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James Burke: Connections, with Robert Krulwich (1996) — Transcript

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0:01foreign
0:03the preservation of an increased access
0:05to the 92nd Street y Humanity's audio
0:07archives is generously funded by the
0:10National Endowment for the humanities
0:14[Applause]
0:22well it's always a bit of a shock to see
0:24oh my cousin Jeff is here tonight
0:29it's always my mother used to when I was
0:32I was not one of the great athletes in
0:34the history of the world but my mother
0:36nevertheless would have a bus that she
0:38would take with uh well it was not it
0:39wasn't so much for the sports I was in
0:41school plays and uh when the cast would
0:45leave the school plays they'd say well
0:46let's get on the crow witch bus because
0:48my mother would
0:50um
0:52you know and you get all that you think
0:54these things would pass you by but no
0:55there's everybody again
0:58uh if you've ever seen the T the tea
1:00show uh connections on PBS or
1:03connections 2 which was on The Learning
1:04Channel
1:05I don't think you'd have any problem
1:06recognizing my guest tonight because
1:08when James Burke is on TV
1:10explaining something and he does explain
1:12things about as well as anyone on TV at
1:14least in the English language uh he's on
1:17TV he shows up at the beginning he's
1:20there in the middle he's between the
1:22beginning and the middle and he's always
1:24towards the end and he's at the end and
1:25he's in everything in between he pops up
1:27he'll shift time he'll jump from one
1:30century to another and he'll be standing
1:31next to Copernicus or somebody and then
1:34the next moment he's in Virginia with
1:35Thomas Jefferson or saba and then boom
1:37he's in Australia and then he's in
1:39London and he just moves about as you'll
1:41see we have yeah because we have these
1:43TV monitors so um he's on TV so much of
1:46the time that and crashing for this and
1:48sort of looking at a lot of his shows I
1:51felt that I have gotten to know him
1:53intimately however
1:54uh what was interesting to me is that in
1:57the shows that I saw and I saw about 11
2:00connections is two things about uh the
2:04about the Earth getting too hot and a
2:07promotional tape for his speaking
2:09aerators or all those tapes he he the
2:12only thing that never changes is his
2:14clothing
2:15he's always
2:16in a white linen here's a it's a pleated
2:19white trouser and uh and I usually oh I
2:23think it has to be a linen shirt so
2:26tonight I was secretly wondering like
2:27and he came dark
2:30here he is for the first time ever the
2:32the darkened James Burke
2:37[Applause]
2:46never before seen in Black
2:51I should say before you say anything
2:53that I forgot to say what you do you're
2:55the author of uh
2:56I'll go out and come back yeah
2:58author of can at least that's the TV
3:01part I mentioned this is the book part
3:02he's done connections which is like the
3:03TV then uh the day the universe changed
3:06the pinball effect which is just out and
3:08you can read him in Scientific American
3:10pretty regularly I think right you're
3:12regular monthly
3:13okay now
3:15uh also you're a speaker as I said could
3:18you just describe to me like where
3:19you've been in the last
3:21seven days
3:23yes uh
3:25Omaha Nebraska
3:27which day seven days ago yes yeah Point
3:29City Michigan
3:31um
3:32Orlando Florida
3:34New York
3:37Phoenix Arizona
3:39did I say Orlando Florida you did dear
3:41dear uh Lawton Oklahoma uh Massachusetts
3:44Boston Massachusetts here
3:47now is this a A peculiar week or is this
3:50no no
3:52what were you doing in all this it's not
3:54a peculi week when I'm in America it
3:55would be a peculiar week in England
3:57because there's no such thing as a
3:58lecture circuit but in America if you're
4:00going to cross the pond you might as
4:01well load every Rift with or you know so
4:04a rather Carlton who's out in the dark
4:07there makes sure that I load every riff
4:09with ore Carlton is the NAT name of your
4:10doorman about the name of your that's a
4:12TV reference name of the man who runs me
4:15over here and uh I generally it's a
4:17place a night yes please sit in hotel
4:21rooms getting bored all right now uh I
4:25think for those of you who have never
4:26seen his television work
4:29um I have to explain to you what he does
4:31and then I'll give you a quick Show and
4:32Tell before we get into the actual
4:33conversations just to bring you all up
4:35and what he does
4:37is he will observe something something
4:39that he sees or something could be in
4:41the present or could be in the distant
4:43past or the recent past and then he just
4:45asks well why is that where did it come
4:48from what set of circumstances brought
4:51it about
4:52and then when he asked that question you
4:54go on an extremely wild apparently
4:57random tour through history at a pace
5:01that actually that dazzles many people
5:03and then you come back to where you
5:05started
5:06it's not really explainable but I'm
5:08going to show you a six minute clip now
5:10is there is this the only TV we have
5:12here oh there are other TVs okay good
5:14one more so but to set it up for those
5:18of you who are slow like me because it
5:19really rushes
5:21um
5:21this starts this particular sequence
5:23starts with a question which is you're
5:25going to see some people having a picnic
5:26in the 1890s and the question that he's
5:28going to ask is uh well is what they're
5:31eating better than what we eat today we
5:33all have a sense that in the past it was
5:35just sort of nicer and better simple
5:36question he knows the answer
5:38but uh
5:41before and this you're only going to see
5:43the first six minutes this is a 20 some
5:44odd minute program
5:46he will refer immediately upon asking
5:48the question to the introduction of the
5:50bicycle in the 1890s which will lead him
5:52to ask what should good girls wear while
5:55riding on bicycle which will lead him to
5:57ask or at least comment on Bloomers the
5:58female garment which will lead him to
6:00exposed ankles which will lead him to
6:02Boots and laces which will lead him to
6:04zippers which will lead him to a
6:06bigamist who makes sewing machines which
6:08will lead him to a quick discussion of
6:09mass production which will lead him to
6:11thinking about interchangeable parts
6:13which will bring him back to the
6:14American Revolution in a particular and
6:15a gun which has interchangeable part
6:17which lead him to Thomas Jefferson who
6:19gets some ideas of interchangeable parts
6:21which he got from a guy in France named
6:23butong who hates everything about
6:24America which leaves President Jefferson
6:26to do something very rude with his
6:28tongue all before your eyes in six
6:31minutes flat so why don't you just see
6:33it and then we'll then you'll know what
6:35he does
6:39so this is from Mario's group here to
6:41put it on at around something like that
6:42and even six minutes is over I'll just
6:43go I'll make a beeping sound or
6:45something and that would be
6:50[Music]
6:59[Music]
7:00no there's nothing wrong with your TV
7:03set
7:06it's just that compared with the Razzle
7:09Dazzle of the modern world the past was
7:11really pretty colorless
7:13and in spite of what you may think the
7:15food in that picnic was monotonous
7:17limited and blabbed
7:24so it's odd that admin today tend to
7:27sell consumables like this
7:30with images of the past like this
7:33[Music]
7:37please
7:42it's all made to look like an age of
7:44Rosy apples farm fresh eggs crusty
7:48loaves Simple Pleasures the way things
7:51used to be the real thing
7:54truth is of course our Foods far
7:57healthier than theirs ever was whatever
7:59the commercial tells you why well that's
8:02what this program's all about
8:04how thanks to a couple of Clues you're
8:07looking at right now we're able these
8:09days to make it all better than the real
8:13thing
8:15foreign
8:20[Applause]
8:22I suppose if the 1990s the 1890s that is
8:27really were naughty one of the reasons
8:30was this piece of immoral technology
8:32I mean back then riding a bike was
8:35playing fast and loose not what nice
8:38boys and good girls did
8:41thanks to the bicycle and the new rubber
8:43tires it was the latest daring thing to
8:45do to go out into the country on a
8:47picnic
8:49before you were married
8:51but a girl still had to stay respectable
8:54which wasn't easy
8:55on a bike
8:58even though some woman in Seneca New
9:00York called Emilia Bloomer had invented
9:03Bloomers to make cycling more
9:04respectable that still left the immoral
9:06matter of visible ankle
9:08so the only way to save your reputation
9:11from getting the boot was getting a boot
9:14which was a royal pain in the lower leg
9:16because it took all day to do up the
9:18laces
9:20until yippee around 1913 an engineer
9:24called sundbach came up with the answer
9:27which Speaking of morals as we were was
9:30great news for a multiple bigamist who
9:33had five simultaneous wives and called
9:35all his daughters Mary so as not to blow
9:38his cover he loved zippers on boots
9:41because this guy made the machines that
9:44made the boots
9:45meet Isaac Merit singer of the sewing
9:49machine of the same name a mechanic
9:52turned actor turned social climber who
9:54beat his women up a real sweetheart but
9:57he made a fortune and built factories
9:59all over the world because he invented
10:01so much down and so much a month
10:04and something else you'll see now
10:07I can't really miss it
10:23okay enough enough you get to Point
10:25Don't You singer was able to keep his
10:28prices down because he made all his
10:30machines out of identical bits made by
10:32identical bitmaking machines that
10:34churned them out by the thousand a
10:36technique with a past as shady as
10:40singers
10:42[Music]
10:48interchangeable parts start in 1810 with
10:51another con man called Whitney when he
10:54does a smoke and mirrors job on Congress
10:56and fools him into thinking he knows she
10:59doesn't how to mass produce something
11:01the US is desperately short of at the
11:03time
11:03guns to fight us British
11:06Whitney's pitches that he knows he
11:09doesn't how to put together the machines
11:11that will make all these guns
11:14one
11:15with possible all fit any gun so
11:20if yours breaks in battle
11:22you just banging a spare
11:24fortunately for him
11:26well before he's due to deliver Thomas
11:29Jefferson comes back from Paris
11:32and tells him how to do it
11:33Jefferson's had this big Row in Paris
11:35but on the side he's met a Frenchman
11:37who's taught him how to design
11:39interchangeable musket parts
11:41ah
11:44Jefferson's Rao in Paris is with this
11:46French scientist called bufor who's
11:48written a book oh hang on
11:51[Music]
11:54anyway buffon's book contains a really
11:57vitriotic attack on America which he's
11:59never actually been to according to
12:01Buffon everything in America is
12:04because it's cold and degenerate
12:07American life forms are inferior to the
12:10French knocking America becomes popular
12:12with other French scientists who've
12:14never been there either and who invent
12:1637 pound Louisiana frogs and everything
12:20American having syphilis
12:22but what Riles Jefferson most is
12:25buffon's remark about all American
