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Is the New Digitized SAT Test Better for Students? — Transcript

by Cyndy McDonald's Channel · 8,518 words · 1,252 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

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0:01hello everyone thank you for joining me
0:04today thank you for joining me in 2024
0:06it's hard to believe that we have this
0:08new year and this new opportunity
0:11to look at things and explore things and
0:15have a I have a whole new lineup and
0:17Friday Forum I have new guests that
0:19you're going to be introduced to and
0:21some popular returning guests my name as
0:24I mentioned is CD McDonald I'm an
0:26instructor for the UCLA College
0:29counseling certific ifate program I'm an
0:31entrepreneur I'm an educator and I'm
0:34also a business coach and I'm so honored
0:37to be able to bring to you these Friday
0:39Forums on a regular basis to talk about
0:42important subjects to us with people who
0:46are experts in these areas and I'm so
0:49honored today to have as my guest Robert
0:53chaffer more commonly known as Bob and
0:56Bob is with Fair test and he and I have
0:59been colleagues for a number of years
1:02and I wanted to talk with him we're
1:04going to talk about the digital sat and
1:07standardise testing so as you're logging
1:11in go ahead and let Bob know where
1:14you're from so put your name and your
1:16location and it gives us an opportunity
1:19for you to say hello to each other so
1:22welcome Bob I'm glad to have you here
1:24today we're going to have a great
1:26conversation about things that are
1:29important to our students and our
1:31families in our schools on standardized
1:35tests so thank you for being here thanks
1:37Cindy and happy New Year to everybody
1:39who's joined us it is nice to have this
1:42as a new year isn't it I want to let
1:45people know a little bit about your
1:47background um Bob Schaefer is currently
1:50the public education director of fair
1:52test which is if you're not familiar
1:55with it it's the national Center for
1:57fair and open testing where he
2:00coordinated the organization's
2:01University admissions reform program
2:04over several decades and we've been
2:06watching that we've been watching that
2:08test optional list and all those things
2:10grow and expand um he's also coordinated
2:14the organization's University um the he
2:17has also served as the organization's
2:20executive director or co-executive
2:23director for five years
2:26currently Mr schaer is the research
2:28director of the mass Massachusetts
2:30legislator's joint committee on Human
2:32Services that's a a mouthful it's for
2:36sounds very uh um engaging and
2:40interesting editorial writer at the NBC
2:43TV affiliate in Boston and talk show
2:46host at the regional NPR affiliate he
2:49also worked at the education research
2:51center of the Massachusetts Institute of
2:54Technology whom we all lovingly call MIT
2:57right where he was both an undergraduate
3:00and a graduate student Bob is frequently
3:04quoted by Major media outlets and in you
3:07if you've heard him you understand why
3:09he's very articulate and very passionate
3:12about this topic he's been featured in
3:14New York Times Washington Post Wall
3:17Street Journal LA Times NPR CNN
3:21Associated Press and a manyi trade
3:23Publications he's also presented at
3:26national
3:27conferences and you know done a lot of
3:33um presenting and advocating in many
3:36different areas so Bob thank you for all
3:39of that and
3:41for being on that Forefront for so so
3:44many years I think it shows to us how
3:48important these um being Advocates is
3:51and yet how long it takes but look at
3:55all the changes that you've seen over
3:57the years right
4:00well there have been certainly have been
4:01major changes one of the first projects
4:04Fest did um after it was launched by
4:07leaders of civil rights education reform
4:10and women's and students groups in the
4:12mid1
4:131980s was to take a look at um schools
4:17that didn't use standardized tests for
4:19admission and it led to a report called
4:22Beyond standardized tests admissions
4:24Alternatives at work and we're able to
4:26list about two dozen schools Across the
4:30Nation that either for undergraduate
4:33admissions or graduate school did not
4:35rely on the ACT SAT gr GMAT uh MCAT um
4:41and now there are on Fair test.org on on
4:45our website the list of test optional
4:48and test blind schools that do not
4:51require act or SAT scores to be
4:54submitted before admissions decisions
4:56are made is now over 2 50 4-year
5:01colleges and universities that's out of
5:03a universe of about
5:052267 the federal government says schools
5:09that admit first year students for
5:11bachelor's degrees so now more than 90%
5:14of all foure schools in the US do not
5:17require all or many applicants to submit
5:21test scores before admissions decisions
5:23are made and at The Graduate School
5:25level there's a rapidly growing Movement
5:28we was coined the grexit GRE exit
5:30movement to eliminate the gr um and
5:34other tests like the GMAT um LSAT MCAT
5:38as
5:39well and that's and those are definitely
5:42we see that movement at both ends right
5:45and we're talking about the k12 and that
5:47aspect and then also as you mentioned
5:49the graduate let's take a step back a
5:52little bit and tell us a little bit more
5:53about Fair test org do um Fair test.org
5:57itself what is its mission
6:00and when was it founded faest was
6:03founded in
6:041985 after a conference uh that was
6:08convened up the Hudson River from New
6:10York City that had leaders of civil
6:13rights litigating groups women's
6:15organizations some student groups like
6:17The pergs and a number of academics who
6:21concluded that there needed to be an
6:23organization in the US devoted to
6:27exposing the flaws and misuses of
6:30standardized tests while simultaneously
6:33advocating for better forms of
6:35assessment and that led to the the
6:37founding of of the national Center for
6:39fair and open testing its full legal
6:41name um in in Cambridge Massachusetts at
6:45that time um to be the nation's testing
6:49Watchdog and over the years we've
6:52developed
6:53a there's always more fires to fight
6:56than we have resources to to deal with
6:58them but we have active programs uh
7:01dealing with everything from sort of
7:03kindergarten entry tests uh right up
7:06through occupational licensing tests uh
