
42:39of Mr Alexander's bathroom correct
42:42that's correct it also includes the
42:45closet correct yes it also includes
42:50the bedroom right yes
42:55and the
42:57rope that we talked about was behind
42:59here
43:01behind the bed right
43:03that's right
43:13all right man these photographs that you
43:15were taking at some point
43:19take a look at exhibit number 161.
43:32and the time is 5 31 and 14 seconds
43:36that photograph is snapped correct
43:38correct and this is the door to the
43:42shower right yes this is the light above
43:45the shower right yes and Mr Alexander is
43:48seated down here isn't he yes and we saw
43:51a picture of him seated correct he
43:53hadn't moved from that position right
43:54yes
43:55yes you were standing right I was
43:57kneeling at that point
43:59and this right here is the door to the
44:02closet correct yes
44:06go back to
44:08exhibit number 249
44:13where were you when that photograph was
44:16snapped
44:17and I'm talking about
44:19so we can be specific if you want to
44:21look at it 161. where were you when this
44:24Photograph was snapped I was somewhere
44:28maybe slightly to the left of the Circle
44:31Number Four why don't you point to it
44:35[Music]
44:37it was somewhere in this area
44:40so you were immediately right in front
44:42of the shower right a few feet back so
44:46there was no water on the camera and uh
44:49Mr Alexander was
44:52still seated correct yes and the
44:57you said that you were kneeling right
44:59yes so that the distance between you
45:03and the floor was not that great right
45:06no that's correct and
45:11this Photograph here 160. the last one
45:14before that were you also kneeling on
45:17this one yes you were yes
45:21and this would show the distance between
45:23obviously the lens
45:26and the subject are you saying that
45:28that's two feet
45:29um it's not necessarily the distance
45:31because the lens had a zoom right so I'm
45:33asking you how far away you were were
45:35you I was a few feet not two maybe a
45:38little bit farther so the water didn't
45:39Splash on the camera you hadn't you
45:42hadn't moved from this position when you
45:43took this Photograph when the other
45:45photograph will snap right no that's not
45:47right we were looking at photos you what
45:49we were looking at the pictures
45:50reviewing them
45:51so when you took this photograph which
45:54is the one of him at 5 30 30 and then
45:57there was this other photograph of 161.
46:01were you in the same position I don't
46:03I'm not asking if there were any there
46:05was any deletion of photographs in
46:07between I'm just asking if you were in
46:09the same area when these two photographs
46:12were snapped that's all I'm asking
46:14I was in the same general spot but there
46:17was some adjusting
46:18all right and you pointed to that
46:21General spot for us correct yes and you
46:24said that that was a couple of feet away
46:26right yes and that was right around
46:28there right around there yes
46:30and so you you say you drop the camera
46:33right
46:35I did where did the camera go
46:39I dropped it when I was facing this way
46:40it landed on the mat right about here
46:42and sort of did a little double bounce
46:44onto the tile right there
46:46you said you dropped the camera right
46:49around here correct yes and the camera
46:51then came
46:52it rolled a little bit South then right
46:55yeah
46:56yes in this direction correct how far
46:59did the camera roll
47:02it was right sort of against it didn't
47:05touch but it was sort of against the
47:07bathtub
47:08so the bathtubs over here right this
47:10right here is the dividing wall between
47:13the shower and the bathtub you
47:15understand that or not yes so the camera
47:18then came this way right it was near it
47:21was right sort of up against the bathtub
47:23but not it didn't hit the porcelain part
47:25of the bathtub and there was a bath mat
47:28that was here wasn't there
47:31I don't recall a bath mat being there I
47:33just know the shower mat was there
47:35so there was a a shower mat there right
47:39outside of the shower that's the only
47:41mat that I can remember being there and
47:43the camera is then right about here
47:45right
47:47um in that vicinity
47:49right and what do you what happens when
47:53the camera comes to rest in this
47:54position what happens next
47:56Travis snapped when you say Travis snap
47:59he manifested something what did he do
48:01he got very angry he stood up stepped
48:05out of the shower
48:07all the while calling me and that's
48:09screaming at you bad stuff right cursing
48:11at you right I remember the f word I
48:14don't know how much cursing there was
48:15never been what you can say it you said
48:17it in text messages go ahead
48:21um he said [ __ ]
48:23he said [ __ ] what
48:25then I'm a [ __ ] idiot okay you said
48:27you were a [ __ ] idiot and he's
48:28standing up when he says this right
48:33um as he was standing up or whatever I
48:36don't know the exact position she was in
48:38when those words were up so he was
48:39either standing or
48:41moving up to stand when he started
48:43cursing right yes and he's within about
48:45two feet of you right
48:48um somewhere like that that's what you
48:49told us you were standing or kneeling
48:51when you took this Photograph right or
48:53this Photograph was snapped right yeah
48:54it was a few feet so that the water
48:56wouldn't Splash right and at that point
49:00he gets very upset he does what you said
49:02that he told us and is this what he he
49:05gets this mean look in his face that you
49:06talked about when he picked me up I
49:08looked in his face and you saw this mean
49:11look at his face right yes is this the
49:14same mean look that you told us that you
49:16remember back from August of 2007.
49:21it's a look I've seen more than a few
49:23times I'm asking about August 2007
49:25that's the one I'm asking about
49:28you remember telling us that in August
49:302007 you saw that same mean look that
49:32you saw back on June 4th of 2008. I
49:35remember saying it was very similar
49:36similar means it's about the same thing
49:39right yes and so you see this same look
49:43on his face but in August of 2007 all he
49:46did was grab your wrist say I'm sorry
49:49and held you right
49:51the inside was the same she said it was
49:54similar her overall
49:57um
49:59can you please repeat that
50:01could you read it back to her place
50:08question and so you see the same look on
50:10his face but in August of 2007 all he
50:13did was grab your wrists say I'm sorry
50:15and held you right
50:18um back in August yes
50:20so you're in similar it appears to be in
50:22a similar circumstance
50:24now something else happens right
50:27um yes many somethings later this
50:29something is now happening well
50:31something happens now where you claim
50:34that he grabbed you and threw you down
50:35right hey body slammed me he body
50:38slammed you down right yes uh in a very
50:40forceful way where did his body slam you
50:43down man
50:44right in the same area on the tile
50:46pardon in the same area on the tile my
50:49head would be facing south so in other
50:51words
50:53right here in this area where you were
50:57taking the photographs right
51:00um kind of more like pardon that right
51:03around there whole area I'd say and you
51:07said your head was facing south right
51:08yes so you even though he slammed you
51:12really really hard you were still
51:14cognizant enough to know that your head
51:16was facing south which would be in this
51:19direction right that's where I whacked
51:21my head on the tile yeah and so your
51:23head then is facing south he's
51:25and you're remembering all this even
51:27though he slammed you down really really
51:29hard right
51:30I wasn't thinking South when it happened
51:32but here but you remember the direction
51:35of your head whether it was whatever the
51:37direction you're giving us now you
51:39remember that your head was in this
51:40direction right yes I do
51:43you it wasn't a circumstance that you
51:45hit your head so hard that it made you
51:49lose at least any memory at that point
51:52of what had happened right I don't think
51:55so well no you were there when you say
51:57you don't think so it sounds like you
51:58did you remember your head being this
52:01way right
52:06know that
52:07overall do me answer yeah I just don't
52:10know about head injuries but I just
52:11remember being in that direction I'm not
52:13asking I'm asking whether or not
52:15whatever happened you're you remember
52:18enough to know that your head was facing
52:21in this direction South which is South
52:24right he more or less yes my body was
52:27somewhat parallel with that area I'm
52:29asking about your head I'm not asking
52:30about your body your body is your head
52:34is facing this way right
52:35yes and so
52:38that happens and where's is the camera
52:41still down here next to the
52:46tub
52:48I would assume I don't remember the
52:50camera at that point anymore you don't
52:52remember the camera anymore you were
52:53focused on Mr Alexander and now he's
52:55standing over you right
52:56[Music]
52:58yes and he's standing over you and
53:01you're down
53:02tell me what happens next
53:03I rolled to my left you rolled to your
53:06left which would be
53:08in this direction yes and Mr Alexander
53:10would be in front of you correct
53:12um he was somewhat to my right a little
53:16bit but just outside the shower and I
53:18ran down the hallway well I'm not asking
53:20you anything about that Mr Alexander is
53:23out of the shower correct yes he is or
53:27he stepped out I don't know if he has
53:28one foot in one foot out but he stepped
53:29up well he needed to have been out of
53:33the shower in order for him to grab you
53:35and body slam you didn't he not
53:37necessarily oh so you're saying that he
53:39was in the shower and from the shower he
53:41kind of reached over and grabbed him
53:43body slammed you sideways even though he
53:45wasn't out of the shower no I said he
53:47definitely stepped out but I don't know
53:49if he had both feet out or one foot out
53:51so when he is in the shower
53:55he at least takes one step out and
53:57you're far enough away so that the
53:59water's not going to be getting on the
54:00camera right
54:01right yes and in this position where his
54:05legs are open because potentially right
54:08right yes you're saying that he reaches
54:11over with one leg still in the shower
54:13and he body slams you that's what you
54:15say right no that's not what I said
54:19all right your objection is noted
54:21overall do you may answer the question
54:22that's not what I said well did he when
54:26he body slammed you isn't it true that
54:29he was out of the shower
54:32well yeah okay then why did you tell us
54:35that he was still in the shower why did
54:38you just minutes ago tell us that I
54:40didn't say that you said he had one foot
54:41in the shower didn't you say that no I
54:43didn't say he had one foot in the shower
54:45I said I don't know if he stepped all
54:46the way out or if the one foot was still
54:48in the shower okay so it could be that
54:50one foot was still in the shower you're
54:52telling us when he body slammed you
54:54right it could be or it couldn't be I
54:55don't know all I know is getting boxland
54:57again but you're saying it's a
54:59possibility that the one foot is still
55:01in the shop right
55:02I don't know well you know we're there
55:04right and so far you remember very well
55:07so far because you were scared right
55:09that's what you told us I was terrified
55:10terrified it's the same sort of thing
55:13only escalated right scared is the same
55:15thing as terrifiedal and terrified is
55:17worse right I would say that yes and so
55:20he even though he may have had one foot
55:23in the shower he does step outside right
55:26he yeah he comes toward me enough to
55:28lift me up whatever that took he lifts
55:30me up and body slams me so he actually
55:33body picks you up physically and body
55:36slams you right yes so the what I think
55:39you're now telling us is that the body
55:41slam takes place with both of his feet
55:44out of the shower right I wasn't focused
55:46on his feet so I can't really answer
55:48that question right so then you go down
55:50right yes he's standing up right yes and
55:54he's standing up according to you
55:56right about here right
56:00um
56:00not where you pointed to number three it
56:02wasn't there
56:03how about it number four somewhere
56:06closer in that area it's all the same
56:08general right in here
56:11somewhere in that area you're standing
56:13over me standing over you were his feet
56:16straddling you no were his feet at your
56:20feet
56:21[Music]
56:22um
56:24more like my legs maybe my knees so he
56:29was with his legs open and your knees
56:32were between his legs is that what we're
56:34talking about he wasn't styling me so he
56:36was standing next to your knees right
56:39he was over me but not with both legs on
56:42each side of me right but he was
56:44standing next to your knees right
56:46that's what you said knees are shins it
56:49was all right let's go with nature shins
56:51that part of your leg right
56:53knees or shins right yes and
56:57you were so CL you were close to this
57:00area you remember you told us that you
57:01were close to the top do you remember
57:03telling us that yes and so if he was
57:06standing
57:08he would have had to have been standing
57:10on the if we look at this diagram on the
57:13left side which would be I understand
57:15that this is a direction that you
57:17haven't given but to the lesson right he
57:19was not on the left he was on the right
57:21so he was on the right so he would be on
57:24this side then near your shins
57:26yes so that would mean that your feet
57:28were in front of the shower then right
57:30that's about the general area where they
57:32were all right
57:35and do you know how close your feet were
57:38to the door that was open no
57:41so he's standing there and you're down
57:43right yes and you're terrified right
57:47yes what happens next
57:51well I got the wind knocked out of me
57:53and I hit my head but all right you hit
57:56your head
57:57but you remember everything
57:59based on what you're telling us you
58:01still have a good memory of what
58:02happened right up to that point you got
58:04the wind knocked out of you right yes
58:07but even though you got the wind knocked
58:09out of you you still have a good memory
58:10of what happened right
58:12I don't know how good it is but I
58:13remember it you remember it right yes
58:16use your word
58:17and when you got the wind knocked out of
58:20you
58:21um that means that you were having
58:23difficulty breathing right
58:26um it hurt I don't remember not being
58:28able to breathe it just hurt my rib cage
58:31and my torso So when you say that you
58:34had the wind knocked out of you that may
58:36not be accurate because what you're
58:37really describing is a pain to your
58:40midsection whether it be the ribs or
58:41whatever right yes it was painful it was
58:44painful is is that's not the question
58:46the question is when you said that you
58:48had the wind knocked out of you that may
58:50not be accurate correct
58:53um I'm not sure because I've had the
58:55wind knocked out of me before only a lot
58:57worse than that so so you felt that way
59:00but it just more it was painful so
59:02you've had the wind knocked out of you
59:04before right yes you know what that
59:05feels like right yes you can't breathe
59:08that's why they call it Knocking the
59:09wood out of you right yes so you're
59:12telling us then since you are familiar
59:14with having the one knocked out of you
59:15that you've hit your head you're down
59:17and you can't breathe right I'm not
59:20saying that
59:21you did say that you had the wind
59:23knocked out of you right worse and worse
59:25than this yeah no no no no I'm talking
59:26about here you're telling us that you
59:29had the wind knocked out of you here
59:30right
59:31um I think it was to a degree yes so
59:34you're having difficulty breathing then
59:35at that point right
59:37breathing wasn't going through my mind
59:39at that point I just remembered I'm not
59:41asking you what was going through your
59:42head I'm asking you
59:44that whether or not you are telling us
59:46that you
59:48had difficulty breathing that's all I'm
59:50asking I'm not asking what was going
59:52through your head
59:56um I don't remember that as being a
59:58priority in my mind at that moment I'm
1:00:00not asking you to prioritize your pain
1:00:02you understand that right
1:00:04I'm asking you whether or not because
1:00:07you tell us you had the wind knocked out
1:00:09of you you were having difficulty
1:00:10breathing that's all I'm asking you
1:00:12remember
1:00:15if you don't remember
1:00:18that you were having difficulty
1:00:19breathing and based on your previous
1:00:21experiences with having the wind knocked
1:00:23out of you you didn't have the wind
1:00:25knocked out of you right
1:00:28[Music]
1:00:28um
1:00:31I think the wind was knocked out of me
1:00:33partially for somewhat because that's
1:00:36the that's the Sensation that I felt all
1:00:38right but it didn't involve breathing
1:00:40though is what you're saying did you say
1:00:42did or didn't did not involve a
1:00:44breathing difficulty
1:00:47can't say for sure because that wasn't
1:00:50the immediate
1:00:51problem that I was worried about in that
1:00:54moment and so you're down what happens
1:00:57next
1:00:58I rolled and ran down the hallway well
1:01:01you rolled rolling's a little bit
1:01:02different than running wouldn't you
1:01:04agree
1:01:05yes so even though you're having this
1:01:09wind knocked out of you and you've
1:01:11according you have had your head smacked
1:01:14on the floor you are able to roll to
1:01:17your left right yes I'm sorry to the
1:01:20left correct
1:01:21yes and you are clothed at this time
1:01:25right
1:01:26yes he does not have any clothing on
1:01:29right no he doesn't he's angry though
1:01:32right very angry extremely angry right I
1:01:35would say that yes and you turn to your
1:01:39left to get up right yes and you turn to
1:01:42your left to get up so you can get away
1:01:44right yes you have absolutely uh no
1:01:48problem moving to your left and getting
1:01:51up do you
1:01:54um I don't
1:01:55well you were there I just know I did it
1:01:58and I did it as fast as I could and he
1:02:00didn't stop you from doing that did he
1:02:03I perceived that he was trying to get on
1:02:06top of me so you thought that he was
1:02:08trying to get on top of you you say you
1:02:10perceived which means that it may or may
1:02:12not be something that actually happened
1:02:14so did he get on top of you at that
1:02:16point I rolled away before that could
1:02:18happen so
1:02:20um
1:02:21you rolled away before that could happen
1:02:22means that you're saying that you then
1:02:25try to go down to grab you is that what
1:02:27you're saying
1:02:29um
1:02:30I don't remember him getting down but I
1:02:32remember him just coming at me and
1:02:34coming from me and coming at me though I
1:02:36understand that he's coming at you but
1:02:37you're down on the ground right
1:02:40yes so if he's if you're down on the
1:02:43ground isn't he going to have to by
1:02:45necessity stoop over
1:02:48um if you were to get on top of me yes
1:02:50and so was he stooping over did you see
1:02:53that
1:02:54I don't know I just know that he was
1:02:56coming after me and I rolled well you're
1:02:58telling us that you have these ideas but
1:03:01I'm asking you what what he actually did
1:03:03did he stoop over to get you I can only
1:03:07say the I what was going through my head
1:03:08not what he actually did well you were
1:03:10looking at what he was doing not after I
1:03:12got my head smacked on the tile so you
1:03:14were looking at him at that point right
1:03:16not at that very moment no so it could
1:03:18be that at that point that what he was
1:03:20trying to do when he was turning because
1:03:22you weren't looking at him that when he
1:03:24was trying to stoop down it could be
1:03:25that he was trying to help you to pick
1:03:27you up and apologize right based on the
1:03:29fact that you told us you weren't
1:03:30looking at his face it could be right
1:03:32Jackson crossword
1:03:34[Music]
1:03:37do me answer I can't say he was stooping
1:03:40down so I don't even know how to answer
1:03:41that well he said he was trying to get
1:03:43on top of you
1:03:44I perceived that yes and perception is
1:03:47your eyes you're looking hearing right
1:03:49[Music]
1:03:51um part of that is perception sure
1:03:54and you're telling us that hearing and
1:03:57looking you believe or you think
1:04:00whatever term you want to use that he
1:04:02was going to get on top of you right I'm
1:04:05not saying here you're looking I'm just
1:04:06saying that was my perception so
1:04:09the way you keep backing away from it it
1:04:12appears that what you're telling us it
1:04:14could be that he's stooping down to help
1:04:16you to get up right now
1:04:21rephrase your question
1:04:24you tell us that he was going down at
1:04:27some point so that causing you to move
1:04:29away right
1:04:30no I'm telling you that after I got body
1:04:33slammed I perceived that he was going to
1:04:35try to get on top of me and I wanted to
1:04:36roll away from the situation and run so
1:04:39that was your perception but it wasn't
1:04:41caused by anything he was doing it was
1:04:43caused by why he what he had done before
1:04:46then that's what you're saying
1:04:48certainly by what he'd done before but I
1:04:50don't know exactly what he was doing
1:04:52right after he said you weren't even
1:04:54looking at him right not at that point
1:04:57get up right
1:04:59yes after rolling I got up and ran right
1:05:01and when you get up
1:05:03point to me are you here you're here
1:05:06where are you I'm not sure because I
1:05:08didn't do a full turn I just rolled and
1:05:10got up and ran were you in front of the
1:05:13closet
1:05:15um not directly but
1:05:17are you right there where were you just
1:05:21I I don't know I just rolled and I got
1:05:23up and booked it down the hallway and
1:05:26well this is not the hallway where you
1:05:28went down right no that's not where I
1:05:30ran right and in fact are you saying
1:05:33that you rolled all the way down until
1:05:34you got to the entrance of the hallway
1:05:36yeah
1:05:41um I did not make a full rotation I just
1:05:43rolled to my side and got up and started
1:05:45running so if you are here and you make
1:05:47a half rotation
1:05:49then isn't it true that you would be
1:05:51standing right about here
1:05:54he would be standing right about here
1:05:56when he took off right rephrase the
1:06:00question
1:06:01were you standing right about here when
1:06:02you took off running
1:06:05she didn't know where she was of the
1:06:07world
1:06:08I really am not sure I just got up and
1:06:10started running after I rolled to the
1:06:12side
1:06:14he was still angry at that time right
1:06:16yes he was still angry and he was still
1:06:18screaming at me right yes and this is
1:06:20the individual that on occasion had been
1:06:23telling you what great shape he got in
1:06:25right yes he's this individual that you
1:06:29told us was a wrestler right yes in high
1:06:32school and he's the same individual that
1:06:34part of the reason that we're taking
1:06:36that you were taking these photographs
1:06:37in the shower was because he was in
1:06:39pretty good shape right yes
1:06:42so you take off running and you take off
1:06:44running
1:06:48down the hallway right yes
1:06:55and
1:06:57you go in this direction here is what
1:07:00you're telling us right yes and then
1:07:03you pivot and take a right in here which
1:07:06is the closet right yes
1:07:08yes and you're telling us that this
1:07:11individual that's standing and you're
1:07:13down that's in really good shape that's
1:07:16a really angry
1:07:18and you're running down this hallway
1:07:21you're telling us he can't catch you
1:07:23because you're way faster right
1:07:26that's not what I'm saying well you're
1:07:29saying he didn't catch you you're
1:07:31telling us he didn't catch you here
1:07:32right no he didn't catch you here right
1:07:35no he didn't catch you here right no
1:07:40he's running after you though is what
1:07:42you did tell us all right I didn't look
1:07:44behind me but I assumed well if you
1:07:48didn't look behind you
1:07:51does that mean he wasn't coming after
1:07:53you
1:07:54no ultimately that doesn't mean that
1:07:55because that's not what the reality
1:07:57ended up being
1:07:59so this individual that's in this great
1:08:00or in this shape that you've described
1:08:02you get here before he does right yes I
1:08:05do and he doesn't catch up to you here
1:08:08when you're here he doesn't hasn't
1:08:10caught up to you right
1:08:12that's correct and there's the door
1:08:14there right yes according to you you're
1:08:18able to close that door right I slammed
1:08:20it and but that door doesn't have a lock
1:08:23to it right not that I recall well you
1:08:26were there though right yes
1:08:29let's take a look at exhibit number 78.
