ISSUES INTERVIEWS 79: HANNAH BANNANAH (ISSUES 110) — Transcript

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1. 0:07Is that working?
2. 0:09>> I think so. Can you hear me?
3. 0:11>> I can hear you. Am I Can you hear me
4. 0:13well enough?
5. 0:14>> Yeah.
6. 0:15>> Sick. All right, cool.
7. 0:18>> Yeah, we're uh Let me just adjust the
8. 0:19levels for my voice.
9. 0:21>> Yeah, sure.
10. 0:23>> Okay.
11. 0:24Um hello. How are you?
12. 0:27>> Hey. Oh. Uh,
13. 0:30and oh, is this going to be in it?
14. 0:34>> Oh, yeah. We just Okay. Okay. The way
15. 0:36this works is I just
16. 0:38>> I just hit record and anything happens
17. 0:40that happens. I'm going to ask you
18. 0:41questions like a normal interview, but
19. 0:43also like if you want to go off wildly
20. 0:45on a tangent, it'll all just be
21. 0:47recorded, too.
22. 0:48>> And then like this part's in there, too.
23. 0:50>> Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.
24. 0:52>> Yeah. How long can I How long do you
25. 0:53think I can get away with chewing on
26. 0:55this?
27. 0:56>> Chewing. I mean, as long as you want to
28. 0:58really, no one's ever really tested the
29. 0:59limits of the the game before.
30. 1:02>> I guess it comes at my own expense.
31. 1:05>> Uh,
32. 1:05>> I mean, I don't know.
33. 1:06>> Lengthwise.
34. 1:07>> Well, yeah.
35. 1:08>> Never been pushed.
36. 1:10>> Yeah, I guess.
37. 1:11>> I I mean, if you wanted to spend the
38. 1:14whole format subverting the format, you
39. 1:15could do that if you want to as well.
40. 1:17Yeah.
41. 1:17>> No, I I don't want to do that. Okay. I'm
42. 1:22>> I'm doing okay.
43. 1:25Uh, how are you doing?
44. 1:26>> I'm doing good. It's a good day.
45. 1:28>> Cool. Nice day. You
46. 1:30>> Yeah. So, as I was saying, the way this
47. 1:32normally works is, you know, I'll ask
48. 1:33questions like a standard interview, but
49. 1:34then you could just talk about whatever
50. 1:36the hell you want to. And, uh, it'll all
51. 1:38be recorded and we'll first the print
52. 1:41transcription will be out in the
53. 1:42magazine and then later that month the
54. 1:45audio will be released on our YouTube
55. 1:46page.
56. 1:48>> Awesome. And like how like does this
57. 1:50like go will this like go on my record
58. 1:54>> on your record?
59. 1:55>> That was a dumb joke. Don't worry about
60. 1:57it. I'm sorry.
61. 1:58>> On your record on your record like
62. 1:59you're recording or on your record like
63. 2:01your
64. 2:04>> like resume or like police record is
65. 2:07really the
66. 2:07>> You could put it on your resume
67. 2:08probably. You could probably find a way
68. 2:10to like
69. 2:12>> like uh make it sound more important
70. 2:14than it is and put it on your resume. At
71. 2:15least record is like the most legible
72. 2:18form of the joke, I think. But I didn't
73. 2:22decide ahead of time before I made it.
74. 2:25>> Yeah. I mean, I guess only if you say
75. 2:27something illegal or if you say
76. 2:29something about not liking like
77. 2:31>> um people who own social media or
78. 2:34something.
79. 2:36>> Uhhuh.
80. 2:36>> Other than that, I think you're fine.
81. 2:38>> I'll try to stay clear. I'm trying to
82. 2:40stay out.
83. 2:40>> Okay, great. Keep safe.
84. 2:44So, uh, what's your name and where are
85. 2:46you?
86. 2:48>> Um,
87. 2:50uh, uh, Hannah, uh, Banana, which is
88. 2:53spelled like it sounds
89. 2:55>> like, uh, B A N A. Oh, [ __ ] Actually,
90. 2:58let me double check. Wait. B, uh, B A N
91. 3:04A N A H.
92. 3:06>> Like, like the fruit is what you're
93. 3:08saying.
94. 3:08>> Yeah. Well, no, no, not like the fruit,
95. 3:10but because that I think Okay, I like
96. 3:13remembered recently why I picked that
97. 3:14[ __ ] name. And it's I thought it was
98. 3:16funny if because in England, which is
99. 3:20where I am, people pronounce it banana.
100. 3:22>> Uhhuh. And so like the Hannah like
101. 3:26people the the the very kind of uh the
102. 3:29very
103. 3:33the very low culture uh uh nickname of
104. 3:36Hannah Banana doesn't really work over
105. 3:38here. So I thought it was funny if uh um
106. 3:42like I I type I spelled it like it like
107. 3:45it rhy like it rhymed like it looks. So,
108. 3:48it's like Hannah banana, like spelled
109. 3:50banana. Banana being spelled like
110. 3:52Hannah. But no, it doesn't matter
111. 3:53because everyone calls me Hannah banana
112. 3:55and I [ __ ] hate it. But I don't
113. 3:56actually hate it. It's fine. But that's
114. 3:58it. That's that's that's it. And I'm in
115. 4:01Nottingham, uh, England.
116. 4:04>> Okay. All right.
117. 4:07>> And so, uh, what's the name of your, uh,
118. 4:09project?
119. 4:12Uh, I
120. 4:14I guess it's the same name, but I've I
121. 4:17kind of used to do the uh I used to do
122. 4:20the
123. 4:22like the old uh Ferraro thing where I
124. 4:25would name I would come up with a new
125. 4:28like name for each release or like have
126. 4:32lots of uh but Hannah Banana just as a
127. 4:34sort of personal
128. 4:36name is kind of the umbrella for
129. 4:38everything. My Band Camp has a
130. 4:40completely different [ __ ] name. I
131. 4:41don't I don't remember why.
132. 4:43>> What's your band?
133. 4:45>> Uh candle cage pan solar.band.com.
134. 4:51>> You're going to need to spell that, I
135. 4:52think.
136. 4:53>> Yeah. C A N D L E C A G E P A N S O L A
137. 5:04R. Um yeah, it's I I I Oh, [ __ ] I
138. 5:09actually remember because I used to have
139. 5:10a website uh where um I wanted to do
140. 5:16things through a website and it was a
141. 5:17very kind of like
142. 5:21uh in a way uh like part of me wants to
143. 5:24compare it to a cathedral because of how
144. 5:27uh huge and sort of uh articulate it
145. 5:29was, but it was also really poorly made
146. 5:31because I sort of didn't know how to
147. 5:34make it. So I want to compare it to like
148. 5:35a pile of vomit. So it's kind of like
149. 5:38both. Which then makes me think of that
150. 5:40you know that guy ah there's two things.