7:09for everything from lawyers to nuclear
7:12power plant
7:14operators wow but we've always had major
7:16programming uh in University Admissions
7:20and um have had tremendous success in
7:22that area well and I don't think people
7:26we don't think of testing often times
7:29from that Equity access perspective or
7:33even as a civil rights issue and yet it
7:36is I know in my work and through Avid
7:40you know we were constantly battling
7:43that as well um from an equity
7:46perspective so that that does so nice to
7:51have a watchdog and yeah I mean and
7:53fairest has one foot anchored in the
7:56equity civil rights world and the other
7:58foot in the education reform um better
8:02assessment world and we try and blend
8:05the two uh to argue that as we said our
8:09goal is to make assessment Fair open and
8:12educationally
8:14sound and that's educationally sound is
8:17kind of the key issue right now with the
8:19SAT the digital sat so let's talk about
8:24that how does the digital one differ
8:26from the traditional one well first of
8:29all it's important to recognize and many
8:31longstanding counselors know this uh
8:34this is the fifth comprehensive overhaul
8:36of the SAT and fair test experience the
8:39third uh this Century um and about every
8:43seven or eight years they come out like
8:45it's auto manufacturers with uh you know
8:49the new Cadillac with or without
8:50tailfins or maybe it's the new Coke um
8:53this time around the changes are a bit
8:55more fundamental often it's the
8:58equivalent of painting lipstick on the
8:59pigs and test goes from 1,600 to 2400
9:03and there is an essay there isn't an
9:05essay this time the fundamental delivery
9:09mechanism of the exam has changed to
9:11keep up with technology moving from a
9:15three plus hour pencil and paper
9:18multiple choice largely multiple choice
9:20exam to one that is administered on
9:23laptops or tablets um on computers and
9:28one that is um computer adaptive meaning
9:32that two people sitting next to each
9:34other in a testing center will not get
9:37the same questions um they will get you
9:40know questions that are in theory and
9:43one of the problems with the new SAT is
9:45that the the algorithm for for create
9:48for determining which questions you get
9:50is a black box um nobody knows except
9:53for the test makers what the formula is
9:55for deciding whether you get a tougher
9:57or an easier question next after your
10:00answer uh but there is there it is much
10:03more customized as and a result of that
10:06is that the test is significantly
10:08shorter it'll be barely two hours in
10:11administration um it'll be solely on
10:13laptops um many of the questions are
10:15going to be shorter than what people
10:17remember on the old pencil and paper sat
10:21the reading comprehension passages are
10:23typically 150 words or less there are no
10:27long boring essays there may be short
10:29boring essays um and a series of
10:32questions one question after each one so
10:36it's it's a different experience um and
10:39one of that raises Equity concern for
10:41kids who are not comfortable with
10:43computers um but overall it appears to
10:47be a more consumer friendly product not
10:51a better product in terms of the goals
10:54of the
10:55test the problems with the test and we
10:58do focus on that that is that in the
11:01thousands of words that the College
11:02Board has published about the exam
11:05nowhere do they say it will be a better
11:07predictor of undergraduate success and
11:10nowhere will it say it will be a fairer
11:12measure of a diverse population's
11:14Readiness for college now as I recall
11:17since we've been doing it those are the
11:19two primary criticisms of the SAT it's
11:22unfair and it's not an accurate
11:24predictor so this change changes the
11:27format doesn't change the the the core
11:30fundamentals it'll still be highly
11:34coachable often inaccurate sometimes
11:37biased exam that measures only a small
11:41fraction of what it takes to succeed as
11:44an
11:45undergraduate right right and yeah and
11:49if the fundamental purpose or premise of
11:52it is not changed whether it's
11:54electronic or large or whatever system
11:58it's NE not going to change and
12:00particularly over the last four or five
12:02years the vast majority of colleges in
12:05the United States have concluded that
12:08they can do Fair accurate admissions
12:11just as well without the testing
12:13requirement as with it pre preco about
12:1845% of the colleges in the country were
12:20test optional including a number of
12:22Super selective ones like the University
12:24of Chicago uh but with the the uh
12:29with the the pandemic everybody went
12:32test optional in the first year nearly
12:35all schools have maintain the testing uh
12:39waiver um some for multiple years that
12:42and many many permanently in
12:44California uh a number of the public
12:47universities the you the c um University
12:51of California and California state
12:53system have gone test blind which means
12:56they won't even look at test scores or
12:58consider them if submitted and they
13:00operate they I've been unpanel with a
13:02number of admission staff from the UC
13:04system they're able to run admissions
13:06you don't need test scores so from our
13:10perspective the the primary purpose of
13:14the re this revision of the SAT was to
13:17try and reposition that test in a
13:20shrinking Marketplace uh the College
13:22Board and its competitor at act suffered
13:26significant revenue losses over the last
13:28several years years they've laid off
13:30staff about 15% of staff at both
13:33companies have been laid off because of
13:35declines and testing volume and it was
13:38necessary to refresh the product in
13:40order to try and boost
13:43Revenue yeah well that makes sense you
13:46know we used to have as you said the
13:48essay and that's no longer there we used
13:50to have the sa 2 subjects and then they
13:53went to sat2 and then they went back to
13:55the SAT subjects and those no longer
13:58exist either so then that puts the
14:00emphasis back on AP right uh and at
14:05selective
14:07schools in terms of testing data uh AP
14:11probably plays a more significant role
14:13I've done panels with a number of
14:15admissions directors who say who claim
14:18that it does not have a significant role
14:20as many people
14:23fear because because at sophisticated
14:26admissions offices they recognize the
