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Jay Smith — MECCA’S ORIGINS: 10 Historical Clues You Need to Know. — Transcript

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0:00Thanks. Well, uh Peter, it's been many
0:02years that we worked together and it's
0:04great to see you again and great to be
0:06here amongst all these doctors, nurses,
0:08and dentists. Uh this is uh CMF when I
0:12was there in Britain for 25 years, the
0:14many times that you and I uh not only
0:16engaged, but also that we were able to
0:19introduce a lot of this new material.
0:20So, let me jump right into it. We're
0:22going to I'm going to have a PowerPoint.
0:24Uh this will be available to people who
0:26would like to see it. Uh later on, I
0:28will make sure that you all get it. Uh
0:30here is and I want to I want to uh look
0:34specifically at the importance of Mecca
0:38historically. That's the title that
0:40we're giving to today's talk. Looking at
0:43the newest research on these uh on the
0:46historicity. And we're going to look at
0:48three areas through these talks, three
0:50different talks. We're going to look at
0:53Mecca today, then we'll move into an
0:56assessment of the sources of early
1:00Islam. And then, on the third week that
1:03I'll be back, we'll unpack and look at
1:06the historical assessment of the Quran,
1:09which will probably be the most exciting
1:11of the three because it is it has the
1:15most material and it's probably the one
1:17that everybody's talking about at the
1:19moment. So, let's get right into what we
1:22know as a standard Islamic narrative.
1:24These are the Islamic traditions.
1:27This is what Muslims need to know
1:30how every day of their life, how to
1:32walk, talk, eat, drink, sleep. They must
1:34go to the Islamic tradition, standard
1:36Islamic narrative
1:38to find out what they're to do. Now,
1:41according to those traditions,
1:43according to the traditional claims that
1:46all Muslims make, except possibly the
1:48liberals, but all the radicals and
1:50nominals and everybody in between,
1:5399.9%
1:54of all Muslims would make, is that for
1:57the last 1,400 years, Muhammad was the
1:59last and greatest prophet who was born
2:02in Mecca in 570 AD
2:05and died in Medina in 632 AD. He is the
2:09one that modeled Islam for the world and
2:11he is the one that received the Quran.
2:14Thus, that Quran, his revelation
2:17was sent down to him between 610 and 632
2:21AD, so it is the final, the greatest,
2:24and the only perfectly preserved
2:27revelation and it is sent down to
2:30correct the previous revelations which
2:32according to the standard narrative had
2:35been corrupted.
2:37Therefore, Islam is the final religion
2:40according to this traditional claims
2:42based on Muhammad's life and sayings
2:45that would be in the Sunnah and on the
2:48Quran's teaching. So, if that is the
2:51case, conclusion,
2:52Islam is therefore completely dependent
2:55on three things, the book, the man, and
2:57the place. The book being the Quran, the
3:00man being Muhammad,
3:03and the place
3:04Mecca.
3:07Since these three areas are foundational
3:10to Islam,
3:11therefore, it is incumbent upon us to
3:14investigate them.
3:16And we want to investigate them at the
3:18time they all existed, which is the 7th
3:20century,
3:22and in the place they existed, which is
3:23that central part of Arabia known as the
3:26Hejaz, where Mecca and Medina were
3:29located. So, let's start by looking at
3:32the historicity of Mecca itself.
3:36Now, why is Mecca? Why am I starting
3:38with Mecca? Why am I doing it backwards?
3:41Usually, you start the book, the man,
3:42the place. I'm going to place, the man,
3:45and the book. I'm going backwards. And
3:47the reason I'm starting with Mecca is
3:49that Islam is dependent on these three
3:52things, like a stool with three legs.
3:56There you see the Mecca, Muhammad, and
3:59the Quran. Islam
4:01is dependent on all three for it to have
4:04any authority.
4:06When you begin to uh confront
4:09Mecca, just that one leg, the other two
4:12begin to wobble.
4:14But once you destroy that place, you
4:16then destroy the other two as well
4:18because you take away one leg, the whole
4:21edifice falls down. So, let's begin by
4:24looking in at the world in the 7th
4:26century. And when you look in the 7th
4:28century, this is the map that the
4:30standard Islamic narrative gives us.
4:32This is not my map.
4:34This is the map that Islam gives us, and
4:36they would say that Muhammad's empire
4:39included that brown area that I'm
4:40pointing to right there. So, that would
4:42include Mecca and Medina. Do you see the
4:45two cities there?
4:47He died in 632 according to the
4:50narrative. And then once he died, Abu
4:52Bakr, Umar, Uthman, and Ali took over,
4:55and that would be known as the Rashidun
4:57period. So, you have Abu Bakr from 632
5:00to 634, Umar from 634 to 644, Uthman
5:04from 644 to 656, and then Ali from 656
5:09to 661. That's how Islam expanded into
5:13the orange area, which I'm pointing to
5:15right now.
5:17>> [snorts]
5:17>> When Ali was killed in at the Battle of
5:19Siffin in 661,
5:22Muawiyah takes over, and that begins the
5:25Umayyad Caliphate. That then moved into
5:27what we know as the purple area. See the
5:29purple area. So, by the time the
5:32Umayyads uh the Umayyads come to power
5:35in 661 up until 749
5:39or 750 as I have on the map, that purple
5:42area, by 750 when the Abbasids come to
5:46power,
5:47all that area that you see in brown,
5:50orange, and purple were under the under
5:54Islam's control. That includes from
5:55Andalusia all the way to Afghanistan,
5:58from Turkey all the way down to Yemen.
6:01Today, those are the countries today.
6:04But I'm interested in the brown area.
6:07In the brown area and and bits of the
6:10orange area. That's all that I'm
6:12interested in today's talk. So, let's
6:14unpack and see what we can find. Looking
6:17at a historical assessment of Mecca.
6:20Now, why Mecca? It's where everything is
6:22in in Islam has happened as Peter said.
6:25Therefore, the book and the man are
6:28absolutely dependent on Mecca.
6:30If it did not exist, then neither did
6:33the other two. Oh, there may have been
6:35other Muhammads or there may have been
6:37other Qurans, but not in Mecca. Not
6:39[clears throat] the one from Mecca.
6:40Okay? I hope you understand that. Once
6:43you fro- confront Mecca in the 7th
6:46century, then you also confront Muhammad
6:48and the Quran in the 7th century
6:50historically. At least the Muhammad and
6:52the Quran of Islam, the ones we have
6:54today.
6:56So, what do they claim about this place?
6:59Well, according to Sura, that's the
7:02chapter 7 verse 24, Mecca is where Adam
7:04and Eve were thrown down to from the
7:06Garden of Eden. Yeah, and then according
7:09to chapter 21 verse 51 to 71 in the
7:12Quran, Abraham lived there and destroyed
7:15the idols. Mecca, according to the trade
7:18route theory and that which we get out
7:19of the standard narrative, was a center
7:22of trade north, south, east, and west.
7:24So, it should be one of the best known
7:27and best documented places on history.
7:29It's the oldest city in history cuz you
7:32don't get any older than Adam and Eve.
7:35Obviously, therefore, it's important.
7:38According to the Quran itself, it's the
7:40first sanctuary appointed to mankind.
