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Is Peace in Sudan Still Possible? Putting Civilians at the Center of the Process — Transcript

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1:00Am I your next Tahani?
1:02>> Yep.
1:02>> Yep.
1:10Good afternoon everyone.
1:13It's a great pleasure to welcome you to
1:16this session
1:18on is peace still possible in Sudan?
1:22[sighs]
1:23Spoiler alert, the answer has to be yes.
1:28I'm conscious that we're gathering on
1:32the 11th of November on Armistice Day
1:35and we have
1:36the luxury in many ways of celebrating a
1:39day of peace and remembrance on the 11th
1:41of November every year
1:43and conscious that for the last several
1:45years Sudan has been
1:48remembering the cost of war every April
1:52and we do not have yet a day of peace
1:55for Sudan.
1:57I'm particularly
1:59honored to be
2:00such an august panel to discuss this
2:03topic. I'm going to very briefly
2:05introduce and we're going to dive
2:07straight into the discussion.
2:10Dr. Barham Salih, the High Commissioner
2:12for Refugees, welcome. Mo Ibrahim, Chair
2:15of the Mo Ibrahim Foundation, welcome to
2:17you, sir. David Miliband, President of
2:20the International Rescue Committee. Luca
2:23Micheli, Office of the EU Special Envoy,
2:26Chief of Staff, welcome to you.
2:28A special welcome to Tahani Abbas, human
2:32rights defender, peacemaker, and founder
2:34of the NOURA Organization for Combating
2:36Violence against women and girls. I
2:39would also note that we had invited a
2:42youth representative, Abdallah Ibrahim,
2:44from the Sudanese Youth Network for
2:47ending the war and establishing a civil
2:49democratic transition. He did not
2:51receive his visa to France, so he isn't
2:53with us today, but is with us in spirit
2:56and has shared some of his thoughts that
2:58we will weave into the discussion.
3:01The conflict in Sudan is characterized
3:04by one of the gravest humanitarian
3:06catastrophes in the world.
3:09Extraordinary levels of displacement
3:12inside the country and out,
3:14interests and direct involvement of
3:17regional and international players.
3:20And when I speak to Sudanese, I am
3:23reminded constantly that this is a war
3:25like no other.
3:27This is a war that is touching all
3:29Sudanese and is tearing at the social
3:32fabric.
3:33And it is never been more urgent to
3:35understand this great mediation dilemma
3:38that we have,
3:39that we need to end the war.
3:42We need to bring the parties, the armed
3:44actors with interests into some sort of
3:47agreement to stop the violence,
3:49but we must never lose sight that peace
3:52must be designed by, with, and for
3:57Sudanese civilians towards a democratic
4:00transition.
4:01But how do we do that?
4:04So I'm Meredith Preston McGee. I'm the
4:05Secretary General for the Global Center
4:08for Pluralism.
4:09Forgot to introduce myself.
4:11Um and I am going to kick off as we've
4:13agreed with the panel because we do want
4:15to try and take some time for questions
4:18as well. We are going to ask each of the
4:20panelists to respond to a question for
4:23about 4 minutes or so to see if we have
4:25an opportunity to have some further
4:27engagement with the uh with the
4:29audience. And we want to really start
4:31with some of the essentials. And so I'm
4:34going to begin with Tahani. Tahani, um
4:37you're very welcome to speak in Arabic.
4:38We do have Arabic interpretation on your
4:41headsets on Channel 5. Mo, of course,
4:43you are also welcome to speak in Arabic.
4:45As are you, Barham. We have many Arabic
4:47speakers on the panel.
4:49Um
4:50but Tahani, I just wanted you to start
4:52us off with what are the actions that
4:55you want to see concretely over these
4:58next 6 months to put in place a
5:02credible, civilian-driven peace process.
5:05What needs to happen now?
5:10>> Thank you very much.
5:22>> Hello and welcome everybody.
5:25In the six
5:27next months. Okay, well, 6 months seems
5:30extremely far away. It seems far away
5:33for all of Sudanese society and all of
5:36the Sudanese people. It's very [snorts]
5:38difficult to
5:416 months, even 6 days of of war
5:45is is too many and
5:50much like all people,
5:55we want war to stop.
5:59But war is not only about
6:02silencing weapons.
6:05We need uh a civilian driven uh peace
6:09process
6:11uh which completely excludes the
6:13military and armed men uh that are the
6:16cause of the conflict uh
6:19with which we are currently reckoning.
6:22So we hope
6:24that war uh will be stopped
6:28and that uh
6:30there's
6:31uh that we at least reach a ceasefire
6:33agreement
6:34uh which leads to a peace process, a
6:37civilian driven peace process
6:39and that uh women and youth can
6:42participate in this peace process.
6:46So women, youth, civilians and displaced
6:48and uh
6:50displaced peoples and refugees and I
6:52myself am a refugee uh in another
6:54African country and
6:56I hope that we can all contribute to
6:59building uh
7:01uh the future of Sudan and for for me
7:03personally six months seems like uh like
7:06too long to to start that process.
7:09Through all these years over 100,000
7:13people
7:17have been impacted.
7:19Uh over 100,000 people have died. We've
7:22had over 16,000
7:24uh rapes.
7:31We've had an
7:33extreme extremely high number of people
7:36who've been displaced.
7:39We're refugees.
7:42Our country is uh the highest source of
7:46refugees worldwide.
7:48We've had the most number of displaced
7:51people. Looking at my family uh not any
7:54one of us lives in the same place. We're
7:56all we've all been uh
7:59displaced. There are many people who are
8:01dying of hunger. We've got an economic
8:03crisis uh
8:05malnourishment crisis.
8:08Uh we don't have enough access to
8:10medication. I would say that uh life
8:13stopped two years ago,
8:15and we hope that life can start again
8:18for the Sudanese people who have a right
8:20to live in dignity, peace, and security.
