Jeffrey Dahmer interview with Stone Philips — Transcript

Full transcript

1. 0:15talking about a lot of different things
2. 0:18hey you're lucky it came up on the day
3. 0:19when there's no snow it's snowing like
4. 0:21crazy all weekend is that right no
5. 0:24how are things going here for you
6. 0:26slow and steady
7. 0:28nothing uh nothing out of the ordinary
8. 0:31really
9. 0:32you've read the book
10. 0:34yes
11. 0:35yes i read the book uh
12. 0:38my dad sent it to me uh about last week
13. 0:41and uh spent all night reading it
14. 0:44was up all night reading is uh quite a
15. 0:47surprise to me some parts of it
16. 0:49very interesting in what sense
17. 0:52uh
18. 0:54just uh some of the things that were
19. 0:56revealed uh caught me off guard
20. 1:00and uh
21. 1:03just some some very big surprises in it
22. 1:05for me what was it that caught you off
23. 1:07guard
24. 1:07uh some of some of his insights into uh
25. 1:12what he thought of me as i was growing
26. 1:14up
27. 1:18all set
28. 1:19everybody ready
29. 1:22okay let's take all take a deep breath
30. 1:24your dad comes here to visit about once
31. 1:26a month but i get the impression that
32. 1:29that the two of you
33. 1:32don't talk a lot about everything that
34. 1:33happened
35. 1:34about the crimes in particular
36. 1:36no we we don't discuss that because it's
37. 1:39been
38. 1:40it's been
39. 1:42gone over so thoroughly in the papers
40. 1:44and in the media that
41. 1:47there's just really no point in going in
42. 1:50depth
43. 1:50into any in-depth talks about it we we
44. 1:53talk about
45. 1:55our family
46. 1:57home how things used to be
47. 2:00what
48. 2:01prison life is here is like here now
49. 2:04and
50. 2:06try to keep things as as light and
51. 2:09upbeat as possible is it hard for you to
52. 2:11go back and talk about those things
53. 2:13uh
54. 2:17no not not the good things in fact it
55. 2:19gives me a sense of comfort to talk
56. 2:21about
57. 2:23the few good times there were
58. 2:24in the past
59. 2:26you say the few good times
60. 2:28do you think of your childhood as having
61. 2:30been
62. 2:31profoundly unhappy
63. 2:33no not profoundly my childhood wasn't
64. 2:36wasn't
65. 2:38filled with any any great tragedies or
66. 2:41anything there were good times and there
67. 2:43were bad times
68. 2:44i think it was fairly normal
69. 2:47jeff do you remember your earliest
70. 2:50experience and earliest interest
71. 2:51fascination with the inside of animals
72. 2:54where that came from
73. 2:56in ninth grade
74. 2:58uh in biology class we had
75. 3:01the usual dissection of fetal pigs i
76. 3:04took the remains of that home and kept
77. 3:08the skeleton
78. 3:09of it
79. 3:10and i just started branching out
80. 3:14dogs
81. 3:15cats
82. 3:17i suppose it could have turned into a a
83. 3:20normal
84. 3:21hobby like taxidermy but it didn't
85. 3:23veered off into
86. 3:25into this
87. 3:27why i don't know
88. 3:29all i know is that
89. 3:31i wanted to to
90. 3:32see what the insides of these animals
91. 3:34looked like was there some pleasure in
92. 3:37in the cutting open of the animal yes
93. 3:39there was
94. 3:41no no sexual pleasure but just a
95. 3:44it's hard to describe sense of power
96. 3:47sense of control i suppose that's a good
97. 3:48way of putting it yeah
98. 3:50yeah
99. 3:51i can sort of see
100. 3:54a fascination for you know wanting to
101. 3:56see
102. 3:58or for looking at the insides of animals
103. 4:01say for the first time
104. 4:02after you did it one time
105. 4:05what more
106. 4:06is to be gained by looking at another
107. 4:08dog's
108. 4:09inside the second third i don't know
109. 4:12that's it became a compulsion and it
110. 4:14switched from
111. 4:15animals to humans i i still don't
112. 4:18understand it
113. 4:19i don't know why what would you do with
114. 4:21the with the dead animals jeff you would
115. 4:23pick the carcasses up from the road and
116. 4:25take them back into the woods take them
117. 4:27back in the woods
118. 4:29skinned them sometimes
119. 4:33slit them slit them all the way open
120. 4:36look at the organs feel them there was a
121. 4:38sort of
122. 4:39general excitement for me i don't know
123. 4:41why
124. 4:42it was it was exciting to see
125. 4:45one of your dad's biggest questions is
126. 4:47when you began to slip away
127. 4:51when you
128. 4:53crossed over into this world of
129. 4:56obsession or dark fantasy
130. 5:00from which you just couldn't return
131. 5:03can you pinpoint that do you is there a
132. 5:05sense for when that really began to
133. 5:06happen with you jeff
134. 5:08i think it was a around age 14 or 15.