151. 5:43There's the one guy in Italy maybe too
152. 5:45much of a compliment to myself to
153. 5:46compare it to this guy who was like
154. 5:48making his own jaw by hand and he like
155. 5:52he's buried in it. But there's also that
156. 5:54guy that mentally disabled guy in China
157. 5:56who built like a sevenstory like mud
158. 5:59house for his brothers he didn't know
159. 6:00were dead. It's more like that. It was
160. 6:02more like that. And then
161. 6:04I I called it that, which has never been
162. 6:07the name of anything I've made, but I
163. 6:09called it that because I I was uh
164. 6:11because I said that the this is I guess
165. 6:16h this is a bit I'm willing to drop uh
166. 6:19rather than maintain. I used to say that
167. 6:21the website was being run on a machine
168. 6:23in the center of the earth that was
169. 6:25called candle cage pensola.
170. 6:28So like the bank camps from that time.
171. 6:31So it's called that. I wish you I wish I
172. 6:33wish this wasn't all in.
173. 6:35>> Oh, this is the best this is the best
174. 6:37kind of in right now.
175. 6:40>> It's a It's um Okay, so I want to go to
176. 6:43that idea of
177. 6:45>> a computer at the center of the earth
178. 6:48>> now.
179. 6:48>> Yeah.
180. 6:48>> Is that something you've incorporated
181. 6:50into other work that you've done or is
182. 6:52it any in any way related to like your
183. 6:54lyrics or anything like that?
184. 6:56>> I um No, I fixated on it for a while. I
185. 7:00think it's just uh imagery that like for
186. 7:02some kind of uh primordial uh reason um
187. 7:07uh sticks to me like uh you know like a
188. 7:10thorn or like a or maybe like uh
189. 7:15just some kind of a vague personal
190. 7:18archetyp that that
191. 7:20seems to satisfy some thing that's
192. 7:24secret to myself like like a bunch of
193. 7:26times with no kind of effort to cohhere
194. 7:28them or any kind of grand narrative
195. 7:30I I've made things where part of it
196. 7:34involves there being some kind of
197. 7:36machinery that's buried in the earth or
198. 7:38in a mountain or like a volcano. I don't
199. 7:41know why that's come up a few times. I
200. 7:42used [ __ ] it's not well written at all.
201. 7:45Uh but I used to have a I had a piece of
202. 7:48writing about uh truckers who had like
203. 7:52uh iron deposit like the mineral iron
204. 7:56inside them. I don't know. I have a
205. 7:57weird thing about things being inside
206. 7:58things. I don't know. I It's just a
207. 8:00There's no There's no real theme to
208. 8:02that. I I very a lot of the a lot of my
209. 8:06uh sort of uh smear on the world is is
210. 8:10off the top of the dump. So, there's a
211. 8:11lot of just sort of uh patterns emerged
212. 8:14out of flippant sort of uh constant
213. 8:17>> right
214. 8:18>> production. And um yeah, I don't know
215. 8:20something in my head about that. I'm
216. 8:22just sort of just a just sort of uh a
217. 8:25little bit [ __ ] up in that in that
218. 8:26specific way for machines being inside
219. 8:29the earth.
220. 8:31>> Are you are you familiar with the author
221. 8:33Ira Lavine?
222. 8:36>> No. He uh he wrote his most famous work
223. 8:39was the boys from Brazil which turned
224. 8:42into a movie later on which was about
225. 8:43like people making clones of Hitler in
226. 8:45South America and uh his uh but he read
227. 8:49he wrote this book called this perfect
228. 8:51day which is all about a society that's
229. 8:54um
230. 8:56kind of controlled by culture and
231. 8:57medicine and but the ultimate the real
232. 9:00veil of society is that there's a
233. 9:01computer buried in a mountain somewhere
234. 9:03in like northern Italy or something like
235. 9:05that.
236. 9:06So that's what it made me think of.
237. 9:08Yeah, that's what it made me think.
238. 9:08>> That's beautiful.
239. 9:09>> Yeah,
240. 9:10>> that's so much.
241. 9:12>> Yeah.
242. 9:12>> Yeah, I heard of that. This guy was
243. 9:15interesting.
244. 9:16>> Yeah. Yeah, he's got some good stuff. Um
245. 9:19I think And have you ever Um Okay, so
246. 9:22tell me about your recordings. Do you
247. 9:24What are they like? What are their
248. 9:25names? What are they about?
249. 9:28Oh. Uh
250. 9:30um
251. 9:33uh
252. 9:36it's varied a lot over the um
253. 9:41I I started uh I started putting stuff
254. 9:44up. My first thing went up in um
255. 9:48uh July 2017.
256. 9:52Um, and uh I was I was like uh I was
257. 9:57like 16 by like a couple like a month I
258. 10:01think. And uh I've uh now I'm like uh
259. 10:06I'm about to turn 25.
260. 10:09And I've I used to
261. 10:13I have like a I don't know how many but
262. 10:15like over 200 some plus some like things
263. 10:18on my band camp. So that they they've
264. 10:22definitely
265. 10:24uh stray stylistically. It def like um
266. 10:30most of it's probably not worth
267. 10:31listening to.
268. 10:32>> Would you say I um
269. 10:33>> would you say that they were albums?
270. 10:34Like what length are they? You would you
271. 10:36say
272. 10:37>> that varies too? I I mean it depends on
273. 10:40what I was into. I I I I very much began
274. 10:44like Oh [ __ ] Yeah, they used to
275. 10:49[ __ ] I'm just I'm just like looking
276. 10:51myself now. Um, it depends. I I've
277. 10:56always been very like idea first and
278. 10:58then just everything conforming around
279. 11:00it. So,
280. 11:02like it really depends from like
281. 11:04extremely short to extremely long,
282. 11:07>> you'd say?
283. 11:07>> Yeah. Just depending on the the it's
284. 11:10like that it's like this TS Elliott
285. 11:12quote about freevere poetry. Um he said
286. 11:16that um free verse or I think he said
287. 11:19like verse libra is only uh libra if you
288. 11:22have nothing to say which I like a lot
289. 11:25like um you know the freedom of of a
290. 11:29medium like is
291. 11:32is uh
292. 11:34>> in a sense by by taking away the uh you
293. 11:38know metrical expectations and whatnot
294. 11:41likely suddenly poets were
295. 11:45imprisoned solely by what they feel
296. 11:48needs to be, you know, said and what the
297. 11:50work demanded, what the craft of the
298. 11:52form demanded, whatever. Yeah.
299. 11:53>> And I guess like Band Camp is
300. 11:56>> oh god especially in the like it was
301. 11:58such an example of that because it made
302. 12:01like anyone any like tween [ __ ] could
303. 12:05like make a label and like anyone could
304. 12:08upload like any length of audio any
305. 12:12number of things and call it out like so
306. 12:15like there's kind of this there's a kind
307. 12:17of you know verse Libra is only as libra
308. 12:20as if you can have something to say like
309. 12:22who occurs there because I, you know,
310. 12:25it's just whatever you decide to
311. 12:26publish. So,
312. 12:29>> yeah, that's true.
313. 12:29>> There's stuff on here. There's stuff on
314. 12:31here that's like,
315. 12:33>> yeah, I have one thing [ __ ] really
316. 12:36old called Searching for the Number
317. 12:38four, Lost Gold, and it's a release, and
318. 12:42I think it's only four minutes long. Uh,
319. 12:45it's two minutes long, but then I have
320. 12:48um like Yeah. stuff that's like hours.
321. 12:51Let's focus on that for just a second.
322. 12:53Let's hyper focus on this one piece.
