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💥 IS THIS THE WORST INTERROGATION EVER? Watch Suitcase Killer Sarah Boone Take Control — Transcript

by The Behavior Panel · 18,035 words · 2,872 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

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0:00Today, we're going to talk about the
0:01interrogation of Sarah Boone. Greg will
0:04tell us about the videos we're going to
0:05watch. We'll keep this pretty short. She
0:07was arrested in 2020 for this murder. I
0:11think she was charged with second-degree
0:12murder. This is the Orange County
0:14Sheriff's Department, and there are the
0:16same two investigators are talking to
0:17her. This is a day later than when they
0:20went to talk to her on site.
0:23So,
0:25to your recollection,
0:27no videos on Sunday. Not that I'm aware
0:30of. Okay. I mean, I like I get my point.
0:33Maybe it's like a picture of them the
0:34two of Tess and
0:36the dogs. And George and him them
0:39dancing, but I mean, or that it's just
0:42Tess. Mhm.
0:44Okay. Um so, I have something that I
0:47want to show you that we found. Um and
0:51it was from your phone. Mhm.
0:56Can you see it?
0:59Can you move it around? Go ahead.
1:03Sarah.
1:10No, I don't remember that. For
1:11everything you've done to me. Sarah.
1:14For everything you've done to me. Your
1:15battery's about to die. Should I go?
1:18I don't know.
1:19Okay.
1:21Let me.
1:30This battery doesn't last very long.
1:31Yeah, it used to last a lot longer than
1:33that. I don't know what happened. Okay.
1:35Let me just grab something.
1:36All right.
1:41I was just simply asking cuz
1:45you had a look on your face when she
1:47asked you if you've ever done that
1:48before. You looked kind of shocked and
1:50No.
1:51Okay. Why did you say it like that? Like
1:55I don't think you all understand who I
1:57am where
1:58Well, tell me. I mean, I've always been
2:01a straight-A student. I am an
2:03outstanding mother to my son. Okay. I
2:05excel at everything.
2:08I
2:10I would not do that.
2:12You wouldn't lock some zip somebody in a
2:14suitcase?
2:16Well, I didn't like completely lock it.
2:19I mean, I opened it with one finger. I
2:21left enough in there for him to get out.
2:23Okay.
2:25And I wasn't planning on going upstairs
2:27and going to sleep. Okay.
2:35All right, Greg, what do you got?
2:37Yeah, so what should have become an oh
2:39moment turns into a well moment. When
2:42you are an interrogator, everything is
2:44about control. Everything is about me
2:46being in charge of the entire
2:47environment. Not about going in with a
2:49dead battery and and actually the perp
2:52looking over and going, "Hey, your
2:53battery's dying." This is an opportunity
2:55to show a video that is very
2:57compromising, and what do they do? They
2:58come in and bumble that. That's not a
3:00good start to an interrogation. She's
3:02calm.
3:03I I don't know why she's as calm as she
3:06is, but maybe she was just plowed when
3:07this thing happened. But, there's no
3:09planning and prep here. She calmly
3:11points that out. Her breathing does
3:13increase, and you can see it because
3:14we're looking down on top of her. You
3:16see her breathing rate increase, and
3:18then she loses fluency. And Chase,
3:20you'll appreciate this. She says, "I
3:22mean." Just like the guy from Stephen
3:24McDaniel video, "I mean." So, she's lost
3:27fluency, and then she goes to a
3:29to a resume statement that is one of the
3:31dumbest I've ever heard. "I'm a
3:32straight-A student." This is a
3:3440-something-year-old woman
3:36who zips a guy up in a suitcase, and
3:38that's her defense. That's not a good
3:40defense. So, if I were interrogating
3:42her, I'd anchor her admission that she
3:44knew it wouldn't be good for him to stay
3:46in the suitcase that long
3:48and start from there. I would say,
3:50"Why'd you leave the hole number one?"
3:52And she'd say, "Well, I left the hole
3:53because he needed some air." Well, then
3:55why'd you go upstairs?
3:57Because she says, "I wouldn't have left
3:59him zipped up and gone upstairs." So,
4:02she's got some cognitive dissonance here
4:03just right by saying,
4:06"Look, I I left a hole because I knew it
4:07was dangerous. I wouldn't have gone
4:08upstairs if" So, right there you got the
4:11beginning of the whole problem. If
4:14If you're already convinced of her
4:15guilt, which you are when you use this
4:17process, this is a Reid style process
4:19ideally. But, this is a Reid style
4:21process. You start off convinced of
4:23guilt, and you're looking for a
4:24confession. This is not an intelligence
4:25interrogation. They should anchor what
4:28she starts off with by saying, "I left
4:30it open enough that he could get some
4:32air, and I didn't plan to go upstairs."
4:35Mark, what do you got?
4:36Yeah, so
4:38here's a universal in terms of how all
4:40of us behave, no matter who you are or
4:43who you think you are, is we are all
4:45trying to defy gravity in some way.
4:48We're all at most points in our life in
4:51some kind of battle against gravity, no
4:53matter what sex you are, where you were
4:56born, who
4:58nurtured you. We're all trying to work
5:00with gravity. And this particular
5:02situation, the sticks and rubber bands
5:04that are holding her body together are
5:07not working at their full capacity, and
5:09so
5:27we get this convex
5:30um abdomen, where gravity has taken hold
5:33of her shoulders, and it's pulling her
5:35down. Now, you could say it's an
5:37abdominal retreat, and maybe there's
5:39some nervousness there, and I think that
5:41would be true as well. But, as the
5:43shoulders are rolled forward, and she's
5:46so sunk into that chair, I think she's
5:48really feeling the pressure of this
5:51whole situation, and it's dragging her
5:54down. Uh if you want some interesting
5:56work on that um concave abdomen, uh
5:59Cuddy, uh who's well known in the body
6:01language world, did some interesting
6:03papers on that abdominal retreat in
6:06pubescent females. Very, very
6:08interesting how um
6:10how the uh the introduction of estrogen
6:13and body image will cause females to
6:16become concave there. Anyway, um
6:20I'm with you, Greg. Straight A's,
6:22outstanding mother, excel at everything.
6:25Well, that's just grandiose at this
6:27point. And so, Greg, I think you're
6:29right. She doesn't show a lot of
6:30nervousness in the way that we'd expect
6:33it. She seems quite calm. She's got kind
6:36of messing up clearly right from the
6:38get-go. I don't think it's a tactic of
6:40theirs to have a dodgy battery at all. I
6:43think it's an absolute
6:45mistake. Uh but yet, she is concave, and
6:48she's going for these grandiose images
6:51as well to prove herself. Not looking
6:54good from the get-go, even with some
6:57terrible mistakes going on from the
6:59interviewers.
7:00Uh Scott, what do you got on this one?
7:02All right. I'm not going to focus as
7:03much on her as I am on the
7:04interrogation. This is the worst
7:07interrogation I've ever seen in my life.
7:09It's not just it's not bungled and and
7:12nothing went wrong. The whole thing is
7:13this is not an interrogation. It's just
7:15some people fussing in a room. That's
7:17all it ends up being.
7:19After After she brings up the part about
7:21her boyfriend being in a suitcase,
7:23in walks that detective with a new cord
7:26with for the computer. After this guy's
7:28been talking the other detective has
7:29been asking her questions. And while
7:31she's answering his question, he gets up
7:34and walks over and starts to dick around
7:35with the wall plug while she's talking.
7:37While she's telling him the answer to
7:39the to the question he asked.
7:41And then when she finishes her answer,
7:43he says, "K." He gets up, doesn't look
7:45at her, and shuts the door.
7:48I I I it was I was dumbfounded by that.
7:51And you could say this is a technique.
7:52This this is some kind of It's not.
7:54There's no I've never seen this before.
7:56Never heard this. And you'll see it's
7:57not a technique because it it doesn't
7:59get any better than this.
8:01The body language of of disinterest and
8:03disrespect is incredible here that they
8:06have for for There's no rapport
8:08building. There's nothing. They They
8:10They I I don't think they know what
8:12they're doing. And we're going to see
8:13that as we go as we go through that.
8:15Maybe Maybe they're burned out, but
8:17their disinterest in it it just floored
8:20me. Chase, what do you got?
8:23Absolutely agree. While this isn't a
8:26great interrogation, the setup of this
8:28interrogation room is primo.
8:31It's great.
8:34There's no table between them.
8:37There's no one blocking sitting between
8:39the suspect and the door. This is the
8:41setup
8:42that we should have seen, you know, in
8:44lots of other videos.
8:45Those two rules of thumb should be in
8:47every interrogation room. We see it
8:50in this one. I just wish the
8:52interrogators were there, too. I, too,
8:54am a long-time victim of Panasonic
8:58Toughbook battery life.
9:01I can attest, uh they are awful.
9:05But, there's a lot of stuff there.
9:06You'll also notice that the door
9:08is not blocked. You know, there's a
9:10clear line to the door. That's a good
9:12important point that I've always heard
9:14in training, and I've seen it I've seen
9:16the results in real life. If the
9:18interrogators had the ability to spot
9:20behavior,
9:22they would know that one of her biggest
9:24objections to confession would be
9:26feeling like she isn't known or
9:28appreciated.
9:30And what do they do?
9:31She's not known. They don't even look at
9:33her.
9:34They don't build rapport with her. They
9:35don't do anything to make exactly what
9:38she needs. And not everyone needs to
9:40feel known and appreciated. Some people
9:42need different things, and we'll get
9:43into that uh in the next couple. That's
9:46all I got.
9:47Yeah, let me add one thing. I I taught
9:49interrogation. I've seen few that were
9:51this bad. Because at least my students
9:54listen to what the person is saying, and
9:56didn't say, "Whoa, hold on. Don't tell
9:58me that. I want to ask you something
9:59else."
10:00And George and have them dancing, but I
10:03mean, or that it's just Tess. Mhm.
10:06Okay.
10:08Um so, I have something that I want to
10:10show you that we found.
10:11Um
10:12and
10:14it was from your phone. Mhm.
10:19Can you see it?
10:22If you need to move it around, go ahead.
10:33No, I don't remember that. For
10:34everything you've done to me.
10:37For everything you've done to me. Your
10:38battery's about to die. Shutting down.
10:40Oh.
10:41Okay.
10:43Let me
10:52The battery doesn't last very long.
10:54Yeah, it used to last a lot longer than
10:55that. I don't know what happened.
10:57Okay.
10:58Let me just grab something.
10:59All right.
11:04I was just simply asking cuz
11:07um
11:07you had a a look on your face when she
11:09asked you if you've ever done that
11:11before. You look kind of shocked and No.
11:14Okay. Why did you say it like that? Like
11:18I don't think you all understand who I
11:20am, where
11:21Well, tell me. I mean, I've always been
11:23a straight A student. I am an
11:25outstanding mother to my son. I excel at
11:28everything.
11:31I
11:33I would not do that.
11:35You wouldn't lock some Is it somebody in
11:36a suitcase?
11:39Well, I didn't like completely lock it.
11:41I mean, I opened it with one finger. I
11:44left enough in there for him to get out.
11:46Okay.
11:48And I wasn't planning on going upstairs
11:50and going to sleep. Okay.
12:01No, it's just the way you said it.
12:02You guys are scaring me. Why?
12:06We just want you to watch this. It came
12:07from your phone. Don't you want to know
12:08what's on it? Yes, I do.
12:26Is it long? Because I don't know how
12:28much I can take. Mhm. No.
12:33I don't know how much I can take.
12:36I don't know how to find her.
12:46Do I have to watch this?
12:49I continuously throw up. I don't sleep.
12:51I don't want to see it if that's okay.
12:55Well, it's on your phone.
12:57And you can either explain it or we take
13:00it for what it is. Yeah. We're just
13:02trying to give you the opportunity to
13:03tell us what's going on.
13:05That's it.
13:09Is that long? 2 minutes. No. For
13:12everything you've done to me.
13:14For everything you've done to me.
13:24You. Your voice.
13:26Do you hear me?
13:28Sarah.
13:30It's my name. Don't wear it out.
13:35Sarah.
13:36I can't
13:37breathe in.
13:39Sarah.
13:40Yeah. That's what you doing. You choked
13:42me. Sarah.
13:48Sarah.
13:48I don't want to watch it, please.
13:52I'll go first on this one.
13:54Uh Chase, I'm going to have to I'm going
13:56to have to
13:57to go against you on the setup of the
13:59room.
14:00I I think that I think the person you're
14:02talking to needs something. They need
14:04something to lean on, just a little
14:05something, just that corner. I'd put
14:07that thing I'd get him so they're in the
14:08corner right there. I wouldn't sit right
14:11next to him. The thing that scared me
14:13half to death when he stood up and put
14:15his gun in her face or put his side over
14:18there, all she had to do was reach up
14:19there, grab that, and pop both of them
14:21and she's out. And then go down the hall
14:23if she knew how to work her way out of
14:24that. That That completely freaked me
14:27out when he when he did that.
14:29His gun's right there in her face. It'd
14:30just be really easy to get a hold of it.
14:32And I I really think people need a
14:35a thing to to protect themselves just a
14:37little bit so they can at least get some
14:38comfort in there as for themselves so
14:41you can help them relax cuz if not,
14:42they're going to be all they don't know
14:43where to put their hands. And look the
14:44way she's sitting. She's sitting all,
14:47you know, bunched up and and
14:48uncomfortable. And with their
14:50personalities, they're not going to be
14:51able to get her to loosen up a little
14:53bit.