1:08:34take a look at it please
1:08:36where were you taking the photographs
1:08:39when this happened I want to see it on
1:08:42on this exhibit outside the shower
1:08:45partner outside the shower well why
1:08:47don't you put a mark on there
1:09:02ma'am were you crying when you were
1:09:03shooting him
1:09:05I don't remember were you crying when
1:09:08you were stabbing him
1:09:11I don't remember about when you cut his
1:09:14throat were you crying man
1:09:16I don't know
1:09:19so take a look then
1:09:21and you're the one that is right
1:09:24yes and you're the same individual that
1:09:28lied about all this right
1:09:31yes so then take a look at it
1:09:39and take a look at the exhibit 78
1:09:44and uh you indicated that
1:09:54you were in this vicinity here
1:09:56with your head in this direction
1:09:58when Mr Alexander was in this vicinity
1:10:00sort of next to you correct
1:10:03yes and you indicated that you were able
1:10:06to get up right yes he was with it a
1:10:10foot of you wasn't he
1:10:12that sounds right I don't know
1:10:14it's about right well he was within an
1:10:17arm's length he could have touched to if
1:10:18he wanted to right
1:10:20um
1:10:21I think so he would have to reach down I
1:10:24guess pardon I can't hear you either
1:10:26pulled the microphone up he would have
1:10:28to reach down because I was on the
1:10:29ground but within arm's length I guess
1:10:31so yeah or he could have kicked you if
1:10:33he wanted to that's how close he was
1:10:34right yes he was that close and you were
1:10:38able to get up right
1:10:40After Rolling I got up yes so you wrote
1:10:42then right yes you were able to get up
1:10:45right yes and he was standing right
1:10:48there correct
1:10:50um in the same place but I rolled away
1:10:51yes and then you began to run correct
1:10:54yes and he began to run after you right
1:10:56I heard his footsteps I didn't look you
1:10:59didn't tell us about in fact when you
1:11:01testified prior to trial you told us
1:11:02that you didn't know if he was coming
1:11:03after you right prior to trial prior
1:11:07this morning when you testified do you
1:11:09remember testifying this morning yeah I
1:11:10didn't know for certain because I didn't
1:11:11look back man
1:11:12my question to you is do you remember
1:11:14testifying this morning yes and do you
1:11:17remember we discussed this issue about
1:11:18going down the hallway do you remember
1:11:19that yes and do you remember that you
1:11:22told us that you had no idea where he
1:11:24was
1:11:27overall do you mean the answer I didn't
1:11:29say that
1:11:30said that you didn't know if he was
1:11:32following you because you weren't paying
1:11:33attention do you remember that
1:11:36um
1:11:36i s no I don't remember saying I didn't
1:11:38know I just remember saying that I
1:11:40wasn't sure and that you didn't know you
1:11:43didn't you said that you didn't hear him
1:11:45right you didn't say about anything
1:11:46about hearing him did you I didn't say
1:11:49that I heard him I didn't say that I
1:11:50didn't hear him
1:11:52so you're now saying that you did hear
1:11:54him coming after you right I'm saying
1:11:56that I thought I heard footsteps running
1:11:58after me when you say you think it
1:12:01implies that you're not sure did you or
1:12:03did you not hear footsteps as you're
1:12:05going down the hallway I think I did
1:12:07okay so you heard footsteps that means
1:12:10he's running after you right that's what
1:12:12I believed well all we care about is
1:12:14what you believe in so you say that he
1:12:17you hear his footsteps right
1:12:19yes so he is coming after you right yes
1:12:23he is makes you scared right very and
1:12:26you're saying that this individual who's
1:12:27in shape is not able to catch you before
1:12:29you turn the corner to go into the uh
1:12:32closet right he did not that's what
1:12:35you're saying that he wasn't fast enough
1:12:36to do it right
1:12:38um that's right and you slammed the door
1:12:40right I did you can't see through the
1:12:43door right that's correct so how do you
1:12:45know he's still mad
1:12:48because Travis never calmed down that
1:12:50quickly ma'am you couldn't see through
1:12:53the door at his expression on his face
1:12:55could you
1:12:57that's correct you couldn't see his eyes
1:12:59correct correct and so you're inside
1:13:03this
1:13:05closet right yes and you don't know what
1:13:08he's doing outside according to you
1:13:10right that's right and so even though
1:13:13you don't know what he's doing outside
1:13:16you claim you go for a weapon right
1:13:19uh not immediately my thought was to run
1:13:21through the other door first so then you
1:13:24sat around and waited is that there was
1:13:26a period of time here that you waited
1:13:28then no it all happened very quickly
1:13:29visible okay well then I thought you
1:13:31said that you thought or did that you
1:13:33took some time to think this out
1:13:36it was it was like instantaneous I just
1:13:39thought as soon as lamador was going to
1:13:40run through the other door and then in a
1:13:43split second I realized where the gun
1:13:45was and I went to grab it so that I
1:13:46could point it at him and protect myself
1:13:48so you're inside this closet right yes
1:13:52and
1:13:54you're ahead of him aren't you
1:13:58in other words he's on the other side of
1:13:59the door right
1:14:00that was my thought I also I'm not
1:14:03asking you what your thinking was I'm
1:14:04asking you isn't it true that he was
1:14:06outside of the door
1:14:08well I I don't know where he was I just
1:14:11wanted to shut the door then he was
1:14:13somewhere in the bedroom then right
1:14:15I don't know he could have been in the
1:14:17bedroom or down running down the hallway
1:14:18to meet me at the other end of the door
1:14:19bottom line he wasn't in the closet with
1:14:21you it's what you're telling us right
1:14:22yes that's right and you don't know what
1:14:24he's doing during this period of time
1:14:26that he's out there right
1:14:29um
1:14:33yes or no do you know what he's doing
1:14:34while he's out there that's it by which
1:14:36period of time you're referring to
1:14:38the period of time where you're not
1:14:40seeing him you don't know what he's
1:14:41doing that's correct and this is a
1:14:44period of time that allows you for
1:14:47contemplation or to think right
1:14:51um if I was in my right mind yes well
1:14:53I'm not asking you whether or not you
1:14:55were in your right mind was I
1:14:58I was asking you whether or not you had
1:15:00time to think
1:15:02right yes and answered the world
1:15:06um
1:15:07I may have had time but well didn't you
1:15:10just tell us just now that you sat not
1:15:12sat that you thought
1:15:14about what you were going to do next
1:15:17right yes I thought of getting away yeah
1:15:20so the answer is yes you did think right
1:15:22yes and in fact when he was
1:15:26when you were doing this thinking he
1:15:28wasn't in the closet right
1:15:31um no he was opening the door man he
1:15:34wasn't in the closet was he
1:15:37um
1:15:39he was opening the door and entering I'm
1:15:41not asking you if he was opening the
1:15:42door I'm at you the way you told the
1:15:44story just now was that you slammed the
1:15:47door didn't you just say that yes I did
1:15:49and when you slammed the door you didn't
1:15:51get his foot right he didn't have his
1:15:53foot in the door right no he didn't have
1:15:55his hand somewhere so the door didn't
1:15:57close right that's right the door closed
1:15:59right yes and for whatever period of
1:16:02time he was outside right
1:16:05I guess because it opened pretty much
1:16:07right away man
1:16:09during this time you were ahead of him
1:16:12inside of that closet according to you
1:16:14right that's right you had enough time
1:16:16to grab the door right
1:16:20no I slammed it you you touched the door
1:16:24right yes and you slam the door right
1:16:28yes it shut right yes at that point he
1:16:32wasn't in that enclosed area with you
1:16:34correct in that very second no he was
1:16:36like you could have continued running
1:16:39out of this door here couldn't you yes
1:16:43you chose not to because you thought
1:16:45about it right
1:16:48um
1:16:48I don't remember really thinking I just
1:16:51remember being scared and
1:16:53trying to put distance and you could
1:16:55have the run out and put distance
1:16:58between to use your term between you and
1:17:01him by running out this door right
1:17:03that's right and if you would have run
1:17:06out this door you could have then run
1:17:08down the hallway right again right
1:17:11that's possible well it's it's something
1:17:14you could have done right
1:17:17um if he hadn't stopped me well wait a
1:17:19minute you said that you were alone in
1:17:21the closet after you slammed the door
1:17:22for a period of time a brief period of
1:17:25time whatever it was
1:17:27right
1:17:29um yes and then so during that brief
1:17:32period of time when this person who
1:17:34obviously is in shape cannot catch you
1:17:36you could have just run around and gone
1:17:39down the hallway
1:17:41correct
1:17:43um not if I'm trying to keep him away
1:17:46from me ma'am you could have done that
1:17:48couldn't you you were alone in the
1:17:50closet right yes I was and so if you're
1:17:52alone in the closet Nothing is Stopping
1:17:54You from heading in this exit door not I
1:17:57know it's a door let's just call it a
1:17:59door okay
1:18:01you could have then taken another right
1:18:03you were familiar with his house right
1:18:04yes you were familiar with the fact that
1:18:06you could have gone down the hallway
1:18:07right
1:18:09yes and then you could have taken a
1:18:11quick left and you would have been down
1:18:12the stairs right no I probably would
1:18:14have been dead well man you could have
1:18:16done that couldn't you not unless I was
1:18:19suicide well you're saying that all of a
1:18:21sudden between the door to the closet
1:18:24the one that's in the bedroom and the
1:18:26door to the closet then in the bathroom
1:18:28he somehow got a lot faster than he did
1:18:31from this area here going all the way
1:18:34around you're saying he all of a sudden
1:18:35got a lot faster right
1:18:38this characterizes her testimony you
1:18:41state your question ma'am the distance
1:18:43from here all the way around to the door
1:18:46is further than the distance from where
1:18:49you were standing inside of the closet
1:18:50to this door here isn't it
1:18:53yes so you could have continued running
1:18:56through here couldn't you
1:18:58yes he wasn't in the closet at that time
1:19:01was he
1:19:03um he was by that point yes well and so
1:19:06he's now in the closet and you're saying
1:19:08that if he's in the closet and yet he
1:19:10allows you according to you because now
1:19:12he's in the closet he allows you to get
1:19:15up and get the gun that's what you're
1:19:16saying because he's not in the closet
1:19:18right
1:19:19he entered the closet at the point that
1:19:21I was jumping up on the Shelf
1:19:24so he
1:19:25so then the door is opening then not
1:19:28when you told us before but when you're
1:19:30going up towards the shelf right yes
1:19:33when I told you before which was almost
1:19:34immediately yeah my question to you is
1:19:37when you went in you were able to have
1:19:41time to go towards the shelves right
1:19:45yes and you just told us now that during
1:19:49that
1:19:49period of time whatever it was he was
1:19:52not in the closet right
1:19:54at that very moment he had not opened
1:19:56the door right so then you just said
1:19:58that you were going over to the closet
1:20:01an area to get the gun right the corner
1:20:05the corner right and as you are in that
1:20:08corner he's coming in through the door
1:20:11right
1:20:12yes as I'm beginning to step up onto the
1:20:15shelf right you're beginning to step up
1:20:16and you're saying now that this person
1:20:18who's coming after you and is angry
1:20:22has now given you more time and you now
1:20:24have more time to get the gun from up in
1:20:27the closet right
1:20:31[Music]
1:20:31um
1:20:32yes
1:20:33that's correct
1:20:35but man this is a very small closet
1:20:38isn't it no it's bigger than the cell
1:20:40that I live in it's bigger than what
1:20:41it's bigger than the cell that I live in
1:20:43it's not a small closet
1:20:46man we don't want to know where you live
1:20:48in do you understand that I'm just using
1:20:50that as reference it's not a small you
1:20:52understand did I ask you where you were
1:20:54living no
1:20:57we're clear right we do not want to know
1:20:59where you're living right now you
1:21:01understand that okay sorry no need to be
1:21:05take that attitude that
1:21:09is there an issue with you with
1:21:10answering the questions as they're posed
1:21:15but I'm trying to answer them the best I
1:21:16can so
1:21:18cute issue with you there is an
1:21:20argumentative of your honor move to
1:21:21strike
1:21:22overall do you may answer
1:21:25um I don't think it is
1:21:28so this closet here is a small closet
1:21:32isn't it
1:21:37overwrote
1:21:38not in my opinion
1:21:48it's actually actually about 11 and a 11
1:21:52and a half feet isn't it from
1:21:54the door over there to this door here
1:21:57isn't it
1:21:59I don't know what that
1:22:02sounds somewhat accurate I would have
1:22:03said well what I can't hear it sounds
1:22:05somewhat accurate but I don't really
1:22:07know as far as distance how long 11.5
1:22:09feet is well then let's take a look at
1:22:11exhibit number 249.
1:22:22see the measurement of a line from
1:22:27here
1:22:29to there do you see what the measurement
1:22:31is yes it's 11 feet 4 inches right yes
1:22:35so it's approx a little bit over 11 and
1:22:37a half feet long then right
1:22:40um
1:22:42around that yes
1:22:44so you're in this closet
1:22:50and when you're in this closet you reach
1:22:52it
1:22:54you reach out to get this gun right yes
1:23:00and on direct examination you remember
1:23:02looking at this photograph which is
1:23:04exhibit number 70.
