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Jennifer Pan | Confessions of a Serial Killer | S2E03 — Transcript

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0:00[Music]
0:05i'm professor david wilson
0:08as a criminologist i'm often asked
0:11what's it like to interview a murderer
0:20to answer this question i'm going to
0:22take you on a journey
0:24into the dark heart of the police
0:27interrogation room
0:30using cutting edge lip sync technology
0:34will bring to life the actual tape
0:36confessions
0:38of some of the world's most notorious
0:40killers i put tape on her mouth held it
0:43there so she couldn't breathe
0:44and bring you
0:46face to face with evil i felt sick
0:50looking at him
0:51knowing
0:53what he did
0:55and along with forensic psychologists
0:58professor michael brooks
1:00i'll analyze their interviews in
1:02unparalleled detail
1:05her skull gave way a little bit
1:09she was there immediately unconscious
1:12their wicked words
1:14now seen spoken for the very first time
1:17will never be forgotten
1:20so i didn't suggest to him that we kill
1:22her on sunday but i knew that
1:24she i knew that she had to
1:27be gone
1:32[Music]
1:46[Music]
1:52the interview in today's episode is a
1:55master class in the use of the read
1:58technique model of police interviewing
2:00adopted in the united states and canada
2:04in the read technique interviewing is an
2:06accusatory process where the
2:09investigator tells the suspect that the
2:11results of their investigation clearly
2:14indicates that they did indeed commit
2:17the crime in question
2:18the interviewee is a young woman the
2:21suspect in a crime that shocked canada
2:24a respectable middle-class family had
2:27been gunned down in their homes the
2:30mother lay dead the father fighting for
2:32his life and their terrified daughter
2:35found tied to a banister upstairs
2:38was this a home invasion or a robbery
2:41gone wrong
2:42or was the truth of the crime to be
2:44found far closer to home a home where
2:47the daughter fell under immense pressure
2:50to be a success by her overbearing
2:53parents
2:54the police had many questions but no
2:57answers and the daughter's account of
2:59the night was proving to be of little
3:01help
3:02then they had the breakthrough they
3:04needed
3:05unbeknown to the girl her father had
3:08survived the attack
3:10when he woke up from a three-day coma he
3:12told investigators details of the home
3:15invasion that left his daughter under
3:18suspicion
3:19he said that he saw her talking to one
3:22of the men like a friend and that her
3:24arms weren't even tied behind her back
3:26while she was being led around the house
3:30after initial questioning the girl was
3:32turned over to detective bill gates
3:35gator as he was known around the police
3:37force
3:38geets is an experienced interviewer and
3:41cold and calculating almost from the
3:44get-go
3:45he clearly means business and identifies
3:48the girl's manipulative tendencies
3:51immediately
3:52he plays both good cop and bad cop a
3:55dual role with which he seems entirely
3:58at ease his interview will contain a
4:01series of outright lies which is part of
4:05the read technique
4:07over the many hours she sits before him
4:09geets relentlessly breaks his
4:11interviewee down and eventually brings
4:14about an admission from the girl that
4:16she had ordered the hit on her family
4:20who is this killer who felt that the
4:22pressure to be perfect by her parents
4:25was enough to warrant their murder
4:28jennifer pan
4:32[Music]
4:34exactly two weeks after jennifer pan's
4:37mother bishop was killed by gunmen and
4:40her father han pan was shot and wounded
4:44jennifer faced questioning by york
4:46regional police in canada
4:49[Music]
4:52she claimed she was the lone victim left
4:54standing in the home invasion at her
4:57markham residence on november the 8th
5:002010
5:02the police were suspicious but had
5:04little evidence
5:06[Music]
5:14so today's the 9th in november
5:172010 you're in a room right now that's
5:21being audio recorded
5:24so if you can identify yourself for me
5:26my name is jennifer pan
5:28[Music]
5:30jennifer pan's parents had emigrated
5:32from vietnam to canada and they had
5:36built their life from the ground up they
5:38had worked so hard for everything they
5:40had and they wanted jennifer to do well
5:42in life and they had wanted for her to
5:44become a doctor she's been given all the
5:46opportunities to succeed but
5:48academically she's challenged she can't
5:50actually meet those expectations and as
5:53a result of that and the fear of failing
5:55in a parent's eyes she then begins to
5:57spin a web of deceit and lies
6:00[Music]
6:02she made this very early decision to
6:04start to create a new reality she wanted
6:06to keep it from her parents she started
6:08to forge her report cards and
6:10give herself so she looks like she had
6:12straight a's
