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Jason Riley: The Liberal State Against Blacks — Transcript

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0:00This is the program on constitutional
0:02government and our speaker today is
0:04Jason Riley. Jason Riley is a graduate
0:08of of uh Sunni Buffalo, comes from
0:12Buffalo and he's u never wasted a moment
0:16of his life in graduate school.
0:20He's
0:22and he's here with us today. He's uh got
0:24a column in the Wall Street Journal and
0:27he's a senior fellow at the Manhattan
0:29Institute in New York. He's written a
0:32book uh came out in 2008, The Case for
0:35Open Borders and he's most recently
0:38written a book uh which is really the
0:41subject of our uh meeting today called
0:43Please Stop Helping Us and How Liberals
0:47Make It Harder for Blacks to Succeed.
0:50And so his talk today is on that theme
0:54uh the welfare state against blacks. So
0:56Jason Riley, thank you.
1:06Uh thank you for that uh introduction,
1:10professor. Can everyone hear me? Is this
1:11on? Everyone can hear me? Okay. Um so my
1:17first book was about immigration.
1:20And uh this one is about race. So
1:23clearly I picked the the easy subjects,
1:25the uh the ones that bring us together
1:28as a country and unite us. Yeah. I don't
1:31know. Abortion, gay marriage, something
1:34like that. Um but uh
1:39but I do today I want I want to talk
1:41about something that I think does unite
1:44us in some extent, something that a lot
1:46of people do agree on. and that is that
1:49despite a half century of concerted
1:51efforts to help the
1:54black underclass
1:56um
1:59things aren't going very well for that
2:01for that group. Um the black underclass,
2:04black poor are in pretty bad shape today
2:07despite a half century of efforts,
2:10concerted efforts on their behalf in
2:13this country. Um now the agreement
2:16pretty much ends there.
2:18But it is a place to start. So let's
2:20start with with the good news. Um last
2:24month we celebrated Martin Luther King's
2:27birthday. And last year we marked the
2:2950th anniversary of what may be King's
2:34uh greatest achievement, the Voting
2:36Rights Act of 1965.
2:39Um, the 1964 Civil Rights Act outlawed
2:44discrimination based on race and gender
2:47and religion and gave blacks access to
2:49jobs and public spaces that had
2:51previously been denied them. But access
2:54to the voting booth, access to the
2:56ballot was still, of course, a challenge
2:58for blacks, particularly in the south.
3:01Uh, President Lincoln said we're a
3:03government of the people, by the people,
3:05and for the people. But that's only true
3:08if all the people can register and vote.
3:12Uh the ability to vote is of course what
3:14protects all the other freedoms we enjoy
3:16in this country and how we are able to
3:19hold our elected officials responsible.
3:22So after the Civil Rights Act passed, uh
3:25Dr. King pressed for a voting rights act
3:27too and 50 years ago last summer,
3:30President Johnson signed it into law and
3:33it's been a remarkable success. Just to
3:36give you an idea of how successful the
3:38Voting Rights Act has been, in 1964,
3:41the year before it passed, just 7% of
3:45blacks in the state of Mississippi were
3:48registered to vote. 7%. It was the
3:51lowest percentage of anywhere in the
3:53South. By 1966,
3:56just one year after
3:58the Voting Rights Act passed, the black
4:00voter registration rate in Mississippi
4:03had climbed to 60%.
4:07The highest in the South.
4:09And Mississippi wasn't an outlier. In
4:12Georgia, it went from 19% to 51% over
4:16the same period. In fact, every southern
4:18state
4:20had striking gains. Today, the black
4:24voter registration rate in the south is
4:25higher than it is in other parts of the
4:28country. And in 2012, the last
4:31presidential election, the percentage of
4:33blacks who voted was higher than the
4:36percentage of whites who voted for the
4:38first time in US history. That's how
4:41significant
4:43the Voting Rights Act has been. Along
4:45with the Civil Rights Act, it
4:47represented the culmination of a
4:49modern-day civil rights movement. And
4:51what I wanted to talk about for a few
4:52minutes this afternoon is what has
4:55happened in the wake of these civil
4:58rights gains.
5:02What has risen
5:04from the ruins of Jim Crow in terms of
5:07policies aimed at blacks in general and
5:09the black underclass in particular?
5:12What's working? What's not working? And
5:14how much of what's not working can be
5:16blamed on racism? I think it's a good
5:19time to ask those questions. Uh not only
5:23because we just marked half century
5:26after the Voting Rights Act, but also
5:27because we just marked the 50th
5:29anniversary of Lyndon Johnson's Great
5:32Society programs,
5:34programs that were supposed to help
5:36eliminate poverty and reduce racial
5:39inequality.
5:41Uh just before signing that Voting
5:42Rights Act, Johnson gave a famous speech
5:45at Howard University, the historically
5:48black college in DC, where he talked
5:50about what the government should do next
5:52on behalf of blacks. He said the freedom
5:55to vote, to hold a job, to go to school,
5:58enter a public place was not enough.
6:01He said the next and more profound stage
6:07of the battle for civil rights was to
6:09ensure equal results,
6:14equal outcomes. He moved the goalpost
6:18from equal opportunity
6:20to equal results.
6:23But what if Johnson was mistaken?
6:26What if there are limits to what
6:28government can do beyond removing
6:30barriers to freedom? What if the best
6:33that we can hope for from our elected
6:35officials and policy makers are policies
6:38that promote a level playing field?
6:41And what if policymakers
6:44risk doing even more damage, creating
6:47more problems and barriers to progress
6:49when the focus is on equal outcomes?
6:54I think there are limits even when the
6:56policies are well-intentioned and I
6:58think the past half century is evidence
7:01for that. For more than 50 years, the
7:04political left in particular has pushed
7:06for more government assistance for
7:08blacks through racial preferences,
7:10forced integration, expanded welfare
7:13entitlements, and so forth. Black
7:16leaders have urged racial solidarity
7:20and prioritized the pursuit of political
7:22power.
7:25Between 1970 and 2010, the number of
7:28black elected officials grew from fewer
7:30than 1500 to more than 10,000,
7:35including of course a black president.
7:42But how has this helped the black
7:43underclass? In 2013,
7:47Mississippi had more black elected
7:49officials than any other state in the
7:51country. Yet, it continues to have one
7:53of the highest poverty rates in the
7:56country.
7:58Over the past half century, the US has
8:01spent some $20 trillion after inflation
8:06on anti-poverty programs alone. But what
8:08do we have to show for it?
8:11The official poverty rate in 2012 was
8:14higher than it had been in the mid60s.
8:19And the black white poverty gap is
8:20actually widened over the past decade.
8:25The racial disparity incarceration rates
8:27is also larger today than it was in
8:291960. Black unemployment on average has
8:33been double that of white unemployment
8:36for more than five decades.
8:40Yes, gains have been made. On balance,
8:44blacks are certainly better off today
8:47than they were a half century ago.
8:50My being here, a product of the black
8:52inner city, is proof of that in my
8:55opinion. But the track record regarding
8:58the black poor is appalling.
9:02It's clear that government programs
9:04aren't the solution to many of these
9:06problems that the black underclass
9:09faces. It's clear that the Great Society
9:12programs may be well-intentioned but are
9:14not getting the job done. And the
9:16question, of course, is why?
9:19I think the short answer is that the
9:20focus has been
9:23on redistributing wealth to blacks
9:26instead of on producing wealth among
9:28blacks. The lesson of the past 50 years
9:32ought to be that simply transferring
9:34cash and benefits services to the poor
9:37does not necessarily make people more
9:40prosperous.
9:42I think blacks ultimately have to help
9:43themselves, have to develop the same
9:46attitudes and habits and behaviors that
9:48other groups in America had to develop
9:51in order to rise. And to the extent that
9:53a government policy, however
9:55well-intentioned,
9:56interferes with this necessary
9:58self-development, I think it's doing
10:01more harm than good. Open-ended welfare
10:04benefits do not help people develop a
10:06work ethic, which is ultimately what
10:08they must develop in order to rise out
10:11of poverty.
10:14Increasing the minimum wage to $15 an
10:17hour will increase the cost of hiring
10:21younger, less skilled, less experienced
10:24workers, many of whom happen to be
10:26black. So, fewer blacks will wind up
10:28getting that first job and the
10:31experience that comes with it. Soft on
10:34crime laws make ghettos more dangerous
10:37for the mostly law-abiding residents who
10:41live there and they make life easier for
10:43the criminals who of course pray
10:45primarily on other blacks and black poor
10:49in particular and so on. Yet, all of
10:51these policies continue to be pushed in
10:54the name of helping blacks and the
10:56promoters of the policies don't seem
10:58very interested in re-evaluating some of
11:00the basic assumptions
11:03at work here.
11:06But I think it's also important to
11:07notice or to note the progress that was
11:10occurring in black America
11:13prior to the implementation of many of
11:16these programs designed to help them.
11:18programs that often receive all the
11:20credit for any progress that we have
11:22seen.
11:24For example,
11:26between 1940 and 1960,
11:29black poverty, the black poverty rate in
11:32America fell by 40 percentage points.
11:36Think about that.
11:39This is before the Civil Rights Act was
11:41passed, before the Voting Rights Act was
11:44passed. This was during Jim Crow. This
11:46was during a period of open, rampant,
11:49and legal racial discrimination in this
11:52country. A 40 percentage point drop in
11:56black poverty.
11:58Now, poverty continued to fall after
12:01Great Society programs were implemented
12:03in the 1960s, but at a much slower rate.
