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Islamist Starts CRYING After Ayaan Hirsi Ali Crushes Islam! — Transcript

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0:00I want to show you this clip of Ayan
0:02Hersy Ali destroying this Islamist
0:04sympathizing panel. I showed you another
0:07clip just a few days ago where she did
0:08that with a group of women. Have a watch
0:10this clip because she is just so good at
0:13debunking the the the politically
0:16correct nonsense. Watch.
0:17>> All three of you, I think, also
0:19acknowledge that the majority of people
0:21who identify as Muslims around the world
0:23are not engaged in violence. It seems to
0:25me that where there is some difference
0:27is this question of whether the acts of
0:30violence by a small minority define the
0:33faith or are a perversion uh and a
0:36hijacking of the faith. And I want to go
0:39um first to you Ayan Hercieli. We just
0:42heard uh Imam Fisel uh make the point he
0:45made an analogy to um uh episodes
0:48historical episodes of wrongdoing by by
0:51faith that are more familiar. for for
0:53example in Richmond Virginia Christian
0:55uh faith of course uh historically wars
0:57have been fought by Christians uh with
0:59each other and against uh other groups
1:02and yet there's no tendency in our
1:04culture therefore to say that there's
1:06fundamentally something wrong at the
1:08root of Christianity and its definition
1:10and I'd like to ask you why you make
1:11that leap in the case of uh Islam and
1:15Muslims.
1:17Um what I do is I sorry um what I do is
1:21I listen to the men mostly they are men
1:25there are some women most but mostly men
1:27who invoke the founding documents of
1:30Islam and the founding father of Islam
1:33and I look at what they say and um and
1:37then I think is that in the Quran uh for
1:40instance I as you probably all know I'm
1:43very much concerned about the subjection
1:44of women Um, so when I read a verse in
1:48the Quran that says that men are the
1:51maintenance of women and that husbands
1:54are allowed to hit their wives, I see I
1:58I look at that verse in a way and I
2:01think you can read that in context
2:03in its historical context or you can
2:05apply it to our times. And the men who
2:09are doing that, who are applying all of
2:11these verses and the example of the
2:13prophet Muhammad not to the seventh
2:15century but to our time
2:18um
2:20I find and it's very unfortunate but I
2:24find them to be far more influential in
2:27inspiring and mobilizing young men to
2:30see the religion of Islam the way they
2:32see it than the way either Imam Fisel
2:36says he sees it or Majid Noah says he
2:39sees it and and that's a fact. You know,
2:41you look at al-Qaeda, al-Qaeda does not
2:44use Bin Laden to recruit new people.
2:47Al-Qaeda uses the Quran and the Prophet
2:49Muhammad to recruit young men. So that
2:51we have to stop this denial and at some
2:54point try and address the influence of
2:58these documents. And the way to do it is
2:59to
3:01you know to look at what is in there and
3:04not not deny it. It's just the denial
3:07that is so incredibly frustrating.
3:09>> The terrorist groups such as al-Qaeda,
3:11they all come from the strand of
3:13Islamism that I described or the
3:15politicization of Islam. And then there
3:17are the fundamentalists. The governor of
3:20Punjab in Pakistan was assassinated by
3:22his own bodyguard because he attempted
3:25to reform the blasphemy law in that
3:27country. And the sad fact is that the
3:32very people the very phenomenon that
3:34have been the fiercest in opposing the
3:37the strand of Islamism in Pakistan also
3:41produced the assassin of the governor of
3:43Punjab because they are
3:45ultra-conservative and the one thing
3:47that fuels their fire and angers them is
3:51questioning the blasphemy law and that's
3:53the second strand I address which is the
3:54fundamentalist strand. So in Ayan's
3:57analysis of what the problem is, I would
4:00agree with her. But then when Ayan goes
4:02back to the cause and says the cause for
4:04that problem
4:06is somehow to be found only in the
4:10religion of Islam exclusively.
4:12>> No, no, no, no. We are talking the
4:14subject tonight is is the religion of
4:16Islam one of peace or one of violence.
4:19>> Right. So the debate is not on
4:22Christianity or other religions. I know
4:24that it is difficult to talk about the
4:27violence but I don't think it's right to
4:30continue.
