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James Dooley - How to Make MILLIONS with Rank and Rent SEO — Transcript

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0:00All right, everyone. Welcome back to
0:01another sirlinksallot.com podcast. We're
0:03here today with Mr. James Dooley. How
0:05are you doing today, sir?
0:07I'm all good. Thank you very much.
0:09Awesome. How are you doing today, Nick?
0:11I cannot complain. Pretty excited about
0:14getting to talk to the party master of
0:16SEO. I've heard all about for all these
0:19years. I'm excited about meeting you out
0:20in
0:21Chiang Mai for sure, but thanks for
0:23being on the podcast. Really excited
0:24about this. Yeah, it's a pleasure to be
0:26on.
0:27I've followed you two guys for quite a
0:28long time and sirlinksallot, so Awesome.
0:32Um, so yeah, if you guys are unfamiliar
0:35with James, he's the CEO of Promo SEO.
0:39He's also the founder of Fat Rank.
0:41He's a self-proclaimed digital landlord
0:44with 600 or more
0:47websites under his management. And he's
0:49also had big success in the casino and
0:52gambling niche as well. And you might
0:55have also seen him around on a bunch of
0:56other podcasts recently cuz it seems
0:57like you kind of been doing the rounds.
1:01But yeah, did I miss anything important
1:02there?
1:03No, you've kind of got majority of it in
1:05there. I own one or two other service
1:07kind of base businesses as well, but
1:09yeah, that's that's the hooks and crooks
1:11of what I do. And yeah, I'm a bit of a
1:13podcast slag at the moment, so
1:16Awesome. But yeah, glad to have you on.
1:18So yeah, I we really wanted to have you
1:20on because we actually get a lot of
1:22questions in our Facebook group SEO
1:24Round Table
1:26as well as on our YouTube channel and
1:27our live streams about rank and rent.
1:30And I believe Nick has a little bit of
1:31experience with rank and rent, but this
1:32was quite some time ago and I don't have
1:35any experience with it myself. I failed
1:37that at every single time as well. So
1:40rank to rent is not my favorite. I'm
1:41excited to hear some tips and tricks
1:43about this and I know our viewers are
1:45too. Yeah, for sure. We get asked about
1:47it a lot and every time we just have to
1:48pretty much say, "Yeah, we don't really
1:49know much about it, but here's the
1:50things that we kind of do and what we
1:52recommend doing."
1:53But yeah, so it's good to have you on.
1:54We can kind of fill a knowledge gap
1:56there.
1:57But yeah, so I guess to start things
1:58off, could you just briefly describe
2:01what rank and rent is?
2:03Yeah, so rank and rent is where you
2:05build a website, you rank it, and then
2:08rent it out. So you need to try and find
2:11certain industries that you think if you
2:14generated leads for that kind of
2:15business, somebody would want to pay
2:18money to take those leads. It's kind of
2:21one step further than lead generation.
2:24The reason I mean, a lot of time you
2:25start out in lead generation and then
2:27you kind of move it all over to a rank
2:30and rent model.
2:31The main reason for doing that is
2:32because it's predictable income.
2:35So that's kind of why you kind of
2:37progress from building out the site,
2:39doing maybe a cost per lead, and then in
2:41time moving it to a rank and rent model.
2:43Got you. So when when someone rents
2:46their website, what does that actually
2:47mean?
2:49So what it is is that you So what starts
2:52to happen naturally is when you build a
2:54website and it starts ranking and it's
2:57generating inquiries, they
3:00they the client starts to The The hard
3:03part about lead generation is it's it's
3:06almost like doing client SEO.
3:09And you've got a client that's ringing
3:10you up regularly, maybe every other day,
3:13saying, "I've just had an inquiry and
3:16they've not answered the phone, so I
3:17don't want to pay for it." "I've just
3:19had a I've just had an inquiry and it
3:20was one of my competitors." "I've just
3:22had an inquiry and it said that it was
3:24Mickey Mouse." And they're consistently
3:26ringing you. And that's not obviously
3:28all the leads, but generally speaking,
3:30on average, across a lot of different
3:32industries, around 10 to 20% of leads
3:35that you generate online
3:37either they don't answer or they're fake
3:39inquiries. So or or it's someone
3:42spamming them saying, "Do you want to
3:44buy some guest posts from us on the on
3:46the website and stuff like that?" So
3:47they're like, "I don't want to pay for
3:48these leads." And and you're kind of
3:50saying, "You won't. Like, just tell us
3:51what invalids and we'll reimburse you
3:54any money for the invalids."
3:56The issue it starts to be is that
3:59you need to have a sales team to run
4:02lead generation. So when So as you're
4:04running a lead generation team, it's
4:07difficult because you need a large sales
4:10team, like I said, to run it. With a
4:12rank and rent model, what normally
4:13starts to happen is if they're used to
4:16paying on average maybe three, four
4:19thousand pound a month or five, six
4:21thousand pound a month, if you was to
4:23set a fee once you once they've been
4:25with you for a while to say, "Look, on
4:28average you're paying five thousand
4:30pound a month."
4:31What happens if we just do a rank and
4:32rent? We don't kind of log every single
4:35inquiry that happens. You just pay a
4:38flat a flat fee of four thousand pound.
4:42They should be happy because they've
4:43been used to paying five thousand pound
4:45a month.
4:46And and you might say, "Well, why would
4:47you do that model? Like, why if you're
4:50earning five thousand would you knock it
4:51down to four?" Well,
4:53one, you need to give a little bit of
4:55meat on the bone for to make them think,
4:57"Actually, do you know what? This is a
4:59good deal for them." But two, then it's
5:01predictable income for us, so we know
5:03exactly what's happening. They're happy
5:05to rent it out. We don't need the kind
5:07of sales team to keep logging every
5:09single inquiry, checking whether it's
5:11not an invalid or it was a valid kind of
5:12inquiry. And and it just works better
5:15all round. They're happier and actually,
5:18long term, we're happier cuz it's less
5:19management involved. Got you. So do you
5:22actually Do you Do you actually like
5:24edit in like all their like phone
5:25numbers and everything on the website so
5:27they just contact them directly or how
5:28does that How does it all work?
5:29what what we normally do is we'll
5:30normally do like a Twilio number,
5:33CallRail, or Involcom, which is like
5:36where you rent a number. It costs like
5:37$1 a month to rent the number.
5:40It might be a local number to wherever
5:42they're based. So let's say in the UK,
5:44if you're based in Manchester, it's like
5:45an 0161 number. So you'd go and rent an
5:480161 number and then that number then
5:50can redirect either to their office or
5:53to their mobile number, wherever it is
5:56that you want to redirect it.
5:58You don't really want to be putting
6:00their number on just in case something
6:02bad was to happen
6:04where they stop trading or something
6:06like that and you lost that number. And
6:07that's in all these kind of citations
6:09and directories and stuff like that.
6:11You've got ownership of the number that
6:13way. So you But in general, yes, in
6:17time, once they've moved to a rank and
6:19rent model, they've generally been with
6:21us for over 12 months. We've got a good,
6:23trusted relationship with them.
6:25They're happier and we're happier. At
6:27that point, they'll be sending us all
6:29their photos of stuff like job previous
6:31jobs that they've done. They'll be
6:33sending us all the videos of jobs that
6:35they might have done. And sometimes,
6:37yeah, we can use their address. It could
6:39be their office address. It could be
6:40their warehouse address. It could be the
6:42director's address. So we we can put in
6:45a real address on the site, a telephone
6:47number on the site. We can even put some
6:49of their members of staff on like the
6:50meet the team page and stuff like that.
6:52Especially if they've got a LinkedIn
6:54account or a Twitter account. So you're
6:56kind of ticking all the boxes for EAT.
6:59It's real people behind the site. And
7:02yeah, it it works well. And obviously,
7:04they're happy to do it cuz they know
7:05that they're getting exclusivity on the
7:07leads. So
7:09the the clients are
7:11actually really happy with it because
7:12it's a no-brainer for them where they
7:14know after a while that they're going to
7:17make a return on investment of the
7:18rental of the site cuz they've worked
7:20with us for a long time. It's the first
7:23six to 12 months it can be trickier.
7:25Like, so many people come and contact me
7:27and go, "Ah, I tried rank and rent and
7:29it didn't work." And I'm like,
7:31"You can't just go straight into rank
7:33and rent. You need to You need to start
7:34off by doing SEO. Maybe even doing
7:37display ads to start earning a little
7:39bit money off the side. Then you might
7:41progress then into lead generation.
7:44And then after lead generation, then you
7:46can move to rank and rent. Cuz someone's
7:48not going to If someone doesn't know who
7:49you are, so let's say
7:51Nick says that he's he's tried a few
7:53times to do rank and rent. If you go
7:56straight to the model of, "Do you want
7:58to rent my website for a thousand pound
8:00a month?"
8:01And they don't know what traffic level
8:02you're getting. They don't know what
8:03type of inquiries you're getting. It's a
8:06hard sell cuz they don't even know what
8:07they're renting out. Where if you kind
8:09of go down the lead generation model and
8:11they've had the leads, they've converted
8:13a few of the leads, and from there then
8:15they're saying, "Yeah, this works." And
8:18you give them an offer
8:20that's slightly less than what they're
8:21already paying, they're going to go down
8:23the route of saying, "Yes, we're happy
8:25to do that."
8:26And then from there then they start to
8:28they start to put a lot more trust in
8:29you. So they start telling you
8:31basically all the juicy keywords because
8:34too many people are using SEMrush or
8:36Ahrefs for doing the keyword research.
8:40And if you if you're really advanced,
8:42people think, "Oh, well, I'll sort by
8:43CPC on like cost per click on
8:47pay per click and go, 'Oh, these are the
8:48big keywords.'"
8:50But the truth of the matter is, speaking
8:51to the business owner and asking them
8:54what they're best at converting, and one
8:56plumber to the next plumber or one
8:58roofer to the next plumber, they might
9:00be better at converting whether it's
9:02flat roofing or pitched roofing or slate
9:04roofing or blue roofing or brown roofing
9:06or biodiversity roofing, heritage
9:08roofing.