12:08At best, the Great Society programs were
12:12continuing an existing trend.
12:17Yet these programs are given all the
12:19credit for any reductions in black
12:21poverty that we've seen.
12:24The reality is that no Great Society
12:26program has ever come close to matching
12:29what blacks were doing on their own
12:31before that policy had been put in
12:33place.
12:36before the government decided to
12:38intervene and help.
12:43The notion that black self-help
12:46is more effective than government help
12:49is not based on some right-wing
12:52extremist Koch brothers funded ideology.
12:57It's based on experience.
12:59It's based on the historical record.
13:02History shows repeatedly
13:05that there simply is no substitute for a
13:07group's self-development.
13:09Government programs cannot save us
13:13and an overdependence on them from our
13:16experience can do great great harm.
13:19Affirmative action. Racial preferences
13:22are another example of a program that
13:23gets much more credit than it deserves.
13:27in this case, credit for increasing the
13:28size of the black middle class in
13:31America.
13:33But again, what does the record show?
13:36Well, it shows that between 1930 and
13:381970,
13:40the percentage of black white collar
13:42workers in America quadrupled.
13:46Between 1950 and 1960 in New York City
13:50alone, the number of black accountants
13:52increased by 220%.
13:55The number of engineers grew by 134%.
13:58The number of teachers grew by 125%.
14:01Physicians and lawyers grew by more than
14:0350%. Nurses increased by 90% and on and
14:07on.
14:09That's before affirmative action
14:11policies were implemented
14:14in the 1970s. That's during a period
14:17when you could put a sign in your window
14:19that said, "We don't hire blacks."
14:21Yet in the face of these obstacles,
14:24blacks were entering the skilled
14:26professions at unprecedented rates.
14:30Yes, blacks continued to enter the white
14:34collar professions in the wake of
14:37affirmative action programs, but again,
14:40this simply continued an existing trend.
14:43There was a substantial black middle
14:45class already in existence in this
14:47country by the end of the 1960s.
14:51It has continued to grow, but at a much
14:54slower rate than it was growing before.
14:57And as with black poverty reduction, no
15:00affirmative action program has ever come
15:02close to matching what blacks were doing
15:04on their own prior to the implementation
15:07of that affirmative action program.
15:09Moreover, racial preferences have not
15:11helped the poor as proponents told us
15:15they would.
15:17Instead, they have worked mostly to help
15:20already welloff blacks become better
15:22off.
15:23There have been case studies places like
15:26Atlanta, for example, in the 1970s and
15:2980s where under black mayors like Mayor
15:32Jackson and Andrew Young, the city
15:34implemented racial preference policies
15:36for hiring black city workers and
15:39contractors.
15:40What happened? Well, the number of
15:43successful black businesses increased
15:44rapidly, but average income blacks were
15:47left behind and the black poor lost
15:49ground.
15:51And that's been the story of the black
15:53poor, not only in Atlanta, but
15:54nationwide. In the era of affirmative
15:57action, the black underclass has lost
16:00ground both in absolute terms and
16:03relative to the white underclass in the
16:05country.
16:07In the 1970s and 80s and even into the
16:1090s, the first full three full decades
16:13of affirmative action policies, the
16:16poorest 20% of blacks saw their incomes
16:19decline at more than double the rate of
16:22comparable whites.
16:25Again, the empirical data show that in
16:28an era of racial preferences and quotas
16:31and set aides put in place to help the
16:34black poor, that subset has regressed.
16:40But I would argue also argue that there
16:42is a large cultural component to what is
16:45going on here
16:48to the racial disparities that we
16:50continue to see today. whether we're
16:52talking about employment or education,
16:55incarceration, income, or other
16:57measures.
16:58Yet, it's become almost taboo to talk
17:02about black cultural problems.
17:06Antisocial behavior, attitudes towards
17:09work and school and parenting,
17:13black kids teasing one another for
17:15acting white.
17:18I've often told the story, and I tell it
17:20in the book, about a trip back home to
17:23Buffalo, New York, where I was born and
17:25raised.
17:27I was visiting my older sister shortly
17:30after I'd begun working at the Wall
17:32Street Journal, and I was talking to her
17:35daughter, my niece, before dinner one
17:38evening, just chatting about
17:41how things were in school. She was maybe
17:43in the second grade at the time. She
17:46stops me in the middle of a sentence. He
17:48says, "Uncle Jason, why you talk white?"
17:52And she turned to her little friend
17:54sitting next to her and said, "Don't my
17:56uncle sound white? Why Why are you
17:59trying to sound so smart?"
18:03Now,
18:06they were just teasing, of course, and
18:10enjoyed a little chuckle at my expense.
18:13But
18:15what they said really stayed with me.
18:21I couldn't help thinking here were two
18:23young black girls seven or eight years
18:26old
18:27already linking
18:29speech patterns to race and
18:31intelligence.
18:34They already had a rather sophisticated
18:37awareness that as blacks, whites
18:40sounding speech was not only to be
18:42avoided in their own speech, but mocked
18:44in the speech of others.
18:48Now, I shouldn't have been too surprised
18:50by this, and I wasn't.
18:53My siblings, along with countless other
18:55black friends and relatives, teased me
18:57the same way growing up.
18:59and other black professionals
19:02from the president and first lady on
19:04down have told similar stories. It's
19:06simply not that uncommon.
19:13What I had forgotten is just how early
19:15these attitudes
19:18start,
19:19how soon this antisocial
19:22counterproductive behavior
19:24begins. In New York City, where I'm
19:27based, largest school system in the
19:30country, and 80% of the black kids in
19:34New York City public schools are
19:36performing below grade level. 80%.
19:41And a big part of the problem is a black
19:42subculture that rejects attitudes and
19:45behaviors that are conducive to academic
19:48success.
19:50Black kids read half as many books and
19:53watch twice as much television as their
19:56white counterparts, for example. In
19:58other words, a big part of the problem
19:59is a culture that produces little black
20:03girls and boys who are already worried
20:06about acting and sounding white by the
20:09time they are in the second grade.
20:12Another
20:14big part of the problem is a reluctance
20:15to speak honestly
20:18about these issues,
20:20these cultural shortcomings. Many whites
20:23fear being called racists and many black
20:26leaders have a vested interest in
20:28blaming black problems primarily on
20:31white racism. So that is the narrative
20:33they push. Regardless of the reality,
20:36racism has become an allpurpose
20:39explanation for bad black outcomes in
20:41America.
20:43be they social or economic.
20:45If you disagree and are white, you're a
20:47bigot. If you disagree and are black,
20:49you're a sellout.
20:51Too often, this is the level of
20:53discourse, schoolyard name calling. Even
20:57President Obama has been subjected to
20:59this treatment when he broaches the
21:01topic of black cultural shortcomings,
21:04which he's done on a few occasions.
21:09On several occasions, he's spoken to
21:10black audiences about absent fathers.
21:13For example, when he spoke at Morehouse
21:16in Atlanta a couple years ago, he said,
21:19"I was raised by a heroic single mother
21:21and wonderful grandparents who made
21:23incredible sacrifices for me, but I
21:26still wish I had a father who was not
21:29only present, but involved."
21:32And so, my whole life, I've tried to be
21:34for Michelle and my girls what my father
21:36wasn't for my mother and me.
21:39I've tried to be a better father, a
21:41better husband, a better man.
21:44Obama told those black men in the
21:46audience to be a good role model for
21:49other less fortunate black men. He said,
21:53quote, "The brothers who have been left
21:55behind, who haven't had the same
21:58opportunities we have, they need to hear
22:00from us. We need to be in the barber
22:03shops with them, at church with them,
22:05helping to pull them up, exposing them
22:07to new opportunities.
22:09We have to teach them what it means to
22:11be a man."
22:15Now, that might sound like common sense
22:17to you and me.
22:20In fact,
22:22there are probably some people in this
22:23room that wish this is all Obama would
22:25ever talk about.
22:27Could
22:29you repeat that sentence, please? It was
22:32a joke that didn't land very well.
22:41But when Obama says these things out
22:44loud in public, he gets slammed
22:48by liberals in general and the black
22:50left in particular
22:52because he's seen as criticizing black
22:54culture,
22:56condescending to blacks, being an
22:58elitist.
23:00Most significantly, he's accused of
23:02letting whites off the hook, which is a
23:04big no no on the black left. But the
23:07facts are on Obama's side.
23:10For decades, studies have shown that the
23:13likelihood of teen pregnancy and drug
23:15abuse, dropping out of school, many
23:18other bad social outcomes increased
23:20dramatically when fathers were not
23:22around.
23:24One of the most comprehensive studies
23:26ever done about this concluded that
23:28black boys without a father were almost
23:3170% more likely to be incarcerated
23:35than those with a father.
23:39The social scientist James Q Wilson put
23:41it this way.
23:44If crime is to a significant degree
23:46caused by weak character, if weak
23:47character is more likely among children
23:50of unmarried mothers, if there are no
23:51fathers who will help raise their
23:53children, acquire jobs, protect their
23:56neighborhoods, if boys become young men
23:59with no preparation for work, if school
24:02achievement is regarded as a sign of
24:04having sold out. If all these things are
24:07true, then the chances of reducing the
24:10crime rate among low-income blacks
24:12anytime soon is slim.
24:18This is what we see playing out today in
24:20Baltimore, in St. Louis, and the Bronx,
24:23and Brooklyn, and Chicago and Detroit.
24:27But you can't say that out loud.
