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Jarrett Adams On Being Wrongfully Convicted, 'Redeeming Justice,' Mental Well-Being, Prison Reform — Transcript

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0:00Oh, no.
0:01Every day I wake up. Wake your ass up.
0:03The Breakfast Club. Y'all finished or
0:05y'all done?
0:07Yep, it's the world's most dangerous
0:08morning show, The Breakfast Club.
0:09Charlamagne tha God, Jess Hilarious, DJ
0:11Envy. Jess and DJ Envy on here today,
0:12but LL Cool Bae Lauren La Rosa is. And
0:14we talking to a very special brother,
0:16man. His name is Jared Adams, okay? He's
0:18got a book out called Redeeming Justice,
0:20but he is a civil rights attorney and
0:22justice reform advocate with an amazing
0:24story. Good morning, my brother.
0:26>> Good morning. Good morning. Thank you
0:27both for having me on here. Thank you
0:29for being
0:30>> Absolutely. You know, you were you were
0:31wrongfully convicted and spent uh 10
0:34years in prison for a crime you didn't
0:36commit. Yeah.
0:37>> And then you you were 17, I believe,
0:39right? 17 years old.
0:40>> 17, but you went on to become an
0:42attorney yourself. Yeah. Um not the
0:45first to do it, but
0:47um 17 years old, wrongfully convicted.
0:50My conviction being over versed reversed
0:52after almost 10 years with the help of
0:54the the Wisconsin Innocence Project. And
0:56then it was what I saw inside the prison
0:59that really led me on the journey that
1:00I'm on right now. So, when I get to this
1:03maximum security prison, you know, I'm
1:05one of the youngest, you know, inmates
1:06who's walking around this prison.
1:08Um by the time I'm on my way out, you
1:11know, of of this prison,
1:13I'm looking at
1:14mainly 80, 90% of the prison
1:17is 17, 18-year-old men of color.
1:21So, literally the prison boom that we
1:23talk about right now, that was when I
1:25was doing my time, and it was just it
1:27was a sight to see. So, when I left up
1:29out of those doors, I told myself not
1:32only was I not going to go back, but I'm
1:34going to try to do something to keep
1:35people from going there and pull out as
1:36many brothers and sisters now
1:38increasingly that I'm doing as I can.
1:40Now, I was thinking, man, when you walk
1:41into a courtroom now as a lawyer, what
1:45part of that teenage version of you is
1:47still present in your mind?
1:49The the the part of it Well, it's two
1:51it's two, you know, um I would say it's
1:53two spirits when I go in there. Number
1:56one, I thank God that I'm able to walk
1:59in there now, you know, a champion of
2:00justice, you know, being able to pull
2:02people out. But then also when I go in
2:04there, there's a bit of, you know, y'all
2:07tried to tried to murk me. You tried to
2:09take me out, you know what I mean? So,
2:10I'm walking through swinging arms like
2:11George Jefferson in this boy, you know
2:13what I mean? [laughter]
2:14Like like legitly. So, there's a there's
2:16a there's a moment of being proud.
2:17There's definitely being humble, but but
2:20it's a reminder that man, look, this is
2:22all I fight. You understand what I'm
2:24saying? There are there are more
2:26families affected now by our system, and
2:29we got to find a way to link arms and
2:30create a human chain.
2:32How do you identify like what clients
2:35you choose to take on?
2:37Well, it's an interesting question
2:38because
2:39for a long time, Lauren, I was a sucker
2:42for all my son, and you know, my my
2:46>> Seeing anybody behind bars is tough,
2:48right?
2:48>> It is, but then also like my going
2:50through my journey, I went through it
2:51with my mama. My mama, single black
2:53mother. I go through it with her, and we
2:56became tighter. And so, once I got my
2:57law degree, and this will help answer
2:59the question, too. You know how you got
3:01to wait in the mail for the law degree
3:02to actually get to the house? So, when
3:03it gets to the house, my mama tell me I
3:05come over there, and I told her I want
3:07her to keep it. And so, she started
3:09crying, and I say, "Well, what what you
3:10We ain't crying no more, man. We we
3:12doing good." She said, "No, no, I'm not
3:13crying cuz I'm sad. I'm crying cuz I
3:16know you just ain't going to go try to
3:17make money. You going you going to
3:19realize that there are other black males
3:21with single parents, and they going to
3:23need your help, and you going to help
3:24them, right?" So, for a long time, I was
3:27a sucker for that story. And then I'd
3:28get down deep in these cases and realize
3:30that it wasn't exactly what it was, but
3:33it never disturbed me from from from
3:35like perfecting the process of the
3:37intake unit that we have right now,
3:39right? I have an organization called
3:41Life After Justice, where we review
3:43these cases, and we try to select these
3:45cases on the cases that can do a couple
3:47different things, right? We always want
3:49to see people get out, but also if we
3:51can get out and make a change
3:52legislatively or or some rule that would
3:55prevent, those are the cases that we
3:56highlight, and we want to put at the top
3:58of the list. I saw you working on the
4:00Vince brothers' case. Yes. Yes. So, I I
4:03know that there's no decision at this
4:04point.