135. 5:12started have having obsessive
136. 5:15uh thoughts of
137. 5:19violence
138. 5:21intermingled with sex
139. 5:24and it just got worse and worse
140. 5:27i didn't know how to tell anyone about
141. 5:29it so i didn't i just kept it all inside
142. 5:33do you have any sense for where that was
143. 5:34coming from
144. 5:36no
145. 5:38no i've talked with
146. 5:40a few psychologists about it they they
147. 5:42have their theories but they don't have
148. 5:44any concrete answers either do you have
149. 5:46a theory
150. 5:48no not really
151. 5:49i i don't know where where it came from
152. 5:53i probably will never know
153. 5:57but i i never i never dreamed that it
154. 5:59would uh become a reality apprehend
155. 6:03what was it jeff that took you over the
156. 6:05edge do you think
157. 6:07and
158. 6:08made you take this from the world of
159. 6:09fantasy into reality
160. 6:11from 15 on i had this recurring fantasy
161. 6:15of
162. 6:16of
163. 6:17meeting a hitchhiker
164. 6:19on the road
165. 6:20and
166. 6:22of taking him hostage and
167. 6:24and
168. 6:25doing what i wanted with him
169. 6:27about three years later i was 18 years
170. 6:29old
171. 6:31driving home
172. 6:35i saw this hitchhiker about a mile from
173. 6:37my house
174. 6:38thought to myself should i stop and pick
175. 6:40him up or should i just keep on going
176. 6:44i wish i just keep on kept on going but
177. 6:46i didn't turned around picked him up
178. 6:50and
179. 6:52that's when
180. 6:54that's when it the nightmare became a
181. 6:56reality
182. 6:58it just seemed so bizarre to me that
183. 7:02this obsession that i had been thinking
184. 7:04about
185. 7:05and wanting
186. 7:07just uh
187. 7:09all the all the parts are there and they
188. 7:12make it possible to make it happen what
189. 7:14happened after you took him to the house
190. 7:16the house was empty
191. 7:18my mother was
192. 7:20up in chippewa falls with her family
193. 7:22and my dad was living in a in a uh
194. 7:25rented motel about five miles away
195. 7:28due to the divorce
196. 7:31and i i pretty much had the place
197. 7:34to myself
198. 7:35i was drinking a lot during that time
199. 7:38and just
200. 7:41i don't know looking for something to
201. 7:43some way to find some fulfillment
202. 7:46some
203. 7:48some pleasure
204. 7:50and i acted on my fantasies and that's
205. 7:53where everything went wrong
206. 7:55this was the summer of 1978 when you
207. 7:57took your first victim right
208. 8:00once
209. 8:01it happened the first time
210. 8:05it just seemed like it had control of my
211. 8:07life from there on in
212. 8:09the second occurrence was 1988
213. 8:12roughly
214. 8:14and i met this guy at one of the
215. 8:16bars downtown milwaukee bars
216. 8:19we went back to the hotel
217. 8:22just planning on
218. 8:24getting drunk i had put some sleeping
219. 8:26pills in his drink
220. 8:28to render him unconscious
221. 8:31and
222. 8:33was just going to spend the night with
223. 8:34him
224. 8:36when i woke up in the morning
225. 8:39uh
226. 8:40my forearms were bruised
227. 8:43and his chest was
228. 8:44was bruised and blood was coming out of
229. 8:46his mouth
230. 8:47he was hanging over the side of the bed
231. 8:50and uh i have no memory of beating him
232. 8:53to death but i must have
233. 8:56and that's when it when it all started
234. 8:58again
235. 9:01and once it started again you found it
236. 9:03impossible to stop right that that's
237. 9:04when the the obsession went into full
238. 9:07swing
239. 9:08did you ever tell yourself
240. 9:11i have to stop this
241. 9:13i must stop doing this
242. 9:16yes when it was going on
243. 9:19after after the second time
244. 9:22it seemed like the compulsion to do it
245. 9:24was too strong and i i didn't even try
246. 9:26to stop it after that
247. 9:28but after
248. 9:29before the second time
249. 9:31things have been building up gradually
250. 9:34going to bookstores going to
251. 9:36uh the bars the gay bars
252. 9:39bath clubs
253. 9:41when that when that wasn't enough
254. 9:44uh buying sleeping pills and using it on
255. 9:47various guys in the bath clubs it just
256. 9:50escalated slowly but surely
257. 9:53and after the second time
258. 9:55which was