24:30Particularly, and I mean that literally,
24:32you whites cannot say that out loud.
24:36You can, but you will catch hell.
24:40When I say it, I will get my head handed
24:43to me. But we all know it's true.
24:47The Klux Clan is not driving through
24:50these neighborhoods spraying bullets.
24:53That is not what is going on.
24:55But you can't state the obvious. It is
24:58politically incorrect.
25:01Try to bring up black culture in a
25:03debate about crime
25:07today. You'll have your head handed to
25:09you. Try to bring up the breakdown of
25:11the black family
25:14in a debate about
25:16incarceration rates.
25:20In fact, that's all we talk about today
25:22are incarceration rates. We don't even
25:24talk about crime per se, as if the two
25:26are completely unrelated.
25:30We talk about police shootings of black
25:33men as a measure of whether America
25:36values black lives or whether cops value
25:39black lives. We have mobs of people all
25:42over this country pretending that
25:44there's an epidemic
25:46of cops shooting blacks and the media
25:49has played right along.
25:52This is nonsense.
25:56The reality is that police are involved
25:58in approximately 2% of black shooting
26:01deaths each year in this country.
26:04One economist has calculated that a cop
26:07is about six times as likely to be shot
26:10by someone black as the opposite
26:12scenario.
26:14Blacks are about 13% of the population
26:18in this country. They'll commit more
26:20than half of all murders.
26:24Roughly 7,000 blacks are murdered each
26:26year and 90% of them are killed by other
26:30blacks.
26:32There's your epidemic.
26:36There's your tragedy. That's the
26:38outrage.
26:40The question isn't whether cops value
26:43black lives or America values black
26:46lives. Isn't the more relevant question
26:49whether the young black men doing all
26:51this killing value black lives? Are we
26:54supposed to hold whites to hold higher
26:56standards than blacks hold one another?
27:00Homicide homicide is the leading cause
27:04of death for young black men in the US.
27:08And it is not because cops are shooting
27:11them.
27:13Bad cops should be punished to the full
27:16extent of the law and they should
27:19certainly be held to a higher standard
27:22for violating the public trust.
27:25But if you believe that black lives
27:27matter,
27:29if you want to reduce the black body
27:32count
27:34as a practical matter, should the focus
27:37be on the 2% of black shooting deaths
27:40that involve cops or the 98% that don't?
27:47The violence that is so prevalent in
27:49these neighborhoods
27:51has enormous economic consequences.
27:55The common assumption is that poverty
27:58causes crime.
28:00But the truth is closer to the reverse.
28:04Businesses flee crimeridden
28:06neighborhoods. Jobs follow. Property
28:09values fall.
28:11One reason that blacks were progressing
28:13at a much faster rate in the first half
28:16of the 20th century
28:19is that black communities were much much
28:22less violent than they are today.
28:26The violence so prevalent today dates to
28:28the policy interventions of the 1960s
28:33when coddling criminals became
28:35fashionable among judges, politicians,
28:38and academics.
28:41And the government mistakenly believed
28:42that a welfare check could replace a
28:44father in the home.
28:49Before 1960, two out of three black
28:52children were raised in two parent
28:55families in this country. Today, more
28:58than 70% are not. And in our inner
29:02cities can reach as high as 80 or 90%.
29:07Before
29:091960, homicide rates in the US,
29:12including among blacks, had been falling
29:14significantly.
29:16In fact, the murder rate in 1960 was
29:19less than half of what it had been 25
29:22years earlier.
29:24Blacks obviously faced much more racism
29:27back then,
29:30but black families were also in much
29:31better shape
29:34and black communities were much safer
29:36and thus more conducive to social and
29:39economic progress, which is what we saw
29:41occurring back then. Let me close by
29:44noting that this concept of self-help
29:46and self-development that I think is
29:49essential to black advancement is
29:51something that black leaders once
29:52understood in this country understood it
29:55well and at a time when blacks faced
29:58infinitely more obstacles than they face
30:02in a country with a twice elected black
30:04president in the Oval Office.
30:08Frederick Douglas, a former slave, said
30:10in 1865 that everybody had asked him and
30:13the other abolitionist
30:15what to do with the negro.
30:18He said, "I've had but one answer from
30:20the beginning. Do nothing with us.
30:24If the apples will not remain on the
30:26tree of their own strength, let them
30:28fall. And if the negro cannot stand on
30:31his own legs, let him fall also."
30:35All I ask is give him a chance to stand
30:39on his own legs.
30:42Douglas was essentially saying, "Give
30:44blacks equal opportunity and then leave
30:47us alone."
30:49Booker T. Washington, another former
30:51slave, echoed that sentiment. He said
30:54that it is important and right that all
30:57privileges of the law be ours, but that
31:00it is vastly more important that we be
31:03prepared for the exercise of these
31:06privileges.
31:08Douglas and Washington didn't play down
31:10the need for the government to secure
31:12equal rights for blacks.
31:15And both were optimistic that they would
31:17get equal rights eventually, though
31:19neither man lived to see that day, of
31:21course. But both men also understood the
31:24limits of government benevolence.
31:27Blacks would have to ready themselves to
31:30meet the far bigger challenge of being
31:33in a position to take advantage of
31:35opportunities once equal rights had been
31:38secured.
31:40The history of 1960s liberal social
31:43policies is largely a history of
31:45ignoring this wisdom. I believe the
31:48Obama presidency is more evidence that
31:51blacks have indeed progressed
31:53politically in this country.
31:56But if the rise of other racial and
31:58ethnic groups is any indication, black
32:00social and economic problems are less
32:03about politics than they are about
32:06culture.
32:09A black man in the White House is all
32:11well and good, but he cannot substitute
32:14for one in the home.
32:18On that happy note, I will stop and take
32:21any questions if you have. Thank you.
32:23[Applause]
32:31Yes, Rory, thank you for your talk. Um,
32:35I'm white, so this is going to be on
32:38YouTube, so I have to choose my words
32:40carefully. Um, I'm a minority. I'm from
32:43Canada, so you can't tell. my speech
32:45pattern gives it away slightly. Um, I
32:48wanted to ask you kind of about
32:50uh the the issue of the welfare state
32:53and your argument. I guess that was sort
32:55of your argument. I mean, a lot of the
32:57arguments you could critique the welfare
32:59state's relation to the African-American
33:01community can be applied to many other
33:03communities. You could show that the
33:04welfare state maybe impacts Appalachian
33:06white poor badly or Hispanic poor in
33:08Arizona or whatever. And you know it
33:10would vary in different circumstances
33:12but you know it might be persuasive
33:14across all kinds of different
33:16impoverished groups, disadvantaged
33:17groups. And so that I guess then it
33:20would lead to wonder what its effect in
33:22particular on blacks. And again uh if it
33:25has a more severely negative effect on
33:27blacks you could say you say that that's
33:29because of blacks greater vulnerability
33:32or impoverishment in the United States.
33:34sort of like a an incompetent hospital.
33:37If it has a badly functioning emergency
33:39room, that's going to cause greater harm
33:41than a badly functioning urology
33:43department, but it could be the same
33:44kind of general dysfunction, public
33:46hospital, whatever. So, what is there a
33:50sense in which uh there are particular
33:52aspects of the so-called welfare state
33:54agenda that are particularly uh bad bad
33:58for blacks? Uh the one that came up a
34:01lot I think was in incarceration which
34:03we don't tend to think of as a welfare
34:05state policy either being for
34:09mandatory sentencing or or against it
34:11and so quote unquote soft on crime. Are
34:13there are there parts of the welfare
34:15state agenda that are specific to to the
34:19to the status of blacks in the United
34:21States and not simply a general public
34:23policy question? because it just seems
34:25that in a way this whole
34:28I I just guess that there's a lot of
34:30racism in America that that a lot of
34:33whites don't like blacks and the welfare
34:35state might be might be doubling down on
34:37the damage that does but uh
34:40but but it might not be really anything
34:42to do with the welfare state. It might
34:44be the welfare state making a bad
34:45situation worse.
34:48I think it is making a bad situation
34:51worse. I mean, I I think the
34:55Great Society programs have impacted
34:58different groups differently, but on
35:00balance for most groups, racial and
35:03ethnic groups,
35:05um the safety net has been
35:11temporary help when you hit hard times.
35:15What we've seen
35:18among a disproportionate number of
35:20blacks is
35:24a generational cycle of welfare
35:26dependency. It has not been a temporary
35:29well station way station where you get
35:31back on your feet and then move off
35:33again. Um so it has impacted different
35:36groups differently. Um and certain
35:40policies are going to impact different
35:41groups differently because um we're not
35:44widgets. We're not all interchangeable.