14:29huge differences across the country and
14:31the opportunities to take AP coures and
14:34tests from underresourced schools to
14:37wealthy
14:39ones yeah yeah and that that is very
14:42true so let's when the electronic sat
14:46was released it was released in
14:49internationally first so how did that
14:52roll out go you know we're looking at
14:54the first electronic version coming out
14:56in the US in March but what what was the
14:59experience
15:01internationally well the test was rolled
15:03out outside the US um last March uh nine
15:07months ago and the reason they they did
15:09it overseas is because they had a
15:11tremendous security problem with
15:13administering tests pencil and paper
15:15test over seat every round of the SAT
15:19outside the US in the last several years
15:21had been compromised because people got
15:24their hands on the test uh in advance uh
15:27and and were able to circulate some or
15:30all questions so that a number of kids
15:33had a grossly unfair Advantage um the
15:39the roll out of of the digital sat
15:42globally appeared not to have any
15:45significant problems they worked very
15:47hard to make sure that the technology
15:50worked internationally and that was a
15:52good sign that for the upcoming roll out
15:56in the US a bad sign is that in October
15:59of
16:002023 the College Board rolled out the
16:03digital PSAT and it
16:06collapsed uh in many places in the first
16:09few minutes of administration servers
16:12couldn't handle uh the in the demand
16:16capacity wasn't there customer service
16:18was non-existent schools were left
16:21hanging and counselors always counselors
16:23are always left in the middle suffering
16:25and I really appreciate the crucial role
16:28you play and and how you're put in the
16:30middle on this uh but it it many schools
16:34had a reschedule and and and try it
16:36again uh which was very disruptive and
16:38not a good sign for the upcoming March
16:41roll out of the digital sat in the US
16:45and that was one of my questions as well
16:47you know um what does it look like I
16:50know in past rollouts like we remember
16:53years ago when the Common App debuted a
16:55new version it came out it was a
16:59disaster and
17:01so has College Board done anything to
17:04prepare to to boost things up because
17:08they're gonna be
17:11the we off faites often wins points with
17:15the news media by tell urging reporters
17:17to call the College Board because they
17:20get the same non-answers
17:22ofation and finger pointing that
17:25counselors often get from them um the
17:28college board says that they have solved
17:31the problems and that the digital sat
17:35will work on March 9th uh as when it's
17:38rolled out they you know they also had
17:41tremendous problems the first time they
17:43rolled out the digital a uh AP exams in
17:47the pandemic with there was you know we
17:50were involved in a half billion dollar
17:52law suit uh against the College Board
17:54because many kids had got black screens
17:57of death after completing the death test
17:59or finish the test and never got scores
18:02or got scores which were totally
18:04ludicrous um so you know we're hopeful
18:08but
18:09uh those who want to trust the College
18:13Board can but we're in the verify
18:15category we'll see we'll see what they
18:18do trust but verify right
18:21yes well so we did have a conversation
18:25last night I was mentioning um you know
18:27as I posted this on social media one of
18:30our counselors in Japan said that you
18:33know his students in Japan had a much
18:35better experience taking the you know
18:38the digital one and he found it much
18:40easier to administer so how does the
18:44digital how does that look from an
18:46administrative like you know my role as
18:48a counselor in a school how does that
18:50make it easier for me in a
18:52well-resourced
18:53institution with student and staff who
18:57are you know computer literate and
19:00regularly use laptops and and tablets in
19:04their work and that has sufficient
19:06bandwidth yes it should be ultimately a
19:10smoother experience uh makes it easier
19:13to to deliver the test during school
19:15days um rather than on on weekends
19:20and less the the the test is more of a
19:24self-contained vehicle it administers
19:26itself the Proctors and and test side
19:29supervisors in theory have to do less
19:32running around and craziness in order to
19:35keep uh and and timekeeping in order to
19:39to make the test work uh whether that
19:41plays out in less resourced environments
19:45where kids have had fewer experiences
19:50with computers and testing remains to be
19:53seen the concern is that like so many
19:56other technological ch changes it
19:59further advantages those who already
20:01have the most advantages yeah who have
20:03the resources and but you know
20:07it they've
20:09clearly the PSAT experience
20:12notwithstanding they've clearly spent a
20:14lot of time and
20:15resources um beta testing this system
20:20and you know it it
20:23looks on press draws and the same thing
20:26happened when the the new GR
20:28back 20 years ago that went to computer
20:31huge crashes I mean that the people
20:33rushed products to Market before they
20:35were ready for prime time it happens
20:37with K12 uh computerized testing still
20:40and one hopes that that the years of a
20:43development there was a year delay and
20:45and the roll out of the um computerized
20:48sat in the US and the experience with
20:51overseas
20:53administrations made it more likely that
20:56it'll be a satisfactory Administration
20:58for for kids but you know we we'll we'll
21:01be watching very carefully uh to see
21:03whether that
21:04materializes yeah yeah and but but but
21:07the bigger quick question remains you
21:09know
21:10if taking a a poor assessment that was
21:16on pencil and paper and transforming it
21:19onto a computer doesn't make it a better
21:21assessment makes it a different
21:23assessment um but if it's if it's it's
21:26going to be coachable in different ways
21:29maybe in ways that further Advantage
21:32kids who have access to coaching because
21:34of the the sophistication involved and
21:37understanding the algorithm for for
21:40delivering the computer adaptive
21:43subsections of the test um you know it
21:48there's a there's a lot of as yet
21:50unknowns and the still a fundamental
21:53question will it be a better tool in the
21:56admissions process will it be a Terror