323. 12:56>> What is this construction like? What is
324. 12:57this instrumentation? Do you do you sing
325. 12:59on it or speak on it?
326. 13:00>> How does it work?
327. 13:01>> Um at the time, so this is a very very
328. 13:04this is uh yeah, it's from 2017. I
329. 13:09at the time I had become so my like yeah
330. 13:13this this particular thing is it it's
331. 13:15made with a cassette recorder that I had
332. 13:19removed the erase head from um that was
333. 13:26per the inspiration of this guy Son of
334. 13:28Salami
335. 13:30>> who I don't know if you may have heard
336. 13:31of um he he's also gone under Joey Pizza
337. 13:35Slice but he like I discovered his music
338. 13:40uh I was like 15 or something. It like
339. 13:43enamored me. It's definitely a kind of a
340. 13:46entrance outside of the
341. 13:49uh narrower path. And like um he would
342. 13:52make pop music like structurally and and
343. 13:56you know uh
344. 13:58>> in its uh idea and stuff but it would be
345. 14:01instead of having an eight track you
346. 14:03know where you have multiple layers and
347. 14:05whatnot. Um, he removes the uh erase
348. 14:09head from the uh from a just a portable
349. 14:13personal listening uh cassette recorder
350. 14:16that was just made for the home for
351. 14:18consumers,
352. 14:19>> right?
353. 14:19>> Um, so that when you record onto the
354. 14:22tape, if there's anything already on the
355. 14:23tape, it won't get magnetically erased,
356. 14:26but what you record just sort of mushes
357. 14:28on top and uh Okay.
358. 14:29>> He would construct, but you can't hear
359. 14:31what's happening while you do it. He
360. 14:32would construct these um beautiful messy
361. 14:35sort of pop songs where the kind of uh
362. 14:39the kind of um sort of uncouness
363. 14:43and without
364. 14:46without uh selling meaning or anything
365. 14:48as part of the aesthetic appeal. I think
366. 14:50his sort of slobishness which sort of is
367. 14:52completely exuding from the form at all
368. 14:54times down to the audio quality. Anyway,
369. 14:58I had gotten really into that. just the
370. 15:01fact that he did that and the fact you
371. 15:02can do that. So I was doing that um
372. 15:06on this. So searching for lost gold is a
373. 15:09uh is a twominute cassette recording. Um
374. 15:16but at the time however I had become
375. 15:18completely enamored with the body of
376. 15:21work of James Ferraro and his um early
377. 15:25the band the skaters where like you know
378. 15:28it was kind of my I wasn't around when
379. 15:31new age was like god awful. Mhm.
380. 15:33>> Um so like it was kind of my
381. 15:36introduction to those themes at all um
382. 15:39as like a a very shutin like child and
383. 15:43um just any kind of but then also was it
384. 15:46was an inroad to like noise music and
385. 15:48drone and and so many things at once and
386. 15:51then also his very sort of
387. 15:54characteristic uh uh
388. 15:57not not looseness um the way that he
389. 16:01would sort of
390. 16:03He would
391. 16:05his projects like
392. 16:09they were hyper like concept heavy like
393. 16:11the album cover would be you know almost
394. 16:14like an idoggram of of various
395. 16:18uh like you know various cultural
396. 16:21references that kind of altogether
397. 16:23represent something that's never been
398. 16:26sort of represented before. But you kind
399. 16:28of
400. 16:29>> you see it and feel it there in a in a
401. 16:31way that's recognizable. And he would
402. 16:33the whole project would bend around this
403. 16:36>> uh vibe I guess. And uh in a sense it's
404. 16:40a kind of non-committal because he would
405. 16:41he had no allegiance to you know rock or
406. 16:45drone or whatever. He would make you
407. 16:47know something. And yeah, I was totally
408. 16:50enamored by him, but I was I and I but I
409. 16:54was making music with this uh tape
410. 16:57thing. So I remember at the time I had
411. 16:59not figured out how James made stuff.
412. 17:03And in 2017 I most certainly would have
413. 17:05been basically trying to rip him off. Um
414. 17:08which I I say with no shame because it
415. 17:10was a sort of I think learning
416. 17:12experience as a a young [ __ ] Um,
417. 17:17I think uh so I think the recording is
418. 17:20like I had like a monoponic Casio thing
419. 17:25and it really lacks you know compared to
420. 17:28other stuff. Like you know I own like a
421. 17:30Casio SK1 and it's like a [ __ ] it's
422. 17:33like the it's like the key to the city.
423. 17:35Like it's like the it's the most
424. 17:37versatile thing I've ever owned. But at
425. 17:39the time I just had this monophonic um
426. 17:42uh tiny Casio thing that just had these
427. 17:45sort of very sort of sine wavy no not
428. 17:48sine wavy like saw wavy noises on them.
429. 17:52And I believe the recording is me
430. 17:55layering lots of like arpeggiation and
431. 17:57and noodling over the top of itself
432. 18:02and I think maybe playing a drum a
433. 18:04little bit.
434. 18:05Did you record that all at once or did
435. 18:07you record like did you mush it like
436. 18:09three times?
437. 18:09>> Yeah, that was in individual layers. So
438. 18:11all of those things were a sort of uh
439. 18:13imposed over the top of Yeah, it's
440. 18:17layered like like you could, you know,
441. 18:19like you would do in Audacity, you know,
442. 18:21right? But now, but
443. 18:22>> yeah, just um
444. 18:24>> it's basically like you're doing one
445. 18:25track tape recording and you're just mad
446. 18:27you're not I'm not trying not I'm not
447. 18:29laughing because it's like
448. 18:30>> mocking. I'm laughing because it's uh
449. 18:33>> it's fun. But you're taking Yeah. You're
450. 18:35taking like one track
451. 18:37>> tape recording and just recording on
452. 18:39that one track over and over again.
453. 18:42>> Yeah. Yeah. And you know there's a
454. 18:44little bit of mystery to it, a little
455. 18:45bit of like unexpected beauty because
456. 18:47you know sometimes you throw yourself in
457. 18:49you don't know what's what's underneath
458. 18:51what you're recording. But then some you
459. 18:52know you can also zoom around with the
460. 18:54little it's always a bit imprecise which
461. 18:56I think is probably I think charm is
462. 18:59probably its lasting merit. But like um
463. 19:02>> well I like anything I like to surprise
464. 19:04myself, you know? I like to I like to
465. 19:06create a piece and then like
466. 19:07>> if I don't know what it's gonna sound
467. 19:10like then I think I did a good job
468. 19:11sometimes if that makes sense.
469. 19:13>> Yeah. I know. I mean, there's so much.
470. 19:19>> Hello.
471. 19:23If you're uh still on the line, I've
472. 19:25you're you cut out audio-wise.
473. 19:33It's just me. This has never happened
474. 19:36before.
475. 19:38Just Ryan.
476. 19:41This is what an interview sounds like
477. 19:42without a subject.
478. 19:52I feel like this is a perfect person for
479. 19:54this situation to happen to.
480. 20:00All right, I'm going to hit the call
481. 20:03button again here.
482. 20:15All right,
483. 20:17you're right here with me, people.
484. 20:20>> Will she pick up?
485. 20:22>> Oh, hey. Yeah, my internet just died, it
486. 20:25seems.