14:55Just a but
14:56I I just I just I think it's just a
14:58mess. Before they can get the video
14:59ready, she starts telling them that she
15:01doesn't want to watch it. She gets sick.
15:03She has She hadn't been sleeping. They
15:05missed their window here for shock value
15:07for this thing
15:09completely. There's no way to say, "Oh,
15:11really? What's this? You said you didn't
15:12have a thing and let's let's watch
15:14this."
15:15They don't shut up the whole time.
15:17There's not a spot in this entire
15:19interrogation where they're where
15:20they're quiet more than 20 seconds, 15
15:2220 seconds tops. Where she says, "I
15:24don't know how much I can take."
15:27There's the There's the the door with
15:28the go in. Take what? What you know,
15:30what do you know about these What do you
15:32think about these this video? What Tell
15:34me And you just break it up and and give
15:36it to them so they can start talking.
15:38And then she's pretty still while she's
15:39watching the video. No emotion, no oh my
15:41god, no nothing. Especially if she
15:43hasn't seen it before and she's not
15:44aware of it. There's no surprise there.
15:47There's no shock there. There's no
15:48horror there. She just comes back in her
15:50chair and says, "I don't want to watch
15:52it, please." And they turn it off for
15:55her at that point. And then so far we've
15:58seen no structure to an interrogation.
16:01There's no There's There's There's
16:03doesn't seem to be a goal.
16:05The The woman detective talks and then
16:07the the guy detective talks and they're
16:09asking two different questions. And just
16:11as he finishes a question and and
16:14uh Sarah starts to answer, that woman
16:16start The The woman starts asking
16:17another question.
16:19Nobody's in control. Nobody No Nobody is
16:22leading. There's no teamwork here.
16:24There's no structure to what's going on.
16:27This thing is is headed right for the
16:29squatter. I mean, it's in the squatter.
16:31There's no I don't think there's a way
16:32to get it out.
16:34Mark, what do you got? Yeah. So, Scott,
16:36I think you missed out on the shock
16:38value of the shirt. That's where they're
16:40going for the shock value.
16:42Okay.
16:43That's That's where it is. That's where
16:45Clearly, you know, this might be your
16:47first rodeo on this, Scott. So, clearly
16:49you haven't seen this technique. Okay.
16:51Uh not yet. But, he's he's leaving with
16:54that shirt straight down to Bojangles
16:56nightclub. That is That is
16:59That is exactly where that shirt fits
17:02in. What is he wearing? What is he
17:05wearing? Number one. But, then he's got
17:07the badge there, which, you know,
17:09automatically just, you know, he's got
17:11the weapon, he's got the badge, he's got
17:14this audacious shirt. I mean, there's
17:17nothing comfortable about this
17:19situation. And look, we're we're not
17:21saying you have to make criminals
17:23comfortable, you know, but if you if you
17:25want them to open up to you, you have to
17:28give them some basic fundamental uh
17:31comfort levels. This isn't doing it. She
17:34goes straight into it. She's She takes
17:36that victim stance. You guys are scaring
17:39me. I don't know how much I can take.
17:42Uh I continuously throw up. I don't
17:45sleep. So, she's she's taking this
17:47opportunity of the stress of this
17:49situation to cast herself in the victim.
17:52She goes more concave. They're not
17:55picking up on any of this cuz they're
17:56dealing with their tech right now. And
17:59they haven't I mean, you know, that that
18:01release of the video should be built up
18:03to it. It seems I don't know how long
18:05they've been there,
18:06but in this tape it seems almost
18:08immediately. There you go. There's our
18:09ace card. Let's just throw it Oh, we
18:11just screwed it up. Oh, never mind. I
18:14mean, it's terrible. From the soundtrack
18:16in in the
18:19in the actual tape that they're showing
18:21and
18:22you can probably find that on the
18:24internet somewhere it's pretty grim. So,
18:27I don't suggest you should go and look
18:29at it. Uh but if you want to get a
18:31closer
18:32uh listen to that soundtrack,
18:35is she glib in that or is she drunk?
18:38What is it about her demeanor there that
18:41means she can be so kind of light around
18:44around what she's saying?
18:47Uh is it slurred? Has she Has she had
18:49more than
18:50um
18:51half a bottle or a bottle?
18:53Uh not sure or is there a glibness to
18:56it? Again, this is a question on my
18:58part. I don't have an answer to that.
19:00But But so far, man, that the fashion is
19:04is has done it for me. Uh Chase, what do
19:07you got on this one?
19:09Uh I don't want to hit too hard on the
19:11investigators because many, many times
19:14I'm sitting I'm standing in front of a
19:16room with one of those little
19:17microphones with 55 detectives, homicide
19:21detectives, and I do a show of hands at
19:23day one. Who's had interrogation
19:25training?
19:26Maybe
19:27four maybe four hands go up. Maybe.
19:31So, a lot of times
19:33it it would astonish most people how
19:36little interrogation training police
19:37departments invest in.
19:40So, here is some interrogation training
19:41for you based on this one clip.
19:44When you hear somebody's objections and
19:47initial requests in an interrogation
19:49room, objections and initial requests,
19:52or in almost any high stress situation,
19:55they are using behavioral patterns that
19:57work for them in the past. Greg says
19:59this all the time, the organism does
20:01what makes it successful. We carry a lot
20:04more from childhood into adulthood than
20:06we really realize. These patterns here
20:08are extremely revealing about her
20:10psychology and her behavioral patterns.
20:13Here's the question you should be asking
20:14yourself when you see anything even
20:16remotely similar to what you're seeing
20:18here.
20:19What is being used to escape a stressful
20:22situation?
20:24In Sara's case, she's using fear,
20:27not injecting it, but talking about
20:29being scared, you guys are scaring me,
20:31and she's using being overwhelmed. I
20:34don't know how much I can take. These
20:36two things alone got her out of trouble
20:39before, I guarantee it. And if you're
20:41the interrogator, you will now know that
20:44will be the way that you know, she used
20:47to be to get out of stuff in the
20:49extreme.
20:50And she's going to do it later. If you
20:52don't jump on them and use some training
20:54to stop those from the beginning, from
20:57the beginning of the interrogation, or
20:58to preempt some of those objections, cuz
21:00that's going to be the barrier to a
21:02confession. Greg, what do you got? Yeah,
21:05let's talk about interrogation for a
21:06minute. When we talk about
21:07interrogation, there are really two real
21:08schools of thought in today's world. One
21:10is Reid. The Reid technique goes from
21:13the supposition you've done all the work
21:14and you know the person's guilty and
21:16you're going after information. And you
21:18use things that we refer to as themes,
21:19or ways of letting a person out and feel
21:21okay about telling you that. In the
21:24Sharpian version, Hanns Scharff, the the
21:26brilliant Luftwaffe interrogator who
21:28used non-coercion on Americans, what he
21:30did was work your psyche. Work your
21:33psyche, make you feel better about
21:35talking, gain trust, get you to do
21:37whatever it took. Either one of these
21:39has a certain set of approaches.
21:41If you're going from Reid, you would
21:43give them rational outlets for why this
21:44happened at this point. That's the way
21:46you go. If you're going from Scharff,
21:48when she brought up those
21:49accomplishments in the last video, you'd
21:50say, "Tell me more about that. You must
21:52be pretty smart." You start working her
21:53ego. You're working her right back into
21:55the same place, so that when you go to
21:58say, "Look, be rational." And she's told
22:00you how brilliant brilliant she is, you
22:02put her at odds with herself. None of
22:04that's happening here.
22:05And Chase, I agree with you. Few people
22:07get good interrogation training. It's
22:09the reason we all have jobs. If you
22:11watch her when this whole thing starts,
22:13she's got a lip compression and internal
22:15dialogue.
22:16She does this. She's withholding
22:18something. We don't know what that is.
22:20Could be emotion, could be other
22:22information, but she's withholding
22:23something as this female detective sets
22:26that laptop up. And she goes to internal
22:28dialogue. She's thinking to herself
22:29something about what's going on. It
22:31could be, "Hey, what the hell are they
22:32doing?"
22:33And she does this when she says, "You're
22:36scaring me." Well, we associate this
22:38with real stress relief because you're
22:40massaging those muscles right in that
22:43forehead that show concern and grief and
22:45all those things, and they get knotted
22:46over time.
22:47I would say, when she starts working
22:49through there and working through this
22:51thing, the why question is the most
22:53powerful one you can ask. It always
22:54works. Children ask it for a reason.
22:56When she says, "You're scaring me." I'd
22:57say, "Why are we scaring you?" Why?
22:59Simple question. You get her started in
23:01the process of answering.
23:03And then she ask the question, "Is it
23:06long?" And Scott, when she says, "Is it
23:08long and I don't know how much I can
23:09take?" Hold on.
23:11I thought you didn't know this video.
23:13You tell me how long it is, and you tell
23:15me why you can't take it. That's what I
23:16want to know. That's all. Let's stop
23:18right there.
23:19She That's a source lead. I always tell
23:21you guys, when a person brings something
23:23up, they're willing to talk about it. If
23:25you bring it up, they may not be, but
23:27that is a missed opportunity. They don't
23:29pay attention to her, they're not
23:30listening to her, and they're looking to
23:32each other. They came in with a plan,
23:34and this is the number one problem with
23:36interrogators. If I go in a room full of
23:38people who think they're good
23:39interrogators, most of them will say,
23:41"I've always won arguments." That's not
23:43an interrogator, that's an arguer.
23:45That's our knucklehead from the walk of
23:46shame parade who has always won by
23:48barraging people with BS or some other
23:50way.
23:51Good interrogation is not that. I may
23:52look stupid just to win in in a good
23:55interrogation. It's all about getting
23:57what I need, either a confession or
23:58information, and going after it. So, the
24:00source leads are powerful. Okay, then
24:03this prop thing, know when to say when.
24:06Turn that damn thing off and turn and
24:07listen to what the source is saying,
24:09what the perpetrator's saying. She's
24:11moved from internal voice to emotional
24:12eye accessing at this point. Her torso,
24:15Mark, to your point, is caving in.
24:17She's shrinking into that chair. If you
24:19turn right now and talk to her, and you
24:22use the right approaches, the right
24:23themes, you're going to get this person
24:25to start bleeding information because
24:27she's on the verge of going emotional
24:28and going into a shell. That's what
24:30you're looking for, and that's the
24:32beginning of it. You don't have to watch
24:34this if you tell us what happened was is
24:36the answer you should say. You I agree.
24:38Just tell us what happened. We're just
24:39trying to get the bottom of it, and this
24:41is what we can see. And she's almost
24:43moving into that what we call a I'd call
24:46a clamshell exoskeleton, where her feet
24:48are crossed under a chair, and her voice
24:50is dropping, and her body is caving in.
24:53Guys, that's the and that chin is
24:55covering her throat. That's the
24:56beginning of pre-confession body
24:58language, and we know exactly how to get
25:00it to happen. What you don't do is go
25:02headlong at her and attack her. What you
25:04do is go,
25:05"Okay, tell us exactly what happened."
25:08Soften it, get there. And regardless of
25:11what space you have, I mean, you both
25:12have We all have opinions about space.
25:15It all has to be built around mission.
25:18What usually is a doctrinal
25:21change from this is you carry no weapon
25:24whatsoever in any interrogation room.
25:27I'll go back to my steer days when we
25:29had a guy named Rocky Gonzales who
25:31struck a guy and he came out flying out
25:34of the room. We went and found out what
25:35happened. He said, "I hit the guy and he
25:36turned into Bruce Lee." You never know
25:38who's in the room with you. You never
25:40know who's in the room with you. So, we
25:41don't wear any kind of gear that they
25:42can get their hands on or any kind of
25:44weapons. Bad doctrine, and this is a bad
25:47start to an interrogation regardless of
25:48what caused it. Just my
25:51Now, if you don't know who we are, we're
25:53the Behavior Panel. Now, I'm Scott
25:54Rouse. I created
25:57I created the only online true crime
26:00uh course with Greg Hartley. Mark, what
26:02Let's do we do that again.
26:05Just do your Don't don't do the script
26:06thing.
26:06from Star Wars. You can write that
26:08stuff, but you can't say it. All right.
26:11All right. Uh if you don't know who we
26:13are, we're the Behavior Panel. I'm Scott
26:14Rouse. I'm a body language expert and
26:16analyst. I created the I God, now my
26:19Just leave it and go over it, Scott. I'm
26:21trying to. I'm trying to.
26:24Ah, [ __ ] it. Go to the next one.
26:31No, it was just the way you said it.
26:32are scaring me. Why?
26:36We just want to know what's this. This
26:37came from your phone. Don't you want to
26:38know what's on it? Yes, sir.
26:56Is it long? Because I don't know how
26:57much I can take. Mhm. No.
27:03I don't know how much I can take.
27:06I don't know how long it's going to be.
27:15Do I have to watch this?
27:18I continuously throw up. I don't sleep.
27:20I don't want to see it if that's okay.
27:24Well, it's on your phone.
27:27And you can either explain it or we take
27:30it for what it is.
27:31Yeah. We're just trying to give you the
27:32opportunity to tell us what's going on.
27:34That's it.