1:23:07yes
1:23:11yes and you indicated
1:23:14that the gun
1:23:17was up in this corner here right yes
1:23:21that's a pretty high shelf there isn't
1:23:23it no
1:23:26how tall are you man
1:23:28I believe I'm five five and a half last
1:23:30time I checked and this
1:23:36shelving do you see that there yes
1:23:40it goes almost to the roof you see that
1:23:45yes
1:23:46and
1:23:49you see the thing to the right here the
1:23:50door yes it is higher than the door
1:23:53isn't it yes
1:23:55you're saying that standing there in
1:23:58front of that shell you could at five
1:24:01foot
1:24:02six
1:24:04you can reach up and grab that top there
1:24:06no that's not what I'm saying in fact
1:24:09you have to get up on the shelves to do
1:24:10it don't you yes I just got up on one
1:24:13yes or no
1:24:14yes
1:24:15and when you get up on these shelves it
1:24:19isn't a situation that you can just get
1:24:22up with one hand is it I did it so you
1:24:25were able to somehow put one foot on one
1:24:29of these shelves right yes and without
1:24:31putting your hand any the other hand
1:24:34whichever which hand did you grab it
1:24:35with I don't remember all right with the
1:24:38hand that was free that you did not used
1:24:39to grab that you were able to just put
1:24:42one foot out there grab the gun even
1:24:45though you said it was way in the back
1:24:47it's just sitting right in the corner
1:24:49not way in the back there's no back
1:24:51because that's the wall well
1:24:53this is the back part right here that's
1:24:55the term that you used yes and so you're
1:24:58saying that
1:25:01it's in that corner
1:25:03you can according to you
1:25:07put your foot on one of these shelves
1:25:09without disturbing anything else
1:25:11and reach out and grab the gun right
1:25:13that's what I did and you didn't disturb
1:25:16anything else in that closet right
1:25:18nothing was Disturbed right no my foot
1:25:20went right on the edge pardon my foot
1:25:23went right on the edge and you didn't
1:25:25disturb
1:25:26any of the shoes right no didn't disturb
1:25:31any of the pants there right that's
1:25:33correct didn't disturb any of the ties
1:25:36that are there nothing was Disturbed
1:25:38right
1:25:39um no yes that's right nothing was
1:25:41Disturbed
1:25:44we take a look at exhibit number
1:25:4669
1:25:53this gives us a further out View
1:25:56doesn't it yes and it also includes the
1:25:59bench seat right yes
1:26:02nothing is Disturbed there right that's
1:26:04right
1:26:05and yet you're saying that this very
1:26:08angry man
1:26:09is coming through here coming after you
1:26:12right yes
1:26:14and that he is very upset about his
1:26:16camera and that you're able to get
1:26:19the gun up here right that's right is
1:26:22this the same gun that you told
1:26:23detective that he didn't own that's
1:26:26right
1:26:28can't have it both ways man back then on
1:26:31June 10th of that 2008 you did say he
1:26:34did not own a gun correct yes they did
1:26:37and no one was even Consulting you about
1:26:40the investigation you initiated that
1:26:42contact right that's right you agree
1:26:44that what you are telling us today
1:26:47is to be more than fair inconsistent
1:26:50with that statement right that's right
1:26:56and this thing or the statement about
1:26:59the gun this didn't come that you said
1:27:02that it involved the gun didn't come for
1:27:04years
1:27:04until after you had been arrested
1:27:07correct
1:27:09um
1:27:10um yes years it took me to admit it so
1:27:13the answer is yes it came years later
1:27:15right yes
1:27:22we've reviewed a lot of text messages
1:27:24we've reviewed a lot of email or some
1:27:28email correspondence and
1:27:30even your Journal
1:27:32and the text messages there was some
1:27:35exchanges between you and Mr Alexander
1:27:38that could be
1:27:39defined as heated correct
1:27:42yes you guys were fighting it some of
1:27:45these ports right
1:27:47um I would say arguing yes
1:27:50okay arguing then right and now we're in
1:27:53those text messages does he ever
1:27:54threaten you physically destiny
1:27:57um
1:28:02no he doesn't he doesn't does he that's
1:28:05correct and there's no email
1:28:07correspondence in which he's
1:28:09threatening you correct
1:28:15I think
1:28:17and we talk about it but there aren't
1:28:18you dreads me there are no threats
1:28:20correct and there's no police report
1:28:22because you never called the police
1:28:24right that's right
1:28:26there are no individuals that have come
1:28:28in to say that they saw him mistreat you
1:28:31correct
1:28:33um physically that's right well now
1:28:36um
1:28:37you're saying that there are individuals
1:28:39that came in here that say that he
1:28:41mistreated you some other way objection
1:28:47world
1:28:48yeah I do okay so Dan Freeman testified
1:28:52right yes he indicated that he treated
1:28:55you appropriately didn't he say that he
1:28:58did say that yes there was only one
1:29:00fight that that he was present right
1:29:03yes this is the trip to Havasupai do you
1:29:06remember that
1:29:07yes I was mortified about it pardon yes
1:29:10I remember that and do you remember that
1:29:12the reason that there was a fight was
1:29:14that he was trying to make sure that the
1:29:17trip was an enjoyable one right
1:29:21I don't remember Dan saying that well do
1:29:24you remember he said that it needed to
1:29:25be enjoyable and that you needed to take
1:29:27out whatever heavy products were in your
1:29:29backpack do you remember that
1:29:32I remember that's what started the
1:29:33argument right and you got mad at him
1:29:35right
1:29:37no he got mad at me oh so Dan Freeman
1:29:39got mad at you oh I thought you're
1:29:41talking about Travis no I'm asking about
1:29:42Dan Freeman no I've never been mad at
1:29:44Dan Freeman I'm not asking if you're mad
1:29:46at Dan Freeman you Dan Freeman did not
1:29:49get mad at you then did he no he didn't
1:29:51and in fact he indicated he was just
1:29:53trying to make the trip enjoyable
1:29:55because these backpacks can get heavy
1:29:57right yes something to that effect and
1:30:00um somehow
1:30:02given what Dan Freeman did
1:30:04it became a fight between you and Mr
1:30:06Alexander right
1:30:10um it sparked if I yes and the way you
1:30:14phrased it it was Mr Alexander's fault
1:30:16right
1:30:19that time yes it was even though you're
1:30:23the person
1:30:25who was upset
1:30:27at having to conform to what somebody
1:30:29else wanted you to do right
1:30:32um I wasn't that upset well you started
1:30:35to fight not Mr Alexander like you're
1:30:37saying right no I took backpack upstairs
1:30:39and he came in and started screaming at
1:30:41me so you didn't think your actions in
1:30:45no way shape or form ma'am contributed
1:30:48to the problems that happened that
1:30:50morning before you went to Havasupai no
1:30:52they definitely contributed and you they
1:30:54started it didn't they
1:30:57[Music]
1:30:58um
1:30:59I didn't think we were arguing so well I
1:31:02don't know your actions were the ones
1:31:04that started this whole fracas weren't
1:31:06they
1:31:09I guess no don't say that you gasped man
1:31:12you were there right
1:31:16yes I was there and you know how the
1:31:18fight started right
1:31:21I do yeah and it was because you
1:31:25had an attitude because Daniel Freeman
1:31:27had gotten got into your stuff and
1:31:29removed items right
1:31:34overall do me answer uh that's not when
1:31:37I would consider the argument beginning
1:31:39all right you don't consider that in
1:31:41fact though we've looked at these text
1:31:43messages and and we've been talking
1:31:45about whether or not there's any
1:31:46indication that Mr Alexander ever
1:31:48threatened physical harm to you and you
1:31:50said no right yes but you did you
1:31:53threatened physical harm to him didn't
1:31:55you as a joke I think no yes or no
1:31:58didn't you threaten him with physical
1:32:00harm yes or no
1:32:02um I don't remember ever threatening
1:32:05Travis with physical harm ever
1:32:07Salem let's take a look at one of the
1:32:08exhibits that you entered exhibit 443
1:32:12start at the top
1:32:16he says to you
1:32:19it gets old when you dramatize
1:32:21everything you stress me out on a
1:32:23regular basis
1:32:24you have 27 hours and you're moaning
1:32:26about not making PC you shouldn't hang
1:32:29up on someone trying to help you now you
1:32:32are on your own that's what it says
1:32:33right yes that is not a happy text
1:32:36message is it
1:32:38no it isn't that is not a joking text
1:32:41message right yes
1:32:43and then you say nor should you have to
1:32:46that's your response right no that's
1:32:49that's not coming that's you nor should
1:32:51I have two yes
1:32:52and then he respond and then you say
1:32:54after that
1:32:56within seconds I wanted to tell you
1:32:58something about today it it's important
1:33:00and time is of the essence right that's
1:33:03what you tell him yes he responds to you
1:33:07too bad you shouldn't have hung up on me
1:33:10right
1:33:11uh yes
1:33:12still not a joking conversation right
1:33:15yes still a fight or an argument by a
1:33:19text message right yes
1:33:22and then
1:33:24you say
1:33:27it was for your own benefit not mine I
1:33:30only wanted to tell you because I care
1:33:32about you right yes now the mood is
1:33:35changing he only did this because he
1:33:37cared for him right yes and so uh
1:33:41hanging up on him is because you really
1:33:43love him right
1:33:46I guess indirectly it could be that way
1:33:49okay so you show Love by in this
1:33:52circumstance hanging up on him right
1:33:55I didn't love him his swearing wouldn't
1:33:57hurt as bad so I wouldn't hang up on her
1:33:59so yes you hung up on him right yes I
1:34:01did and you hung up on him because you
1:34:03love him right that's what you're saying
1:34:06I'm saying in an indirect way it could
1:34:07be construed so the answer is yes
1:34:09correct that's not the direct reason
1:34:12but
1:34:14you're you hung up on him and you're
1:34:16saying that you hung up on him because
1:34:18you love him yes or no
1:34:21put plainly like that I would have to
1:34:22say no okay
1:34:27and then he says
1:34:29whatever Jody doesn't he yes he's upset
1:34:32at that point right
1:34:34he um
1:34:36I don't know you think he's happy there
1:34:38he's actually
1:34:40overall to me answer the answer no I
1:34:43don't think that pardon I don't think
1:34:44that
1:34:46well the first
1:34:49text message was at 1653 and we
1:34:52understand that that's seven hours ahead
1:34:54the text message where he says whatever
1:34:57Jody is 1657 do you see that
1:35:00uh yes it's a roughly about four minutes
1:35:03later right right and you told us that
1:35:06you guys were fighting in this
1:35:07conversation right
1:35:12yes we were arguing right during these
1:35:14four minutes that it takes to text
1:35:16message back and forth right
1:35:18so it's not a joking conversation right
1:35:23um not at this point no and then you
1:35:25answer almost immediately
1:35:28I whatever you in the nose Travis yes
1:35:31you think that's funny right that's a
1:35:33joke yeah that was his joke that was his
1:35:36joke I'm asking you if you think that's
1:35:39funny
1:35:40that's a joke I was hoping he would
1:35:42think it's funny man I'm asking you if
1:35:45you think that's the joke
1:35:49the whatever you in the nose
1:35:52how whatever you in the nose Travis
1:35:54right
1:35:56um
1:35:57well that was my goal so at the time
1:35:59yeah so you thought it was a joke right
1:36:01yes
1:36:03yeah I'm trying to diffuse his anger
1:36:08but that's not what it indicates there
1:36:10Travis I'm trying to defuse the anger
1:36:12I'm
1:36:13Humanity I'm going to punch you in the
1:36:15notes she's already said what it
1:36:16indicates
1:36:18rubber will do me answer well not if you
1:36:21know Travis yeah you're wrong so that
1:36:25way let's take a look at the next
1:36:27message
1:36:28it says I was just trying to help you
1:36:30I've hung up you've hung up on me
1:36:32several times before even after I've
1:36:34asked you not to it's reasonable that I
1:36:37shouldn't tolerate swearing but again
1:36:40I'm very sorry have a great day you're
1:36:42still fighting in between there aren't
1:36:44you
1:36:45no I'm trying to ameliorate the
1:36:47situation
1:36:49fight isn't over that's why you're
1:36:50apologizing right
1:36:53[Music]
1:36:55I guess
1:36:57so it's not a joke then right no it was
1:37:00a joke so you say that you grab the gun
1:37:03from
1:37:04this area here this is exhibit number
1:37:0670.
1:37:08up at the top without disturbing
1:37:10anything right that's correct
1:37:12and so then
1:37:15what do you do
1:37:19right as I'm reaching for it or getting
1:37:21up on the Shelf he's opening the door so
1:37:23I run out the other door and he follows
1:37:25me and I turn and point well let me stop
1:37:27you there what you're saying is that
1:37:29you're able to get the gun before he
1:37:31opens the door right no it's right it's
1:37:34contemporaneous with that so he's
1:37:36opening the door and you're grabbing the
1:37:38gun around that time yes okay right
1:37:40around the same moment so if you're down
1:37:44here toward the end here which is near
1:37:46the door you agree with me that the gun
1:37:48was near the door right
1:37:51um when I grabbed it yes pardon when I
1:37:55grabbed it yes no when it's kept up here
1:37:57this is near the door area isn't it yes
1:38:00and you're saying that that's the time
1:38:02that he's opening the door to get into
1:38:04the closet right as I'm going for it yes
1:38:07yes so you have at least 11 and a half
1:38:10to 12 foot head start at that point
1:38:12don't you
1:38:16um yes and with that Head Start which is
1:38:19the length of the closet by the time
1:38:21he's opening the door if you chose to
1:38:23you could have been at this door
1:38:24couldn't you yes
1:38:26you chose to escalate this didn't you
1:38:29even though you had that 12 foot Head
1:38:31Start didn't you
1:38:33no I didn't choose to escalate it I was
1:38:35trying to de-escalate it and you chose
1:38:37to de-escalate the situation by
1:38:40according to you getting a handgun right
1:38:42yes
1:38:44just like in this situation here in
1:38:47exhibit 443 you try to de-escalate the
1:38:51fight by telling him
1:38:53how whatever you in the nose Travis
1:38:55right yes except that was a joke yes yes
1:38:58or no yes
1:39:01so then that you've now grabbed the guy
1:39:14let's take a look at exhibit number 72.
1:39:20you see the closet door there yes
1:39:22that's the one that you came out of
1:39:24right yes where do you go
1:39:27into the bathroom pardon into the
1:39:29bathroom this is the bathroom that we're
1:39:31looking at right yes and so you go in
1:39:34there where do you stand
1:39:37in the center so this would be the
1:39:39center right about here right
1:39:42um
1:39:45I don't know it's a little farther than
1:39:46that
1:39:47so here even further away than this
1:39:50picture shows into the bathroom right
1:39:53um
1:39:54I'm right about there
1:39:56and you run in into the bathroom don't
1:39:58you yes you're in a hurry right
1:40:02yes you want to get away right
1:40:05um
1:40:06I want him to not get close to me well
1:40:08you want to get away that's what's going
1:40:10on right I want him to not get near me
1:40:12that's what's going on right and so
1:40:14you're going quickly aren't you
1:40:18yes it was frantic you're not going
1:40:20leisurely right definitely not and so
1:40:23when you get inside here you
1:40:26what run in here is that what you do
1:40:30I took a few steps and turned around all
1:40:33right the few steps that you take are
1:40:35the quick running steps are they just
1:40:37leisurely steps they are
1:40:40quick steps like running right because
1:40:43you want to get away from the
1:40:44circumstance according to you right
1:40:47yes but the floor was wet and it was
1:40:50kind of slippery but you had socks right
1:40:53um I don't remember well then let me
1:40:55help you refresh the rubber left here
1:40:58take a look at exhibit 162.