35:46Um black population is generally younger
35:49than the white population. So is the
35:51Hispanic population in general. That's
35:53going to have a completely different
35:56effect on
35:58how for instance raising minimum wages
36:00will impact labor force participation
36:03rates. if a disproportionate number of
36:05your group is younger, they're going to
36:07be disproportionately affected by a wage
36:09floor. Um, and who gets hired at that
36:12age? So there there are yes, the the the
36:16welfare state is impacted different
36:18groups uh differently. Um,
36:22I think
36:26I'd like to see more of a focus
36:28on what was happening in black America
36:30prior
36:32to the welfare state. And that's why I
36:34spent so much time talking about what
36:36was going on in between, say,
36:39reconstruction and the civil rights
36:41movement that began in earnest in the
36:441950s. And the progress we saw at that
36:47period is not something that current
36:51civil rights establishment wants to put
36:53much focus on. And I think the reason is
36:56it makes them less relevant to these
36:59debates. If if in fact uh fundamental
37:03civil rights issues are no longer the
37:04issue,
37:06um if in fact uh this is a a matter of
37:10self-development,
37:12they're continuing to place the focus on
37:14what white should be doing for blacks
37:16instead of what blacks should be doing
37:17for themselves. Um sounds more and more
37:20silly. So I don't think they have much
37:22interest in exploring or highlighting uh
37:26this history that I'm talking about in
37:28the first half of the 20th century. But
37:30to me it's it shows uh
37:34what could be done in the face of
37:35tremendous amount of discrimination and
37:37what was in fact happening. Um uh and so
37:40I think the the the the
37:43biggest problem with the welfare state
37:45is are the incentives that have been put
37:46in place. Um
37:49I spoke about
37:52trying to replace a a bread winner with
37:55a government check and so forth. Uh so
37:58it's problems on that regard too. Um and
38:01then uh
38:03well I'll leave it there. Yes. Thank you
38:07so much for f especially I like your
38:09focus on this around the great society
38:12program the trend sort of things were
38:15going okay but the great society program
38:20really sort of gave a break. And I have
38:23two questions. The first have what do
38:26the the black leaders especially on the
38:29left think about this data? What do they
38:33think that they deny that data or if
38:37they accept the data that they think a
38:39great society program did not do enough
38:42or didn't do right and that's the first
38:45qu second question
38:48what do you think should be done that we
38:50cannot withdraw society program that
38:52spirit at this moment politically it's
38:56next impossible so I'm wondering what
38:59you think of well um the the first
39:02question as to what the current black
39:05leadership thinks of the data um I think
39:07they
39:09dismiss it or downplay its significance
39:12um because they have an entirely
39:13different agenda that they're pushing
39:15and that data undermines their agenda
39:18the um but they have to say something
39:20basing the data they don't have to no um
39:24though
39:26I mean there are there are many
39:28explanations for what was going on in
39:30the country in the first half of the
39:3220th century. I mean, part of the part
39:34of what was going on was the uh
39:37postworld war II economy. America was
39:40booming and blacks were participating in
39:42that. It was it was lifting all boats,
39:45so to speak. Um, blacks were migrating
39:47out of the south at the time. um uh
39:52doing the same job in
39:55Detroit that you were doing in Mobile,
39:57Alabama is going to pay a lot more in
39:59Detroit, even if it's the same job. So,
40:02they were lifting their earnings simply
40:03by moving geographically to a different
40:05part of the country. They were
40:06increasing their years of education,
40:08again, both in absolute terms and
40:10relative to whites, which was again
40:12going to increase your compensation. So,
40:14there were a lot of things going on at
40:16the time. Um, and so, uh, uh, there are
40:21a lot of explanations for for for these,
40:24but the the civil rights establishment's
40:27focus is white racism,
40:30the they're they're they're operating,
40:33you know, when you go back to leaders
40:35like a Dr. King, people of that period,
40:39the NAACP at that time, they brought a
40:43mentality to this that said, "Blacks
40:44will have to succeed in America,
40:46notwithstanding racism. We've just got
40:48to get our act together and and and plow
40:50ahead." The civil rights establishment
40:53attitude today is the complete reverse
40:55of that.
40:57don't expect blacks to cons succeed or
40:59or move ahead or close any kind of of of
41:02racial gaps until racism has been
41:04vanquished from America. So they set
41:08about looking for, you know, Confederate
41:10flag sightings.
41:12Look, see, don't talk to me about those
41:15incarceration rates when you got people
41:16waving the Confederate flag around.
41:18That's their it's the complete opposite.
41:21And so they're they they they they latch
41:23on to any signs of residual racism again
41:26as an all-purpose explanation for all
41:28these racial disparities we see. And so
41:31that's where they keep the focus. Um and
41:33this data from the earlier period of the
41:3720th century is not something they are
41:38going to to highlight. And to the extent
41:41that they can downplay it or ignore it,
41:43uh they will. I mean the the racial
41:47the civil rights movement has become a
41:50civil rights industry and it is
41:52tremendously lucrative. The the racial
41:55grievance industry in this country is
41:57alive and well. you can make a very good
42:00living um spending all of your time
42:04searching out white racism and
42:08highlighting as an explanation for all
42:12the bad things you see going on in black
42:13America. Um you can still make a very
42:15very good living doing that's what they
42:17do.
42:20Um you um
42:25I lived in a uh small
42:28town in the south back in the 70s. My
42:32daughter attended the high school was
42:3550% white and 50% black. This was Mon
42:39Georgia and there were no problems, no
42:42knives, no drugs.
42:45Um they came back with What year? What
42:48year would this have been? Uh 1979.
42:52No drugs, no knives. Um she came back
42:55with a southern accent after a while.
42:58Yeah. My wife thought maybe it was time
43:01to move back north. But uh there was a
43:05reason for that. The families were
43:06intact and they were in charge of the
43:08young people, both the white families
43:11and the black families. And religion was
43:14still very strong. So I'd be interested
43:17in your take on what's going on in the
43:19south. We you have the political
43:22reverends like Al Sharpton getting the
43:25media attention, getting the legitimacy
43:27at the expense of the conservative black
43:30ministry. Is this eroding along with the
43:33welfare programs seeping into other
43:35southern cities, the smaller cities, not
43:38just Atlanta?
43:40Is is is what eroding? The
43:44um
43:46the erosion of the family and the
43:48erosion of effective social control over
43:50young people, the breakdown of the
43:52family. Um the is that the welfare
43:56system moving into the south and into Oh
43:59yeah, I think so.ization
44:02of the ministry. Most blacks still live
44:04in the south in the country. Um so um
44:07and and yes when I when I talk about um
44:10some of our inner cities and the
44:11problems we see I I mean yes you can
44:13talk about Chicago and Detroit and
44:15Cleveland but yeah Atlanta and St. Louis
44:17are also involved in that. Um Houston uh
44:20you see these the the same sort of um
44:23social pathology the same sort of
44:25problems in these communities. I think
44:26it's cultural. It's not necessarily
44:28geographic. Um, I will say though to to
44:31the
44:33you've you've seen a reverse migration
44:35over the past 20 25 years of blacks
44:38moving back to the south. Um, which I
44:42think would again undermine the the
44:44racism the racism narrative that um um
44:47that racism is driving all this. um if
44:49if the south was still the south of you
44:52know uh bull connor I don't think you'd
44:55still you you'd have that that migration
44:58back south that we've seen and it wasn't
45:00just blacks moving back south the c you
45:02know the southeast and the southwest in
45:04particular throughout the 90s and 2000s
45:06were um were net plus in population
45:10gains that's where jobs were that's
45:12where people were moving but and blacks
45:13were moving right along with the others
45:15so I think that that that to me is
45:18evidence evidence of some racial
45:19progress that we've had that again the
45:21civil rights leadership would would want
45:23to play down because again they have a
45:25vested interest in pretending that you
45:27know Bull Connor is running the um St.
45:29Louis Police Department in fact and
45:31Baltimore Police Department in fact and
45:32so forth.
45:36Yes
45:38more about what your positive
45:39recommendation for the future would be
45:42because as the question before last said
45:44it would be difficult to roll back some
45:45of these programs. It it it would be
45:48difficult I think and that's why um I
45:51mean my book is not one of solutions. I
45:53don't have the solution. I should have
45:54made that very clear. I don't have the
45:56the solutions to the problems I'm
45:58addressing. I I mean I I I see my role
46:02in
46:05looking at
46:07public policies, their track record,
46:11and
46:12starting conversations about what's
46:14worked and what hasn't. And I think the
46:15people who do claim to have the
46:16solutions, um, I think I'm serving a
46:19useful purpose as they proceed to come
46:21up with, uh, what they think will work.
46:23Uh, I'd like to see a little more
46:25humility on their part. Um, instead of a
46:28simple doubling down on what's been
46:30tried with, uh, throwing more resources
46:33at the problem. Um, in terms of the
46:36Great Society, um, you're right, it will
46:38be very very difficult to roll back some
46:40of these some of these programs. I think
46:42we can simply stop growing them in some
46:45to some extent and give people in I
46:47think the welfare reforms of 1996 under
46:50Clinton did some good. I I I think
46:53there's a template there to work from.
46:55Um um the welfare to work programs and
46:59and and and um stopping open-ended
47:02welfare policies uh and so forth. And I
47:05I think there's progress there. I I'm
47:07optimistic on what I see on the
47:09education reform front with charter
47:11schools. Um which to me show that these
47:15kids are educable and that it is not the
47:18kids, it's the schools. Uh you see some
47:20of these high performing charters
47:23taking these inner city kids and and
47:25producing um better test results than
47:27you see in white suburbs.
47:29uh it's difficult to expand these models
47:32because the powers that be who control
47:34them uh are standing in the way of that
47:36you know they have a different
47:39they have different priorities I think
47:41for for um the teachers unions and their
47:44political patrons on the left public
47:46education is more of a jobs program for
47:48adults and so bad schools stay open
47:51because they may be failing the kids but
47:52they're still providing jobs uh and so
47:55we've got to get get over that hurdle
47:57but I am optimistic that we have a bunch
48:01of education models that we know work
48:03for the toughest to teach kids and it's
48:05just really a matter of expanding those
48:06models not coming up with the models. So
48:08I think I I see progress on on that
48:10front but even there you'll have push
48:13back um
48:15I'll give you a good example uh
48:18again from people who who who want who
48:20want to help who say this this will
48:22help. You have the Obama administration
48:24pushing um public schools to stop
48:28suspending black kids as often as they
48:31do.
