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Jeffrey Deskovic May 16, 2020 — Transcript

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0:00geoffery desk avec then an 18 then 18
0:03years old was wrongfully convicted for
0:05the 1989 rape and murder of a classmate
0:08in January 2006 the innocent the
0:13Innocence Project took on desk of xscape
0:16and established by DNA evidence that he
0:20was in fact innocent and that another
0:22person had not only committed that
0:24murder but had gone on to commit another
0:28murder Jeffrey go ahead stages yours
0:35thank you and for thank you for coming
0:38thanks for having me
0:40happy Mother's Day to everybody by the
0:41way in 19m can everyone hear me yes okay
0:48in 1989 a classmate of mine was found
0:51murdered and raped Pink's kill was a
0:53small city in Westchester County New
0:56York
0:57the suburbs murders were pretty rare so
1:00when this murder happened understandably
1:01created an atmosphere of fear rumor
1:03paranoia parents were concerned with
1:05their own safety as well as the safety
1:07of their children and high school I was
1:09quiet was to myself I didn't participate
1:11in a lot of organized sports this made
1:14me seem strange to the kids in the high
1:16school in the course of the police
1:18investigation the police spoke with many
1:21students from the school and some of
1:23them told the police they might want to
1:24talk to me because I didn't quite fit in
1:26this is what the police said initially
1:28attracted them to me the other factor
1:32which they said attracted them to me is
1:33they said that I was overly upset at the
1:35victim having been murdered they
1:37interpreted my being sensitive and said
1:40ameno as being an outward sign that I
1:43was sorry for what I had done
1:45um okay give me one second here this is
1:51an issue with the volume
1:58and Jeff I think they'll have to turn
2:01their volume up I'm not sure you can
2:03really control it okay all right so on
2:10so I'll repeat the last part so the
2:14police interpreted by being emotional
2:17and sentimental as an outward sign that
2:19I was sorry for what I had done in
2:22addition the Peekskill Police Department
2:25they got a psychological profile from
2:27the NYPD which purported to have the
2:31psychological characteristics of what
2:33the actual perpetrator would be like so
2:35there was a type of reinforcing factor
2:37for about six weeks the police played
2:40this cat-and-mouse game with me in which
2:42half the time they would talk to me as
2:44if I was a suspect and the other half
2:46the time they would pretend like they
2:48needed my help to solve the crime they
2:50would say things like the kids won't
2:52talk freely around us but they will
2:55around you let us know if you hear
2:57anything stop in from time to time they
3:01made me feel important they made me the
3:03center of attention they would ask me
3:06opinion questions and congratulate me
3:09that my opinion was correct before I was
3:12a teenager I might the fantasy career
3:15that I wanted to have when I grew up was
3:17actually to be a cop so that along with
3:20my age 16 was how the police were able
3:24to pull the wool over my eyes as to the
3:25absurdity that a 16 year old would be
3:28able to assist them in an active
3:30homicide investigation I came from a
3:33single-parent household my mother my
3:34father was never involved in my life in
3:36any capacity and that directly
3:39intersected with the police technique of
3:42good cop bad cop otherwise known as MA
3:45and Jeff and which one officer takes on
3:47a more aggressive role where as his
3:49partner pretends to be opposed to what's
3:52going on yet somehow powerless to
3:54intervene the purpose of course of this
3:56tactic is that when a person being
3:59questioned the suspect becomes
4:01frightened it's only natural that you
4:02would look to a friendly face for
4:05assistance
4:07eventually they got me to agree to take
4:11a polygraph test by telling me that some
4:13new information had come in to the
4:15police file and they wanted to share
4:19that with me and that would put me in a
4:21better position to help them first
4:24though I would have to take and pass a
4:26polygraph so the next day rather than
4:29report to school I instead went to the
4:32police station for this test because it
4:35was a school day that meant neither my
4:37brother mine neither my mother or
4:38grandmother with whom I lived they had
4:41no idea that anything was wrong as far
4:43as they were concerned I was in school
4:44and therefore they did not call around
4:46looking for me they drove me to the town
4:50of Brewster which was in Putnam County
4:51whereas I was a native of Peekskill in
4:53Westchester County so was about 40
4:56minutes away by car and the reason why
4:58that's important is that that meant that
4:59I was no longer able to leave on my own
5:01I was have said depending upon the
5:04police there were three officers who
5:07came with me from Peekskill to Brewster
5:09but then there was also the Putnam
5:10County Sheriff's investigator he
5:12polygraphist who was dressed as a
5:15civilian and he was pretending not to be
5:17a police officer he never read me my
5:21rights I did not have an attorney
5:23present I wasn't given anything to eat
5:25the entire time that I was there he gave
5:29me a four-page brochure which explained
5:32how the polygraph worked but I had a lot
5:34of big words and it was I didn't
5:35understand but then I pushed past my own
5:38concern by thinking well I'm there to
5:40help the police what does it matter
5:42let's just get on with it so from there
5:46I was put into a small room and I was
5:48given countless cups of coffee seems
5:51fairly clear in hindsight that the
5:53purpose of the coffee was to make me
5:55nervous
5:56from Narrows attached to the polygraph
5:59machine and so now I was fairly a mobile
6:01and from there he then launched into his
6:04third degree tactics so he raised his
6:07voice at me he invaded my personal space
6:09he kept asking me the same questions
6:12over and over again he seemed to be
6:14getting more and more ferocious as each
6:18hour passed as each hour passed
6:21my fear increased in proportion to the
6:23time he kept that routine up for six and
6:26a half to seven hours towards the end
6:30the interrogation he made a statement to
6:32me he said what do you mean you didn't
6:35do it you just told me through the test
6:37result that you did we just want you to
6:39verbally confirm it when he said that to
6:42me that really shot my fear through the
6:44roof at that point the officer who had
6:46been pretending to be my friend he came
6:49in the room and told me that the other
6:51officers were going to harm me but that
6:53he had been holding them off but could
6:55not do so any longer you have to help
6:58yourself here you understand it well
7:00considering that I had maintained my
7:02innocence for the previous for the
7:05previous six and a half to seven hours
7:08it was clear what he meant by that they
7:11want to meet you confess when it was
7:13added that if I did as they wanted that
7:15they would stop what they were doing
7:16that I could go home afterwards being
7:19young naive frightened sixteen years old
7:23not thinking about the long term instead
7:25only being concerned my safety in the
7:28moment I was in fear of my life the fact
7:30that I didn't know where I was and that
7:32nobody else knew where I was loom very
7:35large in my mind I had not been used to
7:38talking with adult males you know let
7:41alone the way that that also was
7:43conducting himself and so being
7:46overwhelmed emotionally and
7:47psychologically plus the push-pull
7:50dynamic on one hand the possibility of
7:52harm had been introduced and on the
7:54other hand he had thrown me this false
7:56life preserver I took I decided to make
8:01up a story based upon the information
8:04which they had given me and of course
8:05the interrogation that day and in the
8:07six weeks run up to it as well as some
8:09items from the newspaper by the time the
8:12interrogation was finished I was curled
8:14up into a fetal position crying
8:15uncontrollably needless to say I was
8:18arrested I was charged with a murder and
8:20rape now before I went to trial the
8:24results of a DNA test came in from the
8:26FBI lab showing that semen found in the
8:29victim did not match but rather than
8:31acknowledged they made a mistake they
8:32instead considered the process
8:34full speed ahead in order to explain
8:37away the DNA evidence the prosecutor got
8:40the medical examiner to commit fraud
8:42when there's an autopsy done this
8:44written and audio notes which are taken
8:46as findings are made there was only six
8:49months after doing that autopsy and only
8:52in response to the DNA not matching me
8:54that suddenly this medical examiner
8:57claimed that he remembered that he
8:59forgot to document medical evidence
9:01showing that the victim a 15 year old
9:04immigrant from Colombia who had been in
9:06the country for about a year and a half
9:08eating a pretty sheltered life she never
9:10went anywhere unless she was accompanied
9:12by her older sister or her parents that
9:15she had been sexually active which is
9:18what opened the door for the prosecutor
9:19to argue that it didn't matter that the
9:22DNA didn't match me that didn't mean I
9:25was innocent it was just yet another
9:28person who she had supposedly slept with
9:31prior to Maya murdering and raping her
9:34taking it a step further he actually
9:37named another youth by name that he