21:58tool no evidence of yes to those
22:01questions yeah so it goes back to the
22:03fundamental purpose and reason for its
22:06existence and and and and you know quite
22:08frankly who needs it I mean if you know
22:11we don't need it for UCLA or UC at
22:14Stanford and Caltech and and UC Berkeley
22:17don't need test and Harvard and Yellen
22:20Princeton don't need them and you know
22:23most Flagship publics and Regional
22:26publics and small liberal arts colleges
22:28are functioning quite happily without
22:30standardized test some of them for as
22:32long as 50 years um have have been test
22:35option it works you don't need the exam
22:39so let's I want to go back to the prep
22:41for students for a minute are have there
22:44been ways identified that is going to be
22:48able to coach students on the SAT I know
22:51I have people in my audience who do test
22:53prep so what is what are what are they
22:56finding from that perspective
22:58well talking to people in the the test
23:01prep coaching industry there have been
23:04two Trends from the introduction of the
23:07computerized Sat one is a surge of
23:09people into into sat coaching that's
23:12because it's new and different that
23:14every time the SAT has changed there
23:16spere and you know you go to The Experts
23:19the major companies you know be they
23:22Princeton Review or Compass or method or
23:24or Kap we have F has no business
23:26relationships with any of them and view
23:29them as kind of a necessary evil that
23:32exists because of the test um and it you
23:35know the that they have all produced
23:39pretty
23:40sophisticated test coaching programs
23:43many of them have modeled uh the Blue
23:46Book system that the College Board is
23:48using for the uh digital
23:51sat um the other trend is that many more
23:55kids are expected to take the ACT
23:58because it's tried and true you knew
24:00that the the the test prep book from
24:02five years ago that your older sibling
24:05used is still appropriate um and you
24:09know you'll stick with
24:11the the what you're accustomed to um
24:14until the digital sat proves itself yeah
24:18we expect to see you know lower volume
24:20digital sat more volume act more
24:23coaching in the short
24:25run and that but all in an Environ
24:28in which there's much less pressure to
24:31take tests because of you know
24:34particularly on the west coast where
24:36essentially every University on on the
24:39west coast not just California but
24:41Oregon uh Washington Alaska Hawaii are
24:45don't require test you why take them
24:49right right right exactly um that's and
24:53that's what my students and since I'm in
24:55California that's exactly what they say
24:58is why take the test I it's not going to
25:01help me get into the uc's OR CSUS
25:05they'll they'll use it maybe for um some
25:08private schools but um but I do see a
25:10lot of students from a counselor
25:12perspective for all those reasons you
25:14cited like I'm just going to go with the
25:16ACT um it'll be accepted I know how to
25:20prep for it um parents are comfortable
25:23you know parents too when something's
25:25new and different it makes them very
25:26uneasy and and they don't like working
25:30with unknowns so I I do expect to see
25:33the act the only challenge I see is if
25:36they going to be enough Administration
25:38is the act bumping up expecting this
25:41because I know in my area my students
25:43have to travel quite a distance to take
25:45the ACT because the SAT is more common
25:48and more um available so yeah I mean it
25:53it becomes a a cycle in which you know
25:56let kids take the SAT so so there are
25:58fewer administrations and so it's harder
26:01to take the test so less kids take the S
26:03it's not necessarily a bad cycle from
26:06our
26:08perspective true true true true um so
26:12what is the difference I was one of my
26:14questions too what's the difference
26:15between the act and
26:18sat much Le well it one huge difference
26:22is delivery format um in the US starting
26:27in March the next sat in terms of
26:30content not all that much there are
26:33slight differences in content coverage
26:36uh the new SAT digital sat has less
26:40geometry um that it appears that the ACT
26:43does but um both test a set of verbal
26:49and written and the quantitative skills
26:53that One Believes are are helpful for
26:57college uccess not not the most
26:59important things for for undergraduate
27:01success no test can measure uh you know
27:05your ability to to to deliver on
27:07deadline to self-discipline to work with
27:10others Etc and that's why tests are are
27:12such a weak predictor even the best
27:15test right and it and it goes back to
27:18the whole fundamental it's a test you
27:20know it's a standardized test right so
27:23um but now what's you know we've been
27:27talking about the large number of
27:29schools that are test optional and
27:32you've mentioned another term test blind
27:35what's the difference well test blind
27:37means that test scores will not be
27:40considered at any stage of the
27:42admissions process in any way test
27:45optional means that if they are
27:47submitted the school will give some
27:50consideration to them um in the
27:52admissions process test blind they're
27:55about 88 test blind institutions of 2200
27:59foure schools the vast majority of which
28:02are in California uh the the California
28:06uh both public systems the the
28:08University of California system um and
28:10the California state system are both
28:13test optional and then there are a
28:15number of of smaller liberal arts
28:17schools across the country which will
28:20not consider test
28:21scores yeah yeah and I think that's
28:25sometimes that's confusing to parents
28:27and students and then it's also can be
28:31not necessarily confusing but
28:33complicated well and then then there's
28:34another term that get batted around
28:37which is test flexible and and there
28:39used to
28:40be five six years ago a number of
28:42colleges that say well you don't have to
28:44submit act or sat if you submit
28:49apib Cambridge or some other form of or
28:53SAT subject test back in those days
28:55there are no schools in that category
28:58anymore um and then there we've noticed
29:01an increase in number of schools saying
29:04well test preferred you don't have to
29:07but we'd like it if you do um
29:10in Nuance language like that but for the
29:15vast majority of schools test optional