9:09Within just roofing, there's 10
9:11different
9:13sub industries and sub topics. Then one
9:15of them might say, "No, we are no good
9:17at flat roofing. We only do slate
9:20roofing." And this is just one example,
9:21obviously. Um,
9:23so you go down the the the kind of
9:25rabbit hole of, "Right, okay, well,
9:27let's get into doing this." And then
9:28further down the line, you might realize
9:30that the slate roofing that they're
9:32really good at is heritage roofing for
9:34churches. And that's kind of how You
9:37almost go down the route of, "We are the
9:39church roofing experts." It's always a
9:42pitched roof. It's always slate roofing.
9:44Churches have generally got good budget.
9:46And then you go, "Oh, that's great." And
9:49and that's kind of when you start
9:50speaking to these business owners,
9:51they're telling you where the money is.
9:54And then a lot of the time, what the
9:57stuff that they tell you, whether it's
9:59like like I said, heritage roofing and
10:00stuff like that,
10:02you look at it in Google Search Console
10:04or you when it's coming through or you
10:05look at it in Ahrefs and it's quite the
10:08keyword difficulty is relatively easy to
10:10go after. And and they're telling you
10:12that it's a profitable keyword. So, what
10:15what better kind of site and kind of
10:18setup to go after than the stuff that
10:20they're saying that they convert well
10:21for?
10:22Got you. Um so, yeah, so your basic kind
10:25of process is like rank a website,
10:28um maybe start doing some like lead gen,
10:30like actually selling the leads, then
10:32kind of sweeten the deal and turn that
10:34into a rank-to-rent relationship. And
10:38then after that happens, you might act
10:41you might you kind of develop a further
10:43partnership with them and might actually
10:45start putting more of them like on the
10:46website and having more of a
10:48back-and-forth dialogue with things you
10:49can go after and stuff like that. Is
10:51that about right? Yeah, that's that's
10:53exactly right. I mean, further down the
10:54line, what what really starts to happen
10:56is I mean, we've been doing this for
10:58quite a long time, so um
11:00I don't know many who's got a bigger
11:02portfolio than what we have online.
11:04It's only It's only in the UK. We don't
11:06we don't kind of go outside of the UK.
11:08Um I'd be very surprised if there's
11:10anyone in the UK that generates more
11:12inquiries than what we do on a
11:13week-by-week basis.
11:15But, what starts to happen is some of
11:16these business owners then start to want
11:19me to get involved as like an investor
11:22within the company because actually what
11:24starts to happen and and this sounds
11:27probably your first reaction to this
11:28will be well, it's a good problem to
11:30have is we start to generate them more
11:32leads than than what they can deal with.
11:35And you say, well, oh, that's a great
11:37problem.
11:38But, the point is it's still a problem
11:40because if they're not getting back to
11:42these inquiries very quickly,
11:44I'm getting annoyed cuz I'm like I want
11:47them to make certain they're getting the
11:48most out of the leads to make certain
11:49that they're making good profit. So, if
11:52it's taking a while, what we can start
11:54to do is we also own and I've not really
11:55said this on one or two other podcasts.
11:57We also own a large call center. So,
12:00there's times where we could say, well,
12:02look, you train us up on I'm just going
12:05down the road of heritage roofing for
12:06the for this podcast for the sake of it.
12:08So, if we're generating inquiries for
12:10it, you train us up with the general
12:12spiel of what you need, which might be
12:15the size, some photos, and do you have a
12:18budget in mind, right? And just
12:20initially start to get that information
12:22because that will weed out
12:24maybe 50% of the inquiries that come
12:26back that don't that aren't willing to
12:28get photos, not willing to get photos,
12:30they're probably not serious about
12:31having it done, right? They they need to
12:34try and get some sort of photos, even if
12:35it's just from a distance. I'm not
12:37saying go up and climb on the roof and
12:38get the photos, but if it was like a a
12:40playground or something else, go and get
12:42some photos, go and tell us what it is
12:44that you're looking for. Um is there any
12:46anything specific that you've kind of
12:48done research for for like, let's say,
12:50what type of slate roofing that that it
12:51is? Um come back to us. We'll then get
12:55all the information and then we change
12:56it from like a cold web lead to like a a
13:00hot lead um because not only have they
13:01inquired saying, oh, they'll have to
13:03have a price for heritage roofing, now
13:05they're giving us the all the
13:06information and then we can send it
13:08through to the to the clients that way.
13:10But, I only really do that when I have
13:13some sort of investment in the company.
13:15And that And then it's almost like a
13:16sales generation. And we could go one
13:19step further and do the quotes if if
13:22we felt it was worth it for for us. Um
13:25cuz you get some of the
13:26a very good electricians or plumbers or
13:29tarmac companies and they might not be
13:31in the office until the weekend. They
13:33might be away themselves doing some of
13:35the installation.
13:37But, they might be a really good company
13:38that we might say, "Well, you know what?
13:40We'll take the inquiries and we'll do
13:41the pricing for you, but let's let's
13:44kind of that at that point it could even
13:46be called in like investment
13:48opportunities that we own part of the
13:50Yeah, that's interesting. Uh what like
13:52what percentage of of your portfolio of
13:55your rank-to-rent portfolio would you
13:56say that you are an also an investor of
13:59the company?
14:00I'd probably say about
14:023%, something like that. So, not not
14:04many. Um
14:05but but what we're in hundreds and
14:07hundreds of niches, so there's probably
14:09about 20 different businesses when you
14:10look at it that way that I'm involved in
14:13as an as a direct investor or director.
14:15The um
14:17like we've got one which is uh like a
14:18road markings company. They're doing
14:20like the double yellow lines and stuff
14:22like that. Um and the reason why we kind
14:25of went into that is because it ties in
14:27with we do quite a lot of lead
14:28generation for road traffic management.
14:31So, like when I got into road markings,
14:33they need road traffic management and it
14:35kind of cross-sells to each other. So,
14:37you start you almost like imagine when
14:39you build a website and you're looking
14:40to build topical authority and you have
14:43all internal links like a spider's web.
14:45We've kind of done that offline with
14:47businesses. Like, what business can feed
14:49another business which can feed another
14:51business which can feed another business
14:52and that's kind of how we how we started
14:55to build it out Yeah. For for for what
14:57we do. Building a little empire. Very
15:00cool. Um so, yeah, getting getting back
15:02to like your kind of your portfolio, um
15:05can you briefly just tell us a a little
15:06bit about the size of your um
15:09basically the number of sites that
15:10you're renting out right now and also
15:12the size of the team that you have
15:15behind this?
15:16Well, we've got we've got over a
15:17thousand websites that we've built. I
15:20think there's about 1,200 1,200 websites
15:23in total that we've built out. But, I
15:25think there's about don't I mean, it to
15:28be fair, this can vary um but I think
15:30there's about 850 sites of the 1,200
15:34that are actually
15:36earning some sort of money, whether it's
15:38lead generation, whether it's rank and
15:40rents, whether it's display ads, right?
15:44From that, I reckon probably around 650
15:47are rank and rents
15:49and still with them with us for a while,
15:51650 with with agreed a rate. I mean,
15:54some some of them could only be two,
15:56three, 400 pound a month, but some of
15:59them can be 25,000 pound a month.
16:01So, it completely varies on the niche
16:04and how many inquiries that we're
16:05generating for how much it can earn.
16:08But, obviously,
16:09the the sites that are only earning
16:11maybe two, 300 pound a month might have
16:13only cost us
16:155,000 pounds to rank it. Where the ones
16:18that
16:1925 or 20 grand or 15 grand a month, that
16:22might have cost us 200,000 to rank it.
16:25But, still, it normally works out
16:28because we I've been talking with Ron.
16:29We've we've failed a lot throughout the
16:31years. Um but now,
16:33I feel like SEO's very predictable. Um I
16:37know people might laugh at that and
16:38there's been a lot of updates and stuff
16:40like that, but especially in local or in
16:43in certain kind of industries, it it's
16:46you build obviously build a good
16:48technical site that's not got any errors
16:51and it loads pretty fast and it converts
16:53and it's got like all the EAT signals on
16:55there. Build good quality content.
16:58Build topical clusters, so you've got
17:00topical authority, and build links. And
17:03if you try and cut one of them corners
17:05and don't do one of them one of them
17:06pillars correctly, you'll struggle to
17:09rank. But, if you do all of them well,
17:11you will rank. And what really
17:14frustrates me about the industry is how
17:16some people go out there in in kind of
17:19groups saying you don't need links to
17:21build good quality content. And then
17:22some people that are link builders like,
17:24oh, you just cheap out on your content.
17:28And you're like,
17:29no, build good quality content. Build
17:31out topical authority and build links,
17:34mainly to the homepage with like branded
17:36and naked URLs, but then start in links
17:38to your category pages and your money
17:39pages.
17:41In general, we we don't actually do that
17:43many links to money pages. That's the
17:44last thing of what we hit. Um
17:47but it it's not rocket science and and
17:49to be fair, everybody's got the
17:51blueprint. Some people want a
17:53a knowledge bomb. And sometimes I sit
17:55there and I say, "The knowledge bomb is
17:56get your right SOPs and good members of
17:58staff
17:59and start now today. Start building a
18:01site today cuz actually, last time I
18:04spoke to you 4 months ago, you're in
18:06exactly the same position as you was 4
18:07months ago and I told you what to do and
18:09you didn't start. You procrastinated and
18:11then you come back to me asking the same
18:13questions. And at that point, I feel
18:14it's disrespectful. So, go and do what I
18:17told you to do. Go and do those four
18:19pillars and do it." Yeah, it is dis- it
18:22is disrespectful.
18:23Yeah. And this don't want to do it and
18:25that's the that's the problem. It's the
18:27corner-cutting race, right? Uh but
18:28that's interesting about your uh your
18:30link building method as well cuz that's
18:32pretty much uh
18:33the exact same method that we preach to
18:35people like in our group and stuff. Uh
18:36you know, we're always trying to tell
18:37people just kind of link building best
18:39best practices and we do we we preach a
18:41lot of homepage building, you know,
18:43category pages, hub pages, anything that
18:45links out to a bunch of stuff, you know,
18:46like pillar content pieces or whatever,
18:48and then go and hit like money pages as
18:50well, but don't just like spam your
18:51money pages, right? Lots of natural
18:53anchors, too.
18:54you do that?
18:56Because it works.