6:14and then once she was on that journey
6:17that train there was no getting off
6:20she faked it for years getting straight
6:23a's she claimed to have a place at
6:25university
6:27the university declined to take her
6:29because she didn't match her entrance
6:32requirements she went to enormous
6:34lengths to
6:36maintain that facade she'd go and get
6:38books on pharmacology and also look at
6:41youtube
6:42clips on on videos to get her write up
6:44lecture notes to show her parents she
6:47even
6:48claimed to have graduated from the
6:51university of toronto and got an
6:54internship at the children's hospital a
6:56very stiff competition to get a place
6:59so of course her parents are very proud
7:01of her actually she was working as a
7:04waitress and she was teaching piano to
7:07other children
7:10when there's so much pressure to achieve
7:12as there was with with jennifer pan
7:15this pressure takes the form not just of
7:19a focus to her life
7:21a central goal to her life it becomes
7:23actually the only reality she knows so
7:25the only way that she understands
7:27evaluates herself
7:29and her life her whole existence
7:32is against the measure of achievement
7:34that her parents present for her in
7:36somebody young and vulnerable this this
7:38goes beyond just producing a sense of
7:40being stressed it actually defines their
7:44whole world
7:46and i think we see this with with the
7:48way in which um jennifer saw her only
7:51possible response to to failure was was
7:54to do everything she could to conceal it
7:56when her family found this out they were
7:58so angry at her and she had to explain
8:01that actually she'd failed the exam she
8:04needed
8:05basically
8:07all hell broke loose family home
8:09her father apparently wanted to throw
8:11her out and was disgraced and everything
8:14else it also emerged that she had a
8:16boyfriend daniel
8:19wong who she'd known for many years from
8:21school days
8:22her parents insisted that
8:25age gave up the boyfriend be that she
8:29completed a high school education and
8:31see that she became a much more dutiful
8:34daughter and
8:36restricted to her very much in her
8:38social life so that she wasn't allowed
8:40to go out she was very much confined to
8:43home or to work she ended up staying
8:46with her family and she tried to not
8:48have any contact with daniel but it's
8:51very evident that this wasn't the case
8:53the two did continue to talk and did
8:55continue to have a relationship
8:57but because it was a secret
9:00daniel then found someone else and he
9:02fell in love with another girl and this
9:04really sent jennifer into a bit of a
9:06depression over the kind of pressure she
9:08was getting from her parents and the
9:10kind of constraints she had on her life
9:13she's clearly
9:14a young woman who was living this double
9:17life because of the sort of stern
9:19parenting that she she'd had from her
9:23mother and father
9:25and so
9:26early on you can understand and
9:28sympathize with her to some extent that
9:30she's she's obviously
9:32really been put through the ring by this
9:34relationship in which she's kind of
9:36expected to achieve so much all the time
9:40and
9:41from her point of view
9:43you feel that it's probably not a very
9:44loving relationship that she has with
9:46her parents
9:47on the other hand
9:49the way she managed tries to escape from
9:51this relationship in the end is is quite
9:54chilling and cold
9:59we are investigating a murder
10:02do you understand the criminal
10:03consequences of making a false statement
10:05yes do you understand the importance of
10:07telling the truth yes i do
10:10okay so this isn't suspecting that
10:13you're not going to tell the truth
10:15this is more of a feature that you
10:16understand the importance of telling the
10:19complete truth
10:20you have nothing to apologize to me for
10:23jennifer i
10:25it's going to be tough
10:27i'll get you some kleenex in a second
10:28okay
10:30[Music]
10:31now i want you to
10:33sort of take yourself back to earlier on
10:35today
10:36by yesterday
10:39when she's first taken in she she comes
10:41across quite well i think and she cuts a
10:44sympathetic figure um she's tearful she
10:48doesn't look like the sort of person
10:49that would be able to engineer
10:52this this kind of crime
10:54but when you think about it again
10:56she's also a person who's been leading a
10:58double life for several years and been
11:00lying to her parents about her grades at
11:03school and then lying about the fact
11:05that she was at university
11:07she'd mounted a whole fictitious life
11:09for herself so
11:11to some extent
11:12it's not that surprising that she would
11:14be fairly convincing in the initial
11:16stages of the interrogation process
11:18[Music]
11:21my mom came home i believe that was
11:23around 9 30 or so she was rummaging
11:25downstairs i didn't
11:27think anything of it
11:32[Music]
11:34and then