487. 20:26>> Oh, okay. That's good. That's great. You
488. 20:28We just got about 45 seconds of me
489. 20:30talking to myself, so that's that's
490. 20:32going to be in there somewhere.
491. 20:33>> Cool. Um, do you remember the last thing
492. 20:36uh I said
493. 20:38>> the la the last said I know you were
494. 20:40talking on the matter of um
495. 20:42>> you you were talking about how
496. 20:45um
497. 20:48I know it was related to the the single
498. 20:50tape recorder and how there's a bit of
499. 20:52mystery involved in it and how
500. 20:54>> Yeah.
501. 20:56Well, I was definitely just rambling on
502. 20:59my own about mistakes or sort of getting
503. 21:02rewarded by
504. 21:04uh mistakes and accidents and um but
505. 21:08also uh how like I think did you hear
506. 21:12I'll just say it again anyway. Uh I
507. 21:16I was saying like
508. 21:19I feel like with any any art in any like
509. 21:22medium or uh form probably by like
510. 21:26everyone ever there is um like
511. 21:32you kind of bring to it meagerally your
512. 21:35like offering of your
513. 21:39idea, your like hard idea, your
514. 21:40passionate like what you your intent and
515. 21:44right
516. 21:44>> scheme. You bring it like as an offering
517. 21:48like and you know uh it it it gets sort
518. 21:55of uh
519. 21:57you know it it goes through a a journey
520. 22:00like informed by completely
521. 22:02unpredictable things and you know by
522. 22:04chaos and and
523. 22:06>> you know randomness and whatnot like for
524. 22:09writing or for music or for whatever
525. 22:10like nothing good I've ever made. Like I
526. 22:12think the best stuff I've made is when I
527. 22:15was I was really trying to do something
528. 22:17but what I was trying to do I did not
529. 22:19achieve
530. 22:21you know because
531. 22:23>> I think I at least personally I
532. 22:28I try and go with the uh go with the
533. 22:32mistakes go with the accidents. I think
534. 22:34this might just be semantics, but I I
535. 22:36like to say I like to think about it as
536. 22:39I achieve what I was setting out to, but
537. 22:41not in the way that I expected.
538. 22:43>> Yeah, that's a better way to put it.
539. 22:44That's a better way to put it. I've
540. 22:46never really um it kind of came to me
541. 22:50like I just got reminded of um
542. 22:54the uh the film the film Julian Donkey
543. 22:58Boy by Harmony Korean.
544. 23:02Ah,
545. 23:02>> he
546. 23:04He made a he made a manifesto
547. 23:08uh the mistakist declaration before that
548. 23:13film and there are a few elements in it
549. 23:15that I quite I quite desire his uh
550. 23:20um yeah I mean this is a completely you
551. 23:22know this is not something I'm like in
552. 23:25terms of his medium it's not something
553. 23:27I'm kind of familiar with but like
554. 23:30I really like these few parts s from it.
555. 23:33So
556. 23:36point 10 on it is only in randomness and
557. 23:39mistakes quote unquote can one totally
558. 23:41sorry truly announce what is too deep to
559. 23:44express in a direct and true way.
560. 23:48>> Point 12 is rather than direct a scene
561. 23:51document the action which I think if you
562. 23:53like allow yourself to abstract that
563. 23:56kind of goes very well with uh at least
564. 23:58how I like uh produce songs. Uh,
565. 24:02>> it definitely goes well with how I do
566. 24:04interviews.
567. 24:07>> Just hit record before it starts and
568. 24:08then it happens. That's how it goes.
569. 24:10>> No way.
570. 24:11>> Yeah. Document. Yeah.
571. 24:12>> Yeah. And then he says,
572. 24:15yeah, the last point of it is a mistake
573. 24:18must believe in God over all else.
574. 24:21>> Which I think kind of has a magical
575. 24:23quality to it in as much as you are kind
576. 24:26of as an artist per his outline there.
577. 24:30um kind of giving yourself over right
578. 24:34faithfully to a sort of principle that
579. 24:36you can't define.
580. 24:37>> I agree with that completely actually.
581. 24:39It's um it's a process.
582. 24:42>> You're just trusting that it's going to
583. 24:44be what it's supposed to be.
584. 24:46>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's like you
585. 24:48you like in a sense I don't think that
586. 24:50the art it's like the muse, you know, in
587. 24:53like classical ancient poetry like you
588. 24:57know like some of the most like eternal
589. 25:00literature
590. 25:01that we have begins with the poet
591. 25:05dramatically asking like something else,
592. 25:09asking the muse to tell him what to say
593. 25:12and then he repeats it to you. And
594. 25:13that's like
595. 25:14>> I think that that has a very intuitive
596. 25:18thing to it. Like the sense that like
597. 25:21we're not um
598. 25:24like if I like what like what I have to
599. 25:29bring to the table isn't enough. Like
600. 25:33like if you only received my attempts at
601. 25:37scaffolding the thing, it's like you
602. 25:39wouldn't have the fruit of the art
603. 25:41piece. Like it's almost like you're
604. 25:42you're always in sort of uh
605. 25:45corroboration with you know
606. 25:49the the end result which will not be
607. 25:53what you thought it was going to be.
608. 25:55>> Yeah. And the end makes you do it before
609. 25:56it happens.
610. 25:58>> Yeah. I mean, you don't even need to be
611. 26:00like just like cuz I don't know saying
612. 26:02this. I feel like I sound like some kind
613. 26:04of like annoying like yian or something,
614. 26:07but like
615. 26:08>> Well, I mean, Roger Penrose,
616. 26:09>> you don't even need to be that physical
617. 26:11about it.
618. 26:11>> Sorry. Roger Penrose, the the quant the
619. 26:13theor the physicist
620. 26:16>> Yeah.
621. 26:16>> demonstrated that the future causes the
622. 26:18past like he demonstrated it. So,
623. 26:21>> I haven't read his paper. Is it is it
624. 26:23demonstrated? uh he created a
625. 26:26mathematical construct that's consistent
626. 26:28with what they observed I guess is what
627. 26:30you would say but
628. 26:31>> I'm not a physicist
629. 26:33>> but
630. 26:33>> yeah I've had a tab on his thing about
631. 26:37consciousness and stuff for like years
632. 26:38but I haven't actually gone to look at
633. 26:40it um
634. 26:41>> but also like in general there's a
635. 26:42movement in physics that demonstrates
636. 26:44that the future causes the pass
637. 26:48yeah like I feel like I could yeah
638. 26:51retrocausation I feel like you could
639. 26:52word it you could worded in a completely
640. 26:55different like if I wanted to say that
641. 26:57same principle to like a
642. 27:01uh cynical pragmatic
643. 27:03>> uh like guy who you know even Spinosza
644. 27:08is too much like the the there is no
645. 27:11sort of uh mind and there is no
646. 27:13unconscious there is no whatever there
647. 27:15is no uh there isn't even fate there
648. 27:17isn't whatever whoever you needed to
649. 27:19sell the idea to you can I think it just
650. 27:23it ends up being the case, you know,
651. 27:24that you you collaborate with
652. 27:26randomness. And I think kind of learning
653. 27:28how to ride it is like ride that
654. 27:32>> Yeah.