27:39Is that long? 2 minutes. No, I'm just
27:41trying to hear you guys to me.
27:44For everything you've done to me.
27:53You. Your voice.
27:55Hear me?
27:58Sara.
28:00That's my name. Don't wear it out.
28:05Sara.
28:06I can't
28:07breathe.
28:08Sara, breathe.
28:10Yeah, that's when you doing it, choking
28:12me. Sara.
28:17Sara.
28:18I don't want to watch it, please.
28:22Okay.
28:24Sara. Last Last time we talked to you,
28:26you had said that
28:28you put him in the suitcase, he had two
28:29fingers hanging out, and you must have
28:31him over. Sara, breathe.
28:34I flipped him over, and that's where it
28:36was.
28:37There's two different videos and a still
28:40picture where, yeah, it shows you
28:41flipping him in different positions, and
28:43him saying that he can't breathe, and
28:46you saying It's upside down. So, in
28:49order for him to have gotten into it, it
28:51was flipped up. Right. It was flipped up
28:54normal. Like as if you're packing
28:56something. So, this is upside down.
28:58Guys, this is killing me right now. So,
29:00this image, it's upside down, and then
29:03this small video that occurred 11
29:07minutes later, it's flipped over
29:10the other way,
29:12closer to your dining room table. Okay.
29:14Now, he's obviously still in there. So,
29:17he didn't How did that How did it go
29:19from the back to the I flipped it.
29:21Okay.
29:23My plan was not to go upstairs and go to
29:25sleep.
29:28Well, that's what you did.
29:29Yeah. But not intentional, though.
29:31No, you told me you went upstairs
29:33because what? You were going to get him
29:35ready for bed. Stop here.
29:37Okay, but Where's here?
29:38Show me where you can see any fingers
29:41coming out cuz there's the end.
29:44It's And his head's right here. Mhm. So,
29:47going like this
29:48rather than going all the way up, it's
29:50like this.
29:53But why is he saying I can't breathe and
29:55why is he pushing on it as if he can't
29:57get out?
29:59And it doesn't show a hole.
30:00You There's no hole. There's no fingers.
30:02I don't see his fingers. There's no
30:03hole.
30:05I don't know what you want me to tell
30:06you. Like I don't know like what you
30:07want me to tell you. I'm just showing
30:09you I'm just telling you what we see and
30:11what we've heard from the other video.
30:14I understand.
30:15He's begging to let for you to let him
30:17out.
30:18You sound
30:20you're laughing in the beginning and
30:21then in the end it sounds kind of like a
30:23No. It's not malicious.
30:26Well, same.
30:28It's not malicious. Then what is that?
30:31What does you mean to you?
30:34Well, Like if you were to just if I were
30:35to just tell my partner
30:36does. Like
30:38I get called everything but a white
30:40woman. So, Okay. I
30:42My intention was not to leave him in
30:44there.
30:46Please understand that. My intention was
30:49not to leave him in there. But you went
30:52upstairs thinking that he could get
30:54himself out, but the video shows
30:57That's what I told you.
30:58see his his fingers and then he looks
31:00like he's
31:02And then 30 minutes later he didn't
31:03show. And he's telling you he's not
31:05breathing reasonably.
31:07Do you think he's joking? He You told me
31:09he was laughing and I We were before
31:11there's there's no laughing
31:13got in there?
31:15Wow, that's the
31:18Wow.
31:19All right, Greg, what do you got?
31:21Yeah, let me give you three poor choices
31:22of words. Number one, you're killing me.
31:26Look, you're in there for murder. You're
31:28killing me is a bad choice of words
31:29because it's a tether. I can quickly
31:31say, well, let's talk about you and
31:33this. So, there's an opportunity. My
31:35plan. Okay, you just said, look, this
31:38happened by accident. You didn't say
31:40accident, but if you're trying to get
31:42away with something and say it was an
31:43accident, my plan are bad choice of
31:45words. Now, whether she's conscious
31:46enough to realize that or not, that's
31:48why I say I don't think she's conscious
31:50of this. I think she doesn't realize
31:51what kind of trouble she's in and she's
31:53just feeding into this. She also
31:56finishes a thought when the woman brings
31:58up I think it was not malicious.
32:01Mhm, that sure puts you in a bad place.
32:04So, poor choice of words from the
32:05beginning and they don't use elicitation
32:07there. Well, what do you think killing
32:08is? They have a flawed plan because
32:10they're not listening. They're there to
32:12argue and not interrogate. If you're
32:13listening, it would change your path.
32:15Look, I
32:16I I hate beating these guys up because
32:18you're right, they don't get enough
32:19training. I will Mark have to add your
32:21comedy for just a minute and say, if
32:22you're Chris Noth, you have to wear
32:24Chris Noth clothes.
32:26And if you don't know Chris Noth is, go
32:27look at all the cop shows and he dresses
32:30all kinds of wild ways. This guy looks a
32:32lot like him and maybe that's why he's
32:33dressing the part. Um they're here to
32:36argue not interrogate. She leans into
32:37the evidence. I love it. She leans over
32:39to look at the evidence. And they don't
32:41lean on her then. She uses that my plan.
32:44That's a push pull word. Anytime you use
32:45something like my plan, I thought there
32:47was no plan. Then's when I go, why did
32:49you leave a hole? Why didn't you leave a
32:50hole?
32:51Because you needed air? Then why did you
32:53go upstairs?
32:55You can't have both of those. They're
32:56not congruent. So, you put her at odds
32:58with self and then you go back after it.
33:00It's not intentional. Not intentional.
33:02Sounds like a guilty person saying it
33:03was an accident. She's prayerful when
33:05she says, what do you want me to do? She
33:07does that little chipmunk thing again or
33:08hamster thing.
33:10And then she finishes the person's
33:11thoughts about malice. That doesn't
33:13sound good.
33:15These guys could have leaned in there
33:16and said, hold on, Sarah. I wasn't going
33:18to say malicious. Let's talk about that
33:19word. What does that mean to you?
33:21That's the way you get a person to start
33:23telling you something about what's going
33:24on.
33:26And then he does get it. He almost gets
33:28it. He goes in and he says something to
33:30her that causes her to say, like he does
33:32me when when he says, what does FU mean?
33:34Like he does me, but they miss it again.
33:37They push and disparage her instead of
33:39going after it. If this is Reed where's
33:41the narrative, if this is Sharp where's
33:42the approach. So, we got to have
33:44somewhere in there we start to figure
33:46this out. If you pay attention when this
33:49there's a really great indicator that I
33:51think Reed would be powerful. When this
33:54female detective starts to rationalize
33:56what happened, watch the body language
33:57of her open up. It's powerful. It tells
34:00you that she's susceptible. But then she
34:02goes right back to the argument and
34:03says, but the video shows and you see
34:05the body language shift. Really hard for
34:07me to watch. Scott, what do you got?
34:09I I think even with training, I think
34:11these two are burnt out or just don't
34:13want to be there. They're I would and
34:15we're going to see some examples later
34:16on that that that would prove my the my
34:19theory there.
34:21I I I don't think I don't think any kind
34:23of structure would help them. I think
34:24they need to get rid of them and start
34:25all over again. He's sitting back in his
34:28chair running his own game. He's doing
34:29something else. They're asking two
34:30different questions almost at the same
34:32time. And when she says, I don't know
34:34what you want me to tell you,
34:36he should have said one of them should
34:37have said, look,
34:38I want to tell I want to tell me why you
34:40did this. And just everybody hush.
34:43And then go on to Well, tell me what
34:45It's there's no questioning.
34:47There's no there's nobody in charge.
34:49There's no no Nobody's leading. It's
34:51just bouncing around the room.
34:53And then
34:54I think this the guy detective is the
34:56most uncomfortable interrogator I've
34:59ever seen in my life. He can't sit
35:00still, can't keep his fingers out of his
35:02nose. He can't he can't stop
35:05scooting around, squishing around. He it
35:07it just it looks like something's wrong.
35:08It looks like he's the guilty one.
35:10At when we're looking at from from this
35:12point of view. And she says, my plan is
35:15not to go upstairs and go to sleep. They
35:16say, but that's what you did.
35:20Come on, man.
35:22There's you know,
35:23a lot even on TV shows they know where
35:25to go after that. They
35:27every you know,
35:28but they don't. They're not even
35:29following their their TV show and and
35:31movie structure. There's no structure
35:33here whatsoever. Her body language is
35:35pretty much the same as it has been. Uh
35:38like you were saying, Greg, she's doing
35:39the same thing. She's got her her
35:40baseline, her basic setups that she does
35:42and uses to get rid of her her stress
35:44and and built up tension and the
35:47protective things every everything seems
35:49the same. But but this interrogation is
35:52not an interrogation. It's just a fuss.
35:55Chase, what do you got?
35:57Yeah. This I agree with you guys. This
36:00would have been a great opportunity
36:01because in this audio or in this video,
36:03there's a thing like it she says you you
36:06choked me.
36:08I would be on that and I would say,
36:10well, I know you don't want to listen to
36:12it and I'm I'm sorry. We don't have to
36:13do that right now. We're we're going to
36:15have to, but I wanted to ask you about
36:17one thing in there when it said he was
36:19choking you.
36:20And that happened to my sister.
36:24And it's disgusting. And I wanted to ask
36:27you if that is a true statement or you
36:29made that up.
36:31So, now we can get clarity there and now
36:34we're starting to project.
36:36And and which right after this
36:38rationalization, we've shown that it's
36:40she's susceptible to that. Boom,
36:42project. I'm going to leave the rest of
36:44it alone.
36:45This video it it if you watch this video
36:47again which you're going to right after
36:50I finish talking here, this is as if you
36:53interviewed Dwight Schrute from Dunder
36:55Mifflin. That's the character we're
36:58seeing across the table there.
37:01That's all I got.
37:03All right.
37:04I want to go.
37:06Yeah.
37:07Yeah, Mark, you can you can have a turn
37:09this time.
37:09Yeah, let me jump let me jump in. Uh
37:13Look. Uh look. Here here would be my
37:15structure, okay? Watch and listen. Watch
37:19and listen. Watch and listen and ask
37:22questions out of curiosity. And there's
37:24this moment right up the front where she
37:27retreats right back. It's a big movement
37:30from her her baseline of being subdued
37:32by gravity. She goes right back and she
37:34says, I don't want to watch it. Please.
37:37I don't want to watch it, please.
37:39Well, my question having seen that and
37:42heard what she said, my question out of
37:44curiosity would be
37:46What What most causes you want to not
37:49want to watch this?
37:50I mean, it's just a curious question.
37:52Maybe it'll get me somewhere. Maybe
37:54it'll get me nowhere, but it isn't
37:56arguing with her. And just as everybody
37:59else has said, they are just arguing
38:02with her. They're literally putting
38:03forward what they have as evidence. Good
38:06evidence. Yeah? And then she's
38:09responding and then they're arguing with
38:11her response.
38:13And so, everyone's getting frustrated as
38:16far as I can see. Everybody's getting
38:18frustrated. Um
38:20they talk over each other. They all talk
38:22over each other. She ends up standing up
38:26and helping out. At that point, I would
38:29go, she's in control now. It's like
38:32I'm almost on her side going, take it.
38:35Take this one. Why not? Why not take
38:38this one? Like you got this one now.
38:41He's there. He's
38:42exhaling. It's clear indicators of his
38:46his frustration or boredom or I think
38:49both upset with it. The the the the
38:53female interviewer is mirroring and
38:56escalating her tone. So, not only is it
38:59argumentative, but she's taking the same
39:02tone as the subject and then they're
39:04escalating each other. Uh and the male
39:07just continues to get kind of irritated
39:10and restless. And and just as you were
39:12saying right up the front, Scott, right
39:15here is my last note. I've got, who is
39:17in control here? Who's in control here?
39:20Like nobody's in control apart from the
39:23subject, I think, who is in the most
39:25control there, but but then kind of
39:27gives it up because I don't think she
39:29quite knows how to take control of this
39:31moment. I would.
39:33I
39:34I think I'd have said, well, I'll I'll
39:35be going now and
39:37you know, give me a call when you've
39:39sorted out your tech and stuff and you
39:41got your got your [ __ ] together.
39:43I'd have been out of there.
39:44Wow, Mark uses
39:46Mark cusses. Wow.
39:49Wow, that's a that's a first.
39:50bad. It's that bad.
39:52a half years and there it is. Wow,
39:54unbelievable. Unbelievable. All right,
39:57if you don't know who we are, we're the
39:58Behavior Panel and I'm Scott Rouse. I'm
40:00a body language expert and analyst and I
40:02train law enforcement and the military
40:03in interrogation and body language. I
40:05created the number one online body
40:06language course Body Language Tactics
40:08with Greg Hartley. Mark?
40:11I'm Mark Bowden. I'm an expert in human
40:12behavior and body language. I help
40:13people all over the world to stand out,
40:15win trust and gain credibility every
40:17time they communicate, including some of
40:18the leaders of the G7. Chase?
40:21I'm Chase Hughes. I did 20 years in the
40:23US military. Wrote the number one
40:24best-selling book on behavior profiling,
40:26persuasion and influence and I change
40:29people's lives teaching those things
40:30today. Greg?
40:32Greg Hartley, I'm a former Army
40:33interrogator, interrogation instructor,
40:35resistance to interrogation instructor.