1:41:02see that photograph there yes you see
1:41:06that foot there right yes that is your
1:41:08foot right yes there is some Footwear on
1:41:11there correct yes that is a sock right
1:41:15kiss or are you saying it's a shoot
1:41:17which one is it it's a black sock
1:41:21so you run in here
1:41:28and you say it's wet right
1:41:30yes
1:41:33but
1:41:35if anybody is more wet it's him right
1:41:37yes because if you're talking about
1:41:39slipping he's the one that's more at the
1:41:42slip because he's the one that's wet
1:41:43correct correct not you because you are
1:41:46not wet right
1:41:49um yes that's right and the socks
1:41:53provide better traction don't they
1:41:55yes and so what you do then is according
1:41:58to you is
1:41:59you then go in here and then you pivot
1:42:03right or turn around yes
1:42:07right that's correct you run in here you
1:42:10don't run that way it's easier to go to
1:42:13the right isn't it than it is to come to
1:42:15the center of the bathroom isn't it
1:42:19um
1:42:21I don't know I wasn't thinking of left
1:42:24or right or forward or what it's just
1:42:26getting closer to go to the right down
1:42:29the hallway than it is to come into this
1:42:31area in the bathroom isn't it
1:42:35um I would say it's equal distance
1:42:37all right so it's equal distance in this
1:42:39area that you go to
1:42:41and then you turn around right which
1:42:44takes some time
1:42:47right
1:42:48um yeah let's take some time to Pivot
1:42:51doesn't it
1:42:53you have the gun which hand do you have
1:42:54the gun up in both
1:42:56so
1:42:58um you have it out like this with both
1:42:59hands outstretched correct
1:43:03and so you have the gun outstretched and
1:43:05he's still not there yet right he's
1:43:07still in the closet he's coming out the
1:43:09door as I turn so he's at the door now
1:43:11right
1:43:12how far away are you from the door
1:43:18I don't know
1:43:20I'm somewhere in the middle of the
1:43:21bathroom you're in the middle of the
1:43:22bathroom and he's standing at the door
1:43:24right
1:43:26he's not standing he's running toward me
1:43:28so he's running very fast right yes
1:43:30almost without giving you a time to
1:43:32react right
1:43:35that's the way you describe it right
1:43:39um I don't know he just was running at
1:43:41me as I turned around
1:43:43right and he was really close at the
1:43:46time you turned around right
1:43:50um
1:43:50[Music]
1:43:53I don't know he was coming at me he got
1:43:55I understand he was coming at you I'm
1:43:56talking about how close he was he was
1:43:58close right
1:44:01he was
1:44:03closer than I wanted him to be at that
1:44:05moment but I don't know what you mean by
1:44:06well how close is him being closer than
1:44:10you wanted him to be how close is that
1:44:13um
1:44:15I don't know I just didn't want him I
1:44:18understand I didn't want him near you
1:44:20but how close is he to you is it was his
1:44:22closest to you in the court reporter
1:44:23Jackson answer
1:44:27a world
1:44:29um at one point yes but that distance
1:44:30was closed okay and that distance was
1:44:33closed after or the distance was closed
1:44:36and then you shot him though in other
1:44:38words he got closer before you shot him
1:44:40[Music]
1:44:44um I think it was all simultaneous
1:44:47you think what it was all simultaneous
1:44:50you don't have any problem remembering
1:44:52this part of the the event do you
1:44:55when you break it down that much yes
1:44:58I'm not it's something that according to
1:45:00you you said on direct examination I've
1:45:02never killed anyone before you remember
1:45:03saying that yes so it's kind of a
1:45:06highlight in your life wouldn't you
1:45:07agree or a low life however you want to
1:45:09look at it
1:45:10a defining moment right and as a
1:45:14defining moment to use your term it's
1:45:16something that'll stick with you won't
1:45:17it yes and so I'm asking about a
1:45:21defining moment in your life how far
1:45:23away this individual was when you had
1:45:25the gun out
1:45:26the gun that you brought from
1:45:30Yreka didn't you objection is
1:45:32characterized it's their testimony it's
1:45:33a compound question reset your question
1:45:36you brought the gun from Yreka didn't
1:45:37you no
1:45:42so
1:45:43how far away was he he was running
1:45:45toward me so the distance buried
1:45:49well he couldn't have been running
1:45:50towards you very long because if he's
1:45:52here in the breach of the door and
1:45:55you're right a little bit down here
1:45:57that's within four feet isn't it
1:46:01I guess I don't know how long it was
1:46:03well then maybe if we take a look at the
1:46:10the measurements here
1:46:13it'll tell us a little bit okay
1:46:28you see that the door is 33 inches right
1:46:32and that's where he was standing right
1:46:35he was never just standing he was in
1:46:37motion that's where he went through in
1:46:39the breach way when you saw him coming
1:46:40at you according to you correct that's
1:46:42correct and the distance from here to
1:46:46here
1:46:50and if you want I'll show it's 36 inches
1:46:52do you see that
1:46:53no where it's right here
1:46:56okay so that's three feet right
1:47:01um yes and if you just take that out and
1:47:03you stand right there isn't that about
1:47:04where you told me you were about three
1:47:06feet from the door
1:47:07no I didn't say that I was more in the
1:47:09center of the bathroom it was what in
1:47:11the center more toward the center of the
1:47:12bathroom all right if it was in the
1:47:13center can you see how far this is here
1:47:16can you see if that's a six or no that
1:47:18looks like a six all right so if we go
1:47:20six
1:47:21and
1:47:23three feet that's nine feet right yes
1:47:27but that's not accurate
1:47:30so you're saying whoever measured this
1:47:31didn't measure this accurate no not the
1:47:34measurements don't correlate to where
1:47:37she was these talking apples and oranges
1:47:39objection to the speaking of addiction
1:47:41nature of the objection
1:47:43I'm going to overall the objection you
1:47:46may restate your question
1:47:48the distance from
1:47:51here to here you've told us it's three
1:47:53feet right yes
1:47:55distance from
1:47:56here to there is about nine feet right
1:47:59[Music]
1:48:01um
1:48:05deal she didn't make these measurements
1:48:07sustained all right this says six feet
1:48:10right yes
1:48:12this says
1:48:1436 inches right
1:48:16yes so that's nine feet total right yes
1:48:20and you were standing you said
1:48:24about the middle of this room right
1:48:26right about here that's what you said
1:48:28right a little more right around there
1:48:30somewhere yes right right about the
1:48:31middle and if we take it across that
1:48:33would be where the six was you see that
1:48:36it looks about to scale yes pardon it
1:48:39looks like it's to scale I'm gonna
1:48:41object to the accuracy the measurements
1:48:43judge in terms of where he's asking or
1:48:45in the measurement of where she was
1:48:46standing
1:48:50approach please
1:48:56so you said that you were right here
1:48:58correct
1:49:00right about there and then he's coming
1:49:02through the door right yes and you have
1:49:05your hands out stretched with the gun
1:49:07right yes so that in terms of the
1:49:11how close he is to you that brings in
1:49:13the length of your arms that brings in
1:49:15that much closer closer to the muzzle of
1:49:18the weapon doesn't it yes and he's
1:49:21moving fast isn't he
1:49:24yes he is moving very fast and you said
1:49:27it happened very very quickly right yes
1:49:29he's not wearing any clothing correct
1:49:31correct and he comes at you right yes
1:49:34and
1:49:35according to you he is on you when you
1:49:38shoot him right
1:49:40not quite on me I think the gun went off
1:49:44and then he impacted me right shortly
1:49:47after that
1:49:48what I'm asking ma'am is you have your
1:49:50hands outstretched right yes and he's
1:49:53coming towards you because you've
1:49:54already told us that you're here correct
1:49:58right about there and that he is coming
1:50:01through the door right yes and you have
1:50:03your hands outstretched toward facing
1:50:06him don't you uh yes and that he keeps
1:50:09coming towards you and
1:50:12he's not stopping is what you told us
1:50:13right
1:50:15yes and in fact according to your
1:50:17testimony on Direct he falls on top of
1:50:19you right
1:50:20he lunges at me like a linebacker he
1:50:22lunges at you and that's when the gun
1:50:25goes off right it went off prior to
1:50:29prior to him launching at you no prior
1:50:31to impacting me so in other words he's
1:50:33lunging at you and is almost on you and
1:50:36then the weapon according to you goes
1:50:38off right
1:50:41um
1:50:41something like that he lunged he went to
1:50:44lunch as the gun was going off and then
1:50:46he impact
1:50:48so he's already moving sort of in the
1:50:50air towards you when the gun goes off
1:50:52right is that what you're saying yes he
1:50:55was moving like
1:50:57for my waist
1:50:59and it comes 14 right yes and you just
1:51:03keep saying like a linebacker what does
1:51:05that mean
1:51:07linebackers kind of get down low and
1:51:09Crouch and then they attack and
1:51:11everything whatever they do and that's
1:51:12kind of what it reminded me of didn't
1:51:14get down with his hand on the ground but
1:51:16he got down low and he
1:51:18he impacted my torso like I'm not asking
1:51:22where any impacted your torso I want to
1:51:24know how he was standing
1:51:27such that you can Define it Define it as
1:51:30a linebacker stance
1:51:33because it reminded me of a linebacker
1:51:35the way he I understand that reminded
1:51:37you of that what was he doing
1:51:39yes
1:51:41finish
1:51:44he
1:51:46when he lunged at me he was he crouched
1:51:49like a linebacker kind of that's why I
1:51:51say that because that's what it reminded
1:51:52me of I understand that's what it
1:51:54reminded you of how does a linebacker
1:51:56Crouch man explain that to me you just
1:51:58keep defining a linebacker crouching by
1:52:01saying he crouches like a linebacker how
1:52:04he got down kind of low okay does that
1:52:07mean that he was all the way down on the
1:52:10ground is that what you're saying no
1:52:11it's almost like he dove
1:52:14kind of like that so he's he Dove at you
1:52:18and he's very close correct
1:52:22um
1:52:24yeah he was pretty close I guess too
1:52:26close for my comfort and as he's diving
1:52:30towards you that's when the gun goes up
1:52:32right
1:52:37it all happened so fast and you do have
1:52:40your hands outstretched right yes and
1:52:43from then on you say that you don't
1:52:45remember anything right
1:52:47no I remember a little bit after that
1:52:49well
1:52:50okay what happened to the gun
1:52:53I it got knocked out of my hand how did
1:52:56it get knocked out of your hand then the
1:52:58impact the impact from what from Travis
1:53:01hitting me so he actually fell on top
1:53:04but he was that close but he fell on top
1:53:05of you right
1:53:07um
1:53:08we both fell together but he didn't fall
1:53:11on top of me I was trying to prevent him
1:53:13from getting on top of me he lunged at
1:53:16me and
1:53:17hit me and knocked the gun out of my
1:53:20hand we both fell backward toward the
1:53:21trash can
1:53:23I don't understand you said that you're
1:53:25out here with a gun outstretched right
1:53:27yes that he's lunging towards you right
1:53:29that's correct and he's looking at you
1:53:32though isn't he when he's launching
1:53:36um I don't know where he's looking
1:53:39I don't know where he was looking you
1:53:42could see his face right
1:53:46I don't recall like looking in his eyes
1:53:49seeing his face I'm not asking you if
1:53:51you're looking at his eyes I'm asking
1:53:53you whether or not you could see his
1:53:55face
1:53:58um not really like he was kind of like
1:54:00okay so what you're saying then is that
1:54:03he is more like a bull rather than a
1:54:05linebacker because he's got his
1:54:07got his and he's charging like a bull
1:54:09with his head down that's what you're
1:54:11saying right
1:54:12not quite down like that maybe in
1:54:14between that would be accurate all right
1:54:16so he's in between here if he's got his
1:54:18head down
1:54:20as you tell us that he does and you say
1:54:23you can't see his face though that's
1:54:25what you say right
1:54:27no I just don't remember whether I
1:54:29noticed his face or not he was just this
1:54:32ball of Fury coming at me and that's
1:54:34what I remember and you said you
1:54:36couldn't see his eyes that's what you
1:54:37just said right I don't remember seeing
1:54:40his eyes so that means you didn't see
1:54:42his eyes right that doesn't mean that
1:54:44just means I don't remember looking into
1:54:45his eyes so if he's down in this
1:54:48position that you're talking about with
1:54:50his head down like that
1:54:53how could he possibly know to come after
1:54:56you if he's looking down how is he going
1:54:58to do feel his way around yeah sustained
1:55:04he has head down
1:55:07that's what you said right
1:55:10he was like a I can just describe it as
1:55:13like a linebacker unless I get up and
1:55:14act it out which I would like to not do
1:55:16possible if possible then do it go ahead
1:55:18show us how he was standing immediately
1:55:20before or how he was sitting or
1:55:23crouching immediately before this
1:55:26happened you could do it just from there
1:55:29he no no no go ahead and do it
1:55:35just stand
1:55:37okay
1:55:41ladies and gentlemen I'm going to ask
1:55:42that you go back to the Jury Room for
1:55:44approximately five minutes we will call
1:55:46you back in approximately five minutes
1:55:48please remember the admonition you are
1:55:50excused
1:55:58record will show the jury has left the
1:55:59courtroom please be seated
1:56:04Council you may approach
1:56:08Mr Martinez you may proceed
1:56:11outside the presence of the jury can you
1:56:14just step to the left
1:56:16and then and then come down here come
1:56:18all the way around you may
1:56:21ladies and gentlemen I'm going to ask
1:56:22that you leave the courtroom for a few
1:56:24minutes approximately five minutes then
1:56:26we will call you back
1:56:28I'm going to ask that the cameras stop
1:56:30recording at this time
1:56:33please be seated the record will show
1:56:36the presence of the jury the defendant
1:56:37and all Council Mr Martinez you may
1:56:39continue ma'am my stand up go to the
1:56:42left and show me the posture
1:56:45of Mr Alexander immediately before he
1:56:49rushed you according to you
1:56:52um just show me that's what I'm asking
1:56:54you to do not pop show me
1:56:57show me the linebacker pose he got down
1:57:00and well show me show me the linebacker
1:57:02pose that's what I'm asking for you to
1:57:04do okay he went like that and he turned
1:57:06his head and grabbed my waist just like
1:57:08that correct pretty much and he grabbed
1:57:10your waist right I can't say it's just
1:57:12like that but that's what I remember no
1:57:14just
1:57:15I want without talking just show me the
1:57:18post
1:57:19he got down like that
1:57:21like that all right go ahead and have a
1:57:23seat then
1:57:24and you said that this happened
1:57:30right about here correct
1:57:33um I don't know it was somewhere in the
1:57:34center of the bathroom right so how is
1:57:37it now that if you are shooting him and
1:57:40that's the first thing that happens how
1:57:42has it been ma'am that the shell casing
1:57:46exhibit 111.
1:57:48then landed in blood
1:57:57it didn't land in blood
1:57:59you see exhibit 111 right yes that's the
1:58:03casing that was involved in this case
1:58:05wasn't it yes there was a casing that
1:58:08was ejected wasn't it yes
1:58:10and when you say that this happened
1:58:12there wasn't any blood on the floor was
1:58:14it that's correct this was the first if
1:58:18you will blow correct yes and this is
1:58:22how the casing landed you see it
1:58:25that's not how it landed from the blow
1:58:26man
1:58:28you do see the casing there don't you
1:58:30yes
1:58:35after he came at you man any that
1:58:38happened
1:58:40did you go down
1:58:42we both went down
1:58:43went down on your back right
1:58:47um yes I went on my back did you strike
1:58:50your head
1:58:52um I don't recall striking my head that
1:58:54time okay so the answer is no you did
1:58:56not strike your hat objections
1:59:00I don't I don't know I don't think I did
1:59:03but I don't know and was he on top of
1:59:06you how was he how was it he landed to
1:59:09the side of me and was grabbing at my
1:59:11clothes okay so he landed to which side
1:59:13of you the right or the left the right
1:59:15and so he landed to the right side and
1:59:17now he's got this gunshot where
1:59:20I didn't know he had a gunshot I'm not
1:59:22asking you if you had if you knew he had
1:59:24a gunshot we know he did
1:59:26I'm asking you
1:59:28he's got this gunshot and what's he
1:59:30doing
1:59:31he's very pissed off and he's trying to
1:59:34grab me and he's speaking to you right
1:59:38um he was screaming obscenities at me
1:59:41what's he saying to you after he was
1:59:43shot tell me what he was saying I don't
1:59:45remember the words I can't remember a
1:59:48single word that he screamed at you
1:59:49afterwards
1:59:52no I don't and he's screaming screaming
1:59:57this loudly screaming Applause that he's
1:59:59doing it loudly correct
2:00:00yes
2:00:01and so
2:00:03he is to your left or to your right
2:00:07you're facing up so is he to your left
2:00:08or right my right
2:00:10that means he's toward the tub correct
2:00:12he would be on that side but not near
2:00:15the tub I don't think but it would be on
2:00:17that side correct that's correct and
2:00:20you're saying he wasn't bleeding at that
2:00:22time I'm not saying that I'm just saying
2:00:24well I don't know you haven't asked me
2:00:25anything about that pardon I don't think
2:00:27you've asked me anything about it I'm
2:00:28asking you right now are you saying that
2:00:30he wasn't bleeding no I'm not saying
2:00:32that so he was pleading at the time
2:00:34right I don't remember seeing any blood
2:00:36at that moment so when he's down there
2:00:39you don't see any blood right
2:00:42no so that for example
2:00:45that at that point there can be no blood
2:00:47in the bathroom we can agree on that
2:00:49right no I don't agree with that there
2:00:51was blood somewhere in the bathroom
2:00:53immediately after you shot him other
2:00:55than around him
2:00:57I don't know
2:00:59well you were there right yes you said
2:01:02that you ran
2:01:04in this direction right yes when he was
2:01:06chasing you did you happen to see the
2:01:08blood over here on the left side when
2:01:09you were running in that direction there
2:01:11was no blood there when I was running in
2:01:13that direction and was there any blood
2:01:15down here when you ran there the first
2:01:17time no
2:01:20how about any blood
2:01:22right here where it says number five
2:01:26that's right here
2:01:28no so there was no blood when you shot
2:01:30him then right
2:01:35um not at the moment the gun went off
2:01:38how about immediately after he was
2:01:40struck was there any blood I don't
2:01:44remember
2:01:46weren't you looking at him or anything
2:01:50um I wasn't like examining him or
2:01:52looking you weren't looking at him
2:01:57right after the gun went off yes I'm
2:01:59right after the Gun Room
2:02:01I think I closed my eyes really tight I
2:02:04don't remember seeing
2:02:06him I just remember getting hit really
2:02:08hard and we fell so you remember going
2:02:10down and and you don't remember looking
2:02:13at his face or anything like that right
2:02:15not at that point well aren't you
2:02:17according to you you don't know if he's
2:02:19been shot isn't he still a threat
2:02:21definitely right and you're not trying
2:02:23to get away at that point right I was
2:02:26well no you said you had your eyes
2:02:27closed and you were just laying there
2:02:29didn't you just say that no I closed my
2:02:31eyes I think as the gun began to go off
2:02:33all right you opened them up at some
2:02:35point right
2:02:37yes uh did you open them up when he was
2:02:39Brian lying right next to you on your
2:02:41right hand side I believe I did and so
2:02:44then you see him bleeding right I didn't
2:02:46look at him so you never looked at him
2:02:48but he's cursing at you though right
2:02:50yes he's cursing at you just like he was
2:02:53before right
2:02:55um maybe not the same words but he was
2:02:57cursing at me he was cursing He was
2:02:59cursing at you which you say
2:03:01precipitated this killing right
2:03:05um yeah and so then you say that you're
2:03:07down on the ground and he's still
2:03:09cursing whatever the words may be right
2:03:11yes and you're not looking at him now
2:03:13right no you're not rolling away from
2:03:16him now right I'm attempting to get away
2:03:18at this point
2:03:20with your eyes closed right no your eyes
2:03:24are open now right I believe they are
2:03:26open yeah and you're not looking at the
2:03:27source of the danger then
2:03:30um no you're not no
2:03:34why not if you were looking at him
2:03:36before and this is the reason that this
2:03:39person you you claim may want to be
2:03:40threatening you
2:03:42why don't you look at whatever the
2:03:44source is so that you can try to get
2:03:46away again I don't need to because I