9:38claimed he had had this and had had this
9:41encounter with the victim yet he never
9:43said the proper evidentiary foundation
9:45for that he never had a DNA test
9:48performed when this other youth he never
9:51even called him as a witness to give
9:53verbal testimony to that effect he
9:55simply made the unsupported argument to
9:57the jury at the same time the public
10:01defendant that I had essentially didn't
10:04defend me
10:04he never interviewed her called as a
10:06witness my alibi I was actually playing
10:08wiffle ball when the crime happened he
10:11rarely met with me whenever he would
10:13meet with me and I try to explain to him
10:15that I was innocent and what had
10:16happened in the interrogation room he
10:18was always shutting me up one time he
10:21told me he didn't care if I was guilty
10:23or innocent my lawyer should have never
10:27represented me in the first place
10:29because of a conflict of interest
10:31there's other you that the prosecutor
10:32was falsely claiming had slept with the
10:34victim was represented not only by
10:36another member of Westchester County
10:38legally but also specifically by the
10:42lawyer who was supposed to be
10:45supervising him in my case
10:47and so that conflict prevented the
10:49defense from calling him as asking him
10:51for a DNA sample or from calling him as
10:55a witness when it was time to
10:58cross-examine the medical examiner my
11:01lawyer stood up an open court in as if
11:03it with a big smile on his face said to
11:06the medical examiner you're gonna be
11:08pleased to know that I don't have a
11:11single question for you when I had to
11:17decide if I was gonna have a bench trial
11:19which is decided by a judge or a jury
11:21trial my lawyer came to me one day and
11:24told me that the trial judge came to him
11:27off the record and told him to pick a
11:29jury because he didn't want to be
11:31responsible for finding me not guilty my
11:35lawyer was supposed to put that on the
11:36record and asked him to recuse himself
11:38because number one it was not proper for
11:40him to limit my decision that way
11:42secondly that suggests bias you know and
11:46perhaps that the judge was feeling some
11:48public pressure because it you know
11:50every time I made a court appearance it
11:53was a major media moment with virtually
11:56all the coverage from a guilt
11:57presumptive oriented perspective when I
12:03was interrogated money the interrogation
12:06was not videotaped it was not audio
12:08taped there was no signed confession
12:11there was simply the officer's word for
12:13it and as a result of that they were
12:17able they were able to leave out the
12:19threat and false promise out of their
12:22testimony so I wanted to testify at the
12:26pre-trial hearing so whenever there's a
12:28statements made the court has to hold a
12:30pre-trial hearing to determine whether
12:32or not the suspect was given their
12:36rights and whether any statements that
12:38they made were voluntary so because it
12:42wasn't that the statements hadn't been
12:44videotaped or audio tape I wanted to
12:46take the stand and testify as to those
12:49facts but my lawyer wouldn't allow me to
12:52he told me that he hadn't decided if I
12:55was going to testify at the trial or not
12:56and that because nobody tells the same
12:59story in a hundred percent the same way
13:01you
13:02there was any kind of variation between
13:03my trial testimony in the pretrial
13:05testimony that the prosecutor could use
13:08that to make it appear as if I was lying
13:10even if I was not but that really didn't
13:14make too much sense because first of all
13:16if the judge had believes me then the
13:17statements would have been ruled
13:18involuntary and therefore not have been
13:21admissible and lacking that they would
13:23not have been any other wouldn't have
13:25been a trial because they didn't have
13:26any other evidence secondly if it really
13:29went that badly I didn't have to testify
13:31at the trial and if I if I didn't in
13:34there's no way that the prior testimony
13:36could have been used but then when I got
13:38to the trial he wouldn't allow me to
13:40testify there either he told me that his
13:43personal win-loss record was
13:45significantly better when his clients
13:46didn't testify as compared to when they
13:48did that's probably true because most of
13:52his clients probably have a criminal
13:54record and if they took the stand the
13:56prosecutor would be allowed to ask
13:57questions about that about that case but
14:02that didn't apply to me because I never
14:03been arrested before for anything but
14:07then secondly I was gonna say the second
14:15reason he gave not for not allowing me
14:17to testify as he told me that it wasn't
14:19his job to prove that I was innocent it
14:21was up to the prosecutor to prove that I
14:23was guilty and he didn't think that it
14:25happened while that might be a legal
14:30principle it doesn't actually work that
14:33way in real life in reality if your
14:34client is charged with a crime that they
14:37haven't committed you have to try to
14:38prove that they're innocent or else you
14:39run a risk of them possibly being
14:41wrongfully convicted that's particularly
14:43so in a case where a confession is going
14:46to be used as evidence where there's an
14:4780 percent conviction rate in such cases
14:51I mean the general public don't believe
14:54that the innocent president innocent
14:56person would confess and so if you're
14:59defending a case like that you know you
15:01have to answer that confession you have
15:03to explain that confession you have to
15:05disprove as many different aspects of
15:08the confession as you can in order to
15:11then tie it together in closing
15:12arguments towards your general argument
15:14to the
15:15as is false and coerced except that he
15:19didn't do any of that a need or luck I
15:23guess it's not too surprising that the
15:25jury found me guilty I'll never forget
15:28the day I was found guilty I felt like I
15:30was in some sort of nightmarish
15:32alternative reality because to my way of
15:34thinking at least up into that point in
15:36time only the guilty were convicted yet
15:39yet they said what they did and I was
15:41taken into custody on the beat on the on
15:45the day of the sentence on the day of
15:47the sentencing of I begged the judge to
15:49overturn the verdict because I was
15:51innocent and I referenced the DNA to
15:53support my contention he actually told
15:55me on the record maybe you are innocent
15:58conceding that there was a doubt how
16:00could there not have been a doubt the
16:02DNA didn't match me that didn't lead him
16:05though to step up for justice and
16:07exercise his discretion by overturning
16:09the verdict but she could have done by
16:11reversing any number of rulings that he
16:13had made against me in the course of the
16:14trial instead he took the easy
16:16politically expedient way out which was
16:19the sentence beat to a term of
16:20imprisonment a life I would like to
16:24share with you a little bit about my
16:25prison experience let me say that
16:29because I was charged as an adult that
16:31meant I was sentenced as an adult and I
16:33was therefore sent to a men's
16:35maximum-security prison I still remember
16:38the first day I having I remember having
16:41on handcuffs and a chain around my waist
16:43and my legs fastened together as well as
16:45fastened to the legs of the prisoner on
16:47the bus next to me I remember how large
16:50the prison wall loom and how menacing
16:51the barbed wire appeared I don't mind
16:54sharing with you that at 17 years of
16:56mayo being 17 years old I was extremely
16:59frightened I also had the built-in
17:02handicap of knowing that if any of the
17:04prisoners there discovered when I was
17:05incarcerated for that that was a rape
17:08along with their murderer that that
17:09would serve as motivation on their part
17:11to assault me because in prison there's
17:13a vigilante mentality towards people
17:15have been convicted of sex offenses the
17:18guards themselves were obstacles to be
17:20sure some were professional and did
17:22their job yet there were others who came
17:24to work and brought their personal
17:27problems into the facility
17:28placing there a question on to the
17:30prisoners then there were other guards
17:33who just wanted to do their 8 hours and
17:35go home and they didn't care what
17:37happened while they were there while
17:38that might be an ideal attitude that
17:40you'd want a guard to have if you had to
17:42be incarcerated it didn't actually work
17:44out that way in real life because it
17:45would not be unusual for them to look
17:47the other way and walk in the opposite
17:49direction when violence was occurring so
17:51as to be able to avoid breaking things
17:53up and filing paperwork afterwards then
17:56there were other guards who even their
17:57peers disliked because the manner was to
18:00conduct themselves on a day-to-day basis
18:02made it likely that prisoner to stare
18:03violence could occur but that a riot
18:05could ensue which had the impact of
18:07sucking everybody in yet nobody ever
18:10bothered to reel them in not their
18:11co-workers nor the people who supposedly
18:13were there to supervise them there was a
18:17system of maintaining order in a prison
18:19known as keep lock which involved a
18:21variety of sanctions being imposed on
18:22the prisoners that they were found
18:23guilty of having broken a prison rule