7:42Now, it doesn't say the word Mecca, it
7:44says Bakkah in chapter 3 verse 96. The
7:47mother of settlements, according to
7:48chapter 6, it was where Adam and Eve
7:50went to as I said earlier in chapter 7,
7:53Abraham lived there as I said earlier in
7:55chapter 21, where Muhammad was born in 6
7:58and lived until 622, and was the center
8:02of the Qibla. That's the direction of
8:04all the mosques from 624 on. And chapter
8:072 verse 149 to 150 says that
8:11there above implied people had lived
8:13there from the very beginning. Yet, the
8:14only reference we find to Mecca, the
8:16city itself in the Quran, is one sura,
8:19one verse, only one verse, chapter 48
8:22verse 24. All these other references
8:24talk about the place of the prophet, the
8:27mother of the settlements,
8:28uh where Adam and Eve lived. It doesn't
8:31give the word Mecca in the Quran. That's
8:33curious, if it's such an important city.
8:37Look at the vegetation that the
8:39traditions refer to. Now, by this time
8:41when the traditions are written in the
8:439th and 10th century, Mecca was well
8:45known.
8:46So, in that place, they say this had a
8:49it was had a valley and a parallel
8:51valley. It had stream. It was where the
8:53pillar of salt was, where uh Lot's wife
8:56turned to salt. It had fields, trees,
8:58grass, fruit, clay, loam, olive trees.
9:02Folks, that looks like a a very uh place
9:06with a lot of verdure, a lot of fruit.
9:09It does not look like the desert that
9:11you see Mecca is and has always been.
9:14Mecca has always been much too arid to
9:16support the above.
9:18So, when you look at geographical
9:20references, only nine places are named
9:23in the Quran. But, what's interesting is
9:25three of them come up over and over and
9:28over again. This prophet, who's only
9:30named four times in the Quran,
9:32this prophet has contact almost daily
9:35contact with these people from Ad.
9:38That's the biblical Uz. 23 times Ad is
9:42referred to in the Quran.
9:4424 times the people of Thamud, that's
9:47the Nabataeans as we know them, who cut
9:49dwellings into mountains.
9:51Seven times he has contact with these
9:53people from Midian. Those are the
9:55Midianites. Look at the map on the
9:57right.
9:58Look where Ad is. Look where the Thamud
10:00is and look where Midian. That's 600
10:02miles further north than Mecca. So, how
10:05could this prophet, if he's living in
10:06Mecca, how could he have daily contact
10:09with people that are 600 miles further
10:11north unless of course he had an
10:13airplane or a helicopter which I don't
10:15think existed in the 7th century.
10:17When you look at the Quran and you look
10:19at the Arabic that's in the Quran, note
10:21that the Arabic grammatical borrowings,
10:24almost all of the irabs, the
10:27what you see in the Quran, these are
10:29inflectional short final vowels marked
10:32with diacritics. These are found in the
10:35Quran today but they didn't exist in the
10:37Arabic used in the Hijaz where the green
10:39box is.
10:41This ta' marbuta that we have that gives
10:45the ta' sound at the end of the word,
10:47that is uh found in Arabic in the red
10:51rectangle which is way up north,
10:53Nabataean Aramaic. That's
10:57where the ta' marbuta is written but
10:59it's in the Quran today. So therefore,
11:01whoever wrote the Quran could not have
11:02been living in the Hijaz.
11:04The alif maksura, the
11:06looks like an s at the ya' sound at the
11:08end of the words. That is also from
11:11Arabic that was way up in the southern
11:13Levant in Nabataea.
11:15The definite article, the, introducing a
11:17following consonantal consonant. That is
11:20only found in Nabataean yet it's right
11:23through the Quran suggesting very
11:25clearly that the Quran we have in our
11:27hand today did not come from Mecca
11:29Medina. It came from much further north.
11:32Sabaean Arabic is what they would have
11:34used in the Mecca Medina. Now, the
11:37Sabaean Arabic comes from Yemen
11:40and it existed in 600 BC. It does not
11:42have the ta' marbuta or the alif maksura
11:45or the definite article. Therefore, the
11:47Quranic Arabic which is made up of
11:50Nabataean Aramaic existed 600 miles
11:53further north while the 7th century
11:55Arabic of Mecca in the Hijaz known as
11:58Sabaean would have accommodated the text
12:00of the Quran had it been used
12:02eradicating the get out problems which
12:04we're going to talk about in 3 weeks.
12:07Just bring that keep that under your hat
12:08for now because that don't want to get
12:10into it. When you look at the prophets,
12:12according to the traditions, according
12:14to Islamic narrative, look at all the
12:17prophets that were buried in Mecca. When
12:19you are When you die, you are buried
12:21within 24 hours. Adam and Eve, Seth,
12:24Ishmael, Noah, Hud, Salih, Queen of
12:28Sheba, Daniel, almost 300 other
12:31prophets, all lived or died and were
12:34buried.
12:35Almost all of them, according to
12:36traditions, kneeling in a in a praying
12:38position, so that their bodies would not
12:40deteriorate. That means they should be
12:42there today. Yet, when you look at all
12:45the buildings being built around the
12:47Kaaba today, that's the fourth highest
12:50building in the world, that clock tower
12:51you're looking at. Look at all the 62
12:54large skyscrapers they're now building
12:57there. You build skyscrapers and
12:58building that high, you have to dig deep
13:01into the ground. So, what have they
13:03found with all these diggings? They
13:05should find these bodies. They have not
13:07found one body.
13:10If the Bible were true, this would mean
13:11that almost all of the Bible would have
13:13to be rewritten and all of the stories
13:15be redirected 600 to 1,000 miles further
13:18south. Yet, there is so much evidence
13:20for biblical narrative historically, yet
13:23almost nothing for Islam's.
13:26The first reference we find for the name
13:30Mecca is not till 741 on the Apocalypse
13:33of Pseudo-Methodius Continuatus Byzantia
13:36Arabica. Folks, that's over 100 years
13:39after Muhammad supposedly died. Can you
13:41see a problem, folks? The earliest map
13:44that we have with Mecca on it is not
13:47till the 10th century, not till 900 AD.
13:51Speaking of maps, let's take a look at
13:53Ptolemy's maps from the 2nd century.
13:56These are a series of Ptolemy's maps
13:58that were recreated later on by
14:00Europeans, Leonhard Thurnaysser, taking
14:02what Ptolemy said in his Geography of
14:06Arabia. Remember, he didn't have a map
14:08himself, he just would list different
14:10cities and places, mountains and rivers.
14:13And this is the map that Leonard Holley
14:15put together in 1482. Notice Mecca is
14:18not there. Here's another map put
14:20together by Laurent Fries in 1541.
14:23Notice Mecca's not there as well. Here's
14:27another map put together by Sebastian
14:28Munster in 1571.
14:31Again, Mecca is missing on all these
14:34maps. This is a 7th century redacted map
14:37that was made recently and notice
14:39Mecca's not on that map because Ptolemy
14:42never knew it existed. He never had it
14:44listed anywhere in the 2nd century.
14:47Another one from the 7th century. Notice
14:50Mecca is nowhere to be found.
14:53Why therefore is it not to be found?