29:18is the real policy they have a setup
29:21systems so that if you don't submit test
29:24scores you're neither advantaged nor
29:26disadvantaged
29:27in the admissions process and I I I saw
29:31a comment in the chat yes some schools U
29:35do use test scores for so-called Merit
29:38Aid and that's important um there are
29:41more than enough seats at colleges for
29:43every kid who wants to go to college but
29:45if they don't have money that's a
29:46totally meaningless opportunity in fact
29:50the number of Merit Scholarships tied to
29:52test scores has declined quite rapidly
29:55over the last five or six years so that
29:57only about a quarter of so-called Merit
30:00programs are attached to um to test
30:04scores and we have we did a recent
30:05report my colleague Akil Bellow uh at
30:08fairest did a report on this six months
30:11ago and it's linked on our homepage at
30:14fairtest.org and you can see how
30:16relatively small the number of test
30:19score based Merit Scholarships is right
30:23now and that's one of the advocacy
30:25things you're working on is is T you
30:28know
30:29decoupling um testing with those Merit
30:33Scholarships especially places like
30:35Florida what other states still have
30:38those merits um um Florida has the
30:41bright future scholarships uh Louisiana
30:45has leap um South Georgia South Carolina
30:49has pometto Georgia has two scholarship
30:52programs uh one of which doesn't require
30:55test scores hope and one of which zel
30:57Miller does require test scores and
31:00that's uh in terms of the biggies that's
31:02about it and of course the National
31:04Merit Scholarship program which Fitz has
31:07always said should be called the
31:09national test taking scholarship
31:15program I love that well we do we have
31:18quite a few comments here in the chat so
31:21let's um go through some of this um so
31:26Leah says I'm curious how the College
31:28Board is validating scores to be the
31:30same on the old and the new SAT when
31:33it's changed so much how do they ensure
31:35a400 on the old is400 on the new call me
31:39curious too in fact when you're you're
31:43dealing with the testing industry there
31:46is no outside governmental oversight
31:49body there is less control over what
31:52goes into tests than over the food we
31:55feed our pets um they the how do they uh
31:59validate the test and its scores they
32:02say so now they they do claim to have
32:05studies but they do the studies
32:07themselves they're not there's no
32:10independent body there's no Consumer
32:12Report or under raters lab or Food and
32:15Drug Administration that verifies the
32:18claim of testing companies and that's
32:20one of the major problems and there have
32:22been the companies that wouldn't
32:24necessarily say the act or or the
32:26College Board
32:27which has been found in court for kind
32:30of making up validation when
32:33necessary to sell product I mean these
32:35are businesses the College Board and and
32:38act and educational testing services are
32:41all
32:42nonprofits uh but they make huge amounts
32:44of money they pay their Executives a
32:46million millions of dollars a year um
32:49you know they own their own the
32:51educational testing service owns its own
32:54you
32:56know
32:57kind of aate in outside of Princeton New
32:59Jersey with the goose ponds and horse
33:02trails equestrian trails and and things
33:05like that these are very good ways to
33:08make money and like everybody else with
33:11self-interest you don't necessarily
33:13trust what they say without independent
33:16evidence and there is no independent
33:19evidence of that claim yet that's
33:22interesting should should students
33:25download the Blue Book ahead of time I'm
33:27not sure what the blue book is the blue
33:28book is the the tool that the College
33:31Board has developed to deliver the test
33:34absolutely yes you want to you know just
33:38like we would tell people when the P the
33:41SAT was delivered pencil and paper find
33:44if you want to pre prep on computer take
33:46prep practice test pencil and paper take
33:49a practice test on the bluebolt or
33:52something similar or one of the the F
33:55similes of it that that the test prep
33:57companies have made it's it's a
33:59different experience doing a test online
34:03rather than in pencil and paper you can
34:05more easily cross out uh and and and
34:08mark things to come back to though
34:09they're reasonably good tools to do that
34:11in Blue Book but yes download it and
34:14play with it uh to make sure you're
34:16comfortable you mean when when do you
34:20come in to take the test your sole brain
34:24power should be focused on answering the
34:26question
34:27nothing about the process same was true
34:29for pencil and paper test anybody who
34:31read the directions when they took the
34:33test on testing dat was wasting time you
34:36got zero points for reading questions
34:38you got you get points for doing answers
34:41so you you don't want to get caught up
34:43in trying to understand the computer
34:46system go in comfortable with
34:50that yeah I think that's good Sound
34:52Advice in any any kind of testing
34:55situations so that's that's very helpful
34:59um so Sophia ask what about the highly
35:01selected schools that show their common
35:04data set that a large percent of
35:05enrolled students actually submitted
35:08scores does that make them really test
35:12optional well you know you need to get
35:14dig down deep into um that data set I've
35:18done panels with um you know admissions
35:22directors from places like Cornell and
35:25Caltech um and UC Berkeley in in recent
35:28years and they say yes it's you almost
35:33have to be able to read files and watch
35:35the process to know how valid the claim
35:41is yes there is in some number of
35:44schools there are higher admit rates for
35:47kids who submit scores but what
35:49admissions directors say is that for the
35:51most part submitters also have stronger
35:54academic records They higher GPA U more
35:58rigor in their High School courses so
36:01you it's hard to judge which factor is
36:04most important and a lot of this is
36:06about perception if students and
36:10counselors believe that there is an
36:12advantage to submitting test scores kids
36:15with high scores will submit test scores
36:17and you get another cycle of that mean
36:21it's important to understand that
36:23widespread test optional is a relatively