18:26those sanctions included being kept in a
18:28Cell 23 hours a day out of the 24 they
18:32would send you less food sometimes the
18:33food would be three or four days old you
18:35could take two showers one week and
18:37three the next rather than being able to
18:39shower daily as the rest of the
18:40population their idea of complying with
18:43the court mandated one hour a day
18:44recreation consisted of putting the
18:46prisoners in a small caged area with
18:48maybe a pull-up bar in it if you were
18:50lucky you would not be able to use the
18:53phone while you were on that status
18:55there were there was plenty of violence
18:58in the prison
18:58elmira where I spent 13 and a half of
19:01the 16 years there was three or four
19:03stabbings of cuttings every day plenty
19:06of violence that did not involve weapons
19:07and there was a lot of gang activity
19:09taking kill movie there was a general
19:12atmosphere of violence and adrenaline
19:14that permeated the air there were
19:16several times in the course of my
19:18incarceration in which I was assaulted
19:20one time in which I nearly lost my life
19:22in addition to dealing with that
19:24physicality I was also subjected to
19:26those sanctions because in prison if you
19:28were defending yourself and obviously
19:30that meant that you were fighting while
19:35I was in prison I tried to minimize the
19:37loss that I was experiencing I obtained
19:39a GED I completed an associate's degree
19:41and I can
19:42we refer the year of schooling towards
19:44the bachelors but then even that silver
19:46lining B was taken from me because the
19:481995 George Pataki became governor of
19:50New York and he decided it would be a
19:52good idea to cut the funding of college
19:54education for prisoners when that
19:56happened I started attending the
19:59vocational trades but although I
20:00completed many courses and then
20:02accumulated many certificates the
20:05reality of it is that the curriculum was
20:07obsolete many years prior to my ever
20:09having set foot in the vocational shop
20:12when I was originally incarcerated my
20:15mother used to make the for four and a
20:17half hour trip from big-scale to Elmira
20:20but as the years grew long and it grew
20:24tiring making that long trip and things
20:26tightened up a little bit financially
20:28and she began to have some problems in
20:31her feet in her back I began to see her
20:34less and less until eventually I was
20:36lucky if I saw her once every six months
20:39my brother is three and a half years
20:41younger than I am and he also was
20:43impacted by my wrongful conviction the
20:45kids in the school bus and in the school
20:46would tell him that his brother was a
20:48rapist and they would try to stab him
20:50and hit him in and hit him in the with
20:55uh they were trying to hit him I guess
20:56being unable to get to me he was the
20:58next best thing
21:00in 1996 the prison authorities informed
21:04me that they had received information
21:05from the outside hospital saying that my
21:08grandmother was extremely sick and was
21:10not going to make it and so they wanted
21:12to know whether or not I wanted to wait
21:13for her to pass away and then go to the
21:16funeral service or did I instead 1a4
21:17golda service and see her one last time
21:21while she was alive albeit in a coma
21:23it was a very difficult decision because
21:25by that point I already had been
21:27incarcerated for six years I had lost
21:29several Appeals and there were many
21:31members of my immediate and extended
21:32family that had never come to see me who
21:35I knew good and well we're never gonna
21:37see me so long as I was in the prison so
21:40attending this funeral service
21:42represented a clear last clear
21:43opportunity that I had to speak with
21:46them encouraged them to you know reach
21:48out to me in the end I decided that I
21:52would go see my grandmother one last
21:53time while she was
21:55I've always gotten motion sicknesses so
21:58one of the ways you protect yourself
22:00from getting sick is eat before you
22:02begin the journey we left Elmira for
22:04big-scale early in the morning prior to
22:07the rest of the population being served
22:09breakfast
22:10the guards were given funds with which
22:11to purchase breakfast items for
22:13themselves and for me but while they had
22:15a full complement of breakfasts I was
22:17simply provided with a cup of coffee and
22:19as a result of that I grew extremely
22:21sick and they had to stop the car
22:23several times because I was on the verge
22:24of vomiting when we got to the hospital
22:27they parked the vehicle as far away from
22:29the hospital doors as possible so as to
22:31be able to parade me through the parking
22:33lot in the hospital corridors again
22:35keeping in mind that I had on handcuffs
22:36in a chain around my waist and my legs
22:39fastened together I remember there was a
22:42nursing attendant on duty that did a
22:44double-take at the sight of me and there
22:46was a child running around and playing
22:47there was maybe five or six years old
22:49the mother got one look at me and
22:51brought the child close to her as if I
22:53was some kind of violent animal that was
22:55going to commit a spontaneous act of
22:56violence right there on the spot
22:58definitely humiliating the situation
23:00when it was time to go home the guards
23:04came in the go back to the prison rather
23:06the guards came into the room and they
23:08told me that my hour was up and that I
23:10looked up at the clock and saw that in
23:13fact it only been 45 minutes but they
23:15insisted it had been an hour and they
23:16forced me to leave again reading me
23:18through the hospital quarters this time
23:21I was given a full meal to eat lunch but
23:26by this point the car the parking space
23:28with a car had been parked at it had
23:30lent itself please sunlight beaming
23:32through the windshield and so by now the
23:34vehicle become rather hot they turned on
23:38the car the air conditioning but because
23:40those plexiglass fully separating the
23:42back of the vehicle from the front none
23:44of it reached me and they were unwilling
23:46to lower the window even a fraction of
23:49an inch all tolar suffered for you know
23:52between eight and nine hours in order to
23:53visit my grandmother for less than one
23:55when I reached the end of near the end
23:58of my sentence minimum the prison
24:00authorities told me that if I wanted to
24:01have any chance at all making parole
24:03which was already a slimmer than certain
24:05possibility as it was I would have to
24:08take and complete
24:08the sex offender training program the
24:11problem completing that program however
24:12was that there was a guilt admission
24:14requirement tied to it everybody in the
24:17class would be expected to admit guilt
24:18to the the instructor as well as the
24:21other prisoners a verbal rendition
24:24wouldn't wouldn't cut it they wanted
24:26everything in writing simply saying that
24:28one was guilty wouldn't suffice they
24:30wanted to hear all the details
24:32failure to complete any aspect of that
24:34would result in immediate removal from
24:36the program with the prisoner being
24:38deemed to have refused to put complete
24:41the program so I was again in a
24:44difficult position in the end I decided
24:47that I was not gonna take that program
24:49because I couldn't bring myself to sit
24:51there and give you the more details of
24:53committing a crime which I knew that I
24:55had not committed in the end I went I
25:00did not take that program and I when I
25:02went to the parole board I knew that
25:04they were in the habit of our stamp
25:05denying applications of anybody who had
25:09been incarcerated for violent crime you
25:11know they would simply a will a parole
25:14board be turned down reappear and fire
25:16them two years later and be turned down
25:19again and have that cycle continuing on
25:21in this never-ending cycle of perpetuity
25:24in reality the parole board was supposed
25:27to be assessing whether or not the
25:29President had been rehabilitated and if
25:31they and if they were released you know
25:33who'd they remain at at Liberty without
25:36being arrested again you know rather
25:39than just focusing in on what they have
25:41been what they had been convicted of in
25:43the first place because you know that
25:44that was never gonna changed and that
25:47that was why they were incarcerated to
25:49be to begin with and that's an opposite
25:51direction of rehabilitation so I tried
25:55to protect myself from being denied
25:57parole by repeatedly raising the issue
25:58of my innocence and referencing the DNA
26:02but they were not even willing to
26:04consider the mere possibility that I was
26:06innocent towards the end of the hearing
26:08they asked me a question about an
26:10aggression replacement training program
26:11and I was able to give him the answer
26:13demonstrating I had learned the material
26:15in the shop that's what a different
26:17Commissioner piped up and said well
26:19that's good mr. duska Vick because
26:21you're going to need
26:22that those skills when you return back
26:23to society good luck the procedures that
26:27they don't inform you the decision right
26:28there in a spot but it's instead sent
26:30via institutional mail three days later
26:33considering how that interview ended I
26:35actually walked around the prison for
26:37the next three days thinking that I had
26:38somehow defied the odds and that I would