4:31>> Let's let Maji
4:34either either [applause]
4:40either either we must be consistent
4:42either the problem is religion per se or
4:47if we don't want to say that if we don't
4:48want to say that every single religion
4:50and there are people that say that
4:51Richard Dawkins is one of them. Yeah.
4:53who is as consistent against
4:55Christianity as he is against Islam and
4:57Judaism and all faith will stop
5:00>> or we say okay if the problem isn't
5:02religion per se then it must be about
5:05the way that religion is interpreted and
5:08if that's if that's the point then I
5:09agree with Aam that today today there
5:12are serious challenges with the way
5:14Islam is interpreted and I wish Muslims
5:16were doing more to challenge those
5:18interpretations not just in the
5:19political sense but also in the social
5:21sense we need to hear more voices speak
5:23out.
5:24>> I've got to say that I I don't I I
5:26really struggle with this one because
5:29you're telling me that the problem is
5:32about how religion gets interpreted.
5:36Well, does anyone have any concerns,
5:39widespread concerns about how Buddhism
5:41gets interpreted? Because there's many
5:43ways in which it could get interpreted
5:44or Hinduism, how that could get
5:45interpreted.
5:49No, the concerns have been historically
5:51by the way Christianity there was a big
5:53some serious issues there in terms of
5:55how some bits were interpreted
5:56particularly for the Jewish community
5:57but they've dealt with that not entirely
6:00but many many segments have there's a
6:03specific issue with Islam so why are you
6:05broadening it out to religion when there
6:09are specific things within I would say
6:12the Quran that I just think are
6:16incomparably
6:18uh more insightful, violent, uh
6:22potentially inflammatory and and causing
6:24all the kind of problems we see today
6:26that you just that you can't necessarily
6:28compare in any same way to many many
6:32other faiths and and that I think is the
6:36the the conflation that's being made
6:37here that I just I I don't really
6:40accept. I think yes there is something
6:43about interpretation. Again I mentioned
6:45the you know in Christianity things have
6:47been interpreted certain things in in
6:49the New Testament that that did cause
6:51issues and they had to relook at that
6:54particularly uh you know in in the last
6:57century. Um, but uh at the end of the
7:01day to pretend that there isn't a
7:03specific issue here with Islam, I think
7:06is uh
7:08it's just not being intellectually
7:10honest because there is sadly a lot of
7:12subject material there that jihadists
7:15and the radicals draw upon. Danny
7:17Burawi, who I interviewed, a former
7:18Muslim from Jordan, said that it is the
7:20radicals who are interpreting it
7:22literally. There's lots more subject
7:24material in the Quran that lends itself
7:27to these kinds of problems. That's just
7:30the truth of it.
7:31>> There are many reasons why they don't.
7:32>> What are the reasons?
7:33>> Well, you know, two of us on this stage,
7:36I don't know about the imam, and forgive
7:37me, but I hope I am mistaken, but Ayan
7:40and I both live with death threats over
7:41our lives. And and the reasons for that
7:43just last month after the Kenya mall
7:45attack, the Somali al-Shabaab added me
7:47to their hit list. You know, it's the
7:49fact that you're both under death
7:50threats for speaking the way you're
7:51speaking that raises the spectre of the
7:53notion of Islam as a religion of
7:55violence. It it's a very bad headline.
7:58>> Of course. Well,
8:02>> that's that's a that's a point that of
8:04course
8:04>> and that's really why we're here and to
8:06hear why that's not true.
8:07>> That's a point that would resonate
8:08except let's not let's remember one
8:09thing. It takes one person and their dog
8:13to issue a death threat. Frankly, you
8:15know, I mean, it's easy to issue death
8:17threat. That doesn't mean the majority
8:18of Muslims want to kill us. That means
8:20there are groups out there.
8:21>> I I I take that point completely and and
8:24and that this is the thing that I keep
8:26asking myself. If if you if you all
8:28agree if you all will stipulate that the
8:31majority of Muslims are not involved in
8:33violence and or interested in being
8:35involved in violence and if the
8:36behaviors of the people of a particular
8:38faith in my mind would define that faith
8:41then why does that not tell us by it by
8:43the virtue of the fact that most Muslims
8:45don't want to be involved in violence
8:46that Islam is not a religion of violence
8:48>> I think
8:49>> isn't it you you walk like a duck and
8:50you talk like a duck
8:51>> yes you walk like yes exactly quack
8:53quack
8:54>> because the [laughter]
8:57The violent ones are the ones that get
8:58the whole news headlines,
8:59>> right?