18:57Yeah, it works. Builds overall authority
18:58of the site. It's safe.
18:59So, and you're and you're educating
19:01people, that's what they need to do and
19:03I'm educating people on top of that they
19:04need to do good quality content and
19:06topical authority. Mhm.
19:08So, why they're not doing it? And And
19:10the point is it's because they cheap
19:11out. Cheap Yeah.
19:13You You guys do quality links. So, you
19:16do all the foundational links, you do
19:18all the PBNs, you do the guest posts,
19:20you do the niche edits, right?
19:21Mhm. There's no different realistically
19:24from I mean, there is a little bit with
19:26regards to toxic links and trust and
19:27stuff like that and certain power of
19:29what you can get, but
19:30you guys are a an amazing link vendor,
19:33right? So, all that they need to do is
19:35write good quality content, whether they
19:36use
19:38Surfer SEO, Market Muse, whether they
19:40use onpage.ai, Phrase,
19:43um Clearscope, whatever it is that they
19:44might want to use for good quality
19:46content, go and do good quality content,
19:49genuinely believe that you've covered
19:51that page topic in its entirety. Then go
19:53and do what you guys preach. Go and get
19:55the foundational links to start with to
19:57the home page, naked URLs and branded
19:59anchors. Go and get a couple of the PBNs
20:01to go and get some power flowing to it.
20:03Go and get a few of the guest posts and
20:05then you send it to some of the category
20:06pages and kind of pillar posts that
20:08you're doing. And then the probably the
20:10last one, tap a few guest posts directly
20:13to the money pages that are really,
20:15really relevant, kind of what people
20:18call like reversing cost when they're
20:19super matching up the relevance. And
20:21that's it. And and there's no
20:24If someone's watching this and they're
20:25like, "Oh, I wanted a a knowledge bomb."
20:27That that's your knowledge Yeah. Yeah.
20:30Just go do everything right. Yeah,
20:32people don't like it. They don't They
20:34hate this answer. They hate, you know, I
20:35think Diggity might have made this uh
20:37phrase, but we're in the age of kind of
20:39like do all the things in SEO, right?
20:42And people hate that answer. They hate
20:43it so much. They just want like the the
20:44easy answer where you just have to do
20:46this and you can save all your time
20:47doing the other stuff. You mean I think
20:50just spin content and put up a site in
20:53like, you know, 5 hours and then have it
20:55ranking within a week by spamming it
20:57out. And you keep the rankings for
20:59years.
20:59remember those days though. Those days
21:01Yeah, it was it was awesome. Yeah.
21:04But it's long gone I think for the
21:06majority of people. Um yeah.
21:09So yeah, James, um what is like what's
21:11like the typical size of these sites
21:13that you're building?
21:15Um I know there's probably a quite a big
21:17like variation, but like if you just
21:19give us an idea like how many of
21:21how many sites are you doing that are
21:22like these big like national sites or
21:24even international where you just have
21:25like tons of location pages all doing
21:27like the same service or whatever versus
21:29like
21:30Go on, sorry. We don't We don't have any
21:32um
21:33international. They're all UK and
21:35Ireland of what we have.
21:37Um
21:37some might be completely national in UK
21:40and Ireland, so
21:42There's 43,476
21:47villages, towns, and cities in the UK.
21:51So, if you just had one service and you
21:53wanted to kind of go after every area in
21:55the UK, there's over 43,000
21:57pages to go after. Um
22:00Majority of kind of companies don't work
22:03fully nationwide. So, they might work
22:05like the
22:06Scotland and the north of England. Some
22:08might work just within 30 miles of
22:11London.
22:12Um
22:12so, it depends on the client if I'm
22:14being honest. Like, if they only want
22:16leads that's within an hour's drive of
22:18them, that's kind of what we'll build
22:21out. So, we might build a a hundred
22:23location page site. Some we might build
22:25a five 500 location page site. There is
22:28some that we build out that have got, I
22:30think, 1.2 million pages.
22:33Um if I'm being 100% honest, like, do do
22:36I struggle to rank every single page?
22:38Yes, of course I do. Like, Google's
22:40like, I need an insane amount of
22:43I probably need a DR not a DR DR can
22:45manipulate, but like, you need like some
22:47sort of DR80 site that's
22:49amazing content, amazing silo, um new
22:52velocity of content being done, new
22:54velocity of links being done on a
22:55consistent basis to get all them
22:57indexed. Yeah, there'll be a lot of
22:58juice to pass around. Even if I can just
23:00get 50% of those indexed, and you can
23:04use certain ways which whether you're
23:05using like Amiga indexer or you can do
23:08like um mass tweets and you can do
23:10certain things that are actually try
23:11your best to try to get more pages in
23:13the index.
23:15You'll never get them all in the index,
23:16but like you said, even 50% of the site,
23:19that's 600,000 pages
23:21in the index. Probably it's probably
23:23going to generate you
23:2440, 50 inquiries a day if that happens.
23:28And at that point, if you're in a good
23:29niche, if especially in the finance
23:31industry, that that alone could be
23:34earning you approximately about 80 grand
23:37a month.
23:38Nice.
23:39The um there's some there's some like I
23:42don't really talk about this too much,
23:43but
23:44I'll say it on here. We we make a little
23:46We make quite a lot of money on in the
23:48finance sector, and that's what kind of
23:50goes straight through to the call
23:50center.
23:51So, from
23:53from there then,
23:54um whether it's like voice factoring is
23:56quite a good one or business loans or
23:58mortgages. Um and what I'm finding is
24:02when you get really good at lead gen,
24:04and as I was talking about the spider's
24:06web, if you think if So, if you think
24:08about this,
24:10what what
24:12person would be looking at their
24:14pension? Would it be a young person or
24:16an old person?
24:18Old person most likely. Most Old person,
24:20right?
24:21So,
24:22we try to then start thinking, okay,
24:25what else might they be looking for?
24:28They're They're probably going to be 55
24:30plus. What else might they be looking
24:32for? And they might also be looking for
24:34something that's called equity release,
24:37which is where you're releasing equity
24:38out of your house because you want to go
24:40on a really nice cruise and you want to
24:42spend some of your money that you've got
24:43in in your house. You've worked really
24:45hard all your life, and you want to get
24:47some money out of your house, right? So,
24:49when someone inquires for a pension,
24:51on the thank you page, we might also
24:53say, "Oh, by the way, we've got some
24:55amazing deals on equity release. Are you
24:58interested in this?" And if they tick
24:59yes, that's a lead now for my equity
25:02release company as well. If they also
25:04say, "Would you be interested in um
25:07sorting out your will?" Like, if you're
25:09getting a will written or lasting power
25:11of attorney, which is in your case
25:12called an LPA,
25:14if they say yes to that, I can sell that
25:16to a will writing company. So, next
25:17minute, before I know it, that one lead
25:20I've now and each company's only had it
25:22like They've all got exclusive leads,
25:24but now a pension provider's got a lead,
25:26an equity release company's got a lead,
25:28and a will writing company's got a lead.
25:30So, it kind of ties in that I've I've
25:32managed to sell three leads, all
25:34exclusive.
25:36Like, I'm not even selling it. Could
25:37Like I said, it could be on the ranking
25:38men's, and they could be a good client.
25:41So, he's just trying to think of ways
25:43like majority of time when you let's say
25:46the mortgages, when you first get into
25:48doing mortgages, majority of the time
25:50when you get a mortgage, especially
25:52let's say you're moving in the house
25:53with your wife, right?
25:56At that point, you might start looking
25:58for life insurance cuz you've got a
26:00you're getting a mortgage on your house
26:01and you're saying, "Look, if one of us
26:03pass away here, we want to get the
26:04mortgage kind of paid off."
26:07But if I try and sell you life insurance
26:09at any point in your life, you're
26:10probably like, "No, get away. I don't
26:12want it." But at the time of you getting
26:14a mortgage, it's probably the best time
26:16that you might want life insurance. So,
26:18you do what's called cross-selling or
26:20upselling.
26:21So, there's all little things like that
26:22and different nuances like that of what
26:24you can do, which isn't just
26:26SEO-related,
26:28but it's maximizing the money that you
26:31can earn. And that's why I think what I
26:34think that's why we're good because
26:36there's so many people come to me going,
26:37"Well, I can only earn 200 pound, 300
26:39pound a month off that site." And I'm
26:40like,
26:41"Give it to me and I bet I can earn two
26:43two grand a month off that site." You're
26:44probably just not finding the right
26:46customers who's going to deal with it in
26:47the correct manner and give you the
26:49kickbacks that you deserve.
26:51I feel like we're starting to get
26:54I feel like we're starting to get like
26:55an idea for the scope of your business.
26:56Like it, you know, when you take 650
26:59sites now and you start factoring in
27:00this kind of thing, it it starts to feel
27:02like it Okay, this is going to be a ton
27:04of work.
27:06To be honest to be honest with you
27:07though, like, if if if I recommended
27:10someone to do like
27:12I won't recommend someone else to do
27:14what I've done. Like, it's not it's not
27:16easy. You need a massive team.
27:20You Are you going to have problems with
27:22um staff? Yes. Are you going to have
27:24problems with um staff ringing in sick
27:26on a Monday morning cuz they've been out
27:27all weekend? Yes. Are you going to have
27:29VAs that just leave? Yes. Like, it's not
27:32all kind of rainbows and sunshine. You
27:35know what I mean? Like, of course you
27:36have problems within the business. So,
27:38people just want to hear the high-level,
27:40top-level, "Oh my god, you're you're
27:42crushing it." And you're like,
27:44"Yeah, but the team have got loads of
27:45problems as well." Like, but they don't
27:47want to hear about that. They just want
27:48to hear about the good stuff. So, what I
27:51would recommend is if someone's happy
27:53with earning 15,000 pound a month,
27:56go and build five websites, right? And
27:59out of them five websites, one of them
28:02might do well, four of them might fail.
28:04But that one that does well will pay
28:07far outweigh the the losses of the four
28:09that you've lost. You're not going to
28:11have a high success rate. You're going
28:12to fail more times that you do than you
28:14do well on.