4:05>> Well, there is one. Okay, what They they
4:06granted the decision in the Vince case
4:08that that she saw him out if you if you
4:09uh
4:10know or don't know,
4:12two white brothers from Wisconsin were
4:16wrongfully convicted and spent 27 years
4:18in prison for the rape and the murder
4:20and the kidnapping of a of a bar um
4:24um you know, bartender, right? They
4:26ended up doing DNA testing, um exhuming
4:29the body of the person who actually did
4:31it and was a serial rapist, and they
4:33cleared these men. But when they came
4:35home, they came home past the age of
4:38retirement, and literally there's a
4:40statute in Wisconsin that no matter how
4:42many years you've spent in prison, the
4:44maximum you will get is $25,000, right?
4:47So, you have to petition the legislators
4:49and make an argument and say, "Look,
4:51this is why they deserve more money."
4:53They did not make a decision up until
4:55like a month ago, or about 3 weeks ago,
4:58and they agreed to pay these men a
4:59million dollars plus the 25,000.
5:02And it's it's something that they
5:03desperately needed. Yeah, that's that's
5:05like a
5:06That's amazing, but when you get
5:07involved in these cases like this,
5:09right? Even though you know that there's
5:10a wrong because of the way the system is
5:11set up,
5:12how do you kind of save yourself from
5:14like if there is disappointment at the
5:16end? And cuz, you know, Yeah, it's it's
5:1750/50. It's continued therapy. Like I
5:19still go to therapy right now to this
5:21day.
5:22Um you know, because I have to balance
5:23my emotions. No matter what, the
5:25tentacles of when you come in contact
5:27with this system that we have in the
5:29United States, the tentacles of that
5:31contact will always reach you through
5:32life. And the only way you can maintain
5:34that balance is with constant therapy.
5:36And so, I encourage therapy. I do it
5:38myself because there are there are
5:41we we we take it on the chin a lot.
5:43That's right. Um Lauren, and so we have
5:45to find a way to continue to get up off
5:47the mat. And we who who are off the mat
5:50need to find a way to keep extending our
5:52palm and pulling people up with us. And
5:54that was a historic uh amount that they
5:55were awarded in Wisconsin.
5:56>> Yeah. Yeah, it was. It was a it was a it
5:58was an amount where it's been it's been
6:01met before, but like only twice. Okay.
6:03Right? So, they don't they don't
6:04necessarily give it out. And right now
6:06there's a there's a bill on the floor
6:08right now to make it
6:10um you know, a law that you will get
6:12$50,000 a year not having to go through
6:15what they went through and hold on and
6:16wait and hope. Yeah. I I agree with you
6:18on therapy, you know, I'm a big, you
6:19know, proponent of therapy myself, man.
6:21And I always say, you know, healed
6:22people healed people will help heal
6:24people. No doubt.
6:25>> Hurt people will continue to hurt hurt
6:27people. Absolutely. Um in my journey
6:29from
6:30Listen, my journey through mental health
6:31wasn't easy, man. I I thought I was
6:33going to a damn fish fry. My mama and
6:34aunties was like, "Man, baby, look, we
6:36need you to like
6:37>> to see the lady. Yeah, we need you to
6:38let it out. You know, we not we not And
6:40I think that in our community, we we are
6:42we are we reject it because we think
6:45it's a sign of weakness cuz you like,
6:46"Oh, man, they crazy. He going to see
6:48this and going to see that." But for me,
6:50I was on autopilot when I got out cuz
6:52all of my guys,
6:54man, they wasn't turning up no more.
6:55They had kids. They had careers. So, I
6:58thought I could work 24 hours a day to
7:01catch up for almost a decade that was
7:03taken, and it wasn't mentally healthy
7:05for me. So, going through that, I'm
7:08understanding now that that that the
7:10real how I look at this when it comes to
7:12my mental health is
7:14these are moments of decompression.
7:16And sometimes, man, you have to go and
7:18decompress so that way you can have the
7:19right state of mind to respond to all
7:22the stresses that the world has to offer
7:24each and every day. I got to get you on
7:26my you know, you know I do the mental
7:27welfare expo every year.
7:28>> I do. Shaka was telling me about that.
7:29He was like, "Man, make sure you talk
7:31about that so you can get on with that."
7:32But I was like, "For sure."
7:33>> We We going Next year we going to do I
7:35want to do three or four cities next
7:36year. So, I definitely need you there.
7:38But you got a memoir Redeeming Justice,
7:40right? And the subtitle is from
7:42defendant to defender. Yes. What was the
7:44hardest chapter to write emotionally,
7:47and what did you learn about yourself
7:48when you was putting your story on
7:49paper? So, it took me 3 years to to to
7:52write the book. And and part of the
7:54reason why it took me those 3 years is
7:55because
7:57I wanted to read all of the books of
7:58people with stories of wrongful
8:00conviction because I wanted it to be
8:03Honestly, I wanted it to be um
8:05Man, how I wanted it to be a salute to
8:07my mom and my aunts, man. They didn't
8:08have to hold me down
8:11like that. But they did. So, when I
8:13write it and when you look at the book,
8:15you think it's a wrongful conviction,
8:16but but if you look at the first
8:18opening, it's a dedication to my aunts
8:20who Sugar, Honey, and Peaches. Look, I'm
8:22from Chicago. Don't don't don't You know
8:24what I
8:25I send a shout-out to them because
8:27man, they did stuff like keep me alive
8:29when I wanted to die in that boy. I
8:31would get a a a letter with a verse
8:34every day from one of them because they
8:36told me, "Baby, look, we're going to
8:38acknowledge that they've incarcerated
8:40your body, but we will never let them
8:41imprison your mind." And so, I wrote
8:44this story from a perspective of not
8:46just what the person goes through while
8:47they're in prison, what does the family
8:49go through? Cuz my mama went from Man,
8:51listen, my mother was a big hat-wearing,
8:54peppermint-passing, front-row church.