12:27animals being smaller than anything
12:28French things have now really hit the
12:31fans so Jefferson tells somebody in
12:33America to mail Buffon a consignment of
12:36large American animals with a note
12:38saying Dem house
12:43[Music]
12:46[Applause]
12:48[Music]
12:51it's a very unfair thing to do to
12:54someone who makes television to make
12:55them see people watch television which
12:57they actually made it's a terrible I'm
12:59suddenly occurred to me I'm sorry it's
13:02like seeing torque approaching with the
13:04Pincers
13:08well I just for the audience and now you
13:10get the sense of it like so the Sim the
13:11question at the beginning was simple
13:12enough so there were these people in the
13:14picnic and they there was something you
13:16said there were Clues before our eyes
13:18there was something that they
13:20didn't have that we have just to we
13:23won't show them the other 19 minutes but
13:25where do we end milk
13:29and what is in milk that that is vital
13:32that they didn't have to go backwards
13:33all the way to the beginning of the
13:34program and I don't remember most of it
13:36what do you say here over here give me a
13:39break yeah I know it's vitamins it's
13:41just that I've wanted to do with
13:43butterflies which is to do with anyway
13:44where did you get this this notion of
13:47sort of I mean there are many ways to
13:49look at the world and look at change in
13:51the world and I I suppose you could look
13:52for good guys and bad guys or but why
13:54did you decide and when did you know
13:57that connecting things was what you want
13:59the way you saw which question would you
14:02like answered first that's the last one
14:03when did I know after I'd done it
14:07so let me answer the first one all right
14:09then please
14:10uh I do it I do that because that's the
14:12way it happens
14:13I think the way you taught history at
14:15school the way you taught all the other
14:16stuff at school is not how it happens
14:17history doesn't happen in straight lines
14:19there's no such thing as a history of
14:20technology or or the history of of
14:22engineering or the history of chemistry
14:24or the history of anything there's a
14:26history of a whole mishmash of
14:27interacting things because a life is a
14:29mishmash of interacting things uh who
14:31knows what's going to happen to each one
14:33of us tonight in some way or other to
14:34change the world so if you're going to
14:37do it please let me know
14:39but uh so that's I mean so that's why I
14:42take that approach why I took it in the
14:45first place because I stole the idea
14:46from somebody else who
14:48well he's dead now so I can talk freely
14:52he's a wonderful man called Lynn White
14:53Jr who was the was even when I knew him
14:56the Emeritus professor of the history of
14:57Science and Technology at UCLA and he
15:00wrote a small monograph that I read in
15:01the bath once we bath rather than shower
15:04a lot in England so you can read books
15:06which you can't under the showers you
15:08know so I'm reading this thing and it's
15:10a small monograph on the social effects
15:12of the introduction of the Stirrup to
15:147th century Europe
15:15and it just blew me away and I rang him
15:17up and said could I parlay this into
15:19something larger and he said I could
15:21never do such a thing but you could
15:24because I'm serious
15:26and I said would you mind if I stole the
15:28idea from you and he said I stole it you
15:30steal it
15:32because it's true there's no such thing
15:33as original thought I mean everything
15:35comes from somewhere else as I hope
15:37these programs that I make show
15:39so I stole the idea from him but since
15:41he's done it from somebody else that's
15:42okay it's it's how historians and people
15:44like me work
15:45uh do you do do you do the research
15:48yourself yeah they give me money to sit
15:50in the British library for a year a year
15:51and a half
15:52and that's the best part
15:55then you get the mechanical stuff of
15:56turning it into that junk yeah
15:59and that's less interesting what happens
16:01I suppose is that people have well you
16:02know because you're in the business
16:03people have their people have their fun
16:05at different stages of production I have
16:07my fun thinking it up and researching it
16:09and writing it then the director has his
16:10fun pointing the camera then the editor
16:12has her fun or his fun remaking what we
16:15thought we were doing and then I get
16:17back in to turn it back into what I
16:18wanted in the first place anyway so I
16:20get two lots of fun when you uh in the
16:23schedule for something like that you you
16:25they only saw a piece but you were in a
16:27park somewhere and then you uh before
16:32that you're all over the place how long
16:34does that take to do and do you do
16:36several of them at the same time oh yes
16:37and that's why
16:39thanks to the rude remarks I'd never
16:40change my clothes yes
16:45I mean uh what it is what it is what
16:48happens is that you logistically uh
16:50you um you you you write the whole thing
16:54I mean you write all the programs before
16:55you start and then you sit down with
16:58with the map and with pins and you look
16:59at where you cannot afford to go you
17:01know you say we really ought to shoot
17:03this bit in Ulan Bator but all the way
17:06down by tour for a one minute sequence
17:07is not going to pay you know so why
17:09don't we do it in uh Okefenokee you know
17:12and rewrite to make it fit because we'll
17:14be near Okefenokee that day anyway so
17:16you really structure the thing from a
17:17logistic point of view and and you go to
17:21that place and you do all the sequences
17:23from all the programs in that place and
17:25and you don't go to a place unless it
17:27has more than one sequence to be shot in
17:28it otherwise it doesn't make logistic
17:30sense
17:32events I mean if you go far enough
17:34sideways somebody's brother-in-law or
17:35sister's cousin would have been in
17:36somewhere that you want to be so yeah
17:38you tell us we don't have any choice
17:40it's a matter of you know and how long
17:42does it take to to shoot yeah it took it
17:45takes eight weeks to shoot one hour
17:48so to shoot one hour yeah so four weeks
17:51to shoot half an hour that is eight
17:53weeks eight because we're British eight
17:56times five working days
17:58well maybe six so I can do it it takes
18:01about 40 it takes about 45 days to shoot
18:04one hour of television
18:06and when you're sitting at the
18:07typewriter or whatever the word
18:08processor and you're writing a sentence
18:10you know it was done in Beijing when the
18:13emperor looked to the sky under the BBC
18:16rules of thumb does that mean that
18:17you're going to now have to find a Dawn
18:19and it'll have to be in Beijing and then
18:21you will have to look up and then if you
18:22just simply rewrite it you can switch
18:24location and everything no no no because
18:26no no so you've got to be more sensible
18:28than that you do the research you
18:29discover where things actually happened
18:31then you do backups for where they could
18:33have happened might have happened or
18:34almost happened and then you fit them
18:36together and then you know you can
18:38afford to go to the place and you know
18:40that since the story would like you to
18:41have a dawn in Beijing and you can
18:43afford to go to Beijing because there's
18:44five other sequences from six other
18:45programs then you say well we'll be in
18:47Beijing so then you can say it was it is
18:50Dawn and Beijing somewhere a bell rings
18:52when you know you can always put the
18:53Bell on from sound effect so that's okay
18:55what you can't do is have dawn happen if
18:58it isn't I mean if it's raining like
18:59hell or whatever so on the spot you say
19:01you know
19:02the weather in Beijing is often contrary
19:05[Laughter]
19:07and you write on the wing as it were on
19:10on the on the hoof or whatever you say
19:11here yes
19:13um and that's how it happens yes have
19:14you uh have you begun to form are you
19:17beginning to convince yourself I mean
19:18you say that change does indeed take
19:20place this way but I'm just curious now
19:23that you've done enough of these
19:25um
19:25how would you describe how change has
19:28taken place in the world what is the
19:30driving force there is no driving force
19:33there is no pattern there is no plan and
19:35there is no design and there's no way of
19:37second guessing it and you learn nothing
19:39from looking back at history except it's
19:40going to be more of the same
19:46[Laughter]
19:49well let me uh let's just take a trip
19:51can I or we can pick that apart yes all
19:53right I want to uh because because that
19:56more or less is what happens I thought
19:57because I was just puzzling about how to
19:59do this I have uh
20:00I have charted one of your your analyzes
20:03oh dear but this will you'll be able to
20:06remember because I just read it so if
20:07you have any trouble remembering it
20:09this is a connections program and just
20:12to show you just what happens and
20:14because this is a a fairly lengthy set
20:16of connections it occupies a large part
20:18of this toilet roll it begins one of
20:20your toilet roll uh it's a sorry it's a
20:23uh a towel a paper towel
20:26it begins with a man named Charles
20:27nestler
20:29who is Charles nestler and he has a
20:31sister a Charles nestler invented the
20:33permanent wave because his sister had uh
20:35straight hair head straight hair okay so
20:38now Charles is one day looking out the
20:41window apparently he says he looked out
20:43the window one day after a particularly
20:44do dewy night and noticed that the
20:47clothesline had had developed wrinkles
20:49in it which did not go away when the
20:52thing when the thing dried out and it
20:53gave him an idea for wetting and then
20:55drying hair as long as there was
20:58something in the hair to make it keep
20:59its shape your turn we've not done this
21:02before no
21:04now by the way I should say that Charles
21:06nestler was not in the habit perhaps of
21:08worrying about his sister's hair he just
21:09happened to look out the window none of
21:11these things were planned and he was a
21:13hairdresser oh
21:15is that important to you well
21:19but he was looking at a clothesline not
21:21every hairdresser makes connections
21:22between clotheslines in here anyway 1806
21:25there's no two you've got plenty of time
21:26to do nothing else
21:27so he comes up with a with a plan can
21:30you just briefly describe what he does
21:32to his sister and to others yeah yeah he
21:34uh he he soaks her hair with Borax and
21:38then dries it early on with uh with
21:41heated rollers and later on with
21:42electrically heated rollers and when he
21:44takes the stuff off she's got permanent
21:47waves now what why did he choose borax
21:50because it was cheap because it was
21:52cheap and how did he know about Borax
21:54because it had recently been discovered
21:55in Death Valley California by the
21:57zillion ton
21:59by some miners it's further down
22:04will teach you to put too much detail on
22:05there okay
22:07Death Valley California yes very cheap
22:09okay the Death Valley miners who many of
22:12whom left the California Gold Rush when
22:13the gold digging ran out and went