28:16So, what we did when we was failing back
28:18in our day of entering what we thought
28:20might have been a good good kind of
28:22industry,
28:24anything that we was generating leads on
28:25that was finding hard to monetize was
28:27chance to display ads, or we put it in
28:29our testing pool for our R&D testing
28:31team to say, "Go and play around with
28:33that. Go and break Google. Go and do
28:35whatever you can do. Push the boundaries
28:38on exact match anchors. Push the
28:40boundaries on how many links you can
28:41build. Push the boundaries on now like
28:43AI content. Go and do whatever you want
28:45with that site. If you tank it, I'm not
28:47bothered. Come Come back with data with
28:49how far you managed to get away with
28:51it." And there's times we've got now
28:53some display ad sites that are earning
28:5515 grand a month
28:57just with AI content, just with what
29:00what you deem to be spammy kind of
29:03backlink profile that have got exact
29:05match anchors and stuff like that. And
29:06you're like, "How's that even working?"
29:09And then I've got other sites
29:11where I've actually tried to do well on
29:13it and tried to build up my my content
29:15velocity and tried to build um good
29:18quality content, top quality content,
29:19good links.
29:21And in the in the latest update, I've
29:23had two sites hit
29:25that in my opinion shouldn't be hit.
29:27Now, obviously, there's a lot of people
29:29going, "Oh my god, I've had my sites
29:30that have been hit with a penalty."
29:32I've had two sites hit with in the
29:34penalty hard.
29:36Probably lost 50% of the traffic.
29:39And everyone says, "Oh,
29:41I don't deserve it. I don't deserve it."
29:43I genuinely think I don't deserve it,
29:45but the worst thing is, I've had
29:46probably 10 sites jump up and overtake
29:50my two sites that have gone down
29:52that are not updated in 2 years. So, I'm
29:55like, they don't deserve to be
29:56outranking then. So, even my latest
29:58update has been
30:00like, don't get me started on that. I
30:02feel like
30:04Yeah, that's a lot of people asking
30:05right now. No one No one's too happy
30:07with Google these days. Man, your your
30:10business model for the rank to rent
30:13thing you've got going reminds me of
30:15how I got my start in SEO, which was
30:17working for a company that was rank to
30:19rent, had, you know, hundreds of sites,
30:22and then
30:23a couple call centers, but
30:25predominantly, you know, that was all
30:27outbound sales calls, which is what I
30:28did for that company.
30:30But like 500 people doing outbound
30:33calls. Is your call center predominantly
30:35doing like outbound calls for your these
30:38leads that are coming in or
30:41are they taking in calls?
30:43They're both.
30:44So, what happens is the call center
30:46generally is
30:48when an inquiry comes We won't do cold
30:50calling, but when someone inquires,
30:52we've got KPIs set up within the call
30:54center. We need to ring it within 23
30:56seconds.
30:57Um
30:59So, uh there's these times where for
31:02certain industries, we've rung up the
31:04client, pretty much closed the client
31:06and sent a quote prior to even the next
31:08company even ringing them. Like, that's
31:11how efficient kind of the process is.
31:13Um we don't do cold outbound calls, but
31:16like I said, when they fill in the form,
31:17we ring them within 23 seconds. Or
31:20sometimes the telephone numbers that are
31:22on the website for the inbound calls,
31:24they'll take them as well. Um
31:26And but it's just difficult because like
31:29you said, um a 500-person call center,
31:32I couldn't think of anything worse than
31:34managing a 500-person call center. Like,
31:36we we fluctuate from 90 to maybe 120 in
31:40the call center.
31:42And it's a massive headache. Dude, I
31:44couldn't imagine. Yeah,
31:46um wrangling in a lot of stuff. I Now,
31:48mind you, this was predominantly doing
31:50like Jordan Belfort type outbound cold
31:53calling all day long, right?
31:55Um but still, just I feel like
31:57uh there's so many variables in managing
31:59that many people, um you know, taking
32:01different kinds of leads, um etc. And is
32:04that is that call center all local or
32:06some of it, you know, people in other
32:08countries as well? So, we've got um an
32:11overflow call center in the Philippines
32:13um for nighttime kind of shift. And then
32:16the two kind of We've split up into
32:18three 8-hour shifts. So, the nighttime
32:20shift um is
32:22in the Philippines. Um the daytime The
32:25two daytime shifts are like the early
32:27morning till maybe I think it's like
32:294:00, and then 4:00 till midnight. Um
32:33that's all based in Manchester. Um it's
32:35a place in Levenshulme.
32:36Um so, yeah, it's it's all
32:39Manchester-based, all UK
32:41English-speaking
32:42um
32:43people that are doing those. And And so,
32:44it very kind of works well because
32:46sometimes if you outsource it to, let's
32:48say,
32:49Bangladesh or Philippines or South
32:52Africa or Venezuela and stuff like that,
32:54which are all quite good places to get
32:56like virtual assistants,
32:58then the English the the they know that
33:01you've shipped it abroad and
33:03I feel like you need to have
33:06English-speaking people
33:08dealing with a UK lead or or Scottish
33:10dealing with Scotland and stuff like
33:12that.
33:13Um
33:13just just to convert just from the data
33:15the conversion rate. Um it's just it's
33:17just a lot better. It's going to
33:19increase trust flow, I would think, you
33:20know, for them to think that they're
33:21talking to a local person or something
33:23like that. And that
33:25And that Manchester um call center, is
33:27that something you actually set up
33:28yourself or is it like a call center
33:30that's already there and you kind of
33:31like contract through it or or
33:33something?
33:33No, so we we set it up probably about 7
33:36years ago. We had a
33:38a friend a close friend now. Um he
33:41actually worked in a pig farm. It was it
33:43was they We called it a pig farm
33:44basically. It was like a wooden kind of
33:46on a farmer's field a a wooden hall. Um
33:50we ended up getting like six people in
33:52there.
33:53Um and then
33:54we just kept building it up, but our
33:55issue was the internet access was like
33:57ridiculous cuz it was in the middle of a
33:59farm. So, when we tried to kind of send
34:01documents through for like mortgage
34:03brokers and bank statements, and it
34:05would just taking ages on the Wi-Fi and
34:07the internet. So, at that point, we
34:09needed to like level up and get a bigger
34:11size. Then we got like a 30-person
34:14call center
34:15in the center of Manchester. Our issue
34:17was
34:18in the center of Manchester,
34:21the rent was high for like for big
34:23areas. And then in Levenshulme that
34:25Levenshulme is like I don't know if
34:26you've ever if you've ever heard of it.
34:28It's it's a quite a rough area of
34:29Manchester. No don't No disrespect to
34:31anyone who's from Levenshulme like, but
34:34the um
34:35it's it's easy to get to. It's not real
34:38It's easy for parking. So, there's not
34:41like it's not within
34:43um the city center where it's hard for
34:45parking. It's hard to get to. There's
34:46traffic and all that. So, it just made
34:49it a lot easier to kind of recruit in
34:52that area than it was in the center of
34:54Manchester. And then from there then
34:56it's just expanded and expanded. We've
34:57bought the warehouse next door. And
34:59yeah, it's it's grown into a nice
35:01That's pretty awesome.
35:03Um And so, also speaking of phone calls,
35:06um
35:06what are you guys doing about GMBs or
35:09GBPs, you know, Google My Business,
35:10whatever you want to call it?
35:12Um
35:12So, over the years, I've had a lot of
35:13problems
35:15um with GMBs a lot.
35:17Um
35:18There's so There's so many people out
35:19there that are like, "I can create you a
35:20GMB." And stuff like that. And then they
35:22just get suspended. And the the worst
35:24part is that
35:25we used to mass create GMBs. And the
35:28issue was that it they only got
35:30suspended when they started ranking. So,
35:32you end up spending a lot of money on
35:33citations, spending a lot of money on
35:36whether people do like driving
35:37directions, filling out all the posts,
35:40doing all the photos, and then it gets
35:42suspended. And you're just like, "It's
35:44just not To me, it's just not a business
35:46model that
35:47it it don't entertain me cuz I want
35:49long-term sustainable rankings. I've got
35:52staff that I need to keep making certain
35:54that we can pay. I don't want to wake up
35:56one morning and a thousand GMBs have all
35:59gone down. So, we kind of because of
36:01that and um I mean, we've I I know
36:04people that are out there creating the
36:06GMBs. And
36:08they'll obviously fake fake the address.
36:10And then when Google sends a suspension,
36:13they'll go and doctor like Photoshop
36:15like the address, like bank details and
36:17stuff like that. But
36:19the issue is it's just blatant fraud.
36:21And Google actually I don't know if you
36:23knew about the lawsuit, but like a few
36:25months ago
36:26someone got done for it. And I'm just
36:28like, "I'm a prime candidate for for
36:31some for someone like Google to come
36:32after." Where like, I just I just don't
36:34want that hanging over my head and
36:36thinking I'm actually doing something
36:38that's fraudulent. So,
36:40if if our clients that take the leads
36:42aren't willing to allow us to use their
36:45address, we just don't create a GMB for
36:47the site. Where sometimes they say,
36:50"Yeah, by all means, we can you can use
36:51our address." Now, obviously, if they've
36:53already got a GMB, we won't bother. Um
36:56because we can't have two GMBs at the
36:58same location and stuff like that. Um
37:00Previously, we tried to do it where you
37:01do like 25A or 25B and set up like a
37:05suite number and stuff like that. But
37:07I I just want to do things right. And I
37:09know it sounds very white hat because I
37:11came from a bit of a black hat
37:12background. And I feel like I've gone
37:14very white hat. Um
37:16I'm looking for long-term sustainable
37:18kind of rankings. And I think Google's
37:20done a good job at cleaning up the
37:21industry, if I'm being honest. We're
37:24We're actually the same way. We used to
37:25be I think quite a bit more black hat
37:27than we are now. But
37:28once you, you know, start making some
37:30money, you you want to protect it,
37:32right? You don't want to Yeah, you want
37:33to clean it up.
37:35For sure.