48:34How does it help the kids who go to
48:37school to learn?
48:39If you go easy on the bullies,
48:43particularly the black kids who go to
48:44school learn, they're already relegated
48:48to the worst schools in the system
48:50with
48:52the least capable teachers.
48:55You're going to make them attend the
48:56most violent schools as well. How is
48:58this going to help close the achievement
49:00gap? And why would you expect to see
49:04racial par
49:06suspension rates?
49:08Why would you expect to see racial par
49:12and disciplinary outcomes in schools? Do
49:15you see it outside of schools? Do you
49:17think this bad behavior starts after
49:20graduation?
49:22So the whole basic assumption here that
49:25we would see racial parity and outcomes
49:27and disciplining kids in school,
49:30white kids are suspended at higher rates
49:33than Asian kids.
49:35Is there an anti-white bias?
49:37Boys are suspended at higher rates than
49:39girls. I mean, groups behave
49:41differently, but why are our sympathies
49:43with the bullies and not with the kids
49:45who go to school to learn? Um, but that
49:49is the mentality. You have the president
49:51trying to shut down
49:53a school voucher program in Louisiana
49:56because it will disrupt
50:00uh desegregation orders from the 1960s
50:03and 70s. It'll disrupt the racial
50:05balance of this of the classrooms if
50:08this voucher program is allowed to take
50:10effect depending on who takes advantage
50:12of the voucher, which families. So
50:18the president is essentially more
50:20interested in the racial makeup of the
50:22classroom than he is in whether anyone's
50:24learning.
50:28It's all about these priorities and
50:29these assumptions that we have. Um some
50:33of the best public schools in this
50:36country are charter schools that are
50:38highly segregated.
50:41It seems not to have a huge impact on
50:43the performance of the kids. Black kids
50:45do not need to be sitting next to white
50:47kids to learn. It may be nice
50:49aesthetically. It might be pleasing to
50:51the eye. But to make it a priority to
50:54stop an education reform based on that,
50:58where's the evidence? Where is the
51:00evidence?
51:02Here's a question. Um
51:05uh regardless of what the government
51:07should do, what what do you think uh
51:09should be the attitude of whites toward
51:13blacks? Uh you say uh stop helping us
51:16and and uh if only it were true about
51:20white racism, then that might be better
51:22for you. It's not your fight. It's it's
51:24it's not your struggle. It's not your
51:26fight. It's it's um you're welcome to
51:29join the conversation, but it's not
51:31really about you. Blacks need to have
51:32these conversations with other blacks in
51:34these communities. Um, and these
51:36conversations are taking place. Some
51:38blacks don't want to have them in front
51:39of any white people, but um,
51:44I I I guess one one
51:49I've heard other black conservatives say
51:51this is is uh they could do with fewer
51:54guilt trips. I mean, a lot of these
51:57efforts to help regardless of whether
52:01any it's helping
52:04has to do with alleviating the guilt of
52:07um of the person trying to help. And so
52:11while they may be making themselves feel
52:12better, they're not doing any good and
52:14in some cases are doing harm. You you
52:16take something like affirmative action
52:18in higher education.
52:21um
52:24sympathetic whites, kids from difficult
52:28backgrounds,
52:30let's let them into the schools. Let cut
52:31the corner. Let them in. It'll all work
52:34out in the end. No, it doesn't all work
52:36out in the end. It doesn't all work out
52:39in the end.
52:41You're mismatching kids with schools.
52:43You're setting up smart black kids to
52:45fail at institutions that you want them
52:48to be in because it's aesthetically
52:50pleasing. Instead of letting them into
52:52let the chips fall where they may,
52:54letting them attend schools where they
52:55can meet the requirements of the average
52:58freshman at that school and have a much
52:59greater chance of succeeding at that
53:00school and graduating. I mean, what is
53:03the priority here? I I was talking last
53:06night to someone and brought up a a a
53:08study done some years ago of black kids
53:10at MIT. Black kids at at MIT in this
53:14study scored in the top 10% on the math
53:17section of the SAT.
53:20All kids in the country, top 10%.
53:23Talking about some really smart black
53:24kids, but they were in the bottom 10%
53:26among their peers at MIT.
53:30So kids who would be hitting it out of
53:32the park at a less selective school were
53:35struggling and failing at higher rates,
53:38switching to easier majors at MIT.
53:41But the administrators at MIT,
53:44their priority was making that college
53:47catalog look like America, making that
53:50campus, color coding that campus.
53:53Diversity,
53:54whether or not you graduated was a
53:56secondary concern.
53:59How are you helping? out in the
54:01University of California system after
54:03they ended racial preferences back in
54:05the 1990s,
54:07black college graduation rates went up
54:10by more than 50%. Including in some of
54:13the more difficult disciplines of math
54:15and science and engineering, again, by
54:18more than 50%.
54:20A program that had been put in place to
54:23increase the ranks of the black middle
54:24class, increase the number of black
54:26doctors and lawyers was in fact
54:29producing fewer black doctors and
54:32lawyers and engineers and chemists than
54:34we would have had in the absence of the
54:36policy.
54:38Stop helping.
54:40I mean
54:42that's that's the point. I mean, so
54:48I think ultimately that this is a
54:52an issue that the black community is
54:54going to have to work out on its own. I
54:56don't think it's going to come from the
54:57black political leadership, by the way,
54:59because again, I think they have their
55:01own agenda like the civil rights leaders
55:04do, and they're not necessarily
55:06uh the same the same agenda that um that
55:09the black underclass needs pushed on
55:10their behalf. So, I don't think it's
55:12going to come from uh the black
55:14political leadership either, but it is
55:17something that I think will have to come
55:18from the black community. Um, and
55:19whether that's going to be led by, you
55:21know, just community activists or
55:22administrators or what have you, but
55:24people close to the ground. And these
55:25and these organizations do exist. Many
55:28of you don't know about them though
55:29because the press runs to Jesse Jackson,
55:31El Sharpton speak on behalf of the black
55:33community.
55:35And so, that's who you hear about. But
55:37there are people in these communities
55:39doing this work um and saying these
55:41things out loud. Uh you they just don't
55:44have their own TV shows or meet with
55:47Albana in the White House.
55:50Roger.
55:52You Oh, thank you. Um thank you for an
55:55excellent talk uh helping me understand
55:58this whole uh America's original sin
56:01much more clearly than before. Um you be
56:05very early in your talk you talked you
56:07referred several quite a bit to the uh
56:11voting rights question and of course
56:13there's a tremendous amount of
56:14controversy
56:16in the Supreme Court area and the whole
56:18courts the whole judicial system as well
56:20as in the Congress about voting rights
56:23issues and
56:25uh what we do to
56:28continue
56:29uh the progress made in that area uh and
56:34at the present time and I wonder if
56:37there's so many complications there that
56:39I'm I don't think it's complicated at
56:41all and that's why I started with the
56:43Voting Rights Act. I think it's very
56:44clear it's been a tremendous success and
56:47this debate we're having over voter ID
56:49laws and the rest. The voter ID laws
56:51were put in place prior to 2012.
56:54Um, and yet you had blacks out uh
56:59turning out at higher rates than whites
57:01for elections. Even in states with the
57:04toughest voter ID laws, even in southern
57:07states with the toughest voter ID laws,
57:09the black voter turnout rate was higher
57:12than the white turnout rate. this whole
57:14discussion over voting rights and
57:16whether there's some whether the black
57:17franchises, it's a complete pure
57:20political debate aimed at jetting up
57:23black people and and and Democrats using
57:26it to um to rile up their base. The
57:29black franchise is not in jeopardy. Um
57:33blacks are turning out for elections at
57:35unprecedented rates. nothing decided by
57:38the Supreme Court does anything to
57:41jeopardize the Voting Rights Act's core.
57:44Um, and you know,
57:48if a black person or any other person
57:51feels that they are being denied the
57:53right to vote or access to a vote to to
57:56to to a ballot, they have legal
57:59recourse.
58:00Um, so I I I think it is a it is a non
58:04issue. the the the black franchise is
58:06not in jeopardy in this country and and
58:08and the proliferation of of voter ID
58:12laws is not evidence to the contrary. I
58:14think it is evidence that people worried
58:16about ballot integrity, but the left
58:19wants to turn it into purely this effort
58:20by evil Republicans to um to strip away
58:23black people's right to vote. And I
58:25don't think they have the evidence on
58:28their side given these black voter
58:29turnout rates that we've seen. And
58:30again, they predate Obama. This is a
58:33trend that dates back to the Clinton
58:34administration, this uh increase in
58:36black voter turnout.
58:38Thank you. Yeah. Yes, Alex.