8:26That is what we hope for. That is what
8:28we wish for.
8:30But
8:31again, I must say
8:33that war is not this is not an uniquely
8:36Sudanese problem. There are
8:38international actors that are involved
8:41in this conflict and that are prolonging
8:44this conflict. So what I hope is that
8:46the two
8:47stakeholders in this conflict,
8:50the Sudanese
8:52forces and
8:54the
8:56and the RSF,
8:59I hope that these
9:01state that these actors will stop being
9:03supplied with drones and military
9:05equipment. We have to be able to put
9:08pressure on these international actors
9:10to stop supplying
9:12these forces with equipment so that
9:15these killings can stop and these rapes
9:17can stop.
9:19There are millions of Sudanese people
9:21that have had to leave their homes, that
9:23have to that have had to go to foreign
9:25countries.
9:27And we also must not forget the
9:29geographical position of Sudan. We know
9:32that there are [clears throat] many
9:36resources, many natural resources
9:38including gold and other mineral
9:40deposits in Sudan. And so
9:43we this has funded in fact the war in
9:47Sudan and the international community
9:49must
9:51put pressure on all involved actors
9:54for this war to stop. And military
9:56victory is impossible.
10:00But we've seen that there's no more
10:01schools, no more jobs, no more
10:03healthcare.
10:06And this economic crisis
10:08is
10:10uh tied to the rain cycle.
10:14Uh agriculture in Sudan has uh been
10:17stopped. Uh there is simply no more
10:20agriculture happening in Sudan uh for
10:22the past three years. Thank you.
10:24>> Mo, to you to pick up on on where Tahani
10:26has um has has left off.
10:30But I do want to mention one thing from
10:31um Abdallah Ibrahim, our colleague who
10:33is unable to get his visa, that one of
10:35the things is you speak about Sudanese
10:37civilians in so many different places
10:39that one of the calls from young people
10:41is to invest in civilian consultations,
10:43that civilians need to be able to talk
10:45to one another, to engage with one
10:47another, to know one another, to deal
10:49with these difficult issues in order to
10:51be well positioned to engage in this
10:53process.
10:55So Mo, as as I turn to you, I also would
10:57be interested in your reflections on
10:59this incredibly difficult challenge of
11:02how do you create a process and
11:03ultimately an agreement that does not
11:05revert to type in Sudan with another
11:08military government. What are what kind
11:10of safeguards can this process ensure
11:13that this is genuinely a civil
11:15democratic transition?
11:30>> Yeah, thank you Mohamed Iss.
11:32Um
11:34uh
11:35let me start with uh
11:37uh
11:38just reminding people that what's
11:40happening in Sudan today is the worst
11:43humanitarian disaster in the world
11:45today.
11:47Is much more than Ukraine, much more
11:49than Gaza put together.
11:51The amount of human
11:54tragedy in Sudan.
11:56Of course, you don't read about that and
11:58you don't see about that. I mean, every
12:00morning I open newspaper, I watch the
12:03news, it is Ukraine, sometimes Gaza
12:07or West Bank.
12:08Uh Sudan
12:11uh it seems to me uh it's sad but seems
12:14to me
12:16there is different
12:17value for human beings depending on your
12:20color of skin.
12:22I think that is the conclusion you can
12:24only draw out of this.
12:26We are not all equal, are not all human
12:28beings.
12:29There's some more human than others
12:31unfortunately. So I'm just a reminder to
12:34what's happening in Sudan.
12:36All my colleagues here are involved in
12:38the humanitarian side.
12:42We work on the political sides
12:45and
12:47the problem is
12:49most of the aid, very little aid going
12:51to Sudan actually, very little.
12:54And the the
12:56very little which goes to Sudan
12:59gets stolen before it reaches the
13:02refugee camps anyway. Why? Because Sudan
13:05today is ungovernable land with so many
13:09militias. It's not only
13:12the Rapid Support Forces and the army.
13:15We have so many militias and warlords.
13:20It becoming a mess.
13:23And I wrote an article recently in the
13:25Financial Times and I said the title of
13:28the article was what happens in Sudan
13:31will not stay in Sudan.
13:32Sudan is going to stabilize
13:35destabilize all the country around it.
13:37We have seven countries around us.
13:40And we will stabilize all that. We can
13:42see the problem is starting between
13:45Eritrea and Ethiopia. We see the problem
13:49in Chad. CR AR the the Central African
13:53Republic already has a problem in the
13:57north with Sudanese forces there.
14:00So
14:01you look at the map and you see there is
14:04an arc of ungovernable land extending
14:08from the Atlantic, from the Sahel all
14:11the way to Red Sea.
14:14This is an area much larger than Europe.
14:18And to my European friends, I mean, you
14:21guys
14:22had a problem with few
14:25people from Afghanistan or from Syria
14:28who came as immigrants.
14:30You wait for the tsunami coming to you.
14:33Please wake up.
14:35Africa is only 10 11 miles away from
14:38Europe.
14:39So that concerns Europe. The people
14:42concerned about the freedom
14:45of traffic, the routes.
14:47Red Sea now is very critical, especially
14:51the problem on Hormuz. Look at the Red
14:54Sea
14:55and see what's happening now from Sudan
14:57all the way down to Somalia.
15:00That is the security of the trade and
15:03our friends in Europe and US are really
15:06asleep.
15:08They are not looking at this service
15:10stuff. They're so busy trying to make
15:12money or whatever. Anyway,
15:14this is the scale of the problem.
15:16Now,
15:19it is
15:20is essential and very important to stop
15:23the war
15:25before even we can deliver human
15:28assistance because it doesn't reach
15:30people.
15:31We need to stop the war. This war now is
15:34in the fourth year.
15:36People need to understand that
15:38and we have
15:4011 countries,
15:4211 countries supplying weapons, drones
15:47to
15:48the two sides fighting there. And we ask
15:51those people, do you realize that these
15:54drones and these bullets are killing our
15:56people?