37:36Um so, okay. So, if the client has a
37:38GMB, you use the GMB. Otherwise, you're
37:41basically just saying, "Okay, so much
37:43for maps. We'll just bank on, you know,
37:45organic clicks." And And don't get me
37:47wrong, Chris. Like, the
37:49that's probably bad advice cuz if you
37:51can get a GMB, a GMB can create you a a
37:53lot of inquiries. I'm not I'm not
37:56denying that a GMB is not good for a
37:57site. But if you can get a GMB and build
38:00that GMB out, it actually helps the
38:02website rank better. And if your
38:04website's ranking well, it helps the GMB
38:06rank better. So, it's not just about
38:08like engagement on the GMB. What the
38:10website that's connected through to it,
38:12if that's ranking well, the GMB will
38:13rank well. So,
38:15there's a lot of trust signals there. If
38:17you can get one made, I just don't go
38:21down the route of faking it
38:23because it's just going to lead to
38:25suspensions. And And like you said, it
38:27can lead to a lot of other issues
38:29further down the line that
38:30that I don't need. Could you imagine
38:32being that guy and getting the
38:35you know, whatever legal documents sent
38:37by the world's largest or, you know, one
38:40of the largest corporations in the world
38:41and be like, "Holy [ __ ] I am I mean,
38:44I'm done." Like, what are you going to
38:46do at that point?
38:48It is it is blatant fraud, isn't it,
38:49John? You know what I mean? Like, we all
38:51try to do things to like You guys do
38:53PBNs and try and and and and thing and
38:56ball. And some people go, "That's
38:57illegal. It's illegal." But it's not
38:59actually illegal. Like, you know what I
39:00mean? You know what I mean?
39:02There's nothing illegal in doing
39:03something like that. It's frowned upon
39:05in the industry. But then these same
39:07people that are frowned upon a PBN,
39:08they're frowned upon buying links and
39:10say, "Oh, it's against Google
39:11guidelines. It's illegal."
39:13It don't mean it's illegal. Do you know
39:14what I mean? Yeah. Frowned upon is fine.
39:17Yeah, we we'll do frowned upon. We don't
39:20do fraud. Yeah, definitely staying away
39:22from the illegal side of things.
39:25Um you know, okay. So, going back to
39:27kind of like more a little bit of an SEO
39:29focus on things. Um
39:31And we kind of talked about this before
39:34about just doing all the things for SEO.
39:36Uh but are there any specific strategies
39:38that you guys really like to use right
39:40now as far as ranking these sites?
39:44So, we
39:46build good quality content. We try and
39:47make certain that we think of every kind
39:49of topic and question that someone might
39:51want to know for that product or service
39:54that people are doing.
39:56My own pages
39:58you guys do
39:59some I think one or two my different
40:01companies buy quite a lot of links from
40:03Sir Links a Lot on the like the
40:04foundational links and then
40:06some of the stuff is what you do.
40:09Um
40:10The I've got like I try not to get too
40:13involved in the day-to-day of I've got
40:16one or two companies that I'll buy
40:17obviously I'm an investor in Searcharoo.
40:19But then I've got another company that
40:20says, "No, no, I like the foundational
40:22links and stuff from from you guys and
40:23the PBNs and the guest posts." So, I'm
40:25just like better the devil than know.
40:28And like if they've got a process of
40:29ordering from you, then then let that
40:32be. So, it kind of just goes down the
40:35route exactly what you was preaching
40:36before.
40:37Build a lot of citations.
40:40Um build a lot of like
40:43trusted branded naked URL links to the
40:46homepage. Start in a few category pages
40:49with some links generally with some
40:50PBNs, maybe one or two PBNs to the
40:52homepage as well.
40:54Um start getting some guest posts
40:57throughout the whole site for relevance
40:59that's coming through. Few niche edits
41:01which aren't as relevant but might send
41:03more power and trust through the site.
41:05It's hard to really line up relevance on
41:08a niche edit or link insertion stuff
41:10like that.
41:11And a lot of the time that's enough. Um
41:14if it's not, you probably need to write
41:16more articles for more topical authority
41:18and build more links. Um and that's kind
41:20of how it works and and there's no
41:23secret apart from that. Um we I mean
41:26something that I that we do like one or
41:28two little tricks of what we do is we
41:31try and make certain I'm sure you've
41:33heard of like parasite SEO. Mhm. We try
41:36to make certain that our guest posts all
41:38of our guest posts we kind of treat as
41:41parasite SEO. So, we try to rank our
41:43guest posts for the keywords that we
41:46want our money site to rank for so that
41:49in an ideal world for me I want us to
41:51rank number one
41:53and I want our guest post to rank number
41:54two
41:55for the keyword that we want to go
41:57after. And what better way of getting
41:59traffic from let's say the
42:02position number two which goes back to
42:03position number one. Do you know what I
42:05mean? It's that's kind of how we do it.
42:07Um
42:08we do quite a lot of tier twos. Um
42:11to like to our guest posts. What do you
42:13like to use for tier two?
42:15We've actually got our own network in
42:16Searcharoo. Um so, we've got a lot of um
42:20like old PBNs and like niche edits. So,
42:25we might have like certain relationships
42:27with um a lot of blog owners that might
42:29turn around and say,
42:30"Right, okay. If you're going to buy X
42:32amount of guest posts from us like in
42:36if you're going to buy X amount of guest
42:38posts, we'll allow X amount of niche
42:40edits." So, we
42:43sorry, the guest posts the tier two
42:45sorry that we get we're only selling at
42:48$20 each and it's for a niche edit. Now,
42:51if I'm being 100% honest some of them
42:52are buying them for money sites as well.
42:54Cuz they're actually they're actually
42:56pretty good and they do
42:57Well,
42:58yeah, it's tier twos that work pretty
43:00well.
43:01Um
43:02And and I only really tier I only really
43:04tier them to the guest posts.
43:07Um but I'm sure your guy your your PBNs
43:10would work in an amazing way powering up
43:12the the guest posts. If
43:14if you're not selling many of them, I'd
43:17start recommend to your clients and
43:19saying if someone's paying quite a lot
43:20on the guest posts,
43:22get them powered up cuz they might get a
43:24high DR DR50 but if the if the internal
43:28linking to it's not great, then the page
43:31level's not very strong. So, start
43:33tapping a few tier twos through to that.
43:36Um
43:37And yeah, that's that's generally it.
43:39There's no massive knowledge bombs in
43:41that apart from So, something else that
43:42we might that we try to do is if we've
43:44got an author on the site or a name on
43:47the meet the team page, we try to make
43:50certain in the guest post that we'll be
43:52mentioning them as well.
43:54So, if ever someone like a Google
43:55quality rater guideline a Google quality
43:58rater came to look at the site and
43:59Google
44:01the name of the author with the topic or
44:03the industry,
44:04these articles would be showing up
44:06saying, "Oh, these are an expert in
44:08heritage roofing." Do you know what I
44:09mean? And then they would be
44:11Get some expertise out there cuz I know
44:13the quality raters actually do that.
44:15They'll search for your name and then
44:16look around to see where you're
44:17mentioned and stuff. So, that's that's a
44:18good idea to get them on the guest
44:19posts.
44:20I don't
44:21they'll search for like saying Nick
44:23Alltima minus serlinks-a-lot.com.
44:27And obviously then links. So, they kind
44:29of say, "What where on the internet?"
44:31Now, obviously for links it doesn't it's
44:33not really an area that E-A-T is a big
44:36thing. But let's say it's to do with
44:37finance.
44:39They might come along and say something
44:40like
44:41"Nick Alltima um
44:43FCA minus
44:46Nickfinance.com
44:48if that's your website. And see where
44:50where on the internet are you people
44:52saying that you're an expert that's not
44:53on your website? And and do you have a
44:56brand search for it? And if you don't,
44:58well, we might not trust your your
45:00articles that you're writing about
45:01finance cuz realistically you probably
45:04would have an FCA license which would
45:07have an FCA profile and you'd have
45:09certain other kind of people talking
45:11about you all and stuff like that. So,
45:12that's something else that
45:15if I'm being honest with you
45:17about up until about 12 months ago, um I
45:20thought E-A-T was like a myth.
45:23I thought it was one of them things that
45:24was going throughout the industry. Same
45:26with disavows. Um
45:28I thought disavows and E-A-T was a myth
45:31in many many years. And it was one of
45:33them that I'd love to go out and say,
45:34"Ah, you're talking so much garbage.
45:37It's not even a thing." until
45:40No, that they're like businesses now
45:42that I've bought. So, I love I love kind
45:44of getting my teeth into website
45:45recovery quite a lot. Um We get still to
45:49this day and I don't know whether you
45:51know this or you don't.
45:53There's probably two or three manual
45:55action link penalties that still happen
45:58today.
45:59I heard Kyle Roof the other day talking
46:01on
46:02Miguel Britain and he was like, "When
46:03the last time you heard a manual action
46:05link penalty?" And I was like,
46:07"Kyle like there's several every week
46:09that's still happening now to this day.
46:11It's not they've not stopped it." Yeah,
46:13we haven't seen one in a while actually.
46:15We're in the
46:16It's been quite a while. You know, we
46:17haven't had at least we haven't had any
46:19like any clients complain or anyone in
46:20our like managed link building program
46:22or whatever.
46:23generally speaking it's in the finance
46:25industry, money or life industry or
46:27actually quite a lot of them is in
46:28Google News. So, if you've got like a
46:30big Google News site,
46:32um
46:33the only reason why I start to know
46:34about it now is we actually got hit I
46:37think it was about four and a half years
46:38ago with a manual action penalty.
46:40And I didn't have a clue like what to
46:42do. So, it's in Google Search Console.
46:43They've emailed you. You've got a manual
46:45action penalty. What do you do?
46:47Oh, you need to do a reconsideration
46:48request. Right, okay. Who does this?
46:50Who's the godfather of disavows? Who's
46:53the main guy in the world that can get
46:54me out of this? Cuz I was earning the
46:56site was earning like 40 grand a month
46:58at the time. And everybody all fingers
47:01pointed to Rick Lomas. He's like, "Rick
47:03Lomas is God. He's unbelievably he's got
47:06it." So, I went and met him. He's from
47:07the UK. So, I went and met him and
47:10he basically started to say, "Um look,
47:12I'm looking to wind down. I'm looking to
47:15like semi-retire. Obviously I'll do the
47:17disavow for you." And I'm like, "Nick,
47:19train me up. Like I buy so many links.
47:22Just for me knowing what a good link
47:24looks like,
47:25train me up." Cuz I never at that time I
47:27didn't I didn't use trust and I didn't
47:29use toxicity. All that I thought was if
47:32I get a high DR with traffic and with
47:35with relevance, I've got the holy grail
47:37of link building. Until he starts
47:39talking to me about trust and toxicity.