11:36suddenly i just heard my mom calling for
11:38my dad to come down
11:40and that's when i lowered the volume on
11:42my tv
11:47and i could hear
11:49the voices weren't any voices i was very
11:52familiar
11:53[Applause]
11:59and
12:00so i was scared and i couldn't move i
12:02just sat in my room for
12:04a while
12:05the guy was there and he came at me and
12:08had string in his hand
12:11take your time
12:13take your time
12:15all this is very important so take your
12:17time
12:20they dragged me down the stairs
12:23and made me kneel at the bottom telling
12:25me to face down on the floor
12:28while the other guy had a gun behind my
12:29head
12:30and asked my mom where her purse was
12:34my mom kept trying to get up and they
12:36kept telling her sit down
12:39they took me up the stairs and he tied
12:41me to the top of the bastard
12:48the last things i heard them say was
12:52you lied you lied to us
12:55you lied to him
12:58and then i heard two pups
13:02my mom screamed
13:07most people uh when they've been witness
13:11to a traumatic experience such as the
13:13attempted killing of the parents are
13:15very traumatized can't remember things
13:18and over time
13:20they start to recall more and more
13:22information
13:23she apparently according to the police
13:25had a ready-made story she knew all the
13:28answers to the questions
13:30that straight away makes people
13:33suspicious of her
13:35during a witness interview if you have
13:37suspicions in the back of your mind
13:39that this person
13:41maybe
13:42have a role in the offence
13:45you have to caution them
13:47under under the police and criminal
13:49evidence act and if you do you then have
13:51to stop that interview
13:53and
13:53re-interview them
13:55as a suspect
13:56so
13:58it's a great balancing act to get as
14:00much as you can from them
14:03as a witness
14:04without tipping over
14:07into the
14:09suspect
14:11part of the investigation
14:15what do you see of this guy
14:17and i'm calling him a guy because you
14:19said you you thought they were i think
14:20they were all three man
14:22okay so tell me about this guy
14:25uh he was
14:28medium filled okay
14:30i didn't i don't remember any of his
14:32clothing unfortunately
14:35the only thing i can remember was him
14:36was he had dreadlocks he had dreadlocks
14:39so are you can you describe his race to
14:41me he was
14:42black when the police arrived they found
14:46jennifer upstairs in the bedroom and
14:47released her from the bonds that were
14:49tying her up
14:50and started talking to her the medical
14:53staff were in attendance downstairs and
14:55obviously the crime scene was sealed off
14:58officers attending the scene thought it
15:00was a bit strange they thought there was
15:01something suspicious immediately
15:04simple fact of the matter that she had
15:06been alienated from the attack
15:09made it stand out as suspicious why was
15:12she not shot like her parents why was
15:15she taken upstairs
15:16the second thing of course that come to
15:18their nature was her hands were tied
15:20behind her back bound behind her back
15:22and she made a 999 call a 9-1-1 call to
15:25the police an emergency service girl
15:28and they asked her to reenact that and
15:30she couldn't do it it was impossible
15:34the other thing that jennifer was not
15:36aware of was her father surviving the
15:38attack
15:39and when the police went to investigate
15:41us interview her father once he was
15:43recovered
15:44he told an altogether different story
15:46from that jennifer had told
15:48he told how jennifer had been
15:50acquiescing with the
15:52attackers it wasn't a scared little girl
15:55or scared woman who was frightened for
15:56her life she'd been interacting and
15:58walking around
16:00the mother's dead body and he'd seen it
16:02his own daughter his own flesh and blood
16:05there
16:06basically out to murder them
16:10i'm here with professor michael brooks
16:12as a former prison psychologist he's
16:15experienced firsthand the lengths of
16:18deception that murderers will go to in
16:21order to deny their crimes
16:24[Music]
16:33michael what did you make of that part
16:36of the interview
16:37well i i think that it worked out
16:40that she's very involved in the crime
16:43regardless of whether or not
16:46her father had lived
16:48it's very unusual for there to be an
16:51assault
16:52on only two people when there's three in
16:54the house
16:55so you'd have expected her to have to
16:58sustain some injuries and the fact that
17:00she didn't would lead um the police to
17:02ask those questions and it then depends
17:05upon the interviewing technique that you
17:06want to take did you just
17:09let the person that you're interviewing
17:11continue with that narrative or at some
17:13point you you present some alternative
17:15information
17:18with pan's initial interview completed
17:21the police decide that her next one is
17:23going to be radically different