26:40be going home when I got the decision it
26:43noted that I had a excellent educational
26:45record that I had a good disciplinary
26:47record that I had some letters of
26:49support including from a prison employee
26:51recommending that I be paroled but that
26:53nonetheless I had been convicted of a
26:55brutal and senseless crime and they
26:58wrote to release me would be to somehow
26:59lessen its seriousness they turned me
27:02down they ordered me to appear in front
27:04of them two years later at that point I
27:06felt like he was pretty certain I was
27:08gonna die in prison as a result of being
27:10convicted for crime which I did not
27:12commit I would like to share with you
27:16how it was that I came to be exonerated
27:19while all that was happening a lot more
27:21than I'm passing over for the sake of
27:23time I was simultaneously appealing my
27:26conviction I went to the Appellate
27:28Division the first court one must go to
27:30my lawyer raise the issue of my
27:32innocence based on the DNA
27:41Jeffrey don't know if you can hear me
27:42but you've seen to a frozen go into the
27:47court found that I was not in custody I
27:51was free to come and go as I wanted and
27:55therefore they ruled the statements were
27:56not involuntary they wrote that there
27:59was overwhelming would get evidence of
28:01guilt which is still kind of a
28:02head-scratcher
28:03because the DNA didn't match me they got
28:06rid of all my other issues at once
28:08sentence by writing that they had looked
28:10at another remainder of my issues and
28:12found them to be without merit or not
28:14preserved for review they ruled against
28:17me five to nothing as terrible that
28:20decision was that was the most that any
28:22court ever wrote my lawyer moved to Rio
28:25argue the case in front of that Court
28:27but the we argue me motion was denied
28:30the New York State Court of Appeals our
28:32state's highest court declined to give
28:35me permission to appeal to them so I
28:37lost their I lost in federal court
28:39because the court clerk gave my lawyer
28:42the wrong information pertaining to the
28:43filing procedure as a result of which my
28:45petition arrived four days too late
28:48which former Westchester da Jeanine
28:50Pirro
28:51who has the judge Cohen is a commentator
28:54on television her office took the
28:56position at those four days or
28:58prejudicial to the people and therefore
28:59they urged the court to simply rule that
29:02I was late without looking at my issues
29:03and that's what the court did now is
29:07time barred so that meant I was stuck
29:09arguing that that procedural ruling
29:11against me was inaccurate
29:12so I appealed to the federal court of
29:14appeals I got permission to appeal to
29:16them on the issue of the technicality
29:19and my lawyer argued that this was not a
29:22delay caused by me or my attorney but by
29:25the court clerk
29:30you
29:36the more sophisticated DNA testing but
29:40the the two judges on the circuit judge
29:43rosemary pool or in future US Supreme
29:45Court Justice Sonia Sotomayor they ruled
29:50with the District Attorney my lawyer
29:53moved to argue the case to for them
29:55requesting and all the judges on the
29:56circuit heared the case but the reaaargh
29:58ument motion was denied and then I
30:01appeal to the US Supreme Court where
30:04they whether it's a two-part procedure
30:07nationally the only agreed II here
30:09between two to five percent of the total
30:11number of cases in front of them so you
30:13need to miss this despite compelling
30:15reasons of justice as to why they should
30:17do so the odds didn't green here in my
30:19case was slim having know where the
30:21court left to go to I had no choice but
30:23to forge ahead I was not able to
30:26overcome the odds as expected the US
30:28Supreme Court declined to give me
30:29permission to appeal to them that marked
30:32the end of my Appeals in the end of
30:34legal representation that was in 2001
30:37the path therefore to be exonerated when
30:40the appeals are overs you have to find
30:42some previously unknown evidence of
30:44innocence without which your previous
30:46year completely or your own permanently
30:48locked out of the courthouse so I wrote
30:51letters for four years looking for a
30:52lawyer an investigator to take my case
30:54pro bono because I didn't have any money
30:56with which to hire one and neither did
30:59my family I really got answers to any of
31:02my letters eventually I wound up in
31:04touch with an investigator who are when
31:07I showed her the DNA test results she
31:10believed my innocence and she suggested
31:12that I write the Innocence Project again
31:14which is a nonprofit organization in
31:16Manhattan New York that frees wrongfully
31:18convicted prisoners across the country
31:19in those cases in which DNA testing can
31:22demonstrate innocence and in which no
31:24prior testing had been conducted I wrote
31:27them before in 92 93 but DNA was not as
31:30advanced then and so their case
31:33selection criteria was like I just
31:35mentioned but the problem is I didn't
31:36meet that selection before because I had
31:39the prior testing and so therefore they
31:42couldn't simply test again and then use
31:44that as newly discovered evidence
31:45because it was
31:47nope fast forward in 15 years the
31:51investigator told me that in light are
31:53the advancement in DNA technology that
31:56the prior to denial was irrelevant and
31:58just write them again so I wrote them
32:01again I filled out their questionnaire
32:03and then I forgot about it
32:04I looked for other ways of obtaining
32:06legal representation none of which were
32:08successful no I didn't know that at the
32:11time but I've learned since that in that
32:15six months time period once again
32:18Innocence Project didn't want to take
32:19the case because of the pre-existing
32:22exclusion but one of the case workers
32:24there
32:24Maggie Taylor represented my case to the
32:29lawyers that each time they said no she
32:31would go back to the drawing board and
32:33come up with a new theory as to how the
32:34DNA could be used and she would come
32:36back so on the third try she was able to
32:39push it across the finish line and they
32:41agreed to take my case
32:42so obtaining their legal representation
32:44was the first of three important things
32:48the second was that Pierrot left office
32:50and her successor was not as dug into my
32:53case and she was willing to allow me to
32:55have the further testing apuro would not
32:57and third thirdly we got lucky that the
33:00actual criminal committed a second
33:03murder
33:04he killed a second victim three and a
33:06half years later after killing the
33:08victim in my case who was a
33:09schoolteacher and who had two children
33:13so the DNA it Mac it matched him and he
33:18then confessed to the crime on September
33:2322nd 2006 my conviction was overturned
33:26and I was released I reported back to
33:30court November 2nd 2006 at which point
33:33all the charges were dismissed on actual
33:35innocence grounds I would like to share
33:37with you at this time some photographs
33:40and and while I get ready to to do that
33:43there will be some technical instruction
33:45given to you now but one of the some of
33:47the moderators as to how you can look at
33:49the slide shelter yeah thanks
33:51just very quickly when Jeffrey is
33:53sharing just as I'm sharing now at oh no
33:58no he's sharing weights
34:02yeah let me bring up my picture wait so
34:05if you can't you can see the speaker and
34:08the screen at the top there's a little
34:12barn with view options and if you select
34:14side by side you'll be able to see both
34:17that's what I wanted to show you go
34:19ahead Jeffrey okay
34:21so the reason why the photos are
34:23important is because I was not the adult
34:26then that you see now you know I was
34:29much younger when this happened I was 16
34:32when I was arrested I think this excuse
34:35me I think that here we go okay so this
34:39is a picture of my mug shot wait
34:43something is happening here wait only
34:48one second okay and I'm trying to move
35:03the I'm trying to show the other slides
35:08and it's not it's not working give me
35:11one second okay I got this working now
35:16and you just okay can you everybody see
35:27everything now okay here and okay let's
35:32try this now okay this is my mug shot
35:34sorry about that
35:35this is art so that's my this is my mug
35:38shot this is a picture of me in the
35:42courtroom when it was announced that the
35:43jury had reached a verdict but prior to
35:45it having been read to with the Leaney
35:49with the red hair as was my mother and
35:51with the and with the white sweatshirt
35:54that was my aunt this is a picture of me
35:57in the courtroom when I was given the 15
36:00to life sentence this is a picture of me
36:04shortly after arriving at Elmira
36:07Correctional Facility this is another
36:10picture of me shortly after I
36:12arrived this is a picture of me when I
36:16was released to my left is Barry Scheck
36:19who was a co-founder of the Innocence
36:21Project along with Peter Neufeld is a
36:23picture of my mother again and there's
36:25my attorney
36:27Nina Morrison I want to point out to one
36:30of the people on the presentation today
36:32attending is Matt Kelly who used to work
36:35at the Innocence Project during their
36:37innocence vlog and other communication
36:39on aspects of their operation and as a
36:43picture of me giving up giving a hug to