47:41And at that point I'm like, "I don't
47:43even know what you mean." Like you're
47:44talking double the [ __ ] to me.
47:47And then I got trained up on it and then
47:48from there I was like, "Oh." And now we
47:50do all of Rick's disavows now. So,
47:53because he's he's like the godfather of
47:56link manual kind of action penalties,
47:59we now do the fulfillment for Rick. And
48:01Rick's a great guy. He's kind of more
48:03than semi-retired. He's almost retired
48:05now.
48:06But because we're SEOs,
48:09we do our best. And sometimes for about
48:11a year me and Rick was banging heads
48:13with each other. I'm like, "I don't want
48:14to disavow this link. It's got trust but
48:16it's got power and it's high DR and it's
48:18relevant and it's a branded anchor
48:20text." And he's like, "But it's toxic."
48:22And we kind of know I don't feel we're
48:25as as aggressive as what Rick Lomas was.
48:29But we get them out of the penalty but
48:30we still try and keep as many of the
48:32high powered high trust links that's
48:36pointing through to the site. And then
48:38same with E-A-T. I don't know if you've
48:39ever heard of um an author transparency
48:42penalty.
48:42Have you ever heard of that? Uh-uh. No.
48:45So, we had a Google News site um and it
48:47was doing really well. It kept getting
48:49Google Discover.
48:50Um
48:51Bam. Manual action penalty. And this is
48:54this is recent. This is like maybe 3
48:56months ago. Manual action penalty. I'm
48:58like, "Oh God, I've got a link penalty."
49:00What clicks onto it? Author transparency
49:02penalty. I was like,
49:04"What even is this?" And then I went
49:07through it and it's literally I I can
49:08send you through the the image of it
49:10from Google Search Console. Author
49:12transparency penalty. And I've only ever
49:14known now
49:16anybody in the finance your money or
49:18life and um
49:21the Google News sector get them at
49:24present. But
49:26I'm being told that and you don't know
49:29but I'm being told they're going to be
49:30rolling out algorithmically a little bit
49:31more. So, from that I've just now
49:33started to
49:35I set up an E-A-T SEO kind of
49:38And you know what? It's just ticking the
49:40boxes like
49:41it for the sake of when you're building
49:44out a site, building an about us page, a
49:45meet the team page, have a telephone
49:47number on there, have an email address
49:48on there where someone if someone wants
49:50to complain about your site about
49:51something, they can get hold of you. Try
49:53not to hide the contact page. Do you
49:56know what I mean? Like just
49:57That's right. privacy policy, cookie
49:59policy. Just again, and I know it sounds
50:01very blasé, but just do all things
50:03right. Just do what a normal business
50:05would do.
50:07That's the same exact thing we tell
50:08people. Just like do what a normal
50:09business would do. Try not to be
50:11sketchy.
50:12Don't cut corners. I mean like you know
50:14if a regular business is doing it, go
50:15ahead and set it up like a regular
50:17business.
50:18Well, for you guys it could work amazing
50:20for Serlinksalot. It could work amazing
50:21because
50:23realistically, you could start almost
50:25selling EAT link building. Cuz if you
50:27start to
50:29like you said, mention the author
50:32in the guest post.
50:34Now you're saying this is an EAT link
50:36building service. Do you know what I
50:37mean? It's a good idea, really.
50:40You should be doing it.
50:42Yeah, you should do it. 100% you should
50:44do it cuz then you're ticking like why
50:46waste? So many people build a guest
50:47post. Right. And all right, they might
50:50line up the relevance, but they're
50:51wasting so many things. Like why not on
50:53that guest post get an image embed, get
50:56a video embed,
50:58mention the NAP listing, and mention the
51:01author. Like they're still only getting
51:03one do-follow contextual link to the
51:05site, but actually having an image embed
51:08and a video embed helps it indexing
51:10better as well. It's got a chance of
51:11that then um ranking in Google images
51:15and Google videos if that guest post
51:16getting that little bit more traffic. So
51:18all those little minor wins
51:20that long term is what's going to stand
51:21you in good stead.
51:23Right. Sure. For sure. What's now?
51:25Serlinksalot EAT link building. Yeah,
51:28newest newest product. We'll see we'll
51:30see if we're first to market.
51:32So that that's a good idea.
51:34Yeah, thanks for the heads up, man. For
51:36sure.
51:37Um
51:38So back back to rank to rent a little
51:39bit. Um what like so how you know we we
51:42talked about you know you build the
51:44site, you rank the site, you start
51:45getting leads, you start selling leads.
51:47How are you finding your clients to sell
51:49these leads to initially? Like how you
51:51how are you finding them initially?
51:53Yeah. So initially, let's say I I get
51:55we'll just use the Heritage Roofing. It
51:56doesn't matter what industry it is, but
51:57Heritage Roofing, um we find okay or
52:00let's say just roofing in general cuz so
52:02we might not know Heritage Roofing yet
52:04is good. So you go and build a roofing
52:05website. And generally speaking, what
52:08you do is you go out to every single
52:11person on the internet that is paying
52:14for PPC for anything to do with roofing.
52:17You go on to Yellow Pages, anyone who's
52:19paying for
52:20um
52:22like Yellow Pages premium advertising.
52:24You go on Checkatrade, anyone who's
52:25paying to be part of that directory.
52:27Anyone in any newspaper that's that's
52:29kind of doing any sort of ads. If you
52:31listen to someone on the radio anywhere
52:33that they're doing anything to do with
52:34roofing, you go and find any company
52:36that's paying some money for
52:38advertising, and you contact them saying
52:41we can generate you roofing leads,
52:43right? And on that website, you might
52:44have 30 different companies, right? But
52:47you're not you're not promising any of
52:49one of them exclusive leads. You're just
52:51saying we might be able to generate you
52:53leads for roofing. Are you interested?
52:55For completely for free. All's what we
52:57ask you to do, you don't pay anything
52:59for the leads.
53:01Once you if it's one of our leads, add
53:035% on top of your price for us, right?
53:07Are you still going to be competitive
53:08for you if you do that? They go, "Yeah,
53:09not a problem." So you're going, "Right,
53:11okay. So if it's a 10 grand job, just go
53:12and add 10,500 pound." Majority time
53:15that's not going to lose them the job.
53:17And if they win it,
53:19the one that wins it, we get 500 pound
53:21from. What it actually starts to tell
53:23you is the ones that win it and give you
53:24the 500 quid
53:26are the best at converting the leads.
53:29Cuz they're the one that's converted it.
53:31So at that point now, you're not testing
53:33you're not like how do you know the
53:35company's good at conversion? Well, you
53:37don't know they're good at conversion
53:38until
53:40you start to realize who's won the job.
53:42Do you get what I mean? So like at that
53:44point, some of them start becoming
53:46annoyed cuz you're going, "Oh, you're
53:47sending it to 30 companies." And you go,
53:49"Yeah, no we are. Like I never told you
53:50you're getting exclusive leads." And
53:52those that are going, "Oh, but they're
53:53cheaper than us."
53:54Right? They're just paying 500 quid
53:56commission. You didn't pay me anything,
53:57so I'd sooner go to someone that's going
53:59to win more work.
54:00Right. Complaining about your free
54:01leads.
54:03That's the problem I kept running into
54:05was uh you know you'd send them leads,
54:07but then I don't know depending on the
54:10type of blue collar worker especially
54:12that I was working with, they'd be like,
54:14"Oh well, you know, I don't know."
54:16And blah blah blah. And it's like,
54:18"Well, you know, if I can't talk
54:20rational sense and data with you, then
54:22you know, it's not going to work out
54:24eventually." Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um
54:27you need to kiss a lot of frogs to find
54:28your princess. Do you know what I mean?
54:30So like For sure. You've just got to go
54:31out and have a broad
54:33like the ones that realistically
54:36this is what normally happens. You send
54:38out to 30, 15 of them come ringing you
54:40up going, "Show me our file." You've
54:42sent it out to loads, but I'm going to
54:43switch them off, right? The other 15,
54:45maybe 10 out of them 15 have created a
54:48Google Sheet that have logged every
54:50single inquiry that's come in and told
54:52you where that they the leads up to and
54:54what commission that they've added on.
54:55And you go, "These are the companies I
54:57want to work with." Right? And they're
54:59not every there's not every company out
55:00there that do that, but they're the ones
55:02that you want to work with. They're the
55:03ones that log every inquiry and tell you
55:06where they're up to. Not that I want to
55:08go and sit in every single
55:10Google Sheet to find out where people
55:12are up to or not, but you want them to
55:14have some sort of system that you know
55:15that they're tracking it end to end from
55:18inquiry coming into the source is us and
55:21what commission that they've added on.
55:22And at that point you go, "I like these.
55:24I can trust these." And that's when then
55:26further down the line they start to
55:28trust you a little bit more. They're
55:29winning you jobs. They've probably made
55:31some good profit off it.
55:33And then from that generic roofing
55:35website, you then can start going down
55:38the road of saying, "Right, that's a
55:40website that just is just roofing. What
55:43is it that you do that you're really
55:45good at?" It's like someone coming to
55:46you um um
55:48selling you digital marketing leads. And
55:51loads of people are coming through to
55:52you that are wanting um PPC, Facebook
55:55ads, and web design. And you kind of go,
55:58"Well,
55:59it's not really what we do. We do
56:00links."
56:01Yeah.
56:02So then you go and build a website
56:03that's SEO, but then they're wanting
56:04loads of content being written. And
56:06you're like, "Oh, it's not really what I
56:07do." It's So like you kind of start on
56:09digital marketing, then it might move to
56:12SEO. And then you have to start
56:13realizing actually no, it's just links.
56:14It's not even content and parts of SEO.
56:16It's just links that we want. And then
56:18when you build a website on that,
56:20they're converting them exactly as they
56:22should be converting them cuz it's
56:23exactly what they want. And then that's
56:25why you've kind of But is there any way
56:27of finding that using SEMrush or Ahrefs?