40:37Written 10 books on body language and
40:38behavior and put together that number
40:40one body language course at
40:42bodylanguagetactics.com with Scott
40:44Rouse.
40:46Mark said [ __ ]
40:49Yeah, this is some of the worst I've
40:50ever seen. You know what I wonder? What
40:52I wonder, do they think this video is
40:54enough they don't need her to say
40:55anything?
40:57I thought about that too. I thought
40:59about that too and I thought maybe
41:00they're going for
41:01Maybe they're trying to go for the I did
41:04it on purpose thing, but they can't
41:06because they're
41:08they have a goal but they don't know how
41:09to get there. No, it's it's just a show.
41:12They're not There's not enough
41:14conspiracy between them. There's not
41:15enough They're not breathing together.
41:17They're
41:17not a partnership. They're they're all
41:19over the shop. I mean, if you and I went
41:21if any of us went, "Hey, let's go in but
41:24let's really mess this one up." We'd be
41:26doing it together. We'd be like,
41:28"Exactly. A great performance and like
41:31you're a bomb going to be the greatest
41:32ever, you know, failure of a computer."
41:35You know, that would cause a reaction.
41:37Like this is just a
41:39it's a [ __ ] show. Let's hope they just
41:41don't know what Look, I can tell they
41:43don't know what they're doing. It's that
41:44part's very clear because they don't
41:46know anything about the psychology part
41:48of it and the approach is no structure
41:49to the interrogation, no questioning.
41:55Last Last time we talked to you, you had
41:57said that
41:58you put him in the suitcase, he had two
42:00fingers hanging out and you left him
42:02him over.
42:04I flipped him over and that's where it
42:06was.
42:08There's two different videos and a still
42:10picture where yeah, it shows you
42:11flipping him in different positions and
42:14him saying that he can't breathe and you
42:16saying It's upside down. So, in order
42:20for him to have gotten into it, it was
42:22flipped up. Right. It was flipped up
42:24normal. Yeah. As if you're packing
42:26something. So, this is upside down.
42:28Guys, this is killing me right now. So,
42:30this image it's upside down and then
42:34this small video that occurred 11
42:37minutes later, it's flipped over
42:40the other way
42:42closer to your dining room table. Okay.
42:45Now, he's obviously still in there. So,
42:47he didn't How did that How did it go
42:49from the back to the front? I flipped
42:51it. Okay.
42:54My plan was not to go upstairs and go to
42:56sleep.
42:58Well, that's what you did. Yeah. But not
43:00intentional.
43:02No, you told me you went upstairs
43:04Because what? You were getting ready for
43:06bed. Stop here.
43:07Okay, but
43:09Show me where you can see any fingers
43:11coming out cuz there's the end.
43:14It's and his head's right here. Mhm. So,
43:17going like this,
43:19rather than going all the way up, it's
43:21like this.
43:23But why is he saying I can't breathe and
43:26why is he pushing on it as if he can't
43:28get out?
43:29And it doesn't show a hole.
43:31You There's no hole. There's no fingers.
43:32I don't see his fingers. There's no
43:34hole.
43:35I don't know what you want me to tell
43:36you. Like I don't know like what you
43:38want me to tell you. I'm just showing
43:40you I'm just telling you what we see and
43:42what we've heard from the other video.
43:44I understand. He's begging to let for
43:47you to let him out.
43:49You sound
43:50you're laughing in the beginning and
43:52then in the end it sounds kind of like a
43:54No, it's not malicious.
43:56I'll say
43:58It's not malicious. Then what is that?
44:01What is you mean to you?
44:05Well, like if you're just if I were just
44:06to tell my side of it.
44:07does. Like
44:09I get called everything but a white
44:10woman. So, Okay. I
44:13My intention was not to leave him in
44:15there.
44:17Please understand that. My intention was
44:19not to leave him in there. But you went
44:22upstairs thinking that he could get
44:24himself out, but the video shows
44:28That's what I told you.
44:30He'll be up here any minute.
44:32And then 30 minutes later, he didn't
44:34show. And he's telling me he's not
44:36breathing.
44:36joking?
44:37You told me he was
44:40laughing and We were, but the video
44:42there's there's no laughing.
44:46Both of us were. So, how long was he in
44:47there for? Like this video is at 11:12
44:50when it starts, so was he in there for
44:52like a long time prior to you recording
44:54this? No.
44:56No.
44:57So, it goes from funny to no longer
44:59funny. You're you're the only one
45:01laughing. But I didn't think that he
45:04was
45:05like
45:06panicky. Like I didn't I
45:08So, pushing up on a suitcase he's
45:10saying, "Sarah, Sarah, Sarah."
45:12I can't breathe.
45:13breathe.
45:15George has done that in the past before,
45:17too, where it's just like he thinks that
45:19he's woe is me kind of thing where it's
45:21like
45:21never been locked in a suitcase so
45:23that's why he couldn't get out. So, It's
45:25kind of I thought it was a boy
45:27crying wolf crying wolf kind of thing.
45:29Okay.
45:30But but
45:31nowhere in there is he laughing, is he
45:34joking? He is begging.
45:36And you're the only one laughing. Okay.
45:39And you're the only one saying
45:41derogatory
45:43comments. Like you're mad. No.
45:46Please don't I don't mean to sound
45:49negative and I don't know if I can say
45:51this, but
45:52like it's like you guys are kind of
45:53trying to like feed me. Like No, I'm
45:55just trying to show you a video that you
45:56no longer want to watch because you
45:58probably don't want to know the outcome
45:59of how and what you said. Well, I know
46:02what
46:04You know You know what's on that video
46:05now?
46:05No.
46:05You remember making that video? No. Why
46:08don't you remember making the video?
46:10Probably cuz we had been drinking. But
46:12you weren't drunk.
46:13No.
46:14Just because I went upstairs and
46:16Just because you're drunk doesn't mean
46:18that you times that you were not drunk.
46:20You said that you had your wits about
46:22you. You said he had his wits about you.
46:25Mhm. You said that
46:26you don't like not having your wits. In
46:28my experience, if somebody cannot
46:31remember doing something to the extent
46:33of making two videos and a video and
46:36taking a photo,
46:38they are intoxicated.
46:40Okay. I understand where you all are
46:42coming from. Well, we're just trying to
46:43make sense of it. We're trying to figure
46:44out We're trying to figure out
46:47Chase, what do you got?
46:49This precisely right here is where
46:51knowing behavior comes in handy. The
46:54interviewers are
46:56trying to do their best, I think, uh but
46:59I think they're making what I call the
47:00academic folly. They're treating
47:03everyone as if they all respond to the
47:06exact same thing.
47:07And the reason this is so different from
47:09other interrogations you've seen is that
47:11in many of the other videos, the
47:12interrogators needed confessions and
47:15admissions to both place the suspect at
47:18the scene to begin with and then to get
47:21them to admit some form of involvement.
47:23We have those two things known, so maybe
47:27they had some level of training and they
47:28thought that they could kind of skip
47:30forward
47:31in the process. I'm not sure what was
47:33going on.
47:34But every point of resistance you're
47:36seeing here, every single point could
47:38have been prevented by knowing just a
47:40tiny bit about behavior
47:42profile I put together in the previous
47:44video based on a 29-second clip of of
47:47her talking to a police officer. All of
47:49that could have been prevented by just
47:51knowing that one 29 seconds of time.
47:54Greg?
47:55Yeah, let me tell you this. I don't
47:57think you even need to be that smart to
47:58get this one, Chase. I think what has to
48:00happen is you just need to listen to
48:01what she's saying and she's feeding you
48:03exactly the story. She's spoon-feeding
48:07them the elements of getting her to talk
48:08because what she says out loud was,
48:10"They just don't use it. He's abusive."
48:13He's all the time up for fun things. He
48:15fakes neediness.
48:17It sounds like he got in there
48:18voluntarily then he he panicked or faked
48:20panic. And easily I'd say, "Did you feel
48:23powerful because he'd always been rough
48:25with you?" "Yeah, I did." And then you
48:28thought he would be able to escape
48:29because you left him a little gap.
48:30"Yep." And I would give her the point
48:32where she said, "I went upstairs I and
48:34then I went to bed and I didn't think
48:36about it." And I would then close the
48:37loop and come back and say, "If that's
48:39the case, why were you so concerned
48:41about going upstairs in the beginning?
48:43You said it wasn't part of your plan.
48:44You can't have it both ways. You didn't
48:45leave him an air gap and then go
48:47upstairs and that not be part of your
48:49plan. You've got an issue here." Now, I
48:50could force her into a corner where she
48:52has to come out swinging and give me
48:54something. I don't think she is smart
48:56enough to do that and I think you could
48:58put her at odds with herself. When she's
49:00assaulted with that you're the only one
49:02piece, I thought she's going to go back
49:04and say I need a lawyer cuz she started
49:06to back off pretty hard right there.
49:08She threw up both hands and said,
49:09"That's not how it went. I think you
49:11guys are trying to feed me."
49:15My God, if you've ever been in a place
49:17where a person's giving you the
49:19information you need to break her,
49:21but they don't.
49:23The guy steps on her and says, "No."
49:26He's got a plan and he's going to stick
49:27to that plan. In the army we have goes
49:29and no goes at stations, meaning you
49:32pass a station. You guys are a no go.
49:34This is a no go all day, every day.
49:37Mark, what do you got? Yeah. So, look,
49:40everybody's confounded. Everybody's
49:41irritated. Everybody's confused. Until
49:44the subject says,
49:47"I see where you're coming from." She's
49:50a better interviewer than they are.
49:52She's like, "I see where you're coming
49:54from. I get it. I get it." So, she's
49:57started to build the bridge towards
49:59them. But, what do they do? Well, he
50:01says, "Well, we're just trying to." And
50:04then continues. And they both pile on
50:06top of that. She accepts. She agrees. "I
50:10see where you're coming from. I get it.
50:11I get it. Well, we're just trying to."
50:13And then they pile on. Instead of what
50:14they could do at this point to become
50:16maybe a go, which would be to say,
50:19"Thank you.
50:21Thanks for that. I'm sorry we've had to
50:22argue about this. Let's start again.
50:25Start afresh. Clean slate. Take us
50:27through it. What happened from the
50:29start?"
50:30It'd be a great time to just reset. Now,
50:33she's in Now, she's trying to make
50:35agreement. I think she's trying to make
50:37agreement because it's chaos there and
50:40she's under stress and she needs to know
50:43somebody's in control. Somebody's
50:45calling this one. So, she's going to
50:47start calling it and creating the the
50:49concord and the agreement. Scott, what
50:52do you got on this one?
50:54The fact that this detective has has his
50:57phone out and is texting and returning
50:59emails is bananas. I've never seen that
51:02before never heard of that before. It's
51:05And the further this interrogation goes,
51:07the more it becomes like that meme where
51:09that those two women are sitting at a
51:10table and there's a cat on the other
51:12side and they're yelling at the cat.
51:14That's what that reminds That's what
51:15this starting to remind me of. It's
51:17There's There's no reason for this. This
51:19is I keep saying the same thing, but
51:21nobody's in charge. Nobody's in control
51:22here. She's answering the questions
51:25they're asking her.
51:26She's answering them. She's told them
51:28about 40 times, "This wasn't an
51:30accident." She's saying, "Yeah, I did
51:32it, but it wasn't an accident."
51:34And they're not doing anything about it.
51:36They're They're They
51:37It's Okay. Yeah. And it gets back to
51:39texting.
51:41Unbelievable. Unbelievable. I'll leave
51:43it there.
51:45Both of us were. So, how long was he in
51:46there for? Like, this video is at 11:12
51:49when it starts. So, was he in there for
51:51like a long time prior to you recording
51:53this?
51:55No.
51:56So, it goes from funny to no longer
51:58funny. And you're the only one laughing.
52:00But, I didn't think that he
52:03was
52:04like
52:05panicky. Like, I didn't I
52:07So, pushing up on a suitcase saying,
52:09"Sarah. Sarah. Sarah."
52:11I can't breathe. can't breathe.
52:14George has done that in the past before,
52:16too, where it's just like he thinks that
52:18he's woe is me kind of thing, where it's
52:20like I
52:20Well, he's never been locked in a
52:21suitcase that where he couldn't get out.
52:23So, It's kind of I thought it was the
52:25boy who
52:26cried wolf crying wolf kind of thing.
52:28Okay. And again, my plan
52:30but nowhere in there is he laughing and
52:33he's joking. He is begging.
52:35And you're the only one laughing. Okay.
52:38And you're the only one saying
52:40derogatory
52:42comments. Like, you're mad. No.
52:45Please don't I don't mean to sound
52:48negative and I don't know if I can say
52:50this, but
52:51like it's like you guys are kind of
52:52trying to like feed me. Like
52:54No, I'm just trying to show you a video
52:55that you no longer want to watch because
52:57you probably don't want to know the
52:58outcome of how and what you said. Well,
53:00I know what
53:03You know You know what's on that video
53:04now? You remember making that video? No.
53:07Why don't you remember making the video?
53:09Probably cuz we had been drinking. But,
53:11you weren't drunk.
53:12No.
53:13Just because I went upstairs and
53:15Just because you're drunk doesn't mean
53:17that you
53:18You said that you had your wits about
53:20you. You said he had his wits about
53:24Mhm. You said that
53:25you don't like not having your wits. In
53:27my experience, if somebody cannot
53:30remember doing something to the extent
53:32of making two videos and a video and
53:35taking a photo,
53:37they are intoxicated.
