Jeffrey Sachs: Disastrous NATO Summit: Toward Nuclear War with Russia — Transcript

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1. 0:00Welcome back. We have the great pleasure
2. 0:01of being joined today by Professor
3. 0:03Jeffrey Saxs. So, thank you very much
4. 0:05for joining in.
5. 0:07>> Of course. Great. Always great to be
6. 0:08with you, Glenn. Thank you.
7. 0:10>> So, the NATO summit in Anchor uh is over
8. 0:14now and um well, it's been let's say
9. 0:17interesting that is uh the militarism uh
10. 0:20and also the hostility against NATO's
11. 0:22enemies was seemingly dialed up and even
12. 0:25within NATO there were great tensions.
13. 0:28Trump, which is also known as Mark Rut's
14. 0:32daddy, turned out to be quite a deadbeat
15. 0:34dad. He's very abusive against his uh
16. 0:37well so-called allies in Europe. Uh
17. 0:40again, quite incredible to watch. Uh I
18. 0:42want to get your take though. What was
19. 0:44what did you take away from this uh NATO
20. 0:47summit?
21. 0:49I think basically the NATO
22. 0:52alliance as it were is
23. 0:56mostly in disarray. This is uh not a a
24. 1:01serious group. Uh not seriously
25. 1:05strategizing.
26. 1:07It was two days of Trumpisms. Uh he's
27. 1:11absolutely mentally uh unstable. It's we
28. 1:16can normalize it. We can laugh about it.
29. 1:19We can uh say that it's a a tactic.
30. 1:24He's a he's really uh something uh awful
31. 1:29and everyone plays along with it. So you
32. 1:32watch two days that are quite bizarre.
33. 1:34Uh he says that Spain is awful. We
34. 1:38should cut off all trade with Spain.
35. 1:40Spain's response is we have very nice
36. 1:43relations with the United States. All is
37. 1:45well. We had a charming chat. Uh the
38. 1:48United States president says
39. 1:51basically Greenland needs to be ours.
40. 1:54Okay, that's fine. Uh
41. 1:58uh no, it won't be.
42. 2:01This is not really an alliance right
43. 2:03now. And these are not meetings of
44. 2:05serious people. I'm sorry to say. Of
45. 2:10course, a lot of the talk was about
46. 2:14military spending, and it's a club to
47. 2:17encourage everybody to spend more,
48. 2:19especially on US weaponry uh and to talk
49. 2:23about war.
50. 2:25But there used to be a time when uh
51. 2:28great issues were discussed in a serious
52. 2:30way. Uh and that time is long over. The
53. 2:36United States is uh basically
54. 2:39uh without leadership. It flails around.
55. 2:44Trump, as I said, is
56. 2:48is obviously the emperor without
57. 2:50clothes. Uh and um
58. 2:55I would say that it this is just bizarre
59. 2:58life. Every day is something bizarre.
60. 3:02And that's maybe Trump's survival
61. 3:04tactic. Every day crowds out the day
62. 3:07before. Uh and now we're on to the
63. 3:11renewed uh fighting in uh with Iran. Uh
64. 3:17and the the NATO meeting uh will soon be
65. 3:22forgotten. That's that's my basic take.
66. 3:25But it's not harmless. It's uh a whole
67. 3:29western world that is pretty much a
68. 3:32drift without strategy, quite nasty, uh
69. 3:37engaged in a lot of the deadly war. Uh
70. 3:41without anyone uh seemingly aware of the
71. 3:45real risks of all of this, uh these
72. 3:49people distinguish themselves by and
73. 3:51large as being fools.
74. 3:53>> Yeah. for the US president refers to the
75. 3:56Iranian negotiators as scum. It's quite
76. 3:59extraordinary that this has become the
77. 4:02the new normal, if you will. But als but
78. 4:05also the rhetoric against Yeah. Sorry.
79. 4:06Go ahead.
80. 4:07>> I was just going to say that the fact
81. 4:09that this is normalized
82. 4:11that we shrug and well that's just Trump
83. 4:17is not an adequate response to this. We
84. 4:22are in hot wars. They're extremely
85. 4:25dangerous. People are being killed in
86. 4:28large numbers. Life is not a joke, but
87. 4:32it's treated as a shrug or a joke, and
88. 4:36it is not. So, it's on the one side
89. 4:40quite serious, but the serious point is
90. 4:44that nothing serious is actually
91. 4:46discussed by these people. Nothing
92. 4:49honest, nothing serious. Uh and uh that
93. 4:52is shocking in a world at war.