36:25recent
36:27social change significant social change
36:29phenomenon and there is a it it takes
36:32time for a change like that to get
36:36accommodated through the system um you
36:39know people kids teachers counselors
36:43siblings parents all experience the test
36:47as a as a common right of passage uh
36:50from high school to college and the
36:52world is different now and it's going to
36:53take a while to fully integrate that
36:56into to perceptions and reality so you
37:00know we we're again we're in trust with
37:02verify we we did I I I moderated a panel
37:06at uh National Association for college
37:08admissions counseling's most recent
37:10annual conference in Baltimore last fall
37:14with admissions directors who talking
37:16from Cornell and William and Mary and in
37:18count talking through uh their numbers
37:22and showing the data and I would say at
37:24those schools the policy are what they
37:27said the policies
37:29are and it was it I mean we did this
37:31consciously William and Mary has
37:32permanently test optional Cornell some
37:35programs are test blind some are test
37:38optional Caltech is temporarily at least
37:41for the next couple years totally test
37:45blind well and doesn't the data lag
37:48behind I mean you know as the the the um
37:54perception and the movement was like
37:57okay now we're we're seeing the test
37:59scores now from students that that are
38:03older and I think we're going to see
38:05that now with our freshman sophomores
38:08even Juniors you know that that movement
38:11is going to carry them along and then
38:13we'll start seeing different admission
38:15rates in the next few years versus
38:18especially over the last few with covid
38:21involved I mean what we do know from
38:23places like the Common App and the
38:25common data set is that the number of
38:27the percentage of kids um submitting
38:31scores with their applications is under
38:3350% now uh with the Common App um and
38:37the number in schools reporting in the
38:40most recent common data set um app in
38:44admits with scores has continued to
38:48decline well and you mention to the
38:51trend that we're seeing as counselors
38:53and what what we often debate is okay if
38:56it's test optional go ahead and take the
38:58test see if you can score really high
39:00and if you do then submit your scores
39:02and if you don't submit I mean if you
39:04don't score at the high level then you
39:07just don't submit them so then that's
39:09skewing the whole test thing anybody
39:11who's submitting test scores has got to
39:13be on that top end um in order and so
39:17that's going to skew the whole record
39:19anyway right yeah that I think that's
39:21right A lot of
39:22people the kind of a rule of thumb not
39:25necessarily a good one is if you know if
39:27in if you look at the 25th to 75th
39:29percentile of submitted test scores and
39:32you're below the median you definitely
39:34don't submit and the only case which you
39:36definitely do submit is if you're at the
39:3875th percentile or above um and that
39:41does spiral up the uh the average test
39:45score
39:46reported yeah I remember you know being
39:50here in California for for all the years
39:53that the University of California
39:55required that sat every if you wanted to
39:58apply um you had to take the test so it
40:01didn't matter what your score was you
40:04still had to take the test and so you
40:06had a much more normal bell curve and it
40:10was very helpful for students to see
40:12where they fell and now there is you
40:15know there is no normal bell curve
40:17anymore for students to use to evaluate
40:20where they're at or what they're doing
40:22so I that's fair I mean numbers are not
40:24always what they say we have to consider
40:26the context which the numbers are
40:30generated
40:31definitely um so let's see so Perry is
40:36appreciate you being on the call today
40:38Perry I know he does um test prep and
40:41works with students and counselling
40:42students he said there's no there was no
40:45um problem with roll out in his area um
40:49why would we want governmental
40:50involvement in
40:52this because why would you want the
40:55governmental well didn't advocate for
40:57against I just said there is no such
40:59thing um in most other countries uh
41:02admissions testing is done by a
41:04governmental agency
41:07um as a public function the what I was
41:11suggesting is that there needed to be
41:13some oversight and regulation because
41:16you know if you anybody on this call you
41:18can become a test maker tomorrow morning
41:21you don't have to take a test to become
41:23a test maker all you do is hang out a
41:26single and submit the low bid and and
41:28meet the Criterion and there's some
41:30companies that beh have behaved just
41:32like that and have have had huge
41:34problems particularly in the K12 testing
41:37Arena uh uh and teacher testing Arena uh
41:40there was just recently a settlement of
41:43a te teacher testing lawsuit in New York
41:46City in which the city ended up paying
41:49three qus of a billion dollars to
41:52teachers whose scores were um not
41:55justified because was the the company
41:57that made the test essentially made up
42:00the validation or so it appears wow well
42:05that's well and then that yeah that
42:07brings that back to the all the other um
42:10industry tests and teaching tests and
42:12nursing tests and you know doing your
42:16nails you know just those different
42:18kinds of things um somebody brings up
42:21great inflation so let's talk about that
42:23a lot of times we hear parents and
42:26students and counselors talk about well
42:28if they take away the the the test
42:31scores then all they have left is grades
42:35and there's huge grade inflation so how
42:37does that factor in I mean grade
42:40inflation is real um and so is test
42:44score inflation the percentage of kids
42:46getting 34s on act or 14 to 1500s on Sat
42:51has increased every year because of test
42:53prep and kids not submitting over with
42:56low scores not submitting so it's not
42:59like you know the test gives you
43:01something that you didn't
43:03have well staffed experienced admissions
43:07offices say that they can make those
43:10distinctions well enough uh to build the
43:13kinds of classes that they want I mean
43:16you know there's been has been great
43:18inflation people have talked about it as
43:19a problem for three decades now um and