15:57What you guys are doing? You crazy? What
16:00is that?
16:0111 countries
16:04from
16:05Turkey to Iran, to the Emirates, to
16:07Saudi Arabia, to Egypt, to Pakistan
16:11even, Russia.
16:13All those guys, what you guys doing?
16:15And everybody proclaim love to Sudanese
16:19people.
16:20Okay, send us flowers,
16:23not bullets.
16:24And
16:25we the only way to move forward
16:28is to take a firm stance.
16:32We need all these countries to stop
16:35supplying weapons to all parties in
16:38Sudan. That's absolutely clear.
16:41And that should be the demand put on the
16:43table. And it's not just, oh please try
16:46to stop the war every week. All these
16:48quartet they
16:50we have so many people
16:53talking about Sudan in the international
16:55stage. So many meetings, UN,
16:59African Union, the quartet, the and all
17:01the ties end up bleeding. Please stop
17:04the war. Sorry, please doesn't work.
17:07You need first
17:09to dry the supply of weapons.
17:12Second,
17:13to dry the supply of goods
17:17which is financing the war, the gold.
17:20Both sides are extracting gold illegally
17:23to finance the war. That should be
17:26labeled blood gold. You remember black
17:29diamonds?
17:30That should be blood gold. It should be
17:33black gum, the Arabic gum, very
17:35essential. That should be
17:38you know, that should be really blood
17:41goods. That has to be stopped.
17:43And that is what we working on and that
17:46is what we want.
17:47The voice of civil society to rise to
17:50say a stop
17:52fueling the war. A stop trading
17:56in the goods of war. That is the only
17:59way to enable us to help
18:01the civilian. We have to be very very
18:04clear about that.
18:05>> Thank [clears throat] you.
18:06>> Thank you and I think both you and and
18:08Tahani
18:09[applause]
18:10have made such a powerful point of how
18:12you need to ring fence this conflict
18:15that is being so deeply supplied from
18:17outside. And so as we think about that,
18:20I want Luca to turn to you as a member
18:23obviously of the European Union, but as
18:25part of the quintet process, where
18:27you're seeking to build the political
18:29process. You're obviously coordinating
18:32with the Quad around questions of the
18:34ceasefire and some of the questions that
18:36both Mo and Tahani have raised. So how
18:39do you see this quintet process also
18:41coming up in the context that's just
18:43been described and ensuring that it does
18:46genuinely have Sudanese leadership?
18:49>> Thank you, Meredith. And I'm of course
18:50very honored to speak after our Sudanese
18:53friends here and also to sit next to our
18:55humanitarian leaders that are doing an
18:57outstanding job and we salute you for
19:00for what you do on the ground. What I
19:01can offer now is to really share a
19:03little bit of the diplomatic side
19:06um because
19:08the situation in Sudan is dire.
19:10We can't disagree with that at all.
19:13But in the diplomatic space also a lot
19:15has happened.
19:16And uh I think you've very well
19:19described the complexity of the matter.
19:22Both of the actors within, but also on
19:23the actors on the outside of Sudan,
19:26surrounding them, but also in the wider
19:28in the wider region.
19:29So yes, we see each other trapped in a
19:32lot of these big meetings by the UN,
19:34hosted by us, by others.
19:36But
19:37we are getting somewhere where we can
19:39think about a process.
19:41And uh if I compare where we are today
19:43and where we were 14 months ago, there's
19:45a difference.
19:46And I think the theme, Meredith, that
19:49you also put put here with with the
19:51Armistice Day is very important because
19:52we need to think about what we can do
19:54and not only what we cannot do and what
19:56needs to stop.
19:58As diplomatic actor diplomatic actors,
20:00we can do three things. We can convene,
20:02we can align, and we can create new
20:04impulses.
20:06And we've tried that over the last few
20:08months
20:09with high energy. Number one, on the
20:11convening piece, Tahani, you are also
20:13very much a part of of the
20:15process that we call the quintet.
20:18It's an extraordinary situation that we
20:20deal with, but but also took
20:21extraordinary measures. For the first
20:23time, um the five big multilateral
20:25regional organizations, the UN, the EU,
20:28the African Union, IGAD, and the League
20:29of Arab States have teamed up
20:32and run a facilitation process together.
20:35This has never happened.
20:37And I can tell you from the inside that
20:38it's it's it's a huge challenge, but
20:41it's also quite energizing because uh we
20:43have done a lot already.
20:45Um we've started uh around a year ago.
20:48We've briefed the Security Council
20:49twice. We've held a series of
20:51consultations, the biggest one in the
20:53Berlin Conference where we brought
20:54together really most of the big civilian
20:56blocks.
20:58But we didn't stop there.
21:00Um we had dedicated consultations for
21:02the for the youth groups, for the women
21:03group. Tahani, you were you are also
21:05part of them. Um and we will continue.
21:09Um this is a process and this will take
21:11time because we are dealing with with
21:13hundreds of groups.
21:15And we have our technical team between
21:17the five multilaterals meeting twice
21:19every week to coordinate, to plan, but
21:21also to pass the messages to the
21:23outside.
21:24Um and
21:26this is maybe where I go to the second
21:28part, the con uh the aligning.
21:30Yes, we have now two different tracks.
21:32We have the security track with the Quad
21:34with its own challenges, and we have the
21:35civilian track with the Quintet with our
21:37own challenges, but we speak.
21:39We try to be better. We try to improve
21:41and uh and and to get somewhere.
21:44We've met now a few times, the first
21:46time at the General Assembly between the
21:48Quint and the Quad, and that was quite
21:49the milestone for us because we can
21:51learn from each other. We can also try
21:53to teach each or show each other a bit
21:55of the lessons that we've picked up
21:57along the way.
21:58And yes, this is the third point. We
22:00need to constantly be creative about the
22:02new impulses because uh I I like the
22:04framing that you use in the beginning.