14:56Well, let's look at the kiblas. The
14:57kiblas this is the Dan Gibson did all
15:00this material from 1987 up to 2005
15:05and he went to all the over 100 mosques
15:08looking for their kibla wall. That's the
15:11direction of prayer according to chapter
15:132 of the Quran,
15:15all the kibla was redirected down to
15:18Mecca. Although it doesn't give the word
15:20Mecca, it just says the Masjid al-Haram
15:22which means the the forbidden place of
15:25bowing.
15:26And it was that that time about me, that
15:29all
15:32the mosques were there for therefore
15:34facing Mecca. Hold on a minute. Every
15:38mosque that he was able to find from the
15:407th century. Look at Medina, Guangzhou
15:42in China, Sherman in India, Jamia Hamal
15:46in in Syria, in Egypt, in Israel, in
15:49Jordan, in Yemen. All of these mosques
15:51from hundreds of miles, thousands of
15:53miles away are all facing Petra in
15:56Jordan. Not one mosque is facing Mecca
15:59in the 7th century. They only begin to
16:02start facing Mecca in the 8th century
16:05from 715
16:07to 725. That is almost 100 years too
16:11late. Proving that even the archaeology
16:14supports the fact that Mecca did not
16:16exist as a viable place, certainly not
16:20in the 7th century.
16:22When we look at the trade route theory
16:23that Montgomery Watt
16:25put together in the last century to
16:27support why Mecca was important, he
16:29said, "When you look at the trade in the
16:31ancient world, it all came from mostly
16:33China and India. Couldn't go across the
16:35Hindu Kush or the Himalayas. So, it came
16:38across uh from the western coast of
16:41India across the Arabian Sea up through
16:44the Persian Gulf, just follow the red
16:45arrows up to what is today Basra, went
16:48across what is today Iraq uh and over
16:51into Syria into Lebanon into Israel,
16:53what is today Lebanon and Israel, over
16:55into the Mediterranean. Well, that's
16:57where the trade route went."
16:59Until the 5th century. In the 5th
17:02century, then the Sasanian's, who were
17:04the Persians, started battling with the
17:07Byzantines, who were the Christians.
17:10Uh the Sasanian's would be Zoroastrian.
17:12And there battles that were happening
17:14for 200 years from the 5th, 6th, and 7th
17:18century shut down that trade. No longer
17:20could the trade go that route.
17:23So, it had to be redirected.
17:28Montgomery Watt said, "This is what
17:29happened."
17:31It got redirected down this way, across
17:34the Arabian Sea to Aden, and then from
17:37Aden
17:38all the way up to Gaza in the north,
17:401,250 mi away, across
17:43the western plateau, and there is Mecca
17:46halfway, and so therefore Mecca
17:47controlled the trade. That's what made
17:50Mecca great, is what he's saying.
17:52Dr. Patricia Crone,
17:54head of department at Oxford University,
17:56wrote a book called Meccan Trade in the
17:58Rise of Islam. This woman reads and
18:00writes 15 archaic languages, probably
18:04the most formidable scholar on Mecca,
18:07and no one has equaled her. Uh and she
18:10went back to all the trading documents
18:12and decided to ask a question cuz she
18:14noticed there were two problems. First
18:16and foremost, this there this problem.
18:19She said, "Hold on a minute. If you're
18:21coming [clears throat] down across the
18:22Arabian Sea and you take off all your
18:24goods there at Aden and you go to Aden
18:27up to Najran and Sana Sana then Najran
18:31then to Taif there that way. From Taif
18:35with all of those are up on the western
18:36plateau, but then you got to go down off
18:39the western plateau 3,000 ft down to
18:42Mecca. Do you see the detour there?
18:45And then from Mecca, if it existed, you
18:48then have to go up another 3,000 ft to
18:50get to Yathrib, which today is now
18:53called Medina, which is on the western
18:55plateau. And then from Yathrib on up to
18:58Khaybar, Tabuk, and then of course to
19:00Gaza, Petra, and then Gaza in the north.
19:03Do you see the detour? You can see it on
19:05the map I'm showing you here. There's a
19:07definite detour. That would not make
19:09sense, she said, because Mecca had no
19:11water. If Mecca has no water, then
19:14what's the purpose of having trade go
19:16down to it? And it's a desert. So, she
19:20said, "Hold on a minute. Let's see what
19:21the trading documents say." But here's
19:23another problem. If you're on water to
19:26begin with from western India coming
19:28across the Arabian Sea, why don't you
19:31stay on water? Look at the Look at the
19:34Red Sea that's there. The Red Sea is
19:36water. Why would you take it off water,
19:39which is the cheapest way to send any
19:40goods even today? You can take a ton of
19:45goods and only go 50 mi by land, it
19:49would cost the same amount as 1,250 mi
19:52by sea. So, why in the world are they
19:55taking it off at Aden? You have to
19:57protect it. Uh the the camels, you have
20:00to feed the camels, you have to water
20:01the camels, and anybody can attack you
20:03from behind hills or rocks or mountains
20:07or even sand dunes. But on the sea,
20:10you don't have to feed anybody because
20:12it's the wind that pushes you. It's
20:14free. It's It's It's free energy. More
20:18than that, you can see another boat for
20:20miles away. That's why everything is
20:23done by sea and she said went back to
20:25the trading documents and this is what
20:27she found. It did not go over through
20:30Arabia at all. It went this route, came
20:33across the Arabian Sea. Yes, it probably
20:35did stop at Aden to get goods and also
20:38get on water, but then went right up the
20:40Red Sea down to Agulus. Agulus is in
20:43Eritrea today. That is Eritrea today and
20:47then from Agulus and Agulus is found in
20:50all of the trading documents. They
20:52control the trade and from there went up
20:54the Red Sea up to Petra and then from
20:57Petra to Gaza and then from Gaza
20:59right out over the Mediterranean Sea.
21:02So, that was the trade route she found.
21:05She got a death threat for finding this
21:07material in 1987. Had to leave Oxford
21:10and go to Cambridge University where I
21:13met her and then she helped me with my
21:14first debate in 1995
21:17on this material. So, I've known this
21:20for over 25 years. This is nothing new,
21:23folks. But, she made one mistake.
21:26She didn't go far enough.
21:29Something new about the Red Sea. She
21:31didn't really do enough study on the Red
21:33Sea because why did they stop in Agulus?
21:36Possibly, why couldn't they have gone to
21:38the right side of the Red Sea and got up
21:41to what is Jeddah Jeddah today and also
21:44which fed would have fed Mecca. Why
21:46could not that? So, we decided to do
21:49some research on my team and we um
21:51looked at this topographical map from
21:55space looking down onto the Red Sea.
21:59There you can see Yanbu which was the
22:01town that fed Yathrib and according and
22:04today Jeddah which is there today is
22:07where you get all the provisions for
22:08Mecca because Mecca is a desert. It has
22:10no water. It has no verdure.
22:13That's why you needed to have Jeddah.
22:16So, everybody comes back to me and says
22:18that's what was the how Mecca existed.
22:23Here's a problem. Take a look at that
22:25dark channel right in the middle of the
22:27Red Sea. Now, let me put it in I'll put
22:29a red mark over top of it. There's the
22:31red channel there. That's where large
22:33ships go. It's deep. Our large
22:36supertankers go there today, but you
22:38didn't they didn't have supertankers in
22:40the 7th century. They would have used
22:42small boats that had sails. And so they
22:45would go on these channels. See those
22:47channels there? That's the channels that
22:50the small boats took. Notice where
22:51they're sitting. They're on the western
22:53side of the Red Sea. They're on the
22:55African coast.