43:23places you know like Bowden which has
43:25been test optional for for 50 God 55
43:30years um continues to be able to build
43:34high quality classes um it it can be
43:38adjusted for um not denying that it
43:41exists at as as an issue it's not all
43:44that much of a problem to admissions
43:46officers and I think that's a very key
43:50theme for us to remember and for us as
43:52counselors to communicate to our parents
43:54and students we need to trust the
43:56admissions office we need to trust that
43:59they're doing what they say and that
44:01they have the knowledge and expertise in
44:03order to train their teams to be able to
44:07I mean they're putting together a class
44:08I mean their their institution is is
44:12vitally invested in this I mean it's
44:14it's determined by the classes that they
44:16admit so they are going to do their very
44:19best to to yeah the right this work I've
44:23had the opportunity to to sit on panels
44:25and and talk one-on-one with you know
44:28dozens hundreds of admissions officers I
44:32think they are in it for the best
44:33interest of kids and their
44:35institutions and you know I don't see
44:39any reason not to trust those people I'm
44:43you know particularly people who've been
44:45around for a while and and and they've
44:49served at several institutions there's
44:51no value to them in making stuff up
44:54right right all and and there's no value
44:57in them not evaluating applications um
45:01you know from a perspective that
45:04contributes to their their institution
45:07you know we haven't talked about at all
45:09but I I mean one thing from from our
45:12perspective test optional is a win-win
45:15we've been talking about it as a value
45:17for for students it's also has been a
45:20win in many ways for admissions offices
45:23and their institutions t quickly when
45:26school goes test optional or test blind
45:29they get more applicants they get better
45:32quality applicants in terms of GPA
45:34course rigor um extracurricular
45:38activities range of academic interests
45:41Etc and they get more diversity of All
45:43Sorts race um particularly important
45:47after the Supreme Court affirmative
45:49action decision but
45:52geography um you know academic interests
45:55back uh extracurricular activities it
45:59makes it easier for them to build the
46:03the kind of classes they want to build
46:05because they have a better applicant
46:07pool to draw
46:09from and I want to go back to that point
46:11you just said about the um the Supreme
46:16Court decision this past summer and that
46:19has added to the whole College
46:22admissions and how do we really recruit
46:25a very diverse class um and testing is
46:30not a way to contribute to that
46:33diversity at all um I know from my area
46:38and and Laura you make she makes a
46:40really good point about this that you
46:42know middle and upper class kids are
46:45still taking the test they're taking it
46:47there on their own and then seeing how
46:49well they do because they can do that
46:51and not have to worry about do I have to
46:53submit these scores um but a lot of
46:56students aren't able to do that VI the
46:59prep or spend the time I find my
47:01students they don't have the time to
47:04spend doing the prep nor the money and
47:07so they but they need
47:10to they represent that diverse um
47:14component for the colleges so I think
47:17the the case for having a test optional
47:21is even stronger now because of that
47:24decision by the Supreme Point well I I
47:27think all that is true um I think the
47:29here the bottom line is important and
47:32schools that have gone test optional
47:34typically report uh some progress
47:37towards diversity goals and uh in the
47:40years after they admit test optional
47:42it's definitely true at test blind
47:44schools there's been tremendous
47:45Improvement in in representation of of
47:48un historically disenfranchise groups in
47:51in the UC schools um since the test
47:54scores were eliminated
47:56um it's you know
47:58people we have never claimed then our
48:01test optional Advocates have never
48:03claimed that eliminating test scores is
48:06a solution to racism uh or any of the
48:09other society's problems it is taking
48:11down one barrier to access and there are
48:14many others we applauded pre pre
48:17pandemic when the University of
48:19Chicago uh you know a globally selected
48:22school went test optional not just
48:24because they eliminated their Tesco
48:27requirement but because they put more
48:29money into recruiting and financial aid
48:32and the other things that make it
48:33possible to increase the pipeline of
48:37kids from backgrounds that hadn't been
48:39previously represented a campus it's
48:41it's not one thing it's a it's a part of
48:44the solution not the entire solution
48:46right but it it does help on average
48:49yeah and you know just peeling that
48:51onion away bit by bit and and andir test
48:55has been able to prove that you can make
48:57a difference and can move that needle
48:59over time so what are you looking for
49:02we've got just a few more minutes but
49:05what are you looking for in 2024 Bob
49:07what what are what are the new
49:09challenges or things that uh that you're
49:12well well every year we hear stories
49:14like those and that have been made in
49:15the comments of you know some schools
49:16are considering restoring um the test
49:20scores but the total number that have
49:22done that since the pandemic I didn't
49:23count on these figures um there yes uh
49:26MIT my alma M uh Georgetown our
49:29executive director's Alma M we're not
49:32doing very good personally with our
49:33liite efforts uh and a few other schools
49:37Georgia Tech University of Georgia
49:40University of
49:41Tennesse and you can name maybe five or
49:44six others have restored test scores out
49:46of 2,000 schools that don't have them I
49:50I think the the chat comment about the
49:53ivys I think Columbia said it's
49:55permanent ly test optional Harvard is is
49:57in for another several years I from our
50:01counting and you can see it on our
50:03website because we show when
50:05policies um expire on Fair test test
50:09optional list that they're only about
50:11200 schools that we don't know whether
50:13they're going to extend beyond 20 uh 24
50:17so I we'll still be around 2,000 schools
50:20test optional for full
50:222025 and you know once
50:26with each successive year it becomes