8:56But when I went through this, she got
8:57tired of answering the question,
8:59"Charlamagne, what happened to Gerald?
9:01Where he at?" You know what I mean? It
9:02became hard for her. And so, I wanted to
9:05send a shout-out to her, and then also
9:07continue to pay homage to what I'm doing
9:08in life right now.
9:10Wait.
9:11Yeah. When you talk about like your mom
9:12and your aunt, right? And you said that
9:14they was like, "Oh, you got to go see
9:15the lady."
9:16>> Mhm. Uh when you're helping cuz I mean,
9:19you get people the justice that they
9:21deserve, right? But a lot of times they
9:23don't identify that they have issues
9:24that they need to deal with. So, now
9:26you're that person in their life. When
9:28you're doing that, like how easy or how
9:30hard is it to tell somebody, "Hey, Yeah.
9:32you need to go get some help. Like we
9:34going to figure out the job and the
9:35state, but you need to go get some help
9:36because you you just trying to live your
9:38life."
9:39>> It's a difficult conversation, but I can
9:40I can use a story that I just had. So, I
9:42got a client in Chicago, guy by the name
9:45of Shaquille Williams. Um he was
9:47wrongfully arrested for a murder that
9:49they knew he didn't commit. So, we we
9:51are going through the suit, and one of
9:53the toughest things about a a suit is a
9:55deposition because you get to you get
9:57peppered with questions and so he's
9:59being asked these questions that are
10:01emotionally triggering to him where, you
10:03know, he lost his mom while he was
10:05locked up. He now has a wife and he I
10:09have to explain to him and and encourage
10:11him that you have to keep going to
10:13therapy because there are situations
10:15where when someone gets out of a place
10:17like a system like we have, you have to
10:19learn how to not treat your wife like
10:21your celly. Mhm. And that's a difficult
10:23thing to do and you should never want to
10:25do it alone. So what I try to do is live
10:27my life and say, "Look, what I've done
10:29what I've done to make it more easier
10:31for guys to be receptive." These are
10:32some hard dudes who think that, you
10:34know, they can't show a sign of
10:36weakness. So if I'm telling them that I
10:37don't went through and did this time and
10:39I don't walk the same hard tears you
10:40have but I still revert back to therapy
10:43because it is it has helped me tie my
10:45shoes in a race that is life. Ooh.
10:49Ooh, I've heard you say the criminal
10:50justice system is rigged. Yeah.
10:52>> And that justice is for sale. So when
10:54you look at
10:55the current system, what are the top two
10:56or three pressure points that most
10:58clearly show you how like money and race
11:01still determine these outcomes? Uh look
11:02at what we got going on right now, man.
11:04Like just look at what we got what we
11:05got going. We we have we have a
11:08system that
11:10it it depends on who you know and what
11:11you have, right? And it will determine
11:14your result. We are seeing right now
11:16our justice department, you know, being
11:18used in such a way that is scary but
11:20also being used in a way that we must
11:22ask ourselves like why they weren't
11:25doing this for us. You know what I mean?
11:27Like why why we
11:28Why we weren't getting this, right? So I
11:30think that the low hanging fruit is
11:33this.
11:34We we must find a way
11:36to step in where there are clear gaps in
11:39our system and there are wealth gaps
11:41that determine a whole lot of the
11:43sentences and stuff like that. We need
11:45to get as loud as we can for Laquisha as
11:49we do for Bryant. You get what I'm
11:52saying? And and and I think that
11:55I I really do believe that our way of
11:57fixing fixing the system itself and
12:00Angela Rye and a lot of other other of
12:01my colleagues say the same thing, we
12:03have to focus in the individual states,
12:05right? That's where we have to focus at.
12:07But once we start to work together in
12:10these individual states, I think that we
12:11must then be able to link arms and start
12:14to
12:15petition the change that can make it up
12:16to the Supreme Court to make that
12:18governmental change that will affect the
12:20United States in the in its all in its
12:22entirety. So in short, what we need to
12:25do is the people who are closest to the
12:28fire
12:29usually know how to put it out but
12:31they're the furthest from the water
12:32holes. We need to find a way to feed the
12:35water holes to the people who are on the
12:36ground, the activists, the people who
12:38are going to the courtrooms, the people
12:40who can tell you, "Look, don't vote for
12:42this judge, vote for that judge because
12:43this judge will make the change."
12:45However we can go back and and and and
12:47make sure that our vote counts. We have
12:50to be educated in order to do it but
12:52that is what we have to do in order to
12:53start to tinker away at this mighty
12:56mighty system. I wanted to ask you about
12:57this. That's why I got up because you
12:59the the track you're on is I want to
13:01stay on this track. What did you think,
13:02man? Cuz this really really disappointed
13:04me when I saw our good brother My son
13:07>> And that's my dog, too.
13:08>> front page of the New York Post labeled
13:10as a crime boss because Jaron Madison
13:13Yeah.
13:13>> doing what you're saying people should
13:15do. He's going to get somebody who's
13:16been through the system Yeah. who's
13:18reformed Absolutely.