22:58Unlike the eastern Arabian shore, the
23:00eastern side, which was arid with no
23:03fresh water and thus few people, the
23:06west African shore had plenty of fresh
23:09water and had larger populations.
23:12What's more,
23:14the west coast had easily accessible
23:17ports.
23:18And we know their names. Folks, take a
23:21look at the ports.
23:22When you look at the ports on the west
23:24coast of the Red Sea in Africa, there
23:27are three. Assab, which is in Eritrea
23:30today. Adulis, which is in Eritrea
23:32today. When you also have Suakin, which
23:35is in Sudan. And then you have Berenice,
23:37which is in Egypt, followed by Safaga in
23:41Egypt. Those are the five major ports
23:44along the Red Sea. They're all on the
23:46west. They're all on the African coast.
23:50Their dates, look at the dates. 246 BC,
23:5279 AD, 170 AD, 275 BC, 282
23:58BC. These all predate Islam.
24:02And notice they are all equidistant.
24:05They are all five days boat ride apart,
24:09so that the boat can go in every day and
24:12stay overnight, get its food, get its
24:14provisions to go to the next port.
24:17That's why you have the them equal
24:20distance apart. Now, on the Red Sea
24:23eastern Arabian coast, only Yanbu is
24:26known historically. We only have
24:27reference to Yanbu it as Yathrib port
24:30city.
24:31What about Jeddah as a port for Mecca,
24:34which is you would been used today?
24:36Dr.
24:37Hawting Dr. Gerald Hawting has written
24:39about Jeddah and he says that there is
24:42no history of Jeddah or Mecca until the
24:458th century. It did not exist until the
24:478th century, over 100 years after
24:49Muhammad. Why? For one very simple
24:52reason, neither had water nor a
24:55population large enough to accommodate
24:57early trade. Whoop, let's get rid of
24:59those two then cuz historically those
25:02two did not exist in the 7th century.
25:06Without Mecca,
25:07what then happens to 7th century Islam?
25:10Well, it pretty well eradicates any
25:12notion that there could have been any
25:14activity, any trade, or anyone in those
25:17cities that early.
25:19Let me just give you a show you
25:21a map, a topographical map to really
25:23underline this. There is Aden, here you
25:26have Sana, there you have Najran, there
25:28you have Taif. Now you have Yathrib,
25:31from there you have Tabuk, and then we
25:33have Petra, and then Gaza. That is where
25:35the trade went. It was a local trade
25:37according to Patricia Crone. It only had
25:40mostly leather and
25:44some incense. That's about it. It's all
25:46they traded. You don't make an empire on
25:48leather.
25:50What's interesting is notice where
25:51they're going. They're all along the
25:53western plateau.
25:55So where is Mecca? Well, looking at a
25:57topographical map, look where Mecca is.
25:59It's down off the plateau 3,000 ft. To
26:03get a better example, look at this one
26:05here. Let's look at a topographical map
26:07using line drawings to show you even
26:10more exact. So there you have Aden and
26:12Sana in what is Yemen, then we get into
26:14Najran and Taif and Yathrib. There you
26:18have Tabuk, there you have Petra, and
26:19there you have Gaza. So where's Mecca?
26:22Bingo, 3,000 ft down. Way off the
26:26plateau, not on the
26:28trade route, shutting [snorts] down any
26:30notion that Mecca was important because
26:33of trade and that completely makes
26:36Montgomery Watts trade route theory
26:38completely defunct. Well, what about the
26:40civilizations who are surrounding Mecca?
26:43Would they have heard of this place? So,
26:45let's go and ask that question.
26:48Was Mecca known? If Mecca was the oldest
26:51city in the history of mankind, then
26:53someone somewhere in the area
26:55surrounding it should have heard of it,
26:58right? So, what about those empires
27:01which were in that area? And this is
27:03material that Dr. Patricia Crone has
27:05researched and has written up on her
27:07Mecca and trade and the rise of Islam.
27:10She asked whether she could find any
27:12documentation on Mecca in Saba, not a
27:15thing, nor in Himyar, nor in Eastern
27:17Arabia. She couldn't find anything in
27:19Western Arabia. What about the
27:21patriarchs? Nothing at all written about
27:24Mecca or the Himyarites. The Assyrians
27:26knew nothing about Mecca, neither did
27:29the Babylonians. Central Western
27:31Arabians didn't know about it. The
27:32Persian Empire didn't know about this
27:34place. The Roman Empire didn't know
27:36about this place. Not even Northeastern
27:39Africans knew about this place. Folks,
27:42take a look at that map. What do you
27:43notice?
27:45Everyone who was close to Mecca, who are
27:47surrounding Mecca from the before the
27:497th century, these are all prior to the
27:527th century, never heard of this city.
27:57That right there underlines exactly what
27:59we're talking about.
28:01You're going to have to and Muslims are
28:02going to have to somehow come up with
28:04some type of response to this. Not one
28:06of them had heard of Mecca.
28:09So,
28:10the reason probably why I took these
28:12four pictures down to Speakers' Corner
28:14back in 2019
28:16and I held them up at Speakers' Corner
28:18and I wanted Muslims to look at it and I
28:20want everybody to look at it. I said,
28:21"What do you notice about Mecca and
28:23Medina?" Well, take a look. It's in the
28:25desert, right? It's pretty clear that
28:28the central part of Arabia with Mecca
28:30and Medina is all a desert. Where there
28:33is a desert, there is no water. Where
28:35there is no water, there is no food.
28:36Where there is no food, there is no
28:38people. Where there are no people, there
28:40is no town. Where there are no towns,
28:42there is no city. Where there is no
28:44cities, there is no civilization. Where
28:46there is no civilization, there is no
28:49history. Just like Mars without water,
28:51there is no point in ever going there.
28:55So, before we get into the Hajj, can you
28:57notice how simple this is? How long did
28:59it take me to say that? About 10
29:01seconds. You can do the same thing
29:04anytime they bring about Mecca, just
29:05throw show my map and say, "You've got a
29:07problem here. You need to have water."
29:11Let's go to the Hajj and we'll end up
29:12with this. The states stages of the Hajj
29:14are mostly borrowed. Here's a picture of
29:17the Kaaba with a circumambulation going
29:19seven times counterclockwise. Why do
29:21they do that? Well, some people have
29:24thought maybe it's because they did that
29:26in Petra. That's what Dan Gibson came up
29:28with. They circumambulated
29:29counterclockwise seven times there.
29:32But if you want to find the answer, you
29:33need to go to Jerusalem. It's Jerusalem
29:36where they circumambulated. Josephus
29:38talks about this in his book on uh
29:41on the pilgrimage of the Jews. They
29:44would come to Jerusalem where the Dome
29:47of the Rock is today used to be where
29:49the Holy of Holies was. That's the
29:50Temple Mount in Mount Moriah. It was
29:52always called the Temple Mount.
29:54So, now the Dome of the Rock is sitting
29:56right where the Temple Mount used to be.
29:59They would circumambulate five seven
30:01times going counterclockwise to
30:03commemorate what happened in Jericho.