50:28harder to restore test scores because it
50:32becomes you know the the way we've
50:34always done things um at least in in the
50:37recent past but beyond that what Fair
50:40test is pushing for is one extending
50:42test optional or preferably test blind
50:45procedures to
50:48um to financial aid fact we' prefer to
50:52see Merit Aid eliminated and all that
50:54money go to need based Aid um so much
50:57from marit Aid is is reverse Robinhood
51:01of giving money to to the kids who are
51:03most able because of their families to
51:06to go to college and then extend that uh
51:10up to graduate admissions a lot of
51:12progress in with the gr um the law
51:16schools are are considering going test
51:19optional a number of Business Schools as
51:21well and we haven't talked about it here
51:24but we have a vigorous program in K12
51:27where test scores still play because of
51:29federal law in many cases a much more
51:32significant role uh and states have set
51:36requirements there are still eight
51:37states that where you have to pass the
51:39standardized test to get a high school
51:41diploma there are a number of states
51:43where they have to take a test in order
51:45to get promoted teachers have to take
51:47tests to keep their jobs in some places
51:50uh we'd like to to see the movement
51:53taking down those barriers and not to
51:57eliminate assessment but to create
51:59assessments that are fair open and
52:02educationally sound so performance
52:05assessment of the K12 level more
52:07emphasis on on academic record and
52:10admissions uh from undergraduate right
52:13through PHD
52:15programs and and I think that's the key
52:18is that this is not just a high school
52:21issue it's an educational issue and it
52:23starts at kindergarten and glowes clear
52:26through graduate school professional
52:28schools so um you know there's there is
52:31a lot of work to be done in that area
52:35but it's very encouraging to hear that
52:37the gr is going to be optional for some
52:41programs that business schools are
52:43looking at um law schools are looking at
52:46what about medical schools are well it
52:48depends I think it's an accreditation
52:50issue both in law and Medicine the
52:52accrediting bodies require schools to
52:55use tests so it's it's a fight at a
52:57different level um for sat or gr
53:02optional it's a school by school level
53:04this becomes an association level and uh
53:07the bar association American Bar
53:10associations has recommended to its
53:12member schools that they that it's you
53:14can be accredited test optional but it's
53:17going through their process and there is
53:19some resistance to changing the rules uh
53:22but I think it's likely that that law
53:24schools will be test optional in the
53:27midterm future medical schools not so
53:30much at least not
53:32yet well we'll look and see what you
53:35know what the future holds and and you
53:38know it's it I think of anything in
53:41education or in business is just being
53:45analytical and looking at it with a
53:49critical lens you know you don't want to
53:51accept everything on one side or the
53:53other just look at it from a very
53:55critical perspective and then use that
53:58to draw a conclusion so um so we're
54:02looking forward to what we you know what
54:05the future holds and more articles I put
54:08links and I'll put more links in the
54:10show notes when I publish this on my
54:12website so that people have access to
54:15other resources I put the link for merit
54:18awards Miss realities and barrier to
54:20access so that people have access to
54:23that what other last words of advice
54:26would you have for counselors working
54:28with students and parents well my my
54:30first words are thank you because as I
54:34said we know you're you're the people
54:36who are forced to work for free or for
54:38minimum wages to do the testing
54:41company's business to
54:43help fulfill their coffers and takes
54:46your time away in many cases from from
54:49the real work that you need to do to
54:50help kids uh but you know make sure that
54:54that you're
54:56the students you counsel are aware of
54:59all their options and take advantage of
55:02them it it it is really a new era in
55:05which test scores test scores never
55:08played the the role that people thought
55:10they did and now they're even less
55:12important particularly at at you know a
55:15number of you know the more Progressive
55:18institutions take encourage your kids
55:21not to waste time on on test prep and
55:25spend it building having a rich academic
55:29and outou of school life as teenagers
55:32because that's what admissions offices
55:34say they want to see um and everybody
55:37will be better off for it the students
55:40the institutions and Society if we build
55:44you know a a broader range of of talents
55:47in our our next
55:49Generation I I love that I think that
55:53that is very very true and and it does
55:57reflect the perspective that our
55:58industry has for the most part you know
56:00from a counseling perspective it's
56:03sometimes hard to convince parents of
56:05that or administrators of that so having
56:08your voice to be able to share that is
56:11is very powerful too BM so thank
56:14you well thank you for today thank you
56:17for everyone being here today um it's
56:19been a great way to start our new year
56:23and as always this will be posted on
56:27Cindy mcdonald.com so that you can view
56:31the interview and see all the show notes
56:34as well and Bob again thank you for your
56:36time and thank you for your
56:38dedication and well thank you C and
56:41thanks again to all the counselors who
56:43participated it's great well thank you
56:46and everyone keep watching we'll be back
56:49in two weeks on January 19th I have
56:52Ellen from Rebel creative and we're
56:54going to talk about marketing and
56:56branding and do a branding checklist and
56:58some things like that and just be
57:00watching for my emails and um and I love
57:03getting your emails as well so have a
57:06good I should say the same thing Bob
57:07schaer fairtest.org if you have any
57:09questions or need any help glad to help
57:12you okay and I'll I'll publish that as
57:14well so if you have questions um reach
57:16out to fairest and reach out to Bob so
57:20have a great weekend everyone have a
57:22great weekend Bob thank you very much
57:24thank you all
57:29bye-bye

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