53:39Okay. I understand where you all are
53:41coming from. Well, we're just trying to
53:42make sense of it. We're trying to figure
53:43out what you're We're trying to figure
53:44out
53:46I understand where you all are coming
53:47from. Well, we're just trying to make
53:48sense of it. We're trying to figure out
53:50what you're We're trying to figure out
53:51this video.
53:52it to us. We're listening.
53:55I just did. Like, we were playing and
53:58then like I thought it was
54:02My plan was not to go upstairs and go to
54:05sleep. My plan was not to He'll be up
54:08here any minute.
54:09But, you willingly went upstairs and
54:11went to sleep. No one forced you to go
54:13upstairs and
54:14My plan wasn't also to leave him in the
54:16suitcase.
54:17So, why didn't you take him out? Because
54:19I went upstairs and then I fell asleep.
54:22But, why didn't you consciously think
54:25he's asking to come out. He can't
54:27breathe.
54:27do it intentionally.
54:28What do you think is going to happen if
54:30you leave somebody in a confined space
54:32like that?
54:33Well, I
54:35thought by not zipping it up all the
54:37way, it would be okay. My plan was not
54:40to leave him in the suitcase.
54:42plan?
54:44Waiting for him to come upstairs.
54:46And then when he didn't?
54:48I
54:49fell asleep. You said you were up there
54:5130 minutes. After 30 minutes, somebody
54:53not coming up,
54:55Knowing that you that the last time you
54:56saw him was in the suitcase, 30 minutes
54:58later, you're like, "Mm, maybe I should
55:01go check on him. Maybe I shouldn't." No.
55:05When you That didn't cross your mind?
55:06That's like an That's like an
55:07assumption. Like, that's what you all
55:09are thinking. Just We're asking. It's
55:11the whole
55:12us.
55:14It's
55:15the drinking.
55:19That's what it is.
55:21It's the drinking.
55:23I thought it was like
55:25I thought he was okay. Like, I didn't
55:28That You all
55:29you he's not. He's telling you, "Sarah,
55:31I can't breathe." He's saying your name
55:33and you're like, "That's my name. Don't
55:34wear it out."
55:35Guys,
55:37that's how we are with each other. Like,
55:40he has
55:42Nobody understands our relationship.
55:44This the whole suitcase thing
55:48never happened before. Would you leave
55:50someone else in a suitcase?
55:52All right. Mark, what do you got?
55:53Yeah. So, look, her strategy, I think,
55:57is that to put forward that it isn't
55:59premeditated in any way. Now, either
56:01that's because she understands something
56:03of the law and something of of of
56:07of what she could get convicted on and
56:10what the sentence would be
56:12or she just knows that that's a
56:15better idea
56:16to say that she's involved, obviously,
56:19but but but it's an accident and there
56:21is no forethought around it.
56:24Premeditated murder is is obviously as
56:26as pretty much as strong as you can get.
56:28Um so, but the the male is always
56:32showing disagreement. Pursed lips.
56:35Clear pursed lips as well to show
56:37disagreement. Closed and protective.
56:41This is not great body language. I mean,
56:43it could be a tactic, but I think by
56:46this point we know it's not. It's his
56:48demeanor. It's his demeanor within this.
56:50He's He's closed.
56:52Now, what's
56:54what's what's this turning into? Well,
56:57they're not They're never entering into
56:59her idea.
57:01You don't have to agree with the world
57:03that she's in, but you've got to accept
57:05that that's her world. And accept And
57:07And if you know she's lying, just accept
57:10that world for a bit to get in there
57:13with her.
57:14They're trying to undo that world from
57:16outside. They're trying to show evidence
57:19and go, "Well, whatever you're say
57:20you're saying doesn't fit with this
57:22outside idea." What I would suggest they
57:25should be doing is getting inside the
57:27world and dismantling it from within.
57:30From a sense of agreement, from a sense
57:32of accord, and just unpicking it from
57:34inside rather than outside. So, they're
57:37being judgmental. They make judgment
57:39calls. They're being moral with her.
57:42They're kind of going, "Well, you know,
57:43why why would you do that?" You know,
57:45"Well, that's not the right thing to
57:47do." Well, that's just judgment and and
57:49morals. And And also, they're attacking
57:52the norms of relationship. She puts a
57:54norm forward that says, "Hey, you know,
57:56it's kind of a thing you do is to stick
57:58somebody in a suitcase and kind of play
58:00around with that." Well, look, it may
58:02not be a norm for me or a norm for you,
58:04but you've got to get in acceptance of
58:06that norm to be able to unpick it from
58:08the outside. They're arguing the idea.
58:12It's going It's going nowhere good.
58:14Scott, what do you got on this one?
58:15All right. He says, "You explain it to
58:18us. We're listening." And then he looks
58:19down at his phone and doesn't pay
58:21attention to her anymore. And then she's
58:23still in protective mode like you were
58:24saying. She's She's got her arms really
58:25close to her body. All that. It's It's
58:28staying with her baseline of the of the
58:30behaviors we've seen at this point. And
58:33again, the guy detective looks like he's
58:35the one being questioned. He's sitting
58:36back in his chair. He's got his arms
58:38crossed. He's moving around. He looks
58:39nervous. He's touching his face.
58:41Everything else. He's adapting with his
58:43hands. Everything. He looks like he's
58:45the one in trouble. Then out of nowhere,
58:47she says, "Because when I went upstairs
58:49and then I fell asleep."
58:51His open-handed gesture comes out when
58:52hers does. Out of nowhere. And he says
58:55nothing.
58:56And he's just distracting at this point.
58:57He's just I I don't know what this guy's
58:59doing at this point. Then she says, "I
59:00didn't do it intentionally."
59:02Boom. There it is again.
59:04We're done. All you got to do is move
59:06move forward from that point and say,
59:08"Okay, well, shoot. Let's talk about
59:09that." Nobody does that. Nobody does
59:12that. Then he says,
59:14"So, what do you think's going to happen
59:15if you leave someone in a confined space
59:17like that?" He's not even listening. At
59:19that point, he's not listening. He's not
59:20even looking at her.
59:21And
59:22I don't think he has I don't think he
59:23knows what's going on. And I agree with
59:24you, Chase. A lot of detectives haven't
59:27had training, but
59:30this is this isn't good because somebody
59:32may go to prison that doesn't need to go
59:34to prison
59:35because these people will get it wrong
59:36they'll push him into it and won't
59:37realize they're seeing a false
59:39confession
59:40and then this this worries me this
59:42worries me they need to call somebody
59:44and and get some help down there in
59:45Florida quick
59:47Greg what do you got?
1:00:10Hey it's Dr. Phil here please subscribe
1:00:13to the behavior panel.
1:00:22Thanks.
1:00:25Got him
1:00:26you you wouldn't have gotten me but I
1:00:27covered it up when I was reading all
1:00:29this from the statute. Yeah yeah yeah
1:00:32yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah.
1:00:32Thanks.
1:00:33Okay here you go now see if I can go
1:00:35find it
1:00:36it'll take me a again a second now.
1:00:40All right
1:00:42got me this time.
1:00:43Yeah so there there really are just hold
1:00:46on you got to wait for me sorry. Yeah we
1:00:48got it got all the time in the world.
1:00:50All right.
1:00:51Go ahead.
1:00:52Okay so state courts have ruled that
1:00:55this is murder two a killing that was
1:00:58the result of ill will hatred spider
1:01:00evil intent
1:01:01an act of a person that a person of
1:01:03ordinary judgment would know is
1:01:05reasonably certain to kill or cause
1:01:07seriously body injury bodily injury or
1:01:09an act showing indifference to human
1:01:11life well sure feels like they're trying
1:01:12to force her to say I knew it would kill
1:01:14him and I made a mistake or whatever
1:01:17because intent is there then that's all
1:01:19they have to do maybe that's what
1:01:21they're after is an element they're
1:01:22trying to close a loop on but look
1:01:26the one thing I firmly disagree is when
1:01:28he says we're listening no you're not
1:01:29listening he gets right one thing he
1:01:32does one thing he mirrors her and it
1:01:34actually makes sense she goes what am I
1:01:36doing he's like huh you know that kind
1:01:39of thing he throws his hands out again
1:01:41they miss a great lead there's the word
1:01:43plan I would lean in and say Sarah what
1:01:45was your plan was this a way to show him
1:01:47how powerless you feel when he's in that
1:01:49suitcase and something went wrong. Give
1:01:51her the opportunity give her the out
1:01:52give her a rationalization instead it
1:01:55goes back to one more this argument and
1:01:57circular logic she now says her plan was
1:02:00to go upstairs and wait for him.
1:02:03Wait a minute if we go all the way back
1:02:05to what I told you in the very beginning
1:02:07and we say I didn't go upstairs
1:02:09intentionally I left an air gap because
1:02:12I knew he would it was not safe now
1:02:14you're telling me you went upstairs and
1:02:16that wasn't your plan you're going to
1:02:17wait for him now you just admitted to me
1:02:19that you know you put him in bodily harm
1:02:21and you caused
1:02:23element three of that law now you got
1:02:25him.
1:02:26But there's here's the now they allow
1:02:28her to have a chance she set up the
1:02:30alcohol day one that's her rescuer she's
1:02:33been saying I only had one bottle of
1:02:35alcohol between the two of us and now
1:02:37she's changing that she does
1:02:39helplessness and she looks at each of
1:02:41them with good intent she signals her
1:02:44regulators and she says I thought he was
1:02:46okay there's a lot of control there and
1:02:49they go back at her instead of listening
1:02:51and challenge her again.
1:02:53If you just would pay a little bit of
1:02:54attention you you would get somewhere
1:02:57instead this detective instead of saying
1:02:59what do you think would happen forgets
1:03:01everything the woman's saying and jumps
1:03:02right on her and says would you leave
1:03:03someone else in the suitcase altercation
1:03:05again I think what she's they're trying
1:03:07to do is push him to that third element
1:03:10but if you look at every one of these
1:03:11videos we've shown each of those is a
1:03:13standalone there's no sequitur between
1:03:15these pieces if you look at this one
1:03:18it's an argument the first one's an
1:03:19argument second one's an argument it's
1:03:20just there's no power to it that's all I
1:03:22got
1:03:23who did I forget?
1:03:25Chase. Chase Chase what do you got?
1:03:28Yeah I'll be quick here this assault on
1:03:30her character is what's causing this
1:03:32resistance and you already know that
1:03:35because of the behavior profile.
1:03:37So how would you have used that behavior
1:03:40profile I'm curious to know what you
1:03:42would have done at home let us know in
1:03:44the comments we'll take a look.
1:03:46So what could have been done here is to
1:03:48demonize or shift the blame to the
1:03:51victim this sounds horrible it sounds
1:03:54atrocious but it's extremely effective
1:03:56in getting guilty people to confess in
1:03:59many cases just like this one thousands
1:04:02of confessions were obtained guilt by
1:04:04guilty people by blaming the victim for
1:04:06the crime initially and this is called
1:04:08projection in many many cases. This is a
1:04:11common tactic that has proven to be
1:04:13extremely effective if they built a
1:04:15narrative focused on how she tried hard
1:04:18to take care of him he's been abusive
1:04:20and mean and violent etc.
1:04:22Then the interrogator shifts to
1:04:24socializing
1:04:25wherein they would start making it these
1:04:27are two her two things right so then
1:04:30they're going to start making it normal
1:04:31they'd say something like anybody would
1:04:33have done that it's totally
1:04:34understandable people are going to
1:04:36understand this and that's why I came in
1:04:38here to help you. This would be
1:04:39especially effective just based on her
1:04:42profile that we developed in 29 seconds.
1:04:45So this is a formula for this behavioral
1:04:47type where projection leads the way in
1:04:51the interrogation so in some
1:04:53interrogations you want to minimize then
1:04:55socialize and then rationalize
1:04:58this one you want to project the blame
1:05:00socialize the actions that the person
1:05:02took minimize the seriousness
1:05:04rationalize the motive for taking action
1:05:07and that would have probably cleaned the
1:05:08table even Scott was saying that she's
1:05:10pre-confession she's kind of just ready
1:05:12the whole time get that out there it
1:05:15looked like that would have been a short
1:05:17discussion like an
1:05:19sub 45 minute interrogation that's all I
1:05:22got.
1:05:22What did I say Greg when we were talking
1:05:24I said 45 minutes tops and you said he
1:05:27yeah. Yeah Yeah you said you said 45
1:05:30minutes tops and I just said look this
1:05:31is a fallen off a log easy win five
1:05:33minutes into it she's already starting
1:05:34to to breathe.
1:05:37Done. But if it's alter I agree with you
1:05:38Chase that's not in her personality you
1:05:40can't go headlong at her.
1:05:42Yeah.
1:05:44I understand where you all are coming
1:05:45from. Well we're just trying to make
1:05:46sense of it we're trying to figure out
1:05:48what happened.
1:05:49This video
1:05:50it to us we're listening.
1:05:53I
1:05:54sure did like we were playing and then
1:05:57like I thought it was
1:06:00My plan was not to go upstairs and go to
1:06:03sleep my plan was not to he'll be up
1:06:06here any minute.
1:06:07But you willingly went upstairs and went
1:06:09to sleep no one forced you to go
1:06:11upstairs and
1:06:12wasn't also to leave him in the
1:06:14suitcase.