22:06We are in this mediation dilemma. You
22:07know, we have to deal with complexity,
22:10be broad, but also be extremely
22:12specific.
22:13And uh the the challenge uh for the
22:16civilian track
22:17um
22:18is of course to bring everybody in one
22:21uh and to connect the inside and the
22:22outside. The Quintet has done something
22:24for the first time in September, which
22:26is on the principles level, the on the
22:28very high level for these five
22:29multilateral organizations to travel to
22:31Sudan together
22:33and meet the authorities there.
22:35Also meet the national dialogue
22:36committee that is in there, but of
22:38course we are also traveling outside and
22:41we engage those initiatives on the
22:42outside and we are trying to connect the
22:44dots and our message to them is clear.
22:46We have a good offices mission.
22:48We want to facilitate, we want to be a
22:49platform, we want to be a connector and
22:51a bridge builder.
22:53At the end the Sudanese are in the steer
22:54behind the steering wheel.
22:56They're discussing the how and they're
22:57discussing the what. We are just
22:59providing the platform. So
23:02we have to be innovative and we have to
23:03keep talking, but
23:05maybe this is a little bit of a glimmer
23:07of hope because I I I tend to agree our
23:09publics are not as consumed by this as
23:12the diplomats, but we're not fully
23:14asleep.
23:16>> Luca, thank you and it's nice to have a
23:18moment of hope within that and I I find
23:20with the complexity of processes such as
23:22this, we also have to find opportunities
23:24wherever they are while still respecting
23:28that some pieces of processes need their
23:30own space. And so for that I want to
23:33turn David to you on the humanitarian
23:36situation and the humanitarian response
23:39because we don't we always want to be
23:41clear that the humanitarian response is
23:44a separate space from the political, but
23:47at the same time protection of
23:48civilians, humanitarian access, engaging
23:51populations on the ground will
23:54contribute to peace over time in Sudan.
23:57It isn't just a response question, it is
23:59a question of the humanitarian situation
24:01being a building block for Sudanese
24:04social fabric in the future. So much of
24:07the work of the emergency response rooms
24:08and others is continuing to build social
24:11fabric in in Sudan in this moment. So
24:14would be interested in your reflections
24:16on how the humanitarian response
24:18connects with with the issues that have
24:21been outlined by the other panelists.
24:23>> Thanks very much, Scream. Honor to be on
24:25this
24:26panel and a lot of a lot good things
24:28have been
24:29said.
24:30Um, I'm really speaking on behalf of 480
24:34humanitarian aid workers who are working
24:37um in Tawila and El Fasher in the West,
24:41in Khartoum and towards Port Sudan and
24:44currently in Kordofans and El Obeid.
24:47And I think they'd want me to say three
24:49things to you.
24:52First of all, it's true that
24:53humanitarian work
24:55is not political.
24:57It's neutral, it's independent, it's
24:59impartial.
25:00But every humanitarian emergency is a
25:03political emergency.
25:05And we shouldn't use
25:07the commitment to
25:11neutrality and independence
25:14as an excuse for failing to speak truth
25:17to power when it comes to political
25:19failure.
25:21And while it's true that
25:26Sudan is uniquely bad in various ways,
25:29it's certainly the largest crisis, we
25:31also have to recognize it's a symptom of
25:33a syndrome.
25:35It's a symptom of a syndrome in which
25:36hard power is unchallenged
25:40and diplomacy is in retreat.
25:43It's a symptom of a situation where the
25:45war economy drives the fighting
25:49far with far more strength than
25:51diplomacy drives the peace drive. It's a
25:54situation in which
25:56civilians are dealt out of the game, far
25:59from being dealt
26:00into the game. And the Sudanese social
26:03fabric, which you referred to, is
26:05actually amazingly strong.
26:07That why
26:08fewer people haven't died. The first
26:10thing we did
26:11in April 2023 was support send our
26:14funding to the emergency response rooms.
26:18So let's understand the political
26:19dynamic here. The scales between
26:21diplomacy to end the war and fighting to
26:24continue war are tipped
26:26way towards continuing
26:29the the
26:30That why it going on. That's why it
26:32looks like a forever war in uh
26:35Sudan. And the only thing I'd add to
26:37what you said, Luca, your three elements
26:39of diplomacy, yes, but the fourth
26:42element, leverage, pressure,
26:45informal pressure of shame,
26:48formal pressure
26:50of leverage, unless that's there
26:53someone once said um
27:00diplomacy without power is like music
27:03without instruments.
27:05I think it was Frederick the Great
27:06actually.
27:08So let's not lose the dimension of
27:09leverage and power point point one I
27:12think is important.
27:13Point two
27:16the most obvious way in which politics
27:18interferes with humanitarian work is the
27:20denial of access. This is something
27:22that's been raised a lot. I want to make
27:25the point that in most parts of Ukraine
27:27of
27:28Sudan today
27:30lack of access is not the problem.
27:33I mean the problem for people in Tawila
27:35is not that aid workers can't reach
27:37them, although it would help to have the
27:38UN humanitarian air service rather than
27:41just ground-based transport. The problem
27:44is that the effort is massively below,
27:47the funding and the effort is massively
27:49below what is needed. We don't have the
27:51excuse that we can't reach people in
27:53Tawila. There are 900,000 people there,
27:56but there's
27:58massively in the easy things are not
28:00being done.
28:01And I think we have to therefore
28:03recognize that
28:04a further way in which the situation in
28:06Sudan is a symptom of global politics is
28:08that when you slash the global
28:10humanitarian aid budget by 50% and I'm
28:13sorry to say this but the the the the
28:16French aid budget is falling, the German
28:18aid budget is falling, the British aid
28:20budget is falling, the American aid
28:22budget has been decimated.