30:05That's what God had them do in Jericho.
30:08Joshua do in Jericho. That is why it is
30:12they they just following exactly what
30:13the Jews did earlier. Now, and in Mecca
30:17to if you're a Muslim, after you
30:19circumambulate seven times, you then run
30:21back and forth between two mountains
30:24called Marwah and Safa. There's a
30:26picture of Marwah there. There's a
30:28picture of Safa. Notice these are not
30:31mountains. They're only 20 ft high.
30:33Obviously, this was to commemorate Hagar
30:36We go in the desert. She's been thrown
30:38out of the desert. Remember, she lived
30:39in Mecca with Abraham. That's where
30:41Abraham lived. And he threw her out in
30:43the desert. She goes out into the
30:45desert, and she needs water for Ishmael.
30:47She runs back and forth between the two
30:49mountains seven times. Finally, when she
30:52comes back to where Ishmael is, there is
30:53water bubbling out of the ground. That's
30:55known as the Zamzam well.
30:57Ironically, [snorts]
30:58when you look at these today, these are
31:00only rocks. These are not mountains. And
31:03the Zamzam well and are is only about 30
31:06m from the Kaaba. Here, these two rocks
31:09are only about 100 m from the Kaaba. If
31:11she's out in the desert, what's she
31:13doing in the middle of Mecca just a few
31:15hundred feet away from the Kaaba? She
31:17could have gone to any house and knocked
31:18on a door for water. Obviously, these
31:21are not the original Marwah and Safa.
31:24These are facsimiles. These are nothing
31:26more than models of what was original.
31:30If you want to go up
31:32Dan Gibson says that the same can be
31:34found in Petra. But let's go even
31:36earlier. Let's go back to Jerusalem.
31:38There is Marwah and Safa in Jerusalem.
31:41Marwah is the Arabic name for Mount
31:43Moriah. Josephus refers to Marwah as
31:47Mount Moriah in Arabic. There it is on
31:50the Temple Mount. You go down to the
31:51Kidron Valley, come back up to Mount
31:53Scopus. Mount Scopus in Arabic is Safa.
31:57So, the original Marwah, the original
32:00Safa that all the Muslims go to today
32:02was actually in Jerusalem. That's where
32:04the pilgrims would go from Moriah over
32:07to Mount Scopus, now in Arabic called
32:09Marwah and Safa.
32:12So, the original Kaaba looks like it
32:14comes from Jerusalem. The original Safa
32:16and Marwah looks like they come to from
32:18Jerusalem. The hill of Arafat looks like
32:20that is from Petra. The three Jamarat in
32:231991, that also is from Petra. The
32:26Zamzam well looks like that comes from
32:28the pool of Siloam in Jerusalem. And the
32:30black stone, what are we going to do
32:32with the black stone? I don't have time.
32:34That is an absolute anathema for
32:36Muslims. What in the world are they
32:38kissing a black stone that there on the
32:40corner of the Kaaba when this is to take
32:43away their sins? Only God can take away
32:45their sin. This is idolatry at its
32:48worst. And that is right in the holiest
32:51of holies of Islam. That's for another
32:53time for another lecture. Six
32:55conclusions concerning Mecca's
32:57historical problems. No one could find
33:00Mecca placed in the Quran. Crone could
33:02not find any maps with Mecca until 980.
33:05Gibson introduced all the kibbles from
33:08Petra
33:09from up until 706 and 725.
33:14Crone debunked the land-based trade
33:16route theory. We debunked the sea-based
33:18trade theory Mecca. And Gibson debunked
33:21the five stages of the Hajj in Mecca.
33:24Though Mecca has existed since the time
33:26of Adam and Eve according to chapter 7,
33:28there is no evidence anywhere until 741
33:32for the city. There's no reference to
33:34it. And everything we now find in Mecca
33:36we could previously find in Petra in
33:38Jordan 600 miles further north. But now
33:41we find even earlier in Jerusalem 7 to
33:44800 miles further north. Conclusions,
33:48and I want to conclude now. Mecca is
33:50foundational for both Muhammad and the
33:52Quran. So without it, they both fall.
33:56References to Mecca in the Quran and
33:58traditions do not hold up historically
34:00as the center of history,
34:02geographically, like Thamudic Median, or
34:05linguistically, the Quranic Arabic is
34:07Nabataean, not Sabaean, which would have
34:09been in Mecca and Medina.
34:11Neither do the prophets supposedly
34:13buried there, nor the ancient maps of
34:15Ptolemy, nor the kibbles of Gibson's
34:17research support an early Mecca.
34:20Neither the land route
34:22trade route on the western plateau, nor
34:25the Red Sea trade route along the
34:27African coast support an early Mecca.
34:30Topographical maps prove Mecca is off
34:32the western plateau and in a desert with
34:34no water. Thus the reason there is no
34:36civilization surrounding Arabia.
34:39Surround no civilization which has
34:41surrounded Arabia, has heard of Mecca as
34:43people and civilizations need water. The
34:47five stages of the Hajj, the Kaaba, Safa
34:50and Marwa, Arafat, Jamarat, Zamzam, and
34:52the black stone support Jerusalem and
34:55except for the black stone and not
34:57Mecca. Someone somewhere at sometime
35:01should have known about the city. Yet,
35:03no one anywhere nor at anytime has
35:08proving that it never existed at the
35:10time of Muhammad nor during early Islam.
35:16Okay, back to you, Peter.
35:18>> Well, well, thank you very much, Jay.
35:19That's incredibly
35:21comprehensive
35:23and detailed
35:25uh
35:26review of all the archaeology and the
35:28history. And I don't think I've heard
35:30you speak on this for a few years now,
35:32but it's fascinating to me
35:35that from the time I last heard you
35:37speak on this issue
35:39uh how much more material
35:42has has come in
35:44and how this case has has been has been
35:48bolstered. I guess the the obvious first
35:51question and it's getting back to the
35:53key question, I guess, is that if Mecca
35:56isn't backed up in as a real city before
36:01or up to the 7th century
36:03you know, either in history or
36:04archaeology
36:06then how did it rise to such a status?
36:11And who was
36:12behind that?
36:14Because
36:15you know, as you've argued, it's it's
36:18right at the heart of
36:20Islam. And in fact, there's no doubt
36:22that we do find, as you say, from the
36:24begin beginning of the Abbasid period in
36:27the mid 8th century, the 740s and 50s,
36:29we do
36:30find mosques starting to point
36:34to Mecca and pretty consistently to
36:36Mecca as they all do today.
36:38So, how did Mecca rise to such a status
36:42and and who do you think was behind it?
36:44What's the evidence from history?
36:46>> Boy, I wish I had an hour to answer this
36:48question because this is the
36:49million-dollar question that brings it
36:50all together.
36:52Let me see if I can do it in 5 minutes.
36:54In order to understand the importance of
36:56Mecca, you need to look and see what's
36:58happening on the ground historically,
37:00which is all documented.
37:03And what we do know is that the Umayyads
37:05come into power in 661. As we're going
37:08to find next week, that we can follow
37:10just by looking at the coins and the
37:12rock inscriptions. We're going to shut
37:14that shut down this notion that there
37:15were any people called Muslims, or there
37:18was any religion called Islam, or there
37:20was any book called the Quran in the 7th
37:22century, not in the mid-7th century.