58:42So, uh, one slightly peculiar aspect of
58:47the situation as you describe it is that
58:50when blacks were still oppressed and
58:53mistreated by whites
58:55um, in 40s and 50s, the prevailing norm
58:59in the black community seems to have
59:01been to to imitate whites. Now I know
59:05have some anecdotal evidence for this
59:08because a friend of mine uh black was
59:11born in 1940 has described this and says
59:14that when he was growing up the norm was
59:17to imitate whites and he's somewhat
59:18perplexed by what happened in By imitate
59:22do you mean assimilate? Okay. Assimilate
59:24is a yeah that's a better term. follow
59:27the norms of Yeah, I think I Yeah, I
59:30think yes. I think um integration and or
59:34prior to um the um the movement towards
59:39uh integration there was always uh
59:41assimilation taking place and but you
59:44also always had black separatists out
59:45there even prior to the 1960s when they
59:48really so that was really the gist of my
59:51question in the 60s you had the great
59:52society program you also had the growth
59:55of black separatism black separatism
59:57which you haven't really discussed no I
59:59I it It's um I think it's an unfortunate
1:00:03development. I think that uh the um the
1:00:07black left and the the King Coalition
1:00:11uh was really broken up by these black
1:00:14separatist uh uh groups like Jewish uh
1:00:17Americans who had been allies of the
1:00:19civil rights movement for decades. um
1:00:22there from the beginning starting NAACP
1:00:24and so forth uh broke with the civil
1:00:27rights movement over the anti-semitism
1:00:29of of the um the black separatist
1:00:31movement. So I think a lot of of
1:00:33longtime alliances were destroyed to the
1:00:36detriment of of um and the credibility
1:00:39of the civil rights movement. Again, the
1:00:41shift from equal opportunity to equal
1:00:44results, the move towards quotas uh and
1:00:48set aides. I think a lot of Jews looked
1:00:50at that and said, "We cannot go there.
1:00:52We've been there and we're not going
1:00:54back to that and we can't be behind you
1:00:56pushing for something like that. We were
1:00:58for equal opportunity. Uh you you've
1:01:00you've you've moved the goalpost here
1:01:03and I think the the the the the Black
1:01:05Left is worse off because they decided
1:01:08to go that route. They lost moral
1:01:10credibility and they lost
1:01:14a lot of uh allies that that had been
1:01:18with them for a long time. But is that
1:01:19linked to attitudes that you reported
1:01:21for example amongst your your niece,
1:01:24right? The cultural
1:01:26the the black suffer attitude. Yeah.
1:01:29Yeah. I think I think it is. I I I think
1:01:31it is um uh racial solidarity. Um this
1:01:36sort of reflexive rejection of the man
1:01:40and anything he stands for and um not
1:01:44just in how we're going to dress, but
1:01:46how we're going to talk. And then you
1:01:48see how this becomes self-defeating.
1:01:51Um abonics
1:01:53um
1:01:55attitudes towards work and school. Um
1:01:58yes. and and a and a and a complete
1:02:00reversal from what earlier generations
1:02:04of blacks uh thought about these things.
1:02:06Um yeah. Yes. I think that I think there
1:02:08is some connection there.
1:02:11Thank you so much for being here. I
1:02:12always look forward to your columns in
1:02:13the journal and even though I'm not in
1:02:15charge, I would certainly recommend you
1:02:16being a graduation speaker here at
1:02:19your message would tremendous impact on
1:02:22changing people's minds. So, I had a
1:02:24couple of questions or a couple of
1:02:25thoughts that are combining some of the
1:02:26things you said about higher education
1:02:28and culture. And I can say this because
1:02:29I'm an Asian, but I'm probably told
1:02:31every few months something that would
1:02:33trigger a national disgrace in terms of
1:02:34a racist remark. I mean, by people here
1:02:37at Harvard and the physics department
1:02:38like, "Oh, you're not really Asian.
1:02:39You're really just white." And you know,
1:02:40oh, where are you from? Oh, your English
1:02:42is really good. Like, well, I was born
1:02:43in Ohio, right? And and this is
1:02:46routinely, but I don't care, right? Like
1:02:48I like if you say that, it just proves
1:02:50that you don't know anything, right?
1:02:50right? Like it's not like I'm going to
1:02:52take this to a lawsuit. But now like I
1:02:54think pushing forward in terms of like
1:02:56like in terms of culture as a as a
1:02:59physicist, I'm just not persuaded that
1:03:01anybody really cares about my personal
1:03:03culture, what my family background is,
1:03:04and it's just not that important in how
1:03:06we interact. And you sort of see this
1:03:08with affirmative action in higher
1:03:10education, say beyond the college level,
1:03:11say in the STEM fields or in the Silicon
1:03:13Valley, there's this move that that
1:03:15there should basically be lowered
1:03:16requirements that yet it's the most
1:03:18meritocratic, most aggressive thing. And
1:03:20it just seems a complete mismatch where
1:03:22you're with these libertarians who
1:03:24essentially are, you know, most of us,
1:03:26there's not even very many American born
1:03:28whites, right? Most of the people are
1:03:29large or they're foreigners and only 40%
1:03:31of our engineering school postphds are
1:03:34from America. So like this sort of
1:03:36reparation against these people from
1:03:37India. Yeah, you're you are I think
1:03:40you're you're describing perfectly I
1:03:42think the future of the affirmative
1:03:43action debate which is um up until now
1:03:46been mostly about
1:03:48whites, blacks, and Hispanics.
1:03:52Asians as their numbers grow
1:03:56are I think you're going to see more
1:03:58backlash here. It started out in
1:04:00California. Um, even after the
1:04:04the uh the ban on racial preferences in
1:04:07higher education that California
1:04:09implemented back in the '9s, we saw
1:04:11something that many of us suspected was
1:04:14going on. But now we had the proof,
1:04:16which is once schools couldn't take race
1:04:18into account, Asian enrollment at the
1:04:21elite campuses spiked.
1:04:24Now they all say we don't have cap.
1:04:25Calacio, we don't have a cap. We don't
1:04:27have a cap. But what happened? Asian
1:04:30enrollment spiked, showing that in fact
1:04:33they had been artificially capping the
1:04:36number. And at these elite schools, it
1:04:38is a zero- sum game. There are only so
1:04:40many freshman seats at the University of
1:04:42Texas at Austin. And slots saved or put
1:04:46aside for blacks and Hispanics are are
1:04:48slots that can't go to to other groups.
1:04:50And so the the the
1:04:52what are the proponents of of of
1:04:55affirmative action trying to reconcile?
1:04:57They're trying to reconcile um equal
1:05:00opportunity for individuals with group
1:05:02preferences, two irreconcilable things.
1:05:05But they're also now have to explain why
1:05:09Asians should be disadvantaged because
1:05:12of what East Asians, right? Like both at
1:05:16large. But they have to argue they have
1:05:18to now defend or argue or explain why
1:05:20Asians should be disadvantaged because
1:05:23of what whites did to blacks.
1:05:28That's that's where we're going and and
1:05:29and and these you have a few lawsuits. I
1:05:32think Harvard's part of one of them. um
1:05:35the next fight, you know, the the affirm
1:05:36of action uh for the lawyers in the room
1:05:38will know the affirmative of action
1:05:39fights are usually over the equal
1:05:40protection clause, but now there are
1:05:42some suits winning their way through the
1:05:44courts that are going to use title six
1:05:45of the Civil Rights Act, which basically
1:05:48says if you're an institution that
1:05:49accepts federal money, you can't be
1:05:52discriminating by race
1:05:54or taking race into account, which means
1:05:57even private institutions cannot uh uh
1:06:00have these these these affirmative
1:06:02action policies. That's the that's the
1:06:04argument that these latest lawsuits are
1:06:06bringing to the court. Um and Asians are
1:06:09the plaintiffs in in these um in these
1:06:12suits. So, we'll see we'll see where it
1:06:14heads. But I think that is going to be
1:06:16largely the future of the uh affirmative
1:06:18action debate. You're going to see more
1:06:20Asian voices. Um and and there was a
1:06:23move in California. Uh Jerry Brown came
1:06:27into office. He had the supermajority
1:06:29uh in the in the Assembly and the
1:06:31Senate. He started grabbing everything
1:06:33off the shelf. He's going to try and ram
1:06:35through. And one thing he wanted to try
1:06:37and do was reverse the referendum in 96
1:06:40that ended racebased admissions in in um
1:06:44in college admissions at the University
1:06:46of California system. He tried to get
1:06:48his supermajority legislature to pass
1:06:50this. Asian lawmakers stopped this
1:06:54effort. They said, "Oh, no, no, no, no,
1:06:57no. We are not going back to this old
1:06:59system." they stopped it cold and I
1:07:02don't think that's the only place um
1:07:05they're going to they're going to raise
1:07:06their their their hand there and and
1:07:08push back. How does a college do
1:07:09admissions considering all these factors
1:07:12if the federal government's going to
1:07:13regulate? I mean, I have no idea, right?
1:07:15They look at holistically what does the
1:07:17Well, you need the Supreme Court to stop
1:07:19punting on the issue. I mean, the
1:07:21Supreme Court keeps keep saying you can
1:07:24discriminate as long as you're not too
1:07:25obvious about it.