1:06:15So why didn't you take him out? Because
1:06:17I went upstairs and then I fell asleep.
1:06:20But why didn't you consciously think
1:06:23he's asking to come out he
1:06:24I didn't do it intentionally.
1:06:26What do you think is going to happen if
1:06:28you leave somebody in a confined space
1:06:30like that?
1:06:31Well I thought by not zipping it up all
1:06:34the way it would be okay my plan was not
1:06:38to leave him in the suitcase.
1:06:42Waiting for him to come upstairs.
1:06:44And then when he didn't?
1:06:46I
1:06:47fell asleep. You said you were up there
1:06:4930 minutes after 30 minutes somebody not
1:06:51coming up
1:06:53Knowing that you that the last time you
1:06:55saw him was in the suitcase 30 minutes
1:06:56later you're like maybe I should go
1:07:00check on him maybe I shouldn't no.
1:07:03That didn't cross your mind because if
1:07:04you had done That's like an assumption
1:07:06like that's what you all are thinking
1:07:07just We're asking. It's the whole
1:07:12It's the drinking.
1:07:17That's what it is.
1:07:19It's the drinking.
1:07:21I thought it was like
1:07:23I thought he was okay like I didn't that
1:07:26He's telling you he's not he's telling
1:07:28you Sarah I can't breathe he said her
1:07:31name and you're like that's my name
1:07:32don't wear it out.
1:07:33Guys
1:07:35that's how we are with each other like
1:07:38he has
1:07:40Nobody understands our relationship this
1:07:43the whole suitcase thing
1:07:46never happened before. Would you leave
1:07:48someone else in the suitcase?
1:07:50Someone that knows nothing about this or
1:07:53hears just a little bit like oh they
1:07:55were playing around in a suitcase and
1:07:56then and then went to sleep.
1:07:59Exactly what happened.
1:08:01Did you let him out before I mean you
1:08:02put him in so why didn't you take him
1:08:03out?
1:08:04Because I was upstairs and I fell
1:08:06asleep.
1:08:07No before you went upstairs you like
1:08:09consciously had to walk upstairs do you
1:08:11I mean you obviously remember going to
1:08:12bed because you were able to give me a
1:08:13time frame on that and you specifically
1:08:16told me that that you went upstairs.
1:08:19My intention was not for this to happen.
1:08:23I am sick about it.
1:08:27I've never done anything like this
1:08:30before in the past I am sick.
1:08:34Especially with that I thought I
1:08:36couldn't sleep last night.
1:08:39I don't know
1:08:39Well here's the thing.
1:08:41You tell us the last night you you
1:08:43vividly remember this when you told us
1:08:45last night that
1:08:47he was laughing you were laughing you
1:08:48put him in the suitcase he has two
1:08:50fingers sticking out and you go to bed.
1:08:52Now we see something totally different
1:08:54and it actually shows you upset and
1:08:57again using uh
1:09:00derogatory terms to him when he's
1:09:02begging for his life to get out of that
1:09:04suitcase. So You say we're assuming
1:09:07we're not assuming we're telling you
1:09:08what's on there. So it just happened to
1:09:10be that whenever I was videotaping or
1:09:12doing whatever else it was had just
1:09:14happened to not have that in it. Okay.
1:09:17And you also in the video you can't see
1:09:19any holes there's nowhere in that where
1:09:22the zipper separates and you can see a
1:09:23hole if there's a hole he's pushing on
1:09:25it begging you to get out.
1:09:27We should probably see that
1:09:30that that hole that you're talking
1:09:31would have been able to get out.
1:09:33Alcohol
1:09:34Based on what you're telling us, he
1:09:35should have been able to get out. But
1:09:36the video
1:09:38shows him attempting to get out, begging
1:09:40to get out, and he can't. So, that's
1:09:42that's just what we're trying to figure
1:09:43out. I don't know if maybe you had too
1:09:45much to drink, you zipped it up all the
1:09:47way, and then, you know
1:09:48I did not zip it up all the way.
1:09:50Okay. Well,
1:09:52I did not zip it up all the way.
1:09:57This is horrific, okay?
1:09:59Horrific.
1:10:00It is terrible. Horrific.
1:10:03I don't think I'll ever be right because
1:10:06of this. Ever be right. Dealing with
1:10:09everything else that I have in my life,
1:10:11personally, and then this Okay.
1:10:14whom I loved.
1:10:18It was not intentional.
1:10:21I will put my hand on the Bible. It was
1:10:23not intentional.
1:10:25I would not do that to him, nor anyone
1:10:27else.
1:10:28But you did.
1:10:31Not intentional.
1:10:33You intentionally went up to bed. I
1:10:35didn't intentionally go to bed because
1:10:37I'm saying that okay, good, he's going
1:10:38to get out.
1:10:40How did you not intentionally go to bed?
1:10:42You said you went up to upstairs and got
1:10:44in the bed. That's intentionally going
1:10:45to bed. Waiting for him.
1:10:48And he doesn't come, but you don't go
1:10:49down to check on him.
1:10:50So, I happen to go to sleep. When I say
1:10:53go to sleep And what do you normally do
1:10:54when you go to bed?
1:10:55What do you normally do when you go to
1:10:56bed? What do you mean? What is a bed
1:10:58for?
1:11:00Going to sleep.
1:11:01Right.
1:11:02So, you go to bed to sleep. I'll be able
1:11:03to tell you that like I figured he'd get
1:11:05out.
1:11:06What? Okay.
1:11:09All right, Mark, what do you got? Yeah,
1:11:11so the female interviewer lint picking.
1:11:13I'm not not up here. I'm just
1:11:15demonstrating it up here so you can see
1:11:17it. She's doing it on her on her
1:11:18trousers, her pants.
1:11:20Um a a a clear show of disinterest,
1:11:25which is very similar, Scott, I think to
1:11:27the the guy's previous show of
1:11:29disinterest by being into his phone.
1:11:32Again, no good reason for that. No good
1:11:35reason for lint picking, even if you had
1:11:38stuff all over your pants.
1:11:40Don't touch it. It's not important. So,
1:11:43you know, I've even got like tactic
1:11:45that. I was bemused as to whether they,
1:11:48you know, had a conversation outside.
1:11:49Should we do the lint picking route?
1:11:51Yeah, I'll do the You do the phone
1:11:53thing. I'll do the lint picking, and
1:11:55she'll probably she'll she'll be done.
1:11:57She'll be done in in in 15
1:12:01minutes if we do that. I could I just
1:12:04can't work out why they're doing it. She
1:12:08goes to victim,
1:12:11you know, what with everything that I've
1:12:12had in my life. Then I pick up on that.
1:12:15Don't pick up on that. You know,
1:12:18be again, listen, watch, listen, watch,
1:12:21be curious. What do you mean by that?
1:12:23Would be a great question. Yeah? Simple
1:12:25question. What do you mean What do you
1:12:27mean by that? What exactly? What have
1:12:29you had in your life that's had the most
1:12:31impact? What are you talking about? You
1:12:33know, because then we, as Chase is
1:12:35saying, we could get into that stuff.
1:12:36Well, you know, he was beating me up and
1:12:39okay. We could socialize that and accept
1:12:42that and have have agreement with that.
1:12:44No, none of that going on. She goes for
1:12:46a hand on the Bible, which is always a
1:12:48great indicator that
1:12:50that no good is is is coming of it, and
1:12:53I loved him in uh in in past. Again,
1:12:56it's a day afterwards. You know, I would
1:12:59expect I love I love him.
1:13:02You know, even of the deceased, I love
1:13:04him. Yeah. Anyway, not good at all. Uh
1:13:07Greg, what do you think?
1:13:09Yeah, she's congruent in her messaging
1:13:11when she says she'd been drinking and
1:13:12went to sleep. She goes back Look, if
1:13:14you were paying attention, if you had a
1:13:16plan, and you were setting a trap, you
1:13:18go all the way back to that beginning
1:13:20argument. Well, it wasn't your plan to
1:13:22go upstairs. And why did that happen?
1:13:24Well, I went upstairs and I was waiting
1:13:26for him. We've seen a lot of anomalies,
1:13:27but we don't see any tie back to those
1:13:30interrogation steps. We see a lot of
1:13:32arguing right now. And for that reason,
1:13:34I think this woman sees it as an
1:13:36argument. I don't think she has any idea
1:13:37of how what kind of trouble she's in
1:13:39here because she's arguing openly like
1:13:41you would in school, like you would
1:13:42argue with your friends and try to win.
1:13:44You don't win with an interrogator who
1:13:46knows what they're doing because
1:13:48anything they do that lets you win is
1:13:50about the next step in setting it up. It
1:13:51isn't happening here. She doesn't think
1:13:53she's in that much trouble. Her open
1:13:55posture will tell you that. She's doing
1:13:57this. People close up when they think
1:13:59that they're in trouble.
1:14:00They let her talk a minute, and she
1:14:01starts to say alcohol and
1:14:04and then they step on her again. And
1:14:05when that happens, her body language
1:14:07goes to oppositional. She pushes back in
1:14:10the chair.
1:14:11Her hands and feet are folded. And then
1:14:13she does that thing about me and her
1:14:15face actually shows some disdain for the
1:14:18interviewer here. It's just powerful
1:14:20when you see that
1:14:21that powerful look in her face. And then
1:14:24she starts to try to tell you about her
1:14:27life. She's like, "Feel Please feel
1:14:29sorry for me and help me to confess and
1:14:32tell you how this goes." But we don't do
1:14:34that. We just go right back at it again.
1:14:36And there we go. We just At the end,
1:14:39she's telling you what she believes, and
1:14:40you're attacking her logic. Listen to If
1:14:42you want to believe that, go and listen
1:14:44to what she does. She's in a downward
1:14:47telling tone, and the the detective is
1:14:50in a upward lilting voice as she's
1:14:52asking for approval. Really not a good
1:14:54place to be this late in an
1:14:56interrogation. Chase, what do you got?
1:14:57Yeah, just kind of copy paste whatever I
1:14:59said on the last video. You got a a
1:15:02suspect that's desperate for acceptance,
1:15:04approval, and pity, and you're giving
1:15:06them the exact opposite of what they
1:15:08desire. It's a recipe for absolute uh
1:15:11and rapid failure. Mark?
1:15:14Uh I'm done. I'm in Oh, yeah. Scott,
1:15:16sorry. All right.
1:15:18All right, yeah, I agree with Chase.
1:15:19It's it's the same stuff you've seen
1:15:21before. There's there's no reason to
1:15:23keep doing this whatsoever. And what
1:15:25should have happened is somebody's
1:15:26monitoring this, they should have
1:15:28stepped in and said, "Come here a
1:15:29minute, man. Let me talk to you a
1:15:30minute." Either one of those and said,
1:15:32"Come here. Let's shut this down. This
1:15:33isn't This isn't working. You I don't
1:15:34know what you're doing. We're going to
1:15:35get in trouble for this." Yeah, this
1:15:37this isn't working. You're just It's
1:15:38just three people in a room fussing.
1:15:40That's all it is. I'll end mine there.
1:15:43Mhm.
1:15:45If someone that knows nothing about this
1:15:48or hears just a little bit like, "Oh,
1:15:50they were playing around in a suitcase
1:15:51and then
1:15:52and then went to sleep."
1:15:54That's what happened.
1:15:56But you let him out before I mean, you
1:15:57put him in. So, why didn't you take him
1:15:58out?
1:15:59Because I was upstairs and I fell
1:16:01asleep.
1:16:02No, before you went upstairs. You like
1:16:04consciously had to walk upstairs. Do you
1:16:06I mean, you obviously remember going to
1:16:07bed because you were able to give me a
1:16:08time frame on that. And you specifically
1:16:11told me that that you were upstairs.
1:16:14My intention was not for this to happen.
1:16:18I am sick about it.
1:16:22I've never done anything like this
1:16:25before in the past. I am sick.
1:16:29Especially with that. I thought I
1:16:31couldn't sleep last night.
1:16:34I don't know
1:16:34Well, here's the thing.
1:16:36You tell us the last night you you
1:16:38vividly remember this when you told us
1:16:40last night that
1:16:42he was laughing, you were laughing, you
1:16:43put him in the suitcase, he has two
1:16:45fingers sticking out, and you go to bed.
1:16:47Now we see something totally different,
1:16:49and it actually shows you upset and
1:16:52again using uh
1:16:55derogatory terms to him when he's
1:16:56begging for his life to get out of that
1:16:59suitcase. So,
1:17:00So, what you're saying is we're
1:17:01assuming. We're not assuming. We're
1:17:03telling you what we're told.
1:17:04So, it just happened to be that whenever
1:17:06I was videotaping or doing whatever else
1:17:08it was had just happened to not have
1:17:09that in it. Okay.
1:17:12And you also in the video, you can't see
1:17:14any holes. There's nowhere in that where
1:17:17the zipper separates and you can see a
1:17:18hole. If there's a hole, he's pushing on
1:17:20it, begging you to get out. We should
1:17:23probably see that
1:17:25that that hole that you're talking
1:17:26about.