259. 9:57not planned
260. 10:00it was out of control felt like it was
261. 10:02out of control
262. 10:05where did sex enter in
263. 10:07to the killings jeff it was a big part
264. 10:10of it
265. 10:11my only objective was to find the best
266. 10:13looking
267. 10:15guy that i could their sexual preference
268. 10:17didn't matter to me
269. 10:19uh
270. 10:20did their race matter to you no their
271. 10:22race didn't matter to me the first the
272. 10:24first two
273. 10:25young men were white the
274. 10:27third young man was american indian the
275. 10:30fourth
276. 10:31and fifth were hispanic
277. 10:34so no
278. 10:35race had nothing to do with it it was
279. 10:36just their looks
280. 10:39was there
281. 10:40something sexual in the dismemberment of
282. 10:42the bodies for you
283. 10:45as time went on
284. 10:48uh yes i i did get a there was a sexual
285. 10:52part part to that
286. 10:54uh
287. 10:55i started
288. 10:56saving the skeletons
289. 10:59and
290. 11:01preserving other parts
291. 11:03and
292. 11:05one thing led to another it took it took
293. 11:07more and more
294. 11:09uh
295. 11:11deviant-type behaviors to satisfy
296. 11:15my urges and so it just
297. 11:18spiraled out of control
298. 11:20why the cannibalism
299. 11:22it made me feel like they were
300. 11:25a permanent part of me
301. 11:28besides besides the just mere curiosity
302. 11:31of what it would be like it made them
303. 11:32feel that they were a part of me and it
304. 11:34gave me a
305. 11:35sexual uh
306. 11:38satisfaction to do that
307. 11:43was it the killing that excited you
308. 11:46or is it what happened after the killing
309. 11:48no the the killing was just a means to
310. 11:50an end that that was the least uh
311. 11:53satisfactory part i didn't enjoy doing
312. 11:55that that's why
313. 11:57i tried to
314. 11:59create living zombies
315. 12:02with uh
316. 12:03uric acid and the drill
317. 12:07but it never worked now the killing
318. 12:08wasn't wasn't the objective i just
319. 12:11wanted to have
320. 12:12the person under my complete control
321. 12:15not having to
322. 12:16to consider their wishes
323. 12:19being able to keep them there as long as
324. 12:20i wanted
325. 12:24not easy to say that but that's
326. 12:26that's what the motive was where did
327. 12:28that need for control come from
328. 12:30do you have any idea i don't know maybe
329. 12:33i felt uh
330. 12:34i had no control as a child or a young
331. 12:37adult
332. 12:38and
333. 12:40that got mixed in with my sexuality and
334. 12:44i ended up
335. 12:47doing what i did was my way of feeling
336. 12:50in in complete control at least for that
337. 12:52situation
338. 12:53creating my own little world where i had
339. 12:56the final say
340. 12:57uh
341. 12:58finding the best looking guy that i
342. 13:00could
343. 13:01and uh having total mastery over him for
344. 13:04as long as i wanted
345. 13:05lust played a big part of it
346. 13:08controlling lust
347. 13:09that
348. 13:10that was the motive
349. 13:13right there
350. 13:14a lot of this came out in the course of
351. 13:16the trial obviously both of you sat
352. 13:18through this have the two of you sat
353. 13:20down and talked about these things
354. 13:22before
355. 13:23no
356. 13:24not in depth
357. 13:26this is the first time you're talking
358. 13:27about these things
359. 13:29i've talked to your dad here at great
360. 13:31length with with uh psychiatrist court
361. 13:33appointed psychiatrists psychologists
362. 13:36but uh not with my family
363. 13:39we learned we learned everything at the
364. 13:40trial and in the confessions and that
365. 13:43sort of thing after the fact
366. 13:46the two of you never really communicated
367. 13:48all that much did you father and son
368. 13:52not only not at any deep
369. 13:54deep level no
370. 13:56we talked about superficial things
371. 13:58uh never really had a
372. 14:01real deep heart-to-heart talk about what
373. 14:03was going on
374. 14:05inside our own minds
375. 14:08i was i was always a very private person
376. 14:11i didn't like to
377. 14:12open up and share anything with anyone
378. 14:15i like to keep my
379. 14:18thoughts to myself
380. 14:20why do you think that was
381. 14:24because