13:19>> put them in place on the public safety
13:21committee. I don't think there's a
13:22better representative to have than
13:24somebody like a My son. And for him to
13:25be demonized like this, how did that
13:27make you feel, man?
13:28>> look it it it I felt attacked. I felt
13:30attacked with that brother and and I
13:31know him. Like, you know what I'm
13:32saying? Me and me and me and we just
13:34talked about a case I have in New Jersey
13:36a a few, you know, weeks ago. The case
13:38is Raheem Bryant, you can look at it.
13:40The kid was shot in the back of the
13:41neck. We got a excessive excessive
13:44you know, force suit going but I was
13:46just rotating with that brother. So when
13:47I looked at that and I saw it it came up
13:49on my timeline and I immediately felt
13:52attacked. You know what I'm saying? Like
13:53as if it was me and I think we all
13:54should have that type of response. And
13:56I'll just say this for anyone who's
13:58questioning, you know, this move, right?
14:01When we we just came through the
14:02pandemic, right? And we got through the
14:04pandemic through vaccines, right? So the
14:07vaccines are actually what? The virus
14:11that is turned into an antibody, right?
14:13And we inject it in ourselves as a
14:14defense mechanism.
14:16If this brother, which I know he will
14:19do, with his his experience being in
14:22this position, he is a voice that is the
14:24closest thing to the problems that we
14:26have to be able to provide us a
14:28solution. Why would we not want that?
14:30Word up. If we if we have a president
14:32right now who is the president and he's
14:35been convicted of something, why can't
14:37we have a brother like this and more
14:38sisters like this in positions where
14:40they can say, "Look, I know what it's
14:42like, right, to be at home, not have
14:45child care and have to not be able to
14:47work." So that way they can provide the
14:49solution. You want us to all come off
14:50barricading all these dumbass arguments
14:52that you hear about, "Well, black people
14:53on snap. They on this, they on that."
14:55Well, why don't you put the people who
14:56have had the experience and why they had
14:58to be on snap in position to be able to
15:01provide solutions so that we can snap
15:03snap the [ __ ] out of here if that's what
15:04you really want to do. Word. That's it.
15:06This just bothers me, man, when I see a
15:08brother
15:09you know, who went to prison what what
15:10he got convicted in like '99? '99.
15:12>> Like 19, 20 years old
15:14>> can't live that down.
15:16>> You've You've You've been a model
15:17citizen since you've been home and soon
15:19as something like this happens, you get
15:21labeled a crime boss.
15:22>> A crime boss.
15:23>> Is this not libel? I mean listen, what I
15:25would do is this.
15:26And I'm and I'm offering this for this
15:28brother if he want. I would strongly
15:29send him a letter, you know, and the
15:31letter would be a cease and desist. It
15:33would also, you know, give the real
15:35facts cuz that brother ain't never been
15:36no crime boss. You understand? But you
15:38look, let me tell you how scary this is
15:40and what they did to him and this is
15:41what this reminded me of.
15:43So
15:44we we had the RICO that was made famous
15:47by Junior Judy Allen in New York
15:50taking down and tackling the the mob
15:51problem, right?
15:53Shortly after his success in doing that,
15:55who do you think became the target of
15:56the RICO? Black people. Exactly. Inside
15:59of neighborhoods that you and I know
16:01where
16:02guys were couch surfing but all of a
16:04sudden when they got to federal court,
16:05they were named to be the the the the
16:07the federal, you know,
16:09guy who did everything and they're the
16:11kingpin and all of that to be able to
16:13slam slander us and continue to keep us
16:15in the historical depiction that has
16:17hindered black men forever. Mhm. That's
16:19exactly what I thought about when I saw
16:21it.
16:21>> Yeah.
16:23Absolutely. Um and not it's not
16:26switching gears. I guess it's kind of in
16:27the same vein. There was a case that I
16:29know that you were involved in as well,
16:31the Waverly case.
16:31>> Yes. Yes. I thought we talking about
16:34like people not being able to live down
16:35what people title you as. So talk a bit
16:38about that case and how
16:39>> Yeah. those brothers were found not
16:42guilty but
16:43>> still sitting and then you had to fight
16:45like explain a little bit cuz it when I
16:47read it I'm like this makes no sense
16:48whatsoever. How
16:49>> of them. do you still have to stick with
16:51that the rest of your life?
16:52>> And it's a good outcome to that, too. So
16:53I'm glad you brought that up. And let me
16:54also send a shout out to to Mika Mallory
16:56and also My son. That's
16:58That's That's where I first became in
17:00contact with them because they saw my
17:02push on that story and they gave me a
17:03platform to tell that story at a at a
17:05larger place.
17:05>> the Waverly case? I didn't know that.
17:07That was It helped because we had to get
17:09them out on
17:10a presidential commutation. So here
17:12here's what happened in this case. Two
17:13brothers were down in Waverly, Virginia
17:15um
17:16and
17:17Waverly, Virginia has a dirty history.
17:19They are one of the last known towns to
17:22do a public open lynching, right? So
17:25that's the atmosphere in which these
17:26guys are
17:28charged with the murder of a police
17:29officer
17:31and
17:32you know, they ain't got no money.
17:35Ain't ain't a lot of platforms and and
17:37and stuff down. Ain't a lot of exposure.
17:38This is 1998.