17:26she's no longer a victim in the eyes of
17:28the law
17:29rather she's their lead suspect jennifer
17:32is about to be confronted with a
17:34dramatic shift in interview style
17:38enter detective bill gaider geets
17:41jennifer's responses are muffled by
17:43sobbing each time her mother is
17:45mentioned
17:46but rather than console her geets
17:49nonchalantly but sternly tells her to
17:52speak up
17:54geets is not only an expert at detecting
17:56deception he says but is also well
17:59versed at coaxing information from those
18:02who otherwise try to deceive the police
18:05in jennifer's case he spends the next
18:08two hours gaining her trust
18:11once that stage is complete he turns the
18:13tables using the goodwill and
18:15familiarity he's built up with her
18:18to secure a confession
18:22detectives were now convinced that pan
18:24was lying so in their bid to gain a
18:27confession there was a shift in their
18:29approach
18:30police were about to use the read
18:32technique a tactic so controversial it's
18:35been outlawed in many other countries
18:38because of the risk of false confession
18:41the suspect knows that they are a
18:43suspect for a start so they start off in
18:46a guarded and more guarded mode
18:51they would have been told that they've
18:53been arrested on suspicion of this
18:55murder
18:56so they know just how deep they are in
19:00so then
19:02it's a frantic effort on their part to
19:04either mitigate
19:06or deny
19:12enter detective bill gater geetz one of
19:15the forces most feared and revered
19:17interrogators
19:22okay
19:23now
19:24the reason
19:25why i'm here today okay is
19:28that i'm an expert in what we call truth
19:32verification
19:33okay i'm not a homicide detective
19:36okay although i work on a lot of
19:37homicides
19:39basically all my studies come into
19:41interviewing
19:43and
19:44detecting deception
19:46determine if somebody's telling the
19:48police the truth
19:50i talk to thousands of people okay
19:53and i basically know when somebody's not
19:56being straightforward with me
19:58and people are trained to speak in a
20:00certain language okay
20:02and when they are not being truthful
20:05that shows up in their language
20:08they don't even know they're doing it
20:10okay
20:11we have computer programs and based on
20:14what they say
20:15it will tell us
20:17where the areas of deception are it has
20:20data from thousands of cases right and
20:23people follow patterns
20:25okay and when things go outside of a
20:27normal pattern
20:29that's a red flag
20:32and at this point jennifer
20:35i know that you've not been truthful
20:37with the police
20:40the officer comes in with a great deal
20:43of kidnogy and pretends to tell her that
20:46he knows when she's lying and that he's
20:48an expert in in lie detection now we
20:50know from all the research worldwide
20:53that most police officers aren't that
20:55good at detecting lies but somebody
20:57walking and saying i'm an expert i can
20:59tell you you've been lying is kinology
21:02but from what
21:03we know the case it worked and you've
21:06got to admire the police officer for
21:08having the
21:09gumption to do that
21:17well
21:18wow we've got every major
21:22read technique
21:23exaggeration going in here within the
21:26re-technique detectives are allowed to
21:29lie
21:30to the person that's suspected of having
21:33committed a crime
21:34but ethically michael he may be lying
21:37but if that gets a result why should we
21:40be concerned by that
21:42because it depends upon what moral
21:43stance you want to take in your
21:45interviewing style
21:47and uh as an
21:49interviewer it's not a style that that i
21:51would adopt
21:53i think in many ways
21:55if the person wants to tell you their
21:57story and and and confess then they will
22:00do that
22:01and the
22:02the role is to be able to
22:05create the setting in which somebody
22:06feels comfortable enough to be able to
22:09disclose that information
22:11i will meet people all the time that
22:13will tell me they're a great judge
22:16of whether or not somebody's telling the
22:18truth or whether they're lying
22:21and often
22:22how they'll base their understanding of
22:25that is whether the person is looking up
22:27and to the right or down and to the left
22:30or if they're perhaps self-grooming or
22:33if they refuse to make eye contact
22:36you know you're
22:38you're a great behaviorist do those
22:40behaviors necessarily tell you anything
22:44at all in relation to understanding if
22:46the person is lying or telling the truth
22:49well they may or may not but what you're
22:51interested is is the behavioral
22:53inconsistencies in the record and what
22:55they're saying are they saying
22:57perpetually the same thing because if
22:59somebody lies then there'll be
23:01variations in the story that they tell
23:03they won't be able to keep the same
23:05story consistently and those are the