94. 4:57>> Yeah. And uh well the European leaders
95. 4:59they continue to call for deeper strikes
96. 5:02into Russia with well their own weapons
97. 5:05based on their own intelligence and
98. 5:06targeting. And the the objective is
99. 5:09apparently to force the Russians to the
100. 5:12negotiation table. But this is by
101. 5:14European leaders who still after 4 and a
102. 5:16half years still boycott the diplomacy.
103. 5:19So, it is it's quite strange and no one
104. 5:22seemingly can call them out because
105. 5:24nobody wants to be seen as being, you
106. 5:26know, pro-Russian by referring to
107. 5:28objective reality. But now we see the
108. 5:30American side as well. Marco Rubio
109. 5:32argued that um attacking Russia will
110. 5:35help to advance peace. Trump made a
111. 5:37casual reference to a s um imposing a
112. 5:41nofly zone and also of course they will
113. 5:43now allow uh well the licensing of um
114. 5:47Patriot missiles to be manufactured in
115. 5:49Ukraine.
116. 5:51Is the US now getting into this war
117. 5:54again or deeper into this war? Because
118. 5:56uh this is very different than the
119. 5:58rhetoric we saw from Trump after his uh
120. 6:01well taking over power uh the second
121. 6:03time.
122. 6:05Trump campaigned
123. 6:07on the basis of the end of these useless
124. 6:10wars. But the American wars are driven
125. 6:15by the militaryindustrial
126. 6:17digital complex. I think it's important
127. 6:20to add digital now because uh big tech
128. 6:24is absolutely a party and a profit
129. 6:28center of these wars. And um when Trump
130. 6:33uh would take any kind of move to uh
131. 6:38find a diplomatic uh solution uh most of
132. 6:44the US political class, most of
133. 6:46Washington uh in both houses of Congress
134. 6:50uh and throughout the uh the Pentagon,
135. 6:53maybe not the generals so much, but uh
136. 6:56uh a lot of former generals who are now
137. 7:00in the uh military contracting uh
138. 7:04companies uh they strongly objected and
139. 7:07then Trump would change course because
140. 7:09he's a a weak and bullish man to to
141. 7:12begin with and he does not have a
142. 7:15strategy
143. 7:18and he does not understand
144. 7:21the job that he has almost at all. So, I
145. 7:25would say Glenn that uh you could say
146. 7:28that there was a a change of rhetoric
147. 7:31because Trump thought it's just fine. Uh
148. 7:35that the war is escalating. Yes, Trump
149. 7:39said whether it's meaningful or not that
150. 7:42uh
151. 7:44Ukraine will be able to uh produce
152. 7:48Patriot missile systems and so forth.
153. 7:53But the truth is that rhetoric never
154. 7:55went away in Washington. Uh Trump seemed
155. 7:59to be
156. 8:02trying to chart a slightly different
157. 8:06course, but it was always ineffectual.
158. 8:09It it was always bouncing around back to
159. 8:12sanctions and deadlines and uh and
160. 8:15threats to Russia. So this latest round
161. 8:19is not some kind of decisive turn of US
162. 8:24policy. Basically
163. 8:28the US government and I would say uh the
164. 8:31governments of the major countries are
165. 8:33driven by a
166. 8:37profit center war machine. Uh this is
167. 8:43the dominant part of US politics. Uh, it
168. 8:46would take a strong president with a
169. 8:49clear vision and a capacity to talk to
170. 8:54the American people other than in
171. 8:58idiotic posts on True Social to be able
172. 9:01to make a change because the president
173. 9:05would have to talk over this powerful
174. 9:07lobby. Trump can't do that. He doesn't
175. 9:11have much interest in doing it. Silicon
176. 9:14Valley uh especially led by the likes of
177. 9:18Palunteer, but almost all of big tech
178. 9:22right now is uh making a lot of money
179. 9:26putting its new models to work in these
180. 9:29wars. Uh they like these wars because
181. 9:33they also get to test their weapon
182. 9:35systems. They get to upgrade the
183. 9:37systems. They get big military contracts
184. 9:41and so forth. So
185. 9:44what happened in the last couple of days
186. 9:46is I would say par for the course. uh
187. 9:50and the fact that Trump failed to uh end
188. 9:56the war as he promised he would. The war
189. 9:59in Ukraine with the phone call and
190. 10:01within 24 hours is a sign of uh the
191. 10:05underlying
192. 10:07uh dynamics of US politics on the one
193. 10:10side and the sheer incompetence,
194. 10:14ignorance and foolishness of this man on
195. 10:16the other side. He can't really do
196. 10:19anything that reaches a level of
197. 10:22strategy as opposed to uh hourly
198. 10:26tactics. Tactics he can do hour to hour,
199. 10:29though not consistently, but strategy
200. 10:32he's unable to do.