56:30No. Like is there any quick wins that
56:32you can do like you used to be able to
56:34throw up a 500 page site? No. Like it's
56:37hard work. I'm not I'm not going to tell
56:39you that it's easy cuz it's not. But
56:41it's
56:42it's awesome the filter that you've got
56:44set up essentially because then you like
56:46you said, you are finding these very
56:47serious, open-minded kind of broad view
56:50business people that are willing to you
56:53know, do these exercises that you need
56:55to see if it's going to be symbiotic. Um
56:57and then eventually, you know, if you
56:59can take over part of that company and
57:01help grow it, um you know, that's that's
57:04awesome.
57:05Cuz you filter out all the all the junk.
57:08But so something that I would say and
57:09I've said this on a few different
57:10podcasts and I think it's very very very
57:12important is
57:14I know now and there's a little bit of a
57:17problem where I've got to make certain
57:18internal of my staff know this and I've
57:21got to keep trying to instill into them
57:22that um
57:24with a lot of power becomes a lot of
57:25responsibility. And
57:28we've got certain websites out there
57:30where some of them might be renting like
57:32you said,
57:32let's call it 25 grand a month is on the
57:34upper good side. There's some that maybe
57:36do slightly more, but generally
57:37speaking, let's say it's 15 to 25 grand
57:39on on the higher end. Those clients
57:42might have grown from two vans on the
57:44road to 25 vans on the road.
57:48That now means that they've got 60
57:50members of staff on the road in in
57:53installation teams
57:55that if I stopped their inquiries,
57:58there's potentially 60 families that
58:03might not be able to pay their mortgage
58:04next month. Yeah. Right? So
58:08at that point, it becomes a little bit
58:09scary because you then start to go
58:13like I need to make certain that I don't
58:14get hit with an update. Do you know what
58:16I mean? But the but the big the biggest
58:18part actually is making certain that my
58:22staff that are managing them sites don't
58:26get a phone call from the biggest
58:27competitor down the road and say,
58:30"I know that oh they might say, how much
58:33is um
58:34Chris renting your site for?" Or or all
58:38his leads are going through to Chris
58:40Roofing. And you you go, "Yeah." And
58:42they go, "They're paying 15 grand a
58:43month." And they go, "I'll give you 20%
58:45extra. I'll give you 18 grand a month."
58:48We can't just switch them off.
58:50Cuz that's not fair because they've
58:51built the business with us. We've built
58:53a business with them. We've got
58:55relationships with them, long-term
58:57relationships. Like we could like
58:59there's not we're not got a contract to
59:01say it's this is it. They own the site.
59:03We own the site. And any point I could
59:05switch them off. And I could say, "No,
59:06that's it. You've been switched off."
59:09And I just worry sometimes and I don't
59:11because it's like I make certain that
59:12they wouldn't do it, but
59:15could a member of staff who gets
59:17commission on what the sites earn, would
59:20they want to earn an extra 3 grand a
59:21month? Of course they would.
59:23So for that, I've got to make certain
59:25that they're doing stuff with honest,
59:26trust, and integrity. And
59:29and again, it's It's good problem for me
59:30to sit on and have, but it's still a
59:33problem. And I've still got to make
59:35certain that
59:36the culture within the company is the
59:38right they're doing the right thing.
59:41Um and it's not the right thing isn't
59:42always the most profitable thing. Um
59:46So, that's something else to take on
59:48that again it's like people might not be
59:50able to scale it like what we scaled it.
59:52Um
59:53but it
59:55All I do is if you do start doing it,
59:57I'd like people to learn just make
59:59certain you do things right cuz peop-
1:00:01things can come back to haunt you
1:00:03further down the line. Like I'm a big
1:00:05believer in karma and stuff like that
1:00:07and just I hate like I hate it when I
1:00:10hear people kind of mugging somebody
1:00:12else off or I hate it when someone has
1:00:14done something to to like earn a lot of
1:00:17money out of someone and robbed them in
1:00:18some way, shape, or form. And just I
1:00:20know I'm going off subject now from SEO,
1:00:22but I think it's very important
1:00:25Yeah, I don't know if it is going off
1:00:26subject. I mean, I remember getting my
1:00:28start and having to go through all these
1:00:30different
1:00:31you know, situations like that where
1:00:33it's like I mean, I lost a fortune
1:00:35trying to figure out how
1:00:37you know, SEO works. And then
1:00:39comparative to you know, what we talked
1:00:41about earlier in this podcast, it's like
1:00:43the principles are pretty simple. It's
1:00:45all this confusion that's out there on
1:00:46purpose so that people can suck money
1:00:48out of other people
1:00:50you know, that are creating these
1:00:52negative effects. Yeah, yeah, yeah, for
1:00:54sure.
1:00:54For sure.
1:00:55Um yeah, so in the in the in the
1:00:58interest I'm not keeping you here all
1:00:59night. I'm sure it's probably getting
1:01:00kind of late over there. I'm not really
1:01:01sure where you're at, but I'm assuming
1:01:02you're in the UK right now.
1:01:04Um yeah, do you see do you see any
1:01:06problems you know, we're talking about
1:01:07problems. Do you see any kind of like
1:01:09big problems for the rank and rent kind
1:01:11of business model moving forward? Um or
1:01:14or is it just kind of usual SEO stuff?
1:01:16You know, just try not to get hit by
1:01:18algo updates.
1:01:20So, my my question back to you on that
1:01:22would be um yeah, there there's
1:01:24potential um issues where certain
1:01:28websites can take over you. But then you
1:01:30just reverse engineer why that's
1:01:31happened. It's the same with affiliate.
1:01:33It's the same with
1:01:34e-commerce, um drop shipping, whatever
1:01:37industry that you're in.
1:01:39Are things going to change? Yes,
1:01:40absolutely. Are things going to change
1:01:42with AI? Yes, absolutely.
1:01:44Have you got to adapt? Yes, absolutely.
1:01:47Like but it's just part of SEO. Like if
1:01:50if anyone thinks that growth is linear,
1:01:52they need to get out of the industry
1:01:53ASAP because you if you want to get from
1:01:57here to here, it's not one straight
1:01:58line. It goes
1:02:00kind of like this.
1:02:02And there's going to be peaks and
1:02:03troughs. And
1:02:05and yes, like and
1:02:07Nick mentioned before, you could you
1:02:09used to be able to roll up a site a 500
1:02:11page site quite easily, spin the
1:02:13content, do a bit of GSA SEO magic,
1:02:16money robot, SEO autopilot, and just
1:02:19spam it and bam, you're ranking within a
1:02:21week. And you can't do that anymore. You
1:02:24can't do it anymore, but
1:02:25but
1:02:26things change and you've just got to
1:02:29keep adapting to what the changes are.
1:02:30They might put more emphasis on GMBs and
1:02:33then then I might have to get more
1:02:34involved in GMBs. They might put more
1:02:36emphasis on links and then I need to get
1:02:37more links. They might put more emphasis
1:02:39on topical authority and then I need to
1:02:41do more topical authority. But the truth
1:02:42of the matter is
1:02:45if my site drops,
1:02:47they're going to have to replace it with
1:02:49another site that's better.
1:02:51And what other site out there is better
1:02:52than mine? And and if I find another
1:02:54site that takes over me,
1:02:57I'm going to get back in the trenches
1:02:58and find out why they've overtaken me
1:03:00and and go and do everything I can to
1:03:02overtake them. So, and I and I'd love to
1:03:05have a fight with anyone on on the on
1:03:06the work treadmill.
1:03:08I don't think I would be. Like I will
1:03:10work 23 hours a day if need to 7 days a
1:03:13week.
1:03:14Um so, there there's that, but
1:03:18yeah, I mean, you've got SGE that you
1:03:20could start saying is that going to take
1:03:22stuff away? I don't think it will from
1:03:24lead generation. It might
1:03:26where a lot of people I think are going
1:03:27to get hit hard
1:03:29is when SGE fully rolls out, all the
1:03:31people that make money by doing display
1:03:33ads,
1:03:34I think are going to get hit hard with
1:03:38how much earnings they're going to make
1:03:39because I think a lot of the sites
1:03:42the high traffic sites because they're
1:03:44informational terms
1:03:46and I think those informational terms
1:03:48are going to be answered by AI within
1:03:51um SGE. So, I think those
1:03:54people need to start looking at
1:03:56alternative ways of money.
1:03:58Um but some of these people that are sat
1:04:00on these display ad sites that are doing
1:04:012 million clicks a month,
1:04:04not being money I'd I'd love to manage
1:04:05some of them sites cuz you could put
1:04:07lead gen on there. There's so many
1:04:08different ways that you could earn money
1:04:09from it. You could put affiliate on it.
1:04:11You could put lead gen on it. Obviously
1:04:12display ads on it. Um just tenancy on
1:04:15there. There's so many other ways of
1:04:17monetizing site. You could rent out the
1:04:19um the pixel to someone like the
1:04:21Facebook for retargeting pixels. There's
1:04:23like there's endless amount of ways of
1:04:25monetizing a site. I I think we I think
1:04:27there's a 17 point checklist that we
1:04:29have for how to monetize a site, right?
1:04:32And people just do display ads and put
1:04:34Ezoic or AdThrive or Mediavine on it and
1:04:36go, "Ah, I'm earning money." And you're
1:04:38like, "There's so many other ways with
1:04:39the traffic that you're getting
1:04:42that you could do to monetize that in a
1:04:43better way." So,
1:04:45yes, the answer is I do worry for
1:04:47certain industries.
1:04:49Um do I worry? I don't I'm not losing
1:04:51any sleep at night because
1:04:53anything that does change, then I need
1:04:55to adapt my strategy. And that's what
1:04:57I've always done in the last 12, 13
1:04:59years.
1:05:00An SEO that sticks around, right? You
1:05:02got to adapt. Um actually lied though.
1:05:04I've got one more question for you. Uh
1:05:06besides working 23 hours a day, what's
1:05:08your secret to scaling your rank and
1:05:10rent empire?
1:05:12Um I I I could do anything of what I do.