23:07bits that you want to focus on you may
23:08use sort of the
23:10the non-verbals as guides as an
23:12indicators but they you'll then want to
23:13follow that up
23:14in terms of the conversation that you're
23:17having
23:20you've
23:21not told us everything that you know
23:24purposefully okay
23:26and that you've left information out
23:29okay
23:30there's a number of inconsistencies
23:33in what you've told the police one of
23:36the things you have to remember
23:38is that your dad
23:40was there
23:41okay
23:43and your dad had a front row seat to all
23:45of this
23:47it's an old-fashioned style um i would
23:50return it
23:53the trouble is with with the style like
23:55that if you start off that way there's
23:57no going back
23:59you can't then undo it and try and play
24:02a sympathy card
24:03you're stuck in that mode so
24:06it makes it very rigid
24:11this is not an interview technique this
24:13is interrogation
24:14and we always have to i think
24:18question the efficacy of interrogation
24:20and do you really get the information
24:22that you want or are there alternative
24:24ways of drawing out
24:26information from the person that you're
24:28interviewing
24:30and in relation to where we are at the
24:32moment though detective geets is just
24:34looking at the rubbing points the parts
24:36that don't quite add up for him in terms
24:40of the story that jennifer pan wants to
24:43tell and in particular how would she be
24:46able to make a telephone call given that
24:48she was supposedly tied up and i think
24:50that's perfectly legitimate in any
24:52interview you want to try and
24:54ascertain whether or not the story that
24:57the person that you're interviewing is
24:59telling matches up to the facts
25:02and michael when you've interviewed
25:03offenders in the past
25:05how do you approach that interview
25:09in a much more exploratory way and
25:11wanting to make sense of the disconnects
25:13between what person is saying and what's
25:15on the record but what if because of
25:18course people will listen to this and
25:19they'll say well what if the the
25:21offender doesn't want to talk to you at
25:24all
25:25in terms of the kinds of information
25:26that you're seeking to extract from them
25:29well if the
25:30if the interviewee doesn't want to tell
25:32their story then there's not
25:34much point putting it pushing it until
25:37they're ready to talk but sometimes
25:39people want to understand their own
25:40behaviours why did i do this
25:43they don't always fully understand
25:46their actions everything she had done
25:48was a failure everything she said was a
25:51disappointment to her predominantly her
25:54father she had come to the point where
25:58she could be free of them
26:00and sadly that is the choice that she
26:04took there were other choices but she
26:06didn't have in her personality and her
26:08life experiences
26:10those
26:11choices we have to make crucial choices
26:13and she had not been armed with the
26:15capacity and the confidence and the
26:17self-assurance to return to a real life
26:20a normal life
26:21the only way she could escape that in
26:23her mind
26:25was
26:27extreme prejudice and the termination of
26:29her parents life jennifer turned to
26:32someone she already knew and this
26:34individual had boasted to her that he
26:37had intended to kill his own parents and
26:40in jennifer's eyes that made him a prime
26:42candidate for someone to kill her
26:44parents and so she gave him money and
26:47she asked that he make it look
26:49like a robbery gone wrong or a targeted
26:53incident in which her parents would be
26:55killed and she would be left alive
26:58once they were dead that would allow her
27:00to inherit their fortune and she and her
27:03boyfriend could live happily ever after
27:06kind of life
27:08i mean most people would
27:11would either say look mum and dad i
27:13can't deal with this pressure anymore
27:15i've been lying to you for you know
27:17years
27:19and then you deal with it as a family
27:22but obviously the family dynamics were
27:24such that she didn't see that as an
27:26option or she chose it not to be an
27:28option well i don't think she had the
27:30means i don't think she had the
27:33maturity
27:34the independence the
27:37the set of skills and knowledge that
27:40what it would take to i think she had
27:43long since lost any sense of herself
27:48she had been living this lie this
27:50parallel life she wanted a future
27:52without her parents she wanted a future
27:55with her lover however
27:58sad and
28:00too late that was
28:03and i don't think she had the skill set
28:05necessary it's hard enough for normal
28:07children to leave home this was a case
28:10of
28:11terrible dependency
28:13on her
28:14parents i don't think there was in her
28:18a real
28:19jennifer pan
28:26you lie
28:27you lie to it
28:29[Music]
28:31why do
28:33children try to kill their parents why
28:36would she want to engage