9:00>> I mean, I don't get, you know, you don't
9:02get news attention because of being
9:04being moderate or or promoting peace.
9:06>> I'm sure's going to speak in a second.
9:08I'll be quick in this point, but I have
9:09to say that there's there's a few issues
9:12here that they're conflating. Again,
9:14okay, yes, most Muslims are not violent.
9:17Um, but then the question is, what about
9:19who are the ones that are leading the
9:21cultural, civilizational, uh, religious
9:24world? That's what matters. Don't forget
9:26the Nazis um didn't get the majority of
9:29German support, but they led the agenda.
9:32And then secondly, how much sympathy is
9:34there? Not necessarily they would be
9:36themselves be violent, but how much
9:37sympathy is there for jihadist stuff and
9:40terrorism? And sadly, polling shows that
9:43there is widespread support for jihadi
9:46terrorist activities like kamas um etc.
9:50Um, and this exists uh sadly throughout
9:53um throughout the Muslim world. Um,
9:57yeah. And that's part of the problem as
9:59well, is it not? Because once you, you
10:01know, you might not have the majority or
10:03even a substantial minority that are
10:06involved in violence, even though, by
10:07the way, a small minority is still
10:08millions and million millions of people.
10:10Um, but if you have a culture that's
10:12growing that supports this kind of
10:14stuff, that lends itself to this kind of
10:15stuff, that in of itself is a massive
10:17massive problem. uh you know you you get
10:20the attention when you commit acts of
10:22violence.
10:23>> Well, look, Yidsak Rabbine was shot by a
10:25fanatic Jewish extremist and nobody
10:30leaps from that to thinking that Judaism
10:32is an extremely violent religion even
10:35though that young man brought
10:38essentially brings the text to to his to
10:40his action. And yet with Islam the that
10:43leap is often made and I'm trying to
10:44understand why you think that is. I I
10:46want to point out we can't
10:48>> actually let me I I actually wanted to
10:50put the question to Imam Ruth first and
10:51then I'll come to you.
10:52>> Well it is made because that
10:55>> by the way there's so many causitive
10:56distinctions there that one has to make
10:58with the Sakurin assassination. Uh first
11:01of all this was a political targeting
11:03whereas terrorism is literally just
11:05targeting civilians indiscriminately.
11:08Um so there's a qualitative distinction
11:10there. Um and secondly the issue is you
11:14know again about uh frequency right and
11:18how widespread is this and how much
11:19widespread support is there for this
11:21kind of stuff that's the distinction
11:22>> that link is not made because as
11:24Christians and as Jews you you get it
11:25you understand the the political
11:27motivation behind it
11:29>> the vast majority of Muslims do not make
11:31that link either the vast majority of
11:34Muslims see these things as as not uh
11:39not legitimately interpreting the
11:40religion of Islam or something outside
11:42the state of Islam just like the
11:44majority of Jews would not consider the
11:47the assassin of Jakabin as legitimately
11:50expressing the Jewish faith. Uh this is
11:53very much the case in the in the vast
11:54majority of the Muslim world.
11:56>> So it's it's what you're really saying
11:59is it's our I'm talking collectively our
12:03culture here. It's our not knowing
12:05uh enough about Islam or enough about
12:08Muslims. It's it's about the way
12:09perceptions are shaped.
12:11>> Mhm.
12:12>> Perceptions are shaped by events very
12:15much for most people. And just like you
12:18know when I'm in Muslim majority
12:20countries they will say why is America
12:22attacking Islam. They view that. Why?
12:24Because when some major in in the US
12:27military says we're in Iraq because this
12:29is a crusade against Islam. That gets a
12:31banner headline in the Muslim world. So
12:33that shapes perception.
12:34>> And is it a very powerful way? Is it the
12:36view in the Muslim world that this
12:38country, our country is dedicated to
12:40destroying Islam?