22:15looking for a grub steak and had found
22:18it now the people who had started the
22:20Gold Rush were the people in Death
22:21Valley California who'd gone to fellow
22:23California yes Gold Rush actually began
22:25at Sutter's Mill just up the river from
22:28Sacramento when this guy who was a real
22:31weird person who I think left several
22:33wives behind in Europe and and said he
22:36was a things like an officer of the
22:38King's Guard a member of the royal
22:40Russian something or other and a Swiss
22:43guy and it was none of them it was a
22:44total con man set up a thing called
22:46Setters Fort and attempted to sort of um
22:49uh get money out of the people
22:51emigrating in their wagons to California
22:53by giving selling them things at
22:54exorbitant prices when they arrived you
22:56know having survived the Indians and so
22:57on and anyway that one of his guys comes
22:59in one day and says look what I found
23:01and it turned out to be gold and that
23:04starts the gold rush now how did people
23:07once they wanted to be part of the Gold
23:09Rush gets to California they got to
23:11California either across country which
23:13was a foolish way to do it because most
23:15of you died and it was very very
23:17uncomfortable and took for ages and the
23:18fast way was where you're holding up
23:19which was an onboarder clipper ship
23:21which went round the horn and took only
23:23a number of weeks instead of a number of
23:24months clipper ships however had become
23:27more and more successful and important
23:29in international trade for what event
23:31bringing tea from China to England am I
23:34passing it yesterday you're doing great
23:36I just think three years ago
23:39well that's why I thought that I could
23:40certainly help you out here thank you
23:41thank you thank you got the script on
23:43the back yes
23:45do you know that don't you so uh the
23:48Potato Famine in in Ireland had what to
23:50do with anything well the point about
23:52the Tipper ships being allowed to bring
23:53tea to our Spritz was up until then the
23:57things called the Navigation Act passed
23:59in the 17th century by the British
24:00general most European powers said you
24:03want to bring stuff to our country you
24:04bring it in our ships with our crews and
24:06then of course later on the ideal thing
24:08would be to set up colonies which we did
24:09over here so that our colonies could
24:12only send their stuff to us in our ships
24:13at our prices sorry you know so and and
24:16this there was a great with the
24:18Industrial Revolution making it possible
24:20to sell many more things if you could
24:21only open up the market there was a big
24:23free trade market going well free trade
24:25movement going and and what really gave
24:28it a big push was the was it Potato
24:30Famine that killed too many people in
24:32Ireland and the English couldn't
24:34possibly feed the survivors so laws were
24:37passed special law to passed to allow
24:39American ships to bring grain across so
24:41American ships who had been here before
24:42prohibited yes know it now coming to
24:45bring grain to feed the Irish ironic
24:48since it was from America that the
24:50disease came which killed all the Irish
24:52now it's true the fungus I'm talking
24:54about it's these some of these little
24:56junctures are interesting to me like
24:58we go from the gold rush let's see we
25:00have Sutter at Sutter's Mill then the
25:01Gold Rush then the fastest way to
25:02California is by clippership and the
25:03Clipper ship is held by the Potato
25:04Famine the Potato Famine feeds these
25:06poor Irish people and then the British
25:07workers which we haven't gotten to yet
25:08but now couldn't you take just as likely
25:11a tangent off like couldn't we just go
25:12and just go off in some completely
25:14different direction had you it been felt
25:17like it yeah yes
25:19of course
25:21that's why it's better than real work
25:27all right let's keep it going linearly
25:28because I have a linear piece of paper
25:30here
25:30so yeah it's not supposed to be a linear
25:33this you know no
25:37in the book He's just published you
25:38don't have to go in the direction that
25:41the towel takes you you can he has in
25:44the margins of his new book I guess the
25:47equivalent of what on computers would be
25:50hypertextures a place to Simply leap to
25:52another place altogether and he's done
25:54it uh
25:56they're called
25:58by the way have you have you ever have
26:00you met people who've bought the book
26:01and read it have they used the system or
26:03do they still read the book straight
26:04through like ordinary people uh one or
26:06two nerds have said they did it what are
26:10they called over here Geeks completed
26:12computer people do it but no ordinary
26:14people just read the book yeah I think
26:16all right well let's keep going because
26:17it's just interesting to see how it
26:18turns out in the in this particular
26:20direction yes sorry by the trade uh
26:22thing yes now we have a potato famine
26:25we've just bring in the clipper ships in
26:27to give the Irish men and women some
26:29food
26:30now what well the thing is that to
26:33change the law about about bringing corn
26:35in meant that when we had some bad
26:37Harvest there was an extra push here to
26:39change the Corn Laws and allow us us to
26:41buy American coin laws were the laws
26:42that was it prevented well it said that
26:44any time we run out of corn because it's
26:46a bad harvest in Britain we can import
26:47corn but it has to be at the price of
26:49the local corn would be if we had corn
26:51right
26:52you call it tariff barriers these days
26:55yes and it keeps your jobs and all that
26:57stuff so that's what that big sort of
27:00free trade movement was all about now
27:01there were many people who felt that
27:03that Brits should be able to eat
27:05American corn as at a lower price they
27:08oppose the Corn Laws and now we get to
27:10something about stamps
27:12well the reason the Corn Laws got passed
27:14in the Freehold free trade movement
27:16succeeded was because it happened to
27:17coincide exactly with the introduction
27:19of the first postage stamp and so the
27:22the lobbyists if you like what does the
27:24postage stamp have to do with coin laws
27:26well it has to if you want them passed
27:28and you want to get the message out and
27:29you get supported in Parliament by by
27:32what do you call it scatter gunning uh
27:34these days you'd send you'd send a mail
27:36shot out wouldn't you this is the first
27:38ever male shot and that's why the real
27:40shot is a britishism for a large direct
27:42mailing to people yes okay yes
27:44okay I thought I was speaking American
27:49coincided with a postage stamp and
27:51therefore the people were able to get
27:52the law changed so fast because they did
27:54whatever you said so now the postage
27:57stamp was printed by somebody from
27:58Newburyport Massachusetts named Jacob
28:00Perkins I just put that in for the flag
28:02he learned his technique of how to print
28:04from somebody who had been making chints
28:06on Cotton
28:08printing printing from which they had
28:11used a gum that was obtained from
28:14Senegal yes well no not as easily as
28:16that no I mean the point is that the
28:18thing about if you put the the trick of
28:21the new trick of printing on Cotton was
28:23done with with metal rollers and the
28:25problem about Metal rollers is if you
28:26put paint on it drips off right so so
28:29the the fact that it didn't drip off was
28:31because it had this extra agent in it
28:34made of what you've just mentioned
28:36Senegal gum yes fine so the Senegal gum
28:38kept the paint from slipping and sliding
28:40across
28:41now the as it happens Senegal this is
28:45one of those terms where I felt maybe
28:46it's like pitch of desperation here
28:48Senegal just happens to be owned by
28:49France at the time well no it's not
28:52owned by France or it's colonized it's
28:54about to be owned by France okay that
28:57you know I suppose you could say a lot
28:58of things are about to be owned by
28:59France and furniture or whatever but it
29:01turns out to be Senegal so Senegal yeah
29:03but except the gum comes from Senegal it
29:05doesn't come from anywhere else okay it
29:07comes from trees in Senegal but the
29:08French Connection to senegales just to
29:10King Louis XIV who happens to be the
29:12head of France who's busy in digging
29:13canals and improving things well no no
29:16uh
29:18Colbert one of his financial controllers
29:20decides to kick the French economy back
29:23into higher gear by bring out tax
29:24incentives you know you go out and
29:26explore places and bring me back things
29:27that we can sell from France outwards
29:29and I'll give you all sorts of
29:30monopolies and tax reductions and blah
29:32blah blah and a bunch of people go into
29:33Africa and come back with various things
29:35including Senegal gum
29:37now while the people are busy improving
29:39things in France they happen to be
29:41develop techniques which are useful in
29:43not don't go too far oh digging canals
29:46digging Canal the other thing well
29:48Colbert says listen if I'm going to get
29:50all this stuff pouring in from abroad in
29:51our new colonies whatever else I get
29:53going we're going to have to move it
29:54around the country and we've you know
29:56move things along and get the economy
29:57going in high gear the infrastructure is
29:58no damn good so he starts he designs and
30:01gets built a number of canals all over
30:03France to make it easier to transport
30:04stuff around because the roads are
30:06Dreadful okay that's why we have digging
30:08canals and while they're digging they
30:09come up with something that I've
30:10described here as
30:12I can't read it backwards laying Siege
30:15laying seeds well one of the people who
30:17builds one of the greatest canals in
30:19France on which you can still go boating
30:20and have a wonderful time and it's a
30:21great holiday called the canal do midi
30:23which joins the Atlantic to the
30:26Mediterranean from as it were Bordeaux
30:28down to near Marseille P.S look that's a
30:31clever trick because what happened is
30:32once before it used to go all around
30:33around Spain and when you went through
30:35the Gibraltar Straits you had to pay
30:38taxes for going through Spanish made all
30:40the money so now the French make all the
30:42money that's one of the reasons so one
30:43of the guys who builds this canal helps
30:45to build a canals a man called Volvo
30:46volvon does various things he's a
30:49marshal of France great military
30:50engineer he invented at the socket
30:52bayonet and Siege Warfare
30:55when you're doing this and you're in the
30:57British Museum and you hit the siege
30:58Warfare co-bear somewhere after Francois
31:00do you get tired or do you just go right
31:02off
31:06well the alternative is too often to
31:08contemplate
31:09like real work go back to teaching never
31:13all right so in an effort to avoid that
31:15anywhere we're nearly finished we should
31:17tell it we're nearly finished
31:19I don't know are we enjoying this or no
31:22no quick quick I am not okay
31:26well so now the guy who's invented who
31:28does The Siege thing he seems to show up
31:30again in the American in in Yorktown the