17:40>> Mhm. So they are talked into taking
17:43plea deals that should already signal to
17:44you all this is some [ __ ] right? So
17:47they plead to
17:49Ferron accessory after the fact and
17:52Terrence plead to a manslaughter charge
17:55in this case even though there was
17:56nothing to no evidence at all but they
17:58were basically told by their their
18:00attorney, "Look, man,
18:02if you get the death penalty, which they
18:04were facing,
18:05ain't no way out of that. Even if you
18:07did, you know, if you did not do it, you
18:09can get the death penalty. People get
18:11locked up and go to jail for stuff they
18:12didn't do all all the time." So they
18:13took these plea deals. When they took
18:15the plea deals, they thought they were
18:17just going to have to do 5 years and the
18:18other one had, you know, time released.
18:20The feds came around and indicted them
18:23as kingpins of being drug dealers and
18:26they said the murder was a result of
18:28them being kingpins, right?
18:29>> Damn. And they were able to retry them
18:32in federal court. They go to federal
18:34court. They're found not guilty of the
18:38murder of this police officer but
18:40they're found guilty of selling drugs
18:43and they were sentenced to life in
18:44prison as an enhancement based on their
18:47guilty pleas in state court.
18:50So as a result, they're in federal
18:52prison for 20-something plus years not
18:54because they're found guilty of killing
18:56the officer but because they plead
18:57guilty to save their life and their life
19:00was still taken from them. It is one of
19:02the most insane stories ever. We went to
19:04the last hour of
19:06of Biden's presidency and he finally
19:10signed a commutation to commute their
19:12sentence. They came home and they've
19:14discharged off of off of their their
19:16federal papers and they're released and
19:18we just did an event with them and we're
19:21working on a documentary to tell their
19:22story because we're trying to change the
19:24law. You should not be able to be found
19:25not guilty but still sentenced to life
19:28based on allegations in in in other
19:30matters. It's just ridiculous.
19:32>> How did y'all get the Biden
19:32administration to move cuz they weren't
19:34they weren't moving on nothing? Man,
19:36Charlamagne, when I tell you the
19:38squeakiest wheel get the oil, man, I was
19:40squeakier than a [ __ ] Like I
19:41just I wouldn't stop, man. I went around
19:43and I thankfully I got the support of
19:46some some Virginia
19:48politicians and legislators, man. We
19:49talking about Tim Kaine and and a bunch
19:52of folks who it took me nine years to
19:54get them out. So, it wasn't like it was
19:56no short thing. So, they knew who I was
19:58and I just think I think it was a matter
19:59of me being constant, me being
20:01persistent, and and and and God opening
20:04them doors to be honest with you.
20:05Absolutely. How do you determine whether
20:07or not a potential client is actually
20:09innocent? Sometimes you just got to go
20:10through it to find out, man. And I ain't
20:12going to lie to you. Look, I didn't
20:13been, you know, thousands of dollars in,
20:15hours and hours and hours in, only for
20:18DNA results to come back and they
20:20weren't telling me the truth.
20:21But, let me say this.
20:24Man, that can't stop us from sending the
20:25elevator back down. That can't keep us
20:27from extending our palms, man, because
20:29there are some innocent brothers and
20:31over-sentenced sisters and and brothers
20:33who deserve our help. They need our
20:34help. And so, if I get one out of 10,
20:37I'll take that one. I mean, that's how
20:39important it is to our culture, man,
20:40that we make sure we don't have a bad
20:42experience that makes us close the door
20:44to everybody. My question for you,
20:47when I At my last job, I used to do
20:48these stories. Whenever we would hear
20:49about like Kim Kardashian or like, you
20:52know, just any of the attorneys she was
20:53working with getting involved or
20:55celebrities in general would speak out
20:56about people needing to be put back in
20:58front of a judge because something was
20:59done wrong in the legal system.
21:02There would be the other side, the
21:03families of these people who thought,
21:06"Okay, I finally have peace. The case is
21:08solved. Now we can rest." And then this
21:09comes back up and it kind of opens up a
21:11door back for them, right? How do you as
21:13an attorney deal with that because you
21:15want justice for the people who are
21:16wronged in the justice system, but then
21:18it's opening up a whole new like world
21:20of like chaos for this family connected
21:22to the person who was
21:25harmed. Here's what we do in our
21:26practice and what we do at at Life After
21:28Justice. So, after we do the full
21:30investigation,
21:32we present it to the the victim's family
21:34as well because we deserve that they we
21:35we think they deserve
21:37to have full closure, not the closure
21:40that they have been forced to get. So,
21:43that case of Terrance and Ferron,
21:45I took the complete and total
21:47investigation to the family of the
21:50officer. And at one point, his daughter
21:52was like, "Look,
21:54I had my attorney read this and I'm
21:56going to provide you with a letter that
21:58says I want complete and total
22:00transparency. I want to know what
22:01happened to my father." That letter went
22:03a long way in helping. And so, I think
22:05that that is a way that that [snorts]
22:07you can do it. I think it I think it's
22:08deserving, right? Because you're opening
22:10up wounds and someone tragically lost
22:12their life in situations like that. I
22:13think we have to be respectful and
22:15mindful of everyone's feelings.
22:17I agree.