12:41>> There are there are large numbers of
12:43people who feel that way based upon
12:45these types of headlines. This is why I
12:47said that the cycle of extremist actions
12:50and extremist statements get the banner
12:52headlines in each in each country. So
12:54when an Ayatollah in Iran saying death
12:57to America, this scares Americans and
12:59Americans get this image that the
13:01Iranians are out to destroy and Islam is
13:03about to destroy America. Then you have,
13:05you know, a a military general who says
13:08this and then somebody commits an act.
13:10>> You know, I get so frustrated by all of
13:12this because at the end of the day, this
13:14is just trying to whitewash and wash
13:16over, you know, the serious existential
13:19security threats and problems that the
13:21West and Israel America are facing. And
13:22they do it all in their kind of comfy uh
13:25couches and their smart suits. What are
13:27we really getting so worked up about and
13:29so worried about? But of course it costs
13:31lives this kind of naivity and uh
13:33distraction
13:34>> violence that gets the headlines over
13:35here. Then you have a pastor who has
13:37only 30 people in Florida saying he's
13:39going to burn the Quran and then it
13:41results in acts of violence. So the the
13:44the the media grabbing these extremist
13:46events helps shapes perceptions and
13:49creates this sense of revulsion that
13:51people have and the tendency to then
13:53whitewash all of those people and say
13:56well this America's against us or the
13:58west is against us. I only been very
14:00patient. Go ahead.
14:01>> Yeah, I've been very patient. Thank you
14:02very much. So, is it is it the
14:06packaging, the marketing, or is it the
14:10substance? Okay.
14:13In America, in the Western world, there
14:16are continuous debates about the place
14:18of Muslims. And yes, in amongst Muslims
14:22in the west and amongst Muslims outside
14:25of the West, there is this general
14:28belief that Islam is under siege and
14:30that Americans want to destroy Islam.
14:33That is a matter of perception because
14:35it's not supported by facts. Now we look
14:40at Islam and I look at Islamic countries
14:42like Pakistan and they have blasphemy
14:44laws. Part of the constitution of
14:46Pakistan is derived from or founded on
14:49the Quran or the hadith. Um the
14:51constitution of Iran is Islamic.
14:55The constitution of Saudi Arabia is the
14:58Quran. You look at movements like the
15:00Muslim Brotherhood and the Islamists in
15:02uh the countries that have sprung up
15:04after the Arab Spring and these
15:07movements want to organize society along
15:11religious lines. this conflation
15:15between politics and religion. This is
15:18not something that I am imagining.
15:20[clears throat] It's not a packaging
15:21problem. It's substantial. So when you
15:24give the example of the murderer of its
15:27Rabbin, uh he is a fringe. The state of
15:30Israel is not
15:32>> and he's in jail
15:33>> and he is in jail. And the Christian
15:35extremists here in the United States who
15:39take the Bible and then use it to um
15:43kill people and hurt people, they are
15:45the fringe. But unfortunately, what we
15:48are seeing in Muslim countries is that
15:50the people who feel that they should be
15:53governed under the Sharia law are not a
15:56fringe. In some countries, they are a
15:58mainstream.
16:00>> In some countries, they are a minority.
16:02But in any case, it's a huge obstacle
16:05that cannot be ignored. And Islam can
16:07become a religion of peace. If politics
16:11is divorced from religion, if science is
16:14divorced from religion and and for that
16:18we need a reformation.
16:19>> Specifically, why is there so much
16:21violence against and oppression of
16:24women? Is this a problem of substance or
16:27is it a problem of interpretation? Does
16:29the Quran specifically justify and
16:32condone it?
16:34Ayon, I think as the feminist, well,
16:36maybe everyone here is a feminist, but
16:38as you're the female feminist on the
16:40panel, [laughter]
16:41I'll give you first crack at that.