37:25Just by looking at the documents that
37:27were there. Now, what we do know from
37:29all the coins and from all the
37:31inscriptions
37:32uh that exist, which do exist, and even
37:34the buildings that have inscriptions on,
37:36they all give us the story the same
37:38story. And that is that Muawiyah, up in
37:42Damascus, not in Mecca Medina, remember?
37:44What's he doing way up in Damascus? He
37:46comes to power in 661. He is the one
37:49that brings all the Arabs together under
37:51one authority. He is a Christian, not a
37:55Muslim.
37:56We're going to see that next week. All
37:58his inscriptions have crosses on them.
38:00All the coins have crosses above his
38:01head, holding crosses. How can he be a
38:03Muslim if he's a if he's holding a
38:05cross?
38:06So, everything that's from the from the
38:08man from the 7th century shows us that
38:11these were Christians. He was a
38:12Christian in Damascus. Uh he was part of
38:15the Sufyani family. The Marwanids take
38:17over in 685 680, excuse me. They throw
38:21out Muawiyah. They are anti-Trinitarian
38:24Christians, but they're still
38:25Christians. They're Arians, as we know,
38:27as Arian from the 4th century. They are
38:30still They're not They don't call
38:32themselves Arians. They still call
38:33themselves Christians, but they do not
38:35believe Jesus is God
38:38or the Trinity.
38:39And so, the great the greatest of all
38:41these is Abd al-Malik. Abd al-Malik
38:43comes to power in 685. He then builds
38:46the Dome of the Rock right there in
38:48Jerusalem and we're going to see from
38:50the inscriptions on those are the
38:54everything attacking Jesus and attacking
38:56the Trinity. They But what he does do is
38:59he does not get along with his
39:01governors. And one governor in
39:02particular is is Ibn Zubayr. Ibn Zubayr
39:06rebels against him in 687
39:10in Petra. He was the governor of Petra.
39:12That's why Petra is so important.
39:15And he destroys the Kaaba that's there.
39:17There was a Kaaba there because the
39:19Kaaba is the same word in Hebrew. It
39:21means
39:22means cube. And people would
39:24circumambulate the cube in on Mount
39:27Moriah in Jerusalem the same way there
39:30in Petra. In destroying the Kaaba he
39:32grabs the black stone. Ooh do do do.
39:34Remember I talked about the black stone?
39:36And he takes it down south. He He stays
39:39in Petra to confront Al-Hajjaj who is
39:42sent by Abd al-Malik to to shut down
39:45this rebellion. And he sends his women
39:47and children down to the south down to
39:49his home place which is what then be
39:51later became Mecca.
39:53Here's the thing. When you take the
39:55black stone away, you take away God's
39:58presence.
39:59So where do you think the pilgrims went
40:01to?
40:02They no longer went to Petra because the
40:04black stone was no longer there. They
40:06followed the black stone boop boop boop
40:07boop boop boop down south.
40:10That's why Mecca had to be chosen. But
40:13who chose it?
40:14It was the later Umayyads who then were
40:16now vying who's going to be in power cuz
40:19you had in Baghdad the Abbasids who are
40:21now coming back into strength and the
40:23Umayyads who are weakening in strength
40:25in the 8th century and they are their
40:28headquarters is in Petra. They're That's
40:31where their
40:32That's where their sanctuary is. The
40:34Abbasids, they need a sanctuary and of
40:36course they get in touch with Ibn Zubayr
40:38and his descendant. And of course where
40:40the black stone is, they then have an
40:42alliance with Ibn Zubayr's uh henchman.
40:46And that's why then they then choose
40:49Mecca. Mecca gets chosen because the
40:50black stone is there. We're going to
40:52show you an inscription next week that
40:55points to exactly when the Masjid
40:57al-Haram was written was created, and
40:59it's the inscription that's in Saudi
41:01Arabia today, and we've only just
41:03discovered it. I put it up uh on YouTube
41:053 weeks ago, no, 2 weeks ago.
41:08Uh rocks never lie. 136,000
41:12people have watched that video. It's
41:13only 11 minutes long. Go up on Fender
41:15Films. That is going viral because of
41:18this inscription cuz it shows that this
41:20in that Masjid al-Haram, which is the
41:22Kaaba today, that's that was built in
41:25697.
41:28That fits perfectly with this scenario.
41:30So, trying to get that uh I'm leaving
41:33out lots of material because I'm trying
41:35to get it done in 5 minutes.
41:36>> Well, but just just to be clear, what
41:38you're suggesting is that what we know
41:41as the early uh Islamic tradition
41:45in the 7th century was actually written
41:49Are you suggesting it was written
41:51retrospectively by the Abbasids because
41:54they moved the center of Islam from
41:57Petra down to Mecca, and therefore had
42:00to create a story around that.
42:03>> That's coming next week.
42:05>> Yeah.
42:06>> That's all coming to you next week, and
42:07I'll show you a graph that follows
42:08exactly what you've just said.
42:10Everything we know about Mecca,
42:11Muhammad, Quran, Islam, Muslim all comes
42:14from the Abbasids. The Islam up to date
42:17is an Abbasid invention that redacted
42:21back to the 7th century, and that's
42:22where they made all their mistakes.
42:24There's too much from the 7th century
42:26that shuts that down, and we'll get into
42:28that next week.
42:30>> Now, I guess a lot of people watching
42:32this webinar will be saying, "Look, I've
42:34never heard any of this stuff before."
42:37Uh and if you're saying this is what
42:39scholarship is teaching
42:42then uh to what extent has it filtered
42:44down? I think of my own kids, Jay, when
42:46they went to a secondary school in a
42:50sunny leafy, uh southeast English city
42:55uh of about a decade or two ago, and I
42:59remember them coming home with their
43:02workbooks and their maps, and all of
43:04these showed Montgomery Watts' trade
43:07trade routes.
43:09And having heard you speak way back
43:12then, I asked them, "Why do you think
43:15that when the Red Sea was there, and
43:17they could have just gone up that with
43:20their boats,
43:21uh with all the ports on the west uh
43:23being good deep water ports and water
43:25available, why did they Why did they go
43:28across country?" And so, here in
43:31England, my kids were being taught
43:34Montgomery Watts' version of events,
43:36which synchronizes, of course, resonates
43:39with the early Islamic traditions. So, I
43:41guess my question is,
43:43to what extent is this
43:46scholarship, which in many ways is quite
43:48devastating to uh a lot of the early
43:51traditions, to what extent is it
43:54filtering down and being taught in
43:57universities and schools and talked
43:59about on the media and so on, or is it
44:02really still just
44:04really in in the province of a few
44:07uh university scholars?
44:09So, if you could answer my question.
44:11>> one.
44:12You know the answer why,
44:14Peter, for the very reason that you had
44:17to change the title of my talk today.
44:19That's the problem.
44:22You cannot say this openly except on
44:24YouTube. Even those scholars who are
44:27writing this up, who are actually part
44:29of this whole this almost every almost
44:32everything I'm introducing, even today,
44:34you didn't know about the West Coast or
44:36those five ports until today.
44:39Right?