382. 14:26from about
383. 14:2715 years on up a great deal of my
384. 14:31thoughts were
385. 14:34basically unshareable with anyone
386. 14:38so i just closed myself off
387. 14:41and
388. 14:42put on a mask of normalcy
389. 14:47you've read the book right
390. 14:49he called it a father's story pretty
391. 14:51simple title right
392. 14:54not a simple story though
393. 14:56no not a simple story
394. 14:59not one that was easy for me to read
395. 15:02but uh i'm glad he wrote it did it hurt
396. 15:06was it painful to read yes it was
397. 15:08painful some parts of it
398. 15:10were uh
399. 15:14for me were even fun to read there were
400. 15:16there were good parts it wasn't all
401. 15:18negative was it emotional for you
402. 15:20reading the book yes it was
403. 15:22tell me what kind of feelings did you
404. 15:24have reading it uh deep regret
405. 15:29um
406. 15:32sorrow
407. 15:33i guess those were the two main emotions
408. 15:36is there anything in this book that you
409. 15:38strongly disagree with
410. 15:42uh yes i i disagree with
411. 15:44the description of me as as being
412. 15:47so uh incredibly shy and introverted
413. 15:51because maybe that's that's the way my
414. 15:53dad saw me because
415. 15:55there was there was so much tension in
416. 15:57the home that i really didn't
417. 16:00feel like being up
418. 16:02and uh
419. 16:03happy a lot of the times
420. 16:06uh but with my friends in school
421. 16:09uh i had i had a good time we had good
422. 16:12you know good social life
423. 16:14and so i wasn't uh so
424. 16:17so extremely reclusive
425. 16:20and uh
426. 16:22self-centered as it portrays me does it
427. 16:24surprise you to hear jeff say that he
428. 16:26doesn't think of himself and never did
429. 16:27as innately shy it did surprise me
430. 16:31maybe my perception was
431. 16:34accentuated to the extreme but you do
432. 16:37recall at age six that you became
433. 16:40more aware of tensions in the home oh
434. 16:42yeah that's that's the time i really
435. 16:45really remember uh
436. 16:47noticing that things weren't quite right
437. 16:49so it wasn't so much in a chinese as it
438. 16:51was wanting to
439. 16:53withdraw from tension and arguments and
440. 16:57problems in the house that's how i saw
441. 16:58it yeah i uh
442. 17:02sort of uh
443. 17:03lived in my own little fantasy world
444. 17:05when things got too heated
445. 17:07in the household
446. 17:08and uh
447. 17:10i carried that over for for years i
448. 17:12guess
449. 17:13and was there violence in that fantasy
450. 17:15world
451. 17:17no not early on not not that uh not the
452. 17:20type to show itself later no
453. 17:22it was just uh
454. 17:26just my own little world where i had
455. 17:28control
456. 17:29was was anger a part of it for you jeff
457. 17:34i had some anger
458. 17:35probably every kid has some anger you
459. 17:37know about their childhood
460. 17:39uh it really wasn't
461. 17:43wasn't a terrible childhood though you
462. 17:45know there were a lot of good times it
463. 17:47wasn't uh
464. 17:50it wasn't a really terrible time
465. 17:52so pat theories about
466. 17:55you as a serial killer striking out to
467. 17:57get back at your dad
468. 18:01no that has no truth in it the only
469. 18:04motive
470. 18:05that there ever was was to completely
471. 18:07control a person a person that i found
472. 18:10physically attractive
473. 18:12and
474. 18:13keep them with me as long as possible
475. 18:16even if it meant just keeping
476. 18:18a part of them
477. 18:20did you know before you read this book
478. 18:21that your dad had
479. 18:24his own
480. 18:26obsessions and fantasies that he had
481. 18:29thought about that he had
482. 18:32dreamed of committing murder that he had
483. 18:35had an obsession with fire and with
484. 18:37explosives
485. 18:38no that's
486. 18:41i don't think that's the type of thing
487. 18:42one asks one's dad
488. 18:44were you surprised to read that about
489. 18:45your dad uh very surprised
490. 18:51i didn't know what to think about it
491. 18:53i suppose everyone has their their
492. 18:55secret thoughts and
493. 18:59so
494. 19:00it was somewhat of a shock
495. 19:02you feel grateful that your father wrote