28:39in that kind of behavior well i think
28:41that there's two elements
28:44the first is that um according to to one
28:47account that
28:48um she hired other people before that
28:50but for just very a small amount and
28:52then she went back to her boyfriend and
28:54at some point um the idea of inheriting
28:58uh the money that her parents had came
29:00into play
29:01so inheriting the money for instrumental
29:03reasons she's killing them for
29:05instrumental rather than psychologically
29:07that's that's i think it becomes more
29:08complex because that's the second part
29:10of the story for the first part it was
29:13just um
29:14killing her parents
29:16and
29:17at some way of resolving the conflict
29:20that was within herself or having to
29:22perpetually lie about
29:24what she was doing and then being found
29:26out how does she deal with that
29:28to then going back to her boyfriend and
29:31it then moving on to saying actually
29:33we'll hire somebody professionally to do
29:35it and we might be able to inherit the
29:37money as well so i i think the story is
29:40much more complex um
29:42that that sort of it appears on the
29:45surface
29:46so they we've got a web of different
29:48things going on here and so let's try
29:50and break them down we've got the idea
29:54that she's constantly having to lie to
29:56maintain this fiction that she's more
29:59successful than she actually is she then
30:01gets exposed and therefore
30:04killing her parents is a way of
30:06resolving the fact that that fiction is
30:09seen at last for what it is simply a lie
30:13is that right
30:14and at some point when she has that
30:17further dialogue with her boyfriend it
30:19then moves on to saying well actually if
30:21you can't get somebody that we know
30:23to to kill my parents for a relatively
30:25small amount
30:27at some point and we haven't got the
30:29background to this
30:31comes out that the picture of them
30:33saying well actually we can inherit some
30:36money as well so if we're going to
30:37inherit some money then we can actually
30:39afford some professional hitmen to do
30:41the job
30:43after his initial bluntness geets
30:46changes tack
30:48he eases back in his chair drops the cop
30:51speak and focuses attention solely on
30:54jennifer making her bleak outlook appear
30:57rosier
30:59the read technique requires officers to
31:02reinforce sincerity to ensure the
31:04suspect is receptive to their overtures
31:08hence gitz shares with jennifer his own
31:11experiences
31:12when he reminisces about his time
31:15playing the piano he inaccurately refers
31:18to the valley sworn lake as swans on the
31:21lake
31:22the conversation focuses not only on her
31:25achievements but her struggles as if
31:28she's reminiscing with someone who
31:30really understands
31:32what she's been through
31:34but his empathy doesn't last the
31:37conversation slowly shifts back to her
31:39behavior in the lead up to and on the
31:42night of the murder
31:48who knows what goes through people's
31:50minds in in these states
31:52is an extreme state we mustn't forget
31:55although they are some of them terrible
31:57people have committed terrible crimes
31:59they do have the same feelings as
32:01everybody
32:02so you can appeal to their sympathetic
32:05nature you can appeal to their honor you
32:07can appeal to their family
32:10background
32:12and there will be a reaction just
32:14because they've committed a heinous
32:15offense doesn't mean to say that they
32:17don't react that way
32:19and they try this
32:21process whereby they say to her look
32:23we're on your side you were an abused
32:25young woman why wasn't it good enough
32:27that you you could
32:29you know you could be a piano teacher
32:30not a doctor
32:32you know
32:32anyone would crack in your situation but
32:35you've got to tell us what happened
32:37you helped so you helped set this up so
32:40you've got to come clean on this
32:46you need to tell me
32:47what went on
32:50because you know who was in that house
32:52that night
32:54you do jen there's no question about
32:55that okay
32:58you have actually given an improper
33:00description of the person you were
33:02dealing with
33:03you falsified the whole description of
33:05that person
33:07be honest with me jen
33:09give me that
33:11all right
33:13look at me again
33:16let's be honest with each other
33:19now i do a lot of reading
33:22and over 300 kids in
33:24north america every year
33:27are involved
33:29in their parents deaths okay
33:34and when
33:35we look into those cases
33:37there's always a common factor
33:39that those kids
33:41have had to live up to expectations that
33:43weren't reasonable
33:46that they weren't being treated
33:48the way a human being should be treated
33:53you have spent your whole life trying to
33:56live up to expectations that you can't
33:58make
34:00and that stressed the hell out of you