36:46to my mother it was very difficult to
36:50put your life back together again after
36:54being through a traumatic experience
36:55like that particularly one that lasted
36:5916 years so this next photo is kind of
37:06encapsulates that that difficulty oh
37:08yeah give me one second um so let me
37:14share that the world is much different
37:16now than when it was when I was
37:18originally incarcerated the technology
37:21was different cell phones internet GPS
37:24those things didn't exist these
37:26different methods of banking did not
37:29exist the culture was different
37:31neighborhoods look different people that
37:33I knew had lived there long sense moved
37:36away taking cue murali there was a
37:39general atmosphere of feeling like I was
37:42in an alternative universe a world which
37:45I didn't belong in it was very difficult
37:48when I would meet up with members of my
37:50extended family was awkward because
37:51although I knew who they were
37:52intellectually when you spend long
37:55amounts of time away from people I mean
37:58you know they're different the changes
38:00in them are different and I was a
38:01different person as well I had to deal
38:05with the stigma not many people
38:07questioned my innocence because the
38:09actual criminal was arrested and
38:10convicted the crime whereas my charges
38:13were dismissed when actual innocence
38:15grounds and there was a report issued by
38:17the Westchester District Attorney as to
38:20what went wrong in my case
38:23but they're still nonetheless was a
38:25stigma you were in prison wrongfully for
38:2816 years yes but you were there for 16
38:31years how much of that rubbed off on you
38:33is it safe to be alone someplace with
38:35you so that has proven to be a challenge
38:38when it comes to personal relationships
38:39I was never able to obtain gainful
38:43employment it seemed like every employer
38:46wanted somebody who could hit the ground
38:48running and I obviously I would have
38:50required some on-the-job training and to
38:53get caught up on the technology I had to
38:57deal with the psychological
38:57after-effects of being wrongfully
39:00imprisoned I used to go to mental health
39:03professionals four times a week for six
39:05years to deal with readjusting to being
39:07free and and in coping with the
39:11psychological after-effects it's common
39:13when people have been wrongfully
39:14imprisoned to suffer from post-traumatic
39:16stress disorder panic attacks anxiety
39:19fear on of seeing law enforcement
39:23feeling loved having been frozen in time
39:24for you are feeling love processing
39:27things at a slower speed I was released
39:31with nothing and although New York State
39:34has compensation statute on the books
39:36you have to file a lawsuit they're not
39:38there yeah it took me five years to get
39:40compensated and so it was a very uh it
39:44was a very tenuous existence I ended up
39:47into a homeless shelter because I was
39:48always asked over for gainful employment
39:53well I I thought when I was released
39:55everything I ever wanted to say but
39:57could never get it when you hear me say
39:59it all came out and so I held the media
40:01there for two two and a half hours or I
40:03gave my off-the-cuff presentation and
40:05every time I thought I was finished I
40:09remembered something else and so I
40:10shared that so at that moment I realized
40:12I could be part of the innocence
40:14movement without necessarily being a
40:15lawyer and so I embarked on this
40:17advocacy career which involved in me
40:19doing presentations across the country
40:21and I was a columnist for five years at
40:24the Westchester Guardian and I made a
40:26decision to trade privacy for awareness
40:28so I used to do frequent media
40:31interviews I used to meet regularly with
40:34elected officials and go to legislative
40:36hearings and
40:37the past changes in the procedure in
40:39order to prevent future wrongful
40:42convictions I received a scholarship
40:45from Mercy College which I used to
40:48finish the bachelor's degree and let me
40:51show a few more we show you a few more
40:53slides after about five years I was able
40:56to receive some financial compensation
40:58and I decided I want to take my advocacy
41:01work to the next level estar the Jeffrey
41:03des Quebec foundation for justice whose
41:05purpose but be the three people who are
41:07in the same position that I was and to
41:08pursue policy changes so I were on this
41:14next slide wait something's happened
41:17here I'm trying to get to the next slide
41:19give me one second here try this again
41:24okay this is when I opened up the
41:27foundation so to my right in the red tie
41:31is Fernando Bermuda so did 18 years in a
41:34Manhattan wrongful conviction case to my
41:37left that's Jabbar Collins who did 16
41:40years and so heads left you might
41:42recognize Raymond Santana from the
41:44Central Park five case if you get a
41:47chance to watch the series on Netflix
41:49when they see us very powerful I would
41:51definitely encourage that the
41:54documentary about their story Central
41:56Park five is probably the best
41:58documentary out there on wrongful
42:00conviction when it comes to the
42:01intersection of wrongful conviction and
42:04race the first person that the
42:07foundation exonerated was william lopez
42:10he did 23 and a half years for for a
42:13shotgun murder in Brooklyn that he did
42:15not commit
42:16he had pre-existing legal counsel
42:19they've been with him for nine years we
42:20entered the case and we did some
42:22investigative work collaborating with
42:23those lawyers and we able to help turn
42:26over turn up some additional evidence of
42:28innocence and you know he was he was
42:32exonerated we've been able to free seven
42:35people in our seven years of existence
42:37Lopez passed away after about after
42:41living for a year and a half as a free
42:43person so his whole adult life was
42:45virtually stolen from him I want to add
42:48that when he was originally convicted
42:50his daughter
42:50was a year and a half and by the time he
42:52was free she was twenty five five years
42:55old second person we exonerated to my
42:59left with the red tie that's William haw
43:01he who did eight years and four months
43:03in an arson case that actually was an
43:06electrical fire so we did that case
43:08completely in-house and the end of it
43:10the district attorney agreed with us
43:11that he was innocent we've been able to
43:15help pass three laws aimed at preventing
43:17wrongful conviction working with other
43:18advocacy groups and organizations
43:20including the Innocence Project
43:22pertaining to videotaping interrogations
43:25and better identification procedures we
43:30also advocated the foundation advocated
43:32for the expansion of the DNA data bank
43:35which is a staff that New York took I'm
43:37part of a coalition called it could
43:39happen to you which is a statewide
43:42coalition and we've that we work
43:46together on wrongful conviction
43:47prevention and for SIA and also against
43:51false accusations we were able to pass
43:52three additional laws including the
43:55Commission on prosecutor conducts was an
43:57oversight board for prosecutors he
43:59passed a tweak to that law and we also
44:02on helped on the passage of discovery
44:06reform which pertains to sharing
44:07information between the prosecutors and
44:10the defense a trial could really be a
44:12search for the truth rather than trial
44:13by ambush I've spoken at internationally
44:18also this is this being an example of it
44:21here I was in the country of Armenia
44:23relatively new democracy there the
44:26government doesn't believe that there is
44:27any such thing as wrongful conviction is
44:29certainly not a false confession so I
44:32was brought in as I wanted to American
44:35experts and media engaged in the
44:37week-long series of events our speaking
44:39events media meeting with elected
44:42officials and etc so this picture is an
44:45example of that I got an award in
44:48exchange for my advocacy work in passing
44:50the commission of prosecutor conduct to
44:53my left with the long red tie is Bill
44:55Bassett who started the group was
44:58falsely accused of a rape which he
44:59didn't commit he was acquitted in two
45:01hours but it costs in his reputation
45:04his second mortgage wiped out his
45:06savings he had been a elected official
45:10up in Rochester Monroe County New York
45:12and this professor Gershman who does
45:14frequent media commentary on
45:16prosecutorial misconduct so I got an
45:19award for my role there I had to meet
45:21with a lot of elected officials and duel
45:23media interviews and talk about my case
45:25and most importantly I was Eleison to
45:27the for the group with other exonerees
45:30so for my role and that I got an award
45:32we're currently having met with some
45:34success in New York we're now working in
45:36Pennsylvania and California this is an
45:39example of the of the of the
45:41Pennsylvania team so that same model
45:43putting together a coalition group and
45:46the same advocacy tactics we have a team
45:49in PA in California so bill Vasek and I
45:53are the only people that are really in
45:55common with all the groups so the tall
45:57fellow with the baseball cap is drew
45:59Whitley who did who did 20 years
46:02this is Terrance Lewis who did 21 years
46:05and four months and to my immediate left
46:07is Mark Whitacre who did 17 years and
46:10four months speaking of mothers in the