44:40There's no one else that's done that
44:41research. We're doing that research, and
44:43that's why we're But it's all there. The
44:45research is there. The writers are
44:47writing it. The scholars are writing it,
44:49but they have seen what happened to
44:50other scholars like Patricia Crone. Look
44:52at the death threat she got. Look at
44:53John Wansbrough. Look at he got a death
44:55threat. Look at Salman Rushdie for the
44:57book he wrote. Uh they're still trying
44:59to kill him. You don't live very long if
45:02you start introducing this kind of
45:03material in academia. So, therefore, the
45:06academics are pushing it. They are doing
45:08it, but they're doing it usually with
45:10pseudonyms, and that's why we need to
45:12take it and get it out into the uh out
45:14into the the the to into the populace
45:18world. Uh the I'm I'm that there's no
45:20other reason why we're getting such huge
45:22hits. I can't understand why 136,000
45:26people have watched just one inscription
45:28that gives the date for the Masjidal
45:30Haram in just 2 weeks. That
45:32inscription's been there for decades. I
45:35knew about this back in 2010. I just
45:37didn't know the word. I didn't know how
45:39I didn't bother to look at it more
45:40carefully, the Arabic.
45:42Now, can you see this is going to I'm
45:45this is just going to make a life of its
45:46own. Now, let me just say this. Be
45:48careful how you use this material.
45:52Um this is not hate speech. Nothing I've
45:56said today is hate speech. This is not
45:58Islamophobia.
46:00This is much more neutral, and that's
46:02why historical critical
46:05uh questions like we're asking here,
46:07anybody can use, anybody, including
46:11Muslims and atheists and humanists. They
46:14love this material, but this really
46:16should be our material, Peter, because
46:18as Christians,
46:20we are the ones who've already had these
46:22very same questions thrown against the
46:23Bible, against Jesus Christ, against the
46:26historicity of the crucifixion and the
46:28resurrection. These have been thrown
46:29against us for 200 years, and we have
46:32answered every one of them using
46:34redaction criticism, source criticism,
46:37form criticism, historical criticism,
46:39textual criticisms. We didn't invent
46:42them, but it was using it on the Bible
46:44and Jesus that they were matured. So,
46:46therefore, we not only have the right,
46:48we understand it better than anybody
46:50else, but we have all the right to ask
46:53these questions, none of which are
46:55Islamophobic, should not cause anybody
46:57anger. And I'm not getting death threats
47:00on YouTube finally because I'm not
47:03attacking Muhammad. I didn't say
47:04anything against Muhammad today. I'm not
47:06attacking Islam. I didn't say anything
47:07against Islam today. I'm not attacking
47:10his
47:11uh Muslims at all. I'm not saying
47:12anything against Muslims or the Quran,
47:15against the violence or the the sexual
47:17proclivity of Muhammad. I'm not saying
47:19any of that. I don't need to anymore.
47:21Throw that away
47:22and just ask a much deeper question.
47:25Did Mecca exist in the 7th century?
47:29Did Muhammad exist in the 7th century?
47:31And did the Quran exist? That's all I'm
47:33asking. That is so neutral and really
47:36takes the onus off my shoulders, which
47:38means anybody can use it.
47:41>> Can I just pick up that question about
47:43the origins of Christianity because you
47:46know,
47:47where I'm
47:48uh well, I'm in Europe today. You you
47:51certainly spend a lot of your life here.
47:53You'll know that in Europe, we are
47:55living in largely a post-Christian
47:57society and some of that that is due to
48:01the influence of the theory of
48:03evolution, some of it's due to the the
48:05enlightenment. But also another big
48:08contributor to the loss of Christian
48:10faith in this continent was the
48:14criticism of the New Testament documents
48:16in the in the 19th century. And a lot of
48:19people came to the conclusion that the
48:21what that Christianity didn't really
48:24have a a a a a historical and an
48:27archaeological base.
48:30And now as as you said scholarship has
48:33turned that around over the last 150
48:36years.
48:37Do you think it's possible that this
48:40criticism of of Islam might also be
48:44turned around in the same way by
48:46subsequent scholarship or is it looking
48:48a different kind of problem uh than the
48:51one Christianity has?
48:53>> No, I would agree with you absolutely,
48:55Peter. Back in the 1800s when this was
48:58first coming out in Germany and the
49:00University of Tubingen, Wellhausen and
49:02and others scholars who are asking
49:05brilliant questions. You know, did can
49:08we look at the first five books of Moses
49:09and say that they came from one author?
49:11The JEDP documentary documentary
49:14hypothesis. Can we know who if Abraham
49:17ever existed? These along with Darwinism
49:21completely eradicated the the the
49:24authenticity for Christianity that
49:27melted down through the universities
49:29into the seminaries from the seminaries
49:30down to the pews so that by 1905 it
49:34decimated the church in Europe and the
49:36church has never recovered in Europe as
49:38you well know.
49:40Since 1905 we've found answers to every
49:42one of these questions. That's why we're
49:44so good at this and that's why in some
49:46ways this really should be Christians
49:48who are using it because we've now been
49:50able to find well look at the New
49:52Testament documentation, the enormous
49:54amount of manuscript evidence for the
49:56New Testament. 10,000 Latin Vulgate,
49:59we've now found 8,600
50:01Greek manuscripts. We found another
50:039,000 another 9,000 from other
50:06manuscripts from other languages making
50:09up 24,000 manuscripts of just the New
50:11Testament alone.
50:13But many of them
50:15are from the fourth century on but even
50:18the manuscript evidence just the
50:20historic the historicity of who Jesus
50:23was, what he said, where he did. Look at
50:24the geographical locations, 105
50:27geographical locations in just the book
50:32the four Gospels and the book of Acts.
50:34Proving that we've got the right man at
50:37the right place doing the right thing at
50:38the right time written by people that
50:40actually knew him or those that got it
50:43from those who knew him. As we're going
50:44to see next week Islam has nothing along
50:47this level. Now so that's why in some
50:50way we have come back and we are now
50:52able to say
50:53categorically we know who Jesus was, we
50:55know what he did, we know what he said,
50:58we know where he died, we know where he
50:59rose again. These are the things that
51:02and and that's all you need to say
51:04because once you say those five things,
51:06pretty much you you've got the gospel
51:09well documented and solidified
51:12historically. And that's all we're
51:13asking. If we can solidify our Lord
51:16Jesus Christ and what he did and said,
51:18why cannot Islam do the same? Or don't
51:20just stop at Islam. The Mormons have to
51:22do this, the Hindus have to do this with
51:24the Bhagavad Gita, the Vedas, the
51:26Upanishads. Anybody any religious
51:30uh
51:30any religion that makes historical
51:33claims has to pass the historical test.
51:36We're asking this of Islam, but
51:37everything that I'm asking has already
51:39been done to the Bible. And that's why
51:41it makes it so easy for me.
51:43>> Now, this
51:45raises another question which Alex is
51:47asking from a North African Islamic
51:50context and and he's saying, you know,
51:52thanks for your presentation, Jay. His
51:55question is, have you discussed this
51:57with Muslim scholars and what what's
51:59their take on it? And what's the best
52:03way to discuss this
52:05with Muslim We appreciate that in some
52:07contexts it might be very difficult to
52:09discuss this
52:10with Muslims, but but
52:13tell us a bit about Muslim scholars and
52:15how they're reacting to this material.