496. 19:04this book
497. 19:06or do you feel
498. 19:07put off by it i'm just curious about
499. 19:09your your overall reaction to it do you
500. 19:11feel
501. 19:12is the book an invasion
502. 19:14do you think or is it no i know i i feel
503. 19:17uh
504. 19:18nothing but pride for him for writing
505. 19:20the book and having the courage to bear
506. 19:24his soul when he didn't have to he he
507. 19:27didn't have to get involved with uh
508. 19:29trying to so you know help me out and
509. 19:32support me and be an emotional support
510. 19:34for me and i'll be grateful to him
511. 19:37forever for it
512. 19:38did you ever consider talking to your
513. 19:40parents to your dad about homosexuality
514. 19:45is that something that you felt you
515. 19:46could ever raise early on
516. 19:49i really didn't know that much about it
517. 19:51myself
518. 19:52all i knew was that it was something
519. 19:54that
520. 19:55was to be kept hush hush not
521. 19:58talked about not even thought about
522. 20:01so i just kept it all within me and
523. 20:04never
524. 20:06never talked about sexual
525. 20:08issues at all really
526. 20:10with anybody
527. 20:12do you think if you had been able to
528. 20:14talk about that in a more open way
529. 20:18with your dad for instance that it would
530. 20:20have
531. 20:21helped might have broken this
532. 20:24veil of secrecy and enabled you to
533. 20:28keep yourself from going down that road
534. 20:31well i don't know exactly what if
535. 20:33anything would have ever kept me from
536. 20:35going down that road talking about it i
537. 20:37don't think would have made that much
538. 20:38difference
539. 20:39because like i said there were things
540. 20:40going on in my head that
541. 20:42i would have never opened up and talked
542. 20:44about with anybody your dad says he
543. 20:46never realized
544. 20:48how deeply troubled you were because he
545. 20:50just thought you were shy the way he had
546. 20:51been
547. 20:52shy as a boy
548. 20:54do you think the signs were there
549. 20:56and he just missed them
550. 20:58no i don't think so
551. 21:00because uh
552. 21:03i had thoughts i had fantasies but there
553. 21:05was there was no
554. 21:07outward show of of anything that was
555. 21:09wrong
556. 21:11you were pretty good at keeping it all
557. 21:13inside i kept it inside
558. 21:15didn't share any of my
559. 21:17thoughts or emotions with anybody
560. 21:19so how would i ever know
561. 21:21no you never saw any of it
562. 21:23as far as i know
563. 21:25i did not really hear from anyone about
564. 21:28any of these activities
565. 21:31and that that's what really strikes me
566. 21:33now is if i would if i would have known
567. 21:37what would i have done about it
568. 21:39i think i would have done a lot about it
569. 21:42i feel it's uh
570. 21:43wrong for people who commit crimes to
571. 21:45try to shift the blame onto somebody
572. 21:47else on to their parents or
573. 21:49onto their their
574. 21:51upbringing or circle or living
575. 21:53circumstances i i think that's just a
576. 21:55cop-out
577. 21:56and
578. 21:58my parents my relatives had no knowledge
579. 22:02of what i was doing they're absolutely
580. 22:04not responsible for any of it in any way
581. 22:07and
582. 22:09i take full responsibility but you
583. 22:12understand but you understand that what
584. 22:14you did would lead your father
585. 22:18to ask himself all kinds of questions
586. 22:20where did i go wrong was there something
587. 22:22i could have said or done to have
588. 22:24prevented this right did i in some way
589. 22:27create or contribute
590. 22:29to the terrible acts my son committed i
591. 22:33understand that i i just get angry with
592. 22:36other people who
593. 22:37who think that they have a right to
594. 22:42to
595. 22:43somehow try to blame
596. 22:46my parents for what happened that's not
597. 22:48right at all no one has the right to do
598. 22:50that because they're totally innocent
599. 22:51they had no knowledge of it
600. 22:53and
601. 22:54that angers me
602. 22:56but parents just naturally i mean any
603. 22:58parent that really cares they just
604. 23:02first of all say i see i feel guilty you
605. 23:04know like there's just feelings of guilt