46:16Burgundy
46:17suit is Milly Cellino who son is
46:21fighting a wrongful conviction case now
46:23and in the glasses is Marian lubbers
46:27USADA son Michael Dalal was excluded by
46:29DNA but he was convicted anyway in a
46:31child molestation case and they're
46:33currently seeking exoneration and the
46:36lady in the front in the black that's on
46:38Karen mill so her her her husband is
46:42represented by the Innocence Project in
46:45in New York Craig Cooley and another of
46:48legal entity in in Pennsylvania I
46:52they'll fight against wrongful
46:54conviction is not anti law enforcement
46:57it's not anti caucus not anti prosecutor
46:59it is however against rogue police
47:01officers and rogue prosecutors and
47:03anyone who you know breaks the rules
47:05breaks the law goes against proper
47:07procedure so I'm certified as an
47:09instructor and police academies in New
47:11Jersey where for the last sixty five or
47:14six years I've have they've been brought
47:16me in twice
47:18a year to speak to police cadets on the
47:21topic of ethics and I squeezed in some
47:24best practices as well so I I co teach
47:27that so this is an example of that
47:31here's another class and here's another
47:34one was a group of correction officers
47:37that I spoke in front of it's long after
47:41getting the scholarship from Mercy
47:42College to finish the bachelor's degree
47:44I was I did I did the springboard from
47:47that to further education so I do have a
47:50master's degree from the John Jay
47:51College of Criminal Justice my master's
47:54thesis was on wrongful conviction
47:55clauses and reform so this is when I
47:57graduated and this is a media interview
48:00when I on did that I dis past May I
48:05graduated from the Elizabeth Howard
48:07School of Law at Pace University I got a
48:09law degree I recently passed the bar my
48:13rationale for going into law school was
48:16that it wasn't enough for me to sit in
48:18the front row the courtroom I wanted to
48:20represent some of the clients myself and
48:24I thought that the extra credential
48:25would not only allow that but also would
48:27help the policy initiatives that I am
48:32that madam that I'm not pursuing
48:35something one of the questions that I
48:37get often is um you know am i angry and
48:39my answer is no because I want to enjoy
48:41myself as much as I can and live a
48:44meaningful life and I don't think I can
48:45do that if I'm angry or bitter if I was
48:48angry or bitter I feel like I would in
48:50effect be losing the rest of my life and
48:52I would be the only loser in that
48:54perhaps Ness less normally it's not like
48:57I would be adversely affecting anybody
48:58if I was angry or bitter so that's my
49:03Ron's reasoning on that and the vehicle
49:06that allows me to actualize that is that
49:08I take that energy that I feel and I
49:10channeled into my advocacy work the
49:14National Registry of exonerations is
49:15considered to be the the authoritative
49:18website and source on which catalogues
49:21wrongful convictions across the country
49:23both DNA and non DNA there are over
49:252,500 listed exonerations there but I
49:30think it's over 26
49:31and and so unfortunately what happened
49:34to me is not is not rare I wish that it
49:36was nineteen people that I did time with
49:39were either exonerated before me or
49:41after me so maybe the last quick thing I
49:45mentioned is I'm one of the one of the
49:47major causes of wrongful convictions
49:49prosecutorial misconduct so we are
49:52working to bring the Commission on
49:53prosecutor conduct in Pennsylvania as I
49:56mentioned we are building that coalition
49:58out there which is consisted of
50:00exonerees people falsely accused but
50:03acquitted individual advocates everyday
50:05citizens people who allege that their
50:08family and friends are wrongfully
50:09imprisoned as well as all the different
50:11criminal justice organizations
50:12regardless of what issue it is that they
50:14focus in on we come together just to
50:16work on that so we're working on three
50:19things in Pennsylvania now we're working
50:22on the commission and prosecutor conduct
50:24we are working on automatic expungement
50:27so we're saying there that when someone
50:29is exonerated in court that their
50:31records you'll automatically be cleaned
50:32that's not what the situation is now and
50:35so a lot of Pennsylvania exonerees still
50:37have a record and that hurts them when
50:39it comes to employment and other aspects
50:41Pennsylvania is one of 15 states that
50:43does not have compensation so that's
50:48another reform we're working on there
50:49we're trying to pass the Commission in
50:51California as well and fix a
50:53compensation system so chlorophyl
50:58conviction causes coerced false
50:59confessions in 25% of the cases
51:02misidentification is 75 lying and lying
51:05informants bad lawyer in we need to
51:09limit the number of cases that ended a
51:11defense attorney takes at once it's not
51:13unusual for them to represent a hundred
51:16people at the same time we need to have
51:18evil even playing field when it comes to
51:21the financial resources and manpower
51:24between the public defender's office and
51:26the prosecutor's office certainly we
51:29need everyone to be able to get
51:31compensation and immediate reentry
51:33services things like cost of living
51:36housing mental health services doctor
51:39and dental care access to public
51:40transportation job training job
51:42placement
51:45education so with that I'm going to I'm
51:51going to open up open up for for
51:55questions feel free to ask me anything
51:57you like whether whether it pertains to
52:00something that I've spoken about or even
52:03something that has has not in terms of
52:07just being timely you know I do have a
52:09big concern when it comes to Co vid 19
52:12it's spreading like wildfire in the
52:14prisons and so I think that you know and
52:17it's very difficult to do social
52:18distancing there so people that don't
52:21need to be incarcerated not right now
52:22off of public safety I think that you
52:25know they should be released so people
52:27that have compromised immune systems the
52:29elderly people who incarcerated for
52:32nonviolent offenses people that are
52:34within one maybe two years of going to
52:38see the parole board who can be
52:40determined to have been rehabilitated
52:42and therefore able to safely be released
52:45I think that the you know that should
52:47that should be done certainly providing
52:50mass and and and sanitizer I mean it's
52:52been some reports that there's not
52:53enough of that going on so I I feel
52:56strongly about that I do have a
52:59secondary interest in parole reform I
53:02think people that have been
53:03rehabilitated should be released I don't
53:05think people should be returned to
53:06prison on technical violations I mean I
53:08saw people return back to prison for a
53:11year or two sometimes on things like you
53:16know their curfew was nine o'clock and
53:18they got back in at 9:05 or they didn't
53:20tell the parole officer that they
53:21changed an address and while I don't
53:23while I think that this should be an
53:25adhering to the rules I don't think that
53:27returning someone to prison for a year
53:29or two is the proper proper remedy
53:32proper punishment for that I did 28 days
53:36in solitary confinement
53:38so I mean solitary confinement is
53:39recognized as as a form of torture and
53:43it causes mental health illness and
53:46exasperates mental health illnesses I
53:47saw a lot of people in prison that
53:50really didn't belong in prison they
53:52belonged in a mental hospital so that
53:54there's that issue prison reform I think
53:57that there should be
53:59college education vocational shops that
54:01have up-to-date curriculum and make sure
54:04that the instructors are actually
54:05teaching teaching people said of just
54:08being there for for a paycheck there
54:12should be more assistance in terms of
54:13prisoner and reentry band the box so I
54:16mean there's a disturbing practice
54:18amongst some colleges that applicants
54:21have to disclose whether they have a
54:23criminal record or not and to me if
54:25someone's applying to go to college they
54:27obviously intend to engage in a
54:30crime-free life and so why should they
54:33be denied an educational opportunity for
54:35that
54:36similarly stopping people from getting
54:39the dis discrimination by by employers
54:42if returning citizens are denied gainful
54:46employment then the temptation to return
54:48back to crime to the old ways and hence
54:51re-incarceration another another victim
54:54spending money to incarcerate them
54:56yearly rather than having them pay into
54:58the tax base that's the end result of
55:01that and so I don't you know we got to
55:02have better measures when it comes to
55:05that so all those issues you know matter
55:08to me and you know just as the people
55:11they're there that are over sentenced I
55:13saw people there who had more time in
55:17nonviolent cases that were there who you
55:20know who killed people I mean that
55:22that's uh you know that's backwards to
55:24me I think when people have been
55:26finished a sentence minimum you know
55:28they should have been shown to be
55:30rehabilitated they should be released
55:32and I think again when it comes to
55:34elderly in prison or people with serious
55:36illnesses they should be released
55:38because the prison is simply not