31:32first time vauban Siege technique was
31:34used with cataclysmic effect was it the
31:36siege of Yorktown when in our Revolution
31:38when we lost you lost
31:41nothing wrong with taxation without
31:43representation
31:45the BBC would not function without it
31:48the fact that the American Revolution
31:50was won by the Americans caused those
31:52who supported the king to flee among
31:54those who fled was a man named Abraham
31:58and we're getting close to a real
32:00problem here because you didn't start at
32:01the beginning of the program with this
32:02toilet roll oh no no because what
32:05happens no no what happens before
32:06nessler is a sequence in which we we are
32:08on the QE2 which is which is the the
32:11first ship with a totally modern
32:12wonderful wonderful wonderful
32:14hairdressing Salon okay that's how the
32:16program begins
32:19you know it was actually on the earlier
32:21attempt of the toilet roll but I felt
32:25so so now the this Tori flees he goes up
32:28to Halifax his name is Abraham kunders
32:30yeah and who is Abraham kunders is one
32:33of the many people who are on our side
32:34during what you call the revolution
32:36now we call the revolution you call the
32:38war of independence and and uh many of
32:40us through ran away I mean like 40 60
32:43000 of us uh were many of us were taught
32:45and feathered lynched hence that man
32:47Lynch who did most of it uh a judge in
32:50Virginia I believe and we were treated
32:52rather badly and I think probably a
32:53third of us or more if we'd been polled
32:55properly uh were in favor of not
32:57breaking off from the mother country but
32:59never that live that where it fell
33:00anyway so 60 000 of them or or just
33:03under run away and the I mean this tells
33:07you how desperate they are they go to
33:08Nova Scotia
33:10and they settle in Nova Scotia one of
33:12them is just chapunders who had a
33:14fishing fleet in Philadelphia which was
33:17of course expropriated by all you nasty
33:19Rebels and he was chucked out without a
33:21penny and he decided there were so many
33:23other people fleeing up the coast to uh
33:27Nova Scotia that he'd start a little
33:29Fleet again so he started little Fleet
33:30and then he heard about the postage
33:32stamp in the beginning of the the postal
33:35uh boats across the Atlantic and he
33:36thought here's a good trick so he
33:37started going across the Atlantic the
33:39only problem is that somehow his name
33:42his name was got somebody got his name
33:44wrong or rather his father's name wrong
33:46no his name wrong and uh this book his
33:49name Cunard instead of kunders and guess
33:51who earns a QE too
33:53so you end up then with the the program
33:56does end and it's an absolute fairness
33:58it does begin with a hair salon and a
34:00lady in the QE2 and there is a hair
34:01salon on the QE2 which is owned by Mr
34:04Kennard and so forth and so forth and so
34:05forth so now the among the many lessons
34:08of this to me is that
34:11anything is possible how do you defend
34:13to yourself the the a to b d d back to
34:17anus of it when you realize that you
34:19could go anywhere in any direction you
34:21like how do you
34:23decide well as God did for example in
34:25the first five days and it was good
34:29well that's what you say
34:31[Laughter]
34:33we're in the why we all think this
34:40well first of all uh you the Mandate the
34:44Mandate on television I mean don't
34:46forget I come from the good old BBC and
34:49the good old BBC always says to you
34:51don't ever ask what the audience wants
34:53give it give it them give them what you
34:56like and if they don't like it you'll be
34:58out of work
34:59but if they do like it you're being like
35:01Flynn
35:02so
35:04first of all I like doing it that way
35:06and second of all I believe with a bit
35:09of teaching experience behind me that
35:10one of the best ways to inform people is
35:13to entertain them and to entertain them
35:16in this in us in a way that will
35:18continue to trap their attention I
35:20suppose with uh Cliffhanger surprises
35:23jokes and so on so these are standard
35:25teaching techniques as for which road
35:28you follow since there is no path
35:29there's no true single path through
35:32history it doesn't matter which road I
35:34follow as long as it teaches my audience
35:37um something about the way things happen
35:40and it does so entertainingly and
35:42amusingly and surprisingly then the
35:44chances are they'll stay to the end and
35:46then I'll keep my job
35:48have you noticed a difference culturally
35:50between the American audience and the
35:53British audience
35:54just how they receive the information
35:56how they hear
35:58yes an enormous difference
36:00um uh I have to make generalizations
36:02because you've asked a very general
36:03question Americans Americans are
36:06entirely unlike the British and that the
36:08British believe that they cannot be
36:09improved
36:12and there is a tremendously powerful
36:15tradition in America of self-improvement
36:17uh it comes I suppose from Frontier Days
36:21um and also because your Society is much
36:23more open than ours if you improve
36:25yourself by going to a university or by
36:27working hard and making money or
36:28whatever you'll get probably out of life
36:30what you want out of life if you want to
36:32end up being the president you probably
36:34will be uh for a rise above 80 of my
36:37Society no matter what you want you're
36:38not going to get it our society has many
36:40more closed doors in it than yours does
36:42so I think part of your Dynamic is this
36:44is this openness this awareness that
36:47anybody can be come can become what
36:49they're capable of becoming there are no
36:51artificial constraints well of course
36:53there are some but nothing like as many
36:55as there are in Europe
36:56so I think Americans approach this kind
36:59of
37:02uh harangue of mine in a much more open
37:05much more open mind I get a lot of flack
37:07in England from academics for being a
37:09charlatan yes that is true
37:12um but too bad
37:15I'll tell you there's another I mean I
37:17did a show in Britain called The Late
37:19Show for a while which is a very very
37:21highbrow program very very and I was uh
37:25I was extremely surprised by how they
37:28projected their television needs they
37:31I'll tell you one short story because
37:34I'm interested to hear your reaction to
37:36it because you seem to break all of the
37:37rules as they stated them I was in a
37:40taxi cab they wanted me to do a
37:42promotion for this show
37:44and so they put me in a taxi in the back
37:46seat and they had a Pakistani American
37:48New York taxi cab driver in the front
37:50seat a cameraman on the right and my
37:52director on they're sitting on my right
37:54I can't remember is going to shoot me
37:56and the uh yes driver
37:58and I was told to promote the show sell
38:01the show so I said
38:03somewhat enthusiastically well on our
38:05show we're gonna and the woman next to
38:06me said sorry Robert
38:09um could you do half that I said what
38:11you said could you do half that I said
38:13half of that she goes yeah so I went
38:15down and I said very quietly to the guy
38:18in the front seat I said
38:20we have a show I think you might like it
38:22it's going to be just Robert oh yes just
38:24could you do half that
38:27so I went down another notch and I sat
38:30way back in the chair and I barely I
38:32said well we have a program uh the
38:35guests such as Robert I said no she says
38:38could you do half that I said just for
38:40the fun so I then did my version of
38:43someone who was barely alive
38:47and to that she said Brio which was her
38:49highest word yes Phil and they actually
38:52used that from which I would I designed
38:55that people who watch British television
38:58at least highbrow British television
38:59prefer absolutely no energy or Pander or
39:05cell in it yet you are working very
39:07energetically in your program as a
39:09teacher would well yes but then you see
39:11the program you were working for was on
39:13BBC Two
39:14that's the intellectual Channel and my
39:16work is for BBC One which is a mass
39:17Channel if I were working for BBC Two I
39:21too would look totally bored with the
39:24material
39:25because that's the tradition
39:28and and it it it's really terribly bad
39:31form to be enthusiastic in England one
39:34one just isn't you know
39:37so that's why people call me a charlatan
39:40and a seller of snake oil and other
39:42things not not my thank heavens not the
39:45mass audience crowd that my mandate is
39:47for
39:47but
39:48um people in second level academics do
39:52it because first level academics don't
39:54need to protect themselves
39:56as much as second level academics the
39:58other ones that will tell you nothing
39:59because if they give it to you've got
40:00nothing left
40:02well let me take it from another point
40:03of view in America we have in journalism
40:05a very right now anyway a very big news
40:08you can use sort of sensibility and I in
40:12your book your new book you say this is
40:14interesting to me see um
40:16it is good for survival and success in
40:18life to second guess change that you see
40:22about you what did you mean by second
40:23guess uh forecast I suppose be aware
40:27that it's coming or that it is around
40:29you or that what it is that you are or
40:31have or do is not necessarily going to
40:34be there forever or indeed the values
40:36your spouse
40:38or the things you earn or the aims you
40:41strive for will not necessarily be
40:43always the ones that society would
40:45either ex let you do or or admire you
40:49for doing whatever in other words that
40:51that
40:53the the safest thing for survival is to
40:56be aware that if you stand still for too
40:57long something will eat you
41:00jungle jungly speaking as it were you
41:02know nature wise
41:04and do you because you spend so much
41:06time looking backwards and sidewards do
41:08you have a sense a heightened sense of
41:10forecasting this do you think no no no
41:15I don't think so uh I don't see how you
41:18can I mean the harder you plan the more
41:20likely it is you'll screw up
41:22I mean because the trouble is you know
41:24we live in such an interactive society
41:26that that the you know you push your new
41:30idea out the front door and something
41:31runs over it immediately uh you know you
41:34try to set something in concrete and
41:36somebody's made the sound so that it
41:37won't set there are too many other
41:39people out there with their own plans
41:40for the future to make it easy for yours
41:42to become what it's going to be no I
41:45suppose if I've learned anything from
41:46from 20 years of doing this kind of
41:49stuff is it
41:50is that the worst thing you can do is to
41:53say
41:54um there's only one right way to do
41:55things
41:56and there's only one acceptable way to
41:58do things
41:59because you're almost always going to be
42:00approved wrong
42:02so it's safer to hang as Loose as
42:04possible what about teaching
42:07since you're not teaching anymore you
42:09don't want to go back to teaching and
42:10you are really teaching on television
42:11what does the what you've done on
42:13television tell you about how kids
42:15are taught and learned