22:17>> I I want to talk about, you know, the
22:19prison library,
22:21I read where you started reading case
22:23law in the prison library. Yeah. And
22:25helping other guys with their cases. We
22:26always hear about that. Yeah. But, and
22:29you did that before you ever set foot in
22:30the law school classroom. How did that
22:31prison law school shape you differently
22:33than a traditional legal education? It I
22:35think what it did for me is
22:38personally,
22:39it helped me to to better understand my
22:42clients and and listen also. And I think
22:44that as an attorney, I think sometimes,
22:46man, we can just be like, "I know what
22:48I'm doing" and stuff like that. I think
22:50what it did for me is it made me
22:51understand that just as important as
22:53important as it is winning the case, and
22:56you also need to personalize yourself
22:57and and and learn from your clients and
22:59stuff like that. And so, I think that
23:01I'm sitting across from guys who were,
23:03you know, rightfully convicted,
23:04wrongfully convicted, and I'm helping
23:05them out. And I think what it what it
23:07helped me do was master become a master
23:10class of the client communications that
23:11is necessary to be victorious in these
23:13tough cases.
23:16You know what I think about, and this is
23:19a lot of times I think about
23:21even people who were locked up, right,
23:23that may actually have done what they
23:26did and they need like some form of like
23:28rehabilitation.
23:29>> Yeah. Are we ever going to figure out a
23:31system that like actually rehabilitates
23:33people, but also balances punishment?
23:35Because I do think there is a form of
23:37punishment needed. But when it's your
23:38family member, you don't feel like that.
23:39But
23:40>> Yeah. realistically, like it's like the
23:41conversation we have around like defund
23:43the police and what it's actually
23:44supposed to mean and what people think
23:45we're saying. And you need police, but
23:47you need them to like be human. Here's
23:50the thing.
23:51Why why can't we just advance like we've
23:53advanced in technology, man? And we
23:55advanced in technology from learning,
23:57right? We learn from our mistakes, we
23:59got better. You used to have to, you
24:00know, you remember the phone with the
24:01cord, man? My mama had a 50-extension
24:03cord. We used to walk around the house.
24:05We go to the basement with that phone.
24:06We've advanced from that. So, it's like,
24:08why can't we advance in these things
24:10that affect our our lives as much as
24:12this criminal system does? And I'll tell
24:14you in my perspective,
24:16so, this is what I think is the problem.
24:18We have an adversarial system. And I
24:20don't care if it's a spitball contest or
24:22a pencil-popping contest, you going to
24:24want to win, right? When you win this
24:25contest. I'll give you an example of
24:27what I mean by that. I did a study
24:29abroad in London cuz I was trying to get
24:31through law school and the only way you
24:32can get like a bunch of credits was if
24:34you did this this study abroad. So, I
24:36went over there, I spent about 4 weeks
24:37and and the assignment was, "You need to
24:39go to their criminal system, see what's
24:41there, and write a paper on what you
24:43think would work in our system." So,
24:45when I got there and you sit up in the
24:47top, you know, of this of this thing
24:49called the the Old Bailey or whatever it
24:50is, right? And you look down at the the
24:53barristers who are both men and women
24:55and they're doing these arguments. And I
24:57remember
24:58uh this this lady, man, she was kicking
25:00man, she was kicking this dude butt up
25:02in there, right? With the argument that
25:04she had and it was it was involving a
25:06sister to the subject. It was involving
25:07actually a rape case, right? And then I
25:10seen her come back like 3 days later and
25:12now she was actually defending a
25:16a guy who was accused of a rape with the
25:18same passion and the same just vigorous
25:21like this is my client. What I walked
25:23away from with that is, you know what?
25:26That's how they're able to preserve the
25:28sympathy and empathy that is missing out
25:30of our system.
25:31We just want to win as defense
25:33attorneys. We just want to win as
25:35prosecutors. And sometimes when that
25:37happens, the thing that is lost is
25:39justice. But it's Ho- hold on. Okay. I
25:42was just going to say it's been like
25:43that for like like this whole thing and
25:46like breaking this whole system. When
25:47people have that conversation, I'm like,
25:48it's been like this for so many years.
25:50Like it's so far beyond us. So, like
25:52sometimes I I wonder why do we believe
25:55that
25:56it's going to just be able to change and
25:58like you'll be able to change even
25:59people's spirit to not want to just win
26:01a case. Man, we got to get people closer
26:03to to what is really happening, you
26:05know? And that's going to make people
26:07want to change. Mhm. I think that, you
26:10know, un- until it until Trump was
26:13actually prosecuted by the system, I I
26:15don't you think he had a problem with
26:16the system? You know what I mean? No,
26:18until he was prosecuted by then he had a
26:20problem with the system, right? So, I
26:22think that I still don't think he has a
26:24problem with how it does certain people,
26:25meaning black and brown people. Yeah,
26:27that's true, too. And but look, I'll
26:28tell you his privilege he probably feel
26:29like shouldn't be punished. Yeah, but
26:30see cuz his privilege when he
26:31encountered the system is a lot
26:32different. And a lot of times,
26:34>> Yeah. you got people who create do these
26:36like, you know, certain collar crimes
26:37and they're put in certain facilities.
26:39Yeah, so different than what we know.
26:41Like when I have a family member going
26:43to prison, it's a different experience.
26:45So, even their close experience doesn't
26:48change how they view things cuz it's
26:50different for them.
26:51>> It My opinion, right? It is different
26:54for them, but I but I I use something my
26:56my grandfather used to use which is,
26:57man, you know, look, sometimes people
26:59don't understand [ __ ] till that [ __ ] on
27:00the bottom of their shoe, right? And
27:02that's that's really one of them things
27:04where it's like we need our leaders, and
27:06I'm not going to identify and point out
27:08no names. We need our leaders, man, to
27:10to start to make the the quick, rapid
27:13change that we're seeing right now with
27:15this current administration, man. Like
27:17legitly. I I don't I don't think they
27:19have the courage to do it.