28:25It's not an accident that you end up
28:27with the disastrous um situation where
28:30the lack of humanitarian aid
28:33actually it it almost becomes an engine
28:35of further crisis and instability. So,
28:37maybe that begins to get to
28:40um
28:42to to your question that
28:43we're actually incubating the the the
28:47the failure to mitigate suffering is
28:48incubating further instability
28:53down down the road.
28:55Now, the third and um
28:57final thing that I think it's important
28:59to to to flag
29:01is that there are a lot of villains in
29:04this
29:06conflict. As Mo said very rightly, every
29:10so-called civil war, most of the
29:12so-called civil wars today are
29:13internationalized.
29:16Civil war sounds like oh neighbors are
29:18fighting with neighbors. This conflict
29:20did not start with neighbors fighting
29:21with neighbors, and it's still not
29:23neighbors fighting with neighbors.
29:25It's an instrumentalized conflict for
29:27power, for resources, for geopolitics,
29:30and you're absolutely right to make the
29:31point that this is linked to the wider
29:33geopolitics of the
29:35of the Red Sea.
29:36And
29:37all those international actors who are
29:39sponsoring the conflict, this is in
29:41their top two, three, or four foreign
29:43policy priorities.
29:45For those who are trying to stop the
29:46conflict, it's not in the top 10
29:48priorities.
29:50And it's that mismatch of political heft
29:52and power that explains the mess that
29:55we're in.
29:56And I think that we've got a job as
29:58civil society. This is a forum that
29:59brings together
30:01governments obviously
30:03private sector, civil society. We've got
30:05a job as civil society to challenge
30:08ourselves. Where is the civil society
30:11response equivalent to 20 years ago?
30:14It it doesn't exist at the moment, and I
30:16think that's the challenge that we've
30:18got to put to ourselves. We're an
30:19operational agency. We're focusing on
30:21those 480 people, but we're dependent on
30:24a wider politics, and we've got to speak
30:26the truth about what's going on on the
30:27ground if we're to affect it without
30:29becoming politicized ourselves.
30:31>> David, thank you so much, and I would
30:33add one other statistic to your note on
30:36humanitarian funding.
30:38Um that last year globally we spent 2.9
30:40trillion dollars on military and defense
30:42spending and this year we're on track to
30:44spend six trillion dollars. Last year we
30:47spent 15 billion on making peace. One
30:50half of 1% it will become infinitesimal
30:53this year. So we do have to get serious
30:56on these issues.
30:57Um High Commissioner Barham if I may I
31:00would like to bring you in also
31:02so often the voices of the displaced are
31:05the hardest to reach a peace table. So
31:08how do you ensure that displaced
31:10populations are engaged in these
31:12processes of peace and perhaps maybe you
31:14want to um sort of add from your
31:16perspective to some of the insights that
31:18have been shared by the panelists.
31:20>> Thank you so very much and this is
31:24probably
31:26the most humanitarian
31:29crisis that the world is faced with
31:31today.
31:32It's for sure is the largest
31:34displacement crisis.
31:36And talking about the voices of
31:38displaced people I can relate to you one
31:41of my early experiences uh
31:43earlier this year
31:45I was in Adré on the
31:48uh
31:49Chad Sudanese border and I was watching
31:52the stream
31:54of humanity crossing the border.
31:57Families
31:58mostly women and girls
32:01fleeing the carnage
32:03and
32:05crossing the border. That border meant
32:08a difference between life and death for
32:10so many.
32:12And I can really not describe the
32:16horrors that was being related
32:19especially the women and girls that they
32:21were suffering.
32:23I was also talking to people
32:26who were university lecturers
32:29doctors lawyers in one case a judge
32:33not to mention countless others young
32:36and old
32:37who were basically
32:39talking about a country that they have
32:41been driven from.
32:43The little I know about the history of
32:44Sudan and I was talking to Mo before
32:46this panel.
32:48This is a rich country for agriculture,
32:50natural resources, also for human
32:52talent.
32:54It's only when military
32:58took over power and disrupted
33:01what was for a while
33:03appear to be a promising
33:06prospects for that country.
33:07So coming back to the fundamental
33:10question that you have posed, we do have
33:12a
33:13horrendous humanitarian crisis.
33:16We need to be there to provide
33:17assistance for the people who need it
33:20and I have to admit
33:22with
33:24I would say embarrassment
33:26and shame
33:27that what is available in order to deal
33:30with the humanitarian needs is nowhere
33:32near in the case of UNHCR.
33:35Our estimate we need a minimum of 300
33:39million dollars in order to provide
33:41protection and assistance to the people
33:44we need to reach.
33:46We're only able to get one third of that
33:48and I'm sure it's through IRC and other
33:51humanitarian agencies and if we were to
33:53talk about
33:55prospects of famine given that the
33:57agricultural season has failed this year
33:59as well, probably we're still talking
34:02about even a greater.
34:04But
34:06we need to understand there is no
34:08humanitarian solution to a humanitarian
34:10problem.
34:12These people did not leave their homes
34:15because they wanted to. They were forced
34:17out because of the greed,
34:19because of the
34:21uh
34:22criminality
34:24of
34:25uh competition for power, resources, you
34:28name it, whatever the reasons are. There
34:30needs to be a political solution
34:32and that will have to start
34:35with a ceasefire, call it a humanitarian
34:37ceasefire in order to give a reprieve, a
34:41space to having a process that can
34:43ultimately hopefully lead to a civilian
34:46government. Remember,
34:49there was a civilian government that was
34:50thrown out by
34:53allies who then became parties to this
34:56horrendous so-called civil war. It's
34:58There is nothing civil about this war.
35:00So I can only attest
35:03to what you have mentioned. There needs
35:05to be
35:07renewed international pressure to really
35:09bring this conflict to an end. And I
35:11agree, by the way, with No. I was in
35:13Mali
35:14and Burkina Faso couple of months ago.