42:18huh I wonder how many teachers are out
42:20there in the dark with knives
42:22well I used to be in the trenches so I
42:25suppose I can say the the biggest
42:28problem I think from from doing this
42:29kind of work is
42:31and spending so much time as I do with
42:33technology and science is that there is
42:36no way whatsoever that most of the
42:38social institutions and especially
42:39education can keep up with the speed
42:41with which Science and Technology brings
42:42change
42:44and I don't see how they could keep up
42:46but the marketplace moves faster than
42:48any any public institution could
42:49possibly move
42:51and anyway the public institution
42:52depends on the spin-off from the market
42:54I.E taxpayers money
42:56and uh so there's a constant lag there I
42:59think between above all the educational
43:00institutions and what Science and
43:02Technology are doing to us so there's
43:05that dichotomy there already so I
43:07suppose what I'm saying is that um is
43:09that our schools are in general still
43:11teaching uh something which is already
43:13obsolete which is
43:15uh learn by memorization
43:18a skill that you will have for a
43:20lifetime that's already gone it's too
43:22late we shouldn't be teaching people
43:23that anymore
43:25since the data you memorize today is
43:27probably obviously before you can write
43:28in right use it in your examination and
43:31certainly before you start to use it to
43:32any real extent in the in the adult
43:34world of work
43:35so uh that's my observation online and
43:39what the insurance schools do
43:41well I have a biased view of course
43:45I think that when Gutenberg invented the
43:48printing press we didn't teach kids to
43:50bind books we taught them to read as
43:52fast as possible so I suppose what
43:54schools ought to do is not what schools
43:56ought to do it's what we ought to do
43:57it's a political decision not Party
43:59politics but in a very general sense
44:00what we ought to do is to pass the kinds
44:02of laws that would make it possible to
44:04get this kind of Technology into schools
44:06as fast as possible I think we're in
44:08going through a an extremely dangerous
44:11and potentially turbulent transition
44:13period in terms of what this technology
44:15is going to do to us in the next 20 or
44:1730 years if we don't do this and what I
44:19would like to see is first of all the
44:20kind of tax breaks I know there are
44:22complicated arguments against this but I
44:25mean you know a couple of three years
44:26ago Z French decided that not enough
44:28people in France were buying is
44:29different motor cars and so they brought
44:32out a law that said all French motor
44:33cars were now from Tomorrow cost 15 less
44:36and everybody bought French Motorcars
44:38all right it's a short-term view but it
44:40did something temporarily important now
44:42if you did that kind of thing to get
44:44this kind of Technology into the school
44:45fast yes it's a short-term View and
44:47maybe the company goes bus but the kids
44:48have got the stuff you know and what
44:50stuff is that I'm talking about I'm
44:53talking about try I
44:55I won't name any names but some of your
44:57senior politicians talk in terms of the
44:59the information superhighway being in
45:01schools by the year 2000 well by the
45:03year 2000 you know
45:05nine out of ten scores in this country
45:07don't have a telephone line to to use
45:09the internet with and most of them are
45:11using Apple twos
45:13and for those of you who don't know what
45:14an Apple 2 is the kind of Flint tool
45:16equivalent of the Apple so
45:19so it's very important to get just get
45:21the technology there and then I think
45:23what we ought to be doing is to teach is
45:25to be is to be giving little kids and
45:26maybe even freshmen at College uh rides
45:29on the web now I say I'm biased because
45:31I've been building a web for the last
45:32two or three years and at the moment it
45:34has about 2400 nodes on it each one of
45:36which has about six four to six exit
45:38points so that imagine the number of
45:40ways you can go through this web
45:43um because I think it's very important
45:45to give first of all to give people an
45:46idea of the relevance of what it is they
45:48know to other things in life even if
45:50it's only with a silly way that I do it
45:51so that if you're a chemistry major you
45:53know that chemistry matters to
45:54somebody's breakfast or their toilet or
45:57their airplane I mean because these
45:59things do matter and that chemistry
46:01isn't something that is you know the
46:02reductionist way of teaching teaches you
46:04that it's very important to know more
46:05and more about less and less you know as
46:07a few of people know about something
46:08more valuable it is and and if nobody
46:11can understand what you say boy are you
46:13powerful you know I mean these days to
46:15say anything you've got to have a PhD or
46:17tenure you know talk about anything
46:19which is why I get called a charlatan
46:21so so I would get these I would get the
46:23webs out to these kids and say okay
46:25Journey there was a there was a uh for a
46:28number of years up at Brown before they
46:30of course inevitably ran out of money
46:31and it didn't get any more there was a
46:33wonderful experiment going on and they
46:35got as far as being able to get little
46:36kids in
46:37sit them down in front of a terminal and
46:39say I can't remember but let's pretend
46:41do a term paper about Jonathan Swift
46:43well you know immediately they all go
46:46but then you're on the screen you put
46:48Jonathan Swift a little funny face of
46:49Jonathan Swift and then you put things
46:51like bananas and earache and eating
46:53babies and a few other things like that
46:55and some kid or other will say hmm that
46:58looks kind of interesting and they
46:59button that and they go on through there
47:01and somebody could chooses this exit
47:03point and then you take them through a
47:04web in which they keep on saying this is
47:06interesting you give them a
47:07constellation of choices each time so
47:09they can choose one of about eight ways
47:10to go from there on
47:11and each time they appear to be choosing
47:14fairly randomly but in fact what you do
47:16is you structure the web so carefully
47:18that they can take what appears to be a
47:20random Journey but in fact as they go
47:21through the web they go through a number
47:23of nodes of information that you want
47:25them to go through so when they get to
47:26the other end they will have done a
47:28journey of their own idiosyncratic
47:30making which gives them kicks and
47:31excitement and yet they come out the
47:33other end knowing what you want them to
47:34know but having done it themselves by
47:36themselves you end up getting term
47:38papers that are tremendously difficult
47:40to mark because these guys are giving
47:42you original research almost I mean it's
47:44a hell of a job for the teacher but the
47:47people at Brown said they couldn't tear
47:49the kids off the terminals they became
47:51addicted to this way of doing things and
47:53and the thing you want them to know is
47:56how to identify how to find patterns in
47:58varieties of experience
48:01no a number of a number of things I mean
48:03if you have if the web is big enough of
48:05course the web has everything on it
48:06because I believe obviously that
48:08everything is linked to everything else
48:09uh so that if you were for example going
48:11to do a degree in Quantum chromodynamics
48:13at your University you would be obliged
48:16to cross the web to get to it and you'd
48:18spend your first year crossing the web
48:19to get to Quantum Electronics by the
48:21time you got to Quantum chromodynamics
48:23you would have crossed that web in so
48:25many ways that you couldn't miss the
48:27relevance of the subject you were about
48:28to spend three years majoring in
48:30it would have a place it would have a
48:32social it would have a epistemological
48:34it would have a an ethical it would have
48:37many many many relativenesses that you
48:39would have experienced as a result of
48:41spending a year in your first freshman
48:43year traveling the web in various ways
48:45to get to this Wormhole into which you
48:47would then go and close yourself like a
48:49good reductionist for three years and
48:51learn a great deal about nothing
48:54well or something like that
48:57um before I go to questions I want to uh
48:59we have silly questions please no no not
49:02yet
49:03um
49:04what about uh you also say in the in
49:07introduction of your book that uh maybe
49:09we should be changing our definitions of
49:11intelligence
49:13how well
49:16I come from a culture
49:18where
49:19about 15 percent of us go to higher
49:22education as far as I recall the last
49:24time I looked at the figures about 50
49:25something percent of you do so that
49:27means that in my culture there's a whole
49:29bunch of people out there who are never
49:30going to get a chance to go to higher
49:31education they're intelligent enough
49:32there's just no room no place isn't no
49:34money
49:35you're rich I mean democracy is an
49:38expensive thing
49:39so
49:41uh
49:43our our the present definition of
49:45intelligence which is can you remember
49:46things and regurgitate them in order to
49:49pass an examination and that this is the
49:51right answer and that's the wrong answer
49:52that's okay
49:55except that of course what it does is
49:56exclude people who can't pass exams or
49:58who have lousy memories and I know many
50:00of them and and uh and it and it really
50:03presupposes that the only way to test
50:05intelligence is first of all by memory
50:06and second of all by a linear kind of
50:08thinking any other kind of thinking is
50:10too difficult to test as I've just been
50:11saying with view to the web it's
50:13terrible it's a tremendous
50:14responsibility on a teacher to use
50:16webbing rather than memory as a test
50:18because it's easy to test a kid if all
50:20you do is right wrong right wrong right
50:21wrong nine out of ten pass one out of
50:24ten fail the trouble is that's an
50:26inadequate test if somebody's
50:27intelligence we've all got 100 billion
50:29neurons I mean Einstein said we're all
50:31born with magnificent brains which
50:33formal education slowly destroys
50:36I think he was right in the sense that
50:38what it does what we do with this way of
50:40approaching things is to say
50:42intelligence is going to be memory and
50:44if you're no good at that particular
50:45kind of working then you must be
50:48unintelligent which is self-evident
50:49garbage
50:51that means all
50:53societies anywhere in the world that
50:55can't pass these tests are stupid
50:58say no more
51:02all right
51:04why don't you ask silly questions
51:07how about are there questions from the
51:09audience if you want yep
51:28thank you what influences when did I
51:31realize I had an unorthodox approach
51:32when a major newspaper critic described
51:35my work as garbage
51:39which happened very shortly after I
51:40started doing this kind of work because
51:41Brits don't like this stuff very much
51:44uh couldn't it must mustn't it have
51:46started when you were like six or seven
51:48or eight I mean instead of waiting well
51:50I was going to go on to the second part