27:20>> Why why
27:21even if they get back in position with
27:23all the tools at their disposal, I don't
27:25think they got the courage to Well, I'll
27:26just say this. Listen. Um don't do the
27:28job then. You know what I mean? Like if
27:30you don't have the courage to do what's
27:31necessary, don't do the job. Like we
27:32need y'all. Like legitly, man. We we we
27:35need y'all. Especially as an attorney in
27:36court every day, man, I'm seeing every
27:38day how slight changes could change the
27:40system. Like for example, why do public
27:42defenders have the budget of a school
27:46teacher, but the caseload of an entire
27:48administration? It ain't fair.
27:51You know what I mean? Like so, why can't
27:52we come in and just change that system
27:53alone? 90% of the public relies on
27:57public defense. Like public defenders or
27:59different organizations like that. So,
28:01it's like, man, if you want to change
28:02this system, why can't we change the
28:04budget to that? If you look at the pie
28:05chart in the Department of Justice, we
28:08spend
28:09the majority of that on what they call
28:11policing, right? That's that's locking
28:13people up. That's building new prisons.
28:15We got a small You can't even see that
28:17dot on what they spend on reintegration
28:19and mental health care. So, it's like,
28:20why not just start there? And you you
28:22tell me if it works. I'll give you
28:23another example.
28:25We seen
28:27the war on drugs
28:29create mass incarceration. There was
28:31billions of dollars that was spent on
28:33the war on [clears throat] drugs. Let me
28:34see a war on
28:36child care. Let me see a war on the
28:38school systems in Shy Town where I'm
28:40from. Let me see a war on putting them
28:43jobs back that are in those areas,
28:44replacing those liquor stores with those
28:46jobs. And you talk to me in 10 years and
28:48you tell me if that ain't produced a
28:50better product. Man, you said something
28:52earlier when you was talking about like
28:53the prosecutors, man, it made me think
28:54like you you stood on
28:56both sides, right? The defendant and a
28:59a defense attorney. What's one thing you
29:01wish every prosecutor, judge, and cop
29:04had to experience or learn before
29:06they're allowed to hold that kind of
29:08power over somebody's life? Man, I I
29:10really wish they can experience
29:12a a day in prison
29:14and a and a day with the family members
29:16at home who have their loved ones in
29:18prison.
29:19Right? Because you talking about
29:21astronomical phone calls. Prisons ain't
29:23placed in the city. They at the They in
29:25Appalachia somewhere, right? You know
29:26what I'm saying? You got to drive to
29:27Clinton Correctional. You ever went to
29:29Clinton?
29:30I got a couple clients up there, man.
29:31You you that you might as well block out
29:33your calendar for that day, right? And
29:34and hope everything work out. So, it's
29:36like that that part of it, in my
29:39opinion, is again, they need to
29:41experience it
29:43just to have that sympathy and empathy,
29:46man.
29:46>> [clears throat]
29:47>> Everything
29:48doesn't require a hammer.
29:50You understand what I'm saying? Like and
29:52that's that just seems like what happens
29:54when you get us in front of one of these
29:56systems, man. We all look like nails to
29:58them.
30:00For people who listen to man who never
30:02see the inside of a courtroom beyond
30:04jury duty, what's one specific action
30:05they can take, you know, right now that
30:08actually moves the needle on wrongful
30:09convictions and criminal justice reform
30:11in in their own city? Pay attention,
30:13man. Like legitly, man, if you going to
30:15be there and you going to show up and
30:15and also listen, in general,
30:18black folks show up to jury duty. Come
30:20on, y'all. Like legitly, man, like we we
30:22we have to show up to jury duty. Like
30:24you just don't know how many jury pools
30:26in the northern district of Illinois
30:27where I'm doing a wrongful conviction
30:29case and I ain't got not nothing but one
30:31or two of us in there and then we trying
30:33to get about that [ __ ] Like
30:34like we need y'all, man. We we Listen,
30:36look.
30:37Our turn up
30:39cannot outweigh our turnout.
30:41Ooh. Like legitly.
30:42>> I like that. So so for me and my
30:44perspective, I like to have a good time,
30:46too, man, but man, when it's time to
30:48turn when it's time to turn out, we got
30:49to turn out. Please show up to jury
30:51duty, y'all. Y'all y'all You just don't
30:53know man, if if we get a jury pool that
30:56is that is diverse, right? We now
30:59control a lot of the outcomes, man. Show
31:01up. Show up if you can be there, be
31:03there, right? I'll be like, man,
31:05Charlamagne, I'll be trying to get
31:06people eye contact when they be on the
31:08jury pool. Like, please [laughter]
31:09please don't make no It's going to stand
31:11up and say you got a baby. Like like
31:12come on. But that's that's what we need
31:14because we present the case, but the
31:16jury makes a decision. We need black and
31:19brown folk. And let me make sure that
31:20I'm clarifying that. Not just black
31:22folk, black and brown folk. Cuz we ain't
31:24the minority if we link up. You know
31:26what I'm saying? So I that's what we
31:28need. Show up to jury duty. That's it.