1:07:28No, no. use holistic
1:07:31admissions. Um you know uh schools are
1:07:34either going to stop using standardized
1:07:35tests altogether or um you know they're
1:07:40you know the Supreme Court is going to
1:07:43rule on this. I mean they were obviously
1:07:45supposed to rule this session. I don't
1:07:48know what's what's going to happen now
1:07:49because u what what probably at most
1:07:52would have been a 5-4 vote is now 44. Um
1:07:55so we'll we'll see. But um
1:07:59uh I think you're right. I think you're
1:08:01you're you are describing the future of
1:08:02the affirmative action debate in this
1:08:04country. Oh yeah. It's also by the way
1:08:07the the other the another other point I
1:08:09wanted to make about um Asian groups
1:08:12that relates to what I was saying
1:08:13earlier about um a focus on political
1:08:16power um
1:08:19which is something the civil rights
1:08:21movement did back in the 60s. It was a
1:08:23conscious effort. We are going to focus
1:08:25on I mean part of the part of the the
1:08:28thinking with the voting rights act was
1:08:29that it would lead to more black elected
1:08:31officials. It wasn't just about right
1:08:33access to the ballot. The goal was to
1:08:36increase the number of black elected
1:08:37officials. That political power would
1:08:39then redown to the black underclass and
1:08:41help lift them up. That's why I included
1:08:44those figures on the number of black
1:08:46elected officials we now have in this
1:08:47country. It was successful in that
1:08:49regard. We do have a lot of black slack
1:08:52people have a lot of political clout in
1:08:55this country but it has not redowned to
1:08:57the black underclass. And again there
1:08:59are people who will who have who who who
1:09:02have studied this and said we should
1:09:03never have expected it to. Most other
1:09:06groups in this country did it in the
1:09:08reverse. They lifted themselves
1:09:09socioeconomically first. They worried
1:09:12about elected office later. And those
1:09:14groups that did the reverse, like say
1:09:15the Irish who had these political
1:09:18machines running your Philadelphiaas and
1:09:19your Bostons and your New Yorks at the
1:09:22turn of the 20th century, those groups
1:09:24rose slower
1:09:27than groups who went with economic
1:09:29advancement first. And I think Asians
1:09:32are the latest example of this group
1:09:34hitting it out of the park in terms of
1:09:36household incomes, representation, the
1:09:38professions, educational attainment. How
1:09:40much political clout do Asians have in
1:09:42America? And has it been a barrier to
1:09:45their progress? And again, I think
1:09:47that's just the latest example that
1:09:48going the political route was the wrong
1:09:51way to go. Fundamentally, uh a
1:09:53fundamental um misstep by the by the
1:09:56civil rights movement. And that
1:09:57continues to be pushed by civil rights
1:09:59leaders today. This focus on political
1:10:02advancement.
1:10:06The the lady then you Ross and then you.
1:10:08Yes. Uh, hi. Uh, thanks for your talk.
1:10:11Um, I was wondering did you think that
1:10:12No Child Left Behind helped? I It was
1:10:15supposed to help address black
1:10:17achievement. Dr. I I I think it helped
1:10:19in some ways. And the most important way
1:10:21I think it helped is that it forced, and
1:10:24this might get into the weeds for some
1:10:26people, but
1:10:28what schools used to be able to do,
1:10:29districts used to be able to do is just
1:10:31to report average test scores to the
1:10:36superiors, to the state, and then to the
1:10:37federal government, which meant you
1:10:40didn't know who was
1:10:43lagging behind. if if you had
1:10:48it was easier to to rig the numbers.
1:10:51What No Child Left Behind forced these
1:10:54districts and schools to do is to
1:10:56disagregate the data by race and and um
1:11:01and economics and in terms of and
1:11:03earnings income. And so we knew you
1:11:06couldn't hide the fact that you might
1:11:08have a school that's 80% white and 20%
1:11:10black, but you couldn't just send in the
1:11:14average test scores. You had to send in
1:11:16how the white kids are doing and how the
1:11:18black kids are doing on their own. And I
1:11:20think and the and the goal originally
1:11:22was that that would embarrass schools
1:11:26into trying harder to lift up. You'd be
1:11:30penalized if you weren't making
1:11:31advancement. But even more importantly,
1:11:34you'd just be embarrassed that you had
1:11:36to report this now. So you'd have an
1:11:38incentive to help these these
1:11:40underachieving kids. Um so to the extent
1:11:43that it forced schools to do that and
1:11:47more of the country got to see what
1:11:50schools had been up to in terms of just
1:11:51reporting these averages, I think it did
1:11:53do some I think it did do some good. Um
1:11:55it got tied into these other debates
1:11:57over local control later on, but um but
1:12:00I did like that aspect of it. Yes. And
1:12:03so did by the way a lot of civil rights
1:12:05organizations, which is why they um they
1:12:09defended uh the law. Some of the more
1:12:11reformoriented civil rights
1:12:12organizations defended the law on those
1:12:14grounds in particular. Yeah.
1:12:18Go. Uh some people who study
1:12:22totalitarian societies have argued that
1:12:27after the end of communism for example
1:12:29there's a unexpected hangover of decline
1:12:34of morality
1:12:35because the the dictator was had
1:12:38squashed
1:12:40uh civil society and personal morality
1:12:44in favor of depending on the government
1:12:47and so on. I wonder is there a a ray of
1:12:51hope here in a parallel to your your
1:12:55cultural analysis which is fairly bleak.
1:13:00Could there be a even in the remark of
1:13:03your niece a hangover factor that the
1:13:07selfdeeat or the self-denigration
1:13:11is an internalizing of uh family history
1:13:16from the past and can be expected to
1:13:19pass and decline?
1:13:23Um
1:13:24I hope so. I uh I I should say in
1:13:28relation to my niece and how that turned
1:13:30out. Um it turned out fine. She uh she
1:13:35now has a graduate degree. She's better
1:13:38educated than I am. Now I go to her now
1:13:39who's acting white. Uh but uh but no,
1:13:42she she she turned out she turned out
1:13:44fine. Um
1:13:47um you you may be right. I I
1:13:51I don't know. It's complicated. Um, a
1:13:54lot of,
1:13:56you know, a lot of
1:13:58what makes this country so unique and is
1:14:01not just the
1:14:03differences in the political system to
1:14:05the total regimes you're talking about.
1:14:08It's it's just the diversity of people
1:14:10here and the cultures and and then and
1:14:12then the the mix that we have here. Um,
1:14:17and and and you've got a lot of things
1:14:19going on at at once in that regard. What
1:14:21what I mean is
1:14:24uh
1:14:26you know while while we still have these
1:14:29racial gaps,
1:14:32we also
1:14:34elected a black president twice. So it's
1:14:37proof that progress has been made in
1:14:39terms of attitudes towards blacks by the
1:14:42larger white society on some fronts. But
1:14:45even that change in attitude has not
1:14:47necessarily
1:14:49addressed
1:14:51some of these racial these these social
1:14:53pathologies taking place in these ghetto
1:14:56neighborhoods. Um, now some people would
1:14:58say they would never expect the two to
1:15:00be that related to to one another in in
1:15:03in the first place, but
1:15:07as far as a hangover,
1:15:11I I think
1:15:13I will say this. I I think that uh some
1:15:16of the more disturbing data I've seen
1:15:19that will be dealing with post Obama is
1:15:22the decline in race relations on his
1:15:24watch. Um we've got a lot of ground to
1:15:27make up. Uh I mean we lost
1:15:30a tremendous amount of ground in this
1:15:33country on that front if you look at the
1:15:34polling on race relations over the past
1:15:37eight years. Uh which is sad um but it's
1:15:40it's true. So, um, it's a sort of
1:15:44multifront
1:15:45war that we're fighting on behalf of the
1:15:48black underclass. Uh, you have victories
1:15:50here, you have setbacks there, but I'm
1:15:53not that pessimistic about it. I mean, I
1:15:55think
1:15:56we'll meddle through. Thank you for the
1:15:58presentation, but more for your courage.
1:16:00Every time I read you or see you, I I
1:16:02can imagine the abuse you take from the
1:16:04black and liberal commun establishment
1:16:07communities. Um, you educate people and
1:16:10there are some other courageous people
1:16:11out there like Shelby Steele and others
1:16:13who've been doing this. The facts have
1:16:14been out there for a long time. They
1:16:16don't seem to be sinking through. I
1:16:17mean, I I spent a long time in the media
1:16:20and the media just love to play the race
1:16:23story. They love the white versus black
1:16:25and the oppression thing. Um, I I was
1:16:27going to ask you whether you what what
1:16:29we need to change and how we can
1:16:31approach it differently so that there's
1:16:33a different outcome, but you've already
1:16:35said you don't have solutions. So, I
1:16:36just wanted to ask, are you optimistic
1:16:38at all? Well, I think that the you
1:16:41mentioned the media, and I think the
1:16:42media could play a a role in
1:16:47seeking out
1:16:50voices other than Al Sharpton and Jesse
1:16:53Jackson and the NAACP
1:16:55to speak on behalf of what's going on in
1:16:58black communities. I think that would be
1:17:00a very um useful thing for the for the
1:17:03media to do. And part of the reason they
1:17:06don't do it, I think, is uh partly just
1:17:08laziness. Um you've been going to the
1:17:10same people forever. You know, um
1:17:15America knows who these people are. It's
1:17:17just uh it's it's easy. It's ideal. It's
1:17:19it's it's easy. And this that's the
1:17:21second thing. The second thing, I think,
1:17:22is that you have a a media that
1:17:25politically overwhelmingly agrees with
1:17:30the Jesse Jackson, the Al Sharpton. So
1:17:32they go to them
1:17:34uh as well. But um but I think so I I I
1:17:38think there there is a a role and and
1:17:41and we have seen uh over the past 20 25
1:17:44years um
1:17:46a proliferation of media outlets with
1:17:49different points of view. So you know
1:17:52there's there's some optimism there I
1:17:54think. Uh yeah,
1:17:57you mentioned earlier that race
1:18:00relations had declined
1:18:02under the very administration where a
1:18:04lot of people were optimistic that race
1:18:06relations would get better. I know
1:18:09people who voted for Obama, at least the
1:18:11first time, not because they agreed with
1:18:13him, but because they thought that there
1:18:16would be an advancement in racial
1:18:18relations for the black. Yeah. Why did
1:18:22it go the wrong way and what's to be
1:18:24done about it?