655. 27:33>> creature is is uh is the thing. I mean,
656. 27:39but even that even riding it can, you
657. 27:41know, that can be rebelling. It like I
658. 27:43feel like, you know, it's not like I
659. 27:45want to
660. 27:47declare that someone can't make a work
661. 27:48of art by constantly rebelling against
662. 27:51their own fate. you know, it's whatever
663. 27:53ends up being there, you won't have that
664. 27:55won't be, you know, clean from start to
665. 27:58finish a construct.
666. 27:59>> Yeah. But even entirely as it came to
667. 28:01>> even then the result is
668. 28:04uh um a consequence of intentionally
669. 28:07struggling against that, you know. So
670. 28:10like
671. 28:11>> that's what I'm Yeah. Yeah. So what
672. 28:12you're saying I think what you're saying
673. 28:13and what I if what I'm hearing is
674. 28:15correctly is like everything that you
675. 28:17produce creatively or maybe even greater
676. 28:20than just creatively
677. 28:22you're in con you're sort of in a
678. 28:24conversation with things that are
679. 28:25outside of yourself you know you can't
680. 28:28like help but be in
681. 28:30>> a a conversation with what's outside of
682. 28:32yourself even if you're the darkest
683. 28:33cynic you know
684. 28:35>> yeah exactly I think yeah the art is
685. 28:38produced by the struggle the artist has
686. 28:40with dot dot
687. 28:43um you know in the toward moving towards
688. 28:46the idea.
689. 28:47>> Yeah. You don't have to go or whatever.
690. 28:51>> No. No. Yeah. But um I I think it's a
691. 28:53very it's a good uh needless to say I
692. 28:56think it was the right choice uh of
693. 28:58harmonies uh the phrasing there cuz you
694. 29:01know with the implications of the sort
695. 29:02of uh faithfulness that he's demanding
696. 29:04the artist in that kind of uh other that
697. 29:08the artist encounters
698. 29:10um wherever the [ __ ] it is.
699. 29:12>> I agree with that. At least I do it.
700. 29:15That's more important than agreeing with
701. 29:17>> Yeah.
702. 29:18>> But yeah, why we talking about this is
703. 29:20the tape thing, right? Yeah, this came
704. 29:21back all the way to the tape. Um,
705. 29:24>> yeah,
706. 29:24>> because we were talking about that one
707. 29:26song. We were trying to hyperfocus on
708. 29:27that one song
709. 29:28>> and all this kind of blossomed out of
710. 29:31>> talking about one of what sounds like
711. 29:34hundreds of your pieces.
712. 29:37>> Yeah. I I I will say um the it's funny
713. 29:42that I I only realized uh recently for
714. 29:46the thing that I've just most recently
715. 29:49made and I'm trying to sort of promote
716. 29:51the most um which is an album called uh
717. 29:55That's Right There It Is Spirit. Um it's
718. 29:59very it's oddly similar without me
719. 30:00thinking about it at all. uh like
720. 30:05because I made it um in Audacity with um
721. 30:11like uh mostly using like single takes
722. 30:17um laid over each other
723. 30:19like by single takes I mean like yeah
724. 30:21just sort of yeah keeping in the
725. 30:24mistakes or whatever.
726. 30:25>> Yeah. Um, and uh I don't have
727. 30:28headphones, so the recording kind of uh
728. 30:32accumulated on itself as it picked up
729. 30:33the other layers and stuff. Um,
730. 30:36uh, and it's yeah, it's produced like
731. 30:38that. And um,
732. 30:41it's very it's it's kind of reminiscent
733. 30:43to the the what I got like, you know,
734. 30:46>> yeah,
735. 30:46>> that stuff I got into when I was like
736. 30:4815, like 10 years ago. Jesus. Um,
737. 30:50>> does this um what kind of what sort of
738. 30:53instrumentation is on this newest work?
739. 30:56>> Um, oh, well, it's funny. It's kind of
740. 30:59like uh it's kind of like my my singer
741. 31:02songwriter album, but like it doesn't
742. 31:04sound like that. It's um it was kind of
743. 31:07um it uses all sorts of things. Um but a
744. 31:13lot of um guitar, electric and acoustic
745. 31:19uh Casio SK1 samples, random bits of
746. 31:23rhythm, noise is lots of different it's
747. 31:27very it's kind of spare and uh minimal.
748. 31:31That's something that does not exist in
749. 31:33my discoraphy for the first couple of
750. 31:35years at all. Um, but it's kind of uh I
751. 31:40was listening to like I was listening
752. 31:42like pretty exclusively like
753. 31:45monomomaniacally except for the fact I'm
754. 31:47going to say two things like to one to
755. 31:51to one song by the like pop folk artist
756. 31:55Adrien Lanka and another song by
757. 32:00uh [ __ ] Dean Blunt and Elias, however
758. 32:04you say his name, which is like none of
759. 32:07my music has ever sounded like those
760. 32:08songs. I I can't do that. But um
761. 32:12it was like the it was what I was
762. 32:13feeding myself with and then what was
763. 32:16coming out was kind of like what happens
764. 32:18if I was to reach in that direction. Uh
765. 32:22so it's a lot of like noisy
766. 32:24fragmentaryary
767. 32:26kind of collagey
768. 32:28recordings
769. 32:30um kind of reaching and failing towards
770. 32:34pop without actually being pop.
771. 32:38Uh yeah.
772. 32:41>> Great. And is it um is it available
773. 32:44anywhere?
774. 32:46>> It's a good this I feel like I feel like
775. 32:48uh No, I don't actually. I was going to
776. 32:50say I feel like Don Draper, but I don't.
777. 32:53>> Well, it's funny because I normally, as
778. 32:55I wind the interview now, normally I ask
779. 32:57people what they're promoting. Anyway,
780. 32:58I'm not like so obtuse that I make you
781. 33:00talk about things that have nothing to
782. 33:02do with the album you're trying to
783. 33:03promote, but like
784. 33:04>> Oh, yeah. I It was quite beneficial for
785. 33:08me that like it totally actually
786. 33:10justifiably came up in Chance Comics.
787. 33:13>> That's much better.
788. 33:16>> I mean, you can hear it on my on the
789. 33:18affforementioned band campus. one of the
790. 33:20things at the top.
791. 33:21>> That's right.
792. 33:21>> And I mean, if if anyone lives uh in
793. 33:25England, I'm I'm selling the album with
794. 33:27some bonus tracks and a Zen uh shows.
795. 33:31>> I was going to say, do you perform out?
796. 33:34>> Yeah. I Well, yeah. like um you asked uh
797. 33:38where I was from like so I'm based in
798. 33:41Nottingham but until like two years ago
799. 33:44when I started doing live shows which I
800. 33:48could talk a bit more about um I was
801. 33:50basically only listened to on this uh
802. 33:55planet Glob 9. I don't know if you're
803. 33:58familiar with that.
804. 33:59>> Garbo 9 the planet. No, I've never been
805. 34:00invited.
806. 34:02No, it's far away, but it's their like,
807. 34:06you know, standard alien fair, like
808. 34:09millions of green [ __ ] Uh, but they
809. 34:12was like the only place that had paid
810. 34:14any attention to me. I was kind of like
811. 34:16their like Taylor Swift, so I got to
812. 34:18like
813. 34:18>> Okay.