35:17And when you look at Chad, and we also
35:19when you look at Ethiopia
35:21and the dynamics with
35:23this war in Sudan,
35:27it's a horrendous humanitarian crisis
35:30and it should really
35:31embarrass and shame us all in the
35:34international community that this has
35:36been allowed to continue the way it has
35:38been.
35:39But also let's talk about security,
35:41the impact that it has, the prospects in
35:45Ethiopia, the prospects in Chad, which
35:48has been very generous hosting large
35:50numbers of refugees itself
35:53facing
35:55difficult
35:57crises of resources and economic
36:00challenges and you name it. So and when
36:02you
36:03superimpose that on the rise of
36:05extremism
36:08from mutations of ISIS, mutations of
36:12Al-Qaeda from the Sahel all the way to
36:15the
36:17Indian Ocean.
36:18And if I may also just to complicate the
36:21story a bit further, what is happening
36:23in Yemen and the implications, these are
36:25all,
36:27you know.
36:28And by the way,
36:30Europe, for that matter, the United
36:32States cannot say these are far away
36:35issues.
36:37If we need to be motivated by the moral
36:40humanitarian concerns and deliver,
36:43but also
36:44really from a security and national
36:46interest point of view, this war has
36:48gone on for far too long.
36:50And
36:52the voices of Sudan, the Sudanese people
36:55that many of us have met across the
36:58diaspora in these refugee camps. These
37:01are people who have left not left their
37:04homes because they were poor and they
37:05were destitute. They were
37:07forced out there, people with talent,
37:10agency, and they need to be part of the
37:12solution and there can be no solution
37:15without them being part of it.
37:16>> Thank you. And at the center of that of
37:19that solution. And I think [applause]
37:22you really rightly also demonstrate that
37:25Sudan is existential for all of us. It
37:27isn't just existential for Sudanese and
37:30this rise in the priority is absolutely
37:33urgent. We had agreed as a panel that we
37:35did want some audience participation.
37:38We are also far too pressed for time as
37:40we always are at the forum. So what I
37:42would like to do is invite two questions
37:45with a caveat. You're allowed 30 seconds
37:48to ask a question, not commentary, and
37:50back to the panel and we'll take
37:52responses to a couple of audience
37:54questions as we conclude. So I am
37:57assuming our extraordinary organizers
37:59have
38:00microphones that are going around and we
38:03will find let's try to take Oh, we've
38:05got a lot on this side, so we'll take
38:06two questions over here. I see Haley in
38:09the blue the front and then right behind
38:11her. I'm sorry, I don't know the
38:12gentleman's name, but let's start with
38:13Haley.
38:14>> Hi, I'm Haley Davidson from Crisis
38:16Action. You all talked about the the
38:18crucial importance of stopping the flow
38:20of arms and that are fueling the
38:21atrocities in Sudan.
38:23What leverage can the international
38:26community be using with those external
38:28actors who continue to to supply arms?
38:31And given that this crisis has to be top
38:35of all very high on the priority list of
38:37the incoming Secretary General,
38:39can the UN afford a Secretary General
38:41who is coming from a government who is
38:43one of the 11 that was named by Mo um
38:46supplying arms and denying the findings
38:48of the UN um independent expert reports.
38:52>> Thank you so much. There's a gentleman
38:53who had his hand up just behind you.
38:55I'll take that question and then we'll
38:56revert back to the panel for closing.
38:58>> And Nick Kristof from the New York
39:00Times, just a amplification of that.
39:03You know, how can we possibly take
39:05seriously the diplomatic efforts of
39:07major powers when they are
39:09simultaneously
39:10discussing the appointment of an SG who
39:14for the past few years has been the
39:16prime apologist for the arms flow to one
39:19of those actors.
39:21>> Thank you, Nick. Um excellent
39:24uncomfortable questions for the panel at
39:25the end. We have six minutes. So what
39:27I'm going to do is we're going to run
39:28down um the panel get give everybody
39:30just a minute to respond. And my last
39:33piece within this is I want you to be
39:35able to end us someone has to end us on
39:39a note of hope because the question is
39:41is peace still possible and it has to
39:43be. So let's wrestle with these tough
39:45questions, but we need a way forward. Um
39:49Tahani, may I start with you?
39:51Do you want to respond or do you want to
39:53leave this to the gentleman?
39:55You want to leave it to the gentleman.
39:56Wise woman. Mo?
40:00Ooh. You're not getting answers to your
40:02questions, gentlemen.
40:04Dr. Sallah? David, please.
40:07>> I think leveraging
40:09the dynamics of this war
40:11as uh
40:13David has said, diplomacy without
40:17uh enforcement
40:19and
40:20it just won't deliver.
40:22There is a lot of money being made out
40:24of this and you simply cannot dissuade
40:28some of these actors out of the
40:31uh ill-gotten gains by just being nice.
40:34Seriously.
40:35And furthermore,
40:36I think what you have here, you have
40:38horrendous war crimes that have been
40:40committed.
40:41The notion of impunity for people to get
40:44away with the terrible crimes that have
40:46been committed is really bad bad omen
40:49for
40:50not just Sudan, for the world at large.
40:53So I think
40:55Sudan also, by the way, has a track
40:57record in that regard. The war in Darfur
40:59has led to
41:01war crime tribunals that have ended up
41:03with many behind bars and
41:07that I believe needs to be pursued.
41:10And
41:13the world really needs to come together
41:15to prevent supply of arms and really
41:19call
41:20parties that sustain this war
41:23to task because continuing this is just
41:27not
41:28morally, politically,
41:30but also from a security point of view
41:32to the world at large.
41:34>> Thank you. Um David, can I ask you and
41:37then Luke, I'll give you the last word.
41:39>> Um
41:41I think first of all, I just want to
41:42make a comment on the earlier part of
41:44the discussion.
41:46Obviously,
41:47ending the war is critical, but in
41:49significant parts of the country
41:51the war has ended,
41:54but
41:55the
41:56violence perpetrated against civilians
41:59is a continuing scar on their lives.