2:03:48already know what he's doing at that
2:03:49point you think he's what I didn't need
2:03:52to because I already knew what he was
2:03:53doing at that point you already knew
2:03:55what he was doing at that point yes you
2:03:57knew he was cursing right yes he knew he
2:03:59was right next to you right yes you know
2:04:01he was grabbing at you right yes and so
2:04:03you just got your eyes closed and you
2:04:05don't even know where you're gonna go
2:04:07um I believe I said my eyes weren't
2:04:09closed at this point okay so your eyes
2:04:10are closed for how long I don't know I
2:04:12just blinked hard I guess I don't know
2:04:14so then you do open your eyes right
2:04:16yes
2:04:18okay do you see blood
2:04:21I don't remember seeing blood so you
2:04:23don't even see blood at that point then
2:04:24right no and he's still not dead right
2:04:28definitely not he's very angry he's very
2:04:31angry and this is seconds afterwards
2:04:33right yes is he on all fours now
2:04:36um he's on the side of me grabbing at my
2:04:38clothes and grabbing at me so he's on
2:04:40this on your right side grabbing at you
2:04:42right yes is he punching at you
2:04:46um
2:04:47no is he hitting you no
2:04:51is he is he doing anything else
2:04:53he's just trying to it seemed like he's
2:04:55trying to get control of me and I was
2:04:56trying to push him away
2:05:00throughout this whole thing where you
2:05:04are having this confrontation to him do
2:05:07you ever tell him to stop do you ever
2:05:09tell him to do anything I think I
2:05:10screamed stop when I pointed the gun at
2:05:12him and and he when he when he's next to
2:05:15you on the right hand side did you say
2:05:17anything to him
2:05:19I don't remember
2:05:26are you saying that you're having a hard
2:05:27time remembering things that are
2:05:30happening now that you've shot him
2:05:32yes so it appears then that your memory
2:05:35becomes faulty immediately upon you
2:05:36shooting him
2:05:40yeah things get very foggy from there
2:05:42that immediately the shot
2:05:45takes him down and it creates a fog for
2:05:48you is that what you're saying
2:05:49it begins to create a fog so but you
2:05:53aren't struck by the
2:05:54shop were you
2:05:56no
2:05:58uh in fact
2:06:00um you don't have really any injuries as
2:06:03a result of killing him do you other
2:06:06than the one to your left finger left
2:06:07ring finger correct
2:06:09that's the only visible injury pardon
2:06:11that's the only visible injury I'm
2:06:13talking about visible injuries right
2:06:15that's the only visible injury that you
2:06:17have the one to your left ring finger
2:06:19even though according to you he slammed
2:06:21you down right when he got out of the
2:06:23shower and then he slammed you down
2:06:25again when he when he was coming at you
2:06:27and you had to pull the gun according to
2:06:28you right yes and he's also grabbing at
2:06:31you while you're down on the ground and
2:06:32he's not being gentle about it right
2:06:34that's correct no bruising no anything
2:06:37other than just a thing to the the
2:06:39injury to the left ring finger right I
2:06:42don't know if my skull was bruised
2:06:43pardon I don't know if my skull was
2:06:45bruised aside from that you but do you
2:06:47get medical care for that
2:06:49no do you seek medical care for your
2:06:52finger
2:06:53um
2:06:56no I did not not Professional Medical
2:06:58Care well
2:06:59you do have an injury to that left ring
2:07:01finger don't you
2:07:03yes and so when you arrive out in
2:07:07West Jordan Utah
2:07:09and you see Mr Burns you did have an
2:07:12injury to your left finger we're talking
2:07:14about two different injuries no Well
2:07:17ma'am she just told me when we were
2:07:19talking about this killing that yes you
2:07:22injured your left ring finger do you
2:07:24remember just telling me that just now
2:07:26no more than two minutes ago yes I was
2:07:29referring to this injury
2:07:31ma'am were we really talking about this
2:07:34particular injury at that time I didn't
2:07:36know you were just talking about you
2:07:38don't know we were talking about the
2:07:39killing man
2:07:41you talked about the injury to my left
2:07:43finger what have we been talking about
2:07:46the whole afternoon
2:07:50Overworld
2:07:52uh June 4th pardon June 4th right we
2:07:55haven't mentioned any other day right
2:07:58not to my recollection
2:08:00you've been here throughout these
2:08:02proceedings and you've been answering or
2:08:03you've been asked questions right yes
2:08:05and as we were talking about it just now
2:08:08I asked you is it a truth that the only
2:08:11injury as a result of this incident was
2:08:14this entry to your left ring finger and
2:08:17you said yes do you remember saying that
2:08:19I might have but that's not what I meant
2:08:22Well ma'am you did say it didn't you
2:08:25I don't know and in fact I followed It
2:08:28Up by saying and you didn't seek medical
2:08:30care do you remember me asking that
2:08:34I thought you meant about me no do you
2:08:36remember me asking you that yes and do
2:08:39you remember that you said well not
2:08:41professional medical care do you
2:08:42remember that
2:08:43I was referring to the splint Travis
2:08:45made for my family I know that that's
2:08:47what you're telling me now but the line
2:08:50of questioning before involved the
2:08:52shooting that's what we were talking
2:08:53about right
2:08:56Mr Alexander was dead after that wasn't
2:09:00he
2:09:02um well not immediately after that no no
2:09:06he grabbed the knife that you stabbed
2:09:08him with right so he wasn't dead
2:09:10immediately after that right
2:09:13yeah
2:09:14and she said she hasn't remembered
2:09:16reset your question
2:09:19and we're talking about
2:09:21Mr Alexander an individual that you just
2:09:24shot right so it's it's not like we're
2:09:26talking about him providing any medical
2:09:28care for you are we
2:09:30that's right you're the person who has
2:09:33come in here at least
2:09:35we know that you've indicated that you
2:09:37did kill Mr Alexander correct
2:09:39yes the only incident where this could
2:09:42have happened was on June 4th of 2008
2:09:44right yes so this issue of him providing
2:09:47a splint or splinting your finger really
2:09:50doesn't have anything to do with June
2:09:514th of 2008 does it you know and you did
2:09:55say
2:09:56that the only injury you received was to
2:09:58your left ring finger on June 4th of
2:10:012008 right I didn't say that well yes
2:10:05you did and in fact no I didn't use the
2:10:07word visible injuries do you remember
2:10:08using that term yes I do argumentative
2:10:10she said that it's not what she said and
2:10:13do you remember that you also indicated
2:10:15well I may have had some injuries to my
2:10:17head right yes
2:10:19those were the only injuries that you
2:10:22sustained on June 4th of 2008 and you
2:10:25remember I asked you about that and you
2:10:26said yes
2:10:28that's not how I understood your
2:10:30question
2:10:35so then he's down there
2:10:39and he's to your right
2:10:42what happens then
2:10:45I break away from him and he screams
2:10:47I'll [ __ ] kill you [ __ ]
2:10:49so then even though you've already shot
2:10:51him he's been grabbing at you he does
2:10:54say I'll [ __ ] kill your [ __ ] right I
2:10:56don't think he said aisle I just
2:10:57remember that as those words are in my
2:10:59head he may have said that may have not
2:11:00told me what are the words let's let's
2:11:03let's get hear the words one more time
2:11:04so we can get them right I heard him say
2:11:07[ __ ] kill you [ __ ] aren't these the
2:11:10same words that
2:11:11you indicated that you heard when he was
2:11:13doing his pirouette outside of the
2:11:17shower [ __ ] kill you [ __ ] aren't
2:11:19they the same words
2:11:21um I don't think they were the same he
2:11:23was still screaming at me though when he
2:11:24was coming out so there was just so that
2:11:26we're clear what did he say as he's
2:11:28getting out of the shower
2:11:30as he's getting out of the shower he
2:11:31called me a [ __ ] idiot and said a
2:11:33[ __ ] five-year-old can hold a camera
2:11:35better than you
2:11:37but then when he's down after being shot
2:11:40he says [ __ ] kill your [ __ ] right
2:11:42after I broke away from him right after
2:11:44he screamed it out when he couldn't grab
2:11:46me anymore he's trying to grab you and
2:11:49he's still on the floor but you're able
2:11:50to get away right yes I thought you said
2:11:53that he was this really strong remember
2:11:56when you had the conversation with
2:11:57Detective floors and you told him well
2:11:59he's a really strong guy he's a wrestler
2:12:01in high school do you remember saying
2:12:03that yes you're saying that you're able
2:12:05to get away from this man who's a
2:12:07wrestler in high school who's very
2:12:08strong
2:12:09on the ground that's what you're saying
2:12:11right yes
2:12:14and then what do you do
2:12:18I don't really remember I just remember
2:12:21I don't remember anything at that point
2:12:23so I would be speculating so you don't
2:12:26remember a single solitary thing after
2:12:27that right
2:12:31there are a few little pieces that have
2:12:33come back since but not immediately
2:12:34after I don't remember okay what what is
2:12:36it that the pieces that have come back
2:12:39tell me what you remember about this
2:12:41whatever pieces you remember
2:12:44um
2:12:49at one point I remember dropping the
2:12:50knife and screaming
2:12:52but that's something that has come to
2:12:54you since right
2:12:55since yes
2:12:57all right what else
2:13:00um
2:13:02the others are more vague so I'm not
2:13:04sure
2:13:06if they're vague then we don't want to
2:13:07hear them where were you standing when
2:13:10you have this recollection of dropping
2:13:11the knife and screaming
2:13:14exact position but I was in the bathroom
2:13:16because it hit tile
2:13:19and that's all that you remember with
2:13:22regard to this particular
2:13:25eat that correct
2:13:30um from that point to that point yes
2:13:33judged by reapproach
2:13:37man with regard to the killing on June
2:13:404th of 2008 it was you that committed
2:13:43that hurt that that killed Travis
2:13:46Alexander correct yes nobody else was
2:13:48involved right
2:13:50that's correct and in terms of the
2:13:53we don't need any finger any more than
2:13:55the fingerprint evidence that we have
2:13:56you're you're not disputing that the
2:13:58fingerprint evidence indicates that you
2:14:00were there right
2:14:01that's right same thing with the DNA
2:14:03evidence it was you that was there right
2:14:04yes
2:14:06ma'am after
2:14:08this shot rang out you said that you
2:14:12went into a fog right
2:14:15um yes I began to go things get foggy
2:14:18after that point
2:14:19so with regard to the camera can you
2:14:22tell us what happened to the camera
2:14:26I don't remember what I did with the
2:14:27camera you acknowledge though that
2:14:30immediately prior to the what you
2:14:33describe as the killing the camera was
2:14:36right here in this area next to the tub
2:14:38correct
2:14:39um that's the last place I grew see I
2:14:42saw it rolling I don't know if it got
2:14:44kicked around or what I don't know
2:14:46but you acknowledge though that
2:14:49take a look at the exhibit
2:14:52162.
2:14:58first let's look at the
2:15:04date and time
2:15:11you acknowledge that this says or was
2:15:13taken on June 4th 2008 at 5 32 16
2:15:17correct yes
2:15:19what time was your understanding that
2:15:22the roommates
2:15:23got home
2:15:25I didn't know
2:15:26so you did they you know did you even
2:15:29know if they were there
2:15:32um
2:15:34I don't remember if they were there or
2:15:36not at that time well do you remember
2:15:39that one of the things that you told us
2:15:40on direct examination was that when
2:15:43there were roommates the two of you had
2:15:45to be careful in your sexual
2:15:49um
2:15:50Tris
2:15:51so that as not to
2:15:54[Music]
2:15:54um
2:15:55not awakened but let the others know
2:15:57what was going on do you remember
2:15:59telling us that that's correct so if
2:16:02this was going on on that day it would
2:16:05be fair to say based on what you believe
2:16:07that they were not home right
2:16:10this part of the day yes this part no I
2:16:13don't think that would have made a
2:16:14difference
2:16:16what I'm saying though is during when
2:16:18this happened you believed that there
2:16:20were no roommates there correct
2:16:22I don't know what time they got home
2:16:26I don't know
2:16:29and
2:16:32you are
2:16:33wearing
2:16:34socks right yes and there is what
2:16:39appears to be a zipper
2:16:41on that foot correct yes
2:16:44if we look at this further
2:16:48to orient ourselves
2:16:51this is Mr Alexander's head correct yes
2:16:55blood right there right yes
2:16:58and that's his foot correct yes and
2:17:01given the way that the lights are in
2:17:03this particular photograph
2:17:06the bathroom
2:17:08is in this direction correct yes
2:17:17and you would agree with me that if the
2:17:21camera
2:17:23in exhibit 249
2:17:26was last seen here
2:17:29do you see that yes
2:17:34and things happen
2:17:36the way you say they happened we now
2:17:39have this photograph
2:17:40that you were the one that moved that
2:17:44camera right
2:17:47um it could have been us both I don't
2:17:49know remember moving it
2:17:51well
2:17:52based on what you tell us
2:17:55there's this gunshot that rings out
2:17:56right yes and then you don't remember
2:17:58anything right I didn't say that I said
2:18:01it got foggy after that point the point
2:18:03where I can't remember anything is after
2:18:05he said
2:18:06left rethreat in my life what's that
2:18:09after he threatened my life well what is
2:18:11it that he said [ __ ] kill you [ __ ]
2:18:13so after that after [ __ ] kill you
2:18:15[ __ ] you don't remember anything else
2:18:16right
2:18:18no
2:18:19no except the one thing that I described
2:18:21right but you do remember though that as
2:18:24you ran down this hallway
2:18:26you were not carrying the camera with
2:18:29you right
2:18:31um
2:18:33no not the first time I ran of course
2:18:36not you were concerned for your life you
2:18:38told us right yes and you told us that
2:18:40the camera landed next to the top right
2:18:43yes and so if this
2:18:47photograph was snapped at the time that
2:18:49we've agreed that it snapped
2:18:51and the camera the last time you see it
2:18:54is next to the tub
2:18:56and then you describe what happens that
2:18:58Mr Alexander is down next to the tub
2:19:03then it was you that moved that camera
2:19:06right
2:19:13with regard to Mr Alexander ma'am
2:19:17the last memory that you have of him
2:19:20is that he was down on the ground
2:19:22correct
2:19:25yes and the last memory that you have of
2:19:28him is after you shot him right
2:19:32yes you never saw him walking around did
2:19:36you
2:19:37no I didn't
2:19:39and so if you didn't assuming he didn't
2:19:41get up and walk around and assuming you
2:19:44did shoot him
2:19:46and assuming that the camera is where
2:19:48you told us that it was
2:19:50then this camera to take this Photograph
2:19:53had to be moved right
2:19:58um yeah yeah it had to be moved and you
2:20:00would acknowledge that you did the movie
2:20:02right direction
2:20:04she said over and over again she doesn't
2:20:06remember overall do the answer only
2:20:09under that theory that well you see him
2:20:12right there ma'am Mr Alexander yes no
2:20:16take a look at it I've already seen it
2:20:18all right are you saying that in the
2:20:20condition that Mr Alexander is in
2:20:22exhibit number 162.
2:20:25and you were there it's your opinion
2:20:27that he in that condition could move the
2:20:29camera
2:20:31I'm not saying that so you did move the
2:20:34camera right again objection
2:20:36argumentative she's already said she
2:20:38doesn't know what happened afterwards
2:20:40overruled I don't know and that camera
2:20:44ended up as we now know in a washing
2:20:46machine right you know that right yes
2:20:49you have this
2:20:52horrible incident that happens upstairs
2:20:56and the camera is being used for to
2:20:59photograph Mr Alexander right
2:21:01in the shower yes right and then the
2:21:04cameras drop and then we see the
2:21:06photographs here
2:21:08you would acknowledge then ma'am that
2:21:10under those sort of facts it was you who
2:21:12put that camera in the washing machine
2:21:15yes because I don't remember but that
2:21:18would be logical sure because Mr
2:21:20Alexander never left
2:21:23the upstairs bathroom right
2:21:26I think that's right and you would
2:21:29acknowledge ma'am that
2:21:30if you did that
2:21:34it would be an indication from you
2:21:37at least you're saying that you're in a
2:21:38fog and that you don't remember but it
2:21:40would be certainly an indication of your
2:21:42mental state back then that you picked
2:21:45up that camera and put it in the washing
2:21:47machine wouldn't it yes and it would be
2:21:50an indication ma'am that you knew what
2:21:53happened
2:21:56um yes I guess why it went in the
2:21:59washing machine
2:22:00and ma'am we know that these were this
2:22:03Photograph was deleted from the camera
2:22:07correct correct we know that he's dead
2:22:10after this right
2:22:13um
2:22:14after this yes
2:22:16and we know as you've just told us that
2:22:18there was nobody else there that no
2:22:19roommates were there right yes so if
2:22:23he's dead no roommates are there this
2:22:26photograph is snapped
2:22:28and it's deleted you're the one that
2:22:31deleted it aren't you
2:22:33that would make sense I don't remember
2:22:34deleting it I'm not asking you if you
2:22:36remember now I'm not asking that at all
2:22:39I'm asking you given the circumstances
2:22:42that we have here you're the one that
2:22:44deleted it right
2:22:45I would have to say yes and in fact
2:22:49deleting something is not a once giving
2:22:52your expertise in cameras and
2:22:54photography deleting something is not a
2:22:57one-step process right that's correct
2:22:59and you were not familiar with this
2:23:02camera were you
2:23:04um not prior to June 4th correct
2:23:07and so what this required you to do is
2:23:12and I understand that you're going to
2:23:13say that you don't remember I'm not
2:23:15asking that but I
2:23:16wouldn't you acknowledge then that it
2:23:19took some mechanical movement and
2:23:22thinking and mechanical movement I mean
2:23:24fingers
2:23:25and some thought process on your part in
2:23:30order to delete these images right
2:23:34I would agree with that
2:23:37and you would agree that the
2:23:41deleting these
2:23:44items from the
2:23:47camera
2:23:49was not in any way necessary
2:23:53for you
2:23:55to do prior to leaving Mr Alexander's
2:23:59home
2:24:00I don't understand what you mean well
2:24:03there is nothing
2:24:05you acknowledge that there is nothing
2:24:07that was pressing
2:24:11about or threatening about the camera
2:24:14that required you to delete these
2:24:17images right
2:24:22um I don't know what you mean by
2:24:24threatening in order for you to delete
2:24:26them ma'am you have to view them don't
2:24:29you yes and
2:24:32if you view them then the decision is
2:24:35made and I know you're going to say I
2:24:36don't remember but you acknowledge then
2:24:37that a decision is made
2:24:39by you to delete this Photograph right
2:24:42there must have been yes and you would
2:24:45agree then that if the police don't find
2:24:48this Photograph that would be beneficial
2:24:50to you wouldn't it in terms of your
2:24:53culpability involving Mr Alexander's
2:24:56death
2:24:57I would not agree with that okay
2:25:01exhibit number one six so you think this
2:25:04helps you in your case I don't agree
2:25:07with that either
2:25:08163
2:25:13there are the
2:25:15that's the floorboard would you agree
2:25:17yes
2:25:18and this is the hallway that you claim
2:25:21that you ran down correct yes that's the
2:25:24one and that would mean that this up
2:25:26here would be Mr Alexander correct yes
2:25:30and that reddish substance would be
2:25:32blood right yes
2:25:34and again if we apply the same analysis
2:25:37that we did before you would acknowledge
2:25:39that the person who deleted this
2:25:42photograph was you
2:25:46yeah I guess
2:25:49there were other things that were done
2:25:51to the scene
2:25:57let's take a look at exhibit number 67
2:26:01followed by exhibit 68.
2:26:06you see 67
2:26:10yes
2:26:12there is
2:26:14blood there isn't there man yes that's
2:26:17not your blood right
2:26:19I don't think my blood is there that
2:26:22would be Mr Alexander's blood right
2:26:24yes and you would agree that to the
2:26:27right of that it appears that there is a
2:26:31more if you will different pattern in
2:26:33other words the pattern on the right is
2:26:35not as dark as the one on the left right
2:26:39um yes and ma'am you would agree that if
2:26:42you if you had socks on
2:26:44and which you we know that you were dead
2:26:47and you were walking through blood
2:26:50that this would be the kind of
2:26:53pattern
2:26:55that your socks would leave right
2:26:57I don't know
2:27:00of course wearing socks at that time
2:27:03a world I'm not sure
2:27:06take a look at exhibit 130.
2:27:12you see that yes would you agree then
2:27:15that we've seen the photograph and
2:27:17that's exhibit number
2:27:21162.