814. 34:20>> a lot of um like
815. 34:23Yeah, it was I I would have to sort of
816. 34:25cater to their interests.
817. 34:26>> You were like,
818. 34:28>> alien sports stars.
819. 34:29>> Never.
820. 34:30>> Never.
821. 34:32No,
822. 34:34but I had a roommate for a while, one of
823. 34:36them. But anyway, uh it's like how the
824. 34:39cardigans bigger in Japan, you know?
825. 34:43>> You know the cardigans?
826. 34:45>> Yeah, apparently that's true. Apparently
827. 34:46they're like weirdly big in Japan, but
828. 34:48it's like it's a sort of funny like
829. 34:51aesthetic uh coincidence that like that
830. 34:54was exactly what the the Japanese uh
831. 34:57sort of consensus cultural was at the
832. 34:59time.
833. 35:00>> Good for them. Yeah, but um
834. 35:03yeah, so you know, I'm kind of
835. 35:06contractually obliged to mention them at
836. 35:08least once. So, I get my Garbo Arts
837. 35:10funding, so I had to throw that in
838. 35:12there.
839. 35:13>> You want to spell that there?
840. 35:14>> I do play
841. 35:16I I've never uh I've never played there.
842. 35:18I I play in Nottingham uh and No. Yeah,
843. 35:21[ __ ] anywhere. I guess I've played in
844. 35:23the UK only so far. Uh but um yeah, I
845. 35:28started playing shows. I didn't know
846. 35:31anything existed that was like
847. 35:33interesting like in Nottingham. Um I had
848. 35:36no idea. I was very much like the the
849. 35:39big early
850. 35:41bulk of my experience with art and music
851. 35:44was like sort of online enclaves of like
852. 35:49sort of weird teenagers
853. 35:52like and I didn't know that there was
854. 35:54anything worth caring about like outside
855. 35:56you know
856. 35:57>> um and then like two years ago I got an
857. 36:00email from this uh this thing called
858. 36:03Raml which is like uh They put on shows.
859. 36:07They've been putting on shows for
860. 36:08[ __ ] years, like a decade. um in
861. 36:12Nottingham cuz they'd just come across
862. 36:14me and wanted me to play uh and kind of
863. 36:18just got I kind of just got like very
864. 36:20suddenly tapped into the fact that like
865. 36:22there was actually a [ __ ] great
866. 36:25experimental music scene uh in the UK in
867. 36:29general, but especially in Nottingham.
868. 36:31I'm very grateful for it cuz like I've
869. 36:33played shows in bigger cities that seem
870. 36:36like bigger deals and there's always
871. 36:39less people than in Nottingham cuz I
872. 36:42guess the the fewer people turn out
873. 36:45more. But yeah, no, I play I play
874. 36:49whenever I get the opportunity to um in
875. 36:53the UK and
876. 36:56[ __ ] wherever. I mean, if someone
877. 36:58wants me to go to Cambodia, I might do
878. 37:00that.
879. 37:01That's interesting that you say that
880. 37:02that's the way it works in UK too
881. 37:04because here in the States um
882. 37:06>> if you do if you do a show in a huge
883. 37:08city like New York City or or something
884. 37:10like that.
885. 37:11>> Yeah.
886. 37:12>> It's like you're you're drowning in a
887. 37:14sea of 5,000 other shows and so people
888. 37:17don't show up. But I but like the the
889. 37:19smaller mid midtown cities like Fargo,
890. 37:22North Dakota have like an amazing
891. 37:24experimental scene. So that's how we're
892. 37:27>> Yeah, that makes sense.
893. 37:28>> Yeah.
894. 37:29>> Me too. I think there's there's most
895. 37:31definitely a matter of like effort that
896. 37:34is like very fruitful
897. 37:37like for rece like I know cuz after that
898. 37:41uh sort of bring being brought out of my
899. 37:43hermitude by these shows I'm like very
900. 37:47very good friends with uh the people who
901. 37:50put on the raml and I know they probably
902. 37:53won't mind me saying this they they lose
903. 37:55money doing it but like
904. 37:57>> they still do it and they do it like
905. 38:00really well and they have a a good sense
906. 38:03of curation but also like variety and
907. 38:06they you know the the the gigs are just
908. 38:09always really fun and good and you know
909. 38:13like they they put that like work in and
910. 38:16I feel like that's like really paying
911. 38:18off in terms of just like people wanting
912. 38:21to like cool acts wanting to play at
913. 38:24Raml gigs and just people wanting to
914. 38:26come back out to them. I feel like very
915. 38:28grateful for like the kind of uh sort of
916. 38:31sacrifices to the fertility of a music
917. 38:34scene made by people having to sort of
918. 38:36go out of their way to make something
919. 38:38exist even if it doesn't come at any
920. 38:41kind of immediate benefit as
921. 38:42recognizable by the pragmatic world.
922. 38:45>> Yeah, it's definitely got a mission
923. 38:47quality to it.
924. 38:49>> Yeah.
925. 38:51>> Okay. So, what a fantastic conversation.
926. 38:54Um I always wrap it up with three
927. 38:57questions. So, you kind of answered all
928. 38:59of them, but I'm just going to go down
929. 39:00them anyway. Uh, number three is, is
930. 39:03there anything you'd like to promote?
931. 39:06>> Oh, uh,
932. 39:10yeah. Ah, yeah. [ __ ] Kind of jumped the
933. 39:12gun there, didn't I? Um,
934. 39:16yeah. I mean, I think that, uh, that
935. 39:19album, that's right, there it is.
936. 39:21spirit. There's if you download it,
937. 39:23which you can do for free, there's a zen
938. 39:26attached to it. I've kind of uh like I'm
939. 39:31very inspired by uh was I No, that
940. 39:34doesn't make sense. I'm I'm I'm uh I
941. 39:38write and I've just written a a short
942. 39:40story that I'm like kind of proud of.
943. 39:44So, I'm trying to like trying to get it
944. 39:46out there. So, if you listen to that
945. 39:48album, you might not like it. you might
946. 39:50like it, but then also it would entitle
947. 39:52you to it would allow you to read this
948. 39:54short story.
949. 39:55>> Cool.
950. 39:55>> Uh is that that's my focus. That's the
951. 39:59uh that's the brand focus right now.
952. 40:02>> And uh question number two is a bit more
953. 40:05broad. It is um what is most important?
954. 40:20Okay.
955. 40:23Okay. Give me a minute.