51:51of the question was when did when did I
51:52start thinking like that no I don't
51:53think so no I am
51:57um
52:00well I suppose it might have done but
52:02you see it was identified as being a bad
52:03student in those days or having a
52:05butterfly mind or cannot concentrate or
52:07could do better you know all that stuff
52:09they write in your report so who knows
52:11all those bad marks I got were
52:12indication that I was in her a
52:14non-reductionist genius but schools
52:16aren't schools aren't can't qualify you
52:18in that you see so I was a very bad
52:20student until right at the very last
52:21minute I got into Oxford I mean just
52:23completely terrible student
52:25um how did you get to Oxford being a bad
52:28student if after all they cut off people
52:31oh because in those days I don't know if
52:32it's like that now but Oxford is a very
52:34strange place you went up and and they
52:36gave you essays on things that you
52:38weren't trained to write about I mean
52:39you know you'd say well I want to go and
52:41study medieval English and they'd say
52:43Okay
52:44um
52:45is killing ever Justified right for one
52:49hour please and you'd write and then
52:51they'd ask and then you go and they'd
52:53say have you read
52:55uh Heidegger and you'd say a couple of
52:58words and they'd say well does high
53:00Digger relate to anything you've said
53:01can you and that kind of and then they'd
53:03say fine you're in I don't know how I
53:06passed
53:07but it was that kind of experience I
53:09think it's much more by the book now
53:11anyway it used to be like that but but
53:13to go back to things I think probably
53:14the first time it started being like
53:16this I I when I started working for the
53:18BBC I joined a program I mean it was
53:21could have been any program because I
53:22just wanted to be desperately get out of
53:24teaching and I was offered a job with a
53:26magazine format program called
53:28Tomorrow's World guess what about
53:30technology and it was a kind of shop
53:31window show
53:33um 30 minutes of each one 30 minutes of
53:36six or seven short items about some new
53:39Gizmo look at this isn't this wonderful
53:41you know excuse me and after a number of
53:43years of this first of all I began to be
53:45crucifyingly it was crucifyingly boring
53:47and and second of all I began to think
53:49well this doesn't mean anything you know
53:51now I didn't think it was because I was
53:53particularly adept
53:55or clever
53:57um
53:59because most people on television aren't
54:00I just got in there just ahead of
54:02anybody else I suppose
54:04um but I'm pinballing around as you do
54:06on those kinds of programs and indeed
54:08your work too you never know who you're
54:09going to talk to do you
54:11I mean
54:12uh you know you suddenly think
54:15I wonder if there's I wonder if any of
54:16this relates to anything else of this
54:18and I suppose that's what made me start
54:20thinking because I was on this
54:21particularly silly program that made no
54:24attempt to make the material relevant
54:25you know there's a guy for help why am I
54:28doing this one possible relevance could
54:30it have to anything and then I read that
54:31monograph in the bath
54:34and the rest is history that's in yes
54:48uh I'm no I'm not I'm not because I'm
54:51not a I'm an American
54:53uh pedagogue uh I'm not qualified to do
54:56it I suppose in those terms uh nobody's
54:59asked me
55:00um what I'm hoping I'll do is end up
55:02putting the web on the on this giant web
55:04on the internet with the help of
55:05somebody like Gates and then we'll see
55:07what happens you know is this marvelous
55:08Story by Tom who wrote a wonderful
55:10book called the structure of scientific
55:11revolutions about how change happens and
55:14how it happens in spite of what's going
55:15on and he says you know at any one time
55:17in society he describes normal science
55:19by which he means the accepted view of
55:21knowledge at the time as being rather
55:23like a sort of large Temple inside which
55:25everyone is in the same robes and
55:26speaking the same academic gobbledygook
55:28and writing books to make sure that kids
55:31learn their version of Life blah blah
55:33blah and that and that that's how it's
55:35all going to go on and outside totally
55:38ignored like like young doctoral
55:40students always are because they're not
55:42important there's this young guy who
55:43says this brick appears to be slightly
55:45loose and the whole building falls down
55:48so you're not encouraged to come in like
55:51that with a brick but I'm what I'm
55:52hoping is maybe this web will act like
55:54that unless somebody else does it first
55:55there's a growing feeling around the
55:57country that as I wander around talking
55:58to people that this webbing approach
56:01might work in small ways but no nobody's
56:03asked me to become involved and I don't
56:04know why they would they certainly never
56:07will in England no let me just so I
56:10understand better the web project that
56:12you've been working on for a number of
56:13years will be interactive it will be on
56:15a computer you will be able to you'll be
56:17introduced to a circumstance and you'll
56:19have some choices you'll punch one and
56:21then you'll begin to travel from one
56:23thought or one sequence of thoughts to
56:24another yes I suppose but I think no I
56:26mean it wouldn't be a TV show that's how
56:28you do a TV show now I think one would
56:30try to present the thing somebody came
56:32up with a phrase I suppose it was a
56:34Jurassic thought calling it a knowledge
56:35park somewhere where you might play and
56:38enjoy yourself with knowledge and that
56:39and that you would be shown the park
56:41when you entered it in all its size and
56:44you could zoom in as it were but that at
56:46all times you'd be aware that it was as
56:48gigantic set of Trailways as it were you
56:51were following and that you could double
56:52back on yourself and you could move
56:53around and maybe you could go up and
56:55down as that you do in the book you know
56:56you could jump straight from one gateway
56:57to another
56:58um and that everywhere you went you
57:00would be making your own map so you'd
57:01know where you went and at all times you
57:03could look at the atlas and say where
57:04have I been and where is it left to
57:05explore and what one would hope of
57:07course is that people would go away and
57:09come back with their own data and put
57:11their own pathways on and and the
57:13knowledge Park would just grow and grow
57:15and grow as more and more people used it
57:17uh and would probably not stop growing
57:20and the problem there is the limitation
57:22of the size of the what the technology
57:23can give you
57:25or somebody coming on and just making up
57:27a entire small Kingdom and yes yes true
57:31true small subnets Sub sub webs I
57:34suppose yes yes
57:36I don't know it's early days yet
57:45no I don't know I don't I mean I know
57:47the question is can you comment on
57:49Edward de Bono's lateral thinking
57:52no I don't know much about it at all no
57:55I presume it's more or less what the
57:56kind of stuff that I do but more
57:58more important perhaps
58:02I just make TV programs
58:06sorry
58:08no no Edward is an academic and would
58:10probably regard me like most of my
58:12friends as a charlatan
58:15yes
58:24yes
58:26influence
58:28Bruno yeah bronowski did a thing called
58:30the ascent of man
58:32and he influenced me to the extent that
58:34he worked in the office next door number
58:36one
58:38and number two his view of History was
58:41something I so profoundly disagreed with
58:42I made connections to argue with it
58:44really
58:45because he espoused the cause of of
58:47great thinkers shaping society and I
58:51think uh great thinkers knowledge
58:53Society but the rest of us shape it
58:58why they what why do you hate teaching
59:00so much I don't hate teaching I I mean
59:03I'm making a joke when I say I don't
59:05want to go back to teaching of course I
59:06like teaching I'm doing it I hope in
59:08some way
59:10oh I see what you mean going back to
59:12teaching school well that's part of the
59:13fact that I really like this because as
59:15I said earlier on it's better than real
59:16work
59:17I do what most people do in their time
59:19off and get paid for it
59:21no don't knock it it's preferable
59:24preferable to almost anything
59:27and teaching is very hard work I mean we
59:31put in a lot of hours it's not we don't
59:32invent all this stuff off the top of
59:34your head you spend months and months
59:35and months seven days a week but it
59:37isn't the repetitive grind that I
59:39remember teaching was
59:41um I think survival in teaching is a
59:44really serious problem for for teachers
59:47you know it's hard work I have one
59:48question is in
59:50um what I'm still having trouble
59:51understanding is I thought when I would
59:54meet you that you would it's that you
59:56would have a slightly different answer
59:57to the question what is it that creates
59:59change in the world
1:00:02um can I ask it one more time all right
1:00:04um
1:00:06things do change over time lots of
1:00:09things change
1:00:10is it your sense that
1:00:13everything drives the change but nothing
1:00:15in particular or is there some way that
1:00:19you can describe some agent
1:00:22that takes you from a yes I understand
1:00:25what you're saying and I answered it
1:00:26before you ask answer it again there is
1:00:28no agent that you could identify I mean
1:00:31of course there are moments in history
1:00:32when certain key essential let's use
1:00:35this webbing phrase nodes arrive are
1:00:37coming to existence are passed through
1:00:39uh the discovery of electricity the
1:00:42printing press uh the steam pump
1:00:45you know many electricity the alphabet
1:00:50um those are those are a very small
1:00:52number of
1:00:54seminal and in very important surges in
1:00:58the process of innovation but they
1:01:00themselves don't come from nowhere they
1:01:03themselves are not the product of a
1:01:04single genius they are the product of
1:01:07somebody maybe if it's a single person
1:01:09who happens to notice that the
1:01:11marketplace is ready or the situation is
1:01:13there or the materials are lying around
1:01:14and happens to do a one and one makes
1:01:17three thing you know but I can't think
1:01:20of a single Innovation that came from
1:01:22nowhere there was always an antecedent
1:01:24and the antecedent was usually somebody
1:01:26less meaningful and important in the
1:01:30bronowsky way of looking at people than
1:01:33the so-called inventor
1:01:36and even if you separate out inventors
1:01:38or separate separate out great ideas or
1:01:41separate out great inventions like
1:01:42spelling or arithmetic uh is there
1:01:45nothing that you could name
1:01:49that
1:01:50pushes
1:01:51events you mean that's like like
1:01:54cholesterol that's kind of there
1:01:55cholesterol no I don't think so I can't
1:01:57think of a single one no yes but but I
1:02:00mean yes of course there are certain
1:02:01things that are there but they are not
1:02:03identifiable because in each situation I
1:02:05believe them to be to do it to manifest
1:02:06themselves differently like hunger or
1:02:09need or War but by this all greed then