55:40equipped to deal with their advanced
55:42needs and I don't think that sentences
55:44should turn into a de facto death
55:48sentence I mean these are you know
55:49mothers grandmothers grandfathers
55:51mothers and you know mothers fathers and
55:54you know sons and daughters and you know
55:57Humanity is that dehumanization is
55:59simply not an option and who do that as
56:02a society then we lower ourselves down
56:04to the level of the offender or even
56:07though
56:07even worse so look I've spoken enough I
56:10will open the door for questions feel
56:13free to ask me about anything you want
56:15whether I spoken about it here today or
56:17not Imperial open I'm very comfortable
56:20if Thank You Geoffrey for that extremely
56:23moving talk I'm gonna hand it over to
56:25rob to manage the questions I do want to
56:28say a couple things first for we ask
56:31that you if you have a question that it
56:33be a question not a statement we're also
56:36going to limit questions to under one
56:39minute and we'd also like to hear from
56:41some new voices and the questions people
56:43who may not have asked questions in the
56:45prior meeting so with that I'll hand it
56:47over to Rob
56:48go ahead Rob great thank you very much
56:52it was such a wonderful speech it's a
56:54wonderful platform let's go to Bess and
56:57Perry go ahead ask her question you are
57:02unmuted and I really admire you for
57:09being able to rebuild your life in the
57:13positive way instead of in a bitter
57:15negative way my question has to do with
57:19what happened to the two police officers
57:23who interrogated you did you ever
57:25receive an apology were they punished in
57:28any way have you ever heard anything
57:30about them since so they have never been
57:35punished I did sue the municipality that
57:38they worked for but you know that's the
57:41entity that paid out they didn't
57:42personally pay anything they never
57:45arrived you know they were retired by
57:47the time I was exonerated so they were
57:49never disciplined or you know there was
57:51nothing on the pension I I feel strongly
57:53that they should have you know there
57:55should be a criminal you know penalty
57:56for them for what what they did
57:59especially not just you know sending me
58:01to prison wrongfully and then and then
58:04impact on my family but then costing the
58:05you know second victim ultimately her
58:08her her life
58:10in fact the lieutenant that oversaw
58:12everything he paid that only became the
58:17police chief based in part on my case
58:19but they also
58:21with him as the police chief even after
58:23I mercy allowed him to continue on the
58:25job for another six or seven years I
58:28never got I never got an apology from
58:31any of the people that were involved
58:32with the exception at the actual
58:35perpetrator he apologized for remaining
58:37quiet while I was doing time for his
58:40crime I did get an apology from the
58:42prosecutor and the judge in the
58:43courtroom but those were not the
58:45counterparts who were originally
58:47involved into my case all right we have
58:53a question from Lisa Schwartz Lisa go
58:56ahead I think you have to unmute
58:57yourself there let's see try one more
59:03time
59:04Ron Lisa there you go all right hi as an
59:13executor myself wanting to get comment
59:17on what I have observed to be the
59:19tremendous imbalance between funding
59:21Prosecutor's Office and public defenders
59:23offices and how much if you feel the
59:27wrongful conviction problem we have in
59:29this country is due to the tremendous
59:31underfunding and over caseloads that
59:34public defenders have yes I think it's a
59:38tremendous factor bad lawyering is a
59:40major factor wrongful convictions so I
59:43think that in terms of addressing it I
59:45believed in having won statewide system
59:49so there can be greater oversight and
59:50quality control evening out of the
59:53financial and manpower so resources
59:56between the DA's office and the public
59:58defender's office limitation on the
1:00:00caseload also I believe in having equal
1:00:03pay for both sides I think that both
1:00:06both defense and prosecutors they're
1:00:08playing a critical role it's equal one
1:00:10is not a more important job than the
1:00:12other so I think that those those things
1:00:15on all those factors need to be part of
1:00:18reform when it comes to public defense
1:00:21and I'll just say that the there's
1:00:24different civil liberties union it's in
1:00:27certain states that have filed lawsuits
1:00:29against the state for not providing
1:00:32adequate funding
1:00:36okay sorry yes let's go to Matt Matt go
1:00:41ahead you're unmuted I wanted to ask
1:00:51about recording of interrogations about
1:00:54the reforms to prevent false confessions
1:00:56if you can talk a bit about what what
1:00:58you see happening nationwide which
1:01:00states are doing the best what's what's
1:01:02the standard of that reform and how's it
1:01:05going so the gold standard of the reform
1:01:08would be videotaping interrogations from
1:01:11beginning from beginning to end the
1:01:13camera is supposed to be focused in on
1:01:16the both the law enforcement as well as
1:01:19as well as the suspect it makes for
1:01:21better evidence it prevents police
1:01:23officers from leaving details out of
1:01:25their testimony which is what happened
1:01:27in my case and we can you know get away
1:01:31from having to rely on officer an
1:01:33officer memory and truthfulness it also
1:01:35it it does protect honest cops from
1:01:37false allegations of coercion I think it
1:01:40can speed up the speed things up you
1:01:45know New Jersey is doing excellent job
1:01:46when it comes to videotaping
1:01:48interrogations I mean that the reform
1:01:50can be implemented either through a high
1:01:52court decision or it could also be
1:01:54implemented through through through
1:01:57legislation in terms of New York where
1:02:01I'm from so we passed the law there but
1:02:05the problem is that it came out
1:02:06watered-down so they'd be an exception
1:02:08for second-degree murder second sex
1:02:10offenses and drug cases so we want to
1:02:14try to get rid of those exceptions but
1:02:17you know if you go to the Innocence
1:02:18Project website which we'll put up
1:02:20before the presentations finished it
1:02:22lists a breakdown of like how all the
1:02:24different states are doing I'll say that
1:02:28long you know there's a lot of pushback
1:02:30and it comes to the district attorney's
1:02:32association law enforcement doesn't want
1:02:34it but ironically in places
1:02:37jurisdictions where the police are
1:02:38forced to do it once they start doing it
1:02:41they never want to go back they they see
1:02:44how it works
1:02:46and their their behalf some of the
1:02:48pushback arguments are that that
1:02:51suspects aren't gonna be willing to
1:02:53speak if they recorded and you know my
1:02:55answer to that is you know they don't
1:02:57have to have a choice just roll the
1:02:59camera and they don't have to they don't
1:03:01have to see it there's a a cost cite
1:03:04argument which you know doesn't make any
1:03:07sense to me because I think if you
1:03:09prevent just one wrongful conviction
1:03:10then oh then it's definitely definitely
1:03:13worked at the money that would be saved
1:03:14on a compensation side of it and then
1:03:17you know what's the price on someone's
1:03:18life so uh you know there's that
1:03:21argument then there's a silly argument
1:03:24well maybe the equipment might
1:03:26malfunction or you know the public is it
1:03:28might not understand what we're doing in
1:03:30the interrogation room but I reject
1:03:32those arguments I mean the fit
1:03:34malfunctions it malfunctions you know I
1:03:36mean if it's a real malfunction but you
1:03:39know the idea the public won't
1:03:40understand I I don't I I believe in
1:03:42transparency and so you know that
1:03:44argument doesn't really fly with me but
1:03:47in order to prevent wrongful convictions
1:03:50on on false confessions it's more than
1:03:52just the recording an admission of false
1:03:54confession expert testimony in the
1:03:56courtroom is critical they don't give an
1:03:58official opinion on whether a confession
1:04:00is false or not that's up to the jury to
1:04:02decide but instead it just provides
1:04:05contextual information to the general
1:04:08public about what are the factors that
1:04:10have been proven to cause innocent
1:04:12people to confess I another measure that
1:04:15she's on gaining some steam is that
1:04:17there should be a pre-trial hearing
1:04:19where the accuracy or truthfulness of a
1:04:21confession is also evaluated before it's
1:04:26allowed as evidence rather than just the
1:04:28voluntariness of it so there are red
1:04:31flags there are commonalities and many
1:04:33of the wrongful conviction cases caused
1:04:34by course false confession so you know
1:04:37you can have like a checklist of all all
1:04:40these factors that have been proven
1:04:41before and that can be part of what the
1:04:43judge takes into account lastly I just
1:04:48want to share that while adults have
1:04:50given coerced false confessions
1:04:52particularly vulnerable populations or
1:04:54youth than people with mental health
1:04:57issues I mean to compensate for their
1:05:00mental deficiencies people with mental
1:05:02health issues they try to be compliant
1:05:05with authority figure so when you match
1:05:07that with a police officer that's trying
1:05:09to get a confession let's say up let's