1:05:15Like I definitely don't work 23 hours a
1:05:17day. I've got two kids now, so
1:05:20I want to be I want to be super
1:05:22successful and I want to keep growing um
1:05:24in work, but I also want to be the best
1:05:26dad in the world. So, I want to make
1:05:28certain that I can switch off when I get
1:05:29home. I normally get up at 5:00 in the
1:05:31morning, go to the office, smash out as
1:05:34much work as I can. I normally start
1:05:36getting distracted from about 10:00 um
1:05:39with like staff coming in the office and
1:05:40all the rest of it. They're coming
1:05:41earlier, but my first 4 hours I feel
1:05:44like I've got flow state work done. I
1:05:46get all my work done then. Then I'm just
1:05:48speaking to the team and seeing how
1:05:50everybody is in the office who are like
1:05:51our all my like middle managers,
1:05:54which have all got like VAs and stuff
1:05:56working for them and graphic designers
1:05:58and videographers and stuff like that.
1:06:00Um go to the gym at midday and then I
1:06:03try and spend time and switch off
1:06:06between like 3:00 and 7:00 every day
1:06:07going on bike rides and stuff with the
1:06:09kids.
1:06:10But how how have I managed to scale it
1:06:12is previously just onboarded
1:06:16brilliant staff
1:06:18that you elevate, that you train up,
1:06:20that you spend time with, and you have
1:06:22really, really, really concise SOPs.
1:06:26So, the two best things that we've got
1:06:28within the business is we've got an R&D
1:06:30testing team. So, if someone turns
1:06:32around to me, if you came to me and says
1:06:34"PBNs are working better than ever."
1:06:36I'll be like, "Thank you very much,
1:06:38Chris, for that information. I'll go and
1:06:40test it." And I won't just go and rehash
1:06:42what you've just said going to everybody
1:06:44else, "PBNs work amazing." I'd go and
1:06:46test it and check. And I've probably
1:06:47already got the test data anyway cuz we
1:06:49we do some stuff with PBNs. Um but
1:06:54then you might say something else and I
1:06:55again I'll go and test it. So, that's
1:06:56one part that's good. And the other part
1:06:59is we employ two members of staff and
1:07:01all that they do is work through the
1:07:04SOPs and on isn't all that's standard
1:07:06operating procedures like step-by-step
1:07:09processes
1:07:10of like how to order this, how to how to
1:07:14order this, how to do a content brief,
1:07:15how to do keyword research. Just all the
1:07:17basics of every step. And I think
1:07:20there's 118
1:07:22SOPs that we have. And each one might
1:07:24have maybe 30, 40 steps, right? From how
1:07:27to look for a domain, how to buy a
1:07:29domain, how to host a domain, how to set
1:07:31up the site, and do everything. Now,
1:07:33they don't all do that. They only do
1:07:35elements of let's say building it and
1:07:37stuff, but
1:07:39build get good quality staff,
1:07:41train them up, and good quality SOPs,
1:07:44and make certain that they're concise.
1:07:46Majority of SOPs I look at,
1:07:48they'll do a 45 minute video that could
1:07:51have been 4 minutes.
1:07:53And just make them concise, make the
1:07:56step step-by-steps. And we we two
1:07:58members of staff just go through the
1:08:00SOPs and make them as concise as
1:08:01possible. Can that 18 step checklist
1:08:04become a
1:08:0612 step checklist or an 11 step
1:08:07checklist? Just make it really concise,
1:08:09straight to the point, no no fluff,
1:08:12straight in, and then have like a Loom
1:08:14video underneath it showing the steps of
1:08:17this is how you do it. And do I want
1:08:19that? If if it's a 2 minute video, if it
1:08:20can be 90 seconds, redo it. I want it 90
1:08:23seconds cuz that video's going to get
1:08:25watched hundreds of times. And that's
1:08:27saving 30 seconds times 100 people
1:08:30watching it, it's well worth kind of
1:08:32make it as concise as it can be. So,
1:08:35just brilliant staff. Like I'm nothing
1:08:37without my staff around me.
1:08:39Um I know that. They know that I know
1:08:41that. And
1:08:42my kind of role my main role now is
1:08:44probably being a cultural architect in
1:08:46the business um in just keeping them
1:08:48happy and um a lot of them like
1:08:51I've got six apprentices that started
1:08:54and I think they started on and bear in
1:08:56mind these are in the UK.
1:08:58They started on 500 pound a month, which
1:09:01is like way below minimum wage, but
1:09:03that's what the apprenticeship wage was.
1:09:05And it's like an alternative to people
1:09:06going to like university. And they had
1:09:08no experience whatsoever. And now them
1:09:11six people that are apprentices are all
1:09:13directors of the company. They're all
1:09:15now they earn more money now off
1:09:17commissions than they do off the actual
1:09:18wage that they get. And they're on a
1:09:20good wage as well. And
1:09:22and my kind of role is I want each one
1:09:24of them to be as successful as they can
1:09:26be. and they can grow
1:09:28to have their own empire
1:09:30and they're on the way of building out
1:09:32their own mini empires and
1:09:34they're happy and it makes me happy
1:09:36seeing their growth.
1:09:38Awesome, man.
1:09:39Good stuff.
1:09:41Um yeah, so I guess we'll go ahead and
1:09:43wrap things up there. Um it's been
1:09:45awesome. Thanks for coming to talk to us
1:09:46about ranking rent. I feel like you
1:09:48know, it's been quite educational
1:09:50for me and I'm sure for for Nick as
1:09:52well.
1:09:53Um yeah, what are your what are your
1:09:55next plans for the year, sir? Are you
1:09:56are you planning on kind of uh extending
1:09:58the
1:10:00uh the podcast circuit into uh speaking
1:10:02circuit? Are you going to be around any
1:10:04um
1:10:05events?
1:10:06Um I'm I'm I always attend all the
1:10:08events. Um I prefer the masterminds than
1:10:10the actual talks. Um
1:10:13if I'm being honest, I don't like
1:10:15I I'll I prefer interacting with people.
1:10:17I quite like the podcast more than what
1:10:19I thought I would.
1:10:20Um because you can go down a rabbit hole
1:10:22of speaking about something specific
1:10:24that you might want to know or want to
1:10:26get into. Where if you're up on stage
1:10:28and you've just got a a fixed talk and
1:10:30that audience don't really want to know
1:10:32what that talk's about or they might
1:10:34have certain questions and want you to
1:10:35divert that way as opposed to going that
1:10:37way and you don't know how advanced the
1:10:39the the kind of the crowd are. There's
1:10:42been times where I've known some people
1:10:43go and do a talk and they've had a
1:10:44standing ovation and they've gone and
1:10:46done the exact same talk at another
1:10:47venue and they've been booed off stage
1:10:50cuz they're like it just it matters you
1:10:52need to adapt with who's there.
1:10:54Sometimes you don't know who's in the
1:10:55crowd. Um does it need to be like a
1:10:57white up if you go to Brighton they've
1:10:59always got to be like a white up type.
1:11:01They don't like you hearing about buying
1:11:02links. If you guys turned up there,
1:11:04you'd get booted out.
1:11:07That would be makes me want to go. Yeah,
1:11:09yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
1:11:11So, I love I love doing the masterminds.
1:11:13I quite like doing the podcasts. I want
1:11:15to build up a bit of a personal brand um
1:11:18just because I think as AI is growing, I
1:11:19think personal branding is going to
1:11:21become more and more important. So,
1:11:23that's the main reason why I want to do
1:11:25it um and yeah, I might do one or two
1:11:29Q&As on stage but I'd never do just a an
1:11:31outline just going up and doing a talk.
1:11:34Um I've nothing really to sell as well.
1:11:36A lot of quite a lot of people get up on
1:11:37stage and they're trying to sell
1:11:38something. Like none of these podcasts
1:11:40I'm not trying to sell anything to to
1:11:42people. I'm trying to help others and do
1:11:44well. I want others to I want to elevate
1:11:46others to be more successful. Um I make
1:11:49nothing from apart from more competition
1:11:52in by telling people that ranking rent
1:11:54is a good business model. Yeah, you've
1:11:55given a lot of very direct advice on
1:11:59some of the niches you're in etc. So, um
1:12:01yeah, but you know, I would highly
1:12:03advise anybody watching this not to go
1:12:06up against the famous James Dooley. He
1:12:08will whoop your ass more than likely.
1:12:12All right, James. Um yeah, we look
1:12:14forward to seeing you out at Chiang Mai
1:12:16and
1:12:18Yeah, I guess to leave things off uh
1:12:20where can people find you or is there
1:12:21anything at all you want to plug or
1:12:23yeah, where can people follow you or
1:12:24whatever? So, I'm on um jamesdooley.com
1:12:28uh is probably the easiest way. So, from
1:12:30there then you can find all my social
1:12:31profiles like Twitter, Instagram,
1:12:33Facebook.
1:12:35Um I'm going to start doing quite a bit
1:12:36more on YouTube um with regards to like
1:12:39making some shorts out of this kind of
1:12:40podcast and stuff like that and any
1:12:42other podcasts.
1:12:43I'm more about trying to create the
1:12:45shorts than doing the long form videos.
1:12:47Um
1:12:48just I think I think people nowadays
1:12:50they're very
1:12:51they want to listen to something for 30
1:12:52seconds and then go. So,
1:12:55Way in the world. Yeah, exactly.
1:12:58Um
1:12:58that's kind of where where I'm going to
1:13:00be on I'm going to be a bit more active
1:13:02on social media and stuff. I've always
1:13:03tried to keep myself to myself from a
1:13:06business standpoint but
1:13:08yeah, with my personal branding I need
1:13:09to talk a little bit more.
1:13:11Awesome. That's probably why people
1:13:12aren't getting stuff done anymore is
1:13:14they've got that 30 minute or 30 second,
1:13:17you know, uh attention span in the
1:13:19morning while they're doing their
1:13:21morning routine and they're like, "Oh,
1:13:22man, I learned so much today. Let me go
1:13:25do whatever now."
1:13:27Awesome. Well, good luck with your uh
1:13:29personal branding uh
1:13:32blitz or whatever you want to call it
1:13:33and yeah, we'll see you out at Chiang
1:13:34Mai, man. Thanks for coming. Yeah. Yeah,
1:13:36see you out at Chiang Mai. Sounds good.
1:13:38Cheers.
1:13:41Hey everyone, thanks for watching. Be
1:13:42sure to check the links below for more
1:13:44info on this topic as well as other cool
1:13:45stuff like SEO case studies, our
1:13:47Facebook community and our link building
1:13:49services. And like always, please like,
1:13:51comment and subscribe if you enjoyed the
1:13:52video. Thanks and happy ranking.

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