201. 10:35Well, uh, [clears throat] Mark Ruted,
202. 10:37NATO Secretary General, he seemingly
203. 10:39threw NATO's weight behind the US war on
204. 10:41Iran by arguing that this, uh, America's
205. 10:45decision to go back to war against Iran
206. 10:47was totally justified and essentially,
207. 10:50yeah, giving his full support. Um, uh,
208. 10:53however, it also
209. 10:56um sends a very direct signal to the
210. 10:59Russians that is that NATO is not
211. 11:01talking about peace anymore, only war.
212. 11:03And we saw now that uh the the Kremlin
213. 11:06spokesperson uh Dimmitri Pescov was
214. 11:09arguing that uh well before this summit
215. 11:12as well that the that the special
216. 11:14military operation uh it has now become
217. 11:16a war because of NATO's involvement. Uh
218. 11:19there doesn't seem to be much effort
219. 11:20anymore to prevent uh this march towards
220. 11:24World War II.
221. 11:27But I I did want to ask you though, how
222. 11:28do you see this statement by the
223. 11:30Russians? How will this change? uh um
224. 11:34are they simply have they given up on uh
225. 11:36the US uh diplomacy? Do they see it as a
226. 11:39fraud like in Iran? Or how do you make
227. 11:41sense of these uh new developments?
228. 11:44>> I don't think anyone in the Russian
229. 11:46leadership gives any heed whatsoever to
230. 11:51the US or to US diplomacy. I think that
231. 11:55they
232. 11:57try not to
233. 11:59antagonize Trump unnecessarily,
234. 12:02but nobody uh in the Russian leadership
235. 12:07is expecting Trump in any way to play a
236. 12:11a a decisive or even an active role in
237. 12:16uh stopping this war. Um that's over. I
238. 12:20think they had some hope early on, but I
239. 12:24think what's happened proves Putin's
240. 12:28famous adage from a 2017 interview when
241. 12:32he famously said uh that he had by then
242. 12:36worked with several presidents. They
243. 12:38come into office with ideas, but then
244. 12:41men in dark suits uh and uh blue ties
245. 12:45and briefcases come and explain how the
246. 12:48world really is to these presidents and
247. 12:51you never hear of those ideas again. So
248. 12:54Putin had a lot of experience and I've
249. 12:57spoken to Russian leaders over the
250. 12:59years. They have a lot of experience
251. 13:01knowing that presidents come and go. But
252. 13:06the US
253. 13:07security state, the military industrial
254. 13:11digital complex is the the deeper part
255. 13:15of American policy. So, I don't think
256. 13:17that they ever uh absolutely were uh
257. 13:21betting on the US to resolve this
258. 13:25conflict, but I think they were hoping
259. 13:27that maybe Trump would do something. And
260. 13:31I think that they put some effort into
261. 13:33that the first year, but by uh already
262. 13:36the end of 2025, I think they had really
263. 13:39given up on this. And the statements
264. 13:41that they're making now are basically
265. 13:45again not to uh go out of their way to
266. 13:48antagonize Trump, but on the other hand
267. 13:51are very clear to say we're basically at
268. 13:54war. We don't think diplomacy is going
269. 13:57to solve anything. We're going to win
270. 14:00this war. And I think Russia has largely
271. 14:05already for years, but certainly now uh
272. 14:09given up on the west so-called meaning
273. 14:13uh the European Union, Britain and uh
274. 14:17the United States and Canada and it
275. 14:20views its future uh basically as a
276. 14:23Eurasian uh future and a future with
277. 14:27other parts of the developing world as
278. 14:30well.