42:04And the reality is that we have a
42:06divided Sudan at the moment.
42:08We have a divided not in two ways
42:11because Mo is absolutely right about
42:12this. There are many dimensions to the
42:14division and we have part of Sudan where
42:16fighting is rampant today.
42:19So we've got to be we've got to
42:20understand that we're dealing with
42:22different sets of issues, political and
42:24humanitarian, in different parts of the
42:26country.
42:27Second point,
42:29every one of the 11 sponsors of
42:31different parties to the conflict has
42:34major relations with
42:36powers around the world. The question is
42:38whether those
42:40relations are willing to be whether
42:41those powers are willing to leverage the
42:43relations they have.
42:45So it's a choice, not a
42:48fate
42:49as to whether or not that leverage is
42:52used. And when I said earlier that
42:55[snorts] for those who sponsoring the
42:56conflict this is in the top three or
42:58four, but for those who are seeking
43:00saying they want a resolution it's not
43:02in the top 10, that is the nature of the
43:05that that's the nature of the problem.
43:07I'm not going to get drawn into who
43:08should be the UN Secretary General.
43:10We're a humanitarian agency. We can't
43:12part of not getting involved in politics
43:14as you don't you don't pick sides. What
43:16I would say is that we need an activist
43:19determined Secretary General of the UN
43:22who doesn't mind risking failure in
43:24order to try and achieve success.
43:26And I don't mind if the UN Secretary
43:28General tries five times and fails. What
43:30I mind is if they don't try five times
43:32or 50 times.
43:33And so I think for all of us who look to
43:35the UN as the most legitimate source of
43:38authority, we have to be um we have to
43:41be challenging those who are um in
43:45positions of authority to do more. And I
43:47just want to make the sorry to go on,
43:48but I just want to make one more point.
43:50There was remember the UN at some level
43:53is only as strong as its member states
43:54allow it to be.
43:56And there was a resolution as it happens
43:58it was sponsored by the UK, but I'm not
43:59saying it for these reasons. A
44:01resolution on Sudan was vetoed in the
44:04Security Council. There is a proposal
44:06with now the support of 128 countries is
44:08led by France and Mexico to suspend the
44:12veto in the UN in cases of mass atrocity
44:15of which Sudan would be an obvious
44:17example. And one of the concerns I have
44:20is that the granular nature of the
44:23disaster in Sudan is divorced from
44:26the institutional politics. This is a
44:28classic example where that divorce
44:31causes more suffering. And lots of
44:33people talk about UN reform and say it's
44:35impossible because it has to be
44:36comprehensive. No, this is actually a
44:39um a doable reform where there's
44:41massively insufficient pressure on the
44:44five veto holders to suspend the veto in
44:46these specific cases of mass atrocity
44:49and I'd like to see that taken forward.
44:50>> David, thank you. I'm going to give Luca
44:52a chance to respond and then I 'm going
44:53to Mohan and Tahani our Sudanese
44:55colleagues the last word. Luca, did you
44:57want to add in?
44:59>> Yes, thank you. I mean you ask a very
45:00important question which is that what
45:02after these 45 minutes what what is it
45:05that we can take home and what we can
45:07do?
45:08And we hear loud and clear from the
45:10civilian consultations that we've been
45:11running since the first week of the war.
45:14The cries that we've also now heard from
45:16from the audience but also from the from
45:18the panelists stop stop the fighting,
45:20stop the flow flow of arms
45:22and negotiate. But of course the reality
45:24is also that those that are involved in
45:26the war will also need to be part of the
45:28discussion.
45:30You don't negotiate with your friends,
45:32you negotiate with your enemies. And so
45:34the formats that exist now
45:36they need to be used but
45:38evidently they need to be used more
45:39effectively and different.
45:41But what gives me hope
45:43is to be in these civilian consultations
45:44and to see that in the fourth year of
45:46the war people like Tahani, people like
45:49Mohan are still pushing on these lines
45:52and we can see on the diplomatic side
45:55there's pressure.
45:57But there's also a discussion about what
45:59has not worked.
46:00And there's a discussion about how we
46:02can design
46:04and and improve the coordination which
46:06will mean also increase of pressure. It
46:09is not going to be easy because also
46:10these same 11 countries that you
46:13referenced they're
46:15they're pulling in different directions.
46:16And yes, there's a lot of
46:18partners that that have stakes and
46:20interest in Sudan.
46:22So we need to be smart and we need to be
46:25aligned.
46:26>> Luca, thank you. Mohan, I'll turn to you
46:28and then I'm going to give Tahani the
46:29last word.
46:30>> I I I I really appreciate what our
46:33friends in Europe trying to do. It's a
46:36very nice people.
46:37The problem is they lack backbone.
46:40You know, we we
46:43we need some more assertion
46:45really
46:47to stop this war people need to call out
46:50the guys. I haven't heard any European
46:53leader calling out any of those 11
46:55countries say stop that.
46:58This is criminal, what you are doing.
47:01This is a crime against humanity and we
47:04have to take action against you.
47:06It is sad that only now hope is really
47:09Donald Trump. For all his faults, at
47:12least he has a backbone.
47:14Yeah?
47:15He can stand up and so I told Mossad
47:18Bonus, you know,
47:20please get your guy to do this if he
47:23wants
47:24a Nobel Prize.
47:26Stop the war in Sudan. That gets you a
47:28Nobel Prize.
47:29Okay?
47:31Don't go to war in Iran. Stop the war in
47:33Sudan. Then you have the right to ask
47:35for a Nobel peace prize. But we need
47:38action, people to stand up and say what
47:40is happening there is criminal.
47:43Did Europe do any of that stuff? No.
47:47You only talk, talk, let us persuade the
47:50people.
47:51All those generals, we need sanction. We
47:54need sticks and carrots.
47:56All these generals, we know where this
47:59money is. This is about money.