52:19>> Yeah. Now, this this material no Muslim
52:21will debate me on. I mean, I love to do
52:22debates as you well know, Peter. I've
52:24done over 100 debates with Muslim
52:26scholars mostly on the Quran because the
52:30Quran they will debate. And um
52:32I'm [clears throat] going to be I can't
52:33say where I'm going to be I'll be in a
52:34few months I'll be in parts of Africa uh
52:38in Nigeria, well, I can say that, and
52:39also in South Africa where I'll be doing
52:41debates for the first time on Mecca and
52:43on Muhammad because so far here in the
52:46West they will not debate it. You can
52:47see why. How would you debate what I've
52:48just presented today?
52:50How would a Muslim debate that? Because
52:52in order to debate it, they're going to
52:53have to come up with 7th century
52:55evidence. Everything I'm using is from
52:57the 7th century or earlier.
52:59And parts of a little bit of the 8th
53:01century. I don't care about the 9th and
53:0310th century. I pretty much I dismissed
53:06the 9th and 10th century, but every
53:08Muslim is going to have to come back.
53:09That's the problem. You cannot and
53:11that's why this is really a western
53:14discussion. This is not a discussion you
53:16should have in North Africa. This is not
53:18a discussion you have should have in any
53:20Muslim
53:21majority country. Just stay away from
53:23this. Let us do that. This is our job.
53:26And that's what I'm talking about is a
53:27Europeans, Americans, those of us who
53:30have the freedom in the west to still
53:32have these kind of debates.
53:34Now, as far as historic what has
53:37happened, I mean let me just give you an
53:38example of one debate I had in 2014
53:41which you remember Peter with Dr. Shabir
53:44Ally on the six major manuscripts which
53:46I'm going to introduce in three weeks.
53:49That one debate, I know of
53:52I know of at least 200 people that have
53:55come to the Lord because of that one
53:56debate.
53:58I just met a man just last just on
54:00Monday. What is today? Thursday? Three
54:02days ago. He
54:04He's all over the internet. His name is
54:06Adam Seeker.
54:07I won't say what country he's from, but
54:09he grew up as a Salafi Muslim, is a
54:11Hafiz. He memorized the entire Quran by
54:13heart. He watched that debate in 2018.
54:16Left Islam after that debate.
54:19Became a Christian, is now one of our
54:21best debaters. He is amazing. He reads
54:25and writes
54:26Punjabi, Urdu, Hindi, English, and
54:29Arabic. All five languages. Has the
54:32entire Quran memorized in his head and
54:34he's now using this material. He has
54:36baptized
54:38100 Muslims in just the last year all
54:42using that debate. Just one debate. So,
54:44that's how you can use it. You can use
54:46it in debate form. Or you can just send
54:49people to the debate. Now, the Quran is
54:51a much easier than any other because it
54:53is in our hand today. You'll see that
54:55when I talk and unpack it. It is much
54:57easier to use than say Mecca or Muhammad
54:59because
55:00Mecca, we can't go back to the 7th
55:02century. But we can with the Quran.
55:05That's why it's beautiful and that's why
55:06it's amazing, and that's why it's so
55:08easy to use, especially for those of you
55:11who are doctors or nurses. You're going
55:13into Muslim countries. You have You're
55:15going with an awful lot of clout,
55:18and you have an enormous amount of
55:19authority that the rest of us do not
55:21have. So, you can bring these up into
55:23conversations or just have them go and
55:26look at the debates that we're doing for
55:28them on YouTube.
55:31>> Now, every Christian listening to this
55:33and we're almost out of time now, but I
55:35just want to ask you this.
55:36Every Christian listening to this will
55:38be reflecting on their own journey, and
55:42many of us weren't brought up in
55:44Christian homes. We We came from another
55:47faith background or from an atheist
55:49background or
55:51whatever.
55:52And
55:53at some point in our journey towards
55:55Christ, if we're coming from another
55:57faith background, we have we start often
56:01by beginning to doubt what we've always
56:04believed, what our strong convictions
56:06were.
56:07How How important do you think
56:11this material is
56:14in helping Muslims to reflect on what
56:17they've already passionately believed
56:20and perhaps to to start to have doubts
56:24about it, which might make them more
56:26open to
56:27a Christian perspective?
56:32>> I guess the best way to answer that,
56:34Peter, is just by taking the same things
56:37I've just introduced today and what I'm
56:39going to do is next week and then apply
56:40it to Christianity.
56:41What if I came up and I showed you
56:43categorically that I can have evidence
56:45after evidence from the 1st century that
56:48there was nobody named Jesus, that there
56:51was no city called Jerusalem, and that
56:53there was no reference to any scripture
56:56at all until the 3rd century?
56:59That's what I'm saying. We have nothing.
57:01I have not gotten to that yet. That's
57:02going to unpack next week. What would
57:05you do as a Christian if Jesus,
57:08Jerusalem, and the Bible did not exist
57:11till the 3rd century.
57:12How would you defend it? And what would
57:14that do to your faith?
57:18>> I would be absolutely devastated,
57:20wouldn't you?
57:21>> Bingo.
57:22And even more so for Muslims because
57:24though we know that
57:26though we know that Jesus talks to us
57:29personally, so those of us who have a
57:31relationship with Jesus already know him
57:33personally, Islam doesn't have that.
57:36They don't have any personal
57:37relationship with Allah or Muhammad.
57:39Therefore, they have to have the book,
57:41the man, and the place. Those are the
57:43only three that make that that give
57:45authority to everything they believe.
57:47Unlike us who have a personal
57:49relationship,
57:50they don't. So, can you see why this is
57:52so much more devastating to Islam and
57:54why the Muslims get so angry and why you
57:57are not permitted to attack or criticize
58:00Muhammad or the Quran. Why do you think
58:02those two laws are in Pakistan and all
58:04over the Muslim world? You cannot
58:06criticize those two things. Obviously,
58:08because those two things are absolutely
58:10sacrosanct for Muslims cuz they know
58:12that with if those two get criticized,
58:15Islam falls.
58:16>> Well, thank you very much, Jay. We have
58:18sadly run out of time. Let me just
58:20remind you, too, that this is the second
58:23of a series of four talks that Jay is
58:25giving. So, the first one was on the
58:27hermeneutical key
58:29a few weeks ago. If you missed that,
58:31it's on our website. And let me
58:34encourage you to go and listen to that
58:35talk because it gets right to the heart
58:37of that very issue that Jay has just
58:39mentioned that the the the relationship
58:43being at the very heart of Christianity
58:46as opposed to
58:47uh Islam and the idea of God walking
58:50among us in in the book of uh Genesis in
58:53the Garden of Eden. So, go back and
58:55listen to that the hermeneutical key.
58:57And then we've got two more talks coming
58:59up on on in the same series of
59:02understanding Islam. The next one is on
59:05the Prophet Muhammad, which will be next
59:07week, the 15th of June, same time, same
59:10place.
59:11And then uh the one after that is 2
59:14weeks later when we look at the Quran
59:17and the manuscript evidence for it. So,
59:20it remains to me again, Jay, to say
59:22thanks very much and thank you to all of
59:24you for coming along and we look forward
59:26to seeing you again soon on ISM D
59:29webinars. May the Lord bless you.

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