16:43>> Um, well, thank you very much. Um,
16:47I find enough verses in the Quran and in
16:50the Hadith and in the practice of Islam
16:52to show that as a woman in Islam, you
16:55have to have a male guardian. you don't
16:57own your sexuality. Um, you know, all
17:00the examples that I mentioned. So, that
17:04is meat. It's substance. And when I call
17:09for a reformation, I am calling for an
17:13editing, a review of that so that uh men
17:17who do not want to oppress women um can
17:21find consistency within their scripture
17:24and the way they practice Islam. Right
17:27now what you see when it comes to
17:29violence whether it is against women or
17:31against religious minorities or even you
17:33know Shia and Sunnis what you see is
17:36there are peaceloving Muslims who are
17:39put in a position of cognitive
17:41dissonance. They want to live and they
17:44do lead lives that are not conssonant
17:48with what the Quran says and the example
17:50of the prophet Muhammad. And I think the
17:52way forward is to stop the denial, the
17:56evasion and to look at this and to
17:59modify it. We live in a country that
18:00allows us to do that. United States is
18:03founded on innovation and there's this
18:05enormous opportunity um today for
18:08Muslims. As we look at the world that we
18:11were born in and the world we come from,
18:13there's this enormous opportunity here
18:15in the US to look at scripture in the
18:17eye and to innovate and to reform. And
18:20unless that is done, that dissonance is
18:23going to be there. And the people who
18:24invoke the verses and the practice of
18:27the prophet to justify the subjection of
18:29women and to justify violence will
18:31always be there. So my message is right
18:35now there is an opportunity for reform.
18:37I have this printed out and I'm just
18:39waiting for that challenge that it's not
18:41in the Quran. You should go to a website
18:43called Islam a religion of peace and
18:46someone has documented 109 verses from
18:49the Quran and the hadith. So it's in the
18:53world we live the Quran is a small
18:56and everyone can see what it is.
18:57>> I'm only coming to you as the moderator
18:58on this question because I'm looking for
19:00clarity. But you could do the same thing
19:01with the Old Testament.
19:03>> Oh you can but the Christians have gone
19:05through that. The Christians have had
19:07their inquisitions and their crusades
19:08and the witch burnings and they are past
19:11that. So that violence is now an issue
19:14of the fringe. Islam is right in the
19:16middle of it and a true leadership. By
19:18the way, this topic for another time,
19:20but I would challenge the idea that in,
19:23you know, the New Testament things a
19:24different story, but the Old Testament,
19:28the things that may seem a little bit
19:30inflammatory or whatever, actually, once
19:32you understand them and the way they've
19:34also been interpreted through our oral
19:36law, which we've always had since Mount
19:38Si, that I I think they all become
19:42completely justifiable.
19:44um as evidenced by the fact that we
19:46don't see an example of from the Jewish
19:48side a crusade and inquisition or or
19:50jihadi or jihad or terrorism or that
19:53kind of stuff. Um but I think the big
19:55concern here is that there's just too
19:57much within the Quran that seems to lend
20:00itself to this kind of interpretation.
20:03Therefore, you want a reformation.
20:06How do you do that with so when there's
20:08so much subject material here?
20:09Ultimately, even if you want to have a
20:11whole new thing that says, "No, we don't
20:12interpret it that way." Anyone that just
20:15reads the text itself will see so much
20:17there that would encourage in their
20:20minds jihad.
20:21>> Compassionate leadership who love
20:22Muslims would be a leadership that would
20:25now modify, innovate, and and reform. So
20:28I have to say that ultimately um we
20:32can't get away from the fact that it is
20:34the uh Quran itself
20:37that is problematic
20:40and uh I in no way want to take away
20:43from the fact that Muslims have a there
20:47are many that just have a devout sense
20:48of wanting to be connected to God, lead
20:52a uh spiritual god-oriented life and
20:56that is absolutely commendable and
20:57that's Great. And there probably is a
20:59lot of overlap that we share as Jews
21:01with Muslims, but the Quran itself uh is
21:04a problem. And certainly from a Jewish
21:06perspective, in the end, it's going to
21:09have to go. Not connection to God, not
21:12connection to spirituality. And again,
21:14there's so much within the Quran that
21:16shares the narratives and stories of of
21:18of the Torah, but but but uh this uh you
21:24know, the the fact that there's quite a
21:26lot of textual distortion actually of
21:28what the Torah says in the Quran and
21:29also the inflammatory
21:31uh anti- non-Muslim stuff there uh and
21:35its political desires certainly to you
21:38know overtake um the uh the world
21:42politically.