1:05:12say a bad that's a bad that's a bad
1:05:15combination
1:05:17all right we have only time for a couple
1:05:20more questions I think we'll go to leave
1:05:22you cannon right now Lee go ahead I was
1:05:28interested in profiling in their initial
1:05:32identifying with you and it seemed to
1:05:34sort of set them off of you know the
1:05:38quest down that path and I'm curious to
1:05:39what extent the psychological profiling
1:05:43continued to be something that they were
1:05:44relying on building this case and
1:05:47refusing to look at other evidence yeah
1:05:52I mean I think that it was I think that
1:05:54it was a I think that it was a
1:05:56reinforcing factor on on on their end
1:05:59tunnel visions a major cause of wrongful
1:06:02conviction it's when a so in some one
1:06:04forms a conclusion and then they only
1:06:06look for evidence to support that
1:06:08conclusion and ignore other evidence and
1:06:10come up with bizarre explanations rather
1:06:12than just going whichever way the
1:06:14evidence flowed that having been said I
1:06:17do want to share that I don't consider
1:06:20that what happened to me to be a
1:06:22good-faith error because the bottom
1:06:24drops out of that argument when you
1:06:26think about that not only did they know
1:06:30that interrogation tactics that they
1:06:32engaged in you know closing the false
1:06:34promise but also the police went into
1:06:38the field and they interviewed 17
1:06:40witnesses who knew the victim in one
1:06:41capacity or another and they all told
1:06:44the police that she didn't have a
1:06:45boyfriend there was no consensual sex
1:06:47and the police purposely did not
1:06:50document any of those witness interviews
1:06:52and so therefore that was not known by
1:06:55the defense they didn't have to turn it
1:06:56over I only learned about that aspect in
1:06:59the course of the lawsuit many years
1:07:01many many years later so there was that
1:07:05there was that part to it also but
1:07:08lastly not
1:07:10too far in the leads but not content
1:07:13with having coercive confession from me
1:07:15with the threat the false promise but
1:07:17they also fabricated a statement and
1:07:19attributed to me the police claim that
1:07:22this is the polygraph us and one of the
1:07:24other police officers they claimed that
1:07:26I told them that that I didn't know
1:07:29whether the perpetrator ejaculated or
1:07:33not and you know they attributed it to
1:07:35me in order to help the prosecutor fight
1:07:37against the DNA test but I never said
1:07:40that I mean firstly that wasn't in my
1:07:41vocabulary's a 16 year old and secondly
1:07:45as the judge in the federal lawsuit
1:07:49pointed out they never that that
1:07:51statement never appeared in any of their
1:07:54reports about what happened in the
1:07:56interrogation that never appeared until
1:07:58after the DNA didn't match me that's
1:08:01when they suddenly included it in there
1:08:03and they're right up so for all those
1:08:05factors I don't I don't consider that it
1:08:08was a good-faith error on the part of
1:08:09the police and our final question will
1:08:13come from Alan Berger Alan go ahead
1:08:15you're unmuted ok Jeff thank you so much
1:08:19for tremendous presentation and story I
1:08:22don't know if you've heard of liberation
1:08:25prison yoga but on we go into prisons to
1:08:28work with people around trauma through
1:08:30yoga and meditation I was just wondering
1:08:32even in prison and when you came out how
1:08:35what tools or how did you deal with the
1:08:39trauma of that experience from all those
1:08:41years well definitely definitely Singh
1:08:46mental health professionals I mean to
1:08:47get specifically into it I mean there
1:08:49was it was client centered therapy that
1:08:52was part of it and I did spend some of
1:08:55the time just focusing on a managing
1:08:57life so activities of daily living I did
1:09:00also utilize EMDR so eye movement the
1:09:04sensation so what happens is that day
1:09:06it's a technique it involves a light and
1:09:08really involves remembering traumatic
1:09:11experiences and so the end result is
1:09:13that you they it seeks to remove the
1:09:16emotion away from traumatic experiences
1:09:18so that you don't have
1:09:20reaction so I think that those things
1:09:22were really um those things are really
1:09:24big certainly the more technology I
1:09:28learned the more tied into the world
1:09:30that I that I felt people I did meet key
1:09:35people along the way who helped me with
1:09:37one thing or another and I think that
1:09:39the people that were that were there for
1:09:42a certain period of time those were much
1:09:46more helpful than just regular people
1:09:49because it gave me something stable and
1:09:53consistent and otherwise uncertain world
1:09:56world I haven't heard of the actually
1:09:58yeah I did I did hear the president they
1:10:00were just getting started with that in
1:10:01New York at least at the time when you
1:10:04know I was shortly before I was
1:10:06exonerated but you know I don't you know
1:10:09hats off to you on doing that continue
1:10:11to do that I know that in general
1:10:13prisoners we really value contact with
1:10:17the outside we really really appreciate
1:10:18the volunteers coming in that that's the
1:10:21highlight of that's the highlight of the
1:10:23month it could be the highlight of the
1:10:25year so that's that's really good I'll
1:10:27share that you know I I do Co own a game
1:10:31called recharge beyond the bars reentry
1:10:33game which facilitates reentry for a
1:10:36formula course where people helps them
1:10:37to connect with friends and family
1:10:39through posing icebreaker type questions
1:10:42and we also have a prison version of
1:10:45that so I will just wanted to mention
1:10:48mention that as well we need we need we
1:10:50need more of the program you're
1:10:52mentioning in other other programs and
1:10:54techniques and we need to cut down on
1:10:57you know just a verbal abuse and that
1:11:00goes on you know between when the guards
1:11:02are not professional and no one corrects
1:11:04them and the violence prisoners
1:11:06prisoners against prisoners I mean we
1:11:08really need to stop having
1:11:10rehabilitation of prison happened
1:11:12despite the prison instead more because
1:11:14of it and we look at you know other
1:11:16countries in Europe they seem to be like
1:11:18years ahead of us in terms of how they
1:11:20treat prisoners and how their whole
1:11:22prison system is so you know I feel
1:11:25strongly about that because people are
1:11:27sent to prison as punishment right
1:11:30they're not sent to prison
1:11:31or punishment there's a you know really
1:11:34big difference in that I want to just
1:11:40quickly just take a second I'll be fast
1:11:42but I just want to share one one story
1:11:44you know really quickly you know just
1:11:46speaking to the idea of you know
1:11:49dehumanization
1:11:50not being an option I remember that I
1:11:53was in the federal court during the
1:11:56during my lawsuit and we brought the
1:12:00actual perpetrator in a deposition you
1:12:03know the theory of it was that you know
1:12:05we were trying to show that the police
1:12:09theory of how the crime happened that
1:12:11matched my coerced confession that that
1:12:13idea came from them but that wasn't how
1:12:15the actual crime happen and so to
1:12:17establish how the crime happened we
1:12:19called the actual perpetrator and while
1:12:23while we were there while we're there in
1:12:27that in that in that in that deposition
1:12:29you know somebody told me
1:12:31we've got close to lunch that hey he's
1:12:35not he's not going to eat and they
1:12:37laughed about it and I said well what do
1:12:39you mean well know whether they're we're
1:12:40gonna burn him he's not he's not gonna
1:12:42eat he's not gonna eat anything and I
1:12:44said no you no you're not he's gonna eat
1:12:46and I was told well what do you care
1:12:49look he killed two people he remained
1:12:52silent while you know you were doing
1:12:55time for his crime you know and then
1:12:59they said something else derogatory
1:13:01about him okay I'm not gonna repeat I
1:13:03think you can figure out so I I said no
1:13:07you know what that's why he's locked up
1:13:09that's why he's incarcerated okay he's
1:13:12going to eat you're gonna ask him as a
1:13:14matter of fact you're gonna ask him when
1:13:16we come back in here you're gonna ask
1:13:18him
1:13:18I know did he eat lunch and if you don't
1:13:21I am and so we came back after lunch he
1:13:27was asked in my presence you know was he
1:13:29was he given was he given something to
1:13:31eat you know and it was confirmed you
1:13:34know that that that he did and so I mean
1:13:36in that moment you know I mean I felt
1:13:38really you know I felt really let's just
1:13:40really good about myself but I mean
1:13:41that's an illustration I mean
1:13:43dehumanization is not
1:13:44an option I mean looking at terrible
1:13:46things that people do or even things
1:13:49that terrible people do that can't be a
1:13:52reason for mistreatment is a Balu level
1:13:55below which we shouldn't go and if we do
1:13:58that then we betray ourselves in our own
1:14:00humanity Thank You Jeff that is an
1:14:03extraordinary story deeply moving we
1:14:07really appreciate your coming out well
1:14:09you didn't come out obviously yeah read
1:14:14you know what I mean right thank you
1:14:15very much

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