1:17:28Alcohol
1:17:29Based on what you're telling us, he
1:17:30should have been able to get out. But
1:17:31the video
1:17:33shows him attempting to get out, begging
1:17:35to get out, and he can't. So, that's
1:17:37that's just what we're trying to figure
1:17:38out. I don't know if maybe you had too
1:17:40much to drink, you zipped it up all the
1:17:42way, and then, you know
1:17:43I did not zip it up all the way.
1:17:45Okay. Well,
1:17:47I did not zip it up all the way.
1:17:52This is horrific, okay?
1:17:54Horrific.
1:17:55It is terrible. Horrific.
1:17:58I don't think I'll ever be right because
1:18:01of this. Ever be right. Dealing with
1:18:04everything else that I have in my life,
1:18:06personally,
1:18:07and then this Okay.
1:18:09whom I loved.
1:18:13It was not intentional.
1:18:16I will put my hand on the Bible. It was
1:18:18not intentional.
1:18:20I would not do that to him, nor anyone
1:18:22else.
1:18:23But you did.
1:18:26Not intentional. You intentionally went
1:18:29up to bed. I didn't intentionally go to
1:18:32bed because I'm saying that okay, good,
1:18:33he's going to get out.
1:18:35How did you not intentionally go to bed?
1:18:37You said you went up to upstairs and got
1:18:39in the bed. That's intentionally going
1:18:40to bed. Waiting for him.
1:18:43And he doesn't come, but you don't go
1:18:44down to check on him.
1:18:45So, I happen to go to sleep. When I say
1:18:48go to sleep And what do you normally do
1:18:49when you go to bed?
1:18:50What do you normally do when you go to
1:18:51bed? What do you mean? What is a bed
1:18:53for?
1:18:55Going to sleep.
1:18:56Right.
1:18:56So, you go to bed to sleep. I'll be able
1:18:58to tell you that like I figured he'd get
1:19:00out.
1:19:00What? Okay.
1:19:04Is that what you all are trying to do?
1:19:07To portray me as
1:19:08to do anything. I'm simply asking you to
1:19:11explain to me
1:19:12what happened.
1:19:14Everything was fine and dandy.
1:19:18I don't know what you mean by fine and
1:19:20dandy.
1:19:20What's fine and dandy?
1:19:22You all know Okay, for for me to tell
1:19:25you this, again,
1:19:28mind you, I've been without him for a
1:19:29day now.
1:19:30Mhm.
1:19:34I don't
1:19:36know
1:19:39I I I mean, I don't know what you all
1:19:42want me to tell you because this was
1:19:44not, in any way, shape, or form, hand on
1:19:47the Bible, intentional. Okay.
1:19:50So, you just left him there
1:19:51mean to kill him. You left him there to
1:19:52teach him a lesson?
1:19:54I didn't mean to leave him there. That's
1:19:56what I'm trying to tell you. You got up
1:19:59and walked away. How is that not
1:20:00intentionally leaving him there?
1:20:01Because I'm looking at the hole, knowing
1:20:03that it's it's there.
1:20:06He'll get out, no problem.
1:20:07And then he doesn't, but you don't go
1:20:09check on him.
1:20:12You say you're up for 30 minutes and he
1:20:13doesn't come up. You don't go down and
1:20:15check on him?
1:20:17I'm in the bed. You even moved
1:20:20You moved You admit to moving the
1:20:22suitcase like over. You rolled it. You
1:20:25rolled it over like it's not like
1:20:27want him to be like that.
1:20:30Don't
1:20:31You didn't want him to be upside down.
1:20:32How did he even get upside down? I
1:20:39You guys are killing me right now.
1:20:41I just want you to hear
1:20:44That's how he talks to me most of the
1:20:45time.
1:20:53I don't know how I don't know how
1:20:57you say it.
1:20:58I'm just trying to figure out what you
1:21:00would expect to happen to somebody when
1:21:02you leave them in a suitcase. I didn't
1:21:04mean to leave him in there.
1:21:06Okay.
1:21:07Seriously, what one was that? 12?
1:21:1013. 13, okay.
1:21:13Okay.
1:21:14Chase, what do you got?
1:21:16In this video, you can see every single
1:21:18stress marker that we spent all this
1:21:20time identifying and showing you here
1:21:22appearing at the precise moments of
1:21:25having her character attacked. At the
1:21:27precise moments. And just 10 minutes of
1:21:30training
1:21:31and any
1:21:32even a even a crappy body language
1:21:35course would have showed them these
1:21:36little stress markers. So, these
1:21:38interviewers are doing the best they
1:21:40can, probably with the training that
1:21:42they have, maybe. And most departments
1:21:45do not invest in interrogation training
1:21:48very well.
1:21:50Uh Sarah is driven by how she's
1:21:51perceived by other people and that's
1:21:53what's being attacked. I'm not
1:21:55suggesting the detectives here should
1:21:57have known that, but it's definitely
1:21:59visible to you now. And there's a
1:22:02What I teach, there's six essential ways
1:22:04people are driven.
1:22:05We have significance, acceptance,
1:22:07approval, intelligence, pity, and power.
1:22:10And those are the six things that that
1:22:12person desires from other human beings.
1:22:14This is how they need to feel and what
1:22:16they need to get confirmation of in
1:22:18other people from other people.
1:22:20So, Sarah is acceptance and pity right
1:22:23now, but keep in mind they don't know
1:22:25this. So, this is such a crystal clear
1:22:28warning to everyone watching this to pay
1:22:31attention to behavior and communicate
1:22:33with some precision and not treat people
1:22:36as if they're all the same little
1:22:38molecules like a science experiment,
1:22:41like an academic study would treat human
1:22:43beings.
1:22:44Uh Greg, what do you got?
1:22:46Yeah, if we go back and look at what she
1:22:47said way back when, I was a straight A
1:22:49student. Now, we're talking 30 years
1:22:51later, 25 years later. That tells you a
1:22:53lot about something about this person.
1:22:55She said, "Look, I used to be somebody.
1:22:58I've always excelled at everything I've
1:23:00done. I'm a great mother." To your
1:23:01point, Chase, she's screaming out,
1:23:04"Look, I'm this respectable person who
1:23:06did something stupid." If you can hear
1:23:08that and you can say, "Hey, everybody
1:23:10makes mistakes." Now, you've got a
1:23:12different approach. Here's what's really
1:23:13interesting. Look at these big
1:23:14illustrators. She's wiping things away.
1:23:17Everything was
1:23:18this and everything was that. They don't
1:23:20even notice that. They don't hear when
1:23:21she says fine and dandy, they attack the
1:23:22fine and dandy. She's giving them
1:23:26If if we skip everything else in this
1:23:27video and she goes, "Everything was fine
1:23:29and dandy.
1:23:30I didn't mean to."
1:23:34The rest of the interrogation that you
1:23:35made
1:23:36just shut up and go and say, "What do
1:23:39you mean you didn't mean to?"
1:23:42That's the interrogation right there
1:23:44because that's what you're after is her
1:23:46saying, "I did something stupid that a
1:23:47normal human being should know will kill
1:23:50or injure somebody." That's the element
1:23:52of law you're trying to get and she just
1:23:54told you, "I did something stupid. I
1:23:56didn't mean to kill the guy."
1:23:58Scott, what do you got?
1:24:00Yeah, the he says, "I'm simply trying
1:24:03I'm
1:24:03simply asking you to explain what
1:24:05happened." Explain to me what happened
1:24:08and she's done that about 40 times. She
1:24:10keeps saying she's not going to say
1:24:11anything other than that because that's
1:24:13what happened. She keeps telling him
1:24:15what happened over and over and over,
1:24:16but he was on his phone
1:24:18when she was saying all that. And now
1:24:20he's just badgering her.
1:24:22So, and like you were saying, you got
1:24:23those spread out arms and then the
1:24:26the the woman detective, her phone
1:24:28dings.
1:24:29She's getting texts in there and
1:24:30returning them during this. I I've never
1:24:33seen anything like this for my life. I
1:24:34hope I never get in trouble in Orlando
1:24:36or wherever this is because they'll say
1:24:38that's it. That they'll be like, "That's
1:24:40one of those guys from that
1:24:42um
1:24:43behavior panel thing and you'll never
1:24:44see me again." If I ever go to Florida
1:24:46and you all never hear from me again,
1:24:49I love you guys. I'll be searching the
1:24:50Everglades for you.
1:24:52Yeah, yeah, it won't be you should be
1:24:53doing that.
1:24:56Is that what you all are trying to do,
1:24:58to portray me as?
1:24:59trying to do anything. I'm simply asking
1:25:01you to explain to me
1:25:03what happened.
1:25:06Everything was fine and dandy.
1:25:09I don't know what
1:25:10was fine and dandy. What's fine and
1:25:12dandy?
1:25:13You all know
1:25:14Okay, for for me to tell you this,
1:25:17again,
1:25:19mind you, I've been without him for a
1:25:20day now. Mhm.
1:25:25I don't
1:25:28know
1:25:30I I I mean, I don't know what you all
1:25:33want me to tell you because this was
1:25:35not, in any way, shape, or form, hand on
1:25:38the Bible, intentional. Okay.
1:25:41So, you just left him there
1:25:42mean to kill him. You left him there to
1:25:44teach him a lesson?
1:25:45I didn't mean to leave him there. That's
1:25:48what I'm trying to tell you. You got up
1:25:50and walked away. How is that not
1:25:51intentionally leaving him there? Because
1:25:53I'm looking at the hole, knowing that
1:25:55it's it's there.
1:25:57He'll get out, no problem.
1:25:59Because you all And then he doesn't, but
1:26:00you don't go check on him.
1:26:03You say you're up for 30 minutes and he
1:26:05doesn't come up. You don't go down and
1:26:06check on him?
1:26:08I'm in the bed. You even moved
1:26:11You moved You admit to moving the
1:26:14suitcase like over. You rolled it. You
1:26:16rolled it over like it's not like
1:26:18want him to be like that.
1:26:21Don't
1:26:22You didn't want him to be upside down.
1:26:23How did he even get upside down? I
1:26:30You guys are killing me right now.
1:26:32I just want you to hear
1:26:35That's how he talks to me most of the
1:26:36time.
1:26:44I don't know how I don't know how
1:26:47you want me to say it.
1:26:50I'm just trying to figure out what you
1:26:51would expect to happen to somebody when
1:26:53you leave them in a suitcase. I didn't
1:26:55mean to leave him in there.
1:26:57Okay.
1:26:59Okay. What's your reasoning for um
1:27:02not calling 911 sooner?
1:27:04Because I didn't know what to do and how
1:27:05horrific it was.
1:27:08I called Brian and like what, 5 minutes
1:27:10later I called you guys?
1:27:12Not even 5 minutes. Nonetheless that I
1:27:14had to like try to I was trying to do
1:27:16CPR.
1:27:18I was trying to do CPR. I had to get him
1:27:20out
1:27:22and try to do CPR
1:27:24and then called you guys.
1:27:27And then was continually doing CPR with
1:27:30the dispatch on the phone
1:27:32where he had me count out loud to help
1:27:35me focus on what I was doing.
1:27:43It just
1:27:46I don't know how
1:27:49I mean, you
1:27:50You can sit here all day long and say,
1:27:52"I thought he was going to get himself
1:27:53out." But that's
1:27:55he didn't and you went upstairs
1:27:59and you stayed there for 30 minutes
1:28:01before you fell asleep. How But can I
1:28:04say to you like
1:28:05not to ever, at any point during that 30
1:28:07minutes, walk back down and check on
1:28:09him. No, wait 1 second because I know
1:28:12like with you all and then like but you
1:28:14continually ask me like time frames,
1:28:17time frames, time frames. Where I told
1:28:18you like I don't bother even looking at
1:28:20a clock most of the time. So, it's like
1:28:22an estimate. So, I For all I know, it
1:28:24was
1:28:25Maybe it was 10 minutes. Okay.
1:28:28But the point is you left the living
1:28:30room where he was begging for help and
1:28:33went upstairs. Regardless of how long
1:28:36you were there, you were left. You said
1:28:37I didn't
1:28:38I thought he was about to cry wolf.
1:28:40Again. Okay.
1:28:42So, when he asked to be let out, like
1:28:45what's your reasoning for not letting
1:28:46him out? When I was upstairs? No, when
1:28:49he's asking on the video, he asked
1:28:51multiple times. He asked to be let out,
1:28:53"I can't breathe." What like why didn't
1:28:54you let him out?
1:28:57Well, number one, I
1:28:59number one, I had no idea it was going
1:29:00to end like that. Okay. Number one.
1:29:03Okay.
1:29:04Uh number two, just
1:29:06You know what?
1:29:08I'll give you 5 minutes or so in there.
1:29:10That's That'll give you 5 minutes or so.
1:29:125 minutes for what?
1:29:15Well, based on the video, one video is
1:29:18at 11:12 and the next one's 11:23. So,
1:29:21you actually gave him at least 11
1:29:22minutes per video recording.
1:29:25So, my my thing is when it stopped
1:29:27he asked multiple times. I mean, why?
1:29:29Why did you not let him out? It's just a
1:29:31simple question.
1:29:32To be honest with you, I I mean
1:29:36Were you punishing him?
1:29:38No.
1:29:39Just
1:29:40Well, that's what you're saying in the
1:29:41video.
1:29:42I'm This is what you got. This is what
1:29:45you make me feel like. See, and then
1:29:47it's all backfired on me. Like it's all
1:29:49backfired on me. And I understand the
1:29:51severity of this. I just
1:29:53No, you don't. It's awful. I know.