606. 23:07what happened what did i do what could i
607. 23:09have done so that's a normal parental
608. 23:11reaction
609. 23:12your dad has wondered about all kinds of
610. 23:14things from the medication that your mom
611. 23:16was on during her pregnancy
612. 23:18to the fact that you were exposed to
613. 23:20violent arguments in the home from an
614. 23:22early age and continuing
615. 23:24to the possibility that he might have
616. 23:26passed on some genetic propensity for
617. 23:29obsession or violent behavior
618. 23:32does any of that
619. 23:34ring true to you
620. 23:37i can see why he'd wonder about those
621. 23:38things but as far as i'm concerned
622. 23:40they're all excuses
623. 23:42because i didn't feel accountable to
624. 23:44anybody i didn't feel that i had to
625. 23:47to face what i had done ever and
626. 23:51so you have there comes a point where a
627. 23:53person has to
628. 23:55has to be accountable for what he's done
629. 23:57can't go
630. 23:58can't go around making excuses
631. 24:00uh blaming other people
632. 24:02or other things
633. 24:03so i i alone am the one who's
634. 24:05responsible for what's happened let me
635. 24:08ask when did you first feel
636. 24:10that that everyone is accountable for
637. 24:13their
638. 24:14actions
639. 24:16well thanks to you for for sending uh
640. 24:18that uh
641. 24:20creation science
642. 24:22uh
643. 24:23material
644. 24:25because i always i always believe the uh
645. 24:29the lie that uh
646. 24:31evolution is truth the theory of
647. 24:33evolution is truth that we all just came
648. 24:35from
649. 24:36the slime and uh when we when we died
650. 24:39you know that was it there was nothing
651. 24:42so
652. 24:42the whole theory cheapens life
653. 24:45and started reading books
654. 24:48about how
655. 24:49that show how evolution is is just a
656. 24:51complete lie there's there's no
657. 24:53there's no basis in science to uphold it
658. 24:56and i've come to since come to believe
659. 24:58that
660. 25:00the lord jesus christ is the true
661. 25:03creator of the heavens and the earth it
662. 25:06just didn't just happen
663. 25:08and i have accepted him as my lord and
664. 25:10savior
665. 25:11and i believe that i as want as well as
666. 25:14everyone else
667. 25:15will be accountable to him
668. 25:17growing up did you feel that you were
669. 25:19accountable to your dad or to your mom
670. 25:22as the authority yes you're in the house
671. 25:24yes i did
672. 25:26i mean they didn't let me uh run wild
673. 25:28they were
674. 25:29they disciplined me
675. 25:31and uh
676. 25:33so i felt accountable to them but
677. 25:35afterwards
678. 25:36after i left the home
679. 25:38that's that's when i
680. 25:42started wanting to
681. 25:44sort of create my own little world where
682. 25:46i could be the one who had the complete
683. 25:48control
684. 25:49where i didn't have to uh
685. 25:51about anyone else's demands
686. 25:54and
687. 25:54i just took it way too far
688. 25:59well at that period of time i had
689. 26:02drifted away from a belief
690. 26:04in a supreme being
691. 26:07and i never
692. 26:09as a result passed along
693. 26:11the feeling that we are all accountable
694. 26:15in the end he owns us
695. 26:18and that basic concept
696. 26:21is very fundamental to all of us you
697. 26:24feel that the absence at least for a
698. 26:26while of a strong religious faith and
699. 26:28belief for some years may have prevented
700. 26:31you from
701. 26:32instilling some of that in jeff that's
702. 26:33right
703. 26:35is that how you feel
704. 26:37yes i think i had a big a big part to do
705. 26:39to do with it
706. 26:42i mean uh
707. 26:43if you don't if a person doesn't think
708. 26:45that there there is a god to be
709. 26:47accountable to
710. 26:49then then what's what's the point of of
711. 26:52trying to uh modify your behavior to
712. 26:55keep it within acceptable ranges
713. 26:57that's how i thought anyway
714. 27:00and uh i've since come to believe that
715. 27:03the lord jesus christ is truly god
716. 27:06the father the son and the holy spirit
717. 27:09they're the only true god
718. 27:12what do you remember about
719. 27:14your parents arguing when you were