2:27:22and if we look at take this is exhibit
2:27:25162. do you see it yes
2:27:30and you told us that to this end over
2:27:33here
2:27:34is the bathroom
2:27:35over here do you see that yes
2:27:41and if we look at this
2:27:44exhibit which is
2:27:46130
2:27:49you would agree that the bathroom is in
2:27:51this direction correct yes so that if
2:27:53his foot that we were looking at would
2:27:55be right about where my pen is or right
2:27:58in front of that door right yes and the
2:28:00door that's behind it is the door that
2:28:02you claim was the door that he was
2:28:03banging his head on back on August 7th
2:28:06of 2000 I'm sorry in August of 2007
2:28:08right yes
2:28:10and you would agree ma'am that
2:28:14if this is the pattern that we have here
2:28:19and his head is in this direction as we
2:28:22see it in the picture
2:28:24then
2:28:26because of the way the blood is Flowing
2:28:28down this is where his head was resting
2:28:30right here
2:28:32I think I don't know I guess
2:28:35he would not be the person that would be
2:28:38leaving
2:28:39these Marks here to the right would he
2:28:42because he wasn't standing was he
2:28:44objection she's sorry said she has no
2:28:46memory it would call for speculation
2:28:49State 162 is he standing there ma'am no
2:28:55would you acknowledge that based on
2:28:57everything that you know he's not going
2:28:58to stand after that
2:29:03I would
2:29:05I would be very inclined to agree with
2:29:07that
2:29:09you told this man that
2:29:11there was just this
2:29:13shooting
2:29:14when he was coming at you from the
2:29:17bathroom right
2:29:18yes I'm sorry from the closet my mistake
2:29:21yes and that as he came at you and you
2:29:24showed us the pose
2:29:25and then according to you the shooting
2:29:28happened right yes
2:29:31you would agree ma'am that a shooting
2:29:33where it occurred is not near
2:29:38what we are what is pictured in exhibit
2:29:4198 correct
2:29:44yes you weren't bleeding even though you
2:29:46said that you had an injury to your left
2:29:49ring finger you were bleeding that
2:29:51profusely to put all this Blood here
2:29:53right
2:29:56um
2:29:57well my left ring finger wasn't bleeding
2:30:00at all so so the answer is no that's
2:30:02correct that is not your blood right
2:30:06no I don't think it is
2:30:08and again based on what we know what you
2:30:12know about this case and based on the
2:30:13fact that you acknowledge you've done
2:30:16the shooting and acknowledging that that
2:30:18was your foot in this photograph
2:30:21you would have to agree
2:30:24that a person would have to be standing
2:30:26or Mr Alexander would have to be
2:30:28standing
2:30:29for that blood to be placed there right
2:30:36I would think
2:30:39yes I would think that
2:30:51man one of the things that um
2:30:54happened or that was found on the body
2:30:57was a glass
2:31:00are you aware of that
2:31:02yes now
2:31:06before the murder there was no glass up
2:31:08in the bathroom right
2:31:12there was it was under the sink it was
2:31:15out of the sink then right yeah
2:31:17so then you would agree that if it was
2:31:18under the sink
2:31:21before the murder
2:31:23and it was found on top of him after the
2:31:26murder you would agree that you were the
2:31:29person
2:31:30you would acknowledge that you were the
2:31:32person that went underneath the sink
2:31:34got the glass
2:31:36correct
2:31:38I would acknowledge that and you would
2:31:40acknowledge that you use that glass
2:31:42to try to clean up
2:31:44or throw it on the floor of that
2:31:48bathroom
2:31:50I don't know what I did with it if there
2:31:53were lots of water
2:31:55in the bathroom after The Killing
2:31:59for example if you take a look at
2:32:01exhibit number 118
2:32:03do you see that
2:32:04water Marks here yes
2:32:07you would acknowledge that these
2:32:10watermarks
2:32:12in red colored blood or what appears to
2:32:15be blood
2:32:17you would acknowledge that
2:32:19you're the person that
2:32:21created those marks correct yes and you
2:32:26would also acknowledge ma'am that
2:32:32these reddish spots here are Mr
2:32:34Alexander's blood right yes which would
2:32:37indicate that he was in that area
2:32:39bleeding correct
2:32:42yes
2:32:45and exhibit 125
2:32:49shows us the relationship between
2:32:52the closet
2:32:54to the right correct
2:32:57yes
2:32:58the closet to the left correct yes
2:33:01[Music]
2:33:02yes and the
2:33:05end of the hallway into the bedroom
2:33:07right yes and ma'am you would agree if
2:33:11we've now seen
2:33:13that there was
2:33:21staining 128
2:33:24here do you see that
2:33:26and it's concentrated there you see that
2:33:28yes
2:33:29and we've heard that it was nowhere else
2:33:32in the top full from that bedroom
2:33:36and we also know that
2:33:39you were the only one walking around in
2:33:41162 wearing socks you see that yes you
2:33:46would acknowledge ma'am that
2:33:48prior to walking out
2:33:52from here
2:33:54and leaving you would acknowledge that
2:33:57you took those socks off correct I don't
2:34:01know well you would acknowledge that
2:34:03there is no blood anywhere else other
2:34:06than in this area here you see that
2:34:08yes
2:34:09so you would acknowledge that if you did
2:34:11have blood on your socks and there was
2:34:15water on the floor and you were walking
2:34:17in it you would acknowledge that
2:34:21there may be based on whatever
2:34:24experience you have there may be other
2:34:26blood throughout wherever it was that
2:34:29you stepped objections
2:34:31for speculation
2:34:34overall to me answer
2:34:36um
2:34:40can you please repeat that you would
2:34:42acknowledge that you took your socks off
2:34:44before you walked into the bedroom
2:34:47because you knew
2:34:49I'm not saying that you remember it
2:34:51because you knew
2:34:53that they had blood on them and you
2:34:55didn't want to get the rest of the
2:34:57bedroom dirty
2:34:59relation she said she doesn't remember
2:35:01even removing her socks sustained
2:35:05man
2:35:08did you did leave the house though
2:35:10didn't you
2:35:11yes you would acknowledge that you left
2:35:15right yes and you would acknowledge that
2:35:18there is no record anywhere in Arizona
2:35:21have you ever being in Arizona other
2:35:24than this killing right
2:35:26no I disagree with that well are there
2:35:29receipts for example from the places
2:35:31that you filled up with gas
2:35:34one time there would have been
2:35:35surveillance video but no you think
2:35:37there was surveillance video okay
2:35:39um
2:35:41is it a true man that as you drove out
2:35:43of Arizona one of the things that you
2:35:46did was that you used the gasoline in
2:35:49those three cans to fill out to put in
2:35:53your
2:35:54cars
2:35:56a world
2:35:59um will you repeat that I'm sorry
2:36:02you would acknowledge man that in
2:36:04Arizona you filled up the car
2:36:08from the gas the three gas cans that
2:36:12were in your possession filled with gas
2:36:14I didn't have three
2:36:16guns in my possession
2:36:17do you remember in Pasadena
2:36:19that there were three separate
2:36:22transactions do you remember that yes
2:36:24there was one at the pump do you
2:36:26remember that yes there was also one
2:36:30inside the store if you will do you
2:36:33remember that one yes for approximately
2:36:3510 gallons you remember that right yes
2:36:37and then there was another transaction
2:36:39inside the store you acknowledge that
2:36:42right
2:36:43yeah that was the two gallons or
2:36:45something right 2.7 uh gallons right yes
2:36:49there were three transactions in
2:36:52Pasadena correct yes you acknowledge
2:36:55that there are two gas cans that Mr
2:36:57Brewer gave you correct yes and you
2:36:59acknowledged that you bought one gas can
2:37:01from Walmart right yes I understand that
2:37:04you say that you returned it but you did
2:37:06have at least at some point you
2:37:08acknowledge have three gas cans right
2:37:11yes in Salinas I did pardon and Salinas
2:37:14I did
2:37:15and so the gas that you had in those gas
2:37:19cans you placed in your car in Arizona
2:37:22right
2:37:24no I didn't need to do that well ma'am
2:37:28do you remember that you told us on
2:37:30direct examination that
2:37:32the next time that you could remember
2:37:35anything was when you were way out in
2:37:38the middle of the desert that's correct
2:37:40and do you remember the testimony of
2:37:42detective Larry Gladys who indicated
2:37:44that the phone call to Mr Alexander's
2:37:47telephone was 57 miles north of Kingman
2:37:50do you remember that
2:37:52um
2:37:53no but okay I will assume you said that
2:37:55but you do remember that you testified
2:37:58that you were out in the middle of the
2:38:00desert right
2:38:02yes I do and do you remember that you
2:38:04said that you stopped right
2:38:07yes and do you remember that you said
2:38:10Well then well I got rid of the gun
2:38:12right yes so you would acknowledge ma'am
2:38:15that even though immediately after this
2:38:19killing happened you say you went into a
2:38:22fog
2:38:23you remember saying that
2:38:26uh it was in a fog yes you were in a fog
2:38:29right and one of the things that we know
2:38:32from your own admission was that there
2:38:34was a gun that was involved right
2:38:36yes that's what you used to shooting
2:38:38right yes and so this gun you tell us
2:38:43you took it out
2:38:46to the desert didn't you
2:38:48yes you were the one that removed it
2:38:51from the house right yes if you weren't
2:38:55didn't know what was going on if you
2:38:58were in a fog man
2:39:00which means that you don't know the
2:39:03status of your current events or the
2:39:05status of your
2:39:07of what's going on
2:39:11would you agree
2:39:13that there would be no need to take the
2:39:16gun if you were unaware of your status I
2:39:19would not agree with that
2:39:21even though you're in a fog
2:39:24you there's a decision a knowing
2:39:27decision a voluntary movement that is
2:39:29made to take the gun on your part right
2:39:33I think you're getting fog confused my
2:39:35memory was in a fog I don't remember
2:39:37what happened after those things I'm not
2:39:39asking you if you remember that please
2:39:41that's not what I'm asking I'm asking
2:39:43whether you acknowledge that you removed
2:39:46the gun from the crime scene
2:39:50yes and you do acknowledge that
2:39:54if you're in a fog you're in a fog about
2:39:57everything not just certain specific
2:40:00things right I don't know well it's your
2:40:04fog
2:40:07is that a question yes it is a question
2:40:09is it what is it it's your fog isn't it
2:40:12yes
2:40:13and with regard to this particular fog
2:40:16that you are in
2:40:20why would you even
2:40:22think
2:40:23of taking the gun
2:40:26unless you really knew what was going on
2:40:34I could only speculate because I don't
2:40:35remember
2:40:38if you were in a fog and you hadn't
2:40:41didn't know what you were doing why take
2:40:44the gun man
2:40:47documentative a world
2:40:50I don't remember
2:40:52taking the gun I remember throwing the
2:40:54gun all right
2:40:56throwing the gun
2:40:57if you remember throwing the gun you
2:41:00remembered what the gun came from don't
2:41:02you
2:41:04I recognized it as Travis's gun yes I
2:41:07know you say that it's Travis's gun but
2:41:10shortly before embarking on this trip to
2:41:14Mesa Arizona on May 28th of 2008 your
2:41:17grandfather had a 25 caliber gun taken
2:41:20during a burglary right yes and you knew
2:41:24about that right I found out after I got
2:41:27back into town
2:41:28the answer is yes you did no didn't you
2:41:32yes afterward you did know on May 28th
2:41:36of 2008 that there was a burglary at
2:41:37your grandfather's house correct yes
2:41:40and you're telling us that on June
2:41:44fourth or after the murder you stop at
2:41:47the side of the road right
2:41:51yes and according to you you have one of
2:41:54the
2:41:55implements that was used to kill Mr
2:41:58Alexander correct yes if you didn't
2:42:01think that you had done anything wrong
2:42:05and you were in this fog that you
2:42:08weren't thinking
2:42:10why get rid of it
2:42:12why get rid of it
2:42:15I never said I didn't think I'd done any
2:42:17didn't do anything wrong oh so you
2:42:20acknowledge then that you believe that
2:42:23you did something wrong with regard to
2:42:24Mr Alexander then right
2:42:27I believe there's something yesterday
2:42:28yes or no ma'am
2:42:31um
2:42:32I'm not how did you word that again
2:42:35do you believe that you did something
2:42:37wrong with regard to Mr Alexander
2:42:41yes
2:42:42and that belief
2:42:46that you had was with you on the side of
2:42:49the road
2:42:51to the point that you got rid of the gun
2:42:52right
2:42:55well I just threw it so yeah you did get
2:42:58rid of the gun right
2:43:00yes and this knowing that you had done
2:43:05something wrong
2:43:07was preceded
2:43:10by your removing the gun from the crime
2:43:12scene
2:43:15right yes so you would agree then that
2:43:19at the crime scene
2:43:21you knew that what you had done was
2:43:24wrong correct
2:43:28I would say that would be accurate but I
2:43:30don't remember
2:43:31and you were trying to alter the crime
2:43:33scene weren't you it appears that way
2:43:36well no based on what you know
2:43:39there was an altering of the crime scene
2:43:41wasn't that yes the gun was taken right
2:43:46yes and we know that you took it right
2:43:50yes we also know that uh there was no
2:43:54knife that was found up
2:43:57in the bathroom area right yes
2:44:01so we know that
2:44:03you took it right
2:44:05I don't remember having the knife at all
2:44:07afterwards
2:44:09but there was no knife up there right
2:44:12no I haven't heard any testimony about
2:44:15that you would acknowledge man that
2:44:22is it
2:44:24193
2:44:28that Mr Alexander was staffed you would
2:44:30acknowledge that right
2:44:35get
2:44:42and you would acknowledge that that
2:44:43stabbing was with the knife right
2:44:46yes
2:44:47and according to your version of events
2:44:50you would acknowledge that that stabbing
2:44:52was after the shooting according to you
2:44:53right
2:44:59yeah I don't yes I don't remember I'm
2:45:03I'm not asking you if you remember man
2:45:05I'm asking if you acknowledge that it
2:45:07would be you that did it correct
2:45:11yes and you would acknowledge that a lot
2:45:15of the stabbed ones and if you want we
2:45:17can count them together including the
2:45:19ones to the Head
2:45:20or to the back of the head and to the
2:45:23back of the Torso correct
2:45:26[Music]
2:45:30would you like to take a look at the
2:45:32photograph no we've
2:45:34so if he is being stabbed in the back
2:45:40would you acknowledge at that point that
2:45:42he's no threat to you
2:45:43right he actually called speculation
2:45:46Overworld
2:45:50I don't know well if he's already been
2:45:53shot according to you and he's facing
2:45:55away from you how could he have possibly
2:45:57beat any threat to you
2:46:02foreign
2:46:06I could only guess I don't know what
2:46:09you're asking me
2:46:11with regard to the you were here when
2:46:14the medical examiner testified about the
2:46:15wound to the throat do you remember that
2:46:18yes
2:46:20with regard to that wound ma'am
2:46:23you would acknowledge that that was in
2:46:25terms of the stab wounds you would
2:46:28acknowledge that that was the last wound
2:46:30in the sequence of events
2:46:33just remember
2:46:36overall that wasn't she acknowledge the
2:46:39sequence of the steps that she doesn't
2:46:40know what they when doesn't have any
2:46:42memory of them that wasn't the question
2:46:46Overworld do you may answer the question
2:46:49are you talking about his testimony
2:46:52yes
2:46:54I disagree with the secrets of events
2:46:58would you agree that you're the person
2:47:01who actually slid Mr Alexander's throat
2:47:04from ear to ear
2:47:08foreign
2:47:09yes
2:47:13would you also agree that you're the
2:47:15individual that stabbed him
2:47:18in the upper torso
2:47:24yes
2:47:27and you're doing all of this to in the
2:47:30according to your
2:47:31version of events
2:47:33[Music]
2:47:34this to this individual
2:47:36dirt you have already shot it right
2:47:39laughs
2:47:41yes
2:47:45correct
2:47:47I believe so well no you remember
2:47:50previously talking to us about how he
2:47:53was coming at you and he was this
2:47:54horrible man with his mean face do you
2:47:56remember telling me that
2:47:58yes I didn't say he was horrible okay
2:48:03for correcting me but do you remember
2:48:05telling us that he was a mean man
2:48:09not today
2:48:11well previously previously you did say
2:48:13that he was a mean man correct I think I
2:48:15did yes
2:48:16and on this particular occasion you told
2:48:19us that he was
2:48:20cursing at you right yes and that he
2:48:24threw you down right
2:48:27yes but he chased you down right
2:48:31yes
2:48:33and this is the individual that you shot
2:48:36first right
2:48:37I didn't know if I shot him I just
2:48:39figured that right off
2:48:41foreign
2:48:46that's something that you did here
2:48:48correct yes
2:48:52ma'am one of the things that we also
2:48:55know is that
2:48:59there was this rope that was involved
2:49:01earlier in the evening or in the day at
2:49:04one o'clock do you remember telling us
2:49:05about that about 1 30
2:49:07yes and it involved this sexual
2:49:10interlude with you and Mr Alexander
2:49:12right yes and you told us that it went
2:49:14behind the headboard
2:49:18place
2:49:20the police did not find a roaster
2:49:24correct
2:49:25uh yes
2:49:28you took that rope didn't you yes
2:49:32why would you take that rope man if you
2:49:35were in the fog I don't know
2:49:38I don't remember taking it
2:49:40the Rope according to you didn't have
2:49:43anything to do with the killing did it
2:49:46know not that I remember well
2:49:52but you acknowledge that
2:49:54there was this rope that was taken right
2:49:57yes don't you also acknowledge that you
2:50:00were the one to threw it away
2:50:02yes so then you would acknowledge that
2:50:05you're the person that took it right
2:50:07um yes and even though you were in this
2:50:10fog as you call it
2:50:12you knew as you're walking in this fog
2:50:15to go looking around for this particular
2:50:17rope as you say right
2:50:22um I don't know well you did say that
2:50:25you did take it right
2:50:28yes and in fact you remember where you
2:50:31threw it away right
2:50:34um
2:50:35I think it was in a dumpster
2:50:37right you said you threw it away in a
2:50:39dumpster right
2:50:40yeah
2:50:43well other than that it would show that
2:50:46you had been there ma'am
2:50:48why take the rope and then get rid of it
2:50:52I don't know maybe for that very reason
2:50:54I don't know
2:50:56so you did take the Rope then
2:50:59you also changed clothing right
2:51:02um
2:51:03I think I did I don't
2:51:05think well you said that you pulled off
2:51:07the side of the road in the desert right
2:51:08yes and that you said that you went to
2:51:11the trunk of the car right
2:51:14isn't it true remember that that's where
2:51:16you claim to have the gas cans
2:51:18that's where they were party I guess
2:51:21that's where they were and so the gas
2:51:23cans and the gas were in the back with
2:51:25the water right yes case of water in my
2:51:28suitcase and you found that you had some
2:51:32blood on you correct yes
2:51:35and back then that was at the time that
2:51:37there was this stop or security
2:51:39checkpoint
2:51:41before Hoover Dam right
2:51:43I pulled over before that right you were
2:51:47not so much in a thought that you didn't
2:51:49know