48:01This is about money and power. Let's be
48:03clear.
48:04The money is in
48:06the Gulf states.
48:08The money is in Turkey, the money in
48:10Malaysia. These are the three areas you
48:12have their money.
48:14The Americans know exactly the account
48:16of each one of them. We said, okay guys,
48:19we're going to take your money,
48:21your family's money.
48:23Either you stop or we're going to do
48:24that. Oh but oh no, we have sanctions.
48:26What does it mean you have sanctions?
48:28You need to have teeth.
48:30And by the way, crimes against humanity,
48:34this has not a statutory limit.
48:38We'll go after you, 10 years, 20 years,
48:4030 years, we're going to go after you.
48:42This should be the sticks
48:43put down clearly for all the generals.
48:46And we need to put the carrots. If you
48:48put down your arm, we'll give you safe
48:51exit. No problem. Go and enjoy your
48:53money. Put down your arm and go out.
48:56That how we need to act.
48:59And unfortunately, I hear a lot of nice
49:01words, but no action.
49:03I'm sorry.
49:05>> Mo, thank you.
49:09We are over time, but I know you're all
49:11going to forgive us. And so Tahani, I'm
49:13going to give you the last word before
49:15we conclude.
49:21>> Thank you.
49:23I I'm [clears throat] fully in agreement
49:26with everything that's been said so far
49:28with what my colleague has said. Mo
49:31What Mo has said, and we know that many
49:33states are
49:36giving humanitarian support on one hand
49:39and
49:41arms on the other. So
49:43as Sudanese activists, we
49:47are
49:49we know that
49:51peace in Sudan represents peace in the
49:54whole world as well.
49:56Sudan is at a crossroads
50:00by its geographical position. And so the
50:03international community must be ashamed
50:07of
50:08allowing the
50:12allowing the RSF and the Sudanese army
50:16to be furnished with
50:18weapons and even with fighters.
50:21They must be ashamed because that money
50:26is used to rape women, to kill
50:28civilians, to displace thousands of
50:30people
50:32from their homes. And we heard
50:36what's happening
50:38on the border with Chad
50:41and Addis Ababa
50:43in Egypt. We have millions of Sudanese
50:47refugees that are living in abhorrent
50:49conditions.
50:54It's
50:55a shame.
50:57It should be a shame for these countries
51:00that are
51:01feeding this war. And history will
51:04remember.
51:08Historians will remember
51:11this shame
51:13for these countries that are feeding
51:15this war,
51:17that are
51:19killing so many of our loved ones.
51:25We know that
51:27if this war was only about these two
51:30generals that are fighting each other,
51:33it would be much different. But there
51:34are so many countries that are
51:37allowing this war to continue and
51:39feeding it. So
51:41to all people who love peace, you have
51:45to speak up. You have to put pressure on
51:47all these actors to put an end to this
51:49war. And last thing, us Sudanese women,
51:52we
51:54have shown so much courage and
51:56resilience. Women and girls in Sudan
51:59have shown
52:00courage and they've shown this
52:02resilience. And that is a good thing.
52:05However,
52:07we have no political support for the
52:09Sudanese people.
52:11I'd like to have
52:14a young Sudanese person here,
52:17but he wasn't able to get his visa
52:21for France.
52:23So that is
52:25that is a perfect symbol of what is
52:28happening here.
52:30You are allowing the rape and the murder
52:33of Sudanese people, of Sudanese girls
52:36and women that are ending up in slave
52:38markets in neighboring countries.
52:42There are thousands of such cases
52:45of Sudanese women that are enslaved in
52:48neighboring countries. And so
52:50free voices in each country must support
52:54peace in Sudan. There must be pressure
52:57on every government for governments to
52:59speak up and to support peace in Sudan.
53:01We know that many countries are
53:03supporting both sides in this war, and
53:06if it was only about these two generals,
53:08it would have ended long ago. We know
53:10this war is being fed
53:13by countries that are supplying weapons,
53:15equipment,
53:17fuel, and
53:19history will remember the shame of these
53:22people, of all these people that are
53:24supporting either the RSF or the
53:27Sudanese army, and that has allowed for
53:30so many people to be displaced, for so
53:32many refugees
53:34to be scattered across the whole world.
53:38So you have to support political
53:40processes in Sudan.
53:43There are many initiatives. There's the
53:46quintet, the quad.
53:48There's initiatives from neighboring
53:50countries.
53:51And so many
53:54peace initiatives. However,
53:57this
53:59peace must come from the Sudanese people
54:01themselves.
54:02So
54:03we hope that
54:06a
54:09a true civil society can emerge in
54:11Sudan.
54:16That the rule of law may come back to
54:18Sudan,
54:20and this will contribute to peace and
54:22stability in the whole world.
54:25The Sudanese people have been scattered
54:27across the whole world, but once peace
54:29comes back,
54:31we will be able to come back. And
54:35I believe that establishing peace in
54:37Sudan will contribute to peace in the
54:40whole world. So
54:42the international community must wake
54:44up. This is the largest humanitarian
54:47crisis in the world. We hope that
54:50efforts from activists
54:52and from all lovers of peace will come
54:56to fruition.
54:59Please
55:00put pressure on your governments, on
55:02your states to stop supplying weapons.
55:07We know that
55:09is an open market for illegal arms
55:12trafficking, for terrorism.
55:15But and that Sudan is in fact the
55:18heart of Africa.
55:22Uh so
55:24uh
55:25we hope that uh this will bring uh
55:27fruits. Thank you.
55:31>> I think the last thing I would say, I
55:33know we're well over time, is peace is a
55:35choice. And it's a choice that needs to
55:38be made. It comes with cost to make that
55:40choice. And we all need to be involved
55:43in making that choice for peace to be
55:45possible in Sudan. Please join me in
55:47thanking our extraordinary panel for
55:49this discussion today.
55:52Thank you, dear.

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