720. 27:16growing up and
721. 27:18what effect that had on you
722. 27:22it was it was unnerving depressing
723. 27:25made me angry sometimes
724. 27:29i'd leave the house go out in the woods
725. 27:31and
726. 27:32sulk brooding you know wondering why
727. 27:35they had to
728. 27:36have such a rough relationship
729. 27:39uh most of the time they didn't seem to
730. 27:41get along too well together i never knew
731. 27:43what the real
732. 27:45real underlying problems were
733. 27:47i didn't i didn't feel it was my place
734. 27:49to ask did you blame one of the other
735. 27:51mom and dad no
736. 27:54no i didn't i was just frustrated that
737. 27:55things couldn't be uh happier around the
738. 27:58house
739. 27:59you just wanted things to be
740. 28:01more peaceful right
741. 28:03right
742. 28:04i never saw any any real violent
743. 28:06arguments as far as physical
744. 28:08uh hitting or anything like that but
745. 28:11there was a lot of yelling
746. 28:14a lot of tension in the house sometimes
747. 28:17one of the one of the chilling stories
748. 28:20that your dad tells
749. 28:22is about the box he had found
750. 28:25can you give me your
751. 28:26your perspective on that
752. 28:28i had a box in my uh
753. 28:31bedroom closet
754. 28:33and uh it
755. 28:36it uh
756. 28:37contained the mummified
757. 28:40head
758. 28:40and
759. 28:41genitals of a young man i met in one of
760. 28:46the bars down in milwaukee
761. 28:49and it was a locked metal box
762. 28:52my dad
763. 28:54one week came to visit
764. 28:57and happened to see it and uh we got
765. 28:59into uh
766. 29:00a bit of an argument because i wouldn't
767. 29:02open it up
768. 29:04he uh
769. 29:06took the the locked box down to the
770. 29:08basement
771. 29:10and was about to smash it open
772. 29:13what were you thinking as he was making
773. 29:15his way downstairs to open the box well
774. 29:17i was outside
775. 29:18and i was
776. 29:20thinking i've got to stop this from
777. 29:21happening
778. 29:25i didn't know what i'd do or say i
779. 29:27didn't know what would happen i thought
780. 29:29you know it's all going to come crashing
781. 29:31down now
782. 29:32and uh
783. 29:34but the box was never opened
784. 29:37uh not my dad's presence
785. 29:40and so
786. 29:41the uh the lies continued
787. 29:45the whole scenario just
788. 29:47continued for years after that
789. 29:49were there times when your dad may have
790. 29:52been closer to discovering what was
791. 29:54going on than even he knew
792. 29:57times where you got worried that maybe
793. 29:59he would find something out
794. 30:01the box incident was about
795. 30:03as close as it came yeah
796. 30:06that was just one incident there were
797. 30:08there were others
798. 30:10but that was a
799. 30:11particularly
800. 30:12nerve-wracking one
801. 30:14are there others you can you can share
802. 30:19other close calls
803. 30:21uh
804. 30:22when acidified dissolved human remains
805. 30:26were found they weren't
806. 30:28they didn't look like human remains
807. 30:29anymore but they were in the
808. 30:31trash bin
809. 30:32outside in the
810. 30:34garage um
811. 30:36that was one incident
812. 30:39and i
813. 30:42a few others i'd rather not go into
814. 30:44right now
815. 30:45were you relieved to be arrested
816. 30:50part of me part of me was and part of me
817. 30:53wasn't
818. 30:55explain
819. 30:58uh
820. 30:59i don't know it's it's like
821. 31:02i don't believe i have a split
822. 31:03personality but you you know the feeling
823. 31:05where oh you're you're sort of glad
824. 31:08about something but on the other hand
825. 31:09you're not
826. 31:10that's that's how it was i was it was a
827. 31:12relief not to have to uh
828. 31:15keep such a gigantic secret that i had
829. 31:18kept for so many years
830. 31:20and once i saw that i had no choice but
831. 31:22to face it
832. 31:24i decided to face it head-on
833. 31:26and
834. 31:28make a full confession
835. 31:30so i i am glad that the secrets are gone
836. 31:36your father told me that one of the
837. 31:38reasons he wrote this book
838. 31:40was in order to put down on paper what
839. 31:42he has been unable to say to you
840. 31:45in words
841. 31:48kind of reaching out to you