279. 14:31And my view is that that's essentially
280. 14:34China's view. Uh it's essentially Iran's
281. 14:37view. Uh it's essentially the view of uh
282. 14:41most of Eurasia outside of Europe. Um,
283. 14:47and this is, I think, where we're
284. 14:49heading, which is a a a western world
285. 14:53which is dug in to try to protect
286. 14:59ancient and disappearing prerogatives
287. 15:02and advantages that they don't have
288. 15:04anymore. uh and uh the rest of the world
289. 15:08uh saying
290. 15:11we don't expect anything from you uh
291. 15:14except maybe war and we'll meet that uh
292. 15:17if necessary. Of course, the disaster in
293. 15:20all of this is that uh the war kills
294. 15:25vast numbers of Ukrainians. It solves
295. 15:28absolutely nothing. And there is no way
296. 15:32possible
297. 15:34for Russia to be defeated other than uh
298. 15:38bringing us to nuclear war because
299. 15:40Russia is not going to surrender to uh
300. 15:44strikes
301. 15:47of uh Western support uh into deep
302. 15:51Russia. it's going to escalate and if
303. 15:54pushed hard enough and if those strikes
304. 15:57were costly enough it will escalate to
305. 16:00nuclear war. And so the whole idea of
306. 16:04these uh western governments is a kind
307. 16:07of profound uh ignorance uh and
308. 16:12gratuitousness and recklessness
309. 16:15that is astounding. Now, one thing that
310. 16:19should give us some
311. 16:22perspective and and pause is that all of
312. 16:25these governments, Trump, uh, Mcronone,
313. 16:29Mertz, uh,
314. 16:32all of them are unpopular.
315. 16:35Uh, the publics in the United States and
316. 16:38Europe don't want these wars. They don't
317. 16:41want the military escalation. The latest
318. 16:45Gallup poll show the Ukrainians want
319. 16:47this war to end, even if it means the
320. 16:51kinds of concessions that would end the
321. 16:54war. This is very clear. So what we have
322. 16:58is a class of political leaders that uh
323. 17:02operate um in an anacronistic way
324. 17:06believing in western dominance and
325. 17:09western power not understanding the
326. 17:11changes of the world and not uh
327. 17:15following or understanding their own
328. 17:17public opinion. So there are I suppose
329. 17:22three ways that all of this can break in
330. 17:25the end. One is that Russia can outright
331. 17:28achieve its military objectives. This is
332. 17:32certainly quite possible. Uh some would
333. 17:37say quite probable. The other is that
334. 17:40this escalates to a nuclear war. I think
335. 17:44that this is absolutely possible because
336. 17:47we are led by the most incompetent
337. 17:50people imaginable right now from Trump
338. 17:53and Mertz and Mcronone and many others.
339. 17:56And the third is that finally these
340. 17:59wararmongering
341. 18:01governments and wararmongering lobbies
342. 18:04are thrown out by publics that are
343. 18:06completely disgusted by them. So Mertz's
344. 18:11approval rating is at an all-time low
345. 18:13for German chancellors. The same with
346. 18:15the president Mcronone. Trump's approval
347. 18:18rating
348. 18:20somehow still is above 35%.
349. 18:24uh but it's under 40% and his
350. 18:26disapproval rating is around 60%. And we
351. 18:30have an election coming up that if it's
352. 18:32actually run fairly and counted fairly
353. 18:35is still with all of the shenanigans
354. 18:38going on and there are many of them and
355. 18:41all of the Supreme Court rulings in
356. 18:43Trump's favor still likely to put uh the
357. 18:47opposition into a majority in at least
358. 18:50one of the houses of Congress. So maybe,
359. 18:54just maybe, our very weak uh and uh
360. 18:58seemingly failing democratic
361. 19:01institutions could end up being a check
362. 19:04uh on this uh quite miserable political
363. 19:07class that we have and that would be the
364. 19:10peaceful way out in the end.
365. 19:14>> Yeah, I would like to see that. But uh
366. 19:16it appears that the worse the war the
367. 19:18the war goes uh the more they rely on
368. 19:21the war. That is uh when the economies
369. 19:23of Europe gets weaker they look towards
370. 19:25more militarism for economic and
371. 19:27technological development. When uh the
372. 19:30our leaders lose support from their
373. 19:33public because of the war. They then use
374. 19:35the war to crush the scent by
375. 19:37essentially dismissing all opposition as
376. 19:39being you know some pro Kremlin
377. 19:42conspiracy. And also when we see the
378. 19:45west fragmenting we hear that you know
379. 19:47we essentially get the message that
380. 19:48fighting Russia is the new unifying
381. 19:50idea. So, it's u I I don't see the
382. 19:54course correction just yet, but
383. 19:55hopefully
384. 19:56>> Glenn, I think all of that is exactly
385. 19:58right, of course, except that the public
386. 20:02is not being pulled along uh in France
387. 20:07with Maria Lean now contesting the
388. 20:12presidency next year, that will become
389. 20:15France's major political drama, not
390. 20:19Ukraine. uh uh in Russia with the IFD uh
391. 20:24surging in the polls and saying uh that
392. 20:28Germany needs a completely different
393. 20:30approach based on diplomacy visa to be
394. 20:33Russia that is a potential break and in
395. 20:38the United States the overwhelming
396. 20:41opposition of the public to Israel and
397. 20:46what h happened the genocide in Gaza and
398. 20:49now to The war in Iran is also uh
399. 20:53potentially
400. 20:55uh a change of direction in American
401. 20:58politics. I grant you none of this is
402. 21:02simple uh because the
403. 21:05deep military war machine is extremely
404. 21:11powerful in the US and Europe. uh and uh
405. 21:14these politicians are basically
406. 21:18operating mouthpieces for a much deeper
407. 21:23uh set of narrow interests but quite
408. 21:27powerful narrow interests. But I think
409. 21:29that it is encouraging that the public
410. 21:32does not accept this. And um
411. 21:37that means that even with all of the
412. 21:41absolutely clear resistance of the
413. 21:44political class, and you're completely
414. 21:46right on it, there's nothing that's
415. 21:48changing the dynamics within this group
416. 21:51of politicians.