1:02:12then the future is an absolutely open
1:02:14space if anything could happen because
1:02:18we have had an experience up to now does
1:02:20not really predict too much it will tend
1:02:23to be limited it will tend to be limited
1:02:25to activity in which human beings are
1:02:27involved it will probably be on this
1:02:29planet
1:02:31uh it will it will almost certainly not
1:02:33have to do with Flint tools and eating
1:02:35raw Basin yes there are certain
1:02:37limitations
1:02:39but I still think that leaves us with a
1:02:40multiplicity of choice that makes it
1:02:42almost impossible to forecast okay just
1:02:44checking uh how about you um yeah within
1:02:48the yellow shirt just behind you in the
1:02:50turtleneck just behind you
1:02:56is that
1:02:59yes there's nothing purposeful ever
1:03:03it just happened but James Watt was in
1:03:05the next office the trouble with some
1:03:07people
1:03:10the trouble with some people is that
1:03:12they knew a lot of people and James Watt
1:03:14knew a lot of people I mean there are
1:03:16two or three people in history that have
1:03:17whole sort of concentric circles around
1:03:19them but people who knew them or they
1:03:21knew people who knew people and you know
1:03:22you bounce off one of them and you
1:03:24before you know you are he's writing to
1:03:25James what you know dear Jim hi how are
1:03:27things you can't avoid James Watt uh
1:03:30just as you can't avoid Madame distal I
1:03:32mean she knew everybody there was to
1:03:34know I mean everybody from Soup To Nuts
1:03:37the only person she didn't know was Jane
1:03:38Austen who refused to meet her because
1:03:39her gowns were too low-cut
1:03:42so there's one I know I'll never have to
1:03:44do
1:03:45uh how Mr turtleneck
1:03:50a 200 part question
1:04:08yes
1:04:10yeah sure good thing
1:04:13no I mean open it up put it online let
1:04:16people use it mess with it change it I
1:04:18would hope so I would hope that that's
1:04:19what it would be for
1:04:22no I don't yet how was somebody inserted
1:04:25Arthur kramerman as the fifth president
1:04:28of the United States and systematically
1:04:30did that now innocent people in Sri
1:04:32Lanka turning up to lick their list of
1:04:34people in the United States will run
1:04:35into Arthur Cameron who never existed
1:04:38surely you must do some kind of Truth
1:04:41control
1:04:42should I reach for My Revolver
1:04:45someone hear the word truth control well
1:04:48I mean you're not giving me a pattern to
1:04:50explain the movement of change in the
1:04:51world but at least you should stick with
1:04:54um truth or at least verifiable if I if
1:04:57I if I put this web on the internet and
1:04:59it and build into it mechanisms that
1:05:01prevent people from doing those things
1:05:03they'll take the idea and go and do it
1:05:05somewhere else just as gutenberg's press
1:05:08was not only used to print Bibles was it
1:05:11no so uh the second the cat gets out of
1:05:15the bag all sorts of people will be
1:05:16wearing Cat Skin weren't they or sorry I
1:05:18didn't mean that you know what I mean
1:05:22you're a tough case yeah
1:05:33why why do I have to work from anything
1:05:39oh oh okay then I don't know I start
1:05:41with an idea that pops into my head
1:05:43I'm serious that's exactly how it starts
1:05:46I mean sometimes I look around the room
1:05:49um the Only Rule is that since I exist
1:05:51in the modern world I'm fairly certain
1:05:53uh I I I'll start in the modern world
1:05:56because the programs yes have there is
1:05:59there is a purpose to the programs as I
1:06:01think I said earlier that is in some way
1:06:02first of all to have people watch TV and
1:06:04keep me in work and second of all enjoy
1:06:07themselves and third of all see some
1:06:08relevance in what the rubbish I'm
1:06:10talking about in other words to look in
1:06:12some ways at the antecedent of the
1:06:13modern world and in doing so to look at
1:06:15the kind of process by which they might
1:06:16have ended up the way they are because
1:06:18the way they are affects what you are
1:06:20and what you do and how you in turn
1:06:22affect what's happening tomorrow so I I
1:06:25tend to want to begin in the modern
1:06:26world and say hello everybody recognize
1:06:29this place good goodbye and then
1:06:31disappear into the past
1:06:33didn't come back to the present saying
1:06:34you didn't know you were linked to the
1:06:36woman around the corner did you or
1:06:38whatever you know so so there is a
1:06:40starting point in the modern world but
1:06:41that's all there is there are certain
1:06:43constraints of course since you're
1:06:44making a program that has to last X
1:06:45minutes you don't want material that
1:06:48lasts why minutes especially when Y is
1:06:50smaller than x you know or they fire you
1:06:54so I'm just curious with Borax and the
1:06:56did you literally walk into the QE2 and
1:06:58say well I've got this Canard gig I paid
1:07:00for it let's see oh there's a lady
1:07:03getting her hair done thus the show I
1:07:06know couldn't be just
1:07:07no but I think I think that particular
1:07:09one began with me thinking what's a
1:07:11fairly ordinary thing in the modern
1:07:13world and how extraordinary a story
1:07:15could I tell about it a fairly ordinary
1:07:17thing is a permanent wave
1:07:18I mean you know whatever you call it
1:07:20nowadays styling or whatever so I went
1:07:23and read about styling and discovered
1:07:24this guy nestler
1:07:26and I've actually got to the end
1:07:30got to I got to Yorktown
1:07:32and then I thought oops I better have a
1:07:34beginning to this story so I read in all
1:07:37directions from Yorktown and one of them
1:07:38was Loyalists and condors
1:07:41and uh immediately get to Condes in the
1:07:43Cunard line the only way to have a
1:07:44hairdressing thing is to put the
1:07:46hairdresser thing on the QE too
1:07:48so that's kind of it happens it happens
1:07:51the way the program it happens the way
1:07:53the programs Illustrated history happens
1:07:54do you ever like do you ever get do you
1:07:57ever like just get you start on
1:07:58something you think lamps
1:08:03this whole thing was a mistake and then
1:08:05start somewhere else
1:08:08no because you see at each at each cross
1:08:11at each fork in the road and sometimes
1:08:13there are five or seven or ten Forks you
1:08:15always choose the one that's Oddball
1:08:17that's strange that's weird and since I
1:08:20don't know where I'm going
1:08:21it's always a surprise so really you
1:08:23don't ever get
1:08:24you sometimes you say this is getting a
1:08:27little dull and so you you come back a
1:08:30bit and go back and see if you can find
1:08:31a a more interesting route to follow and
1:08:34that happens a fair amount yes
1:08:37okay let's take uh so we're getting on
1:08:40late uh let's take uh seven more
1:08:43just to name a number or should we take
1:08:47three maybe yeah eleven nine or no more
1:08:50go ahead let's not be here
1:09:05yes
1:09:08oh dear
1:09:11good for you you've persevered
1:09:16the danger
1:09:17oh dear I'm going to get in trouble here
1:09:20it always it strikes me that the danger
1:09:22in accepting that there are patterns in
1:09:24the world is that you're going to end up
1:09:25accepting that one pattern is better
1:09:26than another
1:09:28and that way Madness lies I mean today
1:09:31it's good to walk on the left-hand side
1:09:34of the road and tomorrow it's good to
1:09:35walk on the left-hand side of the earth
1:09:36if you are the following thing I mean
1:09:39you know what I'm saying uh it's the
1:09:41beginning of uh constraint on people
1:09:44it's the beginning of saying this is the
1:09:45only true way to do things follow me I
1:09:47am the leader
1:09:49and as I said every time I hear that it
1:09:51makes me Rich you know uh I don't I'm
1:09:54again that kind of thing so I think the
1:09:55less people want to adhere to patterns
1:09:57the better because patterns tend to tell
1:09:59people there are far fewer options in
1:10:01life than there really are
1:10:03and and also it goes back to concerting
1:10:06this view you know that that fostering
1:10:09this view that somehow human all of us
1:10:11have to be told by somebody what to do
1:10:13all of us need leaders all of us are in
1:10:16some way just rabble and what we need us
1:10:18I'm inspiring Geniuses to tell us what
1:10:20to do when we have a brain the same size
1:10:23as Einstein's which is in Kansas and
1:10:25nobody's found a single way in which the
1:10:27process is in his brain are different
1:10:28from yours or mine
1:10:30so I'm I'm I'm uh I'm an anarchist in
1:10:33that sense of the word I don't want
1:10:35there to be patterns and since there
1:10:37aren't I'm pleased
1:10:40yes
1:10:46yes I was just discussing them
1:10:54it was it was where are you in your
1:10:56family what's your are you the oldest
1:10:58kid
1:11:00the youngest my father got medals my
1:11:03father got medals for killing Germans I
1:11:05would be put in jail for life for doing
1:11:07it now and that's only 50 years ago
1:11:09his father got medals for killing French
1:11:11people
1:11:12you know I mean that's that's how fast
1:11:15the the single way of doing things can
1:11:18change it's a terribly dangerous
1:11:20attitude not yours sir but I mean I
1:11:22believe in general it's a terribly
1:11:23dangerous attitude to Foster so I try to
1:11:25unfoster it and and what is the answer
1:11:27to my question are you the oldest son in
1:11:30your family are they baby or are they oh
1:11:31did you oh I see I didn't hear that for
1:11:33me oh uh I have I have three brothers
1:11:37an eldest
1:11:40eldest uh what
1:11:43that lady why did you say you'd never
1:11:45know it madam
1:11:47that's my aunt you should do it
1:11:50of course most people here are either my
1:11:51aunt or my cousin
1:11:55yes Mr beard we'll I'll let you off the
1:11:57hook
1:12:02oh gosh
1:12:29tolerance
1:12:31is the only purpose in studying history
1:12:33to learn tolerance
1:12:35to learn understanding of diversity and
1:12:37that people are different and that there
1:12:39isn't only one single true way to do
1:12:41anything and one single true belief to
1:12:44follow
1:12:45and that anybody who doesn't believe me
1:12:47should be dead or in prison or on a
1:12:50convict ship somewhere or whatever you'd
1:12:51like to describe it as so I mean I do
1:12:53believe there is a purpose in studying
1:12:54history and that's it
1:12:56couldn't you take a a slightly different
1:12:58view couldn't you couldn't you believe
1:13:00that there is a pattern or a way or a
1:13:02right and contain within your feeling
1:13:04the doubt of your own position yes I
1:13:07suppose most Christians think like that
1:13:09do they really most intelligent
1:13:11Christians think like that for example
1:13:13well so so then they can have it both
1:13:15ways they can both give some kind of uh
1:13:18no I don't think so at some points in
1:13:20related they've got to jump on me or the
1:13:21other my system you don't have to jump
1:13:25well you're sticking to it uh
1:13:28in the back yeah
1:13:34The Way We Were he asked you what is you
1:13:36are you aware that we have something
1:13:37called sat tests in America yes but I
1:13:40know virtually nothing about them oh so
1:13:42he believes it's the past tense of sit
1:13:44and
1:13:45sad test I'm sorry sir I can't answer