1:29:55Okay.
1:29:57It's awful.
1:30:01And I will tell you both this right now,
1:30:02too. I will never drink alcohol again.
1:30:05Okay. Like I will never drink alcohol
1:30:07again. I don't care what it is in any
1:30:09way, shape, or form.
1:30:12All right, Chase, what do you got?
1:30:14I'm just going to throw out one thing in
1:30:15here that I don't think y'all will cover
1:30:18or I hope.
1:30:20One thing that I've seen many times with
1:30:23guilty people who think they're about to
1:30:25get off the hook or think there's a
1:30:26chance
1:30:27is something that I call
1:30:28self-administered punishment.
1:30:31And innocent people
1:30:33don't feel that they need to tell you
1:30:35that they will self-administer some kind
1:30:37of punishment and that they've learned a
1:30:38lesson.
1:30:40And you see that here. I'm never going
1:30:42to do I'm never going to drink alcohol
1:30:44again for the rest of my life. And then
1:30:45the detective, you know, in the back of
1:30:47her mind, this is not a conscious
1:30:49process. In the back of her mind, she's
1:30:50going, "Well, if she knows that I've
1:30:52kind of learned a lesson from this
1:30:55I'll just head home after this is over
1:30:57with." And another brilliant, brilliant
1:31:00interrogation technique to get a
1:31:02confession is to walk in there with a
1:31:04paper
1:31:05and say, "All I need you to do is
1:31:07handwrite a statement that says you
1:31:08understand that this was bad and you
1:31:11promise that you won't do it again."
1:31:13And the person believes that that might
1:31:16get me out of there, but all it does is
1:31:17get you a step closer to the confession
1:31:19in many cases. And that's a case-by-case
1:31:21basis. That's all I got for that one.
1:31:23Mark, what do you got?
1:31:24Yeah, you got there first again, I'm
1:31:26afraid, Chase.
1:31:28I will never drink again.
1:31:30And then it says there, sorry,
1:31:33punishment.
1:31:34Yep. So, yeah, I I totally agree. I
1:31:37totally agree. It's it it she's she's
1:31:39punishing she's displaying that she's
1:31:42already punished herself. I'm never
1:31:43going to drink again. We can all go to
1:31:45home now, you know, done and dusted.
1:31:48Um and she does that after it's all
1:31:50backfired on me. Now, again, like watch
1:31:53and listen, watch and listen, and just
1:31:55get curious. It's all backfired on me.
1:31:58How did it How did that start? How did
1:32:00it start backfiring? Take us through
1:32:03that. If If that's your idea that it's
1:32:05backfired on you, take us through that
1:32:07little element of it because there's
1:32:10that that's a great metaphor. It's a
1:32:12great idea that she's put forward there.
1:32:15They're just not listening to the ideas
1:32:17and investigating them.
1:32:19Um now, body language wise, she's now
1:32:21really locked herself down in part of
1:32:23this, hands on knees. She's She's locked
1:32:27down. So, I think she she believes
1:32:30something is coming. I think she
1:32:32believes the end is near, but they're
1:32:34not going to take her there, but she's
1:32:37she thinks
1:32:39she's a little less optimistic than I
1:32:41think we are around how good this
1:32:43interrogation is. Greg, what do you got
1:32:45on that? Yeah, I'm going to skip all the
1:32:47body language except for one little
1:32:49piece, but she confesses right here to
1:32:52what they need and they just miss it.
1:32:54They just miss it. And she gets it by
1:32:57saying, "Why didn't you let him out?"
1:33:00The single best question I've heard the
1:33:02entire day.
1:33:03And then you get that I'll give you 5
1:33:05minutes or so. Ding, ding, ding, we have
1:33:08a winner.
1:33:09That right there shows that she is
1:33:11punishing him, that something is going
1:33:13on, and she had some intent. Now, you go
1:33:15back to that law.
1:33:17Look, when she's on trial, and that's
1:33:19going on right about now, they're going
1:33:20to bring all that up. They're going to
1:33:22say, "Look, I told him I'd give him 5
1:33:23minutes or so." And she did kind of a
1:33:24really with her face, if you notice.
1:33:26That's the only piece of body language I
1:33:27would say. That's the beginning of a
1:33:29confession. With a good interrogator,
1:33:32all I'd do is I go in there and I start
1:33:33asking questions and I'll say,
1:33:36"Was that retribution? Did he choke you?
1:33:38You said he choked you. Did you intend
1:33:41to keep him in there 5 minutes and then
1:33:43you thought, well,
1:33:44I think I'm just going to go upstairs
1:33:46and let him suffer a little bit longer
1:33:47and then you passed out?
1:33:49You knew he was suffering. You knew he
1:33:51couldn't get out.
1:33:52But they don't. They just keep pushing
1:33:56instead of listening and instead of
1:33:58going back to her first thing where it
1:34:00wasn't in my plan, I went upstairs and
1:34:01then I passed out and looping that back
1:34:04after she says, "I was going to give him
1:34:065 minutes in there." We miss all that.
1:34:08We miss a confession. And she's giving
1:34:11you the elements of it right here.
1:34:12Scott, what do you got?
1:34:13All right. Um
1:34:15So, you got everything You whatever
1:34:17everything I was going to I thought I
1:34:18had a big old uh
1:34:19thing there, but you nailed everything.
1:34:21But let's focus on the guy again just
1:34:23for a second. Let me talk about that
1:34:24guy. Watch his body language and think
1:34:26about the people you've seen on TV and
1:34:28cartoons when they're in a poker game or
1:34:30something and they're and they won and
1:34:32they're pushing all the chips over to
1:34:33him. He's sitting there with his all
1:34:34scrunched up doing his hands looking
1:34:36like that like he just won a bunch of
1:34:37money or he just won the lottery or
1:34:39something.
1:34:40Again, no teamwork in this. Nobody's
1:34:42listening to anybody. Everybody's on
1:34:44their phones.
1:34:45Texting back and forth. The phones are
1:34:47dinging. They're looking at their
1:34:47phones. And when the the woman is is
1:34:50talking to the to
1:34:52Sarah she asked When she asked her a
1:34:54question, she looks down cuz her phone
1:34:56dings and then she just sits there and
1:34:58flicks on her phone for a while even
1:35:00while she's
1:35:02I don't think she's even listening to
1:35:03her. They can't be listening because
1:35:05this woman
1:35:06did everything she could do just to give
1:35:09them all the information she could
1:35:10possibly give them. And they haven't
1:35:12heard a bit of it. And you'll notice
1:35:13it's the same thing over and over like
1:35:15I've been doing because that's what's
1:35:16going on in here. I feel sorry for the I
1:35:19feel sorry for her. I feel sorry for
1:35:20these two detectives because it's this
1:35:23is embarrassing.
1:35:24This is bad.
1:35:26Okay. What's your reasoning for
1:35:29not calling 911 sooner?
1:35:32Because I didn't know what to do and how
1:35:33horrific it was.
1:35:36I called Brian and like what? 5 minutes
1:35:38later I called you guys.
1:35:40Not even 5 minutes. Nonetheless, but I
1:35:42had to like try to I was trying to do
1:35:44CPR.
1:35:46I was trying to do CPR. I had to get him
1:35:48out.
1:35:50And try to do CPR.
1:35:52And then called you guys.
1:35:54And then was continually doing CPR with
1:35:57the dispatch on the phone.
1:36:00Where he had me count out loud to help
1:36:03me focus on what I was doing.
1:36:11It just
1:36:14I don't know how
1:36:17I mean, you
1:36:18you can sit here all day long and say I
1:36:20thought he was going to get himself out,
1:36:21but that's
1:36:23he didn't and you went upstairs
1:36:27and you stayed there for 30 minutes
1:36:29before you fell asleep. How But can I
1:36:32say to you like
1:36:33not to ever at any point during that 30
1:36:35minutes walk back down and check on him.
1:36:37No, wait 1 second because I know like
1:36:40with you all and then like but you
1:36:42continually ask me like time frames,
1:36:45time frames, time frames. Where I told
1:36:46you like I don't bother even looking at
1:36:48the clock most of the time. So, it's
1:36:50like a guess to me. So, I For all I
1:36:52know, I was
1:36:53maybe it was 10 minutes. Okay.
1:36:56But the point is you left the living
1:36:58room where he was begging for help and
1:37:01went upstairs. Regardless of how long
1:37:03you were there, you left. You said I
1:37:05didn't
1:37:06he was the boy calling wolf.
1:37:08Again. Okay.
1:37:10So, when he asked to be let out, like
1:37:13what's your reasoning for not letting
1:37:14him out? When I was upstairs? No, when
1:37:17he's asking on the video. He asked
1:37:19multiple times. He asked to be let out.
1:37:21I can't breathe. What Like why didn't
1:37:22you let him out?
1:37:25Well, number one, I
1:37:26number one, I had no idea it was going
1:37:28to end like that.
1:37:29Okay. Number one. Okay.
1:37:31Uh number two, just
1:37:34You know what?
1:37:35I'll give you 5 minutes or so in there.
1:37:38That's going to give you 5 minutes or
1:37:39so. 5 minutes for what?
1:37:43Well, based off the video, one video is
1:37:45at 11:12 and the next one's 11:23. So,
1:37:48you actually gave him at least 11
1:37:50minutes per video recording.
1:37:52So, my my thing is when it stopped
1:37:55he asked multiple times. I mean, why?
1:37:57Why did you not let him out? It's just a
1:37:59simple question. To be honest with you,
1:38:01I I mean
1:38:04Were you punishing him?
1:38:06No.
1:38:07Just
1:38:07Well, that's what you're saying in the
1:38:08video.
1:38:10I'm This is what you got. This is what
1:38:12you make me feel like. See, and then
1:38:15it's all backfired on me. Like it's all
1:38:17backfired on me. And I understand the
1:38:19severity of this. I just
1:38:21No, you don't. It's awful. I know.
1:38:23Okay.
1:38:25It's awful.
1:38:28And I will tell you both this right now,
1:38:30too. I will never drink alcohol again.
1:38:33Okay. Like I will never drink alcohol
1:38:35again. I don't care what it is in any
1:38:37way, shape, or form.
1:38:40All right, let's throw around the room
1:38:41one time and talk about what we think we
1:38:43we've seen. Mark, why don't you go
1:38:44first?
1:38:45Yeah, look, just you don't need to
1:38:47argue. Don't argue. Watch, listen, be
1:38:49curious.
1:38:50Don't argue. Chase, what do you think?
1:38:53Yep. With zero training in interroga-
1:38:57interrogation, zero, and just 3 minutes
1:39:00of training in understanding behavior
1:39:03and who you're speaking to, who that
1:39:04person is, this would have been a
1:39:06dramatically different interrogation and
1:39:08I think they would have been successful
1:39:10without any interrogation training, just
1:39:12a tiny tiny bit of behavior training.
1:39:15Different outcome. Great.
1:39:17I'll take it a step further. If you take
1:39:19the words of Don Landrum, one of my
1:39:20mentors, you got one mouth and two ears,
1:39:22shut up and listen, you would get a lot
1:39:25more. The word patterns that this person
1:39:27used along the way would tell you that
1:39:29they're trying to give you information.
1:39:31I think that she has no idea how much
1:39:32trouble she's in. She ends up getting
1:39:34arrested and is on trial. I think she
1:39:35has no idea how much trouble she's in
1:39:37and she is bleeding information. I don't
1:39:40know that I would think that this was
1:39:43intentional. It looks like something
1:39:44gone wrong. Not going to weigh in on
1:39:46that. Not my my job. But she bleeds so
1:39:49much information that the right touch
1:39:51point, the right listen, the right
1:39:53process, interrogation approaches, or
1:39:56narrative would have gotten her to give
1:39:58you the right words. Scott.
1:40:00I think I could take my mother and the
1:40:02woman that cuts her hair and sit them
1:40:04down for about 4 minutes and say do this
1:40:07this this this and this and they would
1:40:08have done so much better than these two.
1:40:10I think they would have walked out there
1:40:11with a confession first
1:40:13what they needed right out of the gate.
1:40:15I think it would have been over in there
1:40:16about 15 20 minutes.
1:40:18And that'd have been it. All right. I
1:40:20think this is another good one.
1:40:21That'd have been a good haircut as well.
1:40:23That's true, too. That's true. That's
1:40:25true, too.
1:40:27All right. I think this is another good
1:40:28one and I'll see you next time.
1:40:30See you. See you.
1:40:31The behavior panel.
1:40:36All right. I hate how bad we had to
1:40:38abuse these guys, but damn it.
1:40:39Oh man, me too. Me too. You know what?
1:40:42Maybe they'll get back to them and maybe
1:40:43they'll do something about that because
1:40:45they're going to put somebody in prison
1:40:46who doesn't need to be in prison. Yeah,
1:40:48they're going to pull me over when I'm
1:40:49driving down I-40 about 80 miles an
1:40:51hour. Besides us going on a trip to
1:40:53Disney.
1:40:54I'm serious. They're not going to see a
1:40:55false confession. Or they're not going
1:40:57to see
1:40:58they can't. Well, they they're going to
1:40:59talk and not listen. That's the problem.
1:41:02Yeah. Yeah. So, what do you got?
1:41:10Hey yo.
1:41:11Hey yo.
1:41:13Hey yo.
1:41:16I got to wash

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