842. 31:52what do you want to say to him having
843. 31:53read this
844. 31:55i tell you dad i'm really sorry that
845. 31:57this has happened and i love you a lot i
846. 32:00love you too
847. 32:03i'm sorry
848. 32:04don't be sorry
849. 32:07we uh we haven't always shown it a lot
850. 32:09but i i do love him
851. 32:11a great deal
852. 32:14i love you and
853. 32:16without the without the support of my
854. 32:18folks
855. 32:20uh
856. 32:22i don't think i would have come through
857. 32:24this we we've opened up with each other
858. 32:26a lot more now since since the trial and
859. 32:28everything there's no secrets to be
860. 32:31to be hidden away you know i don't feel
861. 32:33that i have to keep any secrets from him
862. 32:37we've come to face what's real now
863. 32:39instead of just glossing things over and
864. 32:41talking about superficial things
865. 32:44so there's there's a lot there's a lot
866. 32:46more communication between us
867. 32:48this book may serve as as a further
868. 32:50bridge between jeff and and myself
869. 32:54and
870. 32:56just
871. 32:57for that purpose i regard it as valuable
872. 33:00for me
873. 33:02do you feel closer to your dad having
874. 33:03read this
875. 33:05i feel that i feel closer
876. 33:08in that
877. 33:09i understand more how he was thinking
878. 33:12what his thoughts were
879. 33:14um
880. 33:15what what some of his motivations were
881. 33:17i'm glad he wrote it
882. 33:20anything not in the book you want to say
883. 33:21to him
884. 33:31i i can't
885. 33:34think too clearly right now i'm
886. 33:36feeling pretty emotional
887. 33:40i think that a lot of things have been
888. 33:43brought out in this
889. 33:44interview that
890. 33:46has brought us to a little bit deeper
891. 33:48just a little bit closer understanding
892. 33:50as to how this all originated
893. 33:55and
894. 33:56well whenever i
895. 33:57get emotional my
896. 34:00analytical side is gets clouded and i
897. 34:03can't
898. 34:04express myself quite as much as well as
899. 34:06i would like
900. 34:07can you talk about the feelings you have
901. 34:10you feeling close i feel very close to
902. 34:12jeff and it's going to continue until
903. 34:14our death
904. 34:17and i feel good about it
905. 34:19do you think you'll ever have the
906. 34:20answers you've been looking for
907. 34:22about why
908. 34:24what happened
909. 34:26and what role if any you played
910. 34:30maybe not
911. 34:32with
912. 34:32my primary
913. 34:35question is the origins of it
914. 34:40and if something can be learned about
915. 34:42that it may help other people
916. 34:45avert
917. 34:46problems
918. 34:47is it still there jeff
919. 34:50does it ever go away in part no never it
920. 34:52never completely goes away
921. 34:55i'll probably have to live with it for
922. 34:57the rest of my life
923. 34:59i wish it would go away i wish i
924. 35:01there was some way to completely get rid
925. 35:03of of the the compulsive thoughts the
926. 35:05feelings
927. 35:07it's not nearly so bad now that there is
928. 35:10no
929. 35:11avenues to to actually act on it
930. 35:15but no it never seems to go completely
931. 35:17away so the thoughts still come to you
932. 35:20sometimes yeah
933. 35:22are you different jeff in terms of how
934. 35:24you think back on all of this i would
935. 35:26hope i'm different
936. 35:28uh
937. 35:30i'm glad that i i'm glad that i'm in a
938. 35:33position now where
939. 35:36i don't feel the compulsion to do these
940. 35:37things i'm glad that it's over
941. 35:39any words i say to the to the victims
942. 35:42families are just going to seem trite
943. 35:44and empty
944. 35:48i i don't know how to express
945. 35:50the regret the sorrow
946. 35:57that i feel for what i've done for their
947. 35:59for their sons
948. 36:03i can't find the right words
949. 36:07after the interview at the prison dahmer
950. 36:09casually showed us something a little
951. 36:11unsettling just a point of interest that
952. 36:14that's the type of box
953. 36:16this is the type of box he wanted us to
954. 36:18know that box looked strikingly like the
955. 36:20one his father had found the one jeffrey
956. 36:23had used to hide body parts thank you