21:43Um that is something that's uh going to
21:46be a major a major problem that
21:48ultimately uh is it means that that the
21:51Quran is a problem and it's going to
21:54have to be
21:56replaced
21:58with the Torah. That is the Jewish
22:01vision. Um and it's something that we
22:03believe is coming and it's going to be
22:04actually imminent. Um, but one thing
22:07that I want to get back to is that we
22:09saw on this panel discussion um too much
22:12of uh a desire to want to just
22:16uh labor under false illusions to
22:21convince themselves that no no we see
22:23this we see this problem and violence
22:24everything but no no it can't be because
22:26you know every religion gets interpreted
22:28this way and and you know it's only a
22:30tiny minority.
22:32It's so dangerous when we allow fancy
22:35arguments to cloud the actual problem.
22:40And the same thing has happened inside
22:42of Israel on another question. The whole
22:44issue of the Palestinian
22:47cause, thinking that we need to keep
22:49doing the whole two-state solution
22:51thing. We can't talk about any other way
22:54to resolve this conflict and say that
22:57the Palestinian thing is actually a lie.
22:59And actually I was trying to do some
23:01digging into where has this come from?
23:02Why are we so stuck? Why is Israel
23:04stuck,
23:06the world actually for that matter,
23:08stuck psychologically and politically in
23:10this trap where we can't get out of
23:13stating the bleeding obvious that the
23:14Palestinian cause is a lie and a cynical
23:17creation. And I think it all comes back
23:19to an agreement that was secretly
23:21negotiated and then signed in the 1990s.
23:24And so we made a documentary about this
23:27and it's about the Oslo Accords and how
23:31this laid the groundwork for the cage
23:33that Israel's been stuck in. But it also
23:35shows us how Israel can finally escape
23:38Oslo's trap. Have a watch the trailer
23:40for our new film that we've just
23:42launched on JTV Plus called The Oslo
23:44Trap. And if you want to watch it in
23:46full, just click on the link below in
23:47the video description. You've been
23:49watching this conflict for years now,
23:52maybe your whole life. The wars, the
23:54terror, the protests, the politics,
23:57and underneath all of it, a set of
23:59phrases that get repeated so often
24:02they've stopped meaning anything. And
24:03yet somehow they still shape everything.
24:06Two-state solution. Two solution.
24:09>> Occupation. Palestinian statethood. But
24:12if you want to understand where all of
24:14this comes from and why things seem so
24:16stuck, there is one moment you need to
24:19know about. One agreement signed 30
24:22years ago that created the world we're
24:24living in now. It's called the Oslo
24:26Accords.
24:29A peace agreement, or so the world was
24:31told,
24:33secretly negotiated,
24:36in the Norwegian city of Oslo, and
24:39signed on the White House lawn in 1993
24:42between the Israeli government and the
24:44Palestine Liberation Organization, the
24:46PLO, a Palestinian political movement
24:48that had spent decades waging a terror
24:50campaign against Israeli civilians. Most
24:53people have never heard of the Oslo
24:54Accords, or they've heard the name and
24:56moved on. But Oslo is the reason Israeli
24:59occupation dominates the news bulletins.
25:02It's why two-state solution is the only
25:04diplomatic language anyone speaks. It's
25:07why Israel left Gaza in 2005 and why
25:10that withdrawal handed Hamas the
25:12launchpad for October [music] 7th. It's
25:14why Israel, even after the largest
25:16massacre of Jewish people since the
25:17Holocaust, found itself in the dock at
25:20the International Court of Justice
25:22rather than unequivocally backed by the
25:24[music] world. Oslo didn't just fail as
25:26a peace process. Oslo built the
25:28framework, the moral, political, and
25:30military framework inside which Israel
25:32has been trapped ever since. And until
25:34you understand what it actually was and
25:36why it was [music] built, you cannot
25:38understand what is happening today. In
25:40this JTV Plus documentary, we're going
25:42to show you what Oslo was really
25:44designed to achieve. How it handed a
25:46terrorist organization the space to
25:48build the machine that carried out
25:50October 7th. how it trapped Israel in a
25:53moral framework it can't win inside and
25:56why the world is still reaching for
25:58Oslo's language today because Oslo
26:00didn't just shape the conflict, it
26:02shaped how the entire world thinks about
26:04it. This film is going to show you where
26:06it all began, why it still hasn't ended,
26:08and how Israel can finally escape Oslo's
26:10trap. To watch this JTV Plus documentary
26:14and access much more premium content,
26:16click on the link in the video
26:18description.

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