956. 40:32It's a weird question to answer because
957. 40:34in some ways I think art is an inherent
958. 40:36conflict of life. So like to answer
959. 40:40as an artist and to answer as a person,
960. 40:42I feel like I'm genuinely at odds with
961. 40:44myself. Um,
962. 40:47like I think
963. 40:50I think my my my real my realist answer
964. 40:54is the capital L love is the most
965. 40:57important thing. But I also think that
966. 41:02the construction of anything
967. 41:04artistically, whether it's pros or
968. 41:06poetry or music or visual art or
969. 41:09whatever, like
970. 41:12it demands
971. 41:14uh I think it demands more of yourself
972. 41:16than you'll ever be willing to take in
973. 41:19in terms of like producing something
974. 41:20that actually uh you know uh demands
975. 41:25itself into existence, but then also
976. 41:28Like
977. 41:30I think the pursuit of that like well I
978. 41:32don't know is I'm thinking of this
979. 41:34Forkner interview where I wouldn't say
980. 41:38this exactly but he quite cruy is like
981. 41:41you know the production of the the
982. 41:42production of the piece of work the art
983. 41:44should be like more important to the
984. 41:46writer than anything else even like you
985. 41:49know
986. 41:50even like you know his own his own
987. 41:52grandmother like you know you should rob
988. 41:54and steal from her if if it means that
989. 41:56you can you
990. 41:58complete the work. I think that like but
991. 42:01that's I'm at odds with myself about
992. 42:02that in a way that I don't think is uh I
993. 42:06can do anything about. I think in order
994. 42:08to like [ __ ] like like pierce into
995. 42:12the body of like human possibility when
996. 42:14it comes to creation, like
997. 42:18you have to be willing to distort
998. 42:22yourself to be uncomfortable with
999. 42:24yourself or to to to go beyond to make a
1000. 42:27blood sacrifice to like to uh produce
1001. 42:30something that will matter. But then at
1002. 42:34the same time in life I believe
1003. 42:36deferring to love uh always always.
1004. 42:41So I'm completely at odds with myself
1005. 42:43there. But I think I've just accepted
1006. 42:45that.
1007. 42:46>> Normally I wouldn't be conversational
1008. 42:47about this question but it's intrigued
1009. 42:49me. So I'm going to say something.
1010. 42:50>> I had no other way to answer it. I um I
1011. 42:53do I very I very firmly will defer to
1012. 42:56love in life but I will defer to art
1013. 43:01whatever. I guess the short version of
1014. 43:03what I was think going to say based on
1015. 43:05what you just said is
1016. 43:06>> there might be a way in which those two
1017. 43:08things are the same thing.
1018. 43:10>> Yeah.
1019. 43:12>> That we don't really fully get. And then
1020. 43:16I think that's enough. But final
1021. 43:19question is um
1022. 43:24>> was there anything in particular you
1023. 43:26were hoping to talk about that we didn't
1024. 43:28address? And if so, you can feel free.
1025. 43:33>> Um
1026. 43:37h I was just in my head I was wondering
1027. 43:40how funny it would be to be like
1028. 43:41Ukraine, but no stuff like that though.
1029. 43:46>> Um
1030. 43:50[ __ ] Uh, the only thing I did in my
1031. 43:54head, like not knowing what you were
1032. 43:56going to talk about or what the format
1033. 43:57was going to be, the only thing I had in
1034. 43:59my head when thinking about myself,
1035. 44:01pondering myself narcissistically in
1036. 44:04preparation for this was I realized that
1037. 44:06um there's a similarity in the people
1038. 44:11who've like inspired me in the biggest
1039. 44:13ways over the years, which
1040. 44:16to narrow it down, I would say is
1041. 44:20uh
1042. 44:21James Ferraro, Harmony Karine and Ezra
1043. 44:24Pound in as much as they've always
1044. 44:28uh sort of tored the voice that is used.
1045. 44:32They sort of uh produce things from
1046. 44:36uh perspectives that aren't their own
1047. 44:38with absurdity but like a commitment to
1048. 44:41the the truth beneath that. Like you
1049. 44:45know, James Far made albums under a
1050. 44:47billion different aliases with different
1051. 44:49sounds. Omni Korean sort of uh
1052. 44:51impersonates
1053. 44:53uh you know personas and caricatures
1054. 44:55across his work and Ezra Pound's like
1055. 44:58early stuff is is all concerned with
1056. 45:01faithfully imitating the the voices of
1057. 45:03the the past but bringing them into the
1058. 45:05present and I just realized that that's
1059. 45:07like a that throughine of appreciation
1060. 45:11really shows up in me like a kind of a
1061. 45:13constant um
1062. 45:15use of different masks. In fact, I was I
1063. 45:19was assuming I'd end up talking about my
1064. 45:20live show, which I'm doing at the
1065. 45:23moment, which I'm going to be hopefully
1066. 45:25going on on tour towards the end of the
1067. 45:27year. But I do a thing where I uh I
1068. 45:30allow a sort of the spirit of a trucker,
1069. 45:34of a of a long haul trucker who's stuck
1070. 45:36in a state of reincarnation to like
1071. 45:38enter my body and do a kind of rock and
1072. 45:41roll seance for people at shows. Um,
1073. 45:46most of it is kind of like
1074. 45:49I mean to be honest it's kind of people
1075. 45:51always tell me they can't understand
1076. 45:52what I'm saying but it's basically like
1077. 45:54a sort of like [ __ ] standup comedy in
1078. 45:57a sense sort of a rambling from this
1079. 46:00persona's perspective or whatever. But
1080. 46:02um
1081. 46:04yeah, I don't know. I thought I was
1082. 46:05going to I was going to try and make
1083. 46:07that come up.
1084. 46:10>> Well, it did. But you didn't have to
1085. 46:12make it.
1086. 46:12>> I did. I made it happen. I put love
1087. 46:15aside. I made it happen brutally.
1088. 46:18>> Or have to get back to Is it because
1089. 46:20you're serving love by helping this
1090. 46:24disembodied trucker? You see, it could
1091. 46:26be the same thing.
1092. 46:27>> Well, the thing is you said you said
1093. 46:29that thing about the same thing and then
1094. 46:30you said that's enough about that. I
1095. 46:32have thought I it bothers me because I
1096. 46:34have I actually have thoughts about
1097. 46:36about that. Uh but I don't know if you
1098. 46:39want to keep it.
1099. 46:40>> There's no limits. Go ahead.
1100. 46:42Oh, okay. Cool. Uh, it's interesting you
1101. 46:45say that. I feel like that's to me I
1102. 46:47think it's true in as much as
1103. 46:51I guess love has to be kind of uh
1104. 46:54considered more articulately like
1105. 46:58especially especially in the sense of
1106. 47:00like historic time. I think like
1107. 47:05uh like what's like I think what's
1108. 47:09loving to a person is not exclusively
1109. 47:12but it's what's nourishing to them like
1110. 47:14is what uh gods them into a kind of
1111. 47:18greater uh unfolding of themselves.