1:13:48the question because I don't know uh
1:13:50that's probably why nobody asked me to
1:13:51go to do anything about pedagogy in the
1:13:54second row and then I'll get you yes
1:14:22so
1:14:24foreign
1:14:27yes I thank you I understand should I
1:14:29repeat the question yeah please to
1:14:31summarize yes the gentleman said at the
1:14:33end of the first connections I said
1:14:35to the effect of that science was the
1:14:38show the world as it is and art and
1:14:40other forms of human the expression of
1:14:42human imagination merely described what
1:14:45the drivers of society science and
1:14:47technology created have I modified The
1:14:49View yes I have slightly in that Science
1:14:52and Technology from time to time changes
1:14:54its view of what the world is as
1:14:56Einstein once said if you think the
1:14:58universe is made of omelet you design
1:15:00instruments to look for Intergalactic
1:15:02yoke
1:15:03and if you don't find any you say no
1:15:05problem it's instrument failure
1:15:08so from time to time even science does
1:15:10that but it does it
1:15:12I suppose what I was saying there was
1:15:14that overwhelmingly the world is made by
1:15:16science and technology rather than by
1:15:18Art and that therefore I believe that
1:15:20science and technology in the sense of
1:15:22shaping the life we have lead are the
1:15:24drivers and that the Arts are ways of
1:15:28coming to terms with describing sharing
1:15:32giving insight into what has been placed
1:15:35there by science and technology yes I
1:15:37haven't modified My Views in that sense
1:15:39no what your second question here's the
1:15:42Trap yes
1:15:44yes
1:15:56oh oh this is a technical question
1:15:59this is easy good fun yeah right well
1:16:02actually well let me repeat the question
1:16:04so we can yes of course at the end of
1:16:06one of the one of the programs of the
1:16:08original connections program eight it
1:16:09was a show called eat drink and be merry
1:16:11I did a piece of blah blah blah blah
1:16:13blah at the end it went like that and a
1:16:15Titan Center took off for a Venus
1:16:19and how did I do it well
1:16:21frightenedly
1:16:24uh we we were at Cape Canaveral and uh
1:16:29what you do is you write words let's say
1:16:3220 seconds of words and then it's one
1:16:35second to step into this sorry one
1:16:37second to step into the shot 20 seconds
1:16:39of words one second to turn on point
1:16:41that's 22 2. one second for the camera
1:16:45to Rack Focus 23 and it goes so 23
1:16:48seconds before zero you start to speak
1:16:50and as you do it that's what we did and
1:16:53um uh it went you don't get take two on
1:16:56that thing
1:16:57we had a spare camera watching just the
1:17:00rocket in case things went wrong and the
1:17:02problem was that the the loudspeaker
1:17:04going ten nine eight was pointing the
1:17:07other way and the wind was blowing that
1:17:08way so we had somebody over there going
1:17:12and as we started to do the shop we
1:17:15discovered that we were standing on a
1:17:16giant termite area
1:17:18so there's a shot afterwards of a cell
1:17:20British film crew with their trousers
1:17:21off going on anyway we took it back to
1:17:24the BBC and said look what we did and
1:17:28they said hmm looks like back projection
1:17:31back projection is where you you know
1:17:33you put it behind and we said we said uh
1:17:36what do you mean it looks like back
1:17:37projection and they said we said you
1:17:40can't pull focus on back projection you
1:17:41can't change Focus from here to a mile
1:17:43away on back projection and they said
1:17:44yeah but the audience doesn't know that
1:17:47and then we said the audience doesn't
1:17:49know about back projection and the and
1:17:50the BBC said okay Lions one Christian's
1:17:52one and it was a truth but they never
1:17:55said Well Done ever
1:17:58in that connection when there's a lot of
1:18:01times when you're wandering around in
1:18:02Indonesia or something and then you come
1:18:04up to some man who's selling bananas and
1:18:06he's behind him with several people who
1:18:08are buying bananas and then there's and
1:18:10and you pop up and say of course the
1:18:13whole reason why in 13th century
1:18:15and I noticed that all the people just
1:18:18go about buying bananas uh do you tell
1:18:22them all ignore us or do you um or do
1:18:26they just deeply indifferent to whatever
1:18:28it is
1:18:30in most cases they're deeply indifferent
1:18:32yes I mean they're about buying bananas
1:18:35and there's these lunatic foreigners
1:18:37doing something crazy what do they care
1:18:39number number one unless they're Indians
1:18:41they're from India and all Indians want
1:18:43to be extras
1:18:44and they absolutely love it and they
1:18:46come up and say what do you want us to
1:18:48do I mean thousands of Indians come out
1:18:50here today you say well don't look at
1:18:52the camera impossible it's awesome and
1:18:56they say oh no sir we have to look at
1:18:58the camera and so what do you want us to
1:19:00do given that we're looking at the
1:19:01camera so we say things like well look
1:19:03busy and and then you get these free
1:19:05extras you know bizarre is full of
1:19:07that's b-a-z-a-r although the rest of it
1:19:10is the other spelling you get loads of
1:19:13these people all being extras and
1:19:15they're wonderful um
1:19:18ignores you rather glumly maybe because
1:19:21their living lives are quite desperation
1:19:23you know I wish they could go home with
1:19:25you in a bit of your car I don't know
1:19:27okay last question this will be the last
1:19:29because we're getting on
1:19:32um I promised you didn't I okay
1:19:47a great idea
1:19:48of a lot of people yeah
1:20:05[Laughter]
1:20:08what's the question we'll be studying
1:20:10that for a while the question was how
1:20:12would you say this
1:20:18in terms of in terms of politics
1:20:22ah
1:20:24you think it's any different where we
1:20:25come from I do think uh well we might as
1:20:29well say something dangerous right yeah
1:20:30we're leaving huh please I
1:20:33I think there's a general malaise in the
1:20:35west as a home and I live between
1:20:37England and France and I spend an
1:20:39enormous amount of time in most of the
1:20:40other Western Western countries and in
1:20:42America and everywhere you go there's
1:20:43this General malaise people are fed up
1:20:46to the teeth with the political process
1:20:48they don't like most of the politicians
1:20:49they have to vote for they don't believe
1:20:51them they don't and all that stuff and I
1:20:53wonder whether or not it's because the
1:20:55technology uh in the meantime has moved
1:20:58us slightly beyond what is after all the
1:21:00ideal answer to lousy roads and
1:21:02non-existent Telecommunications in the
1:21:0418th century
1:21:05you know when only a couple of
1:21:07egomaniacs was time to spare on a horse
1:21:08would risk the ride to the capital to
1:21:11represent the hay seeds and with roads
1:21:13that dangerous these egomaniacs who
1:21:14become known as politicians they're not
1:21:15going to turn around the next day and
1:21:16come back and say did you change your
1:21:18mind so these return Journeys infrequent
1:21:20to return Journeys called elections are
1:21:21arranged when they ride back down and
1:21:23say by the way have you changed your
1:21:24mind you've got one happening on Tuesday
1:21:25now I mean that situation worked when
1:21:28most of the electorate was illiterate
1:21:30and there was no there was no
1:21:31Communications with the dam why have we
1:21:33still got it I mean if we don't take two
1:21:35flavors from Baskin Robbins why do we
1:21:37take it from Washington or London
1:21:39if we can have an instant Pizza why
1:21:41can't we have instant answers if I can
1:21:43access a totally transparent internet
1:21:45why are some political doors in
1:21:47government closed to me and I think
1:21:49people are beginning to be fed up to the
1:21:51back teeth because technology has opened
1:21:53the world to them just enough to know
1:21:55that they don't know but that the way
1:21:57they're going to find out is certainly
1:21:59not with this outmoded 18th century
1:22:00so-called representative government
1:22:02system we've got my representative
1:22:04doesn't represent he doesn't even know
1:22:05me
1:22:06you know so I mean I look forward
1:22:08actively and this is we get to spend
1:22:10five more hours on this but I mean the
1:22:12sooner we have some kind of direct
1:22:13participatory democracy in which the
1:22:16government is a servant of the general
1:22:18will the better
1:22:20even if uh well I mean it's like wait a
1:22:23sentence we're just raising this
1:22:24question even if the opportunity for
1:22:27reflection I mean if you're presented
1:22:29with the question and then you seek out
1:22:32some information in a given period of
1:22:34time and then you have to judge choose
1:22:36on the question
1:22:39the representative that you elect to
1:22:40Washington is is your or to London or
1:22:43wherever is the person whose job it is
1:22:45is to reflect and figure it out or to
1:22:47take most money from whoever's bribing
1:22:49him or whatever it is but he's the he's
1:22:51the person you lay that on do we have
1:22:54time to have make all these decisions
1:22:56ourselves yes I do I think we do I think
1:22:58we have plenty of time to make all the
1:23:00decisions when the decisions are shared
1:23:02as they're supposed to by the Democratic
1:23:03process among 250 million of us or in my
1:23:06case 56 million of course we have time
1:23:07you share it all out there's plenty of
1:23:09time and when you have time you join the
1:23:11group and you talk again it's like I
1:23:13suppose the town government type of
1:23:15thing but but what we what we certainly
1:23:17can't do is to use this I you see I I
1:23:21really I really don't I believe
1:23:23fundamentally what's happened is that
1:23:24we've ended up with with choices that
1:23:26are absurdly too limited absurdly to it
1:23:29there's not two ways to run this country
1:23:31there are hundreds of ways from this
1:23:33country or a mirage of all of them and I
1:23:35think what the what the parties uh in my
1:23:38country anyway are doing are making it
1:23:40clearer and clearer that that that that
1:23:42the the two-party system or even a
1:23:45three-party system is a nonsense people
1:23:47have too many informed opinions now to
1:23:49be satisfied by people who rip who even
1:23:52then don't represent the complexities of
1:23:54the of the voters views but only an
1:23:56absurdly over simple version of it
1:23:59well since we began with my family I
1:24:01should say that in a shocking Family
1:24:03development for those of you just simply
1:24:05covering my family that my one a person
1:24:07very dear to me in the front row who was
1:24:08voted Democratic in every election to my
1:24:10knowledge has announced privately that
1:24:13now publicly that she's thinking about
1:24:15uh the Green Party
1:24:17which is
1:24:19I mean after 50 years of voting for
1:24:21Democrats I'm amazed but anyway uh thank
1:24:24you all for coming
1:24:36thanks for listening for more
1:24:38information on the 92nd Street y New
1:24:40York and all of our programs please
1:24:42visit us at 92ny.org

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