34:02you're a 24 year old woman being treated
34:05like a 15 year old
34:08it doesn't feel good does it
34:10ken
34:12it doesn't feel good to have secrets
34:13does it
34:15no
34:16[Music]
34:18but i can tell you one thing is that we
34:20already know so
34:22you can't change that
34:24so what did what
34:26i know you did
34:28let's get back to
34:30how they got there why they got there
34:32okay but what happens to me
34:36well i don't know at this point i can
34:39tell you one thing i'm gonna sit here as
34:41long as it takes
34:42for you to get this off your chest okay
34:46do you know what i mean
34:48do it
34:49what then
34:54okay that's good to hear
34:57that's so positive
34:59we know that you weren't the one that
35:01pulled the trigger we know that
35:04i think again
35:05i'll be honest with you
35:10michael
35:11this clip really reveals
35:14a great deal about
35:16the interviewing technique of the
35:18detective it's almost as if he plays
35:21good cop and bad cop at the same time
35:25and what we're seeing is actually in
35:27this particular case it's not effective
35:29that you need a continuity of style and
35:32that switching style leads to confusion
35:35one of the things that we should make
35:37clear is that this technique is the
35:40technique that's taught
35:43to canadian and indeed american
35:46detectives to this day
35:48what is it for you that's inconsistent
35:50and not helpful given the fact that
35:52ultimately jennifer pan is going to be
35:54found guilty of the murder an attempted
35:56murder well it's not it's only helpful
35:59if you get the information that's that
36:01you're wanting if you're being able to
36:03answer the questions that you have
36:06that you're inquiring about
36:08and actually if it's leaving somebody's
36:10confused
36:12that actually
36:13it's not
36:15being
36:16successful in fulfilling your objectives
36:18of answering of the queries that you
36:20have and there's a danger with with that
36:23technique is that at some point if
36:25somebody feels so intimidated they all
36:28just go along and say whatever you want
36:29them to say just to end
36:32as you used earlier the word
36:33interrogation
36:34so what he's trying to do detective
36:36geets is trying to do he's testing our
36:39information that she's telling he's
36:42trying to make her feel relaxed and then
36:44trying to make her feel uncomfortable so
36:47this idea of going back and forth
36:49relaxing and then putting the person
36:50under pressure does that not work in
36:53your experience it all depends upon the
36:55person that you're working with and you
36:56have to vary your technique according to
36:59who it is that you're interviewing so
37:01there is never one standard approach
37:03which works for every individual
37:05everybody is different everybody is
37:07unique everybody needs to be approached
37:08in different way and you need to have a
37:10range of
37:11techniques and skills which you call
37:13upon and which you utilize in that
37:15particular moment when you're
37:16interviewing somebody so it relies a lot
37:18upon professional judgment rather than
37:20just adherence to a script about saying
37:23this is the way that you do it it will
37:25it may well work in some situations but
37:27it may well not work in others
37:31any hopes pan may have had of gaining
37:33the confidence of geets are dashed when
37:36he sheds his friendly and engaging
37:39demeanor and begins to become assertive
37:42step one of the read technique direct
37:45confrontation
37:47the read technique clearly states that
37:49an interrogator must try and discourage
37:52the suspect from denying his or her
37:55guilt
37:56true to form geets refuses to let
37:58jennifer get a word in edgeways she
38:01speaks little for the following 60
38:03minutes but he eventually offers her a
38:06way out
38:07as geets begins to accuse jennifer he
38:11inches his chair closer and closer to
38:14her until the pair are almost touching
38:16his burly stature bearing down on her he
38:20warns
38:21you're involved in this i know that
38:24the results he gains are astonishing and
38:27will condemn pan for the crime of
38:29matricide
38:31and in the final moments he brings pan
38:34as close to confession as her sense of
38:37honor and shame will ever allow
38:42okay you need to tell me
38:45how you got involved in this
38:48we know that jen
38:52you want to be a part of the solution
38:53not the problem
38:56you want to be a part of the solution
38:57here
39:00again
39:02okay
39:07what do you think should happen
39:09what would you like to see happen in
39:11this case
39:16what's that justice for your mom okay
39:21okay
39:25did you try to stop it that night yes
39:27how
39:28i wanted to go be with my parents i'd
39:30like to be with them
39:34not the problem
39:35i particularly like the idea
39:38that jennifer pan is in a seat very much
39:41like ours that's
39:42in one particular position
39:44but detective giza's chair