1:18:27Uh well, I what's to be done about it? I
1:18:29don't
1:18:31I don't know. I think you just have to
1:18:32have a someone in the White House that
1:18:35um can deescalate these things and and
1:18:38not um
1:18:40Why did Obama not do that? Well, I part
1:18:44part
1:18:46I I I think there are a couple things
1:18:47that happened. Something's completely
1:18:48out of the control of the president. I
1:18:50mean, the president's not responsible
1:18:51for Ferguson,
1:18:53Missouri, and what what took on what
1:18:54took place there. Um, but he is
1:18:57responsible for how he responded to it
1:18:59and whether he escalated or deescalated.
1:19:02But other things he's done, I think,
1:19:04contribute to the to the retrogression
1:19:07and race relations, such as the voting
1:19:09rights stuff we were talking about
1:19:10earlier. This is a president who sent
1:19:12his attorney general, his black attorney
1:19:15general around the country
1:19:18telling people that Republicans were
1:19:20trying to disenfranchise black people.
1:19:23That is not helping race relations. And
1:19:26he did that. This is a president who
1:19:28sent his attorney general out and others
1:19:30out, his vice president out to say that
1:19:36criticism of the president is race
1:19:39based.
1:19:41that is not helpful. Um, so there are
1:19:45things outside of the president's
1:19:46control, I think, that have that have
1:19:47that have led to the deterioration in
1:19:50race relations. But there are other
1:19:51things I think fully within his control,
1:19:54consciously done because with a mind
1:19:57towards getting out his base to help his
1:20:00party and he knows that um he knows how
1:20:03to rile up black folks and playing the
1:20:05race card and keeping that front and
1:20:07center is a good way to do it. Um, you
1:20:09know, Bernie Sanders just runs around
1:20:11now saying, um, you know, he's got he
1:20:14makes sure he's always sure to include,
1:20:16you know, systemic racism in every
1:20:19speech. It's a guaranteed applause line
1:20:21if he's in front of a black audience.
1:20:23Um, it it's it's you play to the victim
1:20:27status of blacks and that's how you earn
1:20:30their vote. That's how you earn their
1:20:32support. And the president has not been
1:20:33above doing that. He has not been above
1:20:36doing that. I think we
1:20:39to to your last question of what's to be
1:20:41done going forward. I think you start
1:20:42with a president who's above that sort
1:20:45of thing. This president has not been.
1:20:48Jordan, I want to ask you about Tanahasi
1:20:52coats and about some of the
1:20:54contributions that he's made to what
1:20:56what I think is sort of similarity
1:20:58between your your work, which is to
1:21:00critique government policies, which he's
1:21:02done a pretty good job at FHA
1:21:04redlinining different criminal justice
1:21:07policies, things like that. I'm curious
1:21:08about a reaction to to that work that
1:21:11he's done and maybe how you guys have
1:21:13taken sort of different avenues in that
1:21:15critique. I'm also curious about a
1:21:17second thing related to him and that is
1:21:19this narrative that he presents in in
1:21:21his most recent book about the black
1:21:24body and about the sort of perpetual
1:21:26endangerment of the black male in
1:21:28American society and and what your
1:21:31thoughts are on on that the way in which
1:21:33he presents that idea. Well, to your
1:21:36first point, I would agree that he does
1:21:38a very good job of laying out all of the
1:21:41efforts
1:21:43um
1:21:45made by the government on behalf of
1:21:48blacks and black underclass in
1:21:50particular over the past 50 years and
1:21:52what an utter failure they've been. He
1:21:54talks about fair housing act. He talks
1:21:57about any number of great society
1:21:59programs.
1:22:00I think it's an excellent analysis of
1:22:05how they haven't worked. Then he
1:22:07concludes by saying, "But we need one
1:22:09more and this one will work." So he he
1:22:13he goes his his his reparations piece,
1:22:15which I read,
1:22:17again goes through all of these wealth
1:22:20redistribution schemes that have failed.
1:22:23And then he ends the piece by calling
1:22:24for yet another wealth redistribution
1:22:27scheme, reparations. And my question is
1:22:29simply, why are you confident that this
1:22:31one will be any more successful than the
1:22:34ones you've just described for the past,
1:22:36you know, 10,000 words? And I I'm I
1:22:40don't have an answer to to that. But he
1:22:42has this abiding belief that the
1:22:44government can fix black America. And I
1:22:48don't think that is true. And I don't
1:22:52see anything in black America's history
1:22:55that would give them any confidence that
1:22:57the government the government's often
1:22:58been the source of their problems. And I
1:23:01they've had to overcome the government
1:23:03policies that have been put in place
1:23:05that that Coats has has described so
1:23:07eloquently. Um so I I I I there seems to
1:23:11be a disconnect there as as I read his
1:23:13um his policy analysis. In terms of the
1:23:16black body stuff, I I think it's sort of
1:23:18just an over-the-top
1:23:20uh
1:23:22writing. Uh it's it's it's
1:23:26and it's disconnected from reality. I I
1:23:28mean, I grew up I know something about
1:23:31being black and male in the inner city.
1:23:33It's not that hard to avoid getting shot
1:23:35by cops.
1:23:36It isn't.
1:23:39It's much harder to avoid getting shot
1:23:41by other young black men. And Coats
1:23:43knows that.
1:23:45So to pretend that if his body is in
1:23:49danger that it's in danger from um
1:23:54the police, it's it's just
1:23:58this whole notion this this this whole
1:24:00idea that tension between the cops and
1:24:04the black community and this this lack
1:24:07of trust. Black people call the cops
1:24:09more than any other group in America,
1:24:11which is a funny way of showing you
1:24:13don't trust them.
1:24:17So the the the the the cops are in these
1:24:19communities because that is where the
1:24:219/11 calls originate.
1:24:25It that's that's your explanation. And
1:24:29and it is the law-abiding blacks in
1:24:31these communities that the cops are
1:24:33there um trying to defend from the black
1:24:36lawmakers law breakers. And that's
1:24:39that's
1:24:40that is that is a front
1:24:44Sometimes they're one and the same.
1:24:45Yeah. But um um so yeah, I I coach it's
1:24:49it's just this I I he loses me
1:24:52completely on that front that um uh
1:24:56yeah, he just he just loses me. I I I
1:24:58don't know what he's This was a question
1:25:01about a a book. Does everybody know the
1:25:03title of the book? All right. Because
1:25:06I've forgotten it.
1:25:09What is it? That's that's probably best.
1:25:11All right.
1:25:14But Coats is also evidence that
1:25:17the racial grievance industry is alive
1:25:19and well in this country and that you
1:25:20can still make a very good living
1:25:22blaming black problems on white people.
1:25:24I mean, he's going to pick up right
1:25:25where you know the and he's got a, you
1:25:28know, there are army of those guys out
1:25:30there. You on the left, you've got, you
1:25:31know, other black academics backing him
1:25:34up. you know, your Michael Eric Dyson's,
1:25:37uh, your your um, uh, Galani Cobbs, your
1:25:41just this this is a whole farm team that
1:25:45the left has out there sort of
1:25:47intellectualizing Al Sharpton
1:25:51and that's what they do. Um but um and
1:25:54and and monetizing white guilt
1:25:58and you can still make a very good
1:25:59living doing that if that's the root
1:26:01much better living I think than you can
1:26:03make talking about black self-help. But
1:26:06um but I still get accused of saying
1:26:08what I say for the money. And I go well
1:26:10if I say what I say for the money you
1:26:12should compare my speaking fees with
1:26:13Tanahesi coaches and uh get back to me
1:26:16on that. But
1:26:20uh I don't Is that directed against us?
1:26:24Anyway, but anyway, uh Jason Riley,
1:26:26we're very grateful for your wonderful
1:26:29last one. Uh oh, you got there's another
1:26:31question. Yeah, just just real quick on
1:26:32a sort of different topic about the
1:26:34future of race and in particular uh
1:26:36mixing of races, right? And how these
1:26:38these groups as far as I can tell are
1:26:39starting to blur. And also like and this
1:26:41is something that I've read more than
1:26:42I've experienced that African-Americans
1:26:44tend to have lower like African-American
1:26:46women are not as interested in dating or
1:26:49intermaring with other I just this is
1:26:51again read and I didn't have any
1:26:52experience with this but just kind of
1:26:53curious sort of going forward as all
1:26:56these boundaries with intermarriage
1:26:57start to blur. I
1:27:01I don't know the numbers I don't have
1:27:03the numbers at the ready. I I do know
1:27:05that black women are very reluctant to
1:27:07marry out. Um the the the saying is that
1:27:11they'll marry down before they marry
1:27:12out. So you have um a lot of better
1:27:15educated women married to less educated
1:27:17men. Um I don't I don't know why. Um I
1:27:21mean I don't know the the the
1:27:23psychological or sociological research
1:27:25behind it. Um but I do know it's it's
1:27:27it's it's uh it is the case. Um, in
1:27:30terms of intermarriage numbers though,
1:27:32I'm not I'm not um I just don't know the
1:27:35the numbers, but I I think that is if if
1:27:40that's what it's going to take, it's
1:27:41going to take a long time.
1:27:45Yeah. Yeah. I mean, intermarriage rates
1:27:47for other groups are much much higher. I
1:27:50mean, you know, um Asians, Hispanics,
1:27:53Jews, people marrying out. Yeah. Yeah.
1:27:56It's much higher among other groups.
1:27:58Yeah.
1:28:00Thanks a lot, Jason. Thank you. Thank
1:28:02you.

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