2:51:50that the checkpoint existed right
2:51:54I did not know that the checkpoint
2:51:56existed well you just told me that was
2:51:59when the checkpoint point was there do
2:52:01you remember telling me that just now I
2:52:03came to know this existence when I drove
2:52:05up to it or when there was a sign or
2:52:07something but conveniently or to your
2:52:11advantage
2:52:12you stop the car before you got to the
2:52:15checkpoint right
2:52:17a long time before the checkpoint when I
2:52:20called Ryan or texted somebody or Leslie
2:52:22or someone so the answer is yes correct
2:52:25yes and one of the things that you did
2:52:28was that you got the water from the
2:52:31trunk right
2:52:34um yeah
2:52:35you cleaned your hands right yes and you
2:52:40um change your socks or put some shoes
2:52:42on correct
2:52:46um
2:52:47I put socks and shoes on
2:52:50right and you took the clothes the
2:52:52bloody clothes that you had on you took
2:52:54those off right
2:52:57um
2:52:57I think I did well do you remember
2:53:00testifying that you threw them away
2:53:02along with the gun
2:53:05I don't recall throwing my clothes out
2:53:06in the desert but but you did change in
2:53:10anticipation of the checkpoint right
2:53:13I didn't know there was a checkpoint
2:53:14until I reached it well
2:53:17you will acknowledge that this changing
2:53:20and washing of hands occurred before you
2:53:23got to the checkpoint whether you knew
2:53:25or not that the checkpoint was there
2:53:28okay
2:53:29and you would agree that it was to your
2:53:32advantage to be
2:53:36to have clean hands and clothing that is
2:53:39not soiled with blood if you're going to
2:53:40go through a checkpoint correct
2:53:44that was in my line of thinking but I
2:53:46would agree with what you said
2:53:48and then you are making some calls at
2:53:51that time aren't you prior to the
2:53:53checkpoint yes you have the
2:53:57I guess the um ability to say I'm going
2:54:00to look through the car to see if I can
2:54:03find my charger right
2:54:05um
2:54:07I wasn't looking for my charger but I
2:54:09looked through the car you were looking
2:54:11through the car then when you pulled
2:54:13over right yes and when you pulled over
2:54:16you found a charger according to you
2:54:18underneath the seat right yes and that
2:54:21allowed you to make some telephone calls
2:54:23right
2:54:25not right away because there was no
2:54:27reception right but you were you made
2:54:29some telephone calls before you reached
2:54:31the Arizona Nevada border right yes I
2:54:35turned my phone on and it just took a
2:54:37while to place a call because the car
2:54:39kept dropping it was before the
2:54:41checkpoint right yes and while you were
2:54:44drop were you driving at that time when
2:54:47the telephone was uh in a position to
2:54:51make calls out
2:54:54I believe yes so when it first came on
2:54:58so that it had the ability for calls to
2:55:00be made how far was it to the checkbook
2:55:05it felt like an hour felt like an hour
2:55:10do you know what Cayman is
2:55:15and when this telephone came on he
2:55:20started to make telephone calls right
2:55:23I attempted to I was only able to send I
2:55:26think text messages I realized that
2:55:28you're you're talking about text
2:55:30messages I'm telling I'm talking about
2:55:31telephone calls you were able to call
2:55:34Ryan Burns right yes and you were and
2:55:37even though you were in this fog that
2:55:40you're telling us about you were able to
2:55:42call him and make up a lie right
2:55:47um
2:55:48the fog that I was referring to relates
2:55:50to my memory
2:55:52right it relates to your memory so you
2:55:54you could have told Mr Burns that you
2:55:57were with Mr Alexander but you didn't
2:55:59right that's right instead you made up a
2:56:01story did you yes so this fog that
2:56:05you're talking about it wasn't so
2:56:08heavy
2:56:09that it prevented you
2:56:12from thinking
2:56:14and making up a lie
2:56:18um yes that's right you made up a lie
2:56:21that
2:56:23you had lost your charger right
2:56:27yes you made up a lie that you had gone
2:56:29to a gas station to get the charger
2:56:31right
2:56:32no that's not what I told you and so Mr
2:56:36Burns is full of crap when he tells us
2:56:38that
2:56:39no he just has a poor memory on some
2:56:42things
2:56:43and you know that based on you that one
2:56:48limited time that you met with him in
2:56:52West Jordan Utah correct no I know that
2:56:54from all his inconsistent statements to
2:56:56police but you only met him one time
2:57:00right
2:57:02um as as a romantic interest yes
2:57:05and so you also told them that you got
2:57:09lost right
2:57:11um
2:57:13I did say that
2:57:14that was also not true correct
2:57:19um well technically it was but not for
2:57:22the reason I was telling him no you
2:57:24actually ma'am you knew where you were
2:57:26going you were going over to Mr
2:57:27Alexander's house you knew that right no
2:57:29I got lost after leaving his house is
2:57:31what I mean so technically I did get
2:57:33lost but that's not why I told Ryan that
2:57:35even though there's this technicality
2:57:37are you telling us that when you told Mr
2:57:40Burns that you got lost that you were
2:57:43clear with them that the reason you got
2:57:45lost was that you'd killed Mr Alexander
2:57:47and you had been driving and you'd been
2:57:50lost that way or did you tell him that
2:57:52you got lost a different way
2:57:55I don't remember what way I think I
2:57:59certainly didn't
2:58:01tell him I got lost about Travis I told
2:58:03him I got lost right to deceive him
2:58:06so even in this fog
2:58:09you still have the ability to think
2:58:13to protect yourself right
2:58:17um yes
2:58:18and the other thing that you did is you
2:58:20attempted to call Matthew McCartney
2:58:22Right yes and you also attempted to call
2:58:24Mr Brewer right
2:58:28um I don't remember it might have
2:58:30one of the other things that you did and
2:58:33you know we were talking about
2:58:34protecting yourself one of the other
2:58:36things that you did is that
2:58:38you plant you
2:58:40immediately almost immediately when you
2:58:42say you come out of this fog one of the
2:58:44first things that you do is you try to
2:58:48divert attention away from you so that
2:58:51the police won't think that you had
2:58:53anything to do with this killing right
2:58:55yes and this fog that you were under
2:58:58that you're telling us about
2:59:00is not so deep that it stops you from
2:59:06fabricating or attempting to fabricate
2:59:08evidence right
2:59:11um
2:59:14that would be correct and it's not so
2:59:17deep that according to you you can stay
2:59:19on the telephone and know the prompt so
2:59:22that you can get the telephone message
2:59:24just right according to you right
2:59:27well just so that I wasn't crying in the
2:59:29message yes right
2:59:31but you want the message to be just so
2:59:34so that it sounds natural right
2:59:37yeah as natural as possible right and
2:59:40you want the great lens to do that
2:59:41according to you right yes and the
2:59:44reason that you want the Great Lakes to
2:59:45do that was that so that if there was
2:59:48any suspicion it wouldn't be drawn to
2:59:51you correct
2:59:53um not immediately that's that was the
2:59:55point yeah all right we wanted to
2:59:57the police to look elsewhere right
3:00:01um I guess well no you made the call
3:00:03knowing
3:00:05the reason why you made the call right
3:00:09if you really weren't
3:00:12wanting to
3:00:13fabricate evidence you would have just
3:00:15left whatever message instead of
3:00:16worrying about crying or whatever it was
3:00:18that you were worried about right
3:00:20that's right
3:00:22and so you called Mr Alexander and you
3:00:25left him a message right
3:00:27yes let's play it and hear what you said
3:00:31um
3:00:35I know Leslie called you so I already
3:00:37talked to her so uh you can call her
3:00:39back if you want but it's not necessary
3:00:42um my phone died so I wasn't getting
3:00:44back to anybody
3:00:45um and what I saw when I drove 100 miles
3:00:48in the wrong direction over 100 miles
3:00:49thank you very much so yeah remember New
3:00:52Mexico it was a lot like that only you
3:00:54were here to prevent me from going into
3:00:56the three digits so fun fun tell you all
3:00:58about that later also we were talking
3:01:01about when we were talking about your
3:01:02upcoming travels my way I was looking at
3:01:04the May calendar stuff sure I'm all
3:01:06confused Heather and I are going to see
3:01:09Othello on July 1st and we would love
3:01:11for you to kill a company us
3:01:15um I don't know when team freedom is a
3:01:16venue so but you know it's on the list
3:01:18so we could do
3:01:20um we could do Shakespeare Crater Lake
3:01:23in the coast so if you if you can make
3:01:24it if not we'll just see the question
3:01:25like but let me know and I will talk to
3:01:29you soon bye and this message to delete
3:01:31this message press seven to save it in
3:01:34the archives press nine through his
3:01:36message will be saved for 21.
3:01:40foreign
3:01:45[Music]
3:01:47on the message right yes
3:01:53or leaving the message for Mr Alexander
3:01:55indicating that you got lost fun fun
3:01:58right yes that's not true right
3:02:02that's not true uh asking him or talking
3:02:07to him about coming up to visit you up
3:02:10in Yreka and doing some of the things
3:02:12that you mentioned you know that's not
3:02:15true also right
3:02:19no that was our plan before June 4th
3:02:21that was the plan before June 4th but
3:02:24you're talking to him
3:02:25or leaving the message for him
3:02:28indicating that you know you're sorry
3:02:30you couldn't stop by but you guys can
3:02:33make up for it up in
3:02:35when it comes up to visit you right yes
3:02:38that's a lie
3:02:41yes and all of these lies man
3:02:45are meant for your benefit so that
3:02:48you can escape responsibility
3:02:54I don't see how that's to my benefit but
3:02:56I don't know what you mean by benefit
3:02:57but yeah so I could Escape whatever for
3:03:00the time being well not you keep saying
3:03:02for the time being you would have been
3:03:04happy to
3:03:06avoid the consequences for a lifetime
3:03:09wouldn't of you
3:03:12um I can't say I would be happy but
3:03:18foreign
3:03:20I
3:03:22I don't know how to answer that well you
3:03:26didn't go to the police
3:03:28with any of your information ever until
3:03:31they contacted you right
3:03:35um I think I initiated the contact oh so
3:03:38you're saying when you called the police
3:03:39you told them the truth
3:03:42no
3:03:44you would have been
3:03:46satisfied to avoid any responsibility
3:03:50for the killing of Mr Alexander wouldn't
3:03:53you
3:03:55I don't know if satisfied as the word
3:03:57probably relieved for the time you would
3:04:00have been relieved to avoid any
3:04:03consequences to the killing of Mr
3:04:05Alexander correct
3:04:10um that was that was my goal right that
3:04:14day and that's why you left this message
3:04:18that we heard in exhibit number 365
3:04:21right yes well that's part of the reason
3:04:24well that was the main reason wasn't it
3:04:27yes I mean there would be really no
3:04:30other reason to leave a dead man a
3:04:33telephone call would there
3:04:36I probably wouldn't have done that but
3:04:38Leslie said she um called this phone
3:04:40asking for me because I was missing and
3:04:42then I thought well maybe I should
3:04:46do something about that and that's why I
3:04:49did it so ultimately that was the main
3:04:51reason yes
3:04:53so you're looking to Leslie udy as the
3:04:56reason why you left that telephone call
3:04:58man no I said the other to avoid
3:05:01whatever was all the ultimate person you
3:05:04gave me a reason involving Leslie udy
3:05:06right now didn't you yes so you're about
3:05:08to leave him a message if she'd hadn't
3:05:10talked to her prior to leaving that
3:05:12message
3:05:13and then she said that um we've been
3:05:15calling and we called Travis and left a
3:05:18message and that kind of thing but she
3:05:19told you that ma'am not believing that
3:05:21he was still alive didn't she yes you
3:05:24knew better though
3:05:26um I think I did and so you didn't have
3:05:30to follow her advice right
3:05:32she didn't give me any advice well you
3:05:34didn't have to follow her words did you
3:05:40um I didn't have to but it reminded me
3:05:42of his cell phone and that's but I chose
3:05:46to do it I chose to not if you're going
3:05:48down the route saying Leslie made me do
3:05:50that I'm not saying that I'm not saying
3:05:52Leslie made you do it I'm saying you're
3:05:54looking again in a personal relationship
3:05:58in an issue that is absolutely yours to
3:06:01own you're looking for somebody else
3:06:04saying lest the beauty I talked to her
3:06:07and as a result of talking to Leslie you
3:06:09did that's why I left this
3:06:12objection argumentative okay ma'am
3:06:16Leslie Yuri really didn't have anything
3:06:19to do with that call right I made the
3:06:22call I just got the idea after speaking
3:06:24with her
3:06:26so she was the reason why you had the
3:06:28idea that
3:06:31um that
3:06:35kind of I guess and according to you if
3:06:39it had not been for Leslie Yuri you
3:06:41wouldn't have thought about it right I
3:06:45probably might have thought of it
3:06:46eventually but
3:06:48maybe not
3:06:50I don't know I just know that I thought
3:06:52of it after she mentioned she had left a
3:06:54message on his voicemail and so because
3:06:56of this outside stimulus you decided to
3:07:00leave this message right it was your
3:07:02decision it was my decision just like
3:07:04visiting Mr Alexander
3:07:07was your decision right on June 4th of
3:07:112008 was your decision right yes
3:07:14even though you told us before that
3:07:18guilted you that really wasn't the
3:07:20reason that you went you wanted to go
3:07:22correct
3:07:24part of me did and part of me didn't
3:07:26obviously the bigger part of me did
3:07:28because I went and he did guilt me and
3:07:30ultimately still was my decision
3:07:32and so you made the decision to go
3:07:34though right
3:07:36yes and then though after that
3:07:39you did something else it covered up
3:07:41didn't you yes take a look at another
3:07:43exit
3:08:00take a look at exhibit number 504
3:08:12yes
3:08:13it's a text message that you sent
3:08:15correct yes what's the date the 6th of
3:08:19June pardon June 6th 2018. and it's to
3:08:23Mr Alexander correct
3:08:25yes
3:08:27and again the hours are off by seven
3:08:30correct
3:08:32um yeah I didn't look at the hours
3:08:33well why don't you just take a look at
3:08:35the hours just so that we can make sure
3:08:37[Music]
3:08:38okay
3:08:40they're off by seven correct yes
3:08:45[Music]
3:08:54no objection I have author is admitted
3:09:05foreign
3:09:11let's take a look at this text message
3:09:25first of all
3:09:27that's your telephone number there on
3:09:29the left correct that was yes
3:09:32and the date there is
3:09:346608 correct yes we take the seven hours
3:09:37away from the 1658 what we're really
3:09:40talking on the seven hours from 1658
3:09:42what we're really talking about is what
3:09:439 58 in the morning is that correct yes
3:09:49this is why you were still on the road
3:09:50right home correct
3:09:53yes I believe it was
3:09:55and
3:09:58why don't you read
3:09:59for us
3:10:01what the message is that you left for Mr
3:10:04Alexander
3:10:05hey I need to know when you're going to
3:10:07deposit that check
3:10:09and you were referring to the check
3:10:11involving the car right yes the check
3:10:14that you know was uncashed in his
3:10:18desk in his office right
3:10:22um I don't didn't know where it was but
3:10:24I figured it wasn't
3:10:25cashed yeah in fact there was a
3:10:28conversation that you had with the
3:10:29detective where you talked to him about
3:10:32the uncashed check correct yes so you
3:10:35knew it was uncashed correct
3:10:37if I yeah when it by the time it hadn't
3:10:40cleared on the whenever I talked to him
3:10:42I knew it was uncached but another thing
3:10:44you know on this date is that Mr
3:10:46Alexander was dead didn't you
3:10:49yeah and you did that again
3:10:54so that you could cover up
3:10:57what you had done right yes
3:11:00because you did not want to be faced
3:11:03with whatever consequences were involved
3:11:05right
3:11:07I was afraid of the consequence
3:11:09and because you were afraid that was a
3:11:12good enough excuse for you to send
3:11:14something like that
3:11:19restate
3:11:21the reason that you said gave to us that
3:11:23you were afraid
3:11:25in your mind even though the fog had
3:11:27left or there was a fog that was
3:11:30involved
3:11:32you felt that it was okay to send this
3:11:35message
3:11:37I didn't feel it was okay
3:11:41it's not like that
3:11:43so I guess that would be no well then
3:11:45why are you sending it are you sending
3:11:46it
3:11:47so that he can reach him in the grave or
3:11:49what
3:11:55no you're sending it so that as you
3:11:59previously said involving the telephone
3:12:01calls so you won't have to face the
3:12:03consequences of what you did right yes
3:12:07yes just like the scene you're trying to
3:12:09manipulate the evidence right yes
3:12:13take a look at another exhibit
3:12:16505.
3:12:21if you recognize it
3:12:27yeah and that's an email right yeah sent
3:12:32by you right yes said to Mr Alexander
3:12:35right to his email and what date and
3:12:38time was it sent Saturday June 7 2008
3:12:41what time
3:12:42sorry um 10 21.
3:12:53I'm opening mission
3:13:06no objection 505 is admitted
3:13:10it's from you right yeah and you've
3:13:12already told us the date and time
3:13:14you're sending a sham even though you
3:13:16know he's dead right
3:13:19it's a way to Stage the scene right
3:13:22I think so yeah that was my goal I think
3:13:25what was I didn't hear you that was my
3:13:27goal right yeah
3:13:29why don't you
3:13:30start with hey you and read to us what
3:13:33it says
3:13:34hey you I haven't heard back
3:13:39the fact that it was sent is enough
3:13:43hey you I haven't heard back from you I
3:13:45hope you're not still upset that I
3:13:47didn't come to see you I just didn't
3:13:49have enough time off it's okay sweetie
3:13:52you're going to be here in less than two
3:13:54weeks we're going to see the sights
3:14:08you also write check things off the list
3:14:10and all kinds of fun things right
3:14:15yes
3:14:16you say Oregon is beautiful this time of
3:14:18year yay be happy correct
3:14:22and then you say anyway
3:14:25I wanted to let you know that I'm
3:14:27thinking about pushing my visit up the
3:14:29next week but it depends on my budget so
3:14:31I'm not sure yet I know you'll be in
3:14:34Cancun
3:14:35but I'll probably crash at your house in
3:14:38your cozy bed anyway
3:14:40eat some of your oatmeal and frozen
3:14:42dinners you know the usual joke
3:14:45I know you said the door is always open
3:14:47but I wanted to give you a heads up
3:14:49if for any reason that won't work let me
3:14:52know and I'll make other arrangements
3:14:54your house has always been my second
3:14:55home although it's a bit more lonely
3:14:58without naps around me you're probably
3:14:59in California right now but wherever you
3:15:03are but wherever you are get a hold of
3:15:07me at least before you head to Mexico
3:15:08thanks hun Jody
3:15:11you wrote that right
3:15:13yes that was your way of it an attempt
3:15:17for you to again stage the scene so to
3:15:19speak right yes
3:15:21I'm gonna play something for you man
3:15:26this is exhibit number 248.