417. 21:53But what might change it is political
418. 21:56defeat uh by outside parties that are
419. 22:01tapping into the true public opinion.
420. 22:06Uh I know you have to run so let me just
421. 22:08ask a very quick brief question that is
422. 22:11uh the absence of strategy as you said
423. 22:13is quite evident but uh what what do you
424. 22:16think are the objectives now of the
425. 22:18Americans and versus the Europeans in
426. 22:22terms of well their main rival as we saw
427. 22:25at the summit which is Russia. Uh what
428. 22:28is it that they actually want to achieve
429. 22:29here? Is it simply to bring the
430. 22:31Americans into the deeper into the war
431. 22:33or how are you reading this? Because um
432. 22:35it doesn't seem rational to push this
433. 22:38hard for a war with the world's largest
434. 22:40nuclear power.
435. 22:42We should uh of course start from the
436. 22:44proposition that since 1945
437. 22:48and certainly since 1991 at the supposed
438. 22:52end of the Cold War, the deep state uh
439. 22:56or militaryindustrial complex intention
440. 23:00has been to weaken Russia in any
441. 23:04opportunistic way possible to support
442. 23:07whatever uh insurgencies on Russia's
443. 23:11periphery.
444. 23:12to surround Russia in the Black Sea with
445. 23:14NATO enlargement to try to create unrest
446. 23:18by so-called economic tools, the
447. 23:22unilateral sanctions, uh the
448. 23:25confiscation of Russia's money and so
449. 23:27forth. And I don't think those goals
450. 23:30have changed in again uh the basic
451. 23:35driver of foreign policy in the United
452. 23:38States, the CIA uh and the military
453. 23:42contractors and now the palunteers and
454. 23:45others uh of the world.
455. 23:48They don't count lives. They don't count
456. 23:51money. Uh they uh are out to sell their
457. 23:55goods. Uh and uh if the US goes broke in
458. 23:58the process, that's just fine. We've uh
459. 24:01created a class of uh wararmongering
460. 24:05billionaires uh that speak publicly
461. 24:09about how important these wars of by the
462. 24:13western world are. Um
463. 24:17so th this is really our uh
464. 24:20ongoing situation. uh and uh it is the
465. 24:25basic motivation that is either going to
466. 24:28drive us to complete disaster which is
467. 24:32brewing right now um or to some kind of
468. 24:37break in the politics because the public
469. 24:42can finally is able to use the tools of
470. 24:45democracy to make their views heard.
471. 24:49Admittedly, that hasn't happened. And
472. 24:52the United States, you know, for decades
473. 24:54pleased Western European politics to
474. 24:58make sure that no anti-American politics
475. 25:02could survive.
476. 25:04And um that kind of placing continues
477. 25:08until today. But I would say most of our
478. 25:12western
479. 25:13countries are in political crisis right
480. 25:16now because of the divergence of the
481. 25:19dominant interests uh class interests of
482. 25:23this military militarized state and the
483. 25:27broader public opinion which understands
484. 25:30that this is this is a disaster. So I
485. 25:34think um we we will continue to
486. 25:37flounder. Don't expect anything from
487. 25:41Trump. Uh anything sensible, any
488. 25:44direction that is sustained. Uh he
489. 25:49becomes uh
490. 25:51more and more incoherent and less and
491. 25:53less relevant actually except that he
492. 25:56loves to dominate the media and the
493. 25:58media love to pay attention to every
494. 26:02idiotic utterance of this man.
495. 26:05Well, Jeff, thank you so much for taking
496. 26:07the time and um yes, I know you have a
497. 26:09busy day there in Usbekistan. So, thanks
498. 26:11again.
499. 26:11>> Yeah, great to be with you. Thanks.