31:30And then pay attention to that. Take
31:31notes and stuff like that. Be active in
31:33your participation because what your
31:35what your vote counts for right there in
31:38that moment is critical to the to the
31:40lives of a lot of my clients and a lot
31:41of lawyers' clients. What gives you hope
31:43that meaningful justice reform is
31:46actually possible?
31:47Man, the cases, man. I just look at the
31:49cases and I and I and I and I also am
31:52just a person who wants to be hopeful. I
31:53have to be, right? Going through what I
31:56went through, man, I'm a prayerful
31:57person. I'm a I'm I'm a I'm a hopeful
31:59person. And I also
32:01get an opportunity to look at the the
32:03the babies that we have that are coming
32:04up right now, man, and I'm I'm I'm
32:06afraid, y'all. I ain't going to even
32:07lie. You know, when I'm looking and
32:08talking to these mothers and fathers in
32:10these courtrooms,
32:12I believe that it's desensitizing our
32:13babies to believe that the criminal
32:15system is just a part of our lives. And
32:17some kids never experienced that only in
32:19a movie. And I and I, you know, I I give
32:21you another example of of of
32:24People ask me, man, what's the what's
32:25the toughest thing you ever seen in
32:26prison? And they expect me to say a
32:28knife fight or something like that. Man,
32:29I'll tell you the toughest thing that
32:31I've ever seen in this prison.
32:33So, I'm playing ball on the first couple
32:35years that I get to to Green Bay
32:37Correctional. And Green Bay
32:38Correctional, Wisconsin, was was is is
32:41is a is a tough place, okay?
32:44And right now they are they are stabbing
32:45each other up in there and this is it
32:46doesn't make any sense what's going on
32:48with the violence. So,
32:50I'm passing time out playing basketball
32:53and you know, everybody picking their
32:54squad. Everybody got a nickname. And I'm
32:56hearing,
32:57you know, these guys on the other team
32:59and they like, G Pops,
33:01Old Man, and um G Son, right? I'm just
33:05thinking they they all from the same
33:06block. You know what I'm saying? I ain't
33:07no I ain't no at all. It wasn't until I
33:09got in the visiting room
33:11and I was visiting my mama who came up
33:12to see me from Chicago and I'm in the
33:14visiting room and I didn't realize, man,
33:18this was three generations, man. This
33:19was a grandfather,
33:22a father, and his son.
33:24But what really messed me up was
33:27three two women came to see him with
33:29three kids
33:30and there was a little girl with him.
33:32And man,
33:33the little girl came through the the
33:35metal detector and raised her arm
33:38to be wanded cuz she was looking at her
33:40mama and grandmama be wanded coming to
33:43the prison. You don't wand a kids
33:46anything like that, man. Like you you
33:47know, you you
33:48This a baby. What what she doing at
33:52three, four years old
33:53knowing that she supposed to stick arms
33:55up in the air?
33:56And so I I said, man, look, we we got to
33:59address this. We we need to implement
34:01inside our schools of psychology
34:03sections that address
34:05specifically
34:07people who have encountered the system,
34:09whether it be family members or whether
34:10it be people who are there in order to
34:12make some real real real change. That
34:14that is the thing that I will never
34:16forget and that happened almost 20-some
34:18years ago.
34:19But I never forget it. Damn. Can you
34:21talk about the the importance of pro
34:23bono work? Oh, look. Cuz I know like
34:26that that's a part of the reason why
34:28even with your situation, right?
34:29>> Yes. The Innocence Project got me out.
34:32It's important that that we donate to
34:34the right organizations that are doing
34:37the work on the ground. And
34:39look, man, it's tough. You you
34:41understand what I'm saying? There's a
34:41lot of organizations, a lot of people
34:43doing the same work, but we we our
34:45system
34:47There are people once you get convicted,
34:48you on your own. As a matter of fact,
34:50not people, everybody. Once you get get
34:52convicted and that first appeal is over
34:54with, you're on your own, right? So,
34:56there are people who will never have an
34:57opportunity to present their case of
34:59innocence not because they're not
35:01innocent, but because there's no money
35:02around to do it. So, we have to donate
35:04to organizations like my organization,
35:06Life After Justice. People who are doing
35:08the work and taking on cases pro bono to
35:10be able to to to really get them the
35:13help that they need. We it to do this,
35:16right? Because there are there are no
35:18The cavalry ain't coming. We the
35:20cavalry. We got to save ourselves. Word
35:22up.
35:23Word up. That's it. Listen, man, Jarod
35:25Adams, his book Redeeming Justice from
35:29Defendant to Defender, My Fight for
35:30Equity on Both Sides of a Broken System
35:32is available everywhere you buy books
35:34now. Thank you, man. How can we continue
35:36to support your work? I know Life After
35:37Justice What's the what's the website?
35:38But also the website is is
35:40jarodadamslaw.com. Life After
35:42Justice.org is the website.
35:45And y'all can support by by by sharing
35:47the story, man. Like honestly,
35:48Charlamagne, listen,
35:50if we going to have a donkey of the day,
35:51let's do a king or queen of the day.
35:53Word. You know what I'm saying?
35:54[laughter]
35:54Straight up. Man, I love y'all. Thank
35:56y'all for having me
35:56>> crowning you right now. I appreciate
35:58you, brother. I really do, man. I really
36:00do. It's Jarod Adams. It's The Breakfast
36:02Club.
36:07You going to finish or y'all done?

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