3:15:32no jury is going to convict me why not
3:15:35because I'm innocent and you can mark my
3:15:37words on that when no jury will convict
3:15:39me
3:15:42that's you right yes and that's you
3:15:45saying that
3:15:46not
3:15:48that you're going to
3:15:50not be convicted because you're going to
3:15:53commit suicide or anything like that is
3:15:55it that's correct you're saying that
3:15:57you're innocent right yes and you
3:16:00believe that no jury would convict you
3:16:04because you were going to lie your way
3:16:06out of it right okay it's an
3:16:08argumentative the state ma'am
3:16:12you indicated certain things in this
3:16:14court as part of your testimony didn't
3:16:16you yes you indicated for example that
3:16:19Travis Alexander that you saw him
3:16:21masturbating to a picture or pictures of
3:16:25young
3:16:27boys correct I only saw one picture
3:16:29right you saw him do that that's a lie
3:16:33isn't it man
3:16:35I wish it was a lie and a man with
3:16:38regard to this issue of him being
3:16:41hypersexual
3:16:43and him overbearing being overbearing in
3:16:47that department that's not true is it
3:16:53um it's true that he was hypersexual
3:16:56it's not true he was hypersexual I asked
3:16:58if he was overbearing you said
3:17:00hypersexual all right let's go with
3:17:03overbearing man no I don't think he was
3:17:05overbearing and in fact
3:17:07you gave as well as you took didn't you
3:17:11objection
3:17:13cause for speculation
3:17:15you were in it
3:17:17to the same extent that he was in the
3:17:19activities right
3:17:25ma'am for example we saw some of the
3:17:27text messages that you sent to him right
3:17:30yes we heard some of the conversations
3:17:33that you had with him right yes you
3:17:35indicated for example I don't need to go
3:17:37into all of them that you wanted to
3:17:39sexually Blossom do you remember that
3:17:41yes and you remember specifically saying
3:17:44that you wanted a facial do you remember
3:17:45that yes so you were enjoying the sex
3:17:48weren't you yes mostly yes and yet you
3:17:52came in here and for days upon and days
3:17:55you told us how comfortable he they made
3:17:57you feel right only those times we
3:18:00didn't talk about all the other times
3:18:01and ma'am additionally
3:18:04you talked about how he was physically
3:18:07abusive to you during your testimony
3:18:09right yes
3:18:11and you said for example that in March
3:18:14when you were going to move
3:18:17to
3:18:18Yreka that he hit you on the freeway
3:18:20right yes but we took a look at your
3:18:23Journal
3:18:25entry do you remember that yes and your
3:18:27journal entry speaks otherwise doesn't
3:18:30it
3:18:32um it doesn't speak of the incident no
3:18:34it spoke of tenderness three soft kisses
3:18:38doesn't it yes and involving
3:18:42the allegation that he kicked you and
3:18:45did something to your finger do you
3:18:48remember that we also took a look at
3:18:49your Journal
3:18:51yes and in that journal
3:18:54that journal indicated that on the day
3:18:56that that was supposed to have happened
3:19:00nothing noteworthy happened that's what
3:19:03your Journal said right
3:19:05over the span of those four days right
3:19:07and on January 22nd when you allegedly
3:19:10saw him
3:19:12in this masturbatory conduct that's also
3:19:16when you wrote in your Journal that
3:19:18nothing
3:19:20noteworthy occurred right I'm sorry it
3:19:22was on the 21st but that was right the
3:19:2521st but your journal entry of the 24th
3:19:28covers
3:19:30June 24 I'm sorry January 21st doesn't
3:19:33it yes
3:19:37and so
3:19:39you believe that you're going to be
3:19:42acquitted
3:19:43because you came in and told those
3:19:47stories don't you argumentative
3:19:49irrelevance
3:19:51I can't predict the future and that's
3:19:54not why I told the truth I still plan to
3:19:55kill myself when I told the truth and
3:19:57you believe that you you're saying that
3:20:00at that time you plan to kill yourself
3:20:03right yes but that's not what you say in
3:20:05there do you no I couldn't say that well
3:20:08I'm not saying whether or not you could
3:20:10say it you started your testimony on
3:20:13direct examination by saying those are
3:20:15the bitterest words I have ever uttered
3:20:17do you remember saying that no I said
3:20:18they're probably the most bitter
3:20:20bitterest words I will ever eat right so
3:20:23you have a very good memory as to what
3:20:25you said about that right
3:20:28yes
3:20:29and you said that the reason that you
3:20:33made that comment that no jury would
3:20:35convict you was because you were going
3:20:38to commit suicide right that's great but
3:20:41in this clip that we saw you actually
3:20:43say it's because you're innocent right
3:20:47yes the first degree murder I'm innocent
3:20:50of that yeah it does say that you did
3:20:52say you were innocent right yes even
3:20:54that's a lie isn't it man
3:20:57um not how I was meaning it what's that
3:21:00not in argumentative
3:21:02rephrase isn't it inconsistent your
3:21:06testimony isn't it inconsistent with
3:21:09what you this particular exhibit
3:21:13248 what you say in exam 248 objection
3:21:17is oh that's not accuratives of Defense
3:21:20approach
3:21:22may continue
3:21:24objection overruled
3:21:27in this
3:21:30exhibit 248 you heard yourself right
3:21:35yes you said I'm innocent no jury will
3:21:38convict me right yes whereas when you
3:21:41started this
3:21:43direct examination your testimony you
3:21:45said
3:21:46the reason I said that no jury would
3:21:48convict me was because I planned to kill
3:21:51myself right I said I plan to be dead
3:21:53yes
3:21:54because you were to plan to commit
3:21:56suicide right that's correct those are
3:21:59two different stories aren't they no
3:22:01and I explained why I didn't say suicide
3:22:04as opposed the alternative because there
3:22:05was an officer sitting a few feet behind
3:22:07me and if I'd said that they would have
3:22:08called me off to a padded room stripped
3:22:10me naked and I would have lived there
3:22:11until whenever so what you are saying
3:22:14even today that when you say that you're
3:22:16innocent that means to you that there's
3:22:19an officer sitting next to you and you
3:22:20didn't want him to know that you were
3:22:21going to commit suicide right that's
3:22:23what you're saying
3:22:24when I made that statement yes well you
3:22:26said innocent that's what to equate it
3:22:28with
3:22:30um well definitely innocent of yes
3:22:32pre-planning whatever you're trying to
3:22:33say you've been asking about that I'm
3:22:35asking statements isn't it true that the
3:22:37statements are different that's all I'm
3:22:39asking yeah they're different I don't
3:22:41have anything else thank you
3:22:43all right ladies and gentlemen we will
3:22:45see you on Monday 10 15. please remember
3:22:50the admonition
3:22:51are there any questions
3:22:54have a nice weekend
3:23:05so the jury has left the courtroom this
3:23:07area she may step down
3:23:09[Music]
3:23:10we are in recess we do have a hearing if
3:23:14you don't plan to stay for the hearing
3:23:15I'm going to ask that you leave the
3:23:16courtroom
3:23:21set for hearing on a an application for
3:23:24leave to intervene for The Limited
3:23:26purpose of unsealing the transcript of
3:23:29the February 20 2013 closed proceeding
3:23:32and any other closed hearings during
3:23:34trial filed by
3:23:37attorneys for kpnx Broadcasting Company
3:23:40and Phoenix newspapers Incorporated
3:23:42appearances for the record please
3:23:45foreign state
3:23:48Kirk Jeremy and Jennifer Wilmot on
3:23:50behalf of the areas
3:23:52good afternoon your honor David bodney
3:23:55and with me Chris meeser on behalf of
3:23:57Phoenix newspapers Inc and kpnx
3:24:00Broadcasting Company
3:24:02good afternoon I received your
3:24:04application this morning the attorneys
3:24:08also have received a copy of your
3:24:11application
3:24:14what is the state's regards the
3:24:17application I'll leave it to the Court's
3:24:19discretion
3:24:20Army
3:24:23the judge I have reviewed the
3:24:25application
3:24:29I would cite the court as we had in in
3:24:31previous proceedings
3:24:34the S2 Estes for Texas
3:24:38there is a right to a public trial but
3:24:40it must be
3:24:42weighed against the rights to have a
3:24:45fair trial
3:24:46and given given that we believe that
3:24:52um
3:24:54he writes that the things that are
3:24:57discussed in those chambers and at bench
3:25:00conferences Etc help facilitate her
3:25:03receiving a fair trial and the
3:25:06dissemination of said material would uh
3:25:09interfere with that
3:25:12I believe that the
3:25:15um
3:25:17the attorneys for Phoenix newspaper have
3:25:19not put forth anything that really would
3:25:22demonstrate to the contrary having
3:25:25spoken first I'm not sure which
3:25:27assertions they would make however it
3:25:30has been their consistent position I
3:25:34guess or to
3:25:35seemingly ignore the fact that this is a
3:25:40death penalty case more process is due
3:25:43than less citing the court to Lockett V
3:25:46Ohio 408 U.S 586 and Woodson V North
3:25:51Carolina 428 U.S 280.
3:25:56um
3:25:57so we have not only an instance where
3:26:01we're talking about Fair trial but we're
3:26:03also talking about fundamental fairness
3:26:05and sentencing in a death penalty
3:26:08setting
3:26:09that you know fairness as it relates to
3:26:12trial and sentencing is is eviscerated
3:26:15if uh crucial information that must be
3:26:19discussed amongst attorneys and the
3:26:22court is is somehow publicized that
3:26:25would again uh interfere with her right
3:26:28to a fair trial the benefit to the right
3:26:31to the fair trial is really held by Miss
3:26:34Arias not by Phoenix newspapers this is
3:26:38a trial not a television event
3:26:41signing to Garnet company versus de
3:26:44Pasquale 443 us
3:26:47368.
3:26:48with that judge I would rest I think
3:26:51I've made sufficient record in my
3:26:52position and again I would continue to
3:26:56cite the
3:26:57the reality that the Phoenix newspapers
3:27:00have not provided you any serious
3:27:03Authority as to why in these proceedings
3:27:05Miss Aries right should be truncated by
3:27:08their desire to have these transcripts
3:27:14Mr botany do you have anything you'd
3:27:15like to add to your written pleading
3:27:20um thank you your honor for this
3:27:22opportunity to be heard we appreciate it
3:27:26we are certainly mindful that this is an
3:27:31important criminal case and we do not
3:27:34mean to take up any more of the Court's
3:27:36time or attention than necessary
3:27:39and we do not mean to diminish the
3:27:42importance of the sixth amendment uh and
3:27:45fair trial rights in this case
3:27:48but since X Estes versus Texas was
3:27:51decided in the 1960s the United States
3:27:54Supreme Court decided no less than four
3:27:57cases in the 1980s recognizing a First
3:28:02Amendment right of the press and public
3:28:05to attend criminal proceedings important
3:28:10cases just like these and so we're at a
3:28:16decided disadvantage when it comes to
3:28:19offering specifics as to why the hearing
3:28:23that took place on February 20
3:28:26or any other clothes proceeding in this
3:28:29case should be open
3:28:31all we can underscore in assistance to
3:28:36the court quite frankly on this issue is
3:28:37this
3:28:39uh there is a First Amendment right of
3:28:41the press and public to attend virtually
3:28:44all aspects of criminal proceedings
3:28:49that is a presumed right and it can be
3:28:55limited only upon a showing
3:28:59buttressed by specific findings on the
3:29:03record of some overriding interest that
3:29:07trumps that First Amendment right
3:29:10and a showing that the
3:29:14narrowly tailored Provisions designed to
3:29:18protect that interest are essential to
3:29:22preserving a higher value
3:29:24and finally there really are no less
3:29:28drastic alternatives to closure and so
3:29:33because we don't know what was said in
3:29:37any closed proceeding we have to Repose
3:29:41our confidence in the court to issue
3:29:45specific findings on the record either
3:29:48in support of closure or in support of
3:29:52release of transcripts of any
3:29:55proceedings that have been closed today
3:29:57and and I recognize that as the ninth
3:30:01Circuit Court of Appeals recognized in
3:30:03what we call the Simington case the
3:30:06Phoenix newspapers versus District Court
3:30:07decision that
3:30:10release of those transcripts should
3:30:14occur when any danger dissipates
3:30:17so if counsel for the defendant is aware
3:30:20of some danger that would exist for the
3:30:25fair trial right of his client by
3:30:27release of
3:30:29a sentence or two or the entirety of
3:30:32that February 20 transcript and the
3:30:34court agrees then I suppose findings in
3:30:38support of that conclusion should be
3:30:40issued and then the press in public will
3:30:43have a greater understanding about why
3:30:46that particular hearing took place in
3:30:49close session and why any other hearings
3:30:52in this important criminal trial take
3:30:54place in close sentence a session so in
3:30:58closing your honor we are very mindful
3:31:01of the importance of the case from the
3:31:04prosecutor's perspective and from the
3:31:06defendant's perspective we are mindful
3:31:08of your Honors time and for that reason
3:31:10I will include my remarks unless there
3:31:12are any questions again we appreciate
3:31:14the opportunity to be heard and to ask
3:31:17the court to
3:31:19give life to these first amendment
3:31:22protections which are Supreme Court of
3:31:24the United States is recognized
3:31:26thank you Mr botany this court is
3:31:29mindful of its obligation to keep the
3:31:31courtroom doors open we have done so in
3:31:34this trial
3:31:35this trial has been covered by the media
3:31:38gavel to gavel
3:31:40some of the evidentiary rulings in this
3:31:43case have been held in open court others
3:31:47have not
3:31:48when this court closed a proceeding
3:31:51this court made findings consistent with
3:31:53rule 122.
3:31:56and Arizona law specifically this court
3:31:59found that there does exist a compelling
3:32:01interest that overcomes the right of the
3:32:05public to access the record of that
3:32:08particular proceeding the quartile has
3:32:11also found that
3:32:13there is a compelling interest
3:32:14supporting ceiling or redacting the
3:32:17record
3:32:18when it was required
3:32:21specifically this court found on
3:32:23occasion that the Privacy interest of
3:32:26witnesses possible Witnesses and jurors
3:32:29could be affected
3:32:31by the disclosure of certain matters
3:32:33that occurred in Chambers
3:32:35Ford also found that a substantial
3:32:37probability exists that the compelling
3:32:40interest will be prejudiced if the
3:32:42record is not sealed
3:32:44until this trial is concluded
3:32:48the court also found that that proposed
3:32:51ceiling was narrowly tailored
3:32:54and that no less restrictive means exist
3:32:56to achieve that compelling interest
3:33:00the court also found that dissemination
3:33:02of materials
3:33:04and information
3:33:06that was exchanged during Ian Chambers
3:33:09proceedings would affect the defendant's
3:33:11right to a pharaoh trial because of the
3:33:14intense media scrutiny in this case
3:33:18dissemination of certain matters
3:33:21discussed in those in Chambers
3:33:23proceedings could affect the strategy
3:33:25and the evidence presented in this case
3:33:27and could affect the testimony of
3:33:29potential Witnesses for those reasons
3:33:32the court has chosen to seal certain
3:33:35portions of this case
3:33:38certainly nothing that was heard by the
3:33:40jury
3:33:43but certain evidentiary matters and
3:33:45other hearings
3:33:47so the application for leave to
3:33:50intervene for The Limited purpose of
3:33:52unsealing the transcript of February 20
3:33:542013 is denied for the reasons stated
3:33:59some of the
3:34:01in Chambers proceedings were not sealed
3:34:05and if there is a specific hearing or
3:34:08specific request this court will
3:34:10consider that but I believe that most of
3:34:14the
3:34:15in Chambers proceedings were sealed at
3:34:18the request of the defendant and there
3:34:20was no objection from the state and as I
3:34:23said earlier this court made specific
3:34:24findings that sealing those specific
3:34:27proceedings was necessary
3:34:30and in the public interest
3:34:32so is there anything else Council no
3:34:36your honor just the the only matter not
3:34:40related to this
3:34:42um simply deals with exhibits
3:34:45um since we're beginning to redirect my
3:34:47understanding is the council for the
3:34:49state still has one exhibit checked out
3:34:51we'd like the opportunity to have that
3:34:54return so we can check it out in
3:34:55preparation
3:34:57and he discussed it with me five minutes
3:35:00ago asking whether or not I had another
3:35:02exhibit I indicated to him that I did I
3:35:04would return it tomorrow so I'm not sure
3:35:06why that's becoming an issue I want to
3:35:08make a record of it
3:35:09foreign
3:35:24ER very briefly
3:35:27um just two points of clarification
3:35:29I thought I heard your honor say that
3:35:31the application was denied for the
3:35:33reason stated I would hope that the
3:35:36application for leave to intervene
3:35:39based on the standing that my clients
3:35:41enjoy would be granted but that the
3:35:45relief requested today be denied
3:35:48recognizing that we have a standing
3:35:51request
3:35:52or copies of those transcripts
3:35:55at the conclusion of the trial
3:35:58or whenever the reasons for their
3:36:00closure dissipate if sooner
3:36:04all right I will grant your request to
3:36:06intervene and I believe it would be
3:36:08appropriate for those transcripts to be
3:36:10made public after the trial has
3:36:12concluded so if that clarifies my ruling
3:36:16it does your honor thank you I would
3:36:19take issue with that
3:36:21if the sins if there is a death sentence
3:36:25opposed there is an automatic appeal
3:36:28there's automatic post conviction
3:36:29there's many habeas issues that could
3:36:33arise I don't think an automatic
3:36:36unsealing
3:36:39dissipates any issues related to to
3:36:43those possible proceedings if the
3:36:45sentence is death so I would take issue
3:36:48with the court going that far at this
3:36:50point in time
3:36:52all right
3:36:53I will give
3:36:55defense counsel an opportunity to
3:36:59indicate any specific proceedings that
3:37:01you are concerned about and this court
3:37:04will take up the request of the
3:37:06intervener at the conclusion of the
3:37:08trial and make a determination of which
3:37:11proceedings should remain sealed
3:37:13and which may be provided I would then
3:37:18ask for if at the end of this trial
3:37:22Phoenix newspapers is making such
3:37:24requests that they file specific
3:37:26requests for me in advance so we can
3:37:29take it up so I can take a look back at
3:37:31what these things are
3:37:33yes most of them would require a
3:37:36transcript I think from a court reporter
3:37:39because those proceedings were not
3:37:41conducted
3:37:42in the courtroom so there would not be
3:37:44an FTR record we would need a record
3:37:46from a specific court reporter so Mr
3:37:49botany if you had a specific request for
3:37:51a hearing on a specific date you would
3:37:53need to give us enough time to have a
3:37:54transcript prepared so that we can all
3:37:56review that and make a determination
3:37:58and your honor I guess we would like to
3:38:01make a standing request for the February
3:38:0320 hearing and if there have been other
3:38:06closed proceedings at which issues in
3:38:09this trial have been decided we would
3:38:11request access to them obviously we
3:38:14don't know what was said during those
3:38:15closed proceedings and therefore can't
3:38:17be any more specific than that all right
3:38:19Mr bataki is the court reporter
3:38:22for that particular hearing I will
3:38:24request that he prepare a transcript so
3:38:26that all the parties can review that
3:38:28specific proceeding is is that the only
3:38:31one you're concerned about now
3:38:33the only one I'm specifically aware of
3:38:35now though I understand there to have
3:38:37been others
3:38:38all right I can't tell you when that
3:38:40transcript will be ready he has many
3:38:42requests for transcripts and it will be
3:38:46in line with all of his other requests
3:38:48but I will pass that along
3:38:51all right appreciate that thank you

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