39:47is on wheels he can get closer and
39:50closer and closer to the person that
39:54he's interviewing
39:56what
39:57what does that do when he physically
39:59becomes closer to the person that he's
40:02interviewing what is that serving to
40:04help reveal well it all depends upon the
40:07person and their reaction to somebody
40:09coming close to them and whether or not
40:11they feel intimidated
40:13some will just capitulate others will
40:15become
40:16more resolved
40:17and um
40:19argumentative perhaps in that what not
40:22wanting to to actually engage and
40:24finding a challenge and will push back
40:28but although some people might react by
40:30seeing that closing of the space as
40:33making a more intimate environment and
40:36that intimacy might facilitate greater
40:39confession well it might or it might not
40:41it depends all upon the person's um
40:43personal space boundary
40:44um different people have different
40:46personal space boundaries some are
40:48individuals are quite happy for other
40:50individuals to come quite close to them
40:52others aren't
40:54but it is
40:55sort of a risky technique you have to be
40:57able to judge how close to get
41:02why didn't they stop for you
41:10you have to tell me that part and then
41:11we're going to work through it together
41:13so you're supposed to take the whole
41:15family out no just me
41:17okay so tell me how that happened then
41:21why did it change
41:24okay what do you know
41:28how come it was supposed to be you
41:30because i don't want to be here anymore
41:33so deeply entrenched uh is
41:36pan's
41:37sense of shame
41:39a sense of needing to avoid shame
41:43that even faced with incontrovertible
41:46evidence she still will not admit to her
41:50parents murder
41:54to admit to it would would
41:56be essentially self-destruction
41:58it's the same intensity of the sense of
42:02shame that we see here at the end of
42:05this story
42:06as actually
42:08was the initial
42:09um motivator the sense of shame in her
42:12lack of achievement um and not being
42:14able to face up to that face up to her
42:17parents is exactly she's she's uh it's
42:20that same emotion that drove the murder
42:22that we're seeing again here now
42:24there's a bitterness possibly in the
42:27realization that the wrong parent died
42:31and that's quite telling because her
42:33father was her
42:36tyrannical tormentor
42:38that she could never satisfy
42:41and she probably was genuinely grieving
42:43for her mother
42:45and i believe that
42:47[Music]
42:48and although you can never
42:51mitigate
42:53it to any significance
42:55her
42:56culpability
42:58you can still understand and have some
43:01compassion
43:02when you reflect on the life
43:05she lost early and never had
43:10i think for a lot of people it's very
43:12difficult for them to actually admit
43:15they want somebody to be killed and in
43:17this case she's easier for her to say oh
43:21i'm the target and they're fixating on
43:23me and they got it wrong rather than say
43:26she's actually encouraged other people
43:28to kill her parents and it's this
43:31this
43:32disconnection
43:34because quite clearly they didn't come
43:36to kill her they made no attempt to do
43:39any harm
43:40they clearly came in to do harm to the
43:42parents there's no way she can justify
43:45that or rationalize it because clearly
43:49that's not what happened
43:55this this isn't the straightforward case
43:57of just a kid that's gone wrong this is
43:59a straightforward case of murder
44:01ultimately but when you start looking at
44:04the antecedents of the family and look
44:07at the family background and the
44:08cultural and diversity aspect of that
44:10family and that group
44:12it was pressure it was absolute stress
44:15that that girl was living under so this
44:18isn't just about something that's gone
44:19wrong and it's an act of aggression in
44:21revenge this is about the girl feeling
44:24an absolute failure
44:26with no no no effort left in her life to
44:29do anything else she knew she couldn't
44:30succeed so the only thing she could do
44:32was get rid of the parents in order that
44:34she could at least move on or deny that
44:37shame on the family
44:38it's it's it would be iniquitous to say
44:42that this is a product of the tyranny of
44:45a parent
44:46or parents
44:48but
44:49this
44:50young woman does not
44:52strike me
44:54as being
44:55a murderer
44:57[Music]
44:59and yet she was and there's no getting
45:02away from that and i do believe that she
45:04had an ulterior motive of finance
45:06insurance financial rewards as well and
45:09in that sense she's culpable i think
45:11that was part of her motivation
45:15but the dynamic here of central impact
45:19is the father daughter
45:22and
45:23there has to be
45:26some burden
45:27of
45:30responsibility on the father
45:33[Music]
45:46[Music]
46:05[Music]
46:17you

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