1112. 47:20That's not my definition of love, but
1113. 47:23that's part of love, which is kind of
1114. 47:26how I would reckon with the the premise
1115. 47:29of an allloving God uh giving us this
1116. 47:33existence where and you know and that's
1117. 47:35obviously you can think about like why
1118. 47:38do we have to go through the book of Job
1119. 47:40and like thinking about that stuff
1120. 47:44I thought about how like the most
1121. 47:45impactful pieces of like
1122. 47:49uh human media
1123. 47:51you know, kind of show us that what's
1124. 47:55what's the most like important to us and
1125. 47:59uh developing of us and revealing of the
1126. 48:02beauty of existence. You know, I I think
1127. 48:05about like it's kind of like, you know,
1128. 48:06like for the [ __ ] the Iliad and the
1129. 48:09Odyssey and, you know, examples where
1130. 48:12like mankind is uh pushed into
1131. 48:17experiences that are not in immediate
1132. 48:20moments pleasant that you wouldn't think
1133. 48:23of as love per se, but only out of that
1134. 48:26experience has anything kind of uh worth
1135. 48:30talking about been produced like how
1136. 48:31it's been has been uh beauty has come
1137. 48:34out of that like a maturation and like
1138. 48:36in a sense there's like a timeless love
1139. 48:38and there's a love in in time where I
1140. 48:40think it is a gesture of love to make
1141. 48:43good art for people at the expense of
1142. 48:45people and yourself because you're
1143. 48:49helping them you're giving them the the
1144. 48:52like the rips in their carropaces they
1145. 48:54grow like they actually carropaces don't
1146. 48:56do that they creep but oh that made me
1147. 48:59sound so autistic okay wait never mind
1148. 49:03You know, I think I think putting people
1149. 49:05art demonstrates like a principle of
1150. 49:09loving people by putting them through
1151. 49:10experiences that may not seem loving
1152. 49:13because I think the full development of
1153. 49:15a human being is kind of like
1154. 49:19it's at least it's at least the kind of
1155. 49:21love that God gives us while we're here.
1156. 49:24Whereas the timeless kind of love is is
1157. 49:27this kind of is a complete different
1158. 49:29thing. And I think is is the kind of
1159. 49:30love you engage in when you're with a
1160. 49:31lover. Like when you hug and hold
1161. 49:34somebody, you're kind of imitating a
1162. 49:36bliss that doesn't have to end, even
1163. 49:38though it does have to end. But in life,
1164. 49:40in life, if you were doing that all the
1165. 49:42time, you would not experience the
1166. 49:44fullness of being a human being. You
1167. 49:46would you would have a [ __ ] life, you
1168. 49:48know? You need to be tested, trial, and
1169. 49:52whatnot. And I think that if you think
1170. 49:54about
1171. 49:55art and the art you like and stuff, you
1172. 49:58know, it's it's all a kind of uh it's
1173. 50:02all just documentations of growing
1174. 50:04pains. And in that way, I do think that
1175. 50:07love and art in the way I was talking
1176. 50:10about it are the same thing, but it's
1177. 50:12not a love that people are going to
1178. 50:13enjoy immediately. But I think it's
1179. 50:15necessary. I think it's absolutely
1180. 50:17necessary.
1181. 50:19>> I I I I think I follow what you're
1182. 50:21saying.
1183. 50:22I used to um
1184. 50:24>> I used to say that there's value in
1185. 50:28experimental art sometimes almost in the
1186. 50:32sense of the fact that um
1187. 50:35you know an oyster needs a particle of
1188. 50:38sand in order to produce a pearl like
1189. 50:40>> oh that's
1190. 50:42>> like um we're presenting
1191. 50:46even to ordinary people who quote
1192. 50:47unquote don't get it quote unquote quote
1193. 50:49unquote um You're presenting them with
1194. 50:52something that creates a process of
1195. 50:54stimulation and and vexation in their
1196. 50:56subconscious at least that
1197. 50:59>> causes them to struggle with some kind
1198. 51:01of idea or some kind of notion of
1199. 51:02reality or some kind of expectation that
1200. 51:04they have
1201. 51:05>> and like but it's a much safer way to do
1202. 51:08it
1203. 51:09>> than going out and getting hit by a
1204. 51:11badger,
1205. 51:12>> you know, like
1206. 51:13>> Oh, that's actually I love that. Yeah.
1207. 51:15It's almost like um uh art as a
1208. 51:18sublimation of paint as opposed to
1209. 51:20people saying like art as a sublimation
1210. 51:23of love or something.
1211. 51:24>> Yes.
1212. 51:25>> Like uh yeah, the metaphor is perfect.
1213. 51:29>> Yes. It stimulates and simulates the
1214. 51:32process we would go through with
1215. 51:33something that's actually dangerous that
1216. 51:35would make us better people for
1217. 51:36contending with it, but it's not
1218. 51:39actually dangerous. So it's
1219. 51:41>> Yeah.
1220. 51:42>> Yeah.
1221. 51:43>> Yeah. And I guess we don't have control
1222. 51:45over the uh the stimuli that is actually
1223. 51:48dangerous which I guess the the
1224. 51:49wellspring of the human existence we do
1225. 51:52have control.
1226. 51:53>> Right. Exactly.
1227. 51:54>> Yeah. Yeah.
1228. 51:55>> Exactly.
1229. 51:56>> Yeah. That's wonderful.
1230. 51:58I do think that reckoning with the
1231. 52:00difference or with the fact that like uh
1232. 52:04reckoning with the fact that like
1233. 52:07oh actually [ __ ] it I might have just I
1234. 52:10might just lost it.
1235. 52:12Yeah. I might just lost it. I think I've
1236. 52:14probably already
1237. 52:16>> I think enough has been said for now.
1238. 52:22>> Got it. How do you feel?
1239. 52:25>> Um
1240. 52:28uh I don't breathe enough when I talk,
1241. 52:30so I'm a little out of breath is how I
1242. 52:32feel. I feel I feel good. I've had a
1243. 52:35good good time talking to you. It uh
1244. 52:38it's been fun. It's stimulating.
1245. 52:41Uh, I thought it was I [ __ ] up and and
1246. 52:45leave this in. I [ __ ] up and thought
1247. 52:46it was like the other day when you asked
1248. 52:49me what time to call. I thought that
1249. 52:51that day was the same day you wanted to
1250. 52:53call and I was like super nervous and I
1251. 52:56like it was really sunny. It was like
1252. 52:58horribly hot in England right now. It
1253. 53:01was really sunny and I accidentally
1254. 53:03stumbled across the movie Badlands by
1255. 53:06Terrence Malik. Um, but I didn't know
1256. 53:08what it was about and I thought it was
1257. 53:10beautiful and I was like, you know what?
1258. 53:11I'm going to go get a cigarette. I'm
1259. 53:12going to buy a Coca-Cola from the shops
1260. 53:14and I'm going to sit in the sun, watch
1261. 53:16Badlands and like and then and then have
1262. 53:19this conversation and it'll have set me
1263. 53:21on the right path. And then I watch
1264. 53:23Badlands and it's about a [ __ ] you
1265. 53:25know, I mean, he's a beautiful
1266. 53:27character, but he's a pedophile in a
1267. 53:28way.
1268. 53:29>> Jesus Christ.
1269. 53:30>> So then I was like, "Oh no. Oh no. What
1270. 53:32have I done?" But then we didn't have
1271. 53:33the interview, so it was fine. Well,
1272. 53:36that's a great example of how art
1273. 53:38provides you with the negative
1274. 53:39stimulation that helps you grow without
1275. 53:40it actually happening. So,
1276. 53:42>> oh yeah, also in me dodging, narrowly
1277. 53:46dodging
1278. 53:48across as a pedophile.
1279. 53:50>> End it on that.
1280. 53:51>> Okay, let's end it on that. Um, thank
1281. 53:53you for this conversation and it will
1282. 53:56most likely be in our July 1st edition,
1283. 53:59although there's a chance it'll be in
1284. 54:00August 1. I will let you know.
1285. 54:03>> Cool.
1286. 54:04Yeah. No worries. Thank you very much. I
1287. 54:07really enjoyed it.
1288. 54:07>> Yep. Me, too. Have a great night.